monks? why do we need a monk?

[twoton]

So I was thinking wondering why some people really respect the monk class and other people seem to always leave them out of their lfm's.

good points about monks:

TWF feats work with handwraps.
Improved evasion
decent to high ac.
decent hp (not great)
good saves
decent to good dps (not elite dps)
quivering palm (I usually lands if the monk build has a decent wis)

bad points about monks:

They can't out dps fully raged barb. But who can?
The only way they can out dps a pally using exhalted smite well is to use quivering palm.
Does not have the backstabbing power of the rogue (but who does)
Besides a monks fists they really dont have any good weapons to choose from besdies vorpal kamas.
There are no greensteel handwraps in the game

So I ran a few numbers a barb raged out with a greataxe
base str 30
+2 tome 32
greater rage 38
rage power 42
rage potion 44
rage clickie 46
madstone rage 48
-------------------
+19 to dmg
+29 add half for THW
+34 (+5 greataxe)
+40 (avg dmg from weapon is 6 from a 1d12)

Now I have no idea what the ac would be on that barb but thats about the dmg he would out put per swing.

Now a monk
Greater TWFing windstance monk
most likely twice as many swings
base str 20
+2 tome 22
------------
+6 to dmg
+11 (+5 handwraps)
+16 (avg dmg from fists is 8 from a 2d8)
so a monk only has a avg dmg of 16 points but if you double that with greater twf that is 32. Still well short of a raged out barb but with a much higher ac. That dmg out put would only increase if he got the same rage buffs that the barb got as well.

Anyways it really doesnt matter what people think of the monk they are very fun class to play that stays alive longer than most other fighters their lvl.

Have fun flamming away :)

[twoton]

Ok I have also looked at the numbers comparing a STR based monk with rage spell and rage clickie and madstone rage and, he would do as much dmg per swing (without crits counted) as a fully raged out barb duel wielding khophes. Granted the barb would win out on dps due to crits.

So for people that leave monks off their list of melee tanks you need to take a long hard look at them again. Monks are also probably some of your more higher ac tanks out there without having to hurt their dps factor.

I understand most of us have ran with poorly built monks or people playing monks that dont really know how to use them but dont give up on all of us :) There are still good people out there playing monks. It really does saden me though when I see a lvl 14 or 15 stright fighter in a party and knowing I could out dps him :( and the pug is looking for either a pally, ftr, barb, ranger, rogue for another tank and no monk.

[branmakmuffin]

So that kamas and shuriken have a reason to be in the game.

[twoton]

LOL any stright monk better be duel wielding vorpal kamas to make it worth their while :) also I have kept my end rewards based on class the whole time I have been lvling my monk and havent had 1 not 1 shuriken drop for me in a end reward. Is that not wierd?

[Rog]

Ok I have also looked at the numbers comparing a STR based monk with rage spell and rage clickie and madstone rage and, he would do as much dmg per swing (without crits counted) as a fully raged out barb duel wielding khophes. Granted the barb would win out on dps due to crits.

So for people that leave monks off their list of melee tanks you need to take a long hard look at them again. Monks are also probably some of your more higher ac tanks out there without having to hurt their dps factor.

I understand most of us have ran with poorly built monks or people playing monks that dont really know how to use them but dont give up on all of us :) There are still good people out there playing monks. It really does saden me though when I see a lvl 14 or 15 stright fighter in a party and knowing I could out dps him :( and the pug is looking for either a pally, ftr, barb, ranger, rogue for another tank and no monk.

monks are no difrent than the rangers when they came out barkskin cound not get them into a party had good online friends leave for this reason/ pally weak and super gimp when they came out when in doubt ask the pally last
monks are the same when they find there nich everybody from the old power structure will scream there over powered and YELL NERF THE MONK DEV ITS NOT FAIR.
mojomuscle
got to luv them cry babys

[twoton]

well really I think the devs have done a good job with the monks. Its the first melee class I havent felt like I needed to multiclass it. I just think to many bad builds or people that dont know how to play a monk have given them a bad rep. I just hope some of those people leaving monks off their list for tanks will look at this and keep the faith that there are good monk builds out there :)

[branmakmuffin]

LOL any stright monk better be duel wielding vorpal kamas to make it worth their while :) also I have kept my end rewards based on class the whole time I have been lvling my monk and havent had 1 not 1 shuriken drop for me in a end reward. Is that not wierd?
You need to run a low-DEX Human cleric to be assured of good shurikens dropping.

[Timjc86]

A well played monk can be a huge boon to most any party, but they are still a bit hamstrung due to weapon itemization. Crits are a huge part of this. Every monk weapon has a crit range of 20 and a x2 multiplier. Compared to another character dual wielding khopeshes (or heck, even longswords) monks really start to fall behind. Once you add in all the burst/blast effects on greensteel weapons, it's just silly.

In addition to the above, the best monk weapon (handwraps) has no means of bypassing DR the monk can't innately bypass. When most end game raid bosses (the one place in DDO you need high sustained damage as quickly as possible) have 15 DR, monks are automatically at -15 damage below where they were, which was pretty far back due to crits. You can switch back to kamas or quarterstaves (or even shuriken) but then you're stuck with low damage dice in addition to atrocious crit ranges and multipliers.

I love playing my monk and I love grouping with decent monks, but they need transmuting and greensteel handwraps 7 months ago.

[feynman]

A well played monk can be a huge boon to most any party, but they are still a bit hamstrung due to weapon itemization. Crits are a huge part of this. Every monk weapon has a crit range of 20 and a x2 multiplier. Compared to another character dual wielding khopeshes (or heck, even longswords) monks really start to fall behind. Once you add in all the burst/blast effects on greensteel weapons, it's just silly.

In addition to the above, the best monk weapon (handwraps) has no means of bypassing DR the monk can't innately bypass. When most end game raid bosses (the one place in DDO you need high sustained damage as quickly as possible) have 15 DR, monks are automatically at -15 damage below where they were, which was pretty far back due to crits. You can switch back to kamas or quarterstaves (or even shuriken) but then you're stuck with low damage dice in addition to atrocious crit ranges and multipliers.

I love playing my monk and I love grouping with decent monks, but they need transmuting and greensteel handwraps 7 months ago.

This is not the least reason that my monk is retired; the best monk build is 1 monk/15 anything else.

[twoton]

Yes I agree the devs have dragged their feet on fixing some handwraps (weakening) and adding handwraps (at least pure good if not silver or transmuting) and only god knows when we will see greensteel weave handwraps. maybe never. I have to say though with quivering palm land about half the time through out a quest and just my dps I usually end up being the some where in the top 2 of kill counts if you even want to count that stat LOL but he does well for himself. I have no problems not needing to run the shroud 50 times for my "uber" weapons for my monk either :)

[branmakmuffin]

A well played monk can be a huge boon to most any party, but they are still a bit hamstrung due to weapon itemization. Crits are a huge part of this. Every monk weapon has a crit range of 20 and a x2 multiplier. Compared to another character dual wielding khopeshes (or heck, even longswords) monks really start to fall behind. Once you add in all the burst/blast effects on greensteel weapons, it's just silly.

