Paladin Capstone: Weapons of Good (official preview)

[Eladrin]

Paladins have received a few boosts to their damage output against their traditional foes through the Hunter of the Dead and Knight of the Chalice prestige enhancement lines, and their first capstone continues to emphasize the good fight against darkness.

Paladin Weapons of Good
Prereq: Level 20 Paladin
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction, deal 1d6 additional holy damage against all evil opponents and an additional 2d6 light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders.

This enhancement brings an extra bit of punch to a Paladin, especially when they're fighting evil outsiders. The extra dice of damage from Weapons of Good stack with other weapon enchantments, so even your common Holy Sword can become a dangerous weapon unless you're running through a quest like Purge the Heretics.

Edit:
Insert the standard "this is a preview, still subject to change, in testing, etc." disclaimer.

Edit 2:
Modified benefit to match current testing implementation.

[Ustice]

Nice addition.

[boldarblood]

that's pretty nice.

[Dirac]

Do these stack? So an extra 4d6 against undead/evil outsiders?

A capstone enhancement that is essentially: +7 for all weapon damage (+14 v evil outsiders/undead) is absolutely incredible.

[Kraldor]

Do these stack? So an extra 4d6 against undead/evil outsiders?

It says 'and' so I would assume yes.

This combined with Knight of the Chalice makes for some nice DPS.

[Eladrin]

Do these stack? So an extra 4d6 against undead/evil outsiders?
4d6 to evil undead and evil outsiders. If you run into a good aligned undead, it won't actually do anything to them.

(Also, many undead are vulnerable to Light damage, so it may end up more than that.)

[talyor]

The extra damage is nice but i will still take my evasion, UMD, and intimidation i get from 2 lvls of rogue.

[Turial]

Do these stack? So an extra 4d6 against undead/evil outsiders?



Benefit: Any weapon you wield deal 2d6 additional holy damage against non-good opponents and 2d6 additional light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders.

The part highlighted in red would seem to indicate yes.

More interesting is the holy damage against non-good opponents vs the traditional reading of holy damage vs evil opponents.

This enhancement could give paladins a nice damage boost vs neutral and other non-good creatures rather then simply against only evil creatures.

[Dexxaan]

The extra damage is nice but i will still take my evasion, UMD, and intimidation i get from 2 lvls of rogue.

You beat me. Darn. :mad:

[maddmatt70]

Oh my.. That is ridiculous and seems overpowering.. 4d6 damage against in all probability a high % of the population in the next mod. I am trying to measure that against evasion and certain build types. I would say unless you are a high ac build there is no reason to go multi-class in my opinion. Another example of where multi-classed builds get killed. A more appropriate capstone would be 1d6 against non good mobs and 1d6 more light damage against evil outsider/undead. My pally with 2 monk splash that is a high dps/moderate ac build just got gimped.

[Deathseeker]

The extra damage is nice but i will still take my evasion, UMD, and intimidation i get from 2 lvls of rogue.

Thats a good thing...if it was so overpowered it made multiclassing obsolete it would be too powerful.

Looks like a home run on this one. Super powerful, but targeted...

[riexau]

Blows the monk capstone out of the water.

[Gum]

Paladins have received a few boosts to their damage output against their traditional foes through the Hunter of the Dead and Knight of the Chalice prestige enhancement lines, and their first capstone continues to emphasize the good fight against darkness.

Paladin Weapons of Good
Prereq: Level 20 Paladin
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Any weapon you wield deal 2d6 additional holy damage against non-good opponents and 2d6 additional light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders.

While this enhancement does not make your weapon "good" aligned like the Pure Good, Holy, or Holy Burst weapon enchantments, it brings an extra bit of punch to a Paladin, especially when they're fighting evil outsiders. The extra dice of damage from Weapons of Good stack with other weapon enchantments, so even your common Holy Sword can become a dangerous weapon unless you're running through a quest like Purge the Heretics.


*Salivates*....*Still Salivating*...*I'm gonna be doing this a while, excuse me*. Very good job on this one Turbine. Two thumbs up from Gum!

[Angelus_dead]

The extra dice of damage from Weapons of Good stack with other weapon enchantments, so even your common Holy Sword can become a dangerous weapon unless you're running through a quest like Purge the Heretics.
Running with Devils could be a better example, unless the that cuts a little too close to home for you.

Anyway, this capstone looks exceedingly good, and the other melee capstones will have to be really powerful to catch up to it at all. (For reasons of flavor AND balance, I'd suggest that it do less damage to neutral humanoids than evil ones)

Makes the Rogue capstone seem pathetic by comparison (which is not necessarily a balance problem, but it will certainly make Rog20 players feel upset). Basically, the paladin capstone will make someone think twice about splashing rog2 or fig1, but rogues see no reason at all not to take fig1, ran1, or barb1.

[Inspire]

This with the Holy Avenger is gonna be teh UBERZ!

[Deathseeker]

Oh my.. That is ridiculous and seems overpowering.. 4d6 damage against in all probability a high % of the population in the next mod. I am trying to measure that against evasion and certain build types. I would say unless you are a high ac build there is no reason to go multi-class in my opinion. Another example of where multi-classed builds get killed. A more appropriate capstone would be 1d6 against non good mobs and 1d6 more light damage against evil outsider/undead. My pally with 2 monk splash that is a high dps/moderate ac build just got gimped.


You beat me. Darn. :mad:


The extra damage is nice but i will still take my evasion, UMD, and intimidation i get from 2 lvls of rogue.

And this is why it must be fun to be a Dev! LOL

[maddmatt70]

Can we respec? Seriously this is annoying.. Some capstone - the rogue for example are weak and others are extremely strong.. Prestige enhancements vary so much. Perhaps that is the super secret project - a respec option.

[Wizzly_Bear]

i like it. enhancing what they do best, eff up some evil dudes.

[frugal_gourmet]

I'm sorry, but this rocks.

I can forsee paladins being popular in some of these present end-game quests...

[maddmatt70]

And this is why it must be fun to be a Dev! LOL

Those guys all have ac builds... I don't..

[Angelus_dead]

i like it. enhancing what they do best, eff up some evil dudes.
And NON-EVIL dudes...!

[Arianrhod]

Oh my.. That is ridiculous and seems overpowering.. 4d6 damage against in all probability a high % of the population in the next mod. I am trying to measure that against evasion and certain build types. I would say unless you are a high ac build there is no reason to go multi-class in my opinion. Another example of where multi-classed builds get killed. A more appropriate capstone would be 1d6 against non good mobs and 1d6 more light damage against evil outsider/undead. My pally with 2 monk splash that is a high dps/moderate ac build just got gimped.

Considering all the fuss lately about W/P weapons, apparently implying that DPS isn't very valuable due to extremely high HP, I suspect this isn't a particularly overpowered capstone. Don't forget, it requires 20 paladin levels to get - that means it can't be combined with Tempest, Kensai, monk splash, rogue splash, or any of the other fancy multiclassing tricks people come up with to tweak their characters. It's just a way to allow a pure paladin a chance to feel they can actually contribute something other than an aura in the endgame.

[bobbryan2]

And this is why it must be fun to be a Dev! LOL

Or why it's NOT fun to roll up characters in a game that won't tell you where development is headed, and won't give you a respec function...

Just saying...

They kinda deserve the flak.

At least Eladrin is giving us this much this time around.. That being said.... this capstone hinges between being amazing and not. And no one knows for certain. It all hinges upon how important evasion is in the mext 4 levels. Before the vale, evasion wasn't a necessity. It was a perk for some nice splash builds, but that was it. Mod 6-8 made evasion an extraordinary ability, increasing survival to an amazing degree.

IF they go back to pre Mod 6 way of dungeon making, this capstone will be incredible, and all the paladins that splashed 2 monk/rogue will feel stupid. And if they keep going this direction, it could be 20d6 extra damage, and it won't matter, because you don't do any extra damage if you're dead.

[Strakeln]

Something seems out of whack here. Other capstones made me go "meh" whereas this one made me say "wow".

I suggest they all be moved to either "meh" or "wow" status, not the current grab-bag approach.

[Ministry]

Well, as the owner of 2 capped - DPS style - Pure paladins....

:D

[The_Ick]

Well i am assuming i know the answer to this, but i will ask anyway. Will that damage be included in the multipled crit damage or added afterwards?

[PurdueDave]

For 2 APs on a pure paladin, this is a no-brainer.

[Gratch]

This along with the wizard are both "Wow".

Monk, Rogue and Cleric are kind of... oh well.

I guess if they don't make the melee capstones nice, everyone will have 2 monk levels.

Says the Paly20 to the Rogue20.... "Check this out: I have 7 levels of your sneak attack damage dice... and it's on all the time against 80% of what we fight in end game. Good thing you can cheat death for your solo'ing days ahead since your wuss class will end up dps non-grata. Oh wait... there's a monk20... go group with him."

[Angelus_dead]

Something seems out of whack here. Other capstones made me go "meh" whereas this one made me say "wow".
Yeah, here are some numbers.

For a twin-khopesh fighter, getting Kensai3 gives you about +8 DPS on Arraetrikos or Suulomades, or +1.5 DPS on Sorjek .
For a twin-khopesh paladin, taking Weapon of Good gives him +53 DPS on Arraetrikos, Suulomades, and Sorjek.


Aside from being huge numbers, it also breaks the pattern of enemy-dependent power. There are two kinds of enemies DDO quests can frequently contain: neutral or evil. Good-aligned mobs can only be a rarity. The existing focus of the paladin is to be better against evil mobs but weak against neutrals... the capstone breaks that pattern.

[Memnir]

Now this is a (%%^ capstone!

[Mhykke]

I liked my aura idea better, but I'll take it. :)

[Dirac]

I'm not convinced it is a good or bad thing. It may be a great idea. There is no doubt this capstone is overwhelming compared to what else we have seen so far.

For those that think it is not worth evasion, intimidate, and UMD combined, I don't know. However, an extra feat or two for a level or two of fighter is now dramatically inferior.

[Deathseeker]

Something seems out of whack here. Other capstones made me go "meh" whereas this one made me say "wow".

I suggest they all be moved to either "meh" or "wow" status, not the current grab-bag approach.

Part of it is because a lot of the player base views anything associated with increased DPS as exciting, and anything not associated with DPS as boring.

Boring is defined by...well, whatever you find boring, so I can't say they are right or wrong...but I think that's what gives it this feel.

Playtesting will tell if the rogue, cleric and monk capstones are good or not...

[bobbryan2]

Part of it is because a lot of the player base views anything associated with increased DPS as exciting, and anything not associated with DPS as boring.

Boring is defined by...well, whatever you find boring, so I can't say they are right or wrong...but I think that's what gives it this feel.

Playtesting will tell if the rogue, cleric and monk capstones are good or not...

Hehe, I don't need to playtest to know I don't want the rogue one. It does absolutely nothing if you never die.

[Junts]

Running with Devils could be a better example, unless the that cuts a little too close to home for you.

Anyway, this capstone looks exceedingly good, and the other melee capstones will have to be really powerful to catch up to it at all. (For reasons of flavor AND balance, I'd suggest that it do less damage to neutral humanoids than evil ones)

Makes the Rogue capstone seem pathetic by comparison (which is not necessarily a balance problem, but it will certainly make Rog20 players feel upset). Basically, the paladin capstone will make someone think twice about splashing rog2 or fig1, but rogues see no reason at all not to take fig1, ran1, or barb1.


paladins have a ton of incentive to multiclass in ddo that they don't in design due to their pnp mc limitations; this helps counteract that, the paladin capstone had to be awesome, and even so a lot of paladin builds will be glad for their splashes.

[Angelus_dead]

Part of it is because a lot of the player base views anything associated with increased DPS as exciting, and anything not associated with DPS as boring.
No: they view useless things as boring.

Known capstones:
Cleric: make some squishy people a lot safer in certain fights. Partly useful.
Rogue: chance to get an occasional spell cast on you, which almost any other character could do from a clicky. Nearly useless.
Wizard: more spellpoints, stronger saving throws, and cheaper metamagic. That improves DPS and every other kind of spell, and is Highly useful.
Paladin: more DPS against every boss, and even more DPS against the most important bosses. Highly useful.
Monk: you get more Ki, when you already have tons of Ki. Slightly useful.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Well, as the owner of 2 capped - DPS style - Pure paladins....

:D
mini.....we've talked about this before. silver flame clubs are not considered DPS

/sigh

[Angelus_dead]

Hehe, I don't need to playtest to know I don't want the rogue one. It does absolutely nothing if you never die.
And if you do die, it still probably does nothing, because 90% of the time a cleric will rez you without waiting for Cheat Death to trigger.

[gfunk]

when you add it all up it seems sorta spectacular.. just for a second assume you are a khopesh wielding pure knight of chalice who gets a +5 holyburst silver khopesh of greater evil outsider bane (assuming something like that might exist when the cap goes up to 20)

4d6 - knight of chalice III
2d6 - capstone
2d6 - holy
4d6 - holy burst
3d6 - greater evil outsider bane
15d6 (+52.5 avg damage)

plus smites...seems like alot to me

[talyor]

I would really like this capstone if it would include a +12 bonus to intimidate skill that stacks with all other bonuses basically giving full intimidate to paladins. pure pally half ranks = base intim 11.5 add the +12 and you get 23.5 and since half ranks dont count you end up with the full intimidate ranks.

[dragnmoon]

This has a Paladin Feel to this.. I like it..

Now If just change the Rogue one to have a Rogue feel to it.. I will be happy..;) *Something for SA would be nice*

[Angelus_dead]

2d6 - capstone
Lol wrong. The capstone gives you 4d6 against Evil Outsiders. Unless that's what you mean by Holy Burst on the next line??

[Yaga_Nub]

I liked my aura idea better, but I'll take it. :)

Eladrin did say that there were going to be more than one capstone for each class so don't give up on your idea just yet Mhykke.

[Asherons_Chosen]

Yeah, here are some numbers.

For a twin-khopesh fighter, getting Kensai3 gives you about +8 DPS on Arraetrikos or Suulomades, or +1.5 DPS on Sorjek .
For a twin-khopesh paladin, taking Weapon of Good gives him +53 DPS on Arraetrikos, Suulomades, and Sorjek.


Aside from being huge numbers, it also breaks the pattern of enemy-dependent power. There are two kinds of enemies DDO quests can frequently contain: neutral or evil. Good-aligned mobs can only be a rarity. The existing focus of the paladin is to be better against evil mobs but weak against neutrals... the capstone breaks that pattern.

Break down the +53 for me. How does that calculation come out.

[Deathseeker]

when you add it all up it seems sorta spectacular.. just for a second assume you are a khopesh wielding pure knight of chalice who gets a +5 holyburst silver khopesh of greater evil outsider bane (assuming something like that might exist when the cap goes up to 20)

4d6 - knight of chalice III
2d6 - capstone
2d6 - holy
4d6 - holy burst
3d6 - greater evil outsider bane
15d6 (+52.5 avg damage)

plus smites...seems like alot to me

Yes, but how does that same build look against the Stormreaver for example?

This is very dependent on what the upcoming content looks like...

But for shroud...well, here comes the lfm...

"Shroud speed run, Elite...KoC pallys, 1 bard, 1 cleric needed"

[gfunk]

Lol wrong. The capstone gives you 4d6 against Evil Outsiders. Unless that's what you mean by Holy Burst on the next line??

nope, just missed the 2d6 light component.. forgot that hurt evil outsiders.

[Deathseeker]

This has a Paladin Feel to this.. I like it..

Now If just change the Rogue one to have a Rogue feel to it.. I will be happy..;) *Something for SA would be nice*

I do have to agree a Rogue capstone that allowe Sneak Attack on undead would have been pretty cool...

[maddmatt70]

This capstone is the best justification for a respec yet.. Well tempest 3 is pretty good justification for all those 3+ level splash chars. So where is the respec option - I mean really...

[Angelus_dead]

Break down the +53 for me. How does that calculation come out.
GTWF = 2.7 aps
haste+zeal = 3.8 aps
3.8 aps * 4d6 dpa = 53 dps

[Milolyen]

nope, just missed the 2d6 light component.. forgot that hurt evil outsiders.

Actually you forgot more than that.

With KotC 3 it also adds another greater evil outsider bane to your weapon that stacks with the weapons greater evil outsider bane so it is actually 6d6 - greater evil outsider bane making the total 20d6 (3d6 GEOB + 2d6 Light dmg + your 15d6) ;)

Milolyen

[Yaga_Nub]

This capstone is the best justification for a respec yet.. Well tempest 3 is pretty good justification for all those 3+ level splash chars. So where is the respec option - I mean really...

There's is a respec feature already.

It's called REROLL.

[Mhykke]

There's is a respec feature already.

It's called REROLL.

Come on Yaga, let's not start this silliness here. This is a thread for worshipping at the paladin's feat. ;):)

[Angelus_dead]

There's is a respec feature already.
It's called REROLL.
Anti-respec whining is thataway (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166202).

[Dirac]

nevermind. I wanted to agree with someone, not get involved in a derailment. This is really awesome for pure paladins

[Ustice]

when you add it all up it seems sorta spectacular.. just for a second assume you are a khopesh wielding pure knight of chalice who gets a +5 holyburst silver khopesh of greater evil outsider bane (assuming something like that might exist when the cap goes up to 20)

4d6 - knight of chalice III
2d6 - capstone
2d6 - holy
4d6 - holy burst
3d6 - greater evil outsider bane
15d6 (+52.5 avg damage)

plus smites...seems like alot to me

Don't forget about the Holy Avenger that we are supposed to be seeing sometime soon. Who knows what that will be.


Oh, and you are forgetting the +9 (Greater Evil Outsider Bane gives it an effective +4) making +61.5 average damage.

[Angelus_dead]

I'll guess here... but to compete with paladins as a whole, the fighter capstone needs to be along the lines of
Battlemaster- You have +2 strength, +5% competence attack speed, and all your fighter action boosts last twice as long.

[Yaga_Nub]

Come on Yaga, let's not start this silliness here. This is a thread for worshipping at the paladin's feat. ;):)

I'm not the one that started it! I just finished it.


Anti-respec whining is thataway (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166202).

