Congrats on the Abbot win

[Mockduck]

Word is two DDOcasters (not me, which is probably why they won) joined some other fine Sarlona folks and took down the abbot last night on elite! Here's a LINK (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Ddocast/index.php?showtopic=929) to Xiloscient's pics of it all. Congrats all!

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I really hate putting a dampener on these achievements, because I do admit that it requires a lot of practice to manage to beat the Abbot, and I do wish to congratulate everyone involved.. and I've been biting my lip (metaphorically) about these posts since they've started appearing (more often nowadays)...

Nevertheless, unless people are willing to confirm otherwise, I do believe that there is a certain amount of cheese happening in particular in the asteroids room, and possibly in the phase goggles room.

All these posts do, is confirm to the devs that they can leave the Abbot alone, and that they don't need to fix it - when, in fact, it desperately needs work to make the Asteroids room possible without cheese. If devs keep seeing these congratulatory posts then I just think they're going to say 'Ok - the Abbot is fine, let's leave it alone' and that can't be good for those players who refuse to use any form of cheese when running a quest, and thus have no way of completing the Abbot. I still haven't done the Abbot and refuse to do it unless it's possible without cheese.

There - I said it...

And congratulations to the group... I really don't mean to devalue your achievement, but I think the point about what the devs might think if these 'successes' become commonplace is something that needed to be said.

Garth

[Nuckin]

Finally someone said it :) was almost to the point where I was gonna say it myself, and no it is not beatable w/o cheese currently... but yea grats on the completion

[Dexxaan]

Cmon Garth, don´t be a party ****er....but since there´s a ton of cheese to be dealt with....then I´ll bring the crackers.:D

All Monk Abbot FTW!








P.S. Abbot? Why bother; lame loot (Except 2-3 items at most); and major potential for PUG-Hate, and wait until the puritans start yelling no Cheese on the Abbott please! (A la shroud).

[Fourfingers]

I'll second the sentiment - congratulations to the group on the successful completion.

If you are concerned about cheese, perhaps we can get a dev to chime in and let us know if this is how they intended the raid to be completed. If not I'm sure they would be happy to shut it down again and fix it (it would appear there have been a number of ways to complete that raid and not all were as intended - remembering they added a barrier at the door to prevent one exploit.)

But we all know how much dev time goes into the Abbot raid anyway.. How long did it take to fix that goggle bug? :)

What was your completion time on that elite Abbot anyway? :O

[Mockduck]

I really hate putting a dampener on these achievements, because I do admit that it requires a lot of practice to manage to beat the Abbot, and I do wish to congratulate everyone involved.. and I've been biting my lip (metaphorically) about these posts since they've started appearing (more often nowadays)...

Nevertheless, unless people are willing to confirm otherwise, I do believe that there is a certain amount of cheese happening in particular in the asteroids room, and possibly in the phase goggles room.

All these posts do, is confirm to the devs that they can leave the Abbot alone, and that they don't need to fix it - when, in fact, it desperately needs work to make the Asteroids room possible without cheese. If devs keep seeing these congratulatory posts then I just think they're going to say 'Ok - the Abbot is fine, let's leave it alone' and that can't be good for those players who refuse to use any form of cheese when running a quest, and thus have no way of completing the Abbot. I still haven't done the Abbot and refuse to do it unless it's possible without cheese.

There - I said it...

And congratulations to the group... I really don't mean to devalue your achievement, but I think the point about what the devs might think if these 'successes' become commonplace is something that needed to be said.

Garth


No one who listens to the show should be too surprised to learn that I actually agree with you 100%! Well, except for the fact that I wanted to congratulate Xiloscient and Mical the Wise for beating this one.

I've been railing against cheesy tactics and exploits for a long time. When it comes to the Abbot raid, though, I've kind of decided to chill out a bit. Frankly, all of these wins have an asterisk by them *

* Beaten using tactics that don't involve legitimate uses, like soul stone carries, asteroid room spell oddness or worse, etc

but at some point it's just a matter of "eh - it's just how you have to win, if you want to win."

I have no fear that the devs will let the raid stay as-is because of posts. I am sure they are well aware of how people are beating this raid, and probably even watched some of these groups beat the raid. Eladrin has already said that the Abbot raid is getting a major makeover for Mod 9, so I'll be curious to see what happens.

Even using goofy tactics, this raid is still hard to beat, so congrats to people with the time/dedication/insanity to do it! I've given up on winning it, that's for sure.

[Mical]

taking down the abott on elite, it took us bout an 91

but yea that was majorly fun

[Angelus_dead]

All these posts do, is confirm to the devs that they can leave the Abbot alone, and that they don't need to fix it - when, in fact, it desperately needs work to make the Asteroids room possible without cheese. If devs keep seeing these congratulatory posts then I just think they're going to say 'Ok - the Abbot is fine, let's leave it alone'
That was a valid and important concern for the large majority of the Abbot's existence, but unless the devs are dishonest, it doesn't matter anymore (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=1998414#post1998414).

Any feedback this post might be providing is too late to change anything, for good or ill. The Abbot quest that those guys just beat is gone.

[Mockduck]

Fast-forward one year...

Player 1: "Remember when the Abbot was impossible and you had to freeze summoned creatures in the asteroid room to win?

Player 2: "Yeah, now it's just a matter of keeping Coyle on the platform!"

[frugal_gourmet]

I can't wait for the next series of complaints that the Abbot is too easy.

Luckily, too easy is way better than neigh-impossible.

[Mical]

the loot in there was amazing to look out, like the book that drops.. so awesome,

if they change the difficulty they might change the loot

maybe idk..

[Chaos000]

I can't wait for the next series of complaints that the Abbot is too easy.

Luckily, too easy is way better than neigh-impossible.

I'm with you on that! would much rather be bored than frustrated.

[Angelus_dead]

Luckily, too easy is way better than neigh-impossible.
Yes, several months ago I made a thread asking if the Abbot was too tough (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=158895), and it included a side comment that the Reaver was too easy. In the next patch they went and changed Reaver... but Abbot is still waiting.

[query]

I'll worry about the details after that. Not cake, not nigh impossible without Kraft, but doable and fun!

[Junts]

Nevertheless, unless people are willing to confirm otherwise, I do believe that there is a certain amount of cheese happening in particular in the asteroids room, and possibly in the phase goggles room.



My guild has been running this raid as well, and I just want to take this opportunity to say: the phase tile puzzle is routinely beatable with quite a bit of practice; as long as you approach it the right way (using movement and not voice cues, etc), experienced players can beat it legitimately upwards of 50% of the time.

We have nights where the iceball puzzle is failed more than the tile puzzle (of course, other nights that's not the case).


The asteroid puzzle is completely ********, as has widely been known; if the m9 abbot changes were -nothing- but a redo of the asteroid puzzle, I would be exceedingly happy with the raid.

[Mockduck]

Yeah, both the tile room and ice room are pretty do-able (although there's still too much bugginess with the ice wands).

Generally, the only big problem is the asteroid room. That, and the fact that his inferno is sort of outrageous (even if you know it's coming, it's hard to time that part out well by using the wands). Generally, finding an off-battle-floor encasement and using, ahem, whatevers in the asteroid room is how it's being beaten. That, or I've heard something about a long wait that I won't disclose here.

If the asteroid room was fixed, that would make the quest generally doable with a highly-skilled and organized group without needing to resort to exploits/cheese.

Overall, I hope Eladrin's makeover of the raid makes it fun! I just want a raid that is fun and gets people running the rest of the Litany content, which I actually enjoy quite a bit.

[Angelus_dead]

Yeah, both the tile room and ice room are pretty do-able (although there's still too much bugginess with the ice wands).
But always remember, "do-able" doesn't imply fun. That's faint praise.

[Mockduck]

But always remember, "do-able" doesn't imply fun. That's faint praise.

True. I have never described the Abbot raid as "fun". I've had some fun times getting trounced with friends in there, but the quest itself? Fun as a toothache in the pouring rain...

[Junts]

But always remember, "do-able" doesn't imply fun. That's faint praise.

outside the asteroids and inferno, we've been having quite a bit of fun, though you really have to do it in doses; abbot and hound are the only raids in the game you can in fact fail at this point, and the extra risk adds some excitement

[Tanka]

To quote their forums:


the most cheesiest ever... freezing clients everywhere, but still took skill and luck to get through googles
I'm not giving props to exploiters. Sorry guys, but if you have to exploit just to win, it isn't a win.

Tell me when you beat it without exploits.

[Justin1341]

To quote their forums:


I'm not giving props to exploiters. Sorry guys, but if you have to exploit just to win, it isn't a win.

Tell me when you beat it without exploits.

Everyone has to exploit it to win so don't act all high and mighty. It isn't beatable without. And your guildies were there too Tanka.

[Grinndal]

Congratz guys.

And as to fixing the quest.
/signed

[Baltire]

Everyone has to exploit it to win so don't act all high and mighty. It isn't beatable without. And your guildies were there too Tanka.

There were ZERO NSR members in that raid, we are all of the mind that if it needs to be done in a way that isnt meant to be done ( I wont mention any of the ways I have heard from people that HAVE cheesed it) then we wont do it at all.

As far as Im concerned, on this topic, anyone who refuses to do something that is know to be "wrong" has plenty of reason to act high and mighty.

If it isnt beatable without bending or breaking rules, then it shouldnt be done, and by stating that "We Did It" just shows that you have broken rules.

[Justin1341]

There were ZERO NSR members in that raid, we are all of the mind that if it needs to be done in a way that isnt meant to be done ( I wont mention any of the ways I have heard from people that HAVE cheesed it) then we wont do it at all.

As far as Im concerned, on this topic, anyone who refuses to do something that is know to be "wrong" has plenty of reason to act high and mighty.

If it isnt beatable without bending or breaking rules, then it shouldnt be done, and by stating that "We Did It" just shows that you have broken rules.

um Tanka is in Caffeine but thanks... And your guildies have come along with us PLENTY o perfect NSR....

[Tanka]

Everyone has to exploit it to win so don't act all high and mighty. It isn't beatable without. And your guildies were there too Tanka.
As Towrn said, no NSR were there.

Oh, wait, you're a bit behind the news, aren't you?

I'll be high and mighty because if you can't beat it as the developers have intended, you haven't truly beaten it.

Get back to me when you have.

[alchilito]

Everyone has to exploit it to win so don't act all high and mighty. It isn't beatable without. And your guildies were there too Tanka.

ouch. pwned.

[Justin1341]

As Towrn said, no NSR were there.

Oh, wait, you're a bit behind the news, aren't you?

I'll be high and mighty because if you can't beat it as the developers have intended, you haven't truly beaten it.

Get back to me when you have.

Have you? Has ANYONE?!?! No and No. And any tactics that are used aren't a I win button. It is still a hard quest and a challenge. I guess you wouldn't know since you can't do it.

[Tanka]

Have you? Has ANYONE?!?! No and No. And any tactics that are used aren't a I win button. It is still a hard quest and a challenge. I guess you wouldn't know since you can't do it.
Congrats, you used an exploit to bypass one part of the raid, therefore not completing as the developers intended.

Whether or not anyone has is irrelevant. You exploited. You cheated. You broke the rules of the game, both in letter and in spirit.

Beating a broken quest through exploits is not worthy of merit.

[Kanamycin]

if its so cheesy why did eladrin describe it as clever ?

[Baltire]

Sorry you changed guilds... And no NSR were there this run. But I can think of at least 5 NSR that have come along and used these tactics and 1 that studied them in depth and learned so that he could get NSR to do guild runs using them :O

Is that so????

Give me their names in a PM so I can have a word with them.

Im on most all the time and NEVER see anyone in that quest.

NSR hasnt run an abbot as a guild in about 6 months back when we were trying to LEARN puzzles, not get around them with cheesy tactics.

So, unless you have proof to back up your allegations, I would say, take the high road (for once) and shut your mouth. We obviously have proof that you have exlpoited this raid.

Keep talking if youd like, I have said all I need to say.

[Tanka]

Sergod, keep on giving the Cube some tasty food.

Shine on, you crazy diamond.

[Lifespawn]

my guild and soulless did the asteroid with the summon undead and flesh to stone when you could cast them more than once.

Not sure if that was considered cheese but no other way to beat it presently than with the undescribed tactics.

[Mical]

it is physically impossible to do it without exploiting, not to be a giant cheater but it is phyiscally impossible, in the asteroids room, there are so many boulders and even the minutest bit of lag will push you off.

so if it was lag free i would then try to do it for real, as inteded, but it wasn't inteed to be laggy

so :P

'i fart in your general direction'

[Mockduck]

Maybe I should have just congratulated Xilo and Mical in a PM, but hey - I figured what the heck? Just a reminder that I wasn't there and had nothing to do with this.

As far as I'm concerned, it still takes a good party to beat the raid, even if an exploit is used in the asteroid room. Now, my personal stance is that I'm not running the raid any more until it's fixed because I concluded that I couldn't legit win, but it still takes skill to beat the other two puzzles, survive the inferno and deal with everything else in the raid, particularly on elite. So, I figured congrats was in order.

[Mical]

yea back in october we tried to beat the abott, on normail, with no exploits

IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE DUE TO LAG

and buginess of puzzles, but other than that, if the puzzles were possible then i would try but it is physically not beatable..

[Tanka]

So rather than take the high road you chose to exploit?

Right. My hat is off to you, sir.

[Kanamycin]

you tanka are better than everyone and your betterness has won you the internet , good job

[Mical]

ok no offensive but you physically dont get it

IF IF IF it were possible to do it, without exploiting, people would be doing it that way, to have actual honor
but since theres the tiniest bit of lag in the asteroid room,

it
is
not
possible

believe me i would like to do it without exploits, it just cannot be done.. no matter what top notch computer you have, the latency between your party is to much, theres the slightest bit of lag

[Euphoria]

congrats on completing the abbot...maybe one day i will attempt it:D

[Tanka]

If it cannot be done without exploits:

Don't
Do
It

Simple, really.

[simloc]

well right clicking the windows mode is a cheat.. and i think sergod teh one that bragged abot doing it that way so weather or not it is .... I personally think is bull **** and its doable with ot cheatign ... yes its a big ***** and not worth doign but doable.. so stop whinning and take your cheating ass back to the hole you shout be in

[Mical]

this really isnt worth arguing

im just gonna say it really feels great at least killing the buggr..
+ the loot is awsome

so yea, end of argument

[Justin1341]

If it cannot be done without exploits:

Don't
Do
It

Simple, really.

Why? I want raid loot Turbine added to the game for us to use in a raid that Turbine added to the game for us to run. Just because the Neos can't beat it in the only way their uberness will do it means that our nooby butts shouldn't use our brains to figure out other ways to succced where ya'll failed?

