Mod 9 Is The Ranged Character Killer

[Dorian]

What are ranged people getting in Mod 9?

You will see an extra attack for melees at BAB20. Extra attack for TWF tempest rangers. Improved glancing blows for THF fighters and WF. And the list goes on for melee getting better (as it should when you get higher level).

My question is... What will ranged characters get?

You are going to get laughed out of a group if you are a ranger and you start plinking away with a bow. I'm not just talking about rangers, I'm including all classes that want to use a ranged weapon (like that repeater bard, etc).

[Strakeln]

You are going to get laughed out of a group if you are a ranger and you start plinking away with a bow. I'm not just talking about rangers, I'm including all classes that want to use a ranged weapon (like that repeater bard, etc).They don't already?

[bobbryan2]

You are going to get laughed out of a group if you are a ranger and you start plinking away with a bow. I'm not just talking about rangers, I'm including all classes that want to use a ranged weapon (like that repeater bard, etc).

Well, if those people would put away the bow and pull out a pair of dwarven axes, they wouldn't get laughed out of groups, now would they....

[Turial]

...
My question is... What will ranged characters get?


Unless my theory on capped weapon speed is correct ranged combat will see a slight ROA increase as they typically do each time melee gets an additional attack.

[Dorian]

Unless my theory on capped weapon speed is correct ranged combat will see a slight ROA increase as they typically do each time melee gets an additional attack.

After BAB10... the increased rate of fire for ranged weapons is barely noticeable.

I would like to see rate of fire charts comparing bab10/bab16.

[maddmatt70]

The best change they could make to range combat is stealth increasing the rate of fire. This has nothing to do with prestige enhancements, gear, or anything else...

[Mercules]

Well, if those people would put away the bow and pull out a pair of dwarven axes, they wouldn't get laughed out of groups, now would they....

Funny... I laugh at melee characters chasing casters all over the place swinging futilely because of the messed up moving hit boxes. Precise Shot is so handy for taking out Casters quickly.

[bobbryan2]

Funny... I laugh at melee characters chasing casters all over the place swinging futilely because of the messed up moving hit boxes. Precise Shot is so handy for taking out Casters quickly.

Huh... most casters don't have time to run away from me...

I dunno...

[Brutous]

"Why run? You will just die tired."

"Zig-Zag Running is not going to help you, I have 200 Arrows."

[Raithe]

After BAB10... the increased rate of fire for ranged weapons is barely noticeable.

I would like to see rate of fire charts comparing bab10/bab16.

My unhasted BAB 11 bard fires 42 times per minute. My unhasted BAB 16 ranger fires 54 times per minute. Some of this is due to the rapid shot feat (which apparently does not stack with haste), but that is a very significant difference. The actual difference (not including the feat) is probably around 6 firings a minute, or about a 14% increase.

Lets go over some things about ranged combat that the "uber" people don't seem to know:

1) Repeater ranged builds with very good equipment don't get laughed out of groups. They make everyone else in the group look obsolete. A wounding of puncturing repeater crits on a 17-20 with the improved critical feat, and I believe its firing rate with the right feats is similar to one-handed swinging (don't have a repeater character to test it with, but that was the last I heard).

2) Manyshot on a regular bow user increases the attacks per minute to be similar to two-handed swinging. The burst rate, however, blows most other non-spellpoint DPS out of the water. A double min II khopesh swinging strength-based tempest ranger will top out at around 200 DPS (damage per second) versus favored enemies with a lot of buffs. A tier 3 greensteel bow with manyshot will hit somewhere around 210 DPS, by my calculations, for 20 seconds - but that is against a single target. With improved precise shot it can actually go much, much, higher.

3) Ranged combat is a situational combat style. Everyone should be carrying some type of ranged weapon, if only to throw at ceiling levers. Everyone should also be carrying melee weapons, too. It's just the way D&D is played, and IMO is quite realistic.

If ranged combat were made to be as "viable" as what some people are asking, it would negate the need for melee, almost completely.

[adamr09]

ya they are gonna have to add something really amazing to get ranged combat up to par with endgame melee (which i have been hoping for a LONG time.) hopefully deepwood sniper II and III will be super awesome

[smyter]

My archer is 1 ranger/15 fighter. I did this for the str bonuses and the weapon specialization. I use the fighter feats to get the manyshot, imp precise shot, etc. I would have kept him pure fighter is bow strength was an available feat. I am looking forward to the kenasi line. Nonetheless, I think that mod 9 will not be a ranged character killer. Especially if I get another arrow in my manyshot at BAB 20.

[Mercules]

Huh... most casters don't have time to run away from me...

I dunno...

You mean after you have dodged and hopped over the non-casting mobs, right? Me, I just plunk them the moment I see them no matter what mob is between myself and them. The other nice thing is I will agro them and swing wide from the group or hang back so if they throw Comet Falls or other AoE it doesn't hit the whole group instead of 3 Melee characters charging, in a group at the caster and getting all whacked by a spell. ;)

Or we could just agree you are uber and do things the game engine doesn't make possible like moving through mobs, instantly teleporting to casters, and killing them in one swing.

[Dorian]

My unhasted BAB 11 bard fires 42 times per minute. My unhasted BAB 16 ranger fires 54 times per minute. Some of this is due to the rapid shot feat (which apparently does not stack with haste), but that is a very significant difference. The actual difference (not including the feat) is probably around 6 firings a minute, or about a 14% increase.


Not a good comparison (as you noted) one has rapid shot and one does not.

[Dorian]

ya they are gonna have to add something really amazing to get ranged combat up to par with endgame melee (which i have been hoping for a LONG time.) hopefully deepwood sniper II and III will be super awesome

This is what I DON'T want to see. I would prefer a ranged update that worked fro all classes using a ranged weapon. Not just a ranger with deepwood or arcane archer.

Were not asking to be just as good as melee.... just not so FAR behind.

[NXPlasmid]

I think some shortening of the cooldown timer on multishot would be really nice. Increased ROF would hurt either.

[Raithe]

Not a good comparison (as you noted) one has rapid shot and one does not.

Ok, some more data, just obtained:

1) My bard fires 52 arrows per minute hasted.
2) My ranger fires 58 arrows per minute hasted.
3) My bard with Tensor's and haste fires 58 arrows per minute.

The difference is 6 arrows/minute, or a 14% increase unhasted - 12% w/ haste.

[bobbryan2]

You mean after you have dodged and hopped over the non-casting mobs, right? Me, I just plunk them the moment I see them no matter what mob is between myself and them. The other nice thing is I will agro them and swing wide from the group or hang back so if they throw Comet Falls or other AoE it doesn't hit the whole group instead of 3 Melee characters charging, in a group at the caster and getting all whacked by a spell. ;)

Or we could just agree you are uber and do things the game engine doesn't make possible like moving through mobs, instantly teleporting to casters, and killing them in one swing.

Okay, we can agree I'm uber.

[Baltire]

1) Repeater ranged builds with very good equipment don't get laughed out of groups. They make everyone else in the group look obsolete. A wounding of puncturing repeater crits on a 17-20 with the improved critical feat, and I believe its firing rate with the right feats is similar to one-handed swinging (don't have a repeater character to test it with, but that was the last I heard).


I do have a strictly repeater using build, and can say that atm, in most quests, when I care about kill counts (which is rarely), I can lead them....

Ranged combat has never been bad, people just dont use weapons that will be to their advantage.

A weakening/enfeebling, str sapping, wounding/puncturing and crippling repeater can get you through most encounters.

As for damage, you will never be the highest damage dealer in the party, and if you are, run.

But you can do good damage nonetheless.

A lightning 2 repeater, or an alignment based/greater bane weapon can score some decent numbers.

The problem with most ranged builds is that it takes a great deal of patience to lvl them and even more patience while you get all the gear and weapons you need.

[Turial]

After BAB10... the increased rate of fire for ranged weapons is barely noticeable.

I would like to see rate of fire charts comparing bab10/bab16.

Like I said if my theory is wrong there would be a increase. I'm pretty sure my theory is correct.

BAB 16 = 47 attacks per min
BAB 10 = 40-43 ish (Been awhile since I was level 10)

[Aesop]

Has Turbine made the announcement that BAB 20 is adding to the attack chain?

I haven't seen that one... it certainly would hurt a number of MC builds out there

Especially since PnP caps Attacks per Round when characters hit BAB 16 leaving some room for MC builds to fit in things they want to with out crippling them.


oh quick ranged thing

DDO Ranged Combat

OK so the numbers show a distinct lack of DPS in the Ranged department. This is a large contributing factor to making Ranged combat limited in application. In order to make Ranged viable we need to increase its base DPS and its Specialized DPS significantly without overpowering it.

The fun part is in PnP Ranged has as much if not more potential to do damage than single weapon combat does and the only thing that really balances that (in the Core rules) is that Ranged attacks don't have use of the Power Attack Feat and the limitation on the Strength output of the Bow they are using. With Rapid Shot in PnP Archers effectively fire as fast as a hasted single weapon fighter.

Here the feeling is that Ranged would be overpowered if they attack as fast as Melee because they have little risk of direct melee attack. Although in current end game this concern is fairly unfounded as all NPCs but animals have a ranged attack and several of the Mobs have accelerated movement or outright teleportation to catch up with the Archer. A "simple" AI fix to help alleviate the kiting issue would be to have Mobs shoot there ranged weapons while moving towards their intended target.

The simplest way to improve Ranged DPS is to increase the RoA (Rate of Attack). If nothing else of the suggestions the player base have made regarding this issue are taken this one needs to be implemented. Right now we attack slower with ranged weapons than with a single melee weapon of any variety (including the slowest of the slow the Falchion). If we Spend TWO Feat to take Rapid Shot (Rapid Shot has the requirement to take Point Blank Shot unless you are a second level Ranger) we are still firing slower than the slowest Melee weapon.

If we improve AI to include ranged attacking while approaching targets there is no reason to not improve Player Ranged Combat to a full RoA. The rest of the improvements are all subjective at that point. Whether we make Many Shot a stance or a Single Shot Clicky with a 6-10 second cooldown will be largely irrelevant. Whether we include Improved Rapid Shot or not won't matter nearly as much. The core of the Ranged Attackers woes is the RoA.


Changes: Important (1)
1. Improve Mob AI to use Ranged Attacks while approaching
2. Increase Bow RoA to comparable levels with Melee Weapons

Changes: Slightly Less Important (2)
3. Sweeping changes to Deepwoods Sniper first tier... some ideas for this
a. Stacking Seeker +4
b. Increase "Point Blank" range
c. Increase Damage +2
d. Sniper Shot +2 Critical Multiplier
e. +1 Hide Move Silently and Spot

4. Many Shot needs a change
a. Single Shot with a 6-10 second cooldown and to hit penalties
b. Stance with RoA reduction and associated penalties
c. Stance style with a chained volley of Many Shot added to normal attacks every 10 sec.





Ranged Combat Suggestions

Ranged Combat Rebalancing: Ranged Combat feels like an after thought that is the bastard stepchild of an abusive alcoholic schizophrenic. It still needs a little love but it doesn't seem to get any at home. So put the stepparent on prozac and lets get by this.

a. RoF: I've posted this a number of times but here it goes again. The RoF of Ranged attacks is far too low relative to Melee. I understand that Melee actually has to be up close and personal with the baduns so risk taking more damage vrs ranged who is well... ranging. However that is a benefit of Ranged combat. The benefits of Melee vary a little. Sword and Shield has better blocking DR when they use it and are great for Intimitank play. They also typically have heavier armor options and Shields can carry other useful effect on them like Deathblock or Resistances. Two Handed Fighters do Strength and 1 Half Damage and get glancing blows for a bunch more damage. Two Weapon Fighters are the Quisinarts of the DDO world and attack a huge number of times (though possibly more than they should). That said the following should be considered.

1. Change the base RoF of Ranged attacks to 60% that of Sword and Shield Melee(hence forth with regard to Ranged RoF referred to as Melee). (if melee swings 100 times in a minute then Archers and thrown weapons should fire off 60 shots without any modifiers)

2.Rapid Shot should increase the RoF to 75% that of Melee

3.The Feat Improved Rapid Shot should be implemented to give an additional 10% bringing Ranged to 85% the RoF of Melee

4. Manyshot should be changed to a Stance with the following conditions and modifiers.
4a. Many Shot cannot be used in conjunction with Rapid Shot or Improved Rapid Shot thus reducing the RoF back down to 60% Melee.
4b. Numbers of Arrows used should be selectable with limitations by BAB. 2 at BAB 6, 3 at BAB 11, and 4 at BAB 16.
4c. Each arrow should give a cumulative penalty. I suggest -2 to hit for the first additional arrow and -1 for each beyond that and a RoF penalty of -5% per additional arrow thus reducing the RoF of a Many Shot to 45% at BAB 16 with 4 Arrows flying and a -4 to hit penalty. (note: In PnP Many Shot is a Standard Action which means it can only be fired once per round and comes with a penalty of -8 for firing 4 arrows at the same time. While this (sorta) works in PnP in a Real Time MMO the penalty would be slightly out of balance with the rest of combat to have the RoF reduced to 20% melee)

b. Ammunition: Ranged needs a better selection of Ammunition.
1. Basic Elemental types should be made available to purchase. Flaming, Frost, Acid and Shock. Favor Rewards should be implemented to make available other ammunition types (Holy, Axiomatic, Burst effect, Cursespewing etc... almost any weapon effect can be placed on ammunition)

2. From the SRD
Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost. I would like this translated into all normal ammo being 10% returning and Masterwork and magic being 15%(or more) returning.

Range: Range and distance seem a bit off right now.

1. Please increase the Range increments. As it stands now, Point Blank Shot only kicks in at a range almost being able to swing a sword at the critter I'm attacking. 30 ft seems much closer to 10.

2. Also add in Range Increments. Even if it is only 5 of them with the ranges being touch, short, medium, long and extreme. Throwing a hammer from across the valley shouldn't hit as effectively as an Arrow from 10 ft. This brings me to the next part

3. Penalties. have penalties kick in beyond medium range. -2 for long range and -4 for extreme. let Point Blank range be within the Short Range category.

4. Implement Far Shot as a Feat. Have Far Shot increase the effective range of Point Blank Shot to Medium and decrease penalties by 2. (note let this also affect Sneak Attack range)

Bow Strength: I understand that when first starting it appeared that rangers needed a little love... and they might have. I also understand that in an environment where crafting was not existent that requiring Composite bows that match your characters strength could get problematic. However making Archery a Ranger only ability is a bad bad thing. If you needed to, just add Bow Strength to Point Blank Shot and give the Bow Strength to rangers anyway (since they bypass PBS and go straight on to Rapid Shot). Fighters and other range Centric characters shouldn't need to splash Ranger to make an archer.

With some of the new Capstone Enhancements coming up the Bow Strength thing has got to GO. Add it to Point Blank Shot so not everyone who makes an Archer HAS to splash a level of Ranger... its annoying


Aesop

[bigj1608]

If ranged combat were made to be as "viable" as what some people are asking, it would negate the need for melee, almost completely.

I stopped reading here, and I completely agree. If ranged dps matched up with melee dps, there would be no reason to melee.

[Monkeytoe]

I stopped reading here, and I completely agree. If ranged dps matched up with melee dps, there would be no reason to melee.

Sure there would: Its less work to stand toe to toe with a mob that can't hit your AC than it is to properly kite it around. Kiting there is always the chance you'll screw up and get hit, but standing still in an AC barrel there is no chance you'll get hit.

Melee will always appeal to the lazy... And ranged will only appeal to the crazy :-)


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Make dex effect ranged attack speed

[bobbryan2]

Sure there would: Its less work to stand toe to toe with a mob that can't hit your AC than it is to properly kite it around. Kiting there is always the chance you'll screw up and get hit, but standing still in an AC barrel there is no chance you'll get hit.

Melee will always appeal to the lazy... And ranged will only appeal to the crazy :-)


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Make dex effect ranged attack speed

If I could do as much damage with a bow and never get hit as with dual lightning strike dwarven axes.... no... there's no reason to EVER pull out a melee weapon.

[moorewr]

No question to me that ranged, even with rapid shot and manyshot has fallen too far behind. The question for ranged rangers is what Deepwood Sniper and Arcane Archer bring to the table.

All we know on that score is that AA is being upgraded in Mod 9, will potentially have fireball arrows (!), and that the 5th tier is at level 20.

As far as game balance questions.. ranged is the DPS king on the table-top.. and certainly we can't go that far because of the AI and the real-time nature of DDO. But to say we need to be like other MMOs and weaken ranged without debating what that means for the D&D part of the games mission is too simplistic.

[Monkeytoe]

If I could do as much damage with a bow and never get hit as with dual lightning strike dwarven axes.... no... there's no reason to EVER pull out a melee weapon.

If the average archer could do anything and never get hit I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be impressed. But mostly I've just seen aspiring rangers grabbing aggro, fleeing in terror to the far ends of the instance, and dying.

Even if ranged attacks did DOUBLE melee damage, most players would fail miserably enough on the "And Never Get Hit" part of your equation that ranged-specced characters would remain the exception to the rule of casters and melee-ers.

Ranged fighting is more work than melee fighting.

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Make dex effect ranged attack speed.

[Dorian]

I stopped reading here, and I completely agree. If ranged dps matched up with melee dps, there would be no reason to melee.

No one is asking it to be the same dps as melee. Just asking for some balance here.

[Delt]

1) Repeater ranged builds with very good equipment don't get laughed out of groups. They make everyone else in the group look obsolete. A wounding of puncturing repeater crits on a 17-20 with the improved critical feat, and I believe its firing rate with the right feats is similar to one-handed swinging (don't have a repeater character to test it with, but that was the last I heard).

2) Manyshot on a regular bow user increases the attacks per minute to be similar to two-handed swinging. The burst rate, however, blows most other non-spellpoint DPS out of the water. A double min II khopesh swinging strength-based tempest ranger will top out at around 200 DPS (damage per second) versus favored enemies with a lot of buffs. A tier 3 greensteel bow with manyshot will hit somewhere around 210 DPS, by my calculations, for 20 seconds - but that is against a single target. With improved precise shot it can actually go much, much, higher.


I do have a strictly repeater using build, and can say that atm, in most quests, when I care about kill counts (which is rarely), I can lead them....

Lol...man, the comedy you ready on the forums sometimes is absolute gold.

[itsmezed72]

What are ranged people getting in Mod 9?

You will see an extra attack for melees at BAB20. Extra attack for TWF tempest rangers. Improved glancing blows for THF fighters and WF. And the list goes on for melee getting better (as it should when you get higher level).

My question is... What will ranged characters get?

You are going to get laughed out of a group if you are a ranger and you start plinking away with a bow. I'm not just talking about rangers, I'm including all classes that want to use a ranged weapon (like that repeater bard, etc).

