Cleave or THF, for my WF Paly build?

[LargeMarge]

I am planning on building a THF (GreatAxe/Mauls) Warforged Paladin (lvl 20). I am needing some help on deciding which feats to pick up. Cleave or THF?

1. Admantive Body
3. Toughness
6. ?
9. Improved Crit (Slashing)
12. Extend
15. ?
18. ?

Option 1 (Cleave)
1. Admantive Body
3. Toughness
6. PA
9. Improved Crit (Slashing)
12. Extend
15. Cleave
18. Greater Cleave

Option 2 (THF)
1. Admantive Body
3. Toughness
6. THF
9. Improved Crit (Slashing)
12. Extend
15. ITHF
18. GTHF

Which Option do you think I should take...inorder to take advantage of the WF improved Glancing Blows?

His stats would be...
Str: 16 +5(lvl) +3(tome) +6(Levik's Bracers) = 30
Dex: 10 +2 (tome) +5 (Spectral Gloves) = 17
Con: 16 +2 (tome) +6 (Neck or DT Docent) = 24
Int: 10 +2 (tome) = 12
Wis: 8 +2 (tome) +6 (GS Stalemate) = 16
Cha: 14 +2 (tome) +6 (Cloak) = 22

Skill Progression
UMD
Intimidate
Balance
Jump

Gear
Head: GS Mineral 2 (+6 Con Skills, +45 Hp, +5 Protection, Hvy Fort)
Neck: Jorgundal's Collar / Silver Flame Tailsman
Trinket: Bloodstone / Head of Good Fortune
Cloak: Bard Cloak
Belt: GS Stalemate 2 (+6 Wis, WIZ VI, +4 Cha Skills, +150 SP, +2 Int Skills, Concordant Opp)
Ring 1: Chattering Ring
Ring 2: Ring of GFL
Gloves: Spectral Gloves
Boots: Gyroscopic Boots / Madstone x2
Bracers: Levik's Bracers
Goggles: Tharne's Goggles
Docent: Dragontouched (+5 Res, +6 Con, any Guard or Levik's) / Titanic Docent x 4

Weapon: GS GreatAxe (Holy, Acid Burst, Awareness 4, Keen, Transmuting, Slicing)

Shield: Levik's Defender (for Turtleing up)


AC (not quite sure)
10 base
3 dex
8 admantine
7 DT Docent
1 Ritual (Dodge)
4 Bulwarks
5 Protection
3 Chattering Ring (Dodge)
4 Insight
45

4 Natural (Madstone / Lord of Blades)
1 Haste
2 Defensive Stance (Dodge)
2 Recitation
4 Lvl 10 Shield Wand
58

9 Shield
-4 Shield Wand
5 insight (possible Levik's Bonus)
-4 insight (GS Greataxe)
64

The tricky part to rolling up a Paladin is getting the enhancements right. IMO that is what makes the paladin worth its weight in gold. I think I got them optimized just right for a KotC with a hint of Lord of the Blades. I know...it will be alot of clickies


ANY SUGGESTIONS WILL BE GREATFULLY APPRECIATED...keep in mind tough...everyone is has their own build and style :cool:

[Thelmallen]

I'd scrap him totally and build a TWF drow tempest evasion paladin if I were you. :D And make sure to push your starting wisdom to 18. :rolleyes:

[LargeMarge]

I'd scrap him totally and build a TWF drow tempest evasion paladin if I were you. :D And make sure to push your starting wisdom to 18. :rolleyes:

Thanks Thelmallen...I can alway count on a guildie for help :rolleyes:

[Angelus_dead]

18. Greater Cleave
Virtually nobody should ever take Great Cleave.

For your objective, THF feats are probably better, as they'll improve DPS against single-target bosses.

[hu-flung-pu]

Go two handed fighting. I did on my paladin and never looked back. He's monster with all that splash damage and heavy crits from two handed weapons.

[Missing_Minds]

Virtually nobody should ever take Great Cleave.

For your objective, THF feats are probably better, as they'll improve DPS against single-target bosses.

Why should no one take great cleave? I'm pondering a few builds, hence why I ask as I don't see why you wouldn't want it. The area of effect I've seen compared to cleave is quite large.

But I do agree with you, AD. The OP may be more suited for THF feats in stead with the changes coming to the splash damage special effects. Providing I read Eladrin's posts correctly.

[Irongutz2000]

Cleave an great cleave r great for sword an board, I mean great, there is nothing like clogging up a doorway an spamming those 2 back 2 back, all those purty numbers lol.

The animation is way to slow onn THF though. :(

[Angelus_dead]

Why should no one take great cleave? I'm pondering a few builds, hence why I ask as I don't see why you wouldn't want it. The area of effect I've seen compared to cleave is quite large.
The AOE isn't larger in any practical way.

