Bring gauges (D.P.S. Healing) in the game so we know who is doing what.

[gaxpar]

Simple request turbine ,

Please give more numbers as to what is in the party how much dps is done by every member , numbers about how much healing is done in the party , what kinda damage is added by bards buffs or rage on dps ...etc

So for example in the shroud at the end you can see how much healing you received from each cleric how much overhealing was done ,and on the melees, the line of total damage with the added damage from rage in a different color and bard buffs in different color and etc etc to help people understand what classes bring to a party what buffs do in general .

We already have rogues stats and a couple others but just break down the stats to more than kill count so people can understand more and improve their game .

Crowd control stats too since nowadays the only stats important to casters is kill count, and imho it greatly affects their game so many casters think they do great with pk and finger less now than in the good ole pop days ,but still there 70 some spells in the book and most would only use 2 thinking they were the bestest caster.

In other words allow people to clearly see who brings what to the party because right now its all about perception and kill count the people standing next to us is swinging but what is he really doing ya know, because when you look at him all you can tell is that he is swiging .

Even further break the stat down to a more advance level how many hits did your blurr dodge, displacement, how many hp was absorb by the dr song (ironskin chant ) by stoneskin etc etc .

Right now the stats at the end of a quest is the very minimal like a lot we get in this game so its all based on perception not on facts .

Turbine give us numbers since this game is all about numbers and facts to work with instead of perception, perception is subjective and facts and numbers are what they are facts .

Who does what in the party and did it help or no ?How many total swings did the enemy take at ya and how many times did they miss .(for ac builds obviously )

Did that solid fog slow 17 mobs with that one spell ?

You get the picture.

[Roman]

Not convinced it's worth the development time given all the other issues that need addressing. But I think DDO players are more analytical than the typical MMO player and would really get a kick out of having access to detailed metrics.

[Stormanne]

While I would like a few more stats in the XP report for quests, I think there are many things that are far more important for the Devs to do right now...

[rest]

Hey the game is not laggy enough!! Let's add a bunch of stuff in that has to calculated, analyzed and stored! HOORAY MORE LAG!!




And then there is the other argument that people will stop healing/buffing/inviting people whose numbers are not up to par. That's great.

A new person has low numbers because he is new and doesn't have all the best gear so party members see that and decide "Hey this guy sucks. Let's not invite him." Then it becomes a vicious cycle that because he can't get into groups, or even fill his own, he never has a chance to pull outstanding equipment so his numbers never improve and on and on and on. Great idea. :rolleyes:

[Dracolich]

I think the XP window should have group kills not individual and XP.

[bobbryan2]

More Info > Less Info

I will always support more feedback.

[EazyWeazy]

I love this idea and would like to see it.

[Venar]

lag is already bad enough.

[boldarblood]

Could care less what others are doing.

The only thing I care about did I finish the quest as fast as possible with least amount of deaths.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

All that is needed to get what you want is for the devs to add combat log output to a text file - then some enterprising individual would make a webpage where all your party members could upload their text files and it would generate all sorts of fancy reports for each player.

Ideally the combat log text file would create a new one for each instance you enter, this would make it easier to parse. Also, it would be good if the combat log included details on the stances you are in and the metamagics you had enabled, this would allow more detailed analysis.

This would add no lag on the server, require little dev time, and also involve the 'community' in creating websites, something that WoW has a lot of, but DDO has none because there is no scripting language, api, or XML interface.

Garth

[cardmj1]

/not signed



This is just another way to create a chasm between casual and l33ters and you know it. If you want to know which cleric was doing the most healing, check their mana bar or your combat log. It will tell you how much damage you took and who healed you. If you want to know your damage dealt, check your combat log. It is real simple to know what is working for you or not by




... wait for it....







checking your combat log!



And yes, I have heard the argument of ..."well, we just want to know if bringing in that extra sorc is worth the dps loss of a tank..." BS... Most of you on these forums know what is considered ideal in a raid/quest and what is not. If your not sure, try running the quest a few times or wait for someone else to run it, figure it out, and learn from them.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Seriously, get over your uber self. If you really feel the need to show people just how uber you are, solo it. If you can't, then you need to come to the realization that it took a group of people to get the job done. Not just you.

agreed

There is a reason why XP is shared between the group in D&D rules...

If people really want stats for self assessment...then maybe after we get to L20 and devs have some time on their hands they could increase the amount of stats received by each individual for themselves (exportable combat log with a reasonable structure might do it even better than pretty reports). No real need to see everyone's results and that's begging for lag inducing problems.

[maddmatt70]

Could care less what others are doing.

The only thing I care about did I finish the quest as fast as possible with least amount of deaths.

Numbers don't truly speak to the truth. As Okri points out above this is the truth. I personally would modify this statement and say "the only thing I care about is getting through a quest as fast as possible with the capability as a group to do the most difficult quests on the most difficult settings". I don't care about deaths, but deaths almost always slow down a quest. I do care about being able to do the most difficult quests on elite..

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I would like to see more stats....but....
I also don't want to see more discrimination and judging people as "gimped" or "no loads" based on those stats.

If your taking damage and being healed, the cleric is doing his job.
If you see spells landing, the arcane is doing his job.

You don't need stats to see that....just pay attention as you go along.

I'd like to see something like damage taken, spells landed, healing done. SP used maybe. But I'm not sure the ramifications....so it's definately not a priority to me. And should be considered carefully IMO.

[Pyromaniac]

/signed

Though the stats need to be comprehensive to show lots of detail - mobs slowed due to cc, etc etc. That way you can get a true picture of your individual contribution so you can improve your performance over time.

[ThrasherGT]

In a general sense, there is one important question that needs to be asked:

Would the addition of more detailed information create the possibility of "griefing" against players in any way?

I think the answer would be yes.

Would it be a huge problem? Probably not, but anything that creates dissention, even in a small way, would be bad for the game.

[ChaelaAnne]

I disagree that you should be able to see the whole parties info. However, I WOULD like to see some sort of report with how much dps I put out and what not. I have a hard time gauging from the combat log, since it generally scrolls so fast. Just my opinion.

Also, clerics do use their mana for mor then just healing and buffing....

[Turial]

All that is needed to get what you want is for the devs to add combat log output to a text file - then some enterprising individual would make a webpage where all your party members could upload their text files and it would generate all sorts of fancy reports for each player.

Ideally the combat log text file would create a new one for each instance you enter, this would make it easier to parse. Also, it would be good if the combat log included details on the stances you are in and the metamagics you had enabled, this would allow more detailed analysis.

This would add no lag on the server, require little dev time, and also involve the 'community' in creating websites, something that WoW has a lot of, but DDO has none because there is no scripting language, api, or XML interface.

Garth

This is definitely something I have wanted for a long time. The combat log in the game is hard to read through without having it take up a large portion of the screen. The ability to run calculations on real numbers would be invaluable.

[EazyWeazy]

If you want to know which cleric was doing the most healing, check their mana bar or your combat log. It will tell you how much damage you took and who healed you.

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. :p

I knew of a cleric who until just recently realized/found out that he didn't need to run around maximizing all his healing spells. For the last 3 months of running his capped cleric he'd been blowing every last plat he had on mnemonic pots to cover his excessive healing.

After talking to him one day we worked out that he needed some small equipment upgrades and a massive overhaul of his enhancements. Now he can get through a non-lagged shroud run without ever drinking a single pot. This was not something he could do before.

The point is MORE INFO > LESS INFO and could have helped save him some of the expense and trouble he had learning to play his cleric. He was new to the game and just didn't understand.

Just seeing that he had no blue bar at the end of a fight did NOT prove that he "healed more" than someone else and it certainly did not help him learn to be a better cleric/player. :rolleyes:

[weyoun]

Simple request turbine ,

Please give more numbers as to what is in the party how much dps is done by every member , numbers about how much healing is done in the party , what kinda damage is added by bards buffs or rage on dps ...etc

So for example in the shroud at the end you can see how much healing you received from each cleric how much overhealing was done ,and on the melees, the line of total damage with the added damage from rage in a different color and bard buffs in different color and etc etc to help people understand what classes bring to a party what buffs do in general .

We already have rogues stats and a couple others but just break down the stats to more than kill count so people can understand more and improve their game .

Crowd control stats too since nowadays the only stats important to casters is kill count, and imho it greatly affects their game so many casters think they do great with pk and finger less now than in the good ole pop days ,but still there 70 some spells in the book and most would only use 2 thinking they were the bestest caster.

In other words allow people to clearly see who brings what to the party because right now its all about perception and kill count the people standing next to us is swinging but what is he really doing ya know, because when you look at him all you can tell is that he is swiging .

Even further break the stat down to a more advance level how many hits did your blurr dodge, displacement, how many hp was absorb by the dr song (ironskin chant ) by stoneskin etc etc .

Right now the stats at the end of a quest is the very minimal like a lot we get in this game so its all based on perception not on facts .

Turbine give us numbers since this game is all about numbers and facts to work with instead of perception, perception is subjective and facts and numbers are what they are facts .

Who does what in the party and did it help or no ?How many total swings did the enemy take at ya and how many times did they miss .(for ac builds obviously )

Did that solid fog slow 17 mobs with that one spell ?

You get the picture.


Info is key

[bobbryan2]

In a general sense, there is one important question that needs to be asked:

Would the addition of more detailed information create the possibility of "griefing" against players in any way?

I think the answer would be yes.

Would it be a huge problem? Probably not, but anything that creates dissention, even in a small way, would be bad for the game.

That's a terrible way to look at it.

Knowledge can be used in negative ways, it's true. But if that was the only thing to look at, we'd be better off as a human race to lobotomize ourselves.

More info > less info

That's the only way to look at it.

[ThrasherGT]

That's a terrible way to look at it.

Knowledge can be used in negative ways, it's true. But if that was the only thing to look at, we'd be better off as a human race to lobotomize ourselves.

More info > less info

That's the only way to look at it.

As has been mentioned, there are many factors (lag being the most worrisome) that would need to be considered. More doesn't always equal better. I've run into too many "kill count junkies" to think that adding in other stats would be good for DDO. I've been a proponent of removing individual kill count stats, because in the long run, they simply don't matter.

[bobbryan2]

As has been mentioned, there are many factors (lag being the most worrisome) that would need to be considered. More doesn't always equal better. I've run into too many "kill count junkies" to think that adding in other stats would be good for DDO. I've been a proponent of removing individual kill count stats, because in the long run, they simply don't matter.

They do matter to people that know how to use them.

There are always morons. Game design shouldn't be based on the lowest common denominator.

[ThrasherGT]

They do matter to people that know how to use them.

There are always morons. Game design shouldn't be based on the lowest common denominator.

Ah, yes, I've seen how people "use" them. As soon as You get 2 KCJ's in a group, it turns into a zerg fest as they try to out-kill each other. And to Me, that's moronic......

[Lewcipher]

I personally don't need a detailed breakdown. I know when someone goes AFK for 20 mins, or I fall off a ledge and get lost. Most parties realize who is helping and who is pikin'. You can't put a stat on it. Look at all those kill-stealin' rogues ;)

[bobbryan2]

Ah, yes, I've seen how people "use" them. As soon as You get 2 KCJ's in a group, it turns into a zerg fest as they try to out-kill each other. And to Me, that's moronic......

I already said that morons exist... didn't I?

There are plenty of people who use it for self-analysis. But it's very clumsy as a DPS calculator, etc... more precise counters would be welcome for people that would like to assess how they did.

[Maitland]

if you want to lok at your stats check you combat log,then post it so everyone can
see how great you are..i would not suport more info.there is enough already.

[bobbryan2]

if you want to lok at your stats check you combat log,then post it so everyone can
see how great you are..i would not suport more info.there is enough already.

Oh... I guess you haven't tried to read the combat log before. You should try.

[Maitland]

i auctually do look at the combat log from time to time
and it tells me a great deal..not sure if your being sarcastic
or not..more info in this game is something we dont need
imo

[cardmj1]

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. :p

I knew of a cleric who until just recently realized/found out that he didn't need to run around maximizing all his healing spells. For the last 3 months of running his capped cleric he'd been blowing every last plat he had on mnemonic pots to cover his excessive healing.

After talking to him one day we worked out that he needed some small equipment upgrades and a massive overhaul of his enhancements. Now he can get through a non-lagged shroud run without ever drinking a single pot. This was not something he could do before.

The point is MORE INFO > LESS INFO and could have helped save him some of the expense and trouble he had learning to play his cleric. He was new to the game and just didn't understand.

Just seeing that he had no blue bar at the end of a fight did NOT prove that he "healed more" than someone else and it certainly did not help him learn to be a better cleric/player. :rolleyes:

Cleric numbers is the easiest of all classes to gain information on. Stand in a tavern, have a drink and heal yourself. Change equipment as needed, turn on/off empower healing, or whatever you need to do. If you want to know about damage, it's called a pvp room. Ask a buddy to go in with you and do what you need to do. House J, the Open Palm Inn is a great place to have a little training session. Ever wonder what the h3ll the cleric was doing healing people in a tavern for? Think we are just being nice, not really, we are checking our combat log.

[Maitland]

Ah, yes, I've seen how people "use" them. As soon as You get 2 KCJ's in a group, it turns into a zerg fest as they try to out-kill each other. And to Me, that's moronic......

This is what would happen

[Jay203]

Simple request turbine ,

Please give more numbers as to what is in the party how much dps is done by every member , numbers about how much healing is done in the party , what kinda damage is added by bards buffs or rage on dps ...etc

So for example in the shroud at the end you can see how much healing you received from each cleric how much overhealing was done ,and on the melees, the line of total damage with the added damage from rage in a different color and bard buffs in different color and etc etc to help people understand what classes bring to a party what buffs do in general .

We already have rogues stats and a couple others but just break down the stats to more than kill count so people can understand more and improve their game .

Crowd control stats too since nowadays the only stats important to casters is kill count, and imho it greatly affects their game so many casters think they do great with pk and finger less now than in the good ole pop days ,but still there 70 some spells in the book and most would only use 2 thinking they were the bestest caster.

In other words allow people to clearly see who brings what to the party because right now its all about perception and kill count the people standing next to us is swinging but what is he really doing ya know, because when you look at him all you can tell is that he is swiging .

Even further break the stat down to a more advance level how many hits did your blurr dodge, displacement, how many hp was absorb by the dr song (ironskin chant ) by stoneskin etc etc .

Right now the stats at the end of a quest is the very minimal like a lot we get in this game so its all based on perception not on facts .

Turbine give us numbers since this game is all about numbers and facts to work with instead of perception, perception is subjective and facts and numbers are what they are facts .

Who does what in the party and did it help or no ?How many total swings did the enemy take at ya and how many times did they miss .(for ac builds obviously )

Did that solid fog slow 17 mobs with that one spell ?

You get the picture.

ok, too lazy to come up with a detailed post
but to sum up the idea...
NO!

[bobbryan2]

i auctually do look at the combat log from time to time
and it tells me a great deal..not sure if your being sarcastic
or not..more info in this game is something we dont need
imo

The buffer is actually far too small to be meaningful in big fights... Not to mention that it's not currently exportable to another program...

So yes.. it is useless.

If they just helped out and improved the combat log, that might be something, but it still wouldn't tell you about group statistics... like what percentage of party healing you required.

[Ezzee]

Great idea. We need a way to discriminate against people. Why would I want to be in a group and fill it with decent people who I know are going to try and do their best, even though they don't have the greatest gear, and are just playing the game to have fun when I can fill it with a bunch of overbearing idiots who are going to yell at me when someone does something wrong out of either ignorance or accident.

I already know that some of my characters are not allowed into parties because of their build or what they are. And that is fine. Fact of the matter is that I know I am a decent player, who just like everyone else, may do something stupid on occasion. It's life. And the players who know me, know my toons and know exactly what i can bring to the table. They know I'm a competent player who may not have the greatest items in the world.

Maybe, what Turbine should do to please all of the uber elite god like omnipotent supreme unstoppable narcissistic players out there is to create a server which is run similar to survivor. Anyone is allowed to join, but if you get enough votes, your are kicked out permanently. That way all of said players don't have to worry about us gimps and us gimps don't have to worry about said players. Everyone is happy.

Oh, BTW, NOT SIGNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gemmal_trueshaft]

sorry very bad idea imo as bad infact as having a kill count at all ... even worse when the kill counter gives credit for the kill to the last damage done .. do u know how sick i am of seeing people brag of getting the kill on harry .. well shut the hell up u just hit him last the group killed him ..

any body that has played more then a week can tell the dif betwine a person that plays well over a toon thats over laoded with uber gear ..

in short u know who is not listening or helping out in quest we dont need more lag inducing calc's or outputs so a few elitests can justify there snobish behavour..

/rant off

[EazyWeazy]

Ever wonder what the h3ll the cleric was doing healing people in a tavern for? Think we are just being nice, not really, we are checking our combat log.

I know that...you obviously know that...other people...maybe. Either way that is just ONE way that you can find out INFO. Having more detailed stats direct from a log system would be ANOTHER source of INFO. That's the point here. More info helps people make good decisions.

I like to put my clerics in Taverns and heal everyone just for fun sometimes...and I don't watch the numbers when I'm doing it. :p

[gaxpar]

It's not gimp versus non gimmp, its about being able to tell is my transmuting +1 dwarven axe of grtr lawful outsider bane doing better than my +1 holy khopesh of grtr evil outsider bane ?

It's also knowing if i put extended blurr (30 SP)at the beginning of this quest on all melees how many heals (35SP)from the cleric are we saving .If i save just even 3 heals with a blurr its 105 SP for the cleric so its totally worth it now dod that in a raid with 8 melees assuming 2 clerics one caster one bard .

8X105= 840 SP

Youg guys have clerics right do you lead groups do you buy 17 k plat 100 heal scroll stack often ?

Well let me tell you if you realize blurr saves you a stack of heal scroll or even 50 heal scroll (9 k plat ) , i think any decent caster would like as a team player help the cleric save on his hp gold resources .

Buy wand of stoneskin and pop on people all the time in visions and see the reduction in healing , i know there is one but i dont know how much i actually save clerics when i do it .Is the cost of stoneskin wand better then the cost of teh healing they would have needed without it ?

It's not about you and your build only its about team information its a game but its also a battle the better you know your allies and the better you know your enemies guess what the better chances of winning that battle.

If you dont realize in todays society how information is important in every aspect than i dont know what could make you realize it ,why wouldn't information be important in gaming ? It is in a lot of other games .We could also tell how much hp arraetrikos has with seeing total damage ,anyone of you guys can tell us that right ?NO

It's also to know what kind of damage output does those bard songs give me on my total damage, in this quest how much damage did that ironskin chant absorb for that whole quest ?

Displacement is never used in this game i always do it in part 4 of shroud or in visions, in visions on my bard i just stoneskin displace haste sing i almost never fight. Let me tell you clerics appreciate displacements in general, blue barrs are a lot higher when people have displace at all times in there especially on orthons .

I lead parties and raid pretty often and this is all information that could help me improve my strategy .

You know that blurr doesnt work on aerretrikos most people dont because they dont read combat log.Most people check the headlines but a very thin minority reads the whole paper, and a majority just reads sports .Girls read horoscope but hey ... :)

Its about giving more info making it more accessible because when you check combat log in part 5 of shroud you cant even scroll up more that the last 30 seconds with all those mass heals so checking combat for a cleric at the end of a quest is a fallacy .

When the part 5 takes 5 6 minutes and you can only see the last 30 seconds on combat logg , if that youre missing on a lot .

There wouldnt be any debate on monks dps without making einsteinian calculations it would be all there .


This song saves about 500 sp to cleric, blurr saves about that to the cleric solid fog will save about that for the cleric .If you have web here its will save 400 sp if you have disco here it will save than many etc ...

But if all you run is the reaver then i guess you dont need to know because its infinite sp in there so whatever you do it dont matter you get more charges more sp and thats it .


So its about people stats to better do as a team. Most leaders dont need the optimum builds to make a raid or quest happen but it sure is nice to know CONCRETELY what certain spells wil have as an impact on the group ,is it worth it to have an intimitank is it worth it to have a bard etc etc etc .

So for people who reacted saying its an elitist thing, no its not its about improving strategies and understanding the concrete impact of certain spells, songs, weapons and builds on different quest .


I think it was a bit self centered to say oh noes my gimp toon wont be able to hide anymore whenever youre part of an organization in life ( work, sports team, whatever ) people know what individuals contribute to those "teams".And whenever your contribution becomes unnacceptable for the organization you are in , guess what? You're out .
3 things can happen after you get in a new organization repeat the same pattern and get pushed out again ,you can change whatever the problematic was the first time do a lot better , and bring your association to a higher level of success or you can never join an organization again and not improve or change anything since the problem is obviously not you ....

Im sure most raid leaders would agree with that ...

Thank you and please dont bring this to your personnal level its about the team .

[gaxpar]

It could actually help good players in small guilds because people woudl see what spell did what in wich situation , how much damage did they take how much did they deal .

It can go both way here ladies and gents ,it can allow a player that is fairly new to get reckognize to its just value, as it could also make someone who people think is uber look bad , not talking about dps only here ,spells songs healing etc .

Both ways ....

I know that when running visions with many different leaders they ask party you guys heard about this guild or this guy or gal and when no one responds theese people rarely make it in ,not saying its always like that but often .Visions might not be a good example though because its so hard that people dont wanna take chances .Due to some folks limited time of playing for whatever reasons ...People wanna get it done everyone preffers loot to "an experience ",will do better next time yeah right .

[moops]

Personally, that would be too much info for me.

As a cleric I already pretty much know what is helping, who is dishing, who is slacking, and what my heals and damage spells do. . .I also read my combat log when trying new things out.