I don't whine. Whining is for the weak. I tell you how it's going to be whether you like it or not and then belt you for being a sniveling weakling.

[Nyvn]

Really? Wow, I'm kinda speechless this is pretty amazing. Really makes staying pure pally worth it.

[Gornn]

Honestly, I just made a dual wielding Paladin. I'm a little sorry I multi-classed into Rogue, now. I think this capstone is very cool. Admittedly I've only read a couple of these, but this one is by far the best I've seen and really enhances Pallys for endgame play. Assuming Mod 9 takes place in Shavarath! :D

[Deathseeker]

Honestly, I just made a dual wielding Paladin. I'm a little sorry I multi-classed into Rogue, now. I think this capstone is very cool. Admittedly I've only read a couple of these, but this one is by far the best I've seen and really enhances Pallys for endgame play. Assuming Mod 9 takes place in Shavarath! :D

Yes, but all of the outsiders there are lawful good...and immune to smites...

[Eladrin]

I'll guess here... but to compete with paladins as a whole, the fighter capstone needs to be along the lines of
Battlemaster- You have +2 strength, +5% competence attack speed, and all your fighter action boosts last twice as long.
It's not exactly that, and I actually named it Weapon Alacrity, but that's a story for another day...

We'll see which one the dice pick next time.

[Mhykke]

It's not exactly that, and I actually named it Weapon Alacrity, but that's a story for another day...

We'll see which one the dice pick next time.

:eek:

[Mhykke]

Yes, but all of the outsiders there are lawful good...and immune to smites...

And don't forget they get healed by paladin auras....;)

[Wizzly_Bear]

It's not exactly that, and I actually named it Weapon Alacrity, but that's a story for another day...

We'll see which one the dice pick next time.


:eek:
seconded :eek::eek:

[frugal_gourmet]

It's not exactly that, and I actually named it Weapon Alacrity, but that's a story for another day...

We'll see which one the dice pick next time.

I take it he was pretty close, though.

Hmm... the first D&D game to feature pure fighters?

[Deathseeker]

It's not exactly that, and I actually named it Weapon Alacrity, but that's a story for another day...

We'll see which one the dice pick next time.

Ok, now that is pretty wicked to drop on us on a Friday evening! Very devious indeed...

Let the speculation commence!

[maddmatt70]

I'm not the one that started it! I just finished it.



I don't whine. Whining is for the weak. I tell you how it's going to be whether you like it or not and then belt you for being a sniveling weakling.

Sure there is a cancel the account option as well. You are not the boss of me mad or whatever you go by. I signed up to play dungeons and dragons not a game with twinked out weapons and gear, casters that do a gadzillion points of damage, and healers that heal a gadzillion points of healing. Capstones don't exist in real D&D and if this stops resembling real d&d at all bye bye. It is very frustrating the arbitrary nature of this game.

I have invested a fair amount of time into my characters like alot of folks. I have a paladin 14 monk 2; ranger 11 fighter 4 barbarian 1; and pure level 16 fighter. The initial plan for these characters was a paladin 18 monk 2; ranger 11 fighter 8 barbarian 1 and fighter 20. All builds work well in pnp with the possible exception of the fighter level 20. It look like on the data we have seen thus far that all these builds are rerolls. Fighters shouldn't exist in ddo, paladins unless high ac builds should be pure and rangers should be 18 ranger 1 monk 1 rogue builds unless the ranger capstone is also broken.

[Mhykke]

I have invested a fair amount of time into my characters like alot of folks. I have a paladin 14 monk 2; ranger 11 fighter 4 barbarian 1; and pure level 16 fighter. The initial plan for these characters was an 18 paladin monk 2; ranger 11 fighter 8 barbarian 1 and fighter 20. All builds work well in pnp with the possible exception of the fighter level 20. It look like on the data we have seen thus far that all these builds are rerolls. Fighters shouldn't exist in ddo, paladins unless high ac builds should be pure and rangers should be 18 ranger 1 monk 1 rogue builds unless the ranger capstone is also broken.

Matt, believe me, I'm one of the biggest proponents of respecs, simply due to the fairness issue, among others. But I don't know if all of those are automatic rerolls. I mean, if I were you, I'd be comforted in the fact that you splashed your paladin with monk. Higher AC and evasion is a decent tradeoff. I'd be much more cheesed off if I had splashed fighter onto a paladin. As for the pure fighter, from Eladrin's hint, the fighter capstone sounds to be pretty nice itself....I wouldn't give up on that one just yet...

[Lifespawn]

Sure there is a cancel the account option as well. You are not the boss of me mad or whatever you go by. I signed up to play dungeons and dragons not a game with twinked out weapons and gear, casters that do a gadzillion points of damage, and healers that heal a gadzillion points of healing. Capstones don't exist in real D&D and if this stops resembling real d&d at all bye bye. It is very frustrating the arbitrary nature of this game.

I have invested a fair amount of time into my characters like alot of folks. I have a paladin 14 monk 2; ranger 11 fighter 4 barbarian 1; and pure level 16 fighter. The initial plan for these characters was an paladin 18 monk 2; ranger 11 fighter 8 barbarian 1 and fighter 20. All builds work well in pnp with the possible exception of the fighter level 20. It look like on the data we have seen thus far that all these builds are rerolls. Fighters shouldn't exist in ddo, paladins unless high ac builds should be pure and rangers should be 18 ranger 1 monk 1 rogue builds unless the ranger capstone is also broken.


this in no way screws over 18 mon 2 pally builds cmon man 2 free feats evasion and more ac don't get me wrong the damage is nice but who cares you have evasion and 2 more feats.

And the 18 pally 2 rogue is even better with umd evasion ol sneak attacks extra dex intimidate it's a great capstone but doesn't break the 18/2xx splashes atall.

[Griphon]

Yeah, here are some numbers.

For a twin-khopesh fighter, getting Kensai3 gives you about +8 DPS on Arraetrikos or Suulomades, or +1.5 DPS on Sorjek .
For a twin-khopesh paladin, taking Weapon of Good gives him +53 DPS on Arraetrikos, Suulomades, and Sorjek.


Aside from being huge numbers, it also breaks the pattern of enemy-dependent power. There are two kinds of enemies DDO quests can frequently contain: neutral or evil. Good-aligned mobs can only be a rarity. The existing focus of the paladin is to be better against evil mobs but weak against neutrals... the capstone breaks that pattern.

*sigh*
Thanks for once again pointing out how much Kensai is lacking compared to everything else.
At this rate I see no point in holding off shelving my pure fighter.
(HOPE They'll fix things.)

[Angelus_dead]

Yes, but all of the outsiders there are lawful good...and immune to smites...
"Beware mortal, for centuries ago a devil tricked me into a mutual defense pact. Turn back now, or honor demands I oppose thee!"

Yeah, maybe 25% of the mod9 mobs could say that when they aggro.

[elraido]

Well my pos pos pos Khopesh just got better and now my holy burst bastard sword of greater evil outsider bane is looking mighty fine as well.

[Griphon]

It's not exactly that, and I actually named it Weapon Alacrity, but that's a story for another day...

We'll see which one the dice pick next time.

*twitch*

Can't get excited about it... Too many issues envolved... Will it stack with Haste? If not.. No point.. Will it even compare to the Food Processor PRE?.. Er sorry.. Tempest? Probably not..

I think I've lost most the ability to get excited about the idea..

[Borror0]

This capstone is excessively good.

[daniel7]

That's a nice capstone!

[Deathseeker]

This capstone is excessively good.

I think if it were vs evil instead of non-good, it would be sized a little more appropriately.

But, let's see what the fighter capstone (better be huge), barbarian (im on the fence here) and the ranger capstone (better be weaksauce for melees) bring so we can compare all together...

[elraido]

I think if it were vs evil instead of non-good, it would be sized a little more appropriately.

But, let's see what the fighter capstone (better be huge), barbarian (im on the fence here) and the ranger capstone (better be weaksauce for melees) bring so we can compare all together...

The rangers should get dual wielding bows. Now that would rock. :D

[jakeelala]

Sure there is a cancel the account option as well. You are not the boss of me mad or whatever you go by. I signed up to play dungeons and dragons not a game with twinked out weapons and gear, casters that do a gadzillion points of damage, and healers that heal a gadzillion points of healing. Capstones don't exist in real D&D and if this stops resembling real d&d at all bye bye. It is very frustrating the arbitrary nature of this game.

I have invested a fair amount of time into my characters like alot of folks. I have a paladin 14 monk 2; ranger 11 fighter 4 barbarian 1; and pure level 16 fighter. The initial plan for these characters was a paladin 18 monk 2; ranger 11 fighter 8 barbarian 1 and fighter 20. All builds work well in pnp with the possible exception of the fighter level 20. It look like on the data we have seen thus far that all these builds are rerolls. Fighters shouldn't exist in ddo, paladins unless high ac builds should be pure and rangers should be 18 ranger 1 monk 1 rogue builds unless the ranger capstone is also broken.

I think you're overreacting quite a bit here. I just rolled a 14 pally /1 monk (not capped yet) and frankly, at lvl 15 I bit the bullet and went monk even though I knew pally capstone was coming soon.

BUT I KNEW IT WAS COMING. I DID NOT know it would be good, or if it would suck. All I knew is it was coming. Frankly, 4d6 on some mobs is really nice, granted, but does it REALLY gimp you over that 4-8 AC and evasion and TWO feats you got for going 2 monk?

I highly doubt it. If it even leaves you behind at all, it's a negligible amount. Now I agree that respecs need to be offered. But threatening to quit over your own decision to take advantage of multiclassing that shouldnt even BE ALLOWED in real PnP, and then crying fowl about not following PnP rules because it doesn't make you (self-perceived anyway) the best, is a bit silly, don't you think?

I wish I could go 20 pally now too, but 18 pally will be 90% of the damage, and a bunch of other extras from the monk levels. Let's try to keep some perspective here.

[Borror0]

I think if it were vs evil instead of non-good, it would be sized a little more appropriately.
I'm just getting worried of the DPS pure paladin are going to deal to Evil Outsiders...

[Delt]

Mmm, very nice capstone. I wasn't willing to wait for Pali's to get better (deleted both back around GiantHold release), but it's nice to see em get their due -- with proper incentive to drop the rog/monk splashes.

[DelScorcho]

Its a nice capstone, but the one concern I have is it further limits pallys to evil outsider or undead specialists. I still think a 2 level monk or 2 rogue splash is much better than the capstone, as you either get AC plus 2 feats and evasion or evasion, max intimidate and UMD, +1 dex enhancement and rogue haste boost.

[Angelus_dead]

It's not exactly that, and I actually named it Weapon Alacrity, but that's a story for another day...
We'll see which one the dice pick next time.
The problem there is that is if the fighter20 capstone is good enough to catch up to the offensive advantage enjoyed by paladins and rangers, it will be unfair to someone with 1-19 levels of fighter. Just like front-loaded classes are bad, back-loaded classes are also poor game design. It's not balanced for a person to be trucking away for 19 levels weak and then BAM, level 20 makes him strong.

That's imbalanced both towards a fighter19/any1 build, and also towards the pure fighters who haven't hit 20 yet.

[Shuluth989]

By splashing 2 levels of another class, you will also be losing Divine Sacrifice III @ level 19 (+2d6 light damage) in addition to the capstone. I would also bet that most mc builds used cha build points elsewhere and missed out on even more dps with the divine might enhancement line. Food for thought if DPS is the name of your game :cool:

[Aesop]

Potent...

Weapon Alacrity?... Didn't we already see you guys try to pull that one out about 1.5 years ago.


Eladrin (a little off topic here) there are some things a little out of Whack that I'm really hoping you guys are thinking about


1. Kensai is a little underpowered. Could we get a little more love in that one... like add in a Competance Bonus to Weapon Speed... it seems to me the supreme master with of a weapon should know how to use it with more alacrity than other people. Not a huge boost just about 5 or so % across the levels

2. Pretty Please with Ice Cream and a cherry on top can we make Bow Strength a part of the Point Blank Shot Feat (in addition to Ranger level 1). Not every Archer should be forced to splash a level of Ranger to do this.

3. Rogue capstone could use a little love. The Capstone really doesn't seem to be that good over all... especially lined up against something like this. Rogue essentially get nothing at level 20 and have no reason not to MC.

4. Same thing with the Cleric Capstone

5. My two pet projects. Any Chance at a discourse with yall about S&B and Ranged combat.

6. New Feat etc... Can we get some heads up on Feat Spells etc at some point in time.

7. I know I'm greedy... but I like the game and like feeling a part of it... sorry



there is other stuff but I don't wanna start feeling like I'm whining

Aesop

[Elsiah]

I knew i stayed pure for a reason! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!





....nice!:D:D:D:D:D

[Jay203]

And NON-GOOD dudes...!

fixed it for ya :cool::cool:

[Wizzly_Bear]

why are so many of you bi***ing about kensai vs this. this is a capstone, kensai is a prc. wait until they tell us what the fighter capstone is. youre comparing apples to oranges.

[nate007]

I think it is a great idea for capstone.It does seem like alot of ppl want to complain about everythying however that makes me sad.I really dont see the benefit of crying about what one class gets over the other as long as nothing is being changed to existing cha I.E. W/P lol then have fun with what the devs give ya dont wine after all it's not like you made 2 diff shroud items and managed to get get 3 diff w/p rapiers and bought a whole bunch of sheild wands, ran the raides over and over to get umd items just to have you tempest nerfed after it have been out for like 5 months lol

[Angelus_dead]

why are so many of you bi***ing about kensai vs this. this is a capstone, kensai is a prc. wait until they tell us what the fighter capstone is. youre comparing apples to oranges.
Kensai3 is a damage-boosting passive enhancement requiring many levels of a melee class.
Weapon of Good is a damage-boosting passive enhancement requiring many levels of a melee class.

Their cost and build availability is not identical, but it's close enough for comparisons to be useful. It's also very useful to enumerate the paladin capstone as objective DPS, so it can be compared against the benefit from other levels; either what you get by going 0-2 in fighter, rogue, monk, or ranger, as well as what you gain from pal18-19 or pal16-17.

Anytime a class gains a major boost from advancing a single level indicates a problem in game design.

[Angelus_dead]

you guys are doing a good job of making a s&b build still have nice dps.
Hello, this capstone gives more benefit to TWF paladins than any other build.

Effects which give the same boost to every hit will naturally give more improvement to combat styles that produce the most hits per minute.

[nate007]

way to much to drink. drinking and typing {BAD IDEA}

[hannika]

i'm sure this has been said but i don't want to read 5 pages of forum whiners, i just wanted to say this is nice. i don't even have a pally and don't really plan to make one, but you guys are doing a good job of making a s&b build still have nice dps.

[Ganak]

I feel vindicated for rolling a pure pally recently over the tempting 2 monk, 2 rogue or 2 fighter splashes. Nice!

[hannika]

Hello, this capstone gives more benefit to TWF paladins than any other build.



i'm not saying it doesn't benefit other builds, but it's doing something to help s&b builds that are doing **** dps currently. make it a more viable option, more useful.

[Borror0]

The problem there is that is if the fighter20 capstone is good enough to catch up to the offensive advantage enjoyed by paladins and rangers, it will be unfair to someone with 1-19 levels of fighter. Just like front-loaded classes are bad, back-loaded classes are also poor game design. It's not balanced for a person to be trucking away for 19 levels weak and then BAM, level 20 makes him strong.

That's imbalanced both towards a fighter19/any1 build, and also towards the pure fighters who haven't hit 20 yet.
What he said.

1. Kensai is a little underpowered. Could we get a little more love in that one... like add in a Competance Bonus to Weapon Speed... it seems to me the supreme master with of a weapon should know how to use it with more alacrity than other people. Not a huge boost just about 5 or so % across the levels
Agreed. Fighters are pretty much the worse class in DDO right now. the recent upgrades to paladins officially put them in last place.

Turbine will need to improve Kensai.

2. Pretty Please with Ice Cream and a cherry on top can we make Bow Strength a part of the Point Blank Shot Feat (in addition to Ranger level 1). Not every Archer should be forced to splash a level of Ranger to do this.
Why not just make it a selectable feat?

3. Rogue capstone could use a little love. The Capstone really doesn't seem to be that good over all... especially lined up against something like this. Rogue essentially get nothing at level 20 and have no reason not to MC.
Agreed. Even if it's only preventing the character to die and avoid taking damage for a few seconds, it'd be a neat improvement over the current version.

[Rog]

evil should fear a pally great work! I think for the pally that find a holy avenger they going to have some really sick dps

[Angelus_dead]

Agreed. Fighters are pretty much the worse class in DDO right now. the recent upgrades to paladins officially put them in last place.

Turbine will need to improve Kensai.
I volunteer to kill the D&D Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) class and steal his stuff for fighter bonus feats!


Why not just make it a selectable feat?
Merging it into PBS is stronger than if it cost a separate feat slot, slightly compensating for the overall weakness of ranged combat.

[Aesop]

Why not just make it a selectable feat?


Mostly?... As it stands Rangers actually gain More Feat than Fighters do which is a gross imbalance. Having to add another Feat to a Heavy Feat Required Combat Style inorder for them to even be useful is just more than I really care to see.

In order for a Non Ranger to get the full use of Ranged Combat

PBS
RS
PS
MS
IC
IPS

that's 6 Feat and you don't get any Melee Feat. Any Class other than Fighter Trying to Spec for ranged already are out of Feat by this point in time... so what do you give up? IC... not likely. Incorporating it into the PBS Feat (which is borderline useless in the game as it stand due to the range on it) would allow Rangers to still have all their toys and other people who spec for Ranged to not be gimped out.

Aesop

[Aesop]

I volunteer to kill the D&D Warblade class and steal his stuff for fighter bonus feats!


I'll hold him down and supply the rusty spoon

Aesop

[Borror0]

i'm not saying it doesn't benefit other builds, but it's doing something to help s&b builds that are doing **** dps currently.
Not. It's not. It's going to benefit TWF mostly, then either of S&B or THF depending of if the d6's apply on glancing blows and if the proc rate will be enough to offset THF's slower attack rate (assuming that there is no additional animation at BAB 20 or a fix that changes the latter).

