Barbarian Capstone: Might

[Eladrin]

The Barbarian Capsto (http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt283/itsapuzzle/01100001.jpg?t=1243551930)ne we're unveiling today seems like a natural fit for any that choose to take the Frenzied Berserker prestige enhancement line, though we think that any level 20 Barbarian is likely to find themselves content with the bonuses they receive from...

Barbarian Might
Prereqs: Level 20 Barbarian
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Your biceps are frequently mistaken for slabs of ham. Your strength is increased by 2, and when wielding two handed weapons you have increased glancing blow damage and an increased chance of applying weapon special effects on glancing blows.

[Mhykke]

Nice, but I have a feeling TWF'ing barbs are gonna be a little miffed.

Guessing pretty much all TWF'ing barbs are gonna be 18/2.

[jmonty]

good to see another capstone released.

[Borror0]

Your strength is increased by 2
Hmm, so +4 Str for reaching 20 Barbarian?

[...] and when wielding two handed weapons you have increased glancing blow damage and an increased chance of applying weapon special effects on glancing blows.
No change of knowing the numbers on that one, eh?

[vtecfiend99]

Wow... uh, there are sure gonna be some upset barbs that are TWF that wanted to stay pure lol.


This seems rather lackluster.

[Stormanne]

Rawr, glad I chose to stay true to the class and wield big, clumsy axes and hammers. Who needs all that skill with two weapons when one big one gets the job done just as well...

[Borror0]

Guessing pretty much all TWF'ing barbs are gonna be 18/2.
Two rogue? Maybe.

Two fighter?

A FB barbarian would want:

1. Power Attack
3. Two-Weapon Fighting
6. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9. Improved Critical
12. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
15. Cleave
18. Toughness
Other than that, khopesh? If so, human barbarians will be pure other will be fighter splashed. Barbarians who do not used khopesh will also be pure (or maybe even skipping on Toughness for more DPS). The capstone does not seem horrible at all, to me.

Or, did I miss anything?

[Nick_RC]

Nice to see a capstone. Twfs will be all 18/2 ftr or 18/2 rog. No brainer. Little bump for the 2 handed barbs. Glad I took those fighter levels.

[Nick_RC]

Two... fighter?

A FB barbarian would want:

1. Power Attack
3. Two-Weapon Fighting
6. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9. Improved Critical
12. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
15. Cleave
18. Toughness
Other than that, khopesh? If so, human barbarians will be pure other will be fighter splashed.

Barbarians who do not used khopesh will also be pure. Or, did I miss anything?

Depends on the mob ac. WF esp with all those PA enhancements might need oversize. Not having stunning blow on a barb is a big mistake also. And yes khopesh. not to mention ftr str 1, 20% shots of 5x haste a day cheap tactics feats etc etc.

Edit: Human would be the best Pure Race 2wf barb IMO. Sub toughness for khopesh and add stunning blow...but then again hes not WF...

[Shima-ra]

Thats nice, just that +2 str is a good boost even your barbarian is not use 2handed weapons.

But all that THF stuff makes me wonder if that last extra swing you'll get at lvl 20 (20 BAB) will compensate for the fact that you attack 20% slower with 15 BAB then with 14 BAB.

[vtecfiend99]

Not having stunning blow on a barb is a big mistake also

Truth


But all that THF stuff makes me wonder if that last extra swing you'll get at lvl 20 (20 BAB) will compensate for the fact that you attack 20% slower with 15 BAB then with 14 BAB.

Wouldn't count on that, if they wanted to fix it they would have just fixed the animation we have now.

[Borror0]

WF esp with all those PA enhancements might need oversize.
Well, barbarians in Frenzy will be at something like 60 Str, but maybe.

And yes khopesh.
Maybe Toughness will be worth skipping.

not to mention ftr str 1
Covered by the +4 Str offered by level 20.

cheap tactics feats etc etc.
+4 Str is also +2 to tactics, if you meant the enhancements.

[Deathseeker]

Thank you for catching up on the preview...was getting a little nervous this week :)

Looks fairly weak, but that doesnt necessarily mean its bad. But it does mean 20 Barbarian is likely not gonna happen on a TWF. Very possible for a THF though.

[Nick_RC]

Well, barbarians in Frenzy will be at something like 60 Str, but maybe.

Maybe Toughness will be worth skipping.

Covered by the +4 Str offered by level 20.

+4 Str is also +2 to tactics, if you meant the enhancements.

Yeah B, might have writtin it the wrong way i mean the 2ftr will be able to keep up with the benefits of +4 str in some regards. Sorry if it came out wrong. The +1 str from ftr too is probably easy enough to make up to an even. The SB and trip tactics help cancel a little of the +4. The 5x haste and the feats make it comparable IMO. The pure barb is nice IF they can get all the requisite feat they need. Otherwise its 2 ftr.

Edit at first I thought it was weak...but in retrospect its not that bad considering ur lumping it in there with mighty rage. Its nice. And doesnt waste those 2 splash builds.

N

[bobbryan2]

Well... it's better than the rogue, at least!

[negative]

Well, I really don't like the trend I see, with all the capstones being very specialized. I might not be bothered so much by it if we were getting multiple capstones for each class at Mod9. But with the cap going up to 20 in Mod 9, waiting to find out what the other capstones will be doesn't sit well with me.

Though, my Barb is a THF, so I'm happy with this specific capstone and will probably remain pure if I can figure out a way to get enough feats.

[Angelus_dead]

I wonder what's going on where each one is later and later in the week...


though we think that any level 20 Barbarian is likely to find themselves content with the bonuses they receive from...
Yeah, any barb20 would spend the AP on it. And since the existing reason to go Barb20 is the Mighty Rage str bonus, obviously anyone who went there will desire more.


Your strength is increased by 2, and when wielding two handed weapons you have increased glancing blow damage and an increased chance of applying weapon special effects on glancing blows.
So the sources of increased glancing-procs are THF 1,2,3, Kensai 1,2,3, FB 1,2,3 and WF THWM 1,2,3, in addition to Might. That's 3+3+3+1 = 10 total a barb could have, meaning each could give 10%.

