Required feats???

[redoubt]

My sorc is my second oldest character. He is a drow with 36 CHA and a hodge podge of other stats.

For feats he has: Maximize, Heighten, Spell Pen, SF: Enchantment, GSF: Enchantment, SF: Illusion

For enhancements he has: spell pen 3, fire 4, fire crit 2, other fire crit 2 and other assorted stuff I can't remember off the top of my head.

He is at 2055sp and can last between most shrines okay. He is a little fragile and low on HP but I have a plan to get him up to 250.

There are two things that I have seen lately that make me wonder... one is the increased requests for greater heroism (which I only have on scrolls) and I've also been told that I MUST have extend to go with my haste spell.

It is usually only a complaint from people who won't wait for my slow butt to catch up and rehaste the group, which I am happy to do.

So what do you all think? (Both about my general enchanter build and the "extend requirement".)

Thanks. :D

[boldarblood]

Extend, Heighten, Empower, Maximize, Spell Pen 1, Spell Pen 2. Also be sure to max out your Spell Pen Enhancements.

[greystone306]

My sorc is my second oldest character. He is a drow with 36 CHA and a hodge podge of other stats.

For feats he has: Maximize, Heighten, Spell Pen, SF: Enchantment, GSF: Enchantment, SF: Illusion

For enhancements he has: spell pen 3, fire 4, fire crit 2, other fire crit 2 and other assorted stuff I can't remember off the top of my head.

He is at 2055sp and can last between most shrines okay. He is a little fragile and low on HP but I have a plan to get him up to 250.

There are two things that I have seen lately that make me wonder... one is the increased requests for greater heroism (which I only have on scrolls) and I've also been told that I MUST have extend to go with my haste spell.

It is usually only a complaint from people who won't wait for my slow butt to catch up and rehaste the group, which I am happy to do.

So what do you all think? (Both about my general enchanter build and the "extend requirement".)

Thanks. :D

There are no Must's for any class. If a player in a group tries to say you must have this feat or whatever, wish them well and say go find somebody who fits your mold to replace you in the group.. but that's just my opinion..Build what you like and if others have a problem with it tough luck to them.. Sorcerers are do not have to be haste bots and should not be considered such..

[Irongutz2000]

I would drop SF illusion an either take extend or empower. IMHO


P.S. I think that both of the feats in enchanment focus is a little over kill, i use charms alot, i mean alot an hardly ever have a problem landing them without any of the feats. Hope this helps.

[Noctus]

Extended haste is very nice, but it´s not a "better have it or leave". Just nice to have.

No Greater Heroism on the other hand is a big downer. Allmost all expect the group´s arcane caster to have this spell, because it is incredibly good.


Having GH or not reminds me of the discussions of old on "Why should my Sorc carry Haste if you can also just chug potions?"


For example i have seen a Hound-Raid fail because non of the 2 Sorcerers who were in the group had GH. Too many people got feared at the same time --> clerics + the bard got overstrained --> puppies died --> fail.

When asked why they didnt carry it one dropped group and the other just said: "Why should i carry it if you can just get yourself a Planar Gird. I have one."

[Aranticus]

Extended haste is very nice, but it´s not a "better have it or leave". Just nice to have.

No Greater Heroism on the other hand is a big downer. Allmost all expect the group´s arcane caster to have this spell, because it is incredibly good.


Having GH or not reminds me of the discussions of old on "Why should my Sorc carry Haste if you can also just chug potions?"


For example i have seen a Hound-Raid fail because non of the 2 Sorcerers who were in the group had GH. Too many people got feared at the same time --> clerics + the bard got overstrained --> puppies died --> fail.

When asked why they didnt carry it one dropped group and the other just said: "Why should i carry it if you can just get yourself a Planar Gird. I have one."

most bards have GH as a spell, this is not a failure on the sorc part alone

[Noctus]

most bards have GH as a spell, this is not a failure on the sorc part alone

Warchanter: Bard 12 , 2 Rogue , 2 Fighter --> no level 5 spells.

[Samadhi]

For extend, I pretty much live by it, and highly recommend it even if you only use it for haste ever.

GH is readily available in scrolls and - unless the mobs are casting fear in some fashion - not really necessary anyway. I definitely do not carry it as a spell.

I also don't think the spell focuses - any of them - are that good for a feat starved sorc; but that is more personal opinion the the above.

[Oreg]

Agreed with Samadhi. GH is not a spell I carry but I do carry scrolls for those who don't have girds and i'm more than happy to use them on folks. Extend I only use for haste, rage and fire/cold shield. IMO it is invaluable for those 3 things. I buff with extend off then turn it on for those 3.

[sephiroth1084]

What do you carry in place of GH?

[Samadhi]

What do you carry in place of GH?

Flesh to Stone, Mass Suggestion, Disintegrate.

Was considering flopping FTS for Acid Fog; but it's useful again

[redoubt]

What do you carry in place of GH?

Flesh to stone - seems a must in things like the TOR and Prey.

Acid Fog - No room for solid fog and it does some damage... most likely one to swap

Disintigrate

and... oh wait... we only get three... :(

P.S. all of my melees hit just fine without it (GH). I wonder, are people making builds that rely on GH to hit? Or is that fighter wanting it to umd a scroll? Seriously, I don't mind giving it to a rogue who is actually going to break out a scroll. Or if we are going to be somewhere that "fear" is being spammed, I'll spend the pp.

[Dktr]

For extend, I pretty much live by it, and highly recommend it even if you only use it for haste ever.

GH is readily available in scrolls and - unless the mobs are casting fear in some fashion - not really necessary anyway. I definitely do not carry it as a spell.

I also don't think the spell focuses - any of them - are that good for a feat starved sorc; but that is more personal opinion the the above.

I could not disagree more with not carrying Greater Hero for the simple fact that GH adds +4 to your use magic device skill. GH is the single spell that I cast the most often (more often than haste, and I'm casting it on myself). Being that umd is nearly a class skill for sorcerers, you can spec your sorcerer to be a back-up cleric.

I would also drop empower for skill focus use magic device. Things die very quickly in my firewalls using only maximize.. turning on both maximize and empower just makes me burn through my spell points faster.. hardly worth it to make a mob die one millisecond sooner...

Getting your umd skill to 39/40 would allow you to use a heal scroll on 1.. even if you're wf and do not need heal scrolls for yourself .. being able to heal your fellow party members can be highly useful in raids- especially when the clerics run out of mana or the clerics go down..... I have saved many groups from near partywipes.... UMD ftw!! 8)

[juniorpfactors]

Extended haste is very nice, but it´s not a "better have it or leave". Just nice to have.

No Greater Heroism on the other hand is a big downer. Allmost all expect the group´s arcane caster to have this spell, because it is incredibly good.


Having GH or not reminds me of the discussions of old on "Why should my Sorc carry Haste if you can also just chug potions?"


For example i have seen a Hound-Raid fail because non of the 2 Sorcerers who were in the group had GH. Too many people got feared at the same time --> clerics + the bard got overstrained --> puppies died --> fail.

When asked why they didnt carry it one dropped group and the other just said: "Why should i carry it if you can just get yourself a Planar Gird. I have one."


bad gimped toons , every toon at level 16 should have their own planar gird if not 2, and should have crafted gs fear immunity poison item, but yes I carry GH, if your really in a frenzy of GH go farm 3 or 4 planar girds and buff those beggars off those

SF: Enchantment, GSF: Enchantment, SF: Illusion DUMP these imho, Empower (must) extend, Necromancy :) if your human fit in UMD to hit 39-40 for Heal scrolls and Greater Restorations

jrp

[rimble]

My sorc is my second oldest character. He is a drow with 36 CHA and a hodge podge of other stats.

For feats he has: Maximize, Heighten, Spell Pen, SF: Enchantment, GSF: Enchantment, SF: Illusion

For enhancements he has: spell pen 3, fire 4, fire crit 2, other fire crit 2 and other assorted stuff I can't remember off the top of my head.

He is at 2055sp and can last between most shrines okay. He is a little fragile and low on HP but I have a plan to get him up to 250.

He sounds alot like my Drow Sorc, though a little better (1700ish sp, 205ish hp, his gear stinks). Levelling mine up I really enjoyed the Enchantment school. However, there just aren't enough Feats, and I migrated away from the Spell Focuses for other things.

First, I've found I need both Maximize and Empower. Sometimes you just need to blast your way through high Fire Resistance with a Max + Emp Wall of Fire...and on the big red nameds, most of them you can get a Max + Emp crit Acid Fog to tick away for over 100hp a pop. Makes me feel like I'm contributing a little more on the new big red nameds that aren't very arcane friendly.

I've ended up with Maximize, Empower, Heighten, Extend, Spell Pen 1, and Spell Pen 2. I wouldn't change a thing there.

I do carry, use, and love Greater Heroism. As someone else mentioned, I primarily want that +4 UMD, but the other benefits are of course awesome as well. I do miss Disintegrate sometimes (I carry Acid Fog, FtS, and GH) but such is the life of a Sorcerer.

I ended up going down both the Fire/Ice Enhancement lines and the Electricity/Acid Enhancement lines. I'm constantly considering backing down on the Electricity/Acid side, but for now my Enhancements are:

Enhancement: Sorcerer Improved Empowering I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Energy I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Energy II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Energy III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Energy I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Energy II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Energy III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy Manipulation I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy Manipulation II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy Manipulation III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Enerrgy Manipulation IV
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation IV
Enhancement: Sorcerer Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma III

It's a weird Enhancement layout, I doubt most people would recommend it, but it works for me.

[miceelf88]

GH is very useful if you pug a lot or (say) have a group that doesn't twink or farm (one of my characters is in such a group) much. Honestly, the most frequent reguest I get for GH isn't from melees but from rogues who need a little boost to search or disable.

[Winded]

Ive always bleieved having Sell pent/Gtr Spell Pen was a great benefit, but after some testing in the vale , I really cant support needing it. The highest Spell pen mob in the vale(explorer area) is the Devil over by the Coal Chamber , 26. and yes Ive been out there that much to know. Most are in the 22-24 range. With Spell Pen feat and 2 enhancement with pen item, Im rolling 23.

Anyone convince me that Gtr Spell Pen is actual worth it?

[rimble]

Anyone convince me that Gtr Spell Pen is actual worth it?

Instead of...?

Run actual quests, Spell Resistances get higher than 26. If you don't run the end-game stuff, then yeah, don't bother with it. I haven't analyzed my logs in quests to figure out SR, but I still see that blue shield more than I'd like.

[~Bandage]

IMO, any buffs from a sorcerer are bonus, not required. Sorcerers have too few spell slots, and since it's a pain to swap, you want to cover all of your offenseive options first, then worry about buffs.

*Note: assuming your sorcerer, like most, is an offensive caster

Extend is a pure convenience feat. All it does is double the time before you need to cast the same spell again. Very nice, but I wouldn't call it a requirement.

If I had to recommend a spell of yours to drop for GH, though, it'd be disintegrate. :)

[Samadhi]

Instead of...?

Run actual quests, Spell Resistances get higher than 26. If you don't run the end-game stuff, then yeah, don't bother with it. I haven't analyzed my logs in quests to figure out SR, but I still see that blue shield more than I'd like.

Exactly, of course if you are running around an encounter area the mobs are chumps, but the SR goes up quickly inside end game.

[Samadhi]

I could not disagree more with not carrying Greater Hero for the simple fact that GH adds +4 to your use magic device skill. GH is the single spell that I cast the most often (more often than haste, and I'm casting it on myself).

It is also one of the single easiest spells to carry on a scroll.

Scroll of GH - 11 minutes of GH
Scroll of Disintegrate/FTS/anything offensive - about worthless

Seems like a pretty simple decision to me.

[Fennario]

Maximize
Empower
Heighten
Extend
Spell Pen
Greater Spell Pen

If human add in whatever: SF:UMD, FoP, SF:X, Toughness, etc.

[Dktr]

It is also one of the single easiest spells to carry on a scroll.

Scroll of GH - 11 minutes of GH
Scroll of Disintegrate/FTS/anything offensive - about worthless

Seems like a pretty simple decision to me.

When I kept Greater Hero on a scroll, my sorcerer was more expensive to play than my cleric. Acid Fog and Disintegrate are purely situational spells. My sorc does carry disintegrate, but he only needs to use it on red/purple names, and for red/purple polar ray works better. In the new content, everything saves against disintegrate.

My Sorc has for feats: Maximize, Extend, Spell Pen, Greater Spell Pen, Heighten, Skill focus: Use Magic Device.

For Spells My sorc carries:

Level 1:
Magic Missile, Jump, Tumble, Hypnotize

Level 2:

Resist Energy, Scorching Ray, Knock, Web

Level 3
Suggestion, Haste, Displacement, Protection from Energy

Level 4:
Firewall, Ennervate, Dimension Door, Solid Fog

Level 5
Cone of Cold, Teleport, Dismissal, Cloudkill

Level 6
Greater Hero, Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone

Level 7
Finger of Death, Discoball

Level 8
Polar Ray

I have never been in a situation where I do not have the right spell for the right occasion. I may not have the exact spell, but I can mimic the effect with the other spells on my list. I can solo just about everything. If you miss Acid fog, try using solid fog + cloudkill. If you miss mass suggestion, try suggestion and cast it twice. If you miss pk, use ennervate as your 1,2 with fod. My umd =40. My sorc is my favorite toon to play.

[Tyrande]

When I kept Greater Hero on a scroll, my sorcerer was more expensive to play than my cleric. Acid Fog and Disintegrate are purely situational spells. My sorc does carry disintegrate, but he only needs to use it on red/purple names, and for red/purple polar ray works better. In the new content, everything saves against disintegrate.

My Sorc has for feats: Maximize, Extend, Spell Pen, Greater Spell Pen, Heighten, Skill focus: Use Magic Device.

For Spells My sorc carries:

Level 1:
Magic Missile, Jump, Tumble, Hypnotize

Level 2:

Resist Energy, Scorching Ray, Knock, Web

Level 3
Suggestion, Haste, Displacement, Protection from Energy

Level 4:
Firewall, Ennervate, Dimension Door, Solid Fog

Level 5
Cone of Cold, Teleport, Dismissal, Cloudkill

Level 6
Greater Hero, Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone

Level 7
Finger of Death, Discoball

Level 8
Polar Ray

I have never been in a situation where I do not have the right spell for the right occasion. I may not have the exact spell, but I can mimic the effect with the other spells on my list. I can solo just about everything. If you miss Acid fog, try using solid fog + cloudkill. If you miss mass suggestion, try suggestion and cast it twice. If you miss pk, use ennervate as your 1,2 with fod. My umd =40. My sorc is my favorite toon to play.

I sort of remember a quest in Necropolis & Prey of the Hunter that requires the spell: "Fireball".

[juniorpfactors]

I sort of remember a quest in Necropolis & Prey of the Hunter that requires the spell: "Fireball".

there is no quest that requires fireball... sorry

jrp

[Oreg]

When I kept Greater Hero on a scroll, my sorcerer was more expensive to play than my cleric. .

I don't find that to be the case. I use maybe 10 scrolls a month. Most people have girds and if not many groups have a bard or wiz with it.

Acid Fog
Disintegrate
FtS

are my level 6s.

[redoubt]

bad gimped toons , every toon at level 16 should have their own planar gird if not 2, and should have crafted gs fear immunity poison item, but yes I carry GH, if your really in a frenzy of GH go farm 3 or 4 planar girds and buff those beggars off those

SF: Enchantment, GSF: Enchantment, SF: Illusion DUMP these imho, Empower (must) extend, Necromancy :) if your human fit in UMD to hit 39-40 for Heal scrolls and Greater Restorations

jrp

You say necromancy because of Finger of Death? If yes, I have illusion because I have PK and not FoD. With the cap increase and more level 7 spell slots I will get FOD, drop PK and swap illusion for necromancy.

[Dktr]

I don't find that to be the case. I use maybe 10 scrolls a month. Most people have girds and if not many groups have a bard or wiz with it.

Acid Fog
Disintegrate
FtS

are my level 6s.

The Greater Hero is for me... I keep it permacast on me at all times... +4 to umd while questing +4 to haggle while shopping... hands down- the single spell I cast the most often...

[tinyelvis]

As a sorcerer, it is just plain foolish to take a spell that can just as effectively be cast from a scroll. GH is certainly one of these spells. Before any important battle, (i.e. heading to battle Sorjek) it is of course a very good idea to make sure the whole party has GH or when the rogue is tasked to find the difficult traps. However, it is an unnecessary party luxury 90% of the time. Its my experience that folks whinnying for GH when it normally should not be needed are usually poorly created melee'rs. Point out to them that you can scroll cast on them before the big battle with the end boss but not continuously. There are too many good 6th level spells to waste a spot on this spell. If you do, you will only marginalize your capability and be less effective to a party in the long run.

Empower is nice to have, but it really takes a back seat to many feats. Your intuition is correct here. Using just maximize is the most efficient way to spend your mana. Furthermore, if you know that you will use all of your mana in a given battle, you will in fact do more total damage with maximize alone than with maximize and empower. Perform some basic math and prove this to yourself if need be. Don't trade any feats for empower.

Extend is another great luxury feat. However, as was stated by someone earlier you are better off taking offensive feats as you have. Enlarge, for example is far better than extend. It enables you to deal with tough encounters outside the party danger range (especially if you use non aggro spells). If terribly necessary you can always rebuff on those rare occasions where 15 minutes is not long enough.

Finally, I just want to point out that unless you run a lot of easy areas (like the vale or vale quests on normal) spell penetration and spell DC are important considerations (especially for the new content and subter). I would guess that Mod 9 will continue the trend of high spell resistance and saves for trash monsters. I would suggest 25 minimum for SP.

Finally, PK is imo a horrible spell. Monsters get SR and two saves. A very inefficient way to deal with mobs. You can finger 95% of the trash mobs in every area currently. This spell should be used instead of PK. A real pro sorcerer kill quickly and consistently with as little mana as possible. IMO that's the sorcerers job.

[Dktr]

I sort of remember a quest in Necropolis & Prey of the Hunter that requires the spell: "Fireball".

there is this other spell called firewall....

oh, and I think the quest in Necropolis you're thinking of is Inferno of the Damned.. just bring a wand of fireballs in there with you for the torches (works fine)... When I do that quest I usually bring scrolls of cone of cold as well; so, I don't have to waste my mana on those stupid torches...

[Dktr]

As a sorcerer, it is just plain foolish to take a spell that can just as effectively be cast from a scroll. GH is certainly one of these spells. Before any important battle, (i.e. heading to battle Sorjek) it is of course a very good idea to make sure the whole party has GH or when the rogue is tasked to find the difficult traps. However, it is an unnecessary party luxury 90% of the time. Its my experience that folks whinnying for GH when it normally should not be needed are usually poorly created melee'rs. Point out to them that you can scroll cast on them before the big battle with the end boss but not continuously. There are too many good 6th level spells to waste a spot on this spell. If you do, you will only marginalize your capability and be less effective to a party in the long run.

.

You're using Acid fog in place of greater hero.... How is that really any better than cloudkill + solid fog? Just throw a firewall in there if mobs are not going down fast enough....

My question for you: Why scroll at all if you don't have to? I don't carry acid fog and even better I don't carry scrolls of it... and I don't miss it...

why would you replace a spell (greater hero) that you will be casting all the time for a spell that you will only cast once in a while or could get the same effect using other spells.... For a umd sorc - greater hero is required for the build..... If you're not a umd sorc, and you're relying on the cleric to keep you standing then the least you could do is cast a 30 min greater hero on the cleric to make all those heal scrolls he's using on you just a bit cheaper... The only build I could see not needing greater hero would be a soloing warforged sorcerer that could care less about the people he pugs with (even for the soloist gh gives immunity to fear and +4 to saves- very, very handy for bloodstone runs)... Definitely a spell to keep permacasted on yourself...

oh and one more thing.. the only time I have ever missed having acid fog loaded was one occasion when a wizard put acid fog on top of a portal in the shroud. One of the barbarians complained that he couldn't see and starting yelling at the wizard and demanded that no acid fogs be placed on the portals.... On that one occasion I did want to coat the entire quest in a sea of acid fog just to make that barbarian swim through it....

