Rank the Capstones!!!

[Inkblack]

So, what do you think? The capstones are listed below so you don't have to jump all over the place to compare.

--------------------------------------------

???, Level 20 Barbarian
Cost: ??? AP
Benefit: ???

Bard Musical Prodigy, Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You gain +2 Charisma, two additional uses of Bardic Music, as well as +2 to Spell Penetration checks and the DC's of your Enchantment spells. Your beneficial songs last 20% longer.

Divine Intervention, Level 20 Cleric
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You are a strong conduit of positive energy, and can expend a turn attempt to ward your target for five minutes against mortal damage - hit point damage will not lower their hit point total below -9. If the target is knocked unconscious, this effect will heal the target after a few seconds and then fade.

???, Level 20 Fighter
Cost: ??? AP
Benefit: ???

Serenity, Level 20 Monk
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: You are a paragon of understanding and serenity. Your Concentration is increased by 10 and your centered ki generation is increased by 1.

Paladin Weapons of Good, Level 20 Paladin
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction, deal 1d6 additional holy damage against all evil opponents and an additional 2d6 light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders.

???, Level 20 Ranger
Cost: ??? AP
Benefit: ???

Cheat Death, Level 20 Rogue
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: A master rogue can defy even death if their luck holds out. You have a chance of self-resurrection should you die, but this chance drops each time you die between rests. Maruts have a particular dislike for you.

Sorcerer Power Surge, Level 20 Sorcerer
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: All of your damage dealing spells deal 10% more damage, have their critical chance increased by 3%, and their critical multipliers increased by an additional 0.25.

Master of Magic, Level 20 Wizard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Grants +2 Intelligence and all metamagics you possess cost 1 fewer spell point to use. (Heighten Spell costs 1 fewer spell point per level of heightening.)

[binnsr]

without getting involved in the idea of ranking them, I have to say that I like having them listed all in one place ...

sort of reminds me of something, but I can't quite remember what it was.. something weekly..

[Impaqt]

1 WIzard
2 Bard
3 Paladin
the rest are not the slightest bit interesting to me.

[Impaqt]

without getting involved in the idea of ranking them, I have to say that I like having them listed all in one place ...

sort of reminds me of something, but I can't quite remember what it was.. something weekly..

:rolleyes:They havent missed a week yet......

[Laith]

without getting involved in the idea of ranking them, I have to say that I like having them listed all in one place ...

sort of reminds me of something, but I can't quite remember what it was.. something weekly..dude, they've given us so much information since mod8 that DDOWiki split the In Development (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/In_development) page into two parts. One just for in development Enhancements (http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/In_development/Enhancements#Capstones)

[PurdueDave]

paladin
wizard
bard
...gap
monk
...gap
...gap
rogue
cleric

[GoldyGopher]

1 - Wizard
2 - Paladin (Maybe depending on future)
3 -
4 -
5 - Bard
6 -
7 - Monk
89 - Rogue
99 - Cleric

I am not sure Wizards realize how nice that one is yet.
The Paladin is a great step up in terms of DPS for Paladins
Bard is really nice for spellsingers all 12 of which are probably doing cartwheels. For Warchanters not so good.
Is there still a monk class? I thought it was just for splashin.
The Rogue one is helpful for my solo-play rogue just not sure about any other rogues in the game however.
The Cleric one is so bad "country music bards" refuse to sing about it.

[DSC]

1) Bard
2) Paladin
3) Wizard
(gap)
Monk
(gap)
(gap)
Rogue
(gap)
Cleric


...except in Permadeath play, where Rogue and Cleric would be huge.

[Boldrin]

1Paladin
2Wizard
3Bard
4Cleric
5Rogue
6Monk

This is just my opinion of them all, and I play each of the classes listed. Who knows what the others have to offer?

[bobbryan2]

Come now... how you can you say the Rogue one is better than the cleric? The cleric one can be cast on anyone, AND retains buffs.

Rogue is by far the worst.

By far.

[ace_mason]

1 - Wizard
2 - Paladin (Maybe depending on future)
3 -
4 -
5 - Bard
6 -
7 - Monk
89 - Rogue
99 - Cleric
Why does everyone think the cleric capstone sucks. I would rank it number 1.
You can garuntee for 5 minutes you WILL NOT lose a single member of your party.
the cleric cnan zerg ahead or let the barb zerg ahead what ever th eplay style and not wory about them deing the cant for 5 minutes. And if they do get incapped the get a heal and can get up and start running. That is amazing.

[Inkblack]

The Good
Bard, even my Warchanter battle bard likes more spell points from higher Charisma, spell pen so my irresistible dance might stick, and longer songs. Spellsingers have to be happy. If there are any Virtuosos, I’m sure they think it’s cool too.
Wizard, more spell points and I don’t spend them as fast? Oh, and higher DC’s? Thank you!
Paladin, extra damage against a lot of end game creatures, sign me up.

The Bad
Cleric, no death from direct damage? Incredibly lame.
Monk, concentration and ki regen? It's subtle alright, so subtle I don't get it. Monks need some love.
Rogue, chance to cheat death? This is so sad it isn’t even funny.

Don’t know yet: Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Sorcerer

Bard, wizard, and paladin get something they can use the majority if not all the time.
Cleric and rogue get something they probably rarely use.
Monks get to gain and keep more ki -- which isn't an issue for most monks I've seen.

Ink

[GoldyGopher]

Why does everyone think the cleric capstone sucks. I would rank it number 1.
You can garuntee for 5 minutes you WILL NOT lose a single member of your party.
the cleric cnan zerg ahead or let the barb zerg ahead what ever th eplay style and not wory about them deing the cant for 5 minutes. And if they do get incapped the get a heal and can get up and start running. That is amazing.

Please see: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=171381

[Goldeneye]

1.) Paladin - They will have the equivalent of stacking double greater evil outsider banes - might make them worthwhile to bring into shroud

2.) Rogue - Possibility of Death-pact for rogue = sweet

Last Place = Cleric - *sarcastic* Because dv's are over-rated - and something that would make cleric-ing end-game raids not a plat sink (for example: more mana, or improved meta-magic efficiency) would be way to useful

[GoldyGopher]

The Good
Bard, even my Warchanter battle bard likes more spell points from higher Charisma, spell pen so my irresistible dance might stick, and longer songs. Spellsingers have to be happy. If there are any Virtuosos, I’m sure they think it’s cool too.


As a Warchanter I gotta ask.
Okay a few extra spell points, umm for what? Okay I can throw an extra Cure Serious Wounds spells I really don't think that is very exciting.
Spell Pen - Okay so may 26ish Chr based DC check will make my Otto' Danacing Sphere work in Reaver on Normal. Again not so exciting.
Longer songs, cool almost worth while until I though about it. It is not going to reduce the number of songs I sing just put a longer interval between singing them. Maybe if I'm lucky I might save a song or two but with 21 to 24 what's the point?

