Please change the way dragonmarks work

[muffinlad]

Dragonmarks, while hailed as a game changing feature, get small play in this game due to the way they are implemented as Feats. While some have use (halfling self healing), most of the others have limited use vs the power offered by other feats.

I would suggest that the first Dragon Mark be a feat, and the second, and third, be enhancements to that first feat.

That is all.

muffinmarked.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I like that.

[Tanka]

As one of the main backers of the Mark of Passage, I can't back this. My Enhancements are already too tight as is, and the way I plan on leveling come M9 is gonna make them even tighter.

Leave them as Feats, but allow them to cast different spells as per the actual rules rather than just one spell.

(Oh, and many other improvements stated by other posters time and again.)

[Uska]

No

[Uska]

I like that.

But its utterly and completely wrong wrong wrong

[Uska]

As one of the main backers of the Mark of Passage, I can't back this. My Enhancements are already too tight as is, and the way I plan on leveling come M9 is gonna make them even tighter.

Leave them as Feats, but allow them to cast different spells as per the actual rules rather than just one spell.

(Oh, and many other improvements stated by other posters time and again.)

yes

[Arianrhod]

Sorry, but dragonmarks are feats. That's the way they're written in the Eberron campaign. Changing dragonmarks from being feats would be like changing skill focus or Great Fortitude. There are plenty of feats that are less useful than others, or only make sense from a roleplaying perspective; that doesn't mean they should be changed to something other than fets.

[Zenako]

I think a lot of the problem with dragonmarks in DDO is that while in a PnP campaign, the perks they give are potentially very powerful, in DDO most of the can just be fairly easily duplicated by spending some of the plentiful money most players end up with.

That most players want to be able to "do it all" as much as possible and as such, view a lot of feats as MUST HAVE, leaving few if any that they could use for DM. Maybe you really don't NEED toughness, but would be better served with self healing instead. Maybe you don't need X as much as everyone says you do.

While not familiar with Eberron vis-a-vis DM, are they as unique and race restricted there as they are in DDO. Quite a few builds I can think of MIGHT use DM if the race limits were not in place. They would make a better fit. Not everyone wants to be a halfling healing DM fiend. It can work well, but maybe a dwarf fighter might enjoy that boost even more.

Whatever, I agree that given the power of DM's they should remain as Feats, we already have Enhancments to boost the times/rest you can use them to make them more attractive. (Been thinking of the synergy of them on my halfing high AC fighter, if he stays pure fighter (level 10 currently)).

[negative]

The racial restriction is there in PnP, such as House J, the Halfling house being all about healing and healing marks, but the choice of spells is larger I believe. I'm not sure if you pick a spell from a list when you get the feat or if you have access to multiple spells, but there is a choice in there somewhere.

[Arianrhod]

As an example, from the Eberron campaign book:

Mark of Healing (Halfling, House Jorasco)
Least: CLW 1/day or Lesser Restor 1/day, +2 bonus to Heal chacks
Lesser: CSW 1/day, Neutralize Poison 1/day, Remove Diseas 1/day or Restoration 1/day
Greater: Heal 1/day

In the case of a choice of effects, the specific effect is chosen when the Mark is taken (like a sorc's spells), not per day/rest (like a cleric's spells).

[Deathseeker]

/Not Signed

Make them more worth the investment, don't lower the investment required!

This game needs more feat choices, not less. Fighters are specifically helped by having things as feats, and rangers are somewhat feat challenged, which is about the ONLY downside at this point to a ranger.

If this change was made, it would just further push fighters down the food chain and greatly help rangers.

Granted, this is only relevant to someone who wants to use dragonmarks (which is limited), but in that case, the above is true.

I do agree they should consider expanding the functionality of the dragonmarks aside from the halfling version (which are the most popular). The rest are somewhat flavor oriented and are generally not accepted as a helpful investment.

[negative]

Thanks Arianrhod for clarifing my post.

@ Deathseeker: I'd argue that the elven mark that gives displacement is pretty usefull if you can afford the feats. Itimitanks that are human ussually take the human intim mark too, though maybe not all three tiers.

