My 13/6/1 For Mod 9

[Impaqt]

AFter going through a few of the Halfling 13/6/1 Builds here in the forum I decided todo a Little tweaking and present my version for Mod 9. I decided to scrap my 18/2 Cleric Monk for this build for a couple reasons...

1, I have too many clerics as it is.. and 2 I miss having a High Dex, Reflex save Rogue. I also feel this character will help Balance out my Character Synergies....

Mechanakill.. Brute Warforged Dual Heavy Pick Wielder, No AC TO speak of.

Randee... Halfling Dual Light Picks Wielder with All kinds of Backstab and High AC.

Yeah, Dual Light Picks..... I really like the Synergy in Pick useage. Good DPS with the Picks, High Crit range with Rapiers for Smiting/Banishing. Plus, SInce most of my damage wil be coming from sneak anyway, why worry about the Base weapon damage and Crits as much?

Thinking about redoing the SKillPoints to see if I can fit Diplo into the build as well. I dont really want togive up the extra points I was able to put into Balance though. Maybe I'll Play with that a bit.

Also need a +3 Int tome to Qualify for CE. But with an 80+ AC Potential even without it, I can wait I think.

Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Male
(1 Monk / 13 Rogue / 6 Ranger)
Hit Points: 400+
20 Heroic Durability
6 L1 Monk
78 L13 Rogue
48 L6 Ranger
120 CON Bonus
10 Dragonic
---
284
20 Minos Legen
30 GFL
45 Shroud HP Item/Radiance Guard
---
379


Spell Points: 300+


BAB: 12/12/17/22
15 BAB
14 Dex Bonus
1 Halfling
5 Weapons
---
+35
-2/-2 TWF
----
+33
4 GH
1 Haste
---
+38
-5 CE
----
+33
5 Divine Power/Madstone
4 Bard Songs
2 Recitation
10 Backstab (Tharnes + ENH)
2 Acrobat Clicky
---
+56 to hit on a Sneak attack? Really? Dual Weilding?

52pts of Damage Avg Sneak Attack(7d6 +8Halfling +12 Rogue +8 Backstab Item/Weapon)

A/C
10 Base
14 Dex
1 Halfling
6 Wisdom
8 Bracers
5 Protection
3 Natrual
5 CE
2 Tempest
1 Dodge
4 Insight
1 Ritual
--
60 ac Easy
2 Ranger Bark
4 Bard Song
1 Haste
2 Sheild Wand
---
69 with Buffs
3 Dodge
---
72 AC
6 Improved uncanny Dodge
2 Acrobat Clicky
---
80 AC
4 Pocket Paladin
---
84 AC




Fortitude/Reflex/Will

4/8/4 L13 Rogue
5/5/2 L6 Ranger
2/2/2 L1 Monk
1/1/1 Halfling
6/14/6 Attributes
5/5/5 Resistance
1/1/1 Ritual
------
24/36/21
4/4/4 GH
-----
28/40/25


Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 16)
{18}Strength 11 +1 Tome +6 Item
{38}Dexterity 19+5 Levels +2 Halfling +3 Rogue +3 Tome +6 Item
{22}Constitution 14 +2 TOme +6 Item
{19}Intelligence 10+3 Tome +6 Item as needed
{22}Wisdom 14+2 Tome +6 Item
{16}Charisma 8 +2 Tome +6 Item


Skills


{49}Bluff 23 Ranks +15 Item +3CHR +2 ROgue Bluff +4GH +2Luck

{55+}Disable Device 23 Ranks +15 Item +4INT +7 Tools +4GH +2 Luck

{35+}Use Magic Device 23 Ranks +3Cartouse +3CHR +4GH +2 Luck

ALso Maxed Out Search and Spot of course, Lots of Spare points into Balance.

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge

Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead

Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon FInesse

Level 4 (Ranger)

Level 5 (Ranger)

Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Feat: (Selected) Mobility

Level 7 (Ranger)

Level 8 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise(Requires +3 Tome, Use DF for +2AC until obtained)

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack

Level 10 (Rogue)

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 13 (Rogue)

Level 14 (Rogue)

Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 16 (Rogue)

Level 17 (Rogue)
Rogue: Crippling Strike

Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Feint

Level 19 (Rogue)

Level 20 (Rogue)
Rogue: Improved Evasion

Enhancement: Ranger Energy Resistence Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Swamp Lore I
Enhancement: Ranger Desert Lore I
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning III
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Halfling Guile II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Trraining II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Way of the Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I
Enhancement: Rogue Balance II
Enhancement: Rogue Bluff I
Enhancement: Rogue Bluff II
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble I
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II

60 ACtion Points
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Halfling Guile IV
Halfling CUnning IV
---
80 Pts

[Original]

Looks good... I am going 12 ranger/6 rouge/ 2 monk.
Tempest II and Thief Acrobat I
I am currently 9/5/2 and is a killing machine... also when theres a trap needed to be disabled I have yet to not find or disable one.
I went with more ranger for resists, full barksin and tempest II.

[Impaqt]

Looks good... I am going 12 ranger/6 rouge/ 2 monk.
Tempest II and Thief Acrobat I
I am currently 9/5/2 and is a killing machine... also when theres a trap needed to be disabled I have yet to not find or disable one.
I went with more ranger for resists, full barksin and tempest II.