[ace_mason]

Please see: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=171381

I saw it and I disagree. I run with a guild of friends. I think it is an amazing feat to be able to throw my party members imortality for 5 minutes. Maybe they should have called it immortality and everyone would like it more.

[k1dwizard]

you know hijacking the post really quick, honestly there are 3 capstones missing right? are there any more pre classes they are planning on releasing? because if we are now only waiting for the capstones that leaves 3 more weeks, including this one, of pre information to give out, then maybe the mod? did they plan this right? does thast mean my guess for febuary 25th can be correct?

[bobbryan2]

Why does everyone think the cleric capstone sucks. I would rank it number 1.
You can garuntee for 5 minutes you WILL NOT lose a single member of your party.
the cleric cnan zerg ahead or let the barb zerg ahead what ever th eplay style and not wory about them deing the cant for 5 minutes. And if they do get incapped the get a heal and can get up and start running. That is amazing.

You can only guarantee that if you have 11-12 turns, and it doesn't have a long cooldown.

Not to mention it doesn't last 5 minutes, as as soon as someone goes incap, the duration will soon be over.

[bobbryan2]

you know hijacking the post really quick, honestly there are 3 capstones missing right? are there any more pre classes they are planning on releasing? because if we are now only waiting for the capstones that leaves 3 more weeks, including this one, of pre information to give out, then maybe the mod? did they plan this right? does thast mean my guess for febuary 25th can be correct?

four actually.

OP forgot Rangers. But that's ok, because the devs never do. :D

[Chaos000]

Not to mention it doesn't last 5 minutes, as as soon as someone goes incap, the duration will soon be over.

yeah... if it lasted a whole duration, despite the amount of times a person went incap. It would've made it worth it.

[Inkblack]

As a Warchanter I gotta ask.
Okay a few extra spell points, umm for what? Okay I can throw an extra Cure Serious Wounds spells I really don't think that is very exciting.
Spell Pen - Okay so may 26ish Chr based DC check will make my Otto' Danacing Sphere work in Reaver on Normal. Again not so exciting.
Longer songs, cool almost worth while until I though about it. It is not going to reduce the number of songs I sing just put a longer interval between singing them. Maybe if I'm lucky I might save a song or two but with 21 to 24 what's the point?

I routinely run out of spell points on my warchanter. Having more would be alright by me.

Duration is good because it is a bit longer before the group has to bunch up and get new songs.

I do agree, it's much better for a Spellsinger or Virtuoso, but I don't think it's worthless for a warchanter.

And compared to Cleric, Monk, and Rogue, its clearly better. Heck, I'd gladly take this as a replacement capstone on my cleric.

Ink

[Inkblack]

four actually.

OP forgot Rangers. But that's ok, because the devs never do. :D

Doh! Fixed... :o

[k1dwizard]

doh!

[GoldyGopher]

I routinely run out of spell points on my warchanter. Having more would be alright by me.

Duration is good because it is a bit longer before the group has to bunch up and get new songs.

I do agree, it's much better for a Spellsinger or Virtuoso, but I don't think it's worthless for a warchanter.

And compared to Cleric, Monk, and Rogue, its clearly better. Heck, I'd gladly take this as a replacement capstone on my cleric.

Ink

The $64,000 question. What are you casting that costs you soo many spell points?
Shroud Part 1 - 12 Party Members - GH and Blur - 540 Points - Rage*2 50 Points - Haste*3 90 Points = 680 points.

In all the Raid quests The timing of playing new songs will hardly change. As an example you going to reup songs after each round with Arry in Part 4 of the shroud because the extended song isn't going to last two rounds. Same goes in VoD, before the final elite Orthons reup.
Now the new raids might have different timings so there is that cavaet.

[Impaqt]

I saw it and I disagree. I run with a guild of friends. I think it is an amazing feat to be able to throw my party members imortality for 5 minutes. Maybe they should have called it immortality and everyone would like it more.

THere nothing Immortal about it. It lasts for 5 minutes MAX. Once activated (You go incap) it goes away. not to mention many clerics dont carry Turns.

Its a Pretty bad Capstone overall.

[Dexxaan]

1 Wizard
2 Bard
3 Paladin
the rest are not the slightest bit interesting to me.

Pretty much says it all.

[EinarMal]

The $64,000 question. What are you casting that costs you soo many spell points?
Shroud Part 1 - 12 Party Members - GH and Blur - 540 Points - Rage*2 50 Points - Haste*3 90 Points = 680 points.

In all the Raid quests The timing of playing new songs will hardly change. As an example you going to reup songs after each round with Arry in Part 4 of the shroud because the extended song isn't going to last two rounds. Same goes in VoD, before the final elite Orthons reup.
Now the new raids might have different timings so there is that cavaet.

Here is a possible future tip, an extended displacement will last 4 minutes at level 20, might be a good idea to pass that around more. Freedom of movement (definitely useful in some situations). Spell points are never bad, who knows we might also get more spell choices at some point.

[ace_mason]

THere nothing Immortal about it. It lasts for 5 minutes MAX. Once activated (You go incap) it goes away. not to mention many clerics dont carry Turns.

Its a Pretty bad Capstone overall.

Ok I must have read it wrong. i was my understanding that if you go below zero it will keep you from falling below -9. After a few seconds it will activate and cast a heal on you then disapate. so you have a few seconds to hit them with your own heal to get them back up and it doesnt activate. If this is not how it works then maybe it isnt as great as i thought it was but still worth going straight cleric. You can have a base 8 charisma and for 2 action points have 6 dvs. Covers your party in non raids and most raids have 2 clerics. that covers everyone.
So i guess the question is does it active on incap or when th eheal goes off?

[bobbryan2]

Ok I must have read it wrong. i was my understanding that if you go below zero it will keep you from falling below -9. After a few seconds it will activate and cast a heal on you then disapate. so you have a few seconds to hit them with your own heal to get them back up and it doesnt activate. If this is not how it works then maybe it isnt as great as i thought it was but still worth going straight cleric. You can have a base 8 charisma and for 2 action points have 6 dvs. Covers your party in non raids and most raids have 2 clerics. that covers everyone.
So i guess the question is does it active on incap or when th eheal goes off?

I'm sure it'll activate on incap whether or not you heal them.

And if there's as much as a 1 min cooldown... then it would take 6 minutes to cover the party, and then the first ones are gone.

[Impaqt]

The $64,000 question. What are you casting that costs you soo many spell points?
Shroud Part 1 - 12 Party Members - GH and Blur - 540 Points - Rage*2 50 Points - Haste*3 90 Points = 680 points.

In all the Raid quests The timing of playing new songs will hardly change. As an example you going to reup songs after each round with Arry in Part 4 of the shroud because the extended song isn't going to last two rounds. Same goes in VoD, before the final elite Orthons reup.
Now the new raids might have different timings so there is that cavaet.