Does that include my archer, Jyndra, who can 'plink' for 200+ at a clip? :D

That being said, I am hoping for an extension of the Deepwood Sniper line for her. Staying cautiously optimistic....

[cdbd3rd]

Lotsa folks still ranging... :confused:
I get too frustrated dealing with the ammo bug(s) that I constantly get hit with.

:rolleyes:

[Gol]

funny, I thought mod 0 killed ranged combat... (anybody else remember the machine gun beta days?)

[Ranmaru2]

Madstone Boots + Haste + Fighter Haste Boost with a repeater = Machine Gun

Just an observation from using my dex fighter. There seems to be a significant increase in reload/fire rate with all 3 of these going (or any combo of the two). I've yet to try her with rapid reload or quick draw, but I'm imagining that the rate of fire might be upgraded to (almost) chain gun status. Maybe I should test that out...

[transtemporal]

OP, I personally think ranged combat was dead in DDO before mod 9 was even announced. The conclusion I came to in both my PnP group and DDO group is that the relative safety the ranged combat style gives you isn't worth the extra time it takes you to kill mobs and the aggravation it causes the rest of the party as they chase your kited mobs around the dungeon.

I'm not ragging on anyone who has an uber ranged build with w/p or whatever (and I have played with a few really good ones). Its just that the strength of the ranged playstyle is maintaining distance between you and a big group of mobs (to make the most use of improved precise shot) so most people just run backwards the entire time, taking the mobs AWAY from the solid fog, firewall, dancing ball chokepoints and making the melees chase the mobs. Oh, and don't you dare intimidate the mobs off him, hes got it under control, lol. :rolleyes:

A little OT there sorry OP. :)

[Ranmaru2]

...the aggravation it causes the rest of the party as they chase your kited mobs around the dungeon.

I'm not ragging on anyone who has an uber ranged build with w/p or whatever (and I have played with a few really good ones). Its just that the strength of the ranged playstyle is maintaining distance between you and a big group of mobs (to make the most use of improved precise shot) so most people just run backwards the entire time, taking the mobs AWAY from the solid fog, firewall, dancing ball chokepoints and making the melees chase the mobs. Oh, and don't you dare intimidate the mobs off him, hes got it under control

Maybe if they would stop being stupid and continue on there wouldn't be any time lost on the quest...

[Angelus_dead]

Maybe if they would stop being stupid and continue on there wouldn't be any time lost on the quest...
So then they go ahead and do the rest of it without waiting for a "contribution" from the archer, who is functioning as an empty slot. And that's a good thing?

[krud]

If I could do as much damage with a bow and never get hit as with dual lightning strike dwarven axes.... no... there's no reason to EVER pull out a melee weapon.

So, you mean all those rgr/mnk splashes would feel compelled to reroll an archer? The build is irrelevant, it is only the means to an end. :rolleyes:

[Ranmaru2]

So then they go ahead and do the rest of it without waiting for a "contribution" from the archer, who is functioning as an empty slot. And that's a good thing?

Hey if the mobs die in a quick time and the Archer looks to be quite capable in his current kiting mode, then continue on. I hate hearing people tell ya to stop so they can hit the mob.

In a cleric's view, the guy asking the person to stop would stop getting heals for a little bit the moment he got aggro of something next so he could have a hard earned lesson on the importance of managing your life and maybe learning to DODGE or not having to fight every mob in existence.

In the view of the Archer, I'd just laugh and keep kiting, it prevents damage to others and allows others to deal with other mobs that A) aren't being kited and/or B) are further up the hallway. Knock out two birds with one stone.

Now if the archer is pretty bad at his kiting (getting hit quite a bit - even with devils its fairly easy to dodge them teleporting to you), then he should wait for the others to get aggro. Having run Relic/madstone/Pop hallways (perfect example) quite a few times kiting the enemy mobs with a Firewall or even a bow, I can't understand why tanks feel the need to put themselves into harm's way if the mobs are dying with little resources (sp/items) being used. It's a very ******** "MUST KILL" mentality.

Now if the caster has already explicitly explained the plan (which would include some sort of CC), then I can understand getting frustrated at someone who's not following directions, but getting mad at someone for an, often, resource free form of killing mobs is stupid.

[ArkoHighStar]

the key to saving ranged combat is changing many shot to a stance, with a selectable amount of arrows/penalty attached

2 arrows with a -4 attack
3 arrows with a -6 attack
4 arrows with a -8 attack


crit only on the first arrow
This brings it in line with pnp

The original reason many shot was made as a timed feat was due to graphics issues with having so many projectiles on screen at once, Eladrin stated that this has been resolved, and the only obstacle to this now is priority and programming time. He also stated he wanted to do something similiar with Combat Expertise to giveyou the option of choosing how much attack bonus to trade for AC.

[Angelus_dead]

the key to saving ranged combat is changing many shot to a stance, with a selectable amount of arrows/penalty attached
Well, that would save ranged and kill melee...


This brings it in line with pnp
The D&D manyshot feat doesn't increase your attack rate.

[ArkoHighStar]

Well, that would save ranged and kill melee...


The D&D manyshot feat doesn't increase your attack rate.

Make it a static attack rate then when using the stance, only thing that increases as you level is your number of arrows, or increase the penalty to -4/-8/-12, to diluate the effectiveness or firing more arrows, fire less arrows with more accuracy or more arrows with less accuracy

[Monkeytoe]

Does that include my archer, Jyndra, who can 'plink' for 200+ at a clip? :D


*Rolls d20*

*Disbelieves that any archer can plink for 200+ at a clip*

Unless by clip you mean "stack of 100".

[Darth_Sizzle]

they Don't Already?

Lol

Qft

[Dorian]

*Rolls d20*

*Disbelieves that any archer can plink for 200+ at a clip*

Unless by clip you mean "stack of 100".

yes, I would like to see those numbers as well.

[riexau]

yes, I would like to see those numbers as well.

In a perfect world...

Str: 18 (base) + 4 (levels) + 3 (tome) + 6 (item) + 2 (rams) + 2 (rage) + 4 (madstone) + 1 (human/abbot/+4 tome) = 40
Bonus dmg: 12 (fe) + 2 (rams) + 5 (bow) + 2 (elf) + 10 (bard) + 15 (str) = 46

Bow dmg: d8 + 46 = 54x3 = 162
Alignment dmg: 2d6 = 12
Greater bane bow: 3d6 = 18
Greater bane arrows: 3d6 = 18

162 + 12 + 18 + 18 = 210

Of course, that's using a +2 alignment of greater bane bow with different greater bane arrows against a fe with no dr.

As said, a perfect world.

[Freeman]

...+ 10 (bard)...

Minor detail, but a bard's bonus damage tops out at +8 currently, or +6 for non-Warchanter bards.

[riexau]

Minor detail, but a bard's bonus damage tops out at +8 currently, or +6 for non-Warchanter bards.

Can take 6 dmg off the top then. 204

I also calculated +2 greater bane as +5 equil, when it's really +6 (need coffee). We're in a perfect world, let's just make it +5 (+9), so add +12 dmg onto the end.

= 216

[Cherry]

Who has the time to switch out to greater bane arrows? seriously.

[riexau]

Who has the time to switch out to greater bane arrows? seriously.

Didn't you hear? With 400 pirate king favor in mod9 you can buy elemental/greater bane arrows from the favor vendor.

[transtemporal]

Hey if the mobs die in a quick time and the Archer looks to be quite capable in his current kiting mode, then continue on. I hate hearing people tell ya to stop so they can hit the mob.

And hey if the archer's DPS is greater than the entire party put together, great, but thats not my experience. Generally, the archer is off in his own little world, going backwards, killing mobs slowly, while the rest of the group is going fowards then saying "OK mobs're dead, can you guys wait up?"

[Ranmaru2]

And hey if the archer's DPS is greater than the entire party put together, great, but thats not my experience. Generally, the archer is off in his own little world, going backwards, killing mobs slowly, while the rest of the group is going fowards then saying "OK mobs're dead, can you guys wait up?"

Wounding/WoP bows are wonderful for kiting :)

But I have to ask...what's so bad about Kiting?

[Angelus_dead]

But I have to ask...what's so bad about Kiting?
1. Looks stupid.
2. Slow.
3. Doesn't stack with melee and spells.
4. XXXXXXX

[Turial]

Wounding/WoP bows are wonderful for kiting :)

But I have to ask...what's so bad about Kiting?

Melees dont get that an archer type that is good at kiting will bring the mobs back to them...so they chase the mob going "wiff wiff" instead of "snicker snack."

In general though kiting does cause things to take longer then they would otherwise in a melee only party. A good application of crowd control should keep the mobs moving slow enough that stumpy the drunken dwarf (a real DDO character mind you) can catch them.

[Milolyen]

And hey if the archer's DPS is greater than the entire party put together, great, but thats not my experience. Generally, the archer is off in his own little world, going backwards, killing mobs slowly, while the rest of the group is going fowards then saying "OK mobs're dead, can you guys wait up?"

Really? generally my experience is. "Okay mobs are dead ... **** now where is that ranger?" ... me "Oh you guys are killing them? Sorry I don't stop for groups less than 10 to 15 mobs ... should I complete this without you or you want me to save the last fight for ya?"

Milolyen

[Angelus_dead]

Melees dont get that an archer type that is good at kiting will bring the mobs back to them...
No, that is impossible: in the time it would take for the mob to "come back", the melee would already have killed it.


so they chase the mob going "wiff wiff" instead of "snicker snack."
You are correct that melee players sometimes fall into the trap of wasting their time by chasing around a mob that's being kited. Instead, they should just accept that the range player is going to be unhelpful, and go ahead to finish the quest without him. Leave him behind kiting his mob, and move on.

[Ranmaru2]

1. Looks stupid.
2. Slow.
3. Doesn't stack with melee and spells.
4. XXXXXXX

Fighters who are too dumb to know how to form a wall for the archer to run the mobs into should be thrown into an infinite respawn room full of beholders (fighters and beholders respawn) that spam disintegrate...

But it is viable as it allows the ranger to take out that room and the rest can move on ahead (As previously stated). However if its required to move on, then pull out ye olde manyshot or go melee, I will agree. Although a ranger haste boost allows them to very quickly catch up to the party.

[Angelus_dead]

Fighters who are too dumb to know how to form a wall for the archer to run the mobs into should be thrown into an infinite respawn room full of beholders that spam disintegrate...
Backwards. Why would you think its a good idea to "form a wall" like that?

In the event that it is tactically useful to run a crowd of monsters into a wall, it doesn't take an archer to pull them. Instead, a melee character can do so, and then actually contribute to the combat, by joining the "wall".


But it is viable as it allows the ranger to take out that room and the rest can move on ahead (As previously stated).
Wrong: that has nothing to do with ranged combat. It is only based on a willingness to run past mobs: ranged attackers are not nearly the best for executing that kind of tactic.

[Ranmaru2]

Backwards. Why would you think its a good idea to "form a wall" like that?

In the event that it is tactically useful to run a crowd of monsters into a wall, it doesn't take an archer to pull them. Instead, a melee character can do so, and then actually contribute to the combat, by joining the "wall".

a fighter can run up and get a mob to bring back, yes, but he, in no way, can effectively deal damage to them without staying out of the effective swing range of mobs, be it with a greater bane or a wound (and/or puncturer). Therefore, Rangers are better at P'ing off the mobs and having them chase him/her/it.


Wrong: that has nothing to do with ranged combat. It is only based on a willingness to run past mobs: ranged attackers are not nearly the best for executing that kind of tactic.

He can kite them around for the party to move on, lead the mobs to the far side of the room, quaff a haste pot and hit a sprint boost and VOILA! you've just bypassed a section of the quest.

I'm sorry if this makes tanks feel useless, but if they are unable to adapt to tactics used around them, then they should perish.

[bobbryan2]

I'm sorry if this makes tanks feel useless, but if they are unable to adapt to tactics used around them, then they should perish.

I'm pretty sure all those tanks can sleep at night knowing they're doing almost double damage.

[Cupcake]

Well, if those people would put away the bow and pull out a pair of dwarven axes, they wouldn't get laughed out of groups, now would they....

This... is one of the reasons I quit playing DDO.

I was in a raid group gianthold.

My bow was doing more damage than the tank.

I got told to put away my toy.

I quit DDO that day.

[bobbryan2]

This... is one of the reasons I quit playing DDO.

I was in a raid group gianthold.

My bow was doing more damage than the tank.

I got told to put away my toy.

I quit DDO that day.

You quit DDO because ranged DPS is less powerful than melee?

[Milolyen]

This... is one of the reasons I quit playing DDO.

I was in a raid group gianthold.

My bow was doing more damage than the tank.

I got told to put away my toy.

I quit DDO that day.

I'm sorry to hear that. :(

Ranged chars are fun and when played well they are very powerfull. It is just a shame people don't really understand.

Milolyen

[moorewr]

This... is one of the reasons I quit playing DDO.

I was in a raid group gianthold.

My bow was doing more damage than the tank.

I got told to put away my toy.

I quit DDO that day.

You quit because of what someone told you in a party? You quit and you're still posting? :confused:

I'm sorry you had a bad experience in a group.. but grow a spine and go play how you like to play with like minded players.

[nbhs275]

You mean after you have dodged and hopped over the non-casting mobs, right? Me, I just plunk them the moment I see them no matter what mob is between myself and them. The other nice thing is I will agro them and swing wide from the group or hang back so if they throw Comet Falls or other AoE it doesn't hit the whole group instead of 3 Melee characters charging, in a group at the caster and getting all whacked by a spell. ;)

Or we could just agree you are uber and do things the game engine doesn't make possible like moving through mobs, instantly teleporting to casters, and killing them in one swing.

UM, so your saying that because a melee has to take 2 seconds to close with a distant group, that somehow makes the pitiful damage and attack speed of ranged combat better? When you attack 2-3 times faster and hit for 10-20 more damage, then maybe ranged is a better option then "once every 2 minutes".

[nbhs275]

This... is one of the reasons I quit playing DDO.

I was in a raid group gianthold.

My bow was doing more damage than the tank.

I got told to put away my toy.

I quit DDO that day.

try WoW. Ranged combat is heavily supported.

[bobbryan2]

I'm sorry to hear that. :(

Ranged chars are fun and when played well they are very powerfull. It is just a shame people don't really understand.

Milolyen

Just remember, everytime someone says something like this, you do your part in keeping ranged gimped.

[Milolyen]

Just remember, everytime someone says something like this, you do your part in keeping ranged gimped.

How bout I specify then as ranged rangers are very effective? I will conceed the fact that any other type of ranged char is hard to make viable if not a repeater build. But I will argue that a ranged ranger is very effective and leave it at that.

Milolyen

[SqtYork]

FE damage III/IV and appropriate ranger level FE damage bonus.

[esoitl]

What are ranged people getting in Mod 9?

You will see an extra attack for melees at BAB20. Extra attack for TWF tempest rangers. Improved glancing blows for THF fighters and WF. And the list goes on for melee getting better (as it should when you get higher level).

My question is... What will ranged characters get?

You are going to get laughed out of a group if you are a ranger and you start plinking away with a bow. I'm not just talking about rangers, I'm including all classes that want to use a ranged weapon (like that repeater bard, etc).

Does anyone laugh a WoP longbow out of the Reaver?
Don't think so....

Have your been a Cleric in a Shroud where there are very few ranged attackers?
It's not as nice.....

While it isn't a source of DPS ranged combat still has its time and its place. I switch back and forth between ranged and melee on my Ranger depending on the situation. Ranged is sometimes a more viable and easier method even if the DPS is lackluster.

Anyone who says there is no place for ranged combat obviously doesn't know enough about the game.

[Angelus_dead]

How bout I specify then as ranged rangers are very effective?
That's not true either.

Even in a situation like Shroud 4, where Arraetrikos cannot move so that ranged attackers risk neither suffering melee assault nor pulling the monster away from the melee guys, it's still not a good idea to fight the boss with ranged.

[Angelus_dead]

Does anyone laugh a WoP longbow out of the Reaver?
Don't think so....
Some very special and rare monsters who have both a high degree of melee-immunity AND special saving throws providing nigh-immunity to many kinds of spells.


Have your been a Cleric in a Shroud where there are very few ranged attackers?
It's not as nice.....
Totally untrue. On normal mode, if you see someone using a bow or repeater, you know your boss DPS is going to be low.



Anyone who says there is no place for ranged combat obviously doesn't know enough about the game.
There are a handful of special situations that make it difficult to aproach to melee range. They are insufficient to call ranged combat adequately effective. It'd be better if it could have a good role in any random quest.

[Dorian]

That's not true either.

Even in a situation like Shroud 4, where Arraetrikos cannot move so that ranged attackers risk neither suffering melee assault nor pulling the monster away from the melee guys, it's still not a good idea to fight the boss with ranged.

I always think its best to use up multi-shot before going into melee on part4. You can usually cycle though and start each round with a multi-shot depending on the group. I guess that goes back to knowing when to range and when to melee.

Again, this thread is more about ranged combat falling behind even more when Mod 9 is released.

[Cyr]

Can someone explain to me what 'a raid group gianthold' is? Really, they quit DDO because of what someone said in what raid? The only one in gianthold I know of has air elementals all over and those are really annoying to hit with melee.

Oh and OP has a point. Ranged in general needs a boost. Not one specific classes ranged combat, but all ranged combat.

[Angelus_dead]

I always think its best to use up multi-shot before going into melee on part4. You can usually cycle though and start each round with a multi-shot depending on the group.
Or it might be better to save manyshot for later, when the density of blades could make it too damaging to remain in the center.

But either way, if you're not manyshotting, then ranged isn't helping kill that boss.

[Rog]

They don't already?

its not what u use it how you use it!

[itsmezed72]

*Rolls d20*

*Disbelieves that any archer can plink for 200+ at a clip*

Unless by clip you mean "stack of 100".

Granted, I'm talking on on critical hit, and including the good damage. Purely physical damage was high 180s, iirc ;)

Figure a 32 strength, favored enemy bonus + enhancements, elf enhancements, and weapon specialization, and it all adds up. Plus there's a bump form Deepwood Sniper.

[Ranmaru2]

While I will agree that firing speed is not optimal:

1) It's amazing how much easier it is for casters to PK/FoD elementals in the reaver when someone's firing a Wounding/WoP bow/Repeater

2) It's amazing how much easier it is to keep moving in coal chamber when a ranger gets aggro with a bow to pull them away, has haste/drinks a haste pot, and speed boosts through

3) It's amazing how easy it is to manyshot the eladrin to death in Devils, or even kite the mobs in monastery if they're getting to be too cluttered (lots of low con/hp drow). Quite simple to get giant aggro in prey and not get hit much too.

4) narrow corridors of Kobold allow for quite the damage to be dished out (maybe even a call lightning replication) by firing straight ahead

5) Stormcleave even goes a lot easier when mobs are hit for a bunch with a bow shot and then dragged to a caster's FW or Web

6) Gwylan's on elite is so much easier with stuff being kited while tanks (if they even have a head on their shoulder) take out the priests first

7) Feast/PoP/Trial/Cabal all have narrow corridors where one can easily mow lots of mobs down.

