Cleric Capstone - That was a joke right ?

[Perceval]

Devine Intervention? Your kidding right ?

Where is the +2 stat that you are tossing out to the other casting classes?

3 years I have been playing my cleric, sitting at level 16 for so long I forgot that the game actually has XP and what I get to show for it is a 4th level spell that should already be in the game 18 months ago ?

Sad day for clerics this will be. Just another waste of a "turn" to keep other classes happy. You can all kiss your DVs goodbye. The second everyone walks in the dungeon they will begin complaining (I want to say *****ing, but [the language filter] won't let me) that they need Divine intervention.

The clerics of Stormreach should gather in Korthos for a sit in and refuse to heal anyone on the day before the scheduled release of this pathetic excuse for a capstone.

[Eternity25]

A mana increasing capstone would be really nice for clerics. It would reduce the number of mana potions they need to use if they had more mana.

If the capstone heals a player completely when they become incapacitated I think its a nice capstone. Can someone explain what the capstone does? I read it and get the impression its suppose to heal a person completely when they become incapacitated. Or am i mistaken? Wouldn't healing a person completely when they become incapacitated be a very powerful ability and not something to complain about?

[FluffyCalico]

A mana increasing capstone would be really nice for clerics. It would reduce the number of mana potions they need to use if they had more mana.

If the capstone heals a player completely when they become incapacitated I think its a nice capstone. Can someone explain what the capstone does? I read it and get the impression its suppose to heal a person completely when they become incapacitated. Or am i mistaken? Wouldn't healing a person completely when they become incapacitated be a very powerful ability and not something to complain about?

It keeps you from dieing from a crit or from a huge hit. It holds you at -9 for a few seconds so someone can toss a heal to you. Which tells me there will be more raids comming where people can't be rezzed during the fight. In those areas this will be very useful.

[Angelus_dead]

It keeps you from dieing from a crit
A what?

[Dozen_Black_Roses]

/signed

a lvl 4 pnp spell is not going to sell me to keep any pure clerics...what a joke

[bobbryan2]

It keeps you from dieing from a crit or from a huge hit. It holds you at -9 for a few seconds so someone can toss a heal to you. Which tells me there will be more raids comming where people can't be rezzed during the fight. In those areas this will be very useful.

It keeps you from dying from lag... that would be more accurate.

Of course... it'd be nice if they just fixed the lag and then give the clerics a useful skill.

[DaggomaticDwarf]

A what?
A "Crit" u know it keep u from dying from a crit, so if sumone from "Great Crittain" try to kill you u won't die

[Fenrisulven6]

Waitaminute. Are you saying the cleric's capstone is simply carrying the burden of Heavy Fort that every tank should already have?

Or is this something else entirely different? Like something that stacks with Hvy Fort?

[Timjc86]

A "Crit" u know it keep u from dying from a crit, so if sumone from "Great Crittain" try to kill you u won't die

I think he's referencing the abundance of heavy fortification items at 8 (with RR) and level 10 (w/out RR). At level 20 it's safe to assume everyone will have it.

[Eternity25]

A "Crit" u know it keep u from dying from a crit, so if sumone from "Great Crittain" try to kill you u won't die

Doesn't heavy Fortification let the crit be rolled as a normal damage roll? Making the crit aspect of it almost useless for a toon with heavy fortification equipped?

[FluffyCalico]

Waitaminute. Are you saying the cleric's capstone is simply carrying the burden of Heavy Fort that every tank should already have?

Or is this something else entirely different? Like something that stacks with Hvy Fort?

Try reading 5 more words of the post. I know I know its more fun to whine and cry about whatever then to see how it could be useful. Like the 6 CHA clerics are crying in another thead that now they have to reroll to use it.
You can also add a third of sleeping cleric and a 4th of lag.

[Fenrisulven6]

/reposted

Divine Intervention
Prereq: Level 20 Cleric, 74 Action points spent
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You are a strong conduit of positive energy, and can expend a turn attempt to ward your target for five minutes against mortal damage - hit point damage will not lower their hit point total below -9. If the target is knocked unconscious, this effect will heal the target after a few seconds and then fade.

Players that have gone through the Korthos Island experience may remember Cellimas' Protection from Death effect - this is an altered version of that tutorial spell. Essentially, while this effect is on your target, they cannot die from hit point damage. Instant death effects like Implosion or Finger of Death bypass this protection, however, so keep those Deathblock items on, and it fades a few seconds after being forced to activate. Still, that's one less dead person!

[Rholt25]

A "Crit" u know it keep u from dying from a crit, so if sumone from "Great Crittain" try to kill you u won't die

LOL

Those pesky crits, always lurking up behind me. I got a +5 rapier of lesser crit bane, it helps put them down though.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

the cooldown on the casting of the spell will make it unpractical for the cleric to cast it on more than one person in a raid - so the cleric will have to make a tough decision - does he cast it on himself or does he cast it on the main tank...? Will groups insist that the cleric cast on a certain player or will the cleric be able to decide for himself.

I for one am quite looking forward to it - it means my cleric can now melee Harry in both part 3 and 4 with impunity. :)

Garth

[Angelus_dead]

the cooldown on the casting of the spell will make it unpractical for the cleric to cast it on more than one person
What cooldown?

No, really. What cooldown?

[branmakmuffin]

What cooldown?

No, really. What cooldown?
When you put the pillow in the freezer.

[Narmolanya]

Haven't heard a out this until now. What a joke! Totaly agree with the OP its time for a harbor cleric sit in!!!

[bobbryan2]

What cooldown?

No, really. What cooldown?

I think it's the time period of sobbing after you cast it and wishing you had +2 wisdom, and -1 to all metamagic.

[Gunga]

Clerics are already far too powerful. They gotta dumb the capstone down. Which is fine, because all clerics should have 1 level of barbarian anyway.

