So... Cheapest Melee to Build?

[Grenfell]

Was just curious what other folks thought was the least expensive melee to build and operate.

I love doing builds, as some of you know, but of late, I feel as if every single one I craft requires multiple tier-3 greensteels to really hit their stride, tons of raidloot farming, etc. So I'd like to try something that isn't going to cost 96 larges to equip fully.

I was leaning towards either DPS pally (or base-pally splash), or a DPS monk (going AC route inevitably means Chattering Ring, Insight AC weapon, and so on). Perhaps a THF Barbarian type that only requires one Min-2 weapon?

What do you all think? What is the least expensive melee to build and operate in the long-run?

/gren

[Craggath]

I would say pally or monk is less expensive than THF barbarian, as while they have similar equipment requirements, both pally and monk have powerful self healing and immunities.

[alchilito]

Gren

I would probably go for the THF barb, WF most definitely. Although those repair pots do tend to become expensive after a while... Maybe a dragonmarked halfling ?

[Draclaud]

THF Dwarf Barbarian or Fighter. Axe enhancements, all you need is a Min2 Great Axe and your standand +6 stat items...Let the slaying begin...WF is good too, but if you're going cheap then the pot investment makes Dwarf that much better.

[Impaqt]

Probably a 2HF Paladin.

1 Weapon instead of 2 cuts those expenses inhalf.

Paladin gains the added benefit of less expensive Self healing and lots of DPS via Enhancments, rather than needing the Perfect weapons.

[Impaqt]

THF Dwarf Barbarian or Fighter. Axe enhancements, all you need is a Min2 Great Axe and your standand +6 stat items...Let the slaying begin...WF is good too, but if you're going cheap then the pot investment makes Dwarf that much better.

WHy would buying Oils of Repair be more expensive than buying Potions of Cure?

[Borror0]

THF FB (or fighter if it ends being the best DPS) seems the cheapest to equip:

Only one weapon at the time
No AC gear needed

Well, unless you consider potions to be a problematic cost. If that's the case, go paladin. The problem with going paladin is that they seriously gain from going TEF over THF, whereas the gap between THF and TWF for a FB seems much smaller.

[Cold_Stele]

Yeh I'd say THF WF Barb, my guy was really cheap to equip, just 24 Larges. Hell even Smiting Falchions are cheap now. It's going to cost you in Rage and Repair pots though...

[Mhykke]

If you go pally, you technically don't need any min. II's if devils/demons are your primary enemy. Use the holy sword spell for an ok substitute. TWF'ing khopesh. Just create 2 holysword khopeshes and go to town. All you'd have to really worry about is creating items, and not weapons for him. THF'ing I guess would be cheaper, but the paladin just benefits so much more from TWF'ing.

[Cold_Stele]

Hmmm, Impaqt could be on to something there - THF (WF?) Pally would be cheaper to run long term.

[Angelus_dead]

Probably a 2HF Paladin.
1 Weapon instead of 2 cuts those expenses inhalf.
Yes, but that possibly conflicts with his goal of "hitting stride", whatever that might mean. A THF paladin is so far behind a TWF paladin in effectiveness that it might not even qualify as one of the options.


Paladin gains the added benefit of less expensive Self healing and lots of DPS via Enhancments, rather than needing the Perfect weapons.
Well the paladin benefit for cheapness is casting Holy Sword for raid bosses...

[Angelus_dead]

WHy would buying Oils of Repair be more expensive than buying Potions of Cure?
Because the penalty to divine healing increases your need to self-medicate with potions.

However, that's really irrelevant to the question. When a person is talking about expenses measured in Large Ingredients, the plat for some stacks of potions is invisible to him.

[Cold_Stele]

I guess if you're writing off TWF there's only one PrE where a THF toon's going to live longer than a TWF toon - Frenzied Berserker.

[feynman]

monks: no greensteel handwraps, so you don't need that; no armor or shields; self-healing for fewer potions

sword and board intimidate fighter: only 1 weapon; high AC and shield DR for less healing; CHA for haggle (and probably haggle skill from minimum INT for CE)

elf ranger: longswords are cheap

[Gratch]

I'd say the biggest cost is healing while levelling and then weapons. Two handed weapons are cheaper and at lower levels almost as good dps.

