What to splash with otherwise pure monk?

[feynman]

I have a 16 monk that I was keeping pure for the capstone, but then we found out what it is, and so I will be splashing when the cap goes up; with only 4 levels, max, to add, ranger is not as attractive as it would be if I had known what was going to happen at level 14 (or 10, or 1), so what should it be?

Note to devs: An alignment change mechanism would be really nice; go monk/barbarians!

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Level 20 monk gets DR 10/epic. Something to consider before splashing - far far better than the capstone, and you don't even have to use action points :)

But in answer to your original question: many people go Rogue for the UMD/intimidate skills.

Garth

[Angelus_dead]

I have a 16 monk that I was keeping pure for the capstone, but then we found out what it is, and so I will be splashing when the cap goes up
Sure you don't want DR 10? That's kinda cool, even though level 20 mobs will do a lot more than 10 damage. Monk20 also means +2 unarmed damage.

Anyway, for classes to splash:
Rogue1 or Fighter1 gets you Intimidate, which might be good depending on your style. Rogue provides more skillpoints, helping you raise it higher.
Rogue1 gets you UMD.
Rogue1 gets you Sneak Attack.
Rogue1 or Fighter1 gets you Haste Boost.
Fighter1 gets you +1 feat.
Ranger1 gets you better saves.
Ranger1 gets you a damage bonus against one kind of monster (which only makes sense for kama)
Paladin1-3 gets you AC/save aura, cha saves, and fear immune. (Might not work with your low cha)


Note to devs: An alignment change mechanism would be really nice; go monk/barbarians!
A barbarian who turns lawful can't rage.
A monk who turns nonlawful can't... anything.

[Wizzly_Bear]

also you lose some skill on level dependent monk abilities such as stunning fist, your SR, etc.

[Aspenor]

If DR 10/epic isn't enough to make you want Monk20, I'm not sure what you can splash in and still be satisfied. No class will offer your character enough bang for the buck to beat that.

[feynman]

Level 20 monk gets DR 10/epic. Something to consider before splashing - far far better than the capstone, and you don't even have to use action points :)
OK, now I just want to reroll; other than abundant step, everything after level 1 sucks.



But in answer to your original question: many people go Rogue for the UMD/intimidate skills.

Garth
D'oh! And I dumped int and cha.

[Wizzly_Bear]

OK, now I just want to reroll; other than abundant step, everything after level 1 sucks.
30 sr, poison immunity, disease immunity, 10dr, self healing suck?

[feynman]

also you lose some skill on level dependent monk abilities such as stunning fist, your SR, etc.
Yea, but who uses those? The 4 points of SR is pretty minor at that point, and the other abilities are weak tea. I was thinking some cleric or pally levels for spell usage, or fighter for the feats. Ranger would have been nice if I could have gotten 6 levels of it, but if I have to reroll, I'm only taking 1 level of monk.

[feynman]

30 sr, poison immunity, disease immunity, 10dr, self healing suck?
Kinda, yea; the immunities are some of the most prevalent around, the SR is nice, but it can be matched by the cleric spell (or gotten close to with items), 10 DR is a joke at 16, much less 20, and I don't even use the self-healing now, since potions are much better.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Kinda, yea; the immunities are some of the most prevalent around, the SR is nice, but it can be matched by the cleric spell (or gotten close to with items), 10 DR is a joke at 16, much less 20, and I don't even use the self-healing now, since potions are much better.
cleric spell can be dispelled, and not having to wear items for the immunities gives you more room for other things.

and if your pots are healing you better than your ki, something is amiss.

[feynman]

cleric spell can be dispelled, and not having to wear items for the immunities gives you more room for other things.
Except that I'm wearing the items, anyway, because they come with other things (deathblock greensteel, etc)



and if your pots are healing you better than your ki, something is amiss.
If by "better" you mean "the pot heals more HP," then no; but if you mean "is capable of healing a reasonable number of HP in any circumstance other than immediately after a major fight," then the pots win.