I think that this would actually make my job harder ( when I pug) as people would prob stop inviting support classes/people to raids and quests because their DPS output was not as uber as others. I mean, you got people kicking people out of hounds because they use a shieild as it is, these stats would make it worse.

I dont' want every quest/raid to become Cookie Cutter--People over analyzing all that stuff would make it even worse than it already is.

How many people think the only way to do VOD is to have a WF Tank and an Intim person? Or that you absolutely have to have a Bard and Intim for for Hound? Or that you have to have a BARD for shroud--I watched a group wait 40 mins for a Bard on a shroud run this weekend, and 35 minutes for a Bard for VOD. Sad. These stats would make this group think even worse.

Perhaps I am just a risk taker, I like making things work with different group make ups, and different classes doing things they don't usually do--Cookie Cutter is boring.

FYI I've done 1 rounder shrouds without a BARD, 1 rounders with 3 Casters, and 5 Min Hounds without a Bard--and many VODS without a WF Tank, Many VODs and Hound with no intim. I even had a VOD with 4 casters and no Bard end at 19 mins the other day. Maybe there is luck involved in this, but I like that mystery.

[baddax]

Ah, yes, I've seen how people "use" them. As soon as You get 2 KCJ's in a group, it turns into a zerg fest as they try to out-kill each other. And to Me, that's moronic......

This is the problem with the "kill count" it makes it end all be all stat. I killed X and you kiled Y so i am better. But what about stats like Damage taken? ie total damage taken by a group broken down into %. So some of these Kill count zergers will actually see how much mana its costing the Uber clerics keeping them up?


Also better classification of character roles ie. symbols in party and info breakdown would be helpful. ie utility tank vs intimitank. intimitnak stat breakdown would be focused on how many successful intimidates he/she had how much DPS he/she absorbed/blocked etc. basicly how well he was doing his job.

CC caster would be how many mobs did i imobilize? incapacitate and or kill? DPS casters would have info based on how much DPS they did to mobs, agro generated # of deaths etc etc.

I understand that some would use this information to discriminate against other players. So tourbine could make the info accessable only to the player. So he would know how he performed and the areas he could improve at. Thus making him a better player(hopefully). If he wanted to download the file and share it with the party he could and if not fine as well also.

This would also encourage players to play within their described party roles and not just go for X number of kills. For example a DPS tank would show less favorable end game stats if they tried to play as an intimitank and vice versa etc etc.

[baddax]

/signed. IF it does not increase lag.

[bobbryan2]

I think you forgot about the team a long time ago.

Teams are made up of individuals, last I checked.

What if someone said that optimal team strategy wasn't based on each party member working towards a common goal... nor that it was based on each party member doing what's best for his or herself, but rather... the optimal scenario was based on party members working both for theirself and for the party's goals?

To say it another way... how is trying to better yourself bad for a team? Aren't teams only a sum of their parts?

Being against feedback is being against the very concept of improving yourself.

[cardmj1]

Teams are made up of individuals, last I checked.

What if someone said that optimal team strategy wasn't based on each party member working towards a common goal... nor that it was based on each party member doing what's best for his or herself, but rather... the optimal scenario was based on party members working both for theirself and for the party's goals?

To say it another way... how is trying to better yourself bad for a team? Aren't teams only a sum of their parts?

Being against feedback is being against the very concept of improving yourself.

What Gax is saying is not productive toward team playing! He is far more interested in what other people are doing and not for the better of himself. I am all for something that will increase my knowledge of toon's build, strengths, and weaknesses. That is a far cry from what Gax has put out there. Some people have suggested an export of the combat log. Now that is something I can get behind because then I would know what I did right and what I can improve on. I don't need to know what Joe the Barbarian and Mike the Rogue did.

[bobbryan2]

What Gax is saying is not productive toward team playing! He is far more interested in what other people are doing and not for the better of himself. I am all for something that will increase my knowledge of toon's build, strengths, and weaknesses. That is a far cry from what Gax has put out there. Some people have suggested an export of the combat log. Now that is something I can get behind because then I would know what I did right and what I can improve on. I don't need to know what Joe the Barbarian and Mike the Rogue did.

But information in a vaccuum isn't as useful as it could be.

In short... it doesn't matter how much DPS I do, unless I know how much DPS Joe and Mike did as well.

Great, I did 12,534 Damage. What useful information does that give me? I still don't have total damage inflicted by party, i don't have my percentage of total damage... I simply have a number.

I can't use that information to get better unless I know the context of the information.

[Maitland]

if you wanted to see how much your cleric is healing 4 why couldnt
you just stand in a tavern and heal ppl.switch item or whatever
while your doing it.get a friend into a tavern and heal/hurt him.
i do it all the time.gives me great info.

[Gunga]

More Info > Less Info

Yep.

[Mirta]

Its about giving more info making it more accessible because when you check combat log in part 5 of shroud you cant even scroll up more that the last 30 seconds with all those mass heals so checking combat for a cleric at the end of a quest is a fallacy .

In part 5 of the shroud?!? By the time you get to part 5, you should already know which cleric was healing and which wasn't. Not only that, it is dang difficult to get through part 4 with only 1 cleric. So both of them were healing somewhere along the way.

Reading comprehension for the win. He's saying clerics can't check their combat logs for their heals to total up the amount of healing they're doing. It has nothing to do with checking to see which cleric is healing you. When you're spamming heals your combat log fills up mighty fast, so there is little chance that your cleric will be able to check the combat log after the raid to total healing numbers.



When the part 5 takes 5 6 minutes and you can only see the last 30 seconds on combat logg , if that youre missing on a lot .

Please. As a melee, you stand there and put on auto-attack. You can't watch your combat log? Have you thought of playing WOW. Honestly.

Actually, no. I can't watch my combat log. Why? Because I can't read at 30,000 words per second. The text flies by so fast there is no way to read it properly.



There wouldnt be any debate on monks dps without making einsteinian calculations it would be all there .

Honey, Einstein you are not...

Reading comprehension for the win yet again. He didn't claim to be. It's just an exaggeration of how long it takes to sit down and accurately figure out how much damage you can theoretically do. It would be much simpler if we just had numbers on the experience page to tell us.

[ChaelaAnne]

I actually have a hard time reading the combat log, and I read fast as a general rule. I think that getting the information on yourself is great. That way, if you feel like sharing, great. If not, great. Would I love to compare the DPS on my THF to my ranged ranger? I sure would! I would also love to compair the damage TAKEN on those two toons. I would love to compare my in fight stats to those clerics that I look up to, to see where they differ, and possibly use that as a guide to get advice on how to play better.

Do I think that my stats should be up for the entire group to see? ABSOLUTLY NOT. This is a gateway to elitism at its worst.

[binnsr]

All that is needed to get what you want is for the devs to add combat log output to a text file - then some enterprising individual would make a webpage where all your party members could upload their text files and it would generate all sorts of fancy reports for each player.

Ideally the combat log text file would create a new one for each instance you enter, this would make it easier to parse. Also, it would be good if the combat log included details on the stances you are in and the metamagics you had enabled, this would allow more detailed analysis.

This would add no lag on the server, require little dev time, and also involve the 'community' in creating websites, something that WoW has a lot of, but DDO has none because there is no scripting language, api, or XML interface.

Garth
For quite a while in beta, there was an option on list when you right-clicked a chat window to enable logging for that window. Sadly, it was never functional, and around the Beta 3.5 release, it got removed.
It's already sending the data to your system so that it can be printed - it should be (relatively) trivial to send the output to a text file as well..
DDHome\tabTitle.characterName.QuestName.dtg.txt (i.e. c:\program files\Turbine\Dungeons and Dragons Online: Stormreach\combat.Narf.TheLostSeekers.03092009-1215.txt)

[djinni69]

lag is already bad enough.

This can all be calculated, summed and all that other jazz on the server side. Transmitted at the end of the quest, just once ... doesn't really add to the lag. Additionally, application servers are generally the easiest to scale, therefore just add some "statistical" servers to handle the load. Honestly, it's not that big a deal (I had to program this kind of stuff for call centers all the time)

[Mirta]

This can all be calculated, summed and all that other jazz on the server side. Transmitted at the end of the quest, just once ... doesn't really add to the lag. Additionally, application servers are generally the easiest to scale, therefore just add some "statistical" servers to handle the load. Honestly, it's not that big a deal (I had to program this kind of stuff for call centers all the time)

Good point. It doesn't need to update instantly. I'd rather see it update once per minute or two. That way we can look at totals at the end of each part of a quest/raid.

[Quikster]

FYI I've done 1 rounder shrouds without a BARD, 1 rounders with 3 Casters, and 5 Min Hounds without a Bard--and many VODS without a WF Tank, Many VODs and Hound with no intim. I even had a VOD with 4 casters and no Bard end at 19 mins the other day. Maybe there is luck involved in this, but I like that mystery.

I don't think these examples help qualify your opinion Moops. In all the times ILve ran with you in these raids, you typically are in a group of 6 to 8 people who run together often, and are good experienced players, BEFORE the lfm goes up (if it does at all)

I always try to join raids I see you're in simply because I know the caliber of people you run with. But for an average pug, party make up becomes more of an issue.

Ex: Joined a shroud pug last night. 3 clr, bard, 2 casters and baggage. Several fist timers and a couple first time with chosen class but knew the raid. 5 rounds in pt 4, the last three done by 3 melees a 2 rog splash clr, a bard, and a caster with no mana. Turns out, these were the only melees with proper weapons, and the only exp clr to begin with. One person actuqlly said to me later the run wasn't that bad and we completed. My thought was, we completed on the efforts and exp of 6. I'm not sure how often you are on runs like this, but I have come to expect them when joinin pugs on the weekends. It amazes me that with the right group we breeze through the shroud in 35 min, and then in another group we spend that long buffing, then struggle the whole time.

I'm not sure a stat gauge would help this any, but I for one would like to see exportable combat logs for my own use. then we can figure whatever we wanted, and gimps can still try to hide :D ( key word......try)

[moops]

I don't think these examples help qualify your opinion Moops. In all the times ILve ran with you in these raids, you typically are in a group of 6 to 8 people who run together often, and are good experienced players, BEFORE the lfm goes up (if it does at all)

I always try to join raids I see you're in simply because I know the caliber of people you run with. But for an average pug, party make up becomes more of an issue.

Ex: Joined a shroud pug last night. 3 clr, bard, 2 casters and baggage. Several fist timers and a couple first time with chosen class but knew the raid. 5 rounds in pt 4, the last three done by 3 melees a 2 rog splash clr, a bard, and a caster with no mana. Turns out, these were the only melees with proper weapons, and the only exp clr to begin with. One person actuqlly said to me later the run wasn't that bad and we completed. My thought was, we completed on the efforts and exp of 6. I'm not sure how often you are on runs like this, but I have come to expect them when joinin pugs on the weekends. It amazes me that with the right group we breeze through the shroud in 35 min, and then in another group we spend that long buffing, then struggle the whole time.

I'm not sure a stat gauge would help this any, but I for one would like to see exportable combat logs for my own use. then we can figure whatever we wanted, and gimps can still try to hide :D ( key word......try)

Well my point was that I take unconventional groups, not cookie cutter groups, and still achieve good results. If everyone had stats on everyone, you would see not only a ton of blacklisting, but also even more extreme Cookie Cutter groups where entire classes would be left off of the roster list since people will always think most DPS first. You have servers out there already kicking tanks who use Shields from parties, Bard without the right songs, and casters who only CC and Buff. This problem would only get worse.

[bobbryan2]

Well my point was that I take unconventional groups, not cookie cutter groups, and still achieve good results. If everyone had stats on everyone, you would see not only a ton of blacklisting, but also even more extreme Cookie Cutter groups where entire classes would be left off of the roster list since people will always think most DPS first. You have servers out there already kicking tanks who use Shields from parties, Bard without the right songs, and casters who only CC and Buff. This problem would only get worse.

People would think DPS first when survivability would also be saved? I don't think so.

More information will make the problem better. Either A) shields aren't that big of a problem and everyone can see that or B) People with shields can see exactly what the problem is.

Those are both good things.

[moops]

People would think DPS first when survivability would also be saved? I don't think so.

More information will make the problem better. Either A) shields aren't that big of a problem and everyone can see that or B) People with shields can see exactly what the problem is.

Those are both good things.

LOl I doubt this. We all know that S & B do not have the highest AC anymore as a norm as well as usually don't have Evasion so take a ton mroe damage in some popular content. . .But If it should come to fruition, I guess we'll see who wins the bet.

But I think that you guys are also forgetting that DDO is in many respects pretty close to D & D, and your not supposed to have all the info. . . .

[HumanJHawkins]

<cut>Please give more numbers as to what is in the party how much dps is done by every member, {etc}<cut>

That would be awesome in some respects, but I am certain that the player base (present company excluded of course! :D) is far too dumb to use the information wisely.

I can just imagine a Shroud run. One cleric burns all of his mana, and possibly even drinks an unnecessary pot because he is quick on the draw with pots instead of telling the other cleric it is his turn. The other Cleric sees that healing from the first cleric is sufficient. But he knows the guy might run out of mana. So he holds off on healing to make sure he will be there when it is needed. But, the run goes really smoothly and finishes with Cleric #2 only needing to throw a few heals total.

Somehow, I suspect 8 out of the 10 other party members would assume cleric #2 was an aweful cleric. Some would put him on their blacklist, etc.

Do you really want people to have to explain after every quest why their numbers are low? Do you really want barbarians to be apologising after quests with "Sorry guys. I still don't have greensteel or madstone boots. My numbers will pick up soon." Better yet, do you want to be that barbarian the next time you reroll?

[coolpenguin410]

I can just imagine a Shroud run. One cleric burns all of his mana, and possibly even drinks an unnecessary pot because he is quick on the draw with pots instead of telling the other cleric it is his turn. The other Cleric sees that healing from the first cleric is sufficient. But he knows the guy might run out of mana. So he holds off on healing to make sure he will be there when it is needed. But, the run goes really smoothly and finishes with Cleric #2 only needing to throw a few heals total.

Somehow, I suspect 8 out of the 10 other party members would assume cleric #2 was an aweful cleric. Some would put him on their blacklist, etc.

Something like this happened to me the other day. I was having an off day on my cleric and was supposed be healing on round 2 in part 5. But the tanks were doing great DPS,the round 1 cleric was doing well on heals and I ended up with 75% of my SP by the end of the quest. I got a few catty remarks from other members of the group...

Anyways, I'm all for more info...as long as it's your info. Getting feedback on myself is all well and good. But sending my info to someone else is a definately not necessary. Yes, most of my characters are gimps. If you want their stats, you can ask. I may or may not give them to you.

Besides, what about the ways a player can contribute that aren't quantifiable? Such as providing direction or planning, etc.?

A character is more than their build. This is one instance where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

In short:
private individual statistics: sure (low priority, though)
public individual statistics: no

[gaxpar]

I only pay 13k for a stack of heal scrolls... thank you Qwijy!


Answer: Well you dont seem to have gotten the part where i ask to not bring it to a personnal level. You have them for 13 k because qwijy buys em for ya ok whatever ,but qwijy dont buy em on 5 servers for all clerics so to the avg cleric out there they are 17-18 k plat
.

If blur is not being handed out, then ask for it. I do and so do many non clerics out there.

Answer :What kind of damaged avoided does blurr represent. in different quests ,you have any idea? No you dont if you do please post em .


Now that next one is funny

Yet again, I have never ran a VOD without seeing stoneskin. (quite some improvisation there maam )

But then this

In other words, you don't have the ability to improvise with the party you have. Your placing your ability to successfully complete a raid on a formula rather than strategy. Boy, is this the wrong game for you.


Answer : Doesnt seem to me like a lot of improvising, if you had it every single time (stoneskin) you ran it it actually sounds like a formula doesnt it ?

Answer : Do what i say not what i do ?



And that is the real reason you want this in game. Who do I blacklist and who do I don't!


Answer :It's about a lot more than that i already know exactly who i do blacklist and who do i dont , i just want to know a lot more than that actually ..


Really? You really want to know what one bard song does for you? I think you fishing for things to back up your argument...


Answer : no im not, im explaining why id like to see what does inspire courage implies concretely , do you know? Please if you do bring me the numbers then i wont ask for them .Whats the % of failure on intim with inspire competence and whats the % of intim failure without it is it worth the one song ?.


Even an extended displacement does not last long enough. It's great for a quick fight, but it's a mana sponge for the long ones.

Answer :This is just an opinion, what kind of damage is mitigated by displacement in visions for example is the cost for the buff > than healing or is it the opposite .The answer to that question would be facts and numbers not your opinion .

Again you have no idea theres no table to reffer too.


In other words, you don't have the ability to improvise with the party you have. Your placing your ability to successfully complete a raid on a formula rather than strategy. Boy, is this the wrong game for you

Answer: nothing to say after you said you have never done visions once (Not Once LOL)without stoneskin, don't sound like improvising too much to me and to most reading im sure ..



Actually, I am a woman who reads the Wall St. Journal and the New York Post Business Section. You are stereotyping, I bet you do that when you are trying to fill your party too! Rogues can't dps and all.... hmmmmm.... I see where this is going.


Answer : Again you bring it to your personnal level i said a majority of people ....Theres a lot more sports illustrated swimsuit edition sold than any other magazine in that month While YOU are reading wall street journal, a lot more people are reading sports illustrated (girl too ) the sales number for that is easy to get if you want facts ill get them for you ..



In part 5 of the shroud?!? By the time you get to part 5, you should already know which cleric was healing and which wasn't. Not only that, it is dang difficult to get through part 4 with only 1 cleric. So both of them were healing somewhere along the way.


Answer : I solo healed shroud about 30 times on 3 different clerics with no other cleric in the party, and sometimes with 2 clerics after the other cleric died from delayed blast fireballs or i just ran in the pool in part 5 and never ran out of mana , or the other cleric never ran out in 5 and told me to cometfall damage the fiend .Seen that often .
.


Please. As a melee, you stand there and put on auto-attack. You can't watch your combat log? Have you thought of playing WOW. Honestly.


Answer: Combat log when fighting with heals and damage intertwined rolls at about 600 words a minute i dont know who will keep up with that even on a melee .Try to read it with voice in a party next shroud run you have and come let us know how that went . Tell your friends to come and let us know how the reading went too im really curious..


Honey, Einstein you are not...

Answer :Wow a personnal attack based on what ? A post ?First english is not my first language ,and this is pretty judgemental from one post on the forums i think you are lacking information to draw that conclusion.Again an opinion and a mean one too ,but let me reassure you no im not einstein and never pretended i was .Again based on no facts just perception, you seem to be pretty confident in your perceptions while not willing to dig for data ,i think i see a pattern here ..


You are repeating yourself using different words, so I guess I will too. You are fishing again.

Answer : I was not repeating myself, i was stating yet another type of information i would like to see, what is the ultimate crowd control spell in coalescence in hound in visions ? Whats the cost versus effectiveness all you can tell right now is that you think solid fog is better than acid fog in visions ,but you dont have any data to back up that assumption its perception ..


Does anyone actually run Reaver anymore?

Answer : You ask that in a manner that you assume that no on does ,because from what i understand you dont run it since you ask it with an arrogant manner , are there still people out there running reaver (like what would be the point of that ).So you answer that one but ill give you a hint , whatever server youre on please open the lfm panel at
ANY given night and see how many lfms for the reaver are posted .I'm sorry that all of us didnt get everything uber from there like you, thats why we still run it and you dont i guess..



Again, I think this is more about you lacking in leadership skills.


Answer : Again assumption based on what? Really another personnal attack with no data or any information at all to back it up. You have not done one quests with me . I have every quest in the game on elite, except for the abbott on like 9 characters and guess what i led most of them so im thinking not too bad for someone with sub parr leading skills .But you seem to be enjoying personnal attacks so ill let you go that way .I have to admit though im kind of tired fo leading .But youre right i might be lacking in leadership skills thats not for me to know ..



I'm also a bit surprised that someone reading the wall street journals and the new york post business section (data mostly ) dont want more data in this game if you want your shares to do better i dont know why you dont wanna see your teammates and teams do better .

Ah thats right i remember you improvise but everytime you ran visions everyone had stoneskin a lot of room for improvising there i see .






I think you forgot about the team a long time ago.

[Ezzee]

I still don't see how this would be of any use.

What exactly do you want to do with the information?

You have all of these raw numbers, so what?

Is it so that now whenever you put together a party you can demand that people have certain things? Like all Wizards must have x spell?

In the lat 19th century and the early 20th century, the Southern states used information breakdowns and knowledge to enact the "poll tax." In essence, the tax took the information they had on money and property which they new certain people didn't have in order to prevent them from voting. While Black and Native American were able to vote according to the 15th Amendment, they were not allowed to vote because of the use of the information and the Southern States saying you must have this in order to vote. It wasn't til almost another 80 years for the Poll Tax to be abolished in order to allow the Black and Native American Population to actually be able to vote in the South.

THe reason I bring up the concept of the Poll Tax is because it is a very comparable system to the exact system you are suggesting. Whether you want to admit it or not, and the South didn't want to admit it, gathering a large amount of information in order to evaluate the situation of another is a way to discriminate and disenfranchise others.

Now, as a previous poster has suggested, as this is suppose to be the equivalent of Dungeons and Dragons in a massive online community, information on other players is stuff that you should not be allowed to have. If another player chooses to inform you of such information, that is there choice, but as a general rule, no player is privy to information on another player without certain other talents that may be needed.