Tempest 2 is Incredibly unexciting to me. This guy will be sticking to dual Light weapons and the AC can be replicated with a Wand. Improved Evasion and Crippling strike seem to be a better mix for my guy.

[Gryphton]

I made mine too :D
Going to be 12 rog/6 ranger/2 monk
This is my first real rogue type build, am I missing something by only 12 levels and not 13?
He's level 2 atm 1 rogue then 1 ranger :D

[Original]

With a starting 10 Int I would put a +2 Int Tome there before 2nd Level because it is going to be hard to fill all your skills with a 10 Int. Other than that any halfling rog/rgr/monk will do just fine with correct gear.

[maddmatt70]

I have the same build only very slightly different starting stat distribution. I can attest that he is very powerful. My character does excellent dps, has tanked sulu on hard, is a great soloist, and has great versatility. This is absolutely a firecracker of a character. Next mod this character should be just as good.

[Thanimal]

I made mine too :D
Going to be 12 rog/6 ranger/2 monk
This is my first real rogue type build, am I missing something by only 12 levels and not 13?
He's level 2 atm 1 rogue then 1 ranger :D

You miss Improved Evasion (or else Crippling Strike, but "clearly" that is the higher priority for this type of Rogue).
EDIT: Also miss 1d6 of Sneak Attack.

Doesn't make or break, but does Monk 2 offer something better in this case?

[Impaqt]

I made mine too :D
Going to be 12 rog/6 ranger/2 monk
This is my first real rogue type build, am I missing something by only 12 levels and not 13?
He's level 2 atm 1 rogue then 1 ranger :D

13 is a Very important level for a Rogue IMO...

Extra 1d6 Sneak attack and a Rogue Special Ability.

at 13 you can have Improved Evasion and Crippling Strike. Crippling strike is one of my favorite abilities in the game. I wouldnt build a rogue without it.

The Rogue Special Ability Plus the Sneak attack are more benefitial thana 2nd monk level IMO.

I think a 7th Ranger level would be more beneficial as well even. if only for the self cast 20pt Resists.

[Impaqt]

I have the same build only very slightly different starting stat distribution. I can attest that he is very powerful. My character does excellent dps, has tanked sulu on hard, is a great soloist, and has great versatility. This is absolutely a firecracker of a character. Next mod this character should be just as good.

yeah, I actually spent a lot of time going over your build while tweaking mine.

[Gryphton]

Glad that I asked

Now... I would think that taking the second level of rogue earlier would be beneficial to grab up evasion early on. Is there some reason not to take rogue earlier except to get to the free ITWF faster?

[Impaqt]

Glad that I asked

Now... I would think that taking the second level of rogue earlier would be beneficial to grab up evasion early on. Is there some reason not to take rogue earlier except to get to the free ITWF faster?

The short answer is I dont need it any sooner.

Evasion is quite handy if your doing a lot of traps that are in harms way and facing a lot of casters/elementals throwing fireballs, flamestrikes, and lightning.

Other than a few pesky kobolds, you just dont see a lot of that early in the game. I feel getting Tempest as soon as possible is important for rate of attack and getting that Monk level for the ac is more important than evasion.

I'm considering moving the Monk level down to 4 or 5. It shouldn't hurt my feat progression at all, just gotta play with the numbers a bit.

[Obmi]

is the primary difference between your build and mine on "westside" the second monk level? I took diplo maxed also, but seldom use it...(laziness i suppose):D thanks obmi

[Impaqt]

is the primary difference between your build and mine on "westside" the second monk level? I took diplo maxed also, but seldom use it...(laziness i suppose):D thanks obmi

To be honest, I glanced at the thread, but I'm a very analytical person. the lack of any details and breakdowns in that build hurt my head.

As I stated earlier, I feel a second monk level is very damaging to the build. 2 Evasions dont Make Improved Evasion. 2nd ROgue Special Ability trumps a second Monk specific feat imo as well.

[Obmi]

"damages" the build? or makes it different? sorry to hurt your head....:)

[Cold_Stele]

Think you're definitely right about the 13/6/1 split.

If you drop Wis by 2 though and take Diplomacy you're going to get infinitely more defense (and DPS) than 1 point of AC could ever give you...

[Strakeln]

"damages" the build? or makes it different? sorry to hurt your head....:)Those rogue specialty feats are pretty powerful (2nd one granted at lvl 13).

[Deathseeker]

I think this is one of the really interesting "mod 9" builds. The big question I have about it (and rogues in general) going into mod 9...how will fortification on mobs play a role vs sneak attack damage? Will Turbine use it judiciously, or will we see 75% fortification be a norm for end game red and purple named mobs? To me, that will make this build (and others deriving their DPS from sneak attack) either incredibly fantastic or somewhat frustrating...

I hope they do a good job and have some mobs with fortification, but only some. And hopefully those might be constructs so the "wrack construct" ability could be used to combat it...

The proclivity for blanket immunities though makes me a little nervous.

Other than that though, this is a scary good build and I think right up at the top with the other Mod 9 DPS'ers (Monster, 18/1/1 ranger, 20 fighter TWF, Zeal/Tempest, FB, etc). Of course due to the AC to me this rises above those that dont contain a monk splash, but thats just my opinion of course...

[Gorby]

Perhaps I'm missing something but how are you applying a +19 dex bonus to your AC, attack bonus, saves and skills with a 38 dexterity?