[Angelus_dead]

I think it's the time period of sobbing after you cast it and wishing you had +2 wisdom, and -1 to all metamagic.
That does raise an entertaining hypothetical:
Suppose mod9 gave clerics three capstones, and you could take any one of:
1. Divine Intervention: spend turn to protect from hitpoint death
2. Master of Magic: +2 intelligence and -1 meta costs
3. Musical Prodigy: +2 charisma, spell pen, and enchantment DC

Which would be most popular??

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

What cooldown?

No, really. What cooldown?

Eladrin uses the word cooldown in his post, so I presume it has more than just the normal 'DV cooldown', but I might just be reading too much into it.

Garth

[Ganidel]

That does raise an entertaining hypothetical:
Suppose mod9 gave clerics three capstones, and you could take any one of:
1. Divine Intervention: spend turn to protect from hitpoint death
2. Master of Magic: +2 intelligence and -1 meta costs
3. Musical Prodigy: +2 charisma, spell pen, and enchantment DC

Which would be most popular??

I'd still take the cleric capstone, but it shouldnt be a capstone as ppl have stated its a lvl 4 cleric spell.
Its feals more like we arent getting a capstone at all.

Lets put this where it should be or make it a non capstone enhancement.

[Eternity25]

I don't think clerics should begin complaining that other classes have better capstones. That might result in nerfs, just like the crying of other classes that weren't leading kill counts resulted in the barb crit range nerf and a possible W/P in the future or the cause of all the W/P nerf rumors. I agree the cleric capstones isn't as useful as the others but I don't think it's something to major complain about. There might be future capstone choices in other mods. It was also stated by the devs that if people began to complain about capstones, there would be no more previews. I think we should respect the decision they made and hope we get more cleric capstones in the future. We should enjoy the previews the devs give us and do anything to jeopardize that priveledge.

[Angelus_dead]

The most useful capstones will be passive ones, like what every other class gets. So, to build your own replacement cleric capstone, pick 2 or 3 things from the following list.

+2 wisdom
+10% healing magic
10% less spellpoint cost for healing spells
Spells targeted on yourself are automatically Quickened, for free
When you damage an enemy, the next spell you cast on an ally has +2 CL. When you heal another creature, the next spell you cast on an enemy has +2 CL and +1 DC, and you have +1 weapon damage for 10 seconds.
When you heal another creature, 50% of the spell benefit reflects onto you.
When you damage an enemy you gain 5 temporary spellpoints. On a crit you gain 5*mult. Those spellpoints are used before regular ones, but do not stack with each other.
When your spell would bring a creature above 100% hp, a portion of the spellpoints are returned to you.
When your spell would bring a creature above 100% hp, a portion of the excess applies as temporary hitpoints.
When your spell would bring a creature above 100% hp, it gains a heal over time effect.
Allies close to you gain 4 hp every 10 sec, if they are under 50% hp. Undead take that as damage. Undead who strike you must roll a will save or be paralyzed with fear.
On a natural 20, you can crit an undead.
You gain spells like Haste, Greater Heroism, Rage, Fear, Charm, and Disintegrate.

[Eternity25]

The most useful capstones will be passive ones, like what every other class gets. So, to build your own replacement cleric capstone, pick 2 or 3 things from the following list.

+2 wisdom
+10% healing magic
10% less spellpoint cost for healing spells
Spells targeted on yourself are automatically Quickened, for free
When you damage an enemy, the next spell you cast on an ally has +2 CL. When you heal another creature, the next spell you cast on an enemy has +2 CL and +1 DC, and you have +1 weapon damage for 10 seconds.
When you heal another creature, 50% of the spell benefit reflects onto you.
When you damage an enemy you gain 5 temporary spellpoints. On a crit you gain 5*mult. Those spellpoints are used before regular ones, but do not stack with each other.
When your spell would bring a creature above 100% hp, a portion of the spellpoints are returned to you.
When your spell would bring a creature above 100% hp, a portion of the excess applies as temporary hitpoints.
When your spell would bring a creature above 100% hp, it gains a heal over time effect.
Allies close to you gain 4 hp every 10 sec, if they are under 50% hp. Undead take that as damage. Undead who strike you must roll a will save or be paralyzed with fear.
On a natural 20, you can crit an undead.
You gain spells like Haste, Greater Heroism, Rage, Fear, Charm, and Disintegrate.


If I had a choice from your list, I would choose +2 Wis and -10% to Healing spellpoint costs.

[FluffyCalico]

Well +2 wisdom would be a sucky thing for the cleric capstone unless you are a pure offensive caster. You get almost no SP from +1 modifier on wisdom. All you really are getting of notice would be +1 spell DC on offensive spells. To me that is not particually great for something that spends 80% of the time healing and casting friendly spells all of which spell DC doesn't effect.

[Memnir]

Eladrin has stated that most, if not all, classes will be getting more than one capstone - just not in Mod 9. The other capstones will likely trickle out in the updates from Mod 9 going forward. So, for those who don't like their classes capstone could either multiclass out of frustration - not spend the 2 SP on the capstone if they stay pure - or wait a bit to see if something better comes down the pike.


The quote was:

"The next module brings a selection of new Prestige Enhancements to some classes and expands some existing lines for others, but every class will gain a Capstone Enhancement to celebrate reaching 20 levels in the class. A character may only possess a single Capstone Enhancement at a time. (At this moment it's academic as there will be one for each class, but other choices will likely be added in the future.)"

[moops]

/signed

Don't play with people who even get close to incap, so this is useless to my clerics.

SPELL PEN/ SPELL DC would be nice, a perfect incentive for staying pure.

Heck, I would even take the Bard capstone over the Cleric capstone

3. Musical Prodigy: +2 charisma, spell pen, and enchantment DC

[Ganidel]

/signed

Don't play with people who even get close to incap, so this is useless to my clerics.

SPELL PEN/ SPELL DC would be nice, a perfect incentive for staying pure.

