Level 20 paladin ability

[maddmatt70]

I have an idea for the Level 20 paladin special ability: +1 to smites per/day. I also have an idea for the level 20 fighter special ability: Bonus Feat. Here is an idea for the level 20 Wizard special ability: Wizard Bonus Feat. Oh wait I must admit that I copied these ideas from the Players Handbook 3.5 edition. Lets see last I checked I was playing Dungeons and Dragons Online which is based on Dungeons and Dragons the roleplaying game not monty haul the made up game.

[Wizzly_Bear]

I have an idea for the Level 20 paladin special ability: +1 to smites per/day. I also have an idea for the level 20 fighter special ability: Bonus Feat. Here is an idea for the level 20 Wizard special ability: Wizard Bonus Feat. Oh wait I must admit that I copied these ideas from the Players Handbook 3.5 edition. Lets see last I checked I was playing Dungeons and Dragons Online which is based on Dungeons and Dragons the roleplaying game not monty haul the made up game.
you said it all in the bold/underline part

[Angelus_dead]

Oh wait I must admit that I copied these ideas from the Players Handbook 3.5 edition. Lets see last I checked I was playing Dungeons and Dragons Online which is based on Dungeons and Dragons the roleplaying game not monty haul the made up game.
Are you seriously saying what it looks like you're saying?

[Tanka]

Are you seriously saying what it looks like you're saying?
I do believe he is.

[Korvek]

I have an idea for the Level 20 paladin special ability: +1 to smites per/day. I also have an idea for the level 20 fighter special ability: Bonus Feat. Here is an idea for the level 20 Wizard special ability: Wizard Bonus Feat. Oh wait I must admit that I copied these ideas from the Players Handbook 3.5 edition. Lets see last I checked I was playing Dungeons and Dragons Online which is based on Dungeons and Dragons the roleplaying game not monty haul the made up game.

How about Rogues?

[Fennario]

Someone's not a happy camper about their monk splash.:)

Seriously though, evasion, extra feats, and extra ac is a pretty good trade for a few more damage dice isn't it? What am I missing?

[Aeneas]

Someone's not a happy camper about their monk splash.:)

Seriously though, evasion, extra feats, and extra ac is a pretty good trade for a few more damage dice isn't it? What am I missing?

You forgot monk wis 1, wind stance that will stack with Zeal, maxed out balance and jump, and the choice to use your hands to take out rusties and mucks instead of lame-o muckbanes.

[Cold_Stele]

The enhancement system's always been the most powerful thing in DDO (more powerful than most if not all feats and abilities).

The more levels you have in a class, the more powerful the enhancements are.

Everyone knows that multiclassing had to be a risk because of this.

I'm just going to wait and see how my Ranger gets screwed. My Tempest Barb already got hosed by the Crit Rage nerf.

[maddmatt70]

The enhancement system's always been the most powerful thing in DDO (more powerful than most if not all feats and abilities).

The more levels you have in a class, the more powerful the enhancements are.

Everyone knows that multiclassing had to be a risk because of this.

I'm just going to wait and see how my Ranger gets screwed. My Tempest Barb already got hosed by the Crit Rage nerf.

I have decided that I am willing to reroll my ranger because I took some risks with her, but my paladin and fighter I am not rerolling there is nothing wrong with their builds in pnp and I took no real risks with them. I am not willing to constantly reroll characters because of the whims of Turbine. That quite frankly is not fun. I am getting close to my max for characters in regards to character slots. After I cap my last character and grind what little new content comes out these days I am done.

One of the best things about this game is that it is based on D&D which I really enjoy and I can build characters which are like D&D characters, but that is becoming increasingly and increasingly not the case with DDO.

It is extremely difficult to forecast what type of character to build. I would like to build an 18 ranger 2 barbarian character( or 18 ranger 1 barbarian 1 fighter), but investing one second of time into building and leveling that character seems foolhardy both for mod 9 and in the future mods. After this mod there will of course be many new changes coming to ddo which can not be predicted (this is inevitable because of their previous track record) and will make current characters inadequate at or less good at doing the things they were built to do.