[Dark-Star]

They have said that there likely will be multiple capstones down the line. This one seems oriented to THF barbarians, and they probably need the most boost. My barb is TWF, but I will probably stay pure for whatever comes later.

[Angelus_dead]

Wow... uh, there are sure gonna be some upset barbs that are TWF that wanted to stay pure lol.
The various bonuses to attack and damage are still rather good, but it's not as if TWF barbs can argue that they deserve buffs more than THF builds do.

[Gunga]

1 of my 5 barbs will get this. Nice.

[DasLurch]

To me at least this sounds like a Fighter capstone more than a Barbarian one. It's nice, and I think that Barbarians that stay pure will definitely want to add this to their builds.

[Pyromaniac]

Definitely looks like an 18/2 is the way to go for my currently pure barbarian. But as someone said earlier - at least its not the rogue capstone kinda bad.

[Angelus_dead]

Benefit: Your biceps are frequently mistaken for slabs of ham. Your strength is increased by 2, and when wielding two handed weapons you have increased glancing blow damage and an increased chance of applying weapon special effects on glancing blows.
It's interesting to compare this with the Paladin capstone.


Benefit: Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction, deal 1d6 additional holy damage against all evil opponents and an additional 2d6 light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders.

Both of them increase per-hit melee damage.

Barb capstone:
Effective against all kinds of foe.
+1 attack rolls.
TWF gains 0.97 per hit, while THF gains 1.8. (Slightly more with FB)
Greater benefit to THF than TWF, so the weaker style gains more.

Pal capstone:
Effective only against evil foes (which are the most important and dangerous)
+0 attack rolls.
Both TWF and THF gain 3.5 or 10.5 per hit, depending on the kind of enemy.
Greater benefit to TWF than THF, so the stronger style gains more.
DR effect opens a whole category of weapons to potential non-worthlessness.

[EinarMal]

So, if I am adding right, max strength at 20 for a full Barb ignoring buffs anyone can have is:

Level 20 Barbarian
18 (Base)
5 (Levels)
3 (Tome)
6 (Item)
8 (Mighty Rage)
4 (Power Rage IV)
2 (Capstone)
4 (Death Frenzy)
Total = 50

(Secret build tip)
Fighter 12/Barbarian 8 (Kensai II/FB I)
18 (Base)
5 (Levels)
3 (Tome)
3 (Enh.)
1 (DT Docent)
6 (Item)
4 (Rage)
2 (Power Rage II)
8 (Power Surge)
2 (Frenzy)
Total = 52

The Fighter 12/Barbarian 8 build could definitely give the pure Barb a run for their money in the DPS category. Better to-hit and even more strength makes fitting in Warforged Power Attack III and Barbarian Power Attack II a breeze.

The Barbarian would get the crit multiplier and better vicious damage, while the fighter gets a nice static +9 to damage from spec/kensai and has higher to hit to allow for warforged + barbarian power attack enhancements.

About the best two THF builds you can make I think.

The Barbarian would probably come out ahead only if using double frenzy which would be some major self damage.

The other factor is the 12/8 would have to conserve rages during quests in some cases.

[Angelus_dead]

The Fighter 12/Barbarian 8 build could definitely give the pure Barb a run for their money in the DPS category.
It's pointless to talk about fig12/barb8 when you could have fig12/ran6/X2. After all, the goal is DPS, not DPH.


About the best two THF builds you can make I think.
But "THF" is not really a productive goal... (and I'd prefer rog19/monk1 for that purpose anyhow)


SFighter 12/Barbarian 8 (Kensai II/FB I)
2 (Frenzy)
The barb20 could use Frenzy too.

[Tabun]

guess I had best get to work on RE-Rolling

[EinarMal]

It's pointless to talk about fig12/barb8 when you could have fig12/ran6/X2. After all, the goal is DPS, not DPH.


But "THF" is not really a productive goal... (and I'd prefer rog19/monk1 for that purpose anyhow)


The barb20 could use Frenzy too.

I put in one level of frenzy for the Barbarian if they double frenzy they are equal in strength. The 12/6/x2 build really isn't that much higher DPS. The big other difference is staying power, the 12/8 build has far more hit points when raged compared to the 12/6 build.

The 12/8 has 6 higher strength and +2 more from power attack (plus well over 100 more hit points). The 12/6 has 10% speed boost, +3 damage, and +6 for 2 enemy types.

Both have effectively zero defense against really tough opponents, so the 100 + hit points makes a big difference.

My point was, and is true that 12/8 Kensai Berserker is very close to level 20 Barbarian and another way to make essentially the same build.

The fact that Ranger 6 is incredibly overpowered at the moment is an entirely other issue.

It would not suprise me at all to see two things, as clearly 12 Fighter/Ranger 6 is not supposed to out DPS Barbarian 20. One they will add 5% attack speed items with the same type as tempest, and they will perhaps change the boosts themselves to the same type of speed boost. I would not count on that build being king for long as that is clearly not what the game is going for as max DPS. No way do they want anyone to out DPS a level 20 Barbarian except perhaps a Rogue with 100% sneak attacks.

[BlackSteel]

Level 20 Barbarian
18 (Base)
5 (Levels)
3 (Tome)
6 (Item)
8 (Mighty Rage)
4 (Power Rage IV)
2 (Capstone)
4 (Death Frenzy)
Total = 50


you included two things in the other list thats not here, frenzy should be 6, and no list of the DT docent, thats not limited to multiclass builds ;) so 53 to 52

and its hard to compare the two just yet, depends on the duration of power surge. It may not be possible to stay perma power surged as it is to stay perma raged. And multiclass barbs have a hard time managing their rages as well. (not speaking the /2 builds, but those like 12 fighter/ 8 barb) Sure regardless of duration of power surge, it would be possible to stay in it for the shroud or pit fiend fights. With all the shrines and assuming a 1 - 2 rounder. But keeping it up for a 30 minute quest? Something we cant judge just yet.

personally I find the capstone, meh, it'll be hard to complain. But I was hoping for something up there with the palidan capstone. A bonus to str modifiers or power attack wouldve been awesome, and served to benefit thf more.