The warforged THF + Barbo FB + Barbo capstones may be an interesting build to have in Mod 9. That said, I'd keep base dex at a level where you could switch to TWF.

In receently levelling a Wfg barbo to 16, I was initially buying tons of pots... but given I wanted to try the hirelings out, I ended up solo'ing a lot of stuff with a caster hireling. Find the ones with haste and most will auto-repair you in defensive mode. It cost me less to solo with hirelings then run in most full groups chugging repair pots. It was sort of a different way to run a lot of quests with a hireling I had always done before in parties. Also... for at least the first 10 levels for some added spice... I only played every even level. (get xp until it caps... grab 2 levels with a few kills in between for that 1 xp).

Had it not been for the warforged THF enhancements and further upcoming Juggernaut announcement... I might have waited on half-orcs to make a barbo.

[Thrudh]

THF barbarian

TWF Paladin using Holy Swords

[fluffi]

I made a 1 barb then wiz to 12 then rest fighter as a melee wiz (THF). I use div power clickies (have about 30 clicks in total) for full BAB. Very cheap as self healing and fun with melee and spells. Hard to get in some raids though as you are not the best fighter or the best wiz (junk DC's).

[Gol]

TWF WF Paladin using Holy Swords

[Junts]

Was just curious what other folks thought was the least expensive melee to build and operate.

I love doing builds, as some of you know, but of late, I feel as if every single one I craft requires multiple tier-3 greensteels to really hit their stride, tons of raidloot farming, etc. So I'd like to try something that isn't going to cost 96 larges to equip fully.

I was leaning towards either DPS pally (or base-pally splash), or a DPS monk (going AC route inevitably means Chattering Ring, Insight AC weapon, and so on). Perhaps a THF Barbarian type that only requires one Min-2 weapon?

What do you all think? What is the least expensive melee to build and operate in the long-run?

/gren


I think there's not one; melee toosn are 4-5 times more expensive and gear dependant than non-melee toons on ddo, and its kind of ********.

dps paladin build might be able to save on holy sword, but its still a build that doesnt truly excel without seven-fingered gloves, dt armors, bobs, and multiple shroud clickies.

you want something cheap, go play a caster for a while.

[Lorichie]

I think there's not one; melee toosn are 4-5 times more expensive and gear dependant than non-melee toons on ddo, and its kind of ********.

dps paladin build might be able to save on holy sword, but its still a build that doesnt truly excel without seven-fingered gloves, dt armors, bobs, and multiple shroud clickies.

you want something cheap, go play a caster for a while.

Agree, but for different reason.

I dont think there's a cheap toon, regardless of its class. Most of us are perfectionists. What makes our toons expensive is the desire to be the best we can, in every aspect, stats, gear, tomes, etc. This same desire is why we grind raids, for tomes/ loot etc. This wont change because we swap classes, it'll just be a different grind than what we did the last toon we leveled up.

fwiw,

R

[Junts]

Agree, but for different reason.

I dont think there's a cheap toon, regardless of its class. Most of us are perfectionists. What makes our toons expensive is the desire to be the best we can, in every aspect, stats, gear, tomes, etc. This same desire is why we grind raids, for tomes/ loot etc. This wont change because we swap classes, it'll just be a different grind than what we did the last toon we leveled up.

fwiw,

R
True but casters have a wierd set of benefits that increases their cheapness due to the fact that they are more concerned with the primary modifiers on gear than the secondary bonus effects; concordant opposition is not very effective for a well-played arcane (who isnt hit enough to get much otu of it, and you need 3 procs to get a spell of sp back), and the guard effects are equally minute; you can, therefore, much more reasonably make items like neg-pos-air, air-air-air, etc both for your +stat weapons and sp/umd and hp accessories; I will try to illustrate this point in this fashion

total large ingred costs of my 3 main toons:

Jaerlach, pally tank: 72 (thank god hes not a twf. orit'd be 96)
Falstian, cc/melee/healing bard: 48
Galaerion, 16 utility sorc: 36

I may, as Idont have that much to do with large ingredeints, make galaerion's hp item a dual shard (radiance or enervation guard or something) but I don't expect it to matter and it would be pure luxury; the more I play him the more I learn that my saves and my hp are not really that important because my best defense is to be moving, strafing and jumping constantly so nothing can hit me.

melee characters, with few exceptions, need to do things like make mineral2 accessories (slot condensation), guard proc accessories, and dual shard weapons (if your shroud weapon isnt min2, rad2 or lit2, you're ****ing yourself over). This causes the huge disparity.