8) Relic/Made to Order all go very well when a good archer is there to help, especially made to order where the ranger would buy some time to get the trap so the tanks can fight the duergar without stepping on the mines (as the idiots so often do..)

9) Sleeping dust allows for easy pickins of the magi while kiting the spiders to keep them out of the way

10) weakening beholders on the way to hound is done so much easier from range

11) Too many Protectors/Drones in Hound? Ranger can keep em occupied (or a caster with FW, but that's just how I roll in there :D )

12) (insert other example here where the ranger makes the cleric happy by controlling how much damage the buffoon fighters/tanks, who don't move, take while still taking them down)

Sorry realizing versatility is not your specialty Angelus, do you not kite mobs in part V?

[Angelus_dead]

Sorry realizing versatility is not your specialty Angelus, do you not kite mobs in part V?
Sorry you think that a melee or caster can't do that.

[Ranmaru2]

Sorry you think that a melee or caster can't do that.

melee..nope they need to keep aggro while being in range...

casters..hell yes they can. Been doing it on my main since lvl 9. Though they usually have bigger fish to fry or dont need to waste sp on trash (like stupid sorcs who FoD or PK EVERYTHING in ritual...)

[Angelus_dead]

melee..nope they need to keep aggro while being in range...
You don't know what you're talking about.

[itsmezed72]

yes, I would like to see those numbers as well.

Seeing as you asked...

Under optimal conditions, the numbers break down thusly:

Strength: 30 (w/ +6 item). +2 Ram's Might, +2 Rage, +4 Double Madstone = 38

Damage Bonus: +14 Strength, +2 Ram's Might, +2 Specialization, +7 Favored Enemy/Enhancement, +2 Elf Racial Bonus, +5 Mineral Bow, and +10 Bard Buff = +42

Damage: d10 +42 = 52 x4 (Deepwood Sniper) = 208 + 6 Good + 30 Good Blast = 244


Sooooo... optimal conditions, yes. But heck, that's what all these high ac building people quote their stats at, too ;)

[Dorian]

Seeing as you asked...

Under optimal conditions, the numbers break down thusly:

Strength: 30 (w/ +6 item). +2 Ram's Might, +2 Rage, +4 Double Madstone = 38

Damage Bonus: +14 Strength, +2 Ram's Might, +2 Specialization, +7 Favored Enemy/Enhancement, +2 Elf Racial Bonus, +5 Mineral Bow, and +10 Bard Buff = +42

Damage: d10 +42 = 52 x4 (Deepwood Sniper) = 208 + 6 Good + 30 Good Blast = 244


Sooooo... optimal conditions, yes. But heck, that's what all these high ac building people quote their stats at, too ;)

Please be real... don't give me fantasy. Lets talk about legitimate ranged characters.

How many 30 base str ranged focused character have you come across recently? Then talk about their to-hit with a ranged weapon.

You are doing more harm than good.

[Raithe]

Even in a situation like Shroud 4, where Arraetrikos cannot move so that ranged attackers risk neither suffering melee assault nor pulling the monster away from the melee guys, it's still not a good idea to fight the boss with ranged.

Reasons to fight Arraetrikos from ranged in both part 4 and part 5:

1) DBF cannot reliably be blocked from close range to the caster. Assuming there are characters in the party without evasion and a high reflex save (like, say, a pure cleric) - ranging evasioners can cast safety shadows starting some distance behind them.

2) It is easier to avoid bladestorms and maintain attack distance.

3) Assuming a ranged attacker doesn't necessarily have quicken, it is easier to self-heal and reapply protection and possibly fire shield.

4) You don't trust healbots.

Is it slower? ...yup. It's also more reliable (higher success rates with poorly geared groups, lower death rates with either "ubers" or casuals) and less costly in terms of group-wide repairs and possibly healing supplies.

Making the assumption that faster = better in a game you are paying to play by a time unit (even if its per month) is a poor assumption. Some people might even consider their time fighting a pit fiend as the "quality" part of the experience.

[Angelus_dead]

Reasons to fight Arraetrikos from ranged in both part 4 and part 5:
And even with all those benefits, ranged attacking is still a mistake.

It's just not a tactically-good idea unless your party is inadequate in some other way. It would be preferable if ranged combat could be a contributing part of even powerful groups, instead of a fallback for weaklings.

[Milolyen]

That's not true either.

Even in a situation like Shroud 4, where Arraetrikos cannot move so that ranged attackers risk neither suffering melee assault nor pulling the monster away from the melee guys, it's still not a good idea to fight the boss with ranged.

Actually I consider Shroud 4 a decent example of when ranged is a good idea. Much more efficient for 2 clerics to heal 2 tanks and have the rest of the dps ranged and does not take much longer.

See the problem all you ranged critics are doing is compairing dps of ranged against dps of melee versus ONE mob at a time and a steady supply of those mobs. There is almost no quests where I can not EASILY get lines of 5 + mobs in a row for both in and out of manyshot ... that is 20 attacks PER SHOT. There are also MANY quests where I can easily line up 15 - 20 mobs ... and THAT is 60 - 80 attacks PER SHOT. Sorry but yes a ranged ranger can be VERY effective when played well.

But I have said all this before and been called a liar ... no reason for that to change now.

Milolyen

[Milolyen]

And even with all those benefits, ranged attacking is still a mistake.

It's just not a tactically-good idea unless your party is inadequate in some other way. It would be preferable if ranged combat could be a contributing part of even powerful groups, instead of a fallback for weaklings.

WOW ... that one really made me laugh there A_D.

Milolyen

[transtemporal]

Wounding/WoP bows are wonderful for kiting :)

But I have to ask...what's so bad about Kiting?

Its a playstyle that brings out the prima donnas. Most people want to get a conga-line going to get the most use of improved precise shot which means they're generally moving away from the group, rather than doing tight circles around the group where they wouldn't have so many lined up.

This means that the melees/arcanes can't help with the mobs (or can but less effectively - casters have to recast cc/firewalls, melees lose attack bonus from moving). Its not that the melees/arcanes have to kill everything, they just want to kill everything quickly and an archer by himself takes too long.

And yes, I've seen w/p bow/repeater builds tear through mobs like anything, but an equivalent w/p weap wielder (backed up by a bunch of other team members in close proximity) would still be faster and he'd be closer to the group when its time to move on.

I dunno, I haven't seen it used in a way that is complementary to the strengths of the rest of the party. Mostly its just an opportunity for the archer to try to prove that ranged combat isn't inferior to melee.

Heres a classic line from archer in prey: "Woot! 400 manyshot damage!" :rolleyes:

[Ranmaru2]

You don't know what you're talking about.

in order to effectively kite (keeping a steady, periodic damage flow) a melee would need to put himself up to harm's way unless he has some sort of craptastic clickie like the reaver's necklace or pit fiend cookie or something else. Intimidate requires a still close proximity that allows for the most dangerous of mob attacks, the mid-range attack.

If you do not keep hitting a mob, they will eventually ignore you and go after something else. Unless you have some haphazard throwing weapon (Still no improved precise shot - unless a ranged build) that you're praying for a high to-hit roll in order to keep damaging them. You can UMD a firewall scroll, but unless its about 10-20% of the mob's total HP, they're not going to keep following you.

AC intimidate builds can kite or keep mobs busy, but there's still the problem that they are in harms way and mobs CAN and WILL roll a 20, so there's periodic damage there.

Unless there's some golden scenario (like a Warchanter using fascinate) that I'm missing here, please let me know. Your answeres are as vague as ever. You're supplying nothing on your side other than your numerologist mind set where bigger numbers = better, yet doesn't take into consider your oh so friendly cleric.


Its a playstyle that brings out the prima donnas. Most people want to get a conga-line going to get the most use of improved precise shot which means they're generally moving away from the group, rather than doing tight circles around the group where they wouldn't have so many lined up.

That's called bad kiting. Also, with the tanks chasing in tow, that's called bad tactics on their part. If you say "Hey we got a shield line back here, bring them back to it" and the archer responds, the archer will still have aggro when the mobs are stuck on the line and the casters and tanks (who are being all babyish about not contributing) can finally "do something" but puts the cleric's attitude at risk, especially if the tanks and caster are super squish.

[Angelus_dead]

in order to effectively kite (keeping a steady, periodic damage flow) a melee would need to put himself up to harm's way unless he has some sort of craptastic clickie like the reaver's necklace or pit fiend cookie or something else. Intimidate requires a still close proximity that allows for the most dangerous of mob attacks, the mid-range attack.

If you do not keep hitting a mob, they will eventually ignore you and go after something else.
Yup, you still don't know what you're talking about. To kite in part5 requires nothing more than a single whack of damage.

[Ranmaru2]

Yup, you still don't know what you're talking about.

Well, please give an example, or are there no numbers you can give that would effectively show this situation?

Perhaps if you'd get off your high horse and "discuss" then this wouldn't be a guess what the heck is on A_D's obscure perfectionist mind.

[Angelus_dead]

Well, please give an example, or are there no numbers you can give that would effectively show this situation?
You claimed that a melee character would be inferior at kiting in Shroud 5.

That is obviously untrue to anyone who has tried it with a melee character. You walk up to the monster, hit it with a khopesh, and then run away until the rest of the party tells you to stop.

Prehaps you got confused if you've seen Shroud leaders repeatedly ask ranged attackers to kite the part 5 mobs: that's not because they're better at kiting them, but because they're worse at DPSing the other monsters. Kiting is a job given to someone who would be less effective at making a real contribution.

[Aesop]

Prehaps you got confused if you've seen Shroud leaders repeatedly ask ranged attackers to kite the part 5 mobs: that's not because they're better at kiting them, but because they're worse at DPSing the other monsters. Kiting is a job given to someone who would be less effective at making a real contribution.

Be fair A_D

they are really contributing.

they are holding he mobs away from the rest of the group so they can pick them off one at a time thus helping the group manage damage better

Aesop

[Ranmaru2]

You claimed that a melee character would be inferior at kiting in Shroud 5.

That is obviously untrue to anyone who has tried it with a melee character. You walk up to the monster, hit it with a khopesh, and then run away until the rest of the party tells you to stop.

Prehaps you got confused if you've seen Shroud leaders repeatedly ask ranged attackers to kite the part 5 mobs: that's not because they're better at kiting them, but because they're worse at DPSing the other monsters. Kiting is a job given to someone who would be less effective at making a real contribution.

and a single swing doesn't make it any shorter for anyone else when an archer can repeatedly plink the sub-bosses so that they're lower on life than a single swing.

In part II your single swing philosophy doesn't hold up, as the mobs are notorious for running back to the group if you haven't hit them for an extended period of time. The Earth and Fire elementals have repeatedly run off from my caster unless I periodically dab them with a staff of arcane power. This does not just become an isolated incident in the shroud either. Many other quests have had this behavior, be it the person shield blocking to hold a mob (like xantilar) so the rest of the party can reform, or the person running the mobs around and another person just so happens to be standing nearby.

You're expecting one example to override MANY I've given to be sufficient? Come on, you should know better.

[transtemporal]

6) Gwylan's on elite is so much easier with stuff being kited while tanks (if they even have a head on their shoulder) take out the priests first

When you need to buy a little time while everyone gets rezzed/healed up then sure its useful, but just about anyone else (except the healbot) could do the same trick.

[Angelus_dead]

and a single swing doesn't make it any shorter for anyone else when an archer can repeatedly plink the sub-bosses so that they're lower on life than a single swing.
The DPS of an archer is so low that that isn't a real benefit. All that matters is that you kept it away while the group was fighting someone else. DPS inflicted is a tiny consolation prize, especially since it is wasted by the monster's regen. Plus, several of the Shroud bosses walk so slowly that you can melee one of them while kiting another.


In part II your single swing philosophy doesn't hold up, as the mobs are notorious for running back to the group if you haven't hit them for an extended period of time.
Haha, what? No.


You're expecting one example to override MANY I've given to be sufficient? Come on, you should know better.
You didn't give "MANY", and the examples you gave were untrue. Your observations are incorrect; thus, I said you don't know what you're talking about. The situations you describe just don't happen.

I mean, a melee guy failing to pull in part2 because he didn't do enough damage? That's laughable. A caster using the laliat stick to pull aggro? Also laughable.

[Angelus_dead]

they are really contributing.

they are holding he mobs away from the rest of the group so they can pick them off one at a time thus helping the group manage damage better
Yes, they're really contributing, in the same way that the guy in POP who stands outside the cell to pull the lever is also contributing. It's a job anyone can do, so it's assigned to the character with the least ability to do anything else.

PS. I had a good comic to link here, but the server is overloaded...

[Ranmaru2]

haha, yes.

If something goes wrong and you need to keep the monsters alive, unless you sit there and hit them with a masterwork item for 10 damage a pop, they will run back to rendezvous with the rest of the group. It happens like this, also taking the Fire or the earth near the NE corner causes them to turn around and run to the group too.

A melee can pull all the mobs, but sustaining it if the (what you'd probably call) impossible event of an accidental death of one of the faster mobs occur and you fail to kill the others in time. IF one of them stays alive, then you can shield block, but better hope it has a guard or your have a guard on, as the mob will just run back to rendezvous where the majority are concentrated.

Now please go through the examples and show how they're incorrect instead of saying that by giving a series of impossible events my whole argument has been falsified.

As a general observation: You're good with numbers, but, frankly, your logic skills are bad.

[transtemporal]

To kite in part5 requires nothing more than a single whack of damage.

In fact, it doesn't even require that as long as the melee is the first person the lieutenants see, and no one else attacks.


If you say "Hey we got a shield line back here, bring them back to it" and the archer responds, the archer will still have aggro when the mobs are stuck on the line and the casters and tanks (who are being all babyish about not contributing) can finally "do something" but puts the cleric's attitude at risk, especially if the tanks and caster are super squish.

A shield wall for the archer you say? What a great idea. That reminds me, I need to go post my "Soloed abott elite" thread in achievements.

[Angelus_dead]

Now please go through the examples and show how they're incorrect instead of saying that by giving a series of impossible events my whole argument has been falsified.
They're incorrect in the same way that it's incorrect for me to say that John McCain is the US president: anyone who's gone and looked will see that things just don't happen like you say.



As a general observation: You're good with numbers, but, frankly, your logic skills are bad.
By saying something like that, you have further embarrassed yourself.

[Milolyen]

haha, yes.

If something goes wrong and you need to keep the monsters alive, unless you sit there and hit them with a masterwork item for 10 damage a pop, they will run back to rendezvous with the rest of the group. It happens like this, also taking the Fire or the earth near the NE corner causes them to turn around and run to the group too.

A melee can pull all the mobs, but sustaining it if the (what you'd probably call) impossible event of an accidental death of one of the faster mobs occur and you fail to kill the others in time. IF one of them stays alive, then you can shield block, but better hope it has a guard or your have a guard on, as the mob will just run back to rendezvous where the majority are concentrated.

Now please go through the examples and show how they're incorrect instead of saying that by giving a series of impossible events my whole argument has been falsified.

As a general observation: You're good with numbers, but, frankly, your logic skills are bad.

You have to remember Ran ... A_D does not run with sub-optimal groups, nothing ever goes wrong and if it does it is some other noobs fault or some thing other than tactics used.

Milolyen

[Angelus_dead]

You have to remember Ran ... A_D does not run with sub-optimal groups, nothing ever goes wrong and if it does it is some other noobs fault or some thing other than tactics used.
That is false, but more importantly that's irrelevant.

If hypothetically the only reason I think ranged is weak is because I use powerful groups, then that doesn't mean DDO's ranged combat rules are well-tuned. If ranged combat is only something you resort to when something goes wrong and you need either a breather to recover, or a way to slowly plink down a mob who'd wreck you at close range, then ranged is not making enough of a contribution to gameplay.

Players who walk around with a bow as their default armament will still be (rightly) viewed as someone who isn't going to contribute much upon joining a group.

[Ranmaru2]

1) They're incorrect in the same way that it's incorrect for me to say that John McCain is the US president: anyone who's gone and looked will see that things just don't happen like you say.



2) By saying something like that, you have further embarrassed yourself.

1) Then it must be server differences, cause there are quite a few occasions I don't ask rangers to drop their bow and pull out two weapons or I'll drop group. And there are quite a few capable archers on Ghallanda.

2) By not supplying anything other than assuming the other person's examples "never happen" you're the one who's embarrassing himself.

Are you going to keep speaking in metaphor or actually address them?

You're telling me you've NEVER run a hound where you had to recover and there came to be too much stuff standing at that point and you needed to run it around while having the ability to recover quickly? I call BS.

People don't shoot W/oPs in Reavers? I call BS.

You try to open every door in Coal chamber with all mobs around you who have a chance to roll a 20 and interrupt you? I call BS

You never get any mobs coming around in Monastery or have eladrin get stat damaged to death? I call BS

Never seen an archer with a lightning strike bow shoot down a corridor in Kobold? I feel sorry for you, it's a beautiful sight.

Casters don't use CC in SC? I call BS.

Less stuff aiming at the tanks so they can actually concentrate on the priests? Oh wait...tanks think that there's a mob right there and THEY NEED TO HIT IT so SOMEONE has to take care of the priests, but who? But wait, in your world they all die on sight as if you're a walking weird spell. If it doesn't happen, break group and everyone reroll. I call BS that you dont concentrate on priests first.

You don't run Trial/Feast/cabal and fight in the narrow spaces? I call BS. You don't run pop as a giant kite up a large group and FW or plink with a Wounding/WoP Bow/RXbow? Your tactics waste the cleric's resources.

More often than not, idiots run over the mines in Made to Order. Relic becomes troublesome when tanks try to handle too many duergar at once, but does your server run these quests? Obviously not if the examples don't happen.

Oh so everyone swings a vorpal that only affects giants and lawful outsiders in sleeping dust on your server? amazing hack skills

When weakening beholders from a distance you have a chance to dodge a ray, but wait tanks automatically put the beholder into Useless status on your server. I call BS.

Please, refute the above. They DO happen, just not in your fluffy imaginary world.

[Angelus_dead]

1) Then it must be server differences, cause there are quite a few occasions I don't ask rangers to drop their bow and pull out two weapons or I'll drop group.
That comment is irrelevant to anything I've written, which is part of why I said you don't know what's going on: in that case, you don't know what's happening in this thread.


2) By not supplying anything other than assuming the other person's examples "never happen" you're the one who's embarrassing himself.
That is incorrect.