Generally, I use Ki healing once or twice, then fill up my HP with pots. If I try to Ki heal them all, the rest of the group will finish the quest while I do so, assuming that I have enough Ki to heal all the way, at all.

What can I say? I'm not impressed.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Except that I'm wearing the items, anyway, because they come with other things (deathblock greensteel, etc)


If by "better" you mean "the pot heals more HP," then no; but if you mean "is capable of healing a reasonable number of HP in any circumstance other than immediately after a major fight," then the pots win.

Generally, I use Ki healing once or twice, then fill up my HP with pots. If I try to Ki heal them all, the rest of the group will finish the quest while I do so, assuming that I have enough Ki to heal all the way, at all.

What can I say? I'm not impressed.
generally you smack your enemy with positive strike and you regenerate while fighting them. if you have a respectable ac youre not taking much damage = shouldnt need to heal much between fights.

[Timjc86]

I am actually really excited about the monk capstone. I won't have to sit in a tavern and meditate before being able to Abundant Step some more. I'm half joking, but I'm an even bigger half completely serious.

If you were starting at level 1, I could understand splashing 1-4 rogue levels; I guess you could still get a decent UMD if you took the next 4 rogue levels and got an int tome. But really, I would still stay pure monk. If you've already committed 16 levels, I don't see any benefits from splashing now that would outweigh maxing out your monk stuff, such as AC, unarmed damage die, SR, etc.

You can make any one of those benefits seems inconsequential by viewing it by itself or incrementally, but when you put them all together from levels 1-20 they really make a meaningful difference. The immunities and SR alone save you 2-3 equipment slots that you can use for other/better things; sure you can make a GS immunity item, but it still costs ingredients and it still takes up a slot.

It's your character, so definitely do what you see as best, but I still think maxing out monk benefits would significantly outweigh any possible splash you could come up with at this point.

We also haven't heard much about monk PrEs. If you splash more than two non-monk levels you might be kicking yourself in mods to come.

[feynman]

generally you smack your enemy with positive strike and you regenerate while fighting them. if you have a respectable ac youre not taking much damage = shouldnt need to heal much between fights.
Which works against bosses, but everything else dies too quickly for that to be effective. It's the healing needed after vorpaling a dozen devils that is the problem.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Which works against bosses, but everything else dies too quickly for that to be effective. It's the healing needed after vorpaling a dozen devils that is the problem.
boost your ac some more. and bring a cleric to toss a heal or two.

[Borror0]

I'd splash some GTWF into your monk.


Note to devs: An alignment change mechanism would be really nice; go monk/barbarians!
An alignment respec shouldn't allow that.

[Aspenor]

I'd splash some GTWF into your monk.

:snicker:

[Wizzly_Bear]

I'd splash some GTWF into your monk.
didnt even think about him not having that. feyn...whats your build?

[Timjc86]

didnt even think about him not having that. feyn...whats your build?

Oh dear.... *ducks for cover*

[Borror0]

Oh dear.... *ducks for cover*
Good idea.

[Hasteclicky]

I think your right, you should definitely reroll. If after 16 levels you don't see what a full monk can do that is probably your best bet.

[feynman]

didnt even think about him not having that. feyn...whats your build?

http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u355/badmojomagic/I_HAVE_GTWF.jpg

Stats: (unstanced)

STR 28
DEX 27
CON 18
INT 8
WIS 26
CHA 9

Buffed AC is mid-60's (icy, +7 bracers, no insight or chattering ring yet).

I know what good monks can do; I was one of the first capped monks on Khyber. I was a regular on shroud runs when nobody wanted monks in their groups, because I had proved myself. I know monks, I have healed them, hasted them, and fought next to them, and I can say without a doubt that if they removed abundant step, the class would be the worst in the game.

For comparison, I have a 28-point halfling fighter/ranger/rogue that is so much incredibly better at everything except the long jump that it's not even funny, plus has rogue skills, wand usage, UMD, more HP, more DPS, almost as much AC without icy raiment or dragon robes.

