Would this get me smitten?

[bigj1608]

If I, as a pure Sorcerer, pulled a +3 str tome out of the reaver chest, would all of you tanks on argo hate me forever if I looted and ate it?

Just wondering :)

I have an 8 base Str and really don't like being helpless. The reason I an asking this and not settling for a +2 tome is because I also don't like being encumbered or overweight, and every point in Str helps your weight load.

*EDIT* I DO wear a +6 Strength item. (too many posts saying "get one")

[toughguyjoe]

If I, as a pure Sorcerer, pulled a +3 str tome out of the reaver chest, would all of you tanks on argo hate me forever if I looted and ate it?

Just wondering :)

I have an 8 base Str and really don't like being helpless. The reason I an asking this and not settling for a +2 tome is because I also don't like being encumbered or overweight, and every point in Str helps your weight load.

no not everyone on argo.

myself? yeah i'd think it was kind of a waste.

1 more str? you can't abide the +2 tome because the +3 is available out there somewhere?

if you can work in a +6 str item and eat a +2 tome you won't be made helpless by much in this game.

Leser restore pots are cheap. carry a few. when you get hit with RoE, drink one.


however there are still a ton of people in this game who would say "its your tome, do with it what you want"

and i'll appologize now for not having that mentality. just be happy if you ever win a roll on a +3 tome i put up because it would help your class alot more than mine.

[WeaselKing]

but not because of the tome, I just don't like sorcs. XD XD

[Arnya]

My sorc ate a +3 con in front of everyone, a few ppl complained

My sorc ate a +3 str and nobody said boo....

Now I can dump the +5 str gloves and have the seven-fingered gloves on all the time :)

BTW: I had 9 str from creation

EDIT: It's not about being helpless, its about being encumbered with all teh uber lewtz

[jerryxenon]

You paid for, you pulled it, It's yours why would anyone begrudge you?

[cdbd3rd]

You paid for, you pulled it, It's yours why would anyone begrudge you?


*chuckles*


You don't hang out around here much, do ya? :p


Begrudging for the sake of begrudging is pretty standard fare a lot of times.

...but then, there's a bunchload of Raid Loot shoulda/woulda/coulda threads. You already knew this. :rolleyes:


:D (Pokin fun atcha.) :D

[Jesen]

It would be better if you destroyed it and took screen shots and posted them for everyone to see. Then repeated the post on all the "tank" forums.


Or is that just cruel?

[lord_of_rage]

If I, as a pure Sorcerer, pulled a +3 str tome out of the reaver chest, would all of you tanks on argo hate me forever if I looted and ate it?

Just wondering :)

I have an 8 base Str and really don't like being helpless. The reason I an asking this and not settling for a +2 tome is because I also don't like being encumbered or overweight, and every point in Str helps your weight load.

Its your loot. if you want it take it. Period.

[Aesop]

nom nom nom

[toughguyjoe]

Its your loot. if you want it take it. Period.

so he solo'd that raid?

The eleven other people didn't participate enough?

btw, i might as well be done with this conversation, since i can't make lots of people see the light.

I say again, just hope you run with me, because i think of the SERVER over the individual.

[Amabel]

I give Argo a C- for drama.

You guys haven't even made it to the achievements forum yet. Our thread was transferred for achievements in drama.

[Spisey]

nom Nom Nom


Qft ;)

[Arnya]

so he solo'd that raid?

The eleven other people didn't participate enough?



Yeah they did, that's why they got loot under their own names in the end chest.

Is that not enough?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

If you were the only sorc in there and my barbarian pulled a +3 CHA tome, you'd get it OP.

If you ate a +3 STR tome on an 8 STR Sorc, yeah...Id pretty much put you on my list.

Like Cleavon said, server first.

Ive an 8 STR sorc, Ive yet to become encumbered, hell I dont think Ive used my last backpack slot, so poor excuse for greed there.

Thats as far as Im gonna go with this discussion.

[bandyman1]

If I, as a pure Sorcerer, pulled a +3 str tome out of the reaver chest, would all of you tanks on argo hate me forever if I looted and ate it?

Just wondering :)

I have an 8 base Str and really don't like being helpless. The reason I an asking this and not settling for a +2 tome is because I also don't like being encumbered or overweight, and every point in Str helps your weight load.

In all honesty....


From most raiding guilds on Argo; Yeah. You'd be blacklisted. Period.


Some peeps love to throw in " It's your loot! ", " You pulled it! ", " MARXISM!!! ", ect, ect here on the forums, whenever this subject is brought up, but....

You'd still end up on the guild/channel/friend banned list. That's the long and the short of it.

[Eternity25]

If you were the only sorc in there and my barbarian pulled a +3 CHA tome, you'd get it OP.
.

I wish there were more players like you who would give +3 tomes of a certain type to the class they'd most benefit. I'd give +3 tomes away especially if they'd benefit someone else more. However, I wasn't lucky in being in raids in which +3 Cha tomes were pulled and then given away. All the +3 Cha tomes I've seen drop were either put up for auction while in the chest, or the person demanded 2 +2 tomes in exchange, or the barbarian ate the +3 Cha tome. Maybe its just my experience in PUGs with +3 tomes but I never got to roll on any +3 Cha tome pulled by a meelee or a non-Charisma based class.

[Uska]

No str can help all even if its just to help you with encumburance.

[Uska]

so he solo'd that raid?

The eleven other people didn't participate enough?

btw, i might as well be done with this conversation, since i can't make lots of people see the light.

I say again, just hope you run with me, because i think of the SERVER over the individual.

not having your sorcerer encumbered or helpless helps the group to I mean really:rolleyes:

[bandyman1]

Gotta love how peeps who don't even raid on this server tell the OP what's going to happen :rolleyes:.

[bandyman1]

To put it another way;

On the server most peeps who're posting you'll have no problems actually play on; You may be fine.

I can only speak for Argo, because I play here, and raid daily.

And on Argo; You're going to have problems.

[bigj1608]

I'm fairly certain that I would give the tome up, especially on a good run.

Thanks for the responses.

[lord_of_rage]

so he solo'd that raid?

The eleven other people didn't participate enough?

btw, i might as well be done with this conversation, since i can't make lots of people see the light.

I say again, just hope you run with me, because i think of the SERVER over the individual.

It has nothing to do with if he soloed it or not. You get the loot in your chests. He gets the loot in his. The other 10 people get the loot in their chests. You have completed the raid and have all met the goal of completing the quest. Show me where it says you are required to put all +3 tomes up for roll unless you are X class. You cant because the rule doesnt exist. I will alway put items up for roll if, A. I dont want or need it B. a guildee or friend doenst want or need it. Noone is required to put something up for roll because it doesnt fit their build. Taking the high road of the "server" is a huge moral responsibility. Are you sure you put every +2 or 3 tome you pull up for roll???? I honestly doubt it. I dont tell you what to do with your loot so dont tell anyone else what to do with theirs.

[lord_of_rage]

To put it another way;

On the server most peeps who're posting you'll have no problems actually play on; You may be fine.

I can only speak for Argo, because I play here, and raid daily.

And on Argo; You're going to have problems.

Please show me where it says you have to give up loot you pull if you want to keep it? Last time I checked the ddo eula it says nothing of the kind. I raid on Khyber I play on khyber though I have a lowbie on argo. I give up gear I know wont benifit me if I dont really need it. However nothing says I have to. What annoys me is this feeling that You, because You feel entitled to it, feel someone else should give up the loot they have earned by completing the raid, should give it up. That is the truly selfish issue. Server first is a cop out. It boils down to your opinions on someone elses lucky pull.

[Mhykke]

If I, as a pure Sorcerer, pulled a +3 str tome out of the reaver chest, would all of you tanks on argo hate me forever if I looted and ate it?

Just wondering :)

I have an 8 base Str and really don't like being helpless. The reason I an asking this and not settling for a +2 tome is because I also don't like being encumbered or overweight, and every point in Str helps your weight load.


Honestly, your argument of "I hate being encumbered/helpless" doesn't fly with me all that well. If you hated it so much, you'd have done something about it, like fit in a str item somewhere. Casters aren't too difficult to fit in items in slots.

If you had done anything up until that point to show that you cared about being encumbered/helpless, that'd be one thing. But you didn't. The fact is you don't care much about being encumbered, it's just an excuse. You just want to eat the tome.

Yes, you can do what you like. Doesn't mean others would like it. I know if it was me, I'd give it up. Again, that's just me.

[bigj1608]

I am wearing a strength item, which puts me at a 14. I have decided that I will be satisfied with a 16 from a +2 tome.

Thanks

[bandyman1]

Please show me where it says you have to give up loot you pull if you want to keep it? Last time I checked the ddo eula it says nothing of the kind. I raid on Khyber I play on khyber though I have a lowbie on argo. I give up gear I know wont benifit me if I dont really need it. However nothing says I have to. What annoys me is this feeling that You, because You feel entitled to it, feel someone else should give up the loot they have earned by completing the raid, should give it up. That is the truly selfish issue. Server first is a cop out. It boils down to your opinions on someone elses lucky pull.

No one is saying you have to.

No one can force you to.

But I got news for your lowbie on Argo;

If you pull a +3 Str tome on a raid, and loot it on your 8 Str sorc; You'll most likely find that your sorc will never be accepted for another raid by
A) those players
B) their guildies
C) their channel mates
D) their friends

Blacklisting is common on Argo amongst raiding guilds. Period.

It doesn't matter if you like it.
It doesn't matter if you agree with it.
It doesn't matter if you feel that it's not fair.
It doesn't matter if you think it's against the EULA, because Turbine cannot control who people accept, or do not accept to their groups within this game.

It is what it is. And anyone doing as the OP described will have problems on this server. If you can't accept that; Then perhaps you should stay on Kyber.

[Uska]

In all honesty....


From most raiding guilds on Argo; Yeah. You'd be blacklisted. Period.


Some peeps love to throw in " It's your loot! ", " You pulled it! ", " MARXISM!!! ", ect, ect here on the forums, whenever this subject is brought up, but....

You'd still end up on the guild/channel/friend banned list. That's the long and the short of it.

Makes me glad I play with more mature people noone I know would hold it against him and noone should

[pscomputers]

Let's face it. If a piece of raid loot is a benefit to you, then you have every right to take it if it's under your name.

Cleric - Tharnes Goggles - No need to cast True Seeing on yourself anymore. Saves you SP = Benefit.

THF Barbarian - Treason - Charge High Energy Cell = Benefit.

WF any class - Full Plate of the Defender - Sell to Tavern Keep - More Plat = Benefit.

I don't see how any raid loot cannot be a benefit to anyone, even in the smallest way. If you don't have one, you need one. Need before greed.

Isn't that what we all agree to?

Why don't you all think this way - who would benefit from the +3 str/con/dex/wis/int/cha tome more. My Sorc or that Tank?

[lord_of_rage]

Honestly, your argument of "I hate being encumbered/helpless" doesn't fly with me all that well. If you hated it so much, you'd have done something about it, like fit in a str item somewhere. Casters aren't too difficult to fit in items in slots.

If you had done anything up until that point to show that you cared about being encumbered/helpless, that'd be one thing. But you didn't. The fact is you don't care much about being encumbered, it's just an excuse. You just want to eat the tome.

Yes, you can do what you like. Doesn't mean others would like it. I know if it was me, I'd give it up. Again, that's just me.

You can say you would give up the tome all you want.. The test is if it happened to you would you really do it. i know most wouldnt. The proof is in the action.

[Arnya]

No one is saying you have to.

No one can force you to.

But I got news for your lowbie on Argo;

If you pull a +3 Str tome on a raid, and loot it on your 8 Str sorc; You'll most likely find that your sorc will never be accepted for another raid by
A) those players
B) their guildies
C) their channel mates
D) their friends

Blacklisting is common on Argo amongst raiding guilds. Period.

It doesn't matter if you like it.
It doesn't matter if you agree with it.
It doesn't matter if you feel that it's not fair.
It doesn't matter if you think it's against the EULA, because Turbine cannot control who people chose, or chose not to group with in this game.

It is what it is. And anyone doing as the OP described will have problems on this server. If you can't accept that; Then perhaps you should stay on Kyber.

So glad I chose Adar lol .....sounds like a few big kids hogging the slides to me.

The only thing you'd get blacklisted for is spouting that nonsense in a raid.

[bandyman1]

So glad I chose Adar lol .....sounds like a few big kids hogging the slides to me.

The only thing you'd get blacklisted for is spouting that nonsense in a raid.

Guess I'm glad I chose Mabar, and we got rolled into Argo then.

Greedy assbags get weeded out of our raiding population fairly quickly here.

[bandyman1]

You can say you would give up the tome all you want.. The test is if it happened to you would you really do it. i know most wouldnt. The proof is in the action.

Actually, I've seen Mhykke give up several +3 tomes.

[Mhykke]

You can say you would give up the tome all you want.. The test is if it happened to you would you really do it. i know most wouldnt. The proof is in the action.

Actually, I've given up things like tomes, and even rarer things, plenty, thank you.

Don't believe me? Here's someone thanking me for the chattering ring that I gave up, after 41 runs, although I could still use it, 2 weeks ago. I decided on a different item distribution b/c I didn't get the ring on my 40th titan. On my 41st, it dropped for me. Now, I could've still used it, and for a while, but went through with my previous decision to not go for it, even though who knows how many months it'll take me to get Dodge +3 on my DT armor. I could've easily went back to the other gear set up I planned for myself. But instead, I thought to myself that at some point I'll get what I want on my armor, and then the ring would just sit in the bank. Better to give it up to someone who actually plans on using it and isn't looking for something else, like I had decided on after my 40th run, just 3 days prior (again, even though I probably would've used it for a few months, if not longer.)

So yes, the proof is in the pudding. Here's your pudding (scroll down):

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=169869




WF any class - Full Plate of the Defender - Sell to Tavern Keep - More Plat = Benefit.

I don't see how any raid loot cannot be a benefit to anyone, even in the smallest way. If you don't have one, you need one. Need before greed.



It still boggles the mind that one, in the same breath, can say need before greed, and then justify taking armor on a warforged to sell to a bartender. I'm sorry, but that's greed, pure and simple. It's the very definition of it. The greedy thing to do would be to think like your post: "I can use everything, so I'm going to take everything." The generous thing to do, the non greedy thing to do, would be to think "well, all I can get for this armor is a couple thousand platinum, whereas someone else would actually put this to use. I think I will give it up."

[Arnya]

Greedy assbags get weeded out of our raiding population fairly quickly here.

That's exactly it - expecting to get a crack at someone else's loot IS greed pure and simple.

If we decide to offer our loot, we do. Easy.

[alchilito]

Actually, I've seen Mhykke give up several +3 tomes.

screenshot or it didn't happen ! ~

[bandyman1]

That's exactly it - expecting to get a crack at someone else's loot IS greed pure and simple.

If we decide to offer our loot, we do. Easy.



Naw. Looting something you'll see very minimal benifit ( 17 Str vs 16 on a pure Sorc???? Common....:rolleyes: ) from, over someone who'll see far and away better use and benefit from from the item is the very epitome of greed in this game.

You're smarter than this Arnya. I know you like to argue, but come on; Even you don't have a leg to stand on here.

KDS looted by a WFed for the plat over a ranger or rogue in the party anyone?

[sephiroth1084]

I'm not on your server, but if I pull a +3 Int tome on my tank, even though the extra 2 skill points for levels 17-20 could be useful, its going up for roll to the wizards, and maybe rogues, bards and/or rangers.

If I pulled a +3 Str tome on my 8 Str wizard, it'd go up for roll. Until I get all the raid loot I'm after, I'm going to have a lot of open slots, which makes wearing a Str-boosting item pretty easy. I also carry around a Lesser Restore clicky and some potions of same.

Think about how you would feel if the tank in the group pulled the Ring of Thelis and kept it because he decided he wanted SR 22.

[Mhykke]

screenshot or it didn't happen ! ~


:p

[Uska]

I'm not on your server, but if I pull a +3 Int tome on my tank, even though the extra 2 skill points for levels 17-20 could be useful, its going up for roll to the wizards, and maybe rogues, bards and/or rangers.