Heck, I would even take the Bard capstone over the Cleric capstone

3. Musical Prodigy: +2 charisma, spell pen, and enchantment DC

As the Devs have stated, there will be more capstones for all classes in future, but only one with mod 9.

Also I think the only thing to realy be bothered about it is that its a lvl 4 spell in pnp, maybe you group with ppl that never incap but most others do, and this capstone sounds useful, plus it sounds as if you can use it on your self.

As I posted above this should not be a capstone but granted spell/enhancement.


Either way ppl will use it as it will be used on those squishy players, at least untell they come out with something else.

[FluffyCalico]

Just more "battle clerics" crying how dare you make the capstone useful to healers and not to battle clerics

[Angelus_dead]

Competition for Turns

Another problem is that it's yet another thing you can spend Turn Undead on. Existing clerics come in two kinds:
1. Those whose charisma is very low so they have barely any turns.
2. Those with high charisma who already have something they like to spend turns on.

[Angelus_dead]

Just more "battle clerics" crying how dare you make the capstone useful to healers and not to battle clerics
Backwards.

If you spend all your time healing, then you probably heal people before they go incap. The characters who will benefit are battle-clerics, who'd like to be able to go fight without concentrating to instantly heal anyone who gets a little low.

[Ganidel]

Competition for Turns

Another problem is that it's yet another thing you can spend Turn Undead on. Existing clerics come in two kinds:
1. Those whose charisma is very low so they have barely any turns.
2. Those with high charisma who already have something they like to spend turns on.


/agree

[Dimz]

You do know there will be multiple capstones for each class?

[FluffyCalico]

Competition for Turns

Another problem is that it's yet another thing you can spend Turn Undead on. Existing clerics come in two kinds:
1. Those whose charisma is very low so they have barely any turns.
2. Those with high charisma who already have something they like to spend turns on.

No one forced you to make a cleric with 6CHA. Even the guilde told you it was a major stat for clerics.

[bobbryan2]

No one forced you to make a cleric with 6CHA. Even the guilde told you it was a major stat for clerics.

Would it make you feel better if I said I not 1, not 2, but 3 or more high charisma clerics that think this is worthless?

Stop being so paralyzed in your belief that only 6 cha clerics think this sucks, because you're wrong.

[FluffyCalico]

Would it make you feel better if I said I not 1, not 2, but 3 or more high charisma clerics that think this is worthless?

Stop being so paralyzed in your belief that only 6 cha clerics think this sucks, because you're wrong.

Sorry but +1 spell DC is pretty much worthless too. Wow when you occasionally cast an offensive spell you have 5% more chance to hit on that spell you cast 1-2 times per dungeon and no effect to all the others you cast at all. WOW sign me up for some of that.

[bobbryan2]

Sorry but +1 spell DC is pretty much worthless too. Wow when you occasionally cast an offensive spell you have 5% more chance to hit on that spell you cast 1-2 times per dungeon and no effect to all the others you cast at all. WOW sign me up for some of that.

Better than an active ability of limited usefulness that's competing with DVs and other turn based abilities ....

I'd much rather have a few SP, lower SP while casting, +1 DC of ALL spells...

[Noctus]

If you spend all your time healing, then you probably heal people before they go incap. The characters who will benefit are battle-clerics, who'd like to be able to go fight without concentrating to instantly heal anyone who gets a little low.

I concure.
This Capstone will be very helpfull to battleclerics. Not so much to healbots, but still very nice.

[FluffyCalico]

Better than an active ability of limited usefulness that's competing with DVs and other turn based abilities ....

I'd much rather have a few SP, lower SP while casting, +1 DC of ALL spells...

You have the right to your opinion just as I have the right to mine.

PS> +1 DC to healing and friendly spells isn't even taken into account as they don't miss. So you can say "ALL spells" all you want, it won't change the fact it doesn't effect most the things a standard cleric casts.

This is also the reason each class will be getting more than 1 capstone. Also the usefulness of the no die from hp loss spell will be determined by the new quests and raids, and if you can rez during the fights. 2 things that neither of us knows at this point.

[paldera]

The most useful capstones will be passive ones, like what every other class gets. So, to build your own replacement cleric capstone, pick 2 or 3 things from the following list.

+2 wisdom
+10% healing magic
10% less spellpoint cost for healing spells
Spells targeted on yourself are automatically Quickened, for free
When you damage an enemy, the next spell you cast on an ally has +2 CL. When you heal another creature, the next spell you cast on an enemy has +2 CL and +1 DC, and you have +1 weapon damage for 10 seconds.
When you heal another creature, 50% of the spell benefit reflects onto you.
When you damage an enemy you gain 5 temporary spellpoints. On a crit you gain 5*mult. Those spellpoints are used before regular ones, but do not stack with each other.
When your spell would bring a creature above 100% hp, a portion of the spellpoints are returned to you.
When your spell would bring a creature above 100% hp, a portion of the excess applies as temporary hitpoints.
When your spell would bring a creature above 100% hp, it gains a heal over time effect.
Allies close to you gain 4 hp every 10 sec, if they are under 50% hp. Undead take that as damage. Undead who strike you must roll a will save or be paralyzed with fear.
On a natural 20, you can crit an undead.
You gain spells like Haste, Greater Heroism, Rage, Fear, Charm, and Disintegrate.


I like the Idea Of Less Spell Point Cost and A benefit for healing someone over 100%
How many times have you healed someone right after I did and got upset for wasting precious mana>

Of coarse a minimum level 5 cleric should have to pay half price for heal scrolls/wands/ect as well.
:confused:
But in the world of the mice. We follow the maze built for us>

[moops]

PS> +1 DC to healing and friendly spells isn't even taken into account as they don't miss. So you can say "ALL spells" all you want, it won't change the fact it doesn't effect most the things a standard cleric casts.


+1 DC would help the standard spells that I cast-- Symbol of Stunning,Greater Command, Hold Person, Soundburst, Cometfall, Slay Living, Destruction, Symbol of death, Bestow Curse, Harm.