Also, caster raid loot grind consists primarily of vod; ring of thelis is pretty optional, and unless you are an abbot raider, after that, your main priority loot targets are in the reaver. You might want the bobs or gloves (probably the belt, since the glacier gloves are so good and cartouche can get a good sorc to 39 umd), but neither is that essential and there are available and purchasable (with plat) items that are of equal value in the belt slot (eg, the belt of thoughtful remembrance).

similarly, the dt grind is possible (and probably optimal, if you want a dps option on your sorceror) but blue dragonscale is extremely effective and actually makes equipping your toon much, much easier than most of the more esoteric, skiver-related alternatives.

[Ryss]

Monk because everybody thinks you are gimp even before you join the party. You can as well prove em right by having empty pockets :D.

[Ryss]

Agree, but for different reason.

I dont think there's a cheap toon, regardless of its class. Most of us are perfectionists. What makes our toons expensive is the desire to be the best we can, in every aspect, stats, gear, tomes, etc. This same desire is why we grind raids, for tomes/ loot etc. This wont change because we swap classes, it'll just be a different grind than what we did the last toon we leveled up.

fwiw,

R

Wholeheartedly agree. However with some classes you can easily get by without any grind or equipment. Think clerics, sorcs etc.

My cleric doesn't have a single raid root or rare item. I still own the quests I'm running.

[gfunk]

I would say consider a rogue for a cheap melee. They have enough skill points to put some into haggle, they can UMD wands instead of having to chug endless amounts of healing pots, and they can do great damage even with lesser quality weapons.

To cheapen things further you might consider:
-human rogue with high healing amp
-halfling rogue with healing marks (w/ some fighter lvls for feats)
-dwarf rogue (to take advantage of those cheap dwarven axes, the other races will generally want khopeshs and rapiers, which are much more expensive)

[jmonty]

no one has said melee cleric yet? :p

[Grenfell]

Some very interesting points. :) Thanks all!

For clarification, by "expensive" I meant Larges, exotic weapons (WoP's and such) and grinding. Potion costs and such are insignificant in the grand scale of things.

And yes, Junts, casters are infinitely less expensive. Hell, I can run a heal-spec cleric and not need anything really beyond Sup Potency VI item and some Heal scrolls. I don't even need exotic Wisdom boosters if all I'm going to do is sit and heal people.

But the question was the cheapest melee, acknowledging that melees > non-melees in cost. And a melee that can be "competitive" in the endgame.

Right now it's looking like some sort of paladin (or base-paladin), either THF or TWF using Holy Swords, and some random assortment of weapons, or a THF WF Barb (why is WF so much less grinding than a Dwarf/Human/Whatever?).

/gren

[Junts]

Some very interesting points. :) Thanks all!

For clarification, by "expensive" I meant Larges, exotic weapons (WoP's and such) and grinding. Potion costs and such are insignificant in the grand scale of things.

And yes, Junts, casters are infinitely less expensive. Hell, I can run a heal-spec cleric and not need anything really beyond Sup Potency VI item and some Heal scrolls. I don't even need exotic Wisdom boosters if all I'm going to do is sit and heal people.

But the question was the cheapest melee, acknowledging that melees > non-melees in cost. And a melee that can be "competitive" in the endgame.

Right now it's looking like some sort of paladin (or base-paladin), either THF or TWF using Holy Swords, and some random assortment of weapons, or a THF WF Barb (why is WF so much less grinding than a Dwarf/Human/Whatever?).