If I pulled a +3 Str tome on my 8 Str wizard, it'd go up for roll. Until I get all the raid loot I'm after, I'm going to have a lot of open slots, which makes wearing a Str-boosting item pretty easy. I also carry around a Lesser Restore clicky and some potions of same.

Think about how you would feel if the tank in the group pulled the Ring of Thelis and kept it because he decided he wanted SR 22.

I'd say good run and if I had time run something else with him

[Kreaper]

I think some of you guys place a little too much importance on yourselves and your guilds.

[bandyman1]

I'd say good run and if I had time run something else with him

Good for you Uska.

Glad that works for you on your server.

Too bad the OP was asking about Argo.....:rolleyes:

[bandyman1]

I think some of you guys place a little too much importance on yourselves and your guilds.

Well...you're more than welcome to PuG it out if you feel that you should take any loot that falls with your name beside it. Because, that's what you're going to be doing once your name's tossed around in a few channels here.



Of course....funny thing....PuGs don't generally have a 98+% success rate at raiding on Argo either.....;)

[pscomputers]

It still boggles the mind that one, in the same breath, can say need before greed, and then justify taking armor on a warforged to sell to a bartender. I'm sorry, but that's greed, pure and simple. The generous thing to do would be to think "well, all I can get for this armor is a couple thousand platinum, whereas someone else would actually put this to use. I think I will give it up."

/agree

People take raid loot (like a +3 cha tome on a tank for +1 umd) because they 'benefit' from it. The problem with that is, anyone can provide you with a reason that an item benefits them, like the examples I provided.

Many times I have seen Clerics or Arcanes roll on the Sandstorm Glasses (Blindness Ward/True Seeing). Yes they benefit, but only very mildly. Blindness Ward goggles aren't exactly rare and Clerics and Arcanes can cast True Seeing. But then you get the ones that argue they don't memorise it. This is true. Neither of my Sorcs memorise True Seeing, but then, neither of my Sorcs swing at much. If they did need TS, then I'd burn a scroll from the stack I carry with me.

But scrolls cost money so TS on goggles would save me Plat is what you'd hear. Let's get serious. Plenty of Sorcs are buffing with GH scrolls these days, which cost a lot more than TS and used far more often.

The issue is complex and attitudes too varying for everyone to agree on any model for the distribution of raid loot. Most people hum the Mantra - You're loot, you do what you want with it, as if they wouldn't have any hard feelings what ever you chose to do with it. I bet they'd freak out if you decided to leave it in the chest, and rightfully so. Which is why I don't subscribe to that mantra.

I prefer to judge my benefit vs your benefit. If I think you'll benefit from the item more than I will, then I'll give it to you. Very rarely will I ever put an item up for open roll. Too many times I have seen people roll for loot that would only have a minimal benefit from the item. Like a TWF rolling on a raid shield or a WF Barbarian rolling on a +3 Cha tome.

[Mhykke]

I prefer to judge my benefit vs your benefit. If I think you'll benefit from the item more than I will, then I'll give it to you. Very rarely will I ever put an item up for open roll. Too many times I have seen people roll for loot that would only have a minimal benefit from the item. Like a TWF rolling on a raid shield or a WF Barbarian rolling on a +3 Cha tome.

You don't have to let anyone take your item. If you pulled a +3 cha tome, and didn't need it, and decided to put it up for roll, only to have 4 sorcs, a bard, and a WF barb roll.....you don't have to recognize that WF barb's roll. He doesn't need it at all, let alone could get use out of it like the others rolling. You know it, he knows it, and the group knows it.

[wankydasmoto]

Well...you're more than welcome to PuG it out if you feel that you should take any loot that falls with your name beside it. Because, that's what you're going to be doing once your name's tossed around in a few channels here.



Of course....funny thing....PuGs don't generally have a 98+% success rate at raiding on Argo either.....



Gorsh, wish I could sit at the cool kids table so I could talk smack about people and have everyone listen to me because I'm at the cool kids table and then I'd move from the cool kids table to the cool kids bench and look upon my lessers with smug haughtiness and think about how much they wish they were me sitting at the cool kids bench and then I'd move on to the cool kids bathroom where I'll talk more smack and probably write something on the wall how so and so is easy.....

Or I could play a video game and post on forums about what an awesome raider I am and how I can get anyone who "matters" on the server to bend to my will and then congratulate myself over and over for it.

You know, whatever.

[bandyman1]

Gorsh, wish I could sit at the cool kids table so I could talk smack about people and have everyone listen to me because I'm at the cool kids table and then I'd move from the cool kids table to the cool kids bench and look upon my lessers with smug haughtiness and think about how much they wish they were me sitting at the cool kids bench and then I'd move on to the cool kids bathroom where I'll talk more smack and probably write something on the wall how so and so is easy.....

Or I could play a video game and post on forums about what an awesome raider I am and how I can get anyone who "matters" on the server to bend to my will and then congratulate myself over and over for it.

You know, whatever.

LMAO.

No one said anything even remotely close.

The OP asked a question.

The OP got an anwser.

Like I pointed out to someone else in this thread;

It doesn't matter if you agree with that anwser.
It doesn't matter if you like that anwser.


It's the state of things in the raid scene on Argonnessen.

Don't know how it could be spelled out any clearer.

/shrugs.

[Arnya]

Naw. Looting something you'll see very minimal benifit ( 17 Str vs 16 on a pure Sorc???? Common....:rolleyes: ) from, over someone who'll see far and away better use and benefit from from the item is the very epitome of greed in this game.

You're smarter than this Arnya. I know you like to argue, but come on; Even you don't have a leg to stand on here.

KDS looted by a WFed for the plat over a ranger or rogue in the party anyone?

I like to explain my point of view.

I usually keep my posts short and to the point, but I will take some time to elaborate - especailly to you, Bandyman, because usually we argue about the same things, from different points of view.

Here are two examples of my idea of the way loot should work, and what I think is fair:

Example 1: Torche my sorc pulls a +3 strength tome. I have +5 strength gloves that I swap out for seven-fingered gloves. Now I only swap these gloves for UMD.

I swap em in the middle of battle to heal the cleric or whatever. When I forget to swap back I really notice that my jump height is a lot lower (yes I can cast jump, but being debuffed in coalescence sucks). I also get medium encumberance with the first or second full plate I loot.

Pulling a +3 strength tome give mes 12 strength and the need to only swap the mummified bat (if I need it in a particular instance) for the head of good fortune to get 38umd - heal scrolls on a 2. I use the tome because it is of benefit to me.

This is fair

Example 2: Slimm my twf ranger is in hound with a pug. A +3 con tome drops. Slimm has no con tomes at all (He took a +2str for 1750, went into reaver and pulled a +3str <sigh>).

I say in party chat that I would love to trade thrane's goggles that dropped for me for the con tome.

After 30 seconds or so the con tome swaps owners and is looted. I'm gutted but I believe it went to a guildie, which I would have done too so...

This is also fair

Example 3: +3 int tome drops for a pure fighter in a typical party in a typical Reaver. Wizzies and Rogues asking if they can roll for it.

Fighter loots and then states on voice chat 'I need it for my will save'. This was really funny, because it was way back when we still had XP penalty and Insightful Reflexes was just a twinkle in Eladrin's eye...

If he had have said it was for skill points then I would probably had a more lukewarm reaction.

This not fair.

I love making someone's day by handing over something that makes that player really happy, maybe the lynch-pin in a tricky build or just something to overcome the 'gimpiness' of a character.

And I really hate it when people expect things to always come to them by virtue of being able to shun players by blacklisting, avoidance etc.

So, in conclusion I think I have to move a character over to Argo and run with some of you guys. As you all know the written word on these forums does little to distinguish the real essence of this game - the players.

If it wasn't for all the awesome peeps on Adar-Sarlona I have met and still know after all this time I'd probably already be on half of your blacklists and still making it into your raids somehow...

[wankydasmoto]

It's the state of things in the raid scene on Argonnessen.



On behalf of every single person who is currently raiding on argo I thank you for your nominating yourself to represent me and my views. What a valuable service you are providing to the population of argo!

But wait.

If you're only playing with the cool kids of argo, then how am I to ensure I am being well represented? In fact, I don't even know who you are! OMG!!

So wait, let me work this out...

You only play with the other cool kids right? And the cool kids don't pug. So if I have no chance of playing with the cool kids anyway does their opinion matter?

See, when Cleavon posts about stuff like this I believe him, and that's because he's all over the place and I've had the pleasure of grouping with him. He is not sequestered in an introverted group of individuals who see themselves as too good to play with just anyone. See, because Cleavon pugs people know him, and he gains credibility from this.

Example of random average argonot:

"Oh! That's Cleavon posting! I know him, he's a cool guy and got me through the Titan, I'll give a listen to what he has to say :)"

or

"Who's that guy? I've never heard of him. He certainly posts a lot though and thinks a lot of himself. Meh."

PS, apologies for using you as an example Cleavon, but I couldn't think of a more epic and well regarded pugger, anything said here is only done so with admiration.

[bandyman1]

On behalf of every single person who is currently raiding on argo I thank you for your nominating yourself to represent me and my views. What a valuable service you are providing to the population of argo!

But wait.

If you're only playing with the cool kids of argo, then how am I to ensure I am being well represented? In fact, I don't even know who you are! OMG!!

So wait, let me work this out...

You only play with the other cool kids right? And the cool kids don't pug. So if I have no chance of playing with the cool kids anyway does their opinion matter?

See, when Cleavon posts about stuff like this I believe him, and that's because he's all over the place and I've had the pleasure of grouping with him. He is not sequestered in an introverted group of individuals who see themselves as too good to play with just anyone. See, because Cleavon pugs people know him, and he gains credibility from this.

Example of random average argonot:

"Oh! That's Cleavon posting! I know him, he's a cool guy and got me through the Titan, I'll give a listen to what he has to say :)"

or

"Who's that guy? I've never heard of him. He certainly posts a lot though and thinks a lot of himself. Meh."

PS, apologies for using you as an example Cleavon, but I couldn't think of a more epic and well regarded pugger, anything said here is only done so with admiration.

I don't PuG out spots in raids????


Since when?

You know Cleavon because he has a character with the same name as his forum handle.

You know the names of all of my 20 toons, and where I spend my time in game, in order to know that we've never raided together?

Considering their not listed ( they were before the sig limits ); ****; You must be psychic or something :rolleyes:

[bandyman1]

I like to explain my point of view.

I usually keep my posts short and to the point, but I will take some time to elaborate - especailly to you, Bandyman, because usually we argue about the same things, from different points of view.

Here are two examples of my idea of the way loot should work, and what I think is fair:

Example 1: Torche my sorc pulls a +3 strength tome. I have +5 strength gloves that I swap out for seven-fingered gloves. Now I only swap these gloves for UMD.

I swap em in the middle of battle to heal the cleric or whatever. When I forget to swap back I really notice that my jump height is a lot lower (yes I can cast jump, but being debuffed in coalescence sucks). I also get medium encumberance with the first or second full plate I loot.

Pulling a +3 strength tome give mes 12 strength and the need to only swap the mummified bat (if I need it in a particular instance) for the head of good fortune to get 38umd - heal scrolls on a 2. I use the tome because it is of benefit to me.

This is fair

Example 2: Slimm my twf ranger is in hound with a pug. A +3 con tome drops. Slimm has no con tomes at all (He took a +2str for 1750, went into reaver and pulled a +3str <sigh>).

I say in party chat that I would love to trade thrane's goggles that dropped for me for the con tome.

After 30 seconds or so the con tome swaps owners and is looted. I'm gutted but I believe it went to a guildie, which I would have done too so...

This is also fair

Example 3: +3 int tome drops for a pure fighter in a typical party in a typical Reaver. Wizzies and Rogues asking if they can roll for it.

Fighter loots and then states on voice chat 'I need it for my will save'. This was really funny, because it was way back when we still had XP penalty and Insightful Reflexes was just a twinkle in Eladrin's eye...

If he had have said it was for skill points then I would probably had a more lukewarm reaction.

This not fair.

I love making someone's day by handing over something that makes that player really happy, maybe the lynch-pin in a tricky build or just something to overcome the 'gimpiness' of a character.

And I really hate it when people expect things to always come to them by virtue of being able to shun players by blacklisting, avoidance etc.

So, in conclusion I think I have to move a character over to Argo and run with some of you guys. As you all know the written word on these forums does little to distinguish the real essence of this game - the players.

If it wasn't for all the awesome peeps on Adar-Sarlona I have met and still know after all this time I'd probably already be on half of your blacklists and still making it into your raids somehow...


You're more than welcome to come over and raid with us ( any of my guilds or affiliates. I like meeting other skilled players ) anytime Arnya :).


But I wouldn't recommend looting a +3 Str tome on an 8 Str sorc if you desire an active raiding life here ;).

[Uska]

Good for you Uska.

Glad that works for you on your server.

Too bad the OP was asking about Argo.....:rolleyes:

Well maybe he should find mature people to run with there:rolleyes:

[HeavenlyCloud]

Gave my fair share of tomes up for roll, even madstone boots on my WF Warchanter. Why? I've always been a need over greed type of guy. It benefits me because a party member can use it better, that simple.

Now what happened on the last +3 Wisdom tome i pulled on my ranger? pffft he could use the 20 wisdom but hey clerics could use the +1/+2 DC on spells and more sp, so i put it up for roll, then a fighter rolls for the wisdom tome, i tell em "Sorry man but only clerics can roll on this tome, if you want one so bad do the same as me, pray for a good 20th/40th end reward".

About blacklisting in Argo i don't know, we share names and give it a second thought when they apply on the lfm.

Oh and btw just a funny thread i think people should read.

Click me (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170933)

[bandyman1]

Well maybe he should find mature people to run with there:rolleyes:

Guess so.

Too bad those that are doing most of the raiding on Argo are immature by your standards.....I guess :rolleyes:.

[Uska]

Guess so.

Too bad those that are doing most of the raiding on Argo are immature by your standards.....I guess :rolleyes:.

They would be by any adults standards if they wont group with someone who wont give their loot to who they think needs it.

[bandyman1]

Gave my fair share of tomes up for roll, even madstone boots on my WF Warchanter. Why? I've always been a need over greed type of guy. It benefits me because a party member can use it better, that simple.

Now what happened on the last +3 Wisdom tome i pulled on my ranger? pffft he could use the 20 wisdom but hey clerics could use the +1/+2 DC on spells and more sp, so i put it up for roll, then a fighter rolls for the wisdom tome, i tell em "Sorry man but only clerics can roll on this tome, if you want one so bad do the same as me, pray for a good 20th/40th end reward".

About blacklisting in Argo i don't know, we share names and give it a second thought when they apply on the lfm.

Oh and btw just a funny thread i think people should read.

Click me (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170933)


ROTFLMFAO!!!! That's the funniest **** ever!


It's also a very good example of the type of **** that happens in a raid when someone is pulling raid loot regardless of weather or not it's needed :D.

[bandyman1]

They would be by any adults standards if they wont group with someone who wont give their loot to who they think needs it.

Nope.

Considering, just like the other servers, Argo is made up of adults for the most part.



And those aren't the standards of the majority.

[Uska]

Nope.

Considering, just like the other servers, Argo is made up of adults for the most part.



And those aren't the standards of the majority.

Being a adult doesnt make you mature so I guess I shouldnt have used that word. Thats all I am going to say on this to you as we are getting to close to a flame war for comfort, you seldom say anything I agree with and I am just glad with this kind of attitude I rarely play on agro.



and I am so glad you checked with all of agro to find out what they wanted:rolleyes:

[bandyman1]

Being a adult doesnt make you mature so I guess I shouldnt have used that word. Thats all I am going to say on this to you as we are getting to close to a flame war for comfort, you seldom say anything I agree with and I am just glad with this kind of attitude I rarely play on agro.

And that makes me glad.

I agree not worth the flame war; Cause you'd hate to know my opinion of you Uska :D.

[Uska]

And that makes me glad.

I agree not worth the flame war; Cause you'd hate to know my opinion of you Uska :D.