So even outside of the overwhelming evidence that says this is nothing more than a discriminatory tactic, in order to keep DDO pure to it's original roots, it is not something you should be allowed to have.

[bobbryan2]

I still don't see how this would be of any use.

What exactly do you want to do with the information?

You have all of these raw numbers, so what?

Is it so that now whenever you put together a party you can demand that people have certain things? Like all Wizards must have x spell?

In the lat 19th century and the early 20th century, the Southern states used information breakdowns and knowledge to enact the "poll tax." In essence, the tax took the information they had on money and property which they new certain people didn't have in order to prevent them from voting. While Black and Native American were able to vote according to the 15th Amendment, they were not allowed to vote because of the use of the information and the Southern States saying you must have this in order to vote. It wasn't til almost another 80 years for the Poll Tax to be abolished in order to allow the Black and Native American Population to actually be able to vote in the South.

THe reason I bring up the concept of the Poll Tax is because it is a very comparable system to the exact system you are suggesting. Whether you want to admit it or not, and the South didn't want to admit it, gathering a large amount of information in order to evaluate the situation of another is a way to discriminate and disenfranchise others.

Now, as a previous poster has suggested, as this is suppose to be the equivalent of Dungeons and Dragons in a massive online community, information on other players is stuff that you should not be allowed to have. If another player chooses to inform you of such information, that is there choice, but as a general rule, no player is privy to information on another player without certain other talents that may be needed.

So even outside of the overwhelming evidence that says this is nothing more than a discriminatory tactic, in order to keep DDO pure to it's original roots, it is not something you should be allowed to have.

You don't know the history you're quoting. Part of the reason the poll tax was unconstitutional was that it wasn't given fairly. One race was asked harder questions than another race in an attempt to discredit them. It wasn't the poll tax itself which was wrong, it was the fact that it was just a front for discrimination.

Anyways... how in the WORLD would more DPS and healing counters lead to a situation where groups would say, "Wizard, you can't join unless you have this spell."?

Seriously? That doesn't make sense.

What do you think will happen really?

LFM: Only join if you've single-handedly managed to get 21% or more DPS in one of the shroud raids you been on.

[Cendaer]

Simple request turbine ,

Please give more numbers as to what is in the party how much dps is done by every member , numbers about how much healing is done in the party , what kinda damage is added by bards buffs or rage on dps ...etc

So for example in the shroud at the end you can see how much healing you received from each cleric how much overhealing was done ,and on the melees, the line of total damage with the added damage from rage in a different color and bard buffs in different color and etc etc to help people understand what classes bring to a party what buffs do in general .

We already have rogues stats and a couple others but just break down the stats to more than kill count so people can understand more and improve their game .

Crowd control stats too since nowadays the only stats important to casters is kill count, and imho it greatly affects their game so many casters think they do great with pk and finger less now than in the good ole pop days ,but still there 70 some spells in the book and most would only use 2 thinking they were the bestest caster.

In other words allow people to clearly see who brings what to the party because right now its all about perception and kill count the people standing next to us is swinging but what is he really doing ya know, because when you look at him all you can tell is that he is swiging .

Even further break the stat down to a more advance level how many hits did your blurr dodge, displacement, how many hp was absorb by the dr song (ironskin chant ) by stoneskin etc etc .

Right now the stats at the end of a quest is the very minimal like a lot we get in this game so its all based on perception not on facts .

Turbine give us numbers since this game is all about numbers and facts to work with instead of perception, perception is subjective and facts and numbers are what they are facts .

Who does what in the party and did it help or no ?How many total swings did the enemy take at ya and how many times did they miss .(for ac builds obviously )

Did that solid fog slow 17 mobs with that one spell ?

You get the picture.

Firstly, I have to say that I'd rather the developers spend their time on something, anything, else but this. At this point in time, I don't think there's any reason for them to work on calculations based on minutiae such as this.

The only way I would get behind such an idea, is if the data were provided in a window seperated from the Experience Report, and that anyone who opens said window to look at all that minutiae BEFORE the quest is completed would suffer 1d4 negative levels (which could not be removed by any means other than leaving the dungeon and entering a public area), as a punishment for looking at statistics when they should be participating with, and paying attention to the adventuring party.

Perhaps I might find it more palatable if said data were reported for yourself, and yourself only, rather than blanketing everyone; that way if YOU want to know how/what YOU are doing, YOU can see some data on YOURSELF; otherwise, I have yet to see a valid reason for anyone to know such minutiae about anyone else.

The only idea I've seen that I support, is that of having a larger client-side buffer for combat data and/or having a function that would automatically log the combat data to a text file on the client-side computer. If that were in place, then everyone could parse their own data to their heart's content, and have lots and lots of numbers to crunch.

It's easy to feign altruistic intentions, and say you want easy access to someone else's data just because you're only interested in coaching them and offering them advice; but on the flip-side of that, you also shouldn't be telling other people how to play or build their characters. Especially in a game such as this, where we have a LOT of different ways to customize our characters.

If you want to know who helped the party acheive a successful quest completion, then be a part of the party, participate, and pay attention. All that really matters is that everyone had fun, earned some experience points, and looted some chests. So what if the fighter was having an 'off' day, and maybe didn't drop as many monsters as the rogue? Does it really make that much of a difference if the team sticks together until the end and the quest is completed?

[Ezzee]

You don't know the history you're quoting. Part of the reason the poll tax was unconstitutional was that it wasn't given fairly. One race was asked harder questions than another race in an attempt to discredit them. It wasn't the poll tax itself which was wrong, it was the fact that it was just a front for discrimination.

I think that is basically what I said, just in not so many words. And probably over simplified for those who are not scholars of history or political science, of which I am the latter.


Anyways... how in the WORLD would more DPS and healing counters lead to a situation where groups would say, "Wizard, you can't join unless you have this spell."?

Well, I was using Wizards as a hypothetical, but I can see how DPS or Healers could very easily be put into this category of you must X to join X.


Seriously? That doesn't make sense.

It makes plenty of sense. Discrimination is discrimination no matter the reasoning, and as I argued before, like the poll tax, this stinks to me as nothing more than a front for discrimination.


What do you think will happen really?

Discrimination, blacklisting, and all the other types of segregation you want to speak of.


LFM: Only join if you've single-handedly managed to get 21% or more DPS in one of the shroud raids you been on.

Yes, this is something that could quite possibly happen in the hypothetical situation.

[cardmj1]

But information in a vaccuum isn't as useful as it could be.

In short... it doesn't matter how much DPS I do, unless I know how much DPS Joe and Mike did as well.

Great, I did 12,534 Damage. What useful information does that give me? I still don't have total damage inflicted by party, i don't have my percentage of total damage... I simply have a number.

I can't use that information to get better unless I know the context of the information.

Sorry it took so long to reply as I have a life outside of the forums and DDO. With that said, I will attempt to answer all the questions out there directed at me in this one post.

Information in a vaccuum? If this entire thread is about individual improvement, which is what you are proposing, then the info provided by an exported report would allow you to see if you are bypassing dr and if so how much. What weapon is doing more damage be it silver/maldroit/byesk/etc.. How much damage you are taking and what buffs you had on at the time, which in point to others reading this, would allow you to see if a bard song reduced any of the damage received. How much a cleric healed you for and what cleric healed you. How much damage spell X did and to whom (number of mobs included). What mobs failed to save and what you failed to save against. So on and so forth...


From all the posts on this thread, this is the information you are supposedly seeking. But what is actually being requested is what is Mike and Joe doing and is he/she really needed . All this nonsense is going to lead to a formula based style of play instead of the true nature of Dungeons and Dragons: a bunch of people with a well developed imagination gathering in a social setting to strategically complete an objective.

[EazyWeazy]

I've become convinced. The arguments here are quite compelling. I think we should abolish all information gathering techniques that this game currently offers.

Drop the kill count, traps disabled and breakables smashed lists. If found to compare banned kill counts, traps disabled, or breakables smashed a mandatory 30 day game ban should be enforced.

Blackout the clerics' blue bars so that we can't see who is actually using their SP. If a cleric is going to heal from scrolls, that cleric should be "blurred out" for inappropriate content. If found to discuss banned healing statistics a mandatory 30 day game ban should be enforced.

All combat logs should be disabled so that people cannot read their logs and compare them with other people. These bad people could use that information to blacklist and judge. If found to compare banned combat statistics a mandatory 30 day game ban should be enforced.

There should be active DM monitoring on all voice channels in case anyone tries to discuss numbers or compare banned strategies. If found to discuss banned strategies a mandatory 30 day game ban should be enforced.

Most importantly we should have a mandatory 30 day game ban on ANYONE found guilty of attempting to improve their game play.

I would request that a special DM team be devoted to the control and dissemination of all game related data or statistics. Only officially approved information will be releases and only after it has been 'cleaned' by the new DM team.

Why not just make a special server that we can forcefully move anyone to that tries to improve their game play? Wouldn't it be a better game for everyone else?

/moron off

[cardmj1]

I've become convinced. The arguments here are quite compelling. I think we should abolish all information gathering techniques that this game currently offers.

Drop the kill count, traps disabled and breakables smashed lists. If found to compare banned kill counts, traps disabled, or breakables smashed a mandatory 30 day game ban should be enforced.

Blackout the clerics' blue bars so that we can't see who is actually using their SP. If a cleric is going to heal from scrolls, that cleric should be "blurred out" for inappropriate content. If found to discuss banned healing statistics a mandatory 30 day game ban should be enforced.

All combat logs should be disabled so that people cannot read their logs and compare them with other people. These bad people could use that information to blacklist and judge. If found to compare banned combat statistics a mandatory 30 day game ban should be enforced.

There should be active DM monitoring on all voice channels in case anyone tries to discuss numbers or compare banned strategies. If found to discuss banned strategies a mandatory 30 day game ban should be enforced.

Most importantly we should have a mandatory 30 day game ban on ANYONE found guilty of attempting to improve their game play.

I would request that a special DM team be devoted to the control and dissemination of all game related data or statistics. Only officially approved information will be releases and only after it has been 'cleaned' by the new DM team.

Why not just make a special server that we can forcefully move anyone to that tries to improve their game play? Wouldn't it be a better game for everyone else?

/moron off

First, and this is in all honesty.. I love the sarcasm. Brilliant.

Two, I am in no way against anyone trying to improve their game play. I encourage it! What I don't want is exactly what the title of this thread is proposing. I will copy and paste it for you...

Bring gauges (D.P.S. Healing) in the game so we know who is doing what.

It is this very statement of the op that I take issue with. There are too many l33ters out there that will start discriminating even moreso than now against anyone who does not fulfill a forumla. It is that simple. This is a game and what the op is stating in the title of this thread is blatant in context for what he intends to do with the information. He has already stated that he has a black list, how many others are going to do the same.

This will only lead people to stop thinking strategically and having fun solving puzzles (because in essence, every mob/boss/trap/etc. is a puzzle until you have figured it out). This advertised information will not only take all the fun out of the game but create cookie cutter builds/rerolls. Where fun is there in that?

We play this game instead of WOW because we want to use our intelligence and not some point-click-report bot quest. I want to see how can I accomplish this quest with a wf cleric/rogue/barbarian, a ranger/sorc, a pure monk, a haggle bard "that is just trying to level up enough to become another bank toon", a s&b fighter using sickles only, and pure "healbot" cleric. A challenge, maybe. But in what they are proposing, it won't even be a possibility because no one will create all these wonderfully diverse toons. Instead they will all be twf dwarf rangers/fighters, warchanting bards, "healbot" clerics, "fad of the month" specced sorcs, and twf wf barbies.

[Uska]

Again no and I want to kill counter turned to killed by party no by who

[Uska]

I think the XP window should have group kills not individual and XP.

bingo

[Uska]

More Info > Less Info

I will always support more feedback.

and I think such here we could more trouble then not

[Uska]

That's a terrible way to look at it.

Knowledge can be used in negative ways, it's true. But if that was the only thing to look at, we'd be better off as a human race to lobotomize ourselves.

More info > less info

That's the only way to look at it.

Wrong more isnt always better thats tunnel vision

[Uska]

They do matter to people that know how to use them.

There are always morons. Game design shouldn't be based on the lowest common denominator.

If it could cause a problem why add it just because of a few who think its important when most dont care about it.

[bobbryan2]

Sorry it took so long to reply as I have a life outside of the forums and DDO. With that said, I will attempt to answer all the questions out there directed at me in this one post.

Information in a vaccuum? If this entire thread is about individual improvement, which is what you are proposing, then the info provided by an exported report would allow you to see if you are bypassing dr and if so how much. What weapon is doing more damage be it silver/maldroit/byesk/etc.. How much damage you are taking and what buffs you had on at the time, which in point to others reading this, would allow you to see if a bard song reduced any of the damage received. How much a cleric healed you for and what cleric healed you. How much damage spell X did and to whom (number of mobs included). What mobs failed to save and what you failed to save against. So on and so forth...


From all the posts on this thread, this is the information you are supposedly seeking. But what is actually being requested is what is Mike and Joe doing and is he/she really needed . All this nonsense is going to lead to a formula based style of play instead of the true nature of Dungeons and Dragons: a bunch of people with a well developed imagination gathering in a social setting to strategically complete an objective.

Ok... let's look at your first paragraph. A DPS calculator wouldn't help you know if you're bypassing DR.. you already know that by the color of the numbers. It 'would' tell which is better between a weapon that bypasses DR and one that doesn't... such as in the case of lightning strike vs transmuting.

Spells you saved against and mobs that saved against you are already known. These and other things you spell out simply tell me that you don't understand the actual benefits of more counters.

In short... I already know which weapon does more damage, whether lightning strike or mineral II. It's complex, and involves math, but I can figure it out.

What I can't figure out, is whether or not clerics are better off spending spell points on buffing or healing. Which buffs are worth the SP cost, and which are a waste of SP. You say this will lead to a formulaic way of playing the game... which... ok, I can buy that argument. But then you go on to say that D&D is about strategy and group dynamics... How in the world can you have strategy without feedback?

Make no mistake. We have feedback now... otherwise we'd have no strategy at all. If we had no way of determining which weapon was better, or which spell worked, or which monsters should die first... there would literally be no strategy at all. Strategy is inherently based on knowledge, and knowledge is based on feedback.

You can't be for strategy and against knowledge... it just doesn't work.

[bobbryan2]

yeah we read do you? and see what our reasons are for not liking this idea the lag and how people would use it against others and no matter what you say the ones who care the most about this useless info would do just that.

No matter what you say, the people that care most about this useful info wouldn't do that. I can make ridiculous, unfounded statements too.

The lag argument is silly. Do you actually thinking tracking barrels increases lag?

I will fully admit that there is middle ground here. Let's look at the two extremes. On the one side we have the "no feedback" extreme.

DM: "You might be being attacked."
Player: "By what?"
DM: "..."
Player: "Can you describe it?"
DM: "..."
Player: "I swing my sword"
DM: *rolls dice behind cardboard box*
Player: "Should I swing damage? Did I hit?"
DM: "Sure... why don't you roll for damage, you mighta hit.. no wait, I'll roll"
DM: *rolls dice*
etc

Then there's

DM: "A kobold is attacking you."
Player: "What CR?"
DM: "A beefy one.... CR 3"
Player: "What weapon would do optimal damage?"
DM: "That one would do 217 Damage per second, I'd use that, and only take shield of faith, prayer and recitation, the other buffs wouldn't be efficient."
Wizard: "I cast magic missile"
DM: "No you don't, Otilukes is better for this situation... plus you'll be resting right after this so you can go ahead and blow all your SP. In fact... you notice that if you stand over 35 feet to the SW on that rock, the kobold will go unresponsive."
DM: "Also.. beware of the trap on his treasure chest, and make note that there is a secret door with two more traps beyond that. And I'll also tell you there's an NPC that'll just port you to the final boss if you pay 100 GP if you want to go do that.

There's middle ground between a DM that says too much, and a DM that says too little.

You could make the exact same arguments about griefing, etc with ANY feedback you get. These types of arguments aren't helpful to the DEGREE of information. Why would DPS cause any more or less griefing than amount of rezzes or amount healed? It wouldn't.

If you're against these ideas... you have to first accept that a certain amount of feedback is good. If you're still against this specific feedback.. you should explain why THIS feedback is bad. In this case, it's not actually damaging the environment or mystical feel of D&D, because you could calculate this stuff yourself given an export.

[bobbryan2]

Wrong more isnt always better thats tunnel vision

No... being against DPS counters is tunnel vision.

Wooooo, persuasive.

[cardmj1]

Ok... let's look at your first paragraph. A DPS calculator wouldn't help you know if you're bypassing DR.. you already know that by the color of the numbers. It 'would' tell which is better between a weapon that bypasses DR and one that doesn't... such as in the case of lightning strike vs transmuting.

Spells you saved against and mobs that saved against you are already known. These and other things you spell out simply tell me that you don't understand the actual benefits of more counters.

In short... I already know which weapon does more damage, whether lightning strike or mineral II. It's complex, and involves math, but I can figure it out.

What I can't figure out, is whether or not clerics are better off spending spell points on buffing or healing. Which buffs are worth the SP cost, and which are a waste of SP. You say this will lead to a formulaic way of playing the game... which... ok, I can buy that argument. But then you go on to say that D&D is about strategy and group dynamics... How in the world can you have strategy without feedback?

Make no mistake. We have feedback now... otherwise we'd have no strategy at all. If we had no way of determining which weapon was better, or which spell worked, or which monsters should die first... there would literally be no strategy at all. Strategy is inherently based on knowledge, and knowledge is based on feedback.

You can't be for strategy and against knowledge... it just doesn't work.

I didn't say I was against knowledge. I said I was against knowledge advertised. Clerics who know their toons also know what buffs work and don't work. Now granted, part 3 of the shroud buffing for part 4, clerics have a fairly unique position of being able to throw any buff they have in there arsenal because they have a shrine and a pool to replenish mana from. It is not often that we have this chance to do so and often from sheer "giddiness" we will cast poison neutralization on a wf. But when it comes to healing and mana preservation, we know what works and what doesn't just as a melee knows what weapon to use in his/her arsenal. We also know that carrying a wand of remove disease is alot more efficient mana wise than using our mana. This is knowledge that a cleric learns as he/she levels up.

My question to you is what knowledge are looking to glean from this advertised report that is so extraordinary that it must be available to everyone in the raid/party even with the understanding of issues that could possibly create such rampant discrimination servers wide?

[weyoun]

You sure have stirred the fear pot haven't you? It would be terrible if people actually had data to demonstrate that they are gimped and needed to reroll/respect. OMG, that would be the end of DDO. The END I say.

Seriously folks, this is totally hypothetical so there is no need to expose yourselves as noobs and pile-ons by arguing against more information. If you change your posts now, noone will know. Hurry, before someone looks or writes your alts down.

[cardmj1]

You sure have stirred the fear pot haven't you? It would be terrible if people actually had data to demonstrate that they are gimped and needed to reroll/respect. OMG, that would be the end of DDO. The END I say.

Seriously folks, this is totally hypothetical so there is no need to expose yourselves as noobs and pile-ons by arguing against more information. If you change your posts now, noone will know. Hurry, before someone looks or writes your alts down.

I stand by statements and anyone who has ran with me knows that my clerics are solid builds. I am more concerned with new players and casual gamers that do not have a full set of +2 tomes, hand me down gear from beta, a couple hundred million plat on every toon, 3+ shroud items, and every raid gear known in the game. It is these players that will be hurt by this type of gauging.

[Raithe]

I used to be in favor of abolishing individual statistics and creating a larger set of group-based statistics. That was back before the game went to H-E-double-hockey-sticks in a handbasket.

Currently I'm in favor of any sort of statistics improvement. Individual, group, healing, DPS, spell point efficiency, whatever. There is very limited appeal to this game (I used to think there was going to be more), and being able to compare and refine strategies is really the only style of play worth spitting on. Grinding for gear so that you can grind for gear some more just doesn't provide the amount of fun that it suggests (/sarcasm).

As for the abuse of statistics, that ship has sailed. I find it hard to believe that discrimination and obtuse thinking could be any worse than it is right now. Whether statistics improve or not, DDO will likely be stuck with a small playerbase that has nearly every player branded by playstyle. Those who get along with each other will, but I see little crossing of camp lines in DDO's future. The worst that could happen is that someone who actually cares about statistics gets embarrassed, and I personally wouldn't be particularly sympathetic to their plight.

[cardmj1]

I used to be in favor of abolishing individual statistics and creating a larger set of group-based statistics. That was back before the game went to H-E-double-hockey-sticks in a handbasket.

Currently I'm in favor of any sort of statistics improvement. Individual, group, healing, DPS, spell point efficiency, whatever. There is very limited appeal to this game (I used to think there was going to be more), and being able to compare and refine strategies is really the only style of play worth spitting on. Grinding for gear so that you can grind for gear some more just doesn't provide the amount of fun that it suggests (/sarcasm).

As for the abuse of statistics, that ship has sailed. I find it hard to believe that discrimination and obtuse thinking could be any worse than it is right now. Whether statistics improve or not, DDO will likely be stuck with a small playerbase that has nearly every player branded by playstyle. Those who get along with each other will, but I see little crossing of camp lines in DDO's future. The worst that could happen is that someone who actually cares about statistics gets embarrassed, and I personally wouldn't be particularly sympathetic to their plight.

I really do hope you are wrong with this opinion, but I fear that at some point if things do not change, your opinion may very well become truth. But I really don't think we have gotten that far as of yet and would like to see DDO climb to level of appreciation (and player base) that it has the potential to still become.