[Mical]

+ as ppl said before the cheat is only one small thing, you stil have to take him down and the inferno and the ice room and the phase googles..

so yea

okay im done

hehe

[Justin1341]

well right clicking the windows mode is a cheat.. and i think sergod teh one that bragged abot doing it that way so weather or not it is .... I personally think is bull **** and its doable with ot cheatign ... yes its a big ***** and not worth doign but doable.. so stop whinning and take your cheating ass back to the hole you shout be in

Actually I never bragged about how I beat the Abbott. I just bragged about beating it. I felt it was an accomplishment killing him after 300 hours of work.

[Kanamycin]

because as we all know in the world of ddo , things can be done only one way , any other way is FAIL!!!!!

and for some reason no one takes down these threads speaking openly about an exploit , oh wait , maybe it is not an exploit,

are you telling me in RL if someone sent you into a room full of danger and gave you a way "out" of that danger that would only end in your demise that you would do it? because that would be the honorable thing right ?


by the way DO NOT STEP FOOT INTO THE SHROUD WITHOUT COMPLETING THE ABBOT OR YOU ARE USING A CHEESY TACTIC!

[moops]

This is silly.

I have never finished the Abbot, however, every now and then I get curious if anyone has figured out a way to beat it legit, and the only way to do this is to actually step in the raid and try it--many of my friends from all sorts of guilds have been in the Abbot recently for the same reason, to see if there is a new legit strategy out there.

I have several guildies that weren't even playing when the Abbot first came out, and they join abbot LFMS, many of them not even knowing about the cheese, just to see what it looks like.

In the end this is a game that everyone pays for. I may not want to exploit the Abbot, but I'm sure as heck not going to jump on anyone else about it, their game let them Play the way they want. Plus I have too many friends that are doing it, and it would make putting groups together and gaming extremely uncomfortable.

[Xiloscient]

To quote their forums:


I'm not giving props to exploiters. Sorry guys, but if you have to exploit just to win, it isn't a win.

Tell me when you beat it without exploits.


"“He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone""

So Tanka once you do it without any help then you can talk about exploiting i am 100% sure you HAVE used some sort of exploit sometime that you have been playing DDO

[gfunk]

I'm not sure where comparative video gaming ethics fits in the grand scheme of cultural morality... but it's gotta be pretty far down the list. Certainly not worth getting into a bit fight over.

I know the Abbot is tough, even with employing disputed methods, and I offer congratulations to those who beat this tough raid. Personally, I'm not going anywhere near this raid (until mod 9), but I'm not going to cast stones at people who want to complete it in its current form. Just because it's not the way I want to beat the raid doesnt mean it's not cool for other people to beat it that way.. there is always more then one way to look at anything (CoC aside).

[Amadan83]

"“He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone""

So Tanka once you do it without any help then you can talk about exploiting i am 100% sure you HAVE used some sort of exploit sometime that you have been playing DDO

well i have 2 things to say here... 1... religion has no place in DDO... at least not our religions.... the silver flame is fine... but seriously, we're playing a video game, using a "cheat" or an exploit is not a "sin" i'm sure the bible doesn't say

"thou shalt not right click on the windows screen in the abbot raid"

and WRT to the people moaning about how the abbot is being beaten only with exploits... that's human nature.... it's foolish to think that if there's an easy way to do something, you're going to CHOOSE the harder way, simply because of a moral standard... in which case... you should probably re evaluate your life, if you take such a high moral ground in a VIDEO GAME.

ok so some people cheat in a video game to get some items... besides, it's Sergod... do you guys expect anything else?? the guy plays 25 hours a day... raids constantly... to get one item, to boost his AC 1 point... do you really think he cares about your moral standard?? or your re-written bible that says cheating in the abbot is a sin??

and in closing..........

there may be cheating, there may be exploits... but with people who are doing this... and using exploits, it's drawing attention to this raid that isn't being run very often... which is drawing people into this raid... it's bringing people who DO take that moral high ground into the raid to prove to people like Sergod that it can be done without exploits.... but ask him if he cares???


*edit*
oh and......

"let he who is without shins, cast the first bone"

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

To the OP: sorry the way in which your thread has been hijacked, the tone of my original post makes me partly responsible, but I stand by that post. I just hope the eladrin fixes in mod 9 make the asteroids room possible without Fromage.

To the People Who Beat It: I still think it takes a lot of perseverance and skill to do the abbot even with cheese (unless there's a particular brand of Camembert that I'm not aware of) so props go out to you, but as Tanka says if you're cheating the raid then you're not really doing it legit and so it doesn't really count - if I were The Boss I would be taking away your raid loot, but I'm not so hey.

To the NSR bashers: NSR never has, and will not, use any exploits in any groups they have control over. We also actively make sure that anyone sporting the NSR tag is not involved in any raids/quests that are using cheese. However, as some people have rightly said, some newer people in NSR might not have been aware of the cheesy nature of the current Abbot completions: they are now aware.

To everyone else: I wish you had posted this thread earlier in the day, I was hella bored at work today waiting on compiles and test results, and needed something like this to spice up my day, in the end I was out skiing when it all kicked off so I missed all the fun :(

To the cube: happy munching.

Garth

[BuzzSaw]

Congratulations on cheating everyone...

1) Turbine should have closed the Abbot raid if it could not be beaten properly
2) Anyone beating the broken raid should be banned for exploiting

You should be banned not congratulated nor celebrated for cheating.

Just how I feel. Sometimes it's better to go without then jump though hoops trying to justify your actions.
Buzz

[Tanka]

To everyone else: I wish you had posted this thread earlier in the day, I was hella bored at work today waiting on compiles and test results, and needed something like this to spice up my day, in the end I was out skiing when it all kicked off so I missed all the fun :(
Sorry man, no access to the forums (or much else) while at work. :(

[Justin1341]

Congratulations on cheating everyone...

1) Turbine should have closed the Abbot raid if it could not be beaten properly
2) Anyone beating the broken raid should be banned for exploiting

You should be banned not congratulated nor celebrated for cheating.

Just how I feel. Sometimes it's better to go without then jump though hoops trying to justify your actions.
Buzz

Im not trying to justify anything to anyone cuz I could care less what yall think of how I beat this raid. I just the hypocricy of the high and mighty here pathetic. Acting like were worthless noobs and they are perfect elitist pricks. I mean come on they came with me on runs, some of them did creative things in Shroud, a bunch of them did LOTD.

[Junts]

I love the hypocrisy of people's abbot positions; picking up soulstones is clearly a bannable exploit, but blocking in kasquik in the shroud so people can get sp back, or bouncing mob aggro between firewalls, or the old run to the corner of the shroud and pull aggro technique, or wedging the mage between sorjek and a wall in sos, or using a solver for the monestary puzzle (or using the ceiling light, or both), or healing people down the corridors of the twilight forge, or stealth-pulling maldetto in cursed crypt, or any fw-in-the-door aggro strategy, or sleet storming to move arraetrikos in the shroud; those things are all normal and a-ok (if not always necessary or at times silly), even though they frequently lead to quests being defeated 'not in the way they were designed'.


If you run short-man, non-completion titans, you are also beating a raid in a way it clearly isn't designed to be beaten (you aren't even finishing twilight forge!), but I don't see witchhunts on the forums about 'titan, fast short man' lfms.

Its clear that the developers realize that the asteroid room is unreasonable, and equally clear that they probably don't care how people confront it until they fix it. The rest of the raid is completely beatable with practice, and I have completed the tile puzzle several times (on both ends) without any sort of cheese whatsoever, and I am far from good at it. hell, i have seen (3 times now) someone run and jump blind across the tile puzzle after someone failed another, just for the sake of trying, and reach the other side successfully - an abundant step monk only needs to land successfully on tiles about 3 times to pull this off, vastly reducing the number of tiles that could drop out from under him.



The indignation in this thread is just kind of sad; its a great excuse for players to feel morally superior, even while dozens of other quests are defeated in ways that the quest designers did not imagine or intend.

The abbot as it stands is an extremely difficult raid to complete (even after the puzzles, without use of a cake of wishing), and posters who choose to denigrate players who are successfully beating the ice, tile and inferno as designed (all trying, frustrating and difficult in their own ways) are taking self-righteousness to the point of comedy.

Think about this; you're in a raid, you do your job and beat your portion, but you want the 10 people who aren't in the asteroids to recall in protest because they suspect the players in it did something you might find morally offensive? seriously?

No one said you had to go and do it, but to denigrate the coordination, teamwork and effort required by those other players is simply rude and inconsiderate; that raid, the asteroid puzzle ignored, is more difficult to complete than any other raid on any difficulty setting, and those capable of reliably solving it - with all the communication and thought it requires to find the right way to approach those puzzles - deserve to be recognized as having done an extraordinary job. People should be proud of the first time they complete those puzzles, especially tile; my group failed the raid the first time I beat the tile puzzle, but I remain proud of having done so (even if i have mixed results repeating the phenomenon).

Say "I'm glad Eladrin is fixing the ******** asteroid puzzle", then "wow, I'm really impressed you guys beat the goggle puzzle, how did you do that? do you have any tips? how do you line yourselves up, and communicate how far to run? do you always use the same rows of tiles?" and possibly "how'd you deal w ith the inferno? how many times did he get it off before he died? did you get an encasement over the water, or heal through it? How fast did he go down?"

If it makes you feel better to wait til m9 to run the raid, more power to you.

[Xiloscient]

i Love The Hypocrisy Of People's Abbot Positions; Picking Up Soulstones Is Clearly A Bannable Exploit, But Blocking In Kasquik In The Shroud So People Can Get Sp Back, Or Bouncing Mob Aggro Between Firewalls, Or The Old Run To The Corner Of The Shroud And Pull Aggro Technique, Or Wedging The Mage Between Sorjek And A Wall In Sos, Or Using A Solver For The Monestary Puzzle (or Using The Ceiling Light, Or Both), Or Healing People Down The Corridors Of The Twilight Forge, Or Stealth-pulling Maldetto In Cursed Crypt, Or Any Fw-in-the-door Aggro Strategy, Or Sleet Storming To Move Arraetrikos In The Shroud; Those Things Are All Normal And A-ok (if Not Always Necessary Or At Times Silly), Even Though They Frequently Lead To Quests Being Defeated 'not In The Way They Were Designed'.


If You Run Short-man, Non-completion Titans, You Are Also Beating A Raid In A Way It Clearly Isn't Designed To Be Beaten (you Aren't Even Finishing Twilight Forge!), But I Don't See Witchhunts On The Forums About 'titan, Fast Short Man' Lfms.

Its Clear That The Developers Realize That The Asteroid Room Is Unreasonable, And Equally Clear That They Probably Don't Care How People Confront It Until They Fix It. The Rest Of The Raid Is Completely Beatable With Practice, And I Have Completed The Tile Puzzle Several Times (on Both Ends) Without Any Sort Of Cheese Whatsoever, And I Am Far From Good At It. Hell, I Have Seen (3 Times Now) Someone Run And Jump Blind Across The Tile Puzzle After Someone Failed Another, Just For The Sake Of Trying, And Reach The Other Side Successfully - An Abundant Step Monk Only Needs To Land Successfully On Tiles About 3 Times To Pull This Off, Vastly Reducing The Number Of Tiles That Could Drop Out From Under Him.



The Indignation In This Thread Is Just Kind Of Sad; Its A Great Excuse For Players To Feel Morally Superior, Even While Dozens Of Other Quests Are Defeated In Ways That The Quest Designers Did Not Imagine Or Intend.

The Abbot As It Stands Is An Extremely Difficult Raid To Complete (even After The Puzzles, Without Use Of A Cake Of Wishing), And Posters Who Choose To Denigrate Players Who Are Successfully Beating The Ice, Tile And Inferno As Designed (all Trying, Frustrating And Difficult In Their Own Ways) Are Taking Self-righteousness To The Point Of Comedy.

Think About This; You're In A Raid, You Do Your Job And Beat Your Portion, But You Want The 10 People Who Aren't In The Asteroids To Recall In Protest Because They Suspect The Players In It Did Something You Might Find Morally Offensive? Seriously?

No One Said You Had To Go And Do It, But To Denigrate The Coordination, Teamwork And Effort Required By Those Other Players Is Simply Rude And Inconsiderate; That Raid, The Asteroid Puzzle Ignored, Is More Difficult To Complete Than Any Other Raid On Any Difficulty Setting, And Those Capable Of Reliably Solving It - With All The Communication And Thought It Requires To Find The Right Way To Approach Those Puzzles - Deserve To Be Recognized As Having Done An Extraordinary Job. People Should Be Proud Of The First Time They Complete Those Puzzles, Especially Tile; My Group Failed The Raid The First Time I Beat The Tile Puzzle, But I Remain Proud Of Having Done So (even If I Have Mixed Results Repeating The Phenomenon).

Say "i'm Glad Eladrin Is Fixing The ******** Asteroid Puzzle", Then "wow, I'm Really Impressed You Guys Beat The Goggle Puzzle, How Did You Do That? Do You Have Any Tips? How Do You Line Yourselves Up, And Communicate How Far To Run? Do You Always Use The Same Rows Of Tiles?" And Possibly "how'd You Deal W Ith The Inferno? How Many Times Did He Get It Off Before He Died? Did You Get An Encasement Over The Water, Or Heal Through It? How Fast Did He Go Down?"

If It Makes You Feel Better To Wait Til M9 To Run The Raid, More Power To You.



100% True!

[Lebrac]

we are elitist pricks and have a right to be..... neo 1st on sarlona to kill dragon... 1st to kill titan..... a lot of the 1st to kill DQ are now in neo... same with the 1st to kill reaver.... None of these did we have to Cheat in any way to beat you should have seen the stupid way that we did dragon the 1st few times it was so bad but we somehow made it work. along with the stupid ways we did a lot of the other raids to start. i don't know who was the 1st to take out shroud hound or vod because well i really didn't play much at those times and didn't care about being the 1st anymore. and i don't care what anyone thinks the dragon still the hardest raid ever to figure out for the 1st time... it took a LONG time for that raid to get done also one of the funnest.

In closing talk trash about beating a raid by exploiting and calling us names cause we care less about what you think about us then what you care we think about you. play legit it makes the game a lot funner. proven by learning to do the shroud without a big cost or using bugs on that. and yes our way is the pretty much adapted way of everyone now.... so bring your talk i will bring what i have done in the game we see what actually has more merit

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I love the hypocrisy of people's abbot positions; picking up soulstones is clearly a bannable exploit, but blocking in kasquik in the shroud so people can get sp back, or bouncing mob aggro between firewalls, or the old run to the corner of the shroud and pull aggro technique, or wedging the mage between sorjek and a wall in sos, or using a solver for the monestary puzzle (or using the ceiling light, or both), or healing people down the corridors of the twilight forge, or stealth-pulling maldetto in cursed crypt, or any fw-in-the-door aggro strategy, or sleet storming to move arraetrikos in the shroud; those things are all normal and a-ok (if not always necessary or at times silly), even though they frequently lead to quests being defeated 'not in the way they were designed'.


