A build idea that might be worth fleshing out.

[Timber]

Had a thought that Intimidate would be a great way to capitalize on the monk AC. So was thinking it might be a good idea to take a level of fighter first.

I don't know if this will work, considering all the stats a monk needs.But perhaps someone more capable at building toons can flesh this idea and make it work.

Halfling 14monk/ 2 fighter (32 point)

Stats:

Str- 12 +1 enhancement + 1 tome + 6 item = 20

Con - 14 + 6 item = 20

Dex- 16 + 2 enhancement + 4 level + 6 item = 28

Int - 12 + 1 tome = 13

Wis - 15 + 3 enchancement + 6 item = 24

Charisma - 10 + 6 item possibly = 16

Obviously +2 tomes on any of those stats will help

Hp-
132 + 80 (con, correct me if I am wrong) 20 + 30 + 10 + 36 + 30 + 18 (minos helm) = 336?

AC -
10 base
1 size
9 Dex
7 Wis
5 Combat expertise
1 Dodge feat
8 Bracers
5 Protection
1 Wind Stance
2 Centered

= 49 unbuffed without any terribly hard to get items

Intimidate -
-4 size
+ 19
+ 15
+ 4 Enhancement
+ 5 Feats
+ 3 Cha

= 41 unbuffed intimidate


Level 1 Fighter

Feats: Skill focus intim

Fighter feat: Weapon finesse

Level 2 Monk

Monk Feat: Dodge

Level 3 Monk

Feat: Bullheaded

Monk feat: CE

Level 4 monk

Stat increase Dex


Level 5 monk


Level 6 Monk

Feat: Toughness

Level 7 fighter

Fighter feat - 2 weapon fighting


Level 8 Monk

Stat increase Dex

Class feat: Power attack


Level 9 Monk


Level 10 Monk


Level 11 monk


Level 12 Monk

Stat Increase to Dex

Feat: Toughness


Level 13 Monk


Level 14 Monk

Level 15 Monk

Feat: Greater Two weapon fighting


Level 16 Monk

Stat increase Dex


Skill points on - Intimidate, Balance and Concentration. Spares can go where ever.

Enhancements-

Halfling Dex 1 and 2

Halfling luck (fort) 1

Halfling luck (reflex) 1

Halfling luck (will) 1

Way of Badger x 3

Monk Imp recovery x 3

Fists of light

Way of Air all 3

Racial toughness x 2

Way of Fire 1

Monk balance x 3

monk concentration x 3

Fighter Strength

Monk wisdom x 3

Fighter toughness 1

[esoitl]

In a way, why wouldn't it work?

Fighter isn't really introducing any new stats into the build and even with a low CHA score your Intimidate can get to be pretty high anyways, so no realy need to boost CHA. Even with a 6 base from being a WF or Dwarf a +2 tome and a +6 item can give you a 14 score which is a +2. Add in a +13 or +15 item if you can get it, your current 19 ranks or 23 at cap, GH, Head of Good Fortune, you're looking at a score of 42. If you can fit some of the +CHA skills from a Greensteel item you're working with a very reasonable score.

[Timber]

Ah ok. So sounds like a workable idea then.

I just figured that the lower charisma would damage intimidate, but a 42 intimidate sounds pretty good.

Also noticed that The way of the tenacious badger enhancements provide bonus to Intim Would they be worth taking?

[esoitl]

I personally don't care much for the animal paths beyond being a Patient Tortoise but if your build uses Intimidate being a Tenacious Badger is quite useful.

I actually forgot all about that since my Monk doesn't use Intimidate but that's a good idea. Also with the Fighter level you get an additional feat that can be used for either SF: Intimidate or Bull Headed. Go a 2nd Fighter level for an extra feat and a +1 STR enhancement too.... I think that will open up the Fighter Intimidate enhancement although that may be even level 1 Fighter.

[Timber]

A second level of fighter is a great idea. But when would I take the second level?

[Borror0]

I came up with a similar idea (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=154738) a while ago, but since the build couldn't get GTWF I felt it would not be worth building until M9.

[Timber]

I see where you are coming from Borror. GTWF would really be a big plus to the build. Fleshing it out now and it is turning out to be quite similar to your build. Mod 9 shouldn't be too far away, so waiting for it to make the build is alright.

Just realized that with fighter feats it is possible to get GTWF at 15.

[QuantumFX]

IMHO I wouldn’t go this route until we start seeing epic levels. And even then I wouldn’t take the fighter level at level 1. Monk 20 is giving a lot of nice stuff.