My Enchanment focused cleric added Greater Spell Focus Enchanment recently, and just that +1 made a pretty big difference, yet, she still can't command 50 percent of the time in the Sub T.

My Necro Focused Cleric has played around with carrying just one of the necro focuses, and both of the necro spell focus, and again I saw a huge difference in just another +1 in the success rate of Slay Living, Destruction, harm and bestow Curse--and still there are areas where my success rate is horrible.

Both clerics take the full spell pen feats as well as enhancements and have all the best gear in the game as well as heighten which they rarely turn off.

So for me, I would love another +1 to DC or even Spell Pen, though +1 DC would be more useful for all 4 of my clerics.

I would hope that the Standard cleric would at least be casting the Crowd Control Spells that clerics carry--and this is where +1 would come in really useful as amny of our Crowd Control Spells come from different spell focus schools.

I love Heighten Soundburst so much that I have a lowbie cleric coming up who will be specializing in evocation.

Also--in end game content, CLerics use the Heal spell as an attack spell on a couple bosses and a few mobs--+1 helps here too.

[Angelus_dead]

Better than an active ability of limited usefulness that's competing with DVs and other turn based abilities ....
The active ability is a key problem of the capstone. All of the other capstones are passive, and that helps them be better.

You see, it's difficult for a designer to provide a new active power at level 20 which is useful, and yet not overpowered. A weak ability means it might not be worth the time to push the icon, but a strong ability means that playing a cleric20 is too different from how it feels at levels 1-19.

(The easiest way to make an effective "active" ability is to make it quasi-passive; ie, a self-buff for 60+ seconds)

[FluffyCalico]

The active ability is a key problem of the capstone. All of the other capstones are passive, and that helps them be better.

You see, it's difficult for a designer to provide a new active power at level 20 which is useful, and yet not overpowered. A weak ability means it might not be worth the time to push the icon, but a strong ability means that playing a cleric20 is too different from how it feels at levels 1-19.

(The easiest way to make an effective "active" ability is to make it quasi-passive; ie, a self-buff for 60+ seconds)

The true solution would have been to make multiclassing work correctly instead of this bastardized version we have. Then the reason to stay pure class would be built in. It's always hard to fix X without taking away X. Since they overpowered multiclassing now they are trying to fix it without nerfing them.

Really to bring things back in line clerics and casters that are pure would need like +15% to healing and damage spells.
Simpily put the way multiclassing in this online version works is completely borked.

[GlassCannon]

A what?


A Critical Hit - You know, the thing we get to do all the time, but the monsters never can? They'll get stuff that bypasses 100% of Fortification, making that precious Minos Legens obsolete.

[Mistinarperadnacles]

/reposted

Divine Intervention
Prereq: Level 20 Cleric, 74 Action points spent
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You are a strong conduit of positive energy, and can expend a turn attempt to ward your target for five minutes against mortal damage - hit point damage will not lower their hit point total below -9. If the target is knocked unconscious, this effect will heal the target after a few seconds and then fade.

Very dependent on what this means. If it means they get automatic Diehard and stand up on 1 hp only to get killed twice (or 3 times in quick succession if they're unfortunate enough to be a Rogue 20 too) then it does indeed suck.

If it means that they get the effective of a Heal cast on them from me (400-1200 hit points worth) then I'm happy with that.

[FluffyCalico]

Very dependent on what this means. If it means they get automatic Diehard and stand up on 1 hp only to get killed twice (or 3 times in quick succession if they're unfortunate enough to be a Rogue 20 too) then it does indeed suck.

If it means that they get the effective of a Heal cast on them from me (400-1200 hit points worth) then I'm happy with that.

More likely 1 HP which doesn't matter because if your cleric can't give you a heal in a few seconds you are blocked from going below -9 you are gonna die anyway

[Pyromaniac]

Clerics have a pretty good capstone - to make it any more powerful would eliminate the possibility of multiclassed clerics. Clerics are also the most powerful class in the game in my opinion already.

[ace_mason]

STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH OP.
Are you really whining about this capstone. This is a kick ass cap stone for a cleric. You can garuntee for 5 minutes non of you party can die. Having the ability to grant your party imortality for 5 minutes seems like a pretty nice spell to me. Not to mention it doesnt just keep them at -9 if you can heal them it heals them for you after a few seconds.
What the hell would be a good capstone? +2 to wisdom?

[Eternity25]

The capstone really gives 5 minutes at holding you at -9 even if you were attacked?

[Talcyndl]

A Critical Hit - You know, the thing we get to do all the time, but the monsters never can? They'll get stuff that bypasses 100% of Fortification, making that precious Minos Legens obsolete.

Why obsolete? Just because it will no longer be 100% protection, doesn't mean it will be useless. 75% or even 25% is still helpful. Not to mention the 20hps.

[Talcyndl]

STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH OP.
Are you really whining about this capstone. This is a kick ass cap stone for a cleric. You can garuntee for 5 minutes non of you party can die. Having the ability to grant your party imortality for 5 minutes seems like a pretty nice spell to me. Not to mention it doesnt just keep them at -9 if you can heal them it heals them for you after a few seconds.
What the hell would be a good capstone? +2 to wisdom?

Agreed. I read it as it "Heals" them. Much more useful than +2 Wisdom.

Now some arcanes may be a bit upset that they won't be gettting as many DVs, but...

[Lorien_the_First_One]

The capstone really gives 5 minutes at holding you at -9 even if you were attacked?

The one in the Korthos trainer won't let anything kill you while you are protected, I've tried :p

[VirieSquichie]

That does raise an entertaining hypothetical:
Suppose mod9 gave clerics three capstones, and you could take any one of:
1. Divine Intervention: spend turn to protect from hitpoint death
2. Master of Magic: +2 intelligence and -1 meta costs
3. Musical Prodigy: +2 charisma, spell pen, and enchantment DC

Which would be most popular??

Any of my clerics would take #3 over #1 any day, and twice on PUG days.