No it wouldnt matter as your thoughts dont to me, most kids thoughts dont and anyone who isnt a baby boomer is a kid

[bandyman1]

Told ya I'd get him to post again :D.

You owe me 100k plat Drak!!!!

[Uska]

Told ya I'd get him to post again :D.

You owe me 100k plat Drak!!!!



blah blah I cant let you have the last word can I?:D

[seldarin]

Let's face it. If a piece of raid loot is a benefit to you, then you have every right to take it if it's under your name.

Cleric - Tharnes Goggles - No need to cast True Seeing on yourself anymore. Saves you SP = Benefit.

THF Barbarian - Treason - Charge High Energy Cell = Benefit.

WF any class - Full Plate of the Defender - Sell to Tavern Keep - More Plat = Benefit.

I don't see how any raid loot cannot be a benefit to anyone, even in the smallest way. If you don't have one, you need one. Need before greed.

Isn't that what we all agree to?

Why don't you all think this way - who would benefit from the +3 str/con/dex/wis/int/cha tome more. My Sorc or that Tank?

LMAO, you forgot to turn the sarcasm meter on, im lucky like that, i can spot it a good 10 miles away lol.

[bandyman1]

No it wouldnt matter as your thoughts dont to me, most kids thoughts dont and anyone who isnt a baby boomer is a kid

deleted

[seldarin]

It has nothing to do with if he soloed it or not. You get the loot in your chests. He gets the loot in his. The other 10 people get the loot in their chests. You have completed the raid and have all met the goal of completing the quest. Show me where it says you are required to put all +3 tomes up for roll unless you are X class. You cant because the rule doesnt exist. I will alway put items up for roll if, A. I dont want or need it B. a guildee or friend doenst want or need it. Noone is required to put something up for roll because it doesnt fit their build. Taking the high road of the "server" is a huge moral responsibility. Are you sure you put every +2 or 3 tome you pull up for roll???? I honestly doubt it. I dont tell you what to do with your loot so dont tell anyone else what to do with theirs.

Tell ya what mate, you hold onto that mentality so that when the Sorc who you didnt think of giving that +3 cha tome to doesnt land his FOD etc cos his DC is one or two lower than it could be, because you ate that tome on your fighter, who obviously would look much prettier with 11 Cha instead of 8.

I take the high road on MY server, which is khyber. I pulled a +3 Wis tome on my rogue in reaver run. It wouldve improved my will save by 1, it wouldve improved my spot by 1, but apart from that wouldnt have done diddly for me. Instead of adopting the attitude of well it would be useful to me, i looked at it from the point of view that the one class that would benefit from it MOST was a cleric, so i asked the clerics in the group if they had used a Wis tome, one of them said no, so i gave it to him, no ifs buts or whens, no roll needed, straight across.

In a hound run on my bard, i pulled the thelis ring. Yes Wiz VII wouldve been great for my bard, extra spell pts and all that, however IMO a full time caster, ie cleric, sorc or wizzie would benefit from it more, so i put it up for roll, however i stipulated caster only. Wouldve benefitted others with mana bars, and the SR as well, however i believe that a full time caster gets more benefit from it.

That is called putting server first, OVERALL benefit. The person you help today, could also be the person that helps your group down the road, if not, meh, no biggie, its only a make believe piece of graphic on a computer screen and sure as hell doesnt impact on my life. If someone chooses to loot something that doesnt really benefit them that much, ie a cleric looting the VOD bracers, which obviously the glaciation VIII will help with all those cold cleric spells, i think there are zero of those, then i sincerely hope that someone down the track a group they are in fails as a result of someone not having something that wouldve benefitted them, but they were greedy and looted it.

My point, yes whats in the chest is yours, BUT, perhaps a little bit of commonsense and forward thinking about what could benefit more ppl than just yourself.

[seldarin]

Actually, I've given up things like tomes, and even rarer things, plenty, thank you.

Don't believe me? Here's someone thanking me for the chattering ring that I gave up, after 41 runs, although I could still use it, 2 weeks ago. I decided on a different item distribution b/c I didn't get the ring on my 40th titan. On my 41st, it dropped for me. Now, I could've still used it, and for a while, but went through with my previous decision to not go for it, even though who knows how many months it'll take me to get Dodge +3 on my DT armor. I could've easily went back to the other gear set up I planned for myself. But instead, I thought to myself that at some point I'll get what I want on my armor, and then the ring would just sit in the bank. Better to give it up to someone who actually plans on using it and isn't looking for something else, like I had decided on after my 40th run, just 3 days prior (again, even though I probably would've used it for a few months, if not longer.)

So yes, the proof is in the pudding. Here's your pudding (scroll down):

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=169869




It still boggles the mind that one, in the same breath, can say need before greed, and then justify taking armor on a warforged to sell to a bartender. I'm sorry, but that's greed, pure and simple. It's the very definition of it. The greedy thing to do would be to think like your post: "I can use everything, so I'm going to take everything." The generous thing to do, the non greedy thing to do, would be to think "well, all I can get for this armor is a couple thousand platinum, whereas someone else would actually put this to use. I think I will give it up."



Ummm mate, his post was sarcasm, you may not have recognised that. He wasnt advocated a WF taking defender plate.

[Mhykke]

Ummm mate, his post was sarcasm, you may not have recognised that. He wasnt advocated a WF taking defender plate.

His post was, but I've gotten into that argument before, where someone says "I can sell it, so I can use it." That's why I didn't say the greedy thing to do would be to think like you do, I said think like your post...he was making the argument I've seen, and sadly to say, not just once before. That's what bothers me about simply saying "it's your loot do what you want with it." That's basically the intro to taking it and selling it. If we just leave it at that, well, then taking things you can't use to sell is fine and dandy.

[Aranticus]

Example 3: +3 int tome drops for a pure fighter in a typical party in a typical Reaver. Wizzies and Rogues asking if they can roll for it.

Fighter loots and then states on voice chat 'I need it for my will save'. This was really funny, because it was way back when we still had XP penalty and Insightful Reflexes was just a twinkle in Eladrin's eye...

If he had have said it was for skill points then I would probably had a more lukewarm reaction.

This not fair.

absolutely fair, i'd do just that to **** the greed bags off. at least have some courtesy to wait until the item is offered up for roll

[seldarin]

absolutely fair, i'd do just that to **** the greed bags off. at least have some courtesy to wait until the item is offered up for roll

Nah, you would do it just to be a greedy loot ***** to say you have another +3 tome on a toon :)

Its not fair at all, especially saying it will improve will saves. That says to me, "i have no idea what im talking about, but its a +3 tome and i want it". Pure greed at its best.

[Aranticus]

If someone chooses to loot something that doesnt really benefit them that much, ie a cleric looting the VOD bracers, which obviously the glaciation VIII will help with all those cold cleric spells, i think there are zero of those, then i sincerely hope that someone down the track a group they are in fails as a result of someone not having something that wouldve benefitted them, but they were greedy and looted it.

and to activate the glaciation 8, the caster would need 2 items AND it benefits 1 spell. the glaciation 8 is just a tibit, the deal with the bracers is the archmagi which gives +200 sp

[seldarin]

His post was, but I've gotten into that argument before, where someone says "I can sell it, so I can use it." That's why I didn't say the greedy thing to do would be to think like you do, I said think like your post...he was making the argument I've seen, and sadly to say, not just once before. That's what bothers me about simply saying "it's your loot do what you want with it." That's basically the intro to taking it and selling it. If we just leave it at that, well, then taking things you can't use to sell is fine and dandy.

What i was meaning by sarcasm is that isnt his line of thinking, the whole post was sarcasm. He wasnt making an argument justified ppl just looting stuff, it was sarcasm, end of story. Read his other post in the same thread about tharnes goggles and you will understand that his post was pure sarcasm, not justification for anyone to loot anything.

[Mhykke]

What i was meaning by sarcasm is that isnt his line of thinking, the whole post was sarcasm. He wasnt making an argument justified ppl just looting stuff, it was sarcasm, end of story. Read his other post in the same thread about tharnes goggles and you will understand that his post was pure sarcasm, not justification for anyone to loot anything.

I know he wasn't. And I was saying I don't understand how people he described (not him) can say that, b/c I've actually had that argument (sadly, more than once) where someone tried to justify taking the armor on a WF to sell, or the torc on a fighter to sell. They (not him) say don't be greedy, as if taking something to sell for some measily plat instead of giving it away isn't the very definition.

[Aranticus]

Nah, you would do it just to be a greedy loot ***** to say you have another +3 tome on a toon :)

Its not fair at all, especially saying it will improve will saves. That says to me, "i have no idea what im talking about, but its a +3 tome and i want it". Pure greed at its best.

i'll totally agree its not fair if the fighter declared before hand that he is taking it for will saves. that to me is a totally BS reason. what i really dislike are people who assumes for you. the fighter might have 10 int and could be wanting to get it to hit 13 int for combat expertise. i'd be ****ed if i have yet loot it and people are already asking for it

[seldarin]

and to activate the glaciation 8, the caster would need 2 items AND it benefits 1 spell. the glaciation 8 is just a tibit, the deal with the bracers is the archmagi which gives +200 sp

Benefits 1 spell? which would that be? I thought glaciation VIII encompassed lvl 8 and lower cold spells, of which i think there may be more than one, then again im not online at the moment to check. Just to follow up there too, are you saying that a cleric will benefit more from archmagi than a sorc will? and dont run me the argument about a sorc will have skiver, not all sorcs do. I could say the same thing and say that a cleric will have skiver.

IMO, and it is only my opinion, an item that can benefit a class with more than one thing, or gives greater benefit to one class more than another, should in the first instance be given an oppurtunity on it.

I have ring of thelis on my cleric, with is Wiz VII, gives 175 sps to my cleric, this is after i made my GS item for Wiz VI. What would glacier bracers give me, an extra 25 sps? what would that do for me, maybe clw?

Gotta put up a better argument than that mate to tell me that a cleric is justified in looting the bracers over offering them to a wiz/sorc. Seriously if a cleric is that gimped for spell pts, then maybe a few less fighter lvls, or a tier II sp item with Wiz VI would suffice.

[seldarin]

i'll totally agree its not fair if the fighter declared before hand that he is taking it for will saves. that to me is a totally BS reason. what i really dislike are people who assumes for you. the fighter might have 10 int and could be wanting to get it to hit 13 int for combat expertise. i'd be ****ed if i have yet loot it and people are already asking for it

If that is the case, needing it for combat expertise, fair enough, AND if you have stated as such. And yes you dont have to tell everyone why you are doing what you are doing, but i still believe in courtesy, something i know is very lacking.

[Aranticus]

Benefits 1 spell? which would that be? I thought glaciation VIII encompassed lvl 8 and lower cold spells, of which i think there may be more than one, then again im not online at the moment to check.

yes all L8 and below spells but for anything L6 and below you can use a superior potency 6 weapon (+50%) which benefits the spells more. L7 spells have greater potency 7 (+40%, not sure if there is sup glaciation 7). this compared to +30% for improved glaciation

Just to follow up there too, are you saying that a cleric will benefit more from archmagi than a sorc will? and dont run me the argument about a sorc will have skiver, not all sorcs do. I could say the same thing and say that a cleric will have skiver.

the impact of 200 sp is more keenly felt on a cleric with 1500 sp than a 2000 sp sorc. not to say that they cant get skiver, but skiver is a whole lot harder to get since the tome pieces require more effort (at least 8 runs + flagging). of coz 1 could purchase the tome pieces and that is no mean feat considering the cost of some of them

IMO, and it is only my opinion, an item that can benefit a class with more than one thing, or gives greater benefit to one class more than another, should in the first instance be given an oppurtunity on it.

I have ring of thelis on my cleric, with is Wiz VII, gives 175 sps to my cleric, this is after i made my GS item for Wiz VI. What would glacier bracers give me, an extra 25 sps? what would that do for me, maybe clw?

Gotta put up a better argument than that mate to tell me that a cleric is justified in looting the bracers over offering them to a wiz/sorc. Seriously if a cleric is that gimped for spell pts, then maybe a few less fighter lvls, or a tier II sp item with Wiz VI would suffice.

to say that glaciation 8 is so important is not a very good arguement as well. i'd say clerics, sorcs and wiz all have equally advantage to use it. kinda grey there, unlike say a wiz looting reaver gloves for heal skill

[seldarin]

to say that glaciation 8 is so important is not a very good arguement as well. i'd say clerics, sorcs and wiz all have equally advantage to use it. kinda grey there, unlike say a wiz looting reaver gloves for heal skill

I didnt say it was so important, i said that OVERALL the item is MORE beneficial to a wiz/sorc than a cleric, end of story. You cant tell me that its more beneficial to a cleric, cos a cleric only benefits from 1 part of it, arcanes benefit from more.

In your responses you mentioned about difficulty of tome pieces, which in all honesty really backs up exactly what i was saying, OVERALL, MORE benifit to Sorc, double spell pts.

To go back to what i did say, thelis ring, Wiz VII = 175 spell pts, archmagi = 200 spell pts, that is on cleric/wiz.

On sorc, ring of thelis, Wiz VII = 350 Spell pts, archmagi = 400 spell pts.

Tell me again HOW a cleric will gain more benefit from it than a Sorc!

Short answer is, unless im mistaken Wiz and Archmagi dont stack and even if they did, Sorc still gains a hell of a lot more benefit from spell pts.

Your argument is 1500 cleric benefits more. If the 1500 spell pt cleric has ring of thelis, which mine does, HOW will the extra 25 spell pts really benefit me? Short answer is, it really wont.

Ergo, my original narrative was that an arcane class WILL benefit from it MORE than a cleric, and therefore in my opinion a cleric that loots it without even so much as a by your leave asking the arcanes, is putting Greed ahead of Need, because they really dont NEED it. By the same token the arcanes dont necessarily NEED it, BUT its more beneficial to them than a cleric, end of story.

Now please show me where my narrative is erroneous.

[Aranticus]

I didnt say it was so important, i said that OVERALL the item is MORE beneficial to a wiz/sorc than a cleric, end of story. You cant tell me that its more beneficial to a cleric, cos a cleric only benefits from 1 part of it, arcanes benefit from more.

In your responses you mentioned about difficulty of tome pieces, which in all honesty really backs up exactly what i was saying, OVERALL, MORE benifit to Sorc, double spell pts.

To go back to what i did say, thelis ring, Wiz VII = 175 spell pts, archmagi = 200 spell pts, that is on cleric/wiz.

On sorc, ring of thelis, Wiz VII = 350 Spell pts, archmagi = 400 spell pts.

Tell me again HOW a cleric will gain more benefit from it than a Sorc!

Short answer is, unless im mistaken Wiz and Archmagi dont stack and even if they did, Sorc still gains a hell of a lot more benefit from spell pts.

Your argument is 1500 cleric benefits more. If the 1500 spell pt cleric has ring of thelis, which mine does, HOW will the extra 25 spell pts really benefit me? Short answer is, it really wont.

you are looking at the physical number and i agree that 50 is more than 25. however, look at the raw sp of a sorc and that of a cleric. with a much lower sp pool, the cleric is going to need sp more than the cleric. look at the quests and the raids. clerics often have to supplement their healing with scrolls and pots. sorcs seldom need to

Ergo, my original narrative was that an arcane class WILL benefit from it MORE than a cleric, and therefore in my opinion a cleric that loots it without even so much as a by your leave asking the arcanes, is putting Greed ahead of Need, because they really dont NEED it. By the same token the arcanes dont necessarily NEED it, BUT its more beneficial to them than a cleric, end of story.

Now please show me where my narrative is erroneous.

benefiting more doesnt mean the cleric do not benefit from it and thus not greedy

[seldarin]

benefiting more doesnt mean the cleric do not benefit from it and thus not greedy

So your saying a cleric looting it for an extra 25 spell pts isnt being greedy when compared with a caster that will gain benefit to spell and spell pts. Sorry mate, your idea is pretty flawed there. Based on what you say then everyone should loot whatever they pull, because they will benefit from it.