We're not talking about taking soul stones to the asteroids here. In fact, I wouldn't consider that an exploit (my personal test for whether things are an exploit are whether they would be possible 'in real life' and that would be perfectly legit carrying that through a teleport in your backpack). If you don't know what they're doing then it might be best for you not to ask.



Its clear that the developers realize that the asteroid room is unreasonable, and equally clear that they probably don't care how people confront it until they fix it.


The devs have never condoned exploiting.



The rest of the raid is completely beatable with practice, and I have completed the tile puzzle several times (on both ends) without any sort of cheese whatsoever, and I am far from good at it. hell, i have seen (3 times now) someone run and jump blind across the tile puzzle after someone failed another, just for the sake of trying, and reach the other side successfully - an abundant step monk only needs to land successfully on tiles about 3 times to pull this off, vastly reducing the number of tiles that could drop out from under him.


Agree - props to the party (as said in my original post, and my follow up) that they managed these parts of the raid. It's an impressive achievement and takes a lot of coordination and practice.



The indignation in this thread is just kind of sad; its a great excuse for players to feel morally superior, even while dozens of other quests are defeated in ways that the quest designers did not imagine or intend.


No indignation coming from me. I just consider my gaming experience worse because I cannot currently run one of the cornerstone quests in the game - one of the less than a dozen 12 man raids in the game... I also know that the devs look at stats of the successful runs of each quest in the game - and if they think people are running the Abbot 'successfully' then it's going to drop down the priority list of things to fix in the upcoming mod which, again, makes my gaming experience a shallower one.

Garth

[artvan_delet]

This thread is getting sad. Lots of bragging and judging others. Bragging doesnt befit anyone good enough to be able to brag. I joined one of those abbot runs for hte first time yesterday. I applaud the people spending time trying to beat this quest. And being unable to do so legitimately, were very creative and thought outside the box. Literally. It's not the way the devs intended, but hte people were having fun. it's just a game, and I'm glad people are finding ways to have fun together.

I was also saddened that DDO has such a screwed up raid that only 1 percent of players can finish the raid, and maybe only .1 percent of those legitimately. Here's hoping they fix the raid so more people can enjoy it.

[Junts]

We're not talking about taking soul stones to the asteroids here. In fact, I wouldn't consider that an exploit (my personal test for whether things are an exploit are whether they would be possible 'in real life' and that would be perfectly legit carrying that through a teleport in your backpack). If you don't know what they're doing then it might be best for you not to ask.



The devs have never condoned exploiting.



Agree - props to the party (as said in my original post, and my follow up) that they managed these parts of the raid. It's an impressive achievement and takes a lot of coordination and practice.



No indignation coming from me. I just consider my gaming experience worse because I cannot currently run one of the cornerstone quests in the game - one of the less than a dozen 12 man raids in the game... I also know that the devs look at stats of the successful runs of each quest in the game - and if they think people are running the Abbot 'successfully' then it's going to drop down the priority list of things to fix in the upcoming mod which, again, makes my gaming experience a shallower one.

Garth


My post, clearly, was not pointed exclusively at you; I know what you're talking about regarding the asteroid room (I have completed the raid), and I went out of my way to not make any attempt to justify it; in my mind, the devs have left only highly questionable methods of completing that room, know its a problem and are clearly addressing it. In my opinion, they would be addressing the techniques as well -if the puzzle was beatable in other ways-, and are choosing not to because they recognize that players have no other options if they wish to complete the raid until it is redone. I am equally sure that the minimal amount of completions being logged on all servers (I know of almost every group running the abbot on my server; i would estimate we're looking at, tops, 10 completions a week, vs any other raid which is easily getting 5x that a day), and there is no danger in those completions changing Eladrin's tweaks (which I hope are limited to the inferno and the asteroid room; I have no complaint with tile and we now beat it roughly 50% of the time, it simply requires a lot of practice).

In fact, the upcoming changes make me more excited to run the abbot, both because I would like to know that I have defeated as much of it as was possible to defeat before it's changed (especially if it is made easier), and so that I will be good at the parts that go unchanged (especially if tile does not change, which many in our group hope it will not).

Parts of my post were intended for the people in this thread who have flat out asked for the punishment and banning of people who are running this raid; m9 is due soon and we are into that phase where players seek assorted ways to challenge themselves, with more people trying permadeath, solo challenges, short-man challenges, and, as we saw last in september, the abbot - only this time more people are beating it, whereas last time when people declared 'this is abbot month', no one got anywhere.

The barrier to this completion was never asteroids, since people knew as much about it then as they do now; rather, it is that people are learning and disseminating some of the important keys to defeating the very difficult tile puzzle, my guess being that the most notable of those is 'how to line yourself up flawlessly', so people stop going off the front/back of the tile rows, which results in far more tile failures than actual misjudgement of the pattern or someone not following along with their guide. Similarly, people are learning about the sprite clipping issues in aimiing iceball wands, leading to more consistent iceball completions.

The abbot has a ridiculous place in ddo society; people who have one completion run around in their silver-flame or emerald-claw turnin armor and feel special, while those who have many completions hide it as much as possible. The foreign guilds (ddo korea on my server, and fairy tale on sarlona) are much more open about it and have recieved, in my opinion, vastly excessive criticism for completing the raid. If Turbine wanted to do as has been suggested in this thread (strip raid loot, close the quest and ban completers), they could have done so and likely would have months ago, as I know at least 3 guilds on my server have reliably run this twice a week for at least a half a year. Given the sudden and extreme nature of their reaction to the shroud, we know that this power is available to them; that they have chosen not to use it when given repeated opportunities should make it clear they have no intention of doing so.

The reality is that this entire thread is likely to get eaten by the cube, as will other threads like it (like the similar argue-fest going on in the argonessen forums about a completion there), because players are just incapable of being rational, reasoning adults about this raid.

One part of it is completely ********, and the rest of it is challenging, at times frustrating, and extremely rewarding It is unfortunate that so many players are incapable of understanding that those last traits are what draw players to give this raid a whirl while it is a difficult beast; I would be disappointed to see it reach the same difficulty level as the other raids, none of which presents any kind of real failure chance or adrenaline rush except the Hound of Xoriat when run on elite (the only other raid that features enough random things that can make the raid go wrong to fail even with excellent execution). The beautiful thing about the design of Accursed Ascension is that there is no failsafe, easy-button tactic that removes all chance of something going wrong and ensures that completion is simply a matter of time and, for underperforming groups, resources. Many of the game's most fun raids suffer from this; there is not really a chance of failing the shroud, or vision of destruction (to say nothing of lower level raids) on any difficulty with a group appropriate for that difficulty. Only the hound and the abbot offer you the adrenaline-pumping opportunity to do your best and still fail, giving you factors beyond the control of the player.

Which is why no one has been excited in the shroud in ages, and why people get bored with what was intended to be an incredibly hectic raid in vod.

[Quanefel]

This thread is getting sad. Lots of bragging and judging others. Bragging doesnt befit anyone good enough to be able to brag. I joined one of those abbot runs for hte first time yesterday. I applaud the people spending time trying to beat this quest. And being unable to do so legitimately, were very creative and thought outside the box. Literally. It's not the way the devs intended, but hte people were having fun. it's just a game, and I'm glad people are finding ways to have fun together.

I was also saddened that DDO has such a screwed up raid that only 1 percent of players can finish the raid, and maybe only .1 percent of those legitimately. Here's hoping they fix the raid so more people can enjoy it.

Clever is the term when something is done once. Doing it more after that is no longer clever, it becomes a pattern. And if exploiting something to continue the pattern, its still exploiting. Not being clever.

[Baltire]

Clever is the term when something is done once. Doing it more after that is no longer clever, it becomes a pattern. And if exploiting something to continue the pattern, its still exploiting. Not being clever.

I know I said I was done with this thread...but I have to post this.....


HOLY C*RAP, I agree with Q for once....


shoot me now....


OK, now Im really out.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Good post junts.

I will raise one point though - people that say 'I can do this raid any way I like, I'm having fun and it's not affecting anyone else' - well I will respectfully disagree with that - and this was the point I have stressed in every post I've made in this thread. The completions of the raid *do* affect my gaming enjoyment, not only because of the dev time that might be diverted away from really fixing the Abbot when they see all these seemingly legitimate completions, but also because it's devaluing the raid loot that I should only be obtaining by doing the raid legitimately. Raid loot devaluation affects everyone.

Examine when the Shroud was being exploited by chain lightning and people were zooming through part 3 and then bugging harry in part 5 and ending up doing regular sub 15 minute pug completions - that resulted in the devaluing of large ingredients, the proliferation of green steel items and thus (albeit indirectly) the inflation of quest difficulty as a result for those players who chose not to exploit.

And I haven't even talked about how I might want to try and complete the raid legitimately - but someone ports to Asteroids and cracks open a can of Wensleydale on the platform without me even knowing thus indirectly involving me in exploitation tactics and potentially griefing my raid.

Yes I know some of these arguments are a bit far fetched but to say that people exploiting a raid doesn't affect others in the game is slightly short sighted.

Garth

[Junts]

Good post junts.

I will raise one point though - people that say 'I can do this raid any way I like, I'm having fun and it's not affecting anyone else' - well I will respectfully disagree with that - and this was the point I have stressed in every post I've made in this thread. The completions of the raid *do* affect my gaming enjoyment, not only because of the dev time that might be diverted away from really fixing the Abbot when they see all these seemingly legitimate completions, but also because it's devaluing the raid loot that I should only be obtaining by doing the raid legitimately. Raid loot devaluation affects everyone.

Examine when the Shroud was being exploited by chain lightning and people were zooming through part 3 and then bugging harry in part 5 and ending up doing regular sub 15 minute pug completions - that resulted in the devaluing of large ingredients, the proliferation of green steel items and thus (albeit indirectly) the inflation of quest difficulty as a result for those players who chose not to exploit.

And I haven't even talked about how I might want to try and complete the raid legitimately - but someone ports to Asteroids and cracks open a can of Wensleydale on the platform without me even knowing thus indirectly involving me in exploitation tactics and potentially griefing my raid.

Yes I know some of these arguments are a bit far fetched but to say that people exploiting a raid doesn't affect others in the game is slightly short sighted.

Garth


I can see that argument but I still question it; I doubt that all this produces enough litanys of the dead or vile blasphemies to affect any kind of quest design or, for that matter, performance, given how few of the abbot raidloot items are really good and, for one of the ones that is, how few characters can use it without penalty anyway.

Circles of hatred aren't threatening the value of 13 and 15 intim items, nor are enduring convictions threatening banishing ss/rapiers (and the second is unfortunate, since more toons that stuck to a slash spec and were rewarded would benefit the game).


There are so few completions and the barrier to get them (asteroids aside) is so high that the parallel to the shroud is just inaccurate; a lot of luck and persistance is involved and there's just no danger that people are going to acquire so many items out of there that it changes quest balancing; in fact, we know eladrin has already redone the quest for m9, so even the 'danger of them thinking it is ok' is well past; I would bet money that they know exactly how completions are happening and their attitude amounts to 'it doesn't matter, that's why we're redoing the raid'.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I can see that argument but I still question it; I doubt that all this produces enough litanys of the dead or vile blasphemies to affect any kind of quest design or, for that matter, performance, given how few of the abbot raidloot items are really good and, for one of the ones that is, how few characters can use it without penalty anyway.

Circles of hatred aren't threatening the value of 13 and 15 intim items, nor are enduring convictions threatening banishing ss/rapiers (and the second is unfortunate, since more toons that stuck to a slash spec and were rewarded would benefit the game)

True - but it still gives me a nasty taste in my mouth every time I see someone running around with a Silver Flame Outfit or one of those fancy spikey bows, when I know for a fact that it's been obtained illegitimately*. That's not fun.

Garth

*characters I know were created after the Abbot was patched to make puzzles mandatory.

[Justin1341]

True - but it still gives me a nasty taste in my mouth every time I see someone running around with a Silver Flame Outfit or one of those fancy spikey bows, when I know for a fact that it's been obtained illegitimately*. That's not fun.

Garth

*characters I know were created after the Abbot was patched to make puzzles mandatory.

Garth, we worked HARD for our items. Pike off.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Garth, we worked HARD for our items. Pike off.

Criminals work hard to rob banks. Doesn't make it legitimate. If you resort to insults then I'm sure I won't be the only only clicking the little exclamation mark.

Garth

[Junts]

True - but it still gives me a nasty taste in my mouth every time I see someone running around with a Silver Flame Outfit or one of those fancy spikey bows, when I know for a fact that it's been obtained illegitimately*. That's not fun.

Garth

*characters I know were created after the Abbot was patched to make puzzles mandatory.

I understand your sentiment but being familiar with the effort and resources involved in winning anyway I admit I rather feel like people deserve them; then again, I've got some nightshield clickies myself so I'm probably biased in that regard.

Even as it stands, none of the loot (except litany) is worth the effort on a pure cost/benefit analysis.

[Justin1341]

Criminals work hard to rob banks. Doesn't make it legitimate. If you resort to insults then I'm sure I won't be the only only clicking the little exclamation mark.

Garth

Pike off is not a violation of the CoC. I was told this by a Senior GM. Would you like screenshots?

[KatanAztar]

Criminals work hard to rob banks. Doesn't make it legitimate. If you resort to insults then I'm sure I won't be the only only clicking the little exclamation mark.

Garth

They are not claiming it to be legit and are not denying their methods. Anyone in the "know" knows it's still a tough quest despite the cheese.

[Deathe]

Everyone that completed should be banned? Wow, so like, I join a pug, the leader says "Dethe go in first and beat on the Abbot", I do, I die, no res came, what they did I really don't know cuz really I wasn't really paying attention, was busy watching porn on my other monitor. I got favor, whoot! No raid loot, boo. Banned? Um, okay.

More than anything I'm just taken aback by the better-than-thou snobbery in here. I join a lotta pugs, I like diversity in groups, meeting new people, and not always running quests the same way. It's disappointing that there has been so much attitude from people that I've run with quite a bit over the last number of years, the crass and often pompous tone that has been used is unattractive at best.

While I certainly can see room for disagreement and have no issue with people voicing their opinions, the level of hostility in this thread is unquestionably uncalled for.

- Dethe

PS On a side note I think anyone who used the word "cheese" in this thread should be banned, I find it annoying and offensive. =)

[Dummmmy]

lol the word pompous makes me laugh

[edaciousx]

you guys are such a bunch of panzys. if we complete it, who cares? the number of abbot completions compared to other raids clearly shows that the abbot raid is broken.

And, for you all that are crying over us beating it, regardless of how we beat it... quit being a bunch of lamers. who cares if other people complete it. we compelted it, so what???

Seriously, there's more things in life to be bugered by than a few people playing a video game and beating a raid.

I mean seriously, go watch the news. Plenty of better things to be bothered by. you lamers.