[moorewr]

The rangers should get dual wielding bows. Now that would rock. :D

*ranger takes enhancement.. goes to try it the first time..*

MY GOD MY ARMS! :eek::eek:

[bobbryan2]

Not. It's not. It's going to benefit TWF mostly, then either of S&B or THF depending of if the d6's apply on glancing blows and if the proc rate will be enough to offset THF's slower attack rate (assuming that there is no additional animation at BAB 20 or a fix that changes the latter).

Pretty much all the paladin buffs are benefitting TWF like crazy. There's becoming less and less of a reason to even consider THF and S&B on a paladin.

Knights of the chalice = +4d6 to each hand
This capstone = +4d6 to each hand
Divine Might = +damage to each hand
Easily castable holy swords = 2d6 to each hand

Seriously... THF need to be getting at least 50% bonus from all these things, and make it 3d6 on 2Handed weapons

[Tanka]

Pretty much all the paladin buffs are benefitting TWF like crazy. There's becoming less and less of a reason to even consider THF and S&B on a paladin.

Knights of the chalice = +4d6 to each hand
This capstone = +4d6 to each hand
Divine Might = +damage to each hand
Easily castable holy swords = 2d6 to each hand

Seriously... THF need to be getting at least 50% bonus from all these things, and make it 3d6 on 2Handed weapons
Don't forget Smites of any kind apply to both hands if you time it right.

[Angelus_dead]

Don't forget Smites of any kind apply to both hands if you time it right.
And once you're level 15 with GTWF it's automatically always timed right. And that goes for Divine Sacrifice too.

PS. The very first question in the QA Lodge thread was on that subject (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1773423#post1773423).

[query]

Now, DO knock our socks off on that Alclarity Fighter capstone, but any chance telling us WHEN we'll see (the paladins') holy weapons (and assuming here they will be more than just "swords?")

[maddmatt70]

I think you're overreacting quite a bit here. I just rolled a 14 pally /1 monk (not capped yet) and frankly, at lvl 15 I bit the bullet and went monk even though I knew pally capstone was coming soon.

BUT I KNEW IT WAS COMING. I DID NOT know it would be good, or if it would suck. All I knew is it was coming. Frankly, 4d6 on some mobs is really nice, granted, but does it REALLY gimp you over that 4-8 AC and evasion and TWO feats you got for going 2 monk?

I highly doubt it. If it even leaves you behind at all, it's a negligible amount. Now I agree that respecs need to be offered. But threatening to quit over your own decision to take advantage of multiclassing that shouldnt even BE ALLOWED in real PnP, and then crying fowl about not following PnP rules because it doesn't make you (self-perceived anyway) the best, is a bit silly, don't you think?

I wish I could go 20 pally now too, but 18 pally will be 90% of the damage, and a bunch of other extras from the monk levels. Let's try to keep some perspective here.

In pnp you take two level of monk and then go 18 levels of paladin - people do it all the time. I did not for sure know a capstone was coming when I built my paladin/monk which was at the end of last mod/the beginning of this mod as a matter of fact, but irregardless of that doesn't it start to bother people how much less and less this resembles dnd.
Think about it:
1. There is an enhancment system to make this more mmo friendly which isn't in dnd. This enhancement system has made ddo more difficult to balance and from what I can tell has hurt the game more rather then made it better with specific issues such as critical rage II, caster +40% to their damage, and clerics +40% to their healing leading to significant unblance.

2. prestige enhancements instead of prestige classes with level breakdowns of 6, 12, and 18. Why isn't the prestige enhancements something like 6, 11, 16. The vast majority of prestige classes are available in dungeons and dragons to 6th level characters and are 10 levels in length. So why the heck does the makers of ddo think that their system is better then the builders of dnd's multiple editions, thousands of hours of play testing and several volumes of literature.

3. Capstone enhancements. They don't exist in pnp so why do we need them in ddo? They are virtually untested and arbitrarily made.

I have been a fanboi of ddo on these forums and in game. All the suggestions I have made have been to try to improve the quality of ddo; however, I am getting increasingly frustrated with ddo as it more and more over time departs from its backdrop of pnp.

[Junts]

This capstone is the best justification for a respec yet.. Well tempest 3 is pretty good justification for all those 3+ level splash chars. So where is the respec option - I mean really...

I know dps is the only thing that matters to you, but there are still a lot of reasons and hard decisions in splashing paladin: ac builds, evasion, umd, intimidate, etc.


This is a huge bonus, but so is 2 rogue or 2 monk or 2 fighter for most pally builds.

If the paladin capstone weren't this good, no one would go to 20pal, instead of 18.



the goal of the capstone has to be to make you think about it

[moorewr]

I have been a fanboi of ddo on these forums and in game. All the suggestions I have made have been to try to improve the quality of ddo; however, I am getting increasingly frustrated with ddo as it more and more over time departs from its backdrop of pnp.

Yes. Less and less reference seems to be made to "the source" as time goes by.

You could have hewed closer to DnD Prestige Classes easily by building your pre-reqs like they are in the real rules. Those are never class levels, but rather spell levels, skills, BAB, etc.

Capstones seem to be made from whole cloth. I don't get why they exist. In fact, most of the enhancement system bears faint resemblance to pen and paper.

[muffinlad]

The capstone is fine. As with the others, it would not make me opt out of two levels of Monk or Rogue.

Evasion is too important in this game.

I would suggest a capstone for a level 20 Pali that was called "The Gods Plan"

(Your characters death or injury was not in The Gods Plan. Any time you succeed on a reflex save for half damage, you take none. This works regardless of armor type worn) would be worth going 19 levels and taking a beating until you become a heroic demi-god.

muffinsmiter

[moorewr]

I have an interesting idea for an enterprising DM - run a PnP campaign using all of Turbine's house rules. Let me know how it goes. :)

[GeneralDiomedes]

Man, with all these DPS improvements coming down the pipe, they're going to have to increase mob HP to catch up!

/ducks

[Borror0]

Capstone enhancements. They don't exist in pnp so why do we need them in ddo?
It's been explained to you, but you refuse the answer even though it is the correct one.

It's been created to make going pure worthwhile.

[DoctorWhofan]

YES!!!!


Pure Pallys FTW!!!! FINALLY!!!!! Yes, my gimpy Level 16 28pt pure pally, Sousake, you have been through trials worthy of PnP-finally you shall be uberized!


/does a happy dance!!

[Borror0]

I have an interesting idea for an enterprising DM - run a PnP campaign using all of Turbine's house rules. Let me know how it goes. :)
They made some obvious mess ups, mostly loot related ones, but capstones, PrEs and the enhancement system aren't part of them.

[DoctorWhofan]

I have an interesting idea for an enterprising DM - run a PnP campaign using all of Turbine's house rules. Let me know how it goes. :)

I'd do it. I need a group though...:(

[muffinlad]

They made some obvious mess ups, mostly loot related ones, but capstones, PrEs and the enhancement system aren't part of them.

I give a hearty /agree. With an huzzah, and a spin on a table.

muffincapper

[Tanka]

Eladrin, question I'm not sure has been thought out here:

If the weapon is doing Good damage, does that + Silver bypass, say, Suulomades's DR? Or must the weapon still be Silver/Holy to bypass?

[bobbryan2]

Eladrin, question I'm not sure has been thought out here:

If the weapon is doing Good damage, does that + Silver bypass, say, Suulomades's DR? Or must the weapon still be Silver/Holy to bypass?

He said it does not make the weapon good aligned.

[Angelus_dead]

If the weapon is doing Good damage, does that + Silver bypass, say, Suulomades's DR?
It does not, as explicitly stated.

[Angelus_dead]

I have an interesting idea for an enterprising DM - run a PnP campaign using all of Turbine's house rules. Let me know how it goes. :)
The single biggest problem in DDO is actually inter-party loot sharing, which cannot occur if that DM only runs one party of players.

[Tanka]

It does not, as explicitly stated.
Reading comprehension FTW.

[Angelus_dead]

It's been explained to you, but you refuse the answer even though it is the correct one.
It's been created to make going pure worthwhile.
The lack of capstones is broadly considered a bug in the D&D rules, and new classes added after PHB try to have capstones to them.

Note, however, that the more important reason to support them is so that it's helpful to take the 20th level specifically, not levels1-19 in general. They desire for every level to be valuable... the capstone just happens to be the final one.

[sephiroth1084]

First, THANK YOU ELADRIN! Now I can sit down and start planning my re-working of my current paladin/fighter for Mod 9, though, this is going to require some figuring out. Cool ability, but is it worth losing intimidate and a couple feats?

As for my thoughts on the ability...I think this should make a paladin's attacks count as good-aligned for the purpose of bypassing DR. Honestly, I'd prefer +1d6 Holy and +1d6 Light, if this counted as being good-aligned. Not even, necessarily, because it'd be stronger (it would be in some cases, but weaker in most others), but for the flavor. A level 20 paladin should be a paragon of goodness and justice, and should radiate holiness, which I don't feel the 2d6 holy without counting as good quite conveys or captures. If a paladin hits soemthing evil, it should know that it just got smacked by some serious righteousness!

C'mon everyone! People are making a fuss about their multiclassed characters being gimped due to the capstones being released. That is so ridiculous. A 2 level splash of rogue nets you +1d6+3 damage, 5 20-second boosts of melee alacrity, UMD, Intimidate, better skills in other areas, Evasion and +1 Dex. 2 levels in fighter nets you 2 feats, +1 Str, the same alacrity boost, and both Intimidate and Jump as class skills. Monk gets you Evasion, Wis to AC, 2 feats, +1 Wis, some (somewhat) useful Ki abilities and stances, and a boost to your saving throws. While this nets you an extra 7 average damage against most monsters, and 14 against most endgame monsters.

Sure, this is a big leap, but think about who gets it. How many pure paladins are going to be going TWF? A human paladin gets 8 feats by level 20. That's not a whole lot of room for flexibility, and the pure paladin will have pretty awful AC while TWF, not to mention the difficulty inherent in meeting the requirements for the whole TWF feat chain. So, sure, if you tank your Str and do very little damage until around level 6, and then okay damage increasing slightly every 4 levels or so going up (DM), you will eventually get rewarded at level 20 with a nice ability.

The ability is very nice, and is what a capstone should be: something that builds upon the themes of the class and is strong enough to really make one consider whether or not to multiclass, while not obviating the usefulness of doing so. For some characters, multiclassing will still be the way to go, while for others, they will no longer feel like going pure paladin is the same as wearing a "GIMP" sign on your back.

The rogue and cleric capstone could definitely use some more oomph, while the monk one could probably do for some adrenaline-injection as well, but seems like it will require experience using the capstone in order to really make a judgement call on it.

[Bronko]

Wow, this is impressive. Especially for the cost in APs.

You are seriously making me reconsider rerolling my main as a pure class with this one.

[dopey69]

i never played pnp always been a gamer so never even heard of capstones :( till it was way too late for some of mine:( I would hope with such a big change ddo would give mixed players a one time offer to respec theirs for free. as i have like all of you way way way too much time invested to re roll all my 32"s . like some of you say it is still worth some of the cross breeds it would still be nice to no we would have a respec option available if wanted

[Aesop]

Ya know with the capstones as they are I hope DDO plans to go to more than level 20 at some point

Aesop

[BlackSteel]

The ability is very nice, and is what a capstone should be: something that builds upon the themes of the class and is strong enough to really make one consider whether or not to multiclass, while not obviating the usefulness of doing so. For some characters, multiclassing will still be the way to go, while for others, they will no longer feel like going pure paladin is the same as wearing a "GIMP" sign on your back.



well said

[sephiroth1084]

Only because it really irritates the English tutor part of me...


irregardless .

No such word. You may use either 'regardless' or 'irrespective'.

[Aesop]

Only because it really irritates the English tutor part of me...



No such word. You may use either 'regardless' or 'irrespective'.

I hate that one too... and Conversating


as in "I was Conversating with him about the upcoming union meeting"

annoys the hell out of me

Aesop

[bobbryan2]

Sure, this is a big leap, but think about who gets it. How many pure paladins are going to be going TWF?

The smart ones?

[geoffhanna]

wow :eek:

[Deathseeker]

I hate that one too... and Conversating


as in "I was Conversating with him about the upcoming union meeting"

annoys the hell out of me

Aesop


You are all conversating about a topic that is not part of this thread, irregardless of whether its a good point or not. Its all a mute point when discussed here...

(yes, that last one was intentional...)

[Angelus_dead]

I volunteer to kill the D&D Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) class and steal his stuff for fighter bonus feats!
Well, I did it, but it didn't come out that great:
TOB for DDO (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2019682)

[Balkas]

I hate that one too... and Conversating


as in "I was Conversating with him about the upcoming union meeting"

annoys the hell out of me

Aesop

I hate the words "Commentator" and "Commentating".

What's wrong with being a "Commenter"?

And uh... whee Pally capstone.

[Aesop]

Well, I did it, but it didn't come out that great:
TOB for DDO (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2019682)

I like the idea. Specifics I'm definately not too sure on though.

Aesop

[moorewr]

The lack of capstones is broadly considered a bug in the D&D rules, and new classes added after PHB try to have capstones to them.

I learned something new today.. at least I think I did. Can you point me to a 3.5 class or classes that you would describe as having the equivalent of a capstone?

[Aesop]

I learned something new today.. at least I think I did. Can you point me to a 3.5 class or classes that you would describe as having the equivalent of a capstone?

Ya know of the Core I'd say Monk Barb and Druid have something in the way of a Capstone Ability

Barb: Mighty Rage

Monk: Perfect Self

Druid: Huge Elemental Windshape


but that's really just opinion

Aesop

[Angelus_dead]

I learned something new today.. at least I think I did. Can you point me to a 3.5 class or classes that you would describe as having the equivalent of a capstone?
PHB monk is the first one. Many PRCs have capstones.
In 3.5 Complete books I see capstones for Ninja, Scout, Spellthief, Warlock, and Warmage. That's 83% of the expansion base classes I skimmed.

One could discuss the definition of capstone in a few of those cases, though: sometimes it's a unique ability not really seen elsewhere in the class, other times it's simply yet another feature which happens to be at level 20. Both can be called a capstone, although Eladrin's use has tended more towards the former.

In addition, articles on the wizards.com website have provided dead-level fillers and capstones for the PHB base classes.

[Tanka]

Most of the standard classes outside of the PHB gain additional abilities or extra uses of abilities from that class.

[Venar]

Well, people need to remember the big downside to capstone. You get them at level 20. And a lot of gaming happens before that.

Take Weapon of Good vs Evasion.

You get to play with WoG at lvl 20.
You can play with you multiclass evasion as soon as you get it (as low as lvl 2).

My point is, you dont fix a class by giving it a gift at lvl 20. IMO.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Hmmm.

I will take it on my pures, but wont miss it on my multiclasses.

My Opinion only but please consider the following points:


It will be a bonus that does not multiply on crits. So a nice boost to pure paladins for now* but not overwhelming.** Remember that these mobs (undead and evil outsiders) are around alot now, but they are not everywhere.*** And the non-good aspect has a nice flavour of 'If you are not against evil, then you can feel my wrath too'
2 Rogue levels give you. Max UMD/Intimidate, Evasion, +1d6+3 sneak attack, Rogue Haste I boost 5/day, +1 Dex enhancement.
2 Monk levels give you Evasion, Wis to AC, +1 Wis enhancement, 2 Feats, A useful skill list, an ability to achieve a super AC.
2 Fighter levels give you: Max intimidate, +1 Strength enhancement, +2 feats, Fighter haste boost I 5/day
Capstones if too powerful would make pure classes more desirable, breaking one of the biggest perks of this game, the unique multiclass options. Instead of *ding you are now a 5th level paladin* that WOW and others do, this system is *ding you have advanced a level, go to a trainer and see which class will be to your liking*.


* Epic levels ARE coming so every 2 splash multiclass player will conceivably be able to have this and every other capstone thought up, at the next level increase (~12 months from Mod 9 probably). Epic feats, class abilities and especially EPIC ITEMS/REWARDS fill me with more dread than slightly over/underpowered capstones.

** Wounding and WoP and vorpals (for non resistant mobs) will not change. Devs are not that stupid. But enemy AI can change and if something like mass restoration/mass heal/mass deathward become a common mob tactic DPS will become a more prevalent necessity. BUT Wounding and WoP will still be viable with appropriate tactics and vorpal may still be useful if the resistance can be dispelled (Mordenkainen's Disjunction anyone?)

*** This capstone will not do anything vs some mobs (only a few so far) and only be half useful vs abberations, constructs, animals, dragons, dwarves, humans, elves, halflings, goblinoids, oozes, monstrous humanoids, vermin, reptilians, giants, magical beasts, elementals and anything else I missed.

[nbhs275]

Oh my.. That is ridiculous and seems overpowering.. 4d6 damage against in all probability a high % of the population in the next mod. I am trying to measure that against evasion and certain build types. I would say unless you are a high ac build there is no reason to go multi-class in my opinion. Another example of where multi-classed builds get killed. A more appropriate capstone would be 1d6 against non good mobs and 1d6 more light damage against evil outsider/undead. My pally with 2 monk splash that is a high dps/moderate ac build just got gimped.

well thats the kind of thing you need to weigh out. What is better, wisdom to AC, evasion, 2 feats, and the other minor monk benefits, or 2d6 extra damage against evil enemies, and an additional 2d6 vs evil outsiders and evil undead?

All told, i think the knights of the chalice will be prevailent, though the undead hunters with the extra light damage, could probably solo sorjek in SoS. Though again, evasion in there prevents and mitigates so much damage in there, its hard to say which is a larger benefit.

[query]

why don't the pure pallies simply splash a class or two upon epic as well?


Hmmm.

I will take it on my pures, but wont miss it on my multiclasses.

