It's a team game, remember.

[Bracosius]

Why are people on the forums asking for a nerf to thier fellow players on a daily basis?

I just don't get it. If I am in a group I want every member to be as powerful as possible. I don't care if I lead the kill count, I don't care if my armor doesn't look the coolest, I don't care if I can't crit for 800. But apparently many of you are jealous of those who do.

And the canned response is "I am not jealous, it is a game balance issue and I am trying to help the game." I call poppycock.

A game balance issue occurs when one player can't compete with another for reason xyz. Don't you realize we are not competing with each other? We are all in groups on the same team. The more powerful your teammate is the better it is for you. Unless of course your the jealous type, then you may want to come and complain in the forums.

Here is a FAQ to those responding to save me some time:


1. But a group wouldn't let me in because I don't have a WOP.

That group sucks and you would have failed anyway if the leader thinks wops are necessary, be happy you avoided that group.


2. I have a WOP and always lead the kill count, I am not jealous and still think every class needs to be nerfed.

These people are still always going to lead the kill count, they will have the best gear and the best build. They want everyone nerfed because they know something you don't, they will always be more powerful.


3. Turbine makes the game more difficult because of the imbalance of xyz.

It's a game, it will never be perfectly balanced. If a certain build/class is the best, play it. If a weapon is the best, use it. If you don't have it, play more. The people who play the most have the best items. Don't play 30% of the time they do and expect to have the same items.


4. It doesn't follow the pen and paper DnD rules.

I started with first edition way back when, and the most important rule was to have fun. The DM had the freedom to make up anything he wanted to make the game entertaining. Turbine is our DM, let them make it entertainig.


5. I can't find a group because I don't have build xyz and wepon xyz.

It's not your build or your weapons, it's you. People don't like you, that's why you can't find a group. Some of the best players in this game have started some of the strangest builds. They always find groups because no matter what they play they are good and an asset to any party.


6. Your just posting this because your bitter that they changed the paladin capstone.

True, you get a gold star. It sickens me that people whining actually convinced a dev to weaken a class.


7. Brac your wrong because I said so and I post on the forums everyday.

Epic fail, log off life.

[Return_To_Forever]

You goin to the conflux pre-release this saturday? set looks fun!

[Angelus_dead]

I just don't get it. If I am in a group I want every member to be as powerful as possible.
If I am in a group, I want any mob seeing our bard to roll a Fortitude save (DC = Perform +d20) or turn into a platinum statue, which gives you 1d100 plat each time you damage it in melee.


A game balance issue occurs when one player can't compete with another for reason xyz. Don't you realize we are not competing with each other?
Wrong. Incredibly wrong.

I assume I don't need to spend any time explaining why that's wrong...

[Rog]

[

But a group wouldn't let me in because I don't have a WOP.

That group sucks and you would have failed anyway if the leader thinks wops are necessary, be happy you avoided that group.


I have a WOP and always lead the kill count, I am not jealous and still think every class needs to be nerfed.

These people are still always going to lead the kill count, they will have the best gear and the best build. They want everyone nerfed because they know something you don't, they will always be more powerful.




I can't find a group because I don't have build xyz and wepon xyz.

It's not your build or your weapons, it's you. People don't like you, that's why you can't find a group. Some of the best players in this game have started some of the strangest builds. They always find groups because no matter what they play they are good and an asset to any party.



Brac your wrong because I said so and I post on the forums everyday.

Epic fail, log off life.[/QUOTE]

you my friend are preaching to the choir
CAN WE GET A AMEN BROTHER COME ON ALL WE NEED IS A AMEN
THANK GOD O MIGHTLY FOR BLESSING WITH THIS WISDOM FROM ARE ELDERS

lunarsong khyber

[Gunga]

Nice, Brac. Great post, maybe even post of the week.

Although, I'd be able to play more with my team if my team showed up.

Cough, Warhammer. Cough.

Just saying.

[Denssor]

I disagree with just about all of it.


A game balance issue occurs when one player can't compete with another for reason xyz. Don't you realize we are not competing with each other?

Ever hear of PvP?

I have a WOP and always lead the kill count, I am not jealous and still think every class needs to be nerfed.

Of course your not jealous, you have the most powerful weapon in the game.

Turbine makes the game more difficult because of the imbalance of xyz.

It's a game, it will never be perfectly balanced. If a certain build/class is the best, play it.

I should be able to play any class that I want and like to play. Not because it is more powerful than another, but becuase it is fun. All classes should have the same number of pro's and con's as the next class. Damage dealt = damage taken is good place to start balance with melee classes.


I can't find a group because I don't have build xyz and wepon xyz.

It's not your build or your weapons, it's you. People don't like you, that's why you can't find a group.

So this explains why LFM's exclude monks, say "You must have a WoP," say "no n00bs," and my favorite, "Must know quest"?

If they never played with me before, how would they know my monk is "gimped" or not? How would they know if I have WoP's or not? How would they know if I'm a so called "n00b"? Or if I know the quest or not?

You don't need to be a certin build or have certin weapons to complete a quest. Anyone who puts that on thier LFM is probably a gimp themselves and needs those certin things to make him/her look good.

[Bracosius]

You goin to the conflux pre-release this saturday? set looks fun!

You know I am. I checked out the spoiler and am looking forward to it. I am also hitting the Chicago Grand Prix, get to dust off those dual lands.


Nice, Brac. Great post, maybe even post of the week.

Although, I'd be able to play more with my team if my team showed up.

Cough, Warhammer. Cough.

Just saying.

Sorry, I will be back when mod 9 hits, gimp pally and all.


I disagree with just about all of it.

Did you read my FAQ #1? I will go back and number them for easier reading.

[Angelus_dead]

I disagree with just about all of it.
PVP is not the explanation for why DDO characters need to be balanced against each other. Indeed, Turbine has admitted to making no effort at all to balance PVP... to test this, get a pure sorc and see how many pure paladins you can kill at once. 30 or 40 isn't difficult, unless the pallies are specially clever.

No, there's really a different reason characters need to be balanced. Characters don't directly compete with each other, so they don't need to be directly balanced against each other. But player characters do compete against the environment and the monsters found in quests. Different characters need a similar ability to contribute towards completing quests, or else it means that some kinds of characters are (at best) a kind of increased difficulty mode, and (at worst) a waste of developer effort.

Because all characters need to be balanced against the environment, it follows that they need to be balanced against each other. That does not mean they need an equal chance to win PVP duels.