You're telling me you've NEVER run a hound where you had to recover and there came to be too much stuff standing at that point and you needed to run it around while having the ability to recover quickly? I call BS.
Once again, that is unrelated to what is being discussed in the thread. I have already specifically mentioned that the ability of a ranged character to pull some aggro and give the team a breather to recover doesn't count as a strength of ranged combat. That is especially the case because a melee-focused Tempest Ranger is no worse at it than anyone else with Manyshot and IPS (in fact, the Tempest guy might be a little better, since his Manyshot is unlikely to be on cooldown)



People don't shoot W/oPs in Reavers? I call BS.

You try to open every door in Coal chamber with all mobs around you who have a chance to roll a 20 and interrupt you? I call BS
Yet more examples of comments that are unrelated to what's being said. That's called a "non sequitur". In other words, you don't know what you're talking about.



Please, refute the above. They DO happen, just not in your fluffy imaginary world.
There is no reason for me to refute them. You have utterly failed to convincingly support the idea that ranged combat is an effective technique in DDO.

[Ranmaru2]

so tactics mean nothing to you, noted for the future. Thanks for not convincing me of anything by failing to explain much at all other than the lack of damage on a single mob by ranged DPS. Yeah, I already knew that one, and I know the firing rate is slow, but you already said that turbine is justified in originally nerfing the firing speed from what it was, so you being the voice of the nation have made it where that's not going to be fixed.

you've justified nothing. come back with some actual explanations in the future.

[Angelus_dead]

This... is one of the reasons I quit playing DDO.
I was in a raid group gianthold.
My bow was doing more damage than the tank.
I got told to put away my toy.
I quit DDO that day.
There is only 1 raid in Gianthold: Reaver's Fate.

In Reaver's Fate, it is a bad thing to do more damage than the tank. In fact, it is a bad thing to do damage at all... but if you do feel like damaging the boss, you should be in melee range of him so that he won't run around if you pull aggro.

[Angelus_dead]

so tactics mean nothing to you, noted for the future.
Incorrect: I love good tactics.
In DDO, smart tactics hardly ever involve ranged combat.


you've justified nothing. come back with some actual explanations in the future.
You're the one making outlandish claims that haven't been justified.

[esoitl]

Totally untrue. On normal mode, if you see someone using a bow or repeater, you know your boss DPS is going to be low.


Did I say DPS was goign to be high?
One of the easiest times I've ever had as a Cleric in part 4 was when 3/4 of the tanks went down to the blades and we had 6 characters with evasion ranging him. It lasted a bloody long time but I was the last Cleric alive and all it took was reapplying fire protection and a heal for anyone who failed a save(not very often) and a bit through the devils.

DPS sucked but it made life much easier. Even now as a Cleric I hate having fewer than two ranged characters with evasion. The safety of ranging has it's place. A good ranged build is often beneficial to a party whether some people realize it or not.
Will you say that having a ranged build with a paralyzer is a bad thing or not applicable to a majority of quests?

[Angelus_dead]

Did I say DPS was goign to be high?
One of the easiest times I've ever had as a Cleric in part 4 was when 3/4 of the tanks went down to the blades and we had 6 characters with evasion ranging him. It lasted a bloody long time but I was the last Cleric alive and all it took was reapplying fire protection and a heal for anyone who failed a save(not very often) and a bit through the devils.
That doesn't sound easy at all; having to fight multiple waves of devils and then multiple waves of gnolls... ouch. Why would you want to do that, if it could be avoided?


Will you say that having a ranged build with a paralyzer is a bad thing or not applicable to a majority of quests?
Yes, it's a bad thing in the majority of high-level situations. Even if the monsters had poor enough saves for the paralyzer to work, it'd still generally be better for a fighter to wave a paralyzing weapon around, especially if it's a puncturing rapier at the same time.

[esoitl]

Please be real... don't give me fantasy. Lets talk about legitimate ranged characters.

How many 30 base str ranged focused character have you come across recently? Then talk about their to-hit with a ranged weapon.

You are doing more harm than good.

You've never grouped with me before :)
I had a dream, many months ago, that I could build a ranged character to topple this notion that ranged combat was useless. I planned Deepwood Sniper and it seemed like I could pull it off, until I got to level 10 or so. As Rangers get bow strength I upped my STR for the highest possible DPS.

I eventually gave up the idea but with a few dragonshards I converted a rnaged build into a very very viable Tempest build running around with a 30 STR. I could always spec back to ranged if I want, but I don't.

I'll admit there aren't many but I for one had one.

[esoitl]

That doesn't sound easy at all; having to fight multiple waves of devils and then multiple waves of gnolls... ouch. Why would you want to do that, if it could be avoided?


Yes, it's a bad thing in the majority of high-level situations. Even if the monsters had poor enough saves for the paralyzer to work, it'd still generally be better for a fighter to wave a paralyzing weapon around, especially if it's a puncturing rapier at the same time.

A) It was very easy. The only time we were damaged was during the devils which go down very quickly with appropriate crowd control. The gnolls.... please... they last 30 seconds if that.

B) A DPS character using a paralyzer normally means less DPS. Have a non-DPS character using the paralyzer means you keep your DPS and the party as a whole gets hit less....

[bobbryan2]

You've never grouped with me before :)
I had a dream, many months ago, that I could build a ranged character to topple this notion that ranged combat was useless. I planned Deepwood Sniper and it seemed like I could pull it off, until I got to level 10 or so. As Rangers get bow strength I upped my STR for the highest possible DPS.

I eventually gave up the idea but with a few dragonshards I converted a rnaged build into a very very viable Tempest build running around with a 30 STR. I could always spec back to ranged if I want, but I don't.

I'll admit there aren't many but I for one had one.

I had a dream that ranged DPS wasn't gimped.

I made a 30 base strength elven barbarian 14/2. Raged up to 46 strength commonly, and was critting on a 15 with the silver bow.

He was a god for 20 seconds.

Now he is a mule.

[bobbryan2]

Lemme say this.

I like tactics. Tactics are awesome. Using a gimped form of combat isn't good tactics. It's bad tactics.

Stop trying to play the "just use tactics" card.

[Angelus_dead]

A) It was very easy. The only time we were damaged was during the devils which go down very quickly with appropriate crowd control. The gnolls.... please... they last 30 seconds if that.
You must have been exaggerating about how long it took, then.


B) A DPS character using a paralyzer normally means less DPS. Have a non-DPS character using the paralyzer means you keep your DPS and the party as a whole gets hit less....
That's an invalid comparison. It presupposes that the party had already decided to bring along a non-DPS character, and had no option to replace him with someone who provides DPS in addition to special-effect weaponry.

[Jopin]

"Hello" from the 'less-than-uber world'.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I play in a static group of RL friends that can't even see "ENDGAME". We've conquered Velah but most raids are out of our reach. Some, but not all, of us have one or two capped chars.

In our world a ranger with a paralyzer is golden. Multishot and paralyzing lets our WF barb go nuts, frequently saving all of us from great discomfort. Anything that would help that ability would be welcome in our group.

[bobbryan2]

"Hello" from the 'less-than-uber world'.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I play in a static group of RL friends that can't even see "ENDGAME". We've conquered Velah but most raids are out of our reach. Some, but not all, of us have one or two capped chars.

In our world a ranger with a paralyzer is golden. Multishot and paralyzing lets our WF barb go nuts, frequently saving all of us from great discomfort. Anything that would help that ability would be welcome in our group.

The best thing you can do to help that ability is to understand that ranged is gimped and ask the Devs to fix it.

[nbhs275]

Granted, I'm talking on on critical hit, and including the good damage. Purely physical damage was high 180s, iirc ;)

Figure a 32 strength, favored enemy bonus + enhancements, elf enhancements, and weapon specialization, and it all adds up. Plus there's a bump form Deepwood Sniper.

and think, you could be critting twice as often, add in PA, hit twice as fast, and all with less investment.

[bobbryan2]

But some people need to keep playing ranged gimped or not otherwise would they fix it if noone is playing a ranged character :rolleyes:

Do they need to KEEP playing? Or do they simply need to have played it in the past?

[Uska]

The best thing you can do to help that ability is to understand that ranged is gimped and ask the Devs to fix it.

But some people need to keep playing ranged gimped or not otherwise would they fix it if noone is playing a ranged character :rolleyes:

[esoitl]

You must have been exaggerating about how long it took, then.


That's an invalid comparison. It presupposes that the party had already decided to bring along a non-DPS character, and had no option to replace him with someone who provides DPS in addition to special-effect weaponry.

I don't want this by any means to seem as a personal attack, hopefully this is being taken as such.
As for the Shroud run talked about, this was a while back. We had a lot of Rangers in group along with a Rogue who were the ones to take down the fiend. I forget our exact make-up and whether or not we actually had a tank alive for the last 3-4 rounds. What I do remember is we had a Sorceror alive who put up CC and basically killed all the gnolls himself. Two of our ranged characters took one of the far sets while the Sorceror took out the other 3 sets so no, they didn't last long at all. The beauty of Vorpals is they don't care about STR, damage, nor do they care who was using them so with an Acid Fog, Web, and a Symbol the devils were Vorpaled pretty easily and weren't a huge concern to the group.
We had him down to 50% or so when most or all of our melee died. I figured it was a write off but we pecked through his health while not taking much damage at all. It was bloody long and I will never deny that fact. Nor will I try to pretend our DPS was good. It was sufficient though and I think that exemplified the safety of ranged combat. It's such a long time ago now but I remember a lot of ranging throughout part 5 as well, wish I could have remembered the party make-up better. It was a snoozer of a run but both Clerics came through part 5 with 35-50% of their SP bar left so yeah, it was pretty easy in the fact that there was little risk throughout, just a hell of a lot slower.

As for the second bit, it's nice to be elite. Some of us aren't and we don't have the luxury of having a paralyzing puncturing weapon. I frequent PuGs almost exclusively and I'm sure you'll agree you get some really good players with really good equipment, others you get some bad players with not so great equipment. Even with my Tempest Ranger I do enjoy using ranged combat and switching between the two.


The whole point of my original post was that from my personal experience, I have found there is a place for ranged combat. I know it will never be a huge part of the game, nor will it ever be a real DPS threat. Not sure why you are so against this opinion.

[bobbryan2]

But some people need to keep playing ranged gimped or not otherwise would they fix it if noone is playing a ranged character :rolleyes:

You can roll your eyes all you want.

I don't see that this necessarily follows. They'd probably fix it anyway, eventually... that is... if they truly thought it was broken.

[Milolyen]

Incorrect: I love good tactics.
In DDO, smart tactics hardly ever involve ranged combat.


You're the one making outlandish claims that haven't been justified.

I do have a question here A_D. What exactly is your play style? I ask because from some posts I see you as a zerger wanting quick completion times so you can quickly move on to the next thing but then when you analyze weapon speeds you go by attacks per min and the only way that is really relavent is if you stop and kill everything which is not very zerg like.

I am curious about this as if you stop and kill everything I could understand why you belive some of the things you do and not see some of the other points I have made but if you are a zerger you must not have ran with very good ranged rangers.

If the quest is known a GOOD ranged player will NOT use many shot every time it becomes available but instead wait for the bigger battles. Then if the quest is not known a good ranger will rarely use it unless the group is in trouble or it appears to be a big fight.

When zerging a quest everyone runs past the majority of the mobs and then fights them in certain locations and in these cases manyshot is almost always ready to be used and the timer is reseting while running to the next stopping point and at those stopping points you have the mage casting area effect spells dmging multiple enemies at once, a ranged char will also be dmging multiple targets at once (this dmg is stacking) unlike melee because they focus on one mob at a time till it is dead then move to the next. Meanwhile that dead mob is no longer takeing dmg from the AOE or the ranger therefor in this case it is melee dmg that does not stack (except for THF glancing blows which is not really being used currently).

If you want to run numbers try running numbers using real world examples ... take a quest you run and how you run it and apply the numbers to that. I think you will find a little different story. If you have trouble I can give you examples of what a good ranged focus ranger will do in any situation as I have been playing mine for almost 3 years and doubt there is a situation I have not come across. Again I said ranged focus not strictly ranged.

Milolyen

[GrayOldDruid]

Ranged is a totally viable way to go. Just because your gimped brain can only conceive of one way to do things, doesn't mean that you're right. ("You" used in a general sense, not specific)

My Arcane Archer (which is my original character, Ranger(13)/Thief(3), reworked a bit) is still my favorite to play.

Is the DPS as good? No. But there are more things to consider - if you have the mental capacity to consider more than one thing at a time. For one, I don't get hit as often - even though "Tanks" often have trouble keeping the aggro off of me (which makes me think I just may be doing some decent damage to the ones they're hitting on to pull the aggro off of them... ). I have ... Tweek, Skeratch and Woodsy ... three Melee and I still find it annoying to constantly run around chasing down mobs. I much prefer to Range - whether by bow or spell. Still, its often useful to use range to make the mobs stop moving around so much. I have two melee specced for Trip and Stunning Blow, just to make them stand still. The third is probably going that route at some point, maybe... depending....

Whipping out Melee weapons (paralyzer of pure good and a wounder of pure good make a great pair) when the mobs get too close is always good to be able to do.

Ranged is totally viable. It is not Optimal DPS (though I would love to see some way to track damage done, cause I think I'd come out pretty close to the top of most groups), which is why so many one-track-minded people call it gimped. For anyone outside the Numb-Nut-Number-Crunchers who only strive to max out their DPS/Kill Count/HP/AC/Stat numbers and minimize their time-spent, Archery is perfectly good. Sure, it may take me six to ten more seconds to kill a single mob than a melee, but I take 1/3 of the damage they will and I will require 1/3 of the healing.

That being said, an increase in ROF would be very nice.

[Uska]

You can roll your eyes all you want.

I don't see that this necessarily follows. They'd probably fix it anyway, eventually... that is... if they truly thought it was broken.

even if they dont I will still keep playing my ranged ranger as it is fun for me, if it stops being fun then I will quit playing him if someone tries to tell me to how to play him in group I am likely to quit group

[Angelus_dead]

the only way that is really relavent is if you stop and kill everything which is not very zerg like.
Wrong. You don't know what you're talking about.


if you are a zerger you must not have ran with very good ranged rangers.
There is no such thing as a "good" ranged ranger. Anyone using ranged attacks except in certain uncommon situations is making a tactical error, and being less effective than he could be.


When zerging a quest everyone runs past the majority of the mobs and then fights them in certain locations and in these cases manyshot is almost always ready to be used and the timer is reseting while running to the next stopping point and at those stopping points you have the mage casting area effect spells dmging multiple enemies at once, a ranged char will also be dmging multiple targets at once (this dmg is stacking)
You seem to suffer the illusion that Manyshot + IPS is a powerful attack to use against a clump of monsters who have been chasing you. That is untrue. I can see why you'd think so: it seems reasonable that IPS would be better when you have many enemies. But in reality, due to weapon targetting, monster pathing, and dungeon layouts it doesn't work that way. IPS on a big group is only slightly more effective than on single monsters. It is a mistake to save Manyshot for large clumps of mobs. You'd do better DPS if you use it almost as soon as it's ready. Attempting to wait for a big group means you're wasting cooldown.


Meanwhile that dead mob is no longer takeing dmg from the AOE or the ranger therefor in this case it is melee dmg that does not stack (except for THF glancing blows which is not really being used currently).
You've got trouble with the definition of "stack", and you also might not know about "Cleave".


If you have trouble I can give you examples of what a good ranged focus ranger will do in any situation
Please, try.


as I have been playing mine for almost 3 years and doubt there is a situation I have not come across. Again I said ranged focus not strictly ranged.
I am aware there are some people who are in denial and make heavy used of ranged combat, regardless of it being ineffective. DDO's quests are frequently so easy that the rest of the party prefers not to complain that he's not helping.

[Angelus_dead]

Ranged is a totally viable way to go. Just because your gimped brain can only conceive of one way to do things, doesn't mean that you're right.


But there are more things to consider - if you have the mental capacity to consider more than one thing at a time.
Those juvenile insults serve only to embarass yourself.


Is the DPS as good? No. But there are more things to consider - if you have the mental capacity to consider more than one thing at a time. For one, I don't get hit as often - even though "Tanks" often have trouble keeping the aggro off of me (which makes me think I just may be doing some decent damage to the ones they're hitting on to pull the aggro off of them... ).
That's a serious misconception about how DDO works. As has already been explained, the reason they can't pull aggro is that you shot the mob first, and they can't catch it to hit it, so you're wasting everyone's time by lengthening the lifespan of the enemy. Some players mistakenly think this is a good thing: that their "kite tanking" is somehow helping the group by reducing incoming damage. Those players help spread the reputation of archers as people who don't care to help their parties.

DDO does not feature a so-called "tank" roll that is meant to hold aggro for other players to DPS.


Whipping out Melee weapons (paralyzer of pure good and a wounder of pure good make a great pair) when the mobs get too close is always good to be able to do.
That does not actually work in DDO. Even if you do have the Quick Draw feat, the time delay to switch weapons makes that inefficient. You'd be better off having melee weapons out already.


Ranged is totally viable. It is not Optimal DPS (though I would love to see some way to track damage done, cause I think I'd come out pretty close to the top of most groups)
If that's true, it's because you're stealing aggro from people who would have DPSed the monster faster if you weren't even there.


which is why so many one-track-minded people call it gimped. For anyone outside the Numb-Nut-Number-Crunchers who only strive to max out their DPS/Kill Count/HP/AC/Stat numbers and minimize their time-spent, Archery is perfectly good.
Wrong, it's not good for people who'd like to either maximize mission success, or minimize expended costs.

[itsmezed72]

and think, you could be critting twice as often, add in PA, hit twice as fast, and all with less investment.

And getting hit a heck of a lot more.

[itsmezed72]

Please be real... don't give me fantasy. Lets talk about legitimate ranged characters.

How many 30 base str ranged focused character have you come across recently? Then talk about their to-hit with a ranged weapon.

You are doing more harm than good.

It's not my fault there aren't that many. I was asked how my archer could do over 200 damage, and I presented the numbers (for the record, I've not hit for that best-case max - my tops was 188 physical + 28 good).

My ranger is 30 strength and 30 dexterity, unbuffed. With buffs, her to-hit goes north of +50. Is that adequate, D? :D

[Milolyen]

Blah Blah Blah

In the words of well ... you

WRONG

If ranged is so gimp and other chars are being too polite to say something then why do I often end up with leading the kill count? Why is it that when I play my ranger quests seem to go MUCH more smoothly than when I play cleric in all melee groups (only difference in groups is me playing cleric and cleric playing there melee).

Example? Easy ... first part of SoS, groups I run with usually start off running straigh ahead ... me I go right. I grab all the mobs along the way ... get to first name grab agroe ... go to second name and grab agroe ... hit many shot and the 2 named along with the majority of the trash following me is dead in a 30 second fight (not including the run) and during that fight I am hitting around 10 mobs per shot so that is 40 attacks per shot for 20 seconds ... tell me again how that is not effective? Usually I am done with those two named and that fight before the rest of group (thats 5 other players) are done with going straight ahead and I just meet them for the boss ... ya they do beat me to the boss :rolleyes:. That is literally taking out 2 of the 3 named in the same time it takes the rest to get to and take out the other. That really feels like me being carried through. Fire side ... to easy the only things that make it up to me are the efreeti that don't spawn till you get to close.