[spyderwolf]

i havent done the abbott in months and dont feel the need to even try it.(at least not until mod 9) but i could really care less if others exploit and beat it. in the end who cares if someone does something in a way you dont approve of. until you pay for their account you cant have any control over it. i respect alot of you neos alot, but i know 100% for certain that some members have exploited in the past. so its kinda funny to me that a few of you are coming off so vehemently on the group who did the abbott. im not saying this to attack anyone or NSR. but jsut to add a little outside perspective. you cant 2 and 3 man the reaver in the safe spot while you could do so, and then get down on people for doing a different raid using an exploit.


p.s. in no way,shape , or form am i bagging nsr, jsut stating how this thread looks to me reading it.

p.s.s and im not taking a high road here. you do what ya wanna do to beat anything since you are paying for your own account.

[soupertc]

Dang Jerry.....seems some people have made a mountain out of a mole hill!!!

I agree with both sides....cause it's easier....and it really don't matter.

[soupertc]

we are elitist pricks and have a right to be.....

out of everything said in this thread this has to be the most bizzare.

[Baron]

True - but it still gives me a nasty taste in my mouth every time I see someone running around with a Silver Flame Outfit or one of those fancy spikey bows, when I know for a fact that it's been obtained illegitimately*. That's not fun.

Garth

*characters I know were created after the Abbot was patched to make puzzles mandatory.


Hmmmm, I have some toons that completed the raid when you could just beat him down (Pre Nurf) and another who completed the raid we are discussing here (Post Nerf). Do you know all of my older toons?

I have examined the toons from all directions and have not found the "He completed it after the nerf tag".

Prey tell us where that is? I am so worried about "that taste in your mouth".

We had a lot of fun on the first unsucessful attempt and the second sucessful run.

This in spike of a bugged room that can not be done the way it is set up and I get to log in and find squeaks by some mice who I know have been at the cheese in other parts of the DDO barn in days past.

I remember watching lots of folks running in and out of the Reaver while I sat outside on my toons and watched the rapidly changing LFM's way back when. Some familar names. Of course I was not in there so I can not say what if anything was going on so I kept quiet.

I have noticed the great thing about soap boxes is often when someone gets up on one and really gets at it the sweat begins to fall onto that dry soap and after a while they tend to slide off and bust the speaking part of their body.

People who know me know that the abbot roid room is the only place I go around the the Dev approved method and just that one room. Because it can not be done otherwise, it has been nerfed for over a year and I want to do the raid on all my toons for favor.

The nice part is I do not partically care about other people's toons and their equipment.

I am here to have fun.

I do care when I am insulted by inference by those "cold and timid souls who know neither the victory or defeat" at the hands of a bugged raid and then whine about those who went into the arena.

[artvan_delet]

Good post junts.

I will raise one point though - people that say 'I can do this raid any way I like, I'm having fun and it's not affecting anyone else' - well I will respectfully disagree with that - and this was the point I have stressed in every post I've made in this thread. The completions of the raid *do* affect my gaming enjoyment, not only because of the dev time that might be diverted away from really fixing the Abbot when they see all these seemingly legitimate completions, but also because it's devaluing the raid loot that I should only be obtaining by doing the raid legitimately. Raid loot devaluation affects everyone.

Examine when the Shroud was being exploited by chain lightning and people were zooming through part 3 and then bugging harry in part 5 and ending up doing regular sub 15 minute pug completions - that resulted in the devaluing of large ingredients, the proliferation of green steel items and thus (albeit indirectly) the inflation of quest difficulty as a result for those players who chose not to exploit.

And I haven't even talked about how I might want to try and complete the raid legitimately - but someone ports to Asteroids and cracks open a can of Wensleydale on the platform without me even knowing thus indirectly involving me in exploitation tactics and potentially griefing my raid.

Yes I know some of these arguments are a bit far fetched but to say that people exploiting a raid doesn't affect others in the game is slightly short sighted.

Garth

I don't agree that the Shroud was fixed because the devs were watching completions. The Shroud was "fixed" because so many complained about the exploits, in my opinion. I agree that raid loot devaluation affects everyone, but there are so few completions of this raid, that's not an issue yet. I have no sympathy for Turbine regarding the abbot however, because they have known this quest has been buggered for over a year. And they haven't lifted a finger so far. Again, here's hoping they fix this quest.

Perhaps the vitriol in this thread will get some dev attention.

[lishufeng86]

you guys are such a bunch of panzys. if we complete it, who cares? the number of abbot completions compared to other raids clearly shows that the abbot raid is broken.

And, for you all that are crying over us beating it, regardless of how we beat it... quit being a bunch of lamers. who cares if other people complete it. we compelted it, so what???

Seriously, there's more things in life to be bugered by than a few people playing a video game and beating a raid.

I mean seriously, go watch the news. Plenty of better things to be bothered by. you lamers.

agree
in china we always said : 吃不到葡萄说葡萄酸
lol

[Mockduck]

Dang Jerry.....seems some people have made a mountain out of a mole hill!!!

I agree with both sides....cause it's easier....and it really don't matter.

Yeah, but I should have known that this issue's a bit too controversial. I blame myself! Still, it's been interesting to read (for the most part). I find myself agreeing with both sides to some extent as well.

I'm glad the Abbot is getting a change in Mod 9. Hopefully, it'll end this debate.

The best I've done in the asteroid room is probably a dozen or so asteroids, maybe a bit more. My big regret is that I could never beat it! I generally get high scores on the '78 Asteroids game, so this one always bugs me...

[Baron]

The moral being it is easy to despise what you can not get.

Save the translation for some. :}

吃不到葡萄说葡萄酸 I meant.

While I am thinking of it if a Dev is lurking, when will we be able to cut and paste other languages into the chat window in game?

[Healemup]

When I was at GenCon this past year I spoke with one of the employees at Turbine (no need to mention the name so that they don't have to be subjected to the wrath of this thread) about the Abbot. I was ranting (well mildly complaining... I did have a drink or two prior to this conversation) about how I couldn't complete my favor whoring and that others had (especially during the first few weeks when elite completions were happening).

The feedback I got was paraphrased like this: **We can't win. People complain that there isn't anything challenging enough in the game that requires a coordinated effort for twelve people working together, but when we give them something that is, they complain that it is too hard.**

My response to this was (well maybe is now, its so hard to remember what I said then):

The Abbot doesn't require the effort of 12 people, it really takes the effort of 3 groups of 2 any of which that can't do the job means the quest fails without any possbility of recovery. The other 6 people serve very little purpose. If they are left behind, as would be the case if you followed the "Don't Die" axiom, they just run around avoiding death. Their efforts don't do anything to help the party complete the quest (aside from a few mob kills) at least as far as I have deciphered. Now, if all three of the areas that the people were teleported to did not instantly result in a raid failure, but rather extended the encounter until another attempt could be made to return and attempt again, people would be inclined to keep expending resources to get them done. Then, instead of randomly having people return to the areas make it so that ones that failed at it previously don't get ot return to it. Then, if everyone has a chance to complete it, but you still can't, then the raid fails.

Basically, I went on to describe how the ones who felt they needed a challenge don't view the Abbot as a success was not due to the difficulty in completing it, but rather, by the only type of methods given (lets call them "less than desirable" to be slightly less derogatory or flamable) to them. In fact, even a highly dedicated group of highly skilled players don't stand a much better chance than a group of PUGs in completing it without said tactics.

I think I ended with a frothing rant (I liked to get worked up about this particular area of this subject) about the favor that others got and I couldn't (wasn't even seeing groups to get in to do the favor if I wanted to at the time).

[Angelus_dead]

The feedback I got was paraphrased like this: **We can't win. People complain that there isn't anything challenging enough in the game that requires a coordinated effort for twelve people working together, but when we give them something that is, they complain that it is too hard.**
Yeah, I know that was part of the reasoning... maybe not why they built the Abbot like they did (which could've been accidental), but why they left it like that.

But as you obviously know, that reasoning doesn't make sense in some very serious ways. That's why I was so curious about their thought process on it. In particular, they seemed to have learned their lesson from the Titan raid, which originally had the same problem, although they fixed it after only 3 months (which at the time seemed like a stupidly long delay, and which cost customers). They'd really seemed to have learned something from that fiasco, but maybe only part of their staff was paying attention, because later when the Abbot had been broken for a while we got this horrible post (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1347377#post1347377) (turns out that was when it was still only in the initial stage of Seriously Broken, not the later Ludicrously Broken after the counterproductive attempt to fix it).

Overall, it's a really bad sign when designers can't go out in public and report if a feature is working in approximately the way they intended, or even reveal what that intention was.


Basically, I went on to describe how the ones who felt they needed a challenge don't view the Abbot as a success was not due to the difficulty in completing it
Part of the problem is that some small number of people report that they like the Abbot raid:
1. Some are noobs who think they like hard stuff, but haven't even tried Abbot and don't know what they're talking about.
2. Some don't really like it, but they don't want to admit they exploited to win, so they claim it's OK.
3. Some are victims of effort justification (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14765576), where a difficult task is reported as more enjoyable than it was, because otherwise would mean admitting you've been wasting time.
4. Some are elitist jerks, who like the feeling of being "hackers" exploiting the system.

[Mical]

cheesy tactics aside, and other nonsense that really isn't worth arguing over

it was still fun to be challenged in a raid, and thats why i run it
not for the loot
not for the xp
not for the favor

but for the enjoyment of (partially)being challenged by the abott

so yea thnx to those that ran with me, lots of fun

[Angelus_dead]

My response to this was (well maybe is now, its so hard to remember what I said then):
The Abbot doesn't require the effort of 12 people, it really takes the effort of 3 groups of 2 any of which that can't do the job means the quest fails without any possbility of recovery. The other 6 people serve very little purpose.
If we pretend the Abbot challenges weren't broken, meaning that a good player with a lot of practice could beat any of them over 95% of the time, then the goal of requiring 12 good people would actually have approximately been achieved. (We also must pretend there wasn't a workaround of allowing yourself to die if you don't want to be teleported)

You see, in that case you'd only need 6 good people to complete the puzzles, but because the puzzle assignment is random you'd really want all 12 people to be able to solve puzzles. Having even one member unable to complete would be running the chance of a raid failure. If the "normal" result of 12 skilled players is raid victory, then having even 1 non-skilled player creates a 50% chance of raid failure*, which is a significant motivator to get 100% skilled people.

But of course we know it didn't work out like that, because the challenges are broken. Even a group of all good players will fail the raid more than they succeed. So having a couple of unskilled players who can't beat any puzzle doesn't really change the outcome, because you already expected to (at best) fail several tiems in a row before getting lucky enough to win. With that as the baseline, an extra 50% chance to fail isn't much of a punishment (especially if you know the trick about how the puzzle assignment isn't really random)

[Nuckin]

wow... this thread has gotten crazy... I originally had this huge message in my head that I was gonna type out but decided it wasn't worth it lol.

The moral of the story isn't that we are "jealous" that we cannot get raid loot from the Abbott, because quite frankly anyone with enough practice can beat the Abbott using exploits... it comes down to the fact that we choose not to exploit to obtain those items.

The main thing about exploiting is that in either directly or indirectly affects EVERYONE! your decision to cheat affects those who choose to obey the rules and wait until it is possible to be ran w/o cheese or exploits. Just think about all the past exploits especially the shroud.... The use of exploits by certain people/Guilds completely affected EVERYONE and their experience in the raid along with their game play... This is why people get so mad about posts like this... We understand the raid is hard itself and the fact that you guys have successfully completed certain parts of the raid the way it was intended is very awesome... but exploiting certain parts of it and gaining certain raid items because of it is wrong no matter how u look at it....

Just because this is a game doesn't mean that your morals and respect for other should just be tossed out the window... or maybe most of the people exploiting never had any in the first place...

[BigNastyMP]

I support Willphase %100.
I am okay with being perceived as high and mighty, I am usually both quite high and quite mighty.

I always wonder, what is it that the exploiters are trying to compensate for?

[moops]

I see alot of hypocrisy in this thread.

I see people that exploited The Reaver back in the day in a couple different ways. . .
People who Ransancked every toon they had for The Tome page Exploit. . .
People who Exploited the DQ. . .
People who still don't complete Titan as intended by the Devs. . .
I see these people preaching at others.

Now, I suppose one could argue that bypassing some Titan stuff is not an exploit since the Devs have not fixed it like they have the other stuff. . .but I'm sure that the devs never intended for us to all pull the same color stone by doing a neat little trick with the dialogue box. . ..

It is the hypocrisy of this thread that makes me sick.

[Quanefel]

I see alot of hypocrisy in this thread.

I see people that exploited The Reaver back in the day in a couple different ways. . .
People who Ransancked every toon they had for The Tome page Exploit. . .
People who Exploited the DQ. . .
People who still don't complete Titan as intended by the Devs. . .
I see these people preaching at others.

Now, I suppose one could argue that bypassing some Titan stuff is not an exploit since the Devs have not fixed it like they have the other stuff. . .but I'm sure that the devs never intended for us to all pull the same color stone by doing a neat little trick with the dialogue box. . ..

It is the hypocrisy of this thread that makes me sick.

And the last group of people you left out, the ones who have no wish to exploit this raid or anything for that matter. It is rather interesting you left those people out of your selective outrage of hypocrisy.

[soupertc]

And the last group of people you left out, the ones who have no wish to exploit this raid or anything for that matter. It is rather interesting you left those people out of your selective outrage of hypocrisy.

I think her point was cause maybe the post she was talking about were people that she had run with before....not in general.

[Thelmallen]

Originally Posted by Lebrac
we are elitist pricks and have a right to be.....


out of everything said in this thread this has to be the most bizzare.

So true....

[Deathe]

lol, I <3 Moops.

Hex, I'll give ya a mil plat if you name names!!! :)

- Dethe

[Erchamion]

So here we stand at the intersection of the moral compass. Which way is right? Each of has to decide that for ourselves. We (NSR) as a group have long stood for running the content as intended, in spirit, and as a guild principle. Sure, there are examples where people have deviated from that principle over the years, but they are few are far between, and for the mose part unintentional. Could we have made our point in a different way, perhaps, but I beleive the energy and focus on the topic exemplifies the importance of the accomplishment we feel when we complete the difficult raids. We have tried hard, and at great expense to our personal lives, to accomplish as much as we can in the game. With that effort brings a sense of entitlement, respect, and a responsibility to help others in game. Don't judge us based on one thread, look at our historical contributions to the game and the players, they are vast and well documented.

So my message is this, be yourself. If that means we disagree on how to solve a particular raid, then fine, it's a free country. I do beleive Garth speaks for the majority though that fair game play is hard work, and those that belittle the effort by using expolits are an issue to us all.

If you exploit, there's a risk, you accept it and live with the results (getting banned, sometimes multiple times ;). If it's fun for you and you get a thrill from the possibility of losing 3yrs of work, more power to you.

To me it looks like NSR has a big challenge ahead in Mod9 to down the Abbott once and for all IF the new changes make it possible in a legit manner. Stay tuned.

[Erchamion]

I see alot of hypocrisy in this thread.