Goes back to an earlier post about WF looting defender plate because they can sell it and get plat, thus its a benefit to them. Obviously a non-wf would benefit from it more cos they could actually use it, but hey, your statement is that as long as someone is benefitting from it, then its not greedy. Sorry mate, dont agree, need before greed, and doing something like that is greed, pure and simple.

Thats like saying that non caster classes should just go ahead and loot the thelis ring, cos its SR22. Even if they dont cast spells and therefore dont benefit from the Wiz VII and dont benefit from the empower reduction, that doesnt matter, cos they still benefit from it with SR22. Tell me that you wouldnt be ****ed on your caster, who didnt have the ring, if a tank looted it. And if you say you wouldnt be ****ed, i would say you are full of it.

And if you do say you would be ****ed then it totally blows your argument out of the water about need and greed and benefitting from the item. Either way, your answer will either be full of it, or you will be disagreeing with your previous post. You decide which it is :)

[seldarin]

benefiting more doesnt mean the cleric do not benefit from it and thus not greedy

Just to quantify, did you max wisdom on your cleric, did you put all available lvl up points into wisdom, have you taken the cleric wis enhancements and have you taken energy of the zealot IV?

If you answer yes to ALL those questions then i dont see your spell pt dilemna. My cleric started with 16 Wis and manages in quests, i use pots when and if i need to, its all about mana management. Once again, to use the argument of raw spell pts is really so ho hum. Overall benefit of the item benefits arcanes MORE than divines, plain and simple. When i loot a particular item, i look at and think, will that benefit someone more than me, and if the answer is a resounding yes, then up it goes for roll or reassignment. If an item is equally benefitting me, but im feeling generous, then up it goes for roll. Sometimes i keep something for myself because it does indeed help me considerably.

I dont loot something just for posterity sake and the fact that it in some miniscule way helps me. The extra 25 spell pts would be neglible and you wouldnt even notice it, therefore what possible overwhelming benefit is it to a divine caster and the short answer is NONE.

Does the extra dmg to polar ray help an arcane, **** straight it does. Is this more than just the benefit of extra spell pts, you got it in one, hell yes it is.

So please, tell me yet again, how a cleric getting 25 spell pts from it, would find this particular item soooooooooooo overwhelmingly beneficial that they would loot it instead of first seeing if an arcane would like it.

Bearing in mind your supporting argument is about spell pts and raw pools, mine was about the overall use of the item.

[Aranticus]

Just to quantify, did you max wisdom on your cleric, did you put all available lvl up points into wisdom, have you taken the cleric wis enhancements and have you taken energy of the zealot IV?

If you answer yes to ALL those questions then i dont see your spell pt dilemna. My cleric started with 16 Wis and manages in quests, i use pots when and if i need to, its all about mana management. Once again, to use the argument of raw spell pts is really so ho hum. Overall benefit of the item benefits arcanes MORE than divines, plain and simple. When i loot a particular item, i look at and think, will that benefit someone more than me, and if the answer is a resounding yes, then up it goes for roll or reassignment. If an item is equally benefitting me, but im feeling generous, then up it goes for roll. Sometimes i keep something for myself because it does indeed help me considerably.

I dont loot something just for posterity sake and the fact that it in some miniscule way helps me. The extra 25 spell pts would be neglible and you wouldnt even notice it, therefore what possible overwhelming benefit is it to a divine caster and the short answer is NONE.

Does the extra dmg to polar ray help an arcane, **** straight it does. Is this more than just the benefit of extra spell pts, you got it in one, hell yes it is.

So please, tell me yet again, how a cleric getting 25 spell pts from it, would find this particular item soooooooooooo overwhelmingly beneficial that they would loot it instead of first seeing if an arcane would like it.

Bearing in mind your supporting argument is about spell pts and raw pools, mine was about the overall use of the item.

so how is looting something which can be of use greed? the difference is not in whether there are benefits or not but rather people's differences in valuation of loot. your opinion is that a caster will get more use out of it that a cleric and if the raid loot drops for the cleric, the cleric by looting it is considered greedy

my view is that if the bracers drop for the cleric, taking own's loot that can be used is not greedy. i would support your arguement and that if the cleric rolled against the casters for the bracers, then the cleric is greedy

[seldarin]

so how is looting something which can be of use greed? the difference is not in whether there are benefits or not but rather people's differences in valuation of loot. your opinion is that a caster will get more use out of it that a cleric and if the raid loot drops for the cleric, the cleric by looting it is considered greedy

my view is that if the bracers drop for the cleric, taking own's loot that can be used is not greedy. i would support your arguement and that if the cleric rolled against the casters for the bracers, then the cleric is greedy

I prescribe to a need before greed mentality, anyone can argue that they can USE something, but the discussion is whether something is of more benefit to someone. Anyone can find a use for something. A WF looting defender plate can find a use for it, selling it to barkeep for Plat, thats of use to them. So in response to your argument, anything is of use to anyone, cos they can benefit in some way from it, if they dont equip it they can sell it, ergo, its of use to them. That is being drawn from your statements.


Please explain how a cleric rolling on the item is being greedy, when looting it isnt? Based on your argument, they have no less use for it, irrespective of whether they have looted it, or whether they roll on it, the usuability is still the same. It doesnt become more useful because they pulled it, or less useful because they are rolling on it. Your argument in this aspect is severely flawed.

You cant say that one instance is usuable and the instance is greed, because its the same. You cant say that if a fighter pulls it then a cleric rolling against arcanes for it is greedy, as opposed to a cleric pulling and looting it AND not offering it to the arcances.

Either its usuable or it isnt. If rolling on it is greed, then so is looting it, becuase the usuability of the item is the same in both instances.

Come on mate, seriously put up a better argument than that. Saying that rolling is greed, but looting isnt, is just clutching at straws and pedantics.

Oh and btw, you didnt answer any of my question in my previous post. And one further, did you or do you, have either Wiz VI or Wiz VII item on your cleric, and if not, why not?

[Aranticus]

I prescribe to a need before greed mentality, anyone can argue that they can USE something, but the discussion is whether something is of more benefit to someone. Anyone can find a use for something. A WF looting defender plate can find a use for it, selling it to barkeep for Plat, thats of use to them. So in response to your argument, anything is of use to anyone, cos they can benefit in some way from it, if they dont equip it they can sell it, ergo, its of use to them. That is being drawn from your statements.


Please explain how a cleric rolling on the item is being greedy, when looting it isnt? Based on your argument, they have no less use for it, irrespective of whether they have looted it, or whether they roll on it, the usuability is still the same. It doesnt become more useful because they pulled it, or less useful because they are rolling on it. Your argument in this aspect is severely flawed.

You cant say that one instance is usuable and the instance is greed, because its the same. You cant say that if a fighter pulls it then a cleric rolling against arcanes for it is greedy, as opposed to a cleric pulling and looting it AND not offering it to the arcances.

Either its usuable or it isnt. If rolling on it is greed, then so is looting it, becuase the usuability of the item is the same in both instances.

Come on mate, seriously put up a better argument than that. Saying that rolling is greed, but looting isnt, is just clutching at straws and pedantics.

Oh and btw, you didnt answer any of my question in my previous post. And one further, did you or do you, have either Wiz VI or Wiz VII item on your cleric, and if not, why not?

yes i have a wiz 6 item on that cleric when i looted the bracers and i got 50 sp more out of it. the fire shield which procs real often is a life saver esp in vod or shroud 4. glaciation does nothing for me i agree

the difference is that, that item can be used for both casters and clerics. an item drops, it carries the name of the person it drop for. that by itself determines you OWN that item. why wont i roll for it? the casters will definately benefit more from the item but i'm acting on the kindness of someone else

if the wf wants to loot the defender to sell, he can do it. i'll not pressure him to give it up. the item has his name on it, it is his. if he rolls on a defender offered by someone, that will then be utter greed

as for answering your questions, i would if they were not divergent

[seldarin]

yes i have a wiz 6 item on that cleric when i looted the bracers and i got 50 sp more out of it. the fire shield which procs real often is a life saver esp in vod or shroud 4. glaciation does nothing for me i agree

the difference is that, that item can be used for both casters and clerics. an item drops, it carries the name of the person it drop for. that by itself determines you OWN that item. why wont i roll for it? the casters will definately benefit more from the item but i'm acting on the kindness of someone else

if the wf wants to loot the defender to sell, he can do it. i'll not pressure him to give it up. the item has his name on it, it is his. if he rolls on a defender offered by someone, that will then be utter greed

as for answering your questions, i would if they were not divergent

Just the response i expected. Basically your idea is, its me loot to do with as i will, BUT if its someone elses loot and the same class rolls on it then they are greedy.

I get the picture now, thats fine, it is indeed your loot and you can indeed do with as you wish to. I personally follow the approach that if someone can benefit from it more than my character then i put it up for roll, not if i can benefit from it, but IF someone else can benefit from it MORE.

My questions werent divergent at all, what i was asking was about your wisdom stat, ie did you start with 16 for example and not boost it along the way, instead going with str or con perhaps, therefore lowering your manapool and then using all sorts of subterfuge to say that a cleric has a substantially lower spell point pool :)

So no divergence at all, but you seemed to be hesitant to answer my question, so perhaps that speaks for itself in that regard.

By all means continue looting to your hearts content ANYTHING that will benefit you in ANY way, even if selling it at the tavern, because after all that does benefit you with more plat and dont be at all surprised if a few ppl get a wee annoyed at this line of thinking. Then of course you will be free to start a thread about griefing over looting :)

I use different methodology for my looting preferences, but thats just me and the lamppost, each to their own, happy looting :)

[Aranticus]

Just the response i expected. Basically your idea is, its me loot to do with as i will, BUT if its someone elses loot and the same class rolls on it then they are greedy.

I get the picture now, thats fine, it is indeed your loot and you can indeed do with as you wish to. I personally follow the approach that if someone can benefit from it more than my character then i put it up for roll, not if i can benefit from it, but IF someone else can benefit from it MORE.

My questions werent divergent at all, what i was asking was about your wisdom stat, ie did you start with 16 for example and not boost it along the way, instead going with str or con perhaps, therefore lowering your manapool and then using all sorts of subterfuge to say that a cleric has a substantially lower spell point pool :)

So no divergence at all, but you seemed to be hesitant to answer my question, so perhaps that speaks for itself in that regard.

By all means continue looting to your hearts content ANYTHING that will benefit you in ANY way, even if selling it at the tavern, because after all that does benefit you with more plat and dont be at all surprised if a few ppl get a wee annoyed at this line of thinking. Then of course you will be free to start a thread about griefing over looting :)

I use different methodology for my looting preferences, but thats just me and the lamppost, each to their own, happy looting :)

strange that when you attacked my arguement, you used knowledge of me looting the bracers to throw it down but when it came to the greed part, you totally dismissed all the times i've given the loot away

just a note you might want to make, if i loot something i cannot use or fit my build, i'd offer it up for roll. my fighter lacks a tower shield for ac, madstone dropped, i gave it away. my ranger had lorriks necklace dropped, i gave it away as well

if you checked the numbers i displayed then you would know that 1500 is close to the max a non dwarven clr w/o shroud item would have. the divergent portion is when you asked what overwhelming benefit a cleric would have

lol calling names.... :rolleyes:

[Lorien_the_First_One]

It's your tome, do what you want with it...

That said...don't do it.

+2s are common enough most people would understand, and if people would be happy with a +2 they can guartee that with their 1750. Even with an 8 str if you put on a +6 item a 14 str is enough to lug what a sorc needs to lug most of the time. 16 certainly would be enough.

Give the +3 to a melee class and make them happy :D

[lord_of_rage]

No one is saying you have to.

No one can force you to.

But I got news for your lowbie on Argo;

If you pull a +3 Str tome on a raid, and loot it on your 8 Str sorc; You'll most likely find that your sorc will never be accepted for another raid by
A) those players
B) their guildies
C) their channel mates
D) their friends

Blacklisting is common on Argo amongst raiding guilds. Period.

It doesn't matter if you like it.
It doesn't matter if you agree with it.
It doesn't matter if you feel that it's not fair.
It doesn't matter if you think it's against the EULA, because Turbine cannot control who people accept, or do not accept to their groups within this game.

It is what it is. And anyone doing as the OP described will have problems on this server. If you can't accept that; Then perhaps you should stay on Kyber.

This is selfish and greedy on the part of you and your raiding guilds. As stated I give up loot quite a bit. Thats how I was introduced to this game and how I continue to play. The problem is players getting things in a twist because someone decides that they want their pull. It doesnt mattter if it makes sense or not. Who are you to tell someone else what to do with their loot. I just hate to see good loot ie +3 tomes left in chests. But as much as it ticks me off it is up to the person pulling it. You and your "raiding guilds" are putting demands on a player to give up their pulls. If he decides to give it up awsome. But he should never be put on the threat of a "blacklist" because he chooses to take the loot he earned.

[lord_of_rage]

Tell ya what mate, you hold onto that mentality so that when the Sorc who you didnt think of giving that +3 cha tome to doesnt land his FOD etc cos his DC is one or two lower than it could be, because you ate that tome on your fighter, who obviously would look much prettier with 11 Cha instead of 8.

I take the high road on MY server, which is khyber. I pulled a +3 Wis tome on my rogue in reaver run. It wouldve improved my will save by 1, it wouldve improved my spot by 1, but apart from that wouldnt have done diddly for me. Instead of adopting the attitude of well it would be useful to me, i looked at it from the point of view that the one class that would benefit from it MOST was a cleric, so i asked the clerics in the group if they had used a Wis tome, one of them said no, so i gave it to him, no ifs buts or whens, no roll needed, straight across.

In a hound run on my bard, i pulled the thelis ring. Yes Wiz VII wouldve been great for my bard, extra spell pts and all that, however IMO a full time caster, ie cleric, sorc or wizzie would benefit from it more, so i put it up for roll, however i stipulated caster only. Wouldve benefitted others with mana bars, and the SR as well, however i believe that a full time caster gets more benefit from it.

That is called putting server first, OVERALL benefit. The person you help today, could also be the person that helps your group down the road, if not, meh, no biggie, its only a make believe piece of graphic on a computer screen and sure as hell doesnt impact on my life. If someone chooses to loot something that doesnt really benefit them that much, ie a cleric looting the VOD bracers, which obviously the glaciation VIII will help with all those cold cleric spells, i think there are zero of those, then i sincerely hope that someone down the track a group they are in fails as a result of someone not having something that wouldve benefitted them, but they were greedy and looted it.

My point, yes whats in the chest is yours, BUT, perhaps a little bit of commonsense and forward thinking about what could benefit more ppl than just yourself.

I always give put raid loot up for roll or just gear if someone else really needs it. But the point being I have is if I give gear up its because I want to. Not because I am expected to for fear of blacklisting or other such actions. In the past week my tempest has given up 2 tumbleweed rings.My barb gave a +6 con ring away. Could he use it absolutly. Could the dex ranger or iron monk use it more? Yes. So they are gladly offered. But back to my point. The loot is given away because I want to give to someone who can use it more. Not because it is expected or demanded of me. If you have run with my toons you will know that this is the case. On that same note I was once told my twf barb had no need for the BPOD. That it wouldnt benefit my build and I should give it up. People's veiws of what will and wont benefit from a piece of gear can differ. Now personally I never eat +3 tomes I dont need. My warchanter doesnt need an int tome, or dex tome, as much as the rouge in party. My min maxed barb doesnt need that cha tome, wis or int as much as a caster, cleric, or rouge so they will be offered up. But again so people dont read this wrong, Its because want to give them away. Not because it is expected, demanded, or otherwise influenced.

[Kreaper]

Well...you're more than welcome to PuG it out if you feel that you should take any loot that falls with your name beside it. Because, that's what you're going to be doing once your name's tossed around in a few channels here.



Of course....funny thing....PuGs don't generally have a 98+% success rate at raiding on Argo either.....;)

LOL See what I mean?