Example? Prey on the Hunter. Run past everything till Named hey we have named and timed spawns. Melee never miss a swing against giants :rolleyes: Every time you get knocked back you miss 2 to 4 of those swings in that # of swings per minute calculations ... then don't forget when they run in order to try and range ... never miss a swing in that time either. Then oh wait once you finish fighting that boss you are doing more running (timer on manyshot ticking away) reach the cleric that needs to die for the wall to break and timer is up and cleric is dead before even a single melee gets in range to swing (hows that swings per min calculation going?) Get to the end ... my ranger can grab agroe of the dragon and/or giant that she is agroed on to kite and the rest of party can head south to intercept the named and all other giants.

Example? Coal chamber ... you REALLY stop and fight all the mobs in this quest? Please just run pass them to the rooms with the keys (hint the mobs will open all but the locked doors for you) Each time you hit a room where you have to fight and manyshot timer is worn off.

Example? Monastery of the scorpian ... Again you fight everything here as you come to it? Sorry that is not a very fast way to do it. Run past everything maybe target a few of the wizards as you run by ... mage puts up fogs, cloud kill, and fire walls ... All AoE and dmg over time. 20 mobs getting hit by the aoe 20 * dmg done now ranged attacks multiple mobs at once and spreads dmg over all of them so #of mobs in a line * ranger dmg ... now for every one that drops before they all drop reduces the dps done by mage and ranger. Melee focus on one mob till it is dead so that 20 that will die in x amount of time now becomes 19 and usually that x amount of time is actually more than how long it takes to focus on them as you come to them specially considering a ranger will save manyshot for those times they are grouped.

Example? Kobald ... you fight everything in the tunnels as you come to them. Can easily run past them all till you come to certain spots then kill what you need to then continue running. Once again manyshot timer is counting down while you are running through and not fighting.

For someone who is all about efficiency you don't seem play that way if you don't see grouping mobs up together as an effective tactic. How do you go about the troll cave loot runs back when they where popular? You see casters fighting the mobs in groups one or two? HAHA hell no they run past everything and then burn them to a crisp at certain points ... that is how they got to be speed runs.

I don't remember what the attack rate is exactly of a longbow but seem to remember seeing something like 59 attacks per minute while hasted. So lets say 1 attack per second ... so with manyshot you get 20 shots. In places like monostary kobald and Sos it is really easy to get lines of 10 to 15 mobs for pretty much the entire 20 seconds. You like math so lets do the math. 10 - 15 mobs in a line * 4 attacks per shot * 20 shots that right there is 800 - 1200 attacks in JUST 20 seconds. That is what about 5 - 7 MINUTES worth of melee attacks in 20 seconds no that is not powerfull at ALL what the heck was I thinking. Then even without manyshot a line of 10 - 15 mobs is 10 - 15 attacks PER SECOND versus a melees what 3(maybe 4 if you want to include cleave)? and the ranged does not have to break between mobs to get the hits so for each second that ranger has a line of 10 - 15 he moves ahead in hit department by 2 - 3 seconds. For a melee once they kill the mob they have to move on to the next therefor missing out on 2 - 6 attacks each time a mob dies ... ranger just has to tab the next one and does not miss a beat (granted next one may not be a good line.).


Would love to keep going but have to get back to work (been typing this between running various processes).

Milolyen

[Ranmaru2]

blah blah blah blah

Hey,

Maybe if you stopped failing to specify and deliberately creating mystery and omitting statements and/or facts that support your view point we could actually understand (other than your flawed numerologist beliefs about 'DPS') what your problem is with it and where our arguments are lacking strength.

From what I've seen here, you're just bouncing around the edges.

I've already admitted that the firing speed is not optimal, but you already said Turbine was justified in nerfing the original firing speed, but now that they have the ammo bug, mostly, worked out, why not return it to its previous state?

I've yet to encounter a voice of authority who when he follows-up on someone's answer with, "You don't know what you're talking about," fails to give an explanation on why they don't know, or give them some relevant factual data/explanations on a subject. Your attempt to seem like the DDO guru is flawed by your inability to specify proper explanations other than saying that every possible scenario your opponent brings up "does not happen."

[nbhs275]

In the words of well ... you

WRONG

If ranged is so gimp and other chars are being too polite to say something then why do I often end up with leading the kill count? Why is it that when I play my ranger quests seem to go MUCH more smoothly than when I play cleric in all melee groups (only difference in groups is me playing cleric and cleric playing there melee).


Two possible reasons. A) your ranged, drawing aggro before anyone else closes and then drawing mobs away from melees. So while you take twice as long to kill the mobs, you prevent others from attacking those same mobs. Or B) you play with ****** melees or your a bad cleric.

Example? Easy ... first part of SoS, groups I run with usually start off running straigh ahead ... me I go right. I grab all the mobs along the way ... get to first name grab agroe ... go to second name and grab agroe ... hit many shot and the 2 named along with the majority of the trash following me is dead in a 30 second fight (not including the run) and during that fight I am hitting around 10 mobs per shot so that is 40 attacks per shot for 20 seconds ... tell me again how that is not effective? Usually I am done with those two named and that fight before the rest of group (thats 5 other players) are done with going straight ahead and I just meet them for the boss ... ya they do beat me to the boss :rolleyes:. That is literally taking out 2 of the 3 named in the same time it takes the rest to get to and take out the other. That really feels like me being carried through. Fire side ... to easy the only things that make it up to me are the efreeti that don't spawn till you get to close.

And yet any good ranger with a WoP bow can do the same thing, and then switch to melee weapons to continue fighting instead of continueing to pluck away one arrow at a time when manyshot is done

Example? Prey on the Hunter. Run past everything till Named hey we have named and timed spawns. Melee never miss a swing against giants :rolleyes: Every time you get knocked back you miss 2 to 4 of those swings in that # of swings per minute calculations ... then don't forget when they run in order to try and range ... never miss a swing in that time either. Then oh wait once you finish fighting that boss you are doing more running (timer on manyshot ticking away) reach the cleric that needs to die for the wall to break and timer is up and cleric is dead before even a single melee gets in range to swing (hows that swings per min calculation going?) Get to the end ... my ranger can grab agroe of the dragon and/or giant that she is agroed on to kite and the rest of party can head south to intercept the named and all other giants.

Again, any good ranger can make use of that 20 second window when manyshot is effective. Trying to use ranger for the other 120 seconds while its on cooldown however, is stupidity.

Example? Coal chamber ... you REALLY stop and fight all the mobs in this quest? Please just run pass them to the rooms with the keys (hint the mobs will open all but the locked doors for you) Each time you hit a room where you have to fight and manyshot timer is worn off.

Nope, just swing 2 banishing rapiers as your run along and they go bye bye faster then you can say "im out of arrows"COLOR]

Example? Monastery of the scorpian ... Again you fight everything here as you come to it? Sorry that is not a very fast way to do it. Run past everything maybe target a few of the wizards as you run by ... mage puts up fogs, cloud kill, and fire walls ... All AoE and dmg over time. 20 mobs getting hit by the aoe 20 * dmg done now ranged attacks multiple mobs at once and spreads dmg over all of them so #of mobs in a line * ranger dmg ... now for every one that drops before they all drop reduces the dps done by mage and ranger. Melee focus on one mob till it is dead so that 20 that will die in x amount of time now becomes 19 and usually that x amount of time is actually more than how long it takes to focus on them as you come to them specially considering a ranger will save manyshot for those times they are grouped.

[COLOR="red"]ow, same thing where a ranger can use manyshot for 20 seconds, get the same effect, and then drow out greensteels and continue to do high damage, where the ranged ranger sits and plunks away for 2 minutes, waiting to be effective again.

Example? Kobald ... you fight everything in the tunnels as you come to them. Can easily run past them all till you come to certain spots then kill what you need to then continue running. Once again manyshot timer is counting down while you are running through and not fighting.

This is a really weak arguement here. The kobolds are all so pitiful, the only part of this quest that slows down a real group is the end fight, where ranging is no more effective then melee, because of all the casting and small room.

For someone who is all about efficiency you don't seem play that way if you don't see grouping mobs up together as an effective tactic. How do you go about the troll cave loot runs back when they where popular? You see casters fighting the mobs in groups one or two? HAHA hell no they run past everything and then burn them to a crisp at certain points ... that is how they got to be speed runs.

I don't remember what the attack rate is exactly of a longbow but seem to remember seeing something like 59 attacks per minute while hasted. So lets say 1 attack per second ... so with manyshot you get 20 shots. In places like monostary kobald and Sos it is really easy to get lines of 10 to 15 mobs for pretty much the entire 20 seconds. You like math so lets do the math. 10 - 15 mobs in a line * 4 attacks per shot * 20 shots that right there is 800 - 1200 attacks in JUST 20 seconds. That is what about 5 - 7 MINUTES worth of melee attacks in 20 seconds no that is not powerfull at ALL what the heck was I thinking. Then even without manyshot a line of 10 - 15 mobs is 10 - 15 attacks PER SECOND versus a melees what 3(maybe 4 if you want to include cleave)? and the ranged does not have to break between mobs to get the hits so for each second that ranger has a line of 10 - 15 he moves ahead in hit department by 2 - 3 seconds. For a melee once they kill the mob they have to move on to the next therefor missing out on 2 - 6 attacks each time a mob dies ... ranger just has to tab the next one and does not miss a beat (granted next one may not be a good line.).
Holy blocks of text batman! Yes, manyshot is effective for 20 second bursts. But for the other 120 seconds between, your not effective. So lets see, 1/7th of the time your effective, VS 100% of the time, melee is effective. Which is more effiecient?

Would love to keep going but have to get back to work (been typing this between running various processes).

Milolyen

Even though I don't always agree with A_D, hes far from most of these cheap shots you guys are trying to throw at him because your ignorantly trying to defend ranged builds.

Remember, everything you can do(ranged rangers) we can do better(melee rangers/fighters/paladins/rogues/clerics/barbarians/...even monks)

[barecm]

Until ranged combat has the same number of attacks per round as melee (as it should) ranged combat will still be broken. It has been broken since release. It was fixed some, broke some with Mod 3 (the dry fire bug introduced) and I can only assume that they lack the ability to fix it. What I mean is that the faster they allows ranged combat, the more glitches with dry fire and unrecorded hits that there is. I am not a programmer nor do I pretend to be one, but it is just an observation. Ranged combat has been on the fix list for a long, long, long, long time. I don't even check it anymore since I am sure they just dropped it from the list a while ago. Anyway, this game will never have ranged combat equal to melee in attacks per round out of fear of game imbalance. At one point during the beta, ranged combat ruled... period the end. It was nerfed and has never been the same since.

So, don't hold your breath. Stop complaining. The horse is dead and you can stop beating it. Ranged combat is broken and will probably remain so until this game dies.

If I sound pessimistic, then you are reading this post correctly.

[Delt]

I've argued with Milo before, his sometimes vague/sometimes silly retort of "TACTICS" is about all he can muster, and at the end of the day he'll simply dismiss logical counter arguements because he firmly believes he's discovered some 'gameplay' secret about ranged that few others know.

Ranged is gimped, 99% of the time in DDO. If people really want to play, build and specialize towards that combat style, more power to 'em. But don't try to argue it's not non-optimal. I think that's the only reason A_D and others are being dismissive. It's a dumb arguement, ranged combat is gimped, it's a proven and visible fact - discussion is simply a waste of time.

[DoctorWhofan]

My rogue is a ranged killer. Unless they nerf her WoP bow, she's set. Nobody complained that I have a smiter bow, greater bane bows and that one.

[Raithe]

...because he firmly believes he's discovered some 'gameplay' secret about ranged that few others know.


Na, many other people know about them, they aren't really secrets. Some people just like to embarass themselves through proving their ignorance, I guess.


...ranged combat is gimped, it's a proven and visible fact...

As is melee combat under certain circumstances. Do you have a way to hit things with a sword before you actually get to them? Can you hit an archer that is perched above you with melee? Do you have a way to hit that caster in the back of a pack of mobs that are blocking a doorway? Do you try to melee Cholthulzz instead of dodging 95% of his eye beams?

The point that I think Milolyen, myself, and others are trying to make above all the cries "ranged is gimped," is that it depends on what you want to be able to do with it:

1) You may be able to do more than you have figured out (obviously, for some of you)
2) You may want it to do things that wouldn't be good for the game

I have had a TWF ranger (really 2) since a few days after DDO's launch. If I had to pick between my TWF feats and my ranged feats, there is no question which I would choose. I may try to switch out some defensive feats to get at least the first TWF feat back, but bow strength, rapid shot, manyshot, precise shot, and improved precise shot are all more useful to me.

If anything, I'd be worried that the developers are going to change the effectiveness of ranged in the nerfing direction.

[Delt]

If anything, I'd be worried that the developers are going to change the effectiveness of ranged in the nerfing direction.

*wipes a tear from his eye*

The forums are pure gold some days.

[nbhs275]

*wipes a tear from his eye*

The forums are pure gold some days.

Next he will be saying how clerics arent good healers and that khopeshs arent as good as bastard swords..

Raithe, you do understand that 2 things say your completely wrong right?

1. MATH

2. COMMON SENSE

[Ranmaru2]

Next he will be saying how clerics arent good healers and that khopeshs arent as good as bastard swords..

Raithe, you do understand that 2 things say your completely wrong right?

1. Numerology

2. People of no tactical understanding

Fixed for you. Math speaks nothing on its own other than numbers, by trapping an idea into your head based upon numbers you are no longer practicing mathematics, you're practicing numerology.

But hey, I'll leave it at that.

[bobbryan2]

Fixed for you. Math speaks nothing on its own other than numbers, by trapping an idea into your head based upon numbers you are no longer practicing mathematics, you're practicing numerology.

But hey, I'll leave it at that.

haha

That's a new one.

[Missing_Minds]

The best change they could make to range combat is stealth increasing the rate of fire. This has nothing to do with prestige enhancements, gear, or anything else...

Incomplete.

They could make our shots actually lead the NPC targeted like mobs do.
They could make our shots actually freaking arch like mobs do.
They could actually drop arrows in stacks much larger than 20 to actually make it worth while. I mean, seriously, oh look... I got two different type of x20 arrows for my loot... The price for the selling of them doesn't even come close to the selling of armor out of the chest.

However... I already know for a fact that the devs consider range to be FPS, so mouse look and twitch skill it which screws many players out of really being able to enjoy ranged attacks here. Hence, even though the ability to hit is much less, the size of the hit detection is less, and the skill required to hit is much greater than that of swinging a sword/axe/melee, and the damage output is so freaking behind.. There are NO, NONE, NADA, GIVE UP FREAKING ASKING FOR ANYTHING THAT WOULD HELP THIS FORM OF COMBAT as the devs are pretty tired of it.

But the loot table and arrows.. now that... That is possibly the only thing that may be changed at some date because it effects all players equally.

[Missing_Minds]

The point that I think Milolyen, myself, and others are trying to make above all the cries "ranged is gimped," is that it depends on what you want to be able to do with it:

Equal footing with mobs, the generic ones. Not bosses. But oh looky... Our abilities are behind them.


If anything, I'd be worried that the developers are going to change the effectiveness of ranged in the nerfing direction.

Raithe... you two of all people should know better than that. They won't change it. Unless they swap tables that Codog fixed a while back.

[Raithe]

Raithe... you two of all people should know better than that. They won't change it. Unless they swap tables that Codog fixed a while back.

There are lots of things that could happen that would reduce the effectiveness of ranged combat. They could:

1) Change the speed of mobs. Currently most mobs move slower than a hasted character.
2) Improve the AI in a way that makes stat damage less useful. For certain ways of using ranged, much of the benefit resides in wounding and weakening.
3) Improve the AI in a way where mobs tend to spread themselves out instead of clustering.
4) Attempt to improve ranged combat and wind up making it worse.

I don't think anyone is really arguing that improvements to ranged can't be made. The timing bug where you don't get attack rolls at all is rather annoying to work around. Some of us just disagree with the improvements being suggested. For every "experienced MMOer" that just wants to sit back and plunck away with a bow, there are 5 twitch players in DDO that will maximize the advantages given to them and make everyone else playing the game feel useless.

I actually believe Milolyen when he talks about running past mobs and hitting them in confined spaces for 14 damage numbers per shot, because I know it is entirely possible. For those that don't think it's possible - well, that's why we are posting.

[Missing_Minds]

If ranged is so gimp and other chars are being too polite to say something then why do I often end up with leading the kill count?

Not to discount your counter argument to AD, but seriously...

Why? you got the last shot in, same as any one else who has a kill. You could have only done 1 hp of damage to the creature, but a kill is a kill.

Kill count means exactly jack squatting.

[Missing_Minds]

There are lots of things that could happen that would reduce the effectiveness of ranged combat. They could:

1) Change the speed of mobs. Currently most mobs move slower than a hasted character.
We are still in Mod 8 right? Most mobs that I know of in the game at the upper levels run faster than us on haste. Or is it a case of client/server makes such happen to where we can't hit them running away, but they can sure as heck nail us every single time.
2) Improve the AI in a way that makes stat damage less useful. For certain ways of using ranged, much of the benefit resides in wounding and weakening.
If they made the AI more intelligent, I don't see that as taking away from ranged combat myself. The two, to me, are separate issues, but I can see the generic linking of such.
3) Improve the AI in a way where mobs tend to spread themselves out instead of clustering.
Unless they were in a corridor, it was hard to get them to cluster for... archery/thrown combat regardless. Ranged with AOE yeah.. nice and easy.
4) Attempt to improve ranged combat and wind up making it worse.
That really isn't an improvement and should be changed back, not left in. If it does not do what they were intending, I can't really count it. It wasn't an intentional nerf as you were seeming to describe what you were worried about.

I don't think anyone is really arguing that improvements to ranged can't be made. The timing bug where you don't get attack rolls at all is rather annoying to work around. Some of us just disagree with the improvements being suggested. For every "experienced MMOer" that just wants to sit back and plunck away with a bow, there are 5 twitch players in DDO that will maximize the advantages given to them and make everyone else playing the game feel useless.

Fair enough, but they CAN even the playing field without catering to one style of play. Such would not take away anything from the twitch players, and add more enjoyment to the non twitch. Overall... fun factor increased. I don't think anyone would call that a bad thing.

I actually believe Milolyen when he talks about running past mobs and hitting them in confined spaces for 14 damage numbers per shot, because I know it is entirely possible. For those that don't think it's possible - well, that's why we are posting.