[Ralmeth]

It's nice to see a different weapon style getting a little boost, to add a little more variety to the game as opposed to everyone going TWF.

[EinarMal]

you included two things in the other list thats not here, frenzy should be 6, and no list of the DT docent, thats not limited to multiclass builds ;) so 53 to 52

and its hard to compare the two just yet, depends on the duration of power surge. It may not be possible to stay perma power surged as it is to stay perma raged. And multiclass barbs have a hard time managing their rages as well. (not speaking the /2 builds, but those like 12 fighter/ 8 barb) Sure regardless of duration of power surge, it would be possible to stay in it for the shroud or pit fiend fights. With all the shrines and assuming a 1 - 2 rounder. But keeping it up for a 30 minute quest? Something we cant judge just yet.

personally I find the capstone, meh, it'll be hard to complain. But I was hoping for something up there with the palidan capstone. A bonus to str modifiers or power attack wouldve been awesome, and served to benefit thf more.

I did indeed mention double frenzy which would make them even on strength bonus as you say 53 to 52 so even bonus wise what the hell good does +1 do for the Barb besides waste a slot? I find it hard to believe that a TWF Barbarian will be able to double frenzy much to be honest. That is the only way a TWF Barbarian would really come out ahead. That would be a significant amount of self damage when hasted.

[Borror0]

Litany of the Dead puts them equal, if you can find one of these. Can add Double Madstone for 60 Str.

Corrections in red.


Level 20 Barbarian
18 (Base)
+5 (Levels)
+4 (Tome)
+1 (DT Docent)
+6 (Item)
+8 (Mighty Rage)
+4 (Power Rage IV)
+2 (Capstone)
+2 (Frenzy)
+4 (Death Frenzy)
+2 (Rage)
+2 (Madstone)
Total = 58

(Secret build tip)
Fighter 12/Barbarian 8 (Kensai II/FB I)
18 (Base)
+5 (Levels)
+4 (Tome)
+3 (Enh.)
+1 (DT Docent)
+6 (Item)
+4 (Rage)
+2 (Power Rage II)
+8 (Power Surge)
+2 (Frenzy)
+2 (Rage)
+2 (Madstone)
Total = 57

[EinarMal]

Litany of the Dead puts them equal, if you can find one of these. Can add Double Madstone for 60 Str.

Corrections in red.

Those aren't corrections I said without adding in outside buffs since those are equal who cares. Technically you might as well count +5 tomes because that will end up being the max per PnP...

They are even, as I said for all practical purposes depending on +1 here or there. I was not trying to calculate the max strength but simply comparing the two. It is the two ways I think to hit maximum strength in the game assuming whatever buffs. The Barbarian is at that strength for longer, if they can take in 4 damage per swing on themselves (at 168 swings per minute) or more.

[GlassCannon]

Nice, but I have a feeling TWF'ing barbs are gonna be a little miffed.

Guessing most TWF'ing barbs are gonna be 18/2.

Yep, most indeed. A few will remain Barb Pure however.

[Blahish]

Not bad at all.

[vtecfiend99]

Those aren't corrections I said without adding in outside buffs since those are equal who cares. Technically you might as well count +5 tomes because that will end up being the max per PnP...

They are even, as I said for all practical purposes depending on +1 here or there. I was not trying to calculate the max strength but simply comparing the two. It is the two ways I think to hit maximum strength in the game assuming whatever buffs. The Barbarian is at that strength for longer, if they can take in 4 damage per swing on themselves (at 168 swings per minute) or more.

Anyone that actually read your post knows that you were talking without outside buffs. For some reason Bor feels such a strong need to coorect people that he does it when they don't need correcting.

[Borror0]

Anyone that actually read your post knows that you were talking without outside buffs.
Which outside buff? Rage potions and Madstone boots?

[EinarMal]

Which outside buff? Rage potions and Madstone boots?

Basically the point was not to compare max buffed strength numbers, but to point out that Barbarians are not very far ahead of Fighters in terms of max strength once power surge comes in (as it was initially stated anyway for Kensai enhancements).

I was merely pointing out that Fighter 12/Barbarian 8 can equal the strength of a 20th level Barbarian nothing more, even with the capstone and mighty rage.

Adding in things that don't distinguish between the two, like madstone or rage pots, I left out as I stated.

In terms of total DPS Fighter 12/Barbarian 8, not to mention Fighter 12/Ranger 6 compare very well to Barbarian 20 (including the capstone listed here). It might be useful to point that out to the Devs if that was not really their intent. It would seem to me a class like Barbarians, with a PrE like FB that essentially has you killing yourself might want to actually have the highest DPS in the game (which it will not).

[vtecfiend99]

So, if I am adding right, max strength at 20 for a full Barb ignoring buffs anyone can have



Which outside buff? Rage potions and Madstone boots?

Duh?

[Borror0]

Basically the point was not to compare max buffed strength numbers, but to point out that Barbarians are not very far ahead of Fighters in terms of max strength once power surge comes in (as it was initially stated anyway for Kensai enhancements).
I got that. I was simply putting numbers one might expect to see what the real Str could be like.

[Rog]

was that a min 2 geataxe i put in shortii hand yes i believe it was...goodmove:)

[EinarMal]

I got that. I was simply putting numbers one might expect to see what the real Str could be like.

Sure no problem....yes it is a very high strength at level 20, 60 will be very obtainable I would bet once all the new gear comes out.

[Angelus_dead]

The big other difference is staying power, the 12/8 build has far more hit points when raged compared to the 12/6 build.
Incorrect and backwards.

The 12/6 build has much more reflex due to his ranger levels, and more importantly he can take rog2 or monk2 to get Evasion. That's a lot better for self-defense than the hitpoint differential of barb levels.


I would not count on that build being king for long as that is clearly not what the game is going for as max DPS. No way do they want anyone to out DPS a level 20 Barbarian except perhaps a Rogue with 100% sneak attacks.
Well, it's true that the devs probably don't like the results produced by their design accidents. But they've exhibited a great reluctance to change previous rules to fix those things.

[apacheizm23]

Not bad at all..