Maybe you play a buffbot Warchanter, But I dont...... ANd I would assume many other people play their warchanters similar ro me....

I have to use Masters touch for my proficencies, I keep myself Displaced and often toss DIsplaces on others. WHen someone needs healing I have no trouble throwing a Mass cure, I use my Disco ball sparingly, Of course, you always need to pass out Merfolks as well... Critical importance in almost al quests.

[Deathseeker]

Ok I must have read it wrong. i was my understanding that if you go below zero it will keep you from falling below -9. After a few seconds it will activate and cast a heal on you then disapate. so you have a few seconds to hit them with your own heal to get them back up and it doesnt activate. If this is not how it works then maybe it isnt as great as i thought it was but still worth going straight cleric. You can have a base 8 charisma and for 2 action points have 6 dvs. Covers your party in non raids and most raids have 2 clerics. that covers everyone.
So i guess the question is does it active on incap or when th eheal goes off?

Id assume it activates on incap as it prevented you from dying.

However, that could be a very big deal. You would retain your buffs and potentially avoid a penalty box. Might also be a very big deal in content that requires the party to split up. And of course...if theres a party wipe, but a couple of people had this on them, it might make a huge difference.

On the other hand, if none of those situations exist, and people arent dying much, then yeah, not much help here.

I think this will turn out to be a quest specific benefit...but it wouldnt shock me if you we see some "capstone cleric needed" LFM's in mod 9 if there are a couple quests like that...

[GoldyGopher]

Here is a possible future tip, an extended displacement will last 4 minutes at level 20, might be a good idea to pass that around more. Freedom of movement (definitely useful in some situations). Spell points are never bad, who knows we might also get more spell choices at some point.

I am not saying extra spell points are bad, rather my Warchanter doesn't seem to have this issue of running out of Spell Points that is being cited as the reason the bard one is good for Warchanters. Thus making the extra Spell points currently neutral in my book.

This leads me to believe 1 of 2 things
1) I am a bad warchanter and I really need to cast spell X to improve my performance.
2) Many people are wasting SP by casting things like extended GH on part one of the shroud or the subterrane or....

[Impaqt]

Ok I must have read it wrong. i was my understanding that if you go below zero it will keep you from falling below -9. After a few seconds it will activate and cast a heal on you then disapate. so you have a few seconds to hit them with your own heal to get them back up and it doesnt activate. If this is not how it works then maybe it isnt as great as i thought it was but still worth going straight cleric. You can have a base 8 charisma and for 2 action points have 6 dvs. Covers your party in non raids and most raids have 2 clerics. that covers everyone.
So i guess the question is does it active on incap or when th eheal goes off?

6 Turns? 8 Base CHR starts with just 2 Turns. and if you started with an 8, you probobly arent wearing a CHR item on a regular basis. or dropping a +2 Tome into CHR.

Didnt you send your barbarian zerging off in your example anyway? How ya gonna heal him if hes nowhere near you?

[EinarMal]

I am not saying extra spell points are bad, rather my Warchanter doesn't seem to have this issue of running out of Spell Points that is being cited as the reason the bard one is good for Warchanters. Thus making the extra Spell points currently neutral in my book.

This leads me to believe 1 of 2 things
1) I am a bad warchanter and I really need to cast spell X to improve my performance.
2) Many people are wasting SP by casting things like extended GH on part one of the shroud or the subterrane or....

Well I don't know do you use displacement often? I am almost always displaced on my battle Bard. Like I said also displacement at the cap if you have extend becomes another really handy buff to pass out to the mana sink melees because it will last about as long as a round of songs.

GH I agree with Bard songs that is often not worth passing around at all unless the quest requires a lot of saves.

[Kreaper]

Id assume it activates on incap as it prevented you from dying.

However, that could be a very big deal. You would retain your buffs and potentially avoid a penalty box. Might also be a very big deal in content that requires the party to split up. And of course...if theres a party wipe, but a couple of people had this on them, it might make a huge difference.

On the other hand, if none of those situations exist, and people arent dying much, then yeah, not much help here.

I think this will turn out to be a quest specific benefit...but it wouldnt shock me if you we see some "capstone cleric needed" LFM's in mod 9 if there are a couple quests like that...

Don't forget that it only helps with physical damage. You can still get destructed, fingered, etc. Also, what if that "heal" it gives you causes you to res in the middle of the crowd that beat you up to start with?

And there aren't too many DV/turn Clerics running around these days. My second Cleric will be pure but I won't use both of my turns on this. I don't even have them on my hot bar.

[GoldyGopher]

Well I don't know do you use displacement often? I am almost always displaced on my battle Bard. Like I said also displacement at the cap if you have extend becomes another really handy buff to pass out to the mana sink melees because it will last about as long as a round of songs.

GH I agree with Bard songs that is often not worth passing around at all unless the quest requires a lot of saves.

When I play my warchanter I tend to buff very little, I'm trying to be better. Good Hope, Songs, GH for those that need it, Haste and Go. I tend to keep myself displaced and the main melee in many quests.

However I listen to many many warchanters complain about lack of SP, yet they just cast extended GH AND BLUR on everyone for the final fight with Arry. (Sorry that occured the other day on Khyber). So I tend to believe that those same warchanters complaining about SP are the same one wasting SP.

[Gum]

Paladin, with Wizard coming in second.

[Kiranselie]

All other capstones>Rogue Capstone.


Rethink the rogue capstone please, youre just setting us back several Mods w/ this train of thought.

[Mhykke]

I think the rogue capstone is much, much worse than the cleric one.

[Pyromaniac]

They're all pretty good, except for the rogue one. The rogues get the shaft.

[feynman]

-8. Sorcerer (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=171429)
.
.
.
0. Ranger (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=171427)
1. Paladin
2. Wizard
3. Getting hit in the head with a sock full of nickels
.
.
.
9. Bard
.
.
.
18749. Monk
18750. Rogue
18751. Cleric
.
.
.
00. Fighter (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=171430)


Note: The "00" is meant to be infinity.

[GlassCannon]

Reserving a spot for when we actually see what the good ones are.

Still waiting to see something better.

Currently the Capstones are very meh. 4.5 stars out of 10 overall. The Wizard one is pretty good, considering all the raid gear that stacks with it. It still doesn't in any way compare to 2 Rogue levels for Evasion and UMD. To balance vs that, the Wiz Capstone would also need to be exclusive to Wizard Pures(take 1 level in anything else, lose eligibility), and grant an increase of 20% of base SP(SP from items not affected), and +10% permanent stacks-with-everything spell efficacy(Global Spell Potency, basically).

In other words, there needs to be a MAJOR increase in the power of a Capstone to balance out the gain of a multiclass, and due to the multis wanting the capstones to unbalance the game again, the capstones need to be for Pure builds only.


