Monk vs Ranger

[Roxie]

k i have a question about rangers and monk. Rangers that have a splash of monk in them seem to be better then full monks. They are getting the wisdom ac bonus for splashing monk in them and can get a higher ac then a pure monk. They can output better dps then a monk, have almost the same save still have evasion. So all in all its better to go ranger/splash monk then pure monk. Well for pnp monks are meant to have the highest ac and best saves. This is what i think, that monks should have a higher ac then a ranger and this is how they should fix it. The monk wisdom bonus only increase your ac if your centered that would fix the probelm right there. But for rangers, rangers are meant to be deadly with a bow, dont make them better at melee cause thats all u see nowadays are melee rangers increase the bow ability and when i say that give bow rangers something that no one else can get like a possible instant kill cause u hit the enemy in the heart or some kind of linger damage. Tell me what u all think about this and what u think should happen between these two classes.

[Draclaud]

You can't use pnp to say a change is needed then go against pnp to make said change. PnP rules say the monk loses his unarmed attack bonus while fighting without monk weapons and his wis bonus to AC if he wearsarmor or uses a shield. I understand your frustration but even in PnP monks are a challengeing class to play. The ones that have run in my campaigns end up primarily being mage killers.

[baddax]

In ddo monks are Supposed to be a gimped class, just the way its is so deal with it. Rangerer are the golden Child of DDO, so deal with that also. If you think rangers are over powered and monks are gimped, your right so get over it and just roll a Ranger Monk hybrid. Rangers are to Monks as Lotro is to DDo IMO.

[Roxie]

In ddo monks are Supposed to be a gimped class, just the way its is so deal with it. Rangerer are the golden Child of DDO, so deal with that also. If you think rangers are over powered and monks are gimped, your right so get over it and just roll a Ranger Monk hybrid. Rangers are to Monks as Lotro is to DDo IMO.

im not saying monks are gimp and rangers are over powered at all they both bring something diff to ddo. I would like to build a bow ranger is my main thing but bow rangers seem to blow, thats my conflict.

[HeavenlyCloud]

im not saying monks are gimp and rangers are over powered at all they both bring something diff to ddo. I would like to build a bow ranger is my main thing but bow rangers seem to blow, thats my conflict.

So splashing monk is not the issue :D only ranged combat ;).

There been a lot of thread about it...

[feynman]

You're kidding, right? If you need someone to win a long jump competition, bring a monk; otherwise, bring anything else.

Monk = great AC, crappy DPS
Ranger = good AC, great DPS
Ranger/1 monk = best of both worlds

There is no reason to take more than 1 level of monk. Ever.

[baddax]

Agreed, i think they should Rename "Rangers" to "Two Feapon Fighters" and redo the "ranger" class to make it "ranged" specced. I very rarely see a ranger "ranging" if i do i pause and wonder just how gimped he really is, or maybe hes just a noob?

[vainangel]

Agreed, i think they should Rename "Rangers" to "Two Feapon Fighters" and redo the "ranger" class to make it "ranged" specced. I very rarely see a ranger "ranging" if i do i pause and wonder just how gimped he really is, or maybe hes just a noob?

LOL
I have a Tempest Ranger and a Arcane Archer Ranger...
I nearly capped the Arcane before playing other toons... now on the Tempest.

Wonderful to play such diff ways.

That is the point of the game.
[I will admit the Arcane Archer will not be doing many raids, but he is really fun to play]

[...v...]

k i have a question about rangers and monk. Rangers that have a splash of monk in them seem to be better then full monks. They are getting the wisdom ac bonus for splashing monk in them and can get a higher ac then a pure monk. They can output better dps then a monk, have almost the same save still have evasion. So all in all its better to go ranger/splash monk then pure monk. Well for pnp monks are meant to have the highest ac and best saves. This is what i think, that monks should have a higher ac then a ranger and this is how they should fix it. The monk wisdom bonus only increase your ac if your centered that would fix the probelm right there. But for rangers, rangers are meant to be deadly with a bow, dont make them better at melee cause thats all u see nowadays are melee rangers increase the bow ability and when i say that give bow rangers something that no one else can get like a possible instant kill cause u hit the enemy in the heart or some kind of linger damage. Tell me what u all think about this and what u think should happen between these two classes.