In addition to the above, the best monk weapon (handwraps) has no means of bypassing DR the monk can't innately bypass. When most end game raid bosses (the one place in DDO you need high sustained damage as quickly as possible) have 15 DR, monks are automatically at -15 damage below where they were, which was pretty far back due to crits. You can switch back to kamas or quarterstaves (or even shuriken) but then you're stuck with low damage dice in addition to atrocious crit ranges and multipliers.
Maybe this is a reason to make kamas d6, 18-20, x3, which would make them I believe the only 18-20 x3 weapon in the game (just as picks are the only 20 x4 weapon in the game, and they're not even exotic), and give justification to their exotic status. Maybe non-monks would even take proficiency in kamas if they were d6 18-20 x3. Right now, the only difference between kamas and sickles is that kamas are "centered." Maybe also give monks proficiency in all crossbows, too. Heck, why aren't all weapons with which a monk is proficient "centered?"

[twoton]

why do people always talk about kamas with monks? Is that one of the reasons people dont want monks for dpsers in there parties because they think they are duel wielding kamas? Like I said the only time a monk should be using kamas is for when they have to have transmuting or if they are using vorpals. Outside of that they should be using their fists at high lvls.

case in point a monk with greater TWF has his full attack bonus as though he was using one weapon but gets as many swings as anyone else would with Greater TWF. At level 16 their base dmg is 2d8. They are able to obtain a high ac without sacrificing any of their dps.

For people that dont have the time to do the shroud 40 times to craft a uber weapon monks are probably the best dpsing toon in the game without much effort.

What is sad is any good monk build can out dps just about any sword and board toon in the game and have a higher ac but, people would rather have that sword and board toon in their party than a monk and I just dont get it.

Its funny that my lvl 16 pally is more welcome as a melee dpser than my lvl 15 monk and my pally uses scimatars and has low dps :P go figure. I guess its all in the icon :)

[Desteria]

So I was thinking wondering why some people really respect the monk class and other people seem to always leave them out of their lfm's.

good points about monks:

TWF feats work with handwraps.
Improved evasion
decent to high ac.
decent hp (not great)
good saves
decent to good dps (not elite dps)
quivering palm (I usually lands if the monk build has a decent wis)

bad points about monks:

They can't out dps fully raged barb. But who can?
The only way they can out dps a pally using exhalted smite well is to use quivering palm.
Does not have the backstabbing power of the rogue (but who does)
Besides a monks fists they really dont have any good weapons to choose from besdies vorpal kamas.
There are no greensteel handwraps in the game

So I ran a few numbers a barb raged out with a greataxe
base str 30
+2 tome 32
greater rage 38
rage power 42
rage potion 44
rage clickie 46
madstone rage 48
-------------------
+19 to dmg
+29 add half for THW
+34 (+5 greataxe)
+40 (avg dmg from weapon is 6 from a 1d12)

Now I have no idea what the ac would be on that barb but thats about the dmg he would out put per swing.

Now a monk
Greater TWFing windstance monk
most likely twice as many swings
base str 20
+2 tome 22
------------
+6 to dmg
+11 (+5 handwraps)
+16 (avg dmg from fists is 8 from a 2d8)
so a monk only has a avg dmg of 16 points but if you double that with greater twf that is 32. Still well short of a raged out barb but with a much higher ac. That dmg out put would only increase if he got the same rage buffs that the barb got as well.

Anyways it really doesnt matter what people think of the monk they are very fun class to play that stays alive longer than most other fighters their lvl.

Have fun flamming away :)

a well built & equiped monk will BEAT a THF barb for DPS as soon as you start considerign all teh added per hit stuff because of the much faster attack rate...

Don;t forget FoL advantage there are a LOT of places this can really save cleric SP, shroud portals/lutenents, VoD red orthons are 2 examples.

ALSO they have good weapons Greensteal kama's can rock it, especaly if they are not quite pure moinsk and actuyl tempest monks!!!!! 15% stackgin haste yumyum.

[Inspire]

Maybe this is a reason to make kamas d6, 18-20, x3, which would make them I believe the only 18-20 x3 weapon in the game (just as picks are the only 20 x4 weapon in the game, and they're not even exotic), and give justification to their exotic status. Maybe non-monks would even take proficiency in kamas if they were d6 18-20 x3. Right now, the only difference between kamas and sickles is that kamas are "centered." Maybe also give monks proficiency in all crossbows, too. Heck, why aren't all weapons with which a monk is proficient "centered?"

A finessible Khopesh with a better +1 to crit threat range.

Uber.

[CSFurious]

first, str-based monks are not very good

the best monk is going to be a halfling air/water monk

second, i completely agree that many pug leader are clueless about monks but that is mainly the fault of the playerbase who suck at playing/building monks

it does make me laugh when i see a group looking for that last melee & they want a pallie or fighter instead of a monk

the only solution is to make your own LFM's & build a good reputation

also, i think that you need to figure in the special strikes in your dps calculations, i.e., 3d6 extra damage from an elemental strike like water/ice should add up over time


Ok I have also looked at the numbers comparing a STR based monk with rage spell and rage clickie and madstone rage and, he would do as much dmg per swing (without crits counted) as a fully raged out barb duel wielding khophes. Granted the barb would win out on dps due to crits.

So for people that leave monks off their list of melee tanks you need to take a long hard look at them again. Monks are also probably some of your more higher ac tanks out there without having to hurt their dps factor.

I understand most of us have ran with poorly built monks or people playing monks that dont really know how to use them but dont give up on all of us :) There are still good people out there playing monks. It really does saden me though when I see a lvl 14 or 15 stright fighter in a party and knowing I could out dps him :( and the pug is looking for either a pally, ftr, barb, ranger, rogue for another tank and no monk.

[redoubt]

first, str-based monks are not very good

the best monk is going to be a halfling air/water monk

second, i completely agree that many pug leader are clueless about monks but that is mainly the fault of the playerbase who suck at playing/building monks

it does make me laugh when i see a group looking for that last melee & they want a pallie or fighter instead of a monk

the only solution is to make your own LFM's & build a good reputation

also, i think that you need to figure in the special strikes in your dps calculations, i.e., 3d6 extra damage from an elemental strike like water/ice should add up over time

yep. My halfling stunning/water monk is one of my most capable and fun characters. He self buffs into the mid 60s for AC (no ring yet) and still does decent damage. Stunning fist makes for quick kills and if he needs healing, he just attacks a mob with a lot of hit points and applies the healing curse (fists of light) and beats on it til his HP are back then stuns and kills it.

One of the only times I actually watch the damage numbers is in the shroud while beating the portals on autoattack. I switch on fire stance and power attack and use +2 greater construct bane wraps. He pulls down 25-30 +3d6 avg (typical raid group buffs, just for comparison info.) On Harry he gets 20ish + 8 sneak + 2d6 (anarchic wraps). I stand behind Harry the whole time (yep, moving is required.) He has never died in part 4 or 5 and does not require much healing. I've never seen him get a heal that was not a mass heal.

What I think some people miss about monks is the sneaky additions they make.
1.They create sustained mid to high-mid dps without requiring a lot of support from the rest of the group.
2. In a well coordinated group, the walking on the sun and aligning the heavens buffs can be very helpful.
3. Also in a well coordinated group, the healing curse can be very helpful to the healers in the group.
4. Monks also make excellent kites. Very high AC and monk speed.
5. Great lever pullers. Titan for one, using abundant step. Then also things like running into ritual sacrifice and pulling the levers then running until the mobs lash back. (Yes, other classes can have that level of AC as well, I know.)