[Inspire]

Both my Barbarians Pearce(2wF) and Woad(2hF) will be staying pure and taking this capstone. When a different capstone comes out that will benefit Pearce more for 2wF I will take that instead.

[Desteria]

Edit: Human would be the best Pure Race 2wf barb IMO. Sub toughness for khopesh and add stunning blow...but then again hes not WF...

HAFLING the new master race!!!! Guile + TWF is lots of nice damage added!

And I would not be suprised to still see a lot of 6rgr/12barb/2x TWF barbs beacsue thats still a very valid build as well.

[GlassCannon]

Though, my Barb is a THF, so I'm happy with this specific capstone and will probably remain pure if I can figure out a way to get enough feats.

You don't need to take Toughness 26 times.... :rolleyes:

[Cold_Stele]

No surprises with how this capstone turned out.

The TWF Rapier Barbs may not be dead, but the devs are going to make **** well sure no one's ever going to roll another one...

(In other words this, plus the removal of Crit Rage as well as FB only working on 19-20, along with the THF boosts all cearly show which way the devs are pushing Barbs).

[EinarMal]

Incorrect and backwards.

The 12/6 build has much more reflex due to his ranger levels, and more importantly he can take rog2 or monk2 to get Evasion. That's a lot better for self-defense than the hitpoint differential of barb levels.


Well, it's true that the devs probably don't like the results produced by their design accidents. But they've exhibited a great reluctance to change previous rules to fix those things.

Well that of course depends on the situation so is hardly incorrect, evasion is great when you need it, it is impossible to say how much you will need it when facing the hard hitting raid bosses of Mod 9.

[EinarMal]

No surprises with how this capstone turned out.

The TWF Rapier Barbs may not be dead, but the devs are going to make **** well sure no one's ever going to roll another one...

(In other words this, plus the removal of Crit Rage as well as FB only working on 19-20, along with the THF boosts all cearly show which way the devs are pushing Barbs).

Yeah personally I kind of like it, I wish THF could be brought more in line. My suspicion, is that they will take another look at the combat animations and make sure that THF is not at 50% swing rate but more like 60-65% of TWF. That combined with glancing blow effects would even things out greatly.

Now would be a good time to re-work the animation timings for BAB 20 (at least I really hope so).

I don't know why they don't simplify the animations a bit, you need only 4 attacks to make TWF, ITWF, GTWF, and STWF(Ranger's Only) work. Then you simply make sure that the S&B and THF take less time to complete so that it comes out at about 100 attacks per minute (similiar to the texas 3-step now for THF) and 160 or so for the TWF with feats.

[EinarMal]

Incorrect and backwards.

The 12/6 build has much more reflex due to his ranger levels, and more importantly he can take rog2 or monk2 to get Evasion. That's a lot better for self-defense than the hitpoint differential of barb levels.


Well, it's true that the devs probably don't like the results produced by their design accidents. But they've exhibited a great reluctance to change previous rules to fix those things.

I will also point out here that this is true of Barbarian 20 as well, the truth is 6 Ranger/2 Monk and 6 Ranger/2 Rogue is broken, we all know it.

Basically everyone should delete or not roll a melee character unless you include at least 6 levels or Ranger and have evasion.

There is zero reason for someone today to roll a Barbarian, you either go Ranger 18+, Fighter 12/Ranger 6, or if you already have an existing character Barbarian 14/Ranger 6 with crit rage. The enhancement system has completely broken the game.

[Angelus_dead]

I will also point out here that this is true of Barbarian 20 as well, the truth is 6 Ranger/2 Monk and 6 Ranger/2 Rogue is broken, we all know it.
Well, there's a reason not to take builds based on Ran6: there can be a bug that'll prevent you from ever training GTWF later. I haven't been keeping track of the current state of the bug, but it's been a real obstacle before, although obviously it can't be viewed as an intentionally-designed ddrawback of that class combo.


The enhancement system has completely broken the game.
Certainly not.

You are conflating "the enhancement system" with "a small number of poorly-planned enhancements" and "the inability to respec class levels".

The enhancement system itself is fine. What's wrong is that on a few occasions a few devs put in an enhancement that was too powerful like Tempest I or Crit Rage II, because they neglected to correctly evaluate the difference between multiplicative and additive bonuses. And then the problem was cemented since those enhancements require X class levels and characters can't respec class levels, making the devs afraid to nerf the problems.

[Angelus_dead]

The enhancement system has completely broken the game.
I'll take this opportunity to point out that the D&D game design regarding balance between weapon styles was already broken long before DDO got to it.

The range within which additive and multiplicative bonuses can be interestingly balanced is very small. After some time, the option with the highest multipliers will just grow in a way the alternative can't keep pace with. What was balanced at level cap X won't will be out of whack at X+6.

The only way to truly fix that is to make all options multiplicative, which can be done either explicitly or covertly. I'll describe an example of the explicit technique below:

The key is for characters to get a percentage multiplier to weapon damage, similar to how Potency works for spell damage. To start with, you would remove the weapon-handedness multipliers for Strength and Power Attack, and instead declare that a two-hand weapon gets a +50% multiplier to damage bonuses, and maybe also give the offhand a -50% or -25% penalty. That would mean that effects like Inspire Courage and Favored Enemy aren't as TWF-biased as they are now, because a +8 song buff would become +12 for a greataxe, but maybe only +4 to an offhand rapier.

With that framework in place, the devs can provide additional multipliers from other build choices when needed to improve balance. For example, each tier of Kensai might provide a 5% bonus to mainhand physical damage.

The key to this idea is that since attack-speed bonuses have a multiplicative effect on the damage sources you've got, the direct way for another combat style to compete with that is to also be a multiplicative bonus. Basically, the proposed weapon-multiplier effect is a characteristic which behaves much like attack speed in terms of improving DPS, but which is not attack speed. Thus the devs don't need to find a way to justify giving all four full-BAB classes the same +10% attack rate.

[ThrasherGT]

I'll take this opportunity to point out that the D&D game design regarding balance between weapon styles was already broken long before DDO got to it.

