Most Busted 3.5 PnP build?

[vtecfiend99]

What is, in your opinion, the MOST BUSTED pnp build?

3.5 of course

any sourcebook



So what do you guys think? I see people talking about some kind of barb build that does hundreds of damage on a swing but have never seen something like that in pnp.

I'm curious to see...

[Angelus_dead]

What is, in your opinion, the MOST BUSTED pnp build?
Naturally a level 1 kobold paladin with Book of Vile Darkness and Serpent Kingdoms.

I mean, it can literally empty your DM's bank account, by RAW.

[Aesop]

Naturally a level 1 kobold paladin with Book of Vile Darkness and Serpent Kingdoms.

I mean, it can literally empty your DM's bank account, by RAW.

I freakin hate Pun Pun


Aesop

[PurdueDave]

any sourcebook


That is a very long leash your giving.:D

You can cruise the 3.5 CO board...
http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339

If you have trouble finding it, there's a link through the relatively easy to find 4E CO board.

[Spisey]

I dunno I always wanted to run a tattooed monk or rage mage. Both seem pretty freakin powerful for melee type classes. :D

[Ananvil]

So what do you guys think? I see people talking about some kind of barb build that does hundreds of damage on a swing but have never seen something like that in pnp.

Its all about stacking multipliers.

Coming up with a really really dumbed down version of it, here: Using just a few sources(Core, C. Warrior, CC, OA, MiC)

Water Orc - Fighter 2/Barbarian 8/Frenzied Berserker 10 (32 Point Buy)

1. Power Attack
Ftr. Cleave
3. Destructive Rage
6. Intimidating Rage
9. Leap Attack
12. Improved Sunder
15. Combat Brute
Ftr. Improved Bull-Rush
18. Shock Trooper

Base Str: 22; +4 from levels; +6 Item; +5 Inherit(Tome/Wishes) for 37.

Greater Frenzy gives you +10 additional strength while frenzied, in addition to immunity to death from HP damage.
Rage stacks on an additional +4 Strength, for a total of 51 Strength (A +20 Mod)

Lets be simple with weapons. Our Barbarian will use a +5 Keen Valorous Adamantine Falchion.

He has full BaB, so he's rocking +20/+15/+10/+5. (in PnP, BaB goes down, not up)
Add in the mods: +20 Strength, +5 Weapon, +2 Charging, +4 Morale (Bard, Cleric or the like, not difficult to achieve, even at level 1), +1 Haste, +1 Luck (Item), +2 Charging for a total of +55/+55/+50/+45/+40

Our buddy here charges his foe, and thanks to the level two Barb substitution he has Pounce and gets to full attack. If his target has a shield, he starts with sundering that and then moves onto sundering his foe's weapon(s) without losing attacks due to Combat Brute.

Then he attacks with Full Power Attack, taking a -20 to his roll to hit. Thanks to Shock Trooper, he can transfer this -20 to his AC instead, retaining his full attack bonus.

Level 10 Frenzied Berserker grants him x4 Power Attack Damage, thus +80 damage per swing. Leap Attack doubles that if he makes a jump during his charge (which he will). A valorous weapon further doubles damage on a charge (but PnP doubling makes 2x and 2x = 3x), thus he will deal:

2d4+5 (Base damage) + 40 (Strength) + 80 (Power Attack) then multiply it all by 3. Thus, your average damage per swing is 390. Add in the fact that Our friend has a 30% critical rate thanks to his keen falchion, and that increases to 507.

So with his five attacks, he deals ~2,535 damage.

And a bonus!

If the next round something is within range of a charge, thanks to Momentum Swing from Combat Brute, his Power Attack Multiplier will increase to x6, increasing damage per swing to 663, or ~3315 for the full attack.


Keep in mind that this is in no way optimized and just something I threw together in a couple minutes. Every single hit he makes will also require a death by massive damage check, insuring at least a 5% chance of death from every hit, regardless of the target's HP.

[Ananvil]

Oh, decrease that damage by 5% to account for critical misses.


Of course, none of this compares to what a straight Druid20 or Cleric20 can do.

[Aspenor]

Pun-Pun the Kobold, although that's not really a build, it's a thought experiment. Pun Pun has every class ability in the game, every monster ability in the monster manual, and has infinite hit points, hit dice, caster level, ability scores and skills.

After that, arguably, is the Shadowcraft Mage, otherwise known as The Killer Gnome. He is a spontaneously casting wizard, which can pretty much cast any spell in the game (including divine spells) at any time that he pleases.