GC, Hold and charm/suggestion/persuasion spells are all Enchantment. DV/DH/DC use turns which are based off CHA. Spell Pen...need I say anything about that?

[redoubt]

That does raise an entertaining hypothetical:
Suppose mod9 gave clerics three capstones, and you could take any one of:
1. Divine Intervention: spend turn to protect from hitpoint death
2. Master of Magic: +2 intelligence and -1 meta costs
3. Musical Prodigy: +2 charisma, spell pen, and enchantment DC

Which would be most popular??

My cleric will take #3 please. :D

[Angelus_dead]

Are you really whining about this capstone. This is a kick ass cap stone for a cleric. You can garuntee for 5 minutes non of you party can die. Having the ability to grant your party imortality for 5 minutes seems like a pretty nice spell to me.
First, most clerics are pretty unlikely to have 6 turns, and they surely won't have 12 turns.


Not to mention it doesnt just keep them at -9 if you can heal them it heals them for you after a few seconds.
That's a problem of interpretation of the enhancement description. It would be nice if the buff lasted for 5 minutes, and during that time the character couldn't go past -9, giving you much extra time to heal him, and only expiring early if he sat there several seconds without being helped to 1 hp.

And for all we know, maybe it does work that way. However, that's not how the preview description is written. The key line is:
"If the target is knocked unconscious, this effect will heal the target after a few seconds and then fade."
That means that if the person goes to 0 hp or lower, the buff ends a couple seconds later. It does not mention a possibility to heal the guy to 1 hp yourself to prevent the buff from firing. As written, anytime he goes unconcisous, the effect ends soon after that. (Why, technically it would even end if he were unconscious with 100% hp, like from a Sleep spell)

Eladrin could have written the line differently to make it a more powerful ability. It could have gone like this:
"If the target is knocked unconscious for a few seconds, this effect will heal the target and then fade." That would be a more powerful ability. And there's a slim possibility that's how it actually will work, and the writeup we got was in error. That would make it's power closer to the other capstones.

[rimble]

Cleric Capstone: You can use your Cleric clickies (DH, DV, etc, but c'mon, y'know we're just talking DVs) on yourself (commence low-Charisma riot). :D

[tihocan]

I like the capstone myself, pretty happy about it :)

[Kalari]

As I said in the capstone thread this capstone wont make me regret having 2 multiclass clerics, and my pure cleric may or may not spend the action points to use it. Raiding wise I dont see myself needing it with the groups im lucky to run with but you never know. I just hope it does not become one of those "cleric must have to join xy quest or raid" type deals. And even if this is implimented as it was stated before not all clerics have 12 dv's mine currently stop at 9.

Im not against the capstone I just think im going to probably like playing my wizard more now then playing my cleric.

[Deathseeker]

I disagree with a lot of the common perception here...

1. +2 Wisdom? A few spellpoints and a +1 to your DC? Oh, and another will save. That isnt exactly a phenomenal gain.

2. This capstone is impossible to judge effectively without playing the new content. Several things could make this extremely valuable...


Could save players from a penalty box, making it a game changer

Could save you from a failed save that would mean instant death

Could be critical in maintaining buffs in a quest where certain buffs are life savers. In a Hero method raid or when an Intimitank is taking primary aggro, maintaining those buffs may be more mana friendly than some of the other capstones

Could prevent a party wipe if one or two toons have this on and a catastrophic event occurs

3. Saying this capstone isnt useful because no Cleric has a huge amount of turns is backwards. First, because that isnt true, and second, because if this capstone is helpful you'll see more clerics with a large amount of turns.

4. Why is there an assumption that all classes have to have equally capable capstones? In half the threads on these forums people complain that certain classes need love (ie Bards). Then a bard capstone comes along nicer than a Cleric's, and the whining starts about how weak the Cleric capstone is. Clerics are an extremely powerful and versital class in DDO right now, so they may have decided to temper down the Capstone a little in comparison.

5. The game gets a little boring if all the capstones are "+2 to stat, higher dc, more mana". This capstone opens up some new strategic play.

I am NOT saying that this is the ultimate capstone and should discourage every Cleric from multiclassing. I am saying that the tendency for everyone to immediately dismiss it because it isnt a base stat or dc adjustment, without any playtesting first, is jumping the gun. The dev's have one big advantage over us...they actually know what the upcoming content looks like.

[Bloodhaven]

3 years I have been playing my cleric, sitting at level 16 for so long I forgot that the game actually has XP and what I get to show for it is a 4th level spell that should already be in the game 18 months ago ?



What spell list is this in? Quote your source?
This is not a troll, I would relay like to see this spell description.

http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spellLists.htm

[Chaos000]

the cooldown on the casting of the spell will make it unpractical for the cleric to cast it on more than one person in a raid - so the cleric will have to make a tough decision - does he cast it on himself or does he cast it on the main tank...? Will groups insist that the cleric cast on a certain player or will the cleric be able to decide for himself.

it might work like dv's where he can cast it on anybody BUT himself

[Vengenance]

Sorry but +1 spell DC is pretty much worthless too. Wow when you occasionally cast an offensive spell you have 5% more chance to hit on that spell you cast 1-2 times per dungeon and no effect to all the others you cast at all. WOW sign me up for some of that.

Just because you like to play a nanny babysitting cleric doesn't mean others want to play that way. I'd personally love another +1 to my spell DCs or a bonus to spell penetration or a few extra spell points over turn based abilities.

[nytewolf]

The Spell this is based off of is called Delay Death and is on page 63 of the Spell Compendium. Basically what the spell does in this source book is keep you from dieing from HP loss it does not stop HP loss you just dont die while the spell is going. So if your at -35 hp your still alive until the spell wears off. Insta kills (FoD or Destruction) Still kill the character.

[Angelus_dead]

The Spell this is based off of is called Delay Death and is on page 63 of the Spell Compendium.
Delay Death has no feature to heal the subject to positive hps, nor to expire prematurely when the subject is incapacitated.