The range within which additive and multiplicative bonuses can be interestingly balanced is very small. After some time, the option with the highest multipliers will just grow in a way the alternative can't keep pace with. What was balanced at level cap X won't will be out of whack at X+6.

The only way to truly fix that is to make all options multiplicative, which can be done either explicitly or covertly. I'll describe an example of the explicit technique below:

The key is for characters to get a percentage multiplier to weapon damage, similar to how Potency works for spell damage. To start with, you would remove the weapon-handedness multipliers for Strength and Power Attack, and instead declare that a two-hand weapon gets a +50% multiplier to damage bonuses, and maybe also give the offhand a -50% or -25% penalty. That would mean that effects like Inspire Courage and Favored Enemy aren't as TWF-biased as they are now, because a +8 song buff would become +12 for a greataxe, but maybe only +4 to an offhand rapier.

With that framework in place, the devs can provide additional multipliers from other build choices when needed to improve balance. For example, each tier of Kensai might provide a 5% bonus to mainhand physical damage.

The key to this idea is that since attack-speed bonuses have a multiplicative effect on the damage sources you've got, the direct way for another combat style to compete with that is to also be a multiplicative bonus. Basically, the proposed weapon-multiplier effect is a characteristic which behaves much like attack speed in terms of improving DPS, but which is not attack speed. Thus the devs don't need to find a way to justify giving all four full-BAB classes the same +10% attack rate.

Ding! Ding! Ding! <Crowd cheers> We Have A Winner!

I had to read this twice to make sure it made as much sense the second time!
This is, by far, the best solution for this that I have seen.............(If You posted this before AD,I didn't see it)

Great Job!

[Aesop]

Ya know ... this one feels ok. Not overpowered, not broken, not worthless... good balance.

My new favorite Capstone I think. I give it an A

Aesop

[Tanka]

Obligatory "Cheat Death sucks" post.

[Dynar]

I like it!
Glad to see some Two-Handed love!

RAWR!!!

[Rindalathar]

Well... it's better than the rogue, at least!

QFT a million times over

[Nick_RC]

HAFLING the new master race!!!! Guile + TWF is lots of nice damage added!

And I would not be suprised to still see a lot of 6rgr/12barb/2x TWF barbs beacsue thats still a very valid build as well.

Hate to tell ya but u shouldnt really be getting sneak attack all that much;) Guile = losers mentality (in the nicest posible way:D). Human/WF. And 12 Ftr > 12 Barb significantly:)

[Nick_RC]

Is it just me or is this capstone thread sorta dead....hell does anyone care about barbs still.... or has the 'viscious' and the 'ranger' turned of but all of the most dedicated fans?

[Borror0]

Not overpowered, not broken, not worthless... good balance.
Agreed. I feel exactly the same. If you look at the discussion in the first pages, you'll there is actually a question on whether not you multiclass.


Obligatory "Cheat Death sucks" post.
QFT

Is it just me or is this capstone thread sorta dead....hell does anyone care about barbs still.... or has the 'viscious' and the 'ranger' turned of but all of the most dedicated fans?
I think has to do with the fact there is nothing much to say: it's not overpowered nor underpowered.

No one is complaining that it sucks or that they have to reroll.

[maddmatt70]

Capstones are great and all but a splash screen with an approximate release date for mod 9 would be far better. How about we just forgo the last two previews and instead get a 2 weeks from now or coming next month splash screen or similar forum post instead.

[Aeneas]

So what is the max strength with all obnoxious possible modifiers including super rare potions and items? (+3 str pot, scourge choker maxed out blood rage, all the madstones)

[Aeneas]

Level 20 Barbarian
18 (Base)
5 (Levels)
4 (assumed tome max in mod 9 raid)
6 (Item)
8 (Mighty Rage)
4 (Power Rage IV)
2 (Capstone)
4 (Death Frenzy)
3 (house d stat pot)
4 (double madstone)
6 (Scourge Choker blood rage)
2 (rage pot)
1 (litany of the dead)
3 (shroud or DT exceptional bonuses)

Total = 68?

[Borror0]

So what is the max strength with all obnoxious possible modifiers including super rare potions and items? (+3 str pot, scourge choker maxed out blood rage, all the madstones)
Probably something like:

Level 20 Barbarian
18 (Base)
+5 (Levels)
+4 (Tome)
+1 (Exceptional Strength I)
+2 (Exceptional Strength II)
+6 (Item)
+8 (Mighty Rage)
+4 (Power Rage IV)
+2 (Capstone)
+2 (Frenzy)
+4 (Death Frenzy)
+2 (Rage)
+2 (Madstone)
+2 (Madstone)
+6 (Scourge Chocker)
+1 (Litany of the Dead)
+3 (Alchemical)
Total = 70

Might have forgotten something, but I don't think so.

EDIT: 72, if you count triple Madstone.

[Borror0]

Total = 68?
You forgot normal Frenzy, but you counted the Scourge Chocker as +6, when some part of it doesn't stack with Madstone.

At least, last time I checked.

[Aeneas]

You forgot normal Frenzy, but you counted the Scourge Chocker as +6, when some part of it doesn't stack with Madstone.

At least, last time I checked.

Oh, kk, i wouldn't know, i wear it on my rogue and can't do the madstones cause they keep me from scroll and wand casting.

But now that i think about it, wouldn't 12 fighter, 3 barb, 5 ranger be a better way to go (in terms of maxing strength in obnoxious situational kind of way)?

Level 12 fighter/3 barb/5 ranger
18 (Base)
+5 (Levels)
+4 (Tome)
+1 (Exceptional Strength I)
+2 (Exceptional Strength II)
+6 (Item)
+4 (barb rage)
+1 (Power rage 1)
+8 (Power surge)
+2 (Rage)
+2 (Madstone)
+2 (Madstone)
+4 (Scourge Choker)
+1 (Litany of the Dead)
+3 (Alchemical)
+2 (ram's might)
+3 (fighter's str enh)
Total = 68

You would lose 2 from losing greater rage (possibly 2 more if mighty rage goes in, although we can't be sure and the name of the capstone is awfully close) , 2 from capstone, 3 from power rage 2-4, and 6 from death frenzy for a net loss of 13 (maybe 15). However, with the mix you gain 8 from power surge, 2 from ram's might, and 3 from fighter enh which would match the pure barb (assuming no SRD correct mighty rage). On the other hand you'd gain 3 combat feats, get twf, bow str, and diehard for free as well as the fighter combat enhancements and 2 favored enemies (sacrificing power rage 1 at barb 3 and only taking 2 barb levels would let you take tempest 1 and get ITWF and manyshot for free as well as ranger dex 1 and 2 and all that jazz). This seems like a more ideal mix for TWF's as glancing blow damage is nil anyway and they'd still have bonkers strength and a few more feats to play with vs. the pure barb.