[k1dwizard]

hijack

I say screw it,go monk your first 20 levels, and then as you are almost knows as a god by this point, drop the monestary and take up a life in the wild to explore the world out of your monestary and go your next 20 levels in druid. I made this character once, just so my buddies could meet him. (he refused a life as a god because it seemed to easy) the funnything about this character i needed like 2-3 pages just for special abilities, not even feats, and excluding epic level feats. so now that i am done hijacking this thread think on it, what is a 20monk/ 20 druid be abel to do. the problem with a build like this at all is you would have to go pure both classes, because if you were to change you leveling at any point you can not retake levels in monk or druid.

although in all honesty, go paladin and get yourself a dragon mount, expencive, but i wouldnt want to mess with you.

back to schedualed reading. thank you

[DrWorm0]

hijack

I say screw it,go monk your first 20 levels, and then as you are almost knows as a god by this point, drop the monestary and take up a life in the wild to explore the world out of your monestary and go your next 20 levels in druid. I made this character once, just so my buddies could meet him. (he refused a life as a god because it seemed to easy) the funnything about this character i needed like 2-3 pages just for special abilities, not even feats, and excluding epic level feats. so now that i am done hijacking this thread think on it, what is a 20monk/ 20 druid be abel to do. the problem with a build like this at all is you would have to go pure both classes, because if you were to change you leveling at any point you can not retake levels in monk or druid.

although in all honesty, go paladin and get yourself a dragon mount, expencive, but i wouldnt want to mess with you.

back to schedualed reading. thank you

my guess is not much since to use most monk abilities you need to be lawful and to use some druid abilities you need to be neutral... nice try though.

[PurdueDave]

Here's a golden oldie. Didn't scour it but the principle's been around since that PrC hit print.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/War_Hulking_Hurler_(DnD_Optimized_Character_Build)

[DrWorm0]

Here's a golden oldie. Did scour it but the principle's been around since that PrC hit print.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/War_Hulking_Hurler_(DnD_Optimized_Character_Build)

just took a look and wow that is A LOT of damage. Impractical, but nice to look at ;)

[Aesop]

my guess is not much since to use most monk abilities you need to be lawful and to use some druid abilities you need to be neutral... nice try though.

Lawful Neutral is a valid alignment that allows both Druid and Monk

[Angelus_dead]

Lawful Neutral is a valid alignment that allows both Druid and Monk
Sshh, that's my secret mod 10 build, the Kung Fu Bear.

[DrWorm0]

Lawful Neutral is a valid alignment that allows both Druid and Monk

shoot... lol

[PurdueDave]

Sshh, that's my secret mod 10 build, the Kung Fu Bear.

Huge elemental might be awfully tempting.

[Dracolich]

my guess is not much since to use most monk abilities you need to be lawful and to use some druid abilities you need to be neutral... nice try though.

Which ones do you "have" to be lawfull to perform? You only have to be lawfull to level as a monk. You can get to 20 and decide to go down the path of chaos and still retain your monk levels, just not gain anymore. Monk is not like Paladin, Paladins are the ones when they lose their alignment they lose their abilites.

Thats all neither here nor there since both classes can be lawfull but that is an easy one to forget since I myself did till somone mentioned it.

[sephiroth1084]

How about a Barbarian 20 gestalt with 4 fighter, 1 scout, 4 War Hulk and 10 Frenzied Berserker on the other side? Then you have to multiple the damage you can do by up to 3 (depending on number of adjacent targets), OR you can take the barbarian alternate class feature that gives a cleaving charge, which let's you charge at another target if you kill the first with you first swing, continuing to do so until you run out of movement (and the alt. feat. also let's you charge up to 4x your move speed I believe, and also increases your threat range when charging).

How's that for crazy builds?

And everyone seems to have forgotten (or I missed) the other big deal with the berserker...HE DOESN'T DIE to anything but instant death (unlikely with that huge Fort save), or disintegrate for 3 + Con mod rounds! Whether he's at -10, or -2,000.

If you really wanna get into crazy builds with any book being available, you have to use the gestalt rules from Unearthed Arcana!!!!! Monk 20/Druid 20...Wizard 20/Cleric 20...

Another goody is the Dervish, gestalted with Scout 20, Swashbuckler 3 (Int to damage), Shadowhand feat/stand thingy from Tome of Battle (Dex to damage), with all 3 TWF feats, and flurry of blows from monk, for 9 attacks/round that you can make while moving, dealing an additional +7d6 on every attack, and adding your Str, Dex and Int to damage with your (now considered light and finessable) scimitars.