[tinyelvis]

The great thing about this game is that you are welcome to waste spell points and a spell slot on GH if it makes you comfortable. The rest of us will just scroll it and/or planar girdle it.

I suggest:

Flesh to Stone
Disintegrate
Reconstruct

Other folks will take acid fog, chain lightning, Mass suggestion, Symbols and/or perhaps others. These are all better choices than wasting the spot on GH.

[Dktr]

The great thing about this game is that you are welcome to waste spell points and a spell slot on GH if it makes you comfortable. The rest of us will just scroll it and/or planar girdle it.

I suggest:

Flesh to Stone
Disintegrate
Reconstruct

Other folks will take acid fog, chain lightning, Mass suggestion, Symbols and/or perhaps others. These are all better choices than wasting the spot on GH.

I see that you carry reconstruct.... I imagine you carry reconstruct for self-healing- very good idea for a warforged caster. That is precisely why a human/drow/elf/dwarf/halfling sorcerer should carry greater hero- FOR THE SELF HEALING (hello!! umd!!)...

As to greater hero not being a good choice to keep loaded please keep in mind that:

Sorcerers are in a unique position that they have more mana than any other class. When a sorcerer suggests that a wizard pass xxx or a bard pass yyy or a cleric pass zzz, those classes are then wasting mana that could be better spent on other things.. When you make the bard pass greater hero, that bard then has less mana for crowd control and cures... When you demand the wizard pass greater hero, the wizard then has less mana for the other spells that you don't have in your arsenal.... The sorcerer has more than enough mana that he/she can freely pass buffs and not handicap their toon for the rest of the quest..... The wizards/bards/clerics are not in this position...

[redoubt]

You're using Acid fog in place of greater hero.... How is that really any better than cloudkill + solid fog? Just throw a firewall in there if mobs are not going down fast enough....

My question for you: Why scroll at all if you don't have to? I don't carry acid fog and even better I don't carry scrolls of it... and I don't miss it...

why would you replace a spell (greater hero) that you will be casting all the time for a spell that you will only cast once in a while or could get the same effect using other spells.... For a umd sorc - greater hero is required for the build..... If you're not a umd sorc, and you're relying on the cleric to keep you standing then the least you could do is cast a 30 min greater hero on the cleric to make all those heal scrolls he's using on you just a bit cheaper... The only build I could see not needing greater hero would be a soloing warforged sorcerer that could care less about the people he pugs with (even for the soloist gh gives immunity to fear and +4 to saves- very, very handy for bloodstone runs)... Definitely a spell to keep permacasted on yourself...

oh and one more thing.. the only time I have ever missed having acid fog loaded was one occasion when a wizard put acid fog on top of a portal in the shroud. One of the barbarians complained that he couldn't see and starting yelling at the wizard and demanded that no acid fogs be placed on the portals.... On that one occasion I did want to coat the entire quest in a sea of acid fog just to make that barbarian swim through it....

I don't have the spell slots for solid fog either... Many of you do not list holds or charms among your spells. Maybe that is why you seem to have so many open slots.

I used to do the Cloud Kill / Solid fog combo, but when I rearranged everything back at the TOR due to the **** immunities, I ended up dropping solid fog and worked solid fog back in as my fog spell.

Side note: a lot of the current mobs are immune to the CK con damage, so at least acid fod does a few ticks of damage.

Now, back on topic. I'm not saying GH is never needed. I agree with several here who say that they will scroll as needed. It just seems that lately people want it all the time. Kinda like being superbuffed going into part 1 of the shroud. Its not needed.

[Dktr]

What I tried to create when building my sorcerer was a toon that is self-sufficient. My sorcerer is drow; so, I have greater hero loaded because it gives +4 to umd skill allowing me to use heal scrolls. A warforged sorcerer would take reconstruct in that slot again for the self-healing. The important thing to keep in mind is build your toon in way that is fun for you. Sixth level spell slots as well as fourth level spell slots are precious mainly because there are so many useful spells in each slot.

[juniorpfactors]

I don't have the spell slots for solid fog either... Many of you do not list holds or charms among your spells. Maybe that is why you seem to have so many open slots.

I used to do the Cloud Kill / Solid fog combo, but when I rearranged everything back at the TOR due to the **** immunities, I ended up dropping solid fog and worked solid fog back in as my fog spell.

Side note: a lot of the current mobs are immune to the CK con damage, so at least acid fod does a few ticks of damage.

Now, back on topic. I'm not saying GH is never needed. I agree with several here who say that they will scroll as needed. It just seems that lately people want it all the time. Kinda like being superbuffed going into part 1 of the shroud. Its not needed.


correct, but people are irrational, and there are plenty of gimps who expect it ;)

jrp

[tinyelvis]

I see that you carry reconstruct.... I imagine you carry reconstruct for self-healing- very good idea for a warforged caster. That is precisely why a human/drow/elf/dwarf/halfling sorcerer should carry greater hero- FOR THE SELF HEALING (hello!! umd!!)...


I suggest carrying reconstruct as a way to broaden your versatility. You harp on healing yet fail to see the benefit in potentially healing all. One can spell cast this much faster than scroll and heal much much more WF damage.

Concerning GH, you really have no argument mate. No one is arguing against self casting GH rather the stupidity of carrying the unnecessary spell. Perhaps you don't know this, but a Scroll will perform the exact same service. There is no SR or DC to overcome. Further, each cast of GH equates to one or more enemy combatants that you will not quickly neutralize. Again, no point in wasting a precious spell slot on this easily scroll cast spell. Lets not even get into the current trend of monster debuffing the party.

It is common for new sorcerers to spell cast all sorts of wasteful spells and blow their mana unnecessarily. This includes unnecessary over-buffing. On top of that, they then usually hog up any available DV's which could be spent on a better sorcerer who is managing his mana responsively. These are the guys who blow thru their mana then either stand around with their hands in their pockets later mana depleted or resort to pot usage. Which is hilarious since the expense of one pot can buy dozens of GH scrolls. Every time you cast 6 extended GH's you blow about 10% of your initial mana.

GH is not needed to blow thru your typical quest. In a PUG group you should kill 80-90% of the bad guys yourself, while in an expert group, they will not even notice not having it while they help you slaughter mobs. Be smart, learn to scroll cast it when it is needed and save your mana. If your in a PUG and people complain, tell them to just stand behind you while you clear the way and that you will scroll cast them before end boss if needed.

After you gain more experience playing a sorcerer you will see the wisdom in scroll casting certain spells.

[rimble]

I am most content with my wasted spell slot on Greater Heroism. It pleases me to buff my servants, give them a Dancing Sphere, Web, or whatever to work in, and stand back and watch them do the dirty work.

All valid playing styles. People can make different choices. I love that about DDO.

As soon as there is a required Sorcerer spell loadout, augmented with scrolls, I'll probably stop playing my Sorcerer. 'LFM: Sorc: Spell Loadout #4 req'd'. No thanks.

[Dktr]

I suggest carrying reconstruct as a way to broaden your versatility. You harp on healing yet fail to see the benefit in potentially healing all. One can spell cast this much faster than scroll and heal much much more WF damage.

Concerning GH, you really have no argument mate. No one is arguing against self casting GH rather the stupidity of carrying the unnecessary spell. Perhaps you don't know this, but a Scroll will perform the exact same service. There is no SR or DC to overcome. Further, each cast of GH equates to one or more enemy combatants that you will not quickly neutralize. Again, no point in wasting a precious spell slot on this easily scroll cast spell. Lets not even get into the current trend of monster debuffing the party.

It is common for new sorcerers to spell cast all sorts of wasteful spells and blow their mana unnecessarily. This includes unnecessary over-buffing. On top of that, they then usually hog up any available DV's which could be spent on a better sorcerer who is managing his mana responsively. These are the guys who blow thru their mana then either stand around with their hands in their pockets later mana depleted or resort to pot usage. Which is hilarious since the expense of one pot can buy dozens of GH scrolls. Every time you cast 6 extended GH's you blow about 10% of your initial mana.

GH is not needed to blow thru your typical quest. In a PUG group you should kill 80-90% of the bad guys yourself, while in an expert group, they will not even notice not having it while they help you slaughter mobs. Be smart, learn to scroll cast it when it is needed and save your mana. If your in a PUG and people complain, tell them to just stand behind you while you clear the way and that you will scroll cast them before end boss if needed.

After you gain more experience playing a sorcerer you will see the wisdom in scroll casting certain spells.

I've been playing sorcerer for quite a while and wizard and cleric and bard. I have capped two clerics (rest assured, no one understands mana conservation better than I do- my first toon was a cleric with no higher level toon to purchase scrolls and wands for him). I also know the value of how a few simple buffs early on from the sorc can save the cleric a bunch of mana later.

The reason to carry greater hero and not scroll it is very simple... A properly equipped sorcerer should not be scrolling any arcane spell that is cast regularly... As to carrying reconstruct- i'm not warforged and those I group with are not warforged.... I could see the benefit of reconstruct over greater hero for warforged casters and warforged casters only... All other 6th level spells are situational at best.. those that are not situational can be mimicked through other spell choices...

The only scrolls my sorcerer keeps in his inventory are: heal, greater restoration, raise dead, and mass cure moderate wounds. I do keep a stack of reconstruct scrolls in the bank (don't even need to keep them in my inventory- i just don't cast it enough).. on the off chance there may be a warforged in a pug raid... One more thing you will never find in my sorcerer's inventory are mem pots (those all go to my clerics) .... My sorcerer has more mana then he knows what to do with.. I have yet to complete a quest where he hasn't had mana left over... If the cleric unloads dv's , I tell the cleric to give them all to the wizard or bard.. heck even the ranger would need the cleric's dv's before I would get a chance to use them...

I tell you what.. the next group you join whether it be guild, raid, or pug... ask that group which 6th level arcane spell they most want you carrying in your arsenal and which spell will benefit the group the greatest .. then come back on the forums and offer your sage advice on what should be carried.... Greater Hero is by far the single spell that I cast the most often..... If you're not making use of it, then I don't want to be in your pugs.....

[Dktr]

..

[boldarblood]

As a sorcerer, it is just plain foolish to take a spell that can just as effectively be cast from a scroll. GH is certainly one of these spells. Before any important battle, (i.e. heading to battle Sorjek) it is of course a very good idea to make sure the whole party has GH or when the rogue is tasked to find the difficult traps. However, it is an unnecessary party luxury 90% of the time. Its my experience that folks whinnying for GH when it normally should not be needed are usually poorly created melee'rs. Point out to them that you can scroll cast on them before the big battle with the end boss but not continuously. There are too many good 6th level spells to waste a spot on this spell. If you do, you will only marginalize your capability and be less effective to a party in the long run.

Empower is nice to have, but it really takes a back seat to many feats. Your intuition is correct here. Using just maximize is the most efficient way to spend your mana. Furthermore, if you know that you will use all of your mana in a given battle, you will in fact do more total damage with maximize alone than with maximize and empower. Perform some basic math and prove this to yourself if need be. Don't trade any feats for empower.

Extend is another great luxury feat. However, as was stated by someone earlier you are better off taking offensive feats as you have. Enlarge, for example is far better than extend. It enables you to deal with tough encounters outside the party danger range (especially if you use non aggro spells). If terribly necessary you can always rebuff on those rare occasions where 15 minutes is not long enough.

Finally, I just want to point out that unless you run a lot of easy areas (like the vale or vale quests on normal) spell penetration and spell DC are important considerations (especially for the new content and subter). I would guess that Mod 9 will continue the trend of high spell resistance and saves for trash monsters. I would suggest 25 minimum for SP.

Finally, PK is imo a horrible spell. Monsters get SR and two saves. A very inefficient way to deal with mobs. You can finger 95% of the trash mobs in every area currently. This spell should be used instead of PK. A real pro sorcerer kill quickly and consistently with as little mana as possible. IMO that's the sorcerers job.



If you are a warforge, then yes reconstruct is better than GH. But if you are a fleshy then the GH is much better. I run solo alot, and I do not want to waste that much scrolls for GH. I use it all the time. The +4 umd is great for never fail raise dead and heal on a 3 or higher.

I would much rahter have extend. I like extended haste/rage. Plus the extended spells like Acid Fog are great for raids. Extended buffs for things like VOD. I find the enlarge to be much more situational than extend.

I added Spell Pen 1 and 2 feats and maxed the 3 enhancements.

Finally, PK is a great spell if you build your sorc correct. Spell Pen 1/2 plus enhanements and heighten and it is very effective at end game. I can pk everything in the shroud that I can with finger at an extremely high rate. I also use it in all the vale quests with no problem at all. I throw pk/fod back to back with great effect and I rarely miss with pk.

[Samadhi]

A properly equipped sorcerer should not be scrolling any arcane spell that is cast regularly...

Why is that that I shouldn't regularly use scrolls of something so cheap to save my mana for something useful?

I don't know how you define "regularly," but I rarely GH anyone but myself unless the quest requires it for fear immunity or someone specifically needs it for their UMD



Greater Hero is by far the single spell that I cast the most often..... If you're not making use of it, then I don't want to be in your pugs.....

If GH is really the spell you cast most often, then you are playing a very poor sorc. To be honest, I highly doubt this spell uses more than 100-200 of your mana per quest, and therefore I don't believe this really is the spell you are casting most often.

[Dktr]

Why is that that I shouldn't regularly use scrolls of something so cheap to save my mana for something useful?

I don't know how you define "regularly," but I rarely GH anyone but myself unless the quest requires it for fear immunity or someone specifically needs it for their UMD



If GH is really the spell you cast most often, then you are playing a very poor sorc. To be honest, I highly doubt this spell uses more than 100-200 of your mana per quest, and therefore I don't believe this really is the spell you are casting most often.

sorry 6th level spell that I'm casting the most often... although, I was a very big fan of mass suggestion for a long while.. I have since made more use of the 3rd level spell suggestion, and I was able to get over my addiction to the mass version... Although, I can not wait for the level cap to raise; so, I can get mass suggestion back. I would never take mass suggestion over greater hero though..

[Dktr]

Sorry OP, your question was on required feats:

What I did originally was:

Start with Mental Toughness and Maximize at level 1 (if you're human)

Then take Extend at level 3
** if you haven't taken maximize yet- take it,now

Then take Skill Focus UMD or Enlarge or Extend at level 6
** again depending on playstyle...

Take Heighten at level 9

Take Spell Pen at level 12
(at this point I would swap Mental Toughness for Greater Spell Penetration with a dragonshard) You don't really need spell pen until you get to the vale at level 12

At level 15 Take either Enlarge, Spell Focus Necromancy, Skill Focus UMD, or Extend again depending on your playstyle.

[Vengenance]

My 2 CP

Feats:
extend
max
empower
heighten
spell pen I & II

With regards to GH, any sorc who carries GH as their level 6 spell is gimped IMO. At end level pretty much every character that needs GH should have it on a gird, most of my characters have 2-3 girds on them at end game. If someone doesn't have a gird then use a scroll on them or have a bard cast GH on them. My sorc carries 50-100 GH scrolls for use on himself or others if needed. Level 6 spells are just to good waste on an easily obtained self buff.

Choose Three
Disintegrate
Flesh to Stone
Acid Fog
Reconstruct

I personally carry Acid Fog, Disintegrate, and Reconstruct. I'm not warforged, but I like to run VOD so it's useful to have when you have a WF tank.

[Dktr]

My 2 CP



With regards to GH, any sorc who carries GH as their level 6 spell is gimped IMO. At end level pretty much every character that needs GH should have it on a gird, most of my characters have 2-3 girds on them at end game. If someone doesn't have a gird then use a scroll on them or have a bard cast GH on them. My sorc carries 50-100 GH scrolls for use on himself or others if needed. Level 6 spells are just to good waste on an easily obtained self buff.

I personally carry Acid Fog, Disintegrate, and Reconstruct. I'm not warforged, but I like to run VOD so it's useful to have when you have a WF tank.

you see, I would argue that any sorc running with acid fog is gimped.. try solid fog + wall of fire or solid fog + cloudkill.. .maybe even all 3... save yourself some $$ on scrolls ... if you're deadset on not carrying gh.. you would still be better off swapping acid fog for flesh to stone.. FTS is great for soloing, it doesn't draw aggro if you miss the 1st cast .. and once you've made a lawn ornament you can beat on it with a puncturing weapon to save yourself sp...

[Samadhi]

you see, I would argue that any sorc running with acid fog is gimped.. try solid fog + wall of fire or solid fog + cloudkill.. .maybe even all 3... save yourself some $$ on scrolls

Most sorcs would argue lvl 4 spells are the hardest to fit stuff in (I have SF myself, but have considered trading it for DD on more than one occasion).

But the main thing, is that acid fog can do a pile of damage to many red named that are immune to fire. (I don't have room for acid on my sorc for myself, but my wiz uses it all the freaking time).

One top lvl quest will provide you enough sellable goods to equal one stack of GH scrolls, on average. This is not costly imo.

[rimble]

you see, I would argue that any sorc running with acid fog is gimped.. try solid fog + wall of fire or solid fog + cloudkill.. .maybe even all 3

Acid Fog + Wall of Fire is quite nice, thank-you-very-much. Can get a crit Acid Fog to sit on the Raid bosses, on Normal, for over 100 damage a tick, for over two minutes.


I personally carry Acid Fog, Disintegrate, and Reconstruct. I'm not warforged, but I like to run VOD so it's useful to have when you have a WF tank.

See, that just sound backwards to me. I ALWAYS use Greater Heroism, and carry Reconstruct scrolls for the rare times I need to play WF healer, which is very rare in my game.

Obviously everything plays out differently for everyone and their friends and their guild and whatever, so let's keep that in mind when we're flinging 'gimp's around.

[boldarblood]

Acid Fog + Wall of Fire is quite nice, thank-you-very-much. Can get a crit Acid Fog to sit on the Raid bosses, on Normal, for over 100 damage a tick, for over two minutes.



See, that just sound backwards to me. I ALWAYS use Greater Heroism, and carry Reconstruct scrolls for the rare times I need to play WF healer, which is very rare in my game.

Obviously everything plays out differently for everyone and their friends and their guild and whatever, so let's keep that in mind when we're flinging 'gimp's around.

Same, it is very very rare that I ever use Reconstruct or FTS. I use GH way more than either of those spells. I carry reconstruct scrolls, and don't use FTS (really only places I would use it would be Tor and Spiders in the Vale. I carry Acid Fog, Disintigrate, GH.

[Samadhi]

Same, it is very very rare that I ever use Reconstruct or FTS. I use GH way more than either of those spells. I carry reconstruct scrolls, and don't use FTS (really only places I would use it would be Tor and Spiders in the Vale. I carry Acid Fog, Disintigrate, GH.

Now this is true, that FTS isn't used that much. I've considered dumping it for acid fog a couple times. Unfortunately, the quests where FTS is useful - it is extremely useful.

In the end, the only lvl 6 spell I would say is really mandatory is disintegrate. There are just too many red named that nothing else will really work on.

[Dktr]

Rimble that is very well said and you are right. 6th level spells are a precious spell slot and there really is no right or wrong way to play them. It all comes down to playstyle. I use my sorcerer as a back-up cleric and place a high value on the umd skill.... Others play their casters as DPS machines and prefer lots of dmg quickly.. Ultimately, it all comes down to how you want to play the game and what works toward your playtstyle...

[BelVic]

For example i have seen a Hound-Raid fail because non of the 2 Sorcerers who were in the group had GH. Too many people got feared at the same time --> clerics + the bard got overstrained --> puppies died --> fail.

When asked why they didnt carry it one dropped group and the other just said: "Why should i carry it if you can just get yourself a Planar Gird. I have one."

Blame on pallies. :) They have new spell called Lionheart.

Spell: Lionheart
Imbues a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear

When I do DQ flagging fast I just ask ppl who wants to do wiz-king fast ( usually 1-2 person is enough - not necessary caster). Nobody ever ask me if they can get GH at the quest ( where mummy can fear you do death).