Has it been stated anywhere that mighty rage is going to be granted to barb's at 20 in addition to the capstone called might, or are we all just assuming that might is something different?

[Angelus_dead]

Might have forgotten something, but I don't think so.
Triple madstone.

[Borror0]

Triple madstone.
Thought about it, but thought it was not worth mentioning since it's only in one quest. Added as a footnote.

[Mayen]

sort of meh about this capstone. Its not bad persay but its very very underwhelming.
DPS increase of going pure 20 barb instead of 18 with haste (this includes mighty rage)
TWF 7.66 DPS about
THF 6 DPS about (pre glancing blows increase since we dont have the specifics)

Now compare that to something like the paladin with haste (will leave zeal out of it)
TWF 40.215 DPS about
THF 21 DPS about

The paladin capstone in my opinion is the basis of what a good capstone provides, this one feels more like its slapped on in a hurry. At least its worth the 2 ap it costs unlike the rogue capstone though.

[Borror0]

The paladin capstone in my opinion is the basis of what a good capstone provides
Wrong. The paladin capstone is the perfect example of an overpowered back-loaded feature meant to try to compensate for other overpowered front-loaded feature that can be gained by multiclassing (such as Evasion). This is not the right way to fix the problem and it is sad we have got to this point.

The barbarian capstone is clearly the best balanced capstone.

[Mayen]

Ok several things. First its highly ill advised to tell someone wrong on an opinion, which is what you have stated, instead it is more productive to state that you disagree.
Ignoring that you state a problem of what the capstones are being used for. In my opinion they should NOT be a tool to TRY and fix the game as they are now and as you seem to think they should be. What ends up happening there is exactly what is happening here. You get nice powerful bonuses for going pure in some classes and in others rather pitiful excuses for capstone enhancments in others.

[Borror0]

Its highly ill advised to tell someone wrong on an opinion
You call it opinion, I call it conclusion. Do you see how it changes everything?

Anyway, sorry if it offended you.

In my opinion they should NOT be a tool to TRY and fix the game as they are now and as you seem to think they should be. What ends up happening there is exactly what is happening here. You get nice powerful bonuses for going pure in some classes and in others rather pitiful excuses for capstone enhancments in others.
If capstones are not a tool to make pure classes attractive, then how do you fine what a good or bad capstone is?

[Mayen]

Calling it a conclusion (in this form a reasoned deduction or inference) still makes it your opinion on the subject, unless of course you are all knowing and your word is the only one that matters. In which case you are either god or delusional.

And on your second question, i define a good or bad capstone as something USEFUL and unique to that specific class. Paladin has stacking good/light damage which is both useful and unique while barb has +2 str and increased glancing blows which is slightly useful but not unique at all. That is how I personally define paladin as a good capstone, barb as a mediocre capstone at best and rogue as a horrible capstone as what it provides is both fairly useless and not unique.

[Pyromaniac]

I have to ask - does anyone think the rogue capstone is 'good'? Cause I haven't seen it yet :)

I'd like to see all capstones released, as personally I'm not rolling another character up until I know the rules of the game (i.e. capstones). Either that or a full respec option.

This is a meh capstone imo.

[Borror0]

Calling it a conclusion (in this form a reasoned deduction or inference) still makes it your opinion on the subject, unless of course you are all knowing and your word is the only one that matters.
Here's how I separate an opinion from a conclusion:

My opinion on the capstone's power is whether or not it is attractive to me.


My conclusion on the capstone's power is based on:


If it will be sufficient to convince a few to stay pure, based on their personal preferences.
If it is so powerful that multiclassing would be a severe mistake for most people.


If the answer to one is yes and the answer to one is no, then it is a good and balanced capstone. If the answer to one is no, then it is underpowered (see rogue capstone). If the answer to two is yes, then it is overpowered. (This is the simplistic version. There are more factors to consider, but it gets too long to explain. For example, the paladin capstone remains overpowered even if 18pal/ftr is the optimal choice for Defenders of Siberys because the capstone is OP on the DPS side of things.)

Basically, the difference is that I (try to) separate myself from my personal bias and estimate how it will impact the game based on my intuition and knowledge. It is not perfect, but it is an estimation. It's not based on personal preferences put on how I think it will impact the game.

To call you wrong on that is, IMO, not rude. If you are offended, then I am sorry.

And on your second question, i define a good or bad capstone as something USEFUL and unique to that specific class. Paladin has stacking good/light damage which is both useful and unique while barb has +2 str and increased glancing blows which is slightly useful but not unique at all.
Again, I am not sure I understand your point here.

Could you please define "unique"? Do you mean unique as "never seen before"? If so, would +10% Competence melee alacrity be a good fighter capstone? It is clearly a powerful (ie useful) capstone, but it is not unique as Tempest I grants the same bonus but it certainly is worth grabbing.

[BlackSteel]

Probably something like:

Level 20 Barbarian
18 (Base)
+5 (Levels)
+4 (Tome)
+1 (Exceptional Strength I)
+2 (Exceptional Strength II)
+6 (Item)
+8 (Mighty Rage)
+4 (Power Rage IV)
+2 (Capstone)
+2 (Frenzy)
+4 (Death Frenzy)
+2 (Rage)
+2 (Madstone)
+2 (Madstone)
+4 (Scourge Chocker)
+1 (Litany of the Dead)
+3 (Alchemical)
Total = 68

Might have forgotten something, but I don't think so.