Just a few things to consider.

[jockobalbeno]

My 10 Monk/ 3 Rogue/ 3 Paly is by far my most fun cha to play! He is Dex, Wis and Cha based more then anything, (only a 12 strength, yeah yeah, he can't DPS, come group with me). GTWF and Air Stance.
With all kinds of 5% weighted hand wraps and stunning fist, and a Blood Stone, with **** good back stab damage (hafling Guile and backstaber gloves and Rogue ench) he def holds his own to all other tanks. Not to mention a high UMD for self healing and a 35 Fort, 35 Will and 39 Reflex unbuffed with improved evasion! Plus Rogue skills and is imune to everything under the sun.

[Dorian]

5. Great lever pullers. Titan for one, using abundant step. Then also things like running into ritual sacrifice and pulling the levers then running until the mobs lash back. (Yes, other classes can have that level of AC as well, I know.)


Sorry, I had to laugh at this one.

Imagine a LFM up... need lever puller. People in group saying... if only we had a Lever Puller we could start the quest.

[branmakmuffin]

A finessible Khopesh with a better +1 to crit threat range.

Uber.
Do you think it's too uber? I'm asking seriously. It is in keeping with "one die size smaller for damage, one more crit threat range" illustrated by longsword/scimitar, short sword/kukri (and possibly other pairs I can't think of).

[bigj1608]

I haven't read anything in this thread, but monk handwraps = Greensteel Dwarven Axe as far as the 2d8 goes :D

All twf monks with handwraps are dual wielding finessable Greensteel Dwarven Axes.

(Don't smite me with random facts about how greensteel is always +5, while handwraps aren't, or something random like that. I don't care :))

[Grinndal]

Stop whining. There are some horrible monks out there that have given them a bad rep. If people know you as a player then it won't matter what class you are playin.Do you know how long I played this game before people would readily accept my ranger into a group? About a year and a half. If you like your build play it. If you can get a group form your own. Its pretty much that simple.

[Timjc86]

People keep talking about kamas because you have to use them (or a quarterstaff) in the few places you actually need DPS - raid bosses. And kamas suck. Greensteel kamas suck almost as bad. Aside from raid bosses, most everyone will be using vorpals or W/P, so DPS is much less important. Quivering Palm and Stunning Fist truly shine here.

I would be very surprised to see a monk out DPS a THF barbarian.... even a THF fighter against something that is not immune to crits. I don't see tempest as a compelling reason why monks can do good damage as it's not a monk enhancement. I would be even more surprised to see a kama-wielding monk out DPS a THF fighter.

Elemental damage is 2d6 at all tiers. The crit bonus is negligible. And how often are you truly mashing all of your damaging ki strikes anyways? It's almost always more helpful to the group to be working on comboing up your next mass cure, aligning the heavens, or walk of the sun.

Monks are poor DPSers... period. There's no point in trying to build a monk for max dps. If you do so, you are less able to well fill the real roles a group would actually want a monk for anyway.

[feynman]

People keep talking about kamas because you have to use them (or a quarterstaff) in the few places you actually need DPS - raid bosses. And kamas suck. Greensteel kamas suck almost as bad. Aside from raid bosses, most everyone will be using vorpals or W/P, so DPS is much less important. Quivering Palm and Stunning Fist truly shine here.

I would be very surprised to see a monk out DPS a THF barbarian.... even a THF fighter against something that is not immune to crits. I don't see tempest as a compelling reason why monks can do good damage as it's not a monk enhancement. I would be even more surprised to see a kama-wielding monk out DPS a THF fighter.

Elemental damage is 2d6 at all tiers. The crit bonus is negligible. And how often are you truly mashing all of your damaging ki strikes anyways? It's almost always more helpful to the group to be working on comboing up your next mass cure, aligning the heavens, or walk of the sun.

Monks are poor DPSers... period. There's no point in trying to build a monk for max dps. If you do so, you are less able to well fill the real roles a group would actually want a monk for anyway.

I'm with you up until the last part; what roles would you want a monk to fill? Intimidate isn't a class skill, so they won't be tanking; DPS is on par with paladins and battle-clerics, so they won't be DPS'ing; the buffs are nice, I guess, but that's not really a "role" as such.

[Timjc86]

I'm with you up until the last part; what roles would you want a monk to fill? Intimidate isn't a class skill, so they won't be tanking; DPS is on par with paladins and battle-clerics, so they won't be DPS'ing; the buffs are nice, I guess, but that's not really a "role" as such.

I mainly meant that monks should still have a high AC, good DCs for Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm, and should be using finishers like the three I listed. Like I said before, strength should not be a dump stat, but it shouldn't be maxed either. I liked your 16/16/16 build a lot and I imagine it would be proficient in all of the things I just listed: damage is good for a monk, good AC, good DCs, etc.

Edit: I should probably clarify myself when I talk about DPS. Monk damage compared to all other classes is poor; I consequently don't see a point in trying to make a monk that can compete in damage dealt with rangers and barbarians (max dps). That doesn't mean one should neglect strength/dps on a monk either - aim for good damage for a monk, just don't expect to out perform a barbarian.

[bandyman1]

I'm with you up until the last part; what roles would you want a monk to fill? Intimidate isn't a class skill, so they won't be tanking; DPS is on par with paladins and battle-clerics, so they won't be DPS'ing; the buffs are nice, I guess, but that's not really a "role" as such.

With DF, Zeal, DM, DS, and ES I'm not so sure about this bro. Maybe you should take another look at it.

Edit; And I'm not even going to touch the part about being on par with battleclerics.

[twoton]

well I have been playing this game for about 3 year maybe longer I cant really remember anymore and never have taken a long time off from it. I never understand people that leave certain classes off their pug list. IE: needing a caster but they only have up a sorc, needing a melee but leaving off either ranger or monk or both, but yet if they really want to get a quest started and cant get a healer they will add in bard.

I do start my own pugs every once in a while but since I am not really familiar with all the new stuff I tend to not start them since most people expect the person with the star to lead.

I do tend to aggree with yall when you say a monk can not out dps a barb and stuff but when you look at the overall how much resorces a monk takes from a party to the amount of dps he does he shines in comparison to most the other melees.

I just traded in my deflect arrows feat for power attack feat and I have to say it was well worth it on my monk. I ran some numbers on some things out in the vale in this is what I got.

avg dmg per swing: 23 (it was usually between 26 to 18)
avg dmg per crit: 44(it was usually between 41 to 50)

those numbers are without any offense buffs I did have on a barkskin pot :)
I was using my lvl 15 monk with +5 acid handwraps with power attack with tier 3 windstance and no haste with GTWF.

[Chaos000]

So I was thinking wondering why some people really respect the monk class and other people seem to always leave them out of their lfm's.

as much hp as a rogue, dps and saves of a paladin, self-heals like a fighter. More prone to be a liability, while likely to be the last one to die.

Monks have about as hard of a chance of joining a group as a second rogue and/or paladin would.

[Pyromaniac]

DDO is heavily slanted toward DPS, and is even moving more that way (w/p nerf).