My Opinion only but please consider the following points:


It will be a bonus that does not multiply on crits. So a nice boost to pure paladins for now* but not overwhelming.** Remember that these mobs (undead and evil outsiders) are around alot now, but they are not everywhere.*** And the non-good aspect has a nice flavour of 'If you are not against evil, then you can feel my wrath too'
2 Rogue levels give you. Max UMD/Intimidate, Evasion, +1d6+3 sneak attack, Rogue Haste I boost 5/day, +1 Dex enhancement.
2 Monk levels give you Evasion, Wis to AC, +1 Wis enhancement, 2 Feats, A useful skill list, an ability to achieve a super AC.
2 Fighter levels give you: Max intimidate, +1 Strength enhancement, +2 feats, Fighter haste boost I 5/day
Capstones if too powerful would make pure classes more desirable, breaking one of the biggest perks of this game, the unique multiclass options. Instead of *ding you are now a 5th level paladin* that WOW and others do, this system is *ding you have advanced a level, go to a trainer and see which class will be to your liking*.

* Epic levels ARE coming so every 2 splash multiclass player will conceivably be able to have this and every other capstone thought up, at the next level increase (~12 months from Mod 9 probably). Epic feats, class abilities and especially EPIC ITEMS/REWARDS fill me with more dread than slightly over/underpowered capstones.

** Wounding and WoP and vorpals (for non resistant mobs) will not change. Devs are not that stupid. But enemy AI can change and if something like mass restoration/mass heal/mass deathward become a common mob tactic DPS will become a more prevalent necessity. BUT Wounding and WoP will still be viable with appropriate tactics and vorpal may still be useful if the resistance can be dispelled (Mordenkainen's Disjunction anyone?)

*** This capstone will not do anything vs some mobs (only a few so far) and only be half useful vs abberations, constructs, animals, dragons, dwarves, humans, elves, halflings, goblinoids, oozes, monstrous humanoids, vermin, reptilians, giants, magical beasts, elementals and anything else I missed.

[bobbryan2]

why don't the pure pallies simply splash a class or two upon epic as well?

Welll.. that's gonna be a big question for the dev team to answer upon implementing epic levels.

[Yaga_Nub]

Kensai3 is a damage-boosting passive enhancement requiring many levels of a melee class.
Weapon of Good is a damage-boosting passive enhancement requiring many levels of a melee class.

Their cost and build availability is not identical, but it's close enough for comparisons to be useful. It's also very useful to enumerate the paladin capstone as objective DPS, so it can be compared against the benefit from other levels; either what you get by going 0-2 in fighter, rogue, monk, or ranger, as well as what you gain from pal18-19 or pal16-17.

Anytime a class gains a major boost from advancing a single level indicates a problem in game design.

You're right A_D but there is already enough bad design in PnP that we can overlook a little bit more added design flaws as long as they don't break the game.

Are you trying to imply that this capstone will break the game?

[Yaga_Nub]

.....

I have been a fanboi of ddo on these forums and in game. All the suggestions I have made have been to try to improve the quality of ddo; however, I am getting increasingly frustrated with ddo as it more and more over time departs from its backdrop of pnp.

I haven't been a part of a PnP campaign that didn't eventually start adding house rules. House rules show creativity and allow for the group to play the way they all agree/want to play. Does it help at all to just think of all these things that you have listed in your post as house rules?

[Yaga_Nub]

Well, people need to remember the big downside to capstone. You get them at level 20. And a lot of gaming happens before that.

Take Weapon of Good vs Evasion.

You get to play with WoG at lvl 20.
You can play with you multiclass evasion as soon as you get it (as low as lvl 2).

My point is, you dont fix a class by giving it a gift at lvl 20. IMO.

The capstone isn't meant to be a fix is it?

[SteeleTrueheart]

why don't the pure pallies simply splash a class or two upon epic as well?

Nothing. But Evasion from low levels would be more useful for you if you are building a character that can use it rather than waiting until level 22 to obtain it just so you can have a situational +4d6 ability at level 20 for the next 6-12 months.

In PnP quite a few feats have class abilities as prereqs. I will not be suprised if DDO converts this to Class level requirements. Also If you are a pure class at epic levels then you will be able to take epic class enhancements since the devs usually have a prereq of e.g Paladin Level 21.

In the Epic Level Handbook you also get bonus feats in nearly all classes at certain levels, which can be used for specific epic class feats (similar to what fighters have now in fighter bonus feats) So for e.g. the quicker you get to Barb 24 or Paladin 23 the more epic feats you have access to.

[Junts]

By the way, I'd like to direct the people posting in this thread to the Fist of Raziel progression, then note that I proposed (about a month ago) modifying Fist of Raziel into the paladin capstone by granting +2d6 holy damage and good dr beating. I think it is interesting that it was clearly decided that 2d6 more vs evil outsiders and undead was actually less good than getting dr/good on all weapons, as this capstone will require special coding to not do that.


This is actually a pretty reasonable ability for a high-level paladin, and it does not surprise me that one of the abilities of Fist of Raziel is coming available.

I am not trying to take credit for the idea, by the way; only to point out that it was a pretty logical extention of an important prestige class that was not turning into a prestige enhancement line, as apparently one other person had thought of it already.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=167598

I also think its interesting that only one person even responded to my idea, when a few other threads were discussing paladin capstones as well; the 2d6 version wasn't even worth commentary, but the 4d6 version is a huge huge overpowered/departure from pnp deal?

It's a very reasonable translation of the best ability of a popular offensive prestige class, that frankly has a lot more business in ddo than either knight of the chalice or hunter of the dead; fist of raziel is -the- definitive offensive paladin prestige class, and the direct partner/opposite of the defender of sealtiel.

[query]

they have plans for Holy Sword and it may impart this in the high end....

But since zippo has been posted on any official preview on the HS, this could be way off...


By the way, I'd like to direct the people posting in this thread to the Fist of Raziel progression, then note that I proposed (about a month ago) modifying Fist of Raziel into the paladin capstone by granting +2d6 holy damage and good dr beating. I think it is interesting that it was clearly decided that 2d6 more vs evil outsiders and undead was actually less good than getting dr/good on all weapons, as this capstone will require special coding to not do that.


This is actually a pretty reasonable ability for a high-level paladin, and it does not surprise me that one of the abilities of Fist of Raziel is coming available.

I am not trying to take credit for the idea, by the way; only to point out that it was a pretty logical extention of an important prestige class that was not turning into a prestige enhancement line, as apparently one other person had thought of it already.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=167598

I also think its interesting that only one person even responded to my idea, when a few other threads were discussing paladin capstones as well; the 2d6 version wasn't even worth commentary, but the 4d6 version is a huge huge overpowered/departure from pnp deal?

It's a very reasonable translation of the best ability of a popular offensive prestige class, that frankly has a lot more business in ddo than either knight of the chalice or hunter of the dead; fist of raziel is -the- definitive offensive paladin prestige class, and the direct partner/opposite of the defender of sealtiel.

[Angelus_dead]

I think it is interesting that it was clearly decided that 2d6 more vs evil outsiders and undead was actually less good than getting dr/good on all weapons, as this capstone will require special coding to not do that.
Backwards.

The DDO software clearly has no capability to dynamically change what DR a weapon beats according to the abilities of the wielder. The reason the paladin capstone doesn't beat DR/Good is because that was easier to program.

[Junts]

they have plans for Holy Sword and it may impart this in the high end....

But since zippo has been posted on any official preview on the HS, this could be way off...

It could also be that they decided that given every major endgame weapon is made with holy on it - holy swords, all good greensteel combos with tier1pos, presumably the avenger, that giving dr/good was deemed to be irrelevant for most paladins. However, since the ability specifically does not grant that advantage, it is my feeling they felt it was a very good bonus.

[Junts]

Backwards.

The DDO software clearly has no capability to dynamically change what DR a weapon beats according to the abilities of the wielder. The reason the paladin capstone doesn't beat DR/Good is because that was easier to program.


I admit I disagree with you there; the software tracks, in the expanded details of inventory, all the drs your attack beats along with that other information; its clearly referencing the table keeping track, and it would be easy to add a temporary dr effect I'm guessing; the fact that they haven't before is not necessarily an indication.

giving dr/good to weapons would be a huge advantage, since so many dr-bearing mobs are only dr/good (only a lot of named stuff has both) - having dr/good would let, for example, all paladin wounders break dr more easily, etc - a potent advantage.

I used to use a vorpal of pure good, and had nearly forgotten how many renders/reavers/orthons/devils have only good dr when I upgraded to a higher plus without the pure good effect; similarly, wounding of pg weapons are awesome for finesse types.

[Desteria]

Paladins have received a few boosts to their damage output against their traditional foes through the Hunter of the Dead and Knight of the Chalice prestige enhancement lines, and their first capstone continues to emphasize the good fight against darkness.

Paladin Weapons of Good
Prereq: Level 20 Paladin
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Any weapon you wield deal 2d6 additional holy damage against non-good opponents and 2d6 additional light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders.

While this enhancement does not make your weapon "good" aligned like the Pure Good, Holy, or Holy Burst weapon enchantments, it brings an extra bit of punch to a Paladin, especially when they're fighting evil outsiders. The extra dice of damage from Weapons of Good stack with other weapon enchantments, so even your common Holy Sword can become a dangerous weapon unless you're running through a quest like Purge the Heretics.

Edit:
Insert the standard "this is a preview, still subject to change, in testing, etc." disclaimer.

OMG!!!!!

I really cant wait for my pally to have this + knight of the chalace + TWF +DS +DM +zeal, who wants rangers for shroud speed runs any more I want this guy!!!!!!!!

It's great it really does imo give the 2 monk/rouoge splash a run for it;s money...

[maddmatt70]

The lack of capstones is broadly considered a bug in the D&D rules, and new classes added after PHB try to have capstones to them.

Note, however, that the more important reason to support them is so that it's helpful to take the 20th level specifically, not levels1-19 in general. They desire for every level to be valuable... the capstone just happens to be the final one.

Where do the makers of D&D say that the lack of capstones is a bug in the D&D rules... This sounds made up.

To Borro - they should follow the rules of D&D not create their own rule set. That is far more important than perserving purity..

[maddmatt70]

PHB monk is the first one. Many PRCs have capstones.
In 3.5 Complete books I see capstones for Ninja, Scout, Spellthief, Warlock, and Warmage. That's 83% of the expansion base classes I skimmed.

One could discuss the definition of capstone in a few of those cases, though: sometimes it's a unique ability not really seen elsewhere in the class, other times it's simply yet another feature which happens to be at level 20. Both can be called a capstone, although Eladrin's use has tended more towards the former.

In addition, articles on the wizards.com website have provided dead-level fillers and capstones for the PHB base classes.

Again there is no capstone for the warmage and countless others.. This is a false statement. There is a ton of base classes which get no level 20 bonus in the later books of 3.5 and there is no discussion of a 'capstone movement'. DDO should follow the rules...

[Borror0]

To Borro - they should follow the rules of D&D not create their own rule set. That is far more important than perserving purity..
Oh, ya. Purposely making a mistake is a good idea. At least that way you can say it is working as intended.:rolleyes:

[Griphon]

Backwards.

The DDO software clearly has no capability to dynamically change what DR a weapon beats according to the abilities of the wielder. The reason the paladin capstone doesn't beat DR/Good is because that was easier to program.

Uh...
Isn't that the same thing as what the Monk's ability to bypass DR that are weak to Adamantine and Law?

If so.. Then it'd seem the game is capable of it.

[Borror0]

Uh...
Isn't that the same thing as what the Monk's ability to bypass DR that are weak to Adamantine and Law?

If so.. Then it'd seem the game is capable of it.
It might be very different. In the monk's case, it only applies to his fist (ie like handwraps do) whereas Weapon of Good would have to affect all weapons.

In the end, the coding might be totally different.

[Desteria]

It might be very different. In the monk's case, it only applies to his fist (ie like handwraps do) whereas Weapon of Good would have to affect all weapons.

In the end, the coding might be totally different.

or maby it was done on pourpse to make it a little harder to stack as many damage adding effetc easly, you still nee dto weild a base weapon that bypasses DR and that might mean useign transmutign in sted of holy or what ever.

[JayDubya]

After reading this, I burned one of my empty slots to create a new TWF dwarf paladin.

[sephiroth1084]

Where do the makers of D&D say that the lack of capstones is a bug in the D&D rules... This sounds made up.



http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a

If you read that page on the WotC D&D website, the developer mentions classes like the barbarian and monk being some of the best designed because they don't have dead levels and have a capstone ability (don't recall whether he uses the word 'capstone', but he does specify something like 'level 20 crowning ability'), and mentions that the rogue is one of the worst constructed classes, because it has a lot of dead levels and no capstone.

If you look at the classes available in all the 3.5 books, 17 out of about 29 base classes (excluding the PHB) have capstone-like abilities, where some are new or unique, and some are simply an increase to an existing ability (more significant usually than simply gaining +1 smite evil per day). Of the ones that do not, nearly all of them are casting classes, which the developers have stated as being treated differently (new spells per day/known are kind of like getting new abilities, according to the developers). The following classes all have capstone abilities: ninja, scout, spellthief, warmage, favored soul, spirit shaman, divine mind, soulknife, wilder, dread necromancer, beguiler, dragon shaman, duskblade, knight, crusader, swordsage, warblade.

I didn't bother looking at all the prestige classes (since there is around 100 of them), but I recall that nearly every PrC has a final ability (whether at level 3, 5, 7 or 10 of the class), to make taking 10 levels, rather than just 9 or 8 or 7, of the PrC worthwhile. In fact, there are some which do not have any new ability at level 9, or 8 and 9, but throw a juicy one in at 10 in order to draw people past taking those 1 or 2 crappy levels.

On top of all of that, if you look at the way many people build their characters, and the way people here have been discussing them, there are some classes for which there is no decision whether or not to multiclass--you just DO--because there isn't any compelling reason to stay in the class. That is a design flaw.

[Aeneas]

We all knew multiclassing was a risk.


I personally have rerolled 3 capped toons because as the cap went up or the rules changed he/she became obsolete. I'm sure they won't be the last rerolls i make. Just gotta suck it up and keep on chuggin.


That said, this capstone looks really nice, and i'm glad you've given paladins a half decent reason not to say "I am batman."

[Angelus_dead]

I personally have rerolled 3 capped toons because as the cap went up or the rules changed he/she became obsolete. I'm sure they won't be the last rerolls i make. Just gotta suck it up and keep on chuggin.
Pro Tip:
If a game designer has to tell his customers to "suck it up", he's doing it wrong.

[DoctorWhofan]

Pro Tip:
If a game designer has to tell his customers to "suck it up", he's doing it wrong.

I dunno, pure pallys were told suck it up from the get go. Not anymore! I think the lesson here is pateince is a virtue.

[Borror0]

I dunno, pure pallys were told suck it up from the get go.
No, they weren't. For that, they would have had to acknowledge their existence.

Okay, seriously now, Eladrin tried to bring paladins back in balance. We can say that he did it slower than we'd want, but he didn't tell us to 'suck it up'.

[Aspenor]

No, they weren't. For that, they would have had to acknowledge their existence.

Okay, seriously now, Eladrin tried to bring paladins back in balance. We can say that he did it slower than we'd want, but he didn't tell us to 'suck it up'.

Yeah I thought he said "Don't die."

[Borror0]

Yeah I thought he said "Don't die."
I think people have forgotten what the post in question (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1400068#post1400068) was.

It was a long reply to the question "But what's the motivation of giving -10 stats to everyone that dies?" that he started by saying "Don't die." Honestly, that's quite the motivation. He wanted us to avoid death, to make death more painful to us, so he answered the question.

It's not like he told us to suck it up.

[Aspenor]

I think people have forgotten what the post in question (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1400068#post1400068) was.

It was a long reply to the question "But what's the motivation of giving -10 stats to everyone that dies?" that he started by saying "Don't die." Honestly, that's quite the motivation. He wanted us to avoid death, to make death more painful to us, so he answered the question.

It's not like he told us to suck it up.

i know...i was just being silly.

[Borror0]

i know...i was just being silly.
Most people are serious about it when they bring it up.

[bobbryan2]

Most people are serious about it when they bring it up.

It's ok, you can admit it. Canada just doesn't have humor.

[Borror0]

It's ok, you can admit it. Canada just doesn't have humor.
Why would they, when they got me?

[Angelus_dead]

A Tale of Two Builds- DPS by level

Suppose a player wants to make a new paladin, and he faces a single decision: splash rogue or not. He asks which choice will give him more DPS, but your answer is complicated and depends on level:

DPS Superiority by Level
rog1 > pal1
rog1/pal1 > pal2
rog1/pal2 > pal3
rog1/pal3 > pal4
rog1/pal4 > pal5
rog1/pal5 > pal6
rog1/pal6 > pal7
rog1/pal7 > pal8
rog1/pal8 > pal9
rog1/pal9 > pal10
rog1/pal10 > pal11
rog1/pal11 > pal12
rog1/pal12 > pal13
pal14 > rog1/pal13
rog1/pal14 > pal15
rog1/pal15 > pal16
rog1/pal16 > pal17
rog1/pal17 > pal18
rog1/pal18 > pal19
pal20 > rog1/pal19

So if he takes the rogue level, his DPS is superior for 18 out of 20 character levels... but it's notably inferior on the last level, which is the level he'll be at longer than any of the others.


Questions Raised
1. Is it good for gameplay if a player has to make a choice that's inferior all through leveling, and then pays off only when leveling is done?

2. Is it good for gameplay or verisimilitude if a choice that's superior through most of your career suddenly and drastically turns worse at the end?

3. What will happen if the level cap ever goes up past 20? Will rog1/pal20 become superior to pal21, and will it be a good thing for the advantage of a pure paladin to be overridden like that? (Remember that he earned it by advancing through 18 levels of lesser DPS)

[Aeneas]

Pro Tip:
If a game designer has to tell his customers to "suck it up", he's doing it wrong.

I'd prefer a changing game to a complete and perfect game that i completely play through and figure out in a week. The only reason any of us are still playing is that the game has changed so dynamically since launch. It's easy to be critical when you stand on the feeling of wasted time. Try viewing the past 3 years as a business decision and it's hard not to call the devs geniuses. I know they sucked me in and have kept me busy.

[Solmage]

You beat me. Darn. :mad:

I'm beginning to consider whether I wouldn't be better off getting rid of evasion. This IS rather nice. I like this enhancement because it gives me a real choice, namely to maximize my DPS or maximizing my staying power (evasion) and tanking (intimidate as a class skill), together with improved self healing & raise dead (UMD class skill)

Is it too powerful? Hard to tell without seeing the new prestige enhancements + capstones in action.