EDIT: 70, if you count triple Madstone.

choker should be +6, its +8, but 2 doesnt stack

[Strykersz]

choker should be +6, its +8, but 2 doesnt stack

Can you post a ss where you receive +8 from blood rage?

[Nick_RC]

Can you post a ss where you receive +8 from blood rage?

Choker is +6 Blacksteel is correct. 2 Doesnt stack with spell rage.

[Borror0]

choker should be +6, its +8, but 2 doesnt stack
D'oh. Brain fart. Changing that.

[BlackSteel]

Choker is +6 Blacksteel is correct. 2 Doesnt stack with spell rage.

ty, I hate posting images

[Strykersz]

I'm not disputing that it ultimately grants +6. What I'm saying is, has anyone ever actually seen blood rage grant +8 to their str, whether naked, madstoned, spell raged, whatever. Or alternatively, have you ever seen the third tier give you +4 str by itself.

[Borror0]

I'm not disputing that it ultimately grants +6. What I'm saying is, has anyone ever actually seen blood rage grant +8 to their str, whether naked, madstoned, spell raged, whatever. Or alternatively, have you ever seen the third tier give you +4 str by itself.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=124065

[Strykersz]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=124065

I've read that thread. I've also seen the ss's in the Definitive loot thread. No where have I seen a ss of someone being granted +4 str from the third tier blood rage. Typically, this is chalked up to madstone or rage spell not stacking. Hence my challenge; post a ss with no buffs other than third tier blood rage, in which you have +4 str over your unbuffed state.

[BlackSteel]

it certainly does, was looking at it last night

[DrWorm0]

most balanced capstone I've seen yet IMO.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Eladrin,

Given that now the Barbarian Capstone, THF/ITHF/GTHF, Frenzied Berzerker, and a Warforged Racial enhancement are all promising a chance or increased chance to add additional damage on GB (Glancing Blows), any chance of letting us know what that percentage chance for each (or in general) is going to be?

There is a bit of concern over the damage gap between THF & TWF, as well as this is a good time to plan for new or current builds, to decide how to finish them, and having an idea of the % chances here makes a big difference in looking at how viable THF really is. Say it is 1% chance per item (Feat or AP or PrE), then we are talking a top of around 10% chance (Capstone + 3 Feats + 3 FB AP's + 3 WF AP's)... but if it is like 3% each, then you are at 30%... 10% vs. 30% is a HUGE difference... especially when considering that that "extra damage" should mean that things like Holy, Banishing, Vorpal, etc should all be able to "go off" (This would be a good chance to confirm that thinks like Vorpal/Banshing/Puncturing/Wounding/Disruption/Smiting/etc all are enabled, not just Holy/Alignment/Elemental damage... cuz that also makes a HUUUUGE difference).

Look at it this way, when surrounded by a bunch of mobs, if I have a 30% chance that a GB could trigger only Holy/Alignment/Elemental Damage, that is nice, but probably not quite enough to catch up to TFW... adding On-Hit items, like Wounding/Disruption/Weakening/Maladriot adds some spice, but the real trick is if the On-Critical or On-20 (Vorpal/Limb-Chopper) are enabled on GB hits, then THF has some decent potential...

So how about it? Can you confirm On-Hit and On-Critical/20 Effects, and the % chances we are talking about????

[Strykersz]

it certainly does, was looking at it last night

Did you get this?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/strykersz/norage.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/strykersz/rage3.jpg

[crschoen]

Thats nice, just that +2 str is a good boost even your barbarian is not use 2handed weapons.

But all that THF stuff makes me wonder if that last extra swing you'll get at lvl 20 (20 BAB) will compensate for the fact that you attack 20% slower with 15 BAB then with 14 BAB.

THIS. The most irritating thing for my pure barb (level 16) has been the slow animation on the last attack. It's quite annoying to watch my barb do that slow, 360 degree swing in the time it takes TWF's to get in about 3 or 4 hits.

[Borror0]

But all that THF stuff makes me wonder if that last extra swing you'll get at lvl 20 (20 BAB) will compensate for the fact that you attack 20% slower with 15 BAB then with 14 BAB.
There is so many reasons to not do it that I would be extremely surprised that it would see the day.

I'll tell you the most compelling for Turbine: waste of money.

Nothing forces them to insert an extra swing at level 20. No PnP fidelity (if anything, fidelity says to not add one). No serious advantage. Not even one serious compelling argument for it. If they want to spend that money in animation, fixing the huge slowdown 15 BAB will be much more effective than adding a sixth swing.

Argument one.

Not doing anything will not upset players
Poorly implementing a sixth swing will upset players.


Argument two:

Doing something costs money.
Doing nothing costs no money.


Argument three:

If money has to be spend, it could be spent on something that does not upset players.


Argument four:

Other than a slowdown, a sixth swing represents other challenges that are not worth facing.

I doubt that Turbine will mess up this bad but who knows.

They made some serious mistakes in the past but I think that one is obvious enough.

[query]

I can now RP MY GREAT weapon swinging, laughing at those poking with their two TOOTHPICKS!

As for Guile: my Halfling Barb will see if that works when the time comes when I hit L 20......If in the life of my playing, flanking happens a lot, MAYBE, but I doubt it.

[Gryphton]

I will just be waiting here until I see something for the other 80% of the barbs.

Granted we all know TWF is superior to THF and I'm glad they are making efforts to balance it a bit more. But obviously this is not for the vast majority of the barbs out there.

[Renegade66]

Definitely looks like an 18/2 is the way to go for my currently pure barbarian. But as someone said earlier - at least its not the rogue capstone kinda bad.

Tend to agree. Maybe instead of Cleave, it might be worth a feat to get your Reflex save up a bit. I'm thinking the Evasion is going to be very very nice. If not that, I would think Stunning Blow over Cleave or even Oversized TWF for the +2 to hit the new mobs with potentially higher AC or to counter the Power Attack enhancements.

Hopefully, we'll have a better idea on other Barbarian capstones before having to take the splash level plunge.

[Deathseeker]

Also, we all need to keep in mind that aside from the Capstones, we don't know what enhancements and abilities these classes will be getting from 17 to 20. Nor do we know if any additional enhancements will be added below 16.