[Aesop]

I actually don't ask for too many nerfs over all... there have been a few though (dwarves bothered me since the outset of this Enhancement System rendition Toughness is now more balanced and I'm relatively happy with that... next )

However I think I'll at least respond to some of this.





Here is a FAQ to those responding to save me some time:


But a group wouldn't let me in because I don't have a WOP.

That group sucks and you would have failed anyway if the leader thinks wops are necessary, be happy you avoided that group.

Yep WoP is Powerful... maybe too powerful relative to the rest. I don't want to Nerf WoP though I want to drop certain Stupid HP mobs down a good 20-30%. I also want the other Stat damage combos to be more effective and work closer to PnP... Mobs reduced to 0 in any stat except Con should be paralyzed


I have a WOP and always lead the kill count, I am not jealous and still think every class needs to be nerfed.

These people are still always going to lead the kill count, they will have the best gear and the best build. They want everyone nerfed because they know something you don't, they will always be more powerful.


Who gives a rats ass about WoP I just want all fighting styles to be made viable so that I don't see 10 twf in a party a cleric and a caster... TWF dominates too much and the other styles should be brought up in effectiveness (though not necessarily match)


Turbine makes the game more difficult because of the imbalance of xyz.

It's a game, it will never be perfectly balanced. If a certain build/class is the best, play it. If a weapon is the best, use it. If you don't have it, play more. The people who play the most have the best items. Don't play 30% of the time they do and expect to have the same items.

Items are too powerful. It creates too much of a disparity between the casual player and the hard core player... I'm somewhere in between myself but I still see the problems that this causes. Turbine needs to be more careful about power creep. If new players can't even apporach effectiveness then it isn't fun for either



It doesn't follow the pen and paper DnD rules.

I started with first edition way back when, and the most important rule was to have fun. The DM had the freedom to make up anything he wanted to make the game entertaining. Turbine is our DM, let them make it entertainig.

As much as I'd like it to stay close to PnP I know that there are aspects that we have to change in order to do them better for the MMO environment. This doesn't mean I want Mobs with a million HP or bazookahs... I just want the game to be as well balanced for all player types as it can be... nothing is perfect but we can do better


I can't find a group because I don't have build xyz and wepon xyz.

It's not your build or your weapons, it's you. People don't like you, that's why you can't find a group. Some of the best players in this game have started some of the strangest builds. They always find groups because no matter what they play they are good and an asset to any party.

true to a degree. We do get a lot of mental deficients that require certain builds... but that falls under the first part


Your just posting this because your bitter that they changed the paladin capstone.

True, you get a gold star. It sickens me that people whining actually convinced a dev to weaken a class.

That class is not weakened. The flavor of the class is being perserved better with the current rendition over the original (imo). I didn't ask for the nerf but I thought about it. I believe it was a touch over powered and I think the new ersion is a bit better


Brac your wrong because I said so and I post on the forums everyday.

Epic fail, log off life.

I'll leave that one alone





Aesop

[Fenrisulven6]

Pretty much everything Aesop said, with one addition: when game balance goes off the rails, the only solution is a campaign wipe. If you hate "nerfs", you're going to really enjoy starting over from scratch.

[Denssor]

PVP is not the explanation for why DDO characters need to be balanced against each other.

Never said it was. I just said it was a place where players compete with other players. Not saying Turbine is going to fix anything about PvP either (don't really care if they do or not).

But adding on from what you said, players like to create new ways to make "uber" characters, balancing is trying to allow more than one class to compete in having the best saves, highest DPS, OR highest AC, but not all of them. When one class gets the best of everything, that class just became more powerful than any other class. Therefore, competion is loss from other classes.

[transtemporal]

If I am in a group, I want any mob seeing our bard to roll a Fortitude save (DC = Perform +d20) or turn into a platinum statue, which gives you 1d100 plat each time you damage it in melee.

/signed

That is fair and balanced because groups don't always have a bard in them. :D

[Angelus_dead]

I just don't get it. If I am in a group I want every member to be as powerful as possible. I don't care if I lead the kill count, I don't care if my armor doesn't look the coolest, I don't care if I can't crit for 800.
At the end of the day, it's all about results (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw).

Now we've got God on our side, you know what I'm saying? It's the best thing that ever happened to us (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd5cInmK6LQ).

[Return_To_Forever]

At the end of the day, it's all about results (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw).

Now we've got God on our side, you know what I'm saying? It's the best thing that ever happened to us (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd5cInmK6LQ).



oh man, the angel summoner one is hilarious!

[rnor6084]

As a casual player i for one am thankful for those players who do have the uber builds and equipment. That is of course if they are not jerks about being uber and do not treat others as second class players. Quite frankly they pull my non-uber rear through the quests. No nerfs for anyone please.

Far as PvP goes i dont bother with it so it is a non-issue with me.

[ace_mason]

I redisagree. :D

I disagree with just about all of it.Originally Posted by Bracosius
A game balance issue occurs when one player can't compete with another for reason xyz. Don't you realize we are not competing with each other?

Ever hear of PvP?
Very few peple pvp. You shouldnt balance based off pvp.

I have a WOP and always lead the kill count, I am not jealous and still think every class needs to be nerfed.

Of course your not jealous, you have the most powerful weapon in the game.
And he will still have the most powerful weapons in the game even after they nerf wops.

Turbine makes the game more difficult because of the imbalance of xyz.

It's a game, it will never be perfectly balanced. If a certain build/class is the best, play it.

I should be able to play any class that I want and like to play. Not because it is more powerful than another, but becuase it is fun.
I couldnt agree more with this statement if it is fun play it. If you arent having fun dont play. But dont ***** that your arnet playing it because noone will play with you. Most likely if noone plays with you it is a personality issue. I have run lvl 4 toons through the shroud. And I am not even that nice of a guy.
All classes should have the same number of pro's and con's as the next class. Damage dealt = damage taken is good place to start balance with melee classes.
They do currently. Monks do less damage and take less damage. Barbs do more damage and take more damage. Rangers are somewhat the exception good damage good defense most bang for your buck.

[Impaqt]

Ya know, It just occurred to me....

You can be a Awesome person and get groups all the time... It doesnt matter what weapons ya have or what armor ya have... If your fun to play with, people want you in their group.....

But the only way to get a group if you're a db is to have uber stuff. Some people tolerate db-edness if you have a WoP....

If WoP Gets changed, db's may have a hard time getting groups......

[unionyes]

There are two reasons for asking for nerfs, in my opinion.....and lots of people fall under number 2.