/gren

WF immunities probably; one less shroud item (no triple neg), starting cha sucks so much there's no reasonable chance of having umd without a rogue splash anyway ..

I think paladins are pretty expensive since they require shroud sp items and tomes and things to function as overly stat dependant characters; ymmv however.

[EinarMal]

WF immunities probably; one less shroud item (no triple neg), starting cha sucks so much there's no reasonable chance of having umd without a rogue splash anyway ..

I think paladins are pretty expensive since they require shroud sp items and tomes and things to function as overly stat dependant characters; ymmv however.

Yeah I got to think just building an old school THF Warforged Barbarian wins hands down. Start with 14 dex and if you ever feel like switching to TWF you can.

I have a feeling we are going to see some other changes done when they rework the combat animations for level 20 that bring THF back into the game (just my optimistic opinion).

You need one shroud weapon and some +6 stat items and that is about it.

[Tanka]

Right now it's looking like some sort of paladin (or base-paladin), either THF or TWF using Holy Swords, and some random assortment of weapons
I'm currently levelling a WF TWF Pally. Fun, lots of damage, and has 3LoHs, so as long as the Cleric isn't incompetent, I can save those for the big fights or "oops" moments where a party member goes incap at an inopportune moment.


or a THF WF Barb (why is WF so much less grinding than a Dwarf/Human/Whatever?).
WF is less grindy because... Uh.

It really isn't. It gains disease/poison/neg level immunity, but that's about it over what other races get (such as Dwarves with their Axe Enhancements). I imagine the bigger reason that WF > * for THF Barb is the Weapon Aptitude Enhancements they get in M9 which further increases splash damage from THF.

Though, some of them may be thinking that DoD is why WF is cheaper to level, but that isn't exactly a common item for most, so that's a moot point.

The cheapest melee to level is almost certainly one with reliable self-healing between fights and Evasion. The best candidate being, of course, either Pal X/Mnk 2 or Pal X/Rog 2. Brb X/Rog 2 is also pretty good, but you do miss out on the Might capstone with that route.

[faldordadink]

no one has said melee cleric yet? :p

thats what I was saying half way throught this post :)

[Draclaud]

WHy would buying Oils of Repair be more expensive than buying Potions of Cure?

At low levels mainly. Clerics are fine healing your Dwarfarian, but tend to balk and the WF version due to the healing penalty. High levels it's no difference.

[EinarMal]

I imagine the bigger reason that WF > * for THF Barb is the Weapon Aptitude Enhancements they get in M9 which further increases splash damage from THF.

Though, some of them may be thinking that DoD is why WF is cheaper to level, but that isn't exactly a common item for most, so that's a moot point.

The cheapest melee to level is almost certainly one with reliable self-healing between fights and Evasion. The best candidate being, of course, either Pal X/Mnk 2 or Pal X/Rog 2. Brb X/Rog 2 is also pretty good, but you do miss out on the Might capstone with that route.

Well Warforged also get PA enhancements as well...

If you are looking at pure cheapness your best bet is dragonmarked halfling, I have two builds with those, one of which I am leveling now going 14 Paladin/4 Rogue/2 Fighter. The other option is to go with a monster variant Fighter 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2 which can also fit in the dragon marks or Fighter 12/Paladin 6/Rogue 2.

Paladin Version:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173995

Fighter Version:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168761

The problem is Gren was talking more about large ingedients so both require a lot of green steel to really work.

Warforged/Dwarf/Human THF Barbarian ftw....cheapest in terms of grind items needed. One weapon, no AC, no spell point items, no hit point items, easy.

[Tanka]

Well Warforged also get PA enhancements as well...
They do, but so does any Barbarian.

[EinarMal]

They do, but so does any Barbarian.

Well yeah but you can take both.

[Tanka]

Well yeah but you can take both.
If you're going FB, there's very little reason to, other than to go beyond the required Barbarian amount.

[EinarMal]

If you're going FB, there's very little reason to, other than to go beyond the required Barbarian amount.

Except to max out your damage? Why wouldn't you trade -1 to hit for +2 to damage when you can hit anyway?

I am not sure what you are talking about...