And pugs don't normally have all this pizzing and moaning about tomes. Doesn't it seem odd that with such a high success rate that you guys still stress so much over them yet lowly puggers usually just congratulate each other? As for your pugging comment, I have been doing it for three years. Why change now? I have had one person, who is/was a member of one of the big "raid guilds", in three years threaten to have me blacklisted (And with no less than three guilds!) He was all bent out of shape because I gave a +3 Cha tome to my Pally guildie and he wanted to commandeer it for a roll even though he wasn't even rolling for it. I guess that dog was all bark too. I have run with a few people in those guilds since then. (Pugs, not guild runs.) I guess those black lists are either getting too long to check all the names before every group or some members of those guilds don't bother to read them. His threats have had absolutely no impact on my game play.

I have no problem with giving up loot I can't use. But it is mine and if I want it to go to a guildie first then it will. If none of them need it, it is up for grabs. I will even give up tomes if my character can't use them. However, I will NEVER consider myself so important that I would try to tell someone else what to do with their loot. Who am I to tell that melee he can't eat that +3 Cha tome to help his UMD? Who am I to tell that sorc he can't eat that +3 str tome to help keep him from becoming encumbered? Who am I to tell that barb he can't eat that +3 dex tom to help his reflex saves a bit? That's just not my place and I couldn't care less. Grats on the pull! That's my attitude.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

You can say you would give up the tome all you want.. The test is if it happened to you would you really do it. i know most wouldnt. The proof is in the action.

Ive gave up +3 tomes. YOU may not understand why or how someone could do that...but then, thats kinda the point, isnt it?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

This is selfish and greedy on the part of you and your raiding guilds. As stated I give up loot quite a bit. Thats how I was introduced to this game and how I continue to play. The problem is players getting things in a twist because someone decides that they want their pull. It doesnt mattter if it makes sense or not. Who are you to tell someone else what to do with their loot. I just hate to see good loot ie +3 tomes left in chests. But as much as it ticks me off it is up to the person pulling it. You and your "raiding guilds" are putting demands on a player to give up their pulls. If he decides to give it up awsome. But he should never be put on the threat of a "blacklist" because he chooses to take the loot he earned.

Selfish and greedy?
You're absolutely 100% wrong.

[BlackSteel]

I'd be jealous, and think the tome is a bit of a waste. But ultimately wouldnt say anything b/c you did pull it, and can use it. If just for the weight load.

Not nearly as angry as when I saw a cleric take the titan gloves just b/c he was a loot *****. You shouldnt take loot, just to write in your bio that you've looted it before.

[HeavenlyCloud]

Not nearly as angry as when I saw a cleric take the titan gloves just b/c he was a loot *****. You shouldnt take loot, just to write in your bio that you've looted it before.

He wanted no spell failure from heavy armor

[kpax]

im having a hard time following this argument, does this mean that if you get more kills than anyone else in group that you are entitled to that percentage of their loot because you contributed more? :) :) :)

[gamblerjoe]

the OP asked if anyone would get upset, and some people said yes. how is it that the people who said yes are telling the OP what to do with his loot? he asked a straight forward question about what ones emotional state would be after a particular event. he did not ask if anything was or wasnt allowed.

in fact, some of the people who posted said go ahead and do it, even though it would upset them.

now, just like its the OPs right to just pull the tome and eat it, its everyone elses right to respond however they do. my answer to the OP: before u pull the tome, i will politely and gently mention that there r people who can use it more, and that if it were me i would put it up for a roll. after u pull the tome out of the chest i will blacklist u. i wont make a big deal out of any of it.

i practice what i preach too. i have only rolled 1 +3 tome in over a hundred reaver runs and i put it up for a roll. it makes me sick to think that i could one day pass a tome to someone only to find out later that they r a greedy jerk.

[Fakko]

*** SNIP ***
But scrolls cost money so TS on goggles would save me Plat is what you'd hear. Let's get serious. Plenty of Sorcs are buffing with GH scrolls these days, which cost a lot more than TS and used far more often.
*** SNIP ***

Man, if you're a sorc and you don't have GH memorized you're gimped!!

Wait .... wrong thread.

Sorry.

[Big-Dex]

If I, as a pure Sorcerer, pulled a +3 str tome out of the reaver chest, would all of you tanks on argo hate me forever if I looted and ate it?

Just wondering :)

I have an 8 base Str and really don't like being helpless. The reason I an asking this and not settling for a +2 tome is because I also don't like being encumbered or overweight, and every point in Str helps your weight load.


FWIW...

It is a matter of degrees and consequences. It is your loot. You can do with it what you want. However...

You will likely get blacklisted and anger many if you...

Took it despite the fact that a tank in the party would have benefitted by it in a much more significant and direct way than you did (encumberance vs. damage, etc.). This is primarily a min/max server and the majority of raiding parties know what stats benefit who and are judge/jury/executioner at all offenses there relating.
You took it for a stat that you tanked on at the onset of creating your character knowing you didn't really need it for your class (wanted maybe, but not needed) and a tank in your party has been trying to pull that tome for his primary stat which would would round out his character nicely. He/she will likely be ticked ... whether they say itor blacklist you or not. Your name will not resonate well with them.
There are certainly other reasons, but these will make folks angry beyond a doubt. But, as it has been said, it is yours to do with as you wish, but so are the consequences. To give it up for the tank will make folks want to roll with you and see you as a classy, selfless kind of player. To keep it for yourself for an originally tanked stat, well...

'Nuff said.

Dex was here.

[Do'Urden]

To this date, the only time I've ever truly agonized about putting something I pulled up for roll was a +3 CHA Tome pulled by my Paladin (Reaver). I eventually decided to give it up for roll to the 2 Sorcs in the party who didn't have +3 CHA Tome already.

At the time, it didn't seem like a huge deal to have 24CHA vs. 26CHA but Divine Might was introduced soon after and I learned I would be locked out of DMIII (currently 16 Base with a +1 tome). I still regret giving that tome up a little but it was absolutely the right thing to do at the time. I'll get my +3 CHA Tome....eventually :D

The point is...I like to group with people who at least have measurable consideration for the people they group with. I've seen a pure 16 Paladin loot a +3 INT tome "for skill points" (his words) over the 2 Wizards in the party who would have liked to roll on it. Those 4 or 8 skill points before cap are REALLY going to push his build over the limit I'm sure. That's the kind of mentality I like to avoid personally.

[toughguyjoe]

It still astounds me that people have differing views of what "need before Greed" even means. it hurt my eyes reading all that stuff between sel and aranticus, but it was a semi fun read.





On to the important part, i'd like to ask this:

Wankydasmoto, when are the Cleavon Ironrage fanclub meetings? i could squeeze in an appearance :D:D




See, when Cleavon posts about stuff like this I believe him, and that's because he's all over the place and I've had the pleasure of grouping with him. He is not sequestered in an introverted group of individuals who see themselves as too good to play with just anyone. See, because Cleavon pugs people know him, and he gains credibility from this.

Example of random average argonot:

"Oh! That's Cleavon posting! I know him, he's a cool guy and got me through the Titan, I'll give a listen to what he has to say :)"

PS, apologies for using you as an example Cleavon, but I couldn't think of a more epic and well regarded pugger, anything said here is only done so with admiration.

[Zenix_Leviticus]

Wow, this topic just keeps going and going and yet we never get people to agree.

Before long we are going to have to change a popular saying from:

"Never discuss politics or religion."

to

"Never discuss politics, religion, or raid loot."


I find it somewhat hilarious to see people talking about who needs the tome "more".
If I am a tank/melee class, I have my strength maxed out. I have a +2 tome that
I have either found or bought from the AH asap! If I take a +3 tome I will take my STR
from a 30 to 31 or 31 to 32. I will get exactly one point of benefit from it and it may
increase my to hit by +1 or not..... If one of the other classes take it, they will get
a +1 to a +3 benefit from it.

+3 tomes are not about NEED. They are about MAXIMIZING or TWINKING your
character out. Getting that last +1 to max you out and make you super uber as
opposed to just uber.

People complete quests all through the game and don't feel entitled to your loot except
when it is in a raid. Then they think they are entitled to anything that you get that
fits a preconcieved idea of what classes should get what...


Don't get me wrong, I give away most raid loot to classes that I feel would benefit
more than myself. However, I do not expect anyone give up their loot for me and
would not harbor any ill feelings to anyone that used a tome or took an item that I
could use more.



About the whole 'black list' thing:

If you are so powerful that blacklisting me or anyone else makes any difference at all,
then you are powerful enough to NOT be squabling over ANY raid loot. Do you really
think that blacklisting anyone will even cause a hiccup in their gaming life? I have
managed to do every quest but one in the game by not partying with 95% or better
of either server that I play on. Actually, I have completed every quest on Argo with
just the same 5-10 people. Blacklisting may make you feel better, but it means nothing
in the bigger scheme of things.

Actually, if you travel with the guy that just ate the +3 str tome then you know that
next time he CAN'T benefit from it and stands a better chance of giving it away. You
should be looking to group with this guy instead of blacklisting him.



I have ZERO raid loot and ZERO +3 tomes on ANY of my 18 characters on either
server. This has stopped me from doing absolutely nothing! The only raid loot that
matters it 20th, 40th, etc... runs and Shroud Ingredients all others are just bonus
loot and belong to whomever was lucky enough to get them in their chests.



Just my thoughts and I know they mean almost nothing since I am not grouping with
over 95% of you anyway. Just the same, they are my thoughts.


-Zenixx

[Eternity25]

I agree with Zenix. Anytime something is put up for roll its a bonus. When I do raids, I usually hope to pull an item or tome I still need. I don't go in expecting that anything anyone else pulls is up for roll. if its a caster item such as the napkin or I pull the madstone boots, I'd put it up for roll immediately. Tomes are different and the people I grouped with showed it by not putting +3 Cha tomes up for roll. If a caster wants to boost his encumberance by looting a +3 str tome because they never used a +2 str tome and no one wants to make the trade, then I think the sorc should use the +3 str tome instead of paying the overpriced of 5+Million Gold for a +2 Str tome when they got a free +3 tome.

[Zenix_Leviticus]

I agree with Zenix. [clipped]

I want to put this in my signature because I think it may be the first time ever that
these words have been in print in the same sentence.


ROFL!! :)

[RobbinB]

If you feel your character gets significant benefit from it then go ahead and take it. As far as the "need before greed" and "what's best for the server" arguments then I don't see how you don't have a strong case. The vast majority of tanks should already have their +2 tome so a +3 won't be pivotal to suddenly making them a force to be reckoned with. On the other hand, your sorc becoming encumbered is a pain in the butt and could result in quest failure in certain extreme situations.

Another point to consider is that your sorceror is in every group you join. If you give away your tome to some random character, you might never group with him/her again. So maybe the best thing you can do for your future groups is to maximize the ability of your character so you can always contribute optimally to the success of those groups.

[lord_of_rage]

Selfish and greedy?
You're absolutely 100% wrong.

No Im really not. Whats wrong is blacklisting someone because they chose to take the loot they recieved.

[lord_of_rage]

Ive gave up +3 tomes. YOU may not understand why or how someone could do that...but then, thats kinda the point, isnt it?

Ive given up 3 of the 5 +3 tomes I have pulled that werent on end rewards. I think I understand just alittle.

[toughguyjoe]

The vast majority of tanks should already have their +2 tome so a +3 won't be pivotal to suddenly making them a force to be reckoned with .


If a peson deciees to waste a +2 tome by reading one that brings them to an odd number, more power to them.

tomes go like this people:

read +1 at level 1, level up and cap and try to get a +3 from a raid.

Eat a +2 and wait for +4's if you really want them.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Ive given up 3 of the 5 +3 tomes I have pulled that werent on end rewards. I think I understand just alittle.


No Im really not. Whats wrong is blacklisting someone because they chose to take the loot they recieved.

This argument has been going since the Devs changed the way raid loot appeared in the chest. Nothing you say will convince me to change my view, and I cant convince you to change yours.

It makes me pretty peeved to see people have the attitude you have and Im sure you feel the same way about mine.

I should've stayed out of this one after my first post, like I said I was gonna.
All Im doing is stressing myself out.

I say this though, Argonnessen has a great raid pugging group out there and Im glad 90% of them dont share yours, and others in this thread, attitude. No offence.

[bandyman1]

This is selfish and greedy on the part of you and your raiding guilds. As stated I give up loot quite a bit. Thats how I was introduced to this game and how I continue to play. The problem is players getting things in a twist because someone decides that they want their pull. It doesnt mattter if it makes sense or not. Who are you to tell someone else what to do with their loot. I just hate to see good loot ie +3 tomes left in chests. But as much as it ticks me off it is up to the person pulling it. You and your "raiding guilds" are putting demands on a player to give up their pulls. If he decides to give it up awsome. But he should never be put on the threat of a "blacklist" because he chooses to take the loot he earned.


No one's threatening him, lol. He's more than able to loot the chest.


But the next time he hits join, my guildies, friends, channel mates, and I, are gonna be hitting decline :).

[bandyman1]

LOL See what I mean?

And pugs don't normally have all this pizzing and moaning about tomes. Doesn't it seem odd that with such a high success rate that you guys still stress so much over them yet lowly puggers usually just congratulate each other? As for your pugging comment, I have been doing it for three years. Why change now? I have had one person, who is/was a member of one of the big "raid guilds", in three years threaten to have me blacklisted (And with no less than three guilds!) He was all bent out of shape because I gave a +3 Cha tome to my Pally guildie and he wanted to commandeer it for a roll even though he wasn't even rolling for it. I guess that dog was all bark too. I have run with a few people in those guilds since then. (Pugs, not guild runs.) I guess those black lists are either getting too long to check all the names before every group or some members of those guilds don't bother to read them. His threats have had absolutely no impact on my game play.

I have no problem with giving up loot I can't use. But it is mine and if I want it to go to a guildie first then it will. If none of them need it, it is up for grabs. I will even give up tomes if my character can't use them. However, I will NEVER consider myself so important that I would try to tell someone else what to do with their loot. Who am I to tell that melee he can't eat that +3 Cha tome to help his UMD? Who am I to tell that sorc he can't eat that +3 str tome to help keep him from becoming encumbered? Who am I to tell that barb he can't eat that +3 dex tom to help his reflex saves a bit? That's just not my place and I couldn't care less. Grats on the pull! That's my attitude.


No one's telling anyone that they can't loot anything. That's the point you peeps keep tending to miss.

All we're saying is; Don't be surprised when your raiding opprotunities ( of successful runs at least ) on Argo keep diminishing ;).

[wankydasmoto]

On to the important part, i'd like to ask this:

Wankydasmoto, when are the Cleavon Ironrage fanclub meetings? i could squeeze in an appearance :D:D

SAWEEEETTTT! Nah, but seriously, I know I appreciate the haste potion guys, and was glad to see your membership grow by 50%!

Like I said, you guys carry credibility with me cuz you put yourselves out there in the community rather than only make threats about being banned from the cool kids table (even though I know IDHP already has permanent membership of the cool club :)).

Anyway, the circular motion of this thread is getting to be too much (and jeez, hasn't this been discussed one or two or twenty thousand times already?).

I think you all should discuss it more, because clearly, arguing about loot policies on the forums is the answer to all our problems!

[Grimdiegn]

If I pulled a +3 str tome on my sorc I would give it to someone that could use it more. I would eat a +3 con tome on my sorc without thinking.

If I was on a barb or a ranger and a sorc pulled a +3 str tome and ate it I wouldn't care either.

It's our loot and we can do what we want with it.

[IgorUnchained]

nom nom nom

The way it should be.




To put it another way;

On the server most peeps who're posting you'll have no problems actually play on; You may be fine.

I can only speak for Argo, because I play here, and raid daily.

And on Argo; You're going to have problems.

The way it actually is.

I cant speak for other servers because I only raid on Argo.....and not often (too often still).....but bandyman speaks the truth. It might have something to do with the fact that bandy and his ilk are the ones who do the most raiding, and that is the way they believe/behave. Im not knocking it...."when in Rome" as the feller says.

That said, get out of the "elite raiding" groups and it is NEVER expected that you give up your loot. I have never pulled a +2 tome and kept it.....I gave them up freely......but I have also been given a bunch of +1s and random raid loot that I didnt pull. It is a tradition that I dont agree with, but even so....Im no worse off for participating in their way.