[maddmatt70]

I'd prefer a changing game to a complete and perfect game that i completely play through and figure out in a week. The only reason any of us are still playing is that the game has changed so dynamically since launch. It's easy to be critical when you stand on the feeling of wasted time. Try viewing the past 3 years as a business decision and it's hard not to call the devs geniuses. I know they sucked me in and have kept me busy.

I don't think ddo is in the top 20 of mmos in terms of population despite having as a foundation (D&D) the basis for all mmos which has a very strong niche crowd.

[Angelus_dead]

I'd prefer a changing game to a complete and perfect game that i completely play through and figure out in a week. The only reason any of us are still playing is that the game has changed so dynamically since launch.
That's why games need to allow respecs...

[Mhykke]

Pro Tip:
If a game designer has to tell his customers to "suck it up", he's doing it wrong.

Just to expand, if any business has to tell its customers to "suck it up", it is doing it wrong.

[Angelus_dead]

Just to expand, if any business has to tell its customers to "suck it up", it is doing it wrong.
Well... that becomes more vague if a business isn't in the entertainment category.

A dentist or automotive repairman can be more justified to say "I know you won't like this, but it's for the sake of health or safety". Someone in the entertainment field doesn't have the excuse of prioritizing other goals above having fun, because "fun" is really the heart of what he's selling.

[EinarMal]

A Tale of Two Builds- DPS by level

Suppose a player wants to make a new paladin, and he faces a single decision: splash rogue or not. He asks which choice will give him more DPS, but your answer is complicated and depends on level:

DPS Superiority by Level
rog1 > pal1
rog1/pal1 > pal2
rog1/pal2 > pal3
rog1/pal3 > pal4
rog1/pal4 > pal5
rog1/pal5 > pal6
rog1/pal6 > pal7
rog1/pal7 > pal8
rog1/pal8 > pal9
rog1/pal9 > pal10
rog1/pal10 > pal11
rog1/pal11 > pal12
rog1/pal12 > pal13
pal14 > rog1/pal13
rog1/pal14 > pal15
rog1/pal15 > pal16
rog1/pal16 > pal17
rog1/pal17 > pal18
rog1/pal18 > pal19
pal20 > rog1/pal19

So if he takes the rogue level, his DPS is superior for 18 out of 20 character levels... but it's notably inferior on the last level, which is the level he'll be at longer than any of the others.


Questions Raised
1. Is it good for gameplay if a player has to make a choice that's inferior all through leveling, and then pays off only when leveling is done?

2. Is it good for gameplay or verisimilitude if a choice that's superior through most of your career suddenly and drastically turns worse at the end?

3. What will happen if the level cap ever goes up past 20? Will rog1/pal20 become superior to pal21, and will it be a good thing for the advantage of a pure paladin to be overridden like that? (Remember that he earned it by advancing through 18 levels of lesser DPS)

Yeah well that seems to be the route they are taking on multiple fronts. A fighter is way behind until level 18, when they get Kensai III which catches them up a bit.

They seem to be promoting this wait until level 18 or 20 and you catch up design philosophy that honestly I am not a fan of.

The truth is the way it is set up now, Rangers and some MC combinations will dominate the up close combat until level 14, then Paladins move up a fair bit. Then Fighters kick in around level 18. At level 18 pretty much all deep multi-class builds will be in big trouble.

Or you could just roll a Ranger and pretty much dominate from 6-20.

[Rhymer25]

We all knew multiclassing was a risk.


I personally anticipated a good capstone and did not multiclass on my new TWF pally. I would like to take this opportunity to give a big ROFL to anyone who is now kicking themselves for multiclassing.

I'm a just kiiiidddinggggg!!! hahahaha

Seriously, as pointed out rog and mnk are still good to multiclass but this gives a viable option to not multiclass. I also think it will help those who choose to be a hate tank and take defender of siberys. I now have no idea what Prestige Enhancement line I am going to follow.

Kudos devs!

[Yaga_Nub]

Pro Tip:
If a game designer has to tell his customers to "suck it up", he's doing it wrong.

Don't you have to be a pro first before you can give tips let alone pro tips. ;)

Tell us which MMO you're currently coding on and we'll head over to see if you follow your own tips.

[Yaga_Nub]

A Tale of Two Builds- DPS by level

Suppose a player wants to make a new paladin, and he faces a single decision: splash rogue or not. He asks which choice will give him more DPS, but your answer is complicated and depends on level:

DPS Superiority by Level
rog1 > pal1
rog1/pal1 > pal2
rog1/pal2 > pal3
rog1/pal3 > pal4
rog1/pal4 > pal5
rog1/pal5 > pal6
rog1/pal6 > pal7
rog1/pal7 > pal8
rog1/pal8 > pal9
rog1/pal9 > pal10
rog1/pal10 > pal11
rog1/pal11 > pal12
rog1/pal12 > pal13
pal14 > rog1/pal13
rog1/pal14 > pal15
rog1/pal15 > pal16
rog1/pal16 > pal17
rog1/pal17 > pal18
rog1/pal18 > pal19
pal20 > rog1/pal19

So if he takes the rogue level, his DPS is superior for 18 out of 20 character levels... but it's notably inferior on the last level, which is the level he'll be at longer than any of the others.


Questions Raised
1. Is it good for gameplay if a player has to make a choice that's inferior all through leveling, and then pays off only when leveling is done?

2. Is it good for gameplay or verisimilitude if a choice that's superior through most of your career suddenly and drastically turns worse at the end?

3. What will happen if the level cap ever goes up past 20? Will rog1/pal20 become superior to pal21, and will it be a good thing for the advantage of a pure paladin to be overridden like that? (Remember that he earned it by advancing through 18 levels of lesser DPS)

That's all well and good but there's much more than DPS to this game.

Also I want to see how you came to your conclusions. And you YOU need to provide the numbers to prove you know what you are talking about.

[Angelus_dead]

Don't you have to be a pro first before you can give tips let alone pro tips. ;)

Tell us which MMO you're currently coding on and we'll head over to see if you follow your own tips.
Why would you say that?

[moorewr]

Don't you have to be a pro first before you can give tips let alone pro tips. ;)

That's some industrial grade hand waving right there. :)

[sephiroth1084]

A Tale of Two Builds- DPS by level

Suppose a player wants to make a new paladin, and he faces a single decision: splash rogue or not. He asks which choice will give him more DPS, but your answer is complicated and depends on level:

DPS Superiority by Level
rog1 > pal1
rog1/pal1 > pal2
rog1/pal2 > pal3
rog1/pal3 > pal4
rog1/pal4 > pal5
rog1/pal5 > pal6
rog1/pal6 > pal7
rog1/pal7 > pal8
rog1/pal8 > pal9
rog1/pal9 > pal10
rog1/pal10 > pal11
rog1/pal11 > pal12
rog1/pal12 > pal13
pal14 > rog1/pal13
rog1/pal14 > pal15
rog1/pal15 > pal16
rog1/pal16 > pal17
rog1/pal17 > pal18
rog1/pal18 > pal19
pal20 > rog1/pal19

So if he takes the rogue level, his DPS is superior for 18 out of 20 character levels... but it's notably inferior on the last level, which is the level he'll be at longer than any of the others.


Questions Raised
1. Is it good for gameplay if a player has to make a choice that's inferior all through leveling, and then pays off only when leveling is done?

2. Is it good for gameplay or verisimilitude if a choice that's superior through most of your career suddenly and drastically turns worse at the end?

3. What will happen if the level cap ever goes up past 20? Will rog1/pal20 become superior to pal21, and will it be a good thing for the advantage of a pure paladin to be overridden like that? (Remember that he earned it by advancing through 18 levels of lesser DPS)

This comparison takes into account only one aspect of a character. Sure, the rogue-splash will provide slightly better DPS, but will also provide slightly worse LoH and smites, and will delay the attaining of other paladin abilities until later on. Conversely, the rogue-splashed paladin will have UMD and some better skills than the pure paladin, while having slightly worse DPS at that point.

This back and forth play is true for all classes: multiclassing, for the most part, delivers much more power up front, and slightly diminishing returns further down the line. Splashing 1-4 levels of fighter in a martial build will boost the character a lot early in the game, where having all those feats at once makes a huge difference, while for someone willing to wait, a pure class might gain more in the long run, and will likely be able to take all or most of the feats they wanted/needed anyway by the time they hit 20.

They have added much to the paladin recently that boosts its DPS (DS, DM, ES), but all of them work as good, or nearly as good, on a multiclassed paladin. Now, there is finally one ability that doesn't.

Besides, many players build characters with the endgame in mind from the outset. A 2 rog/2wiz is very mediocre at level 4, and will be behind in most areas until he gets several more levels, but at cap, that wiz 14/rog 2 compares well with a pure wizard; neither is strictly better than the other, but they each have their strengths and weaknesses. Something needs to be done to reward players for not multiclassing, or, more correctly, to make multiclassing not just a question of, "With what?" but also of, "Should I?"

Currently, what reasons are there to not multiclass? Even casters are looking at arguably minor penalties for multiclassing (losing some SP, a point or two to spell penetration and maybe 1 point from save DC for a 1-2 level splash of anything else--8th level spells are pretty poor overall). Its a failing of most of the core classes from pen and paper. I think the druid may be the only PnP PHB 3.5 class I'd really think hard about multiclassing (including prestige classes here), because there are no prestige classes that improve the druid's spellcasting, wild shape and animal companion (nor even spellcasting and wildshape). Every other core class really deserves to be multiclassed. They fixed this somewhat in the Complete boos, Tome of Battle and PHB 2 by making sure to give them interesting and unique abilities throught their progression. While a Knight may have some fairly poor abilities from lvl 9 on, the fact that their earlier abilities suffer (lower DCs) and that the capstone is so good/cool make multiclassing a tough decision.

Yeah, some form of respec mechanism would be useful, but, aside from the grind for bound items and tomes, releveling a character is not too difficult for most people.

[Angelus_dead]

This comparison takes into account only one aspect of a character.
It's a simplification to make the problem more clear, but the concern still exists if you look at all character abilities. The fact is that with this capstone, pal20 is more powerful than every other single paladin level, with the possible exception of Divine Grace from pal2. (That perspective depends on exactly how you look at spellcasting acquisition).

If pal20 gives +2d6 or +4d6 damage against all the monsters anyone cares about, then that's unfair to pal19 characters, regardless of whether they're splashed pal19/X1, or are pure paladins who haven't reached cap yet. If you disagree, why?

If fig20 gives +10% attack rate, then that's unfair to fig19 characters, regardless of whether they're splashed fig19/X1, or are pure fighters who haven't reached cap yet. If you disagree, why?

In general, making highly-powerful capstones to counterbalance highly-powerful first levels is a mistake: two wrongs don't make a right. It's true that DDO currently has 5 seriously front-loaded class features: Evasion, Divine Grace, Wisdom AC, UMD, and Intimidate. Because those features are overpowered, characters who splashed 1-2 levels to obtain them presently do much better than pure builds, or multiclasses involving other combos.

It appears the devs may be trying to rectify that by creating some highly powerful capstones, so that losing out on the 20th level feature is a large sacrifice. That's inflationary and inconsistent. The better approach would be to spread back the benefit of frontloaded features, so that it takes more than just 1-2 levels to gain the full strength of the feature. When faced with just 5 front-loaded abilities, it would be simpler and safer to nerf those features, rather than try to buff level 20 of every other class to be competitive with them.

For example, the sorcerer ability to get 2x spellpoints from items would be front-loaded, except they intentionally avoided that by penalizing it for each non-sorc level. If not for that, then sor1 would give you +400 sp.

[Angelus_dead]

Something needs to be done to reward players for not multiclassing, or, more correctly, to make multiclassing not just a question of, "With what?" but also of, "Should I?"
As just explained above, the reason multiclassing is so attractive is because a few class features are front-loaded: they gain too much of the class power at a low level, so someone can splash just a couple levels of the class and forget the rest.

Nerfing front-loaded features would make splash multiclassing a whole lot less rewarding. Think about your examples of spellcasters:

Currently, what reasons are there to not multiclass? Even casters are looking at arguably minor penalties for multiclassing (losing some SP, a point or two to spell penetration and maybe 1 point from save DC for a 1-2 level splash of anything else--8th level spells are pretty poor overall).
They also lose spell slots, which should be painful because there should be more than 3 good spells at level 9. However, pretend for a moment that Evasion, Divine Grace, Wisdom AC, and UMD were all nerfed so that you couldn't get full benefit without taking at least several more levels of the granting class. Would spellcasters still feel such pressure to multiclass if they got less benefit from it?



Its a failing of most of the core classes from pen and paper. I think the druid may be the only PnP PHB 3.5 class I'd really think hard about multiclassing (including prestige classes here), because there are no prestige classes that improve the druid's spellcasting, wild shape and animal companion (nor even spellcasting and wildshape).
Planar Sheperd makes everything better!

[sephiroth1084]

As just explained above, the reason multiclassing is so attractive is because a few class features are front-loaded: they gain too much of the class power at a low level, so someone can splash just a couple levels of the class and forget the rest.

Nerfing front-loaded features would make splash multiclassing a whole lot less rewarding. Think about your examples of spellcasters:

They also lose spell slots, which should be painful because there should be more than 3 good spells at level 9. However, pretend for a moment that Evasion, Divine Grace, Wisdom AC, and UMD were all nerfed so that you couldn't get full benefit without taking at least several more levels of the granting class. Would spellcasters still feel such pressure to multiclass if they got less benefit from it?

First, rearranging the levels (or functionality) of low-level abilities that people splash for would break well over half the population's characters. That really isn't something that Turbine should be doing. Also, redesigning them in such a way would drive fewer characters to multiclass, and would probably result in far more stagnant character builds.

Whether the splash-multiclassing mechanics fostered by D&D 3.x are a good thing or not from a mechanics perspective, I'm not going to try and analyze now, but the variety that this tends to promote is good.

Also, how do you adjust these things? Should people be able to splash ranger 1 for Bow Str? For a FE? How about ranger 2 for two feats? Do the fighter's bonus feats need to be spread out somehow? And how would one do this spreading without hurting character early in the game?

Second, DDO does have to mimic PnP in some ways...how closely at this point, I don't know, but I'm sure that the leeway Turbine is given is probably more in the addative realm than that of alteration or reduction. That is to say, Turbine's hands may be tied in regards to changing iconic/inherent class features.



If pal20 gives +2d6 or +4d6 damage against all the monsters anyone cares about, then that's unfair to pal19 characters, regardless of whether they're splashed pal19/X1, or are pure paladins who haven't reached cap yet. If you disagree, why?

If fig20 gives +10% attack rate, then that's unfair to fig19 characters, regardless of whether they're splashed fig19/X1, or are pure fighters who haven't reached cap yet. If you disagree, why?

A character's power should improve as they increase in level. That's the nature of the system, and of our conception of character advancement (and often storytelling). I don't know why a solid/useful/powerful capstone should be unfair to a pure-classed character who simply hasn't reached the cap yet. This part really doesn't make any sense to me.

As for multiclassed characters...I don't see anyone complaining about casters getting 9th level spells when the cap goes up, yet there will be people who splashed 4 levels of something else on their caster and will be unable to get these spells. If a character doesn't have something to look forward to next level (or the one after, or the one after that...), why continue in the same class? Multiclassed characters knew they were going to be giving something up for gaining something else in return.

Those paladin 20s doing +4d6 damage may well be dying to living spells and fire elementals, while they guys who splashed 2 rogue or monk are running around mostly ignoring the offensive abilities of these monsters.

What would be more reasonable then? Why? What sort of abilities should we be seeing at level 20 to justify not multiclassing a character?



Planar Sheperd makes everything better!Where is this PrC (if indeed that is what this is) to be found?

[Borror0]

Where is this PrC (if indeed that is what this is) to be found?
Faiths of Eberron

PS: Useful wikipedia link. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prestige_classes)

[Angelus_dead]

First, rearranging the levels (or functionality) of low-level abilities that people splash for would break well over half the population's characters. That really isn't something that Turbine should be doing.
Hey kids, you know this- sing along: "Class respec means rules can change without really breaking characters"


Also, redesigning them in such a way would drive fewer characters to multiclass
Yeah, that's the objective. It's why high-powered capstones are being added, but it's something that would be better achieved by nerfing frontloaded features.


and would probably result in far more stagnant character builds.
Nope: frontloaded features lead to more stagnant builds, because a person takes 2 levels of monk or something and then has NO incentive at all to keep going.

Currently ran16 is fine, ran15/monk1 is fine, but ran14/monk2 means "What, are you stupid?!". If the class abilities were less frontloaded, then you'd see a greater variety in viable multiclasses.


Also, how do you adjust these things? Should people be able to splash ranger 1 for Bow Str? For a FE? How about ranger 2 for two feats?
Do I really need to answer something so obvious? I already listed the top 5 frontloaded features. This other stuff is a lot less important.

Yeah, aspects of other features might be marginally frontloaded as well, but perfect is the enemy of the good.



Second, DDO does have to mimic PnP in some ways...how closely at this point, I don't know, but I'm sure that the leeway Turbine is given is probably more in the addative realm than that of alteration or reduction. That is to say, Turbine's hands may be tied in regards to changing iconic/inherent class features.
That's irrelevant to the question.



A character's power should improve as they increase in level. That's the nature of the system, and of our conception of character advancement (and often storytelling).
Yes, of course. That's obviously my whole motivation.

Frontloaded features BREAK the idea of power increasing over time, because they provide a large amount of power immediately but with minimal upgradeds later on. It's like people keep saying: "Please give me a reason to take the class for more than 2 levels."

Rogue Evasion is a frontloaded ability, because you obtain it once early in the career, and then it works great forever.
Rogue Sneak Attack is a non-frontloaded ability, because you get better and better every 2 levels.


As for multiclassed characters...I don't see anyone complaining about casters getting 9th level spells when the cap goes up, yet there will be people who splashed 4 levels of something else on their caster and will be unable to get these spells.
A build multiclassing 4 other levels on a caster would be excessively rare, plus the rate of new spells was already pre-announced.