A good example of the Rogue one would be Cheat Death(Grants current bonuses, and a permanent 30% Dodge Miss Chance which stacks with everything(Displacement would make the Rogue nigh immune to all melee damage), and requires a Base DEX of at least 22 before tomes to gain from(DEX score below 22 before Inherent Bonuses and Enhancements/Enchantments? You don't get that 30% miss chance.), and a +5 feat bonus to all skills). Of course, this would infuriate all the ftr1/rogues out there, but the Rog20/Fighter2's of the future couldn't spec STR and become a TWF madman with heavy picks.

Srsly u guise, what's to gain from staying pure if the capstones are lame, and open to Multiclasses later on?

BTW the Paladin one is decent, but needs a little more kick to balance off those Ftr/Monk/Pal builds.

Additionally, the Bard capstone is 4 stars out of 5. It could use a kick like +2 to all skills and +6 to UMD checks.

[Tygre]

Barbarian - unknown
Bard - nice
Cleric - joke
Fighter - unknown
Monk - joke
Paladin - nice
Ranger - unknown
Rogue - joke
Sorcerer - unknown
Wizard - nice

[Gryphton]

The Wiz capstone is awsome IMO
The Bard is nice for non-warchanters
The Pali one is kinda cool
I do think the Cleric one if it's a fast cooldown would be useful in some raids
The rogue could be really nice if it went off all the time, you have to wonder what the chance is.
Now if Barbarian get anything ontop of the normal PnP stuff that would be nice
I'm all ears waiting for the ranger.
I sure hope sorcs don't get screwed and their capstone is along the same lines as the wiz and bard.

[Pyromaniac]

I sure hope sorcs don't get screwed and their capstone is along the same lines as the wiz and bard.

/signed

[Fenrisulven6]

Ok I must have read it wrong.

Well, the way it was worded has some of us scratching our heads. But I prefer:



Avatar
Cost: 2 AP
Duration: 1/quest

Benefit: You manifest the Aspect of your Deity, serving as a focal point for allies to rest and/or ressurect (ie. mobile shrine).

[Xithos]

1) Paladin
2) Wizard
3) Bard
4) Everything else so far.

[Timjc86]

I don't know about the whole ordering deal as I really only significantly play about three classes, but i'll tell you what I think about the ones that affect the classes I play:


Ranger: who knows? I doubt I'll ever keep a ranger pure anyway, that 1 rogue level is just too nice.


Monk: I am actually excited about passive ki regen. Monks certainly need some help, but I don't think a capstone is the way to fix monks. If it works like I'm imagining, there will be no end to my Abundant Steppage - I can't think of a better monk capstone.


Rogue: I was actually kind of excited at first. It reminded me of the Cheat Death rogue talent from WoW which was very situationally exciting, especially in PvP. But then I remembered PvP's not a huge part of this game, and most decent rogues rarely die anyway. I'm jumping on the bandwagon, the rogue capstone sucks. I doubt I'll ever have a pure rogue either though, even my assassin.


As for the classes I don't really play that much, the Wizard one looks pretty good, especially since I like to heighten good lower level spells when called for.

The paladin capstone seemed amazing at first. As it sits now, it still looks pretty darn good.

I'm happy about the bard capstone. Longer songs for me. :)

And that's it.

[Chaos000]

Well, the way it was worded has some of us scratching our heads. But I prefer:



Avatar
Cost: 2 AP
Duration: 1/quest

Benefit: You manifest the Aspect of your Deity, serving as a focal point for allies to rest and/or ressurect (ie. mobile shrine).

lol would be nice if you could summon a rez shrine at your location as a lvl 20 cleric once per rest.

"you need a rez? whatcha looking at me for, click the shrine"

[Pyromaniac]

The cleric capstone is uber as is, and needs nothing added to it.

[weyoun]

The cleric capstone is uber as is, and needs nothing added to it.

I think pyro is just scared of his gimped monk/cleric becoming obsolete and is therefore posting about how uber the capstone is. disregard his posts please

[Pyromaniac]

Nobody can die for 5 minutes = uber. I may have to bring back my pure cleric as well now....

[Monsoon28]

1 -Wizard
2 -Paladin
3 -Bard




Dead last -Monk.

[weyoun]

as it is only the gimped and the unlucky die now. noone dies for 5 minutes = uber for gimps, not uber for ubers

[Pyromaniac]

There's a lot of low hp builds out there that no deaths for 5 mins = uber

[weyoun]

There's a lot of low hp builds out there that no deaths for 5 mins = uber

yes and low hp = gimped, always has, always will

[weyoun]

Well, the way it was worded has some of us scratching our heads. But I prefer:



Avatar
Cost: 2 AP
Duration: 1/quest

Benefit: You manifest the Aspect of your Deity, serving as a focal point for allies to rest and/or ressurect (ie. mobile shrine).


I want one that is called, "Valve" so I can turn into a valve. Now that would be uber!

[Oreg]

I don't think it is coincidental that they left rangers, Barbs and Sorcs until the end. My only confusion is why clerics werent held off instead of fighters to finish off the last 4 revealed.

[GlassCannon]

yes and low hp = gimped, always has, always will

Some of that powergamer hate pouring out of the forums is bound to manifest in the game as well. 250 HP is not low, 400 is very high.

[Impaqt]

There's a lot of low hp builds out there that no deaths for 5 mins = uber

As pointed out earlier in this very thread, the Cleric capstone in no way guarantees no deaths for a 5 minute period. Heck, we couldnt even get Eladrin to define the amount of healing the incapped character would receive from the enhancement.

[Pyromaniac]

I have faith in Eladrin that it will be uber. Uber in my mind would be if it prevents dying once for every turn for 5 minutes.....

[Soul-Shaker]

1. Pala (nice standard)
2. Wiz (nice but evasion is worth more then 1-5 sp saved per cast, +1dc +29 sp)
3. Bard (+2 songs when you have 20-24 already seems pointless, +2 spell pen and +3 dc on class with little cc worth using seems pointless, +29 sp silly)
4. Monk (Is Ki to start really needed and at 1 KI generation maybe nice if its every second)
5. Clr (If im reading it right, after you incap, your 5 min invulnerability fades. Makes it useless but if it doesnt fade then 12 man battle clr raids will break the game)
6. Rog (ROFL)

Only paladin so far makes me not want to multiclass a little.

[Aesop]

What am I ranking them on?

Power?

Relevance to current BotM?

utility?


So far I rate them all as a 0

Pally is actually overpowered for the most part

Bard and Wizard are too. They cost less than the second stat increase yet give more benefit... sounds a little power heavy to me

Rogue is ... i believe the term "weak Sauce" applies

Cleric is in the same boat as Rogue really.