I have never asked for anyone's loot...ever. I have never been TOLD to give anyone my loot. Still, the cycle seems to exist in a balance that I can live with (even if I have to get to 1750 again so I can get another +2 tome)

[Kurlore]

IMO, if the op looted the tome, big whoop, his pull his loot.

sometimes you have to think wwkd?


what would kick do.....


:D

[pscomputers]

Well, I just finished up a VoD on my sorc and there were 3 clerics in party. I have the Gloves and was only looking for the bracers.

A barbarian pulled the bracers and put them up for roll. Needless to say, all 3 clerics rolled and I lost the roll.

I must say, I am annoyed a little.

[lord_of_rage]

This argument has been going since the Devs changed the way raid loot appeared in the chest. Nothing you say will convince me to change my view, and I cant convince you to change yours.

It makes me pretty peeved to see people have the attitude you have and Im sure you feel the same way about mine.

I should've stayed out of this one after my first post, like I said I was gonna.
All Im doing is stressing myself out.

I say this though, Argonnessen has a great raid pugging group out there and Im glad 90% of them dont share yours, and others in this thread, attitude. No offence.

Here is my view so I make sure you understand it loud and clear this time. Because even though I have stated that I give loot to those that need it more and have given 3 out of the 5 +3 tomes I have pulled in chests away you still assume that I feel you should never give loot away. I personally will always give the loot to someone who needs it if I dont. Now if I need the item say madstone boots for my barbarians I will take it. I gave a bloodstone away today to a buddy because he hasnt pulled one in in the 2 years he has been playing. I guess that makes me a horrible person who hoardes all my loot right? I have lost count of the loot I have given away to a buddy or a new player. If 90% percent of them shared my veiws there would be alot of loot being given away.

So. My veiw is this. The loot belongs to the person who pulled it. It is their choice on what to do with it. I personally hope that they would give it to someone who needs it if they dont.

What I dont like about this thread and certian people is because someone veiws that they could use the loot you are going to "blacklist" them. That is so childish. Its like if you dont give me your cookie I wont be your friend. Its truly sad. That is what I dont like. I dont like the expectations being placed on people.

[lord_of_rage]

No one's threatening him, lol. He's more than able to loot the chest.


But the next time he hits join, my guildies, friends, channel mates, and I, are gonna be hitting decline :).

Wow I guess its better that I am raiding with good people on khyber. Id so hate to be blacklisted because my str human tempest actually used the +3 str he could pull out of reaver. Treat people the way you want to be treated. From your atttitude I can see how it must honestly go.

[bandyman1]

Wow I guess its better that I am raiding with good people on khyber. Id so hate to be blacklisted because my str human tempest actually used the +3 str he could pull out of reaver. Treat people the way you want to be treated. From your atttitude I can see how it must honestly go.

Umm...who was talking about blacklisting a Str based toon using a Str tome :confused:????

Are you blind??? Unable to decipher the context of that pretty stream of words typed by the people you are trying to argue with???


The Str tome went where it NEEDED to go. On a melee based toon.

NOT a non-melee sorc with an 8 Str.

One of the two immediately above discussed subjects is NOT like the other.

Most sane people will have no problem with one, because they'd do it themselves.

And most people on Argo will probably blacklist after the other.

I'll leave you to figure out which.

[seldarin]

strange that when you attacked my arguement, you used knowledge of me looting the bracers to throw it down but when it came to the greed part, you totally dismissed all the times i've given the loot away

just a note you might want to make, if i loot something i cannot use or fit my build, i'd offer it up for roll. my fighter lacks a tower shield for ac, madstone dropped, i gave it away. my ranger had lorriks necklace dropped, i gave it away as well

if you checked the numbers i displayed then you would know that 1500 is close to the max a non dwarven clr w/o shroud item would have. the divergent portion is when you asked what overwhelming benefit a cleric would have

lol calling names.... :rolleyes:

Let me see if i get something right here, and im just making sure, cos i would hate to quote things wrongly. An item gives you about 25 extra spell pts, and you loot it, but something that can have a substantial increase to AC or combat ability, you give away? Hardly seems logical wouldnt you say.

Just to clarify something though, last time i checked, your fighter dual wields, i rarely if ever see them with a shield AND there are far better shields around than the madstone one and im quite sure you have a better shield anyway, so kinda moot point there as madstone shield is pretty rubbish.

As to lorriks, the only way i would see that given away is if it didnt fit your build for some reason becuase you had something better in that slot. Therefore it isnt a case of giving something away cos you think it will benefit someone else more, its a case of it doesnt really suit you so you give it away.

I never said that you just loot everything and then sell it, and my original post was about that one particular item as an example. You tried to justify it by saying that it benefited you. Yes undoubtably it did, however my post was about OVERALL BEST benefit of an item, you know WHO would get greater benefit of it. Can you honestly sit there and say that looting something for 25 spell pts, which really lets face it isnt gonna save the world and sure wouldnt make the difference between fail and pass in a quest, as opposed to giving it to someone who A. Would get a better spell pt benefit from it AND B. be able to increase the dmg of a spell with it.

Lets break it down to simple maths:

Cleric gets 1 minor benefit
Wizzie gets 2 benefits
Sorc gets 1 x bigger benefit and 1 benefit.

Now doing the math there, which class has more benefit from said item, the cleric? I dont think so. Ergo my original point was about the need before greed scenario, did cleric NEED the item, for 25 spell pts, please, you gotta be kidding me into trying to justify that as NEED. Additionally you said that IF a cleric rolled on the item, then they were being greedy. How is it that rolling on it is greedy, but looting it isnt?

The benefit is still the same either way. You really cant say one way is greed and the other isnt, when the overall benefit is miniscule, but your justification is benefit. Benefit is in all cases, not just if you pull it. The benefit isnt any less by rolling on it as opposed to looting it yourself.

Its all well and good to give items away, and i applaud you for that, i do it quite regularly myself. The difference is i even give away items that would have benefit to me, BUT someone else will benefit from more. Hell i was even hesitant to take the bards cloak on my bard when it dropped for someone else and it took 6 raid members to convince to do so. The reason i was hesitant was because i didnt really think i would use it that often. I dont grab something just for the sake of it.

I started getting into you about the bracers when you said that you benefitted from it, but that if a cleric rolled on it, then that would be greed. That right there was a wee laughable because on one hand you are saying its ok to loot it cos it yours, which by the way yes you are quite entitled to do and i wont tell you what to do with your loot, but when it came to rolling on it, that the cleric would be greedy. You cant have it one way for scenario A and totally reverse for scenario B.

As i said, i have different ideas on looting and lets leave it at that, not calling names, just saying how i view things. You are free to do with your loot as you will, as i am free to voice my opinion as i will.

[seldarin]

I'd be jealous, and think the tome is a bit of a waste. But ultimately wouldnt say anything b/c you did pull it, and can use it. If just for the weight load.

Not nearly as angry as when I saw a cleric take the titan gloves just b/c he was a loot *****. You shouldnt take loot, just to write in your bio that you've looted it before.


One the biggest things that gives me a hell of a chuckle, is all the tools around that have in the bio,

2 x xxxxxx
2 x xxxxxx
xxxxxx
xxxxx


where xxxxx = raid loot.

Does anyone really care of give a flying monkey **** that they have 2 belts of whatever or 2 rings of something, not really. Seriously do they think it makes them doubly uber having 2 of them? Nope it makes them look like selfish little prats that they looted a second 1 AND then put it in their bio. If no one else wants it, sure loot it, sell it, but geazus, give us a break, why put any of that **** in your bio, i guess they didnt get toys as a kid :)

[seldarin]

Well, I just finished up a VoD on my sorc and there were 3 clerics in party. I have the Gloves and was only looking for the bracers.

A barbarian pulled the bracers and put them up for roll. Needless to say, all 3 clerics rolled and I lost the roll.

I must say, I am annoyed a little.

Kinda what i have been trying to point out in my other posts. What possible overall benefit would the clerics get, as opposed to an arcane? In that scenario, if there was 1 arcane in the group, wouldve been handed straight across, no questions asked, more than 1 arcane, roll for ARCANES only, no divine casters.

Using Aranticus's argument, everyone that casts spells should roll on them, cos they will benefit, leastaways, thats what he said. Oh wait, sorry, no thats right, he said they are greedy if they roll, but well within rights to loot cos it benefits, just had to clear that up :)

[Aranticus]

Let me see if i get something right here, and im just making sure, cos i would hate to quote things wrongly. An item gives you about 25 extra spell pts, and you loot it, but something that can have a substantial increase to AC or combat ability, you give away? Hardly seems logical wouldnt you say.

Just to clarify something though, last time i checked, your fighter dual wields, i rarely if ever see them with a shield AND there are far better shields around than the madstone one and im quite sure you have a better shield anyway, so kinda moot point there as madstone shield is pretty rubbish.

yes you are correct in that my fighter duals wields, but he is also built as a intimitank. if you ran vod or hound with him, you would see him tanking the mobs with a 60+ ac. madstone shield is not beneficial to him as it caps the max dex. i've also passed up lorriks champion too. while it is a nice improvement to have (more dr), it is not something i have in mind

As to lorriks, the only way i would see that given away is if it didnt fit your build for some reason becuase you had something better in that slot. Therefore it isnt a case of giving something away cos you think it will benefit someone else more, its a case of it doesnt really suit you so you give it away.

my ranger is using a +6 wis neck and lorriks will give him a huge boost since he also uses his sp for self heal and he does not have a sp item on. the key thing is i gave it up to a cleric w/o a sp item as it is going to benefit him alot more on my toon

I never said that you just loot everything and then sell it, and my original post was about that one particular item as an example. You tried to justify it by saying that it benefited you. Yes undoubtably it did, however my post was about OVERALL BEST benefit of an item, you know WHO would get greater benefit of it. Can you honestly sit there and say that looting something for 25 spell pts, which really lets face it isnt gonna save the world and sure wouldnt make the difference between fail and pass in a quest, as opposed to giving it to someone who A. Would get a better spell pt benefit from it AND B. be able to increase the dmg of a spell with it.

and again its not 25sp. 50 sp improvement

Lets break it down to simple maths:

Cleric gets 1 minor benefit
Wizzie gets 2 benefits
Sorc gets 1 x bigger benefit and 1 benefit.

Now doing the math there, which class has more benefit from said item, the cleric? I dont think so. Ergo my original point was about the need before greed scenario, did cleric NEED the item, for 25 spell pts, please, you gotta be kidding me into trying to justify that as NEED. Additionally you said that IF a cleric rolled on the item, then they were being greedy. How is it that rolling on it is greedy, but looting it isnt?

The benefit is still the same either way. You really cant say one way is greed and the other isnt, when the overall benefit is miniscule, but your justification is benefit. Benefit is in all cases, not just if you pull it. The benefit isnt any less by rolling on it as opposed to looting it yourself.

i agree it benefits the casters more. what i'm saying is a cleric can use it as well and when it drops for you, it is yours. taking whats yours that you can use is greed? thats where we do not agree

Its all well and good to give items away, and i applaud you for that, i do it quite regularly myself. The difference is i even give away items that would have benefit to me, BUT someone else will benefit from more. Hell i was even hesitant to take the bards cloak on my bard when it dropped for someone else and it took 6 raid members to convince to do so. The reason i was hesitant was because i didnt really think i would use it that often. I dont grab something just for the sake of it.

kudos to you, i applaud your actions

I started getting into you about the bracers when you said that you benefitted from it, but that if a cleric rolled on it, then that would be greed. That right there was a wee laughable because on one hand you are saying its ok to loot it cos it yours, which by the way yes you are quite entitled to do and i wont tell you what to do with your loot, but when it came to rolling on it, that the cleric would be greedy. You cant have it one way for scenario A and totally reverse for scenario B.

As i said, i have different ideas on looting and lets leave it at that, not calling names, just saying how i view things. You are free to do with your loot as you will, as i am free to voice my opinion as i will.

i think i gonna say it for the last time, i consider it greedy becoz someone else is giving up their loot for others to use

[Mhykke]

I don't know about any "blacklist" that people are getting worked up over. If there's one, I haven't seen it.

I will speak personally though.

I'd rather be in a group full of people that openly share their items that drop (so that if they're not really going to get much use out of it, they give it to someone who can), rather than in a group that believes that anything that drops for them, no matter what it is, is useful in some fashion and so they'll take it (which I believe a caster who takes a +3 strength tome because he has an 8 str is doing - encumbrance is just an excuse, if they cared about it, they would've done something about it up until that point).

If someone has the second attitude, I don't put them on a list, and I don't share their name with others telling people not to group with that person. I do try and remember the person so I can avoid grouping with them again. I'm usually not too successful, in fact, there's only 1 person that has pulled a stunt with loot that I try to avoid grouping with. Most I usually forget. But if it is their right to take anything and everything, it is my right to avoid grouping with them.

[Aranticus]

One the biggest things that gives me a hell of a chuckle, is all the tools around that have in the bio,

2 x xxxxxx
2 x xxxxxx
xxxxxx
xxxxx


where xxxxx = raid loot.

Does anyone really care of give a flying monkey **** that they have 2 belts of whatever or 2 rings of something, not really. Seriously do they think it makes them doubly uber having 2 of them? Nope it makes them look like selfish little prats that they looted a second 1 AND then put it in their bio. If no one else wants it, sure loot it, sell it, but geazus, give us a break, why put any of that **** in your bio, i guess they didnt get toys as a kid :)

20th rewards
no one wanted it

but i agree there can be pricks out there

[seldarin]

20th rewards
no one wanted it

but i agree there can be pricks out there

I realise how they get more than 1, my point as per my post was, why put it in your bio? Who the **** cares how many of what you have. I know i sure as hell dont wet my pants over knowing someone has lots of raid loot on a toon and more than one of something.

I guess i have been playing a game for awhile and also dont feel the need to believe that my uberness in game or RL is linked in anyway to my raid loot :) or the tomes i have eaten.

[seldarin]

I don't know about any "blacklist" that people are getting worked up over. If there's one, I haven't seen it.

I will speak personally though.

I'd rather be in a group full of people that openly share their items that drop (so that if they're not really going to get much use out of it, they give it to someone who can), rather than in a group that believes that anything that drops for them, no matter what it is, is useful in some fashion and so they'll take it (which I believe a caster who takes a +3 strength tome because he has an 8 str is doing - encumbrance is just an excuse, if they cared about it, they would've done something about it up until that point).

If someone has the second attitude, I don't put them on a list, and I don't share their name with others telling people not to group with that person. I do try and remember the person so I can avoid grouping with them again. I'm usually not too successful, in fact, there's only 1 person that has pulled a stunt with loot that I try to avoid grouping with. Most I usually forget. But if it is their right to take anything and everything, it is my right to avoid grouping with them.

Exactly, i dont compile a list of ppl that loot non appropriate raid loot, its theirs so be it, i do what i do with mine, ie give it away, but if they want to loot something that really wont do **** for them, more like a minimal benefit, ok, thats them.

The only partial list i used to have was ppl that behaved like ******s, however now i stretch that to guilds and its easier to maintain, i just avoid grouping with certain guilds.

I dont as a general rule share this with others, they can form their own opinions, but if someone has been extremely disruptive to a group i may send a tell to a group leader if i see them with such and such in their group, forewarned can be forearmed :)

Whilst i dont prescribe to stupid behaviour with loot, end of the day, yes it it assigned to a person to do with as they will, but if you are stupid with your loot, dont expect any favours further down the track, karma works like that i have found :)

[seldarin]

i think i gonna say it for the last time, i consider it greedy becoz someone else is giving up their loot for others to use

This is one of the key components to your argument that i really just cant seem to get.

1. You are on your cleric, it drops for you, you loot it, non-greed.
2. It drops for barbarian, he puts it up for roll, cleric rolls on it as well as casters, you consider this greed.

The benefit from item is no different whether it drops for you on your cleric, or whether someone else on their cleric rolls on it. Correct me if i am wrong in this assessment, benefit is equal.

How can one act be greed and the other not? Either they both are or they both arent, when you are weighing up overall benefit of item, not whether it will just benefit someone.