Don't get me wrong, it's fun to play, I was just imagining that the higher-level abilities would make up for the deficiencies, and they simply do not. Honestly, I don't see any reason to have any pure class, anymore.

[Inspire]

I have a 16 monk that I was keeping pure for the capstone, but then we found out what it is, and so I will be splashing when the cap goes up

The Capstone is going to make Monks one of the most powerful solo classes in the game.

Even without the capstone Eladrin tols us what we get from levels 17-20 as a Monk, Id suggest you take a look at those before you decide on what your going to splash and how many levels aswell, for example; DR 10/Epic at 20.

[rimble]

The Capstone is going to make Monks one of the most powerful solo classes in the game.

Not that I think it's useless...and not that I hate my Monk...but what sort of revolutionary soloing changes are you expecting from +10 Concentration and +1 Ki regen? It seems soloing is already when I have the most Ki because I have to hit everything myself, rather than in a group where things may be dying too quickly sometimes.

No sarcasm at all, I'm seriously curious.

[Mhykke]

Not that I think it's useless...and not that I hate my Monk...but what sort of revolutionary soloing changes are you expecting from +10 Concentration and +1 Ki regen? It seems soloing is already when I have the most Ki because I have to hit everything myself, rather than in a group where things may be dying too quickly sometimes.

No sarcasm at all, I'm seriously curious.

I'd guess having a base concentration score high enough to hit wholeness of body when you'd like, and the ability to regenerate ki to go back up to that base concentration score without having to meditate or hit anything. Factor in a high AC and the ability to get a little health back in a fight w/ fists of light, it'll be nice. Not necessarily saying it'd be the fastest solo class. But the ability to heal oneself without expending mana is pretty nice.

[feynman]

I'd guess having a base concentration score high enough to hit wholeness of body when you'd like, and the ability to regenerate ki to go back up to that base concentration score without having to meditate or hit anything. Factor in a high AC and the ability to get a little health back in a fight w/ fists of light, it'll be nice. Not necessarily saying it'd be the fastest solo class. But the ability to heal oneself without expending mana is pretty nice.

I would almost agree with you, if money were not so abundant that carrying 5 stacks of CSW pots is economical. For that matter, hireling clerics are even cheaper! A better example might be quests that require the group to separate, but even then, wands, pots, candy canes, cakes, scrolls, clickies, and dragonmarks are possible alternatives to finding a quiet spot to stare blankly at your screen while your little red bar fills up.

[Timjc86]

Don't get me wrong, it's fun to play, I was just imagining that the higher-level abilities would make up for the deficiencies, and they simply do not. Honestly, I don't see any reason to have any pure class, anymore.

If this is the case, I would not take any more than two monk levels, solely for evasion and the feats. If the monk abilities at cap are not appealing to you, then I see no reason to settle for weaker versions - just avoid monk levels altogether or don't take so many (more than two) that the character's efficacy depends on monk stuff.

Since you've already got a 16 monk, I would still suggest taking it to cap or leaving it shelved for now, just in case they make some changes. I love my monk but I would hate to have to level up another one. And I don't think 4 splash levels will be enough to rectify the deficiencies you see.

The TWF+Unarmed change was a very big step in the right direction to making monks more competitive in end game groups and raids, but having no means of getting transmuting unarmed attacks is still a deal-breaker. Greensteel weave handwraps would go a long way to fixing that.

[Mhykke]

I would almost agree with you, if money were not so abundant that carrying 5 stacks of CSW pots is economical. For that matter, hireling clerics are even cheaper! A better example might be quests that require the group to separate, but even then, wands, pots, candy canes, cakes, scrolls, clickies, and dragonmarks are possible alternatives to finding a quiet spot to stare blankly at your screen while your little red bar fills up.

Wands, pots, candy canes are hardly the same thing when you're talking about healing large chunks of health at a time. Hirelings are unreliable at best, and dragonmarks require you to be a certain race and use feats. Scrolls require a 40 umd. None of these things are the same as freely recharging wholeness of body.