[Borror0]

Dragonmarks might get some love with their PrE. While most are underwhelming, this is not the way.

Also, what Deathseeker said.

[Borror0]

Itimitanks that are human ussually take the human intim mark too, though maybe not all three tiers.
I have yet to see one of these.

[Tanka]

I have yet to see one of these.
Same. The Mark of Sentinel is rather weak, considering the Shield of Faith bonus doesn't increase fast enough to make much of a difference, other than possibly at the lowest levels.

[muffinlad]

For the effect these give you in the game, they are not worth MULTIPLE feats. Naturally, this is IMHO. It may be that they would be in PnP, but the effect they have in the game is not equal to the power they should represent in flavor, or usefullness (Healing for fighters is perhaps an exception, and the occasional DD can help the whole party).

Arianrhod-The idea that "because this is done in PnP, it should be done this way here", has some merit, but should not be an exclusionary reason for changing things. This game is not PnP, but still needs to keep some of the flavor.

Tanka - The thought that some builds are tight on enhancements and have a wealth of feats is interesting. From what I can see, this is a distinct minority of builds, but I see your point.

Finally, to Deathseaker, and Zenako....I find your comments reasonable, and excellent examples of a good discussion. I think that solving the problem by making what exists better (more value for the substandard Marks) is a fine alternative.

Balance is important, and I was trying to move the balance to a change of operation, when common sense would dictate you make the power = existing operation first.

Regs,

muffinlad

[Arianrhod]

Arianrhod-The idea that "because this is done in PnP, it should be done this way here", has some merit, but should not be an exclusionary reason for changing things. This game is not PnP, but still needs to keep some of the flavor.



I'm ok with changing things from "the way it is in PnP" if it's needed to make things work (like scrapping attacks of opportunity) or it makes the game as a whole more fun/less tedious (arguably the case with the whole Enhancement system - breaking levels down into multiple parts gives people things to look forward to in between levels). It was just the notion that "these feats are underpowered, therefore they need to be changed" that caught my attention. The game is full of underpowered feats (ever hear of anyone taking Resist Poison, for instance?); having them there allows for more flavor in character building - not everyone has to have Toughness or Combat Expertise, no matter how useful they are. Some people like weird, inefficient builds, or RP background choices, or challenging themselves to try to make use of something that seems useless (like those battlewizard builds designed around Tenser's Transformation). The fact that the dragonmarks are feats in PnP is, of course, not the final answer to whether they should be in DDO, but it is an argument in favor, to counter the "they're useless as currently implemented" argument.

[Deathseeker]

Thanks Arianrhod for clarifing my post.

@ Deathseeker: I'd argue that the elven mark that gives displacement is pretty usefull if you can afford the feats. Itimitanks that are human ussually take the human intim mark too, though maybe not all three tiers.

I have to agree with you slightly, as Im currently trying to level an elven intimitank defender (ftr 18 / rog 2) using the displacement dragonmark as a principle defensive measure along with the defender attributes. We'll see how this works out...but it sure is fun at lower levels so far.

But with that being said, this is really a pretty obscure use...and the first and third level of the dragonmark is weak. If they made it Blur, Displacement, Stoneskin...well, then that would be pretty darn cool (though Im sure that blows up the lore which I didnt bother to appreciate along the way). But I just cant find a use for the invisibility and shadowwalk no matter how hard I try. Any suggestions?

[muffinlad]

I'm ok with changing things from "the way it is in PnP" if it's needed to make things work (like scrapping attacks of opportunity) or it makes the game as a whole more fun/less tedious (arguably the case with the whole Enhancement system - breaking levels down into multiple parts gives people things to look forward to in between levels). It was just the notion that "these feats are underpowered, therefore they need to be changed" that caught my attention. The game is full of underpowered feats (ever hear of anyone taking Resist Poison, for instance?); having them there allows for more flavor in character building - not everyone has to have Toughness or Combat Expertise, no matter how useful they are. Some people like weird, inefficient builds, or RP background choices, or challenging themselves to try to make use of something that seems useless (like those battlewizard builds designed around Tenser's Transformation). The fact that the dragonmarks are feats in PnP is, of course, not the final answer to whether they should be in DDO, but it is an argument in favor, to counter the "they're useless as currently implemented" argument.