[Tanka]

Except to max out your damage? Why wouldn't you trade -1 to hit for +2 to damage when you can hit anyway?

I am not sure what you are talking about...
If there are better Enhancements to take than another PA line, then those should be taken first. If there aren't, then obviously another point or two in the PA line is worthwhile. It also will depend on the AC of creatures in the next module.

[EinarMal]

The other option is THF Kensai Fighter (Warforged). DPS should be pretty close to the Barbarian without having to kill yourself.

Again PA enhancements would definitely be a Warforged advantage there.

That also allows you to take the Juggernaut Prc which will count as a Barbarian line (although Kensai requires so many AP that it would be really hard to do).

[EinarMal]

That is actually a really good question. Is a Barbarian FB really better than a Kensai Fighter 20 for a THF build? I bet they are really close on DPS with the Fighter avoiding self damage.

[Tanka]

That is actually a really good question. Is a Barbarian FB really better than a Kensai Fighter 20 for a THF build? I bet they are really close on DPS with the Fighter avoiding self damage.
That'll be hard to know until we:

1) Know how long Power Surge lasts
2) Find out what Juggernaut does

[EinarMal]

It's a shame how grindy this game has become. I kind of laugh when anyone says there is less of a grind to this game than other MMO's. If you want to play a top flight melee build there is a HUGE item grind now.

Pre-shroud this game was much better for casual non lifer players. Most of the best items were found in chests or end rewards to quest chains. Also the power level of the items were much closer.

Shroud crafting totally broke the item system in this game. I really don't understand why they put in those overpowered grind items. I guess it comes down to no content so let's invent something so people stick around. Kind of sad...

[Mhykke]

It's a shame how grindy this game has become. I kind of laugh when anyone says there is less of a grind to this game than other MMO's. If you want to play a top flight melee build there is a HUGE item grind now.

Pre-shroud this game was much better for casual non lifer players. Most of the best items were found in chests or end rewards to quest chains. Also the power level of the items were much closer.

Shroud crafting totally broke the item system in this game. I really don't understand why they put in those overpowered grind items. I guess it comes down to no content so let's invent something so people stick around. Kind of sad...

Only reason I can think of is the devs realized that after the shroud, there'd be a period of time where they wouldn't add many new quests (over a year now with only 6 new quests during that time) in preparation for increasing the level and content by 4 levels. I assume they figured they'd give players a highly replayable, grinding quest to give them something to do until they raised the level cap.

At least that's my take on the shroud (which I think is a very fun quest)

[QuantumFX]

IMHO: Monks. You only need a set of House D vendor fodder +1 Holy handwraps to make it to 12th level.

[Angelus_dead]

Only reason I can think of is the devs realized that after the shroud, there'd be a period of time where they wouldn't add many new quests (over a year now with only 6 new quests during that time)
It might not have been quite as intentional, but you're correct that Shroud saved DDO for a year.

It was literally the single most important quest in 18 months.... which is good that it was there, but bad that the game had to rely on it.

[QuantumFX]

2) Find out what Juggernaut does

I thought everyone knows what that that enhancement does! It allows you to run around screaming in voice chat “Yo weapons cannot harm me! I’m the Juggernaut! B****!”

[sirgog]

My suggestion (as foreshadowed about 20 posts ago) is definitely a THF melee cleric, Clr15/Ftr1 or Clr15/Bbn1 (choose between runspeed/sprint boost and a feat, Ftr level should be taken 10th or later)

Stat point allocation is 18 and all levelups into Str, 14 into Con, 14 into Wis, and the rest anywhere. Recommended race is Dwarf for the extra HP and axe enhancements. Human is a solid choice too.

Critical gear at endgame - Mineral 2 greataxe, standard +6 stat gear, +45 Exceptional HP item (possibly is your Wisdom 6 item too; don't bother with Concordant Opposition, it's not worth the price), some stat damager (I recommend a +5 Wounding D-Axe of Righteousness equipped with a shield, maybe consider a )



Pros:
Only needs 36 larges, and only 6 are scales.
When you are playing a melee role in a party, you will almost never need to use a scroll (at low levels there's so few clerics that you'll usually be best in a healbot role)
Get a dirtcheap Sup Pot 6 item and a shield and you can healbot adequately (although you'll have a lot less SP than typical Clr16s)
Fully self-buffed, you have about 85% of the DPS of a THF Barbarian - whilst at the same time you can throw quickened heals to both yourself and other party members in need.
Unlike other melees, you can throw down a max-emped-quickened Bladebarrier when surrounded by trash mobs.
You have some pretty impressive buffs for both yourself and your party. Mass Protection from Energy is great.