In terms of Power:
3d6 to two of the most common Mobs in the game
+2 to Primary Stat and reduction of Spell Cost
+2 to Prmary Stat and bonus to Spell Penetration and Enchantment DCs and Extra Songs and extra Song Length
A Don't Die Effect useable on others
An Oops I Died Effect


Honestly I don't like any of them

I'd make Pally 1d6 Light Damage to non good 1d6 to Evil
Wizards +1 Spell Penetration -1 SP cost to all Metamagics
Bard +2 DC to Enchantments and Song DCs Extend Song Duration
Cleric +2 Turn Attempts -1SP cost to all Metamagics
Rogue All Critters that a Rogue hits are considered to have 25% less Fortification against the rogue. Crit immune creatures are considered to only have 75% Fortification


But then again I'm a little grumpy this morning... stupid snow


Aesop


OH wow I forgot Monk... guess that kinda covers it doesn't it

[FluffyCalico]

1) Cleric
2) Wizard
3) Bard
4) Pally
don't like any of the rest.

[esoitl]

1) Wizard
2) Paladin
3) Bard
4) Cleric
5) Monk
6) Rogue

The Wizard capstone is beautiful and will likely be at the top of the list when all become announced. The Paladin one is a nice DPS boost but I'm leery on how effective it will be. It looks great but unlike the the Wizard and Bard capstone it is situational so I don't rank it tops.
The Bardic capstone is quite nice but I just don't feel it is as powerful as the Wizard to rank it higher. As some Enchantment spells are not useful at the current end game we're getting a boost that might not see as much play as it should.

I like the Cleric capstone but it doesn't wow me. I'll put it to good use at times but it seems like it is missing components compared to the three above it. Many people bash the Monk capstone but I like it. It is VERY subtle so it doesn't seem that great compared to ones giving the bonuses such as the Wizard and Bardic capstones do.

The Rogue capstone is cool but much too selective and situational to be of great use. Depending on the percentage of ressurection this could be a rather lame enhancement.

[Falchion123]

Slightly off topic - If the rogue capstone is feign death instead of cheat death, it would be great.

Imagine a rogue getting lots of aggro, he activate Feign Death, bam!, he shakes off all the aggro. It's great too in solo, the mobs just start wandering off thinking he's dead.

[redoubt]

without getting involved in the idea of ranking them, I have to say that I like having them listed all in one place ...

sort of reminds me of something, but I can't quite remember what it was.. something weekly..

Your comments are causing development of a thought in my brain, but I'm having trouble getting a clear picture of the activity there. Must be lag induced loss of storage space.

[Gorstag]

Wow, I actually am agreeing with Aesop. Great ideas, really. Now since I am agreeing with you though, I need to go and see if hell has froze over. :)

[darkrhavyn]

THere nothing Immortal about it. It lasts for 5 minutes MAX. Once activated (You go incap) it goes away. not to mention many clerics dont carry Turns.

Its a Pretty bad Capstone overall.

Actually ALL clerics have turns...how many depends on their CHA score. What many clerics dont routinely care is DVs (divine vitality).

[Gum]

After further review, I'm gonna go with

Paladin being the best, Wizard and Bard tying for second place :)

[Narmolanya]

I dont play fighters, barbs, wiz or sorc so I won't comment on those.

Bard and Pally capstones rock.
Don't know about Ranger yet.
Cleric total sucks.
Monk is lame and does not lessen then prevaling dislike of them in groups.

[Vengenance]

1) Wizzards-->This one is quite nice
2) Pallys-->Finally some pally love
.
.
.
3) Bards-->Not bad for spell singers I guess
.
.
.
.
.
Monk-->This one blows chunks
.
.
.
.
.Rogue-->This one sucks a$$
.
.
.

Cleric-->This one is the crown jewel of suckiness

[dimster28]

anyone who think monk capstone is lousy obviously is already monk hater or never play monk or a player who play monk but dont understand monk.

i play with monk all time and am very good with my monk, am very excite about this capstone, it is perfect capstone

just one hint: with that capstone, how often u think monk can use quivering palm??

so i rank monk no 1, other classes i cant rank them as i never play them, only other i play with is ranger and fighter

[Mindspat]

THere nothing Immortal about it. It lasts for 5 minutes MAX. Once activated (You go incap) it goes away. not to mention many clerics dont carry Turns.

Its a Pretty bad Capstone overall.

It's a great concept while it does lack forsight. A good point is that not everyone plays with "Turns". there should deffintely be an alternate capstone, but I really like this.

My lvl 12 Cleric as 16 turns. :D

[Mindspat]

6 Turns? 8 Base CHR starts with just 2 Turns. and if you started with an 8, you probobly arent wearing a CHR item on a regular basis. or dropping a +2 Tome into CHR.

Didnt you send your barbarian zerging off in your example anyway? How ya gonna heal him if hes nowhere near you?

Divine Healing. :D

[darkrhavyn]

People get this straight:

ALL CLERICS HAVE TURNS

Turn undead is a granted class feat for being a cleric. You dont pick it and you cant give it up.

How many turns depends on what said clerics CHA score is. Even my hubbies multiclass barb/rogue/cleric who started with a 6 CHA has 2 or 3 turns.

Whether or not a cleric decides to take an enhancement line that lets them expend said turns to do something other than turn undead is all that can be changed.

So the capstone may not be something a cleric wants to invest in, anymore than they want to take Divine vitality, healing, cleansing or light---not a matter of not being able to use it due to "not playing with turns".

Personally, I am not terribly impressed with the cleric capstone though I can see certain situations where it might be helpful.

[Inspire]

I saw it and I disagree. I run with a guild of friends. I think it is an amazing feat to be able to throw my party members imortality for 5 minutes. Maybe they should have called it immortality and everyone would like it more.

True it has great uses, but I think it only works for physical damage. Ie; elemental/alignment and untyped damage will still overcome this capstone.




Depending on how fast the Monk "Ki" regen is, it will be a very powerful capstone as the monk will not require outside healing for non-raid(and some raid) quests.

1)Paladin(no need to carry good aligned weapons to bypass DR/, makes up for cross-class intimidate/UMD with a fair DPS boost)
2)Monk(4th if very slow regen rate)
3)Wizard(2nd *see Monk)(versitility boost, sp reduction)
4)Bard(3rd *see Monk)(brings bards to the enchantment DC of a Sorc and almost Wiz, + spell pen)
5)Cleric(situational imortaility vs physical damage)
6)Rogue(post death effect, thus very situational)

[Turial]

Divine Healing. :D

If only more clerics would carry this...

[riexau]

anyone who think monk capstone is lousy obviously is already monk hater or never play monk or a player who play monk but dont understand monk.

i play with monk all time and am very good with my monk, am very excite about this capstone, it is perfect capstone

just one hint: with that capstone, how often u think monk can use quivering palm??

so i rank monk no 1, other classes i cant rank them as i never play them, only other i play with is ranger and fighter

Pure comedy. Thanks for keeping a sense of humour despite the terrible capstone :)

I know! Let's make an equilivant capstone for rangers!