I think I see where you are coming from, but have a different point of view.

I think every one of the under performing feats need to be reviewed at the very least, and potentially changed.

Resist Poision could be examined for game balance in DDO, noted that Neutralise Poison potions/wands and items, and out right immunity items, are plentiful. Entire classes such as Warforged can't be poisoned (though they have other challenges...).

So, Resist Poison could be changed to "Toxic Immunity". This character is immune to all effects that are regarded as poison. - Uber? No. It may even still be underpowered, but still fits inside a game use, RP, Flavor build as well.

Or, perhaps Resist Poison, Resist Paralization (Made up), and Damage Reduction could lead to "Warforged/Human hybrid" (Ok, I am watching too much BS Galactica)....something that gives it a purpose in the game as part of the DIZZY array of choices you get when building your character.

The reason why DDO suffers from so many cookie cutter builds is that more viable options are not given, or poorly presented, when they have the alternatives right here, right now, if they were only adjusted to a fuctioning game purpose that did not offer a significant negative when compared to other choices (Lets plop on another toughness!).

Dragonmarks are the most egregious in my mind, because the represent some facinating potential, marred by poor value in all but a few cases.

Flavor is important, I agree. But the choices we are offered here is Chocolate, Strawberry, Foot Fungus, Bat Guano, Maple and Broken Bike Parts. There is a reason why everyone chooses between Choclate and Strawberry (I would order the Bat Guano over Maple....).

Time for Peach, Caramel, and Rasberry to enter the picture.

muffinscoop.

[Tanka]

Tanka - The thought that some builds are tight on enhancements and have a wealth of feats is interesting. From what I can see, this is a distinct minority of builds, but I see your point.
Currently, the only must-have Dragonmark is the Halfing Dragonmark of Healing. If you're a Halfling and have any spare feats at all, you take that.

The Dragonmark of Passage and the Dragonmark of Shadow are both handy in some situations, but by no means necessary.

With the introduction of the new PrEs, most builds will be very tight on APs. I know I'll barely have 10 to spare to get Extra Dragonmark 4 on Tanka.

[esoitl]

Before we start calling for changes, why don't we wait and see what the Dragonmark Heirs are going to be?
I'm curious as to how these will work and may make the substandard marks much more powerful and balanced. I do agree that some of them are fairly useless and might need a boost but I don't think switching more than half of the line to an enhancement is a sound decision.

Generally when I read proposals I ask myself, what's the basis of the change? I can't really answer that for this one. There is no basis for changing feats into enhancements beyond the fact that they are underpowered and not often used and that is hardly sound reasoning to make a major change.

[muffinlad]

Before we start calling for changes, why don't we wait and see what the Dragonmark Heirs are going to be?
I'm curious as to how these will work and may make the substandard marks much more powerful and balanced. I do agree that some of them are fairly useless and might need a boost but I don't think switching more than half of the line to an enhancement is a sound decision.

Generally when I read proposals I ask myself, what's the basis of the change? I can't really answer that for this one. There is no basis for changing feats into enhancements beyond the fact that they are underpowered and not often used and that is hardly sound reasoning to make a major change.

Hmmm, not sure I agree...if something is bad now, I don't see it as unreasonable to ask for a fix. While future enhancements (DmHeirs) may help make this better, it won't fix the core issue, or if someone would not want to be a DmHeir.

As for the basis of the proposal, I would argue that it is yet another feat that is wasted by irrelevance to the game, and as such, deserves retooling. While I still LIKE my proposal of One Feat, the rest enhancements, I can see why it might cause some builds that exist currently to suffer- which, I see as a minority of builds- vs. a greater flavor and useablity of Dmks.

As I have pointed out in a previous post, I would also be happy with simply making the current marks BETTER. Making them WORTH a feat (besides healing), and making each level worth a feat.

That is both reasoned, easier than my original suggestion, and more inviting to people who do use them currently.