[Borror0]

Just realized that with fighter feats it is possible to get GTWF at 15.
It is but 1d6+3 sneak attack and UMD > bonus feat, in my book.

EDIT: I'll probably repost it when Module 9 comes. Thinking of naming it the Hateful Badger, but not yet set on the name.

IMHO I wouldn’t go this route until we start seeing epic levels. And even then I wouldn’t take the fighter level at level 1. Monk 20 is giving a lot of nice stuff.
Like? Outsider statue? Underwhelming. Perfect Slow Fall? /laugh

The biggest lost, here, is the 10/epic DR but Intimidate worth far more than 10 DR/epic in the world.

[Timber]

Fair enough Borror.I understand where ya coming from.

[Borror0]

Fair enough Borror.I understand where ya coming from.
You can't. We must pointlessly argue about a matter of preferences for at least six pages. You may use personal attacks if you want.

I let you start.

[Timber]

You can't. We must pointlessly argue about a matter of preferences for at least six pages. You may use personal attacks if you want.

I let you start.

Whats the sneak attack going to do? It's suppose to have aggro, so sneak attacking is worthless.

[Timber]

Have my attempted build ready, but preoccupied in DDO. So will post it for criticizing later.

[Borror0]

Whats the sneak attack going to do? It's suppose to have aggro, so sneak attacking is worthless.
The idea is adaptability.

By going halfling and monk, your Intimidate is not going to be as reliable as the one of a fighter or paladin intimitank. Furthermore, monks lack a PrE to generate extra hate the way Stalwart Defender's and Defender of Siberys' defensive stances do. The Intimidate is going to be high enough to hit anything reliably except for raid bosses, and maybe few rare red named exceptions.

Most intimitanks now also grab either GTWF or GTHF and Power Attack, or plan to by level 20. While intimitanking is really helpful and fun, there are some moments where DPS just is what is needed. In those moments, intimitanks switch to a mode where they will deal higher DPS, since it is what is needed.

Sneak attacks are for those two situations.

If the raid boss cannot be reliability hit with Intimidate, well you've got 1d6+9 sneak attack to cover up. In a situation where DPS is needed, you're not stuck like a lot of monks in a stance of abysmally low DPS, you at least gain an extra 11.5 sneak attack (pre-Tharne's), plus your +5 from Power Attack.

Oh, and you're not a total drain if there is another intimitank in the group: you can still dish out decent DPS.

[Timber]

The idea is adaptability.

By going halfling and monk, your Intimidate is not going to be as reliable as the one of a fighter or paladin intimitank. Furthermore, monks lack a PrE to generate extra hate the way Stalwart Defender's and Defender of Siberys' defensive stances do. The Intimidate is going to be high enough to hit anything reliably except for raid bosses, and maybe few rare red named exceptions.

Most intimitanks now also grab either GTWF or GTHF and Power Attack, or plan to by level 20. While intimitanking is really helpful and fun, there are some moments where DPS just is what is needed. In those moments, intimitanks switch to a mode where they will deal higher DPS, since it is what is needed.

Sneak attacks are for those two situations.

If the raid boss cannot be reliability hit with Intimidate, well you've got 1d6+9 sneak attack to cover up. In a situation where DPS is needed, you're not stuck like a lot of monks in a stance of abysmally low DPS, you at least gain an extra 11.5 sneak attack (pre-Tharne's), plus your +5 from Power Attack.

Oh, and you're not a total drain if there is another intimitank in the group: you can still dish out decent DPS.

You've had to much practice with pointless arguing lol. I will rebut with your wrong. Somehow your wrong. So there.

I'd be such a bad lawyer :)

[QuantumFX]

The biggest lost, here, is the 10/epic DR but Intimidate worth far more than 10 DR/epic in the world.

DR 10/Epic and the Capstone. I don’t know about your monk but mine can have a blast with his ki decay getting a +1 modifier.

[query]

I'll take the capstone, then the one level of fighter. After all, the monk's ascended already so who gives a cra* about what else the monk learns. Monk-y can go learn Epic origami for all I care now :p

[Timber]

Finished build. Feel free to tear it apart.

[CSFurious]

i think that i would want my capped monk to be level 20 before i started to splash


I'll take the capstone, then the one level of fighter. After all, the monk's ascended already so who gives a cra* about what else the monk learns. Monk-y can go learn Epic origami for all I care now :p

[Timber]

i think that i would want my capped monk to be level 20 before i started to splash

True that losing DR 10/epic is not a good thing. But the level cap will reach epics and having intimidate as a class skill can only be helpful early. I can wait for my DR 10/epic.

