Pure Class - Meaningful AC Challenge

[ManinBlaq]

Is it possible - to have a (strength based) pure Fighter, Paladin or Cleric with an AC that is worthwhile?

For example, lets say a Human Paladin has base stats:
Str: 18
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 15

What are his options? Can he achieve an AC that is useful?

[Thriand]

Is it possible - to have a (strength based) pure Fighter, Paladin or Cleric with an AC that is worthwhile?

For example, lets say a Human Paladin has base stats:
Str: 18
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 15

What are his options? Can he achieve an AC that is useful?
Well the answer to the question is yes. But your example is already missing the prereqs needed for combat expertise and dodge which is 6 AC you can't get right off the bat.

[ManinBlaq]

Yea .. that was on purpose.

It just seems like there should be more options than:
Option 1: Dex Character - wear a dress
Option 2: Multiclass Monk
Option 3: Be Dwarven, have Combat Expertise and Dodge

Besides - I'm a PA junkie, and while the paladin isn't predominately a caster I'm really annoyed with the whole CE anticast mechanism.

Aside from that - what is the target 'ideal' AC?

[Lithic]

Well the answer to the question is yes. But your example is already missing the prereqs needed for combat expertise and dodge which is 6 AC you can't get right off the bat.

Remmeber that even without combat expertise you can still use Defensive Fighting, a feat all classes get at BAB +1 IIRC. Its -4 to hit for +2 AC (Wont stack with CE of course)

[valorik]

standard dwarven fighter with no CE, a lot of grinding
stats
18 str
18 con
13 dex- all other base


10 base
1 dodge
15 dt fp
1 armor ritual
9 tower shield
1 shield ritual
5 protection
4 insight
3 chattering ring
2 chaosguardes
6 dex (+3 tome, dwarven armor mastery 2 fighter 3)
57 unbuffed
61 with haste and a barkskin pot

[Jay203]

(Wont stack with CE of course)

oh, they stack alrite, just good luck getting them to both activate at the same time :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[FluffyCalico]

Is it possible - to have a (strength based) pure Fighter, Paladin or Cleric with an AC that is worthwhile?

For example, lets say a Human Paladin has base stats:
Str: 18
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 15

What are his options? Can he achieve an AC that is useful?

So wait you want to build a pure fighter with high AC and start it off with 8 dex and 8 int.
Step 1 reroll
And to answer the question yes you can but intentionally sabatoshing the starting stats is not the way to do it

[valorik]

So wait you want to build a pure fighter with high AC and start it off with 8 dex and 8 int.
Step 1 reroll
And to answer the question yes you can but intentionally sabatoshing the starting stats is not the way to do it

that's a pally, but still there's somethign seriously wrong with putting 18 strength in a pally

[FluffyCalico]

Aside from that - what is the target 'ideal' AC?

With the new mod comming noone knows for sure. But with people hitting 100+ AC already, I would guess in the new mod you want 90+

[ManinBlaq]

standard dwarven fighter with no CE, a lot of grinding
stats
18 str
18 con
13 dex- all other base


10 base
1 dodge
15 dt fp
1 armor ritual
9 tower shield
1 shield ritual
5 protection
4 insight
3 chattering ring
2 chaosguardes
6 dex (+3 tome, dwarven armor mastery 2 fighter 3)
57 unbuffed
61 with haste and a barkskin pot

Tower Shield gives you a maximum +13 AC (looks like you were using a heavy shield though).
Armor Mastery won't affect your tower shield max dex - so you need to grab a Mithral Tower Shield which limits your dex to +3.
Still a net gain of +1 AC. Saves you some AP from Armor Mastery.


that's a pally, but still there's somethign seriously wrong with putting 18 strength in a pally

What's wrong with an 18 Str? His Cha is still pretty respectible, and within acceptable reach of DM III.


With the new mod comming noone knows for sure. But with people hitting 100+ AC already, I would guess in the new mod you want 90+
That definately requires multiclassing and specialized feats. Feat specialization aside, it would be pretty ridiculous to design the game to force you into multiclassing to remain competitive.

[valorik]

Tower Shield gives you a maximum +13 AC (looks like you were using a heavy shield though).
Armor Mastery won't affect your tower shield max dex - so you need to grab a Mithral Tower Shield which limits your dex to +3.
Still a net gain of +1 AC. Saves you some AP from Armor Mastery.



What's wrong with an 18 Str? His Cha is still pretty respectible, and within acceptable reach of DM III.


That definately requires multiclassing and specialized feats. Feat specialization aside, it would be pretty ridiculous to design the game to force you into multiclassing to remain competitive.

His other stats are too low to be a respecatble ac tank. Maybe 18 str for a thf dps pally

Fghters can pick up tower shield mastery, with a mithral tower shield and tower shield mastery three you can still get +6 dex off it, tower shield bonus IS 9 with a +5 tower shield.

[Inspire]

My Paladin has an unbuffed Ac of 63.

Ac:
10 Base
3 Dex
15 Armor
9 Shield
5 Deflection
3 Dodge
5 Misc
6 Feat
5 Insight
2 Ritual
Total(Unbuffed) Ac: 63


My Fighter has an unbuffed Ac of 60.

10Base
15DT Full Plate
5Dex
9Shield
5Protection
3Ring
5Insight
1Feat
5Combat Expertise
2Ritual
Total Unbuffed; 60Ac


Both of them will have 3-5 more Ac in M9 when the PrE's come out.

Builds are in my Signature.

[elraido]

My Paladin has an unbuffed Ac of 63.