Ranger capstone: Increases your maximum sp by 20 and reduces all spellcosts by 1.

And that is basically what the monk capstone equates to.

Anyone who doesn't see that the monk capstone is far and away the worse regurgitated piece of day old pizza needs to have their head examined.

[Soul-Shaker]

i play with monk all time and am very good with my monk, am very excite about this capstone, it is perfect capstone

just one hint: with that capstone, how often u think monk can use quivering palm??

I can usually use quivering palm as soon as the cooldown is up. Try taking elegant crane and using stunning fist together. You can go from 15 ki to 200+ on 1 high hp mob extremely fast while not even in fire/earth stance.

[Angelus_dead]

True it has great uses, but I think it only works for physical damage. Ie; elemental/alignment and untyped damage will still overcome this capstone.
Certainly not.

All forms of hitpoint damage are the same to that capstone, and all of them can defeat it equally well: If it works as-written, then the first time someone drops to under 1 hp, the buff ends ~5 sec later.

[akiraproject24]

Rogue capstone is absolutely weak. Maybe a rogue based skill bonus, hide in plain sight (prolly wouldnt work this game). Definately multiclassing now after reading it.

Bard's capstone looks like it may be the most useful (and most thought out)

Really cant wait to see ranger and Barb capstones!

[Krago]

The rogue capstone is negated if he has a Cleric with capstone.

Rogue < Cleric

[BlackSteel]

1) bard
2) pally
3) wiz
4) cleric
5) rogue

the cleric capstone would make a better progressing enhancement rather than a capstone, 1,2, and 3 AP. Each rank heals your target for more hp after going incap. 25%/50%/75% HP would work fine, and put them around lvls 1,5, and 15.

Then redo the cleric capstone to resemble the bard or wiz, or a lesser pally one. +2 wisdom and 1d6 vs evil? Or -10% healing cost and faster casting on healing spells? Sorc speed casting on cures would be a nice capstone.

[ahpook]

While the wiz, paly and bard are obviously good due to more of the things we want at low cost the cleric one actually changes the rules and thus cannot be easily evaluated in isolation. It's value is hard to analyze in advance of seeing what the game is like at level 20. If there are lots of penalty boxes in those quests the Cleric capstone would be very important. The knocks against the cleric capstone remind me of the "Necropotence sucks" talk of yore. IMHO, the jury should still be out.

Now the wizard and bard capstones are obviously good because at the very least it would be = 8 free action points because you could drop the stat II and stat III (10 aps) and replace them with the capstone (2 ap). But they are actually much better than that.

The monk one is similar in that if you take the concentration enhancements this is at the very least a cheap refund of APs thus giving you back 8 APs. And more damage for the paly is obviously good but that could be dependent on the meta game of what enemies we face and if DPS regains ground on stat damage.

The rogue one while somewhat similar to cleric suffers significantly because its a rez. You might not be able to avoid the penalty box and there fore it is not rule bending. A scenario like the reaver where you rez in the penalty box and then hit the rez switch to recover from a party wipe could be interesting but the likelihood of that scenario reappearing is unlikely. And it really suffers because of that word "chance". If you cannot depend on an effect then you cannot use it strategically. Rogues that are pure for other reasons will try it out but they might not find it worth the 2 APs.

Although none of the capstones are reasons in themselves to stay pure, I could see a pure class taking them for 2 AP with the exception of the rogue one.

1. Wiz
2. Paly
3. Bard
4. Cleric*
5. Monk
99. Rogue

* this could move dramatically by the time we get to use it.

[Deathseeker]

While the wiz, paly and bard are obviously good due to more of the things we want at low cost the cleric one actually changes the rules and thus cannot be easily evaluated in isolation. It's value is hard to analyze in advance of seeing what the game is like at level 20. If there are lots of penalty boxes in those quests the Cleric capstone would be very important. The knocks against the cleric capstone remind me of the "Necropotence sucks" talk of yore. IMHO, the jury should still be out.

Now the wizard and bard capstones are obviously good because at the very least it would be = 8 free action points because you could drop the stat II and stat III (10 aps) and replace them with the capstone (2 ap). But they are actually much better than that.

The monk one is similar in that if you take the concentration enhancements this is at the very least a cheap refund of APs thus giving you back 8 APs. And more damage for the paly is obviously good but that could be dependent on the meta game of what enemies we face and if DPS regains ground on stat damage.

The rogue one while somewhat similar to cleric suffers significantly because its a rez. You might not be able to avoid the penalty box and there fore it is not rule bending. A scenario like the reaver where you rez in the penalty box and then hit the rez switch to recover from a party wipe could be interesting but the likelihood of that scenario reappearing is unlikely. And it really suffers because of that word "chance". If you cannot depend on an effect then you cannot use it strategically. Rogues that are pure for other reasons will try it out but they might not find it worth the 2 APs.

Although none of the capstones are reasons in themselves to stay pure, I could see a pure class taking them for 2 AP with the exception of the rogue one.

1. Wiz
2. Paly
3. Bard
4. Cleric*
5. Monk
99. Rogue

* this could move dramatically by the time we get to use it.

I rank this as the #1 response to this post.

/agree

[Gornin]

My problem with the cleric capstone is that it uses resources ( turn undead ) when every other capstone is passive.

[Inkblack]

Updated with the sorc capstone...

[Pyromaniac]

Time to add the sorc capstone to the list, I'll put it last after rogue. Given the sheer usefulness of DPS casting at end game. Not anywhere as good as what the wizards got.

[maddmatt70]

Time to add the sorc capstone to the list, I'll put it last after rogue. Given the sheer usefulness of DPS casting at end game. Not anywhere as good as what the wizards got.

Dps is useful for arcanes in so many scenarios form polar raying in the shroud to firewalling in the vale and some of the vale quests, sorjek, etc. Ball lightning is alot of arcanes new favorite damage spell what have you. Because you have not found much use for dps does not mean it is not useful it just means you have not figured out how to use dps..

[Pyromaniac]

Guess your raid groups contain 6+ sorcs instead of 6+ melees then if sorc DPS > melee DPS?

[Vyctor]

Slightly off topic - If the rogue capstone is feign death instead of cheat death, it would be great.

Imagine a rogue getting lots of aggro, he activate Feign Death, bam!, he shakes off all the aggro. It's great too in solo, the mobs just start wandering off thinking he's dead.

Actually that might be much more viable as a rogue capstone. Something similar to the feign death ability in Army of Two.

[maddmatt70]

Guess your raid groups contain 6+ sorcs instead of 6+ melees then if sorc DPS > melee DPS?

I have been on 19 min shroud speeds with 3 sorcs before. They all had the glacial item set..

[shores11]

My rankings...