1. The game is unbalanced. There is, actually, an item, skill, or feat that allows some class or type of toon to easily defeat certain quests, mobs, or challenges far too easily or at an inappropriate level. This affects game balance (party vs mobs, not toon vs toon), and in a grand overall sense can damage the game long term as people will repeatedly farm a certain quest using the imbalance. Imagine, if you will, a level 1 ranger with a repeating crossbow of paralyzing banishing smiting. Would skew the quests, and you would see tons of rangers jumping on the wagon.

2. I want you to think that I am sooooo uber that this little advantage is enough for me to pretty much have my way with the game. Example.....a ranger saying we should take away +1 longbows of frost. I do massive dps with a regular crossbow, far more than anyone else in the game. Giving me the extra +1d6 elemental damage makes me virtually God like bwahahahahaha. They are looking for a response along the lines of oh mighty ranger, I need that extra +1d6 damage to survive, so they can come back with you must not be as uber as me because I solo ran tangleroot at level 2 solely because of the extra 1d6 damage. These folks aren't looking for a nerf so much as they are looking to be able to point out how awesome they are without having to name the thread 'Look at how Awesome I am...no really, Look'.

When someone posts a nerf idea that looks to me like a number 2, I just ignore it. To get into a debate with them will just give them a forum to go all uber.

[Snoggy]

Why are people on the forums asking for a nerf to thier fellow players on a daily basis?


Welcome to the internet. It's where people go to argue. Especially gamers.

[Snoggy]

to test this, get a pure sorc and see how many pure paladins you can kill at once. 30 or 40 isn't difficult, unless the pallies are specially clever.

I call shenanigans. Where are you going to find more than ONE pure paladin logged on at any given time? Let alone 30 to 40?

[Zenako]

If I am in a group, I want any mob seeing our bard to roll a Fortitude save (DC = Perform +d20) or turn into a platinum statue, which gives you 1d100 plat each time you damage it in melee.



Nerf alert... it only can be sung ONCE the mobs are fascinated...that should quiet the dissenters, not that it really matters since you get 95% of them anyway the first time. Kinda like the Suggestion song, only now you suggest that instead of having to kill them and THEN loot the chest, they just hand over the goods right now and avoid the messy middle part...:)

[Bracosius]

At the end of the day, it's all about results (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw)

Rolling up Angel Summoner now.



Ya know, It just occurred to me....

You can be a Awesome person and get groups all the time... It doesnt matter what weapons ya have or what armor ya have... If your fun to play with, people want you in their group.....

But the only way to get a group if you're a db is to have uber stuff. Some people tolerate db-edness if you have a WoP....

If WoP Gets changed, db's may have a hard time getting groups......


I call shenanigans. Where are you going to find more than ONE pure paladin logged on at any given time? Let alone 30 to 40?

The amount of genius in this thread brings a small tear to my eye.

[Thrudh]

Why are people on the forums asking for a nerf to thier fellow players on a daily basis?

Because if some builds can get 80 AC and full DPS, then the devs balance encounters for people with 80 AC. This means every other build gets hit 100% of the time even with a 60 AC.

If it's a team game, maybe we should make so everyone can contribute instead of just one "uber" person.


3. Turbine makes the game more difficult because of the imbalance of xyz.

It's a game, it will never be perfectly balanced. If a certain build/class is the best, play it. If a weapon is the best, use it. If you don't have it, play more. The people who play the most have the best items. Don't play 30% of the time they do and expect to have the same items.



So instead of at least trying to balance the game, your solution is for everyone to play the exact same "best" build?

Yeah, nice... That makes for a good game.

The DDO devs have actually done a very good job balancing this game. In most cases, there are no "best" builds. You contribute very well with all classes. We see plenty of fighters, barbarians, rangers, paladins, etc.

However, Ranger/monk splashes are dangerously close to being a "best" class... being so much above the others that everyone will need/want to play them. THAT is what we are trying to avoid. You, on the other hand, think they would be a great game if everyone was a ranger/monk. Very few people would agree with you and the game would die.

Up until the latest mod, w/p weapons were better than DPS, but not ridiculously so... The balance is skewed... They now kill like 5x faster in certain quests... CON damage versus DPS is unbalanced... Do I think it needs to be nerfed? Not yet... It's not all quests, just a few.. I do complain and point out the problem to make sure the devs understand the issue so that Mod 9 quests aren't even more imbalanced.

You on the other hand, think everyone should just switch to TWF wounding weapons. Nice. All other attack forms disappear, and the game gets boring.

We ask for balance so we can maintain choices... This games rocks because there are so many different possible builds out there, and many of them are very viable. Balance is about making sure that remains true.

[Missing_Minds]

I call shenanigans. Where are you going to find more than ONE pure paladin logged on at any given time? Let alone 30 to 40?

Korthos. lvl 1 pali.. hey, its a pure pali. ;)

Sorry, AD, but I had to tease.

But honestly, I know of 1 pure pali right off the top of my head (among the 3 pali players, and one of the other two may be pure as well. can't remember) They exist more than what you realize.

[Zenako]

I've got one, and I know a few others do too.

[Steiner-Davion]

A game balance issue occurs when one player can't compete with another for reason xyz. Don't you realize we are not competing with each other? It is not about competing with each othe. It is about playing a fun game. If the game is balanced and designed in such a way that only peopl who do nothing but play DDO can have fun playing, and by fun I mean not be driven insane by the futility of trying to complete a quest with inadequate attributes, skills, and gear, then we my friend have serious disagreement as to what fun and balanced mean. In otherwords we are competing for fun. You can have fun, but I can't. And what kind of fun will you be having when there is no one left to play DDO with but yourself or when they are forced to close the game down because they only have your subscription left?

Ironically, I'm willing to bet that I'll be playing th game a lot longer then you will be.


We are all in groups on the same team. The more powerful your teammate is the better it is for you. Only in the limited context that you provided in your OP, quoted here.



Unless of course your the jealous type, then you may want to come and complain in the forums. It has nothing ot do with Jealousy my friend. And if you do, then you have some serious insecurity issues to deal with.



Here is a FAQ to those responding to save me some time: The fact that you posted this FAQ, lessons your argument, and strengthens the hypothesis I jsut put forward.

[Bracosius]

Because if some builds can get 80 AC and full DPS, then the devs balance encounters for people with 80 AC. This means every other build gets hit 100% of the time even with a 60 AC.

If it's a team game, maybe we should make so everyone can contribute instead of just one "uber" person.



So instead of at least trying to balance the game, your solution is for everyone to play the exact same "best" build?

Yeah, nice... That makes for a good game.

Yeah, lets read into everything so extreme that it is now rediculous. That should help your argument. I sometimes make statements and assume common sense. I will be more specific for you.