[Borror0]

DR 10/Epic and the Capstone. I don’t know about your monk but mine can have a blast with his ki decay getting a +1 modifier.
A monk without Intimidate is a gimped monk. There. I said it.

[Timber]

A monk without Intimidate is a gimped monk. There. I said it.

Borror doesn't beat around the bush like I do. hehe. But yeah whats the point of DR 10/epic if ya not going to get aggro, to use it.

[Borror0]

But yeah whats the point of DR 10/epic if ya not going to get aggro, to use it.
Better even, what is the point of having high AC, Improved Evasion, high saves, SR and DR 10/epic if you are to never use it?

Why not just have non-low DPS and, well, errr... not be a monk? (Let's face it. All monks are stuck with low DPS, no matter how good at DPS you want to make them). Of all I listed, you're going to only gain of Improved Evasion when not having aggro. AC and DR on cleaving mobs. You may get hit by a few lost swing but... it is kind of lost and not worth the trade off, unless you have Intimidate.

Monks have the same problem as paladins, in that aspect.

[Timber]

Better even, what is the point of having high AC, Improved Evasion, high saves, SR and DR 10/epic if you are to never use it?

Why not just have non-low DPS and, well, errr... not be a monk?

Credit where credit is due. The Imp evasion will help them dodge those nasty traps. Rofl.

Everything you say rings true.

[Lifespawn]

Whats the sneak attack going to do? It's suppose to have aggro, so sneak attacking is worthless.

i have this build 1 rogue 15 monk taking 1 lvl of ftr when cap goes up

little thing called unbalancing strike from the water stance line allows you to sneak attack even while having aggro so intim hit em unbalancing strike and whack away couldn't be better :).

Edit also can cast nofail heal scrolls on himself and have an ac of 72 self buffed.

and 1d6+19 sneak attack damage while you have aggro is nice.

[Timber]

i have this build 1 rogue 15 monk taking 1 lvl of ftr when cap goes up

little thing called unbalancing strike from the water stance line allows you to sneak attack even while having aggro so intim hit em unbalancing strike and whack away couldn't be better :).

Edit also can cast nofail heal scrolls on himself and have an ac of 72 self buffed.

and 1d6+19 sneak attack damage while you have aggro is nice.

I see your points. From what you and Borror have both written it seems alot better to take a level of rogue and to go Water stance. Unbalancing strike + UMD + d6 to damage to help make up for the lack of dps seems to outweigh the extra feats provided by the fighter level. Also if you are a halfling I believe there are enhancements to boost sneak damage which might be worth taking to increase dps.

[Borror0]

little thing called unbalancing strike from the water stance line allows you to sneak attack even while having aggro so intim hit em unbalancing strike and whack away couldn't be better :).
Can't believe I forgot Unbalancing Strike! :eek: Now I feel dumb.

[Lifespawn]

Can't believe I forgot Unbalancing Strike! :eek: Now I feel dumb.

it's ok bor i'll cover you this time but don't let it happen again.

Timber 1 lvl of rogue gets you 1d6+ enhancment of sneak attack training for 3 more
and yes halfling for 8 more then you add in tharnes for another 8 and there is the 1d6+19 for sneak attacks add in powerattack because you get your flanking bonus when they are unbalanced and you see the damage stacks up nicely.

[Tekbo]

Better even, what is the point of having high AC, Improved Evasion, high saves, SR and DR 10/epic if you are to never use it?

Why not just have non-low DPS and, well, errr... not be a monk? (Let's face it. All monks are stuck with low DPS, no matter how good at DPS you want to make them). Of all I listed, you're going to only gain of Improved Evasion when not having aggro. AC and DR on cleaving mobs. You may get hit by a few lost swing but... it is kind of lost and not worth the trade off, unless you have Intimidate.

Monks have the same problem as paladins, in that aspect.