So, what do you think? The capstones are listed below so you don't have to jump all over the place to compare.

--------------------------------------------

???, Level 20 Barbarian
Cost: ??? AP
Benefit: ???

Bard Musical Prodigy, Level 20 Bard - # 4
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You gain +2 Charisma, two additional uses of Bardic Music, as well as +2 to Spell Penetration checks and the DC's of your Enchantment spells. Your beneficial songs last 20% longer.

Divine Intervention, Level 20 Cleric - # 3
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You are a strong conduit of positive energy, and can expend a turn attempt to ward your target for five minutes against mortal damage - hit point damage will not lower their hit point total below -9. If the target is knocked unconscious, this effect will heal the target after a few seconds and then fade.

???, Level 20 Fighter
Cost: ??? AP
Benefit: ???

Serenity, Level 20 Monk - # 7
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: You are a paragon of understanding and serenity. Your Concentration is increased by 10 and your centered ki generation is increased by 1.

Paladin Weapons of Good, Level 20 Paladin - # 2
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction, deal 1d6 additional holy damage against all evil opponents and an additional 2d6 light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders.

???, Level 20 Ranger
Cost: ??? AP
Benefit: ???

Cheat Death, Level 20 Rogue - # 5
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: A master rogue can defy even death if their luck holds out. You have a chance of self-resurrection should you die, but this chance drops each time you die between rests. Maruts have a particular dislike for you.

Sorcerer Power Surge, Level 20 Sorcerer - # 6
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: All of your damage dealing spells deal 10% more damage, have their critical chance increased by 3%, and their critical multipliers increased by an additional 0.25.

Master of Magic, Level 20 Wizard - # 1
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Grants +2 Intelligence and all metamagics you possess cost 1 fewer spell point to use. (Heighten Spell costs 1 fewer spell point per level of heightening.)

[vainangel]

SO a Wiz gets a + to his stats... Sorc gets DAMAGE boots...

I think not.
Faster casting no cost, +CHR, +SP

or something...

[Inkblack]

Since I never actually ranked them:

1 - Wizard - This enhancement is passive and adds to spell DC's which impacts most of what the class does. Aided by the fact that it is a one stat class, and that the role is pretty well defined.

2 - Paladin - Nice passive DPS addition, although only useful in certain situations. Does benefit from the fact that currently many end game mobs fit the enhancement. Risks going in and out of favor depending upon the last update.

3 - Sorcerer - A good passive enhancement used in many spells, although it doesn't benefit the FoD specialists. Not as powerful as wizard, which helps restore a bit of balance.

4 - Bard - Spell pen will help, longer songs is nice, but doesn't address ineffectiveness of non-buff bard songs at upper levels. Decent enhancement, I'd still take it.

5 - Monk - At least it's passive. I'm not sure how effective this is though. Watching monks ki bar fill up doesn't seem to take long even without this enhancement, so I really question how useful this is.

6 - Cleric - Active, and wards against physical damage. Even when it gets used, I can see getting knocked down to -9 hps, then getting hit with enervation, poison, or any number of other spells and finished off. What happens when we get knocked down to -9, then another monster walks by and AOE's us or something? If it takes any time at all to get healed, or doesn't heal us sufficiently, this is a complete waste.

DFL - Rogue - This just props up weak rogues. The word chance worries me a great deal. The chance should be very high (>90%) for the first death, then rapidly descending for anyone to consider this. I'm not going to waste enhancement points on this no matter what percentage it takes. Good rogues are not squishy.


TBD: Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger

Ink

[Monkey_Archer]

1 - Bard - Allows bards to obtain the highest spell pen in the game and highest DC in the game. Only wizards will be able to match bard DC. Longer songs and more songs are helpful, and at the very least will save AP.

2 - Fighter - Great capstone. Pure fighters have been sub-par compared to all the multiple multiclass fighter options for a while... good reward for those who stayed pure.

3 - Wizard - Great capstone and very fitting. Finally gives the wizard something they can do better then a sorc.

3 - Sorcerer - Tied with Wizard for good reason. Metamagic part of wizard capstone will not even come close to the extra sp a sorc has. Leaves wizard better for CC sorcs better for nuking, nothing new here.

4 - Paladin - Good boost for a pure class that needs it.

5 - Ranger - Good for the ranged rangers, but doesn't address the ineffectiveness of ranged combat in general. Just glad they didnt make this some sort of tempest-like TWF boost.

6 - Barbarian - +2 strength? Cant complain about that. Nice to know the devs are leaning as far away from toothpick barbs as they possilby can :D

7 - Monk - This one is tough to judge. Has different benefit to different monk styles. A wisdom monk will like having a qp or other ki moves ready to go. A Strength monk in firestance already has difficulty using all the ki they have anyway and benefits very little from this. I do like the thought of endless abundant steps though :)
This one could easily move up if they add more usages for ki.

8 - Cleric - Could be #1 in the right situation... dont know how usefull this will be in the new content. Could be completely useless as most good groups in most quests can expect 0 deaths anyway. I would really like to see somthing passive that benefits the cleric though... like +2 wisdom for example

9 - Rogue - Last place under the assumption that the first "chance" is 100% and reduces by 20% each time .... just like the cleric, this is only effective if the rogue DIES. :( and loses all buffs :mad: would like to see +2 intel or dex added.


For reference i play a pure fighter, wizard, sorc, bard, monk and cleric.... a multiclass ranger, rogue, barbarian... and do not play a paladin

[Deathseeker]

<Monkey's Rankings>



Well, I was going to write a current detailed response, but Monkey's pretty much summed it up perfectly. And I believe this also represents the general consensus of most on the forums (not all, but most).

[Gryphton]

I hate the Barbs...
The reason is because it is totally meant for THF. If the builds that stay Crit Rage II take this capstone they will never be able to re-set out of it.

I am interested to see if they come up with many more capstones or not in the somewhat near future. I don't agree with the use of capstones to try to balance the development mistakes of the past.

I pretty much agree with Monkey except for my dislike of the barbs and the rangers.

[daniel7]

I'm pretty much in agreement with monkey_archer. I think they are pretty much all helpful but non of them are so powerful that people are going to reroll. Turbine uses the capstone as another game balancing tool.
Some people are upset that only ranged rangers benefit from the ranger's capstone but its for two good reasons: pure ranged rangers needed a boost to catch up in dps and because twf rangers definitely do not need a boost in dps.
Is the paladin capstone better then the barbarian capstone? I think so, but paladins needed the boost barbarians didn't.

[KKDragonLord]

Pally is actually overpowered for the most part


Just... Lol

[Shade]

1 - Bard - Just such an awesome set of all around boosts. So much more then any other class gets it seems overpowered.

2 - Wizard - A straight up boost to what their best at. And a massive boost to overall spells they can cast (with metas on). Gives them the highest spell DC in the game period, Something they never had before.. Quite the power.