I see people that exploited The Reaver back in the day in a couple different ways. . .
People who Ransancked every toon they had for The Tome page Exploit. . .
People who Exploited the DQ. . .
People who still don't complete Titan as intended by the Devs. . .
I see these people preaching at others.

Now, I suppose one could argue that bypassing some Titan stuff is not an exploit since the Devs have not fixed it like they have the other stuff. . .but I'm sure that the devs never intended for us to all pull the same color stone by doing a neat little trick with the dialogue box. . ..

It is the hypocrisy of this thread that makes me sick.

Hey Hexxa my dear, I beleive Brood and Matty are provoking a certain individual on puropse and not everyone in general as that individual has lost their right to play the game multiple times and still posts/plays and thinks they deserve respect. I can only hope the Cube catches him and bans him for the 3rd or 4th time, I don't know I've lost track... Nonetheless, his ability to stir up controversy and strife have not laxxed, and clearly he has not learned his lesson.

Besides, we're Clerics we prefer peace so let's graciouosly bow out of this battle and let the powers that be decide whom deserves the infractions in this case.

Best wishes,
Erch

[bobbryan2]

The only comment that really stood out to me was...

So instead of taking the higher moral ground and not running it
You chose to exploit it?

Seriously? That's where all you guys are coming from? That somehow it's more moral to simply not run the content, then to beat it 'some' way?

You can't seriously believe that Turbine wants people to not even go in there. Why would they have put all that effort if their end goal was to have a raid that nobody ran.

I'm sure Turbine would rather someone try to beat it any way possible rather than all the masses not even zone in. To say otherwise is ludicrous. I can't believe you guys actually think Turbine wants people to ignore content... and not only that... but that it's the moral high ground to do so.

You guys need to focus your righteous indignation at Turbine for leaving this raid this broken for over a year... not the players that try to make lemonade out of lemons.

[frugal_gourmet]

Let me be the first to laud this accomplishment in a completely backhanded manner. Allow me to casually dismiss it by pointing out how the quest is broken and only beatable by using exploits.

Did I say first?

I meant 67th.

[bobbryan2]

I'll be high and mighty because if you can't beat it as the developers have intended, you haven't truly beaten it.


Yes... obviously you are closer to what the devs intended. They obviously intended on no one ever running this quest, and actually boycotting the raid that was the culmination of three modules of storytelling.

If I had to choose between two people that were closer to doing what the devs intended between

Person A) Who sits on his butt, boycotts the raid, and accuses everyone who attempts the raid as being morally bankrupt

and

Person B) Who tries to beat the raid to the best of his ability...

I'm gonna go with B every single time. If you don't want to run it.. fine. But don't accuse others of doing things the devs didn't intend... because you are too.

[Baltire]

Let me clarify some things for people that like to spin words...

NSR for the most part can care less about doing the Abbot raid...

When its able to be completed without exploiting, we will try it...

Not one person in NSR is "jealous" of any other person for having Abbot raid loot, if they wanted it, Im sure theyd be right there with you.

As for being hypocritical, I dont remember anywhere in one of my posts ( and if I did say it, it was not intended) that I care about other people doing this raid "cheese" or not. I merely dont want to hear about it on the forums like its some big accomplishment.

As many have stated in this post, doing the puzzles that can be completed as intended is a good accomplishment. But if you have to finish the quest by doing any one of these "cheese" methods, you havent completed the entire raid.

Take the loot, enjoy it. I dont care about that, but dont flaunt it in everyone who doesnt feel like doing it your way's face. You can do this quest every time you come off timer as far as Im concerned, but stop posting on the forums that you beat the raid, when you clearly have not.

If not wanting to hear about you exploiting the game is being a hypocrite, then maybe I am.

Either way, no one is right. End of the day, the quest is still broken.

[bobbryan2]

Let me clarify some things for people that like to spin words...

NSR for the most part can care less about doing the Abbot raid...

When its able to be completed without exploiting, we will try it...

Not one person in NSR is "jealous" of any other person for having Abbot raid loot, if they wanted it, Im sure theyd be right there with you.

As for being hypocritical, I dont remember anywhere in one of my posts ( and if I did say it, it was not intended) that I care about other people doing this raid "cheese" or not. I merely dont want to hear about it on the forums like its some big accomplishment.

As many have stated in this post, doing the puzzles that can be completed as intended is a good accomplishment. But if you have to finish the quest by doing any one of these "cheese" methods, you havent completed the entire raid.

Take the loot, enjoy it. I dont care about that, but dont flaunt it in everyone who doesnt feel like doing it your way's face. You can do this quest every time you come off timer as far as Im concerned, but stop posting on the forums that you beat the raid, when you clearly have not.

If not wanting to hear about you exploiting the game is being a hypocrite, then maybe I am.

Either way, no one is right. End of the day, the quest is still broken.

Who really cares? The asteroid puzzle probably won't even exist in two months. I only have a problem with players that lay all the blame on other players when it's clearly the devs fault the raid is like it is.

[GeneralDiomedes]

c
it was still fun to be challenged in a raid, and thats why i run it
not for the loot
not for the xp
not for the favor

but for the enjoyment of (partially)being challenged by the abott


Then why didn't you recall before looting the chest?

If you want to have fun, and possibly run the raid for purposes of providing feedback to Turbine (which is a legitimate reason) then just recall.

[frugal_gourmet]

Who really cares? The asteroid puzzle probably won't even exist in two months. I only have a problem with players that lay all the blame on other players when it's clearly the devs fault the raid is like it is.


I blame the society and culture that engenders the players who exploit the content. When you think about it, the root of this problem is socioeconomic in nature. Or something.

Also, albino pygmies. Pretty sure they had something to do with it.

[bobbryan2]

Then why didn't you recall before looting the chest?

If you want to have fun, and possibly run the raid for purposes of providing feedback to Turbine (which is a legitimate reason) then just recall.

That goes from Lawful good to Lawful stupid pretty fast.

[GeneralDiomedes]

That goes from Lawful good to Lawful stupid pretty fast.

Just pointing out that it wasn't all about the fun.

[Baltire]

Who really cares? The asteroid puzzle probably won't even exist in two months. I only have a problem with players that lay all the blame on other players when it's clearly the devs fault the raid is like it is.

Apparently alot of people care as shown by the 100+ posts in this thread, either for or against, its clear that a bunch of people care.

[BigNastyMP]

I respond with righteous indignation at what I perceive to be your righteous indignation! My hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Also, it is not that we are not jealous of abbott loot, it is that we are not envious of abbott loot. Jealousy is not envy. My hypocrisy only goes so far.

[Thelmallen]

As for being hypocritical, I dont remember anywhere in one of my posts ( and if I did say it, it was not intended) that I care about other people doing this raid "cheese" or not. I merely dont want to hear about it on the forums like its some big accomplishment.

You don't have to read the forums. You can be your own censor.

Take the loot, enjoy it. I dont care about that, but dont flaunt it in everyone who doesnt feel like doing it your way's face. You can do this quest every time you come off timer as far as Im concerned, but stop posting on the forums that you beat the raid, when you clearly have not.

While I agree with your point, bud, nobody flaunted it. A post was made of some screenies but the poster was not saying "booyah! in your face! i have an oooober robe that you don't neeenerneenerneener!"

Either way, no one is right. End of the day, the quest is still broken.

You speak the truth, sir. Please fix this dang thing so we don't have to endure differences of opinion like this.


Replies in red

[Baltire]

Replies in red

With many of the people in this thread agreeing that this raid is unbeatable without using the "cheese" tactics and ways that have been talked about, just by posting that they have beaten an unbeatable raid is flaunting it.

[Cadaia]

Criminals work hard to rob banks. Doesn't make it legitimate.

It takes a lot of planning and coordination. Just like 'cheesing' these raids.

[Thelmallen]

It takes a lot of planning and coordination. Just like 'cheesing' these raids.

Do you know from personal experience or did you watch Ocean's Eleven recently?

[soupertc]

do You Know From Personal Experience Or Did You Watch ocean's Eleven Recently?

Lol

[Cadaia]

Do you know from personal experience or did you watch Ocean's Eleven recently?
I think I'll plead the fifth on that.

[Tanka]

Yes... obviously you are closer to what the devs intended. They obviously intended on no one ever running this quest, and actually boycotting the raid that was the culmination of three modules of storytelling.

If I had to choose between two people that were closer to doing what the devs intended between

Person A) Who sits on his butt, boycotts the raid, and accuses everyone who attempts the raid as being morally bankrupt

and

Person B) Who tries to beat the raid to the best of his ability...

I'm gonna go with B every single time. If you don't want to run it.. fine. But don't accuse others of doing things the devs didn't intend... because you are too.
If a raid is broken and "cannot be physically beat without exploiting", then, no, nobody should run it. If the Devs see zero runs/completions because of how broken it is, it might actually motivate them to do something about it rather than let it fester for a whole year before saying "oh, yeah, I've got some changes lined up for M9".

The Abbot is the red-headed stepchild of DDO, and it always will be. From now until its death cries every raid will be compared to the Abbot. Even if it gets fixed to being able to be completed reliably without exploits, there are only two items worth a hoot, and one of them is only if you're a ranged character (which are fewer and fewer now).

Exploiting to beat a broken raid is not an achievement. In my book, it isn't a win. Yes, it increments your /quest completions, but you didn't win. You didn't actually beat the Asteroids, you just froze your client long enough to "get past."

[Fourfingers]

you just froze your client long enough to "get past."

If/when that exploit is fixed, it will likely eliminate the topic for this thread. When people are no longer able to use that method to bypass tile timing and asteroid area effects this raid will revert back to incompletable. That is, until hopefully the changes in mod 9.

I strongly suspect, that if you had a developer sitting next to you, and showed them how you were getting past the goggle and asteroid puzzles, aside from getting bored waiting to complete the quest over an hour later, they would call it cheese and not as intended. So, while it increments your /quest cheese completions, it still amounts to zero in the actual accomplishment category.

[bobbryan2]

If a raid is broken and "cannot be physically beat without exploiting", then, no, nobody should run it. If the Devs see zero runs/completions because of how broken it is, it might actually motivate them to do something about it rather than let it fester for a whole year before saying "oh, yeah, I've got some changes lined up for M9".

The Abbot is the red-headed stepchild of DDO, and it always will be. From now until its death cries every raid will be compared to the Abbot. Even if it gets fixed to being able to be completed reliably without exploits, there are only two items worth a hoot, and one of them is only if you're a ranged character (which are fewer and fewer now).

Exploiting to beat a broken raid is not an achievement. In my book, it isn't a win. Yes, it increments your /quest completions, but you didn't win. You didn't actually beat the Asteroids, you just froze your client long enough to "get past."

The Devs ARE motivated to fixing Abbot. Even now that completions are rolling in. I don't know why they took so long. You should ask them. I guarantee it didn't take them so long to fix it because they though, "oh, well, I guess we don't need to fix it, cuz everyone's exploiting it all the time. hooray!"

No.. the moral high ground is never to simply 'not play the game.'

I'm sure devs would rather players do things they didn't intend rather than not run the raid at all.

And as far as it being an achievement.. of course it is. It doesn't matter what your book says. Even with cheese, the Abbot puzzles are a ton harder than playing Lights Out or Mastermind.

Hey... if you want to get a stick up your butt, go ahead. Just do it on your own, and don't blast people that are trying their best. Blast the devs for the sorry state of the Abbot.

[Tanka]

The Devs ARE motivated to fixing Abbot. Even now that completions are rolling in. I don't know why they took so long. You should ask them. I guarantee it didn't take them so long to fix it because they though, "oh, well, I guess we don't need to fix it, cuz everyone's exploiting it all the time. hooray!"

No.. the moral high ground is never to simply 'not play the game.'

I'm sure devs would rather players do things they didn't intend rather than not run the raid at all.

And as far as it being an achievement.. of course it is. It doesn't matter what your book says. Even with cheese, the Abbot puzzles are a ton harder than playing Lights Out or Mastermind.

Hey... if you want to get a stick up your butt, go ahead. Just do it on your own, and don't blast people that are trying their best. Blast the devs for the sorry state of the Abbot.
I've "blasted" both in the past. Players who cheat (do note cheating/exploiting is against the CoC and can result in permanent account banning) and Devs who don't fix obviously broken quests because they'd rather let them sit and fester forever until enough exploited completions roll through that they have to do something or look like they're giving exploits the go-ahead.

Too little too late in either way, as it's common practice to exploit Abbot now. Just like it was with Death Pact or summons for the Shroud.

Exploits are exploits. Using them cheapens the game significantly. If people want to brag about exploiting, cool. Maybe the GMs will do something about it this time around.

[Junts]

I've "blasted" both in the past. Players who cheat (do note cheating/exploiting is against the CoC and can result in permanent account banning) and Devs who don't fix obviously broken quests because they'd rather let them sit and fester forever until enough exploited completions roll through that they have to do something or look like they're giving exploits the go-ahead.

Too little too late in either way, as it's common practice to exploit Abbot now. Just like it was with Death Pact or summons for the Shroud.

Exploits are exploits. Using them cheapens the game significantly. If people want to brag about exploiting, cool. Maybe the GMs will do something about it this time around.

Tanka's reponses were so predictable I should have made a bet with someone. We bow to your moral fortitude and superiority, dude. Life must be so easy with moral absolutes like that.

[Junts]

If/when that exploit is fixed, it will likely eliminate the topic for this thread. When people are no longer able to use that method to bypass tile timing and asteroid area effects this raid will revert back to incompletable. That is, until hopefully the changes in mod 9.

I strongly suspect, that if you had a developer sitting next to you, and showed them how you were getting past the goggle and asteroid puzzles, aside from getting bored waiting to complete the quest over an hour later, they would call it cheese and not as intended. So, while it increments your /quest cheese completions, it still amounts to zero in the actual accomplishment category.

Dunno what's happening on sarlona, but the phase tile puzzle is legitimately beatable and we do it about half the time

If people need tricks to bbeat it, they're just sad.

[Tanka]

Tanka's reponses were so predictable I should have made a bet with someone. We bow to your moral fortitude and superiority, dude. Life must be so easy with moral absolutes like that.
Then, please, show me you can beat the Asteroids without exploiting. Until then, I question every completion announcement that comes up.

[bobbryan2]

Then, please, show me you can beat the Asteroids without exploiting. Until then, I question every completion announcement that comes up.

Who cares if you question it. Last time I checked, you weren't the logger of all things achievements.

Why don't you just let them have their moment of triumph and stay out of it?

[Tanka]

Who cares if you question it. Last time I checked, you weren't the logger of all things achievements.

Why don't you just let them have their moment of triumph and stay out of it?
Cheating isn't an achievement.

[Justin1341]

a⋅chieve⋅ment
   /əˈtʃivmənt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-cheev-muhnt] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. something accomplished

We ACCOMPLISHED beating the Abbott. That was our goal. So we did ACHIEVE something.