Assuming proper DPS builds (none of that S&B or comparing to a 8 str barbarian stuff)...Monks have less DPS than any other melee class. With the new paladin super capstone, paladin DPS > Monk DPS. The only class close (and I think still ahead of monk) would be fighter.

Multiple rogues bring benefit, as they can trade off sneak attack. Multiple bards aren't loved in groups because we only need one set of group buffs. Multiple monks....well I can't see the need.

Monks do offer some benefit, by bringing AC and survivability to the table. But I'd rather have DPS any day of the week.

I'd like to hear what class we should not take in order to take monks.

Barbarian - Superior DPS, Lots of HP

Ranger - Very strong DPS, Good AC or HP normally

Rogue - Very strong DPS, Tend to be glass cannons in general.

Paladin - Very strong DPS after capstone, not nearly as much pre mod 9 though. Short term DPS at the moment while smites last. Solid survivability.

Fighter - Average across the board, not stellar and I feel sorry for that class vs what others are getting. Assuming fighters will get some love by mod 10.

Cleric - Healing and a gazillion other things. Best class in the game.

Sorc - Instakillers with not sustainable DPS

Mage - Well rounded buffers/cc, some DPS/Instakill

Bard - Stellar buffers, also can provide DPS depending on build

So which one do we leave off the LFM in favor of monk? Because then we can just argue the merit of monk vs fighter; or monk vs paladin?

[Chaos000]

Barbarian - low AC, high HP, Hight DPS

Ranger - fast dual wield attack speed + multishot ranged (currently best class in terms of melee w gear due to the advantages of w/p rapiers)

Rogue - Traps, strong co-dependant DPS with not too much staying power

Paladin - Moderate DPS, high staying power. Only real benefit is the paladin aura.

Fighter - If built as an intimitank, moderate dps but steller compared to a paladin. Can potentially have a considerably high AC compared to paladin.

Cleric - Healing via mana. Saves money in terms of potions wands and scrolls. everyone benefits.

Sorc - Outside of Cleric's one of the best kite through AOE for consistent damage class with the fastest casting speed. Haste

Mage - Versatile and can switch out a spell to heal warforged to save cleric mana. Highest save DC's for crowd control. Haste

Bard - Bard song will increase overall damage output of the entire party. Can also umd secondary heal. Haste, Sound burst, freedom of movement.

Monk - Moderate DPS, moderate HP, moderate AC. High saves.

[twoton]

everyone can say what they will about monks... All I know is what I have seen while lvling my monk. I was in a pug in pop everyone in room whiped and I had to finish off the room by myself because a ranger thought he would just use his bow and kit them around the room. After he died I was able to finish off the room. I know you cant compare kill counts but thats all we have to go by. My monk is either first or second in kills 3rd if I have to help with CC with my paralizier. I never zerg ahead of the party to rack up kills. I show up to a fight late and grab aggro from the person beating on it before me. I mean yall can say whatever you want about monks but as I am lvling my monk what I see is different from what yall are saying.

Don't forget about monks being instant killers too with quivering palm. which usually hits about have the time on vale quests on hard. I havent tested on anything higher than that.

I do know that monks at lvl 20 will have 2d10 per fist and 10dr epic and people will probably still be saying that they would rather have any other melee class other than monk :) (you know if you really stop and think about it 2d10 is like 2 great swords in each hand :P)

[redoubt]

I haven't read anything in this thread, but monk handwraps = Greensteel Dwarven Axe as far as the 2d8 goes :D

All twf monks with handwraps are dual wielding finessable Greensteel Dwarven Axes.

(Don't smite me with random facts about how greensteel is always +5, while handwraps aren't, or something random like that. I don't care :))

You are also forgetting all the other stuff that goes onto greensteel items. There are a lot of other damage dice you are discounting and a lot of effects like, transmuting, radiance, lightning strike, earthgrab.... get the point? Its more than just the base damage increase....

[redoubt]

as much hp as a rogue, dps and saves of a paladin, self-heals like a fighter. More prone to be a liability, while likely to be the last one to die.

Monks have about as hard of a chance of joining a group as a second rogue and/or paladin would.

367 unbuffed hit points, all saves over 30, never played a pali so I can't counter -- though the dps is moderate, heals way better than a fighter with fists of light and healing amp, liablity??? I doubt it... last to die... nope... last alive and carrying everyone else's soulstones. :D

[Chaos000]

367 unbuffed hit points, all saves over 30, never played a pali so I can't counter -- though the dps is moderate, heals way better than a fighter with fists of light and healing amp, liablity??? I doubt it... last to die... nope... last alive and carrying everyone else's soulstones. :D

Monks tend to have modest hp unless they focus on their hit point total. Moderate dps is what hurts the most on a monk. Wouldn't be so bad if they could get wounding of puncturing or transmuting on their fists. (in which case they would be about as strong as a ranger in terms of melee)

Fists of light doesn't heal nearly enough (finishers take too long) to offset the damage the monk seems to take during the fight. So if the monk is the only source of melee dps, they won't last as long compared to a barbarian or fighter.

... if everyone died except for the monk, he wasn't doing enough to keep the cleric alive. :D

[The_Ick]

From where i sit, all the problems Monks have right now come down to...

WEAPONS, WEAPONS, WEAPONS...

Hit Points are good, Saves are awesome, speed is above average, AC rocks. Everything is good there.

They just simply don't have the equipment to handle things. They need to add greenweave handwraps, make Pure Good actually drop for handwarps, fix all the broken ones handwraps, and add some new monk equipment. Kurkis would be a good addition, but maybe some spiked gloves or something too. Something with some good crit ranges.

They just simply need more options. Fix and add the weapons and monks will really come into their own. They will someday, i have faith. :D

[Draccus]

I don't play a monk and never will so I don't know much about how they work. I DO, however, go out of my way to exclude them from my groups. The reasons have nothing to do with DPS or AC or hit points. In fact, the reasons have nothing to do with the monk class at all. The reasons are due to the players playing the monk.

1. Why do monk players insist on punching and kicking the air during each and every microsecond of downtime in a quest. The grunts and groans they make while playing with themselves (sic) are annoying as hell and worth a disband/regroup to exclude them.

2. Monks zerg ahead of the group more than any other class I've played with. Yes, more than barbs and more than fighters and even more than Paly/Fighter/Rogue superduper heroes. Look, you shadowboxing, d00dspeak-named monkey, don't complain about getting ignored on LFMs if you intend on soloing the quests you DO get invited to.

(Kidding, of course. I don't even lead groups and wouldn't exclude monks if I did. I'm just messin' with you guys!)

[unionyes]

After monks came into the game, the main reason for having them in the party was because they would talk on and on about their build and stats, and how uber they would be later on, or in some cases how uber they were right at that very moment.

After the novelty wore off, the main reason for having them in the party is to watch them continually kick and punch the air with super cool kung fu action, coupled with the animation and sound every time they switch stances.

Maybe I am just too frigging old. When monks came out in PNP, my group and I decided not to use them in our game. We did an Asian themed realm at one point, complete with Samurai, Ninjas, Monks, and the Asian caster classes, modeled out of a book of Asian AD+D rules, the name escapes me. We didn't like it much, and went back to our standard Fighter/Rogue/Caster/Cleric grouping. As a result, I just don't 'get' Monks, don't have one, and likely won't ever make one.