As for the embarrassment factor, I don't think we should even allow that to become issue. Because if such gauging, as the op is requesting, comes to realization in any advertised form, there will be a mass exodus of players from this game and not because of embarrassment. It will be because the game will have lost the spirit of exploration and discovery that keeps players coming back to the game and new players discovering toon creation/builds that will no longer be acceptable by those veteran players that stayed.

[gaxpar]

Cardmj i answered every specific comment you had to my previous post, i invite you to read them, i know you read the wall street journal and all, so most of the answers should be easy to understand since im obviously not einstein and you must be real smart because we all know that whoever reads the wall street journal is smart.


More info is better than less info, maybe i should have formulated the title what does what, but i specifically said weapons cc spells healing dps songs i tried to cover every aspect i could think of .

I totally understand where you come from though cardmj1, but in my opinion the benefits from having more information would greatly outweight the cons .It goes a lot farther than dps .

As of now we dont know what strenght the orthons or any stats of any mobs in the game, is it normal to not even know hp ?Theres so many examples its sad take any consol game and youll know every singles monster hp and in pretty much any other online games .

As far as Uska d'orien 5 post with on sentence and one with 2 sentences, most people know how you operate on the forums, and then report, im not biting. I'd rather discuss with cardmj that actualy had substance to her arguments (even though she took a couple jabs at me wich i consider funny and ok) wich you obviously lack greatly for 6 post in a row ,what exactly have you said so far ? So you are now squelched :) Thank you for your enormous contribution to this thread you are enlightning and full of information to share we can all see that .

Nothing but you posted 6 times in a row pretty sad isnt it .

Just find a game manual for this game the cap is at 10, isnt it pathetic? Find any info on the forums mostly given by players the company has a resposibilty towards his player base to give info and we know turbine has never be too great on communicating .

Anyway i said my piece i think as a whole we could all benefit .And by the by i have gimped toons too , but the first thing i do when i join a party is tell em hey this guy is low dps, hey this character this, i tell em exactly what they get with my toons and most on thelanis could attest to that ,but yo know what how many times do you hear in party guys im new or guys this toon is low dps if youd rather take a high dps no prob ill dropp ?

Also guys feel free to put your character in your sigs so people know who you are and can determine by posts if they would feel cumfortable with your playstyle in game or not . Thats why mine are there because people can tell from my opinions, (wich im not ashamed of ) if they think we would have a good time playing together .

With love gax :)

[weyoun]

As far as Uska d'orien 5 post with on sentence and one with 2 sentences, most people know how you operate on the forums, and then report, im not biting. I'd rather discuss with cardmj that actualy had substance to her arguments (even though she took a couple jabs at me wich i consider funny and ok) wich you obviously lack greatly for 6 post in a row ,what exactly have you said so far ? So you are now squelched :) Thank you for your enormous contribution to this thread you are enlightning and full of information to share we can all see that .

Nothing but you posted 6 times in a row pretty sad isnt it .


lol




And by the by i have gimped toons too , but the first thing i do when i join a party is tell em hey this guy is low dps, hey this character this, i tell em exactly what they get with my toons and most on thelanis could attest to that ,but yo know what how many times do you hear in party guys im new or guys this toon is low dps if youd rather take a high dps no prob ill dropp ?

With love gax :)

Gaxpar does let you know exactly what you are getting when he joins- he always has. That said I would rather take one of his gimps than a pug because he is a great player and a great voice to have in the party channel. Gax is also not afraid to reroll an obsolete character and has done so if they are no longer competitive. Gax also tells you exactly how you messsed up when you did. Some folks can handle that, some can't. The guy has integrity so the ad hominems are woefully misplaced.

[cardmj1]

More info is better than less info, maybe i should have formulated the title what does what, but i specifically said weapons cc spells healing dps songs i tried to cover every aspect i could think of .

I totally understand where you come from though cardmj1, but in my opinion the benefits from having more information would greatly outweight the cons .It goes a lot farther than dps .

As of now we dont know what strenght the orthons or any stats of any mobs in the game, is it normal to not even know hp ?Theres so many examples its sad take any consol game and youll know every singles monster hp and in pretty much any other online games .

:)

Individual information from an export report would give you the information you are looking for on your toons. A dedicated group of players could gather all that information on dps, etc to create a baseline of information that you could externalize in general. Individual reports would not create chaos for everyone else in the game.

I understand wanting for knowledge, I do my research before each roll out of a new toon just as you probably do. Heck, just to become a better healer, I have rolled out at least one of every class to see where their weaknesses, stregnths, and needs of the player lie when played. I just don't like this information advertised because it can and would (you know it would) be used in a "not so good" discriminating way. We have enough of that as is, we don't need more.

As far as mobs, you are right. I can't think of a game that does not give you at least the hp of a monster in the game except this one. I give you that.

I think a better way to get this information would be for the devs to include hp, favored spells used, immunities and the like in the compendium or create a manual for up to level 20. IMHO though, with the way things change, a compendium update would be better. This would allow players who want to discover for themselvses what the mob can and can't do and allow players who want to do their research to play as they like as well.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Combat log export to text file.

that is all

Garth

[EazyWeazy]

The biggest concerns seem to be increased lag and griefing. I think obviously nobody wants anything that will increase lag, and I don't THINK (big assumption here) that the devs would just toss something out that caused an increase in lag.

So moving on to the griefing... Make the names be randomized Player_01 - Player _6 or 12 if its a raid. Sure if there is just one cleric, you're going to know who that is...or likewise for anytime you have a single class in party. If the information is there though, you won't be able to distinguish between tank 1 or 4 other than an abstract discussion of the pure numbers. Then we can study and try to understand and test strategies.

Or maybe make it an option that is selectable in the LFM. This group "Using Strategics" or whatever they want to call it. Don't join if you don't want it.

This way it would be available for a group of friends to make a group and go on pure strategy testing runs and fine tune what they want to do. Nobody gets grief except for the good natured ribbing that we all know we do with our friends.

On a personal note... I know when Gax was grinding the shroud I LOVED getting into his pugs. At first anytime I'd try and join he'd send me a tell "What weapon for Harry?" right off the bat. It seemed a bit off putting at first and then I realized what he was doing. He was building a team for a fast completion...and this was back before completing was easy. We'd do 45 min runs with a complete pug and then rinse and repeat on alts. As he got to know me it was easier for me to get into his groups because he knew that even if I had an alt that wasn't perfectly geared; I knew what I was doing and he could trust that.

My point with the story is that Gax isn't a guy trying to leet anyone out of the game. He enjoys pushing his ability and knowledge so that he is always doing better. I can relate to that sense of enjoyment. I always want to do a little better. Believe me when I say I have plenty of room to improve. I've learned a TON running with Gax and always learn something new when I'm around him.

[alcmaeon]

Do you really need extra info to figure out what is up? I think once you have been around the block you can figure out who is doing what pretty much as it happens...

[EazyWeazy]

Do you really need extra info to figure out what is up?

Yes.

[Sanadil]

Will's idea is great, easy to implement, and I would love to build something into say the crafting planner, or a website that would parse all that info.

On the flip, if the dev's decided to do it, everyone seems to be worrying about what it would do to the community.

Easy solution, have a check box in the ui settings, to "Display Your Detailed Information". If its not checked, you are not added to the list of detailed info at the end of the quest. If it is, then you are.

I think this would be GREAT for helping guildies out on their builds, it would certainly speed up the process.

[weyoun]

Do you really need extra info to figure out what is up? I think once you have been around the block you can figure out who is doing what pretty much as it happens...

The data as it is currently presented does not lend itself to easy use. The combat log begings overwriting too quickly to be studied when the data is meaningful. So yes, we do have an idea of what is going on, but yes, we would also like more information. With this info we could design and test experiments on mobs that would demonstrate the efficacy of one tactic / strategy / weapon / spell over another. That is powerful information.

[cardmj1]

So moving on to the griefing... Make the names be randomized Player_01 - Player _6 or 12 if its a raid. Sure if there is just one cleric, you're going to know who that is...or likewise for anytime you have a single class in party. If the information is there though, you won't be able to distinguish between tank 1 or 4 other than an abstract discussion of the pure numbers. Then we can study and try to understand and test strategies.


Why parse it out into individuals? Why not a group total of damage dealt. For example..

Kill count: 112
Damage dealt: 67200
Damage reduced: 4528
Damage by melee dealt: 52892
Damage by spells: 9780

Damage received: 9000
Damage reduced: 1542
Damage healed: 7458

Traps disabled: 3
Hidden doors found: 6

If you include an exported individual report then you could ascertain that you did % of damage and the % of damage you took. Would this suffice?

[EazyWeazy]

If you include an exported individual report then you could ascertain that you did % of damage and the % of damage you took. Would this suffice?

I'd prefer the server did all the work. It would be more accurate and more quickly available.

I did like the idea that someone had where the individuals can choose to use the counters or not. That way nobody is forced to share info and so nobody is suffering undue hardship from their gimpness. :D

I see this more as a tool that would be used by dedicated groups to learn and improve play. I really doubt this is something that the average pug is going to have active. The ability to turn it on or off is pretty essential to that theme and would need to be an option.

[cardmj1]

I'd prefer the server did all the work.

Now you are just being lazy!

[EazyWeazy]

Now you are just being lazy!

:p

[adamkatt]

You sure have stirred the fear pot haven't you? It would be terrible if people actually had data to demonstrate that they are gimped and needed to reroll/respect. OMG, that would be the end of DDO. The END I say.

Seriously folks, this is totally hypothetical so there is no need to expose yourselves as noobs and pile-ons by arguing against more information. If you change your posts now, noone will know. Hurry, before someone looks or writes your alts down.


LoL!!!

[nbhs275]

Hey the game is not laggy enough!! Let's add a bunch of stuff in that has to calculated, analyzed and stored! HOORAY MORE LAG!!




And then there is the other argument that people will stop healing/buffing/inviting people whose numbers are not up to par. That's great.

A new person has low numbers because he is new and doesn't have all the best gear so party members see that and decide "Hey this guy sucks. Let's not invite him." Then it becomes a vicious cycle that because he can't get into groups, or even fill his own, he never has a chance to pull outstanding equipment so his numbers never improve and on and on and on. Great idea. :rolleyes:

Actually, more info gives you basis for improving your play technique, character build, and strats. Sad part is that something like a simple dps/hps meter shouldnt slow a game. I mean, I run 2-3 addons on WOW, and get little/no added latency. If DDO allowed player based tools, it would be a great boon. But, they seem to be all about closed communications.

[nbhs275]

Why parse it out into individuals? Why not a group total of damage dealt. For example..

Kill count: 112
Damage dealt: 67200
Damage reduced: 4528
Damage by melee dealt: 52892
Damage by spells: 9780

Damage received: 9000
Damage reduced: 1542
Damage healed: 7458

Traps disabled: 3
Hidden doors found: 6

If you include an exported individual report then you could ascertain that you did % of damage and the % of damage you took. Would this suffice?

Because that really isnt giving much information to base any true conclusions off of. If im playing a rogue and i see that, i have no idea how much of that was my damage, how much of my damage was SA, weapon based, or reflective. But if as a rogue i get an information line of " 55% SA, 12% base weapon, 33% holy/fire/light " I can assess the value of my weapon set, enhancments, and feats in a much more scientific way.

Its the way many DPS meters read out in WoW, and the end effect is a very reliable cost/benefit situation. IF one ability is doing only 5% more damage, but costs 10% more, you can make alot of changes based on that information.

[cardmj1]

Because that really isnt giving much information to base any true conclusions off of. If im playing a rogue and i see that, i have no idea how much of that was my damage, how much of my damage was SA, weapon based, or reflective. But if as a rogue i get an information line of " 55% SA, 12% base weapon, 33% holy/fire/light " I can assess the value of my weapon set, enhancments, and feats in a much more scientific way.

Its the way many DPS meters read out in WoW, and the end effect is a very reliable cost/benefit situation. IF one ability is doing only 5% more damage, but costs 10% more, you can make alot of changes based on that information.

Please reread my last line in my statement. An exported report would tell you all that information. All your SA, pierce, blunt, electrical, etc damage, the buffs you had at the time. If you are not able to do the math, then say so. Maybe the exported report can be made to summarize it for you.

[Gunga]

Now you are just being lazy!

He does have easy in his name...

[EazyWeazy]

I could PROBABLY do the math, but it would take me a while. I'm college educated but math was not my strength and not something that I would enjoy crunching all the time. I'd much prefer to have calculated numbers that would allow a group of reasonably intelligent people to compare and analyze. Let the computers do the work!!! ;)

Why not just provide the detailed numbers of everyone in the group willing to participate?

[cardmj1]

He does have easy in his name...

http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp154/Mystincloud/simpson.jpg

[cardmj1]

I could PROBABLY do the math, but it would take me a while. I'm college educated but math was not my strength and not something that I would enjoy crunching all the time. I'd much prefer to have calculated numbers that would allow a group of reasonably intelligent people to compare and analyze. Let the computers do the work!!! ;)

Why not just provide the detailed numbers of everyone in the group willing to participate?

I can see the LFM's to included "Stats required". It would be on every lfm save a few lowbies. This is suppose to be about having fun, not griefing and exclusion. I have no problem people seeing my numbers, but I don't want to hear it and dear deities, I don't want it in my groups. All you need is a bunch of melees trying to get the next "kill count" gauge these types of reporting would do. A group report of totals on the other hand brings the party together.

[Mirta]

If it could cause a problem why add it just because of a few who think its important when most dont care about it.

Because that seems to be something Turbine loves to do.


You sure have stirred the fear pot haven't you? It would be terrible if people actually had data to demonstrate that they are gimped and needed to reroll/respect. OMG, that would be the end of DDO. The END I say.

Seriously folks, this is totally hypothetical so there is no need to expose yourselves as noobs and pile-ons by arguing against more information. If you change your posts now, noone will know. Hurry, before someone looks or writes your alts down.

QTF


Cardmj As far as Uska d'orien 5 post with on sentence and one with 2 sentences, most people know how you operate on the forums, and then report, im not biting. I'd rather discuss with cardmj that actualy had substance to her arguments (even though she took a couple jabs at me wich i consider funny and ok) wich you obviously lack greatly for 6 post in a row ,what exactly have you said so far ? So you are now squelched :) Thank you for your enormous contribution to this thread you are enlightning and full of information to share we can all see that .

Nothing but you posted 6 times in a row pretty sad isnt it .

Wouldn't that count as spam? I thought repeatedly posting in a row to boost your post count was against the forum rules. Huh, I guess some people are just above the rules. Either that or you're allowed to pad your post count. From now on I'll reply to everything with one sentence and each sentence in a separate post. That'll get my post count to 6000+ for sure.

[weyoun]

Wouldn't that count as spam? I thought repeatedly posting in a row to boost your post count was against the forum rules. Huh, I guess some people are just above the rules. Either that or you're allowed to pad your post count. From now on I'll reply to everything with one sentence and each sentence in a separate post. That'll get my post count to 6000+ for sure.

I wondered how he got his post count so high. Wowowowowowow uuuuuber! I'm all over it. Commencing forum spam!

[EazyWeazy]

I can see the LFM's to included "Stats required". It would be on every lfm save a few lowbies. This is suppose to be about having fun, not griefing and exclusion. I have no problem people seeing my numbers, but I don't want to hear it and dear deities, I don't want it in my groups. All you need is a bunch of melees trying to get the next "kill count" gauge these types of reporting would do. A group report of totals on the other hand brings the party together.

I just don't think it would play out that way. You can currently see LFMs for "Zerg run, know what you're doing", "Need guide, group stays together", and everything in between. Do you think that kind of variety would stop just because this type of information is available?

Judging from the varied responses on this thread alone I think you could expect to see LFMs for, "Statistics run" and "Non-Statistics run".

Edit: I don't think one would really outnumber the other.

[bobbryan2]

An LFM for stats only?

What does that even mean? These stats would be specific to the quest alone. How many LFMs even include "Kill Counts."

Please think about things in the future.

Kthxbai

[Issip]

/NOT signed

If you want to know who is doing what, pay attention.

[Alavatar]

Combat log export to text file.

that is all

Garth

This.

And only this.

[smatt]

/not-signed

About 5% would really care about such things... All people that just want to stoke their own ego's about how awesome they are and how much everybody else sucks...

Just what I think though.... I don't care much about who does what, just that it all works within the party I'm in...

[The_Phenx]

Ehh I like the killcount.. even tho I know its terribly innaccuarate... Gives me and the guildies something to goof around with... "whos the better killer"

That being said I would love mele feedback...broken down into

Damage Dealt (by type)
Damage Recieved (by type)
Blows Landed %
Attacks avoided %
Deaths (by type)

So I could more accuarately fine tune my Meles.

But it should be a personal report only.

As for lag.. guys this stuff is already calculated in the combat logs...

[RavenBrother]

Ehh I like the killcount.. even tho I know its terribly innaccuarate... Gives me and the guildies something to goof around with... "whos the better killer"

That being said I would love mele feedback...broken down into

Damage Dealt (by type)
Damage Recieved (by type)
Blows Landed %
Attacks avoided %
Deaths (by type)

So I could more accuarately fine tune my Meles.

But it should be a personal report only.

As for lag.. guys this stuff is already calculated in the combat logs...

You know I would like that at the end of the quest... I don't think it would affect the game much as live time reporting to a client would cause lag. And Please make the logs exportable!

[weyoun]

/not-signed

About 5% would really care about such things... All people that just want to stoke their own ego's about how awesome they are and how much everybody else sucks...

Just what I think though.... I don't care much about who does what, just that it all works within the party I'm in...

If improving your game isn't for you, then great you can ignore the data. If it appeases those who want to maximize their builds/strats and keeps us off the forums, that would be great as well.

[Chaos000]

There's an Add-on in World of Warcraft that will give a running tally of how much damage output was done to Harry during the course of a raid.

would be nice to have for listing of overall damage done % and dps listing. Might encourage me to heal more and fight less often on my battlecleric and/or validate healing certain people over someone else for a better chance of success.

[Ralmeth]

I disagree with the original op. I would prefer that no individual stats are used of any kind....I've only ever seen kill counts used by people who think they are uber just because they had the highest kill count. When in fact all's they did was ran ahead of everyone else to get to the monsters first. Or alternatively they happened to have an uber weapon that has a chance to autokill the monsters your facing, and other people did not (ex. banishing, disruption). In all honesty, we know who's contributing more to a group and who is not.

DDO is a group game, and I think the focus should be on working together as a team to successfully complete the quest. Perhaps it's just me but I have the most fun when I know I'm contributing and we all work together to beat a quest.

[weyoun]

I disagree with the original op. I would prefer that no individual stats are used of any kind....I've only ever seen kill counts used by people who think they are uber just because they had the highest kill count. When in fact all's they did was ran ahead of everyone else to get to the monsters first. Or alternatively they happened to have an uber weapon that has a chance to autokill the monsters your facing, and other people did not (ex. banishing, disruption). In all honesty, we know who's contributing more to a group and who is not.

DDO is a group game, and I think the focus should be on working together as a team to successfully complete the quest. Perhaps it's just me but I have the most fun when I know I'm contributing and we all work together to beat a quest.

Since when is running ahead and killing everything a bad strategy? or not contributing? Since when is being prepared for the quest with the right weapons unappreciated by the party? I know, lets all struggle through every instance like it was our first time and then everyone will get MAX enjoyment out of it.

Competition is healthy. Stats make you question your ability, build and tactics. If you don't want to look at them you don't have to.

[Mirta]

Since when is running ahead and killing everything a bad strategy? or not contributing? Since when is being prepared for the quest with the right weapons unappreciated by the party? I know, lets all struggle through every instance like it was our first time and then everyone will get MAX enjoyment out of it.

Competition is healthy. Stats make you question your ability, build and tactics. If you don't want to look at them you don't have to.

You sir are ruining my DDO experience by not sticking with the group and letting everybody get equal kills! I don't want somebody prepared for my quests! I think it's best to be completely unprepared and wipe in a simple quest just so I can enjoy my failure.

[bobbryan2]

I disagree with the original op. I would prefer that no individual stats are used of any kind....I've only ever seen kill counts used by people who think they are uber just because they had the highest kill count. When in fact all's they did was ran ahead of everyone else to get to the monsters first. Or alternatively they happened to have an uber weapon that has a chance to autokill the monsters your facing, and other people did not (ex. banishing, disruption). In all honesty, we know who's contributing more to a group and who is not.

DDO is a group game, and I think the focus should be on working together as a team to successfully complete the quest. Perhaps it's just me but I have the most fun when I know I'm contributing and we all work together to beat a quest.

I have the most fun when I know i'm contributing.

What you're describing here, is that you have the most fun when you think that you're probably contributing... but you don't know for sure... but you definately don't want other people to know or not, because then you might not be.

In all honesty, we don't 'know' anything. We can have a pretty good idea... we can even be almost certain after a few times... but we can't 'know' anything, because we don't have the tools to 'know'

Again... being against this suggestion is being against knowledge itself.

[weyoun]

You sir are ruining my DDO experience by not sticking with the group and letting everybody get equal kills! I don't want somebody prepared for my quests! I think it's best to be completely unprepared and wipe in a simple quest just so I can enjoy my failure.


Oh God! Monsters!!!

[Chaos000]

Internal calculators might be nice to have on a developers standpoint as well to identify balancing issues.

If it's one of those things that requires too much manpower to make it worth it is it possible to allow for Add-ons? Damage calculator, Healing tool, cartographer, auctioneer... etc.

They're total timesavers and I'd rather have time to play the game instead of doing a lot of busy work managing my inventory and resources.

[Ezzee]

I think the best idea for a compromise that I've heard is this.

Fine, you can have all your statistical break downs. But they are done individually, not as a group. And you only receive YOUR STATS.