[Tanka]

a⋅chieve⋅ment
   /əˈtʃivmənt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-cheev-muhnt] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. something accomplished

We ACCOMPLISHED beating the Abbott. That was our goal. So we did ACHIEVE something.
You skipped the part where you didn't fully complete it by exploiting and bypassing the Asteroids room.

You may have increased your /quest completions, but it doesn't make it an achievement worth merit.

[Deathe]

lol, Tanka perhaps you had some big come to Jesus moment this week but by your own measure ("if you can't beat it as the developers have intended") you are both a hypocrite and a liar. Yep, I said it. Ya know, it's one thing to respectfully voice a disagreement or opinion but to climb up on some new found moral pulpit and expound on the sanctimonious integrity of gaming when you Sir are guilty of exploiting (by your own definition) is simply galling. I'm sure you've reconciled your own improprieties and rationalized the countless "exploits" that you yourself partake/have partaken in (many of which were already so eloquently outlined by Junts earlier in this thread) but the fact of the matter is that you are not quite the innocent you present yourself to be. Actually, none of the folks that are now finding it necessary to spout off with their feigned self-righteous indignation are.

Look, I'm not condoning exploits by any stretch but c'mon now, drop the act folks. The abuse of aggro management and exploitation of a less than stellar AI combined with the countless other workarounds and "creative" strategies that are now commonplace in many quests are indeed exploits when held up to the "as the developers have intended" rule of thumb. To try to pretend otherwise is nothing more than a vein attempt to place yourself above others and justify your own transgressions.

- Dethe

[Justin1341]

You skipped the part where you didn't fully complete it by exploiting and bypassing the Asteroids room.

You may have increased your /quest completions, but it doesn't make it an achievement worth merit.

Reading Comprehension FTW! Our goal was to COMPLETE THE QUEST. We completed it. So we accomplished out goal making it an achievement per the definition.

[Tanka]

Dethe, I'd really love to point you here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=146613).

Or, if you're too lazy to read the link provided, it's KK's thread on what is and is not an exploit.

Here, let me even quote it for you.


The following activities are considered to be violations of the Terms of Service:

Using summoned items or creatures to trigger a game bug
Purposely using any method that causes monsters or NPCs to become completely unresponsive.
Bypassing a door, forcefield, barrier or other geometry which causes monsters or quest events on the other side to become unresponsive.
Purposely causing monsters to become stuck or unresponsive on geometry.
Using a game bug to remove any or all danger to yourself and/or party.
Using any method to repeatedly loot a chest without repeating the quest objectives/content/monster encounters associated with the chest.
Using any method to loot a chest or accept quest reward with any character who did not complete the related quest objective from start to finish.
Bypassing a quest timer or flagging mechanic which allows you to complete a quest or objective more often than allowed.
Any method of removing quest-only weapons, soul stones, or items from a quest instance and/or selling them on via the Marketplace or Auction House.
Communicating details on how to exploit, or indicating quests which may be exploited in public. (Including in the LFM panel. Vague comments on your play style are welcome in the Who Panel or your Character Profile.)

The following activities are NOT considered to be violations, but tactics ("cheesy" or not), that may or may not be "fixed" in the future.

Corralling a monster in a corner or other area, as long as the monster remains "conscious" and continues to attempt defense and/or escape.
Using the environment (not a ladder) to climb to another location that does not result in monsters or quest events becoming broken.
"Perching" on geometry to get a better ranged shot at a monster, as long as the monster remains responsive.
"The Hero Method" when it does not involve triggering a bug.
"Bouncing Agro"
Distracting responsive monsters so a team member can complete another part of the quest without incident.

Is blocking a doorway cheesey? Yes. Is it an exploit? No.

Is causing your client to hang cheesey? Yes. Is it an exploit? Yes.

[Justin1341]

Dethe, I'd really love to point you here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=146613).

Or, if you're too lazy to read the link provided, it's KK's thread on what is and is not an exploit.

Here, let me even quote it for you.


[/LIST]
Is blocking a doorway cheesey? Yes. Is it an exploit? No.

Is causing your client to hang cheesey? Yes. Is it an exploit? Yes.
I see nothing about any tactics people use in Abbott there...

[bobbryan2]

Dethe, I'd really love to point you here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=146613).

Or, if you're too lazy to read the link provided, it's KK's thread on what is and is not an exploit.

Here, let me even quote it for you.


[/LIST]
Is blocking a doorway cheesey? Yes. Is it an exploit? No.

Is causing your client to hang cheesey? Yes. Is it an exploit? Yes.

Is it an exploit? Maybe not.

Is it the way the developers intended the quest to be beaten? Not on your life.

[Tanka]

I see nothing about any tactics people use in Abbott there...

Using a game bug to remove any or all danger to yourself and/or party.
Carry on.

[Justin1341]

carry On.

Zomg Ac Is An Exploitz!!!!

[Tanka]

Zomg Ac Is An Exploitz!!!!
Nice edit. Here's what it said before:


It didn't remove all danger. Carry on.
I think you missed the part where it said "any" danger.

[moops]

By that definition, what everyone does to finish the first part of titan is an exploit. I sure hope that from now on you complete all sides/colors, and not rez/heal people through the tunnels.


Dethe, I'd really love to point you here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=146613).

Or, if you're too lazy to read the link provided, it's KK's thread on what is and is not an exploit.

Here, let me even quote it for you.


[/LIST]
Is blocking a doorway cheesey? Yes. Is it an exploit? No.

Is causing your client to hang cheesey? Yes. Is it an exploit? Yes.

[Justin1341]

Nice edit. Here's what it said before:


I think you missed the part where it said "any" danger.

I did miss it and edited when I realized that. At that point I also realized AC is an exploit!

[Tanka]

I did miss it and edited when I realized that. At that point I also realized AC is an exploit!
AC isn't a game bug.

Oh, and thanks for admitting you were exploiting.

[Quanefel]

lol, Tanka perhaps you had some big come to Jesus moment this week but by your own measure ("if you can't beat it as the developers have intended") you are both a hypocrite and a liar. Yep, I said it. Ya know, it's one thing to respectfully voice a disagreement or opinion but to climb up on some new found moral pulpit and expound on the sanctimonious integrity of gaming when you Sir are guilty of exploiting (by your own definition) is simply galling. I'm sure you've reconciled your own improprieties and rationalized the countless "exploits" that you yourself partake/have partaken in (many of which were already so eloquently outlined by Junts earlier in this thread) but the fact of the matter is that you are not quite the innocent you present yourself to be. Actually, none of the folks that are now finding it necessary to spout off with their feigned self-righteous indignation are.

Look, I'm not condoning exploits by any stretch but c'mon now, drop the act folks. The abuse of aggro management and exploitation of a less than stellar AI combined with the countless other workarounds and "creative" strategies that are now commonplace in many quests are indeed exploits when held up to the "as the developers have intended" rule of thumb. To try to pretend otherwise is nothing more than a vein attempt to place yourself above others and justify your own transgressions.

- Dethe


A new low.

It was bad enough people make a million and one excuses for exploiting, now if a person "might" have used cheesy methods in the past must never talk about exploiting as being bad. Its the same in real life in some ways. If you are an ex druggie or drinker and suggest others might want to avoid doing such things then we all are hypocrites and the actions of drugs/drinking can not be frowned upon.

If we can just blur the line more than nothing can be considered an exploit......

I for one am not buying into it.

[bobbryan2]

Nice edit. Here's what it said before:


I think you missed the part where it said "any" danger.

Using dispel on ghouls puts you in danger still.

But i guess that's an exploit too, even when the GMs said it was clever.

[Tanka]

Using dispel on ghouls puts you in danger still.

But i guess that's an exploit too, even when the GMs said it was clever.
Saying something is clever does not stop it from being an exploit. It just means it was something they had not forseen.

[Quanefel]

By that definition, what everyone does to finish the first part of titan is an exploit. I sure hope that from now on you complete all sides/colors, and not rez/heal people through the tunnels.

Uh huh, you keep telling yourself that.

[Justin1341]

AC isn't a game bug.

You are assuming that freezing your client is a game bug. All it is is lagging. I have actually seen people lag while running across goggles and somehow lag across a tile that is not there. It is the same thing. One is accidental and one is not.

[Tanka]

You are assuming that freezing your client is a game bug. All it is is lagging. I have actually seen people lag while running across goggles and somehow lag across a tile that is not there. It is the same thing. One is accidental and one is not.
Purposefully causing a client hang ("lag") is exploitation of a game bug. You're arguing semantics that are working against you, kiddo.

[Justin1341]

Purposefully causing a client hang ("lag") is exploitation of a game bug. You're arguing semantics that are working against you.

How do you know its a game bug? I am just curious if you have been told this by a Turbine employee or if your opinion is just obviously the right one? And if it was an exploit you probably shouldn't have brought it up in this thread. Also if it was wouldn't Turbine have removed it....?

[moops]

If they wanted certain colored stones to be unlimited, then why do they even bother with the check boxes for stones? I am sure the Devs never intended for 11 people to take a Green stone.


Uh huh, you keep telling yourself that.

[Kraldor]

Bleh. Forum drama. This is ******** and you all need to grow up. Big deal, they exploited and beat the abbot. Everyone knows it. You can call it cheese or any other dumb euphamism, it doesn't really matter. They can deny it, you can chastise them for it, but nothing of any importance will come out of this. The Devs aren't idiots. They're fully aware of the way people are running the raid. If they want to fix it, they'll fix it.
If you guys want to exploit, that's fantastic. Take the risk and whatnot, enjoy your loot. I couldn't care less. It's another thing to start brag posts (not that this was started as one) about it. In case it hasn't been revealed to you yet, it's usually good to do bannable actions in secret, and not publicly proclaiming them.

[Justin1341]

They can deny it, you can chastise them for it, but nothing of any importance will come out of this.

We never denied anything and also we never discussed what tactics we used publicly. It is the Neo Skullriders who are publicly discussing how to exploit the abbott....

[Tanka]

How do you know its a game bug? I am just curious if you have been told this by a Turbine employee or if your opinion is just obviously the right one? And if it was an exploit you probably shouldn't have brought it up in this thread. Also if it was wouldn't Turbine have removed it....?
I haven't said how to cause the exploit. Discussing that it exists is not banned. Discussing how is.

It's obviously an exploit because it does, in fact remove you from some or all danger.

[smatt]

Well I would loved them to have fixed it long ago..... Seems a fix is coming...... Perhaps then you all around you shall be rewarded with the grand feeling that the one and only Tanka and his props er congradulations..... So few will ever receive such honor through-out their lifetimes......I'm sure you'll just be thrilled to the core..... It'll be like getting that extra round of sex from the spouse :D OK, complete and total smart-arsed hat off.....:p

It's being done the way it CAN be done at this point.... Not like it was being done in the first 2 weeks it was out.. Nor is it like the Shroud was being doen by oh so many the first few weeks then a different way the nex month and then another way for the next 3. And the people who did beat it legit ON ELITE even, and then were forced into doing it in such lame ways simply for lack of a group that would even try to do it legit anymore.

Not the same....

I hope Eladrin's efforts on this which seem to be a rather large time sink payoff for the player base as whole!

In the end I will give my props, it's not easy to get the people together, nd to get this done!

[Justin1341]

It's obviously an exploit because it does, in fact remove you from some or all danger.

So does the uber AC/DPS ratio from the monk splash. Its obviously an exploit.

[Tanka]

So does the uber AC/DPS ratio from the monk splash. Its obviously an exploit.
Not an exploit, working as PnP intended. Overpowered != Exploit

[Kraldor]

We never denied anything

Sure, but you still insist on arguing semantics over whether or not the **** you pulled was an exploit or not. You know it's an exploit, get over yourself.

[soupertc]

wonder what a hotpoint on DDOcast might be next week?????? HMMMMMMM

Sometimes you tell us the news....sometimes you are the news. Funny stuff.

[xberto]

I (Gutter) had the opportunity to run the first elite pug completion, lead by Zoust. It was the most fun I had in this game, for some time. I spent over 2 hours with the group and I have no idea how long the leaders had spent learning the techniques. It was all on my shoulders at one point, as I was on the side with those invisible tiles. Zoust guided me through. It was as intense and white-knuckle experience as I've had in the game. It took exceptional leadership to get it done and 12 good team players. The whole thing was great fun. Thanks to all that participated in that pug. I really feel like I got my moneys worth this pay-cycle. I’m not bragging I’m just explaining my feelings about my Abbot experience. No regrets here. I guess I'm going to hell.

[Justin1341]

I (Gutter) had the opportunity to run the first elite pug completion, lead by Zoust. It was the most fun I had in this game, for some time. I spent over 2 hours with the group and I have no idea how long the leaders had spent learning the techniques. It was all on my shoulders at one point, as I was on the side with those invisible tiles. Zoust guided me through. It was as intense and white-knuckle experience as I've had in the game. It took exceptional leadership to get it done and 12 good team players. The whole thing was great fun. Thanks to all that participated in that pug. I really feel like I got my moneys worth this pay-cycle. I’m not bragging I’m just explaining my feelings about my Abbot experience. No regrets here. I guess I'm going to hell.

I have spent about 300 hours on the abbott.

[bobbryan2]

I haven't said how to cause the exploit. Discussing that it exists is not banned. Discussing how is.

It's obviously an exploit because it does, in fact remove you from some or all danger.

Actually no... Even discussing that certain exploits exist at all is a banning offense. This even includes exploits that don't exist anymore.

Although... the devs have never enforced these rules with regards to the Abbot except in extreme cases, because they know that no one would be running the raid otherwise.

[Tanka]

Actually no... Even discussing that certain exploits exist at all is a banning offense. This even includes exploits that don't exist anymore.

Although... the devs have never enforced these rules with regards to the Abbot except in extreme cases, because they know that no one would be running the raid otherwise.
From KK's thread:


Remember GENERAL discussion of exploits will no longer be taboo subject. However detailing the steps or other significant details of an exploit will continue to be off limits.

[bobbryan2]

Sure, but you still insist on arguing semantics over whether or not the **** you pulled was an exploit or not. You know it's an exploit, get over yourself.

Actually... there are some non-exploit ways to get through the asteroid puzzle. If they never said what they did, you don't know for sure what method they chose.

I seem to remember Eladrin thinking that the dispel/FTS/ghoul thing was 'clever.'

So... yeah.

[bobbryan2]

From KK's thread:

Uh huh.... and you don't think 'causing the client to hang' fits there?

[Tanka]

Uh huh.... and you don't think 'causing the client to hang' fits there?
Have I said how to?

[Kraldor]

Actually... there are some non-exploit ways to get through the asteroid puzzle. If they never said what they did, you don't know for sure what method they chose.

I seem to remember Eladrin thinking that the dispel/FTS/ghoul thing was 'clever.'

So... yeah.

Alrighty then, so I suppose Sergod was arguing about game freezing for the sake of conversation right?