[sephiroth1084]

Check out another here:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706

That's a pure lvl 20 fighter that can make a level 20 Wizard/Cleric/Druid useless! One of the few examples of a use for more than 6 levels of fighter.

[Aspenor]

hijack

I say screw it,go monk your first 20 levels, and then as you are almost knows as a god by this point, drop the monestary and take up a life in the wild to explore the world out of your monestary and go your next 20 levels in druid. I made this character once, just so my buddies could meet him. (he refused a life as a god because it seemed to easy) the funnything about this character i needed like 2-3 pages just for special abilities, not even feats, and excluding epic level feats. so now that i am done hijacking this thread think on it, what is a 20monk/ 20 druid be abel to do. the problem with a build like this at all is you would have to go pure both classes, because if you were to change you leveling at any point you can not retake levels in monk or druid.

although in all honesty, go paladin and get yourself a dragon mount, expencive, but i wouldnt want to mess with you.

back to schedualed reading. thank you

unfortunately for your plan, Monks are gimp (in both DDO and PnP).

[Aspenor]

Check out another here:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=883706

That's a pure lvl 20 fighter that can make a level 20 Wizard/Cleric/Druid useless! One of the few examples of a use for more than 6 levels of fighter.

not really. it's a neat build. It *almost* is as powerful as playing a non-optimized wizard, cleric, or druid.

generally speaking, playing ANY melee in Pen and Paper is non-busted, because a fighter can never hold a candle to any wizard (or cleric, or druid, or artificer, for that matter) played well.

[Lithic]

My group stopped playing in 2.0, but I had a pretty broken build for a game once.

The DM decided to start a high-ish level campaign and gave us all about 1.5mill exp. (I forget the exact number).

Others made either multiclass characters (which divide their exp by half if 2 classes, so they are usualy 3-4 levels behind a pure at that point), but I decided to build the ultimate spellcaster for that level.

Went human, Dual-class (which means you advance in one class, give up that class, and advance in a second class, etc). Started my carerr as a cleric, and went to lvl 10. Gave up clericing and went wizard until lvl 11. Had enough exp left over to give up wizardry and hit bard 12. To recap, thats a 10 cleric/11 wizard/12 bard.

Builds like this are probably why dual-classing got turned into 3.5's multiclassing hehe.

[Aspenor]

also, I don't think it's fair to bring Gestalt characters into the mix, here. Any moron can make an overpowered Gestalt character....

[sephiroth1084]

also, I don't think it's fair to bring Gestalt characters into the mix, here. Any moron can make an overpowered Gestalt character....

Well, he asked for the most busted, and that's where the gold lies.

The Lockdown build I posted can shutdown even a good caster as long as he gets within range, which may be a problem, but when fighting with a whole party may not be too difficult.

I would say that epic rules should be left out though, as there is no upward limit, and most of the rules are silly and/or broken anyway.

[Aspenor]

Well, he asked for the most busted, and that's where the gold lies.

The Lockdown build I posted can shutdown even a good caster as long as he gets within range, which may be a problem, but when fighting with a whole party may not be too difficult.

I would say that epic rules should be left out though, as there is no upward limit, and most of the rules are silly and/or broken anyway.

what does lockdown do against this? (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10582589#post10582589)

[sephiroth1084]

what does lockdown do against this? (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10582589#post10582589)
Hahah.

Well, it can't beat everything, but a caster who is not prepared to expend half of their resources on turn 1...he's gonna be a tough opponent. Besides, he's holding an anti-magic field. :)

[Drakos]

What is, in your opinion, the MOST BUSTED pnp build?

3.5 of course

any sourcebook



So what do you guys think? I see people talking about some kind of barb build that does hundreds of damage on a swing but have never seen something like that in pnp.

I'm curious to see...

Depends on weather you allow flawed interpritation of some of the rules. 3.5 is particularily filled with easily abused holes where there has been no official interpritation given.

[Red_Knight]

my guess is not much since to use most monk abilities you need to be lawful and to use some druid abilities you need to be neutral... nice try though.

Hello? Lawful Neutral. Problem solved.

[Aspenor]

Since I'm bored, I went and found this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801) to put the question to rest. Pun-Pun the Mighty Kobold, invincible and all-powerful at level 5.

Note: In no way did I have anything to do with the development of this build. Additionally, as the build post says, this is NOT a build meant to be played in ANY gaming group or session EVER. It's not really a character so much as a project. It's a good read, though.