[Angelus_dead]

It is extremely difficult to forecast what type of character to build. I would like to build an 18 ranger 2 barbarian character( or 18 ranger 1 barbarian 1 fighter), but investing one second of time into building and leveling that character seems foolhardy both for mod 9 and in the future mods. After this mod there will of course be many new changes coming to ddo which can not be predicted (this is inevitable because of their previous track record) and will make current characters inadequate at or less good at doing the things they were built to do.
And that's why Turbine should a__ __a__ _e__e_ to DDO.

(Fill in the blanks! What fun it is to solve puzzles!)

[Dark-Star]

After I cap my last character and grind what little new content comes out these days I am done.
:eek: No thanks.

I can see your frustration, but honestly evasion, higher ac at the point it makes a significant difference, stances, a free +1 to ac and two extra feats is better than 2d6 - 4d6 damage.

It's a nice capstone, the best so far along with wizard, but it's not the end-all be-all.

A two monk splash paladin is still the superior end game build, especially in the hands of a competent player.

[maddmatt70]

:eek: No thanks.

I can see your frustration, but honestly evasion, higher ac at the point it makes a significant difference, stances, a free +1 to ac and two extra feats is better than 2d6 - 4d6 damage.

It's a nice capstone, the best so far along with wizard, but it's not the end-all be-all.

A two monk splash paladin is still the superior end game build, especially in the hands of a competent player.

Hey Dark-Star, its not the build I wanted though. I wanted a high dps build with o.k. damage mitigation abilities, now it looks like I have an o.k. dps build with o.k. damage mitigation abilities instead. I would have preferred a high dps build with less damage mitigation capabilities which is the pure level 20 paladin.

[gamblerjoe]

...my paladin and fighter I am not rerolling there is nothing wrong with their builds in pnp...

i realized a long time ago that this is not pnp. i have a 32pt dwarf ftr16 who is completely gimped because he is all str and con. in pnp he's everything u look for in the party fighter, but here he is a sp sponge with mediocre thf dps. i also have a 32pt elf bow ranger (16rgr.) once u get out of GH, bows are slow and useless. shes too squishy to ever convert to a melee. boo hoo.

my point is, i knew this wasnt pnp the whole time, but i didnt actually learn how to look at this game on its own and make a truly good build, untill after i got 32 pt builds, and capped 2-3 more toons.

slashdance, on the other hand, is my most heavily multiclassed toon, and my best one. at lvl 20 he will stack up fine against all the rangers with tempest 3, and all the paladins with their extra damage dice. this is because his function is slightly different, and he is extremely effective in all but a select few situations.

what u need to realize, is that multiclassing is broken. the synergy is too good, and pure breeds need to get something to make up for it. that is the whole point of capstones. a lot of people have multiclass toons that are only mediocre, and they are upset that they dont get a cool ability at lvl 20. others are sad that there are actually tougher decisions presenting themselves now with the new enhancements. they would rather have a brightly lit, paved road to the superior toon.

the people who have the uber multiclass toons have not had their confidence shaken. tbh, some of the 1337357 players on the server are very relaxed. if u tell then that their toon is ridiculous, they will tell u that they are just having fun playing a game.

[Angelus_dead]

There are really three separate questions here:

1. Is it always better to obey the D&D rules in every way?

2. Is it good for the devs to give a powerful ability to level 20 of a class?

3. Assuming they do give out powerful abilities at level 20, is it good that existing characters aren't allowed to switch to take advantage of it?

A person could give different answers to each question, and even people who support the idea of paladin20 being powerful would probably agree that it's unfair not to allow you to change your build and take it.

[Borror0]

I am assuming you want Turbine to remove all enhancements?

[maddmatt70]

There are really three separate questions here:

1. Is it always better to obey the D&D rules in every way?

It is good that ddo tries to follow the rules of D&D as much as possible. This is due to several reasons one reason is the expectation of customers is this game is based on D&D and when it starts to not resemble D&D the customers expectation are not being met. I constantly see on these forums people making characters which are based on D&D characters. Their expectations are this game will be very similar to D&D.

The enhancement system although mmo friendly because it in effect gives DDO more levels has for the most part been a failure. It has led to weird unbalancing such as Giants with tons and tons of hit points. My guess is this game would be better if it more closely followed the rules of D&D.