Great Cleave extends around further behind you than Cleave does, which doesn't really matter. With the hugely greater cooldown of Great Cleave, the Cleave feat can get far more monsters than Cleave does- reaching behind you is barely ever a benefit.

[Missing_Minds]

The AOE isn't larger in any practical way.

Great Cleave extends around further behind you than Cleave does, which doesn't really matter. With the hugely greater cooldown of Great Cleave, the Cleave feat can get far more monsters than Cleave does- reaching behind you is barely ever a benefit.

Emm... the way combat has pretty much always flown for me always put 2 or 3 mobs just on the outskirts of cleave, so with me, great cleave was always the smater choice.

I can't argue about the cool down though. I forgot about that bit.

Also, Iron was right.. The slowdown is ridiculous.

[Eelpout]

The AOE isn't larger in any practical way.

Great Cleave extends around further behind you than Cleave does, which doesn't really matter. With the hugely greater cooldown of Great Cleave, the Cleave feat can get far more monsters than Cleave does- reaching behind you is barely ever a benefit.

However, since they do not share a timer you can continue to use both consecutively. I do agree with others that they are more beneficial with Sword and Board, though.

[LargeMarge]

Kewl...ty for the help on deciding my feats...I guess I'm going THF, ITHF, and GTHF.

One more thing...I was hoping to get some people to criticize my build...where are all of the angry paly experts? I need to hear from yall.

[Angelus_dead]

One more thing...I was hoping to get some people to criticize my build.]
Ok, here's criticism:
Every new paladin should be TWF. The paladin's DPS abilities like Smite Evil and Divine Sacrifice work twice as good if you've got two weapons. Unlike barbarians who only get 50% rage bonus to the offhand weapon, Paladin boosts like Divine Favor and Divine Might give the same bonus to each hand.

[LargeMarge]

Ok, here's criticism:
Every new paladin should be TWF. The paladin's DPS abilities like Smite Evil and Divine Sacrifice work twice as good if you've got two weapons. Unlike barbarians who only get 50% rage bonus to the offhand weapon, Paladin boosts like Divine Favor and Divine Might give the same bonus to each hand.

Isn't the Smite and Divine Sacrifice only applied to the Main Weapon for one swing each time it is activated?

And if I go TWF, wouldn't I miss out on the increase in glancing blows for WF?

[Thelmallen]

Ok, here's criticism:
Every new paladin should be TWF. The paladin's DPS abilities like Smite Evil and Divine Sacrifice work twice as good if you've got two weapons. Unlike barbarians who only get 50% rage bonus to the offhand weapon, Paladin boosts like Divine Favor and Divine Might give the same bonus to each hand.


See I TOLD you to go drow TWF tempest evasion paladin! Ha!

[LargeMarge]

See I TOLD you to go drow TWF tempest evasion paladin! Ha!

Screw that...I've had to heal you before :p

[Thelmallen]

Screw that...I've had to heal you before :p

That's only because my uber DPS gathers so much aggro!

[Angelus_dead]

Isn't the Smite and Divine Sacrifice only applied to the Main Weapon for one swing each time it is activated?
No, it's on both hands (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1773448&postcount=15). That makes it more than twice as good, because two smites with khopesh are better than one with greataxe.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Just asking becaus my TWF pali is still only level 10.

With GTWF does any attack in the chain provide a double attack (thus 2 smites or DS etc) or do you still have to time it correctly to make sure your attack activates on on of the double hit swings?

[Angelus_dead]

do you still have to time it correctly to make sure your attack activates on on of the double hit swings?
Eventually all your attacks are double.

[Thelmallen]

No, it's on both hands (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1773448&postcount=15). That makes it more than twice as good, because two smites with khopesh are better than one with greataxe.

I checked out your link to the post by Slithe but I'm not sure I read in there that he's talking about smiting. I can say that with my TWF evasion paladin I don't believe I have ever seen a smite go off on both weapons in an attack sequence. Or am I misunderstanding and you're not talking about that at all?

[LargeMarge]

I checked out your link to the post by Slithe but I'm not sure I read in there that he's talking about smiting. I can say that with my TWF evasion paladin I don't believe I have ever seen a smite go off on both weapons in an attack sequence. Or am I misunderstanding and you're not talking about that at all?

does it just go off on one weapon? Not both? That could change my mind then.

[SteeleTrueheart]

I currently have ITWF and I know that the second attack in the sequence if I hit DS or ES at that point gives me two attacks with the bonus.

[Thelmallen]

I currently have ITWF and I know that the second attack in the sequence if I hit DS or ES at that point gives me two attacks with the bonus.

That must be the case as so many people have said it is so but I don't think I've ever seen it happen. However, I don't think I can as accurately pop off an ES to start exactly at the beginning of the second attack in a sequence as lag seems to drop about half of my attempts to initiate that clicky effect. ES rocks, though. Even a weakly 26 str drow paladin hits for about 200 primary damage on a smite!