The reason I won't make one? I just haven't seen anything they can do that pops out at me and says 'gotta get me some of that'.

I have seen some monks kick butt in the kill count, usually played by someone who also has a fighter/ranger/rogue/bard that also kicks butt in the kill counts. Unfortunately, I have seen far more monks either dead, dying, or supremely sucking at melee. If I am taking a chance on filling a PUG with a fighter or a monk, I will take the fighter every time, because I know what they do generally, most people can make a capable fighter, and the odds of it turning out to be a complete gimp are a lot less.

Yes, I know, YOUR Monk is uber and can one shot Velah, tank the Stormreaver, and make the Demon Queen your Saturday night date. I believe you. It's just that most of the monks that I have run with have been secondary melee types at best, and complete non-entities at worst. So for everyone here who has a monk that is so awesome, I wasn't talking about your monks. Just all the other ones.

[twoton]

After monks came into the game, the main reason for having them in the party was because they would talk on and on about their build and stats, and how uber they would be later on, or in some cases how uber they were right at that very moment.

After the novelty wore off, the main reason for having them in the party is to watch them continually kick and punch the air with super cool kung fu action, coupled with the animation and sound every time they switch stances.

Maybe I am just too frigging old. When monks came out in PNP, my group and I decided not to use them in our game. We did an Asian themed realm at one point, complete with Samurai, Ninjas, Monks, and the Asian caster classes, modeled out of a book of Asian AD+D rules, the name escapes me. We didn't like it much, and went back to our standard Fighter/Rogue/Caster/Cleric grouping. As a result, I just don't 'get' Monks, don't have one, and likely won't ever make one.

The reason I won't make one? I just haven't seen anything they can do that pops out at me and says 'gotta get me some of that'.

I have seen some monks kick butt in the kill count, usually played by someone who also has a fighter/ranger/rogue/bard that also kicks butt in the kill counts. Unfortunately, I have seen far more monks either dead, dying, or supremely sucking at melee. If I am taking a chance on filling a PUG with a fighter or a monk, I will take the fighter every time, because I know what they do generally, most people can make a capable fighter, and the odds of it turning out to be a complete gimp are a lot less.

Yes, I know, YOUR Monk is uber and can one shot Velah, tank the Stormreaver, and make the Demon Queen your Saturday night date. I believe you. It's just that most of the monks that I have run with have been secondary melee types at best, and complete non-entities at worst. So for everyone here who has a monk that is so awesome, I wasn't talking about your monks. Just all the other ones.


You bring up alot of good points. It is true alot of people have built or still playing gimped monks. Which has scared most puggers away from having them in their party. Its kind of like the way WF used to be. It didnt matter how good your WF build was nobody wanted you because you were a WF because, to many people build gimped out WF's. I do understand where your comming from. I just want people to know that not all monks are gimped and I will keep trying to get in those partys :)

[unionyes]

You bring up alot of good points. It is true alot of people have built or still playing gimped monks. Which has scared most puggers away from having them in their party. Its kind of like the way WF used to be. It didnt matter how good your WF build was nobody wanted you because you were a WF because, to many people build gimped out WF's. I do understand where your comming from. I just want people to know that not all monks are gimped and I will keep trying to get in those partys :)

And I will run with you. If you have a good monk, it will be fun. If you have a gimped monk, it will be fun too, because for me it is as much fun to blast the **** out of a quest with a kickass party as it is to barely make it through a quest because the rogue can't find a trap box to save his life, the cleric blows his blue bar on searing light in the first fight, and the sorc has a thing for casting Master's Touch on himself and using his +1 Greataxe of Suck on the end boss. Both events are fun.

The only thing that really cheezes me off is this....

(Party) (Monk) Man, these finishing moves are the bomb. I hit for like a ton of damage. I'm tellin ya, monks are the wave of the future of DDO, super high AC, wicked DPS, and saves better than anyones. Did you see me rock that boss? Bwahahahahaha.........

Scorecard

Kills

Fighter 87
Sorc 32
Rogue 75
Cleric 5
Ranger 87
Monk 12

[negative]

Scorecard

Kills

Fighter 87
Sorc 32
Rogue 75
Cleric 5
Ranger 87
Monk 12

What I am about to post neither means nor proves anything, but the last quest I ran my monk in, coal chamber on normal, looked like this (everyone was going pure DPS, no banishers):

16 Monk - 200
14 Tempest Ranger - 100
Everyone else - 12

Granted, my monk is a halfling that started with 14/16/14/8/16/8 and I put all my level up points into STR, so my AC isn't as stellar as some monks, but the DPS is pretty good. All in all what really hurts is the lack of pure good or transmutting on handwraps, lack of w/p weapons, broken handwraps, and green steel handwraps. All of which are equipment gripes. There are a few other minor gripes to do with the class itself, and I run so fast I can't help but zerg ahead of the party, but overall I find my monk really fun to play and a boon to any party - except for raids. That part hurts.

Honestly though, I think it is a lot like where rangers were at till they got fixed in mod 6-ish. A lot of it comes down to bad players or bad builds giving the class as a whole a bad name, rather than there being some specific wrong with the class. I think before TWF worked with unarmed there was an issue, but that is fixed now.

Edit: Unfortuantly DPS is very subjective, and it's really hard to tell if the reason my monks DPS feels ok is really because of stunning fist and quivering palm, or if he really does dish out the DPS. Due to the lack of transmutting handwraps, I haven't bother to raid with him, and it's really on raid bosses like the pit fiend that you can tell just how good or bad your DPS is.

[feynman]

I mainly meant that monks should still have a high AC, good DCs for Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm, and should be using finishers like the three I listed. Like I said before, strength should not be a dump stat, but it shouldn't be maxed either. I liked your 16/16/16 build a lot and I imagine it would be proficient in all of the things I just listed: damage is good for a monk, good AC, good DCs, etc.

Edit: I should probably clarify myself when I talk about DPS. Monk damage compared to all other classes is poor; I consequently don't see a point in trying to make a monk that can compete in damage dealt with rangers and barbarians (max dps). That doesn't mean one should neglect strength/dps on a monk either - aim for good damage for a monk, just don't expect to out perform a barbarian.

The key to building a monk is balance; I picked CON to leave a little low (12) because it is the easiest stat to make up for, through feats, false life items, etc, and also because earth stance is pathetic. So you need STR, DEX, and WIS in roughly equal measure; the optimized race for this combination is Elf. In short, if you see an Elven monk, it's probably a good one :)


With DF, Zeal, DM, DS, and ES I'm not so sure about this bro. Maybe you should take another look at it.

Edit; And I'm not even going to touch the part about being on par with battleclerics.

I think I failed a diplomacy check :p

[Denssor]

I've played with many monks myself and play one myself. And one hugh difference between the "good" and the "bad" is their Ki bar.

For those who play monks, keep this in mind:

Your Ki should never get full. You should always be spamming Quivering Palm, one of your elemental strikes and/or your light/dark strike. If the mob your fighting is immune/resistant to one, use another. Ki = 0, that's your goal.

The only time my monks Ki bar is full is when I'm beating on a portal, because those portals are immune to lightning, ice, and dark (yes, my monk is a dark monk). But for those trash mobs, red names, my Ki bar is as close to 0 as I can get it. As soon as I can use another elemental strike or Quivering Palm, I use it.