If the members of your group choose to share with you, that is there choice, but as is the case in Dungeons and Dragons, you are not suppose to necessarily be privvy to this information.

[Chaos000]

I think the best idea for a compromise that I've heard is this.

Fine, you can have all your statistical break downs. But they are done individually, not as a group. And you only receive YOUR STATS.

If the members of your group choose to share with you, that is there choice, but as is the case in Dungeons and Dragons, you are not suppose to necessarily be privvy to this information.

That only works in terms of personal dps calculations (i.e. you do x-y amount of damage per second with this weapon)

I think the point was to have a better accurate measurement as to how much you are contributing compared to others. Although thinking about it, provided there was a measure as to what percentage of the monster you personally dealt out, it wouldn't be so bad

for example: Arritrikos killed! (34% damage overall 23,456pts)

If there's a keystroke to see how much you healed each player (with percentage) during the course of a quest or raid would also be helpful. Or at least... *I'd* appreciate it.

for example:
Player A - 2560 (3%) 0 rez
Player B - 3200 (4%) 1 rez
Player C - 24560 (40%) 15 rez
Player D - 1100 (2%) 0 rez
... etc.

[Ezzee]

That only works in terms of personal dps calculations (i.e. you do x-y amount of damage per second with this weapon)

I think the point was to have a better accurate measurement as to how much you are contributing compared to others. Although thinking about it, provided there was a measure as to what percentage of the monster you personally dealt out, it wouldn't be so bad

for example: Arritrikos killed! (34% damage overall 23,456pts)

If there's a keystroke to see how much you healed each player (with percentage) during the course of a quest or raid would also be helpful. Or at least... *I'd* appreciate it.

for example:
Player A - 2560 (3%) 0 rez
Player B - 3200 (4%) 1 rez
Player C - 24560 (40%) 15 rez
Player D - 1100 (2%) 0 rez
... etc.


That's fine, but the question I still have is this. What set of rules would make you privvy to this information?

You are not suppose to be privvy to this information in P&P Dungeons and Dragons.
Sure, you can attempt to keep track of it, but you are not necessarily suppose to be privvy to it.

Being that DDO is suppose to be an online version of Dungeons and Dragons, there is no logical reason for you to be privvy to everyone elses information, only your own.

You want to make yourself better? Fine. You can make yourself better with your own statistics. But you don't need everyone elses statistics to make yourself better.

[moops]

I think that if people actually played the quests as they leveled, instead of letting Guildies and Friends power/zerg level them by running ahead and killing everything while they sit at the beginning--then they would know alot of these answers already.

A cleric said "I need this info so I know who is worth healing or if I should stop fighting." C'mon, reallY? You need stats to tell you this?

Someone else said that the OP wasn't trying to leet people out of raids, but in the same paragraph said thee OP wouldnt' let people into his Shrouds if they didn't have the right weapons. . .Contradict yourself much? What do you think he will do with this info? Include more people into his already selective runs?

Someone else said that anyone against this idea, must have gimp toons and needs to reroll. You don't think this illustrates the actions these people will take once they have stat info on everyone?

Sure, call me a noob, call me a gimp, say I need to reroll I don't care----What I care about is that this would make more people quit the game in the long run as their toons couldn't make it into any groups--maybe just because of the class they play or they are newer players without Min 2 Weapons yet.

What if someone is just rolling low the first time you run with them, I'm sure they would be blacklisted and never given a 2nd chance by the uber uber leet.

Why not use the DPS calculators already out there?

[Uska]

Because that seems to be something Turbine loves to do.



QTF



Wouldn't that count as spam? I thought repeatedly posting in a row to boost your post count was against the forum rules. Huh, I guess some people are just above the rules. Either that or you're allowed to pad your post count. From now on I'll reply to everything with one sentence and each sentence in a separate post. That'll get my post count to 6000+ for sure.

was responding to dfferent posts so not spam and noone is beyond the rules and yeah I have over 6k posts in 3 years but there are people here who have been here much less time that have 10k or more. and there is no rank for post count here like on some forums so number means nothing.

[baddax]

That's fine, but the question I still have is this. What set of rules would make you privvy to this information?

You are not suppose to be privvy to this information in P&P Dungeons and Dragons.
Sure, you can attempt to keep track of it, but you are not necessarily suppose to be privvy to it.

Being that DDO is suppose to be an online version of Dungeons and Dragons, there is no logical reason for you to be privvy to everyone elses information, only your own.

You want to make yourself better? Fine. You can make yourself better with your own statistics. But you don't need everyone elses statistics to make yourself better.

The one difference i see is that in every pen and paper game i played we were all friends (i know their are larger groups). This ment that if someone wanted to know how my character was built all they had to do was look at my character sheet. If they wanted to know why i blew the last 3 trap boxes they know it was because i have been having BAD rolls, why because they see them. So i was never worried about my buddies black balling me or kicking me from a group because of a bad first impression.

DDO is much more complicated. If i join a PUG group i dont know jack about the other 5 or 11 players unless ive played with them before.

Lastly DDO is skill based and twitch skill based, PnP is not. ie DM monster attacks you, roll initiative, you win, what do You want to do. In DDO many character flaws can be minimized by twitch skills (although some better than others and some more than others). ie If my Ac is low i can use game mechanics and play style to avoid being hit (somewhat). In PnP it is just play style and luck of the rolls, no (twitch skills involved). So if a party fails and they say well it was X persons fault it might not be the build it might be the person at the keyboard, or it could be lag, bad rolls, etc etc. Or if X person is "uber" it might not completely be his gear but it could be his overall play ability and understanding of the game. If i have never played with X person before its hard to know witch is the case.

Lastly i agree statistics should be individual. ie group says X person was not doing well X person says oh yeah? cntl-p/cntrl-c "here is my stats to show you are wrong" or "well yeah i had some lag or my wife/gf was sitting on my lap distracting me." or "yeah i know my saves are kinda low i need to get a +5 resistance ring for this guy". or "How many one's can i fricken Roll?!?!?" etc etc.

[MissErres]

I know that my tempest ranger is my best DPS build. I know that my fighter can take more of a beating. I know which ones of my casters can insta-kill better and which ones needs to take more of the crowd control roll. I know my drow cleric heals more efficiently but my human has more SP and can get into the thick of things a little easier. I know which of my toons vorpal/banish/disrupt better than others. I know how much damage I'm doing by the little red numbers popping up over a mob's head.

I run with guildies/friends enough to know which of their builds are more effective in their rolls and what I need to do to compensate for any downfall.

I can asses a PUG by simply watching their playstyle and their attitude.

... and I don't need a report to give me this information...

[Raithe]

I know that my tempest ranger is my best DPS build. I know that my fighter can take more of a beating. I know which ones of my casters can insta-kill better and which ones needs to take more of the crowd control roll. I know my drow cleric heals more efficiently but my human has more SP and can get into the thick of things a little easier. I know which of my toons vorpal/banish/disrupt better than others. I know how much damage I'm doing by the little red numbers popping up over a mob's head.

I run with guildies/friends enough to know which of their builds are more effective in their rolls and what I need to do to compensate for any downfall.

I can asses a PUG by simply watching their playstyle and their attitude.

... and I don't need a report to give me this information...

Well I'm afraid I'd rather run with players who have a report and don't know or care about who is doing what than I would players who don't have a report and think they know everything about what is going on.

You are basically just discriminating on "instinct." I'd rather you have some decent information while you are being judgemental.

Oh, and btw, for many of us it's a group game. Once the group is formed, we make do with what we've got.

[MissErres]

Well I'm afraid I'd rather run with players who have a report and don't know or care about who is doing what than I would players who don't have a report and think they know everything about what is going on.

You are basically just discriminating on "instinct." I'd rather you have some decent information while you are being judgemental.

Oh, and btw, for many of us it's a group game. Once the group is formed, we make do with what we've got.

How did you get that I am being discrimatory or judging by what I said? Or that I don't relate to the group dynamic somehow? Helloooo... Pot. Kettle. Black.

I have 20, yes TWENTY, character... of all classes! I know what buffs/items/weapons are beneficary in most quests, and if I don't know I will ask. I know how to build/equip/play my characters not from a report, but from EXPERIENCE.

[weyoun]

I know how to build/equip/play my characters not from a report, but from EXPERIENCE.

I'm thinking about mod 9, and being able to design strategies with much more rapidity. You don't have experience with those mobs right? Or do you . . . ?

[MissErres]

I'm thinking about mod 9, and being able to design strategies with much more rapidity. You don't have experience with those mobs right? Or do you . . . ?

Nope, not yet. But neither does an XP report. ;)

[BattleCircle]

Nope, not yet. But neither does an XP report. ;)

Hehehe

Missy can be a BEAR when she doesn't get her beauty sleep;)

I pitty the poor soul that tangles with her today :D

[MissErres]

Hehehe

Missy can be a BEAR when she doesn't get her beauty sleep;)

I pitty the poor soul that tangles with her today :D

:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

[Raithe]

How did you get that I am being discrimatory or judging by what I said?

I put the discriminatory parts in red for easy spotting. Apparently you didn't notice.

You are like the cleric telling my rogue back in the day that I'm taking too much damage, when I've only taken like 20 points of damage and I wand whipped it myself. You think you know, but you don't.

It makes you somewhat worse than the other discriminators in this thread that want the facts to back up their bulls***.

[weyoun]

Nope, not yet. But neither does an XP report. ;)

Not currently it doesnt. An xp report of the kind that Gax is talking about should give you data that you could use to enhance the strat you chose to tackle new content. Many are obsessed with beating the new raid first and this is wish-list item along those lines.

Cheers

[MissErres]

I put the discriminatory parts in red for easy spotting. Apparently you didn't notice.

You are like the cleric telling my rogue back in the day that I'm taking too much damage, when I've only taken like 20 points of damage and I wand whipped it myself. You think you know, but you don't.

It makes you somewhat worse than the other discriminators in this thread that want the facts to back up their bulls***.

If I know how much damage I'm doing, what buffs, etc.. are needed to complete a smooth, fun run, and how someone is doing because I'm watching what they're doing makes me discrimatory, then I'm guilty as charged. Ya got me there. ;)

I guess that makes most of us discriminating group haters.

[esoitl]

Give me a break.... these are stats that are really uneeded and the coding to break down every buff/situation is a ton of unnecesarry coding that is bound to come with a boat load of problems.

What it likely will do is give players a reason to exclude someone based on numbers which don't reflect everything.
I can see it now, "sorry, your healing numbers weren't good last run so I think we'll wait for another Cleric" or "your DPS was good but you took too much damage last time, sorry."

What good does it do to find out how much damage was done from Rage compared to Bard songs?

[MissErres]

Give me a break.... these are stats that are really uneeded and the coding to break down every buff/situation is a ton of unnecesarry coding that is bound to come with a boat load of problems.

What it likely will do is give players a reason to exclude someone based on numbers which don't reflect everything.
I can see it now, "sorry, your healing numbers weren't good last run so I think we'll wait for another Cleric" or "your DPS was good but you took too much damage last time, sorry."

What good does it do to find out how much damage was done from Rage compared to Bard songs?

Exactly!

[weyoun]

Give me a break.... these are stats that are really uneeded and the coding to break down every buff/situation is a ton of unnecesarry coding that is bound to come with a boat load of problems.

What it likely will do is give players a reason to exclude someone based on numbers which don't reflect everything.
I can see it now, "sorry, your healing numbers weren't good last run so I think we'll wait for another Cleric" or "your DPS was good but you took too much damage last time, sorry."

What good does it do to find out how much damage was done from Rage compared to Bard songs?


I would simply like an exportable combat log - an indivdual one would be fine. I would write the program to parse the data. I would also get my guildies to send me their combat logs and create information from that. If you don't like it, you don't have to use it. Extra coding? Not really, just extra storage - and temporary storage at that.

[BattleCircle]

Give me a break.... these are stats that are really uneeded and the coding to break down every buff/situation is a ton of unnecesarry coding that is bound to come with a boat load of problems.

What it likely will do is give players a reason to exclude someone based on numbers which don't reflect everything.
I can see it now, "sorry, your healing numbers weren't good last run so I think we'll wait for another Cleric" or "your DPS was good but you took too much damage last time, sorry."

What good does it do to find out how much damage was done from Rage compared to Bard songs?

Not to mention the lag all those calculations could potentially produce

[Raithe]

I guess that makes most of us discriminating group haters.

No argument from me there. I've complained plenty about the DDO playerbase. It's quite frankly the worst I've ever experienced, and I've played fifty different games on the internet, at the least.


Give me a break.... these are stats that are really uneeded and the coding to break down every buff/situation is a ton of unnecesarry coding that is bound to come with a boat load of problems.


No, Turbine may already track much of this information. It also isn't likely to come with very many bugs because it is simply information - not a change in game mechanics themselves. I don't know how other programmers do it, but when I'm debugging I often use debug messages within the program itself to tell me what is happening. In other words, this is almost a type of debugging.



What it likely will do is give players a reason to exclude someone based on numbers which don't reflect everything.
I can see it now, "sorry, your healing numbers weren't good last run so I think we'll wait for another Cleric" or "your DPS was good but you took too much damage last time, sorry."


Which is better than discriminating for no real reason at all, which is the prevailing way to fly in the game.



What good does it do to find out how much damage was done from Rage compared to Bard songs?

It's interesting. This game could use as many interesting things as it can find.

[Belwaar]

Exactly!

Yup. There's no reason to spend the man-hours that will be used to incorporate this.

Remember a couple of months ago when everyone was talking about how we need to UP the subscriptions to the game, to get better funding and what not? WELL THIS WON'T HELP! I think most people would feel like they had to hand over a resume to play first...and why?

Play the game as it's meant to be and if kill count matters to you, then brag it up, but most people in the game just care about completing the quest fairly efficiently and getting their XP and loot. The moment you make this game about stats, it's going to get even worse with people ego's getting inflated..

[weyoun]

It's interesting. This game could use as many interesting things as it can find.

indeed

[ahpook]

Willphase has posted the correct solution twice now. Allow exports of combat data from your game. The combat log may need to be enhanced to dump out additional data that is currently missing but generally this should be a simple problem to solve for Turbine. It will not increase lag because your machine is only dumping out data that it already has. It might make your game run slower but that is your choice.

It is your choice to use the data and share it.



more info > less info

This is false if the "more info" is irrelevant, noise, or biased. The only way to avoid that problem is to provide all data so that you can analyze it how you want. Any attempt to summarize the data will have to filter the data and filters always apply bias. The kill count is obviously an example of this problem.



No matter what you say, the people that care most about this useful info wouldn't do that. I can make ridiculous, unfounded statements too.

You cannot make this claim. Sure, you will not misuse this data but you cannot talk about how others will use or misuse it. History is rife with people misusing data in unintended ways to advance their views.



The lag argument is silly. Do you actually thinking tracking barrels increases lag?

If the server needs to track all the combat data for a shroud run and hold it until the quest is incomplete, it will add load to the servers (unless this is being done already). Transferring possibly several megabytes to each client at quest completion will add traffic to the network (this is not being done now). Summarizing the data to reduce this transfer will result in skewed data.

How much lag (or extra servers needed to avoid lag) is beyond our knowledge but to say it is impossible is naive.

Again, willphase has the answer.

[MissErres]

No argument from me there. I've complained plenty about the DDO playerbase. It's quite frankly the worst I've ever experienced, and I've played fifty different games on the internet, at the least.

Huh... A lot of people, myself included, don't have a problem with the DDO population in general. We seem to laugh, play, make lots of new friends, learn from each other, and have some FUN doing it. Maybe the problem isn't the playerbase....

[Thrudh]

I would simply like an exportable combat log - an indivdual one would be fine. I would write the program to parse the data. I would also get my guildies to send me their combat logs and create information from that. If you don't like it, you don't have to use it. Extra coding? Not really, just extra storage - and temporary storage at that.

Agreed... I'd love to compare my stats with others so I could improve my characters.... But I'd want to do it on my terms and on the boards...

I'd love to know my own statistics, and then I could come to these boards and compare with others (sure, they could be lying I guess, but there are posters I would trust).

[Chaos000]

What it likely will do is give players a reason to exclude someone based on numbers which don't reflect everything.
I can see it now, "sorry, your healing numbers weren't good last run so I think we'll wait for another Cleric" or "your DPS was good but you took too much damage last time, sorry."

If you think about it, the plus side with that is that *those* people can run with themselves separate from the people they deem "unworthy" and I think that will make that player base immensely happy.

It'll minimize the zerg rushing for those who joined and would much rather a more group oriented play. On the other side, people trying to blow through quests for the xp and not the enjoyment of the quest (i.e. people who would hit the *easy* button to level up to cap if it was available) can do so without rebuke.

While those who would much rather prefer a challenge and don't mind occasional failures and party wipes can run with good people that don't have good numbers as far as healing and/or dps.

It's the attitude of heck they don't mind it, so they can have it. I do mind it, I'd rather filter it, so that I don't have to be forced to deal with it and finally have some consistent fun with the game.

The only people that would perhaps suffer is those that prefer to run with the leet players (for increased chances on raid loot) while not contributing anything significant in return and perhaps being more of a liablity with an experimental build that is generally ok at everything but not really good at anything other than taking lots of damage and dying frequently.

[Chaos000]

Huh... A lot of people, myself included, don't have a problem with the DDO population in general. We seem to laugh, play, make lots of new friends, learn from each other, and have some FUN doing it. Maybe the problem isn't the playerbase....

There's definitely a significant number of people on the other side of the coin. Tired of burning 50-200+ heal scrolls in vision to carry a bad pug through a raid when 5-6 SHOULD have been enough. Having to drink 35 greater mana potions to cast enough aoe to take Sorjek down because the melee can't seem to affect his health bar in any meaningful way. Getting the sense that you're doing a brunt of the dps to the end bosses with everyone else dying left and right because they are taking more damage than you...

Helping those people with opinions that differ from yours find each other so that the general DDO population (that might get flack from their direction) won't have to deal with them. Why is that an upsetting prospect?

World of Warcraft allows for an add-on to gather and calculate data on everybody in the raid. If Turbine allows for us to operate an external program to gather and process numbers on our end, wouldn't the lag be experienced by the people running those programs and not anyone else?

[MissErres]

There's definitely a significant number of people on the other side of the coin. Tired of burning 50-200+ heal scrolls in vision to carry a bad pug through a raid when 5-6 SHOULD have been enough. Having to drink 35 greater mana potions to cast enough aoe to take Sorjek down because the melee can't seem to affect his health bar in any meaningful way. Getting the sense that you're doing a brunt of the dps to the end bosses with everyone else dying left and right because they are taking more damage than you...

Helping those people with opinions that differ from yours find each other so that the general DDO population (that might get flack from their direction) won't have to deal with them. Why is that an upsetting prospect?

World of Warcraft allows for an add-on to gather and calculate data on everybody in the raid. If Turbine allows for us to operate an external program to gather and process numbers on our end, wouldn't the lag be experienced by the people running those programs and not anyone else?

Wait... let me see if I've got this right....

You want a report that will help you compare players? So you can see which ones are doing their jobs and which ones aren't? Then you want to take the so-called subpar builds and segregate them away from par or uber-elite players, essentially creating a Caste system in an online game?

[EazyWeazy]

Wait... let me see if I've got this right....

You want a report that will help you compare players? So you can see which ones are doing their jobs and which ones aren't? Then you want to take the so-called subpar builds and segregate them away from par or uber-elite players, essentially creating a Caste system in an online game?

Or help them learn what is going wrong with their current gear/enhancements/strategies so they can improve. I do this with friends and guildies all the time and I receive the same feedback from my friends. This would make it easier to improve.

[weyoun]

Wait... let me see if I've got this right....

You want a report that will help you compare players? So you can see which ones are doing their jobs and which ones aren't? Then you want to take the so-called subpar builds and segregate them away from par or uber-elite players, essentially creating a Caste system in an online game?

In case you haven't noticed, there is already a caste system, its called "guilds."

[Timjc86]

Wait... let me see if I've got this right....

You want a report that will help you compare players? So you can see which ones are doing their jobs and which ones aren't? Then you want to take the so-called subpar builds and segregate them away from par or uber-elite players, essentially creating a Caste system in an online game?

There are plenty of players who would use such a report to help other players who aren't meeting their potential. In these cases, such a report would only make it (immensely) easier for players to improve their characters.

There are also players who would use such a report to determine who they will play with and who they will not. While that's certainly not the most altruistic motivation, I think Chaos000's point is that such a report, even when put to an arguably selfish use, would at least serve to keep players apart who don't want to play together.

[MissErres]

There are plenty of players who would use such a report to help other players who aren't meeting their potential. In these cases, such a report would only make it (immensely) easier for players to improve their characters.

There are also players who would use such a report to determine who they will play with and who they will not. While that's certainly not the most altruistic motivation, I think Chaos000's point is that such a report, even when put to an arguably selfish use, would at least serve to keep players apart who don't want to play together.

Eloquently put Tim. My point is, however, does the good outweigh the bad? Does the amount of dev time and increased lag due to xtra data being gathered and sent justify information you can already obtain by simply playing the game? I don't need a data file to tell me who i do/do not want to group with or how to help/be helped by a friend to improve build/play style. ;)

[bobbryan2]

This is false if the "more info" is irrelevant, noise, or biased. The only way to avoid that problem is to provide all data so that you can analyze it how you want. Any attempt to summarize the data will have to filter the data and filters always apply bias. The kill count is obviously an example of this problem.

Information cannot be biased, first off. Information is information. How you USE information can be biased, but facts are facts.