Ok.. you lost me on that one. So you are claiming that.. you can run past 1 mob, turn around and shoot it, providing it is within an enclosed space and do 14 different numbers of damage on it without many shot? Could you fill in the blanks on how please? I can't figure it out. best I can come up with is 8. If you already answered on how, just tell me to scroll back. :)

(1) base damage
(2) sneak attack
(3) force
(4) elemental
(5) elemental burst
(6) elemental blast
(7) special effect strike
(8) bane

[nbhs275]

Fixed for you. Math speaks nothing on its own other than numbers, by trapping an idea into your head based upon numbers you are no longer practicing mathematics, you're practicing numerology.

But hey, I'll leave it at that.

Numerology :

the study of the occult use and supposed power of numbers

Um, pretty sure when your talking about factual numbers compared on a 1:1 basis, its called mathmatics. Im not talking any voodoo ******** here. Please, try to find a real arguement instead of weak attacks and sidesteps. I can numerically prove that ranged combat does less damage. Can you make any such claim and support it?

[bobbryan2]

Numerology :

the study of the occult use and supposed power of numbers

Um, pretty sure when your talking about factual numbers compared on a 1:1 basis, its called mathmatics. Im not talking any voodoo ******** here. Please, try to find a real arguement instead of weak attacks and sidesteps. I can numerically prove that ranged combat does less damage. Can you make any such claim and support it?

Yeah, I'm trying to be snippy and sarcastic here... but I can't even come up with a funny explanation of how relative DPS numbers is numerology.

I just can't do it!!!!

[Raithe]

I love the filibustering, but I'm afraid it's just a little too obvious. No one can really be this dense.

1) I thought the comparison to numerology was apt. If you take a particular situation that you have arbitrarily decided is "golden" and then use the number calculations from that situation to refute all other possibilities, it is very much similar to the worship of numbers themselves.

The truth is that ranged, in a majority of situations encountered in DDO, will have higher potential in DPS and stat damaging statistics. I don't really care myself about number crunching, but I have to admit it when it's so easily computed.

2) It should have been obvious that getting 14 damage numbers per shot was in reference to improved precise shot. It has nothing to do with the different damage types showing up in a single damage sum (i.e. 14+3+12+8 would be a single "number"). And Manyshot gives you 2 to 4 shots per firing.

If anyone wants to call me on that, I can take my ranger into Jungles of Khyber right now, get a conga line of trolls, and take a screenie of even more damage than that on my way to the entrance of the caves. Each number will also be the sum of base+holy+greaterbane+screaming and will have a combined enhancement bonus of +9. But please, filibuster some more. I'm sure you'll get your way eventually. :rolleyes:

[bobbryan2]

I love the filibustering, but I'm afraid it's just a little too obvious. No one can really be this dense.

1) I thought the comparison to numerology was apt. If you take a particular situation that you have arbitrarily decided is "golden" and then use the number calculations from that situation to refute all other possibilities, it is very much similar to the worship of numbers themselves.

The truth is that ranged, in a majority of situations encountered in DDO, will have higher potential in DPS and stat damaging statistics. I don't really care myself about number crunching, but I have to admit it when it's so easily computed.

2) It should have been obvious that getting 14 damage numbers per shot was in reference to improved precise shot. Manyshot gives you 2 to 4 shots per firing. It has nothing to do with the different damage types showing up in a single damage sum (i.e. 14+3+12+8 would be a single "number").

If anyone wants to call me on that, I can take my ranger into Jungles of Khyber right now, get a conga line of trolls, and take a screenie of even more damage than that on my way to the entrance of the caves. Each number will also be the sum of base+holy+greaterbane+screaming and will have a combined enhancement bonus of +9. But please, filibuster some more. I'm sure you'll get your way eventually. :rolleyes:

Right.. because crunching numbers to find out which weapon does more damage against the pit fiend is equivalent to the worship of numbers.

How can you even say that with a straight face.

Let's try it this way. Which is better against the pit fiend, ranged or melee? Sor'jeK? Abbot? What about Velah? Or even Suulomades.

The problem with ranged is that it just can't deliver in crunch time. You can kill 15 trolls on the way to Von 3!? Hurrah! You can kill those nicely lined up ogres in the Twilight Forge? Good on you!

You keep making characters to perform well in meaningless encounters... and the rest of the people will make characters that are golden when the fights matter.

[Angelus_dead]

If anyone wants to call me on that, I can take my ranger into Jungles of Khyber right now, get a conga line of trolls, and take a screenie of even more damage than that on my way to the entrance of the caves.
You were a bit too subtle before. Until this example, it was too easy for someone to believe you were serious.

Only at this point does it become clear you're presenting a strawman to make the pro-ranged side look silly.

[Ranmaru2]

Numerology :

the study of the occult use and supposed power of numbers

Um, pretty sure when your talking about factual numbers compared on a 1:1 basis, its called mathmatics. Im not talking any voodoo ******** here. Please, try to find a real arguement instead of weak attacks and sidesteps. I can numerically prove that ranged combat does less damage. Can you make any such claim and support it?

As far as the numerology claim, if you can't see how the DPS numbers on the forum here have become the "god" of DDO's current flow and are thus what everyone wants to look at to try and get their builds to still be useful/applicable, then you cannot speak on word association. This is not bending the definition posted above to fit a random situation either, this is going off of what is posted in feedback threads and NUMEROUS threads spread about the forums. Anyway...

I've already made my arguments, but the best responses I get are: you're dumb, you don't know what you're talking about, etc.

If you, the opponent, have no mathematical way of constructing VERSATILITY and know way to counter the VERSATILITY argument other than a loose claim that the 14 events I posted before "Just don't happen," then your argument is flawed.

IFF you come up with more specific situations, counter examples, or even factors as to how the 2nd (arguably, best) from of CC is a hindrance to the game, then by all means do so, but don't leave it on mysterious generics and specify NOTHING.

I don't count Manyshot as saying ranged DPS, as it is 20 seconds of enigmatic behavior. It's just as flawed as saying Exalted smite is a Paladin's DPS. While it supplies them with an opportunity to bring the pain, it's not always going off (unlike Cleave/Great Cleave), so can't be factored in properly. Normal shots from a str-based (still 26-28 Dex) archer can do good damage, especially when the only 3 useful favored enemies at the moment are:
1) Elemental
2) Evil Outsider
3) Abberation/construct/Giant (Take your pick)

Now, since the arrows also have a chance to effect MORE THAN ONE opponent over the whole distance that a person's comp is able to render opponents, it is their AVG dmg to that many mobs per line, while a tank is stuck with what is by him 120' - 180' (cleave and great cleave). Your misunderstanding of 14 numbers of damage I can understand, but Mil was talking about shooting down a line or cluster of 14 mobs (if I'm to take my best interpretation).

[bobbryan2]

Now, since the arrows also have a chance to effect MORE THAN ONE opponent over the whole distance that a person's comp is able to render opponents, it is their AVG dmg to that many mobs per line, while a tank is stuck with what is by him 120' - 180' (cleave and great cleave). Your misunderstanding of 14 numbers of damage I can understand, but Mil was talking about shooting down a line or cluster of 14 mobs (if I'm to take my best interpretation).

Ok.. since you guys consistently try to dream up situations where ranged is better (and they do exist).

Please tell me what your ranged characters do in A Vision of Destruction. Other than taking up a valuable melee slot, that is.

[Angelus_dead]

Please tell me what your ranged characters do in A Vision of Destruction. Other than taking up a valuable melee slot, that is.
He's OK at killing the Detonator bats...

[Ranmaru2]

Ok.. since you guys consistently try to dream up situations where ranged is better (and they do exist).

Please tell me what your ranged characters do in A Vision of Destruction. Other than taking up a valuable melee slot, that is.

So if I'm to get this right, you're isolating 99% of the game to talk about 4 quests? Right.........

As far as that particular example, I've seen a ranged ranger actually help out by kiting Orthons quite perfectly while people A) peeled one off or B) intimidated one off (intimi-tank does not have enough AC to stand all 4 orthons, but able to control where mobs go). It's a perfectly viable way to deal with the orthons. Now devils, I won't argue, it doesn't help as much, unless you got a good angle to the devil and have a good wounder. However, it is entirely possible to be smashing an orthon for about 30-40 dmg a hit (With bursts) in VoD, and if they just so happen to be lining up, then while the party works on one, the ranger can deal damage to 2-3 orthons and help shorten the time for the rest of the fighters to kill them.

[Gornin]

Ok.. since you guys consistently try to dream up situations where ranged is better (and they do exist).

Please tell me what your ranged characters do in A Vision of Destruction. Other than taking up a valuable melee slot, that is.

It's what my wizzie does in between casting spells :D.

[Angelus_dead]

So if I'm to get this right, you're isolating 99% of the game to talk about 4 quests? Right.........
Backwards. It'd be more accurate to say that ranged is a mistake in 99% of the game. There are times when ranged is superior, and some of those situations are actually things people have cared about.

[Ranmaru2]

Backwards. It'd be more accurate to say that ranged is a mistake in 99% of the game. There are times when ranged is superior, and some of those situations are actually things people have cared about.

How's it a mistake? When's it a mistake? Why's it a mistake? Where's it a mistake?

When's it superior?

[bobbryan2]

He's OK at killing the Detonator bats...

Yeah... but seeing as they have a poor AC... that strength ranger does better on them.

Again.

[bobbryan2]

So if I'm to get this right, you're isolating 99% of the game to talk about 4 quests? Right.........

As far as that particular example, I've seen a ranged ranger actually help out by kiting Orthons quite perfectly while people A) peeled one off or B) intimidated one off (intimi-tank does not have enough AC to stand all 4 orthons, but able to control where mobs go). It's a perfectly viable way to deal with the orthons. Now devils, I won't argue, it doesn't help as much, unless you got a good angle to the devil and have a good wounder. However, it is entirely possible to be smashing an orthon for about 30-40 dmg a hit (With bursts) in VoD, and if they just so happen to be lining up, then while the party works on one, the ranger can deal damage to 2-3 orthons and help shorten the time for the rest of the fighters to kill them.

Well, I'm differentiating difficult content from easy content. When the fights are difficult, ranged doesn't really help. If they fights aren't difficult, then really... who cares?

Secondly, if your intimi-tank can't intimidate all 4 orthons without having trouble staying up, you need a new intimi-tank. What you don't need, however, is a ranger kiter... because you'll still take a ton more damage killing that one than you would with a better intimidator.

[Ranmaru2]

Well, I'm differentiating difficult content from easy content. When the fights are difficult, ranged doesn't really help. If they fights aren't difficult, then really... who cares?

Secondly, if your intimi-tank can't intimidate all 4 orthons without having trouble staying up, you need a new intimi-tank. What you don't need, however, is a ranger kiter... because you'll still take a ton more damage killing that one than you would with a better intimidator.

Not if one person knows who has aggro and turns the orthon. Even enemy mobs get lucky and can continuously pound on an intimi-tank. Sully has days where he smacks the heck out of my brother's ac ranger when tanking him.

That aside, how does it not help? And if your best reply to other situations is "Who cares?" I find it hard to believe you have an argument on this situation at all, other than being a part of the "Best DPS numbers are all that matters" cult.

[Delt]

If anyone wants to call me on that, I can take my ranger into Jungles of Khyber right now, get a conga line of trolls, and take a screenie of even more damage than that on my way to the entrance of the caves. Each number will also be the sum of base+holy+greaterbane+screaming and will have a combined enhancement bonus of +9. But please, filibuster some more. I'm sure you'll get your way eventually. :rolleyes:

....lol.

I almost wanna believe it's just clever schtick/trolling, but I know it's not. Either way, hilarious post. First prize!!

"Archer kiting in VoD" post wins 2nd prize. It was close though.

[nbhs275]

Not if one person knows who has aggro and turns the orthon. Even enemy mobs get lucky and can continuously pound on an intimi-tank. Sully has days where he smacks the heck out of my brother's ac ranger when tanking him.

That aside, how does it not help? And if your best reply to other situations is "Who cares?" I find it hard to believe you have an argument on this situation at all, other than being a part of the "Best DPS numbers are all that matters" cult.


look at this way. Your buying a new car. You have two options, both the same model, same color, same price, but one has better fuel efficiency. Which would you want. Thats the difference between a ranged character and a melee one. Both can get the same AC, same saves, health, ect. But the melee does twice as much damage and can range just as well as the "ranged" ranger. So why go with the ranged ranger?

[bobbryan2]

look at this way. Your buying a new car. You have two options, both the same model, same color, same price, but one has better fuel efficiency. Which would you want. Thats the difference between a ranged character and a melee one. Both can get the same AC, same saves, health, ect. But the melee does twice as much damage and can range just as well as the "ranged" ranger. So why go with the ranged ranger?

Oops, sorry.. you're part of the cult that thinks doing 50% damage than the next guy is relevant.

I think he wants you to tell him why ranged sucks under the assumption that everyone does the same damage.

:rolleyes:

[Raithe]

So... instead of a ranged tactics debate, this is really about who's the most uber? Ranged or melee builds? There is no such thing.

A strength based ranger with a decent dex (say 24) should be ranging in certain situations as well. Like I said, with bows you can fairly easily get a +9 enhancement bonus, and that makes up for a medium dexterity in a lot of situations. Also, dex-based melee (and they are still called that whether they sometimes pull out a bow or not) can get decent strength scores. The difference in damage between one or the other is usually less than 10%.

A dex-based elf with a pair of greensteel rapiers will definitely outdamage a strength-based dwarf with a pair of +3 dwarven axes of pure good. And right now I'm wondering how the conversation shifted to make me point that out...

[Angelus_dead]

How's it a mistake? When's it a mistake? Why's it a mistake? Where's it a mistake?

When's it superior?
Those questions have already been answered recently. (Not only in this thread, but also (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=167162&highlight=ranged) here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=169656&highlight=ranged)).

In normal DDO situations, it is always a mistake to use ranged weapons instead of melee. That does not apply if Manyshot is off cooldown, if there is a special barrier preventing you from closing to melee distance, or if the monster has an extra-special overpowered melee damage (old-school Queen Laliat). But for normal gameplay, ranged is a mistake.

Why that? Because in normal situations the goal is to kill the monsters, and ranged is less effective at killing than TWF is, because the attacks are slower, don't use PA, and have less critical range. (In some cases you can instead reach objectives by running past monsters, which means neither ranged nor melee is really needed). In theory ranged combat could use IPS to gain a higher effective attack rate, but that fails for three reasons: monsters hardly ever come in lines, there's no instant way to aim down the center of a line, and because focused DPS is better than distributed.

It's true that ranged characters are usually less vulnerable to enemy damage, especially from melee attacks. However, increased personal safety is hardly ever enough to justify reduced attack power. That is the fundamental offense-defense inequality, which is well-understood by anyone with a little ability in game design. A high-offense character can help his group defeat the enemy by attacking them, but a high-defense character cannot necessarily help against an enemy that has no reason to target him until the more-vulnerable members have already been defeated.

Ranged doesn't stack with melee:
1. With an all-melee group, the combatants run up to the enemy together, and kill them with swords. Adding more melee guys increases the DPS.
2. With an all-ranged group, the archers shoot mobs while running in circles to stay out of reach. Adding more ranged guys increases DPS.

But if have a group with melee and ranged together, then two things can happen.
1. Just like an all-melee group, the melee guys run up to mobs and kill them. The ranged person contributes arrow DPS from behind, and he doesn't need to run because he's not pulling aggro. He would help more if he drew rapiers and joined the clash.
2. The archers shoot monsters before melee people can hit them, pulling aggro into kite circles which the melee people have difficulty catching up on. The melee guy has four choices:
(a) Keep chasing the mob, only occasionally hitting it for a minor DPS contribution.
(b) Cut across the kite-circle to get ahead, and Intimidate the mob when it passes. Attack it and keep aggro (either with DPS or Intim). Doing this means that the ranged guy is getting no benefit from kiting, so he may as well draw steel and join the clash.
(c) Pull out a ranged weapon and shoot the mob, likely contributing an undetectably low DPS.
(d) Leave the ranged guy behind to slowly kite a mob to death, and advance forward to to find new mobs that haven't been aggroed yet. That essentially means he's going to proceed to win the quest without waiting for help from the archer.

In every one of those possibilities, the party would perform better if the archers put away the bows and drew steel. If anyone's using melee, everyone should be.

[Angelus_dead]

So... instead of a ranged tactics debate, this is really about who's the most uber? Ranged or melee builds?
No, it is not.


And right now I'm wondering how the conversation shifted to make me point that out...
It didn't. It appears you wanted to kill a strawman.

[Raithe]

If anyone's using melee, everyone should be.

Ignoring some of the problems with your post, I agree with this part to a certain extent. I also claim that it's reversible - if anyone is using ranged, everyone should be. The objective would be to use ranged when it makes more sense, and melee when it doesn't. I don't know how this is hard to comprehend, as it's the way D&D has been played (at least by a large number of people that I know) for quite a while.

I do have to comment on this whole debate about what parts of the game are actually important. I used the Jungles of Khyber in my example because it is one of the few quests in the game where you can get 40 or 50 mobs all together without them getting leashed. Who's to say, however, that Mod 9 won't bring a nostalgic return to the VoN quests but upgraded to levels 18, 19, or 20? It's happened before. I suppose you can always reroll with each mod, but I don't really see the fun in that.

My point being this really should be a discussion of what can be done with certain abilities like ranged and improved precise shot - getting too specific obviously doesn't help. In general, I would think it's normal to get 2 or 3 mobs lined up when using ranged and that puts it's DPS well within norms.

[Angelus_dead]

Ranged doesn't stack with melee:
To tersely summarize the core of the problem:

If a ranged player has aggro, he is kiting the monster and protecting it from non-ranged damage.
If a ranged player does not have aggro, then his increased defense is not being used, so he may as well upgrade to melee (unless the monster is being kited by someone else).

Put those together, and it means ranged doesn't fully stack with melee. Adding a ranged attacker to a melee group will either
(a) not pull aggro, and contribute less offense than if he used melee
(b) pull aggro, reducing the offense of the melee guys
Neither is a good result.

To prevent that kind of conflict, I occasionally suggest (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2010714&postcount=27) changes to reduce the degree to which kiting a monster protects it from non-ranged damage.

[Angelus_dead]

I also claim that it's reversible - if anyone is using ranged, everyone should be.
That doesn't work in practice. It's easy to test that experimentally with a party of 4 rangers and 1 cleric. Kiting turns out not to be as good a defense as one might think, and protecting yourself by killing mobs faster becomes too attractive to resist.


I do have to comment on this whole debate about what parts of the game are actually important. I used the Jungles of Khyber in my example because it is one of the few quests in the game where you can get 40 or 50 mobs all together without them getting leashed.
Even in Jungle of Khyber, ranged is inferior. If you aren't capable of beating those trolls in melee, you also won't have enough ranged DPS to beat their regen. Trolls are a monster that makes it very clear that net DPS is less important than focused DPS.