Besides planar gird, GH, Lionheart, being pally, there is also item called reaver ring and few other items to make you immune to fear.

[Dktr]

Now this is true, that FTS isn't used that much. I've considered dumping it for acid fog a couple times. Unfortunately, the quests where FTS is useful - it is extremely useful.

In the end, the only lvl 6 spell I would say is really mandatory is disintegrate. There are just too many red named that nothing else will really work on.

I have disintegrate as well, but that's the spell that I've been considering swapping out... In end-game content, it seems like everything is making their save against disintegrate, and polar ray works so much better... Although I do like to 1,2 red and purple names with polar ray and disintegrate.... I like FTS for soloing.. the fact that it doesn't draw aggro is key for me.... I don't have any trouble getting it to land on trash mobs....

[Vengenance]

you see, I would argue that any sorc running with acid fog is gimped.. try solid fog + wall of fire or solid fog + cloudkill.. .maybe even all 3... save yourself some $$ on scrolls ... if you're deadset on not carrying gh.. you would still be better off swapping acid fog for flesh to stone.. FTS is great for soloing, it doesn't draw aggro if you miss the 1st cast .. and once you've made a lawn ornament you can beat on it with a puncturing weapon to save yourself sp...

Acid fog isn't a great spell but it's decent DPS against most end game mobs and also provides a 20% concealment bonus at the same time. Level 4 spells are way too good to pick up solid fog when Acid fog is superior to it anyways. Try it on the bats at the end of VOD and see the bats switch aggro to you instead of the fighters giving the group an easy completion.

Flesh to stone is a great spell and I had it until I started running VOD and ran into many groups using a WF to tank solumedes so I picked up reconstruct. The spell is way better than using scrolls as it is affected by potency items and can be maxxed and empowered.

GH, like I stated before is available on an easy to obtain item that can be farmed or traded for. GH on a scroll is exactly as effective as GH from the spell, and can be used by anyone with a 40 UMD. My rogue and rangers can self cast this. Wizzards and Bards can also cast this spell. So, given all of that and the fact we only get 3 level 6 spells I once again state that any sorc who carries GH as a spell is gimped, IMO.

[boldarblood]

Now this is true, that FTS isn't used that much. I've considered dumping it for acid fog a couple times. Unfortunately, the quests where FTS is useful - it is extremely useful.

In the end, the only lvl 6 spell I would say is really mandatory is disintegrate. There are just too many red named that nothing else will really work on.

And don't get me wrong, absolutely love FTS. I wish I had 1 more spell so I could get both LOL. Makes running spiders easier when solo running it. (I want as much loot as I can and FTS those spiders at end makes it easier to get that extra chest). Those spiders have uncanny timing in jumping in front of my rays (scorching/polar) when fighting the end boss).

[Dktr]

Acid fog isn't a great spell but it's decent DPS against most end game mobs and also provides a 20% concealment bonus at the same time. Level 4 spells are way too good to pick up solid fog when Acid fog is superior to it anyways. Try it on the bats at the end of VOD and see the bats switch aggro to you instead of the fighters giving the group an easy completion.

Flesh to stone is a great spell and I had it until I started running VOD and ran into many groups using a WF to tank solumedes so I picked up reconstruct. The spell is way better than using scrolls as it is affected by potency items and can be maxxed and empowered.

GH, like I stated before is available on an easy to obtain item that can be farmed or traded for. GH on a scroll is exactly as effective as GH from the spell, and can be used by anyone with a 40 UMD. My rogue and rangers can self cast this. Wizzards and Bards can also cast this spell. So, given all of that and the fact we only get 3 level 6 spells I once again state that any sorc who carries GH as a spell is gimped, IMO.

Greater Hero is a necessity for a umd build Sorcerer. Yes, it can be scrolled. Yes, the scrolls are easlily obtainable. However, an extended Greater Hero lasts for 32 minutes. The scrolled version lasts for 11 minutes. VOD, Hound, and Shroud can take longer than 11 minutes (although shroud wiht upgraded weapons can be run in less than 11 minutes). When I have gh on myself, I can get my UMD to 40.

If I'm 12 minutes into a raid, and I'm putting up my fogs, fod'ing the trash, throwing my polar rays, throwing my ennervates.. drawing all kinds of aggro and all of a sudden I see the cleric's red bar drop or my redbar drop to nothing... Then, I go to throw a heal.. the last thing I want to see is that error message "UMD failure" and then notice there is no little yellow icon at the top of my screen.... Bottom line.. when I'm throwing a heal - it's because I need that heal to land. I may not necessarily be timing all of my buffs to know exactly when they expire.... 11 minutes into a raid- you're generally into the thick of it...

Not to mention the expense.. especially with how much I cast that spell...

[Vengenance]

Greater Hero is a necessity for a umd build Sorcerer. Yes, it can be scrolled. Yes, the scrolls are easlily obtainable. However, an extended Greater Hero lasts for 32 minutes. The scrolled version lasts for 11 minutes. VOD, Hound, and Shroud can take longer than 11 minutes (although shroud wiht upgraded weapons can be run in less than 11 minutes). When I have gh on myself, I can get my UMD to 40.

If I'm 12 minutes into a raid, and I'm putting up my fogs, fod'ing the trash, throwing my polar rays, throwing my ennervates.. drawing all kinds of aggro and all of a sudden I see the cleric's red bar drop or my redbar drop to nothing... Then, I go to throw a heal.. the last thing I want to see is that error message "UMD failure" and then notice there is no little yellow icon at the top of my screen.... Bottom line.. when I'm throwing a heal - it's because I need that heal to land. I may not necessarily be timing all of my buffs to know exactly when they expire.... 11 minutes into a raid- you're generally into the thick of it...

Not to mention the expense.. especially with how much I cast that spell...

What happens when you get dispelled, you recast, what happens when the spell runs out, you recast. Easy as that. Part of being a good caster is knowing when you should recast your spells. BTW, my caster has UMD as welll, and I never have the problems you seem to be bringing up and I run raids all of the time.

With regards to the raids you indicate:
If you run Hound and it goes longer than 6-7 minutes then you're not going to fail because you don't have GH on. At the 6 minute mark or so beholders start to spawn and your extended GH is worthless since it'll be dispelled anyways.

In VOD there is a big time delay at the 9-10 minute mark where you can refreshen all of your buffs if necessary.

No part of the shroud should last longer than 11 minutes and since there are shrines at the end of each a bard should be able to cast GH if needed. Why even cast extended GH on people anyways since most people shrine at the end of each part anyways. Acid Fog is much, much, much, much more useful in Shroud than GH is since only the first part requires some fear immunity and if a melee needs the extra +2 to hit on top of bard songs then that person is gimped.

Titan, the raid never lasts more than 5-6 minutes and there is no fear check.


DQ, No fear check and the raid doesn't last 10 minutes even on elite.

Dragon, No fear check and any buff you have is pretty much stripped away when you charge in.

As far as the expense, I have 2 capped clerics and they are far more expensive to run than my sorc. A stack of 100 GH scrolls lasts me months since I pretty much use them only on myself for the UMD. As soon as you tell the group you don't have GH someone else will cast it or you'll see the party start casting it on themselves.

[boldarblood]

GH, like I stated before is available on an easy to obtain item that can be farmed or traded for. GH on a scroll is exactly as effective as GH from the spell, and can be used by anyone with a 40 UMD. My rogue and rangers can self cast this. Wizzards and Bards can also cast this spell. So, given all of that and the fact we only get 3 level 6 spells I once again state that any sorc who carries GH as a spell is gimped, IMO.

I disagree with you.

Of the 6th level spells. acid fog and disintegrate are both I consider necesary. FTS is something I dont use anymore aside from 2 dungeons.

I dont travel with WF. Your group mechanics determine this. Like most, I run the raids through guild and a Custom channel of 5-6 different guilds. Out of these guilds there is only 1-2 WF that are non casters. So me carrying Reconstruct would gimp me. I solo alot of stuff on my sorc due to some of my playing time. The GH is much more useful than a spell I wont use at all in reconstruct. For those rare moments that I do need reconstruct I will use a scroll, and I have had the same stack for over 6 monhts. To make a blanket statement that a sorc is gimped for carrying GH is rediculous.

[gfunk]

My 2 CP

Feats:
extend
max
empower
heighten
spell pen I & II

With regards to GH, any sorc who carries GH as their level 6 spell is gimped IMO. At end level pretty much every character that needs GH should have it on a gird, most of my characters have 2-3 girds on them at end game. If someone doesn't have a gird then use a scroll on them or have a bard cast GH on them. My sorc carries 50-100 GH scrolls for use on himself or others if needed. Level 6 spells are just to good waste on an easily obtained self buff.

Choose Three
Disintegrate
Flesh to Stone
Acid Fog
Reconstruct

I personally carry Acid Fog, Disintegrate, and Reconstruct. I'm not warforged, but I like to run VOD so it's useful to have when you have a WF tank.

good summary.. I have a human sorc that has the exact feats (plus enlarge for killing beholders... though that may change). These feats will allow you to do what most parties expect a sorc to do (if you are in to being a conformist)

That said, the OP's enchantment focus spec could be fun. I've seen mass holds work very well in Shroud with an enchantment spec'd sorc, and have considered swaping out myself just for a refreshing change. If you run with a consistant group of people, I think a sorc will do quite well to get a little creative with his feat/spell/enhancement selection even if its not considered "optimal" by the masses. (on an aside, I'd love to put together a group of force spec'd sorcs for a all caster shroud run...100's of mm's and fm's everywhere would be hilarious... should also be good on the portals).

For 6th lvl spells I carry disintigrate, reconstruct, and swap between GH and FTS (depending on planned activity of the next while). Even though my sorc is human, I like reconstruct as I am running VOD fairly consistantly recently (main WF tank healing duty.. dont leave it in the hands of those wimpy wizi's).

As others have said, I think scrolling GH is just fine, at level cap it shouldn't be too difficult to afford a continuous supply of scrolls. Though it is nice to have full length GH's on occassionm its really just a convinience thing

Also, I notice that not many people recommend carrying any sort of de-buff spells. I think they deserve a mention, as they can save your clerics a fair amount of mana in certain circumstances (though some of the debuffs will land OK off scrolls or items like the staff of arcane power).

[Junts]

Now this is true, that FTS isn't used that much. I've considered dumping it for acid fog a couple times. Unfortunately, the quests where FTS is useful - it is extremely useful.

In the end, the only lvl 6 spell I would say is really mandatory is disintegrate. There are just too many red named that nothing else will really work on.

Honestly, the only times my sorceror has ever wanted disintegrate is when running m5 content - golems, high-level blackbones, and the abbot himself.

It's a spell I'm intending to not take, though I can appreciate it's versitility. Then again, my sorceror's planning to carry a -very- selectively small number of damage spells; the endgame is all raiding, and the only damage spells that are relevant in any of them are firewall, cone, polar ray and acid fog; carrying scorching ray is purely convenience, for a cheap single-target spell when fw isn't appropriate for some reason.

What is the 4th level spell that most of you are not-giving-up over ddoor? I personally carry and love enervation, but I don't see it cast enough by others to believe that they are carrying the spell as well, and many also don't carry pk.

If you aren't a believer in either, I can't see how level 4 slots are hard.

I can only conclude that other servers must have vastly different wf populations than mine: I run vod a lot, and never with a wf tank (admittedly, I tank it a lot, but there's no shortage of available intimitanks on ghallanda, I haven't run it with a wf tank in months, and that one was so bad my pally took it away from him while wearing a cloak of curses.)

[Vengenance]

To make a blanket statement that a sorc is gimped for carrying GH is rediculous.

So says the Gimp. Also if you read my post, I put IMO, and if your so upset about it maybe what I say strikes close to the truth.

One more thing, it is ridiculous not rediculous. TYVM

[Vengenance]

good summary.. I have a human sorc that has the exact feats (plus enlarge for killing beholders... though that may change).

I wish my sorc were human instead of drow just so I could have enlarge. Great feat!

[Blind_Skwerl]

I used to love enlarge back when mobs would sit in your cloudkill. Made soloing even easier. It is still easy to finger/pk beholders without it. You just need a little timing. My current list of feats: Max, Empower, Heighten, Spell Pen, Greater Spell Pen, Mental Toughness.

If I was to swap a feat out, it would be mental toughness for extend, but I value more sp over longer hastes myself.


P.S.- I do have GH and use it on myself always and anyone when they ask.

[Dktr]

What is the 4th level spell that most of you are not-giving-up over ddoor? I personally carry and love enervation, but I don't see it cast enough by others to believe that they are carrying the spell as well, and many also don't carry pk.



My sorcerer carries wall of fire, ennervate, dimension door, solid fog

I would like to carry pk or stoneskin; however, no point in carrying pk when you have finger of death.. and stoneskin wands are cheap and inexpensive (although the spell is better)... fireshield is nice, too but this is situational and scrolls are fine....

[QuintonReece]

The reason to carry greater hero and not scroll it is very simple... A properly equipped sorcerer should not be scrolling any arcane spell that is cast regularly...
No sence in this statement. Scrolls save mana. Thus the reason to carry them. Spells not requiring to pass SR or that dont need a DC check don't need to be mem'd. This saves spots for more available spells.

One more thing you will never find in my sorcerer's inventory are mem pots (those all go to my clerics) .... My sorcerer has more mana then he knows what to do with.. I have yet to complete a quest where he hasn't had mana left over...
Poor playing IMO. If you arent using your mana then its being wasted when it could be benefiting your party through buffs or heals(wf) or damage. Not saying you should always have 0 mana left but you should strive to use all you can before the end of a quest and most good sorc's I know can be creative on how to use most of it.

I tell you what.. the next group you join whether it be guild, raid, or pug... ask that group which 6th level arcane spell they most want you carrying in your arsenal and which spell will benefit the group the greatest .. then come back on the forums and offer your sage advice on what should be carried....
Hopefully you have a toon on argo and we can group. We'll run a few pug quests then ask the puggies who they would want more.Then we can duo(one to watch and and one to work) some quests to see who would be the better solo mage.





GH, like I stated before is available on an easy to obtain item that can be farmed or traded for. TRUE GH on a scroll is exactly as effective as GH from the spell,TRUE and can be used by anyone with a 40 UMD. My rogue and rangers can self cast this. Wizzards and Bards can also cast this spell. So, given all of that and the fact we only get 3 level 6 spells I once again state that any sorc who carries GH as a spell is gimped, IMO Agreed .


Greater Hero is a necessity for a umd build Sorcerer. Yes, it can be scrolled. Yes, the scrolls are easlily obtainable. However, an extended Greater Hero lasts for 32 minutes. Since when does it take more than 11 minutes between shrines... VERY RARELY! The scrolled version lasts for 11 minutes. VOD, Hound, and Shroud can take longer than 11 minutes NO and NO (although shroud wiht upgraded weapons can be run in less than 11 minutes). Hound should take around 6-7 minutes. Past that the beholders come out and all bets are off. Scrolled or mem'd it gets dispelled. Shroud... no part should take over 11 minutes to complete.

If I'm 12 minutes into a raid, and I'm putting up my fogs, fod'ing the trash, throwing my polar rays, throwing my ennervates.. drawing all kinds of aggro and all of a sudden I see the cleric's red bar drop or my redbar drop to nothing... Then, I go to throw a heal.. the last thing I want to see is that error message "UMD failure" and then notice there is no little yellow icon at the top of my screen.... Bottom line.. when I'm throwing a heal - it's because I need that heal to land. I may not necessarily be timing all of my buffs to know exactly when they expire.... This is an experience issue. Part of playing a caster.

Not to mention the expense.. especially with how much I cast that spell...Expense? Pfft. End game its a drop in the bucket.

I dont claim to know all but comeon guys... this is simple logic. The only difference between scroll vs mem'd is time. If u cant remember to re-cast on those almost never times when it takes longer than 11 minutes between shrines... then its a competence issue.

Dktr - Come to Argo and I'll show u some stuff that better players than I have shown to me.

Seriously.... look me up on Teslah and we'll compare notes. Then I'll introduce you to some really good sorc's that can give u some good build advice.

[alchilito]

I dont claim to know all but comeon guys... this is simple logic. The only difference between scroll vs mem'd is time. If u cant remember to re-cast on those almost never times when it takes longer than 11 minutes between shrines... then its a competence issue.

Dktr - Come to Argo and I'll show u some stuff that better players than I have shown to me.

Seriously.... look me up on Teslah and we'll compare notes. Then I'll introduce you to some really good sorc's that can give u some good build advice.



**** Toxn you just smoked that dude

[Desteria]

My sorc is my second oldest character. He is a drow with 36 CHA and a hodge podge of other stats.

For feats he has: Maximize, Heighten, Spell Pen, SF: Enchantment, GSF: Enchantment, SF: Illusion

For enhancements he has: spell pen 3, fire 4, fire crit 2, other fire crit 2 and other assorted stuff I can't remember off the top of my head.

He is at 2055sp and can last between most shrines okay. He is a little fragile and low on HP but I have a plan to get him up to 250.

There are two things that I have seen lately that make me wonder... one is the increased requests for greater heroism (which I only have on scrolls) and I've also been told that I MUST have extend to go with my haste spell.

It is usually only a complaint from people who won't wait for my slow butt to catch up and rehaste the group, which I am happy to do.

So what do you all think? (Both about my general enchanter build and the "extend requirement".)

Thanks. :D

heres my quick thoughs before I read the whole thred it looks long.... I will read still so some of this may alreayd be covered.

IS extend requiered Nope, you will just have to hast stuf fliek haste rage displacemnt firesheild etc a lot mroe often, and for long imobile fights FW/Acid fog/web more often IT will hit your SP, btu it;s not a requierment buy any shape of the imagination... I'd never go with out it BUT aslogn as you aqrnt dropign it to take somethign retarted liek MT it;s all good, (extend will easly save you more SP the MT gives you in purty much every quest you ever run).


MY recomended Sorc feats are a core of: Extend, Highten, MAximize, Spell Pen, GTR spell pen...
After that Empower is imo the most important feat that takes all current feats on a drow :( human can spend an extra on toughness, or Skill focus UMD or a spell focus or something.....

Thats my opinion... is your buidl broken as it is Nope, though much of the current high level stuff has either a enchantment immunity lameness ward OR instadeath imunity OR crazzy high will saves, I'm sorta guessing the SF illu is for PK swapign to SF necro and useing FoD would be better, if you want to kepe a Ista kill focus feat.

any way off the read how peopel have ripped on you now, I say you can work but your not as eficent as i woudl liek my sorc to be in current end game, but in no way broken it;s a theam and if you want to stick with it power to ya.


P.S. I dont carry G-hero either cept for scrolls.... bard almost always have it as well + grids, or normal hero potions, + wizzards get more options...
I also don;t normaly buff the part with it unless we are goign in to an area the saves or fear imunity are really needed, but i will scroll the party if need be for the times they REALLY need +4 to hit(none bard stacking), or +4 saves or fear immunity, the rest of the time your on your own for that buff as there are lots of options avalible for you.

[Desteria]

Extended haste is very nice, but it´s not a "better have it or leave". Just nice to have.

No Greater Heroism on the other hand is a big downer. Allmost all expect the group´s arcane caster to have this spell, because it is incredibly good.


Having GH or not reminds me of the discussions of old on "Why should my Sorc carry Haste if you can also just chug potions?"


For example i have seen a Hound-Raid fail because non of the 2 Sorcerers who were in the group had GH. Too many people got feared at the same time --> clerics + the bard got overstrained --> puppies died --> fail.

When asked why they didnt carry it one dropped group and the other just said: "Why should i carry it if you can just get yourself a Planar Gird. I have one."

see i don;t caryr it BUT thats a situation where i would use scrolls on the part because the fear immunity IS important, why didnt the bard have it? they have less compitition for the spell slot then sorcs...
Really I blame the sorc not for not havign the spell BUT knowign nither had it NOT being willign to use scroll in a place where the spell is VERY helpfull.

[Desteria]

What do you carry in place of GH?