The kill count is not an example of irrelevant or noise data either. The kill count is an example of 'incomplete' data. The only reason people stretch kill counts to learn things it doesn't necessarily mean is because it's the only tool we have.

If the only tool in your shed is a screwdriver... you're gonna use it to hammer a few nails in. That only makes sense. But you don't go around claiming that the screwdriver is biased, or noise, or irrelevant. People use what tools they have at their disposal.

And as it turns out, with proper assumptions and stated exceptions, you CAN use the kill count to learn about other things... like DPS.

but what is the cure to all this? More information...

Because more information > less information.

Always.

[Chaos000]

You want a report that will help you compare players? So you can see which ones are doing their jobs and which ones aren't? Then you want to take the so-called subpar builds and segregate them away from par or uber-elite players, essentially creating a Caste system in an online game?

Personally, uh yes. I would like to see if I'm doing my part as far as contributing dps and healing goes.

As far as segregation goes it's based entirely on preferred playstyles that loosely ties into player ability.

Some people enjoy zerging and are miserable when a raid takes twice as long as the normal expectation. Other's are happiest when they can take their time to enjoy the content, taking side trips, discussing strategy before going into the next room and sticking together as a group.

Honestly, I don't care how multiclassed or unorthodox a build is so long as it's built in a manner that it can perform well if not better than pure builds. If a barbarian can't seem to outdps a melee based rogue with a radience rapier and the rogue has a solid hit point base that would put a pure fighter to shame... I would much rather have him on my team as main tank. There's no real measure of a person's ability in the game as of yet.

As a ranged battlecleric with good twitch healing skills and enough resources to keep everyone alive indefinitely, (but would much rather not *waste* when I don't have to) I really would rather know how I stack up against other players as far as dps to know exactly who's worth healing. As it stands now I don't heal anyone that I can consistently steal aggro from when multishotting with a lightning strike bow. I disagree with the opinion that everyone's worth healing because some people really aren't.

[Timjc86]

Eloquently put Tim. My point is, however, does the good outweigh the bad? Does the amount of dev time and increased lag due to xtra data being gathered and sent justify information you can already obtain by simply playing the game? I don't need a data file to tell me who i do/do not want to group with or how to help/be helped by a friend to improve build/play style. ;)

Fair point. This is something I would love to see, but not before performance stability, droves of new content, and a massive marketing push. This is certainly a low priority for me.

[ahpook]

Information cannot be biased, first off. Information is information. How you USE information can be biased, but facts are facts.

I never said the information is biased. I said the filter that reduces the information to a quick summary introduces bias. If you take everything that happens in a quest and reduce it to
Joe: 500 dmg dealt, 250 Dmg taken
Bob: 250 dmg dealt, 500 Dmg taken

you have biased the system. Because in filtering you decided that intimidate was meaningless, stunning blow was meaning less, trip was meaninless, .... And that was just for two melees. The only way to not bias the system is to return every thing that happened. And that is a lot of data to track and deliver.

It seems to make sense that if you want track that amount of data you should do it on the client so that the consumer of the data is paying the price.



The kill count is not an example of irrelevant or noise data either. The kill count is an example of 'incomplete' data. The only reason people stretch kill counts to learn things it doesn't necessarily mean is because it's the only tool we have.

The kill count is an introduction of bias. Because it has chosen to exclude possibly relevant data.



If the only tool in your shed is a screwdriver... you're gonna use it to hammer a few nails in. That only makes sense. But you don't go around claiming that the screwdriver is biased, or noise, or irrelevant. People use what tools they have at their disposal.

You probably should have picked up a rock. That is the problem with Kill Count or summarized data. People think it is good information when really it is often poorer information than other sources, like your observations during the quest. But because its there people think they must use it. Much like that screwdriver and nail.



And as it turns out, with proper assumptions and stated exceptions, you CAN use the kill count to learn about other things... like DPS.

You can. And those that do not take the time to understand the assumptions and exceptions, can misuse it. You cannot force people to understand the context behind the kill count.


but what is the cure to all this? More information...

Because more information > less information.

Always.
You can keep saying this but that does not make it true. more "bad" information < less "good" information.

At any rate, does not willphase's proposal fit your conclusion of more information > less information. Do you really need the whole party information to be gathered by the server? If the server is only giving us a summary is that not less data than willphase's proposal? And if the server is giving equivalent or more data, would that not risk lag or additional server requirements?

But in the end, we both want more information available. IMHO, the big differences between our solutions is the ability to misuse the data and the likely of additional lag or server overhead.

[Kalari]

Ugh tried to avoid this but some of these posts are ticking me off. You know yeah as a cleric I agree there are times I wonder about the tank who has me ready to grab for an aspirin bottle cause of the damage he takes. And yes it bugs the hell out of my melee when I lose a kill to a pking sorc when I have the mob down to a sliver. but thats life its a game folks. And sitting there constantly calculating what you and others do isnt playing a game its work. Sure it maybe useful but in the wrong hands it can be used to exclude people and it will be done. Its done in some forms already, no kids, no newbs, no w/p you cant join. With a detailed log it will give people who already have a clique mentality the ammo to exclude more. And thats just the reputation this game needs, elitist snobs who know down to the wire how you should game what gear you have instead of you know taking chances and having fun.

yeah cause always completing perfectly wouldnt make the game boring at all :rolleyes:

Seriously its one thing to want to know what you do and I agree with Willphase on the export log. But I always have hated the experience chart due to the constant nonsense over kill counts, its not an effective measure of what a party can do working together. Cause last I check its supposed to be a team effort when taking on quests/raids. But then again there are so many posters in this topic who dont seem like team players im sure it wont matter anyway.

[bobbryan2]

you have biased the system. Because in filtering you decided that intimidate was meaningless, stunning blow was meaning less, trip was meaninless, .... And that was just for two melees. The only way to not bias the system is to return every thing that happened. And that is a lot of data to track and deliver.

I made no such declaration. As opponents to this thread are quick to say, they already 'know' the contributions of trip, stunning blow and intimidate... they can see those contributions.

DPS is completely hidden from everyone else, however. As is healing. Only you and the cleric know how much healing you received, and only you know how much you were down. And no one other than you has the DPS numbers.

(And in truth, you don't have either of those in any meaningful capacity.)

I would be all about exporting the combat log. I think that would be a good start... but it still has the problem of being "information in a vaccuum."

It doesn't give you any useful information unless you compare it with other party members... and jeepers, that'd be a pain. After every shroud raid, "Uh... hey... I hope you guys were exporting. Can you all copy and paste your log and email it to me here xxxx. I'm trying to look at my percentage of DPS and healing."

Then you get 2-3 people ignoring you, 4-5 saying they don't log their file, 1-2 saying they don't know how to do that... and you might get a couple that'll help you out.

Like I said... it's a start. And it's one I'd gladly take, but it's still not a great system. Something that would give you statistics right up front would be nice... and if they wanted to get really creative... graphical pie charts would be neat.

[bobbryan2]

Ugh tried to avoid this but some of these posts are ticking me off. You know yeah as a cleric I agree there are times I wonder about the tank who has me ready to grab for an aspirin bottle cause of the damage he takes. And yes it bugs the hell out of my melee when I lose a kill to a pking sorc when I have the mob down to a sliver. but thats life its a game folks. And sitting there constantly calculating what you and others do isnt playing a game its work. Sure it maybe useful but in the wrong hands it can be used to exclude people and it will be done. Its done in some forms already, no kids, no newbs, no w/p you cant join. With a detailed log it will give people who already have a clique mentality the ammo to exclude more. And thats just the reputation this game needs, elitist snobs who know down to the wire how you should game what gear you have instead of you know taking chances and having fun.

yeah cause always completing perfectly wouldnt make the game boring at all :rolleyes:

Seriously its one thing to want to know what you do and I agree with Willphase on the export log. But I always have hated the experience chart due to the constant nonsense over kill counts, its not an effective measure of what a party can do working together. Cause last I check its supposed to be a team effort when taking on quests/raids. But then again there are so many posters in this topic who dont seem like team players im sure it wont matter anyway.

I'm very very much a team player. I think too many people hide behind "team" and think it means "I don't have to do my part, cuz a team member will make up the slack."

[Kalari]

I dont group with anyone who does that maybe im lucky ive found people who work together and get the job done, sure they dont lead in kills but they do their parts in other ways. Its all about opinion and I know yours wont change by my words but I can honestly see more trouble and exclusion from this then from the few who would use this for beneficial gains. Its easy to avoid elitist just by their lfm's normally but ive been here awhile now. A new player who doesnt know the ropes wont and all it will take is one calculation player to ruin an experience for someone and have us lose a potential long term player. Id like to try to see the positive in it and as I said im for Willphase's idea. I just dont think it should be added to the experience charts.

[bobbryan2]

You can keep saying this but that does not make it true. more "bad" information < less "good" information.

There is only information. There is no bad information or good information. Some information may not apply to what you want to apply it to, but that doesn't make it bad information.

And you need MORE information in order to have a greater chance of getting the applicable information.

So...

more info > less info

Always. It's not rocket science here. How many mathematicians will say that less information is EVER better? I mean... really. They'll want everything they can get their hands on, and then THEY'LL decide what's useful and what's not.

[bobbryan2]

I dont group with anyone who does that maybe im lucky ive found people who work together and get the job done, sure they dont lead in kills but they do their parts in other ways. Its all about opinion and I know yours wont change by my words but I can honestly see more trouble and exclusion from this then from the few who would use this for beneficial gains. Its easy to avoid elitist just by their lfm's normally but ive been here awhile now. A new player who doesnt know the ropes wont and all it will take is one calculation player to ruin an experience for someone and have us lose a potential long term player. Id like to try to see the positive in it and as I said im for Willphase's idea. I just dont think it should be added to the experience charts.

What exclusion do you see. It's an honest question. So many people are jumping on this bandwagon... and i don't see it. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've never ever ever ever ever ever ever seen someone get declined an invite because he got a low kill count with someone in the party, once upon a time.

You might have someone brag about a killcount in the quest. And bragging can be annoying if it's not a group of friends who know each other... but bragging is not exclusionary behavior.

I've never seen an LFM that said, "Only people that have gotten 125 kills before in Von 5 please."

Is my experience so rare? Are people left out all the time because they haven't gotten a high enough kill count in STK part II, so 2 weeks later they don't get invited to The Troglodytes Get?

I'm not seeing it.

[Raithe]

...the likely of additional lag or server overhead.

As I mentioned before, Turbine is tracking the data it deems relevant for development already. Eladrin has already commented on the quest providing the most amount of character deaths (Dreams of Insanity). If the data accumulation is going to cause lots of server overhead, then it's probably already a problem (which it could be, I'm not denying that).

Lag would not be a problem. It would be easy to simply provide the data to the clients upon quest completion (which often involves a significant pause anyway). The server wouldn't need to provide all the information either. The client could process much of the desired information simply from messages it is already getting. You do realize that the client moves everyone's health bars, not just your own character's?

These lag/server-overhead excuses for allowing players to discriminate without purpose need to stop. The only valid question in this thread is related to whether or not this change would be good for the playerbase. I personally don't care that much, but think it would add interest.

[Chaos000]

I never said the information is biased. I said the filter that reduces the information to a quick summary introduces bias. If you take everything that happens in a quest and reduce it to
Joe: 500 dmg dealt, 250 Dmg taken
Bob: 250 dmg dealt, 500 Dmg taken

you have biased the system. Because in filtering you decided that intimidate was meaningless, stunning blow was meaning less, trip was meaninless, .... And that was just for two melees. The only way to not bias the system is to return every thing that happened. And that is a lot of data to track and deliver.

In the scope of DPS it's a fair to assume that an intimitank is bound to do less damage than a pure damage output character.

If the intimitank is doing the most damage and taking the least... It's a fair indication that either he is overpowering and/or that the dps is underperforming.

For a caster, if a monster is resisting 75% of his spells, then perhaps he should look into taking enhancements for raising the spell DC. For a cleric perhaps he finds that other clerics are out-healing him twice over so he works towards being more efficient. Perhaps a melee is trying to reduce the number of weapons he is carrying and wanted to figure out which one is better to take in a raid. Perhaps the paladin using a +3 keen kopesh of pure good will realize his not doing much vs the pit fiend...

would much rather that people didn't put a blind eye towards flaws in their personal build and always strive to be better. If they're not built for dps then they'll factor that in and won't keep trying to hop into raid groups looking for dps when he finds himself underperforming on that area every time.

[MissErres]

There is only information. There is no bad information or good information. Some information may not apply to what you want to apply it to, but that doesn't make it bad information.

And you need MORE information in order to have a greater chance of getting the applicable information.

So...

more info > less info

Always. It's not rocket science here. How many mathematicians will say that less information is EVER better? I mean... really. They'll want everything they can get their hands on, and then THEY'LL decide what's useful and what's not.

Just an example here:

Rogue in Shroud run #1. Has Barb in group that's dealing enuf DPS to keep agro so Rogue gets sneakattack/backstab bonus and does more damage and more kills.

Same Rogue in Shroud #2. Keeps pulling agro because other fighter types cannot hold agro. Rogue loses sneakattack/backstab bonus, less damage, fewer kills.

Who do you fault? The rogue or the barb/fighter/ranger/pally/etc... ??

Another one:

Cleric in Shroud 1. Melee types all have good AC and don't require as much healing, so amount of healing needed is reduced (numbers reduced).

Cleric in Shroud 2. Melee types have lower AC and require more healing (higher numbers).

Which run do you look at to determine the worthiness of said cleric?

There are too many variables that determine gameplay. Each run is different. If you start analyzing people based on one set of numbers you are not getting an accurate picture. The only alternative to that is asking for a "resume'" of potential party members.

So, yes, there can be BAD information.

[Mindspat]

Crowd control stats too since nowadays the only stats important to casters is kill count, and imho it greatly affects their game so many casters think they do great with pk and finger less now than in the good ole pop days ,but still there 70 some spells in the book and most would only use 2 thinking they were the bestest caster.

That's not true, but I think I understand what you're saying. The only stat that's important to me is how many times I didn't die and if we suceeded or not. I could care less about kill counts as I know there's no real application to the value of a player or their character that directly relates to how many mobs they get credit for killing.

If there were one stat I would like to see added it would be an overall Group Effecientcy Rating (GER) that would gauge the effectiveness and self sustainability of how well you play your character in sync with the rest of the party. Such as, if a second caster drops a Wall of Fire on top of another one that's a crit which overwrites it, or when someone uses Acid Fog and ruins the crit Melf's Acid Arrow would cause an overall hit to the GER. You could even factor in zerging ahead of the party, not drinking potions, or taking hits when you should be using Diplomacy as degrading the GER.

The GER could be an % individual meter attached to the character and this is something I would like to see.

[Kalari]

But the spirit of Dungeons and Dragons never called for perfect characters. Sometimes people are flawed, how fun would it be if all your quests were done constantly by the perfect party make up.

Melees who could dps all the time take proper damage and kill Harry in one round all the time.

Mages who have could cut the SR of any given mob due to grinding out the perfect gear and having all the best enhancements all the time.

Clerics who knew on the drop of the dime all the time when to heal and how to keep stat problems null.

sure it would be fun every once in awhile but all the time? And where does that leave those who want to have fun? They shouldnt be allowed to raid or have fun with those who do put so much focus in that because they would hold others back instead of make things unpredictable?

I wont lie I was in the same mentality a few months ago I got used to things going smoothly and it bothered the hell out of me when runs didnt go planned because something or someone was lacking. I honestly had to stop and take a look at myself because I was becoming something I never thought Id become. I was worrying about things in game like dps, gear, and that nonsense instead of getting on and having fun. The game became work and I got burned out quick from it.

Now im not saying this happens to everyone or will but its an effect that can come from over calculating everything. It amazes me how people want to be so freaking perfect in a game and will scoff at those who have flaws and see no problem with having flaws. A perfect game= boring to me I guess thats just my humble opinion though.

[Raithe]

Who do you fault?


The best answer, IMO, is no one. I blame players for their biases, hypocrisy, and stubborn refusal to change their tactics when the group or quest requires it.

Other than that, it's just a roleplaying game. You can't lose if you approach it as such.

[bobbryan2]

Just an example here:

Rogue in Shroud run #1. Has Barb in group that's dealing enuf DPS to keep agro so Rogue gets sneakattack/backstab bonus and does more damage and more kills.

Same Rogue in Shroud #2. Keeps pulling agro because other fighter types cannot hold agro. Rogue loses sneakattack/backstab bonus, less damage, fewer kills.

Who do you fault? The rogue or the barb/fighter/ranger/pally/etc... ??

Another one:

Cleric in Shroud 1. Melee types all have good AC and don't require as much healing, so amount of healing needed is reduced (numbers reduced).

Cleric in Shroud 2. Melee types have lower AC and require more healing (higher numbers).

Which run do you look at to determine the worthiness of said cleric?

There are too many variables that determine gameplay. Each run is different. If you start analyzing people based on one set of numbers you are not getting an accurate picture. The only alternative to that is asking for a "resume'" of potential party members.

So, yes, there can be BAD information.

Well, in part I, it depends. If the rogue has all 4 levels of subtle backstabbing, I blame the fighters. If he doesn't... I blame the rogue. If a melee character can't keep aggro off a rogue, when the rogue has subtle backstabber 4, he needs to reroll. But it's still a dumb question... *see below*

As for the second question... that's dumb. I would never judge a cleric based on how MUCH they have to heal. That's why information in a vaccuum is stupid. They were two different runs, and there's little to be gained from comparing two different runs. The only thing that would really matter is his healing vs another clerics healing in the same run. That way they have the same strategy, same melees, same healing opportunities, etc... when making comparisons, it's important to keep as many variables equal as possible.

Your two questions are dumb, because they add a ton of variables into both questions. Which of course is your point... that there are lots of variables. But adding variables just to prove there are variables is shady at best.

How about this:

Two rogues in the same Shroud. One does a ton of damage and takes little, the other does less damage and takes more. Should the rogue that did worse ask which enhancements and/or gear the other rogue has so as maybe to improve his game?

Two clerics in Part IV of the shroud. One keeps everyone alive and has half his blue bar left after one round... the other blows all his spell points on his round and 3 people die. Should the second cleric ask the first what metamagics he had on?

Keep variables the same and you'll have better questions to ask.

[bobbryan2]

But the spirit of Dungeons and Dragons never called for perfect characters. Sometimes people are flawed, how fun would it be if all your quests were done constantly by the perfect party make up.

Melees who could dps all the time take proper damage and kill Harry in one round all the time.

Mages who have could cut the SR of any given mob due to grinding out the perfect gear and having all the best enhancements all the time.

Clerics who knew on the drop of the dime all the time when to heal and how to keep stat problems null.

sure it would be fun every once in awhile but all the time? And where does that leave those who want to have fun? They shouldnt be allowed to raid or have fun with those who do put so much focus in that because they would hold others back instead of make things unpredictable?

I wont lie I was in the same mentality a few months ago I got used to things going smoothly and it bothered the hell out of me when runs didnt go planned because something or someone was lacking. I honestly had to stop and take a look at myself because I was becoming something I never thought Id become. I was worrying about things in game like dps, gear, and that nonsense instead of getting on and having fun. The game became work and I got burned out quick from it.

Now im not saying this happens to everyone or will but its an effect that can come from over calculating everything. It amazes me how people want to be so freaking perfect in a game and will scoff at those who have flaws and see no problem with having flaws. A perfect game= boring to me I guess thats just my humble opinion though.

That, at least, is a realistic complaint.

I'd rather people keep to realistic complaints instead of all this lag/exclusion nonsense.

[MissErres]

The best answer, IMO, is no one. I blame players for their biases, hypocrisy, and stubborn refusal to change their tactics when the group or quest requires it.

Other than that, it's just a roleplaying game. You can't lose if you approach it as such.

Exactly. And a report full of numbers is not going to give you that information.

[Chaos000]

yeah cause always completing perfectly wouldnt make the game boring at all :rolleyes:

rather be bored than frustrated.

Ever do a quest for favor that you really lothed? Or a raid that has raid gear you want on a particular build with items that don't seem to be dropping so you'd have better luck on your 20th run, or 40th... or 60th... 80th...

after a while you just want it to be done. quickly. no hiccups so you can run it again in three days to be a step closer to your 20th.

guaranteed completion IS fun. Having to work at it when it should be a piece of cake is when the frustration sets in.

if people didn't mind raid failures so much, there would be more people doing the abbot regularly.

[gaxpar]

I know that my tempest ranger is my best DPS build. I know that my fighter can take more of a beating. I know which ones of my casters can insta-kill better and which ones needs to take more of the crowd control roll. I know my drow cleric heals more efficiently but my human has more SP and can get into the thick of things a little easier. I know which of my toons vorpal /banish/ disrupt better than others. I know how much damage I'm doing by the little red numbers popping up over a mob's head.

I run with guildies/friends enough to know which of their builds are more effective in their rolls and what I need to do to compensate for any downfall.

I can asses a PUG by simply watching their playstyle and their attitude.

You can asses a Pug by watching them swing ? Their attitude ? Really ?Well let me tell you that you are a lot better than most of us at this , since we dont want trust our assumptions and attitude over facts ,we want to do it on numbers .Facts not perception ,its pretty sad that it seems so hard to realize.

... and I don't need a report to give me this information...


This feature is available in wow and it is used by a vast majority of players,(Its their own choices TOO) like i explained many times in this thread i want to know what crowd control does for a party, in terms of hp loss etc. What does solid fog do? (big fan of solid fog )

Whats the difference between a non heightened web and a heightened web for the trash mobs in part 4 ? Ask all the casters you come across to explain you heighten and clerics you will be very surprised at the heavy number of players that dont have a clue .