If your party has any difficulty fighting their way into VON3b, they'll be over their head once they get there. (I saw that happen repeatedly when module 1 was new)


Who's to say, however, that Mod 9 won't bring a nostalgic return to the VoN quests but upgraded to levels 18, 19, or 20?
If there hypothetically was an upgraded level 20 VON3 relaunch, it would probably contain trolls too sturdy to effectively kill through crowd-IPS. Instead, you'd probably wind up tri-basing them, just like you do with Frost Giants.


In general, I would think it's normal to get 2 or 3 mobs lined up when using ranged and that puts it's DPS well within norms.
LOL?

[Raithe]

Put those together, and it means ranged doesn't fully stack with melee.

Beautiful sidestep. I'm starting to see what is making the anti-ranged crowd uncomfortable. They don't like the idea that under circumstances where ranged is the superior choice (as it often is) that they may be looked down upon as the "support" class providing lower but contributory damage. Let me put it in big bold letters to help the squirming a bit more:

MELEE DOESN'T FULLY STACK WITH RANGED.

There was a situation in Hound of Xoriat during one of the last runs of it on my ranger where 2 Protectors were about to wipe our small killing band. I promptly pulled out my wounding bow, hit speed boost and manyshot, and sucessfully kited the 2 menaces away and luckily killed them both before my speed boost failed.

The thing I thought was odd was that no one else in my band even chased after me with a ranged weapon in hand. The difference of whether or not those protectors died probably would have been success or failure of the entire raid.

[bobbryan2]

Beautiful sidestep. I'm starting to see what is making the anti-ranged crowd uncomfortable. They don't like the idea that under circumstances where ranged is the superior choice (as it often is) that they may be looked down upon as the "support" class providing lower but contributory damage. Let me put it in big bold letters to help the squirming a bit more:

MELEE DOESN'T FULLY STACK WITH RANGED.

There was a situation in Hound of Xoriat during one of the last runs of it on my ranger where 2 Protectors where about to wipe our small killing band. I promptly pulled out my wounding bow, hit speed boost and manyshot, and sucessfully kited the 2 menaces away and luckily killed them both before my speed boost failed.

The thing I thought was odd was that no one else in my band even chased after me with a ranged weapon in hand. The difference of whether or not those protectors died probably would have been success or failure of the entire raid.

Um, you activated many shot.

Everyone here has said manyshot rocks. It's when people don't put away the bow when many shot is up that's the problem.

[Angelus_dead]

Beautiful sidestep. I'm starting to see what is making the anti-ranged crowd uncomfortable.
No. In reality, any discomfort is due to that dismay at seeing people who are attempting to prevent the developers from ever fixing ranged combat to be a useful part of normal gameplay, instead of a trap.


MELEE DOESN'T FULLY STACK WITH RANGED.
That's true- and since melee is better on its own, that means you should never range when you could melee.

That's why the various people who request a large increase to ranged DPS are making a mistake: that would make ranged become better, it still wouldn't stack with melee, and there'd hardly be any justification to melee anymore.

[Raithe]

Um, you activated many shot.

Everyone here has said manyshot rocks. It's when people don't put away the bow when many shot is up that's the problem.

The point was actually that the 2 people still standing in my band could have been using Wounding Heavy Crossbows of Pure Good and cold iron bolts. Apparently that wouldn't have made them the big hero, though.

[Angelus_dead]

There was a situation in Hound of Xoriat during one of the last runs of it on my ranger where 2 Protectors where about to wipe our small killing band. I promptly pulled out my wounding bow, hit speed boost and manyshot, and sucessfully kited the 2 menaces away and luckily killed them both before my speed boost failed.
If you kited them, you must have already had aggro, because a wounding bow doesn't do much DPS. In that case, the tactically correct choice would've been been to pop a blue shield and block in place.



The thing I thought was odd was that no one else in my band even chased after me with a ranged weapon in hand.
Seriously? You're curious as to why they didn't waste their time and reduce their effectiveness by pulling out a bow or throwing axe?

[moorewr]

The point was actually that the 2 people still standing in my band could have been using Wounding Heavy Crossbows of Pure Good and cold iron bolts. Apparently that wouldn't have made them the big hero, though.

You're in a band? :cool:

[Angelus_dead]

The point was actually that the 2 people still standing in my band could have been using Wounding Heavy Crossbows of Pure Good and cold iron bolts. Apparently that wouldn't have made them the big hero, though.
Did they actually have those items??

And if they did have them, what would that have accomplished? Factor in the weapon-switching time, and both of them together would get off 2-4 shots, equivalent to less than one volley of your Manyshot. (That goes back to what I already explained: if a ranged attacker is kiting a mob around, melee people are unlikely to have any way to contribute noticable ranged offense)

[Raithe]

If you kited them, you must have already had aggro, because a wounding bow doesn't do much DPS. In that case, the tactically correct choice would've been been to pop a blue shield and block in place.

We really need to stop getting so specific I guess. The details are this:

The 2 protectors kind of suprised us, I think they came from the south portal but I'm not sure. For some reason the cleric of our band got the initial aggro and died in about 3 seconds. One of the other melees then gets aggro and fights them for a bit and dies. I think that left me, a caster, and a fighter/barbarian if I remember right. I was the last to get to the Protectors because I was ahead of the group a little to the North (or behind, whichever way you want to look at it). Yes, I did get aggro of one of the Protectors before I decided there was no way we were going to win like this. The fact that I did pull aggro away from the fighter-barbarian with a wounding bow suggests that we may have been an underequipped group. Still, a x4 DPS burst is exactly that: quadrupled. I would guess that the average damage per firing was around 60? points even with a wounding bow and not good-aligned.

The caster probably has an excuse for not pulling a crossbow out, but that excuse should have been scorching ray or something.
The fighter/barbarian could have definitely landed a wounding or 2.

[Angelus_dead]

The fact that I did pull aggro away from the fighter-barbarian with a wounding bow suggests that we may have been an underequipped group.
Why would you think that?


The caster probably has an excuse for not pulling a crossbow out, but that excuse should have been scorching ray or something.
The fighter/barbarian could have definitely landed a wounding or 2.
Why in the world would anyone cast Scorching Ray? If caster needs to kill a Protector, you Enervate.
Why in the world would he even have a crossbow?

[Raithe]

Why in the world would anyone cast Scorching Ray? If caster needs to kill a Protector, you Enervate.
Why in the world would he even have a crossbow?

Enervate wouldn't have been a bad choice at all as long as it wasn't cast from a scroll. Even though the caster had less than 20 seconds to save my life, an enervation would have contributed to the demons' demise. My sorceror does not carry enervation for roleplaying reasons, so that's why I added "or something."

The crossbow is just a figurative icon for anything that could do damage in that situation. There was nothing else to accomplish during those 20 seconds that was more important than making sure the protectors were put down and we weren't. There were no other mobs to kill for a good 30 seconds or more afterwards, because I distinctly remember healing myself to full before rejoining the group.

Things that could have been used in place of a "Wounding Heavy Crossbow of Pure Good":

1) A wand of force missile
2) A transmuting crossbow
3) A crossbow of puncturing (1 in 10 chance is better than nothing)
4) A throwing axe, shuriken, or other str-based-damage weapon that could possibly beat the DR of the protector

I guess I failed to mention just how close of a call it was. I had something like 28 or 29 hit points left when the encounter was over. One more hit from the lead protector would have done me in. I also am fairly confident that my manyshot and speed boost had given out at exactly the last firing of my bow. Anything at all in the way of support would have been preferable to just sitting there with a thumb in a shady orifice.

As to why should a caster or barbarian carry a ranged weapon... I'm not sure that inquiry really deserves an answer, but one reason would be for scenarios precisely like the one I just described...

...or you can be the big, bad hero who trips the ceiling lever all by yourself.

[Ranmaru2]

So if we're to go real world example with this, you would argue that the Huns, Mongols, and even the Brits were at a distinct tactical disadvantage for relying on their arrows so much. However, history points out that Parthian Tactics was a quite viable strategy, and is, in essence, how a ranger should kite in DDO.

This style of kiting may not take full advantage of IPS, but still allows for the mobs to be corralled together to allow the melees to do their job. I'm still wondering how an increased defense on one person's part =/= an improved defense for the whole group? I see more melees that have <60 ac (or even the breakpoint ACs at lower levels) that get squashed in higher level content, so how does a ranger preventing himself and, in turn, the group from getting hit not equate to a higher bonus than excrement?

How is discussing tactics based on the current mechanic available detrimental to the fixing of Ranged combat? According to you there's no possible fix for Ranged, as any increase in firing speed (even if they knock it up 50% of the current rate) mysteriously makes melee useless, love to see the justification for this weird factoid. I'm pretty sure that a 50% increase whereby 48 attacks suddenly becomes 72 < 140 area of TWF.

This, while small, increase would allow for more leniency about archers to stand behind a melee wall or melees in general and shoot over their shoulder (which even in real life was a good strategy).

Some side notes:

1) Scorching Ray is the best single target Damage-to-SP output spell there is, with polar ray in second place

2) Note how many times the word DPS was stated in Angelus' biggest post on this page and try and refute the numerology claim/OCD of DPS that is infected the game.

3) Depending on the difficulty, enervate would have actually been a bad choice, considering that the protectors in the hound have some of the highest SR values in the whole game, and the fact that they were chasing after the ranger puts them at angles where enervate would have had a higher chance to miss than land.

4) I really don't get how a concentrated effort to fix ranged suddenly overrides melee as a whole. Where's the justification. This is the one time I'll ask for numbers to prove this, and instead of abbreviating everything at least set up your vocabulary before applying the abbreviations.

[moorewr]

So if we're to go real world example with this, you would argue that the Huns, Mongols, and even the Brits were at a distinct tactical disadvantage for relying on their arrows so much. However, history points out that Parthian Tactics was a quite viable strategy, and is, in essence, how a ranger should kite in DDO.

A_D covered the Hun, Mongol, and Parthian example when he said that all-ranged was a viable strategy.

What do you mean by the British? Are you thinking the English yeoman archers of the Hundred Years War? If so, that's an example of effective combined arms - the "party," if you will, at Crecy and Agincourt shield blocked in the door while the archers drew the French knights' aggro. So to speak. :)

[nbhs275]

A_D covered the Hun, Mongol, and Parthian example when he said that all-ranged was a viable strategy.

What do you mean by the British? Are you thinking the English yeoman archers of the Hundred Years War? If so, that's an example of effective combined arms - the "party," if you will, at Crecy and Agincourt shield blocked in the door while the archers drew the French knights' aggro. So to speak. :)

gotta love that metaphor. But yes, the main power of the english archers was their numbers and the range. When you can make the sky so laden with arrows that the shade cools the enemies brow, your bound to hit something.

[moorewr]

gotta love that metaphor. But yes, the main power of the english archers was their numbers and the range. When you can make the sky so laden with arrows that the shade cools the enemies brow, your bound to hit something.

Most of the effective shots were to the horses.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt says:
The French men-at-arms reached the English line and actually pushed it back, with the longbowmen continuing to fire until they ran out of arrows and then dropping their bows and joining the melée (which lasted about three hours), implying that the French were able to walk through the fire of tens of thousands of arrows while taking comparatively few casualties. The physical pounding even from non-penetrating arrows, combined with the slog in heavy armour through the mud, the heat and lack of oxygen in plate armour with the visor down, and the crush of their numbers, meant they could "scarcely lift their weapons" when they finally engaged the English line however.

[Raithe]

According to you there's no possible fix for Ranged, as any increase in firing speed (even if they knock it up 50% of the current rate) mysteriously makes melee useless, love to see the justification for this weird factoid. I'm pretty sure that a 50% increase whereby 48 attacks suddenly becomes 72 < 140 area of TWF.


I guess ranged needs fixed then? My bad... I didn't think so.

"Makes melee useless" is perhaps the wrong terminology. No, the effectiveness of melee will be unchanged by any changes confined to ranged combat only. The more correct terminology might be "nerfs the mobs," or possibly "regears combat dynamics."

I pulled a wounding light repeater of puncturing in Gianthold Tor once, and I have since been able to see it in action in Ritual Sacrifice and Rainbow in the Dark on the guy I traded it to. He wound up with 3 times more kills than the rest of the party combined. It wasn't a matter of DPS differential, as most things were dying before the melee even got to them (and I wasn't helping things on my sorceror by using Hold Monster as my spell of choice).

Contrary to A_D's statements, a four ranged ranger party is incredibly effective, and they don't need a cleric (a bard would probably be better anyway for a multitude of reasons). If each ranger makes sure to announce a manyshot use ahead of time so the other rangers don't expend theirs, it's basically like having 7 rangers all focus-targetting the same closest mob and all having a chance of hitting anything behind it, probably from a multitude of angles. I have seen it in action, and it kind of makes the game seem ridiculous.

The point that I'm trying to make is that it is a monumental mistake to ignore the high end of ranged mechanics because the low end seems sort-of kind-of inferior (and that inferiority is continuously enforced by min/maxxers who have a low tolerance for being sidelined). Ranged is NOT broken, it can be improved in certain ways (I actually agree with many of A_D's suggestions), but increasing attack rate and making manyshot a stance are 2 of the worst ideas for DDO that I could imagine.

[Angelus_dead]

1) Scorching Ray is the best single target Damage-to-SP output spell there is, with polar ray in second place
A. Acid Arrow is the best single target Damage-to-SP output spell
B. Actually, Wall of Fire does more damage per sp even if there's only one target.
C. There was more than one target.
D. The mobs were Protectors of Xyzzy. Do you have any idea how many thousands of hitpoints those guys have? Attempting to damage their hp is foolhardy.
E. The mobs were already in the middle of being killed by manyshot con damage, so attacking their hitpoints would have been even more pointless than it was normally.


2) Note how many times the word DPS was stated in Angelus' biggest post on this page and try and refute the numerology claim/OCD of DPS that is infected the game.
Duh... he made a specific example about him using a wounding bow, and said that the caster should have done hitpoint damage to help. Everyone knows hitpoint and con damage don't stack, right?



3) Depending on the difficulty, enervate would have actually been a bad choice, considering that the protectors in the hound have some of the highest SR values in the whole game, and the fact that they were chasing after the ranger puts them at angles where enervate would have had a higher chance to miss than land.
A. Enervate miss? Not likely.
B. He said he wanted him to cast Scorching Ray, which obviously would miss at least as much as Enervate.
C. Given that he wanted the caster to help kill the mob, Enervate might actually do that, while the only thing Scorching Ray could possible accomplish is pull aggro.

However, if the caster really wanted to help, the best would be SF/AF, except for the high likelyhood there already was a fog present.


4) I really don't get how a concentrated effort to fix ranged suddenly overrides melee as a whole. Where's the justification.
Nobody here has made that claim. Don't ask someone to justify things he doesn't even believe in.

[Angelus_dead]

Things that could have been used in place of a "Wounding Heavy Crossbow of Pure Good":

1) A wand of force missile
2) A transmuting crossbow
3) A crossbow of puncturing (1 in 10 chance is better than nothing)
4) A throwing axe, shuriken, or other str-based-damage weapon that could possibly beat the DR of the protector
Except for punct, none of those would have helped even slightly. The mob has well over 5000 hp, and you killed it with con damage. No amount of hitpoint damage they could have inflicted would have made it die any faster than it did.


Anything at all in the way of support would have been preferable to just sitting there with a thumb in a shady orifice.
Yes, sure. They could have attempted to help you by running after it with a con or vorpal weapon, which he'd already have equipped anyhow. Depending on if he was able to catch up, that might have helped you. But switching to a ranged weapon would not have helped at all.


As to why should a caster or barbarian carry a ranged weapon... I'm not sure that inquiry really deserves an answer, but one reason would be for scenarios precisely like the one I just described...
It's stuff like that which causes people not to take you seriously. You're pretending I said things I didn't, and then insulting me because those positions you invented don't make sense.

Recap:
1. He said he was "surprised" that a fighter/barbarian didn't attack with a Wounding Crossbow of Pure Good and Cold Iron bolts.
2. I asked how in the world a player could be expected to be carrying those unusual and highly-specific items.
3. You pretended I had asked why he would have any ranged weapons in general.

[Angelus_dead]

I pulled a wounding light repeater of puncturing in Gianthold Tor once, and I have since been able to see it in action in Ritual Sacrifice and Rainbow in the Dark on the guy I traded it too. He wound up with 3 times more kills than the rest of the party combined. It wasn't a matter of DPS differential, as most things were dying before the melee even got to them (and I wasn't helping things on my sorceror by using Hold Monster as my spell of choice).
Are you once again making jokes to undermine your stated position? Which side are you on?


Contrary to A_D's statements, a four ranged ranger party is incredibly effective, and they don't need a cleric
They're less effective than those same characters going melee, though. The only exception to that would be if the characters were very badly built (low str and no finesse).

[Raithe]

Recap:
1. You said you were "surprised" that a fighter/barbarian didn't attack with a Wounding Crossbow of Pure Good and Cold Iron bolts.
2. I asked you how in the world you'd expect a player to be carrying those unusual and highly-specific items.
3. You pretended I had asked why he would have any ranged weapons in general.

1) And I explained that the crossbow reference was a "just for fun" figurative icon. I used a concrete, named example in a generic context so that I didn't have to provide a concrete example later. My bad.
2) Ummm.. that would be because they know something about the Subterrane and its denizens. The first Wounding of Pure Good crossbow I ever came across is now sitting in my strength-based fighters bank, because I knew exactly what it would be good for.
3) I thought you were asking the more general question. Again, my bad. Refer to my answer for #2.

[Raithe]

Are you once again making jokes to undermine your stated position? Which side are you on?


Nothing undermines my position. A caster should be expected to cast spells that eliminates mobs or reduces their ability to attack. It should also be expected that there be some kind of a caster or crowd-controller in the party. Ignoring the contributions of such (as I know you love to do) is part of the failure of anti-ranged thinking. I actually added the "joke" (it wasn't) as a meaningful addition to the concept I was advocating.

[Angelus_dead]

Nothing undermines my position.
Maybe you can't tell...


A caster should be expected to cast spells that eliminates mobs or reduces their ability to attack. It should also be expected that there be some kind of a caster or crowd-controller in the party. Ignoring the contributions of such (as I know you love to do) is part of the failure of anti-ranged thinking.
Wrong in several ways. Obviously, you are wrong to accuse me of "loving" to ignore things like that. But more importantly, the fact that someone with a puncturing repeater was scoring kills is laughably meaningless if a sorcerer was already defeating the monsters with Hold or Stone spells.

When the monster has been frozen with magic, it's beaten. The caster did it, and whoever happens to get the kill by finishing it off with a weapon is uninteresting. Just because it can steal some kills is no way to advocate that ranged combat is powerful.

Your story looks more like a counterexample to show that ranged is weak.

[Angelus_dead]

2) Ummm.. that would be because they know something about the Subterrane and its denizens.
You had just got through explaining that you thought that guy was undergeared, as demonstrated by his inability to kill the Protectors of Xyzzy. If a fighter/barb didn't have a usable melee weapon, why would you think he'd have a usable crossbow?


The first Wounding of Pure Good crossbow I ever came across is now sitting in my strength-based fighters bank, because I knew exactly what it would be good for.
Lol again!!

[Raithe]

When the monster has been frozen with magic, it's beaten. The caster did it, and whoever happens to get the kill by finishing it off with a weapon is uninteresting. Just because it can steal some kills is no way to advocate that ranged combat is powerful.


1) There is no way to hold every monster in either of the quests. Some are elementals or constructs and are immune, and I have grossly insufficient spell points on my sorceress to even immobilize half of the others.

2) Hold monster is a "spell of choice" for an enchantment-focused sorceror because it has a higher DC and lower spell point cost than many other "instakill" type spells. Yet it is remarkably unuseful if someone doesn't complete their end of the "deal" - most mobs will save against it in mere seconds if damage isn't finalized first. It happens to be a particularly good example of the peripheral advantages of ranged combat, which is why I used it.

[nbhs275]

1) There is no way to hold every monster in either of the quests. Some are elementals or constructs and are immune, and I have grossly insufficient spell points on my sorceress to even immobilize half of the others.


Man, you really are that bad arent you? Lets look at ritual. Gnolls! Who all have maybe 500-1000 hitpoints. Now a good sorc can toast them with a DBF that hits for 350-1200, for 60ish sp, out of a pool that should be about 2300+. Which means a sorc using the same "tactics" that you think makes ranged so good, cant round up 20+ gnolls and kill them all with 1-2 spells? Yea, makin alot of sense.
2) Hold monster is a "spell of choice" for an enchantment-focused sorceror because it has a higher DC and lower spell point cost than many other "instakill" type spells. Yet it is remarkably unuseful if someone doesn't complete their end of the "deal" - most mobs will save against it in mere seconds if damage isn't finalized first. It happens to be a particularly good example of the peripheral advantages of ranged combat, which is why I used it.

Hold monster is a level 5 spell. Finger of death is 7. Even with the two spell focus feats, they are the same DC. And finger kills outright, and works on ellies. But of course, FTS does the same thing as hold, but isnt stopped by FoM, and has a longer duration. Either way, if your using a HOLD type spell as a kill, what stops that sorcerer from just carrying some puncturing weapons and finishing the mob himself? Nothing. And thats probably the reason your deluded into thinking ranged is uber, and my sorc can solo prey.

[Raithe]

Hold monster is a level 5 spell. Finger of death is 7. Even with the two spell focus feats, they are the same DC. And finger kills outright, and works on ellies. But of course, FTS does the same thing as hold, but isnt stopped by FoM, and has a longer duration. Either way, if your using a HOLD type spell as a kill, what stops that sorcerer from just carrying some puncturing weapons and finishing the mob himself? Nothing. And thats probably the reason your deluded into thinking ranged is uber, and my sorc can solo prey.

Cool, you are soooooo uber. I can and have soloed Chamber, Rainbow, Ritual, and Sleeping on not just my sorceror, but some I've done on my bard (Sleeping, Ritual) and ranger (Rainbow, Chamber). You don't have to kill most anything in these quests. You think the 7 minute completion of Rainbow was a conquest run?

The whole argument for why ranged is "gimped" hinges on DPS, and that is actually a meaningless statistic wherever you go in this game.

Note: I was playing my sorc to avoid premature mana loss and to make other party member's experience enjoyable as much as I could. I typically only cast hold monster and sometimes Otto's on things that I thought might actually be able to damage the party. If I had been obscenely obsessed with kill counts, DPS, or the like I may have done things differently. Thank the heavens and hells that all the people playing DDO aren't like the anti-ranged presence in this thread.

Double Note: Wielding a Dreamspitter puts Hold Monster over the top on my sorc, ignoring the possibility that I may have improved heightening.

Triple Note: And I never said hold monster was the only spell I used. I always use FTS, Banish, Scorching Ray, Disintegrate, Solid Fog, and Otto's wherever I go.

[nbhs275]

Cool, you are soooooo uber. I can and have soloed Chamber, Rainbow, Ritual, and Sleeping on not just my sorceror, but some I've done on my bard (Sleeping) and ranger (Rainbow, Chamber). You don't have to kill most anything in these quests. You think the 7 minute completion of Rainbow was a conquest run?

The whole argument for why ranged is "gimped" hinges on DPS, and that is actually a meaningless statistic wherever you go in this game.

Note: I was playing my sorc to avoid premature mana loss and to make other party member's experience enjoyable as much as I could. I typically only cast hold monster and sometimes Otto's on things that I thought might actually be able to damage the party. If I had been obscenely obsessed with kill counts, DPS, or the like I may have done things differently. Thank the heavens and hells that all the people playing DDO aren't like the anti-ranged presence in this thread.

Double Note: Wielding a Dreamspitter puts Hold Monster over the top on my sorc, ignoring the possibility that I may have improved heightening.

Ok, lets see you go kill some red names without DPS. Someone say like harry.

[Angelus_dead]

You don't have to kill most anything in these quests. You think the 7 minute completion of Rainbow was a conquest run?
That doesn't work as an argument in favor of ranged combat, as has already been explained in this thread.


The whole argument for why ranged is "gimped" hinges on DPS, and that is actually a meaningless statistic wherever you go in this game.
Wrong, as reading this thread would demonstrate.


Note: I was playing my sorc to avoid premature mana loss and to make other party member's experience enjoyable as much as I could.
Good for you: that does nothing to indicate that ranged is non-inferior to melee.


Double Note: Wielding a Dreamspitter puts Hold Monster over the top on my sorc, ignoring the possibility that I may have improved heightening.
Most casters have better gear than that.

[Raithe]

Ok, lets see you go kill some red names without DPS. Someone say like harry.

Reading comprehension FTW. I didn't say DPS didn't exist or that it wasn't needed, I said it was a meaningless statistic as no amount or lack of DPS in this horribly overgeared game makes any sort of real difference in gameplay.

As far as ranged combat is concerned, I have been in several successful Shrouds where ranged was used as the predominant type of DPS against Arraetrikos.


Most casters have better gear than that.

No, they don't. Wielding a greensteel sceptre and a spell pen/skiver/spellfocus/whatever weapon will not be any different in enchantment spell DC (and doesn't necessarily benefit the other schools more than enchantment) and will have the negative impact of being semi-worthless weapons to wield against held mobs.

[bobbryan2]

No, they don't. Wielding a greensteel sceptre and a spell pen/skiver/spellfocus/whatever weapon will not be any different in enchantment spell DC (and doesn't necessarily benefit the other schools more than enchantment) and will have the negative impact of being semi-worthless weapons to wield against held mobs.

Actually.. if you're at an odd stat in your casting stat... a greensteel will give you a +2 DC to enchantment AND every other spell.

[Ranmaru2]

A. Acid Arrow is the best single target Damage-to-SP output spell
B. Actually, Wall of Fire does more damage per sp even if there's only one target.
C. There was more than one target.
D. The mobs were Protectors of Xyzzy. Do you have any idea how many thousands of hitpoints those guys have? Attempting to damage their hp is foolhardy.
E. The mobs were already in the middle of being killed by manyshot con damage, so attacking their hitpoints would have been even more pointless than it was normally.


-Nobody here has made that claim. Don't ask someone to justify things he doesn't even believe in.

A) How? The damage over time takes much too long to be of any real relevance and if we're going based on that, then Burning Blood actually is the BEST for that. Not only do you get the Acid damage, but you get the Fire damage as well. It's quite the mean spell.
B) Not really, considering the 85 sp to about the equivalent amount of damage (non-crit)
c) I understand that
D) Yep, Firewalled plenty of them to death in the hound controlling their aggro on my caster. (they cook quite nice in Solid Fogs)
E) It's not really pointless (the wounding kiting/killing) if your tanks don't have AC and become a garden of stone slabs for a render to carve up. Heck if you can aggro all of 'em with firewalls so that the other tanks can more easily take care of beholders, I don't see why a caster (WF of course, makes self healing much easier) shouldn't get the render's aggro.

- You've made that claim, or have you forgotten already where-in twice you've claimed that fixing Ranged will make going into Melee useless. Do you not read your own posts?

Additional thought/question: What negative affects will a 50% increase in shooting speed (that seems to be the increase that might bring it right up with S&B, according to turial's numbers in the thread you linked that he made) have?

[nbhs275]

Reading comprehension FTW. I didn't say DPS didn't exist or that it wasn't needed, I said it was a meaningless statistic as no amount or lack of DPS in this horribly overgeared game makes any sort of real difference in gameplay.

Really? You NEVER said it wasnt needed? And i quote


The whole argument for why ranged is "gimped" hinges on DPS, and that is actually a meaningless statistic wherever you go in this game.


So if DPS is meaningless, please, show me how you kill a rednamed without it. You can't, and because of this, higher damage is always better. Because when you take longer to kill an enemy, it costs more in the way of healing, buffing, and time. Sure you can kill harry using ranged attacks, but its so ****ing slow compared to a real DPS group. How many rounds does it take when your entire party is ranging? 5+ rounds? A real party with true DPS kills him in 1(ONE) round. Which saves everyone time and money.


As far as ranged combat is concerned, I have been in several successful Shrouds where ranged was used as the predominant type of DPS against Arraetrikos.

Good for you. Now please, show me how thats in any way as good as using melee which is faster, cheaper, and uses high DPS.

No, they don't. Wielding a greensteel sceptre and a spell pen/skiver/spellfocus/whatever weapon will not be any different in enchantment spell DC (and doesn't necessarily benefit the other schools more than enchantment) and will have the negative impact of being semi-worthless weapons to wield against held mobs.

Man, your sorc must be as gimpy as your ranger. A greensteel item brings a real sorc to an even number, for a total of +2 DC on ALL SPELLS, which again stacks with napkin putting an enheightened finger 3 DC above hold monster, and if both are heightened, finger is still 1 higher. Also, if your using finger on the mobs where it works, guess what!? you need not even attack it. Wow, that arguements dead.

Or if your set on holds(say using FTS on prey giants or mass hold in monastery) you simply throw that GS item in the offhand, and use a puncturing in the main. Which is still faster then dreamspitter.


Really man, every post you make, your setting your self up for more ridicule as you continue to contridict yourself, make weak indefensable arguements, and show your complete lack of common sense.

Oh, and again, understanding that high DPS is better then low DPS is in no way worship of numbers. Numerology refers to the usage of things like "13" being a lucky or unlucky number, or the fascination some have with 23. Not the idea that having more is better. Unless you want to label every working person who wants a pay raise as such.

[Angelus_dead]

- You've made that claim, or have you forgotten already where-in twice you've claimed that fixing Ranged will make going into Melee useless. Do you not read your own posts?
Wrong: I did not make a claim like that.

I guess I should stop responding to someone who doesn't read.

[nbhs275]

Cool, you are soooooo uber. I can and have soloed Chamber, Rainbow, Ritual, and Sleeping on not just my sorceror, but some I've done on my bard (Sleeping, Ritual) and ranger (Rainbow, Chamber). You don't have to kill most anything in these quests. You think the 7 minute completion of Rainbow was a conquest run?

Triple Note: And I never said hold monster was the only spell I used. I always use FTS, Banish, Scorching Ray, Disintegrate, Solid Fog, and Otto's wherever I go.

Oh and 2 things on this part. That rainbow run had really zero to do about DPS the way it worked out. It was whoever had DD, and AC. Which again, plays no role in the DPS ability of anything.

And if your still using ottos and disintegrate on a regular basis, your way behind the curve. Why dance when it could be dead. Disintegrate is only useful against mobs who are simply immune to everything else, like golems. Everything else its the worst use of mana.

[Ranmaru2]

That's why the various people who request a large increase to ranged DPS are making a mistake: that would make ranged become better, it still wouldn't stack with melee, and there'd hardly be any justification to melee anymore.

hi, I'm your post. please read me and respond.

[Raithe]

...A greensteel item brings a real sorc to an even number, for a total of +2 DC on ALL SPELLS, which again stacks with napkin putting an enheightened finger 3 DC above hold monster, and if both are heightened, finger is still 1 higher.

I'm afraid I'm not the one completely embarassing myself with statements like the one above...

I'll give you a little clue... heightened hold monster and heightened finger have the same base DC, the hold monster just might cost less to cast.

And there it is... the reason you might want to cast hold monster instead of finger. Less cost.

:rolleyes:

[bobbryan2]

I'm afraid I'm not the one completely embarassing myself with statements like the one above...

I'll give you a little clue... heightened hold monster and heightened finger have the same base DC, the hold monster just might cost less to cast.

And there it is... the reason you might want to cast hold monster instead of finger. Less cost.

:rolleyes:

Well.. the 'real' reason you would use one or the other is because it affects different saves.

Hold monster is going up against will saves, which many brute monsters lack in.

I don't think the 2-4 spell points actually matters.

[Raithe]

Well.. the 'real' reason you would use one or the other is because it affects different saves.

Hold monster is going up against will saves, which many brute monsters lack in.


Exactly right.



I don't think the 2-4 spell points actually matters.

It's actually probably closer to 10 spell points per cast, because I don't bother to heighten. The chances of appropriate mobs saving is probaby 1 in 20, just like with the heightened kind.

[transtemporal]

If so, that's an example of effective combined arms - the "party," if you will, at Crecy and Agincourt shield blocked in the door while the archers drew the French knights' aggro. So to speak. :)

Lol, Moorewr wins the prize for best RL-DDO analogy. :D

[transtemporal]

Nice ranged suggestions in the manyshot thread A_D. Hit the nail on the head. Would definitely go some way to increasing synergy between melee and ranged styles.

I think theres actually a few things a ranged player can do to increase that synergy right now though, if one really must use ranged combat and can't be enticed to draw melee weapons (I took my hvy rptr spellsinger out for a spin in the weekend and did all the gh walk-ups on elite and vales on hard).


Wait til melees have established aggro before adding ranged dps/stat damage
Allows the highest synergy between melee/ranged playstyles. Not as high as it would be if you were doing melee, but still higher than if you were kiting halfway around the world
Use paralyzing for cc, cursespewing/str-sapping for debuffing
If you use paralyzing, it means the tanks can use dps/stat damage weaps (fire immediately for archers, wait til melees close for grunts). Cursespewing and str-sapping just softens 'em up more. If you do uber dps, fine, use that but see below...
If you draw aggro, don't run because it prolongs the life of the mobs by making the melees run after you
And it makes you look like a little *****. Stand your ground. You'll look tough. :D
Fearsome sucks for the same reason that ranged usually does, don't wear it
Again, it prolongs the life of the mobs by making everyone run after it... er... this doesn't have so much to do with ranged, but it has kinda the same effect

[nbhs275]

I'm afraid I'm not the one completely embarassing myself with statements like the one above...

I'll give you a little clue... heightened hold monster and heightened finger have the same base DC, the hold monster just might cost less to cast.

And there it is... the reason you might want to cast hold monster instead of finger. Less cost.

:rolleyes:

Wait, so your arguement is if you heighten, its the same DC and cheaper, but you dont heighten? And no, the greensteel brings everything up by 2, meaning the FoD is getting the same amount as if you where using a dreamspitter. Add in the fact that it stacks with the napkin, and the dreamspitter actually makes holds have a LOWER DC.

So right there, everything is on an even playing ground for DC bonuses. But FoD finishs the job, while hold is only a partial kill. Nevermind the broad immunity.

See, the reason im not being constantly embarrassed by my statements, is because mine are factual, and informed. Yours are anything but.

[Missing_Minds]

*reads through the many new posts since his last one*

I think I understand the view points finally.

Ugh.. I'm with AD on this one. Taken from the stand point of myself, your average player that wants to use teamwork constantly to where in just about any given combat all players can do their job is what I want.

What I see Raithe pointing out constantly is one individual range person kiting, and using that kiting ability/tactic of an individual to say DPS on range is king. While yes, it does work without question, and you can do a **** ton SUM dps that way... what do the other 5 people do while one person kites? In my experience, we leave that range person to die or catch up 10 minutes later while we continue on. It isn't much for team play which the Devs have stated that is what they want from this game. Constant team play, not solo action.

Increasing ranged ability/combat will only make average players have more fun, and highly twitch skilled people like Raithe even more effective. While I can not state numbers because I have none, I am 100% certain that the number of twitch players is FAR below that of average none skilled ones.

[barecm]

Melee folks get upset with rangers kiting mobs around. The issue is not that the ranger doesn't know how to play, it is that the game does not afford you a different vialbe option if you want to use a bow. If ranged combat was more viable, people would be happy to see a ranged kite a mob around killing them with no damage to the group. Because ranged combat is so gimped, people get upset with the kiting because the damage is so low. No one complains about lining up in a line at the entrace to a room to block mobs in while casters firewall/cloudkill/AOE whatever them down? Why, becaus it works better and faster. It is equally unfun to stand there while casters firewall something to death as watching a ranger circle around with a bow kiting a mob. I don't accept the statement of "just use TWF and tempest". If I want cookie cutters I will go play LoTRO or WoW or Warhammer. Ranged combat does need to fall in line with melee on the attacks/round issue. Melee already has a bunch of feats that help it with trip, armors that grant cripple and destruction, sunder, stunning blow, weapons that blind and so on and so forth. It is plainly obvious with the crippling and destruction armor that Turbine sees ranged combat as a taboo way of fighting. So why even have it? Why create deepwood sniper and arcane archer if you do not want people using ranged combat? I just get so frustrated with this game and its treatment of ranged combat. This is not a new issue, it has been broken and imbalanced since release.

[riexau]

While a stance would be nice, I'd settle for a 30 sec duration and 1 min cooldown on manyshot. Or make manyshot a 'boost' ability - 20 sec duration, 30 sec cooldown, consumes one action boost per use.

[FluffyCalico]

Well.. the 'real' reason you would use one or the other is because it affects different saves.

Hold monster is going up against will saves, which many brute monsters lack in.

I don't think the 2-4 spell points actually matters.

Why hold it when you can charm it and make it tank one of its friends. Just keep break spell handy.

[arcane_nite]

Huh... most casters don't have time to run away from me...

I dunno...

such a e peen reply. u fishing?

[bobbryan2]

such a e peen reply. u fishing?

You responded a thread this late to bait a comment made on the first page?

[arcane_nite]

You responded a thread this late to bait a comment made on the first page?

and u replied why?

[arcane_nite]

You responded a thread this late to bait a comment made on the first page?

U must need to feel interesting this Sunday? Guess its actually Monday now. :cool:

[bobbryan2]

and u replied why?

Because you responded to me?

[Makdar]

...., I'm including all classes that want to use a ranged weapon (like that repeater bard, etc).

A well played bard brings a great deal more to the table beside whatever damage/kill count numbers they acheive. To dump them into the same category as a sole ranged toon is simply, wrong.