We already know what the first 2 levels of rogue/fighter do, so when making the decision to splash or not splash, just keep in mind that you are comparing 2 levels of something mostly known to a couple levels of something still unknown.

The dev's do know what the Barb will get at 19 and 20. Im guessing the capstone was likely balanced against this and that's why it may look a little underwhelming.

Or, not...Im applying some faith there :)

[Oreg]

The Barbarian Capstone we're unveiling today seems like a natural fit for any that choose to take the Frenzied Berserker prestige enhancement line, though we think that any level 20 Barbarian is likely to find themselves content with the bonuses they receive from...

Barbarian Might
Prereqs: Level 20 Barbarian
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Your biceps are frequently mistaken for slabs of ham. Your strength is increased by 2, and when wielding two handed weapons you have increased glancing blow damage and an increased chance of applying weapon special effects on glancing blows.

Nice try but I am still not respeccing out of critical rage. :mad:
Bring it on.......

[BlackSteel]

Nice try but I am still not respeccing out of critical rage. :mad:
Bring it on.......

capstone has nothing to do with critical rage.............

[BlackSteel]

I definetly get up to 52 str while wearing the choker, so it has to be +6, considering my barb doesnt have a +3 tome, LOTD, or any exceptional str item.

30+10 rage + 4 madstone + 2 rage + 6 choker

yes the last tier which says +4 str / con doesnt actually give +4 str / con. But if you have all 3 up you will notice your total is +6 regardless of how many madstones or the rage spell, etc.

[Pyromaniac]

Nice try but I am still not respeccing out of critical rage. :mad:
Bring it on.......

I'm with Oreg, crit rage will never leave my barbarian enhancements :)

[Oreg]

capstone has nothing to do with critical rage.............

Don't be naive. This capstone has everything to do with manipulating TWF barbs into respeccing into THF enhancements and thus once and for all eliminating critical rage.

[BlackSteel]

not hardly, and crit rage isnt exclusive to twf barbs

the capstone is meant to favor thf, b/c theres a perception that its not even close in comparison. But noone, not ONE player, is going to respec out of twf into thf just to use a capstone. Too much goes into gear and build points to change fighting styles like that. A thf barb with 17 dex, yeh that doesnt feel gimpy, even if 3 of it happened to be a tome, thats still alot of build points wasted.

thats like saying all the warchanting battlebards should be rerolled into something with higher charisma to better use their capstone. It simply just doesnt make sense.

yes this particular capstone catered to a particular playstyle. so what.

[Borror0]

This capstone has everything to do with manipulating TWF barbs into respeccing into THF enhancements and thus once and for all eliminating critical rage.
Why would a THF barb not want Critical Rage?

[Deathseeker]

Don't be naive. This capstone has everything to do with manipulating TWF barbs into respeccing into THF enhancements and thus once and for all eliminating critical rage.

While I absolutely believe the goal of the devs is to, at some point, have no crit rage players left, I don't see the connection you are making at all. If you were happy with crit rage prior to this, there is certainly not enough here to make you change your mind.

So basically, while agree with your fashion sense in general on wearing a tinfoil hat, it seems to be on crooked and a couple sizes too large...

[Oreg]

not hardly, and crit rage isnt exclusive to twf barbs

the capstone is meant to favor thf, b/c theres a perception that its not even close in comparison. But noone, not ONE player, is going to respec out of twf into thf just to use a capstone. Too much goes into gear and build points to change fighting styles like that. A thf barb with 17 dex, yeh that doesnt feel gimpy, even if 3 of it happened to be a tome, thats still alot of build points wasted.

thats like saying all the warchanting battlebards should be rerolled into something with higher charisma to better use their capstone. It simply just doesnt make sense.

yes this particular capstone catered to a particular playstyle. so what.

Dude. Like I said in my post that you chose to respond to - this capstone is not good enough to make me respec from crit rage. Period. You asked me what it had to do with crit rage and I explained it to you. where you got all these other comparisons from is beyond me.

[Oreg]

While I absolutely believe the goal of the devs is to, at some point, have no crit rage players left, I don't see the connection you are making at all. If you were happy with crit rage prior to this, there is certainly not enough here to make you change your mind.

...

Correct. I agree with all of this. And it was the only comment I was making. I mean my post was only 12 words long - how did it confuse people?

[Oreg]

Why would a THF barb not want Critical Rage?

A thf barb would want it. But that is not what I said. A twf barb would not want to risk losing crit rage in order to get the thf enhancements needed to take advantage of the capstone is what I said.

By now it is clear that I didn't communicate this well so lemme put more words in and hopefully clear up the misconception that i apparently started.


For a twf barb like myself this capstone does nothing but give me 2 str. If I wanted to take advantage of this capstone completely I would have to respec to thf which would mean losing my crit rage enhancements. I will not be doing this .... And then I threw in a quick jab insinuating that the devs would purposefully here, and from here on, not provide enhancements for twf barbs because IMO they want to do away with the embarrassing mistake we all know and love as crit rage.

[Borror0]

If I wanted to take advantage of this capstone completely I would have to respec to thf which would mean losing my crit rage enhancements
Do you say this because you'd need Frenzied Berserker?

You could very well swap to ThF and just grab the capstone... or am I missing something?

[Tanka]

I believe he's lamenting that, as a TWF Barb, he won't get the THF splash damage increase that the capstone offers.

Which, well... Duh.

[Oreg]

Good god. I give up.

Fine. no more sarcasm. I will type out everything plainly.

I do not want to go thf. I will not respec out of twf. I do not like this capstone because it favors thf barbs. I may or may not go 20 barb now. I am sure you do not care.

Goodbye to this thread.

[Thorzian]

i barely got through the first page of this before the whining made me vomit a little in my mouth. the multiclassers dont get the capstones? too freakin bad. of course the powers of a class improve as the level does. ask a bunch of 4 year olds who have never played any kind of rpg or mmo and they will all tell ye that makes sense. noobs.

[query]

...and somehow ducks the Greataxe swung.....must be the animation speed.*

Okay, lemme know when the whining stops and the Flames are out.

*Goes off to see where Oreg went.*