[negative]

@ Denssor - You are absolutely right. However, tier 3 fire stance + stunning fist = maxed ki bar no matter how hard you try ;)

You are absolutely right though, if you aren't using your ki, you are really underpowering yourself.

[brool]

as much hp as a rogue, dps and saves of a paladin, self-heals like a fighter. More prone to be a liability, while likely to be the last one to die.

Monks have about as hard of a chance of joining a group as a second rogue and/or paladin would.



My monk has 375 hp's... Thats more than most of the rogues out there.

My monk has saves that peak in the 40's (with buffs, flat footed high 30's) thats better than most pally's

My monk has quivering palm and its recycle is quicker than your wizards fod. (cost's ki but in the shroud there is almost unlimitied ki)

My monk wields dual gs kamas. One earth grab and one lightning strike and doesnt have a problem dishing out enough dmg to be more than effective.

Abundent step is hands down the best feat in the game when it comes to terms of enjoyment factor. Ask any monk around and they will tell you that abundent step is almost worth it by itself alone.

Did I mention and ac that maxes out in the 80's? (no chattering ring)



Anyways, Im not trying to brag on wong as much as Im trying to say that monks are way under used and over looked. My main is a monk and im proud of it. :D Besides its a lot of fun to run around and qp everything the wizard/sorc is trying to finger in the shroud. Just puts a smile on your face.

[brool]

I've played with many monks myself and play one myself. And one hugh difference between the "good" and the "bad" is their Ki bar.

For those who play monks, keep this in mind:

Your Ki should never get full. You should always be spamming Quivering Palm, one of your elemental strikes and/or your light/dark strike. If the mob your fighting is immune/resistant to one, use another. Ki = 0, that's your goal.

The only time my monks Ki bar is full is when I'm beating on a portal, because those portals are immune to lightning, ice, and dark (yes, my monk is a dark monk). But for those trash mobs, red names, my Ki bar is as close to 0 as I can get it. As soon as I can use another elemental strike or Quivering Palm, I use it.



and I can not agree more with this statement. My guild often asks me questions about why other monks on the server run around with a full ki bar and never use it. Thats how I put it too a guildie too. Goal should be 0 ki.

[rimble]

I've played with many monks myself and play one myself. And one hugh difference between the "good" and the "bad" is their Ki bar.

For those who play monks, keep this in mind:

Your Ki should never get full. You should always be spamming Quivering Palm, one of your elemental strikes and/or your light/dark strike. If the mob your fighting is immune/resistant to one, use another. Ki = 0, that's your goal.

The only time my monks Ki bar is full is when I'm beating on a portal, because those portals are immune to lightning, ice, and dark (yes, my monk is a dark monk). But for those trash mobs, red names, my Ki bar is as close to 0 as I can get it. As soon as I can use another elemental strike or Quivering Palm, I use it.

That's a great point, especially as a Fire Monk your Ki is just out of control...take all the first level stances so you can cycle through those attacks and burn that Ki off. It's A LOT of button pushing...maybe you can set up keyboard macros or something to help you out...but it's "free" damage for you to take if you want it...

[Chaos000]

Anyways, Im not trying to brag on wong as much as Im trying to say that monks are way under used and over looked. My main is a monk and im proud of it. :D Besides its a lot of fun to run around and qp everything the wizard/sorc is trying to finger in the shroud. Just puts a smile on your face.

Exceptions prove the rule it doesn't invalidate it. (impressive monk btw :) )

I understand what your saying. modest hp is due to their hp die. Without toughness/ race enhancements to bolster it, it's one of those things monks are prone to take a hit on.

High saving throws help up to a certain point. One of the biggest drawbacks to playing a bard is not having resists and/or protection from elements. Everything else they can pretty much cast on themselves but it's the two main buffs they ask for.

Good monks carry potions (haste, prot, resist, barkskin, shield of faith, heroism) to self buff if none is available. lots of monks out there don't waste the plat (instead hit house p) and ask for 5-6 buffs from other players (after using the shrine) as they have no real means of self-buffing unlike that of a umd rogue. If the argument is that neither does the fighter or a barbarian... then that's what the monk is compared against in terms of greensteel dps, AC (60+), and hit points (400+).

[Snoggy]

Besides a monks fists they really dont have any good weapons to choose from besdies vorpal kamas.

From an LFM/Grouping standpoint, that's a PRO not a con. That means there's one less competitor for the good weapons that could be in a chest.

[DoctorWhofan]

First of all: I HATE playing the class.

Second of all: I LOVE them in my parties.

Third of all: Why not?

[Narmolanya]

I have to agree with a lot of what has already been said here. If the player sucks Monk is a hard one to pull off. This is the same as Rangers use to be.

I wasn't realy interested in playing a Monk for a long time. A couple days ago I watched Kung Fu Hussle with my wife and said I'm going to roll up a Monk. Gimped my fist one and rerolled. I am at lvl 6 now and have lead the kill count in every quest I have done. I don't know if the will hold up to lvl cap but at low levels I am having a lot of fun with it.

The problem is perception. I was playing my Cleric on Argo and was in a group with a 1 Fighter/5 Sorc. This player (who's name I forgot) self buffed and then engaged in tossing his Great Axe around. When I first saw it I was about to drop because I had a preconcived notion of how his character was going to preform. Well he rocked Stormcleave outkilling the barb and fighter in the group. He required little to no healing as well. I was amazed.

The moral is a good player can pull off almost anything. Monks may be easier to gimp but I don't think that warrents an exclusion from LFMs.

[negative]

That's a great point, especially as a Fire Monk your Ki is just out of control...take all the first level stances so you can cycle through those attacks and burn that Ki off. It's A LOT of button pushing...maybe you can set up keyboard macros or something to help you out...but it's "free" damage for you to take if you want it...

There are times, on long red name fights, where my fire monk doesn't even need to right click. I spam fists of light, elemental strikes, sunder, unbalancing strike, one after the other, and my ki maintains at around 25%*. It's an interesting experiance.

*Occasionally I may have to stop and hold right click for a few swings if I do actually hit zero ki.

On trash mobs, sometimes I switch into water stance and the lack of ki when I fail to land a stunning fist is very noticable. However, I'm a Str monk and fire stance helps me hit better / do more dmg per hit so I stay in that most of the time.

[redoubt]

Monks tend to have modest hp unless they focus on their hit point total. Moderate dps is what hurts the most on a monk. Wouldn't be so bad if they could get wounding of puncturing or transmuting on their fists. (in which case they would be about as strong as a ranger in terms of melee)

With 30 dex and 30 wisdom, I'd hardly say focused on hp total.

I have to fully agree on the abismal lack of good monk weapons. Green steel handwraps are way overdue. (I do carry a set of vorpal kamas and a set of wounding kamas when those are needed, but some means of getting transmuting or at least better combos on handwraps is needed.)

Fists of light doesn't heal nearly enough (finishers take too long) to offset the damage the monk seems to take during the fight. So if the monk is the only source of melee dps, they won't last as long compared to a barbarian or fighter.

My monk doesn't take that much damage though... fists of light with 10% monk healing amp and the occasional pot is all it takes. If it got really bad, like I cleared an entire section in coalesence by my self while not healing (losing 200hp in the process), I use wholness of body and regen all my hp for free.