If a character doesn't have something to look forward to next level (or the one after, or the one after that...), why continue in the same class?
To say things like that indicates massive incomprehension, because my suggestions would improve those aspects of gameplay.



What would be more reasonable then? Why? What sort of abilities should we be seeing at level 20 to justify not multiclassing a character?
Did you read anything I wrote?

Here, I'll explain it one more time:
If the front-loaded abilities are nerfed, then you don't need high-powered capstones to justify non-multiclass builds. Nerfing the abilities of levels 1-2 of classes A, B, and C means that the level 20 abilities of classes D, E, and F don't need to be super-powerful just to be balanced.

[GunboatDiplomat]

I think this capstone is very nice and well balanced. Its pretty powerful but then taking 2 levels of monk, rogue or, to a lesser extent, fighter is pretty powerful too so this offsets it quite fairly, asssuming theres lots of new content mobs immune to it.


If the front-loaded abilities are nerfed, then you don't need high-powered capstones to justify non-multiclass builds. Nerfing the abilities of levels 1-2 of classes A, B, and C means that the level 20 abilities of classes D, E, and F don't need to be super-powerful just to be balanced.

A nerf of this magnitude is a terrible idea. The can of worms it would open up would require all sorts of balancing issues to be addressed and take a huge amount of dev time that would better be spent on new content. Plus, as a full respec is not on the cards for the foreseeable futre its all a bit of a moot point.

[sephiroth1084]

Stow the superiority complex and snide comments while engaging in discussion with me please.


Hey kids, you know this- sing along: "Class respec means rules can change without really breaking characters"
But should well over half the DDO population be respeccing their characters because of such a change? Is it worth altering the game that much?



Nope: frontloaded features lead to more stagnant builds, because a person takes 2 levels of monk or something and then has NO incentive at all to keep going.

Conversely, one might improve later features to grant incentive to continue into a class.

[quote=Angelus_dead;2022048]Currently ran16 is fine, ran15/monk1 is fine, but ran14/monk2 means "What, are you stupid?!". If the class abilities were less frontloaded, then you'd see a greater variety in viable multiclasses.[/quote

Perhaps, but it seems to me that there would be much less multiclassing since players would have to give up more of the higher level (better) class features for more lower level (weaker) ones. If something like evasion were to be pushed up in level, there will be a point where it just won't be worth multiclassing for most people because they will miss out on too many of their primary class' abilities. I don't think this is necessarily good, since one of my favorite features of 3.5 (vs. something like 2E or 4E) is the ability to select a character concept and then multiclass to build into that idea.


[quote=Angelus_dead;2022048]Do I really need to answer something so obvious? I already listed the top 5 frontloaded features. This other stuff is a lot less important.

It is at the moment, but what if Turbine makes archery better and bow Str becomes more attractive? What if they introduce enough other very good feats that splashing for 1-4 feats because a very big deal? Do they start moving abilities up every time they start becoming more popular/powerful?



That's irrelevant to the question.
It was relevant in that changing features that are directly defined and translated from PnP may not be under the purview of Turbine's licensing.



Frontloaded features BREAK the idea of power increasing over time, because they provide a large amount of power immediately but with minimal upgradeds later on. It's like people keep saying: "Please give me a reason to take the class for more than 2 levels."
It does and it doesn't. It does grant a sudden spike in character effectiveness, which flattens a little bit for a few levels, but continues to rise as other character abilities continue to cause the character to grow. Yes, many of these frontloaded abilities overshadow even several of many classes' later abilities, which is the issue. This issue, however, may be addressed in several ways, one of which being nerfing the frontloaded abilities, and another being an increase to some classes' higher end abilities. Your idea penalizes even the people who would stay pure at lower levels, which is harder to address (suddenly, rogues start having a far more difficult time with STK, for example).


A build multiclassing 4 other levels on a caster would be excessively rare, plus the rate of new spells was already pre-announced.
True, which is slightly different in that we had warning, but that's about it. The concept is the same.




If the front-loaded abilities are nerfed, then you don't need high-powered capstones to justify non-multiclass builds. Nerfing the abilities of levels 1-2 of classes A, B, and C means that the level 20 abilities of classes D, E, and F don't need to be super-powerful just to be balanced.

Maybe. On the other hand, moving evasion, let's say, to level 4, may prove more potent a multiclass still than taking 17+ levels in one class if the abilities don't draw someone to them. It's a fine line to balance upon, and both Turbine and WotC have fallen to either side frequently, either overpowering or underpowering a class or an ability. Simply making lower level abilities weaker will not necessarily incline anyone to continue all the way to 20 in a particular class.

Consider the difference in effort: the developers could add class features to level 17+ that are powerful enough or interesting enough to make players think twice about multiclassing, and, if those abilities appear to be too good or too bad, they can alter those abilities slightly without causing too great a headache, because few people will have them, due to the prevalence of multiclassing in the game, and how few pure classes there are, and because there will likely be little content at that point dependent upon a particular high level ability (especially until Mod 10 is released). However, altering low level abilities will affect a much greater portion of the game's population and will likely require the rebalancing or adjusting of quests at the early game that had portions targetting character with particular class features (most notably evasion).

Yes, a respec system will lessen the impact of any of these changes, whether to frontl-loaded or back-piled abilities, but I, personally, am not in favor of a complete character respec. I do not want people leveling up to 16 with something cheap and easy to play, and then morphing their character into something completely different, like a concept that takes a long time to develop so it is poor at early levels but very good at the high end. That sheds any notion of D&D still left in this game. Yes, we should have skill, feat and enhancement respecs. Ability scores can be adjusted up with tomes or the points at level-ups. Class levels should stay where they are, as should race.

For one thing, a full respec, allowing a character to go to such extremes as converting a wizard into a Str-based TWF ranger, would kill the early game, forcing new players to travel through a veritable ghost town as many of the players with 10 capped characters who would otherwise be rerolling new ones on occasion would instead simply rework an existing character. On top of that, there would be even more burden on Turbine to produce new content since so many fewer people would have incentive to replay earlier content.

[Borror0]

Stow the superiority complex and snide comments while engaging in discussion with me please.
Well, you did totally misunderstand his point...

But should well over half the DDO population be respeccing their characters because of such a change? Is it worth altering the game that much?
If half of the population respec their character, it means you messed up the rebalancing.

Conversely, one might improve later features to grant incentive to continue into a class.
It is nearly impossible. Either limited by inflation, cost/reward or simply because it is impossible to improve.

Assuming things can work both ways is a mistake. It would be to assume nerfing and buffing present the same advantages in the first place.

It seems to me that there would be much less multiclassing since players would have to give up more of the higher level (better) class features for more lower level (weaker) ones.
If that does happen, you messed up your balancing. There will be less players, that's a given.

To present that as a negative thing is to assume the developers messed up when rebalancing the front-loaded ability.

It is at the moment, but what if Turbine makes archery better and bow Str becomes more attractive? [...]
I think he did say:


Perfect is the enemy of the good.
Secondly, Bow Strength could merged with Point Blank Shot or added as a feat on its own. Making it ranger exclusive was a mistake in the first place.

This issue, however, may be addressed in several ways, one of which being nerfing the frontloaded abilities, and another being an increase to some classes' higher end abilities.
To present the two options as having the same repercussion or implying remotely similar amount of work is misleading.

Consider the difference in effort: the developers could add class features to level 17+ that are powerful enough or interesting enough to make players think twice about multiclassing
Consider the following situations:

Level cap increase.
Deeper multiclassing.
Two players with identical builds but with one level difference.

The problem's still there.

Nerfing the front-loaded abilities solve these all. For "buffing" to solve those, it would require immense amount of work.

Allowing a character to go to such extremes as converting a wizard into a Str-based TWF ranger
While that is possible, most players rolled a wizard because they wanted a spellcaster. Not because they wanted a TWF ranger.

Those that rolled a wizard in hopes of having a melee character most likely won't respec their character.

[...] forcing new players to travel through a veritable ghost town as many of the players with 10 capped characters who would otherwise be rerolling new ones on occasion would instead simply rework an existing character.
If you personally view "forced" reroll by nerfing a good thing, you got a point.

However, if you assume that a lot of players will respec rather than roll a new character, you are wrong.

On top of that, there would be even more burden on Turbine to produce new content since so many fewer people would have incentive to replay earlier content.
Non-sequitur.

[Angelus_dead]

But should well over half the DDO population be respeccing their characters because of such a change? Is it worth altering the game that much?
An invalid question whose premise is untrue.


Conversely, one might improve later features to grant incentive to continue into a class.
That's what I've been suggesting; that's necessarily a part of spreading out front-loaded features.


If something like evasion were to be pushed up in level, there will be a point where it just won't be worth multiclassing for most people
The word "spread" has a different meaning than "push". I never suggested anything like increasing the level at which you gain Evasion.

To spread out an ability might be something like:
1. Evasion at rog2 gives you 45% damage on a successful reflex save, and each additional level reduces it by 5% (min 0).
or
2. Evasion at rog2 allows you to take 0 damage on a reflex save that passes by 10, and each additional level reduces that requirement by 1 (min 0).


It is at the moment, but what if Turbine makes archery better and bow Str becomes more attractive? What if they introduce enough other very good feats that splashing for 1-4 feats because a very big deal?
1. Bow Strength should really be a feat (or magic property) anyhow.
2. Bonus feats are already fairly spread out for the fighter class.


Do they start moving abilities up every time they start becoming more popular/powerful?
If they hypothetically introduce design flaws, they should fix them as appropriate to those flaws.


It was relevant in that changing features that are directly defined and translated from PnP may not be under the purview of Turbine's licensing.
That has no effect on what game design choices are better or worse; all it does is change the person who takes the blame for failure. A mistake is still wrong regardless of if it were made by Turbine, Wizards, Hasbro, or Atari.


This issue, however, may be addressed in several ways, one of which being nerfing the frontloaded abilities, and another being an increase to some classes' higher end abilities.
Yes, there are two ways to go about it. But as already explained, DDO only has a couple of strongly frontloaded features, and to buff up every other feature to compete with them would be (at best) tremendously more effort, and at worst it would be an opportunity for inflation and unpredictable interactions.

I already listed the top 5 front-loaded abilities: Evasion, Divine Grace, Wisdom AC, UMD, and Intimidate. There are exactly 3 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 3 = 10 class levels that grant one of those abilities, as opposed to 190 that do not (as of mod9). To attempt to improve the power of every other level to match the front-loaded five is clearly ludicrous. Even if the attempt is restricted to buffing level20 class features (which is a fairly ineffective approach), it still means you'd have 10 features that need buffing, as opposed to just 5 that need nerfing.


Your idea penalizes even the people who would stay pure at lower levels, which is harder to address (suddenly, rogues start having a far more difficult time with STK, for example).
That's implementation dependent. In the worst case, it simply means developers adding a few specific touches to make things easier for low-level characters with that feature. For example, if Wisdom AC were nerfed to give a bonus no higher than your monk level, then you'd add a new monk-only outfit with 4 armor AC as a Korthos reward. Or for rogues vs STK, you could nerf the DC or placement of the fire traps.



Consider the difference in effort: the developers could add class features to level 17+ that are powerful enough or interesting enough to make players think twice about multiclassing, and, if those abilities appear to be too good or too bad, they can alter those abilities slightly without causing too great a headache, because few people will have them, due to the prevalence of multiclassing in the game, and how few pure classes there are
No. It's fallacious to say that players whose characters are already multiclassed wouldn't suffer "headaches" when powerful capstones are added. Just look at this counterexample (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170472).


I, personally, am not in favor of a complete character respec. I do not want people leveling up to 16 with something cheap and easy to play, and then morphing their character into something completely different, like a concept that takes a long time to develop so it is poor at early levels but very good at the high end.
That's an implementation detail that might or might not be possible under any particular respec system.

For example, suppose that the system allowed you to respec by dropping class levels one at a time and then re-earning the XP. It would be fairly minor for pal18/monk2 to change into pal20, but for ran20 to become wiz20 would be approximately as difficult as being wiz20 from the beginning.

[Angelus_dead]

I already listed the top 5 front-loaded abilities: Evasion, Divine Grace, Wisdom AC, UMD, and Intimidate. There are exactly 3 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 3 = 10 class levels that grant one of those abilities, as opposed to 190 that do not (as of mod9).
Actually there are 9 levels that grant those, and 191 that don't. The error was that rog1 grants both UMD and Intimidate, but every other of those levels has only one frontloaded feature:
Evasion: rog2, monk2, ran9
Divine Grace: pal2
Wisdom AC: monk1
UMD: bard1, rog1
Intimidate: rog1, fig1, barb1

[moorewr]

The discussion here prompts me to pose a question - a rhetorical one really -

Should DDO attempt to replicate the game design imbalances (you could say mistakes if you like) present in D&D v3.5?

This goes to the heart of the DD in DDO; I'm not sure how a poll of the player-base would go with that question, beyond I know I'd say yes and A_D would say no. At least I think so.

What I am referring to here are maladies well known to PnP players - dead levels, weakness of caster classes at low levels (and the reverse at high levels), the tendency to multi-classed characters, etc etc.

[Angelus_dead]

The pally capstone needs a nerf. Here's two suggestions

1. Gentle Nerf: +1d6 against non-good, or +2d6 against evil, or +3d6 against undead and evil outsiders.
2. Strong Nerf: +1d6 against evil, or +2d6 against undead and evil outsiders.

As a consolation, either option can additional gain either
(a) Good-aligned damage for DR purposes
(b) A +1 bonus to DR/- against evil creatures, or +2 against undead and evil outsiders.

[maddmatt70]

The pally capstone needs a nerf. Here's two suggestions

1. Gentle Nerf: +1d6 against non-good, or +2d6 against evil, or +3d6 against undead and evil outsiders.
2. Strong Nerf: +1d6 against evil, or +2d6 against undead and evil outsiders.

As a consolation, either option can additional gain either
(a) Good-aligned damage for DR purposes
(b) A +1 bonus to DR/- against evil creatures, or +2 against undead and evil outsiders.

I would at least cut the damage in half d6 vs. non good and another d6 light damage against undead and evil outsiders. That is still arguably stronger then the third tier of the knights of the chalice which I would have to spend prerequisites to get - far more then 2 action points.

[Yaga_Nub]

.....

If pal20 gives +2d6 or +4d6 damage against all the monsters anyone cares about, then that's unfair to pal19 characters, regardless of whether they're splashed pal19/X1, or are pure paladins who haven't reached cap yet. If you disagree, why?

It's not unfair. If you're the pal 19 character you are supposed to be inferior to a pal 20 character. That's what rank is about. Using your logic then it's unfair to a pal 1 character as well.

It's not unfair to the pal 19/x1 because the X1 gives that character something that pal 20 can't have which is what creates the balance.

If fig20 gives +10% attack rate, then that's unfair to fig19 characters, regardless of whether they're splashed fig19/X1, or are pure fighters who haven't reached cap yet. If you disagree, why?

See statement above

In general, making highly-powerful capstones to counterbalance highly-powerful first levels is a mistake: two wrongs don't make a right. It's true that DDO currently has 5 seriously front-loaded class features: Evasion, Divine Grace, Wisdom AC, UMD, and Intimidate. Because those features are overpowered, characters who splashed 1-2 levels to obtain them presently do much better than pure builds, or multiclasses involving other combos.

First DnD has 5 front-loaded class features (DDO just follows DnD in this aspect as it should). Yes those characters that splashed for them MIGHT do better than a pure build but now they might not. You know the whole good things come to those that wait saying don't you? Here's an example of that happening.

It appears the devs may be trying to rectify that by creating some highly powerful capstones, so that losing out on the 20th level feature is a large sacrifice. That's inflationary and inconsistent. The better approach would be to spread back the benefit of frontloaded features, so that it takes more than just 1-2 levels to gain the full strength of the feature. When faced with just 5 front-loaded abilities, it would be simpler and safer to nerf those features, rather than try to buff level 20 of every other class to be competitive with them.

For example, the sorcerer ability to get 2x spellpoints from items would be front-loaded, except they intentionally avoided that by penalizing it for each non-sorc level. If not for that, then sor1 would give you +400 sp.

What item are you thinking would give you +400 sp at sor 1 because the first archmagi item that I can think of is ML 13.

[sephiroth1084]

Too lazy to quote everything just now.

My assumption isn't that they are the same, but that adding abilities later in a class is similar to nerfing their front-loaded stuff, in that both methods would encourage staying in a class. Sure, increasing the level cap will have an effect, but the effect would be similar in either case, since, at level 24, one could splash 4 levels of a class and still get a capstone.

Honestly, reworking the early levels for 3 or 4 classes seems like it would require much more work than adding some abilities to classes at later levels. Let's take Evasion. What level does it get moved to? 3? 4? 6? How far back do we push it to make splashing rogue or monk just for this less attractive? Then, assuming that this happens, the devs may realize they pushed it too far, or should have gone further, and feel that it should move again. Then, something should probably replace that ability at level 2, since there is a hole now where once there was a useful "feat". On top of that, quests like STK that really want to have someone with trapsmithing skills and evasion will suddenly become more difficult at their level because the characters those quests were designed for no longer would exist.

And, depending on how a respec would be implemented, I could definitely see many people leveling clerics (easy to get into groups, fast to level, requires little by way of expensive or hard to acquire gear, barring scrolls and wands), and then changing them into something else once they have gotten their levels. Sure, not everyone would do this, but that is a feature I'd not like to see in the game.

[Angelus_dead]

What item are you thinking would give you +400 sp at sor 1 because the first archmagi item that I can think of is ML 13.
Characters with only 1 level of sorcerer can equip level 13 items so long as they have 12 levels of other classes.

This example is "front loaded" because if a wiz19 takes sor1 instead of wiz20, he immediately gains +200 sp from an Archmagi item and +150 sp from Green Weave Belt = +350 sp (then the sorc level itself adds a bit of mana).

But instead, Turbine prevented that by penalizing the sorc spellpoint point, so the character would only get 1/19 * 350 = +18 more sp from the item.

[Yaga_Nub]

Characters with only 1 level of sorcerer can equip level 13 items so long as they have 12 levels of other classes.