3 - Cleric - GOD MODE! Hell yea. Awesome capstone. So underrated. People do not understand that this UNDISPELLABLE GOD MODE DEATH IMMUNITY FOR THE ENTIRE PARTY. You cannot DIE! Wow how are people ranking this last? What are you thinking?!!?!? Dying in this game is bad! This stops that! Toss this baby on your Barbarian, send him into the room with all the nastiest stuff that tough to get agro on, and it doesn't matter if it takes him out - because he's immune to death! Or just go fight some beholders without your silver flame on and laugh at their finger of death!

4 - Favored Soul - Great capstones.. The only class that actaully gets more then 1! The unlimited cure light wounds is awesome. The searing light is wicked. The other ones are nice too. Great variety of very powerful abilities.. FREE spells!

5 - Sorcerer - Eh it's good. But given the sorcerers already massive damage, it's a somewhat trivial boost. Still more damage all the time can't be argued with.

8- Ranger - Massive boost for ranged rangers. Also a good hint from Turbine that silly ranged should just stick with a bow because their too squishy to melee.

7 - Paladin - Solid and seems appropriate for the content and overall design of the class.

8 - Monk - Sounds good in the hands of a Ki master.. But i dunno, never played a monk.

9 - Barbarian - +2 strength? Blah. For a class that can get well over 70 strength, this is a very minor and trivial bonus. But understandable given the class already has a great bonus for staying pure unlike most classes anyways - Mighty Rage. However - the other part of the capstone thats sposed to make the capstone actaully good and make Barbarians the definitive THF class - the increase to glancing blow damage - is bugged and doesnt even work! Once they fix this i'd probably put it up a few ranks, given the increase is reasonable.

10 - Rogue - I don't think its that horrible, It's still some minor death immunity.. Just not nearly as good as the clerics capstones, since its self only, and unreliable, and has no real buff-like/ auto healing quality to it.

[Shade]

1 - Bard - Allows bards to obtain the highest spell pen in the game and highest DC in the game. Only wizards will be able to match bard DC. Longer songs and more songs are helpful, and at the very least will save AP.


Incorrect on the spell DC.

Spell DC = 10 + Spell level + Stat Modifier

Bards spell level only goes up to 6. Wiz/Sorc goes to 9. Thats 3 lost DC straight up.

Now the capstone is +2 cha. .Vs a Sorc, this is +1 DC, Vs a Wizard, No bonus as their capstone is +2 int.
Bards also get +2 to the DC on enchantment spells.

So example:
Hold Monster (Enchantment Spell)
Bard:
Spell Level 4
DC 10 + 4 LvL + 2 Capstone + Cha
= 16 + Cha
Wiz:
Spell Level 5
DC 10 + 5 + Int
= 15 + Int
So without the heighten feat (which not having on a lvl20 wizard is nearly impossible without serious brain damage).. The bard wins.
With Heighten:
Bard spell level goes to 6
DC goes to 18 + Cha
Wizard Spell level goes to 9
DC goes to 19 + Int
Wizard has +1 DC

Notably.. The wizard can also cast hold monster, mass.. While the bard cannot. Also the wizards spell may cost less spell points despite being heightened (depending on enhancement setup). Also the wizard has many many more feats, so he could more easily fit the enchantment focus feats into his builds.

Capped caster spec bards will be excellent at CC. No doubt.
Sorcerers will be awesome too.
Wizards will be freakin gods at it.

[Failstorm666]

when i first saw the cleric capstone, i thought "this is just like WoW's 51pt holy priest talent Guardian Spirit, which is stupidly OP, but trades extra heals for a ridiculously OP duration"

the rogue capstone is straight from PnP

the pally one is just asking for TWF, KOTC, and a room full of evil outsiders

the sorc one is "hit it even harder"

not familiar with the rest

[Lehrman]

So, what do you think? The capstones are listed below so you don't have to jump all over the place to compare.

--------------------------------------------

???, Level 20 Barbarian
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: +2str and +% of splash damage with 2 handed weapons

Bard Musical Prodigy, Level 20 Bard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You gain +2 Charisma, two additional uses of Bardic Music, as well as +2 to Spell Penetration checks and the DC's of your Enchantment spells. Your beneficial songs last 20% longer.

Divine Intervention, Level 20 Cleric
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You are a strong conduit of positive energy, and can expend a turn attempt to ward your target for five minutes against mortal damage - hit point damage will not lower their hit point total below -9. If the target is knocked unconscious, this effect will heal the target after a few seconds and then fade.

???, Level 20 Fighter
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: +10% Attack speed

Serenity, Level 20 Monk
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: You are a paragon of understanding and serenity. Your Concentration is increased by 10 and your centered ki generation is increased by 1.

Paladin Weapons of Good, Level 20 Paladin
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction, deal 1d6 additional holy damage against all evil opponents and an additional 2d6 light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders.

???, Level 20 Ranger
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: ???

Cheat Death, Level 20 Rogue
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: A master rogue can defy even death if their luck holds out. You have a chance of self-resurrection should you die, but this chance drops each time you die between rests. Maruts have a particular dislike for you.

Sorcerer Power Surge, Level 20 Sorcerer
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: All of your damage dealing spells deal 10% more damage, have their critical chance increased by 3%, and their critical multipliers increased by an additional 0.25.

Master of Magic, Level 20 Wizard
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Grants +2 Intelligence and all metamagics you possess cost 1 fewer spell point to use. (Heighten Spell costs 1 fewer spell point per level of heightening.)

Sorc
Paladin
Fighter
Barb
Bard
Wizard
Cleric/Rogue/Monk
Ranger

[Judo]

Why does everyone think the cleric capstone sucks. I would rank it number 1.
You can garuntee for 5 minutes you WILL NOT lose a single member of your party.
the cleric cnan zerg ahead or let the barb zerg ahead what ever th eplay style and not wory about them deing the cant for 5 minutes. And if they do get incapped the get a heal and can get up and start running. That is amazing.


gonna have to disagree with you here band...sure, the timer is 5 minutes, but once you get incapped, and the effect goes off, your open for business, as soon as you start "regen" you can immediately be hit for death damage, went off on Toad the other day, and before i could blink i was dead again, without even reaching 0 hit points...basically the whole thing gives you an extra second to heal a party member that you didnt have before...completely worthless for raid bosses and mobs that still try to hit you once incapped

[Draccus]

Great:
Bard
Paladin
Wizard
Fighter

Good:
Barbarian
Cleric
Sorc
FVS

Meh:
Ranger
Monk

You must be joking:
Rogue

[Kalundan]

Great:
Bard
Paladin
Wizard
Fighter

Good:
Barbarian
Cleric
Sorc
FVS

Meh:
Ranger
Monk

You must be joking:
Rogue

This rating would be good if some of them weren't completely broken or partially broken.