I don't get why I won't laste as long as a barb or a fighter. Even if I'm only doing 50% of the damage they do, I take 10% of the damage....

... if everyone died except for the monk, he wasn't doing enough to keep the cleric alive. :D

Cleric? You still have to have a cleric to complete the quest? :p

[Chaos000]

Cleric? You still have to have a cleric to complete the quest? :p

heh.

My point was that monsters already take a long time to take down in terms of straight dps. If it were taking 50% less damage from the monk, then the monk is even less likely to pull the aggro away from those who are attacking the same creature which might explain why the monk is only taking 10% of the damage.

It falls into the worth of how much the character contributes to bolstering the skills of another character. A rogue's burst dps becomes more valuable if you have another melee who has enough solid dps to allow the rogue to continually sneak attack without pulling aggro. How useful would a sorcerer be if he chose to not pick up any aoe spells, buffs, or haste? A rogue who couldn't pick a lock or disable a trap to save his life? A battlecleric without blade barrier who didn't heal?

[Angelus_dead]

On trash mobs, sometimes I switch into water stance and the lack of ki when I fail to land a stunning fist is very noticable. However, I'm a Str monk and fire stance helps me hit better / do more dmg per hit so I stay in that most of the time.
Yeah, that highlights a monk design flaw. The Ki income difference between Fire and other stances is too big. Any ability which is barely affordable for Water/Wind will feel cheap to Fire. They shouldn't have used +100% Ki gain for tier 1 fire.

[Desteria]

I would be very surprised to see a monk out DPS a THF barbarian.... even a THF fighter against something that is not immune to crits. I don't see tempest as a compelling reason why monks can do good damage as it's not a monk enhancement. I would be even more surprised to see a kama-wielding monk out DPS a THF fighter.

YOU woudl be supprised then be supprised because it;s true, I'm realyl tiered of runnign and posing all teh numbers lookj aroudn I've posted them before but a TWF kama tempest monk BUILD for AC IE LOW STR no PA out DPSs a THF ftr/barb, because all the on hit, I DID not think he would at fiurst i built my monk for AC and when he started rockign it i started running numbers, and was supprised to see what he was out putting see when your attacking REALLY fast, 15% stackign haste, all teh add per hit damage adds up VERY fast...
IE the +1 pray, +2d6 holy, +1 force, +6 bard(+8WC bard), +16 sneak(hafling+vod googles), +2 Rams might, +6 FAvored enimy, applie all that with TWF +15% over haste and the damage adds up fast thats before +8 or +4 or +2d6 or +1d6 every 2-3 attacks on BOTH hands from ki attacks when your spaming DPS on a named you want to dps down fast.

Monks that TWF in air stance can do good DPS not TWF DPS(str) fighter/ranger/barb DPS but they can kill every one else, and yes this makes my THF fighter SAD since hes needs a +5 dex tome to change to TWF :(.

[Desteria]

as much hp as a rogue, dps and saves of a paladin, self-heals like a fighter. More prone to be a liability, while likely to be the last one to die.

Monks have about as hard of a chance of joining a group as a second rogue and/or paladin would.

you know TWF pally built for it are near top tier DPS now....

[Desteria]

The key to building a monk is balance; I picked CON to leave a little low (12) because it is the easiest stat to make up for, through feats, false life items, etc, and also because earth stance is pathetic. So you need STR, DEX, and WIS in roughly equal measure; the optimized race for this combination is Elf. In short, if you see an Elven monk, it's probably a good one :)


HAFLINGS!!!!!

Guile + fast attakc SPEED + bonus AC and saves to make you realyl invicable, the current master monk race...

in the future they may be somethign to say for Half orc STR based DPS monks they worked GREAT in PnP ....

[negative]

Yeah, that highlights a monk design flaw. The Ki income difference between Fire and other stances is too big. Any ability which is barely affordable for Water/Wind will feel cheap to Fire. They shouldn't have used +100% Ki gain for tier 1 fire.

Agreed, the difference is extreme. You could argue that water monks could go stunning fist + crane (ala ram's) but you miss out on taking my favorite animal line, monkey. And a fire monk could take crane as well if they liked, though it would be complete and total overkill.

You could also argue that air monks get that faster attack rate as a tradeoff, but the difference is just too extreme. Then again my fire monk is pretty envious of that attack speed difference.

Earth monks?*crickets*

[Chaos000]

you know TWF pally built for it are near top tier DPS now....

Sure, but you can pretty much make a gimpy by nature class and make it viable by tweaking the build and giving it good gear.

I think paladin's are awesome. just takes a good player to not screw it up. :)

oh I forgot to add, overall DPS is measured based on the damage output vs. red named orthons and bosses with high damage reduction. You can be awesome vs trash mobs but if you take too long taking down the end boss it's a liablility to the party.

[redoubt]

heh.

My point was that monsters already take a long time to take down in terms of straight dps. If it were taking 50% less damage from the monk, then the monk is even less likely to pull the aggro away from those who are attacking the same creature which might explain why the monk is only taking 10% of the damage.

It falls into the worth of how much the character contributes to bolstering the skills of another character. A rogue's burst dps becomes more valuable if you have another melee who has enough solid dps to allow the rogue to continually sneak attack without pulling aggro. How useful would a sorcerer be if he chose to not pick up any aoe spells, buffs, or haste? A rogue who couldn't pick a lock or disable a trap to save his life? A battlecleric without blade barrier who didn't heal?

If another melee has agro, I pick up an extra 8pts of damage from everyhit (lot of hits on a monk using wraps).

Also this is totally discounting that 50-75% of my hits are either: a) crits due to stunning blow or b) insta kill with quivering palm.

Against big red and purple guys, I'll go with you that monks are a little low on the dps scale. But if played well, they take very little damage while providing a steady stream of damage even against boss mobs. Because of this I will go with you on not taking a bunch of monks, because many, even when well played have trouble on boss mobs (i blame turbine :) ). But I'll always include one, even if its not my own.

(Running ritual the other day with a standard looking group, we would be running to the next set of mobs. Getting their first (speedy monk), one would go down to quivering palm and the second would be stunned and 3/4 dead before the "real dps" arrived. Rinse and repeat... instakill, stun-auto-crit... instakil.... I also had a real nice string of red numbers on the boss in there and held his agro... hmm.)

[Chaos000]

If another melee has agro, I pick up an extra 8pts of damage from everyhit (lot of hits on a monk using wraps).

Also this is totally discounting that 50-75% of my hits are either: a) crits due to stunning blow or b) insta kill with quivering palm.

I meant assuming there was no other real melee (picking a monk over a barbarian or fighter), the aggro would go to the people trying to help out by ranging or entering combat that aren't built for taking hits.

It's less ritual, more kobold (which makes it tough even for the rogue to dish out dps due to the red named elementals) and sorjek who is tough to take down without sufficient dps from everybody present.

I've seen maybe one or two monks that do well... others... not so much. If I leave monks out of my lfm, if they happen to request to join and I recognize their name I'll toss them into my group as a secondary dpser but only if all the other basics are covered.

[Desteria]

Sure, but you can pretty much make a gimpy by nature class and make it viable by tweaking the build and giving it good gear.