How much total hp is loss by party before fighting the boss is web cheaper than the healing cost ?Whats the % of success on web with heighten and no heighten ?

*****Explain us how a character can vorpal better and disrupt better plz ?*****.

To be part of any team in life you have to have certain prereqs ,abilities and affinities .Why would it be different here?

You wanna be part of a fishing club ,but you can't hang a worm on a hook ? What the hell are you doing there ?

You wanna be part of a dancing class ,but you move like riveted chopsticks ? What the hell are you doing there ?

You wanna go moose hunting but, you cant carry the carcass once its down, so only your partners are stuck carrying it (every year ?)?What are you doing there ?

If im gonna carry it every year while you watch you know what? Im going to hunt with someone else in the next years.

You wanna be in a camping trip but cant stand the flies and sleeping in a tent ? What are you doing there ?

Youd love to be parachuting but youre affraid of heights? What are you doign there ?

Being part of a team means you have to pull your weight, like in any amateur or professionnal sport or activity we are part of a chain and only strong as the weakest link . If the weakest link doesnt want to improve their game so be it .But my idea goes beyond the weakest link its for global strategies crowd control is not valued in this game id like to see certain parameters attached to it .

Just take kids in school from very young age to college when they split the class in 2 teams to play football or any sport you know what ? The same kids always go first and the same kids always go last EVERYONE reading this here can remember their school days now can ya ? Thats how it still is today WHY?
Because they are "elitists" at 7 yo ???? no they're not, they wanna win .

Because the kids wanna win the game simple no ?

[MissErres]

Well, in part I, it depends. If the rogue has all 4 levels of subtle backstabbing, I blame the fighters. If he doesn't... I blame the rogue. If a melee character can't keep aggro off a rogue, when the rogue has subtle backstabber 4, he needs to reroll. But it's still a dumb question... *see below*

As for the second question... that's dumb. I would never judge a cleric based on how MUCH they have to heal. That's why information in a vaccuum is stupid. They were two different runs, and there's little to be gained from comparing two different runs. The only thing that would really matter is his healing vs another clerics healing in the same run. That way they have the same strategy, same melees, same healing opportunities, etc... when making comparisons, it's important to keep as many variables equal as possible.

Your two questions are dumb, because they add a ton of variables into both questions. Which of course is your point... that there are lots of variables. But adding variables just to prove there are variables is shady at best.

How about this:

Two rogues in the same Shroud. One does a ton of damage and takes little, the other does less damage and takes more. Should the rogue that did worse ask which enhancements and/or gear the other rogue has so as maybe to improve his game?

Two clerics in Part IV of the shroud. One keeps everyone alive and has half his blue bar left after one round... the other blows all his spell points on his round and 3 people die. Should the second cleric ask the first what metamagics he had on?

Keep variables the same and you'll have better questions to ask.

Good point. But I ask again, Why do you need a data file to do that for you???

The way I look at it is, if you're analyzing the game, you're not PLAYING the game.

... and on that note, I'm off to go kill stuff...

[bobbryan2]

Exactly. And a report full of numbers is not going to give you that information.

Actually... a report full of numbers WOULD give you information about the validity of strategies.

[Deadz]

Lets not..

it's annoying for one, and two it does not cause a single person to play better, when they are trying to "score" big numbers.. gadges don't messure efficency, and Usually, not always, but usually gadge the lack of efficency.

[bobbryan2]

Good point. But I ask again, Why do you need a data file to do that for you???

The way I look at it is, if you're analyzing the game, you're not PLAYING the game.

... and on that note, I'm off to go kill stuff...

Actually... quite a few people enjoy the analytical side of the game. I enjoy analyzing data, because I enjoy strategy. And if you're going for the, "I wouldn't use all that data" path... that's fine. Not every release has to be for everyone.

I sure as hell didn't need shrines and chests on the map.

[bobbryan2]

Lets not..

it's annoying for one, and two it does not cause a single person to play better, when they are trying to "score" big numbers.. gadges don't messure efficency, and Usually, not always, but usually gadge the lack of efficency.

Actually.. they do measure efficiency. Or have you not seen gadgets in cars that determine fuel efficiency?

Try again.

[Chaos000]

The way I look at it is, if you're analyzing the game, you're not PLAYING the game.

If you're familiar with the Pen and Paper at all you'll realize a bulk of the time is spent analyzing the game, pre-planning... poring over the splat books, looking over stats figuring out how the game mechanics pertain to your character.

[Kalari]

If you're familiar with the Pen and Paper at all you'll realize a bulk of the time is spent analyzing the game, pre-planning... poring over the splat books, looking over stats figuring out how the game mechanics pertain to your character.

To answer your above post I guess after awhile of running a quest to get completions it is easier to have the perfect make up to get it done fast. Im just glad I didnt let myself get sucked into that mentality yet because I could see me not wanting to play again really quick.


As to this post that im quoting ive played pen and paper for over 10 years now, sure at the beginning creating my characters I focus on the build, but after that even at level up im not spending more then 15-20 mins tops because the campaign was generally too much fun to bother worrying about such things. Maybe I just lucked out with a kick ass dm but none of us wanted to spend too much time worrying about builds and calculations when there were cities to save, realms to jump to and temptation to resist.

I miss the fun side of dungeons and dragons.

[Ralmeth]

Since when is running ahead and killing everything a bad strategy? or not contributing? Since when is being prepared for the quest with the right weapons unappreciated by the party? I know, lets all struggle through every instance like it was our first time and then everyone will get MAX enjoyment out of it.

Competition is healthy. Stats make you question your ability, build and tactics. If you don't want to look at them you don't have to.

Is running ahead and killing everything a bad strategy for completing a quest? If you know what you are doing and you can handle yourself, then no it's not. However is it a bad business strategy for Turbine? You bet. When someone zergs ahead of the party, essentially soloing the adventure, the zerger is happy. You think you've completed the quest and made life easy for everyone else. You are now UBER. However for the other equally paying players / customers, most likely they are unhappy because you beat the quest for them. The point is that other people like to play too.

Is competition healthy? Sure, you bet. It's great to see someone else doing well, and wanting to be like or better than them. This helps you improve and get better. If individual stats are used in a mature fashion, I wouldn't have a problem with them.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

This thread is great. Every few pages I can duck in and keep suggesting that the solution to this whole debacle is to allow export of combat logs to a text file.

Why is this the perfect solution? I'll tell you why:

1. Little to no effort for the devs. They just have to spool the log to a big text file, and add a tick box in the UI options
2. Completely optional. Not interested in stats? Just don't use the feature - and nobody can get stats on what you're doing unless you provide them with your log files (via ddostats.com upload).
3. Community Involvement. Imagine DDOstats.com where you can upload your combat log file and it automatically tells you all sorts of useful information such as a) the AC of the mobs you were fighting, b) whether you're doing more DPS with power attack ON or OFF, c) automatically locate of all the collectables in the game, d) whether it would be better to boost your spell pen or your DC, e) what to-hit does the mob have?, f) DCs on all the traps, DCs on intimidate checks, DCs on everything! (it's all in the combat log)

I might just register the domain ddostats.com for when the devs finally add this great feature.

Garth

[bobbryan2]

This thread is great. Every few pages I can duck in and keep suggesting that the solution to this whole debacle is to allow export of combat logs to a text file.

Why is this the perfect solution? I'll tell you why:

1. Little to no effort for the devs. They just have to spool the log to a big text file, and add a tick box in the UI options
2. Completely optional. Not interested in stats? Just don't use the feature - and nobody can get stats on what you're doing unless you provide them with your log files (via ddostats.com upload).
3. Community Involvement. Imagine DDOstats.com where you can upload your combat log file and it automatically tells you all sorts of useful information such as a) the AC of the mobs you were fighting, b) whether you're doing more DPS with power attack ON or OFF, c) automatically locate of all the collectables in the game, d) whether it would be better to boost your spell pen or your DC, e) what to-hit does the mob have?, f) DCs on all the traps, DCs on intimidate checks, DCs on everything! (it's all in the combat log)

I might just register the domain ddostats.com for when the devs finally add this great feature.

Garth

It's a step in the right direction, for sure. But it still doesn't help you know how you did with regard to the party.

It helps with a lot of things, like DCs, and even will help you figure out monster saves and AC. But it doesn't really help with things that include variables... like DPS.

You could run shroud 1 with Power attack, and shroud 2 without... but your best bet at finding whether or not you should, not from the log, but from a DPS calculator, and plug in the monster's AC.

Too many other variables would change, i.e. The rest of the party. If the party does 5% more DPS in the second shroud run, it would completely skew all the data in the combat log. Total party stats wouldn't be a complete fix either (because party DPS can still change)... but it'd get you closer. For instance, if it was realtime, you could switch strategies between round 1 and 2, with the same party and buffs.

[Ralmeth]

I have the most fun when I know i'm contributing.

What you're describing here, is that you have the most fun when you think that you're probably contributing... but you don't know for sure... but you definately don't want other people to know or not, because then you might not be.

In all honesty, we don't 'know' anything. We can have a pretty good idea... we can even be almost certain after a few times... but we can't 'know' anything, because we don't have the tools to 'know'

Again... being against this suggestion is being against knowledge itself.

This is not what I said. My point is that this is a group game. It's about being part of a team, working with your teammates to beat the quest, to garner the XP and loot. In my experience it is much more fun to be part of a team, then it is to think I'm UBER and zerg ahead essentially on my own team to beat the quest ahead of everyone else, so you can look down on other people in the party because they didn't have their stats as high as you did.

It's about how mature someone is going to be about this. If used in a mature fashion the individual stats would be fine to have. Unfortunately I've come across a number of people in game who are not terribly mature and these individual stats would just give them more cannon fodder to use to look down on other players who may not have as much time to play, or are newer to the game.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

It helps with a lot of things, like DCs, and even will help you figure out monster saves and AC. But it doesn't really help with things that include variables... like DPS.

It would be able to tell you whether it's better to have PA on or off, because from examination of your dice rolls against the mobs it would be able to work out your to-hit bonus, and also the AC of all the mobs you're fighting (from whether you hit or miss). It would then be able to make an estimate, for each mob or 'average' for the whole quest, whether you should be sacrificing 5 to-hit or not - e.g. if you're hitting everything on a 1 then you should definitely turn PA on - if you're hitting on a 10 or above then turning PA on would significantly reduce your DPS. Because combat log shows you the name of the mob then it would also be able to e.g. give you (retrospectively) ideas on when you should have PA on, and when you should have it off. A suitibly coded website could parse a LOT of information out of a combat log, given the user's input of quest and difficulty.

Most people in this thread are hung up on the potential 'griefing' of being able to use statistics to make comparisons with other people in the group, but I think everyone agrees that giving the player easier access to the information already available to them for edification of their character would be a good idea. Adding the automatic export of combat log would solve this issue without encroaching on the thorny area of the 'I'm better dps than you are' issue.

Garth

[bobbryan2]

It would be able to tell you whether it's better to have PA on or off, because from examination of your dice rolls against the mobs it would be able to work out your to-hit bonus, and also the AC of all the mobs you're fighting (from whether you hit or miss). It would then be able to make an estimate, for each mob or 'average' for the whole quest, whether you should be sacrificing 5 to-hit or not - e.g. if you're hitting everything on a 1 then you should definitely turn PA on - if you're hitting on a 10 or above then turning PA on would significantly reduce your DPS. Because combat log shows you the name of the mob then it would also be able to e.g. give you (retrospectively) ideas on when you should have PA on, and when you should have it off. A suitibly coded website could parse a LOT of information out of a combat log, given the user's input of quest and difficulty.

Most people in this thread are hung up on the potential 'griefing' of being able to use statistics to make comparisons with other people in the group, but I think everyone agrees that giving the player easier access to the information already available to them for edification of their character would be a good idea. Adding the automatic export of combat log would solve this issue without encroaching on the thorny area of the 'I'm better dps than you are' issue.

Garth

It would be very useful, and tons better than what we have now. The griefing thing is just a nonissue to me... so I'd rather get the exporting of the combat log, and some group statistics at the end.

They could even do group statistics at the end in a way that doesn't necessarily 'out' bad builds or players.

Just give you your own statistics. Like:

Statistics:

% of party kills - 16
% of party DPS - 21
% of healing needed - 15
number of times rezzed - 3
etc.

That way it doesn't give any other players' numbers, but you know how you did with regard to the party.

That would be acceptable to me combined with a combat log... but I'd still rather have everything, people's issues with 'griefing' be damned.

[Gunga]

It would be very useful, and tons better than what we have now. The griefing thing is just a nonissue to me... so I'd rather get the exporting of the combat log, and some group statistics at the end.

They could even do group statistics at the end in a way that doesn't necessarily 'out' bad builds or players.

Just give you your own statistics. Like:

Statistics:

% of party kills - 16
% of party DPS - 21
% of healing needed - 15
number of times rezzed - 3
etc.

That way it doesn't give any other players' numbers, but you know how you did with regard to the party.

That would be acceptable to me combined with a combat log... but I'd still rather have everything, people's issues with 'griefing' be damned.

I could see how this info would threaten some at Turbine, especially with the finetuning going on between melee classes. I'd love to see it happen, though. I'd use it a lot.

[bobbryan2]

I could see how this info would threaten some at Turbine, especially with the finetuning going on between melee classes. I'd love to see it happen, though. I'd use it a lot.

That's a fair point. But we can already figure theoreticals... not sure why it would threaten them to see actual data. There are so many other variables, feats, player skill, enhancements and gear... I"m not sure we'd get any clearer picture of class DPS than we have with the theoreticals now.

[Chaos000]

As to this post that im quoting ive played pen and paper for over 10 years now, sure at the beginning creating my characters I focus on the build, but after that even at level up im not spending more then 15-20 mins tops because the campaign was generally too much fun to bother worrying about such things. Maybe I just lucked out with a kick ass dm but none of us wanted to spend too much time worrying about builds and calculations when there were cities to save, realms to jump to and temptation to resist.

The friends I D&D with used to spend quite a bit of discussions on the technical side. CR's, sage advice, official, pre-3.5... 4th edition. Combat was entirely about game mechanics, throw in cover, modifiers, your range... what happens if you miss... where does it land... etc.

on the upside we got away from the random tables the dm used to love in 2nd edition.

[ahpook]

It's a step in the right direction, for sure. But it still doesn't help you know how you did with regard to the party.

...

Adding in party totals would help if that is all you want. If you did 1000 dmg and the party did 5000 dmg, you know your position with regard to party. Do you really need to know that it was (You: 1000 X: 3500, Y: 499, z: 1) for your analysis? Breaking it down in such a way only seems useful if you want judge XY&Z. It does not seem necessary for self introspection. (actually, I see you alluded to such a solution in your next post...)



It would be very useful, and tons better than what we have now. The griefing thing is just a nonissue to me... so I'd rather get the exporting of the combat log, and some group statistics at the end.

I am glad the griefing is a non-issue for you. In fact for the elite in general it would be a non-issue because they know that they can carry the team. But there are a lot of others who don't have a clue and would misuse the data out of ignorance. We already see this in kill counts. I think that we will see it with any shared statistic.

Your statement about griefing is a little like saying "We don't need to prevent racism because I am not a racist. The racism thing is just a non-issue for me." Unfortunately, there are people who need to be restricted because they are just not as ethical and moral as you are.

[bobbryan2]

Adding in party totals would help if that is all you want. If you did 1000 dmg and the party did 5000 dmg, you know your position with regard to party. Do you really need to know that it was (You: 1000 X: 3500, Y: 499, z: 1) for your analysis? Breaking it down in such a way only seems useful if you want judge XY&Z. It does not seem necessary for self introspection.

I put that in my post. Percentage of party values. And I did say it would be sufficient. My reasons for wanting all the information are more judgemental, yes. I would like to see how everyone in the party did for morbid curiousity.. and I'd like others to see how everyone did, because I think it's far more telling to someone that does subpar DPS to see that he did 40% of Person A... as opposed to, he did 10% of total DPS.

But both of those are psychological reasons... and I could readily give them up. Basically, I'd like it to be a little more blatant for other's self-introspection. The hope is that if they can see, that mathematically, their shield is hurting the party... they'll be far more inclined to stop using it... and I won't have to say.. "Hey man... you really should think about getting a greataxe or something..." But that's a secondary want.



I am glad the griefing is a non-issue for you. In fact for the elite in general it would be a non-issue because they know that they can carry the team. But there are a lot of others who don't have a clue and would misuse the data out of ignorance. We already see this in kill counts. I think that we will see it with any shared statistic.

Your statement about griefing is a little like saying "We don't need to prevent racism because I am not a racist. The racism thing is just a non-issue for me." Unfortunately, there are people who need to be restricted because they are just not as ethical and moral as you are.

It's a little like that. Except... it's nothing like racism. It has more to do with... football is a team sport... so obviously we shouldn't keep personal stats. Right? But players at the same skill position need to know how they compare with others. One cornerback shouldn't ignore how he's doing, just because he's scared he won't compare, even (and here's the important part) if the team is wining.

Winning isn't the same thing as saying you're good enough to keep from getting better. While it's true that people sometimes misuse data... for example... One cornerback may simply not have any pass deflections because he covers so well a quarterback never throws to him... And he may get chided for not comparing in pass deflections... but that's not a reason to throw the pass deflection stat out of there.

Just because some idiot didn't take a stat in context.

That's a far closer analogy than racism.

[Hadrian]

The worst part about additions like this is that people start playing for the numbers. Instead of a rogue helping out with a few heal scrolls at a critical time, he'd rather improve his contribution % dps, for example.

Any time you introduce meters like this you reward selfish play. Even if no one else can see it, that won't stop people from trying to make themselves feel good by doing 25% of the DPS in a party, or collecting a screen shot to post on the forums.

Measuring individual contribution in a team effort is missing the point of a group-oriented game. Sure, if people can be mature about the numbers, it is a great balancing tool, but most people will just want to see their numbers as high as possible and will alter their gameplay to do it.

Then you will get heated arguments over balance based on brag posts that do not represent normal gameplay. An experienced, well-geared rogue will take advantage of a favorable quest with a bunch of newer players, get 90% of the group DPS contribution, and make a brag post about it. People will be arguing for months that rogue DPS is overpowered, and linking that post as proof.

[Chaos000]

It's about how mature someone is going to be about this. If used in a mature fashion the individual stats would be fine to have. Unfortunately I've come across a number of people in game who are not terribly mature and these individual stats would just give them more cannon fodder to use to look down on other players who may not have as much time to play, or are newer to the game.

But think about it, the immature people would group amongst themselves thus lowering the potential for grief towards other players who many not have as much time to play and/or are newer to the game. Besides, if they made quest/raid breakdowns optional and the person holding the star is the only one able to type in the command for it then player privacy is left to the discretion of the leader.

Not to mention those immature people you're describing *already* looks down on other players. It's more likely that they'll instead have more respect for those who dps far more than they're assumed to, because a lot of the data available is likely to make them have look at the numbers to substantiate their claims before making the "you're gimped and should re-roll" accusations.

[Gunga]

Then you will get heated arguments over balance based on brag posts that do not represent normal gameplay. An experienced, well-geared rogue will take advantage of a favorable quest with a bunch of newer players, get 90% of the group DPS contribution, and make a brag post about it. People will be arguing for months that rogue DPS is overpowered, and linking that post as proof.

A kneejerk reaction would be to nerf the rogue, yes. But then, I would show up in full brigadine regalia posting the absolute worst numbers that I could possibly find for rogues. And that's what makes the world go round.

I think you might find that those who play support classes, because they like that role, would be quick to point out how many remove curses they casted and how many heal scrolls they threw.

But all of this is conjecture until we get our new specs.

[Chaos000]

The worst part about additions like this is that people start playing for the numbers. Instead of a rogue helping out with a few heal scrolls at a critical time, he'd rather improve his contribution % dps, for example.

Any time you introduce meters like this you reward selfish play. Even if no one else can see it, that won't stop people from trying to make themselves feel good by doing 25% of the DPS in a party, or collecting a screen shot to post on the forums.

Measuring individual contribution in a team effort is missing the point of a group-oriented game. Sure, if people can be mature about the numbers, it is a great balancing tool, but most people will just want to see their numbers as high as possible and will alter their gameplay to do it.

XX's and 00's right? I think the point is that some people are altruistic others not so much. Gamers kinda see it as a sort of a player sport and they like to win with a very particular subset of players. They in turn scoff at the idea of fair-play and looking at this game as a team building exercise irregarless of personal performance and meant to extend a helping hand to those often picked last on the team prone to being benchwarmers.

People on both sides like this game. Let people play the way they want to. If it doesn't inhibit your ability to enjoy the game, why gripe? You're not going to be grouping with them anyway.

[HumanJHawkins]

I've never seen an LFM that said, "Only people that have gotten 125 kills before in Von 5 please."

Lol. I'm totally going to put that in all my LFMs tonight. :D

[Ralmeth]

But think about it, the immature people would group amongst themselves thus lowering the potential for grief towards other players who many not have as much time to play and/or are newer to the game. Besides, if they made quest/raid breakdowns optional and the person holding the star is the only one able to type in the command for it then player privacy is left to the discretion of the leader.

Not to mention those immature people you're describing *already* looks down on other players. It's more likely that they'll instead have more respect for those who dps far more than they're assumed to, because a lot of the data available is likely to make them have look at the numbers to substantiate their claims before making the "you're gimped and should re-roll" accusations.

True, but from experience you will still come across such people. I know I have. I do like the idea of being able to export the combat log / statistics. That way you could view how you did on your own, after the fact. I also wouldn't mind more group stats that show how the group did.