Acid fog... Invaluable in most end game quests
FtS... ever since Giant hold Tor it;s had a perminant slot
Distigrate... FOr stuff that is ammune to everything else, (this i could drop but then I'd go to solo Wizking or something and be SCRWED for the king....)

G-hero will probably reappear as a spell at level 17, unless i find somethign i realyl want more.

[Desteria]

He sounds alot like my Drow Sorc, though a little better (1700ish sp, 205ish hp, his gear stinks). Levelling mine up I really enjoyed the Enchantment school. However, there just aren't enough Feats, and I migrated away from the Spell Focuses for other things.

First, I've found I need both Maximize and Empower. Sometimes you just need to blast your way through high Fire Resistance with a Max + Emp Wall of Fire...and on the big red nameds, most of them you can get a Max + Emp crit Acid Fog to tick away for over 100hp a pop. Makes me feel like I'm contributing a little more on the new big red nameds that aren't very arcane friendly.

I've ended up with Maximize, Empower, Heighten, Extend, Spell Pen 1, and Spell Pen 2. I wouldn't change a thing there.

I do carry, use, and love Greater Heroism. As someone else mentioned, I primarily want that +4 UMD, but the other benefits are of course awesome as well. I do miss Disintegrate sometimes (I carry Acid Fog, FtS, and GH) but such is the life of a Sorcerer.

I ended up going down both the Fire/Ice Enhancement lines and the Electricity/Acid Enhancement lines. I'm constantly considering backing down on the Electricity/Acid side, but for now my Enhancements are:

Enhancement: Sorcerer Improved Empowering I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Energy I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Energy II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Energy III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Energy I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Energy II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Energy III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy Manipulation I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy Manipulation II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy Manipulation III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Enerrgy Manipulation IV
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation IV
Enhancement: Sorcerer Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma III

It's a weird Enhancement layout, I doubt most people would recommend it, but it works for me.

Meh i cna se eit working well with the spells ot back it ......

only suggest I'd prolyl make would be bakc off on the crit mutiplies a bit will give ya a few points ofr a bit mroe diversity.... OR spell pen 3!!! also if you have a UMD for no fail heal/mcmw scrolls a few level of scroll moaster rocks then, (i have all 4 levels my self and LOVE IT but then my human sorc need smore then 110 pt heal scrolls that only a 3rd of her HP!).

[Desteria]

Ive always bleieved having Sell pent/Gtr Spell Pen was a great benefit, but after some testing in the vale , I really cant support needing it. The highest Spell pen mob in the vale(explorer area) is the Devil over by the Coal Chamber , 26. and yes Ive been out there that much to know. Most are in the 22-24 range. With Spell Pen feat and 2 enhancement with pen item, Im rolling 23.

Anyone convince me that Gtr Spell Pen is actual worth it?


Instead of...?

Run actual quests, Spell Resistances get higher than 26. If you don't run the end-game stuff, then yeah, don't bother with it. I haven't analyzed my logs in quests to figure out SR, but I still see that blue shield more than I'd like.

Agreed ... For EG runnign wioth the devils elite gales have 36 SR or right aroudn there...
In the shroud you cna still se eblue sheilds....
Adn totaly seeign the blue sheild at ALL is more then I'd like sooo imo you cna never have enough spell pen.

[Desteria]

there is this other spell called firewall....

oh, and I think the quest in Necropolis you're thinking of is Inferno of the Damned.. just bring a wand of fireballs in there with you for the torches (works fine)... When I do that quest I usually bring scrolls of cone of cold as well; so, I don't have to waste my mana on those stupid torches...

I sue the DQ staff FB and CoC!!! or wands on the cleric with a sorc level OR when soloing or shortmaning will all melles and no umd use the mphits to light/extiquish the torches...

[Desteria]

You're using Acid fog in place of greater hero.... How is that really any better than cloudkill + solid fog? Just throw a firewall in there if mobs are not going down fast enough....

As soon as vendors sell solid fog scrolls agian sure!!!!

4th levle spells and even tighter then 6th level spells ESPECALY if you want DDoor and don't have old scrolls!

P.S. FIRESHILD is DA BOMB

[Desteria]

I see that you carry reconstruct.... I imagine you carry reconstruct for self-healing- very good idea for a warforged caster. That is precisely why a human/drow/elf/dwarf/halfling sorcerer should carry greater hero- FOR THE SELF HEALING (hello!! umd!!)...

Hello Its cheap ti kepe G-hero on your self from scrolls so you cna use those OTHER levle 6 scrolls .... IF useign heal scrolls is nto a cost issue for you then useign 1 G-hero scroll every 11misn should nto be either.

[Mhykke]

As for the GH question.....

I carry a couple of planar girds on my casters for giving GH to myself to get my UMD up. 22 minutes worth of GH (2 girds) is plenty I find. I also carry a lot of scrolls in case someone asks me for it, or a cleric needs it for hound for example. It all depends on who you run with though. If the majority of people you run with don't have girds, ever, then it might be worth it. Personally, 11 minutes off of a scroll is reason enough for me not to use a spell slot with my sorc on GH.

[Desteria]

What happens when you get dispelled, you recast, what happens when the spell runs out, you recast. Easy as that. Part of being a good caster is knowing when you should recast your spells. BTW, my caster has UMD as welll, and I never have the problems you seem to be bringing up and I run raids all of the time.

With regards to the raids you indicate:
If you run Hound and it goes longer than 6-7 minutes then you're not going to fail because you don't have GH on. At the 6 minute mark or so beholders start to spawn and your extended GH is worthless since it'll be dispelled anyways.

In VOD there is a big time delay at the 9-10 minute mark where you can refreshen all of your buffs if necessary.

No part of the shroud should last longer than 11 minutes and since there are shrines at the end of each a bard should be able to cast GH if needed. Why even cast extended GH on people anyways since most people shrine at the end of each part anyways. Acid Fog is much, much, much, much more useful in Shroud than GH is since only the first part requires some fear immunity and if a melee needs the extra +2 to hit on top of bard songs then that person is gimped.

Titan, the raid never lasts more than 5-6 minutes and there is no fear check.


DQ, No fear check and the raid doesn't last 10 minutes even on elite.

Dragon, No fear check and any buff you have is pretty much stripped away when you charge in.

As far as the expense, I have 2 capped clerics and they are far more expensive to run than my sorc. A stack of 100 GH scrolls lasts me months since I pretty much use them only on myself for the UMD. As soon as you tell the group you don't have GH someone else will cast it or you'll see the party start casting it on themselves.

I dont; knw you but mostly i agree GH shoudl be scrolled However.....


I disagree with you.

Of the 6th level spells. acid fog and disintegrate are both I consider necesary. FTS is something I dont use anymore aside from 2 dungeons.

I dont travel with WF. Your group mechanics determine this. Like most, I run the raids through guild and a Custom channel of 5-6 different guilds. Out of these guilds there is only 1-2 WF that are non casters. So me carrying Reconstruct would gimp me. I solo alot of stuff on my sorc due to some of my playing time. The GH is much more useful than a spell I wont use at all in reconstruct. For those rare moments that I do need reconstruct I will use a scroll, and I have had the same stack for over 6 monhts. To make a blanket statement that a sorc is gimped for carrying GH is rediculous.

I know you, I know you know your stuff, I run with you a bunch, and i agree your not gimped BUT you also though about it before you kept G-hero... I my self will never give up FTS as the place s it is usfull it;s REALLLY usefull but I wont call you a gimp for not having it since you made a reasoned choice NOT just a omg must spam G-hero on every one i gorup with because they are all gimps and deamand it 24-7.

[Desteria]

Honestly, the only times my sorceror has ever wanted disintegrate is when running m5 content - golems, high-level blackbones, and the abbot himself.

there are a bunck fo other places it;s also usfull, Cursed crypt loot runs, lots of BB's there also rapes the vamps well they don't save often though SR will also work but not as well, and you cna cycle the 2 for faster DPS...


It's a spell I'm intending to not take, though I can appreciate it's versitility. Then again, my sorceror's planning to carry a -very- selectively small number of damage spells; the endgame is all raiding, and the only damage spells that are relevant in any of them are firewall, cone, polar ray and acid fog; carrying scorching ray is purely convenience, for a cheap single-target spell when fw isn't appropriate for some reason.

I think SR is greta for when you want Durst DPS FW will get the job done... Slowly FW + SR will get it down FAST... Sorjek for EG a sorc with CoC, polar ray, SR, WoF, can vaporize all the fire cold mephits REALLLLY fast and they are 2 of the ones you want dead the soonest....
And I agree I carry only minimal nuke spells but slighly more then you plan on...
SR - single target fire damage, fastest cheapest ST nuke unless highly resistant/immune to fire, (getitng the right SoV rune will make PR bigger but still slower).
FW - duh! area fire damage
CoC - Area cold damage
Distigrate - catch all spell for imune to Fire and Cold damage mobs i want to muke.
PR - Single target cold damage
Acid fog - Not really a dmagae spell I have it as a CC spell though it does some damage, not acid speced.



What is the 4th level spell that most of you are not-giving-up over ddoor? I personally carry and love enervation, but I don't see it cast enough by others to believe that they are carrying the spell as well, and many also don't carry pk.

If you aren't a believer in either, I can't see how level 4 slots are hard.

Ok I have:
WoF - Duh!
Fire sheild - Insaily good spell with the amount of Fire/cold AoE that gets thrown around at high levels.
PK - I like cyclign inta kill when it;s the right thing to do.
Enervate - there are times I want something to stay a statue for ever and never make the same FTS + a few enervates = statue untill you roll a nat 20! and it has no save, and sometimes it;s just FUN to enervate somethign to death !!!!, Also great fun to Hypnoties your buddy in PvP then slowly enervate then to death muhahahaha.

DDoor also great levle 4 spell luckaly i still have about 2000 scrolls left, and i concerve them so i should be good for a while still :).
Solid fog of course is nice BUT with acid fog as an option, and scrollign G-hero I chose that.
Think there is a charm spell here that charm people like as well.
Stone skin is l;iked by a lto fo casters a well, I wand it when it;s realyl needed, most players a group with have between 1-4 min2 items &/or DQ rings soo bufifng other people is les sof a concern for me.


I can only conclude that other servers must have vastly different wf populations than mine: I run vod a lot, and never with a wf tank (admittedly, I tank it a lot, but there's no shortage of available intimitanks on ghallanda, I haven't run it with a wf tank in months, and that one was so bad my pally took it away from him while wearing a cloak of curses.)

Meh when i ran VoD regularly our tank of choice was almost always the monk... you dotn get cursed if you dotn get hit, also the sorc can use the od dheal scroll to kepe you up, even with new vod at least on normal, i puged it recently, my monk who has the same ac as the other monk we often used, still only got hit 20 odd times so easly bard/sorc/rouge healed with the odd scroll, i havent run elite sicne the change, i'm guessign it migth actuyl take a bard payign some atenttion, to healing... though really if you compare and extream PnP AC to and Extream DDO ac both shoudl have the optio to be unhittable buy anything but a nat 20 but it seams the last mod the decied raid bosses will beabel to hit extream AC sooo now they simple dotn miss anyoe else ever i guess, or maby the truly extream build just havent benebothing with vod latly.

[Desteria]

I used to love enlarge back when mobs would sit in your cloudkill. Made soloing even easier. It is still easy to finger/pk beholders without it. You just need a little timing. My current list of feats: Max, Empower, Heighten, Spell Pen, Greater Spell Pen, Mental Toughness.

If I was to swap a feat out, it would be mental toughness for extend, but I value more sp over longer hastes myself.


P.S.- I do have GH and use it on myself always and anyone when they ask.

btw a little math for you JUS useign haste for this example...

haste costs 20 SP normaly 30 extended(assumign no extend discounts) sooo having extend saves you 10 SP per 3m18s at minimum.
MT gives you 85sp
it takes 8 hastes to start to get ahead on efective SP provided by the feat ok thats 27min, assumgin a little overlap betwene shrines that seams like a long time and IS with just haste considered BUT as soon as you add any of the other short term buff in it adds up FAST, displacment say, VERY applicable to VoD where discacment on every one is GOD mode for all the cleaves have 50% miss chance... but we can use any quest you hit a area where displacmetn on most fo the group would be good ok your gona hti your self and 3 others hopeign the other 2 stay out of the way now ove the next 3m you will save 50SP and not have to refresh it al all wich mena mroe time to do other stuff, do that twice between shrines, ad din a coupel Fire sheilds for your self and 1 rage, and you have saved in those 6 mins 130SP but useign extend over the 85 that MT gave you....
Lets not even get started on when Extending a max/emped Wall of fire is good that can save you upwards of 50SP per CAST!!

Minor note for VoD, Extending a toen of Displacments/webs/fogs(acid/solid/ck[for the 20% miss])/haste is purtly much the way to make that quest easy mode, you can save more SP the MT gave you in the firts pass of buffing/layig down a little CC, (12 displacments 120SP, 1haste 10sp, 1 rage 10sp, 1web 5sp, 1 fire shield cold 15sp, 1acid fog[assumign max/emp off] 25sp= 185sp saved!!!! take that MT 85 SP heck you just saved more the MT&IMT combined!!!! and your not recastign stuff near as much wich frees you up for more UMDign heal scrolsl to help the clerics :) )

[Dktr]

I'm not quote your entire post it is far too long.

can give u some good build advice.


Again, Again, Again... The reason not to scroll greater hero, and to keep it memmed is: if you are a fleshy caster, it is a spell you are going to cast all the time, it helps with the umd skill.... The other sixth level spells are spells you are going to cast in certain situations. You might as well be scrolling haste and saving yourself a 3rd level spell slot.. Heck, haste scrolls are even cheaper than greater hero scrolls, and just think of all the mana you can save by not casting haste.......

As far as poor playing by having mana left over on my sorc.. My sorc has 2400 spell points, my wizard has 1590, my cleric Dktr has 1750, my cleric Dctor has 1710... My sorc has at least 650 more spell points than any of my other casting toons... if you can't spare a couple spell points for greater hero, then your play needs to be re-evaluated. If you ever pug with me, I promise you .. your toon will not be appreciated, my sorc can not only kill... he can heal.. he saves himself mana, he saves the clerics mana, and he takes the mobs down..

Fyi Toxn: I'm sure the tanks just love you when you throw up your acid fog (which they likely can not see through)... the fog then draws up a ton of aggro and doesn't kill anything.. now, the tanks get to chase down the mobs which ae chasing you .... and the clerics have to scramble to keep you healed while you run around like a jackrabbit on crack trying to slowly cast up another acid fog....

Not only can you save $$ by keep greater hero memmed, you can also save action points .. because in order to make acid fog anything worthwhile, you also have to invest action points that could be better spent elsewhere...

[Mhykke]

Again, Again, Again... The reason not to scroll greater hero, and to keep it memmed is: if you are a fleshy caster, it is a spell you are going to cast all the time, it helps with the umd skill.... .

What about getting a couple girds? That's what I do on my sorc. Never need to scroll myself (and I carry about 100 all the time), and always have GH running.

[Dktr]

What about getting a couple girds? That's what I do on my sorc. Never need to scroll myself (and I carry about 100 all the time), and always have GH running.

I have 2 girds, but those I keep on my clerics....

[CrimsonEagle]

I'll have to put myself in the GH scroll user crowd.

The reason?

Once you get up to that level, plat is easy to acquire. It is nothing to buy scrolls in stacks of 100.

Now, DK, (not to pick you out specifically, just the last post I read), I also use GH all the time. The only difference is that I will always have those spells that you consider to be situational while also having GH cast, which has no ill effects by casting from a scroll. The same cant be said for the "situational" spells as you put it.

The way that I look at it is this. If there is a choice between a spell that works just as good from a scroll as if I had cast it myself, or another spell that will not work as well from a scroll yet is very useful, I have to mem the spell that does not work as well from a scroll.

Mass suggestion sucks off a scroll. It is also a spell that is useful through most of the game....especially if you solo alot.

Flesh to stone sucks off a scroll. When this spell is needed, it can make things go soooooooo much smoother.

Disintegrate sucks off a scroll. Though I don't carry this yet, when I get another slot this will probably be my choice.

Acid Fog. NO SCROLLS. This is a handy spell to have. Acts as both CC and damage.

Reconstruct. Little less effective on a scroll due to any possible enhancments, but the big kicker is the time it takes to cast from a scroll. I applaud those who are non WF who choose to take this spell. They are making a sacrifice to take care of others.

Greater Heroism from scroll works EXACTLY the same as the spell. Only downside that could be considered would be that a scroll is not extended.

Now, if I took greater heroism I would be using spellpoints, (not too much of an issue), but more importantly I would totally negate another useful spell from the list above.

Using a scroll of GH, I use plat (Again, not to much of an issue), but more importantly, I would gain another useful spell that I would not otherwise have....situational or not.

Regardless, it boils down to being a personal preference. FOR ME, the benefits of memorizing another spell in place of GH (Which I do not lose use of through scrolls), far outweigh the convenience of having GH memorized.

Ultimately it is up to the players preference. I personally would never recommend a player memorize GH when scrolls have the exact same benefit.

If when cast from scrolls it lasted for a short duration, I would consider memorizing it with extend in mind, but 11 mins from a scroll is good enough for me.

Crimson.

[Dktr]

I'll have to put myself in the GH scroll user crowd.

The reason?

Once you get up to that level, plat is easy to acquire. It is nothing to buy scrolls in stacks of 100.

Now, DK, (not to pick you out specifically, just the last post I read), I also use GH all the time. The only difference is that I will always have those spells that you consider to be situational while also having GH cast, which has no ill effects by casting from a scroll. The same cant be said for the "situational" spells as you put it.

The way that I look at it is this. If there is a choice between a spell that works just as good from a scroll as if I had cast it myself, or another spell that will not work as well from a scroll yet is very useful, I have to mem the spell that does not work as well from a scroll.

Mass suggestion sucks off a scroll. It is also a spell that is useful through most of the game....especially if you solo alot.

Flesh to stone sucks off a scroll. When this spell is needed, it can make things go soooooooo much smoother.

Disintegrate sucks off a scroll. Though I don't carry this yet, when I get another slot this will probably be my choice.

Acid Fog. NO SCROLLS. This is a handy spell to have. Acts as both CC and damage.

Reconstruct. Little less effective on a scroll due to any possible enhancments, but the big kicker is the time it takes to cast from a scroll. I applaud those who are non WF who choose to take this spell. They are making a sacrifice to take care of others.

Greater Heroism from scroll works EXACTLY the same as the spell. Only downside that could be considered would be that a scroll is not extended.

Now, if I took greater heroism I would be using spellpoints, (not too much of an issue), but more importantly I would totally negate another useful spell from the list above.

Using a scroll of GH, I use plat (Again, not to much of an issue), but more importantly, I would gain another useful spell that I would not otherwise have....situational or not.

Regardless, it boils down to being a personal preference. FOR ME, the benefits of memorizing another spell in place of GH (Which I do not lose use of through scrolls), far outweigh the convenience of having GH memorized.

Ultimately it is up to the players preference. I personally would never recommend a player memorize GH when scrolls have the exact same benefit.

If when cast from scrolls it lasted for a short duration, I would consider memorizing it with extend in mind, but 11 mins from a scroll is good enough for me.

Crimson.

okay let's look at this from a plat standpoint... it's been a long time since I've purchased greater hero scrolls; I imagine since it's a 6th level spell it would cost the same as a stack of heal scrolls.. so 150,000 gold (+/-) depending on your haggle skill.... it costs 125,000 gold to swap a 6th level spell at the trainer....

Greater Hero is useful in every quest/situation. What tank doesn't want +4 to attack? What rogue doesn't want +4 to their skills?.. What cleric doesn't want +4 to haggle? Who doesn't want +4 to their saves? In other words, I would go through a stack very quickly.. For my playstyle, I would go through a stack of gh scrolls in less than 3 days.

Reconstruct.. If I were warforged; I would have this loaded instead of Greater Hero... My casters are drow; so, this is not in my arsenal...