It's cute that you want to give them the benefit of the doubt though.

[bobbryan2]

Have I said how to?

Knowing how to is only one step. I don't think KK's post said it was ok as long as you leave out at least one step.

[Baron]

Who cares if you question it. Last time I checked, you weren't the logger of all things achievements.

Why don't you just let them have their moment of triumph and stay out of it?




Who cares if you question it. Last time I checked, you weren't the logger of all things achievements.

Why don't you just let them have their moment of triumph and stay out of it?



You mean you have not figured out what is really going one here. Let me tell you.

There is a certain guild (most posting from that guild in this thread do not have thier guild listed for some reason in their posting :}) but's it not hard to figure them out. Read their old postings.

Members of this guild have gone way out of their way to get a certain person banned in the past.

That person is not popular with a lot of folks on this server so many are ok with it or it just goes by them.

Thats why the "Ban" word keeps getting bandied around hoping a DEV will do so or the person most of this is targeted at gets made and says something he will get banned for.

Heres a clue Tonka, I do not think he is going to fall for it tonight, so give it a rest.

I have heard members of that guild even have a new term employing that persons name in a negative manner. The guild leaders did tell members not to use it, right? Because it would be in violation of the Terms of Agreement, would it not? :eek:

I have learned over the years that the ones proclaiming how good and noble they are are often shouting it out for a reason.

I am not painting a whole guild here, just the ones who seem to go out of their way to kick someone whenever they can. I suspect I am not the only one that has seen the use of the term I am talking about on this server. I point out I have not filed a TOC violation on it like some in this forum are so eager to do whenever that other person is involved.

I am tired of it. Maybe he is not so nice at times but he runs his own groups and as far as I know has never used anyone elses names in a derogratory mannor as I KNOW has occured in another guild posting in this tread.

Let him be.

[Justin1341]

Alrighty then, so I suppose Sergod was arguing about game freezing for the sake of conversation right?

It's cute that you want to give them the benefit of the doubt though.

I could give a rats ass whether any tactics I use in the abbott are exploits. The raid is broken and require broken tactics to complete it. Honestly I am arguing over because I don't like being insulted and talked down to because of how I beat a broken quest that ya'll can't even beat and because of my (irrelevant) age.

[Junts]

Dethe, I'd really love to point you here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=146613).

Or, if you're too lazy to read the link provided, it's KK's thread on what is and is not an exploit.

Here, let me even quote it for you.


[/LIST]
Is blocking a doorway cheesey? Yes. Is it an exploit? No.

Is causing your client to hang cheesey? Yes. Is it an exploit? Yes.

How about short-manning twilight forge and moving onto the titan without cpmpleting the quest?

[Kraldor]

You mean you have not figured out what is really going one here. Let me tell you.

There is a certain guild (most posting from that guild in this thread do not have thier guild listed for some reason in their posting :}) but's it not hard to figure them out. Read their old postings.

Members of this guild have gone way out of their way to get a certain person banned in the past.

That person is not popular with a lot of folks on this server so many are ok with it or it just goes by them.

Thats why the "Ban" word keeps getting bandied around hoping a DEV will do so or the person most of this is targeted at gets made and says something he will get banned for.

Heres a clue Tonka, I do not think he is going to fall for it tonight, so give it a rest.

I have heard members of that guild even have a new term employing that persons name in a negative manner. The guild leaders did tell members not to use it, right? Because it would be in violation of the Terms of Agreement, would it not? :eek:

I have learned over the years that the ones proclaiming how good and noble they are are often shouting it out for a reason.

LOL. Nice conspiracy theory buddy. Not a member of said guild myself, but honestly you couldn't be further off from the truth.

[Cadaia]

If you guys want to exploit, that's fantastic. Take the risk and whatnot, enjoy your loot. I couldn't care less. It's another thing to start brag posts (not that this was started as one) about it. In case it hasn't been revealed to you yet, it's usually good to do bannable actions in secret, and not publicly proclaiming them.
THIS is everyone's issue. Play your game however the heck you want to. Brag about exploiting to claim an achievement? I just don't think that's too smart.

[Kraldor]

THIS is everyone's issue. Play your game however the heck you want to. Brag about exploiting to claim an achievement? I just don't think that's too smart.

So was that just a pink version of what I said or did you address that to me in some way? I can't really tell-

[Lebrac]

Just one little thing to say.


Thanks to all the people that are the same people that came out against neo when we refused to use the shroud bug for comeing out again because we refuse to use this bug. always fun to have you call us out on all the "exploiting" we have ever done. Good times!

[Justin1341]

You want to prove you're awesome? Beat it without exploits.

I mean, it won't change a lot of problems people have with you, but at least you won't be a dirty exploiter.

Not trying to prove ****. Just trying to get my loot/tomes.

[Tanka]

Not trying to prove ****. Just trying to get my loot/tomes.
By exploiting. Right. Gotcha.

[Kraldor]

Not trying to prove ****. Just trying to get my loot/tomes.

Wonderful! Then we can agree to disagree and you can continue to "beat" the abbot, but this time without making "achievement" threads.

[KatanAztar]

Wait, is this a video game that's being discussed in here?

[Filipinomaids]

don't mind about people said.

just relex urself,it's a game.

Gratz guys,very good job on AC beat.

like lishufeng said,in Chinese says,吃不到葡萄说葡萄酸

hope u guys can get good leet in next AC round

[Baron]

Wonderful! Then we can agree to disagree and you can continue to "beat" the abbot, but this time without making "achievement" threads.


You did note who started the tread, right? Someone that was not in the raid.

Last from me tonight.

1. Having several guild members target another person in the forums until he quits or responds with all getting points but his points being added up so he gets banned, you think thats a TOC violation?


2. Using another players name in a disgusting fashion, you think that qualifies? Think theres any evidence of that in the logs and that might be a TOC violation?

Let it be, he is not going to get banned by responding to the trolling going on here if he is smart. I am not speaking to everyone in this tread, the ones I am talking to know who they are.

What if some one, lets say a senior manager , goes thru all the old postings of certain members of the forums. Think there would be anything there for some to worry about?

We can find out if you want to, what say you? Shall we tone this conversation down now? Any Guild Leader listening?

[edaciousx]

As Towrn said, no NSR were there.

Oh, wait, you're a bit behind the news, aren't you?

I'll be high and mighty because if you can't beat it as the developers have intended, you haven't truly beaten it.

Get back to me when you have.

I recognize the fact that you are highly arrogant and mighty annoying. I had fun beating/passing/finishing the quest, while running the abbot. I don't get your issue. So what if other people don't run things the way you don't think they should run them?


You want to prove you're awesome? Beat it without exploits.

I mean, it won't change a lot of problems people have with you, but at least you won't be a dirty exploiter.

Obviously you have some kind of superiority complex syndrome and want to be recognized for your accomplishments. I am recognizing you, again, for them right now. You are an uber, elite DDO player. And, because you are elite, this alone gives you the right to bust everyones balls for whatever childish reason you see fit. You dirty ball basher.


By exploiting. Right. Gotcha.

I don't understand what your issue is, other people pay to play this game. The way other people decide to play the game has no effect on your gaming. I think you are just a cranky, angry fat computer gamer who has nothing better to do but flaunt your e***** and get in other people's faces.

I have a suggestion to you, why don't you just butt out and quit raining on other peoples glory. Why do you have to be such a cranky person? Seriously whats your freaken issue!?


You are just so incredibly annoying its amazing.

[Baltire]

I recognize the fact that you are highly arrogant and mighty annoying. I had fun beating/passing/finishing the quest, while running the abbot. I don't get your issue. So what if other people don't run things the way you don't think they should run them?



Obviously you have some kind of superiority complex syndrome and want to be recognized for your accomplishments. I am recognizing you, again, for them right now. You are an uber, elite DDO player. And, because you are elite, this alone gives you the right to bust everyones balls for whatever childish reason you see fit. You dirty ball basher.



I don't understand what your issue is, other people pay to play this game. The way other people decide to play the game has no effect on your gaming. I think you are just a cranky, angry fat computer gamer who has nothing better to do but flaunt your e***** and get in other people's faces.

I have a suggestion to you, why don't you just butt out and quit raining on other peoples glory. Why do you have to be such a cranky person? Seriously whats your freaken issue!?


You are just so incredibly annoying its amazing.


Try reading the past 170 post there bud, you will find multiple posts in there about how it can possibly affect other peoples gaming.

[Tanka]

Edacious, exploiting violates the CoC. Just because they pay doesn't mean they can break the rules.

[edaciousx]

Try reading the past 170 post there bud, you will find multiple posts in there about how it can possibly affect other peoples gaming.

hey bud lets be real.

10 abbot completions a week on sarlona server is not going to change anything.

Try using your head? I already read the past 170 posts there genius.

Look at Shroud? people were "exploiting" that. What did that change?? Two different exploits at two different times. So seriously, tell me. What did that change? I mean, other than Turbine fixing the raid Twice.

Exactly, bud.

[edaciousx]

Edacious, exploiting violates the CoC. Just because they pay doesn't mean they can break the rules.

What are you, a vigilante?

You got a problem with how people are completing the raid, bring it up with Turbine.

[Tanka]

What are you, a vigilante?
I think the only response I can actually offer to that query is: lol.

[xberto]

nvm

[BGP]

nvm

[Kraldor]

You did note who started the tread, right? Someone that was not in the raid.

One (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=167865) and Two (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168192)

[Baron]

One (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=167865) and Two (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168192)

You have the wrong group in your links above, the dates are almost 3 weeks ago. You did notice that right?

[Runyant]

3. Some are victims of effort justification (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14765576), where a difficult task is reported as more enjoyable than it was, because otherwise would mean admitting you've been wasting time.


And here I've been calling it Post Cognitive Dissonance all this time....
/sigh

[Kraldor]

One (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=167865) and Two (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168192)

You have the wrong group in your links above, the dates are almost 3 weeks ago. You did notice that right?

Guess who the leader of all three groups is. Yes that's right! It's Justin1341/500520/brshelton, all the same person! And all the same tactics too.

[Justin1341]

Guess who the leader of all three groups is. Yes that's right! It's Justin1341/500520/brshelton, all the same person! And all the same tactics too.

Actually I believe different tactics were used in goggle each time. But you wouldn't know since you weren't there.

[Souless]

Cheating isn't an achievement.

Tell that to the Steelers, who are going to the superbowl, quite possiblely because of effective cheating (punter falls on A$$) penalty insues...1st down for steelers...game over.....welcome to the superbowl.

The bytcher~

*Souless*Valice*Xbow*Spectyr*Tazzor*Vampir*Xindao*
and a couple of mules not worth mentioning

[shuzgeocities]

Hey kids, first forum post eva and I've been around for a while. So here's my belief if it's in the game, it is meant to be used. That and cake is tasty, to bad its a lie. :-(

S****d man, stop getting b****d. How can you setup A***t groups if your *anne*? <Edited to comply with DDO forum rules>

laters,
Caustic

[Filipinomaids]

really don't like some of ur guys' game style.

less complain and suspicion to others' active on the forums.

more practice and try in ur game playing.


At least,they beat the abbot,they can be proud of it.

u can disrespect them,they can disrespect u ,either.

Respect to each others is mutual.so is disrespect.


I do gratz them by their active,cause their success is built on many failed of Abbot run.

[Junts]

Have I said how to?

I don't play your server and while I disagree with you on this I bear you no illwill; however, simply explaining the result of an exploit could be significant assistance to someone trying to figure it out, so I would tread carefully.

With that said, I think its quite obvious that until the changes no one gives a **** whats done in the abbot.

The way you purport to judge as though you were an authority figure capable of deciding what is and is not an exploit(however logical or simple it seems to you) is what is offputting to people; deciding who is or is not cheating is not your responsibility as a player, and publically accusing people just makes you come off as a jerk. There have been allegations in this thread I think are ridiculous, and also ones of things I would personally disagree with (like twinking out the tile puzzle, which is beatable as-designed); I do not attempt to judge people based on it, however, because -that is not my job-, and it's also not yours. Your entire guild has behaved that way in this thread, with very little strong backing from others (a few, like Kraldor, have strongly agreed with you) - it seems like most of the uninvolved Sarlona posters from other guilds involved with none of the people in either that group or your guild think you guys are overreacting and don't really care; I find this is also the general attitude on my server, and have never seen anyone on the forums or in-game accused of being a cheater for having an accursed ascension completion, much less been told something to the extent of "I hope you're banned".

I think you guys are either taking the abbot too personally or this other player too personally; honestly, it seems equal parts of both.

You're entitled to do as you like, but I am glad to say that I play in one of the most upstanding and good-repute guilds of Ghallanda in terms of player behavior, and I have never seen a member of my guild or any other behave in such a destructive fashion to another player; even the Smatt/Katet feud does not go into this area.

If you guys don't like the player in question, I suggest squelching him on the forums and in the game, instead of getting into these big hissy-fests. You guys may consider yourselves very upstanding and well-intentioned powergamers on your server, but the general behavior of your members in this thread has certainly ensured that no future Sarlona toon of mine will be looking to join your guild. That may not mean anything to you, but I play in a Ghallandan guild with a family friendly bent who's main rule is 'don't be an *******', with quite a few other serious power gamers; from the other descriptions I'd seen of your guild, it sounded largely like something I'd be interested in.

Food for thought, at least; I have no idea who justin/sergod etc is, and have never run with him (though I've seen his name about, and he seems rather notorious), but I really doubt it's worth making this big a fuss over, even if he was the biggest cheater in the game; if he was, you'd report him and go on with your lives.

You guys would do better by everyone if you left the 'who is and is not a cheater/exploiter/deserves tobe banned' decisions to the game staff; honestly, I think they handle that pretty well.

You guys were also excessively mean to Filipinomaids when his guild started completing, even though I would think it is clear to all of you that there's a language barrier and he feels quite proud of his guildmates for what they did (and, i must say, justifiably so: you guys have continually denigrated the achievement of beating tile+ice+the rest of the raid as designed, on elite, when that is in fact something that requires more concerted effort and failure than anything else in the game. It amazes me that none of you has been capable of saying 'wow, I'm really impressed you guys did all the rest of the raid by the book, its -really- hard to do' to either this group or the fairytale group; even if you choose to compare it to something like an all-bard shroud that beats pt 4 but wipes on 5, simply accomplishing pt 4 would be a great, great achievement for the players in a 12-bard party, and I would certainly acknowledge them for doing so even if they did not complete the quest. That you all cannot do that is, well, sad.

[alchilito]

Read post in my sig gentlemen.

You may now return to your mindless random looting / shroud farming.

That is all.

[mediocresurgeon]

I think its quite obvious that until the changes no one gives a **** whats done in the abbot.

I would love to be able to agree with you here, but I fear the size of this thread indicate otherwise. Is it ethical to beat a mission using exploits when it is not possible to beat it otherwise? Is beating an impossible mission counterproductive to the boycott efforts? Questions like these really seem to get people up in arms.