[Spisey]

Since I'm bored, I went and found this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801) to put the question to rest. Pun-Pun the Mighty Kobold, invincible and all-powerful at level 5.

Note: In no way did I have anything to do with the development of this build. Additionally, as the build post says, this is NOT a build meant to be played in ANY gaming group or session EVER. It's not really a character so much as a project. It's a good read, though.


Gotta love loop sequences! Learned alot about it in MtG but rarely see it used well in pnp games. This one is just silly and yet I want to form a party to face him all the same! :D

[toughguyjoe]

one of the most powerful builds which is NOT a caster of spells would have to be:

20 Monk with the Vow Of Poverty Feat from the book of Exalted Deeds. Its just uncanny what they get for that feat.


However. My favorite build, which is not necessarily the best is:

Swashbukcler6/Fighter4/Rogue3/Duelist7

When the Downtime is over tomorrow i'll log on and edit this with his feats and such.

Trust me, Chili Peppers is busted to all get out.

But he still dies to the myriad things casters can do. At least he has a really high Touch AC!

[Draclaud]

On a lower level busted character

The most busted Char I've DMed was a 1/2 Orc Fighter with spring attack, whirlwind, and improved trip. He was a Spiked chain specialist... I had to quit running mages against them. He would trip, pummel and the mage would be dead before he got a single spell off. I eventually had to make an encounter to specifically kill him. Hold person coup de grace FTW.

[Aspenor]

There's been a more recent development on the all-powerful character. An artificer can attain nigh invincibility at level 4, one level lower than Pun-Pun. The cheese involves attaining infinite knowledge skill scores, thus being, literally, all-knowing, including the knowledge of how to destroy Pun-Pun, and any other knowledge that can be conceived.

The best part about it is that the artificer attains this knowledge by jumping off a cliff. :eek:

[Tanka]

The best part about it is that the artificer attains this knowledge by jumping off a cliff. :eek:
Does it involve missing the ground?

[SimVerg]

My group stopped playing in 2.0, but I had a pretty broken build for a game once.

The DM decided to start a high-ish level campaign and gave us all about 1.5mill exp. (I forget the exact number).

Others made either multiclass characters (which divide their exp by half if 2 classes, so they are usualy 3-4 levels behind a pure at that point), but I decided to build the ultimate spellcaster for that level.

Went human, Dual-class (which means you advance in one class, give up that class, and advance in a second class, etc). Started my carerr as a cleric, and went to lvl 10. Gave up clericing and went wizard until lvl 11. Had enough exp left over to give up wizardry and hit bard 12. To recap, thats a 10 cleric/11 wizard/12 bard.

Builds like this are probably why dual-classing got turned into 3.5's multiclassing hehe.

Wasn't 2.0 the one with custom classes? Where you could get negative xp required to level? Yeah...

[Aspenor]

Does it involve missing the ground?

Nope, it involves going SPLAT on the ground :D

[branmakmuffin]

Went human, Dual-class (which means you advance in one class, give up that class, and advance in a second class, etc). Started my carerr as a cleric, and went to lvl 10. Gave up clericing and went wizard until lvl 11. Had enough exp left over to give up wizardry and hit bard 12. To recap, thats a 10 cleric/11 wizard/12 bard.
Call me crazy, but I'm thinking that a character with three classes is not a dual-class character.

[Lithic]

Call me crazy, but I'm thinking that a character with three classes is not a dual-class character.

Ok Crazy.

We went over this during the creation, and there wasn't anything in the books saying it was illegal to have 3 classes, as long as you proceeded along by giving up one class and starting over as another. I think there was even an example in the players handbook about a wizard who became a fighter, then decided to be a ranger or something. Point is it was just a name to distinguish it from demi-human multiclassing. And it was pretty broken heh.

[branmakmuffin]

Ok Crazy.

We went over this during the creation, and there wasn't anything in the books saying it was illegal to have 3 classes, as long as you proceeded along by giving up one class and starting over as another.
I would think it would be pretty obvious, with no further elaboration required, that the phrase "dual-classing" means "two classes."

[Lithic]

I would think it would be pretty obvious, with no further elaboration required, that the phrase "dual-classing" means "two classes."


I would think it would be pretty obvious, with no further elaboration required, that the phrase "branmakmuffin" means "GTFO".

Funny how you only quote the part you want, and about a system you know nothing about. Ah well, it's my fault for ever taking you off the squelch list.

[branmakmuffin]

I would think it would be pretty obvious, with no further elaboration required, that the phrase "branmakmuffin" means "GTFO".