[Impaqt]

Perhaps I'm missing something but how are you applying a +19 dex bonus to your AC, attack bonus, saves and skills with a 38 dexterity?

DOH! ya caught me...

I thought the AC looked a bit high after I worked it out, but completely missed that.

THats also the reason the To Hit got so high....

But I never added +19 to any of my skills....
Didnt even show any Dex skill breakdowns...

[Gratch]

45 Shroud HP Item/Radiance Guard

Guards on a high AC toon are kind of low gain. If you're going to dump dual large into a melee equipment item, I'd go mineral 2 for some slot consolidation. Plus stoneskin >> sunburst.

Radiance weapons otoh...

[Tuney]

A guard might be... but look at this way... if the thing happens to hit him and happens to proc the guard... it isn't going to hit him again hehe.

[Tanka]

I actually had something similar planned in my head, though I was relying on less +3 tomes to do the job for me.

Kinda wanted to see what Thief-Acrobat's 3rd tier is gonna be before rolling it, though.

[Impaqt]

I actually had something similar planned in my head, though I was relying on less +3 tomes to do the job for me.

Kinda wanted to see what Thief-Acrobat's 3rd tier is gonna be before rolling it, though.

As I'm on the verge of buying another account I think this build is worth the gamble on T/A III. There are some PrE's that work well together, I think TA II and Tempest is one of the best combos' You get Attack Speed, Knockdown/Slipepry Surface Immunity, and that nice Acrobat showtime which plays well witht he To Hit and Ac parts of the build.

[Tanka]

As I'm on the verge of buying another account I think this build is worth the gamble on T/A III. There are some PrE's that work well together, I think TA II and Tempest is one of the best combos' You get Attack Speed, Knockdown/Slipepry Surface Immunity, and that nice Acrobat showtime which plays well witht he To Hit and Ac parts of the build.
Agreed. I mean, if it's as lackluster as Assassin3, then I'm fine with splashing 7 levels.

If it's pure awesome though? I'm gonna be a little sad on the inside, depending on how awesome we're talking.

[Denox21]

Maybe its just me but when i put your build into rons character planner, it isnt letting me take spring attack as a monks bonus feat at level 8. Is that right or is something wrong with the planner?

[Monkey_Archer]

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 16)
{18}Strength 11 +1 Tome +6 Item
{38}Dexterity 19+5 Levels +2 Halfling +3 Rogue +3 Tome +6 Item
{22}Constitution 14 +2 TOme +6 Item
{19}Intelligence 10+3 Tome +6 Item as needed
{22}Wisdom 14+2 Tome +6 Item
{16}Charisma 8 +2 Tome +6 Item



Why not:

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 16)
{18}Strength 11 +1 Tome +6 Item
{38}Dexterity 19+5 Levels +2 Halfling +3 Rogue +3 Tome +6 Item
{22}Constitution 14 +2 TOme +6 Item
{19}Intelligence 11+2 Tome +6 Item as needed
{22}Wisdom 13+3 Tome +6 Item
{16}Charisma 8 +2 Tome +6 Item


Then your not waiting so long for CE, and instead are looking for a +3 wisdom tome for +1ac. Would also let you get 20 intel as well if you do find a +3 int tome

[Impaqt]

Theres no problem taking Spring attack as a monk bonus feat at l8. What version of the planer are you using?

[Denox21]

planner 3.00, spring attack is white and not yellow :/

[Hasteclicky]

According to the compendium spring attack is not on the list of available bonus monk feats. If I recall correctly I couldn't take it as 1 on my monk either, been a while though.

[Impaqt]

planner 3.00, spring attack is white and not yellow :/


It is a Monk Special Feat. I'm using 2.96 still. Works fine

[Olympia]

sorta new to this, admittedly...but how important is the mobility/spring attack chain, anyway? seems sorta pricey (2 feats) to gain +4 to hit when you happen to be moving; may you not be better served in the long run by eschewing this chain for WF: piercing and something else (luck of heroes, iron will, two weap defense, etc.)?

[Impaqt]

sorta new to this, admittedly...but how important is the mobility/spring attack chain, anyway? seems sorta pricey (2 feats) to gain +4 to hit when you happen to be moving; may you not be better served in the long run by eschewing this chain for WF: piercing and GWF: piercing to gain +2 to hit all the time?


Dodge, Mobility, and Spring attack are Prereqs for the Tempest Ranger enhancment

[Olympia]

ah....gotcha. knew i was missing something. thx.

[Cap_Man]

What does Thief-Acrobat add to the build?

Was thinking of doing a similar build but without any 'way of the ... ' enhancements.

[Impaqt]

What does Thief-Acrobat add to the build?

Was thinking of doing a similar build but without any 'way of the ... ' enhancements.

Extra Uses of Uncanny Dodge, 1 Min Dex CLicky, and Immunity to Knockdown/Slipery surfaces.

I love Acrobat on my current Rogue.

[Rekker]

Until you put a name on this build it is completely gimp :)

Also, I just recently leveled my Monk and Spring Attack was white, not yellow as a Monk class feat should be :confused:

[Impaqt]

Until you put a name on this build it is completely gimp :)

Also, I just recently leveled my Monk and Spring Attack was white, not yellow as a Monk class feat should be :confused:

Interesting..... Well, I havent leveled this guy yet, but to be safe, I'll swap the feats at level 8 and 9. CE is definatly on the list.