[cardmj1]

There is only information. There is no bad information or good information. Some information may not apply to what you want to apply it to, but that doesn't make it bad information.

And you need MORE information in order to have a greater chance of getting the applicable information.

So...

more info > less info

Always. It's not rocket science here. How many mathematicians will say that less information is EVER better? I mean... really. They'll want everything they can get their hands on, and then THEY'LL decide what's useful and what's not.

This post reminds me of some call center managers that I had the unfortunate pleasure of working with on one of my efficiency contracts.

More information>less information. This concept had been drilled so far down into their throats that all they kept thinking was more efficient, more efficient, more efficient. What they failed to understand was that though they were more efficient, they were not effective. Their sales and production numbers kept falling.

They had set a time limit for their operators for how long they could be on a single call because that increased the number of calls they could make in a single shift. More calls for them theoretically meant more sales. In fact, the shorter the time on the phone, the less likely a sale was made. This efficiency practice was so horrendous that the operators were given rewards for most calls made in a given period instead of most sales made. I tried everything I could to make them understand that though efficiency was a wonderful thing, there was no point in it if it wasn't effective.

Not long after my consult had finished, I was called back to perform lay-offs in the same departments. New managers were hired and new policies were created. The new managers had learned from the previous failure that it wasn't the numbers that worked but the people. People make the difference between being effective and being out of a job.

Just something to think about when your calculating all those numbers...

[bobbryan2]

This post reminds me of some call center managers that I had the unfortunate pleasure of working with on one of my efficiency contracts.

More information>less information. This concept had been drilled so far down into their throats that all they kept thinking was more efficient, more efficient, more efficient. What they failed to understand was that though they were more efficient, they were not effective. Their sales and production numbers kept falling.

They had set a time limit for their operators for how long they could be on a single call because that increased the number of calls they could make in a single shift. More calls for them theoretically meant more sales. In fact, the shorter the time on the phone, the less likely a sale was made. This efficiency practice was so horrendous that the operators were given rewards for most calls made in a given period instead of most sales made. I tried everything I could to make them understand that though efficiency was a wonderful thing, there was no point in it if it wasn't effective.

Not long after my consult had finished, I was called back to perform lay-offs in the same departments. New managers were hired and new policies were created. The new managers had learned from the previous failure that it wasn't the numbers that worked but the people. People make the difference between being effective and being out of a job.

Just something to think about when your calculating all those numbers...

Let's just say I think this applies. For the record, I think we're talking about two completely different phenomena... but let's just make the assumption that you're right.

What "efficient" data would you want added? Where is the parallel to this situation? How is "more data" ever worse than "less data?"

Imagine, if you will, a computerized number guessing game. I give person A 5 guesses and I give person B 25 guesses. Who do you think will stumble upon the correct answer first?

[cardmj1]

Let's just say I think this applies. For the record, I think we're talking about two completely different phenomena... but let's just make the assumption that you're right.

What "efficient" data would you want added? Where is the parallel to this situation? How is "more data" ever worse than "less data?"

Imagine, if you will, a computerized number guessing game. I give person A 5 guesses and I give person B 25 guesses. Who do you think will stumble upon the correct answer first?

Speaking in generalized terms that I think everyone here can attest from personal experience...

When people are given a choice between listening to a person (laymen or expert) and pile of data, they will inevitably choose the data because of a lack of trust in the person. I see this everyday where people see numbers and their ability to see beyond those numbers becomes obsolete to them because they lose trust in everything else. "It's math so it has to be right no matter what!" Yes, that is a direct quote from an operations manager that was later fired because production numbers were down for more than a few quarters.

Anyway, back on track to your response. When people look at numbers they fail to see the people behind those numbers. DDO is a social game. You are so adamant about numbers and analysis that you are forgetting that this is a game of people and is best enjoyed as such.

I am going to finish all postings to this thread with a quote from the creator of Dungeons & Dragons, Gary Gygax.

"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game."

[bobbryan2]

Speaking in generalized terms that I think everyone here can attest from personal experience...

When people are given a choice between listening to a person (laymen or expert) and pile of data, they will inevitably choose the data because of a lack of trust in the person. I see this everyday where people see numbers and their ability to see beyond those numbers becomes obsolete to them because they lose trust in everything else. "It's math so it has to be right no matter what!" Yes, that is a direct quote from an operations manager that was later fired because production numbers were down for more than a few quarters.

Anyway, back on track to your response. When people look at numbers they fail to see the people behind those numbers. DDO is a social game. You are so adamant about numbers and analysis that you are forgetting that this is a game of people and is best enjoyed as such.

I am going to finish all postings to this thread with a quote from the creator of Dungeons & Dragons, Gary Gygax.

"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game."

I don't disagree with any of that... but you didn't really answer my question. I enjoy screwing around with friends... I enjoy company. I also enjoy the analytical side of the game, and the strategy. I think math is pretty fun, and I enjoy running numbers in my head while I do other things. I know I'm not alone, but neither do I think that everyone is like that.

What is the downside against more data? That's the end question...

So far you have:

a) Don't want the game to become numerically based where there is an optimal strategy to every situation.

meh... I'm sure there IS an optimal strategy to every situation... but with constantly different party members, builds, players... I don't think that would ever become reality.

b) People would grief others by not letting poor performers into groups, or hassling them if they do.

I think this is a very weak argument for a few reasons. First... I've never seen anyone blacklisted for having a low kill count, and this would be an extension of that. Secondly... if you are being hassled for consistently underperforming in the stats section, I don't condone the hassler, but at the same time... I'm not all that sympathetic. Being a consistent poor performer in a quest means that you're not pulling your weight, and other members are having to work harder to compensate for you.

I don't agree with hecklers, but I also think it's a person's responsibility to get a bit better.

[Hadrian]

If it doesn't inhibit your ability to enjoy the game, why gripe? You're not going to be grouping with them anyway.


Sure, if it doesn't inhibit my ability to enjoy the game. I was stating ways in which it has done just that in other games that I have played, and tried to voice my concern that similar mindsets will cause similar problems here.

So, if it won't do any of that, I am just fine with it. I wouldn't bet 3 copper on it, though.

[bobbryan2]

Sure, if it doesn't inhibit my ability to enjoy the game. I was stating ways in which it has done just that in other games that I have played, and tried to voice my concern that similar mindsets will cause similar problems here.

So, if it won't do any of that, I am just fine with it. I wouldn't bet 3 copper on it, though.

It wouldn't do any of those things in the groups I run with regularly.

Maybe you should examine who you spend your time with online?

It's really not that tough... if you're scared of jerks... stop running with jerks.

[Durack]

Any chump can roll a 20, this concept would help some folks see what types of builds and weaponary truly put out dps and which one's are all show and no go.

I like your post bro.....

And to those that said "just look at the clerics mana bar to see who healed the most " is just plain silly. I know plenty of bad clerics, who arn't mana efficient and look like they are healing a ton because thier blue bar is about gone, but in reality haven't done squat. Seen many a cleric blow all thier mana in just 10% of damage incurred to the pit fiend in part 5 of the shroud and then poof no more mana... Does this mean they healed more than lets say thier counterpart who healed the other 90% of the fiends health with one blue bar....

Also this theory is flawed because your blue bar does not show scroll usage...Nice post Gax & Cool concept ...

[uhgungawa]

/not signed

and here's why. although i would love it to see how i'm doing in many areas depending on which toon i'm on. it would be horribly miss used, and inacureate. it would not show the melee' that is stat, crip, shatter mantle, curse, ect.

casters that are doing damage vs casters that are buffing, debuffing, ect.

clerics doing mass heals vs the cleric that might be doing the target spot healing to fill the gaps.

although it would seem like a great straight forward idea, it would lead to a bad tool for people miss judging others

[baddax]

The worst part about additions like this is that people start playing for the numbers. Instead of a rogue helping out with a few heal scrolls at a critical time, he'd rather improve his contribution % dps, for example.

Any time you introduce meters like this you reward selfish play. Even if no one else can see it, that won't stop people from trying to make themselves feel good by doing 25% of the DPS in a party, or collecting a screen shot to post on the forums.

Measuring individual contribution in a team effort is missing the point of a group-oriented game. Sure, if people can be mature about the numbers, it is a great balancing tool, but most people will just want to see their numbers as high as possible and will alter their gameplay to do it.

Then you will get heated arguments over balance based on brag posts that do not represent normal gameplay. An experienced, well-geared rogue will take advantage of a favorable quest with a bunch of newer players, get 90% of the group DPS contribution, and make a brag post about it. People will be arguing for months that rogue DPS is overpowered, and linking that post as proof.

This is already done with the kill count. Rogues have no time for traps if they want to get any kills at all.

[baddax]

Any chump can roll a 20, this concept would help some folks see what types of builds and weaponary truly put out dps and which one's are all show and no go.

I like your post bro.....

And to those that said "just look at the clerics mana bar to see who healed the most " is just plain silly. I know plenty of bad clerics, who arn't mana efficient and look like they are healing a ton because thier blue bar is about gone, but in reality haven't done squat. Seen many a cleric blow all thier mana in just 10% of damage incurred to the pit fiend in part 5 of the shroud and then poof no more mana... Does this mean they healed more than lets say thier counterpart who healed the other 90% of the fiends health with one blue bar....

Also this theory is flawed because your blue bar does not show scroll usage...Nice post Gax & Cool concept ...

I see this concept at work all the time: Well X person has an easy job. Then when X person is out sick or on vacation and Y person fills in you get to see that its not the job that was necessarily easy just that the person doing it was doing it efficeintly making it look easy.

[bobbryan2]

/not signed

and here's why. although i would love it to see how i'm doing in many areas depending on which toon i'm on. it would be horribly miss used, and inacureate. it would not show the melee' that is stat, crip, shatter mantle, curse, ect.

casters that are doing damage vs casters that are buffing, debuffing, ect.

clerics doing mass heals vs the cleric that might be doing the target spot healing to fill the gaps.

although it would seem like a great straight forward idea, it would lead to a bad tool for people miss judging others

If the stat, crip, shatter, etc was truley helping... then people will notice for sure.

It wouldn't be a bad tool for misjudging people... it would be a better tool than we have currently. Perfect? No, far from it. But better.

[Mercules]

I would only agree to this if it was Client side and simply exported the combat log for you. Why?
1. less lag
2. less coding time
3. plenty detailed already
4. can be shared with guildies/friends but is not automatically viewable by PuGgers to be an "excuse" or ego trip


Number 4. is the worst thing about "Kill Count". Say in a level 10 quest my Fighter pulls out a Paralyzer where it will actually be effective. I do a lot of the CC for the group with Cleave and Great Cleave as well as Intimidate. My DPS and Kill Count are low compared to others, but my contribution can be as great as theirs.

Now, this is often EASY to tell because you will see the Green Paralyzed bands around mobs. What if I am using a Maladroit of Bone Breaking. It doesn't kill but it does make them much much easier to hit(thus allowing 2WF with 2 less bonus to hit than myself get even more DPS from hitting more often). How about Weakening of Enfeabling. No real clue that it is happening but the mobs have a harder time hitting in melee and do less actual damage. Kill count and DPS drops, but I am still contributing in a strong fashion.

Tracking ALL of this on the server would be a logistics nightmare, especially parsing it out in an ongoing basis. Even summarizing the data at the end would be a pain and demand more work on the server's part. Thus, dump the combat log to a .csv or tab deliminated file and allow someone to build a parser to create appropriate reports from it.

[Mercules]

This is already done with the kill count. Rogues have no time for traps if they want to get any kills at all.

No kidding... with all the Evasion splashes these days a lot of people will not wait on a trap but still want the XP from it and their friendly Cleric to somehow get through the Elite trap. So they zerg through the trap and kill things while the Rogue slows down to disable. Every so often you will get someone grumbling about having to bring a Rogue along "Just to disable traps." Rogue points out he contributed in combat and gets scoffed at with the kill count being pointed out even in non-undead quests.

No need to point out that these people are idiots, they often end up on my no-group list even when I am not said Rogue. :)

[Chaos000]

Anyway, back on track to your response. When people look at numbers they fail to see the people behind those numbers. DDO is a social game. You are so adamant about numbers and analysis that you are forgetting that this is a game of people and is best enjoyed as such.

I am going to finish all postings to this thread with a quote from the creator of Dungeons & Dragons, Gary Gygax.

"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game."

The problem with that is, not every player is what I or you might consider "good company."

Some of the best zerg runners that I know are also the biggest *****es I know and I'd gladly add them to my team while on the other side of the coin, some of the worst players are the nicest people in the world of whom I'd rather not group with because they almost *always* get lost, refuse to loot run, and will not spend plat on resources to be less of a burden to the rest of the party.

It's personal playstyle preferences. I'd much rather not misjudge a player based on perception and would much rather look on pure numbers to validate or invalidate judgement. Perhaps I'm underperforming, and if so, I'd adjust my playstyle to be better (to justify not grouping with consistent underperformers because that's not an enjoyable experience for me)

On a logistical standpoint it's a nightmare for clerics to help support players underequipped on the side of dps against an end boss.

If other people enjoy that coupled with occasional failures then that's great! It's not my cup of tea and they can have all of it and enjoy it to their hearts content.

[Chaos000]

Now, this is often EASY to tell because you will see the Green Paralyzed bands around mobs. What if I am using a Maladroit of Bone Breaking. It doesn't kill but it does make them much much easier to hit(thus allowing 2WF with 2 less bonus to hit than myself get even more DPS from hitting more often). How about Weakening of Enfeabling. No real clue that it is happening but the mobs have a harder time hitting in melee and do less actual damage. Kill count and DPS drops, but I am still contributing in a strong fashion.

I would be ok with the tracked data to be limited to raids and end bosses. Where you can sunder all you want but stat effects will be all but ineffective thus it's *entirely* a numbers game.

You can have the highest AC and the best tactics in the world, but if you can't seem to hit a broadside of a barn and your damage can't seem to bypass Harry's damage reduction faster than he regens... = epic failure.

[Hadrian]

It wouldn't do any of those things in the groups I run with regularly.

Maybe you should examine who you spend your time with online?

It's really not that tough... if you're scared of jerks... stop running with jerks.

I don't believe that the game revolves around me. I am considering what the average player is likely to experience, and how this can be a negative thing in general.

It makes no sense when you get personal about a change that affects everyone.

The reason it ruins my enjoyment of the game is all of the balance arguments that get fueled by data taken out of context. Sometimes I have seen classes ruined because developers of other games have bought into such arguments.

This sort of thing overwhelmed a game that I played earlier this year.




Number 4. is the worst thing about "Kill Count". Say in a level 10 quest my Fighter pulls out a Paralyzer where it will actually be effective. I do a lot of the CC for the group with Cleave and Great Cleave as well as Intimidate. My DPS and Kill Count are low compared to others, but my contribution can be as great as theirs.



I agree. People will be less likely to try to aid the team as best they can, and more likely to try to pad their stats. You may not do it personally, but human nature suggests that a lot of people will.


This is already done with the kill count. Rogues have no time for traps if they want to get any kills at all.

Exactly. There is really no point in arguing that this will not happen.

[baddax]

I think the key is to center the stats around improving class/build play not just HSK (although DPS and efficiency is important especially around raid boss fights). Structure the feedback in a way to encourage class/build play and everyone wins. When the only stat you have is KILLS then that says that is the only stat that is important which is FAR from the truth.

[gaxpar]

"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game."[/QUOTE]

A chance to excel without any data whatsoever is far fetched isn't it ?Where is the chance to excel when you have nothing solid (data) to know what excellence means ?

How are you suppose to excel , if you can't tell what you do ? All you can tell is that the guy next to you is hitting his mouse as fast as he can, just like you ,aside from that, what can you tell ? Nothing .

If you can't compare yourself to anyone, how do you have any clue if you are excelling ?

You think golf players don't try to compare to tiger woods ? Because that my friends in the golf world is a synonym of excellence ,no ?

In football what are quarterbacks rating based on ? Who is excellent and whos not ?Who wouldnt take Brady and Manning on their team ?

In tennis Nadal and Federer are the top of the crop , if other players want to improve they have to watch what theese guys are doing on videos and etc and believe me they do it a lot .Why because they want to understand what do theese guys do that makes em excellent.

I could keep going but i think you guys get the picture, we are not truly given a chance to excel in this game because we have no idea of what excellence is.

I know that the best reference i have for excellence up to this day in a raid group is, without touching any individual stat is the monsters kill in part one (shroud).85 and below is excellent in my opinion but i rarely see it .Is it the builds?, is it the weapons ?,is it the player skill ? 85 is usually a one rounder too .
Still is there one or 2 people without the right weapons in the group still could we bring those numbers down ?

I do not have a clue why? Because the only data we can work with here is kill count ,wich i hope we can all agree on is definately not a good tool .Don't we all agree on this ?

A lot of people just took my post in the matter of dps and healing i know the title lead that way and i aplogize but personnally im a crowd control type of caster always been .Where are the cc stats the intim stats the sneak attack stats for rogues with and without intim tank .

Please widen your horizon a little , dps is part of it but theres much more to the game i play one of every class capped i want to know where and what i could improve ,and for this i need a lot more data than the kill count .

If you dont want the chance to excel than dont look at the stats thats it thats all .People who think alike will play together and thats better for everyone .

In real life the poeple that are your friends usually have things in common with you, thats why you are friends its the same online .

Gary said games give you a chance to excel some people want too some don't ,give the tools to excel and improve to the people who want to excel and improve .And if people are affraid of having their ego bruised, im so sorry but golf is a game and so are many other things out there and people still want to excel and the only way to know if you excel is to compare your performances to others .
Don't wanna do that good ,but dont try to block an option that would allow many to improve towards excellence, for your own personnal little bruised ego ,i think its pretty sad.

Don't use the option and play with people who don't use the option ,but let the PEOPLE who want the option to have the option and play with people who want the option .Isn't it the basic prerogative to have fun? Some have fun role playing ,some zerging, some dungeon crawling and some have fun excelling , its personnal choices to decide whats fun for you, whos fun for you to run with etc ...

Some people check kill count some dont it's their call . More choices >less choices more data > less data.

You just wanna play and have fun i have no problem with that find some think alike players and have fun i want to EXCEL and want players that think alike and i hope thats fine with YOU.

Something i said in an earlier post :

Just take kids in school from very young age to college when they split the class in 2 teams to play football or any sport you know what ? The same kids always go first and the same kids always go last EVERYONE reading this here can remember their school days now can ya ? Thats how it still is today WHY?
Because they are "elitists" at 7 yo ???? No they're not, they wanna WIN (EXCEL) .

I wanna win (whatever i do ) I love to beat quest first and raids first and with data it would be a lot easier to do it .

Love gax :)

[Issip]

A chance to excel without any data whatsoever is far fetched isn't it ?Where is the chance to excel when you have nothing solid (data) to know what excellence means ?

How are you suppose to excel , if you can't tell what you do ? All you can tell is that the guy next to you is hitting his mouse as fast as he can, just like you ,aside from that, what can you tell ? Nothing .

If you can't compare yourself to anyone, how do you have any clue if you are excelling ?



Are you serious? Have you tried playing with your monitor turned on? I have never had any problem telling how I am doing comapred to others in any raid on any toon. I see how much damage is being done when I'm attacking vs. when everyone is attacking, I can tell when I draw aggro and when I take damage, how much damage and aggro I'm drawing compared to others in the group, I see how far the little red bar goes down when I crit, and I see the little red bars go up when I heal.

It's not rocket science, and all the data is essentially there, being displayed on your screen live (if you have your monitor turned on). If you can't tell how you are doing compared to other people without a data summary at the end, I have a hint for you - you aren't paying enough attention to what's happening, you can't seem to understand if your actions are having an effect, I'm pretty sure you are at the bottom.

I'd be really surprised if summary data at the end of the qeust would really help you change that, but at least you'd know that you suck.

[bobbryan2]

Are you serious? Have you tried playing with your monitor turned on? I have never had any problem telling how I am doing comapred to others in any raid on any toon. I see how much damage is being done when I'm attacking vs. when everyone is attacking, I can tell when I draw aggro and when I take damage, how much damage and aggro I'm drawing compared to others in the group, I see how far the little red bar goes down when I crit, and I see the little red bars go up when I heal.

It's not rocket science, and all the data is essentially there, being displayed on your screen live (if you have your monitor turned on). If you can't tell how you are doing compared to other people without a data summary at the end, I have a hint for you - you aren't paying enough attention to what's happening, you can't seem to understand if your actions are having an effect, I'm pretty sure you are at the bottom.

I'd be really surprised if summary data at the end of the qeust would really help you change that, but at least you'd know that you suck.


You can tell that on Harry? I'm impressed.

[Mudcnd]

I dont know but well its not hard to see who has the most harry aggro.

[bobbryan2]

I dont know but well its not hard to see who has the most harry aggro.

Considering Harry aggros randomly... it's meaningless to know who he's aggroed on.

It's easy to see who he's facing... but that's about it.

[Chaos000]

I'd be really surprised if summary data at the end of the quest would really help you change that, but at least you'd know that you suck.

Summary data would at least debunk some of the myths out there. It'll change some perceptions as to whether or not a battle cleric *can* contribute in terms of dps on harry or if they under perform consistently enough to re-think as to what his role *SHOULD* be.

Honestly, that would be something I would be interested in discovering. My predictions is they'll edge out some of the melees based on their builds and gear. Some of the people not using tier 3 weapons might take the effort of crafting one. Other's might find that they would contribute more by using a transmuting weapon as opposed to going straight damage with a holy burst of pure good.