Your first sentence here makes no sense. You are implying that the only time high AC, imp evasion, high saves, SR and DR 10/epic become a factor is if the monk has aggro???? First of all, you cant put a price tag on Imp. Evasion in the end game contact. Also, i have no idea why you think imp evasion only works when you dont have aggro. That statement is completely false. Being able to take almost no damage from spells make the monk (and high lvl rogues) stand in a category of his/her own. Some examples....no damage from harry delayed blast fireballs, Enemy blade barriers are worthless against you (along with almost every other damaging spell in the game), SR 30 at lvl 20 combined with the ability to avoid damge from said spells above make the monk the epitomy of survival. Would love to show you how a well built monk in the shroud part 4 needs almost zero healing. High AC speaks for itself, and is a huge benefit to any class regardless of their "role" in a certain raid/group. Finally he, if your AC is bypassed, you will always take 10 less damage. Think of it this way....say your monk has 400 hp. The boss that is hitting you is dealing 70 damage a hit (just throwing a number out). It would take him 6 hits to take the monk out without the DR. With the DR, you get essentially 60-70 more hitpoint. Thats huge, and the fact that it is passive and you dont have to do anything to surface this benefit during a fight make it even more impressive. BTW, Im not positive on this, but the epic dr should stack with warchanter DR, and possibly even Mountain stance for those rare situations.

The reason why i responded to this was because somehow you made an argument against 5 things that, when combined, make monks (or any toon) stand out in a profound way.

Now, as far as your dps assessment goes, you are way off my friend. Unfortunately there are still a number of naive skeptics out there that have not had the luxury of playing with a high dps monk. To achieve such a title, the monk needs uber gear, which is a criticism for monks. Other dps classes can get away with a lot less and still do decent damage. Im willing to bet that the majority of the monks out there are not nearly as well geared as my monk (tekbo), arkat, mazlin, towong, and a couple others (sorry if i forgot some of your names). Because of this, their is some preconceived notion that monks cant dps very well. Ill be the first to admit that monks need dome dps work and they do fall short of most barbs and most tempest rangers, but that certainly doesn't mean they are **** dps just because they are a monk. FYI, i pull harrys aggro through damage quite often. I am in no way bragging myself or anyone else up in this post, but i think it is sad when peole, who are obviously not as well educated about the possible damage output available to a well built monk, categorize the the entire class as **** dps.

To the original poster: It seems as though you like the monk class enough to try and incorporate a skill foreign to the monk but with as little deviation as possible. If it were me, I would ask myself when and where you would use intimidate. If is is just on trash mobs and orange names, then you will be fine witha 42 intim. However, if you are expecting this toon to tank CR 26 + raid bosses, i think you will find yourself disappointed with the amount of failures you will see (failures with intimidate that is). I have a feeling that the new content will have bosses/minbosses that might make intimidate obsolete. The only toons that might have a chance would be those that have their intim. in the 60s. So, with that said, you would be trading away some very useful monk abilities/enh to gain a skill that probably wont be very effective in the long run. Of course, this is just my opinion. Monks are so versatile in this game (even lacking working handwraps, GSteel handwraps, etc), that you will find yourself often asked to fill a number of different roles, including tanking raid bosses. Furthermore, next to the upcoming defenders of siberus, the monk will/could have the highest DR in the entire raid. Couple that with an AC in the 60s-70s, immunities to poison, immunity to disease, and practically invulnerability to spells, and you have yourself an above average tank.

I encourage you to continue on with your build. To each their own ya know? The only reason I chimed in was because I felt some of the advice you were given was untrue or misleading. Good luck with your experiment. Let us know how it turns out. :)

-Tekbo (Khyber)

[Timber]

Your first sentence here makes no sense. You are implying that the only time high AC, imp evasion, high saves, SR and DR 10/epic become a factor is if the monk has aggro???? First of all, you cant put a price tag on Imp. Evasion in the end game contact. Also, i have no idea why you think imp evasion only works when you dont have aggro. That statement is completely false. Being able to take almost no damage from spells make the monk (and high lvl rogues) stand in a category of his/her own. Some examples....no damage from harry delayed blast fireballs, Enemy blade barriers are worthless against you (along with almost every other damaging spell in the game), SR 30 at lvl 20 combined with the ability to avoid damge from said spells above make the monk the epitomy of survival. Would love to show you how a well built monk in the shroud part 4 needs almost zero healing. High AC speaks for itself, and is a huge benefit to any class regardless of their "role" in a certain raid/group. Finally he, if your AC is bypassed, you will always take 10 less damage. Think of it this way....say your monk has 400 hp. The boss that is hitting you is dealing 70 damage a hit (just throwing a number out). It would take him 6 hits to take the monk out without the DR. With the DR, you get essentially 60-70 more hitpoint. Thats huge, and the fact that it is passive and you dont have to do anything to surface this benefit during a fight make it even more impressive. BTW, Im not positive on this, but the epic dr should stack with warchanter DR, and possibly even Mountain stance for those rare situations.