People should play what they find fun. Some people play casters, some melee, some clerics, some have all kinds of characters. The comment is directed to the people that want classes they don't play to be weaker because they feel obsolete with there build choice. If your build is not fun because it is not the most powerful in the game then you should roll up a new character. Your example also only seems to assume that groups will be 100% melee classes. I am betting that even if everyone played the exact same melee build because it was the best, you would probably still have some casters, clerics, and rogues running around.

Regarding the issue of 80 AC and full dps. Your average player will not easily be able to build such a character. And just because it is possible does not mean the dev's build the game around the most powerful character possible. Give them more credit then that. There is a desparity between casual gamers and power gamers. There always will be, there always should be.


It is not about competing with each othe. It is about playing a fun game. If the game is balanced and designed in such a way that only peopl who do nothing but play DDO can have fun playing, and by fun I mean not be driven insane by the futility of trying to complete a quest with inadequate attributes, skills, and gear, then we my friend have serious disagreement as to what fun and balanced mean. In otherwords we are competing for fun. You can have fun, but I can't. And what kind of fun will you be having when there is no one left to play DDO with but yourself or when they are forced to close the game down because they only have your subscription left?

Ironically, I'm willing to bet that I'll be playing th game a lot longer then you will be.

Only in the limited context that you provided in your OP, quoted here.

It has nothing ot do with Jealousy my friend. And if you do, then you have some serious insecurity issues to deal with.

The fact that you posted this FAQ, lessons your argument, and strengthens the hypothesis I jsut put forward.

Why is it that responses seem to assume I am a have? I do not have a ranger/monk, I do not have dual wops, I do not have an AC over 60. I am not argueing in favor of power because I will lose anything, I am argueing in favor of power because it makes the game fun. I like having a dual wop wielding ranger/monk in my group. I like having an 80 AC intimitank. Maybe I am biased because I play a cleric and can usually tell a characters power level by the resources I use.

It doesn't mean the quests can't be completed by a severly underpowered pug, they can. They are just easier and quicker for powergamers.

[Angelus_dead]

People should play what they find fun.
That is true; and it contradicts everything else you said. In case you didn't understand the example, BMX Bandit was not having fun.


Why is it that responses seem to assume I am a have?
Because you wrote the words "I have a WOP".

You intended for them to be read as a hypothetical response from another person, but your formatting and punctuation was pretty garbled, leading some people to have trouble following the intention.

[Gunga]

You can have fun, but I can't.

I deleted your attempts at being clever. Let's just cut to the quick, shall we?

What imbalances do you currently experience in game? In your own words please, sans noncleverness.

[IgorUnchained]

God....great post!

Now I know why it is hard to get into groups...because everyone hates me!
For a while, I had heard that it was because multiclassed toons are gimped, rangers dont have enough DPS, people are NooBs, they dont know their own way, they dont have the right gear/spells, noone can wait for a full party to begin a mission, and half of the LFMs are for high level raids.
I sure am glad I wasted the 10 minutes to read this pap!

Old timers who enjoy the smell of their own flatulence get alot of mileage on these forums.
I sure hope they continue to school the rest of us on all things DDO.

[cpito]

Quite frankly they pull my non-uber rear through the quests. No nerfs for anyone please.

Ain't that the truth? :D

The only reason Peech is successful is cuz she knows to hide behind people like Hurry :p

[Thrudh]

Look, you'll agree that is IS possible to unbalance the game right? You're upset with the paladin capstone change, right?

Imagine if the paladin capstone had been 50d6 extra damage against evil creatures... And a bunch of us said, "Whoa! That's way too much! That will unbalance the game... everyone will want to be a pure paladin!"

Would you agree that that change would be unbalancing and bad for the game?? Or would you say, "Hey, if it's the best build, then suck it up and roll a pure paladin!". Would you say, "I don't mind, I'd love to have a pure paladin in my groups. It makes every quest easier to have a guy who does 3x the damage of everyone else."

If you DO agree that 50d6 would be too much, that it would be bad for the game to unbalance one character class too much... then you agree with us...

We just disagree on the scale.

You think 80 AC is not unbalancing, and we think it is. (What if one class and one class only could achieve 120 AC while maintaining max DPS?).

But do you understand why it's important to balance the game? And why it's not about jealousy? The game would die if one class was 20 times better than the other classes, right??

What we're arguing about is that we think it's bad if a class is 1.2x or 1.5x better than every other class, while you may think that is not that big a difference.

That's a legitimate argument. You may be right that 1.5x better isn't big enough to unbalance the game. Let's discuss THAT.

But don't tell us that we're just jealous and hate our fellow player. We care about the game just as much as you, and want it to succeed as well.

[feynman]

Why are people on the forums asking for a nerf to thier fellow players on a daily basis?



"It is not enough to succeed; others must fail" - Gore Vidal

[krud]

Why are people on the forums asking for a nerf to thier fellow players on a daily basis?

I just don't get it. If I am in a group I want every member to be as powerful as possible. I don't care if I lead the kill count, I don't care if my armor doesn't look the coolest, I don't care if I can't crit for 800. But apparently many of you are jealous of those who do.

And the canned response is "I am not jealous, it is a game balance issue and I am trying to help the game." I call poppycock.

A game balance issue occurs when one player can't compete with another for reason xyz. Don't you realize we are not competing with each other? We are all in groups on the same team. The more powerful your teammate is the better it is for you. Unless of course your the jealous type, then you may want to come and complain in the forums.

Here is a FAQ to those responding to save me some time:


1. But a group wouldn't let me in because I don't have a WOP.

That group sucks and you would have failed anyway if the leader thinks wops are necessary, be happy you avoided that group.


2. I have a WOP and always lead the kill count, I am not jealous and still think every class needs to be nerfed.

These people are still always going to lead the kill count, they will have the best gear and the best build. They want everyone nerfed because they know something you don't, they will always be more powerful.


3. Turbine makes the game more difficult because of the imbalance of xyz.

It's a game, it will never be perfectly balanced. If a certain build/class is the best, play it. If a weapon is the best, use it. If you don't have it, play more. The people who play the most have the best items. Don't play 30% of the time they do and expect to have the same items.


4. It doesn't follow the pen and paper DnD rules.

I started with first edition way back when, and the most important rule was to have fun. The DM had the freedom to make up anything he wanted to make the game entertaining. Turbine is our DM, let them make it entertainig.


5. I can't find a group because I don't have build xyz and wepon xyz.

It's not your build or your weapons, it's you. People don't like you, that's why you can't find a group. Some of the best players in this game have started some of the strangest builds. They always find groups because no matter what they play they are good and an asset to any party.


6. Your just posting this because your bitter that they changed the paladin capstone.

True, you get a gold star. It sickens me that people whining actually convinced a dev to weaken a class.


7. Brac your wrong because I said so and I post on the forums everyday.

Epic fail, log off life.

That would be all fine and dandy if the most powerful wasn't limited to just 1 or 2 builds. What if the most powerful a particular character can be is still not good enough, even when properly geared? *cough* "S&B" *cough* Sometimes it's easier to nerf one thing than try to build up five different things, not to mention trying to adjust mobs accordingly.

Here's a better way to look at it: What if in the current mod most characters were capped at 16, but a few particular builds could level to 20, and a few others capped out at 12? That's the kind of disparity that exists. Should turbine bring everyone up to 20 even though the game is designed for level 16? Wouldn't it be better to adjust those few outliers back to the appropriate level?

[Fenrisulven6]

Quite frankly they pull my non-uber rear through the quests.

And you like it that way?


People should play what they find fun. Some people play casters, some melee, some clerics, some have all kinds of characters. The comment is directed to the people that want classes they don't play to be weaker because they feel obsolete with there build choice. If your build is not fun because it is not the most powerful in the game then you should roll up a new character.

Won't help. Say my caster wants to play around with Curse and Slow spells [or any spells w/o and instantaneous affect]. Whats the point if your gaggle of dual wielding WOPs demolish the mob before I can even get my spell off?

Reverse it. My caster is incinerating everything before you can even close to melee range. Every. Single. Time. Having fun?

[Coldest]

Because if some builds can get 80 AC and full DPS, then the devs balance encounters for people with 80 AC. This means every other build gets hit 100% of the time even with a 60 AC.

If it's a team game, maybe we should make so everyone can contribute instead of just one "uber" person.



So instead of at least trying to balance the game, your solution is for everyone to play the exact same "best" build?

Yeah, nice... That makes for a good game.

The DDO devs have actually done a very good job balancing this game. In most cases, there are no "best" builds. You contribute very well with all classes. We see plenty of fighters, barbarians, rangers, paladins, etc.

However, Ranger/monk splashes are dangerously close to being a "best" class... being so much above the others that everyone will need/want to play them. THAT is what we are trying to avoid. You, on the other hand, think they would be a great game if everyone was a ranger/monk. Very few people would agree with you and the game would die.

Up until the latest mod, w/p weapons were better than DPS, but not ridiculously so... The balance is skewed... They now kill like 5x faster in certain quests... CON damage versus DPS is unbalanced... Do I think it needs to be nerfed? Not yet... It's not all quests, just a few.. I do complain and point out the problem to make sure the devs understand the issue so that Mod 9 quests aren't even more imbalanced.

You on the other hand, think everyone should just switch to TWF wounding weapons. Nice. All other attack forms disappear, and the game gets boring.

We ask for balance so we can maintain choices... This games rocks because there are so many different possible builds out there, and many of them are very viable. Balance is about making sure that remains true.

You missed the boat by such a wide margin that I must now and always refer to you as plow.

[Angelus_dead]

That's the kind of disparity that exists. Should turbine bring everyone up to 20 even though the game is designed for level 16? Wouldn't it be better to adjust those few outliers back to the appropriate level?
Here is a comment on that situation (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14697593054&pageNo=1&sid=1#1) from the designer of some other game:

So we must have a really good reason for nerfs.

Usually the reason is that we have absolute, not relative targets. If you are in a raid and someone is doing 8000 dps, sure the "fun" solution is to buff every other class up to that point. If we end up over-buffing someone to 8500 dps, well then we can go back and give everyone else additional buffs. Maybe at level 90 everyone will be doing 12,000 dps, but inflation is inflation, right? Right? Of course we'd have to buff all the monsters too. We'd probably have to buff gear and talents because otherwise their contributions might seem paltry (I get 20 more dps when I do 8000 dps? lol.). In short the changes necessary to avoid a nerf just spiral out of control.

[Junts]

And you like it that way?



Won't help. Say my caster wants to play around with Curse and Slow spells [or any spells w/o and instantaneous affect]. Whats the point if your gaggle of dual wielding WOPs demolish the mob before I can even get my spell off?

Reverse it. My caster is incinerating everything before you can even close to melee range. Every. Single. Time. Having fun?

sounds like gianthold, and everyone love those quests

from levels 8-13, the main purpose of melee characters is to obstruct the mobs with aggro from hitting sorcerors until firewall kills them


curse and slow are bad examples because they are spells that, as angelus has pointed out before, are by nature not going to be that effective when cast on mobs; they are effective on mobs that for whatever reason must or will live for quite a while (which is why people usually curse and debuff the stormreaver and some other mobs, though they tend to be immune to slow).

A good example for just casters: my sorceror always runs with heighten on, so flesh to stone and finger of death have the same spell point cost. they are also both fortitude saves cast at an equal dc

I cast flesh to stone relatively rarely; it is useful for quests like tomb of the blighted, inferno of the damned, and gianthold tor, where its very useful to immobilize mobs without killing them (for quest mechanical reasons, like the arcanes that spawn in blighted or the way acolytes of flame work in inferno)

For any other purpose, finger of death is superior, because for the same save and spell cost, I can just make the mob go away entirely.

Slow and curse suffer from similar kinds of problems; they aren't worth casting unless the mob will make a lot of attacks or has to be kept alive, in whichcase they are very useful. But the nature of ddo and the quantity of mobs in it and the rate at which they are intended to die makes those spells bad to cast on groups of trash mobs .. even if you are running solo!

[Angelus_dead]

from levels 8-13, the main purpose of melee characters is to obstruct the mobs with aggro from hitting sorcerors until firewall kills them
Bzzt! Wrong, their main purpose is that having them in the party makes chests generate more loot than if the slots were empty.

[Junts]

Bzzt! Wrong, their main purpose is that having them in the party makes chests generate more loot than if the slots were empty.


haha

Nah, its much harder to solo things like delera's elite at 8 or trial by fire at 10 than it is with some people to shieldwall in a few places, if for no other reason than that something will eventually start spamming hold person at you.
Everyone rolls 1s eventually.

Melees make it not cost pots!

[Khorban]

Won't help. Say my caster wants to play around with Curse and Slow spells [or any spells w/o and instantaneous affect]. Whats the point if your gaggle of dual wielding WOPs demolish the mob before I can even get my spell off?

Reverse it. My caster is incinerating everything before you can even close to melee range. Every. Single. Time. Having fun?

So - I decided to roll a Sroc... low level - no damage havin squishee because... I'ma glutton for punishment. I wanted to take a break from melee and be support.

So... i'm running around in the groups - bout to fire off enfeeble, MM - whatever else in my arsenal - and *POOF* - Spell Failure / Target doesn't exist... o.O HA HA HA

I'm sorry - my wifey just asked me why I was grinning - I told her cause I was writing this post.

I just find it funny when that happens. Soopah Sroc to the res... ummm... kk - the chest is where? here? kk thx! (next fight) ENNNNNFEEE........ ummmm... kk fo? right on!

hahahah *shrugs*

Fun is Perception and Perception is Reality

This is just a game... PnP is serious - Perma-death bites... unless your DM doesn't play that way. :D

[Bracosius]

Quoting would make the post far to long so these responses will be by name:


Angelus_dead- It was a great video and of course I saw the point. But what you did not mention is that BMX-Biker is lvl 4 and Angel Summoner is lvl 16. That is why BMX is not able to contribute.

IgorUnchained- Is that sarcasm I detect? I am sorry to break it to you but my reason is correct and yours are not. I am on Ghallanda and I guarantee that any mishmash combination oddlived builds he will be welcome into any group. And tons of other players are in the same boat. I only single him out because he was one of the first people I have seen play a character that makes people go hmm. (for the record I am not an oddlived fanboi, I am not in his guild, and really don't even know him, but his reputation precedes him. :D)

Thrudh- I will give you the satisfaction that it is possible to unbalance a game, but if your going to use examples could they be more logical and plausible. The reason I am unhappy about the paladin capstone situation is because it seems to me it was toned down due to player feedback (whining) and I think it was totally unnecessary. I would have complained equally for other capstones being changed due to players complaining.

krud- You have a ligitamate gripe about S&B. I feel it would be solved with sheilds that were more powerful along the lines of greensteel. Both my melee are S&B and I still play them and still find groups. I don't think the answer is to make TWF weaker. If your not having fun with S&B, grab another weapon and change feats or re-roll entirely.


Everyone reading-

I will let everyone in on a little secret. If you are in a group and they demand a specific class or weapon, drop group. Good players will allow any class with any gear into thier group. If you join a group and ask what should I bring, the good players always answer the same, bring what's fun.

The good players have done just about every quest in game with "non-standard" groups.

[Frodo_Lives]

I was going to do long post dealing point by point, but you know it's just not worth it.

Balancing issues are not due to jealousy from the majority of the posters who advocate changes or nerfs. It is talked about because they think it will be good for the game overall. Anyone who thinks that nerfs are being called for because of jealousy or insecurity or any of that **** goes looses all credibility with me.

More balance between classes equals more viable options on building a character and playstyle. That is a good thing.

When one form of combat or one class/multiclass is mathematically far superior then the rest it is time to look at things. Sometimes the easiest fix is a slight nerf. You change this game with a scalpel not a scythe.

[Khorban]

Everyone reading-

I will let everyone in on a little secret. If you are in a group and they demand a specific class or weapon, drop group. Good players will allow any class with any gear into thier group. If you join a group and ask what should I bring, the good players always answer the same, bring what's fun.

The good players have done just about every quest in game with "non-standard" groups.

Sorry - I had to quote this...

It just reiterates what I stated above. D&D isn't about PowerGaming - It's about having Fun with your current Group.

If that's your idea of Fun, more power to ya - cause while you're stressing out about who you should bring in - I'm having adult beverages with my group and finishing the quest while you try to get yours started. :D

[IgorUnchained]

IgorUnchained- Is that sarcasm I detect? I am sorry to break it to you but my reason is correct and yours are not. I am on Ghallanda and I guarantee that any mishmash combination oddlived builds he will be welcome into any group. And tons of other players are in the same boat. I only single him out because he was one of the first people I have seen play a character that makes people go hmm. (for the record I am not an oddlived fanboi, I am not in his guild, and really don't even know him, but his reputation precedes him. :D)



I am with you on everything but the "the only reason people dont get into parties is because they are disliked by the starholder" point. The rest was directed at other posters, which I should have made clearer. Thanks for not blowing up and for providing a response...I could get used to that! (but I wont hold my breath around here).

I have never had a toon on Ghallanda, but on the two servers I have played on quite a bit (Argo and a bit on Khyber) you have very little between Korthos LFMs and Shroud/Hound runs. I dont spend much time on Korthos, although I dont skip it with my lowbies...I tend to solo through it all on normal to make it quick and still get those decent end rewards. The Shroud/Hound runs are where the "middle school clique" mentality comes in....."no noobs", "must have X weapon", "my friends list is smaller than my ignore list", etc.
I doubt it is REALLY the fault of the shunned LFGer that he didnt get in.....sure seems it is alot more to do with the mentality behind the people holding the star. Noone who dislikes me, on the forum or in game, has ever run the Shroud or Hound with me. All of my threats of blacklisting comes from forum disputes with people I havent and wouldnt run with anyway.

I agree with you 1000% that this is a team game and it should be viewed as such (much more than it is)....but I wholeheartedly disagree with your placing of blame for who forgets that point. You can look at the people who are not including others (and are proud of it) and see for yourself if they are the "DBs" that everyone is talking about....or if it is the "creme de la creme" of our chosen servers. Dont be surprised when you find out I am right. ;)

[krud]

krud- You have a ligitamate gripe about S&B. I feel it would be solved with sheilds that were more powerful along the lines of greensteel. Both my melee are S&B and I still play them and still find groups. I don't think the answer is to make TWF weaker. If your not having fun with S&B, grab another weapon and change feats or re-roll entirely.

But it doesn't stop at just S&B, it goes the other way too.

lets take melee for example. I think it would be fair to say that a TWF plain ftr is probably probably your average melee character, average to good AC, and good dps. Let's put him at level 16. In terms of relative performance it probably looks something like this, give or take a level here and there:

S&B pally = 12
s&B ftr = 12
THF ftr = 13
THF barb = 14
TWF ftr = 16
TWF barb =18
pure rgr = 18
rgr/mnk = 20

It's obvious that s&b, pally's and ftrs need help, and some of them are getting it. They might end up where they should be. Now when it comes to TWF it's clearly better, and there is nothing wrong with that, but there are some combinations that are just way better. Most of the nerfs people talk about would bring them down from 20 to something like 18, yet they still end up at the top of the bunch. When people say nerfs are needed, they just want to narrow the range a little, and center it where the game currently is. Some people will always want to be 4 levels higher than the rest, and view anything that tries to limit them from doing so as a bad thing. The problem is that they can't see beyond their own character, and look at the game as a whole. They see their character as the center of the universe, and that's the level where everyone else should be.

[rnor6084]

Quoting would make the post far to long so these responses will be by name:


Angelus_dead- It was a great video and of course I saw the point. But what you did not mention is that BMX-Biker is lvl 4 and Angel Summoner is lvl 16. That is why BMX is not able to contribute.

IgorUnchained- Is that sarcasm I detect? I am sorry to break it to you but my reason is correct and yours are not. I am on Ghallanda and I guarantee that any mishmash combination oddlived builds he will be welcome into any group. And tons of other players are in the same boat. I only single him out because he was one of the first people I have seen play a character that makes people go hmm. (for the record I am not an oddlived fanboi, I am not in his guild, and really don't even know him, but his reputation precedes him. :D)

Thrudh- I will give you the satisfaction that it is possible to unbalance a game, but if your going to use examples could they be more logical and plausible. The reason I am unhappy about the paladin capstone situation is because it seems to me it was toned down due to player feedback (whining) and I think it was totally unnecessary. I would have complained equally for other capstones being changed due to players complaining.

krud- You have a ligitamate gripe about S&B. I feel it would be solved with sheilds that were more powerful along the lines of greensteel. Both my melee are S&B and I still play them and still find groups. I don't think the answer is to make TWF weaker. If your not having fun with S&B, grab another weapon and change feats or re-roll entirely.


Everyone reading-

I will let everyone in on a little secret. If you are in a group and they demand a specific class or weapon, drop group. Good players will allow any class with any gear into thier group. If you join a group and ask what should I bring, the good players always answer the same, bring what's fun.

The good players have done just about every quest in game with "non-standard" groups.

This is perfectly said.


[QUOTE=Fenrisulven6;2029294]And you like it that way?


Everyone that plays with me knows the deal. Especially my guildies. Everyone that plays with me also knows i am a solid and smart player. over the past three years of casual playing ive learned how to survive without the best equipment.

[Bracosius]

I am with you on everything but the "the only reason people dont get into parties is because they are disliked by the starholder" point. The rest was directed at other posters, which I should have made clearer. Thanks for not blowing up and for providing a response...I could get used to that! (but I wont hold my breath around here).

I have never had a toon on Ghallanda, but on the two servers I have played on quite a bit (Argo and a bit on Khyber) you have very little between Korthos LFMs and Shroud/Hound runs. I dont spend much time on Korthos, although I dont skip it with my lowbies...I tend to solo through it all on normal to make it quick and still get those decent end rewards. The Shroud/Hound runs are where the "middle school clique" mentality comes in....."no noobs", "must have X weapon", "my friends list is smaller than my ignore list", etc.
I doubt it is REALLY the fault of the shunned LFGer that he didnt get in.....sure seems it is alot more to do with the mentality behind the people holding the star. Noone who dislikes me, on the forum or in game, has ever run the Shroud or Hound with me. All of my threats of blacklisting comes from forum disputes with people I havent and wouldnt run with anyway.

I agree with you 1000% that this is a team game and it should be viewed as such (much more than it is)....but I wholeheartedly disagree with your placing of blame for who forgets that point. You can look at the people who are not including others (and are proud of it) and see for yourself if they are the "DBs" that everyone is talking about....or if it is the "creme de la creme" of our chosen servers. Dont be surprised when you find out I am right. ;)

I have a similiar but somewhat different perspective on the grouping situation. I also see the groups that require a wop, or only want a barbarian because they need dps. I never join these groups even if I do fit the requirement. When I see them it tells me the leader is a very poor player and is looking for a powergamer to give him a free ride. It is the same as a group that advertises "The Pit-need guide".

My comment about if you are not allowed in the group, it is because your not liked, is from my experience on Ghallanda. Many LFM's that go up on Ghallanda are for any class. There may be 4 rangers and a pally in the group and it is still open for anyone to join. I find these some of the funnest groups because at times there is more of a challenge with no cleric or caster. And although we do have the "must have wop" or "evasion tanks only" they are certainly the minority. I am sorry that your server is not so open to the fun aspect of the game. Hopefully you can find a good guild.


But it doesn't stop at just S&B, it goes the other way too.

lets take melee for example. I think it would be fair to say that a TWF plain ftr is probably probably your average melee character, average to good AC, and good dps. Let's put him at level 16. In terms of relative performance it probably looks something like this, give or take a level here and there:

S&B pally = 12
s&B ftr = 12
THF ftr = 13
THF barb = 14
TWF ftr = 16
TWF barb =18
pure rgr = 18
rgr/mnk = 20

It's obvious that s&b, pally's and ftrs need help, and some of them are getting it. They might end up where they should be. Now when it comes to TWF it's clearly better, and there is nothing wrong with that, but there are some combinations that are just way better. Most of the nerfs people talk about would bring them down from 20 to something like 18, yet they still end up at the top of the bunch. When people say nerfs are needed, they just want to narrow the range a little, and center it where the game currently is. Some people will always want to be 4 levels higher than the rest, and view anything that tries to limit them from doing so as a bad thing. The problem is that they can't see beyond their own character, and look at the game as a whole. They see their character as the center of the universe, and that's the level where everyone else should be.

I don't completly agree with everything here, but it begs the question and one of the reasons I started the thread.

Do you think it was necessary to drop a d6 and make the extra damage holy instead of pure good for the Paladin capstone?

I can assume the answer considering where you ranked pallys on your chart, but I may be wrong.

[krud]

I don't completly agree with everything here, but it begs the question and one of the reasons I started the thread.

Do you think it was necessary to drop a d6 and make the extra damage holy instead of pure good for the Paladin capstone?

I can assume the answer considering where you ranked pallys on your chart, but I may be wrong.

It's too early to tell how it will play out. At least with an open mind toward nerfs, if it did end up too powerful in one form or another, it wouldn't be a catastrophe if they removed a d6. Others would kick and scream like a baby who lost his pacifier at such a notion.

[Gunga]

Sorry - I had to quote this...

It just reiterates what I stated above. D&D isn't about PowerGaming - It's about having Fun with your current Group.

If that's your idea of Fun, more power to ya - cause while you're stressing out about who you should bring in - I'm having adult beverages with my group and finishing the quest while you try to get yours started. :D

I'll bet you stick your tongue out when you aim.

[Angelus_dead]

Do you think it was necessary to drop a d6 and make the extra damage holy instead of pure good for the Paladin capstone?
It wasn't necessary, just like almost nothing in a video game is necessary. But it's better than the earlier version.

[paulfrank]

I say nerf this thread.

[dopey69]

I disagree with just about all of it.

never ever seen an lfm saying no monks on T mabey you on wrong server

[Gunga]

My LFMs don't say No Monks, but, well....

[Thrudh]

Thrudh- I will give you the satisfaction that it is possible to unbalance a game, but if your going to use examples could they be more logical and plausible. The reason I am unhappy about the paladin capstone situation is because it seems to me it was toned down due to player feedback (whining) and I think it was totally unnecessary. I would have complained equally for other capstones being changed due to players complaining.

I understand your point of view... I don't think you should call it whining though. Maybe some people were just whining from jealousy but most of the long-term posters here posted thinking about game balance.

Guess what? I have a up-and-coming pure paladin. The capstone as written was so good that I knew I was going to stay pure. The capstone as changed now has me wondering which is better... staying pure for the capstone or splashing monk or rogue for evasion...

See... I think the situation now is more balanced... The devs have mostly done a good job with balance... Even if I decide to go for evasion instead of the paladin capstone, I'm still not sure if I should go monk or rogue...

That's very good design... Neither a monk or rogue splash is inherently better for a paladin... It's a tough choice... Just like giving up evasion for the capstone is a tough choice... That's good game-design...

Now I respect that you think the capstone as written wasn't overpowering... We disagree on that part... But my objection to it as written had nothing to do with jealousy (I have a pure paladin too, remember!)... I just thought it was overpowering because it made my choice too easy... It was so good (to me) that splashing for evasion didn't seem equal anymore.

Others might have found evasion still better than the original capstone. Maybe the original capstone was fine and balanced. Post in that thread and maybe the devs will change it again... maybe find a middle ground...

[Gunga]

I understand your point of view... I don't think you should call it whining though. Maybe some people were just whining from jealousy but most of the long-term posters here posted thinking about game balance.

Guess what? I have a up-and-coming pure paladin. The capstone as written was so good that I knew I was going to stay pure. The capstone as changed now has me wondering which is better... staying pure for the capstone or splashing monk or rogue for evasion...

See... I think the situation now is more balanced... The devs have mostly done a good job with balance... Even if I decide to go for evasion instead of the paladin capstone, I'm still not sure if I should go monk or rogue...

That's very good design... Neither a monk or rogue splash is inherently better for a paladin... It's a tough choice... Just like giving up evasion for the capstone is a tough choice... That's good game-design...

Now I respect that you think the capstone as written wasn't overpowering... We disagree on that part... But my objection to it as written had nothing to do with jealousy (I have a pure paladin too, remember!)... I just thought it was overpowering because it made my choice too easy... It was so good (to me) that splashing for evasion didn't seem equal anymore.

Others might have found evasion still better than the original capstone. Maybe the original capstone was fine and balanced. Post in that thread and maybe the devs will change it again... maybe find a middle ground...

Just as you think that making multiclass options equal or better than Capstone is balancing to the game, I think that it's holding the game back. The Capstone should far exceed a splash of a class or two. Strong pure classes (Capstones) promote the strength of the class and grouping together with other strong classes. Which, I think, is the point of this thread. Notice the OP's sig characters...

[Angelus_dead]

That's very good design... Neither a monk or rogue splash is inherently better for a paladin... It's a tough choice... Just like giving up evasion for the capstone is a tough choice... That's good game-design...
Incorrect: it's not "very good" design, and not even "good" design.

Attempting to balance against monk2 and rog2 by adding power to pal20 is a poor approach, because it can only possibly work for level 20 characters. While the characters are on their way up and advancing towards 20, the pure-paladin builds gain nothing from the pal20 capstone. They're staying pure for the hope of getting a nice ability later, but this makes them underpowered compared to the other members of their party (which might include monk-splashed pallies)

It's bad game design to have characters who are only balanced at one certain total level; the other levels matter too.

Once they all reach 20, things might be balanced for a while. But then what'll happen someday if the cap goes up again to 22 or 22? The splashed pallies will become pal20/monk2 and train the capstone. Would the devs have to come up with another capstone for pal22 that's even better?

[Gunga]

Would the devs have to come up with another capstone for pal22 that's even better?

Nah. If they wanted to keep the Capstone as a pure class reward, than you would lose it when you mulitclass.

EDIT: I wouldn't object to Capstone II....

[Angelus_dead]

Nah. If they wanted to keep the Capstone as a pure class reward, than you would lose it when you mulitclass.
There's a possibility the devs will go that way, although the currently published capstones don't use that system.

However, if it's a good idea to make capstones which you lose if you take any levels in another class, then they don't need to restrict them to level 20. They could allow them at level 10 or 15 or whatever, which would alleviate the problem of capstone-path characters being underpowered before level 20.

[Taojeff]

Pretty much everything Aesop said, with one addition: when game balance goes off the rails, the only solution is a campaign wipe. If you hate "nerfs", you're going to really enjoy starting over from scratch.

You are correct. And a campaign wipe in an MMO is close down the servers go home.

You need to understand this, and just stop whining about getting nerfed

Turbine is trying to increase there revenue by making the game more accessible to the casual gamer and drawing in the players. The game needs to be balanced for this, there should not be some super steep learning curve and the difference between the have's and have not's cannot be to great.

It has been my experience in 8 or so mmo's that you use more player base do to game imbalance issues then nerfs. In fact most people who play mmo's are familar with nerfs. Nothing is perfect the first time.

[Steiner-Davion]

I deleted your attempts at being clever. Let's just cut to the quick, shall we?

What imbalances do you currently experience in game? In your own words please, sans noncleverness.

In simple terms we are competing against each other when it comes to having fun. IF the game is designed so that only you can have fun and that I cannot having fun, then I will not play the game. PERIOD! When this happens people leave the game and cancel their subscriptions. If enough people cancel their subscriptions, the game will be boring for all because there will be few if any people to play and have fun with, if it is still up and running.

[Gunga]

In simple terms we are competing against each other when it comes to having fun. IF the game is designed so that only you can have fun and that I cannot having fun, then I will not play the game. PERIOD! When this happens people leave the game and cancel their subscriptions. If enough people cancel their subscriptions, the game will be boring for all because there will be few if any people to play and have fun with, if it is still up and running.

My fault. I wasn't clear enough.

What imbalances do you currently experience in game?

[branmakmuffin]

I agree with you 1000% that this is a team game and it should be viewed as such (much more than it is).
Huh? It should be viewed as as much of a team game as the "viewer" chooses to view it as, not more, not less.