Cons:
Some groups will see the 'cleric' icon and assume you are a healbot. You won't have the SP to live up to their expectations all the time. This happens a lot at low level, less toward endgame.
You are very vulnerable to AoE damage - bad in three of the level 17 quests (Shroud part 4, SoS, Enter Kobold). This is mitigated by your quickened self-healing and Mass Prot Energy.
Learning to heal and fight at the same time takes practice. (You'll get this as you level, however).
As you level, you'll need a lot more wands than most Clerics do, due to your smaller SP pool. Once you have 11 cleric levels this isn't so bad.

[Hadrian]

Perhaps a THF Barbarian type that only requires one Min-2 weapon?


There is no such thing. As a THF barbarian, you will require as many damage guard items as you can fit. You could choose not to do this if you really don't want to, but if we're talking about gearing out a character completely, you can't skip this on a barb.


(why is WF so much less grinding than a Dwarf/Human/Whatever?).

/gren

Is it? You'll want a Docent of Defiance. You won't need to worry about making immunity items, but that just leaves more room for guards.

[D'rin]

I would say the 2 cheapest melee classes would be pally and monk. Here are a couple of suggestions for characters that would work well I think without shroud items.

Dwarven monk with tactics, str based. You can take CE for improved trip and still have an ok AC for solo and easier quest. Power attack with the twf chain for dps. Figure at 20th you have base damage of 2-20. That is the best base damage in the game. Yes the crit modifier sucks and the crit range is bad but with that base it helps some. The tactics once they fix things like weighted hand wraps will be nice for almost instant kills on mobs that can be stunned. You don't have to worry about larges since you can not make GS handwraps anyway.

WF, human or dwarven pally would all be easy choices. THF WF with the new mod will be good dps. Zeal, holy sword and weapon effects on glancing blows could add some nice dps. Self healing with lay of hands. You could go pure pally for the capstone, with knight of the chalice that is 2d6 holy, 4d6 kotc, 1d6 capstone on evil outsiders without shroud weapons. With WF you could also take sovereign host for more damage.

[Return_To_Forever]

twf pally

[rimble]

I've found that Monk has the particularly neat benefit of having a very limited loot list. All I get offered for quest rewards are handwraps, kamas, and outfits. I think this has contributed greatly to me being fortunate enough to pull handwraps of +1 Anarchic Burst of GCB and +? Holy of Grtr Lawful Evil Outsider Bane. Your quest reward lists aren't cluttered with all of those items that are intrinsically useless like Banded Mail, Half-Plate or Bastard Swords (debatable, I know).

Paladin has the bonus of Holy Sword.

[BlackSteel]

Had it not been for the warforged THF enhancements and further upcoming Juggernaut announcement... I might have waited on half-orcs to make a barbo.

bad news, for some reason they're counting jugger. as a barb PRE. so it will lock you out of frenzy B or crit rage. Makes no sense considering WF favored class is fighter

[D'rin]

I've found that Monk has the particularly neat benefit of having a very limited loot list. All I get offered for quest rewards are handwraps, kamas, and outfits. I think this has contributed greatly to me being fortunate enough to pull handwraps of +1 Anarchic Burst of GCB and +? Holy of Grtr Lawful Evil Outsider Bane. Your quest reward lists aren't cluttered with all of those items that are intrinsically useless like Banded Mail, Half-Plate or Bastard Swords (debatable, I know).

Paladin has the bonus of Holy Sword.

Plus you can get some good handwraps off the auction house cheap. Later on when vorpalling is the main way to kill trash mobs then dual vorpal kamas with the increased attack speed of wind stance makes for some good killing.