[feynman]

If this is the case, I would not take any more than two monk levels, solely for evasion and the feats. If the monk abilities at cap are not appealing to you, then I see no reason to settle for weaker versions - just avoid monk levels altogether or don't take so many (more than two) that the character's efficacy depends on monk stuff.

My newer builds use 1 monk/X rogue, just for the ac bonus. If I were the type to play paladins, I might use 2 monk, but that will be the day :)



Since you've already got a 16 monk, I would still suggest taking it to cap or leaving it shelved for now, just in case they make some changes. I love my monk but I would hate to have to level up another one. And I don't think 4 splash levels will be enough to rectify the deficiencies you see.

Very much what I'm afraid of; right now, this character is a shroud farmer, and not much more, but I'm also running out of character slots.



The TWF+Unarmed change was a very big step in the right direction to making monks more competitive in end game groups and raids, but having no means of getting transmuting unarmed attacks is still a deal-breaker. Greensteel weave handwraps would go a long way to fixing that.

Absolutely, although monks are still low-HP, middling-DPS. If it weren't for stackable buffs and abundant step, though...

[nbhs275]

I have a 16 monk that I was keeping pure for the capstone, but then we found out what it is, and so I will be splashing when the cap goes up; with only 4 levels, max, to add, ranger is not as attractive as it would be if I had known what was going to happen at level 14 (or 10, or 1), so what should it be?

Note to devs: An alignment change mechanism would be really nice; go monk/barbarians!

15 levels of ranger...

[Timjc86]

Absolutely, although monks are still low-HP, middling-DPS. If it weren't for stackable buffs and abundant step, though...

I do agree with you about Abundant Step. Aside from its actual practical uses it's just so much darn fun.

[feynman]

15 levels of ranger...

I can't see more than 12 levels of ranger, but rogue or paladin should make excellent additions.

[Timjc86]

I can't see more than 12 levels of ranger, but rogue or paladin should make excellent additions.

Tier III of Tempest (18 ranger) has the potential to be very powerful. We will just have to wait and see exactly how they implement it.

[feynman]

Tier III of Tempest (18 ranger) has the potential to be very powerful. We will just have to wait and see exactly how they implement it.

OK, so if the cap goes to 20, I could get 1 monk, 18 ranger, then 1 level of something else; paladin, maybe? For aura and whatnot. Or rogue for skills.

[Thanimal]

OK, so if the cap goes to 20, I could get 1 monk, 18 ranger, then 1 level of something else; paladin, maybe? For aura and whatnot. Or rogue for skills.

18 Ranger/1 Monk/1 Rogue... Where have I seen that before? :)

Man, I hate it when forums posters are sarcastic instead of helpful. :) So being a little more serious, that build has been hugely talked about on the forums and many believe it to be the strongest build in the game right now.

[feynman]

18 Ranger/1 Monk/1 Rogue... Where have I seen that before? :)

Man, I hate it when forums posters are sarcastic instead of helpful. :) So being a little more serious, that build has been hugely talked about on the forums and many believe it to be the strongest build in the game right now.

I've been thinking 1 monk/6 ranger/9 rogue, since it's going to be a DPS build, anyway; the extra backstab damage will be nice, not to mention having decent rogue skills.

[Lucian_Navarro]

I have found a 12th level Monk splashed with a 4th level Monk works very well.

[rimble]

I have found a 12th level Monk splashed with a 4th level Monk works very well.

Interesting. What order did you take the levels, and why?

[feynman]

I have found a 12th level Monk splashed with a 4th level Monk works very well.

Quick recap:

8 fighter/6 ranger/2 rogue 28-point halfling vs. 16 monk 32-point elf, monk has better gear
~420HP vs ~350HP
44-67 AC (unbuffed-buffed) vs 45-64 AC
Mid-high DPS vs High-mid DPS
Rogue skills vs Abundant step
Intimidate vs Fire buff
Whirlwind attack vs Ki healing

Yes, they both need better gear, but the monk has icy raiment, munchkin does not, and the halfling is still twice as good.