The reason why i responded to this was because somehow you made an argument against 5 things that, when combined, make monks (or any toon) stand out in a profound way.

Now, as far as your dps assessment goes, you are way off my friend. Unfortunately there are still a number of naive skeptics out there that have not had the luxury of playing with a high dps monk. To achieve such a title, the monk needs uber gear, which is a criticism for monks. Other dps classes can get away with a lot less and still do decent damage. Im willing to bet that the majority of the monks out there are not nearly as well geared as my monk (tekbo), arkat, mazlin, towong, and a couple others (sorry if i forgot some of your names). Because of this, their is some preconceived notion that monks cant dps very well. Ill be the first to admit that monks need dome dps work and they do fall short of most barbs and most tempest rangers, but that certainly doesn't mean they are **** dps just because they are a monk. FYI, i pull harrys aggro through damage quite often. I am in no way bragging myself or anyone else up in this post, but i think it is sad when peole, who are obviously not as well educated about the possible damage output available to a well built monk, categorize the the entire class as **** dps.

To the original poster: It seems as though you like the monk class enough to try and incorporate a skill foreign to the monk but with as little deviation as possible. If it were me, I would ask myself when and where you would use intimidate. If is is just on trash mobs and orange names, then you will be fine witha 42 intim. However, if you are expecting this toon to tank CR 26 + raid bosses, i think you will find yourself disappointed with the amount of failures you will see (failures with intimidate that is). I have a feeling that the new content will have bosses/minbosses that might make intimidate obsolete. The only toons that might have a chance would be those that have their intim. in the 60s. So, with that said, you would be trading away some very useful monk abilities/enh to gain a skill that probably wont be very effective in the long run. Of course, this is just my opinion. Monks are so versatile in this game (even lacking working handwraps, GSteel handwraps, etc), that you will find yourself often asked to fill a number of different roles, including tanking raid bosses. Furthermore, next to the upcoming defenders of siberus, the monk will/could have the highest DR in the entire raid. Couple that with an AC in the 60s-70s, immunities to poison, immunity to disease, and practically invulnerability to spells, and you have yourself an above average tank.

I encourage you to continue on with your build. To each their own ya know? The only reason I chimed in was because I felt some of the advice you were given was untrue or misleading. Good luck with your experiment. Let us know how it turns out. :)

-Tekbo (Khyber)

I am not to worried about using intimidate on Raid Bosses cause I raid rarely, so only need to worry about trash mobs.

I am not sure whether I am going to see this build through, as others that have posted have shown logically that Rogue would be a better splash. So I may still start with a level of rogue instead. Or I might try both. I'm unsure yet.
Still need time to tinker with the build.

[Borror0]

First of all, you cant put a price tag on Imp. Evasion in the end game contact. Also, i have no idea why you think imp evasion only works when you dont have aggro.
True. You can't put a price on Improved Evasion because it is nearly worthless for a monk. He already has Evasion by level and his reflex are so high that he only fails but on a 2 anyway so Improved Evasion or not makes little difference. As for Evasion, other DPS builds can pick it up. It's not exclusive to monks, not need to make all the DPS sacrifices a monk has to make for that.

Evasion is handy because there are so many AoE spells but it's not a justification to go further than monk 2.

Would love to show you how a well built monk in the shroud part 4 needs almost zero healing.
Irrelevant. Since clerics use mass heals, how little you take damage is unimportant.

What does really mater in this situation, though, is how much DPS you deal and, that, monks epically fail at it. If you are taking very little damage, it means you're getting overhealed by mass heals (unless you are the one taking mos damage but that would be a very atypical Shroud run).

High AC speaks for itself, and is a huge benefit to any class regardless of their "role" in a certain raid/group.
Not at all. AC is only relevant when there are cleaving mobs and no mass heals are being used or when you have aggro. That is all.

If you have high AC and do not have aggro, you're contributing less than you should/could. AC comes with a trade off of DPS and you should be DPSing, not having high AC. Either find a way to grab the aggro or find a way to reduce your DPS (yes, even if it costs you your uber AC).

Finally he, if your AC is bypassed, you will always take 10 less damage.
Oh, sure, again only relevant if you have aggro or if mass heals are not used while you're facing cleaving mobs.

Since monks have abysmal DPS, chances are you're not going to have aggro.