This example is "front loaded" because if a wiz19 takes sor1 instead of wiz20, he immediately gains +200 sp from an Archmagi item and +150 sp from Green Weave Belt = +350 sp (then the sorc level itself adds a bit of mana).

But instead, Turbine prevented that by penalizing the sorc spellpoint point, so the character would only get 1/19 * 350 = +18 more sp from the item.

Gotcha, when you didn't put sor1/XXX 19 I thought you were saying that there was something that could give a sor 1 +400 sp.

[Angelus_dead]

My assumption isn't that they are the same, but that adding abilities later in a class is similar to nerfing their front-loaded stuff, in that both methods would encourage staying in a class.
The fallaciousness of that interpretation has been explained already.


Honestly, reworking the early levels for 3 or 4 classes seems like it would require much more work than adding some abilities to classes at later levels.
It does not seem like that.


Let's take Evasion. What level does it get moved to? 3? 4? 6? How far back do we push it to make splashing rogue or monk just for this less attractive?
I just went over that with specific examples. Your comment creates the impression that you haven't been reading before replying.


And, depending on how a respec would be implemented, I could definitely see many people leveling clerics (easy to get into groups, fast to level, requires little by way of expensive or hard to acquire gear, barring scrolls and wands), and then changing them into something else once they have gotten their levels.
That would be a silly thing to do. If you don't like to play clerics, why play a cleric? You seem to be drastically overestimating the levelling distinction between clerics and nonclerics, particularly for characters who are already wealthy.

[Borror0]

It's not unfair. If you're the pal 19 character you are supposed to be inferior to a pal 20 character. That's what rank is about. Using your logic then it's unfair to a pal 1 character as well.

It's not unfair to the pal 19/x1 because the X1 gives that character something that pal 20 can't have which is what creates the balance.
Do you know what a scale is?

[sephiroth1084]

An invalid question whose premise is untrue.


That's what I've been suggesting; that's necessarily a part of spreading out front-loaded features.


The word "spread" has a different meaning than "push". I never suggested anything like increasing the level at which you gain Evasion.

To spread out an ability might be something like:
1. Evasion at rog2 gives you 45% damage on a successful reflex save, and each additional level reduces it by 5% (min 0).
or
2. Evasion at rog2 allows you to take 0 damage on a reflex save that passes by 10, and each additional level reduces that requirement by 1 (min 0).


1. Bow Strength should really be a feat (or magic property) anyhow.
2. Bonus feats are already fairly spread out for the fighter class.


If they hypothetically introduce design flaws, they should fix them as appropriate to those flaws.


That has no effect on what game design choices are better or worse; all it does is change the person who takes the blame for failure. A mistake is still wrong regardless of if it were made by Turbine, Wizards, Hasbro, or Atari.


Yes, there are two ways to go about it. But as already explained, DDO only has a couple of strongly frontloaded features, and to buff up every other feature to compete with them would be (at best) tremendously more effort, and at worst it would be an opportunity for inflation and unpredictable interactions.

I already listed the top 5 front-loaded abilities: Evasion, Divine Grace, Wisdom AC, UMD, and Intimidate. There are exactly 3 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 3 = 10 class levels that grant one of those abilities, as opposed to 190 that do not (as of mod9). To attempt to improve the power of every other level to match the front-loaded five is clearly ludicrous. Even if the attempt is restricted to buffing level20 class features (which is a fairly ineffective approach), it still means you'd have 10 features that need buffing, as opposed to just 5 that need nerfing.


That's implementation dependent. In the worst case, it simply means developers adding a few specific touches to make things easier for low-level characters with that feature. For example, if Wisdom AC were nerfed to give a bonus no higher than your monk level, then you'd add a new monk-only outfit with 4 armor AC as a Korthos reward. Or for rogues vs STK, you could nerf the DC or placement of the fire traps.



No. It's fallacious to say that players whose characters are already multiclassed wouldn't suffer "headaches" when powerful capstones are added. Just look at this counterexample (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=170472).


That's an implementation detail that might or might not be possible under any particular respec system.

For example, suppose that the system allowed you to respec by dropping class levels one at a time and then re-earning the XP. It would be fairly minor for pal18/monk2 to change into pal20, but for ran20 to become wiz20 would be approximately as difficult as being wiz20 from the beginning.

Spreading out abilities...finding the balance for this sort of thing is even more difficult than plotting out a few high level abilities, because one effect has to be applied across many levels and many quests, and has to be accounted for in how it interacts with multiclassing.

As I see it, powerful capstones encourage pure-classing, while spreading or pushing abilities up in level discourages multiclassing, which I feel is an important difference. I don't want to play 4E where multiclassing is near meaningless and generally a waste of time/investment.

You may not feel that gaining 2 bonus feats for 2 levels of fighter, or ranger is a big deal, but many do, and, as more feats that are worth taking are released, this kind of splash will become more and more powerful. Should we push back or somehow spread out the fighter's only class feature?

My comment about Turbine's freedom with the material wasn't to lay blame, but to alight upon the fact that, if they cannot make changes without WotC's approval was to emphasize the fact that, for the most part, we are going to have to live with PnP's hand-me-down broken rules.


Ultimately, there are many problems with the game, some stemming from issues inherent in D&D 3.5, some from the conversion of a PnP game to a videogame, and some that Turbine has introduced. Curing one will not cure the others. But, here are my ideas for correcting some:
-Treat cross-classed skills as they are supposed to be treated. That is, a cross-classes skill that is at or beyond max cc ranks, may still have 1 point (not 1 rank) put into it each level. This means that someone cannot get intimidate on a level 1 fighter and then put 2 points each level to get a full rank every level thereafter on their paladin. Instead, they'd get the 4 from fighter, then would get 1/2 a rank each level going up.
-Change monk Wis and innate AC to being on only while balanced (not using non-monk weapons, being encumbered, armored, etc...).

I don't see any problem with people splashing for evasion or divine grace. The problem from PnP was that there was no reason to continue in the classes. Yeah, front-loaded abilities make 1-2 level multiclassing very effective, but I have always felt that this issue was more with having nothing to look forward to. The system was designed with prestige classes in mind, but didn't fully incorporate that notion across the board (compare D&D 3.5 to d20 Modern or Star Wars Saga Edition, where classes are designed to lead into advanced or prestige classes).

If we bump or "spread" some abilities, many multiclassing options become erased. Yes, some new builds will emerge, but I think more will disappear. As it stands, we currently have builds that will look like: 20x, 19x/1y, 18x/2y, 16x/4 fighter, 12x/6y. How would shifting power up from levels 1 and 2 change those kinda of breakdowns for the better?

I'd much rather see some balancing addressed in other ways:
-Incentives to go to level 16, 18, 20... in a single class
-Fixing skills
-Removing all of the ability score boosting enhancements
-Designing quests that emphasize specialized abilities (traps that require full rogues, perhaps unholy alters that need to be "turned" and that require a fairly high turning check, etc...)

[sephiroth1084]

I just went over that with specific examples. Your comment creates the impression that you haven't been reading before replying.

I was typing out a response and did not see yours until after I had posted mine.

[sephiroth1084]

The pally capstone needs a nerf. Here's two suggestions

1. Gentle Nerf: +1d6 against non-good, or +2d6 against evil, or +3d6 against undead and evil outsiders.
2. Strong Nerf: +1d6 against evil, or +2d6 against undead and evil outsiders.

As a consolation, either option can additional gain either
(a) Good-aligned damage for DR purposes
(b) A +1 bonus to DR/- against evil creatures, or +2 against undead and evil outsiders.

I said as much earlier in the thread, though without the imperative tone. I'd much rather get +1d6 pure good and then +1d6 or +2d6 light vs. undead and evil outsiders w/ the ability to bypass DR x/good than the +4d6 version.

[sephiroth1084]

If half of the population respec their character, it means you messed up the rebalancing.
.

Well, if 2 lvl dip multiclassing is nerfed, I'd imagine many people would be rerolling, given how many 14x/2y, 12x/2y/2z builds I see around.

[Borror0]

Well, if 2 lvl dip multiclassing is nerfed, I'd imagine many people would be rerolling, given how many 14x/2y, 12x/2y/2z builds I see around.
It does not mean it would be nerfed into oblivion.

[Yaga_Nub]

Do you know what a scale is?

Not everything has to scale Bor. Not everything has to be fair. Most of life isn't fair so why should this game be?

Besides everyone has there own idea about what is fair and what isn't.

[moorewr]

Not everything has to scale Bor. Not everything has to be fair. Most of life isn't fair so why should this game be?

Besides everyone has there own idea about what is fair and what isn't.

A game designer has to follow basic design principles so that a player of a given skill level can have fun no matter what course they choose in the game.. so to use a recent example, if they decided to quadruple ranged DPS and everyone had to play an Arcane Archer* to be effective because the mobs had their ranged DPS inflated in response, that would be bad and yes "unfair" design.


*PS: I should be so lucky.

[sephiroth1084]

The fallaciousness of that interpretation has been explained already.


And the fact that I keep coming back to it should indicate that your explanation has yet to be satisfactory.

DDO is working off of PnP, and the majority of the base classes in PnP do not encourage staying pure because they lack new and interesting abilities at the higher levels. Looking at the just the PHB, paladins gain 3 extra smites per day after level 5 (and they are a fairly weak ability even in PnP), a few remove disease (which a cleric could be casting many more times in a day than a paladin can in a week), some improvements to their mount (which is incredibly situational, since mounts don't work well in most campaigns and require several feats, on a feat starved class, to become useful) and some mediocre spells that clerics have been casting for 2-8 levels already.

Players in PnP splashed paladin because there just isn't enough reason to go for more levels of paladin. In DDO, spreading out Divine Grace likely will not promote paladin pure-classing, since many players don't seem to bother with the Resistance of Good enhancements, those players wouldn't feel compelled to stay in paladin for an additional +1 to saves. Additionally, even non-paladins and non-monks can seem to get saves high enough to succeed on a 2, that the difference at endgame between a pure paladin and a multiclassed one would likely amount to naught anyway.

The fact that people are getting upset about missing out on some of the capstones while other people are shrugging and turning back to their multiclassed characters demonstrates that at least some of the capstones are having the desired effect: making whether to multiclass or not a tough decision, rather than a foregone conclusion.

[sephiroth1084]

It does not mean it would be nerfed into oblivion.

Well, nerfing enough to make the 2 level dip slightly less attractive (and as a result, the pure classed character more attractive), yet without negating the utility of the dip is a very hard spot to nail.

[Angelus_dead]

And the fact that I keep coming back to it should indicate that your explanation has yet to be satisfactory.
Fallacy of incredulity.

Your inability to understand doesn't prove that my position was inaccurate. In particular, you haven't demonstrated a familiarity with my position, which seriously undermines your authority to pass judgment on it.


DDO is working off of PnP, and the majority of the base classes in PnP do not encourage staying pure because they lack new and interesting abilities at the higher levels. Looking at the just the PHB, paladins gain 3 extra smites per day after level 5 (and they are a fairly weak ability even in PnP)
Fallacy of fidelity (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks). Just because D&D did something doesn't mean DDO should too.

That's true in two separate ways:
1. Sometimes the D&D rules had errors.
2. Some things that work fine sitting at a table don't work when logging to a server.


Well, nerfing enough to make the 2 level dip slightly less attractive (and as a result, the pure classed character more attractive), yet without negating the utility of the dip is a very hard spot to nail.
Yes, that's hard. And it's even harder to make capstones that compete with splashes, and that continue to work for characters of level 18, 20, or 22.

[maddmatt70]

A multitude of new pure pallys have just been created on Khyber. You see them running around. I don't have the energy to recreate a pally that I just made 4 months ago because Turbine arbitrarily created a new hoop at level 20. I am tired of running my gimped fighter who should not be gimped but has been gimped since mod 6 came out, will probably still be gimped next mod and is a pure level 16 fighter. My deep multiclass ranger is gimped because Turbine made kensai I gimped and Tempest II gimped, but if I would have went kensai II and Tempest 1 (with 2 rogue levels) or tempest 1 and Frenzied Berserker II (with 2 rogue levels) I would be in much better shape. It is all so arbitrarily stupid especially since mods now come out every 4 months and magnified because when Turbine makes a change it seems to take them 8 months to fix it if it was a poorly conceived change.

[Angelus_dead]

-Treat cross-classed skills as they are supposed to be treated. That is, a cross-classes skill that is at or beyond max cc ranks, may still have 1 point (not 1 rank) put into it each level.
That's a funny interpretation of "supposed", as it is exactly the opposite of the explicit D&D rules. However, I might agree that a change to that rule could possibly lead to a better gameplay result.

[sephiroth1084]

Fallacy of incredulity.

Your inability to understand doesn't prove that my position was inaccurate. In particular, you haven't demonstrated a familiarity with my position, which seriously undermines your authority to pass judgment on it.

I understand your position: that by taking something like Evasion, and spreading it out from level 2 onward, you will lessen the impact of splashing 2 levels of rogue for evasion, while ensuring that a rogue 5 will be better at evading a reflex for half spell or effect than a rogue 4/x1, and that this is somehow supposed to rectify a portion of the broken nature of the class system DDO has inherited. I see that this will make taking more than 2 levels in a class more valuable than it currently is on a relative scale.

I do not see how this would encourage anyone to take more levels in a class like the fighter or paladin (lets say pre-Mod 9, since we are not in that environment yet). Yes, this would ensure that a pure-classed character would not be outdone in a specific aspect by someone who splashed that class, but I don't see that actually fixing anything. If the new content plays like the end fight in Enter the Kobold, then going 4 or 8 levels of rogue in order to get 50% evasion will likely be just as worthwhile for many characters as it is currently, while dipping paladin for Divine Grace will likely lose its savor, and taking more levels for the same effect probably will not be attractive.

What is the goal you had in mind for spreading out the abilities? Simply making the dip-multiclass less effective? Why? To negate the need/desire for strong capstone abilities? I honestly do not see what that would accomplish, other than making some multiclassing decisions weak or weaker than they are.

And, generally, if someone appears to not understand your argument, the impetus is upon you to represent your point in such a way that it becomes clear, not sneer at the person as you prattle on. If I missed something your intent, then it is a fault of your train of logic, or ability to present your point otherwise. Why not try to expound your thoughts in greater detail, clarifying your points, rather than returning with a dismissal of others'critque and argument?

[EinarMal]

A multitude of new pure pallys have just been created on Khyber. You see them running around. I don't have the energy to recreate a pally that I just made 4 months ago because Turbine arbitrarily created a new hoop at level 20. I am tired of running my gimped fighter who should not be gimped but has been gimped since mod 6 came out, will probably still be gimped next mod and is a pure level 16 fighter. My deep multiclass ranger is gimped because Turbine made kensai I gimped and Tempest II gimped, but if I would have went kensai II and Tempest 1 (with 2 rogue levels) or tempest 1 and Frenzied Berserker II (with 2 rogue levels) I would be in much better shape. It is all so arbitrarily stupid especially since mods now come out every 4 months and magnified because when Turbine makes a change it seems to take them 8 months to fix it if it was a poorly conceived change.

I am with you man, it is getting ridiculous, no one can reasonably plan out a character anymore no matter what you do. The speed at which they correct imbalance is also pretty tiresome, you have to wait MONTHS in hopes that they will finally get around to fixing <insert class here>.

People who say if you play it safe blah blah... just have gotten lucky. Now you guys want to nerf all splashing of classes that is crazy. If they do that I am well and truly gone, this game is supposed to be 3.5 D&D or as close as they can get to it IMO. If you want to totally re-design the classes then what the hell is the point of even calling it D&D?

[EinarMal]

Yes, that's hard. And it's even harder to make capstones that compete with splashes, and that continue to work for characters of level 18, 20, or 22.

A_D normally I agree with most of the things you say, but I do not like the idea of changing class abilities around and negating splashing. If you did that, coupled with prestige enhancements with class requirements, there would essentially be no multi-classing.

I actually like 3.5 D&D rules and like multi-classing. I think front loading is a grand idea and synergistic classes make the game more fun not less.

I do not like this idea at all.

[Angelus_dead]

And, generally, if someone appears to not understand your argument, the impetus is upon you to represent your point in such a way that it becomes clear, not sneer at the person as you prattle on. If I missed something your intent, then it is a fault of your train of logic, or ability to present your point otherwise. Why not try to expound your thoughts in greater detail, clarifying your points, rather than returning with a dismissal of others'critque and argument?
Because I'm not motivated to expend tremendous pedagogical effort, especially towards someone who does not appear to pay close attention.

There are a billion people on the internet, and if I stop to carefully explain everything to each and every one of them, nothing else will get done (http://xkcd.com/386/).

[jakeelala]

oops

[Angelus_dead]

A_D normally I agree with most of the things you say, but I do not like the idea of changing class abilities around and negating splashing.
There's a difference between "negating" splashing and "weakening" splashing so that it's in-line with the other choices (which are pure-class or split-class)

[Emili]

A multitude of new pure pallys have just been created on Khyber. You see them running around. I don't have the energy to recreate a pally that I just made 4 months ago because Turbine arbitrarily created a new hoop at level 20. I am tired of running my gimped fighter who should not be gimped but has been gimped since mod 6 came out, will probably still be gimped next mod and is a pure level 16 fighter. My deep multiclass ranger is gimped because Turbine made kensai I gimped and Tempest II gimped, but if I would have went kensai II and Tempest 1 (with 2 rogue levels) or tempest 1 and Frenzied Berserker II (with 2 rogue levels) I would be in much better shape. It is all so arbitrarily stupid especially since mods now come out every 4 months and magnified because when Turbine makes a change it seems to take them 8 months to fix it if it was a poorly conceived change.


On the flip side of the coin... I have Amilia - a pure lvl16 pally built the first day drow came out, Who btw I considered gimped since the nerfs on melee (especially pallys) when GiantHold's mod went in... I restled and debated about splashing her with every level cap increase since 12. I have a pure fighter... Emili which as you may know had been my main since the dawn of DDO ... well back in beta she was a pure ranger first but ranger's sucked back then... thus from live date on a pure fighter she's been... I again rustled with her deciding not to splash a class or two.... It's not that I feel splash is bad... it's actually good... but I feel a pure pally should be a better at being a pally then a splash pally... and that a pure fighter should be better at being a fighter then a splashed fighter... and that a pure monk should be more monk-like then a splash monk and a pure rogue more rogue-like etc... Gamewise though... 3.0 and 3.5 broke some very important balances inherent in previous versions of DnD... Before 3.0 there were prereq's for classes which balanced the multi-classing humans and half-elves, etc... assuring that some of the front loaded features of certain classes were not exploited so often... The fact that the gates were open to multi-class with little adherance and removal of pre's for that class created a ruleset where 18 levels of a class such as paladin or rogue ... became arbitrary data with little use except to take up half a page in a book.

The dead spots of a class are hiden in a PnP game by a DM usually... because they cater to the players at the table to some extent. Here in DDO that cannot be done.

[EinarMal]

There's a difference between "negating" splashing and "weakening" splashing so that it's in-line with the other choices (which are pure-class or split-class)

Yeah ok maybe but that is not an easy task, which I have very little faith will be done in any kind of timely manner. You would have to offer a re-spec for free to everyone if you did this. Then what would probably happen is they would make an attempt at it, probably with 1/3rd the classes, then wait 4-6 months for the next round and re-balancing etc...

If I can't play 3.5 D&D rules honestly I would go play NWN or something else entirely. That may not be a "logical" disagreement but I have a feeling that I would not be alone in this feeling.

I am fine with things built on top of 3.5 to add flavor (although I think the current enhancement system is grossly overpowered and makes feats/skills much less valuable than they should be). If they change fundamental things like not getting full ranks of Rogue skills for a splash, or Evasion at level 2, then I will no longer be interested in playing because they will essentially be "lying" by putting Dungeons & Dragons in the name in my book.

I think a lot of the really loyal customers here are not power gamers, rather they are people who really like the Dungeons and Dragons rule set. I like it the way it was designed (yes it has flaws but so does any game system).

I already dislike the 6-12-18 progression and capstones, because it limits build creativity and forces you to min/max to certain levels. I think 20 levels of one class is boring and un-imaginative combing synergistic things together makes for much more varied and compelling characters to me.

[sephiroth1084]

Because I'm not motivated to expend tremendous pedagogical effort, especially towards someone who does not appear to pay close attention.

There are a billion people on the internet, and if I stop to carefully explain everything to each and every one of them, nothing else will get done (http://xkcd.com/386/).

And yet I continue to show that courtesy to you, and without haughtiness. Guess I'm at fault here.


There's a difference between "negating" splashing and "weakening" splashing so that it's in-line with the other choices (which are pure-class or split-class)

Apparently, I'm not the only one who does not see how you can reduce the impact on the 2 lvl. dip without negating its utility and still promoting the taking of a class to lvl 16 (or 20). Spreading abilities out still does not address the fact that, without a nice level 20 ability, there is almost no reason to not multiclass for at least 1 level. And for many classes, the last planned useful ability will be coming at 18, maybe. For others that will come earlier. I don't see how spreading out low level abilities will solve this problem (and really, this whole discussion started because you felt the paladin capstone was too strong).

[EinarMal]

On the flip side of the coin... I have Amilia - a pure lvl16 pally built the first day drow came out, Who btw I considered gimped since the nerfs on melee (especially pallys) when GiantHold's mod went in... I restled and debated about splashing her with every level cap increase since 12. I have a pure fighter... Emili which as you may know had been my main since the dawn of DDO ... well back in beta she was a pure ranger first but ranger's sucked back then... thus from live date on a pure fighter she's been... I again rustled with her deciding not to splash a class or two.... It's not that I feel splash is bad... it's actually good... but I feel a pure pally should be a better at being a pally then a splash pally... and that a pure fighter should be better at being a fighter then a splashed fighter... and that a pure monk should be more monk-like then a splash monk and a pure rogue more rogue-like etc... Gamewise though... 3.0 and 3.5 broke some very important balances inherent in previous versions of DnD... Before 3.0 there were prereq's for classes which balanced the multi-classing humans and half-elves, etc... assuring that some of the front loaded features of certain classes were not exploited so often... The fact that the gates were open to multi-class with little adherance and removal of pre's for that class created a ruleset where 18 levels of a class such as paladin or rogue ... became arbitrary data with little use except to take up half a page in a book.

The dead spots of a class are hiden in a PnP game by a DM usually... because they cater to the players at the table to some extent. Here in DDO that cannot be done.


You know that is true there were checks in place. A better solution to nerfing splash classes would be some kind of penalty for not following favored class rules for multi-classing.

Give players a -10% run speed permanent de-buff if they don't follow the rules rather than the xp penalty (which wouldn't really work). Or something else along those lines.

I would much rather have that system then one where you are essentially re-writing the rules.

[sephiroth1084]

You know that is true there were checks in place. A better solution to nerfing splash classes would be some kind of penalty for not following favored class rules for multi-classing.

Give players a -10% run speed permanent de-buff if they don't follow the rules rather than the xp penalty (which wouldn't really work). Or something else along those lines.

I would much rather have that system then one where you are essentially re-writing the rules.

I never liked the favored class mechanic, but the multiclassing penalty did prevent some of the cheese we see here in DDO. The speed penalty might make an impact, but would likely annoy your teammates, and would be a social penalty rather than a mechanical one.

[EinarMal]

I never liked the favored class mechanic, but the multiclassing penalty did prevent some of the cheese we see here in DDO. The speed penalty might make an impact, but would likely annoy your teammates, and would be a social penalty rather than a mechanical one.

I would prefer they do nothing, and leave multi-classing as it is in 3.5 It was pointed out that many combinations would carry an xp penalty which doesn't translate all that well.

Turbine simply removed the penalties, another option would be to come up with some else that has some negative benefit to offset the multi-classing. It doesn't have to be run speed, that was my 2 secs of thought idea. It could be any number of things.

[moorewr]

Because I'm not motivated to expend tremendous pedagogical effort, especially towards someone who does not appear to pay close attention.

There are a billion people on the internet, and if I stop to carefully explain everything to each and every one of them, nothing else will get done (http://xkcd.com/386/).


My all time favorite XKCD cartoon. :)

[Borror0]

Not everything has to scale Bor.
Oh, that's not the point. You were saying that it is normal for a level 20 to be more powerful than a level 19.

Of course, but there is an amount. There is such a thing as gaining too much in one level. If you gained +50 AC at level 20, which made you balanced with a 18/2 build, it would be horrible design. The level 20 ability would be way more powerful than it should be and it would be unfair for level 19 paladins. Sure, level 19 paladins should be less powerful than level 20 paladins, but not by +50 Ac.

This is the same, but without something as blatant as +50 AC.

Most of life isn't fair so why should this game be?
I'd bet it has to do with the fact that this is a game, not RL.

[Borror0]

Apparently, I'm not the only one who does not see how you can reduce the impact on the 2 lvl. dip without negating its utility and still promoting the taking of a class to lvl 16 (or 20).
It's pretty easy. Remember the nerf to Dwarven Toughness? Still powerful, is it? Still plenty of reasons to roll a dwarf, is it? Did they tone it down?

Toning down is not a synonym of "Render useless".

Spreading abilities out still does not address the fact that, without a nice level 20 ability, there is almost no reason to not multiclass for at least 1 level.
True, but A_D is not NOT against the idea of a capstone. He is against the idea of an overpowered capstone to make up for the front-loaded design.

For others that will come earlier.
Impossible. PrE.

[SaisMatters]

Where do the makers of D&D say that the lack of capstones is a bug in the D&D rules... This sounds made up.

To Borro - they should follow the rules of D&D not create their own rule set. That is far more important than perserving purity..

Madstone, you've obviously never played a d+d game in your life! There always has been and always will be, benefits in playing pure classes over multi classes. Its like whining as a cleric you don't get level 8 spells cause you took 2 levels of something else! In most additions and games your can't even multi class a paladin. What did you think would happen if they came out with a holy avenger? Do you honestly believe multi class Paladins would /should be able to wield it??
Bottom line, you CHOOSE to multi class your Paladin! Suck it up sunshine and stop whining!

[EinarMal]

Madstone, you've obviously never played a d+d game in your life! There always has been and always will be, benefits in playing pure classes over multi classes. Its like whining as a cleric you don't get level 8 spells cause you took 2 levels of something else! In most additions and games your can't even multi class a paladin. What did you think would happen if they came out with a holy avenger? Do you honestly believe multi class Paladins would /should be able to wield it??
Bottom line, you CHOOSE to multi class your Paladin! Suck it up sunshine and stop whining!

The difference is in PnP the rules are known up front, and you plan accordingly. There are no sure things in this game, including pure class builds (which are often much weaker for many months). Honestly to say that full BAB classes in PnP are better than multi-classed makes me really question whether you have ever played 3.5 D&D.

This game is based on 3.5 rules, and you can multi-class a Paladin in those rules end of story.

There is nothing that prohibits a Paladin with other class levels from having a holy avenger sword.

D20 SRD

Holy Avenger This +2 cold iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#ironCold) longsword becomes a +5 holy cold iron longsword in the hands of a paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm).
It provides spell resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance) of 5 + the paladin’s level to the wielder and anyone adjacent to her. It also enables the wielder to use greater dispel magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagicGreater.htm) (once per round as a standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions)) at the class level of the paladin. (Only the area dispel is possible, not the targeted dispel or counterspell versions of greater dispel magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagicGreater.htm).)
Strong abjuration; CL 18th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), holy aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holyAura.htm), creator must be good; Price 120,630 gp; Cost 60,630 gp + 4,800 XP.

[Yaga_Nub]

.....

I'd bet it has to do with the fact that this is a game, not RL.

Games aren't fair either.

With the current rules in the NFL do you know how much of an advantage that a wide receiver has over a corner back? Refs throw the PI flag way to often but they are just following the rules.

[moorewr]

Games aren't fair either.

With the current rules in the NFL do you know how much of an advantage that a wide receiver has over a corner back? Refs throw the PI flag way to often but they are just following the rules.

Each team gains the same advantage for their WR. A better analogy would be a golf tournament where some players are allowed to tackle other players while they were shooting, and some were not.

[EinarMal]

Each team gains the same advantage for their WR. A better analogy would be a golf tournament where some players are allowed to tackle other players while they were shooting, and some were not.

Now that would be golf worth watching....

[SaisMatters]

The difference is in PnP the rules are known up front, and you plan accordingly. There are no sure things in this game, including pure class builds (which are often much weaker for many months). Honestly to say that full BAB classes in PnP are better than multi-classed makes me really question whether you have ever played 3.5 D&D.

This game is based on 3.5 rules, and you can multi-class a Paladin in those rules end of story.

There is nothing that prohibits a Paladin with other class levels from having a holy avenger sword.

D20 SRD

Holy Avenger This +2 cold iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#ironCold) longsword becomes a +5 holy cold iron longsword in the hands of a paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm).
It provides spell resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance) of 5 + the paladin’s level to the wielder and anyone adjacent to her. It also enables the wielder to use greater dispel magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagicGreater.htm) (once per round as a standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions)) at the class level of the paladin. (Only the area dispel is possible, not the targeted dispel or counterspell versions of greater dispel magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagicGreater.htm).)
Strong abjuration; CL 18th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftMagicArmsAndArmor), holy aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holyAura.htm), creator must be good; Price 120,630 gp; Cost 60,630 gp + 4,800 XP.

Hence the term MOST EDITIONS!!! Glad you can read. I've played EVERY edition. If you think an online game, which by its very nature, is ever changing, isnt going to change, your nuts! If you don't like change, and you must know everything up front, by a boxed game! Not to mention if you've played ddo for more than a year, you'd know they add and take away things for classes all the time, such as when they changed the action point system, added evasion to rangers( which all the rangers with 2 levels of rogue whined about), etc. There's always benefits and negative's to multi-classing AND going pure!! Bottom line, how you build your character is still YOUR choice, don't whine about the results.

[EinarMal]

Hence the term MOST EDITIONS!!! Glad you can read. If you think an online game, which by its very nature, is ever changing, isnt ging to change, your nuts! If you don't like change, and you must know everything up front, by a boxed game!

Who the hell cares about most editions, this game is 3.5 based. You can save the insults as well I read your post.

[bobbryan2]

Hence the term MOST EDITIONS!!! Glad you can read. I've played EVERY edition. If you think an online game, which by its very nature, is ever changing, isnt going to change, your nuts! If you don't like change, and you must know everything up front, by a boxed game! Not to mention if you've played ddo for more than a year, you'd know they add and take away things for classes all the time, such as when they changed the action point system, added evasion to rangers( which all the rangers with 2 levels of rogue whined about), etc. There's always benefits and negative's to multi-classing AND going pure!! Bottom line, how you build your character is still YOUR choice, don't whine about the results.

That's nice... make a point. And when it's refuted, pretend you weren't making that point, and make a completely different one.

[SaisMatters]

First of all, there are no rules in pnp d+d. There are only guidelines, to be used as the DM/GM wishes or doesn't wish! It says that at the beginning of every single editions DM's GUIDE. So don't give any static about planning for the future and such, cause you have no idea what the DM is going to do or change, and he can do as he wishes. Its his/her game. In this case DDO is the g/m, so they can do whatever they wish.
Second, if you think I insulted you, your problem, I didn't.
Third, The original point was never about the Avenger, it was about multiclassing.

[muffinlad]

You know that is true there were checks in place. A better solution to nerfing splash classes would be some kind of penalty for not following favored class rules for multi-classing.

Give players a -10% run speed permanent de-buff if they don't follow the rules rather than the xp penalty (which wouldn't really work). Or something else along those lines.

I would much rather have that system then one where you are essentially re-writing the rules.

To apply penalties like this would create an uproar, and mass player discontent.

For the most part, it seems the discontent on the balance of multi-classing exsists on the Forums, and not in the game.

It is better to reward behavior A, than punish behavior B. So perhaps your idea could be translated to - Gain a +10% movement speed bonus if you are pure class.

I still dislike the idea, but a bonus for a behavior is better than a punishment, especially when that behavior was allowed from the onset of the game (DDO).

- That being said, without a major rewrite of the game, and a change on a part of a wide swath of the player basis, most of the changes being suggested regarding how to reward pure class players are simply not going to be implemented. Too costly, not enough players care enough to quit the game if it is not done, and not enough people would fail to play DDO because it is available.

Capstones are a reasonable advantage, and wont degrade those who multi-class.

muffinclass

[Angelus_dead]

Capstones are a reasonable advantage, and wont degrade those who multi-class.
Capstones do degrade multiclassers. They especially degrade non-splash multiclassers.

[Asherons_Chosen]

Capstones do degrade multiclassers. They especially degrade non-splash multiclassers.

Disagree.

How does a capstone "Degrade" a multilclasser?

Lets see. I took 6 levels of ranger and 10 levels of barbarian... currently, I don't get crit rage 2. I knew that when I took my 6 levels of ranger.

I build a pally with 2 levels of rogue and 2 levels of ranger. Well now I get evasion, free TWF feat but I miss out on the capstone. Hell you missed out on it anyway... and you cant take rogue enhancements that require anything more than 2 levels of rogue and you can't take ranger enhancements that require more than 2 levels of ranger... and you can't cast ram's might cuz you don't have the spell b/c your not 4 levels of ranger.

Not an attack on you AD; it is a response to all the posts on how updates gimp characters created for a purpose that they already meet. I don't understand how each of the capstone or Pre thing posted by the dev's ruins any build, or gimps those who multiclass. If you multiclassed you did it for a reason, if your character still does those things you intended for him to do when you chose to multiclass him, how is a change to something else going to stop him from doing that which he was intended for?

[Angelus_dead]

How does a capstone "Degrade" a multilclasser?
Do the words "proxy nerf" ring a bell?

[Asherons_Chosen]

Do the words "proxy nerf" ring a bell?

IMO its just a different set of benefits. Since this is the pally thread I'll go w/ a lv 20 pally doesn't get evasion. A level 20 pally doesn't get monk ac boost. A lv20 pally can't open locks, can't rage, doesn't get a 10% boost to attack speed, sneak attack, etc. He gets the benefit of being a lv 20 pally, some extra damage numbers on the end of his initial attack. That is his trade off for going 20 levels of pally instead of 18/pally 2 rogue/monk or 12/6/2 pally ranger monk.

[Eladrin]

Thank you for the extensive feedback on this enhancement. As with all of the previews, there may be some changes made as time goes on... With the "Weapons of Good" enhancement, there have been several potential issues raised, from the thematic ("Paladins excel at killing non-evil dudes!") to the ironic ("Weapons of Good doesn't actually make your weapon 'Good'. LOL!"), and this capstone's actually through a few iterations already.

On our internal servers we're currently experimenting with:

Paladin Weapons of Good
Prereq: Level 20 Paladin
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction, deal 1d6 additional holy damage against all evil opponents and an additional 2d6 light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders.

It may still go through some changes, but I wanted to keep people updated with what's going on.

[Ustice]

Eladrin, this post does my heart good. Thanks for updating us. It's nice to see proof that this is a two-way street! I appreciate it.

[elraido]

Thank you for the extensive feedback on this enhancement. As with all of the previews, there may be some changes made as time goes on... With the "Weapons of Good" enhancement, there have been several potential issues raised, from the thematic ("Paladins excel at killing non-evil dudes!") to the ironic ("Weapons of Good doesn't actually make your weapon 'Good'. LOL!"), and this capstone's actually through a few iterations already.

On our internal servers we're currently experimenting with:

Paladin Weapons of Good
Prereq: Level 20 Paladin
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction, deal 1d6 additional holy damage against all evil opponents and an additional 2d6 light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders.

It may still go through some changes, but I wanted to keep people updated with what's going on.

Not as excited but still nice.

[GhostNull]

Paladin Weapons of Good
Prereq: Level 20 Paladin
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction, deal 1d6 additional holy damage against all evil opponents and an additional 2d6 light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders.

It may still go through some changes, but I wanted to keep people updated with what's going on.

Is the "light" damage going to stack with Divine Sacrifice? I remember that was a problem when DS first came out. The "Holy" part didn't stack with a weapon that had Holy on it, thus DS was changed to do Light damage.