Ac:
10 Base
3 Dex
15 Armor
9 Shield
5 Deflection
3 Dodge
5 Misc
6 Feat
5 Insight
2 Ritual
Total(Unbuffed) Ac: 63


My Fighter has an unbuffed Ac of 60.

10Base
15DT Full Plate
5Dex
9Shield
5Protection
3Ring
5Insight
1Feat
5Combat Expertise
2Ritual
Total Unbuffed; 60Ac


Both of them will have 3-5 more Ac in M9 when the PrE's come out.

Builds are in my Signature.
I thought deflection didn't stack with a shield.

[Deathseeker]

With the new mod comming noone knows for sure. But with people hitting 100+ AC already, I would guess in the new mod you want 90+

I see this somewhat differently than Fluffy. While some very specific builds can achieve 100+ in perfect conditions, it is not being used practically everyday by any significant population.

I would suggest that "practical" high end AC is in the high 70's for most AC oriented builds. Yes, with every buff out there they can go higher, but I don't see that as common place, and I dont see too many mobs in current content that hit you very often when you are at 80 ac (Pit fiend elite being an obvious exception).

The next question is really where the devs will "target" most mobs to-hit bonuses in mod 9. As its a d20 system, they can only "target" a range of +/- 10 ac to be relevant. I highly doubt they would target AC's in the 90's as the mid point as it would exclude all but a very select group of builds.

I'd suggest that today (pre-mod 9) the target range is around 55 to 75 for current content. Not saying below 55 is useless (it can save a lot of healing on trash mobs even in the high 40s), but generally the tougher mobs seem to be set higher.

With the advances in AC we know about from the new mod (ie Defender PrE's, more Dex, etc) I'd expect that to escalate something like 10 ac. So at cap, Im expecting to need to be between 65 and 85 to be relevant. Doesnt mean an AC higher than this wont have its uses, but Im thinking this will be the most commonly applicable range.

Just a different opinion...as Fluffy said, no one knows as its mob dependent...but I tend to build around AC in most of my builds, and thats what I find today and what Im planning to.

With that all being said, I'll make sure my monk/ranger build can consistently hit over 100 with most buffs in mod 9...just to be safe :)

[Riorik]

I thought deflection didn't stack with a shield.

That would be incorrect. Deflection == Protection, of course. Not sure where that might have come from actually, unless you're thinking of how a shield might "deflect" an attack and a magical based effect named "deflection".

Is there something in PnP 3.5 about this? (I'm clueless since I was a pre 3.0 player)

[Inspire]

That would be incorrect. Deflection == Protection, of course. Not sure where that might have come from actually, unless you're thinking of how a shield might "deflect" an attack and a magical based effect named "deflection".

Is there something in PnP 3.5 about this? (I'm clueless since I was a pre 3.0 player)

Qft.

Deflection; Ie - Protection +5 Cloak/Ring/Necklace/etc.

[maddmatt70]

Norg twf strength pure fighter with power attack on while twf AC:
AC:
10 = base.
13 = mithral full plate.
7 = dex with dwarven armor mastery 2 and fighter armor mastery 2.
4 = +4 insight bonus.
3 = chattering ring
2 = chaos guard.
5 = deflection bonus
1 = Armor ritual
---------
45

Self Buffed
3 = natural armor pot.
1 = madstone
4 = shield clicky or cookie
1 = haste pot
---------
54

Buffed by others
------
1 = for full barkskin
4 = for IH
4 = for pally aura.
2 = recitation
-------
65

With some feat and enhancement respecc
---------
2 = two weapon defense and improved two weapon defense feats
1 = wearing +6 dex item and picking up fighter or dwarven mastery 3
-----
68

If I get a big enough int tome for CE
---
73..

[Junts]

Is it possible - to have a (strength based) pure Fighter, Paladin or Cleric with an AC that is worthwhile?

For example, lets say a Human Paladin has base stats:
Str: 18
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 15

What are his options? Can he achieve an AC that is useful?


My paladin is str based (17 start, etc); he has the two splash, but thats mostly for offense: dropping 2 offensive feats and being a pure paladin (w/ tower shield prof) would actually produce 1 more ac than he has now (equal at the 20 cap), and his self-buffed ac tops at 67


so, yes, though your stat arrangement is terrible for an ac build.

[Inspire]

Atlantean;

63 - Base
3 Bark
1 Haste
67 - Self
4 Bard
2 Cleric
2 Ranger
75 - Raid
3 Human Versatility
78 - Boost


Huskarl;

60 - Base
4 Madstone
1 Haste
64 - Self
5 Paladin
1 Ranger
4 Bard
2 Cleric
76 - Raid

[ManinBlaq]

His other stats are too low to be a respecatble ac tank. Maybe 18 str for a thf dps pally

Fghters can pick up tower shield mastery, with a mithral tower shield and tower shield mastery three you can still get +6 dex off it, tower shield bonus IS 9 with a +5 tower shield.

I don't have any clue as to what I was thinking. For reason I had it in my head that tower shields were base 8. Thanks for the correction.



My paladin is str based (17 start, etc); he has the two splash, but thats mostly for offense: dropping 2 offensive feats and being a pure paladin (w/ tower shield prof) would actually produce 1 more ac than he has now (equal at the 20 cap), and his self-buffed ac tops at 67


so, yes, though your stat arrangement is terrible for an ac build.

Who said anything about an AC build?

The real question posed, could a meaningful AC be achieved - even with a non-ideal build.
Combat Expertise, Dodge, Dwarven Armor mastery .. they all certainly make it easier to reach a meaningful AC -- but from what I've seen posted, are not absolutely required.