If all you are focussed on is the archmagi aspect, which i believe you have mentioned many times, then this can be applied to every single class that has a blue bar, rangers, pallies, bards etc. EVERY single one of them has spell pts and therefore could benefit from spell pt boost as per your thoughts. Because after all you said, that the reasoning is that your cleric will benefit from the spell pts.

The reason i keep listing 25 sps is because the ring of thelis from the hound is Wiz VII, which is 175 spell pts and archmagi is 200, therefore overall increase is only 25. I say this because i have the ring on my cleric.

My point is thus, as it has been over and over, One type of class, ie arcane casters, get MOST OVERALL benefit from item.

I find it a bit of pot and kettle if you say on one hand that you loot it cos your cleric can benefit from it, but on the other hand if a cleric rolls on it then they are greedy, cos after THEY can benefit from it too. Do you see where your argument really falls down there? Its one of the other, its not a case of one side for one situation and totally another for other situation.

Why do you consider it greed for a cleric to roll on it, but not to loot it if it falls for them? Would you consider another blue bar toon looting it greedy, ie ranger, pally?

If you do, why do you, after all they can benefit from it too cos they have spell pts.

ONLY arcanes have cold spells, therefore the only class/group that would overall benefit the most is arcane casters. Correct me if i am wrong here, note i said OVERALL benefit, not just benefit.

Using the just benefit idea, anyone with sp pts should feel free to loot it or roll on it, because after all if looting it is ok, then rolling should be too. Just using the words you said to describe the situation.

Whilst we dont agree, your reasoning is flawed, because in both situations whilst i agree they can benefit from it, looting is no different to rolling, benefit remains the same.

Do i think a cleric is greedy looting the item rather than offering to an arcane, yes i do, becuase i work on a principle of overall benefit of items, but thats just me. I dont expect everyone to use the same principles, but by the same token i have an opinion on such things and as such will express said opinion.

Perhaps you may wish to revisit your posts and read thru what you have written regarding looting v rolling and maybe then you will understand what im meaning and how silly something like that would be perceived by others, as they are contradictory to each other.

[Aranticus]

snip

yes your cleric has hound ring, so to you its a +25 sp gain. when i got mine, its a +50 sp gain coz i only have lorriks

ranger or pally using bracers would mean sacrificing their ac item for it. sure they buff then switch it out but most do not and hence benefit less. bards with bracers, just as useful as clerics

as for the rolling is greedy, looting is not. there is a difference. if you are rolling, the item is not yours to begin with. like what another poster said, selling it for plat benefits the player but by offering it up, it means the player want others to have it as they benefit more. if i do not get the most benefit out of it and by rolling on it, i feel that i'm not appreciating the player's kind intention

if the loot drops for me, it has my name. if i can use it, i keep it and use it. if i cant i offer it up. there is no one for me to not appreciate the kind intention. if the other players expect it to be given up for roll, then they should look at themselves. no one should expect others to give up their loot. the loot system was changed so that each one has control of what they do with their loot and not to be under the thrall of the raid leader

anyways i tire of explaining myself over and over again. i respect that when loot drops for someone, it is his/hers. if they keep it, give to guildie or which ever rule the raid is created with, i abide by that decision. i wont sulk if they dun offer it up. if they offer it, its a bonus, if i have little use, i respect that kindness and will not deprive someone else who can use it better than me by rolling on it :)

[Desteria]

If I, as a pure Sorcerer, pulled a +3 str tome out of the reaver chest, would all of you tanks on argo hate me forever if I looted and ate it?

Just wondering :)

I have an 8 base Str and really don't like being helpless. The reason I an asking this and not settling for a +2 tome is because I also don't like being encumbered or overweight, and every point in Str helps your weight load.

meh at this point the only +3 tome my sorc needs is +3 str sooo i know I'd be looting it purty fast my self.... now woudl i roll on one up for it in a group pug or guildies or other wise nope, but my own loot ya I'd eat it.

[Uska]

Gave my fair share of tomes up for roll, even madstone boots on my WF Warchanter. Why? I've always been a need over greed type of guy. It benefits me because a party member can use it better, that simple.

Now what happened on the last +3 Wisdom tome i pulled on my ranger? pffft he could use the 20 wisdom but hey clerics could use the +1/+2 DC on spells and more sp, so i put it up for roll, then a fighter rolls for the wisdom tome, i tell em "Sorry man but only clerics can roll on this tome, if you want one so bad do the same as me, pray for a good 20th/40th end reward".

About blacklisting in Argo i don't know, we share names and give it a second thought when they apply on the lfm.

Oh and btw just a funny thread i think people should read.

Click me (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170933)



Now the guy in the link was wrong pulling it for trade bait isnt so bad but not reading the item and seeing that is bound is. Yah pull your own tome in a raid if it can help your character but if not let someone else use it.

[kpax]

so i was on lastnight playing and having fun as usual, (and thinking about this post) when i kept looking at the lfms, what do all you "need before greed" and "server first" guys think of "experienced players only" or "no noobs" cause that would seem to me like the complete oposite of your argument???? please explain

[Newtons_Apple]

I don't know about any "blacklist" that people are getting worked up over. If there's one, I haven't seen it.

I will speak personally though.

I'd rather be in a group full of people that openly share their items that drop (so that if they're not really going to get much use out of it, they give it to someone who can), rather than in a group that believes that anything that drops for them, no matter what it is, is useful in some fashion and so they'll take it (which I believe a caster who takes a +3 strength tome because he has an 8 str is doing - encumbrance is just an excuse, if they cared about it, they would've done something about it up until that point).

If someone has the second attitude, I don't put them on a list, and I don't share their name with others telling people not to group with that person. I do try and remember the person so I can avoid grouping with them again. I'm usually not too successful, in fact, there's only 1 person that has pulled a stunt with loot that I try to avoid grouping with. Most I usually forget. But if it is their right to take anything and everything, it is my right to avoid grouping with them.

You're completely and utterly wrong on every and all points, sir. I have spoken.

[Magi]

so i was on lastnight playing and having fun as usual, (and thinking about this post) when i kept looking at the lfms, what do all you "need before greed" and "server first" guys think of "experienced players only" or "no noobs" cause that would seem to me like the complete oposite of your argument???? please explain

I can say as one of the bigger raiders in one of the largest groups on this server that we NEVER put that in an lfm. I know who does and I really have nothing to say about that here. If anything you'll see something like fast run or if we are running without a full party you'll see "be self Sufficient". But thats about it. I know I have personally, and recently, taken noobs through VoD and other raids on their first runs as clerics and we havent failed yet.

[nbhs275]

If you were the only sorc in there and my barbarian pulled a +3 CHA tome, you'd get it OP.

If you ate a +3 STR tome on an 8 STR Sorc, yeah...Id pretty much put you on my list.

Like Cleavon said, server first.

Ive an 8 STR sorc, Ive yet to become encumbered, hell I dont think Ive used my last backpack slot, so poor excuse for greed there.

Thats as far as Im gonna go with this discussion.

exactly.

If you make an 8 str sorc to begin with, its your own fault and to really take such a rare item is a real ***** of a thing to do, considering your already first in line for most people if a cha tome falls.

As far as con goes, anyone can use con equally. Go for it. But to take a str or dex on a low str, low dex caster or cleric is just being greedy for the sake of it.

[nbhs275]

You're completely and utterly wrong on every and all points, sir. I have spoken.

oh no! he said your wrong, without any explaination, and he has spoken! ohh woe is you!

[HeavenlyCloud]

oh no! he said your wrong, without any explaination, and he has spoken! ohh woe is you!

;) I'm sure you know but just to make sure :D thats a joke :p.

[nbhs275]

One the biggest things that gives me a hell of a chuckle, is all the tools around that have in the bio,

2 x xxxxxx
2 x xxxxxx
xxxxxx
xxxxx


where xxxxx = raid loot.

Does anyone really care of give a flying monkey **** that they have 2 belts of whatever or 2 rings of something, not really. Seriously do they think it makes them doubly uber having 2 of them? Nope it makes them look like selfish little prats that they looted a second 1 AND then put it in their bio. If no one else wants it, sure loot it, sell it, but geazus, give us a break, why put any of that **** in your bio, i guess they didnt get toys as a kid :)


Actually, you would understand if you where one of the people who used to solo/shortman the raids. When there is 2 items dropping, and only 1-3 people there you tended to accumlate alot of doubles, and I kept a running list just so i knew what i had. There are also some items that multiples of are an asset, such as jerky, seals, choasblades, or madstone boots. I'll give you an example. My ranger is up to ten pairs of madstone boots, simply from dumb luck. Got a pair each of his first 3 runs either from winning a roll, or a buddy handing it over, and the next 5 pairs dropped as my loot. The other 2 are my 20th and 40th rewards, as i have so far seen zero +3 tomes from about ten 20th end reward lists in reaver.

[beelzebaba]

I saw a ranger with 3 levels of pally eat a +3 cha tome because it would help his saves by 1 when i was on my sorcerer. I wanted to say something but the loot was in his name.

It is his right to take it even if i could have used it more. Yeah i hoped he would put it for roll but it isnt anyones right to tell a person what helps them or not, or what to do with their loot.

If it were up for roll by someone else and he rolled i would have said something then, but it wasnt.

people do not do raids so they can give up their loot. was this person greedy, probably. was he wrong, possibly. Nevertheless, it is his to do with as he likes regardless of popular opinion.

IMO i believe the sorc in the OP has a right to eat the str tome if it falls under his name. maybe he doesnt want to wear a str item. maybe he doesnt want to have to restore over and over.
Its his tome and if he wants to eat it then he can. There isnt so much difference in it as someone like a cleric puttting up fighter shield for roll and having a caster win the roll and then CHOOSING not to pass it to that caster because its his loot and he will pass it to whoever he would like, probably someone he deems could use it more.

[seldarin]

As per a lot of posts, yes whatever loot falls under a persons name is theirs to do with as they will. I for one would never tell someone what they should do with THEIR loot, its theirs, they can pick the tome up and wipe their ass with the pages for all i care.

To use the excuse however of, "i dont want to be encumbered", well maybe shouldve started with 10 str instead of 8. Additionally, what does a +3 give you that a +2 doesnt? Not a whole lot, and to be honest, add in a +6 item, which btw i think are easier to come by than a +3 str tome, you have 14 Str, do you really get that encumbered with 14 str?

When you are hit with RoE, dont matter if have 50 str, it still hits you a bit, and i dont really think that a +3 tome on an 8 str toon is really gonna make you suddenly uber.

That being said, many ppl have certain ideas on what you should or shouldnt do, so do with your loot whatever you want to, however dont whine and moan when next time round someone eats that +3 cha tome that you desperately wanted/needed, or when ppl start declining you from groups. I have seen it happen, some ppl are that petty. Bit of the what goes around comes around routine.

[seldarin]

Actually, you would understand if you where one of the people who used to solo/shortman the raids. When there is 2 items dropping, and only 1-3 people there you tended to accumlate alot of doubles, and I kept a running list just so i knew what i had. There are also some items that multiples of are an asset, such as jerky, seals, choasblades, or madstone boots. I'll give you an example. My ranger is up to ten pairs of madstone boots, simply from dumb luck. Got a pair each of his first 3 runs either from winning a roll, or a buddy handing it over, and the next 5 pairs dropped as my loot. The other 2 are my 20th and 40th rewards, as i have so far seen zero +3 tomes from about ten 20th end reward lists in reaver.

I did use to shortman raids at times, however never accumulated raid loot, never really had the need for it, or was never on a toon that could benefit from whatever dropped.

Lets be honest though, would you seriously carry 2 napkins on a character? One to wear and the other to wipe the sweat of your brow?

Thats the sort of thing im talking about, not 10 pairs of madstone boots, which is prolly overkill anyway.

There are a lot of ppl around that will list every single piece of raid loot they possess and at the bottom have a total listed. That isnt keeping track of something, that is the "im more uber than you cos i gots more raid loot" mentality in action. And that is what i was referring to, not those that need to keep track of something.

Of course you could always use a quickly generated spreadsheet for the same purpose.

[beelzebaba]

love riling the ppl

[seldarin]

ranger or pally using bracers would mean sacrificing their ac item for it. sure they buff then switch it out but most do not and hence benefit less.

Your argument was that clerics benefit from it, not who benefits less, mine was who overall benefits more, so sorry, try again, no difference between cleric, bard, ranger or pally looting it, all fit into same category, all get same benefit, irrespective of build. Your argument was that cleric benefits from spell pts, so taking that point, EVERY caster class and by that i mean anyone with a blue bar, benefits. You didnt talk about less benefit etc, you specifically stated benefit.

bards with bracers, just as useful as clerics

as for the rolling is greedy, looting is not. there is a difference.

No difference at all, you either have a need for it or you dont. Your example was that cleric benefits from it, so therefore, if cleric benefits from it by looting it when its theirs, then cleric will benefit from it when its put up for roll too. Same ideal, so either both are greedy or both are not, no in betweens based on what you initially presented as your case.

if you are rolling, the item is not yours to begin with.

Shouldnt matter if its your item or not, IF you can benefit from it, as you said in your posts, then why shouldnt they roll on it? After all your example was all about benefitting from it, not who would benefit most. That is to say, that was your example as far as looting it, but then you swiftly changed tact when it came to the rolling on items side of things.


like what another poster said, selling it for plat benefits the player but by offering it up, it means the player want others to have it as they benefit more.

if i do not get the most benefit out of it and by rolling on it, i feel that i'm not appreciating the player's kind intention

if the loot drops for me, it has my name. if i can use it, i keep it and use it.

I wasnt disputing your right to your own loot, not by any stroke of the imagination. What i was calling into question was which class benefits MORE from an item, which was the basis of my posting, which i know you understood. Your counter to that was that in the case of YOU pulling it, then you take it cos you can benefit from it, but if someone of same class rolled on it when it was offered up, then they were greedy cos another class could benefit MORE from it. You applied 2 different rules to the same thing. Either it benefits more or it doesnt, and if its greedy in the situation of rolling on it cos it would benefit MORE, then same would apply for looting something that would benefit another MORE, that is of course applying your methodology on benefits.


if i cant i offer it up. there is no one for me to not appreciate the kind intention. if the other players expect it to be given up for roll, then they should look at themselves. no one should expect others to give up their loot. the loot system was changed so that each one has control of what they do with their loot and not to be under the thrall of the raid leader

I never advocate ppl demanding others handing over loot, whatever they do with their loot, is entirely their choice. That being said, i personally believe in an overall benefit system and that is how i do my loot, that is my choice and i dont expect the same from others, its just what i do. To add to that point however, think on this for a minute, how many times have you expressed something like, "is that all the damage you are doing with that spell", and dont tell me you never have, cos im quite sure you wouldve said it at least once. Does the statement "one trick pony" ring any bells there? When you say something like that, would you ever have pause to thing, hmmmmmm, MAYBE IF i had offered such and such to the arcane instead of taking it for my minor benefit, then maybe they wouldve done more damage and made things go quicker? Just food for thought perhaps.


anyways i tire of explaining myself over and over again. i respect that when loot drops for someone, it is his/hers. if they keep it, give to guildie or which ever rule the raid is created with, i abide by that decision. i wont sulk if they dun offer it up. if they offer it, its a bonus, if i have little use, i respect that kindness and will not deprive someone else who can use it better than me by rolling on it :)

You didnt have to explain anything to me at all, i have my views and opinions on things, as does everyone. Your loot, do whatever you want with it, but as i said, dont bemoan the fact of something going wrong, cos it might just be the case, as pointed out in anothers post of three clerics rolling on the same item as the caster and the caster missing out. Who wouldve benefitted most, the sorc, but then again, wasnt about most benefit was it, just benefit period :)

[bandyman1]

I saw a ranger with 3 levels of pally eat a +3 cha tome because it would help his saves by 1 when i was on my sorcerer. I wanted to say something but the loot was in his name.

It is his right to take it even if i could have used it more. Yeah i hoped he would put it for roll but it isnt anyones right to tell a person what helps them or not, or what to do with their loot.