Just play the game and stop analyzing it.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Agreed, i think they should Rename "Rangers" to "Two Feapon Fighters" and redo the "ranger" class to make it "ranged" specced. I very rarely see a ranger "ranging" if i do i pause and wonder just how gimped he really is, or maybe hes just a noob?

Ranger does not equal ranged nor should it, anymore than you expect forest rangers to run around with bows because it says "range" in their name. The D&D ranger is based on the LOTR ranger. They are woodsmen and weapons experts. They can use a bow, but I don't recall Aragon doing nothing but ranging (did he even have a bow?)

[Aranticus]

Ranger was a gamekeeper in the 14th century England, though the meaning evolved to mean a soldier who ranges over a region to protect the area or enforce the law ("range" meaning "travel around an area")

wikipedia

[Aspenor]

Agreed, i think they should Rename "Rangers" to "Two Feapon Fighters" and redo the "ranger" class to make it "ranged" specced. I very rarely see a ranger "ranging" if i do i pause and wonder just how gimped he really is, or maybe hes just a noob?

The RANGE in RANGEr means traveler, as he is expected to "range across the country."

It has literally nothing to do with ranged weapons. You want to make rangers into ARCHERS. Big difference.

[Kintro]

k i have a question about rangers and monk. Rangers that have a splash of monk in them seem to be better then full monks. They are getting the wisdom ac bonus for splashing monk in them and can get a higher ac then a pure monk. They can output better dps then a monk, have almost the same save still have evasion. So all in all its better to go ranger/splash monk then pure monk. Well for pnp monks are meant to have the highest ac and best saves. This is what i think, that monks should have a higher ac then a ranger and this is how they should fix it. The monk wisdom bonus only increase your ac if your centered that would fix the probelm right there. But for rangers, rangers are meant to be deadly with a bow, dont make them better at melee cause thats all u see nowadays are melee rangers increase the bow ability and when i say that give bow rangers something that no one else can get like a possible instant kill cause u hit the enemy in the heart or some kind of linger damage. Tell me what u all think about this and what u think should happen between these two classes.

I'm just waiting for them to change it so your wis AC bonus is wis mod * monk level/total level rounded down. Similar to how Wiz/Clr with a splash of sorc doesn't get the full double of your sp items.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I'm just waiting for them to change it so your wis AC bonus is wis mod * monk level/total level rounded down. Similar to how Wiz/Clr with a splash of sorc doesn't get the full double of your sp items.

I wonder how those d20 rolls will work when your AC is a floating point number.

Garth

[baddax]

Agreed, then change the name to archer for ranged specc'd class.
I never realized where the "ranger" came from ie. Roaming. So these Medevil rangers were twf/ranged specialst combatants? Sorry, you have me at a loss for info will have to get back to you once i do more reasearch, and thanks for the info!

[baddax]

Ranger was a gamekeeper in the 14th century England, though the meaning evolved to mean a soldier who ranges over a region to protect the area or enforce the law ("range" meaning "travel around an area")

wikipedia


What exactly is a Gamekeeper? ie as in cattle?

[baddax]

So the ranger is akin to the Forest Ranger or the Texas rangers ie. police.....Sorry guys dropped the ball on that one lol!

[GlassCannon]

Forums Stick of Greater Troll Bane doesn't work! They just regenerate and come back in droves...

I see a lot of opinions in this thread and absolutely no facts(Edit: Like how a Monk deals 2d8 per hit at GTWF at lvl 16 before any bonuses like Handwraps or Secondary damage, or how valuable Abundant Step and Walk of the Sun are in combat).

So, I'll ignore it and move along, chalking it up as wasted space and irritating repetition of support of a clearly BROKEN mechanic that people like to exploit.



I doubt you'd want to see a Ranger in a black and white Wagon, wearing his black Ranger outfit with his Badge and Repeating Crossbow... Wait, no.... that might actually be somewhat awesome.

[branmakmuffin]

I wonder how those d20 rolls will work when your AC is a floating point number.
Use floating d20s.

[bandyman1]

What exactly is a Gamekeeper? ie as in cattle?