I think paladin's are awesome. just takes a good player to not screw it up. :)

oh I forgot to add, overall DPS is measured based on the damage output vs. red named orthons and bosses with high damage reduction. You can be awesome vs trash mobs but if you take too long taking down the end boss it's a liablility to the party.

agreed When i talk about DPS number i'm taling about stuf fi actuyl DPS down and it actuyl matters even romotly how fast they die, IE rever does not count because the problem is not to killl him but to NOT kill him to soon ;) stuff that matters a lot HARRY, Portals, shroud lutenants, reds orthons, ohter REd nameds, Sorjek, Sulu a little but not as much since MOST of the quets is slow kill the adds time only the very end tends to be DPS fest.

And a monk with there attack speed and vaguly the right weapons TWF, (bypassign DR etc.) can rock them out better then any THF or S&B, they wont beat other DPS builds TWF normaly but they may come darn close to some with a tempest monk because 15% haste adds up fast, and HtH annimatiosn are ;) FAST LIKE LIGHTNING....

[bandyman1]

Monks suck.


The end.

[seldarin]

The only thing that really cheezes me off is this....

(Party) (Monk) Man, these finishing moves are the bomb. I hit for like a ton of damage. I'm tellin ya, monks are the wave of the future of DDO, super high AC, wicked DPS, and saves better than anyones. Did you see me rock that boss? Bwahahahahaha.........

Scorecard

Kills

Fighter 87
Sorc 32
Rogue 75
Cleric 5
Ranger 87
Monk 12

Whilst the behaviour exhibited cheeses me off too, one thing really needs to be brought to light that is always overlooked.

A kill count means jack ****. Kill count refers to who hit the mob LAST. Now unless you were singlehandedly fighting everything and took it down in 5 seconds, then i really couldnt give a rats ass what your kill count reads.

You might kill 200 mobs in a quest out of 300, but you may have also only hit once too. Doubtful, but the point is, you cant use a kill count as a valid means of how much you contributed to a quest.

Its like all the ppl that post in party chat, "you killed arri" after Harry has gone down in part 4 or 5
The didnt kill him, the PARTY did, EVERYONE that was hitting him was doing damage, no one took him down by themselves. Do you get where i am going, kill count means **** all in a quest, unless its to the ***** envying tools that think a kill count makes them uber cool in a fantasy world.

Sorry for the harsh words, but the one thing that tongues my dot good and proper in this game is the ppl that think a kill count reflects what was done in a quest, when all it reflects is who hit something last.

[Desteria]

Monks suck.


The end.

MONKS RULE

The real end.

[redoubt]

I meant assuming there was no other real melee (picking a monk over a barbarian or fighter), the aggro would go to the people trying to help out by ranging or entering combat that aren't built for taking hits.

It's less ritual, more kobold (which makes it tough even for the rogue to dish out dps due to the red named elementals) and sorjek who is tough to take down without sufficient dps from everybody present.

I've seen maybe one or two monks that do well... others... not so much. If I leave monks out of my lfm, if they happen to request to join and I recognize their name I'll toss them into my group as a secondary dpser but only if all the other basics are covered.

Well, a monk is a real melee. Its just not a barbarian or a fighter or a ... you get the idea.

I've not played a str based monk so I cannot comment on what they can do. I've actually fought the elementals in kobold. I'm not fast at it, but I can get the job done. I cannot (atm) remember if FoL was working or if I had to drink a few pots along the way. I'll have to run it soon and pay more attention to that. I do think they were immune to the cold attack or had more DR than I had cold special which kinda sucked.

Against sorjek, i don't think even I would take two of my build until I tried it with one to see what happened. There is a lot going on in that quest that I'm still trying to figure out beyond the need for massive DPS. I've seen groups with 4 fighter/barbarians, a cleric and a sorc fail... so its a little hard to pin that on a monk, but I will concede that a stunning fist water monk with crane enhancements finds is not the best red named killer in the game.

For your last part about the LFM. If I see one without a monk in it and monks excluded I generally don't bother talking to them unless I already know them. If they think monks are not good enough, I'm not going to change there mind in a tell and its not worth the frustration. I've not run him enough in the refuge yet to really know how he does out there, but in the vale, I'd take multiple monks on any except maybe running with the devils. For running with the devils I'd prolly have to know them and make sure they had complentary weapons of some sort, mostly for the one boss guy that regens. So I do see your point. There are some mobs that cannot be killed slowly because they regen too much.

[negative]

I meant assuming there was no other real melee (picking a monk over a barbarian or fighter), the aggro would go to the people trying to help out by ranging or entering combat that aren't built for taking hits.

It's less ritual, more kobold (which makes it tough even for the rogue to dish out dps due to the red named elementals) and sorjek who is tough to take down without sufficient dps from everybody present.

I've seen maybe one or two monks that do well... others... not so much. If I leave monks out of my lfm, if they happen to request to join and I recognize their name I'll toss them into my group as a secondary dpser but only if all the other basics are covered.
All I can say is my monk has been the real melee in many quests on the way to 16 and held aggro just fine from those that didn't want aggro. The exception being unprepared rogues that weren't ready for just how much DPS they do when I hit the unbalancing strike button to make sure I'm getting all my sneak attack damage in.

Red named elementals in kobold? Dual g. elemental bane kamas = dead elemental.

As for sorjeck, the only time my monk was in there it was the whole parties first run on the mission, and it didn't go well. I want to get him in there again though, as unarmed combat bypasses his DR (blunt, magic) and I feel like I will do ok, as long as bane handwraps are actually working now.

But again, I'm a str monk, other's results may vary. And I don't disagree, you unfortuanantly can't bank on good DPS coming from any random monk.

Monks suck.


The end.
I'll see you in the pvp pit bandy ;)

[bandyman1]

Don't make me thrash you mercilessly like I did Rusken :D.

[Desteria]

Against sorjek, i don't think even I would take two of my build until I tried it with one to see what happened. There is a lot going on in that quest that I'm still trying to figure out beyond the need for massive DPS. I've seen groups with 4 fighter/barbarians, a cleric and a sorc fail... so its a little hard to pin that on a monk, but I will concede that a stunning fist water monk with crane enhancements finds is not the best red named killer in the game.

TWF HtH monks are potentaly oen of the TOP DPS peopel for sorjek actuly, Blut+magic bypasses his DR HtH hits VERY FAST, and they have option for INSAIN weapons on him, like holy burst of GUB, & they only need to find one of them....
Monk gain on other classes a lot here also becasue whats oen fo the big complaints all monk weapons are 20x2 well you know what.... sorjek imune to crits means basicaly all weapons are mroe about base dice all fo a sudden adn monks at 2d8 VERY fast attakc speed are doign good here.
TWF Pallys and rangers are right up there as well allt eh palyl stuff works great as does FE undead..
Barbs take a BIG hit against sorjek since a huge part fo there DPS supremesy is in crits to wich sorjek is immune.
Rouges take a HUGE hit agianst him poro rouges... however a decent tWF rouge will still eb dishign out nice damage and rouges make mephits Pop FAST, I've done sorjek runs with 3 rouges 1 pally 1 caster 1 cleric and it's bene NP at all from a DPS perspective.... Really hes a lot liek shroud bypassing his DR is KEY becasue it's huge.

[...v...]

Your numbers look good, but I think you missed one major factor. Most of the monks are built gimped.