Acid Fog .. not useful in every situation.. yes, you can use it against Harry and Sally, but mostly it's just an aggro magnet that doesn't kill anything. You can use Solid Fog + Cloudkill... or Solid Fog + Wall of Fire.... or Discoball + Mindfog + Firewall.. or any combination of the above...

Disintegrate.... not useful in every situation... yes you can use it on red names, but for the most part at end game everything saves against it and polar ray works much better... I have this in my arsenal, but if I were to swap a spell this would be the one..

Flesh to Stone... I like this spell. I use it a lot, but for the most part people only use it in the Tor, in Cursed Crypt, or Inferno of the Damned... This is in my arsenal, but it is not a necessity

Mass Suggestion... another favorite spell of mine, but it's not needed... Heightened suggestion works just as well.. you just need to cast it twice...

Banishment.... not needed.. has a very small area of effect.... Dismissal uses fewer sp for the same effect (dismissal is also in a 5th level slot which is far less precious than the 6th level slots)...

Chain Lightning.. Not a spell I keep loaded because you have to spec for it to make it worthwhile... It is however very useful against blackbones.. and most mobs do not have lightning immunities...

As I see it, it would be more economical to keep Greater Hero loaded and just swap the other spells at the trainer every 3 days to keep whichever spell you needed for that quest loaded.... You would be saving at least 25,000 gold... even more if you haven't invested in the haggle skill....There is a 3 day timer on the raids, anyhow....

[Thrudh]

I carry a couple of planar girds on my casters

Man, how many girds do you have that you can spare a couple on a CASTER??

How many people do you guys think have a dozen or so girds?

The powergamers play in a different world, and their advice really only applies to that world. It's almost pointless for them to come down and offer advice to the masses.

Edit: This probably sounded insulting, but I didn't mean it to be... However, it is true than having unlimited plat and tons of rare gear skews your perception of the game.

[Thrudh]

GH on a scroll is fine if you can afford the plat...

Extend is not necessary....

These are the tough choices when playing a sorc.

A wizard ALWAYS has Extend, and 98% will have GH, but only 60% of the SP.

It really is a good balance....

[CrimsonEagle]

GH on a scroll is fine if you can afford the plat...

Extend is not necessary....

These are the tough choices when playing a sorc.

A wizard ALWAYS has Extend, and 98% will have GH, but only 60% of the SP.

It really is a good balance....

I also carry scrolls of GH on my Wiz because of the lesser amount of spellpoints. *Shrugs shoulders* Just makes sense to me.

Something to think of in regards to plat.

On a 20 min run in the vale, hitting a possible 11 chests I can make anywhere between 70 to over 100k gold. This is not counting any rare items that I get that I can sell on the AH. 20 mins. No "twink gear" needed which is the beauty of the casting class.

I only bring this up because, (and if I'm wrong in my assumption, feel free to correct me) you make it sound as if funds are still hard to attain at this level with a caster and this should not be true.

The only reason I could see a caster having trouble with funds at this level is because they are not quite sure as to HOW to attain the funds due to being relativly new. By rights though, once you know what to do, funds should be easy to come by.

Granted, I put alot of time in the game, (at least until I burn myself out a bit and take a break), but regardless, alot of times even when I am taking a little break from my normal schedual its not too hard for me to jump in on occasion, do a quick run, then log.

On a caster specifically, funds should not be a problem once a certain level is reached.

Now whether a person wants to spend those funds on other things like supporting other characters, thats a different story all together for someone who does not put alot of time in game.

[Dktr]

I also carry scrolls of GH on my Wiz because of the lesser amount of spellpoints. *Shrugs shoulders* Just makes sense to me.

Something to think of in regards to plat.

On a 20 min run in the vale, hitting a possible 11 chests I can make anywhere between 70 to over 100k gold. This is not counting any rare items that I get that I can sell on the AH. 20 mins. No "twink gear" needed which is the beauty of the casting class.

I only bring this up because, (and if I'm wrong in my assumption, feel free to correct me) you make it sound as if funds are still hard to attain at this level with a caster and this should not be true.

The only reason I could see a caster having trouble with funds at this level is because they are not quite sure as to HOW to attain the funds due to being relativly new. By rights though, once you know what to do, funds should be easy to come by.

Granted, I put alot of time in the game, (at least until I burn myself out a bit and take a break), but regardless, alot of times even when I am taking a little break from my normal schedual its not too hard for me to jump in on occasion, do a quick run, then log.

On a caster specifically, funds should not be a problem once a certain level is reached.

Now whether a person wants to spend those funds on other things like supporting other characters, thats a different story all together for someone who does not put alot of time in game.

my argument is just that I think it is very silly to be scrolling a spell you will be casting all the time just to save a slot for a spell you will only be casting once in a very great while....

[CrimsonEagle]

Greater Hero is useful in every quest/situation. What tank doesn't want +4 to attack? What rogue doesn't want +4 to their skills?.. What cleric doesn't want +4 to haggle? Who doesn't want +4 to their saves? In other words, I would go through a stack very quickly.. For my playstyle, I would go through a stack of gh scrolls in less than 3 days.



Overkill most of the time.

The difference seems to be that I am more selective when casting GH. I do not see a need of casting this in every quest and when it is deemed nessisary it is easily covered.

You cast it in every quest on every player.

(shrugs shoulders again).

As long as you feel comfortable with your choice, have at it.

Edit. BTW, not being snide. Just a recognition of "Different strokes for different folks".

[tinyelvis]

Dktr,

From your comments involving total spell points, spell points used during quests, quest durations and lack of knowledge of end game encounters and valuable uses of such spells as acid fog it is clear you are still a very rookish caster. Further, since many seasoned casters have weighed in and tried to point out what seems to us is the obvious, "It is foolish to waste a very useful spell slot on a spell that is easily scroll'able" , I can conclude that you are just too stubborn to admit the validity of this point.

From the description of your play style (spell points used, not used, and wasted) it seems to me that you come up very short as a caster during questing and attempt to buy off good will with your party members by spamming buffs (be they needed or not). In all honesty, a party would be better off filling the slot with another DPS than picking up such a caster.

[Mhykke]

Man, how many girds do you have that you can spare a couple on a CASTER??

How many people do you guys think have a dozen or so girds?

The powergamers play in a different world, and their advice really only applies to that world. It's almost pointless for them to come down and offer advice to the masses.

Edit: This probably sounded insulting, but I didn't mean it to be... However, it is true than having unlimited plat and tons of rare gear skews your perception of the game.

That's why I usually don't bother giving a viewpoint on this kind of stuff.

I would like to add that girds are pretty easily farmable, especially by a capped caster. And now that we have hirelings, the quest can be soloed.

[tinyelvis]

I wish my sorc were human instead of drow just so I could have enlarge. Great feat!

Drop Empower and pick up Enlarge. You will have better mana efficiency using just maximize and actually do more damage by a significant amount in situations where you plan to use all of your mana (i.e. end boss fights). Also, I found it made my forgetful life easier not having to worry about switching Empower on and off.

[rimble]

Man, how many girds do you have that you can spare a couple on a CASTER??

How many people do you guys think have a dozen or so girds?

The powergamers play in a different world, and their advice really only applies to that world. It's almost pointless for them to come down and offer advice to the masses.

Edit: This probably sounded insulting, but I didn't mean it to be... However, it is true than having unlimited plat and tons of rare gear skews your perception of the game.



Dktr,

From your comments involving total spell points, spell points used during quests, quest durations and lack of knowledge of end game encounters and valuable uses of such spells as acid fog it is clear you are still a very rookish caster. Further, since many seasoned casters have weighed in and tried to point out what seems to us is the obvious, "It is foolish to waste a very useful spell slot on a spell that is easily scroll'able" .

From the description of your play style (spell points used, not used, and wasted) it seems to me that you come up very short as a caster during questing and attempt to buy off good will with your party members by spamming buffs (be they needed or not). In all honesty, a party would be better off filling the slot with another DPS than picking up such a caster.

Seriously, freakin' asinine.

Hopefully the OP found help here and can make this incredibly crucial Greater Heroism decision which is apparently the end-all-be-all dividing line between being uber and being lame.

[Dktr]

Dktr,

From your comments involving total spell points, spell points used during quests, quest durations and lack of knowledge of end game encounters and valuable uses of such spells as acid fog it is clear you are still a very rookish caster. Further, since many seasoned casters have weighed in and tried to point out what seems to us is the obvious, "It is foolish to waste a very useful spell slot on a spell that is easily scroll'able" .

From the description of your play style (spell points used, not used, and wasted) it seems to me that you come up very short as a caster during questing and attempt to buy off good will with your party members by spamming buffs (be they needed or not). In all honesty, a party would be better off filling the slot with another DPS than picking up such a caster.


now, you see Tinyelvis .. this is exactly what I was thinking in regards to you... I can tell from your posts that you have not played other classes.. Clerics, Wizards, and Bards have far fewer spell points than sorcerers... You seem to rely heavily on other classes to make up for your poor playstyle. My sorcerer is self-sufficient and doesn't need to rely on other classes to do what he can do easily...

[juniorpfactors]

Man, how many girds do you have that you can spare a couple on a CASTER??

How many people do you guys think have a dozen or so girds?

The powergamers play in a different world, and their advice really only applies to that world. It's almost pointless for them to come down and offer advice to the masses.

Edit: This probably sounded insulting, but I didn't mean it to be... However, it is true than having unlimited plat and tons of rare gear skews your perception of the game.

I have 17 girds... every toon has 2, and one has 3

a great farming run, in one day over a 3 hour span i pulled 5

jrp

[Thrudh]

Dktr,

From your comments involving total spell points, spell points used during quests, quest durations and lack of knowledge of end game encounters and valuable uses of such spells as acid fog it is clear you are still a very rookish caster. Further, since many seasoned casters have weighed in and tried to point out what seems to us is the obvious, "It is foolish to waste a very useful spell slot on a spell that is easily scroll'able" , I can conclude that you are just too stubborn to admit the validity of this point.

From the description of your play style (spell points used, not used, and wasted) it seems to me that you come up very short as a caster during questing and attempt to buy off good will with your party members by spamming buffs (be they needed or not). In all honesty, a party would be better off filling the slot with another DPS than picking up such a caster.

All I know is, in most PUGs, better safe than sorry... My wizard hits everyone with GH and blur, and I don't worry if it's needed or not. Most people are appreciative.

I think most people would rather roll with a wizard like me, than a sorc who assumes that if you need/want GH, you're gimp.

[juniorpfactors]

Drop Empower and pick up Enlarge. You will have better mana efficiency using just maximize and actually do more damage by a significant amount in situations where you plan to use all of your mana (i.e. end boss fights). Also, I found it made my forgetful life easier not having to worry about switching Empower on and off.

when and why would you ever turn off empower,,, I just dont understand the above comments, jrp is very confused, enlarge... I cant really think why I would really ever need that

jrp

[Thrudh]

I have 17 girds... every toon has 2, and one has 3

a great farming run, in one day over a 3 hour span i pulled 5

jrp

Heh, I've been playing for almost 3 years and I only have 3 (one each on my barbarian, and my two clerics).

Took me a week of farming it to get one... I bought the other two... You really should have bought a lottery ticket that day you pulled FIVE (!!!!) in 3 hours...

I'm also the guy who did 200 Bloodstone runs and never pulled one. I had to buy the two I own.

(Thank God for the Shroud and selling large ingrediants to power-gamers, otherwise I wouldn't have any good gear at all)

[Dktr]

All I know is, in most PUGs, better safe than sorry... My wizard hits everyone with GH and blur, and I don't worry if it's needed or not. Most people are appreciative.

I think most people would rather roll with a wizard like me, than a sorc who assumes that if you need/want GH, you're gimp.

I run with a static group, and we divide up the buffs among us.. clerics pass resists, sorc passes gh, bard passes blur/displacement, wizard passes stoneskin.. or some combo thereof....

[Thrudh]

when and why would you ever turn off empower,,, I just dont understand the above comments, jrp is very confused, enlarge... I cant really think why I would really ever need that

jrp

Maybe not so much now in current end-game, but you've obviously never killed a beholder outside its anti-magic range before it even knew you were there (Invaders or VON 3 anyone?)

[Samadhi]

I run with a static group, and we divide up the buffs among us.. clerics pass resists, sorc passes gh, bard passes blur/displacement, wizard passes stoneskin.. or some combo thereof....

Curiosity question - are you aware how little GH stacks with bard songs?

[Dktr]

Curiosity question - are you aware how little GH stacks with bard songs?

again bard songs last what 7 minutes.. extended greater hero lasts 32 minutes... Greater Hero is really something I keep on myself at all times not only for the boost to umd, but also for the boost to haggle.. again, I designed my sorcerer to be self-sufficient and not needing to rely on clerics/wizards/bards to do things I can do for myself...

[QuintonReece]

Again, Again, Again... The reason not to scroll greater hero, and to keep it memmed is: if you are a fleshy caster, it is a spell you are going to cast all the time, it helps with the umd skill.... DUDE it would help just as much from a scroll...The other sixth level spells are spells you are going to cast in certain situations. You might as well be scrolling haste and saving yourself a 3rd level spell slot.. No, hate only lasts about 3 min when extended. And its usually cast by the bard when available. Heck, haste scrolls are even cheaper than greater hero scrolls, and just think of all the mana you can save by not casting haste.......

As far as poor playing by having mana left over on my sorc.. My sorc has 2400 spell points, my wizard has 1590, my cleric Dktr has 1750, my cleric Dctor has 1710... My sorc has at least 650 more spell points than any of my other casting toons... if you can't spare a couple spell points for greater hero, then your play needs to be re-evaluated. If you ever pug with me, I promise you .. your toon will not be appreciated, COME TO ARGO AND LETS TEST THAT THEORY my sorc can not only kill... he can heal.. he saves himself mana, he saves the clerics mana, and he takes the mobs down..

Fyi Toxn: I'm sure the tanks just love you when you throw up your acid fog (which they likely can not see through)... the fog then draws up a ton of aggro and doesn't kill anything.. now, the tanks get to chase down the mobs which ae chasing you .... and the clerics have to scramble to keep you healed while you run around like a jackrabbit on crack trying to slowly cast up another acid fog.... Ummmmmmmmmm, who said I carry acid fog..... I don't. Now don't you look like you ASSumed!

Not only can you save $$ by keep greater hero memmed, you can also save action points .. because in order to make acid fog anything worthwhile, you also have to invest action points that could be better spent elsewhere... Once again, no action points spent on Acid stuff here. And end game if u cant afford GH scrolls YOU NEED TO RE-ROLL.


okay let's look at this from a plat standpoint... it's been a long time since I've purchased greater hero scrolls; I imagine since it's a 6th level spell it would cost the same as a stack of heal scrolls.. so 150,000 gold (+/-) depending on your haggle skill....No haggle item or points spent in haggle - about 16k pp. Close to what u are saying. it costs 125,000 gold to swap a 6th level spell at the trainer.... Why would you?


Greater Hero is useful in every quest/situation. Which, ONCE AGAIN, is why I carry the scrolls to each quest. What tank doesn't want +4 to attack? Even with Power Attack on my tank doesnt need +4 to hit. What rogue doesn't want +4 to their skills?.. One thats built correctly. And has a planar gird or umd's the SCROLL What cleric doesn't want +4 to haggle? One with a gird. How much do u really think +4 haggle on a cleric is gonna help LMAO :rolleyes: Who doesn't want +4 to their saves? Those with other means to cast the spell. All my toons. In other words, I would go through a stack very quickly.. For my playstyle, I would go through a stack of gh scrolls in less than 3 days. Seriously doubt that. But, if u play that much you'd be considered a power gamer and be able to afford the scrolls without a second thought.

As I see it, it would be more economical to keep Greater Hero loaded and just swap the other spells at the trainer every 3 days to keep whichever spell you needed for that quest loaded.... Sorry guys I cant run that quest for 3 more days because the spell I need cant be changed till then. You would be saving at least 25,000 gold... If you are so gimp that 25,000 GP is a lot to you at end game,... re-roll. even more if you haven't invested in the haggle skill....There is a 3 day timer on the raids, anyhow....OK guys, this week I'll do that raid but in three days when my timer is up, I'll switch to the other spells to do the other raid. In what world does that make sence? Not even in a fantasy world.


my argument is just that I think it is very silly to be scrolling a spell you will be casting all the time just to save a slot for a spell you will only be casting once in a very great while....Thus the reason people think you a noob. This is exactly the logic that sets u apart from someone more experienced.


Dktr,

From your comments involving total spell points, spell points used during quests, quest durations and lack of knowledge of end game encounters and valuable uses of such spells as acid fog it is clear you are still a very rookish caster. :eek::eek::eek: QFT :eek::eek::eek:Further, since many seasoned casters have weighed in and tried to point out what seems to us is the obvious, "It is foolish to waste a very useful spell slot on a spell that is easily scroll'able" , I can conclude that you are just too stubborn to admit the validity of this point. :rolleyes:True that! :rolleyes:

From the description of your play style (spell points used, not used, and wasted) it seems to me that you come up very short as a caster during questing and attempt to buy off good will with your party members by spamming buffs (be they needed or not). In all honesty, a party would be better off filling the slot with another DPS than picking up such a caster. /signed

Yet once again, the argument is not over whether this is a good spell. Only whether it needs to be memmed. Your arguements fall short, but then if u (at endgame) cant afford GH scrolls then your competence probably does too.

[Samadhi]

again bard songs last what 7 minutes.. extended greater hero lasts 32 minutes... Greater Hero is really something I keep on myself at all times not only for the boost to umd, but also for the boost to haggle.. again, I designed my sorcerer to be self-sufficient and not needing to rely on clerics/wizards/bards to do things I can do for myself...

Do your bards not refresh their songs?

And btw, this is literally the ninth post you mentioned the boost to haggle... Since haggle is let's say "not too much" used in quests; having 32 minutes of it is irrelevant.

Anyhow; hopefully the OP learned something (get extend :D ); but it has become quite obvious you have no interest in even considering a different tactic - c'est la vie - every other poster is pretty much in agreement. Coincidance...

[Dktr]

Yet once again, the argument is not over whether this is a good spell. Only whether it needs to be memmed. Your arguements fall short, but then if u (at endgame) cant afford GH scrolls then your competence probably does too.

I have 2 capped clerics.. rest assured, my plat can be spent in better places rather than wasting it unnecessarily.

[Dktr]

Do your bards not refresh their songs?

And btw, this is literally the ninth post you mentioned the boost to haggle... Since haggle is let's say "not too much" used in quests; having 32 minutes of it is irrelevant.

Anyhow; hopefully the OP learned something (get extend :D ); but it has become quite obvious you have no interest in even considering a different tactic - c'est la vie - every other poster is pretty much in agreement. Coincidance...

fyi coincidance = coincidence

[Samadhi]

I have 2 capped clerics.. rest assured, my plat can be spent in better places rather than wasting it unnecessarily.

Lol, my cleric makes PILES more cash than he spends, although I freely admit I don't PUG him to suspect groups. Do you use your cleric's mana on a lot of buffs, even when not needed, as well?

[Samadhi]

fyi coincidance = coincidence

Thanks for insulting my spelling, but that was an homage to Robert Anton Wilson, you might want to check the forum guidelines on such behavior as well. I'm feeling much less bad for your obstinance compared to my earlier attempts to help. What server are you on?

[Dktr]

Do your bards not refresh their songs?

And btw, this is literally the ninth post you mentioned the boost to haggle... Since haggle is let's say "not too much" used in quests; having 32 minutes of it is irrelevant.

Anyhow; hopefully the OP learned something (get extend :D ); but it has become quite obvious you have no interest in even considering a different tactic - c'est la vie - every other poster is pretty much in agreement. Coincidance...

haggle is a very big deal to clerics. that is really something you should be keeping in mind when you complete a quest... especially, if the cleric was burning resources in the quest... refreshing a cleric's gh at the end of the quest and boosting his haggle (so they get a better return when they go to sell) is a courtesy. I imagine a self-centric power-gamer would not take this into consideration.

[Dktr]

Lol, my cleric makes PILES more cash than he spends, although I freely admit I don't PUG him to suspect groups. Do you use your cleric's mana on a lot of buffs, even when not needed, as well?