Deer, foxes, rabbits, grouse, ect.

Under the feudal system, nobles and Kings had large tracts of forested land set aside for their own hunting. Hunting ones lands was considered a noble and proper hobby for the upper classes. Some people were given the job of overseeing the game populations in those lands, and of policing them to make sure no one else was hunting on them.

[Balkas]

Greensteel handwraps would go a loooooooong way in helping out monks.

[CrimsonEagle]

Did I hear ranger?

Here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwsBcrYgIZE&feature=related

Edit. As you notice...he is NOT carrying a bow. :p

[baddax]

Greensteel handwraps would go a loooooooong way in helping out monks.

IMO, there will not be greensteel handwraps just like there will not be transmuting handwraps(functional). Because its to easy to exploit ie why go 15 or 16 monk for adamantine (or 17-18 for silver) strike when there is transmuting or greensteel handwraps?

[baddax]

My mistake i truly confused Ranger with Archer lol!
I guess the fact that they had ranged abilities i assumed they were Archers, like robin hood!

[Balkas]

IMO, there will not be greensteel handwraps just like there will not be transmuting handwraps(functional). Because its to easy to exploit ie why go 15 or 16 monk for adamantine (or 17-18 for silver) strike when there is transmuting or greensteel handwraps?

Monk fists increase in damage the higher the level they are.

[Mhykke]

Monk fists increase in damage the higher the level they are.

Also to become a lawful outsider at 20, which is pretty cool.

[honkuimushi]

k i have a question about rangers and monk. Rangers that have a splash of monk in them seem to be better then full monks. They are getting the wisdom ac bonus for splashing monk in them and can get a higher ac then a pure monk. They can output better dps then a monk, have almost the same save still have evasion. So all in all its better to go ranger/splash monk then pure monk. Well for pnp monks are meant to have the highest ac and best saves. This is what i think, that monks should have a higher ac then a ranger and this is how they should fix it. The monk wisdom bonus only increase your ac if your centered that would fix the probelm right there. But for rangers, rangers are meant to be deadly with a bow, dont make them better at melee cause thats all u see nowadays are melee rangers increase the bow ability and when i say that give bow rangers something that no one else can get like a possible instant kill cause u hit the enemy in the heart or some kind of linger damage. Tell me what u all think about this and what u think should happen between these two classes.


I think you're a bit off on some of this.


They are getting the wisdom ac bonus for splashing monk in them and can get a higher ac then a pure monk.

The only thing that a Ranger/ Monk has in terms of AC over a pure Monk is Tempest, which tops out at +4. The pure Monk will get the same +4 from levels. However in PnP, that extra bonus starts at level 5 so I wouldn't mind delaying it and maybe giving Monks a couple of enhancments to improve it like Paladins get, maybe starting at level 3. The other things like a dex enhancement is countered by the Monk's wisdom enhancement.



They can output better dps then a monk, have almost the same save still have evasion.

DPS is an issue, but it really depends on build choices. Archer Ranger or Tempest? Finesse vs. Strength. Did you go Khopesh? What Favored Enemies do you have? I think you'll find that to really go for AC you have to go finesse and that really lowers your DPS. Conversely, while you can get a decent AC with a dual khopesh DPS build, you're not going to be close to a pure Monk. Some build just drop dex for strength and con and count on the Ranger feats for dual wielding. Of course the Monk's AC will also depend on build and the choice of strength or dex.

Now I will agree that Monks do lack a bit of DPS. The lack of a Green Steel option is one issue. You also have the issues of some types of Handwraps not working, not having enough time for good Handwraps to accumulate in the game and a lack of Monk piercing weapons and righ crit range weapons so things like puncturing and WoP are missing or not very effective. The reacent addition of TWF feats to unarmed combat was a good first step. But one thing that I think should be implemented is Greater flurry at level 11.

Also remember that Monks don't just get evasion(and at a much earlier point as well) but also Improved Evasion. Infact, a pure Monk will get Improved Evasion 1 level earlier than a Ranger X/ Monk 1 will get regular Evasion.