Funny how you only quote the part you want
Which unquoted part indicates that the word "dual" means "two or three?"


and about a system you know nothing about. Ah well, it's my fault for ever taking you off the squelch list.
I was playing AD&D when your parents were lamenting your birth.

[FluffyCalico]

What is, in your opinion, the MOST BUSTED pnp build?

3.5 of course

any sourcebook



So what do you guys think? I see people talking about some kind of barb build that does hundreds of damage on a swing but have never seen something like that in pnp.

I'm curious to see...

Since pnp was just an after thought and not part of the main game who cares.

[Aspenor]

one of the most powerful builds which is NOT a caster of spells would have to be:

20 Monk with the Vow Of Poverty Feat from the book of Exalted Deeds. Its just uncanny what they get for that feat.


Actually, a 20 monk with VOP is...not powerful at all.

Level 1-5....he's more powerful than most everybody else.

Levels 6-10 he's about equal.

Past 11, when you have the funds to buy magical equipment, VOP is virtually useless.

[Aspenor]

Since pnp was just an after thought and not part of the main game who cares.

What, pray tell, are you talking about?

[Tanka]

Past 11, when you have the funds to buy magical equipment, VOP is virtually useless.
Some people like low-magic-item games. I personally find them boring, but I suppose I could substitute a VOP Monk in one to keep things interesting.

..Y'know, if I played Monks in PnP. Gimpy things that they are and all.

[Aspenor]

Some people like low-magic-item games. I personally find them boring, but I suppose I could substitute a VOP Monk in one to keep things interesting.

..Y'know, if I played Monks in PnP. Gimpy things that they are and all.

Ah, but then you'd probably be better off as a VOP druid, anyway....:(

[Tanka]

Ah, but then you'd probably be better off as a VOP druid, anyway....:(
True that.

[eonfreon]

Which unquoted part indicates that the word "dual" means "two or three?"


I was playing AD&D when your parents were lamenting your birth.

It's been awhile and I don't have my AD&D sourcebooks on hand ( I just recently found them at my Dad's house and I kept them there) but if I remember correctly wasn't "Dual-Classing" what allowed multi-classing for Humans?
And it was also used to create the AD&D template of the Bard.
A Human had to take three classes, which I can't quite remember what they were and in what order, but I believe they were Fighter, Rogue, and a caster class (Druid maybe? or Magic-User?), to then qualify to be a Bard.
It was called "Dual-Classing", but the description showed an example of a Triple-class character.
In essence under AD&D rules a Human could be the most powerful because there was theoratically no limit to the number of classes or the number of levels, however, a character would lose ALL XP for a Quest if he used an ability from a Earlier Class before his New Class Level exceeded the Earlier Class Level.
"Dual-Class" is a misnomer, if I remember correctly, because it was simply Multi-Classing by Humans as opposed to Demi-Humans.

[Lleren]

It's been awhile and I don't have my AD&D sourcebooks on hand ( I just recently found them at my Dad's house and I kept them there) but if I remember correctly wasn't "Dual-Classing" what allowed multi-classing for Humans?
And it was also used to create the AD&D template of the Bard.
A Human had to take three classes, which I can't quite remember what they were and in what order, but I believe they were Fighter, Rogue, and a caster class (Druid maybe? or Magic-User?), to then qualify to be a Bard.
It was called "Dual-Classing", but the description showed an example of a Triple-class character.
In essence under AD&D rules a Human could be the most powerful because there was theoratically no limit to the number of classes or the number of levels, however, a character would lose ALL XP for a Quest if he used an ability from a Earlier Class before his New Class Level exceeded the Earlier Class Level.
"Dual-Class" is a misnomer, if I remember correctly, because it was simply Multi-Classing by Humans as opposed to Demi-Humans.

There was no caster class requirement to become a bard, merely fighter and rogue, and some failry specific limitations on which levels. I do seem to remeber examples of human "Dual-Classing" other then oldstyle bard that went more then two classes.

[Borathan]

Some of the most fun I'd had was playing a Goliath Chaos Monk//Barbarian/Frenzied Berzerker in a game. Full BAB, high saves, d12 HD, and the ability to rip just about anything apart with my bare hands.

It was played in a world where alignment didn't matter and we'd been using a variant of the VoP feat that limited treasure you could keep instead of eliminating it (And allowing transport of more if needed, so you don't have your buddies getting excited because they got part of your share of the loot). Relics were also allowed past the restriction.