[Thanimal]

Interesting..... Well, I havent leveled this guy yet, but to be safe, I'll swap the feats at level 8 and 9. CE is definatly on the list.

I confirm, although I would spell it "definitely." :) (Hey, you don't make a lotta mistakes, I gotta jump at my chance to correct you!) I just took a Monk level and grabbed CE with it.

[moorewr]

I'm definitely on the same page, although I'm going WoTA/Staff on mine and hoping I don't miss WoTA III.. 13 rogue/6 paladin/1 monk. 13/6/1 is the new top flava!

[Impaqt]

I confirm, although I would spell it "definitely." :) (Hey, you don't make a lotta mistakes, I gotta jump at my chance to correct you!) I just took a Monk level and grabbed CE with it.


Actually, Theres always openings to rib me on Spelling/Typos in my posts. I'm a horrible typer.:eek:

[Delacroix21]

Why 6 ranger over 6 fighter? Just the 10% speed, rams, and multishot?


Tempest requires lame feats, and fighter levels would net you the same damage as rams anyway (+2 wep spec, +1 kensai) also leave you some extra feats and +2 strength from enhancements. Not to mention more HP and haste boost.


Working on a similar build and a big focus of mine has been keeping the HP respectable by raid standards. I am still a tad drawn between 6 fighter or ranger myself, but I am leaning towards fighter at this point, due to the need to boost up HP.


P.S. If they take my suggestion and let Way of the Acrobat 3 let you use your dex modifier for to-hit AND damage with q-staves, I will be VERY happy. =)

You know that would be awesome!

[Impaqt]

Why 6 ranger over 6 fighter? Just the 10% speed, rams, and multishot?


Tempest requires lame feats, and fighter levels would net you the same damage as rams anyway (+2 wep spec, +1 kensai) also leave you some extra feats and +2 strength from enhancements. Not to mention more HP and haste boost.


Working on a similar build and a big focus of mine has been keeping the HP respectable by raid standards. I am still a tad drawn between 6 fighter or ranger myself, but I am leaning towards fighter at this point, due to the need to boost up HP.


P.S. If they take my suggestion and let Way of the Acrobat 3 let you use your dex modifier for to-hit AND damage with q-staves, I will be VERY happy. =)

You know that would be awesome!


Many reasons to not go Fighter...

Haste Boosts.... THe only way to actually gain DPS with a Haste boost is to hit it before you engage in any combat. Hitting the Haste boost during extended fights forces your character out of attack mode for 2-3 seconds. Losing those attacks and gaining speed actually winds up costing you DPS.

I actually like the Feat chain for Tempest. I've used SPring attack on many builds and have always been happy.

More HP"s? I think the build has a solid amount.

Ranger also gives you 2 Favorite Enemies with +4 (Plus ENH) Damage to each one. If DDO Holds true to form, 2 Fav enemies will cover the majority of significant end game threats.

[Olympia]

Many reasons to not go Fighter...

Haste Boosts.... THe only way to actually gain DPS with a Haste boost is to hit it before you engage in any combat. Hitting the Haste boost during extended fights forces your character out of attack mode for 2-3 seconds. Losing those attacks and gaining speed actually winds up costing you DPS.

I actually like the Feat chain for Tempest. I've used SPring attack on many builds and have always been happy.

More HP"s? I think the build has a solid amount.

Ranger also gives you 2 Favorite Enemies with +4 (Plus ENH) Damage to each one. If DDO Holds true to form, 2 Fav enemies will cover the majority of significant end game threats.

i like the extra skill points as well. not critical, obviously, but nice to have those extra 24 points to spread around....

[Thanimal]

Haste Boosts.... THe only way to actually gain DPS with a Haste boost is to hit it before you engage in any combat. Hitting the Haste boost during extended fights forces your character out of attack mode for 2-3 seconds. Losing those attacks and gaining speed actually winds up costing you DPS.


I agree Ranger >> Fighter here overall, but I believe the specific statement above is incorrect (or else I misunderstand). Even if it totally removes you from fighting for 3 seconds (which I think is a huge over-estimate: I'd be surprised it it's longer than 1.5 seconds), AND all of that counts against the timer (i.e. you only get 17 seconds of boosts -- also hugely pessimistic), AND you have a mere 4 levels of Fighter, you're still talking:

3 * 0 + 17 * 1.2 = 20.4

vs.

20 * 1.0 = 20

So even grossly pessimistic assumptions still have you netting just barely ahead, and I think a more realistic guess is 1.5 seconds off / 19 seconds on, which works out to a net gain of a little over +11%. And, that's in addition to the full +20% you can get at the beginning of the battle, as you mentioned.

The sum of Ranger's advantages is enough to pick it, imo, but I think you've slightly over-dissed the FHB.

[EinarMal]

I agree Ranger >> Fighter here overall, but I believe the specific statement above is incorrect (or else I misunderstand). Even if it totally removes you from fighting for 3 seconds (which I think is a huge over-estimate: I'd be surprised it it's longer than 1.5 seconds), AND all of that counts against the timer (i.e. you only get 17 seconds of boosts -- also hugely pessimistic), AND you have a mere 4 levels of Fighter, you're still talking:

3 * 0 + 17 * 1.2 = 20.4

vs.

20 * 1.0 = 20

So even grossly pessimistic assumptions still have you netting just barely ahead, and I think a more realistic guess is 1.5 seconds off / 19 seconds on, which works out to a net gain of a little over +11%. And, that's in addition to the full +20% you can get at the beginning of the battle, as you mentioned.

The sum of Ranger's advantages is enough to pick it, imo, but I think you've slightly over-dissed the FHB.

I agree haste boost is nice but Rogues already get it, so that is no advantage for taking 6 fighter over 6 ranger (you already have a higher level rogue haste boost if you want it).

I actually agree with Impaqt that spring attack is also pretty good for a Rogue who doesn't have the highest to hit in the world to begin with.

Overall Ranger is simply better than Fighter for a 6 level splash with Rogue, and it isn't really that close.

[Thanimal]

Overall Ranger is simply better than Fighter for a 6 level splash with Rogue, and it isn't really that close.

Yep. Does anyone's opinion change if you only want to splash 2 levels of a melee class, so you can hit Rogue 13 at current cap? In this case, Fighter offers the extra feat (beyond TWF), +1 STR, and 4 hit points. Is that better than what Ranger offers for a melee (i.e. not ranging much) Rogue?

Not to derail the thread, but at this point I think Impaqt's build is basically perfected anyhow. And I'm curious about a possible Rogue 13[17]/Fighter 2/Monk 1 direction, focusing even more on sneak attack nastiness. Or would even that make more sense with Ranger 2?

[Impaqt]

Yep. Does anyone's opinion change if you only want to splash 2 levels of a melee class, so you can hit Rogue 13 at current cap? In this case, Fighter offers the extra feat (beyond TWF), +1 STR, and 4 hit points. Is that better than what Ranger offers for a melee (i.e. not ranging much) Rogue?

Not to derail the thread, but at this point I think Impaqt's build is basically perfected anyhow. And I'm curious about a possible Rogue 13[17]/Fighter 2/Monk 1 direction, focusing even more on sneak attack nastiness. Or would even that make more sense with Ranger 2?

You have to weigh what your gaining very carefully when Multiclassing now. At 17 Rogue, was it REALLY worth Splashing that 1 extra level somewhere? You 1 level away from Tier 3 PrE's .... That would drive me nuts. and what Did I gain for it? ONE Feast? +1 Str? ugh. Not a good trade off in my book.

13 is the magic rogue level for me. If you go beyond that, you want 18, Otherwise its simply not worth it.

[EinarMal]

You have to weigh what your gaining very carefully when Multiclassing now. At 17 Rogue, was it REALLY worth Splashing that 1 extra level somewhere? You 1 level away from Tier 3 PrE's .... That would drive me nuts. and what Did I gain for it? ONE Feast? +1 Str? ugh. Not a good trade off in my book.

13 is the magic rogue level for me. If you go beyond that, you want 18, Otherwise its simply not worth it.

Yeah definitely the optimal splits are greatly affected by PrE's now. Unfortunately that makes taking 3 levels far worse than 2 now (which is a shame).

Heck 3 Paladin used to be a great splash for a lot of builds but you barely ever see that anymore.

You are kind of stuck in most cases either going to 12 (Rogues make sense at 13) or going to 18 or 20.

[Thanimal]

Yeah definitely the optimal splits are greatly affected by PrE's now. Unfortunately that makes taking 3 levels far worse than 2 now (which is a shame).

Heck 3 Paladin used to be a great splash for a lot of builds but you barely ever see that anymore.

You are kind of stuck in most cases either going to 12 (Rogues make sense at 13) or going to 18 or 20.

Excellent points, both of you. So the "even more Rogue" direction seems to be 18/1/1? For that Fighter is "obviously" better than Ranger, since Ranger 1 offers almost nothing at all, right? But then maybe 19 Rogue/1 Monk is just better to get the final tier of Sneak Attack? Still, Rogues are a little short of feats. Perhaps 18R/1F/1M remains worth considering? I'm thinking Acrobat path -- on the assassin path it might be obvious to go to 19 for the DC.

[Impaqt]

Dependign on race and what Natrual weapons you have, I would probobobly still go 2 Monk if I was gonna go 2 levels. Extra Saves.... and you stillg et a second feat.

if you need the martial pro, then Fighter is a great choice.

1 Ranger gives ya Bow STR, so if ya plan on usinga bow at all, its nice, as well as the +2 Damage to a fav enemy. Evil Outsuiders the most logical Choice.

[Geonis]

If you hold off till level 10 for the Monk level, then you can take Imp Crit at level 9 (about the time to break out that puncturing Rapier/Short Sword for Gianthold).

[Tanka]

13 is the magic rogue level for me. If you go beyond that, you want 18, Otherwise its simply not worth it.
I'd venture to say 19 is the second magic number.

No, not for the junky "rogue feats" we get, but for the extra 1d6 SA.

[EinarMal]

I think once you go beyond 13 you have two options 18 or 19 Rogue currently.

It really depends on the build at that point. If you need the feat then either Rogue 18/Monk 1/Fighter 1 or Rogue 18/Monk2 are probably the best. I kind of like Rogue 18/Monk 1/Barbarian 1 because personally I think 10% run speed is fun (but anyway).

If you don't need the feat then Rogue 19/Monk 1...

Personally I kind of like Fighter 1/Monk 1 over Monk 2, better weapon selection, toughness enhancement to me is better than the save increase (but it is close probably).

[Deadz]

isn't at lvl 16 you get +4 to dex from lvl ups? (4,8,12,16) not the +5 you have listed?

[Accelerando]

Why 6 ranger over 6 fighter? Just the 10% speed, rams, and multishot?


Tempest requires lame feats, and fighter levels would net you the same damage as rams anyway (+2 wep spec, +1 kensai) also leave you some extra feats and +2 strength from enhancements. Not to mention more HP and haste boost.


Working on a similar build and a big focus of mine has been keeping the HP respectable by raid standards. I am still a tad drawn between 6 fighter or ranger myself, but I am leaning towards fighter at this point, due to the need to boost up HP.


P.S. If they take my suggestion and let Way of the Acrobat 3 let you use your dex modifier for to-hit AND damage with q-staves, I will be VERY happy. =)

You know that would be awesome!

Ak ok. Well there are lots of reasons to go ranger over figther in this type of build. The first and foremost is yes, the 10% attack speed.

Then there are all the free feats you get for being 6 ranger. Namely Bow Strength, Rapid Shot, Many Shot (for ranged feats) Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting (for melee feats), Diehard (excellent for non WF builds), and 2 Favored Enemies.

If you really look at it, 6 levels of ranger gets you 6 feats (one of which is not currently available to other classes) and two favored enemies, while 6 levels of fighter would only get you 4 feats.... and +10 hp from enhancements. It doesn't really match up.

[Impaqt]

I'd venture to say 19 is the second magic number.

No, not for the junky "rogue feats" we get, but for the extra 1d6 SA.

1d6 extra sneak attack can be offset by an effective splash quite easily.

Fighter, another extra Feat and +1 Str
Ranger, Free TWF Feat
Paladin: Divine Grace
Monk: Extra Feat, Extra Saves
Barb: +1 Con, Rage Buffs
egoing 1/1 makes the decision a little harder, but you can still get some nice bonus's vs. 1d6 sneak attack.

[Tanka]

1d6 extra sneak attack can be offset by an effective splash quite easily.

Fighter, another extra Feat and +1 Str
Ranger, Free TWF Feat
Paladin: Divine Grace
Monk: Extra Feat, Extra Saves
Barb: +1 Con, Rage Buffs
egoing 1/1 makes the decision a little harder, but you can still get some nice bonus's vs. 1d6 sneak attack.
It was more of a note of 18vs19 as the second magic number (with 13 being the first). 18 gets you access to T3 PrEs, while 19 nets you an extra 1d6 SA. Splashing 1Mnk at this point is pretty much required for any build that wants AC.

[Impaqt]

It was more of a note of 18vs19 as the second magic number (with 13 being the first). 18 gets you access to T3 PrEs, while 19 nets you an extra 1d6 SA. Splashing 1Mnk at this point is pretty much required for any build that wants AC.


I understand, I was just saying I can think of a lot of reasons to go 18 instead of 19. The +1d6 Sneak atack isnt that important to me. But I build big burly STR based rogues usually :)

[Deadz]

NOw i'msure this was covered..

but why not a 2nd lvl of monk for the +1 ac, the 1 wis, and tier II wind stance if i got it correctly?

[Tanka]

NOw i'msure this was covered..

but why not a 2nd lvl of monk for the +1 ac, the 1 wis, and tier II wind stance if i got it correctly?
T2 wind stance won't show up until Mnk6.

Also; the Wind Stance only grants its benefit if you are fighting unarmed, with kamas or with a quarterstaff, none of which are very good DPS.

[Deadz]

T2 wind stance won't show up until Mnk6.

Also; the Wind Stance only grants its benefit if you are fighting unarmed, with kamas or with a quarterstaff, none of which are very good DPS.

K i'm confused, but i'll post on monk forum as to not derail this thread, missed that.

[eonfreon]

I think once you go beyond 13 you have two options 18 or 19 Rogue currently.

It really depends on the build at that point. If you need the feat then either Rogue 18/Monk 1/Fighter 1 or Rogue 18/Monk2 are probably the best. I kind of like Rogue 18/Monk 1/Barbarian 1 because personally I think 10% run speed is fun (but anyway).

Creating a Rog 18/ Monk 1/ Barbarian 1 would be a pretty neat trick considering Monks have to be Lawful and Barbarians can't be Lawful.
Did you put a lot of points into Diplomacy and Bluff to make this combination work?;)

[EinarMal]

Creating a Rog 18/ Monk 1/ Barbarian 1 would be a pretty neat trick considering Monks have to be Lawful and Barbarians can't be Lawful.
Did you put a lot of points into Diplomacy and Bluff to make this combination work?;)

No but my Bard/Paladin/Monk is pretty sick....

Yeah fine so Barbarian doesn't work with monk sue me...

[eonfreon]

no But My Bard/paladin/monk Is Pretty Sick....

Yeah Fine So Barbarian Doesn't Work With Monk Sue Me...

LOL "Bard/Paladin/Monk"
WEll said sir ;)

[Soldarm]

You have to weigh what your gaining very carefully when Multiclassing now. At 17 Rogue, was it REALLY worth Splashing that 1 extra level somewhere? You 1 level away from Tier 3 PrE's .... That would drive me nuts. and what Did I gain for it? ONE Feast? +1 Str? ugh. Not a good trade off in my book.

13 is the magic rogue level for me. If you go beyond that, you want 18, Otherwise its simply not worth it.

Why not 16 rogue? don't you get an extra rogue feat at 16?

[Impaqt]

Why not 16 rogue? don't you get an extra rogue feat at 16?


yes, but its not a critical feat by any stretch of the imagination... at 13 you have your Evasion, Improved Evasion and Crippling strike. the rest of those special abilitys arent that exciting IMO.

[Tanka]

yes, but its not a critical feat by any stretch of the imagination... at 13 you have your Evasion, Improved Evasion and Crippling strike. the rest of those special abilitys arent that exciting IMO.
Slippery Mind is the only one I'd lament, but it's far from required like IE and CS are.

...Though, IE is sometimes less useful. I know of a rogue or two who opted out of it because their Ref scores were so high anyway, that the chance of a 1 only meant "oh darn I'm taking full damage -- hey, Cleric?"

[Ann_Shadow]

Wow.

It took me 2 days to find this thread/build. Mainly becuase the people that mention it spelled your name Impact. sigh.

I am about to unlock the Drow character. I work nights and almost exclusively solo.

I want to be able to solo a LOT and see most of the game. I am very patient and do not mind sneaking around the entire time. I want to be able to find and disable traps.

I do not mind if a medium dungeon takes me several hours to complete.

I hate to impose, but could you modify your build for a drow? Or would a 28pt Halfling be better than a drow?

I am soooo close to 400 favor. and most say that this is a great/best solo build.

Thank you.

[Impaqt]

Wow.

It took me 2 days to find this thread/build. Mainly becuase the people that mention it spelled your name Impact. sigh.

I am about to unlock the Drow character. I work nights and almost exclusively solo.

I want to be able to solo a LOT and see most of the game. I am very patient and do not mind sneaking around the entire time. I want to be able to find and disable traps.

I do not mind if a medium dungeon takes me several hours to complete.

I hate to impose, but could you modify your build for a drow? Or would a 28pt Halfling be better than a drow?

I am soooo close to 400 favor. and most say that this is a great/best solo build.

Thank you.

Already been done... Sort of.. Take a Look at Leesa 3.0 in my build Index. Drow Str Build.. Little Less ac, quite a bit more pain. :)

[Ann_Shadow]

Ahhh.

Thank you soooo very much.

Not sure if peeps ever express how much anguish this saves them, but being a person who does not have the inclination or skills to know just where to put points or which enchancements to take, something like this makes a big difference.

again Thanks for your work!!!

edit:
I see you have Tumble I and II as enhancements but not as skill you put points into.
I was reading a lot about tumble and how if you can get used to it or have a mouse key that can make tumble a one button affair that it is extremely good to use.

I see the build has Mobility and Spring Attack would tumble work with them or do they obivate Tumble?
Also, If I intend to solo with this build pretty much exclusively, does Diplomacy work?

Again thank you for your input.

[Xyfiel]

Tumble I and II are normally taken to open up acrobat enhancement, they are prerquisites.

Mobility gives +4 to ac when tumbling.

Diplomacy isn't useful solo, unless you have something else there to take the aggro, say a charmed mob or summoned pet. While you could summon stuff with UMD scrolling, most summons are weak, and won't last long with a few mobs beating them constantly.

[Ann_Shadow]

Since my max amount of gold/plat is about 3,000plat I will not be able to buy the +2 tomes for the build.

I suppose I will have to make Wisdom 10 and make Intel 14 in order to take tumble as well as the other skills.

Am I right in thinking that the Wisdom score for this build is only good for a +1 to the Will save?

edit:
I used one of those character builders (had a glitch with Greater Two Weapon Fighting .. it would not let me have it even though I met the preqs.) and this is a difficult build to get your enhancements with. At Level 7 I had 11 unused points ... mainly because many had a requirement of Rogue 4.

Also, I could not max out all the skills I wanted. I understand that spot needs be maxed out since it does not make a "roll" and you either have the necessary number or you don't spot. And you can search a lot or have a wand of detect.

I will try this out and hopefully it will be my main character.

[Impaqt]

Since my max amount of gold/plat is about 3,000plat I will not be able to buy the +2 tomes for the build.

I suppose I will have to make Wisdom 10 and make Intel 14 in order to take tumble as well as the other skills.

Am I right in thinking that the Wisdom score for this build is only good for a +1 to the Will save?

edit:
I used one of those character builders (had a glitch with Greater Two Weapon Fighting .. it would not let me have it even though I met the preqs.) and this is a difficult build to get your enhancements with. At Level 7 I had 11 unused points ... mainly because many had a requirement of Rogue 4.

Also, I could not max out all the skills I wanted. I understand that spot needs be maxed out since it does not make a "roll" and you either have the necessary number or you don't spot. And you can search a lot or have a wand of detect.

I will try this out and hopefully it will be my main character.

The inly tomes that are necessary are +1 Dex and +1 Int. +2's on everything is nice, but not required.

If you used Rons character planner, there probobly wasnt a bug. You missed something.. Probboly the Dex bump to 17 for the GTWF. it needs to be base 17 to take th at. Enhancments dont count.

Shifting the Int and WIsdome around GIve ya more skill points and eliminates the tome req for CE.

Spot doesnt necessarily need to be maxed out. Spotting the trap isnt required. You can always use the "Oops theres a trap Method" to find them, then search out the trap and disable it.

[Ann_Shadow]

I used a base 16 and with the drow modifier that made dex 18. Does the racial modifier count?

I also had a base 12 int and did not use a tome ... that may have been the reason.

[Impaqt]

I used a base 16 and with the drow modifier that made dex 18. Does the racial modifier count?

I also had a base 12 int and did not use a tome ... that may have been the reason.

The Racial Enhancment? Nope.

The only things that count are the score ya start with, Level up Points, and tomes.

[Strakeln]

Since my max amount of gold/plat is about 3,000plat I will not be able to buy the +2 tomes for the build.Just my 2cp...

This is not a build for the underfunded. I have something very similar, it was expensive to raise, in part because it really doesn't start to shine until level 12+ (mine didn't shine until 15th, at which point it went from an average character to a demigod - others might prefer a more gradual ascension).

I'd recommend you do everything you can to get a +2 int tome before the mod hits, this is one of those builds where 6 skill points will make a difference. The rest can be gained as you level. Some will disagree with me on this point.

IMO, these 13/6/1 and 12/6/2 builds are the current kings, and likely will be until they toss some all undead/construct/fortified content at us. Take the time and funding to do it right.

[SableShadow]

IMO, these 13/6/1 and 12/6/2 builds are the current kings, and likely will be until they toss some all undead/construct/fortified content at us.

Well...that's a nuke dropped on everything with a purple icon.

[Ann_Shadow]

The Racial Enhancment? Nope.

The only things that count are the score ya start with, Level up Points, and tomes.

Thanks to some fantastic players on Kyber, I made my 400 (505 [100 favor in one sitting!!! WHOOT])

And I made my drow.

Now I understand what you're talking about. You start with a higher score and if you put 16 as a stat, it is 16, not 18 with the +2.

So, that is where I made my error.

Yes, I'm a noob.


The character I got the faction on is a cleric. I was looking at your 28pt Nullification Cleric and it seemed interesting.

Can you tell me what feats you took on it?

I wonder if my stat allocation will mess it up. I think I went with an 18 wis which probably means the rest of the stats are too low. Think I have a high chrisma, too. That comes from my days of PnP D&D.

[Impaqt]

Thanks to some fantastic players on Kyber, I made my 400 (505 [100 favor in one sitting!!! WHOOT])

And I made my drow.

Now I understand what you're talking about. You start with a higher score and if you put 16 as a stat, it is 16, not 18 with the +2.

So, that is where I made my error.

Yes, I'm a noob.


The character I got the faction on is a cleric. I was looking at your 28pt Nullification Cleric and it seemed interesting.

Can you tell me what feats you took on it?

I wonder if my stat allocation will mess it up. I think I went with an 18 wis which probably means the rest of the stats are too low. Think I have a high chrisma, too. That comes from my days of PnP D&D.

DOnt worry about the 18 vs. 16 in Wisdom. That will help that build. The dex and str are just flavor as well.... That build was my original character as well, PnP Transfer.... The feats are more important to maximimze the Null theme.

Extend, MT, IMT, SF: Necro, GSF: Necro, Quicken, Heighten, and Maximize would be my Feats on that build today.
(Probobly save GSF or Heighten for L18)

[Do'Urden]

Just my 2cp...

This is not a build for the underfunded. I have something very similar, it was expensive to raise, in part because it really doesn't start to shine until level 12+ (mine didn't shine until 15th, at which point it went from an average character to a demigod - others might prefer a more gradual ascension).

I'd recommend you do everything you can to get a +2 int tome before the mod hits, this is one of those builds where 6 skill points will make a difference. The rest can be gained as you level. Some will disagree with me on this point.

IMO, these 13/6/1 and 12/6/2 builds are the current kings, and likely will be until they toss some all undead/construct/fortified content at us. Take the time and funding to do it right.

Sitting on 10 capped toons, I decided to delete my pure Dwarf Barb (Greensteel & all) to roll a 13/6/1 Halfling with similar starting stats as Impaqt suggests. Best decision I've made in awhile. He's only at 3 Rogue / 9 Ranger atm but already demonstrating great potential. I'll confess I'm still learning how to maximize my Rogue playstyle but Brenna's guide has been a great help with that.

I've eaten a +2 tome on every stat (true story). I've consumed several thousand pots (no joke...Haste, Bark, SoF, Heroism, Bull's Strength) leveling him so far and I don't regret a single one. Hagglebards FTW!

[Ann_Shadow]

Sitting on 10 capped toons, I decided to delete my pure Dwarf Barb (Greensteel & all) to roll a 13/6/1 Halfling with similar starting stats as Impaqt suggests. Best decision I've made in awhile. He's only at 3 Rogue / 9 Ranger atm but already demonstrating great potential. I'll confess I'm still learning how to maximize my Rogue playstyle but Brenna's guide has been a great help with that.

I've eaten a +2 tome on every stat (true story). I've consumed several thousand pots (no joke...Haste, Bark, SoF, Heroism, Bull's Strength) leveling him so far and I don't regret a single one. Hagglebards FTW!

Quite the testomonial!!

I am learning the tumble ropes. I have read a lot from people who use tumble to want to learn it. (What better way then from the begining?) I have to learn to go easy on the buttons or I tumble 2 or 3 times in a row and pass up the mob.

Can you post a link to Brenna's rogue guide for me? I can use ALL the help I can get.

I put an extra 2 points into intel because I like sneaking/skills and am extremely poor and need to be able to Haggle.

[Do'Urden]

Can you post a link to Brenna's rogue guide for me? I can use ALL the help I can get.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=124401

Very long read but well worth it as a primer.