The reason why i responded to this was because somehow you made an argument against 5 things that, when combined, make monks (or any toon) stand out in a profound way.
True, if you have aggro. Otherwise you defensive capabilities are wasted. You'd be better off playing a THF/TWF fighter, paladin, barbarian, bard, cleric, ranger or rogue. You'd contribute far more than you would as a monk. Or, grab Intimidate.

Now, as far as your dps assessment goes, you are way off my friend. [...] To achieve such a title, the monk needs uber gear, which is a criticism for monks.
Hummm... no. Just simply no. Not even close. Post numbers and I may believe you. Until then, no.

i pull harrys aggro through damage quite often.
You do know his aggro is random, right?

[Tekbo]

Your one sided views of monk effectiveness add very little to post, because he has already committed 14+ lvls to monk. Its almost as if you are trying to deter him from monk all together.

Your views on AC vs DPS aren't entirely cut and dry either. Go tell a str ranger/monk/(insert class here) build that him and his lightning strike rapiers along with a 70 ac are results of "trade off."

As far as end game content goes, there will still be times he faces hard DCs for traps, etc and will be very happy he takes 150 damage instead of 300. I don't understand why this is even being discussed. Monk get imp evasion at 9, and hes planning on taking the monk well past that. Why are we arguing about this?

Borr, next time I run the shroud I will look for you. As far as posting numbers...what do you want me to hit Harry 3-4 times and take a screen shot of the numbers? If thats the case I would be happy to. Especially since it would be educational for you (not saying this in a rude way, but based on your blatent thrashing of ALL MONKS DPS, I have come to the conclusion that you aren't entirely aware of their damage capabilities.)

As far as your comment about not taking damage being irrelevent, I was using that scenario as an example that can and does apply to a number of different quests. In other words, If i can stand toe to toe with harry and not need healing, there is something to be said about that. And again, this all while still doing good dps.

***Please show me some proof that harry's aggro is random. And If i watch him go back and forth between myself and another fighter type, never going after anyone else, is that just 5 mins worth of coincidence? Now I know he switches up a bit and does his area attacks, but that doesn't mean his aggro is strictly random. If you believe that, I urge you to have your best dpser in the group go in first, hit him a few times, then send the others in at his tail and see if he turns around to anyone else. Please do not confuse his spinning attacks with random aggro. He also has single target attacks which apply to the guy doing the most damage****

I am no longer interested in this debate, so I will end with nod of encouragement to the OP. Borr, some of your theories are valid, however, you shouldn't generalize classes with such blatent criticism that are somehow applied to everyone playing that class. I will look for you often to see if we can't get in a shroud together. I in know way claim to be the man or brag about performance, but i am confident I could show you that good dps from a monk can exist.

[Borror0]

Its almost as if you are trying to deter him from monk all together.
Nope. Only from monk without Intimidate (or aggro taunts if Turbine suddenly announces one for Module 9).

Go tell a str ranger/monk/(insert class here) build that him and his lightning strike rapiers along with a 70 ac are results of "trade off."
I could. He would answer me that he had very little DPS to sacrifice to achieve that, and he would be right.

His DPS would still be high enough to grab aggro fairly often, without Intimidate, which monks without Intimidate only accomplish once in a blue moon.


As far as posting numbers...what do you want me to hit Harry 3-4 times and take a screen shot of the numbers?
Nope. List me how you've got to high DPS. That will be more than enough for me.

If i can stand toe to toe with harry and not need healing, there is something to be said about that.
Yup. It probably goes like this.

Player 1: "Oh, look at the cute little halfling who think taking less damage makes him uber. Sooo cute!"
Player 2: "Pretty cute indeed."
Player 1: "Think we should tell him he is just watering down our DPS and that being an unkillable rock is pretty useless when spam healing?"
Player 2: "Oh, better not. He is happy this way. It's be pretty cruel to burst his bubble. If he is happy that way."
Player 1: "You're right. Why ruin someone's happiness when we don't need to?"

Sadly, I don't think that was what you had in mind.

Have you ever played a cleric in part 4 or 5?

Please show me some proof that harry's aggro is random.
Easy.

Borror: /Intimidate
Borror: Good. Maybe my roll.
Borror: Anyone not getting their +8 damage from Tharne's?
*party confirm I have aggro*
*keep watching him spin around, and around, and around..."

It's common wisdom that his aggro is random.

I in know way claim to be the man or brag about performance, but i am confident I could show you that good dps from a monk can exist.

I have guildies who are extremely good players. Some of them play monks. Their monk is always their weakest character.