[Angelus_dead]

2. This capstone is impossible to judge effectively without playing the new content. Several things could make this extremely valuable...

Could save players from a penalty box, making it a game changer
Yes, and are you aware how it would be bad for gameplay if a single capstone is such a "game changer", and there are raids where you need cleric20 for healers, and cleric19/pal1 won't do it?

[Deathseeker]

Yes, and are you aware how it would be bad for gameplay if a single capstone is such a "game changer", and there are raids where you need cleric20 for healers, and cleric19/pal1 won't do it?

"Need" is the key word you used. Yes, if you "need" a 20 cleric then that's bad. But if a 20 cleric "is advantageous" then that isnt a big problem. If its easier to complete bringing along a 20 cleric, but not impossible without, then this capstone may shine. If its impossible without one, then that's just silly game design.

If penalty boxes or other "you die your out of the fight" mechanics are used in important places in mod 9 content, then this capstone jumps in value. If not, then this factor is irrelevant.

And yes, if this mechanic "requires" this capstone to complete the quest, then its silly game design.

[nytewolf]

Delay Death has no feature to heal the subject to positive hps, nor to expire prematurely when the subject is incapacitated.

I fully understand there are differences between the two in implementation. But the basic concept of the capstone is drawn from the spell. That was the answer I gave for the person requesting a source.

[Chaos000]

I wish they instead did a self-dv capstone. that would be a nice boost to a lvl 20 cleric.

definitely save on mana pots and I'm sure the blade barrier specc'ed pure cleric would appreciate the extra mana for more dps capability.

[Hendrik]

I like the capstone myself, pretty happy about it :)

I like it too!

Glad I have stayed pure. This reads as if it will be a 'death immunity' of sorts. Hell, I can think of a great many times I could have used that in a party/Raid.

Looking forward to playing with this one.

Love reading all the 'Whaaa! Bard's got +2 to CHA, why can I?" post's. They brighten my day, thank you everyone...

:cool:

[Newtons_Apple]

Devine Intervention? Your kidding right ?

Where is the +2 stat that you are tossing out to the other casting classes?

3 years I have been playing my cleric, sitting at level 16 for so long I forgot that the game actually has XP and what I get to show for it is a 4th level spell that should already be in the game 18 months ago ?

Sad day for clerics this will be. Just another waste of a "turn" to keep other classes happy. You can all kiss your DVs goodbye. The second everyone walks in the dungeon they will begin complaining (I want to say *****ing, but [the language filter] won't let me) that they need Divine intervention.

The clerics of Stormreach should gather in Korthos for a sit in and refuse to heal anyone on the day before the scheduled release of this pathetic excuse for a capstone.

Aspenor already called this spell a spell here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=165540). And here is the spell:

Originally Posted by Spell Compendium
DELAY DEATH
Necromancy
Level: Cleric 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 immediate action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
(harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
You gesture toward your ally and call upon
the power of your beliefs. A soft, golden glow
appears on your companion’s chest, around
his heart.
The subject of this powerful spell is unable to die from hit point damage. While under the protection of this spell, the normal limit of –9 hit points before a character dies is extended without limit. A condition or spell that destroys enough of the subject’s body so as to not allow raise dead to work, such as a disintegrate effect, still kills the creature, as does death brought about by ability score damage, level drain, or a death effect. The spell does not prevent the subject from entering the dying state by dropping to –1 hit points. It merely prevents death as a result of hit point loss. If the subject has fewer than –9 hit points when the spell’s duration expires, it dies instantly.

I agree with the OP. Why don't we just get this spell and then a real capstone? I haven't logged my cleric on a regular basis for some time now mainly because I'm so tired of healing people. This spell isn't a capstone to me and gives me a ho-hum attitude toward capping my cleric.

[Angelus_dead]

"Need" is the key word you used.
Nope. Actually, "critical" is the word you used. That's stronger than "need", but is effectively synonymous.

[Newtons_Apple]

What spell list is this in? Quote your source?
This is not a troll, I would relay like to see this spell description.

http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spellLists.htm

Looks like you can find the spell in Races of Destiny, one of the many add-on books for 3.5.

[SqtYork]

/signed ... it sucks. I really need yet another enabler to be an idiot's life support system.

I prefer you just let Cleric's put members from their team after 3 warnings LOL

[Talcyndl]

Unless I'm missing something, the capstone (proposed) has an additional part, above what Delay Death gives. Namely, that it heals the target as well. Seems like this will be a VERY useful ability in certain quests. Especially endgame raids where deaths are somewhat common.

[Talcyndl]

/signed ... it sucks. I really need yet another enabler to be an idiot's life support system

Using this means you have to spend less effort being the idiot's life support system. Use one turn on idiot then don't worry (nearly as much) about them dying.

[Angelus_dead]

Seems like this will be a VERY useful ability in certain quests. Especially endgame raids where deaths are somewhat common.
It does not seem that way; especially not in raids.

The minor auto-heal provided by Divine Intervention will only be really useful if there's nobody else around to heal the person (like if you're solo and cast it on yourself). In a raid (or just a party), when someone goes incap, multiple other players will rush to heal him.

[xberto]

Love reading all the 'Whaaa! Bard's got +2 to CHA, why can I?" post's. They brighten my day, thank you everyone...

:cool:

I with you!! The forums are flooded with Whaaaaa! I think it's a good capstone. Could be very useful now and mabye even necessary in future content.

[Deathseeker]

Let's consider how this Cleric capstone would work in a typical raid scenario...everyone grouped around the rednamed boss while receiving mass cures/heals.

Today, without this, if a player loses health beyond -9 due to a huge hit (ie failed save on a delayed blast fireball), they die. It requires someone to rez them, then rebuff, and then they are back in the fight. That is a dps reduction on the boss, as well as takes someone to rez them, and possibly multiple toons to rebuff them.

With this capstone, they go incap at -9. They get mass cured/healed as part of the process without it stopping, keep their buffs, and keep on truckin against the boss.

That seems like a pretty significant benefit during a primary raid battle...

I really think playtesting may show this isnt quite as bad of a capstone as everyone thinks.

[bobbryan2]

Let's consider how this Cleric capstone would work in a typical raid scenario...everyone grouped around the rednamed boss while receiving mass cures/heals.

Today, without this, if a player loses health beyond -9 due to a huge hit (ie failed save on a delayed blast fireball), they die. It requires someone to rez them, then rebuff, and then they are back in the fight. That is a dps reduction on the boss, as well as takes someone to rez them, and possibly multiple toons to rebuff them.

With this capstone, they go incap at -9. They get mass cured/healed as part of the process without it stopping, keep their buffs, and keep on truckin against the boss.

That seems like a pretty significant benefit during a primary raid battle...

I really think playtesting may show this isnt quite as bad of a capstone as everyone thinks.

It's not 'bad', in the sense that it's advantageous. But it's the equivalent of a 4th level spell... and should be available to 7th level clerics, not 20th.

And honestly... I'd prefer the actual spell to this implementation. No heal, but you never go incap.. you just keep fighting till the duration is up.

[Angelus_dead]

And honestly... I'd prefer the actual spell to this implementation. No heal, but you never go incap.. you just keep fighting till the duration is up.
That is not how the actual spell works, as I thought someone had already quoted. You still fall incap at 0 hp, but you don't die at -10. You can proceed down to -50 or -500 or further and remain incap, until it expires and you die.

To allow a buffed character to keep fighting at unlimited negative hp would be flagrantly amazingly overpowered in DDO.

However, even directly translating the actual spell would be overpowered as well. That's because DDO has a greater emphasis on hitpoint damage, and makes healing easier in various ways. If a D&D monster brings a player to -15 hp and somehow can't kill him, he has many other options to remove that player as a threat (steal the weapons, throw the body out a window, etc), but a DDO mob is stuck with no recourse.

[Deathseeker]

(steal the weapons, throw the body out a window, etc), but a DDO mob is stuck with no recourse.

Now those are some cool mob abilities I'd like to see added! Pit Fiend grabs your Min II from you and proceeds to beat you down with it. Once your dead, he throws you over the wall in Part 5 and out of the quest. He keeps your Min II...

I think this is the point Parvo chimes in on the virtues of Permadeath?

[Zigana]

First, most clerics are pretty unlikely to have 6 turns, and they surely won't have 12 turns.

Hmmm. My capped cleric has 19. My lvl 5 cleric has 11. I like having my clerics set up to help out the caster's in the party. A lot of my friends who play clerics have similar.

[Nick_RC]

Sorry but +1 spell DC is pretty much worthless too. Wow when you occasionally cast an offensive spell you have 5% more chance to hit on that spell you cast 1-2 times per dungeon and no effect to all the others you cast at all. WOW sign me up for some of that.

Jusdging by this and ur other posts - what sort of cleric do you play????? Hireling?? Cleric offensive casts are very very powerful and if you are only casting a couple a quest no wonder you have to heal so much. There are mayeb 3 situations in the game when a cleric should be only healing - when taking their turn in part 4, healing dogs/chewtoy in hound/ and when adds are down in vod.

Edit 1 :This capstone is useless. Its not even oh well thats kinda useful. Its useless.

Edit 2 :Its not even a toss up to stay pure. 2 monk or 1 sorc or 1 ftr/barb is way more useful.

[Talcyndl]

In a raid (or just a party), when someone goes incap, multiple other players will rush to heal him.

Must run in different circles. I'm thinking of a quest like VoD where the clerics are focused on healing the entire party. If someone dies, they can't always immediately raise someone. And when they do, it can lead to other dying.

Not having to worry about the raise in such situations is, IMO, pretty worthwhile.

[Talcyndl]

Let's consider how this Cleric capstone would work in a typical raid scenario...everyone grouped around the rednamed boss while receiving mass cures/heals.

Today, without this, if a player loses health beyond -9 due to a huge hit (ie failed save on a delayed blast fireball), they die. It requires someone to rez them, then rebuff, and then they are back in the fight. That is a dps reduction on the boss, as well as takes someone to rez them, and possibly multiple toons to rebuff them.

With this capstone, they go incap at -9. They get mass cured/healed as part of the process without it stopping, keep their buffs, and keep on truckin against the boss.

That seems like a pretty significant benefit during a primary raid battle...

I really think playtesting may show this isnt quite as bad of a capstone as everyone thinks.

Yup.

[Talcyndl]

it's the equivalent of a 4th level spell

Except it also heals the target. Which the 4th level spell does not. So it's much more automatic than the spell.

[branmakmuffin]

/signed ... it sucks. I really need yet another enabler to be an idiot's life support system.
Solution: stop playing with idiots; or, stop playing a cleric.

[ShaeNightbird]

Or keep playing your cleric, stop healing the idiots. You'll become very popular, very quickly.

[Hendrik]

*snip*

I really think playtesting may show this isnt quite as bad of a capstone as everyone thinks.

But, but, it's much more constructive to post how useless it is without even using it! Jeez, what are you thinking man?!?!?!

;)

Best part of this thread is people that don't even PLAY a CLR stating how useless it is.

Priceless.

[nytewolf]

Thing to consider regarding the healing aspect of the capstone. It does not notate the kind of healing it provides. Some people could think this might mean Heal Spell. Though it could be a much more limited healing effect. Without further information regarding mechanics of the capstone only time will tell if its a complete waste or if its actually useful.

But I can also see a side effect of this capstone:

Cleric 1: Can you DV me up so I can do next round mass healing?
Cleric 2: Sorry no Dv's had to use my Turns for Divine Intervention on the tanks and squishy's. Hope you have Mana pots.

[Cacofonix]

Clerics are already far too powerful. They gotta dumb the capstone down. Which is fine, because all clerics should have 1 level of barbarian anyway.

Well the problem is that playing a cleric is too expensive, so most people log their cleric in to help their guild or friends and then level other toons. You know how many raids I have done that cost me 35k+ plat and at the end one or two people only hand me 1k or 2k plat? No I am not whining about being a broke cleric but I am just suggesting that anything that turbine might do to make raid cleric'ing less costly is a good thing! :-)

[Perceval]

Several good points on both sides of the arguement from what I read. I still think it is a weak capstone because it relies on Turns. I ran a test character through Korthos to get a taste of it and if the character falls below -9 hit points they are completely healed. If this is the case it might be even more of a nightmare then a blessing. Everyone will want it on them at all times. Then again, if someone really ****es me off, they might accidently get a DV instead of DI.

Keep them coming, both sides....

[Chaos000]

But I can also see a side effect of this capstone:

Cleric 1: Can you DV me up so I can do next round mass healing?
Cleric 2: Sorry no Dv's had to use my Turns for Divine Intervention on the tanks and squishy's. Hope you have Mana pots.

moot issue. if they have to go an extra round of mass healing then the dps isn't doing their jobs. :D

[moops]

I think this Capstone will just make pugs listen less, and play worse.

I got the VOD down so that I rarely have to throw individual heals if people listen and attack Sally right, and fight the Devils in the webs where we just mass heal. Most VODS there are no deaths or even close to incaps, even on elite--So I'm not so sure that this level 4 Spell is needed, and unless the new Content is like the Abbot, I'm sure we will work it out just like we always have, without the capstone, esp since we can't get it for 3 levels.

My CLerics have 16/12/12/12 DVs.

[Angelus_dead]

Must run in different circles. I'm thinking of a quest like VoD where the clerics are focused on healing the entire party. If someone dies, they can't always immediately raise someone.
In DDO, the conditions "dead" and "incap" function very differently in terms of gameplay, and are displayed differently in the party list.

[Talcyndl]

In DDO, the conditions "dead" and "incap" function very differently in terms of gameplay, and are displayed differently in the party list.

And? I'm missing your point here.

[Angelus_dead]

And? I'm missing your point here.
Yes, you are.

I made a comment about being incap, and you made a reply about being dead. Your reply was unrelated my comment, indicating that you're not following the conversation.

[bobbryan2]

But, but, it's much more constructive to post how useless it is without even using it! Jeez, what are you thinking man?!?!?!

;)

Best part of this thread is people that don't even PLAY a CLR stating how useless it is.

Priceless.

Because it's so much more constructive to say it will be awesome without playtesting?

What makes you think your point which is completely devoid of experience is better than someone else's point which is completely devoid of experience. Not to mention... you might stand on more ground if they didn't even tell us what it did...

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

The cleric capstone - just one more reason to splash a level or two of monk.

[Angelus_dead]

The cleric capstone - just one more reason to splash a level or two of monk.
A level of paladin or ranger would give you spellpoints and weapons so you can help in melee. With the low dex of a typical cleric, wisdom AC probably won't bring them much above what they'd get from fullplate+shield anyhow.

[Talcyndl]

Yes, you are.

I made a comment about being incap, and you made a reply about being dead. Your reply was unrelated my comment, indicating that you're not following the conversation.

Interesting.

Looking back on the thread, I first commented that the capstone would be useful in raids "where deaths are fairly common."

You then replied:


It does not seem that way; especially not in raids.

The minor auto-heal provided by Divine Intervention will only be really useful if there's nobody else around to heal the person (like if you're solo and cast it on yourself). In a raid (or just a party), when someone goes incap, multiple other players will rush to heal him.

You seem to be missing the point. Divine Intervention doesn't just help incapped players. It stops people from dying. So the person who would be dead is now just incapped. And with the auto-heal part they don't stay incapped for long. Instead they are auto-healed some amount (what makes you say it will be "minor"?).

So without DI, folks will die who otherwise would be saved. Those folks will require a raise from someone - often the cleric. With the ability (both portions of it), they (1) don't die and then (2) get healed back to some amount of health. And based on the Korthos spell, that should be a significant amount of health. And it's all done automatically, while the cleric continues to heal everyone else.

As I said, seems pretty useful.

[BlackSteel]

the tactical use of the cleric capstone depends largely on just how much the target is healed for after stabilizing. Anything short of 1/2 HP and the capstone is simply a mockery to 20th level clerics. 1/2 - Full HP and the capstone is worth taking, and casting on key party members; but still not a must have enhancement.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

A level of paladin or ranger would give you spellpoints and weapons so you can help in melee. With the low dex of a typical cleric, wisdom AC probably won't bring them much above what they'd get from fullplate+shield anyhow.

I was referring mainly to potential new clerics, as I realize that most existing clerics already have a plan for their build. But the point is the same--either way, the capstone provides very little reason to go pure.

[Angelus_dead]

Looking back on the thread, I first commented that the capstone would be useful in raids "where deaths are fairly common."
Wrong. You are unaware of what was said in this thread, by both you and others. Your comment was not simply that it would be useful in raids.

In reality, you said that compared to the Delay Death spell in D&D, the DDO capstone would be more useful. Here, just read your own words:

Unless I'm missing something, the capstone (proposed) has an additional part, above what Delay Death gives. Namely, that it heals the target as well. Seems like this will be a VERY useful ability in certain quests.
That is obviously wrong: the DDO cleric capstone is weaker than the D&D Delay Death spell, because unlike the spell, the buff can be removed simply by a monster inflicting hitpoint damage.

It is inaccurate to characterize the capstone has having something "additional". It has an "additional weakness".


Divine Intervention doesn't just help incapped players. It stops people from dying. So the person who would be dead is now just incapped. And with the auto-heal part they don't stay incapped for long. Instead they are auto-healed some amount (what makes you say it will be "minor"?).
That's wrong in important ways, but I don't need to reply to you.