Regs,

muffinmark

[muffinlad]

Currently, the only must-have Dragonmark is the Halfing Dragonmark of Healing. If you're a Halfling and have any spare feats at all, you take that.

The Dragonmark of Passage and the Dragonmark of Shadow are both handy in some situations, but by no means necessary.

With the introduction of the new PrEs, most builds will be very tight on APs. I know I'll barely have 10 to spare to get Extra Dragonmark 4 on Tanka.

The PrE's are going to tighten things up, I agree, however there will be 16 or so more AP's heading our way (I am guessing you planned your build out, so you know the end game), and think a Feat, 2-ap 2-ap price for the current power is worth it (perhaps under cost for healing).

However, simply making Dmks better at their current cost is acceptable to me too.

Regs,

muffindragon

[Tanka]

The PrE's are going to tighten things up, I agree, however there will be 16 or so more AP's heading our way (I am guessing you planned your build out, so you know the end game), and think a Feat, 2-ap 2-ap price for the current power is worth it (perhaps under cost for healing).

However, simply making Dmks better at their current cost is acceptable to me too.

Regs,

muffindragon
I've done the math for Tanka already. I have just enough APs at L20 to take Extra Dragonmark 4. This is at the expense of Human Versatility, of course. I will have zero APs to spend on your suggested manner of advancing Dragonmarks.

[Laith]

I have yet to see one of these.i have the least sentinal mark on my intimitank, however it is strictly because there aren't any other feats worthwhile. i was going to replace it with toughness, but then they started announcing the new PrEs...

he's 13fighter/3pally (also primarily do to lack of useful feats). Why waste a shard and 10k plat on someone that's going to be canned in mod9?

[Ralmeth]

I have to agree with you slightly, as Im currently trying to level an elven intimitank defender (ftr 18 / rog 2) using the displacement dragonmark as a principle defensive measure along with the defender attributes. We'll see how this works out...but it sure is fun at lower levels so far.

But with that being said, this is really a pretty obscure use...and the first and third level of the dragonmark is weak. If they made it Blur, Displacement, Stoneskin...well, then that would be pretty darn cool (though Im sure that blows up the lore which I didnt bother to appreciate along the way). But I just cant find a use for the invisibility and shadowwalk no matter how hard I try. Any suggestions?

I'm working on an Elven Ranger with these dragonmarks and the displacement clicky is very nice, though I've yet to try it out on all high end content. As for the invisibility clickies, I don't use these too often, but it is a little helpful if you're in trouble and you need to escape. Alternatively if you come back from a res shrine you can use invisibility to make it harder for a monster to see you while you use the rest shrine. Invisibility is not nearly as good in DDO as we ever used it in PnP, but it will give monsters pause or confuse them a little on where you are. I also find it helpful if the group wants to just run past a bunch of monsters, again giving you an extra moment with each mob you run past. Also helpful to throw on a NPC you have to protect (if they're smart enough not to attack anything).

As for Shadowwalk, I just don't have an extra feats available. What is this anyways?

[Jerevon]

Dragonmarks, while hailed as a game changing feature, get small play in this game due to the way they are implemented as Feats. While some have use (halfling self healing), most of the others have limited use vs the power offered by other feats.

I would suggest that the first Dragon Mark be a feat, and the second, and third, be enhancements to that first feat.

That is all.

muffinmarked.

Great idea, but there just isn't enough enhancement points to go around to take the build I want and then dump more into a dragonmark feat.

With the exception of the halfling mark, the other dragonmarks just suck. So, I'm not saying "it's fine the way it is" because it's not.

[QuantumFX]

Currently, the only must-have Dragonmark is the Halfing Dragonmark of Healing. If you're a Halfling and have any spare feats at all, you take that.

The Dragonmark of Passage and the Dragonmark of Shadow are both handy in some situations, but by no means necessary.

With the introduction of the new PrEs, most builds will be very tight on APs. I know I'll barely have 10 to spare to get Extra Dragonmark 4 on Tanka.

My Elf 2 Fighter/14 Ranger is going to have to come up with some creative feat choices just to make his dragonmarks work for him. (Frakking oTWF feat requirement on Tempset III) And rangers aren’t the most AP intensive class.