2. Is it good for the devs to give a powerful ability to level 20 of a class?


This was for me the icing on the this isn't D&D cake. This is so unlike D&D. A 20th level ability for a pure character that is superior to any of the individual tiers of any of the prestige enhancements ( ddo's version of the prestige class) and any paladin level for that matter. It is so unlike anything in D&D. There is no way to plan for it because we didn't get information on the level 20 special abilities when DDO came game out. It makes the game arbitrary. I also had issues with the decision to make the third tier enhancements always the most powerful and the 6/12/18th level pre progression. You can't possibly plan for any of these



3. Assuming they do give out powerful abilities at level 20, is it good that existing characters aren't allowed to switch to take advantage of it?


I am a power gamer and I find this unfair. If I were a casual gamer I would think this was ridiculous. Imagine having 1-2 characters and because you have an extra level of some class other then paladin you can't get a powerful ability AND this was totally unforeseeable. So a casual gamer has to spend another year leveling up a replacement character or suck it up and be gimped. Its laughable - they are going to instead play neverwinter nights which did a better job of capturing D&D or an mmo that allows a full respec and is probably about as successful at having rules similar to D&D as DDO is.

[Borror0]

[The enhancement system] has led to weird unbalancing such as Giants with tons and tons of hit points. My guess is this game would be better if it more closely followed the rules of D&D.
That's inaccurate. The enhancement system was a good thing.

The problem with it was the Turbine was too generous with the bonus, which caused overinflation of stats. Same applies to gear, and it's a vicious circle.

This is so unlike D&D. A 20th level ability for a pure character that is superior to any of the individual tiers of any of the prestige enhancements [...] and any paladin level for that matter. It is so unlike anything in D&D.
You didn't answer the question. The question is not whether it's a good thing to go against D&D but rather, disregarding D&D, is it a good or a bad thing?

[Bobertt]

Am I the only one that doesn't base a whole character on 2d6 damage?

[Junts]

Hey Dark-Star, its not the build I wanted though. I wanted a high dps build with o.k. damage mitigation abilities, now it looks like I have an o.k. dps build with o.k. damage mitigation abilities instead. I would have preferred a high dps build with less damage mitigation capabilities which is the pure level 20 paladin.

Matt, you're a pretty smart guy. I'm having a hard time understanding why you wouldn't be wise enough to build your characters with some consideration of the intended ddo role of assorted classes; paladin is a pretty defensive class by nature, with excellent party support/self sufficiency (healing, immunities, buffs via auras) and intended ability for focused dps a gainst highly evil things.

Monk is also a flexible, highly-defensive/survivable class with iffy dps that specializes in party support.

Why would you think that putting those two together would get you a universally high-offense, mediocre-to-average defense build along the lines of what a ranger or barbarian is designed to do well?

I understand you're peeved and frustrated, but the reality i s that almost all these changes are reinforcing class roles to what they usually (and are meant) to do well in pnp. Do pnp paladins have weapon of good? Nope, because there, smites etc are adequate to make them great at bashing evil, and further, the basic concept of weapon of good -is- possessed by a paladin prc (fist of raziel).

Your barb/ranger/fighter build should be a demolishing dps machine with pretty questionable defenses; if you build it to be one of those, I would always expect future changes to continue to encourage it to be good at those things (and only be toned back if performance were completely excessive). Hell, look at all the tempest complaints; and their change to it still reinforced the basic design concept of the ranger (flexible, effective twf/ranged offense, not fully dependable defense) by hurting tempest ranger's ac instead of their damage output - because twf r angers are supposed to be good at dps!

Its not that hard to design a ddo character that will work in the long term; you just have to look at the intended class roles, and not at specific abilities, level caps, etc.

It may take them a while to fix a class that's behind (ranger, now paladin) but once they do, as you can see, they sure do make them good at what they're supposed to be good at.

If you wanted a max dps build, you shouldn't have made a paladin/monk, adding monk should sacrifice offense for defense/self-sustainability for a build ... and it does just that!

[Strykersz]

The real problem with enhancements is that they attempted to achieve regularity and predictability with them by having them fit certain level structures(6/12/18, 2/6/10, etc.) and then did not vary those structures between classes(when the dead zones vary between classes). The true use of enhancements should be to try and smooth the power gain curve. This goal is *not* well served by huge jumps in power from single enhancements, because this creates obvious class break points. It's akin to giving a caster all of their spells/sp at an arbitrary level.

edit: This may mean increasing the granularity of a large number of enhancements(if Tempest I was 4 2.5% enhancements for example), which really would not be a bad thing in a lot of cases.