I would hardly call greater hero an unnecessary buff. I'm sure my cleric would know just what to do with your sorcerer's soulstone- it all comes down to mana conservation in the end. ;)

[Dktr]

Yet once again, the argument is not over whether this is a good spell. Only whether it needs to be memmed. Your arguements fall short, but then if u (at endgame) cant afford GH scrolls then your competence probably does too.

Good Point. However, if you look at every post with people arguing that greater hero should be scrolled- you will find that not all of them are using acid fog, not all of them are using reconstruct, not all of them are using disintegrate, not all of them are using flesh to stone. There are sorcerers out there not using these so called essential must have spells and getting along just fine without them. The one common denominator- they are all using greater hero (they're just scrolling it). My argument is why scroll it when you can keep it memmed. Save yourself the $$.

[gfunk]

If you are capped and mostly running end game content then I agree (with most people in this thread), GH on a scroll is quite sufficient. I suppose it depends to some extent on what content you are running, and who you are running with.

The only reason I currently have GH mem'd on my sorc currently is because I'm running a fair amount of VOD recently, with runs taking from 18 to 30 minutes (and I'm not currently running through the refuge quests much atm, so I don't currently need FTS). With the cool down time, its a bit difficult to ensure every1 is rebuffed part way through VOD (because as a sorc you are probably dealing with webs, and warforged repair).

Thats really only true in a pug group though, where you don't know everyone. In a guild group, you generally know who has and who does not have a gird so it makes it a bit more practical to rebuff part ways through. That said, it's not really a very neccesary spell in VOD, especially if you have bard songs which mostly over-write GH (and if you are a tank and you have problems hitting, you can always poor man it and drink heroism pots).

As for other quests that I run as a capped sorc

1) Hound if the quest takes longer then 11 minutes you have probably already failed (you just don't know it yet), plus there isn't much point casting gh after the beholders come out (at around 5 minutes in).

2) Shroud part 1. No one needs gh, portals get missed on a 1 regardless. In
part's 2,4 and 5 a 11 minute GH should suffice. Part 3, gh is not needed.

3) Vale quests. No one else needs GH because as a capped sorc you can just kill everything before it gets to them... sorta kidding about that, but with the exception of coalesence chamber, the quests are only 15 minutes.

4) SoS: each part is maybe 5 to 10 minutes, so 11 minute scrolls work great in this quest.

5) Other refuge quests: honestly I only have run these quests with people who are already quite self sufficient, so buffing hasn't been needed. Most of the people who have progressed far enough in the game to get here can get around having GH cast on them (i.e. either it's not really needed or they can cast it themselves). I generally don't even bother with GH on my melees, except for sometimes on the end fights of kobold and prey.

6) Necro and other lowbie stuff: here is your sorcerer mantra: buff no-one, kill everything.. muahhahhahha

That said, if you are not yet capped and you are running lower level content that takes 30 minutes to an hour then I think it is quite reasonable to have GH mem'd

[Mhykke]

Good Point. However, if you look at every post with people arguing that greater hero should be scrolled- you will find that not all of them are using acid fog, not all of them are using reconstruct, not all of them are using disintegrate, not all of them are using flesh to stone. There are sorcerers out there not using these so called essential must have spells and getting along just fine without them. The one common denominator- they are all using greater hero (they're just scrolling it). My argument is why scroll it when you can keep it memmed. Save yourself the $$.

Someone pointed out above.

The reason is b/c GH from a scroll is as effective as casting the spell (not as long, but as effective, you get the same benefit.) The spells you mention above from a scroll:

Acid fog: can't buy scrolls
Reconstruct: Time to recast too long, as well as not affected by potency
Disintegrate: DC Sucks
Flesh to Stone: DC Sucks

So the people that are choosing to scroll GH have decided that they'd rather mem a spell that is more effective than if cast from a scroll, whereas they aren't losing anything other than time by scrolling GH (but still getting 11 minutes a pop, which is pretty long as is.)

[nbhs275]

bad gimped toons , every toon at level 16 should have their own planar gird if not 2, and should have crafted gs fear immunity poison item, but yes I carry GH, if your really in a frenzy of GH go farm 3 or 4 planar girds and buff those beggars off those

SF: Enchantment, GSF: Enchantment, SF: Illusion DUMP these imho, Empower (must) extend, Necromancy :) if your human fit in UMD to hit 39-40 for Heal scrolls and Greater Restorations

jrp


Um, so your saying every melee toon needs to have 2+ girds, which have a drop rate of about 1 in 100, and that everycharacter should waste a GS item on two immunities that can be covered by a simple buff and a potion.....yea, great advice there junior.

[Vengenance]

again bard songs last what 7 minutes.. extended greater hero lasts 32 minutes... Greater Hero is really something I keep on myself at all times not only for the boost to umd, but also for the boost to haggle.. again, I designed my sorcerer to be self-sufficient and not needing to rely on clerics/wizards/bards to do things I can do for myself...


You roll a 1, failed save against gimpiness. It's your character so play him as you like, gimped or not, but please stop trying to justify the benefits of using the spell over the scroll, because there are none. Hey, if you want to waste spell points on casting the spell, and even more spell points by extending it, then I say go ahead, more power *cough gimpiness* to you.

[gfunk]

as to why i would carry the other spells, none of the other spells that a sorc might commonly take are effective off scrolls:

1) reconstruct: not quick enough off of a scroll to keep a tank up.. I like having it for VOD and Shroud.
2) flesh to stone: useful in quests with death block giants
3) acid fog: useful for soloing, crowd control
4) disintigrate: depending on your other repetoire this might be needed for crystal killing duty. It also works well on living spells, and quick kills of skeletons.
5) mass suggestion: useful for soloing some content, I personally don't like it at end game, but some do so ill include it.

For end game content I would rather have 3 of the above then a mem'd GH. Having the capability to scroll GH essential pads out your 6th level repetoire to 4 spells. There isn't anything else you can replace to get to that level of versatility.

[Dktr]

You roll a 1, failed save against gimpiness. It's your character so play him as you like, gimped or not, but please stop trying to justify the benefits of using the spell over the scroll, because there are none. Hey, if you want to waste spell points on casting the spell, and even more spell points by extending it, then I say go ahead, more power *cough gimpiness* to you.

since when does a sorcerer need to worry about wasting spell points? they have more mana than any other casting class in the game.

[Vengenance]

when and why would you ever turn off empower,,, I just dont understand the above comments, jrp is very confused, enlarge... I cant really think why I would really ever need that

jrp

Enlarge is a great feat, but I agree, max and empower are better feats. Enlarge is very useful against Sorjeck and while soloing, FOD from a long ways off is great. Nice to use on beholders, but not better than empower. If I were human, I'd have enlarge as my bonus feat.

[Dktr]

as to why i would carry the other spells, none of the other spells that a sorc might commonly take are effective off scrolls:

1) reconstruct: not quick enough off of a scroll to keep a tank up.. I like having it for VOD and Shroud.
2) flesh to stone: useful in quests with death block giants
3) acid fog: useful for soloing, crowd control
4) disintigrate: depending on your other repetoire this might be needed for crystal killing duty. It also works well on living spells, and quick kills of skeletons.
5) mass suggestion: useful for soloing some content, I personally don't like it at end game, but some do so ill include it.

For end game content I would rather have 3 of the above then a mem'd GH. Having the capability to scroll GH essential pads out your 6th level repetoire to 4 spells. There isn't anything else you can replace to get to that level of versatility.

no, you are right- they are not effective off scrolls.. some of them in fact are only useful in very specific situations, or they can be mimicked through other spell choices. Greater Hero on the other hand- always useful.

[Mhykke]

no, you are right- they are not effective off scrolls.. some of them in fact are only useful in very specific situations, or they can be mimicked through other spell choices. Greater Hero on the other hand- always useful.

And when that specific situation arises, you don't have the spell (casting those from scrolls is useless, b/c the DC's and spell pens are terrible)....

Greater heroism, always useful, true, but irrelevant. Nobody is questioning the usefulness of GH. GH from a scroll, just as effective, the benefits aren't weaker from the scroll than from the spell.

[Tanka]

Maybe not so much now in current end-game, but you've obviously never killed a beholder outside its anti-magic range before it even knew you were there (Invaders or VON 3 anyone?)
Even with zero Hide/Move Silently, you can enter stealth mode, move in and PK/FoD them before they turn on their antimagic field. It's my modus operandi when in VoN2-3 and TS.

[Dktr]

I have a capped wizard as well. I have played around with spell choices.. I even for a while changed all my enhancements around to be lightning/acid specced as opposed to fire/ice specced. I have done my share of playing with 6th level spell choices. In my experience, a lot of the 6th level spells collect dust on my taskbar unless I'm running the specific quest they are required in. Greater Hero- this is never the case. Even if I'm not casting it on the party; I'm at least casting it on myself..... It just seems very silly to me to scroll a spell that is cast regularly to keep a slot open for a spell that is used situationally.....

[Thrudh]

Most of the people who have progressed far enough in the game to get here can get around having GH cast on them (i.e. either it's not really needed or they can cast it themselves). I generally don't even bother with GH on my melees, except for sometimes on the end fights of kobold and prey.

You know what's interesting?? I picked up three planar girds (cost me a lot of money), because I noticed some casters were not casting GH anymore. Both my clerics and barbarian (especially my evasion cleric) can definitely use the +4 to saves. My battle-cleric can even benefit from the +4 to hit.

You know what else? I still get just a tiny bit angry everytime I have to use those girds instead of having a wizard/sorc/bard cast it on me. I like having the gird as a backup in case my spells get stripped (or they run out of time) or if there's no caster in the group. But to cast all my cleric buffs, and then watch the sorc buff only himself is pretty annoying (worse now that I know the sorc thinks I'm a poor player for buffing the group since "they don't really need it")

[Mhykke]

It just seems very silly to me to scroll a spell that is cast regularly to keep a slot open for a spell that is used situationally.....

I can see where you're coming from, and I don't think it's a terrible choice to choose the spell....but on the flip side, it seems silly to me that when the occasion arises for that "situational" spell to be used, the sorc does not have the option to cast it b/c he instead chose a spell that if he had on a scroll, would be equally as effective. The key difference you're ignoring is that, while yes, the other spells are situational, they are completely ineffective off of a scroll when those situations arise. GH, on the other hand, confers no less benefit, other than time, when cast off of a scroll. And the time portion is not really a big limiting factor, considering that off of a scroll one still gets 11 minutes of the spell.

[Mhykke]

You know what's interesting?? I picked up three planar girds (cost me a lot of money), because I noticed some casters were not casting GH anymore. Both my clerics and barbarian (especially my evasion cleric) can definitely use the +4 to saves. My battle-cleric can even benefit from the +4 to hit.

You know what else? I still get just a tiny bit angry everytime I have to use those girds instead of having a wizard/sorc/bard cast it on me. I like having the gird as a backup in case my spells get stripped (or they run out of time) or if there's no caster in the group. But to cast all my cleric buffs, and then watch the sorc buff only himself is pretty annoying (worse now that I know the sorc thinks I'm a poor player for buffing the group since "they don't really need it")

If I were you, I'd transfer the girds off of your cleric. It's a rare caster that will refuse a cleric's request for haste. The vast majority know enough that groups cannot risk the cleric becoming feared/failing saves, etc.

[Barumar]

You know what's interesting?? I picked up three planar girds (cost me a lot of money), because I noticed some casters were not casting GH anymore. Both my clerics and barbarian (especially my evasion cleric) can definitely use the +4 to saves. My battle-cleric can even benefit from the +4 to hit.

You know what else? I still get just a tiny bit angry everytime I have to use those girds instead of having a wizard/sorc/bard cast it on me. I like having the gird as a backup in case my spells get stripped (or they run out of time) or if there's no caster in the group. But to cast all my cleric buffs, and then watch the sorc buff only himself is pretty annoying (worse now that I know the sorc thinks I'm a poor player for buffing the group since "they don't really need it")

I have been on the fence of this one, and was going to stay out of it as the OP got the info he wanted about feats - and I think saw the light about Extend, but you bring up a good point about a Caster doing his part towards group buffing.

I recently swapped GH for Acid Fog on my Sorcy, but carry a nice stack of Scrolls. I normally start any quest be typing "GH, Blur, and Stoning" the party. Now I merely say glad to GH anyone who wants it, and go ahead and blur anyone who is not already so. Stone I cast also, but may switch to Wands as I am thinking of swapping that out next. I also ask if anyone needs a resist. I do NOT carry mass Protects, but like it when the Cleric casts it.

I am a firm believer that every caster should do their part towards buffing the party! If I run a group with only one cleric and there is a second sorcy or wizi (or a Bard) I like to see the group share the buffs and save the one Clerics mana for healing - which I am also glad to help with (when not busy nuking) because I can!

As far as post quest, I am quite willing to GH my fellow party members, but when playing my Bard I will GH and IC them as well. I can't tell you how many thanks I get for this, and when ever I am in the lowby tavern in the marketplace, I do the same to random people I encounter there. Also, Jump, Tumble, Haste are a lot of fun for low level characters- and I see a LOT of them hippity hopping around while standing at the AH guy bidding on cookies & cakes :D

Barumar (Zebadiah, Shesso) of Khyber

[gfunk]

You know what's interesting?? I picked up three planar girds (cost me a lot of money), because I noticed some casters were not casting GH anymore. Both my clerics and barbarian (especially my evasion cleric) can definitely use the +4 to saves. My battle-cleric can even benefit from the +4 to hit.

You know what else? I still get just a tiny bit angry everytime I have to use those girds instead of having a wizard/sorc/bard cast it on me. I like having the gird as a backup in case my spells get stripped (or they run out of time) or if there's no caster in the group. But to cast all my cleric buffs, and then watch the sorc buff only himself is pretty annoying (worse now that I know the sorc thinks I'm a poor player for buffing the group since "they don't really need it")

sorry, didn't quite mean it that way... maybe the flavor of what i am saying wasn't really coming across.

I meant my melees don't always cast it on themselves because its not a rubber stamp requirement for all quests... I mean they are going to hit the mobs all the time and make their saves anyways in alot of quests. When im running my sorc, I always ask if anyone needs it (and I make sure they have blur, the appropriate resists, sometimes jump, and often displacement.. when i know a battle is coming up).

[Dktr]

I can see where you're coming from, and I don't think it's a terrible choice to choose the spell....but on the flip side, it seems silly to me that when the occasion arises for that "situational" spell to be used, the sorc does not have the option to cast it b/c he instead chose a spell that if he had on a scroll, would be equally as effective. The key difference you're ignoring is that, while yes, the other spells are situational, they are completely ineffective off of a scroll when those situations arise. GH, on the other hand, confers no less benefit, other than time, when cast off of a scroll. And the time portion is not really a big limiting factor, considering that off of a scroll one still gets 11 minutes of the spell.

I may have an advantage over a lot of other sorc's... in that if I don't have that situational spell on my sorcerer- I can always go grab my wizard. My wizard though collects as much dust as those situational spells do because it is so rare that I need those situational spells...lol

[Dktr]

You know what's interesting?? I picked up three planar girds (cost me a lot of money), because I noticed some casters were not casting GH anymore. Both my clerics and barbarian (especially my evasion cleric) can definitely use the +4 to saves. My battle-cleric can even benefit from the +4 to hit.

You know what else? I still get just a tiny bit angry everytime I have to use those girds instead of having a wizard/sorc/bard cast it on me. I like having the gird as a backup in case my spells get stripped (or they run out of time) or if there's no caster in the group. But to cast all my cleric buffs, and then watch the sorc buff only himself is pretty annoying (worse now that I know the sorc thinks I'm a poor player for buffing the group since "they don't really need it")


I keep girds on my clerics as well for that very same reason. My cleric Dctor is umd specced (I like to teleport and cast cold shield on myself for the Shroud and VOD). The casters in my guild are very good about passing gh, but I don't like to pug him ... just for the condescending attitudes some players have toward buffs ...

[Vengenance]

You know what's interesting?? I picked up three planar girds (cost me a lot of money), because I noticed some casters were not casting GH anymore. Both my clerics and barbarian (especially my evasion cleric) can definitely use the +4 to saves. My battle-cleric can even benefit from the +4 to hit.

You know what else? I still get just a tiny bit angry everytime I have to use those girds instead of having a wizard/sorc/bard cast it on me. I like having the gird as a backup in case my spells get stripped (or they run out of time) or if there's no caster in the group. But to cast all my cleric buffs, and then watch the sorc buff only himself is pretty annoying (worse now that I know the sorc thinks I'm a poor player for buffing the group since "they don't really need it")

*waaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh*Do you need to be babysat and bottle fed at the same time. If you need a buff, man up and ask for it, most sorcs will gladly cast a spell on you if you need it, but nothing is more frustrating than casting a resist on someone who's wearing a greater resist item, or casting blur on someone who has a perma blur item, it's a waste of spell points and time.

My sorc never just buffs people anymore, if someone needs something and asks for it I'll gladly give it out, but I never just buff for the sake of buffing. It's not my job to babysit anyone, and if you get into a part and don't have an essential buff that you need. Take respsonsiblity for your characters and make sure you have the buffs that you need for the quests you're running. Nothing ****es me off more than when a fighter asks for a fire resist during part 4 of the shroud because they were to lazy to make sure they had it on before we went in. Don't blame casters for you ineptitude as a player.

[Dktr]

*waaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh*Do you need to be babysat and bottle fed at the same time. If you need a buff, man up and ask for it, most sorcs will gladly cast a spell on you if you need it, but nothing is more frustrating than casting a resist on someone who's wearing a greater resist item, or casting blur on someone who has a perma blur item, it's a waste of spell points and time.

My sorc never just buffs people anymore, if someone needs something and asks for it I'll gladly give it out, but I never just buff for the sake of buffing. It's not my job to babysit anyone, and if you get into a part and don't have an essential buff that you need. Take respsonsiblity for your characters and make sure you have the buffs that you need for the quests you're running. Nothing ****es me off more than when a fighter asks for a fire resist during part 4 of the shroud because they were to lazy to make sure they had it on before we went in. Don't blame casters for you ineptitude as a player.

maybe you should stick to soloing.

[Vengenance]

maybe you should stick to soloing.

Maybe you should roll a bard or wizzard since you obviously haven't grasped the concept that a sorc is a dps class.

Although I do find soloing fun and challenging, I have much more fun running with my guild or friends from one of the chat channels I'm in.

[Dktr]

Maybe you should roll a bard or wizzard since you obviously haven't grasped the concept that a sorc is a dps class.

Although I do find soloing fun and challenging, I have much more fun running with my guild or friends from one of the chat channels I'm in.

done and done. please review previous posts. let's play a game.. let's try to guess the relative ages of those posting in this thread..

Words to the Wise: Never argue with an idiot- they'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

[QuintonReece]

maybe you should stick to soloing.

Maybe you should stick to Xbox.

[Vengenance]

Words to the Wise: Never argue with an idiot

My thoughts exactly, I'll try to refrain from commenting on your future posts. FYI, I'm probably older than you, more mature than you, and based on your posts a much better player than you.

[Dktr]

My thoughts exactly, I'll try to refrain from commenting on your future posts. FYI, I'm probably older than you, more mature than you, and based on your posts a much better player than you.

you go right ahead and carry on believing that. Maybe Toxn can pass you a note in gym.

[QuintonReece]

Come to Argo, we can prove it

[Dktr]

Come to Argo, we can prove it

I think that I will resolve to deal with you in the same manner I would my 3 yr old niece when she's throwing a temper tantrum.. I'll let you snivel and scream while I carry on as if you're not there. Good luck in your future endeavors.

[QuintonReece]

I think that I will resolve to deal with you in the same manner I would my 3 yr old niece when she's throwing a temper tantrum.. I'll let you snivel and scream while I carry on as if you're not there. Good luck in your future endeavors.

LOL, stay out of the fire if u dont want to get burnt. Or in this case show yourself as totally inept.