[Tekbo]

Nope. Only from monk without Intimidate (or aggro taunts if Turbine suddenly announces one for Module 9).

I could. He would answer me that he had very little DPS to sacrifice to achieve that, and he would be right.

His DPS would still be high enough to grab aggro fairly often, without Intimidate, which monks without Intimidate only accomplish once in a blue moon.


Nope. List me how you've got to high DPS. That will be more than enough for me.

Yup. It probably goes like this.

Player 1: "Oh, look at the cute little halfling who think taking less damage makes him uber. Sooo cute!"
Player 2: "Pretty cute indeed."
Player 1: "Think we should tell him he is just watering down our DPS and that being an unkillable rock is pretty useless when spam healing?"
Player 2: "Oh, better not. He is happy this way. It's be pretty cruel to burst his bubble. If he is happy that way."
Player 1: "You're right. Why ruin someone's happiness when we don't need to?"

Sadly, I don't think that was what you had in mind.

Have you ever played a cleric in part 4 or 5?

Easy.

Borror: /Intimidate
Borror: Good. Maybe my roll.
Borror: Anyone not getting their +8 damage from Tharne's?
*party confirm I have aggro*
*keep watching him spin around, and around, and around..."

It's common wisdom that his aggro is random.


I have guildies who are extremely good players. Some of them play monks. Their monk is always their weakest character.

Wow, I thought I was done, but after being the victim of your pointless and insulting dialogue exchange, I guess Im not. I am no longer going to attack your arguments, since you chose to enter into the realm of senseless, offensive banter. I originally thought you might know a little about this game, but your stubborn, close mindedness, coupled with your deliberate attempt to humiliate has proven otherwise. So what happened there? I got you to contradict your little comment about how all builds either sacrifice AC or DPS? Or did you see a monk run in front of you and you couldn't control your contempt and anger? From what ive gathered, DDO might as well just go down to 4 classes all similarly reflecting borrios obviously suber uber toon. We can give them all intimidate....that would make you happy eh?

Hopefully someday you will learn there are no absolutes, and when you do, I suspect you will have a lot more fun playing role playing games. Or perhaps what has taken place on this forum is your idea of fun.

[Borror0]

DDO might as well just go down to 4 classes all similarly reflecting borrios obviously suber uber toon. We can give them all intimidate....that would make you happy eh?
Well, since you ask, I'll tell you.

In DDO, there is about four roles one can fill in a party. Well, five if you count trapsmithing.

Crowd-control: Capacity to prevent damage through abilities.
DPS: Capacity to deal high amount of damage
Healer: Capacity to heal one or many players effectively
Tank: Capacity to hold aggro and to be more efficient to heal than most players in the party

This is a simplification of the situation but it is still a valid description. If your character can't CC, can't DPS, can't heal nor can tank, then you're just just freeloading. You are still contributing, in a way, but you are contributing far less than a better character would and that is the point I am making here.

Since DDO is a class-based system, we can look at each class and look at how well they perform in each role (point-based systems like Shadowrun use archetypes instead). From that, we can conclude which paths are fairly solid choices and which ones are builds built because one felt like being original.

Since this is about monks, let's look at them in-depth:

Crowd-control: While they do have some CC abilities, there is nothnig really worthy of mention.
DPS: Monk DPS is an oxymoron. Monk are notorious for being the DPS-less class of DDO, and it is true. Anyone who has run the calculations (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=149490) knows that monk pale in comparison to other melee classes.
Healer: While monks have some healing powers, it is not enough to heal a group.
Tank: Monks are extremely good at survival. Improved Recovery, Evasion, highest AC in the game, SR, good saves, epic DR, etc. They have got it all. Thus, the logical conclusion would be that monks are a good tanking class. There is one big problem, though. Monks have no means to gain aggro, without multiclassing.

That, is why the monk class in an unpopular class. No other single reason.

Monks are not popular because they contribute so little. For your information, that was also paladins' problem until Turbine started giving paladins good DPS abilities. (Note: Doing the same for monk would be an horrible idea. It would be like the current ranger/monk build but in possibly worse.) Now, paladins are only poor character if they spec as tanks without multiclassing into fighter or rogue for Intimidate.

I don't advocate the reduction of classes, if anything at all I want more classes. I want more choices, which is why I ask for balance (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=159126). However, I am not going to fool myself into thinking a class is fine when it is not.