If it were up for roll by someone else and he rolled i would have said something then, but it wasnt.

people do not do raids so they can give up their loot. was this person greedy, probably. was he wrong, possibly. Nevertheless, it is his to do with as he likes regardless of popular opinion.

IMO i believe the sorc in the OP has a right to eat the str tome if it falls under his name. maybe he doesnt want to wear a str item. maybe he doesnt want to have to restore over and over.
Its his tome and if he wants to eat it then he can. There isnt so much difference in it as someone like a cleric puttting up fighter shield for roll and having a caster win the roll and then CHOOSING not to pass it to that caster because its his loot and he will pass it to whoever he would like, probably someone he deems could use it more.


Here's the thing though Baba;

No one's saying that he doesn't have the right to eat the Str. tome. You're all correct; It's his loot. It fell with his name beside it. He has EVERY right to take it for himself if he wants to.

However, when you're in a group here, it's a social setting. And just as in every other social setting, you're not the only one with rights, and your actions can and do carry consequences.

The OP has the right to loot and eat the tome.

And his group mates have the right to never group with that individual again, and to pass the story on to their guildies, friends, and channel mates.

The end.

[toughguyjoe]

can we go back to the static loot drops of two per chest now?

[beelzebaba]

yep , i totally agree that's what would happen, but im not sure i would agree with all the blacklisting either.

I admit i keep a personal memory log of ppl i wouldnt play with for one reason or another, but passing that off as fact to other players leaves too much room for personal agendas being promoted this way. I guess that's another thread though.

I also pass along loot to those that i feel need it more and have only regretted taking 1 piece of loot i should have passed, long ago. and only regretted passing 1 piece of loot i should have kept, also long ago. unfortunatly most dont see it this way and loot anything that drops for them.

I guess thats why its always best to run in guild, or whatever static groups ppl do run n because it assures you to some degree this happening. I just feel for all the clerics who did not get titan belt on their 20th runs lol

[Uska]

I will say I have only pulled one +3 tome in the reaver and I let a wizzie have it later was in another quest with same wizzie and discovered he was a jerk ahh well the tome realy wouldnt have help my cleric much and it didnt help that wizard a bit either he had eatten one before and claimed that the thought they would stack, me I think he just wanted to deny it to anyone else. I found this from someone else that had ran with him. luckly I havent seen in on in a while.

[Ganak]

I say this would be bad form in a raid. Make due with a +2. Unbound +3 tomes will be hear before we know it.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Wow, this topic just keeps going and going and yet we never get people to agree.

Before long we are going to have to change a popular saying from:

"Never discuss politics or religion."

to

"Never discuss politics, religion, or raid loot."


I find it somewhat hilarious to see people talking about who needs the tome "more".
If I am a tank/melee class, I have my strength maxed out. I have a +2 tome that
I have either found or bought from the AH asap! If I take a +3 tome I will take my STR
from a 30 to 31 or 31 to 32. I will get exactly one point of benefit from it and it may
increase my to hit by +1 or not..... If one of the other classes take it, they will get
a +1 to a +3 benefit from it.

+3 tomes are not about NEED. They are about MAXIMIZING or TWINKING your
character out. Getting that last +1 to max you out and make you super uber as
opposed to just uber.

People complete quests all through the game and don't feel entitled to your loot except
when it is in a raid. Then they think they are entitled to anything that you get that
fits a preconcieved idea of what classes should get what...


Don't get me wrong, I give away most raid loot to classes that I feel would benefit
more than myself. However, I do not expect anyone give up their loot for me and
would not harbor any ill feelings to anyone that used a tome or took an item that I
could use more.



About the whole 'black list' thing:

If you are so powerful that blacklisting me or anyone else makes any difference at all,
then you are powerful enough to NOT be squabling over ANY raid loot. Do you really
think that blacklisting anyone will even cause a hiccup in their gaming life? I have
managed to do every quest but one in the game by not partying with 95% or better
of either server that I play on. Actually, I have completed every quest on Argo with
just the same 5-10 people. Blacklisting may make you feel better, but it means nothing
in the bigger scheme of things.

Actually, if you travel with the guy that just ate the +3 str tome then you know that
next time he CAN'T benefit from it and stands a better chance of giving it away. You
should be looking to group with this guy instead of blacklisting him.



I have ZERO raid loot and ZERO +3 tomes on ANY of my 18 characters on either
server. This has stopped me from doing absolutely nothing! The only raid loot that
matters it 20th, 40th, etc... runs and Shroud Ingredients all others are just bonus
loot and belong to whomever was lucky enough to get them in their chests.



Just my thoughts and I know they mean almost nothing since I am not grouping with
over 95% of you anyway. Just the same, they are my thoughts.


-Zenixx
qft. all of it. esp bold and underlined, and esp esp red bold underlined.

[Erekose]

After persevering with need b4 greed in guild runs which works really well 99.9% of the time, then doing PuG raids and being continually ****ed over I have decided to change my expectations and game play.

a) If in an all guild run, then need b4 greed, if random PuG in guild group then they can go **** themselves unless I know them then they can roll, otherwise I will just pull raid loot and sell to vendor.

b) If in pure PuG raid, My loot rules apply. It may go up for roll or If feel nice or if I know someone in the group then I may just give the item to someone. I really don't care anymore.

:)

[Melthus]

Why not grab a +3 str tome as a 20th raid reward? Then nobody else can see you loot and eat it to be able to ridicule you for it.

[Uska]

Why not grab a +3 str tome as a 20th raid reward? Then nobody else can see you loot and eat it to be able to ridicule you for it.

I have yet to see a tome as 20th reward in reaver myself and have 6 20's

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Why not grab a +3 str tome as a 20th raid reward? Then nobody else can see you loot and eat it to be able to ridicule you for it.

That's hardly a guarentee. The one you pull during a raid however is.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

can we go back to the static loot drops of two per chest now?

Good lord no, then I'll have to stop running raids again.

[seldarin]

Bah, Bros before hoes :)

[toughguyjoe]

Good lord no, then I'll have to stop running raids again.


you can't finish a raid shortman?

shoot me a tell and i'll take on a magical ride where we do dragon DQ and titan all with minimal staffing.

Yes the newer players can do it!

just gotta zig when you're supposed to zig, and zag when you're supposed to zag.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

you can't finish a raid shortman?

Yes, I can and have. That's not the point. Except in raids in this game loot is asigned to individuals. That's a good thing. I saw more than one example in the old system where the guy with the star did that I found rather dista****l. That's more power than I want to give to one guy just because he started the party. Raids, like every other part of this game, should assign loot to the individual.

[transtemporal]

If I, as a pure Sorcerer, pulled a +3 str tome out of the reaver chest, would all of you tanks on argo hate me forever if I looted and ate it?

Personally I keep a list of the tomes my toons will definitely eat, definitely don't eat and probably eat. If its don't eat, I'll offer it up. If its probably eat, its a stat that i've put some investment in but isn't a primary focus; e.g. cha on my barb for intimidate. In this case, unless its a guild run or I really like the group, I'll eat it.

To each his own though. If you pull it, you can eat it.

[Thadion]

Let me start by saying I am new to DDO
Been playingPnP for about 26 years.
Never done a raid yet, but i look forward to it.

I believe some raid groups make it clear before the raid starts how loot will be handled, or did i hear wrong?

Barring that, if i pulled a +3 str on my sorc. and their was a melee in the group that didn't have one yet. i've offer it up....BUT if he demanded it from me before i even offered it (and from what i am hearing this is common). i think i would sit down and slowly eat it rite in front of him like a kid with icecream.
offering up loot to those that can use it more is in the end a courtisy. demanding loot that drops for someone else is just plain rude. need or no need does not mean you are entitled to something that is not yours. if a man gives a beggar a dollar that is nice. but if the beggar makes the man give him a dollar it is called theft.

But that is only my opinion.

[Mhykke]

Let me start by saying I am new to DDO
Been playingPnP for about 26 years.
Never done a raid yet, but i look forward to it.

I believe some raid groups make it clear before the raid starts how loot will be handled, or did i hear wrong?

Barring that, if i pulled a +3 str on my sorc. and their was a melee in the group that didn't have one yet. i've offer it up....BUT if he demanded it from me before i even offered it (and from what i am hearing this is common). i think i would sit down and slowly eat it rite infront of him like a kid with icecream.
offering up loot to those that can use it more is in the end a courtisy. demanding loot that drops for someone else is just plain rude. need or no need does not mean you are entitled to something that is not yours. if a man gives a beggar a dollar that is nice. but if the beggar makes the man give him a dollar it is called theft.

But that is only my opinion.

You're correct nobody should demand anyone's loot.

I personally haven't seen anyone demand anything. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I haven't seen it, and I've done my share of raiding.

[HeavenlyCloud]

You're correct nobody should demand anyone's loot.

I personally haven't seen anyone demand anything. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I haven't seen it, and I've done my share of raiding.

He is talking about raiding in game Mhyke.

[Newtons_Apple]

There may be a fine line between demanding to get a +3 STR tome and asking if it will be put up for roll; or at least we may be talking about perception here.

The caster who gets the tome feels inundated by requests to put the item up for roll, while the tanks who want it put up for roll are desperate since they've run the raid 60 times with no luck. And when desperation meets exasperation, drama ensues....

To answer the OP's question, there are many who would consider your decision to keep the tome beyond greedy. +6 STR items are not hard to come by- casters typically have a spare slot they can use for gloves, belts, bracers or even a ring. (If you need one, I'd be happy to send you one. Except for a ring though. 8D)

There are probably casters out there who have taken the madstone shield so they could block better. I'm sure there are tanks who have taken the napkin so they could boost intel.

And I've seen a character take 2 shards of power when I needed one. (This person rolled on a shard AFTER getting one in his chest.) When I asked why he rolled on it, his tell back was "Because I needed it, bro."

My point is greed is fairly rampant in this game. And while there is no official blacklist, people do talk. Reputations, deserved or not, have a way of catching up to people- I've seen it time and again. So be careful OP. This is not a threat btw - I have no wish to see players be ostracized. But this game, being a social one, tends to foster pack mentalities and cliques.

[Mhykke]

And while there is no official blacklist

Not true....You haven't seen it? Here it is:

Argo Blacklist
--------------
Elmo

The end.



:D

[alchilito]

There may be a fine line between demanding to get a +3 STR tome and asking if it will be put up for roll; or at least we may be talking about perception here.

The caster who gets the tome feels inundated by requests to put the item up for roll, while the tanks who want it put up for roll are desperate since they've run the raid 60 times with no luck. And when desperation meets exasperation, drama ensues....

To answer the OP's question, there are many who would consider your decision to keep the tome beyond greedy. +6 STR items are not hard to come by- casters typically have a spare slot they can use for gloves, belts, bracers or even a ring. (If you need one, I'd be happy to send you one. Except for a ring though. 8D)

There are probably casters out there who have taken the madstone shield so they could block better. I'm sure there are tanks who have taken the napkin so they could boost intel.

And I've seen a character take 2 shards of power when I needed one. (This person rolled on a shard AFTER getting one in his chest.) When I asked why he rolled on it, his tell back was "Because I needed it, bro."

My point is greed is fairly rampant in this game. And while there is no official blacklist, people do talk. Reputations, deserved or not, have a way of catching up to people- I've seen it time and again. So be careful OP. This is not a threat btw - I have no wish to see players be ostracized. But this game, being a social one, tends to foster pack mentalities and cliques.

Nice post man.

/signed

[transtemporal]

And I've seen a character take 2 shards of power when I needed one. (This person rolled on a shard AFTER getting one in his chest.) When I asked why he rolled on it, his tell back was "Because I needed it, bro."

Why does pulling one shard invalidate his roll for a second shard? Its perfectly reasonable to say he needed two shards (who doesn't?). If he said he needed one shard then changed his mind and said he needed two shards, then ok, hes probably being greedy but he probably didn't so you'll never know. Is it unfair? Of course it is! But so is other people pulling bloodstones on my loot runs! :)

[Pain_Giving_Inmate]

But so is other people pulling bloodstones on my loot runs! :)

Whaaaaat?? You pulled one at the same time ;-) How is that unfair?

[transtemporal]

Whaaaaat?? You pulled one at the same time ;-) How is that unfair?

Its only fair if I pull both. Somehow. :)

[sirgog]

Not on Argo, but I'd be OK with it. Not fine, but OK.


I can definitely understand hating the 8 Str - I put a 12 Str into my Sorc for this very reason and have never regretted it.

[Newtons_Apple]

Not true....You haven't seen it? Here it is:

Argo Blacklist
--------------
Elmo

The end.



:D

Obviously we'll need to start a black-list for the black-listers.



:P

[Newtons_Apple]

Why does pulling one shard invalidate his roll for a second shard? Its perfectly reasonable to say he needed two shards (who doesn't?). If he said he needed one shard then changed his mind and said he needed two shards, then ok, hes probably being greedy but he probably didn't so you'll never know. Is it unfair? Of course it is! But so is other people pulling bloodstones on my loot runs! :)

I didn't say it invalidated it- I typed it to emphasize my point on greed. And I learned a long time ago life is unfair.

[Brutous]

I really wouldn't give a rat's @$$ I would hand you a khopesh and a Shield and point you to the nearest kobold to practice on.

[transtemporal]

I didn't say it invalidated it- I typed it to emphasize my point on greed. And I learned a long time ago life is unfair.

Sorry Newton, I didn't mean for that to come off as an attack, this is just a particular area where I've seen the need before greed principle get a bit wobbly. Its a separate issue though so maybe I'll post a thread about it.

[unionyes]

Raid Loot will always be a bone of contention. Thats why it makes sense to discuss or have the rules regarding raid loot clarified up front. Of course there is no way to enforce it, but it makes a selfish move that much more obvious.

Yes, its your loot. Yes, you get to decide what to do with it. I, in turn, get to decide what I think of you, which will of course influence my decision to run with you in the future, or to allow you to roll on something that I happen to pull, that time or at some future time.

So, while I may not say anything, either at the time or in the forums the next day while I am at work and trying not to get anything productive done, I may do some or all of the following.

1. Say no thanks to running with you again. Reserved for people who continually and severely **** me off. Not as a punishment for you, per se, but more because I don't want the hassle.

2. Put my own raid loot up for a roll that you are excluded from. Hey, if YOU get to decide what you do with your own loot, so do I. Hard for you to say that I am not being fair at this point.

3. If I see you rolling against someone else for something, put my own name in the hat even if I don't need the item. If I should win it, I will give it to the other person, effectively giving you a one in three chance of getting it and the other person two in three odds. Consider it instant Karma.

4. All those little whatevers that drop in regular chests that people pass on to others as a matter of course? Like that wand that the fighter pulls, or the manna pot that the rogue gets? I will keep it and sell it rather than give it to you, or offer to sell it to you for its listed value. Petty? Maybe. But hey, you scooped something that you needed a little bit and someone else needed a lot more urgently on the basis that it was yours. Me too. Just playing by your rules.

That being said, I can totally understand why a sorc would want more strength. I got me a bull strength clickie that I use when I need it. Granted, its not a +3 str tome, but it does the job. When I level up a little more I am sure I will pull a +4, 5, or even 6 Str item that I can use, which will give me 12, 13, or 14 Str respectively, more than enough for me since I mostly carry scrolls, wands, and robes around and they are light.

Maybe its my Canadian roots talking, but I just don't understand why someone would grab something that they don't really need all that much instead of giving it to someone who really needs it.

[Drekisen]

***edit***

For anyone who actually saw what I wrote in regard to this thread, I still think what I said was quite appropriate, but after a little more thought about this thread, the OP was probably someone who is bored and intentionally started this to start a flame thread and get easily swayed people into trouble.

Congratz on ur +3 tome if it actually even happened, it was urs, end of story.

As far as talking of this any further, well all it turns into is a bunch of apes seeing who can pound thier chest the hardest.


<-----throws out a few bananas and hopes nobody slips.

Hope this thread keeps many warm for the last few days of winter.

[mp1]

I pulled the Head of Fortune in Reaver, thought my cleric didn't need it so I put it up for rolls. Now I changed my gears around and it turns out that I do need the Head and it never drops *cry*. Why, why would I give my fortune away? :(