[Lawrence_V._Sullivan]

now i play a wf sorc, and i agree that GH is definatly crucial to have in your "spellbook". if you dont have it then you are nothing but a noob like Quinton Reese.
there is no better spell in the game in that EVERYONE needs it, and they need it for 30 minutes to get from shrine to shrine.

[QuintonReece]

now i play a wf sorc, and i agree that GH is definatly crucial to have in your "spellbook". if you dont have it then you are nothing but a noob like Quinton Reese.
there is no better spell in the game in EVERYONE needs it, and they need it for 30 minutes to get from shrine to shrine. so all you *****es that keep picking on the RIGHT thinking guys can go eat a Johnsonville bratwurst

Noobsausage. lol

I should log into your account now and change out one of your spells for it. lol

You know I could. :D

[Lawrence_V._Sullivan]

so anyway, sarcasm aside, gh is not needed on anything but a scroll or gird. stop crying and just go put the better spells on your toon.

[unionyes]

Skipped over a lot of the back and forthing going on......

My sorc does very well tyvm with Max and Empower. I use my other feats for either Spell Points or Spell Penetration feats.

I carry GH, and cast it from manna instead of scrolls because I am a cheap player. I have this habit of sending plat to my lowbies to keep them in healing and equipment for soloing, and tend to not sell things but stick them in the bank in case I ever roll up a X toon. I seldom use scrolls for anything at all.

My Haste is long enough for when I am the only haster in the group. If there is a bard there, or a wizzie (and wizzies almost always have Extend, if they don't have it it is simply that they don't have it YET), let them haste. Drop a haste first, then let them chuckle about casting a REAL haste overtop of yours. After that, they are the hasters and you can us all your manna to kill stuff.

In a pug, I throw GH on everyone but other arcane casters, Stoneskin on everyone except other arcane casters, Blur on everyone that isn't blurred by the time I am done throwing GH and Stoneskin, and then ready to roll. If the other arcanes don't lay out their own buffs, I do it at the end. I always wait a sec, though, and if the wizzie starts to lay out buffs (and his are better than mine for sure, more of them loaded usually and he has extend) I wait to see what he didn't throw out and fill in any gaps I can.

At the end of the day, my perception of Wizzies is buffage, crowd control, and support DPS/Instakill. Bards are buffage, crowd control, and then it depends on the build, and Sorcs are backup buffers and DPS killers. Of course this is a generalization and not always true, but it's how I build my toons and most that I have seen follow that more or less.

The only Metamagic feat that I feel is more useless on a Sorc than Extend is Eschew Materials.

[Vua]

My thoughts exactly, I'll try to refrain from commenting on your future posts. FYI, I'm probably older than you, more mature than you, and based on your posts a much better player than you.

Yes. You must be very mature. We can tell from posts like this:

"*waaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh*Do you need to be babysat and bottle fed at the same time. If you need a buff, man up and ask for it, most sorcs will gladly cast a spell on you if you need it, but nothing is more frustrating than casting a resist on someone who's wearing a greater resist item, or casting blur on someone who has a perma blur item, it's a waste of spell points and time."

I'm sure you must be a third grader at least. It's funny how you guys judge someone a gimp over 1 level 6 spell. People that think this way are the same ones that won't enter a quest without a perfect party and everyone having W/P weapons. What a bunch of ********.

[Vengenance]

Yes. You must be very mature. We can tell from posts like this:

"*waaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh*Do you need to be babysat and bottle fed at the same time. If you need a buff, man up and ask for it, most sorcs will gladly cast a spell on you if you need it, but nothing is more frustrating than casting a resist on someone who's wearing a greater resist item, or casting blur on someone who has a perma blur item, it's a waste of spell points and time."

I'm sure you must be a third grader at least. It's funny how you guys judge someone a gimp over 1 level 6 spell. People that think this way are the same ones that won't enter a quest without a perfect party and everyone having W/P weapons. What a bunch of ********.

Reading comprehension for the win. Did you even read the context of my post, it was in response to the ridiculous post made by someone else crying about not getting his buffs. I stand by my original post that any sorc at end game that carries GH instead of another better spell is indeed a gimp or at the least ignorant since GH from scroll is just as effective as GH from spell.

Perfect group make-up means nothing to me, if you have skilled players in your group you can pretty much succeed in any quest.

Oh, and just for the record, I'm 35, out of school (high school & college), and fairly successful.

[Dktr]

*waaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh*Do you need to be babysat and bottle fed at the same time. If you need a buff, man up and ask for it, most sorcs will gladly cast a spell on you if you need it, but nothing is more frustrating than casting a resist on someone who's wearing a greater resist item, or casting blur on someone who has a perma blur item, it's a waste of spell points and time.

My sorc never just buffs people anymore, if someone needs something and asks for it I'll gladly give it out, but I never just buff for the sake of buffing. It's not my job to babysit anyone, and if you get into a part and don't have an essential buff that you need. Take respsonsiblity for your characters and make sure you have the buffs that you need for the quests you're running. Nothing ****es me off more than when a fighter asks for a fire resist during part 4 of the shroud because they were to lazy to make sure they had it on before we went in. Don't blame casters for you ineptitude as a player.


if you're 35, and you're making a post like this... then you are wearing a helmet. No adult would resort to this level of juvenile behavior to get their point across.

[QuintonReece]

if you're 35, and you're making a post like this... then you are wearing a helmet. No adult would resort to this level of juvenile behavior to get their point across.

And you're any better for saying stuff like this?

[QuintonReece]

you go right ahead and carry on believing that. Maybe Toxn can pass you a note in gym.

And stuff like this?

Not that I really care but.....
Don't pretend to be the moral high ground here.

[Vua]

Reading comprehension for the win. Did you even read the context of my post, it was in response to the ridiculous post made by someone else crying about not getting his buffs. I stand by my original post that any sorc at end game that carries GH instead of another better spell is indeed a gimp or at the least ignorant since GH from scroll is just as effective as GH from spell.

Perfect group make-up means nothing to me, if you have skilled players in your group you can pretty much succeed in any quest.

Oh, and just for the record, I'm 35, out of school (high school & college), and fairly successful.

I've read every post in this thread, and it was hard to decide between laughing at you people or crying because you're so pathetic. Having one spell that you think is useless to carry doesn't make someone gimp. It's someone like you that thinks you need only specific spells to succeed that I'd be afraid of.

You have a ranger with a splash of monk? An intimi-tank with evasion? Is your caster a WF? If not you must be gimp right. At least those are actual entire builds to look at before someone decides you're gimp.

And maturity isn't how old you are or even how successful. I had no problem comprehending why you wrote what you did. It doesn't make you mature because you waited for someone else to become immature first. Talk about no comprehension.

[Samadhi]

I've read every post in this thread, and it was hard to decide between laughing at you people or crying because you're so pathetic. Having one spell that you think is useless to carry doesn't make someone gimp. It's someone like you that thinks you need only specific spells to succeed that I'd be afraid of.

.

Now let's be fair here - most of the people making the assumption that a certain poster was gimp - were not making the assumption based on his spell selection. They were making the assumption based upon 1) the poor reasons he provided for his spell selection 2) his obstinacy in seeing any other POV and 3) his own rather unprofessional personal attacks.

[vainangel]

I only have extend
I took the CHR thingy for saves, and the Spell Pen Feats

Extend helps me out with my AoE Crowd Control spells and buffing the party.
I have found there is often enough DPS to not require me to Finger/Banish [i have banish not finger] anything.

I perf my Acid Fog, FW and CK to linger. Seems to save me SP.

[unionyes]

I only have extend
I took the CHR thingy for saves, and the Spell Pen Feats

Extend helps me out with my AoE Crowd Control spells and buffing the party.
I have found there is often enough DPS to not require me to Finger/Banish [i have banish not finger] anything.

I perf my Acid Fog, FW and CK to linger. Seems to save me SP.

Thanks Vain, but this thread has changed from a discussion of feats to a mudslinging, name calling, cheap shot contest. Put on some popcorn and enjoy the show. And pray to whatever god you believe in that one day the technology will be available so that people who talk smack anonymously over the internet can be plucked up from wherever they are and dropped into a steel cage so they can duke it out.

[vainangel]

Thanks Vain, but this thread has changed from a discussion of feats to a mudslinging, name calling, cheap shot contest. Put on some popcorn and enjoy the show. And pray to whatever god you believe in that one day the technology will be available so that people who talk smack anonymously over the internet can be plucked up from wherever they are and dropped into a steel cage so they can duke it out.

oh... srry
I only gen read the op and a few others.
Reading over the whole thing now.

[Blind_Skwerl]

btw a little math for you JUS useign haste for this example...

haste costs 20 SP normaly 30 extended(assumign no extend discounts) sooo having extend saves you 10 SP per 3m18s at minimum.
MT gives you 85sp
it takes 8 hastes to start to get ahead on efective SP provided by the feat ok thats 27min, assumgin a little overlap betwene shrines that seams like a long time and IS with just haste considered BUT as soon as you add any of the other short term buff in it adds up FAST, displacment say, VERY applicable to VoD where discacment on every one is GOD mode for all the cleaves have 50% miss chance... but we can use any quest you hit a area where displacmetn on most fo the group would be good ok your gona hti your self and 3 others hopeign the other 2 stay out of the way now ove the next 3m you will save 50SP and not have to refresh it al all wich mena mroe time to do other stuff, do that twice between shrines, ad din a coupel Fire sheilds for your self and 1 rage, and you have saved in those 6 mins 130SP but useign extend over the 85 that MT gave you....
Lets not even get started on when Extending a max/emped Wall of fire is good that can save you upwards of 50SP per CAST!!

Minor note for VoD, Extending a toen of Displacments/webs/fogs(acid/solid/ck[for the 20% miss])/haste is purtly much the way to make that quest easy mode, you can save more SP the MT gave you in the firts pass of buffing/layig down a little CC, (12 displacments 120SP, 1haste 10sp, 1 rage 10sp, 1web 5sp, 1 fire shield cold 15sp, 1acid fog[assumign max/emp off] 25sp= 185sp saved!!!! take that MT 85 SP heck you just saved more the MT&IMT combined!!!! and your not recastign stuff near as much wich frees you up for more UMDign heal scrolsl to help the clerics :) )


All valid points. I am never at a shortage for sp however, so the conservation of it is not of importance to me. The time spent re-buffing/AOEing vs. nuking/insta-killing is the bigger concern. That's where I could possibly be swayed to get extend. Usually any end-boss type encounters start out with a fresh round of buffs for everyone and don't last too long (last Vellah run, a 30 second haste clickie would have worked fine). As for the regular content I don't buff hardly at all anymore. GH, blur, jump, maybe an elemental prot, haste and go. In the shroud it would be nice, but otherwise I am fine hitting the haste again in a bit.

[drachine]

My sorc is my second oldest character. He is a drow with 36 CHA and a hodge podge of other stats.

For feats he has: Maximize, Heighten, Spell Pen, SF: Enchantment, GSF: Enchantment, SF: Illusion

For enhancements he has: spell pen 3, fire 4, fire crit 2, other fire crit 2 and other assorted stuff I can't remember off the top of my head.

As far as feats, the 6th most important feats for me as a Sorcerer are: Maximize, Heighten, Empower, Extend, Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration. Beyond that, it's a personal choice for me. Enhancements are personal choice.

Maximize/Empower: you want your damage spells to hit as hard as possible. Ball Lightning and bam your dead.

Extend is a personal choice not really for Haste, but I want my Web, Fire Shield, Melf's Acid Arrow, Hypnotism, Glitterdust and Displacement spells to last a long time. I could care less about Haste..

Heighten is a personal choice if you run more buffs then you don't need this. If you want more control, then this is a must.

Greater Spell Penetration simply because there is a lot of Spell Resistance out there and you ahve to punch through it.


He is at 2055sp and can last between most shrines okay. He is a little fragile and low on HP but I have a plan to get him up to 250.

There are two things that I have seen lately that make me wonder... one is the increased requests for greater heroism (which I only have on scrolls) and I've also been told that I MUST have extend to go with my haste spell.

It is usually only a complaint from people who won't wait for my slow butt to catch up and rehaste the group, which I am happy to do.

So what do you all think? (Both about my general enchanter build and the "extend requirement".)

Thanks. :D

The hit point issue is a must fix. Make a Shroud item. My caster made smoke bracers that give her an extra 45 hit points. She is drow and at 291 hit points with a +6 con item and greater false life item.

Greater Heroism is not at all necessary for a Sorcerer. I will never carry it. If people must have it then tell them to talk the bard. If there is no bard then offer a scroll, if they are not happy with that then I tell them to shut up and stop b***ing.

I question going enchanter on a Sorcerer because people generally look for a Wizard to fill the Enchanter roll more. As a sorcerer people have a right in my opinion to expect good crowd control and good dps. Beyond that, charming, debuffs, or buffs are a bonus. The only buffs I carry on my sorc are Displacement and Haste. I always let people know this up front.

[Vengenance]

I've read every post in this thread, and it was hard to decide between laughing at you people or crying because you're so pathetic. Having one spell that you think is useless to carry doesn't make someone gimp. It's someone like you that thinks you need only specific spells to succeed that I'd be afraid of.

I agree, there are many useless spells and GH isn't one of them. It's a very good spell, but it's just as effective from a scroll as it is when it's cast, which means a good sorc will use their third 6th level spell for a better spell. Having GH in your spell book as a sorc does IMO make you a gimp.



You have a ranger with a splash of monk? An intimi-tank with evasion? Is your caster a WF? If not you must be gimp right. At least those are actual entire builds to look at before someone decides you're gimp.

Huh, I don't quite understand where all of this is coming from, but w/e. Just for the record my sorc is a drow with 39 Char at the moment (20 base +4 level +3 tome + 3 enhancement + 9 shroud item).



And maturity isn't how old you are or even how successful. I had no problem comprehending why you wrote what you did. It doesn't make you mature because you waited for someone else to become immature first. Talk about no comprehension.

/yawn

[Thrudh]

Having GH in your spell book as a sorc does IMO make you a gimp.

Heh, you're clueless... It's worse, because you think you're uber.

You are the worst kind of player that MMOs seem to attract. You actually wrote that someone is gimp because they have GH as a spell.

So anyone who is not absolutely optimal is gimp.... You either need a dictionary or a new attitude.

[Samadhi]

Heh, you're clueless... It's worse, because you think you're uber.

You are the worst kind of player that MMOs seem to attract. You actually wrote that someone is gimp because they have GH as a spell.

So anyone who is not absolutely optimal is gimp.... You either need a dictionary or a new attitude.

Not really trying to defend him, but let's compare...

1) Someone that does something sub-optimal (or many things sub-optimal) for the flavor of their character.

2) Someone who insists that their build decision IS optimal when 99% of the population disagrees with them.

IMO, these are too very different beasts.

[Thrudh]

Not really trying to defend him, but let's compare...

1) Someone that does something sub-optimal (or many things sub-optimal) for the flavor of their character.

2) Someone who insists that their build decision IS optimal when 99% of the population disagrees with them.

IMO, these are too very different beasts.

True enough, but I don't think the other poster was trying to defend his choice as "optimal".

There ARE reasons to use GH as a spell... Cost and convenience... Scrolling it is better (in absolute terms), but it certainly doesn't a gimp a sorc to give up a situational spell for GH. In most quests, he'll be exactly as good as a sorc who has that extra spell (because it isn't needed). In those quests where that extra spell IS used, he'll probably be 95-98% as effective as the sorc who has the situational spell.

Here's the interesting thing I've noticed.... Sorcs who carry the GH spell usually cast it on the whole party. Sorcs who scroll it don't cast it unless you ask for it. The group of you rabidly defending scroll use and stating costs don't matter, sure seem to be a lot less generous in practice.

[Dktr]

Not really trying to defend him, but let's compare...

1) Someone that does something sub-optimal (or many things sub-optimal) for the flavor of their character.

2) Someone who insists that their build decision IS optimal when 99% of the population disagrees with them.

IMO, these are too very different beasts.

Samadhi, I think you are reacting to my calling you out on your spelling. I really think you should go back and re-read this thread from start to finish. I certainly would not say that 99% of the population agrees with you. However, I would say you have two very vocal 13 yr old kids that agree with you. The adults posting on this thread (even if they disagree) at least see my point.

Fyi- The OP (or any other new sorcerer reading this thread) may very well be a casual player and may not have the plat or the resources to invest in planar girds or stacks of scrolls; also, they may not wish to farm for these things. Not every person playing is a power player.

[Dktr]

True enough, but I don't think the other poster was trying to defend his choice as "optimal".

There ARE reasons to use GH as a spell... Cost and convenience... Scrolling it is better (in absolute terms), but it certainly doesn't a gimp a sorc to give up a situational spell for GH. In most quests, he'll be exactly as good as a sorc who has that extra spell (because it isn't needed). In those quests where that extra spell IS used, he'll probably be 95-98% as effective as the sorc who has the situational spell.

Here's the interesting thing I've noticed.... Sorcs who carry the GH spell usually cast it on the whole party. Sorcs who scroll it don't cast it unless you ask for it. The group of you rabidly defending scroll use and stating costs don't matter, sure seem to be a lot less generous in practice.


very well put.

[QuintonReece]

Samadhi, I think you are reacting to my calling you out on your spelling. I really think you should go back and re-read this thread from start to finish. I certainly would not say that 99% of the population agrees with you. However, I would say you have two very vocal 13 yr old kids that agree with you. The adults posting on this thread (even if they disagree) at least see my point.

Fyi- The OP (or any other new sorcerer reading this thread) may very well be a casual player and may not have the plat or the resources to invest in planar girds or stacks of scrolls; also, they may not wish to farm for these things. Not every person playing is a power player.

Ok, Dktr. I was gonna let this die but before I do ....
Your attempt at an insult is weak at best(but then your playstyle probably is too since u cant see the point we are attempting to make.)

I've never stated that your point(trying to be cheap) on casting scrolls is invalid, just that at endgame it inconsequential. Scrolls are not that expensive and plat is easy to come by at endgame. Plus at endgame most people(smart players, not necessarily powergamers) are self sufficient in one way or another. My point is that I believe a sorc isn't (NORMALLY) a buffing toon and therefore the spell slot was better saved for something else since a scroll would do just fine ''when needed.''

The fact that you can't and won't concede the point just shows your immaturity. You are in the minority on this debate.

If u want to play your toon with GH mem'd, then do so. Just don't defend that it is a better way to do it because the only thing u are doing is saving an inconsequential amount of plat.

Really, I know that you want to paint those that disagree with you as immature or young. (Neither is the case) But don't cry immaturity when you are so on the same level with the insulting and name calling. Lets either insult each other at will or shut up with the whining and pretending you're better. :D

I'll leave you with this... come to Argo and Put Up or Shut Up.
Let's see who the better player is.

[Vengenance]

Heh, you're clueless... It's worse, because you think you're uber.

You are the worst kind of player that MMOs seem to attract. You actually wrote that someone is gimp because they have GH as a spell.

So anyone who is not absolutely optimal is gimp.... You either need a dictionary or a new attitude.

Let me guess, you're trying to justify to yourself that carrying GH is a good idea. Am I correct? In my original thread I was nicer and stated that a sorc is either ignorant about the effectiveness of GH from scrolls or are a gimping themselves.

I believe you are confusing a person with a character, just to be sure, you do realize this is a video game, correct??? Now with that little clarification, a character <in a VIDEO GAME> that chooses to carry GH over another better spell is IMO gimping their character. Is that clear enough for you?

[Vengenance]

Here's the interesting thing I've noticed.... Sorcs who carry the GH spell usually cast it on the whole party. Sorcs who scroll it don't cast it unless you ask for it. The group of you rabidly defending scroll use and stating costs don't matter, sure seem to be a lot less generous in practice.

Are you the kind of caster that wastes buffs on the entire party w/o first asking what buffs they need? If so then you are a worse caster then I imagined, and needlessly wasting party resources (your sp pool) on buffs that aren't needed versus buffs or CC than may be required during the quest (cc, haste, dps, etc.). At end game most folks are self-sufficient or know enough to understand what buffs they may or may not need and are capable of asking for them.

[Thrudh]

a character <in a VIDEO GAME> that chooses to carry GH over another better spell is IMO gimping their character. Is that clear enough for you?

You still need a dictionary. Gimp means crippled... In MMO slang, a gimp is pretty worthless. You don't want to bring a bunch of gimps along on a raid.

Taking GH as a spell does not make one a gimp. You're very arrogant, typical of people who think their skill <in a VIDEO GAME> matters at all.

Is that clear enough for you?

[Thrudh]

Are you the kind of caster that wastes buffs on the entire party w/o first asking what buffs they need? If so then you are a worse caster then I imagined, and needlessly wasting party resources (your sp pool) on buffs that aren't needed versus buffs or CC than may be required during the quest (cc, haste, dps, etc.). At end game most folks are self-sufficient or know enough to understand what buffs they may or may not need and are capable of asking for them.

Unlike you, I actually PUG (a better test of uberness in my opinion - you only run with fellow ubers - easy to succeed in that situation). I have enough SP to give everyone GH and blur and even a few displacements before key battles, and somehow we complete every quest without me running out of SP.

Almost everyone can use the +4 to saves, if nothing else.

You've stated the gp cost of GH scrolls is negligible. Why not cast it on every member? Sure, maybe not everyone needs it, but who cares? It's basically free right? No SP cost, and miniscule gp cost.

[Vengenance]

You've stated the gp cost of GH scrolls is negligible. Why not cast it on every member? Sure, maybe not everyone needs it, but who cares? It's basically free right? No SP cost, and miniscule gp cost.

Ahhh shucks, you got me there with that real smart argument... :eek:

Let me think about this <tick, tick, tick, ....................., man this is realllllllllyyyy complicatttttttttttted, tick, tick, tick, tick...................> I got it, maybe I shouldn't cast it on everyone because those in party have a gird, can self cast it, or maybe don't need it. Maybe some of the people in the party are wearing the cloak from the DQ so they don't need blur or have shroud crafted items that give a perma-blur effect, you know it's possible. Isn't just as easy to ask, "Does anyone need any buffs, if so what do you need?"

Do you even read the stuff you post before you hit submit?

[tinyelvis]

If you look this thread over you might think its a contest between folks who spell cast GH and those who scroll cast. However, with the exception of one individual all scroll casters seem to have experience dating back to 06, while spell casters of GH seem to be relatively recent members of the community. I suppose this is just a dumb coincidence.

The one standout to this observation has stated,

I actually PUG (a better test of uberness in my opinion - you only run with fellow ubers - easy to succeed in that situation). I have enough SP to give everyone GH and blur and even a few displacements before key battlesWell sir, I don't understand your logic. Would you not be better suited to help a PUG out with reconstruct as a spell cast at 6th level, while using scroll cast GH for those key battles? You would be more versatile and a better PUG player. I don't see how you can defend your position since you seem to agree with us. Do you really play a caster or are you just arguing to argue?

[nbhs275]

If you look this thread over you might think its a contest between folks who spell cast GH and those who scroll cast. However, with the exception of one individual all scroll casters seem to have experience dating back to 06, while spell casters of GH seem to be relatively recent members of the community. I suppose this is just a dumb coincidence.

The one standout to this observation has stated,
Well sir, I don't understand your logic. Would you not be better suited to help a PUG out with reconstruct as a spell cast at 6th level, while using scroll cast GH for those key battles? You would be more versatile and a better PUG player. I don't see how you can defend your position since you seem to agree with us. Do you really play a caster or are you just arguing to argue?

i've been around as long as anyone else man, and i still carry GH. Both as a spell and scroll. Sure scrolls are just as effective, but become costly if you find yourself using it alot on others. And when your already invested heavily into heal scrolls for yourself and others, its not always a cost everyone can absorb. Now i can agree that having acid fog or recon instead. And even that for any WF casters, recon is a complete necessity.

But in the end, everyone is going to have some different perferences, and carrying GH is in no way a poor choice. There are much worse mistakes that can be made

[Thrudh]

But in the end, everyone is going to have some different perferences, and carrying GH is in no way a poor choice. There are much worse mistakes that can be made

Exactly...

I've gotten way too involved with this thread. Vengenance got under my skin.

Look, I'll admit that using scrolls is the better choice, if you guys will admit that having GH in a spell slot does not equal worthless sorc.

I'm only upset by the "ubers" who think you're perfect or you're gimp, and often post that way to new players.

And note my join date... I've been around nearly as long as the rest of you.

[Vengenance]

Look, I'll admit that using scrolls is the better choice...

My point exactly! :D

[Vua]

Now let's be fair here - most of the people making the assumption that a certain poster was gimp - were not making the assumption based on his spell selection. They were making the assumption based upon 1) the poor reasons he provided for his spell selection 2) his obstinacy in seeing any other POV and 3) his own rather unprofessional personal attacks.

Ok. I jumped into this thread and left pretty quickly. Reece and Vengenance almost made this thread unreadable. While they aren't wrong in what they were saying for the most part, the whole gimp from 1 spell thing and I'm the most uber player around **** just rubbed the wrong way. Probably going to wish I stayed out but what the hell.

Now most people in this thread may have been making gimp references due to reasons other than the spell in question, but the person I happened to single out was not. Actually his first post in this thread went something like this.

"My 2 CP

Feats:
extend
max
empower
heighten
spell pen I & II

With regards to GH, any sorc who carries GH as their level 6 spell is gimped IMO. At end level pretty much every character that needs GH should have it on a gird, most of my characters have 2-3 girds on them at end game. If someone doesn't have a gird then use a scroll on them or have a bard cast GH on them. My sorc carries 50-100 GH scrolls for use on himself or others if needed. Level 6 spells are just to good waste on an easily obtained self buff.

Choose Three
Disintegrate
Flesh to Stone
Acid Fog
Reconstruct

I personally carry Acid Fog, Disintegrate, and Reconstruct. I'm not warforged, but I like to run VOD so it's useful to have when you have a WF tank."

That sounds pretty much like the spell itself being cast from your mana makes you gimp. I don't see any replying to specific insults or faulty logic there.

Now I've been playing a long time and I don't have 3 girds on every character. I can't run the same quest over and over and over mindlessly for days on end to get 1 single piece of loot. It's just not fun for me. Do I have the spell loaded. I usually do. I switch them around occasionally, but I have solid fog, and found Acid fog really lacking. I'll just let the barb swing 2 more times to make up the damage. And since I still have hundreds of DDoor scrolls, I don't have to worry about which level 4 spell to ditch.

You want to think my caster is gimp because I carry GH, go right ahead. I know the real reason he is gimp is because when I made him 2+ years ago, I put no points in concentration. So instead of extend, I have quicken. Add that to the required feats list for a Sorc.

[tinyelvis]

Never stated a sorcerer was gimp for carrying the GH spell, only foolish and not as effective as he could be. There is no way around this point. If you play long enough you cant help coming to this conclusion. Arguing about who said who was gimp is just a distraction from this main thesis.

Now, if you regularly party cast extended GH, blur, and say 3 displacements, that will amount to more than 20-25% of your mana (some sorcerers overbuff even more) every time you pass out this mix. At best, you can only be marginally effective at this point. The relatively small increase in party capability does not make up for this. Its analogous to feeding your kids candy for dinner. Sure they love you for it, but it certainly is not best overall for them. I dont know how you get from shrine to shrine hamstrung like this unless you do alot of standing around. The PUG'er the group, the more you need your spell points to do offensive damage to the enemy. Scroll them GH if need be, wand cast stoneskin and blur. Haste.

[Thrudh]

Never stated a sorcerer was gimp for carrying the GH spell, only foolish and not as effective as he could be. There is no way around this point. If you play long enough you cant help coming to this conclusion. Arguing about who said who was gimp is just a distraction from this main thesis.

Now, if you regularly party cast extended GH, blur, and say 3 displacements, that will amount to more than 20-25% of your mana (some sorcerers overbuff even more) every time you pass out this mix. At best, you can only be marginally effective at this point. The relatively small increase in party capability does not make up for this. Its analogous to feeding your kids candy for dinner. Sure they love you for it, but it certainly is not best overall for them. I dont know how you get from shrine to shrine hamstrung like this unless you do alot of standing around. The PUG'er the group, the more you need your spell points to do offensive damage to the enemy. Scroll them GH if need be, wand cast stoneskin and blur. Haste.

Just wanted to point out that wizards with 800-1000 less SP than you somehow manage to contribute to a group from shrine to shrine... I think the problem is that you guys BLOW through your SP offensively. Sometimes it's okay to let the displaced hasted fighters kill the easy trash mobs.

[tinyelvis]

Contributing to a group with 800 spell points is not the same as contributing with 2300. Sure you can use your mana to buff and help out but you will either run out of mana and stand around with your thumb up your butt or sparingly throw out helpful spells so that it looks like you are doing something.

I would not take any arcane caster knowing they only have 800 points to spend, I dont care how good they are at making you think they are helpful. The simple fact is they are wasting a spot. A sorcerer with 2300 spell points will essentially contribute close to the same as three of those lame fellows.

Thrudh, you have a peculiar style of argument. I think you actually are a double agent. Your examples and logic seem to mostly bolster your opponents arguments.

[QuintonReece]

Ok. I jumped into this thread and left pretty quickly. Reece and Vengenance almost made this thread unreadable. LOL because we disagree we have made it unreadable. lol classic! :D While they aren't wrong in what they were saying for the most part, the whole gimp from 1 spell thing For the record, I dont think he's gimped for choosing the one spell. I think he's gimp because of his arguments to support his position. and I'm the most uber player around I AM, you are correct here.**** just rubbed the wrong way. Probably going to wish I stayed out but what the hell.

Now most people in this thread may have been making gimp references due to reasons other than the spell in question, but the person I happened to single out was not. Actually his first post in this thread went something like this.

"My 2 CP

Feats:
extend
max
empower
heighten
spell pen I & II

With regards to GH, any sorc who carries GH as their level 6 spell is gimped IMO. At end level pretty much every character that needs GH should have it on a gird, most of my characters have 2-3 girds on them at end game. If someone doesn't have a gird then use a scroll on them or have a bard cast GH on them. My sorc carries 50-100 GH scrolls for use on himself or others if needed. Level 6 spells are just to good waste on an easily obtained self buff.

Choose Three
Disintegrate
Flesh to Stone
Acid Fog
Reconstruct

I personally carry Acid Fog, Disintegrate, and Reconstruct. I'm not warforged, but I like to run VOD so it's useful to have when you have a WF tank."

That sounds pretty much like the spell itself being cast from your mana makes you gimp. I don't see any replying to specific insults or faulty logic there.

Now I've been playing a long time and I don't have 3 girds on every character. I can't run the same quest over and over and over mindlessly for days on end to get 1 single piece of loot. It's just not fun for me. Do I have the spell loaded. I usually do. I switch them around occasionally, but I have solid fog, and found Acid fog really lacking. I'll just let the barb swing 2 more times to make up the damage. And since I still have hundreds of DDoor scrolls, I don't have to worry about which level 4 spell to ditch.

You want to think my caster is gimp because I carry GH, go right ahead. I know the real reason he is gimp is because when I made him 2+ years ago, I put no points in concentration. So instead of extend, I have quicken. Add that to the required feats list for a Sorc.

There.

[Vengenance]

Ok. I jumped into this thread and left pretty quickly. Reece and Vengenance {that's me} almost made this thread unreadable. While they aren't wrong in what they were saying for the most part, the whole gimp from 1 spell thing and I'm the most uber player around **** just rubbed the wrong way...blah, blah, blah....


/yawn



Feats:
extend
max
empower
heighten
spell pen I & II

With regards to GH, any sorc who carries GH as their level 6 spell is gimped IMO. At end level pretty much every character that needs GH should have it on a gird, most of my characters have 2-3 girds on them at end game. If someone doesn't have a gird then use a scroll on them or have a bard cast GH on them. My sorc carries 50-100 GH scrolls for use on himself or others if needed. Level 6 spells are just to good waste on an easily obtained self buff.

Choose Three
Disintegrate
Flesh to Stone
Acid Fog
Reconstruct

I personally carry Acid Fog, Disintegrate, and Reconstruct. I'm not warforged, but I like to run VOD so it's useful to have when you have a WF tank."


Good stuff here, I agree completely! :D



You want to think my caster is gimp because I carry GH, go right ahead. I know the real reason he is gimp is because when I made him 2+ years ago, I put no points in concentration. So instead of extend, I have quicken. Add that to the required feats list for a Sorc.

The first stage of recovery is acknowledging the problem. It's great that you have embraced your inner gimp.

[juniorpfactors]

jrp = gimp I have GH and its just 1 spell I freely will toss to those who need, I am not gonna scroll that on the entire party, just not gonna happen, I would rather throw my plat on mana pots lol


jrp the gimp gh mana caster:( per noob above,,, jrp looks up and see him

[Thrudh]

Contributing to a group with 800 spell points is not the same as contributing with 2300. Sure you can use your mana to buff and help out but you will either run out of mana and stand around with your thumb up your butt or sparingly throw out helpful spells so that it looks like you are doing something.

I would not take any arcane caster knowing they only have 800 points to spend, I dont care how good they are at making you think they are helpful. The simple fact is they are wasting a spot. A sorcerer with 2300 spell points will essentially contribute close to the same as three of those lame fellows.

Thrudh, you have a peculiar style of argument. I think you actually are a double agent. Your examples and logic seem to mostly bolster your opponents arguments.

800 LESS Tiny, not 800 total...

My point is simple... Your sorc has 2300 SP, and my wizard has 1500 SP... Somehow, my wizard is able to buff everyone in the party with GH and blur and haste, and occasional displacements..... AND also do CC and FoD and FtS, etc.

Somehow, he makes a real difference and helps the party succeed.... but with only 1500 SP. You, on the other hand, with 2300 SP, cannot spare any SP to buff because you need all 2300 SP to be effective. In fact, you say...


Now, if you regularly party cast extended GH, blur, and say 3 displacements, that will amount to more than 20-25% of your mana (some sorcerers overbuff even more) every time you pass out this mix. At best, you can only be marginally effective at this point.

Note that EVERY wizard, under your definition, can only be marginally effective because they have 75% of the mana of a sorc, and sorcs who waste 25% of their mana on buffs are only marginally effective.

You are wrong. I believe you THINK you need your full 2300 SP because you WASTE your SP constantly on overboard offensive casting. Again, I say, sometimes it's okay to sit back and let your buffed fighter kill some trash mobs... You don't have to spend all your SPs on killing.

In fact, I think I do better in PUGs, BECAUSE I play as team member, and not as one of 6 awesome soloists.

You guys are arrogant, and you're wrong... One spell does not equal gimp. You make yourselves look foolish with such over the top statements. And you compound the fact by stating all wizards are gimp because any arcane caster with less than 2300 SP (with none to spare for buffs!) can only be marginally effective

[tinyelvis]

So your wizard has 1500 SP and spends regularly close to 30 % of his mana with unnecessary buffing (since scrolling and wand use could be just as effective). Leaving him with 1000 or less SP to use to aid the party in offensive operations. I am sorry friend but I just looked it up in the dictionary. That is one of the definitions of Gimp.


gimp
–noun
1. a flat trimming of silk, wool, or other cord, sometimes stiffened with wire, for garments, curtains, etc.
2. a DDO wizard character or other arcane caster with less than 2000 spell points at capped level.
3. a coarse thread, usually glazed, employed in lacemaking to outline designs.I get it now, you play a wizard. You are filled with bitterness and Sorcerer envy. Actually we were talking about sorcerers. I would have to say that without doubt wizards are gimp. But everyone knows that. Don't blame the messenger. Blame Turbine. They are the ones who gimped wizards.

My gosh, if I were to roll up a Sorcerer, and bring him into a party, then point out to everyone that I only had 1500 Spell points they would laugh at me and ask me what I did to gimp my character. Now considering that a Sorcerer cast his spells faster than a wizard, and in essence performs better than a wizard. Does this not also make by default a wizard gimp. Of course it does. Its sad but true, Turbine Gimped the wizards. Play one if you like, but don't pretend he is effective. I think it might be best if you stop trying to responding in the forum. You really are an easy mark.

[QuintonReece]

So your wizard has 1500 SP and spends regularly close to 30 % of his mana with unnecessary buffing (since scrolling and wand use could be just as effective). Leaving him with 1000 or less SP to use to aid the party in offensive operations. I am sorry friend but I just looked it up in the dictionary. That is one of the definitions of Gimp.

I get it now, you play a wizard. You are filled with bitterness and Sorcerer envy. Actually we were not talking about sorcerers. I would have to say that without doubt wizards are gimp. But everyone knows that. Don't blame the messenger. Blame Turbine. They are the ones who gimped wizards.

My gosh, if I were to roll up a Sorcerer, and bring him into a party, then point out to everyone that I only had 1500 Spell points they would laugh at me and ask me what I did to gimp my character. Now considering that a Sorcerer cast his spells faster than a wizard, and in essence performs better than a wizard. Does this not also make by default a wizard gimp. Of course it does. Its sad but true, Turbine Gimped the wizards. Play one if you like, but don't pretend he is effective. I think it might be best if you stop trying to responding in the forum. You really are an easy mark.

lol :)

[Thrudh]

So your wizard has 1500 SP and spends regularly close to 30 % of his mana with unnecessary buffing (since scrolling and wand use could be just as effective). Leaving him with 1000 or less SP to use to aid the party in offensive operations. I am sorry friend but I just looked it up in the dictionary. That is one of the definitions of Gimp.

I get it now, you play a wizard. You are filled with bitterness and Sorcerer envy. Actually we were talking about sorcerers. I would have to say that without doubt wizards are gimp. But everyone knows that. Don't blame the messenger. Blame Turbine. They are the ones who gimped wizards.

My gosh, if I were to roll up a Sorcerer, and bring him into a party, then point out to everyone that I only had 1500 Spell points they would laugh at me and ask me what I did to gimp my character. Now considering that a Sorcerer cast his spells faster than a wizard, and in essence performs better than a wizard. Does this not also make by default a wizard gimp. Of course it does. Its sad but true, Turbine Gimped the wizards. Play one if you like, but don't pretend he is effective. I think it might be best if you stop trying to responding in the forum. You really are an easy mark.

Thank you for proving my previous assertion that you're arrogant and wrong.

I love this kind of post. You're so out there with this one, that it makes it easier when evaluating any other post you ever make (all 60+ of them). You might make a point someday that almost makes sense, but then we'll remember, "Ah, this is Tiny, who often spouts nonsense as fact".

Amazing you went from "GH as a spell makes you a worthless gimp sorc" (bad enough on it's own), to "ALL wizards are worthless, and completely gimp, regardless of build".

Very nice. Thank you for clarifying your lack of game knowledge. It has been duly noted.

[Tarackian]

Frankly, screw extend and let them whine. Send them to the potion vendor for haste pots (I have honest). You've got mana, just recast haste as it wears out. GH? 16 minutes is plenty between shrines and with a Warchanter GH is only good for the save bonus so why even bother. Its your toon play it the way you want to not as others would (including me). take empower dump SF: Illusion. You never mention the builds intent? Nuker/CC/Charmer/Generalist? depending on that will lead you to the best feats/enhancements. the great thing is you can change them when you want to try something else. Good Luck.


My sorc is my second oldest character. He is a drow with 36 CHA and a hodge podge of other stats.

For feats he has: Maximize, Heighten, Spell Pen, SF: Enchantment, GSF: Enchantment, SF: Illusion

For enhancements he has: spell pen 3, fire 4, fire crit 2, other fire crit 2 and other assorted stuff I can't remember off the top of my head.

He is at 2055sp and can last between most shrines okay. He is a little fragile and low on HP but I have a plan to get him up to 250.

There are two things that I have seen lately that make me wonder... one is the increased requests for greater heroism (which I only have on scrolls) and I've also been told that I MUST have extend to go with my haste spell.

It is usually only a complaint from people who won't wait for my slow butt to catch up and rehaste the group, which I am happy to do.

So what do you all think? (Both about my general enchanter build and the "extend requirement".)

Thanks. :D