Other people have pointed out most of the other issues with your statements. I would also like to point out that a Monk can splash other classes and gain benefits from them. You could take 6 levels of Ranger for the TWF feats, Diehard and Tempest I. The tempest benefits don't work unarmed, but you can make a real dervish with wounding or vorpal kamas.

If AC and saves are your thing, take a couple of Paladin levels. You get +2 to AC from 3 levels of Paladin and the ability to add your charisma bonus to saves. Even if you start with an 8 charisma, a +6 item will give you +2 to saves and the opportunity to increase it with tomes and enhancements. You also get Lay on Hands and wand use.

Step back a bit and look at the whole forrest, not just the individual trees.

[baddax]

Monk fists increase in damage the higher the level they are.

Witch was partially my point as GreenSteel Items bump the Damage Dice up. This would probably cause coding problems as different level monks would do different dmg.

Hell im still waiting on my Weakening Enfeebling to work and its ben how many months?!?!

[noinfo]

k i have a question about rangers and monk. Rangers that have a splash of monk in them seem to be better then full monks. They are getting the wisdom ac bonus for splashing monk in them and can get a higher ac then a pure monk. They can output better dps then a monk, have almost the same save still have evasion. So all in all its better to go ranger/splash monk then pure monk. Well for pnp monks are meant to have the highest ac and best saves. This is what i think, that monks should have a higher ac then a ranger and this is how they should fix it. The monk wisdom bonus only increase your ac if your centered that would fix the probelm right there. But for rangers, rangers are meant to be deadly with a bow, dont make them better at melee cause thats all u see nowadays are melee rangers increase the bow ability and when i say that give bow rangers something that no one else can get like a possible instant kill cause u hit the enemy in the heart or some kind of linger damage. Tell me what u all think about this and what u think should happen between these two classes.

What people seem to forget about those rangers with really high ac monk splashes is that to get a real benefit for ac from a monk splash is that they have to put a pretty decent amount of stat points into wisdom. This does sigificantly alter their dps (not killing ability), this means that on top of all the other stat items they also have to have a wis one as well. That ac doesn't come free despite what people think. Someone with a 10 wis +2 tome and +6 item gets +4 bonus ac. Someone with a 16 +2 tome +6 item gets a 7 bonus, but has had to sacrifice to get that 16 wis, dps and hp suffer. This is not much different to those who sacrifice 2 levels to get rogue 2 for evasion and to unlock umd.

The highest ac in game i believe is a pure monk, though they need support buffs to reach this (if not highest close to it)
Rangers are not Archers as pointed out by others in the thread.

The reason that these rangers dominate melee so much despite their low st is because the most powerful weapons wop rapiers are finessable. They don't need a high str to dominate. This is not a call for a wop nerf but the simple truth behind why in most cases rangers rule melee.

[Mhykke]

The reason that these rangers dominate melee so much despite their low st is because the most powerful weapons wop rapiers are finessable. They don't need a high str to dominate. This is not a call for a wop nerf but the simple truth behind why in most cases rangers rule melee.

Well I agree that can be part of it, but that's not the whole reason. Rangers can afford to take a little off strength, b/c they gain so much vs. favored enemies. If you start with a 16 or 14 str even, that's only 1 or 2 damage per hit off of where you'd be starting with an 18, but you're getting +12 each hand vs. favored enemies where others don't. That's pretty big.

[noinfo]

Well I agree that can be part of it, but that's not the whole reason. Rangers can afford to take a little off strength, b/c they gain so much vs. favored enemies. If you start with a 16 or 14 str even, that's only 1 or 2 damage per hit off of where you'd be starting with an 18, but you're getting +12 each hand vs. favored enemies where others don't. That's pretty big.

Very true, this wouldn't be so bad if we had further mob types but as it stands it does make a big difference.

[QuantumFX]

Monk fists increase in damage the higher the level they are.

And the tier 4 stances available at lvl 18.

[GlassCannon]

Use floating d20s.

That or a Rounding function in the AC presented by the Client to the Server

[branmakmuffin]

That or a Rounding function in the AC presented by the Client to the Server
I was making a joke. You sound like you're not. In any event, I'm sure a computer can handle ACs that are not whole numbers.

[Draccus]

No one disagrees that rangers are overpowered in DDO and, in a shock to anyone paying attention, are going to get even more overpowered at level 18. Like someone mentioned above, Rangers are DDO's darling.

They are already the most popular class in the game and are about to get even more popular with the ridiculous Tempest III. All you can do is be one of the FOTM crowd or play something else and accept the fact that raid leaders are going to want rangers for DPS.

I would rather not play than play the same identical class as everyone else but to each his own.

[vainangel]

Ah!
But everyone will play the same build in different ways.

[Draccus]

Ah!
But everyone will play the same build in different ways.

ROFL

Raid Leader: Ok, who'd going to take the named?
Ranger 1: I'll attack the named. I've got high AC and great DPS.
Ranger 2: I'll attack the named. I've got high AC and great DPS.
Ranger 3: I'll attack the named. I've got high AC and great DPS.
Ranger 4: I'll attack the named. I've got high AC and great DPS.
Ranger 5: I'll attack the named. I've got high AC and great DPS.
Ranger 6: I'll attack the named. I've got high AC and great DPS.
Ranger 7: I'll attack the named. I've got high AC and great DPS.
Ranger 8: I'll attack the named. I've got high AC and great DPS.
Ranger 9: I'll attack the named. I've got high AC and great DPS.
Ranger 10: I'll attack the named. I've got high AC and great DPS.
Ranger 11: I'll attack the named. I've got high AC and great DPS.

[vainangel]

You have that many Tempest Rangers in a raid?
I often let the players who want to hero label do such things. I am happy being a protector of the casters. Unless I am asked to do something else. I think that is what a good DPS high AC character should be doing anyway. You want that cleric to live!!!!

If everyone is hacking the boss...who chases after the stray attacking your cleric??

[brool]

You're kidding, right? If you need someone to win a long jump competition, bring a monk; otherwise, bring anything else.

Monk = great AC, crappy DPS
Ranger = good AC, great DPS
Ranger/1 monk = best of both worlds

There is no reason to take more than 1 level of monk. Ever.

you are so wrong on so many levels. Monks just get so over looked, i'd laugh when my monk outkills your ranger in a kill count... My quivering palm goes off quicker than your wop or dps can take a non red named target out. Whats that you cant keep up with me and are 3 turns behind me in the dungeon just coming across dead bodies and nothing to kill. Ya that was a monk infront of you.... Its all about the player not the class. I cant tell you how many time's wongs lead kc in a shroud run.

[branmakmuffin]

you are so wrong on so many levels. Monks just get so over looked, i'd laugh when my monk outkills your ranger in a kill count... My quivering palm goes off quicker than your wop or dps can take a non red named target out. Whats that you cant keep up with me and are 3 turns behind me in the dungeon just coming across dead bodies and nothing to kill. Ya that was a monk infront of you.... Its all about the player not the class. I cant tell you how many time's wongs lead kc in a shroud run.
And we all know it's about kill count. :rolleyes:

[notforyou]

You're kidding, right? If you need someone to win a long jump competition, bring a monk; otherwise, bring anything else.

Monk = great AC, crappy DPS
Ranger = good AC, great DPS
Ranger/1 monk = best of both worlds

There is no reason to take more than 1 level of monk. Ever.

monks have good dps if u know how to build them. also dont forget the awesome saves they have, my monk at lvl 4 had saves that were 16 20 19. also monk ac is by far best in the game: e.g. my lvl 4 monk with 40 ac.

[bandyman1]

monks have good dps if u know how to build them. also dont forget the awesome saves they have, my monk at lvl 4 had saves that were 16 20 19. also monk ac is by far best in the game: e.g. my lvl 4 monk with 40 ac.

Depends on your definition of " good DPS ".

And no; You aren't outkilling or out DPSing a properly built ranger.

[Korvek]

you are so wrong on so many levels. Monks just get so over looked, i'd laugh when my monk outkills your ranger in a kill count... My quivering palm goes off quicker than your wop or dps can take a non red named target out. Whats that you cant keep up with me and are 3 turns behind me in the dungeon just coming across dead bodies and nothing to kill. Ya that was a monk infront of you.... Its all about the player not the class. I cant tell you how many time's wongs lead kc in a shroud run.

They put you on Roamer duty? :p