One thing is being open-minded and one thing is trying to argue a playstyle is more effective than an other when it is not. You're doing the latter. Monks are not gimp, but they certainly are a weak class. They don't contribute as much as they should. Period. Try to portray as a close-minded player who thinks Intimidate is required to tank if you want. The truth is that Intimidate is required to tank if you've got lousy DPS.

Trying to tank with lousy DPS is called being a bad DPS build with good survival capabilities.

Sure, you are hard to kill... but it's still a bad build.

[Roxie]

Monks have to be geared to be great unlike other classes.
Lots of people think monks need more dps, u know it be nice but not needed a str build monk does just fine for dps. While a Dex build monk may do less damage but have a high AC and a higher to-hit. But even a Dex build monk can do ok Dps. My dex monk uses 2 lighting strike kamas and cause im a finesse build I dont miss. So lighting strike goes off alot. Now as for monks taken aggro from raid boss, it does happen iv pulled sulu aggro on my dex monk. I dont think its cause of dps for me tho. As a darkside monk when u use your darkside combos and finishing moves it just ****es them off. Monks are the best class for surviving. The only problem I see with monks is all of these muiltclass builds that go 2 monk and get the ac bonus and not have to be centered, which im sure they will change that bonus to were u will have to be centered. This just my thought about monks tho .

[GlassCannon]

Sure, you are hard to kill... but it's still a bad build.

I'll probably quote you on that when you post an AC build...

heck I'll let that statement echo to ALL "AC builds" that think that poor DPS can be compensated with Shroud Weaponry and lots of donations to MMObay.com


Crowd Control: Monks make great Point Fighters, meaning they rush out ahead and gravitate aggro. They have to be a good half league ahead of everyone to prevent the monsters rushing the cleric, but they can always run back to the group, allowing the Rangers and Intimidator(if applicable) to pull whichever aggro they please. It's handy to have the Monk as the target for all those blasted Archers, as they have the speed to dodge those arrows raining down. Also: Stunning Fist, Unbalancing Strike and Quivering Palm do help a great deal when spammed religiously on nearly every target vulnerable to them.

DPS: Moderate to Decent for now, but later when weapons remain the same and Monk Fists increase in die size, they will be nothing to scoff at, especially on those monsters that you CANNOT critically hit. Rangers will of course pull a close second with Tempest 3, and some will actually pull ahead with the right pure build spec(Capstone; Pure Build Only access enhancement) and FE, but that is bordering on sacrificial, and if we have 5-8 monster types in one dungeon, the Monk will have the most stable non-crit DPS in the place. Barbarians will natrually hold their own with their greensteel dwarven axes and khopeshes, and the Frenzied Juggernauts will be downright fearsome, but they are so terribly fragile. Even a stinging nettle deals them daamge.

Healer: No. Definitely not.

Tank: Decent DPS, Obscene AC, Moderate to High Saves(Paladins are better in this regard), Improved Evasion(This helps A LOT!), natural SR(infuriates Beholders, and rightly should), Heal Amp, and Natural Landspeed that even far outclasses the swift Barbarian! They are exceptional scouts and front line fighters, and a talented player can definitely take aggro when necessary(Hint: Stay out front. WAY out front. Carry potions.) and make a quest significantly easier in some cases(Don't try this in Running with the Devils... Nothing in DDO can save you from 8 Ghaeles using 90-point Searing Light and Deific Vengeance on you at once... yes I mean on Elite). They definitely excel as tanks, but only with the right mind behind them.

In short, due to this particular class' design and specializations, it is best played by a person with Veteran or Advanced level of experience playing DDO. Thus, if anyone says a Monk is their first character, they need to hit the forums and study a great deal before actually playing it full time... or roll up some other classes(and build concepts found on the forums) to gain some gaming experience in the world of DDO before they fall flat on their face and end up wanting to leave out of shame.

[Borror0]

I'll probably quote you on that when you post an AC build...
Nice way to take it out of context. :rolleyes:

Even more since the builds I post have the ability to convert to a better DPS mode, which monk currently can't do.

[Lifespawn]

i'd like to point out borr that a well built wf monk can still grab aggro without intimidate but must use 10 ap to do so and while their ac won't be as high a a dex build they do get dr to mitigate some extra damage.

WF brute fighting 4 to generate 25% more hate.

[Borror0]

i'd like to point out borr that a well built wf monk can still grab aggro without intimidate
True. Good point. I tend to forget this enhancement line. Still fairly limited aggro generation, if you ask me.

PS: I love how GlassCannon transforms a two lines post in a seven paragraphs post. :rolleyes: