2HF vs 2WF in mod 9

[avatar28]

I was trying to decide whether or not to go with dual greensteel kopeshes or a greensteel falchion in mod 9. I will be rolling a pure barb WF.

Now with the new 2 handed enhancments for WF in mod 9, as well as barb frenzy, it definately favors going 2 handed for the chance to do elemental damage to foes with glancing blows - and they all stack. That being said, I did some simple math to see if 2 handers would out damage the dual wielders. My goal is to max out STR, and take advantage of the huge numbers i would see bringing in BF III. Here is what i have found.

For GS Falchion (my fav 2 hander) I am using 44 STR, here is the breakdown:

18 base
2 tome
4 level
10 Greater rage /w PR IV
6 item
2 madstone boots
2 double madstone
------------------

= 44 STR

For dual GS Kopeshes I am using 50 STR :

18 base
2 tome
4 level
10 Greater rage /w PR IV
6 item
2 madstone boots
2 double madstone
6 exceptional STR ( from 1 tier III kopesh)
------------------------

= 50 STR


now the number crunching
**note** the stats will be assuming BFIII with multipliers increased by 2

falchion dmg
44 str x 1.5 (str bonus for 2 hander) = 25 + power attack = 35 + weapon 5 = 40
2d6 + 40 x 4 (crit) = 168 - 208 damage on a confirmed crit.
IC: slashing means this crit would happen 25% of the time


Kopesh dmg
50 str = 20 +power attack = 25 + weapon = 30

1d10 +30 x 5 (crit) = 155 -200 dmg
IC: slashing means this would crit 15% of the time

So in reality the damage is more or less 10 in the difference.

The part of the equation which can not easily be demonstrated is how much damage can a 2-hander barb WF dish out with the stackable glancing blow feat? what about the increase of supreme cleave? or the +6 added str.
And lets not forget the greater vicious property added on. The 2HF might tip the scale with elemental damage from a TIER III weapon going off on multiple foes, however greater vicious on dual kopeshes add 6d6 per sword, and with GTWF those 6d6's are going to land triple if not more quadruple the number of blows due to the vast amount of attacks they would get.


Just some food for thought - i'm sure I might miss some info, but my conclusion is that dual wielding an Exceptional STR kopesh in one hand, and say MIN II or POS III in the other, would out dps the "new" perks that they are throwing to the 2-handed lovers out there

[Noctus]

You have a mistake in the basic numbers of your calculation.

A Tier 3 Greensteel can only give you +3 exceptional STR, not +6.




The part of the equation which can not easily be demonstrated is how much damage can a 2-hander barb WF dish out with the stackable glancing blow feat?

It can be approximated.
The result is that each THF feat gives on average roughly +4 damage per swing. So if you have acharacter with all THF feats you can raise his damage on a hit by 12 when comparing average damage output. Of course afther you factored in the effect of crits on the average damage per hit.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

The other thing you need to add to your equation is the fact that falchons are about 10% (I'm sure someone will correct with the exact #) slower than either a maul or a great axe. I'd suggest you replace falchon with GA and what you miss on crit range you will make up in swings/second.

[Lymnus]

18 base
2 tome
4 level
10 Greater rage /w PR IV
6 item
2 madstone boots
2 double madstone
3 exceptional STR ( from 1 tier III kopesh)
------------------------

= 47 STR

Fixedthatforya.

+3 tome brings you to 48.

[WeaselKing]

Falchion bad, greataxe good.

[BlackSteel]

several things not adding up in your post

keep in mind, mod 9 comes with a lvl cap increase, and the final tier of rage at barbarian 20. So thats 3 more STR right there.

And as a previous poster mentioned, greensteel can only give you +3 exceptional STR (and DT armor can give you 1 of that, so at most, TWF would have 2 more STR from an offhand weapon, but that weapon wouldnt beat DR)

common buffs for a frenzy barb would be

18 base + 5 lvl + 2/3 tome + 6 item + 1-3 exceptional + 2 rage pot + 4 madstone + 12 rage + 6 frenzy for 56-59 STR

other rarer effects would be choker, alch potions, LOTD, and a higher Tome

Now for weapon procs, true that TWF get more attacks per round, and per minute. But the number is not double. Its about 50% more. If you count glancing blows, THF now gets the same number of weapon procs as well ON A SINGLE TARGET.

The biggest thing that hurts the THF is the lack of a comparable weapon to the khopesh, and lack of a piercing weapon. Falchions are slashing and swing too slow, the best THF are 20/x3 weapons, where as TWF'ers get to use 19-20/x3 or rapiers with puncturing.

[BigBadBarry]

Also is the enhancement as it stands now going to only give the extra Crit multiplier on a 19-20?

(Which is another reason why Great Axe might be better)

I think Eladrin changed it after realising Barb Rapiers would dominate.

[avatar28]

thx for the replies - and yes exceptional str 3 does not exist yet - seen..

however you guys are insane to think a Gaxe is better than a falchion. I'm sorry i'm 100% convinced of this, there is no way to convince me otherwise. On my barb I had a full set (almost) of Gaxes. I had vorpal,frost,ghost touch,fire,wounding,banishing etc.. all 10 of my hotbars were full of gaxes. I used them exclusivly until around level 12. Yes falchions attack a little slower, but not THAT much slower, maybe a few less swings in a min, but I crit 25-30% of the time with my falchion, yes- most often i crit 1/3 swings. with the Gaxe it was like 1 out of 9 or 10. And there isn't that much of a speed difference to make up the difference in damage. Falchion will out damage a Gaxe any day of the week! not only that, but Falchions are a more versatile weapon, my banisher and smiter is pretty sweet hitting on a 15 eh?

[Boldrin]

Too many variables, and too many mistakes in your calculations. Khopesh crits 20% and Falchion 30% just to start. Personally, with all the enhancements coming next mod, I've already got some sweet falchions lined up. 10% slower swing speed is more than made up for in getting 3x more crits than a greataxe. Then you also get 3x more bursts and effects like maiming etc. Falchions will absolutely suck in the next mod, please sell them all to me :)

[BlackSteel]

the attack speed difference isnt horrible, but its there

I can routinely get 125-135 attacks a minute with a maul or greataxe; whereas testing with a falchion, the best I managed to squeak out was 115 a minute. Ten less attacks a minute would still be worthwhile for the extra crit damage IF the base damage wasnt also less.

If the attack speeds are ever normalized I'll be crafting a falchion the day that goes live.

[avatar28]

like he said, 3x more crits more than makes up for the slower attack speed. and my tier III pos falchion hits very often and does insane damage. I have force crit also on it, so when I crit there are 5 sets of red numbers popping up on my screen every 3 or 4 swings. Not to mention my 40+ str and power attack on. I won't be out damaged by Gaxes anytime soon in this or the next mod

[negative]

Go use one of the weapon damage calculators that accounts for swing speed and come back and tell us you still think falchions are better than greataxes.

Edit: In fact, use one of those calculators and put in all that stuff from the OP, since your calcs need some work.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

like he said, 3x more crits more than makes up for the slower attack speed. and my tier III pos falchion hits very often and does insane damage. I have force crit also on it, so when I crit there are 5 sets of red numbers popping up on my screen every 3 or 4 swings. Not to mention my 40+ str and power attack on. I won't be out damaged by Gaxes anytime soon in this or the next mod


I ran the numbers with pos/pos/pos, expanded crit rage, 40 str, and PA on. It's actually a bit closer than I thought. DPS rates were 86.7 for falchion, 87.9 for Gaxe. That's close enough to be a wash.

Now if you have crit rage 2 the Gaxe pulls ahead to 103.1 vs 94.2.

[BlackSteel]

I get about 14 more DPS on the greataxe when comparing with no crit rage/multiplier.

With crit rage it jumps up to about 30 more DPS, and next mod with the added STR, it goes up to around 40 more. You're numbers will vary, but thats what I get on a max STR WF.

Falchions and scythes are my favorite weapons in other games, but I cant get past the slow speed in DDO :(

[baddax]

Can anyone explain to me why the falchion swings slower than a GA? Is this intended or a mistake by turbines part? If anything it would seem like a more balanced weapon would swing Faster than weapon who is top heavy, especially on the down and then up stroke. The down swing/stop/upswing motion on a weapon that is top heavy would seam to take longer IRL than on a weapon who is more balanced weight wise. This would go for khopesh's, Great swords, etc etc. Mauls and Great Axes would have a Slower swing rate because of stopping and starting in momentum of a heavier object over an Arc.

[BlackSteel]

one of the original dev's who is no longer around, and who had the responsibility of coding the attack animations, thought that the swing speeds looked awkward when sped up. So essentially the gimping of a majority of the 2 handed weapons is for cosmetic purposes.

[baddax]

one of the original dev's who is no longer around, and who had the responsibility of coding the attack animations, thought that the swing speeds looked awkward when sped up. So essentially the gimping of a majority of the 2 handed weapons is for cosmetic purposes.


Yes, i understand completely, dont Fix the Graphics nerf the players. Its good to see his lagacy is Alive and well today.

[negative]

Can anyone explain to me why the falchion swings slower than a GA? Is this intended or a mistake by turbines part? If anything it would seem like a more balanced weapon would swing Faster than weapon who is top heavy, especially on the down and then up stroke. The down swing/stop/upswing motion on a weapon that is top heavy would seam to take longer IRL than on a weapon who is more balanced weight wise. This would go for khopesh's, Great swords, etc etc. Mauls and Great Axes would have a Slower swing rate because of stopping and starting in momentum of a heavier object over an Arc.

Aparently it has something to do with being able to choke up on the axes/mauls as you swing :rolleyes:

[GlassCannon]

Falchion bad, greataxe good.

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