I know the Abbott isn't technically impossible. However, it's impossible in the same way that anyone besides Shakespeare writing Hamlet on their own is impossible. Sure, if you sat trillions of monkeys in front of typewriters and had them hit random keys until the end of time, you would eventually have a copy of Hamlet. But we don't have trillions of monkeys playing DDO, and monkeys that play DDO won't live forever, either.




You guys may consider yourselves very upstanding and well-intentioned powergamers on your server, but the general behavior of your members in this thread has certainly ensured that no future Sarlona toon of mine will be looking to join your guild.

This is up to you, you are free to change your mind. I am in Tanka's guild, as is Dethe. While Tanka might be louder than his guildies, that does not mean all of Caffeine shares his opinions.

I was in the Abbott raid in question. I completed my puzzle (the ice room) without exploits. I feel accomplished for doing so. I do not know for sure that the other puzzles were solved using exploits. The people doing the Tile room switched off in-game voice chat and used out-of-game communication, most likely because whatever they used doesn't have a 0.5-1.0 second lag. The people is the asteroid room mostly just died (I'm not entirely sure if any of them survived). We used a Cake to create a resurrection shrine in the final fight. (I do not regard using a Cake as an exploit--the cake functioned as it was programmed). This was not our first run of the night, and we had tried several times before completing it successfully. I did not play the game the mod the Abbott was released, and this was my first real experience in this most difficult raid. I did my part and completed everything I could do within the quest, all without the alleged exploits. I cannot really stop any member of my team from exploiting. Would it be ethical to suddenly drop group in the middle of a raid? No--people who drop group in the middle of a raid tend to be blacklisted from future raids.

I accomplished something when I was part of the team that beat the Abbott on elite. Nothing said here or elsewhere will take that away from me.




Food for thought, at least; I have no idea who justin/sergod etc is, and have never run with him (though I've seen his name about, and he seems rather notorious), but I really doubt it's worth making this big a fuss over, even if he was the biggest cheater in the game; if he was, you'd report him and go on with your lives.

Some people have gotten annoyed with Sergod for social reasons. I have found that he is a knowledgeable, skilled player who is a great asset to have, especially on difficult missions.




you guys have continually denigrated the achievement of beating tile+ice+the rest of the raid as designed, on elite, when that is in fact something that requires more concerted effort and failure than anything else in the game.

/agree

[Xiloscient]

/Agree

[Baron]

You started off with You guys deserve to be banned because you posted your raid on the forums.

Then I replied:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron http://images.ddoforum.turbine.com/images/buttons/blue/viewpost.gif (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2015082#post2015082)
You did note who started the tread, right? Someone that was not in the raid.

You replied with : One (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=167865) and Two (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168192)

I replied that you did the one and two thing linking to two pictures from almost 3 weeks ago and that was not even of the group in question.

So now you reply with the below proving to all that this is about you and yours trying to get a particular person banned....



Guess who the leader of all three groups is. Yes that's right! It's ********************, all the same person! And all the same tactics too.


And what you just did in the quote above is a TOC violation.

Good thing I am not you or I would have reported you.... Give it a break.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

It amazes me that none of you has been capable of saying 'wow, I'm really impressed you guys did all the rest of the raid by the book, its -really- hard to do' to either this group or the fairytale group;

You mean like:


I really hate putting a dampener on these achievements, because I do admit that it requires a lot of practice to manage to beat the Abbot, and I do wish to congratulate everyone involved..

and this:



Agree - props to the party (as said in my original post, and my follow up) that they managed these parts of the raid. It's an impressive achievement and takes a lot of coordination and practice.

Please don't tar everyone who posts in this thread with the same brush. The only points I've been consistently making in this thread are that: 1. People should not be posting these 'achievements' on the DDO forums if they're using exploits to get them and 2. Exploiting the raid is against the TOC and damages the game as a whole. See my previous posts for more details on both of these points.

Garth

[Tanka]

This is up to you, you are free to change your mind. I am in Tanka's guild, as is Dethe. While Tanka might be louder than his guildies, that does not mean all of Caffeine shares his opinions.
Might want to check the Caffeine forums, Hydrolics. I moved to NSR last week.

[Thelmallen]

For the love of all that is holy when are they going to lock this thread down?! We've got smart people saying stupid things, stupid people saying stupid things, elitist pr**** saying elitist things and a coupla smart people saying smart things (Garth, podcast boy) and none of it matters, nothing will ever be resolved and all people will retain their original opinions. It's a diminishing return. Euthanize it, please, Tolero.

[Baltire]

For the love of all that is holy when are they going to lock this thread down?! We've got smart people saying stupid things, stupid people saying stupid things, elitist pr**** saying elitist things and a coupla smart people saying smart things (Garth, podcast boy) and none of it matters, nothing will ever be resolved and all people will retain their original opinions. It's a diminishing return. Euthanize it, please, Tolero.

Thanks for calling me smart and saying the things that I've said were smart... :)

That means so much to me, you have no idea....

As for closing the thread, why, it is bringing so much enjoyment to some that are stuck at work with nothing to do but read forums...Give these guys the satisfaction of watching the sharks feed. Anyone who is arguing in this thread was not really ever going to group with the people that they are arguing with, so its not as if we were about to bridge some in game gap.

Let this thread go and grow, for bored office workers everywhere....

This has been a public service announcement, brought to you by smart guy (me).

:)

[BGP]

Thanks for calling me smart and saying the things that I've said were smart... :)

That means so much to me, you have no idea....

As for closing the thread, why, it is bringing so much enjoyment to some that are stuck at work with nothing to do but read forums...Give these guys the satisfaction of watching the sharks feed. Anyone who is arguing in this thread was not really ever going to group with the people that they are arguing with, so its not as if we were about to bridge some in game gap.

Let this thread go and grow, for bored office workers everywhere....

This has been a public service announcement, brought to you by smart guy (me).

:)


Towrn

You may want to check out your posts..... I don't think he was calling you smart. :)

[rezo]

Congraz on a job well done. :cool:

[Baltire]

Towrn

You may want to check out your posts..... I don't think he was calling you smart. :)

You sir are a degenerate and fool, of course I am the smart guy he was referring to.

[gfunk]

Happy 200th post Sarlona! You have now broken the record for the longest Abbot Drama thread in the forums. Accept this one of a kind commemorative post to mark the occassion!

v(^_^)v

**edit darn it all... 4 minutes too slow

[BGP]

You sir are a degenerate and fool, of course I am the smart guy he was referring to.

Been drinking in the morning again? :)

[artvan_delet]

Dethe, I'd really love to point you here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=146613).

Or, if you're too lazy to read the link provided, it's KK's thread on what is and is not an exploit.

Here, let me even quote it for you.


[/LIST]
Is blocking a doorway cheesey? Yes. Is it an exploit? No.

Is causing your client to hang cheesey? Yes. Is it an exploit? Yes.

I agree that players were exploiting Abbot. For those who want to call those players out politely, ok. One time is enough. For those who jump on a high horse, let me ask if you if you run sorjek inappropriately. As posted by Tanka earlier in this thread and quoting the devs: Bypassing a quest timer or flagging mechanic which allows you to complete a quest or objective more often than allowed (is an exploit). Ask yourself if you looted the living daylights out of the subterranian chest for icy raiments because you knew that they would be fixing the chest soon. (We all knew the chest shouldn't be popping out icy raiments 10x more than normal, that's why people ran it so much before it was fixed.) To those throwing stones, was that true to spirit of DDO? LIsten, I'm just asking people to look at their conduct (the log in their eye) before commenting on others (the speck in theirs).


I was glad to see people having fun playing a quest/teaching others/working together. This is what DDO is about. This thread is not what DDO is about, and I think they should shut it down.

[Mical]

okay, all those that keep yelling at us "You exploited, you exploited, you exploited", believe me that everyone has played a part of the game that wasn't intended to be played that way.

1. Firewall, Blade or other AoE through doors
2. Safe spot on Dragon raid
3. Pulling multiple crystals, although there aren't enough on Titan raid
4. Lightning on first days of Shroud part 2
5. Freezing Clients, anywhere
6. Going through lightning traps on VON 5 on elite, and they don't hurt you

i know people that have been playing from the beginning have used at least one of these tactics
but if you have NEVER EVER used any of these tactics they you are a little bit higher on the Morality pole than we are...

but please stop pointing extreme blame to people that do Abott, i know its bull

and yes i was in that group, but me personally did not freeze my client, at any point

people do the abott to have fun, to actually have a challenge to the game instead of running the same easy loot runs that we have. We just skip a minor part to see if we can do the rest.

We accomplished beating the parts that we could do... that is all

Doing the abott was the most fun i have ever had in this game and i hope with mod 9 coming that everyone will be playing because necro and tomb quests and abott are fun, in my point

[Katrina]

Towrn

You may want to check out your posts..... I don't think he was calling you smart. :)

Nobody ever does ;)

[Thelmallen]

As for closing the thread, why, it is bringing so much enjoyment to some that are stuck at work with nothing to do but read forums...Give these guys the satisfaction of watching the sharks feed. Anyone who is arguing in this thread was not really ever going to group with the people that they are arguing with, so its not as if we were about to bridge some in game gap.:)

That is a very good point as it is what I'm doing between appointments. So I guess flame on!

But in all seriousness isn't it just a difference of opinion? I differ in opinions with lots of people but that doesn't mean I won't group with them. I'm sure y'all grouped with peeps who've ticked you off in this thread many many times in the past and have a lot of fun so there's no reason that can't continue.

[mediocresurgeon]

Might want to check the Caffeine forums, Hydrolics. I moved to NSR last week.

Really? Wow. Good luck with your new guild--I enjoyed having you in Caffeine.

[moops]

i Agree That Players Were Exploiting Abbot. For Those Who Want To Call Those Players Out Politely, Ok. One Time Is Enough. For Those Who Jump On A High Horse, Let Me Ask If You If You Run Sorjek Inappropriately. As Posted By Tanka Earlier In This Thread And Quoting The Devs: Bypassing A Quest Timer Or Flagging Mechanic Which Allows You To Complete A Quest Or Objective More Often Than Allowed (is An Exploit). Ask Yourself If You Looted The Living Daylights Out Of The Subterranian Chest For Icy Raiments Because You Knew That They Would Be Fixing The Chest Soon. (we All Knew The Chest Shouldn't Be Popping Out Icy Raiments 10x More Than Normal, That's Why People Ran It So Much Before It Was Fixed.) To Those Throwing Stones, Was That True To Spirit Of Ddo? Listen, I'm Just Asking People To Look At Their Conduct (the Log In Their Eye) Before Commenting On Others (the Speck In Theirs).


I Was Glad To See People Having Fun Playing A Quest/teaching Others/working Together. This Is What Ddo Is About. This Thread Is Not What Ddo Is About, And I Think They Should Shut It Down.

Qft

[gfunk]

2. Safe spot on Dragon raid
6. Going through lightning traps on VON 5 on elite, and they don't hurt you


I have no comments that pertain to how people run the Abbot because I don't really care. I only care how I run it (I run it the way where I fail all the time).

That said, I dont think that these two are really expoits:

The "Safe spot" in the Von 6 is there because it is a spot out of range of Velah's fire-breath attack but where she can still see you. She only summons minions when you are out of visual range (i.e. its not a glitch in the programming, its how she is supposed to function)

Even though the failure of elite lightning traps is a glitch (that I thought they fixed), you can still walk through the traps on any level if you time it right. There is no way to see if you have failed to time it right on elite, but thats certainly not the players fault. And how would you do things differently? Cast lightning pro, and then dispell it on the other end? Then take a swim in the lava to chalk up the appropriate amount of damage that you should have taken? Or perhaps just chug the amount of cure serious pots that would have countered the damage you should have taken? It's not as if you wouldn't go through the traps if they caused you damage... you have to go through them regardless. It's all nonsense really.

[Baltire]

That is a very good point as it is what I'm doing between appointments. So I guess flame on!

But in all seriousness isn't it just a difference of opinion? I differ in opinions with lots of people but that doesn't mean I won't group with them. I'm sure y'all grouped with peeps who've ticked you off in this thread many many times in the past and have a lot of fun so there's no reason that can't continue.

Unfortunately no, with some of the people in this thread it is much more than just difference of opinion. It is much more than that, some of you play this game in ways that make it not fun for me, so instead of grouping with those people and complaining, I stay away.

Fortunately, I get to argue with those people here in threads that will change absolutely no ones minds and get my fill of flame wars.....

Long live the abbot debacle.........

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Yup, a lot of hypocrisy in this thread, I don't think any of us (including me) are sleeping on whiter than white sheets here.

Nevertheless, performing an exploit and then publicly labeling (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=167865) it (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168192) as an achievement is what I believe is irking people the most.

...as Towrn said - at least this thread is giving me something to do while I'm waiting on compiles :)

Garth

[Kraldor]

Yup, a lot of hypocrisy in this thread, I don't think any of us (including me) are sleeping on whiter than white sheets here.

Nevertheless, performing an exploit and then publicly labeling (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=167865) it (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168192) as an achievement is what I believe is irking people the most.

...as Towrn said - at least this thread is giving me something to do while I'm waiting on compiles :)

Garth

Spot on, Garth.

[Baltire]

Glad to be of service garth, I accept tips of plat(not purchased from a plat farmer), w/p (maybe we can bring some w/p debate into this too :) ), larges(post patch) and tome pages(post patch of course, to keep with the high and mighty theme)

At this point, any serious posts in this thread are almost funnier than the ones that are being posted for levity, so keep them coming, Id love to see 300 posts today.

:)

[moops]

Really? Wow. Good luck with your new guild--I enjoyed having you in Caffeine.

Yes, and thank goodness he left before he became the Thomas Wolsey of Sarlona.

[Tanka]

I'm not fine with people playing "how they want" in that they're breaking the ToS and CoC. If they're fine with their account being banned permanently, fine, that's their risk. It's the risk anyone takes when merely chatting amongst friends and someone gets offended by a harmless joke.

All these claims of "I did it because I needed the raid loot" are hilarious. There are thousands of players who get by just fine without the Noxious Embers or Litany of the Dead. There are even some who don't use Greensteel and still manage to play just fine.

It's not the gear or character, it's the player. Always will be. Those who think they need to make themselves uber with 6 +3 tomes, a page full of w/p rapiers and multiple T3 dual-shard greensteels across every character are kidding themselves. You don't need those. Do they help? Maybe. But overall, not by a lot.

Once the Devs fix the raid and make it beatable on a consistent basis without the use of exploits will I start congratulating people for their hard work and effort.

Until then, I don't care how many hours people have practiced puzzles. They cheated at one and that destroys the experience entirely.

[Tanka]

Yes, and thank goodness he left before he became the Thomas Wolsey of Sarlona.
Oh, please Hex. Really. Let me know what you really feel.

[Katrina]

I don't think any of us (including me) are sleeping on whiter than white sheets here.
Garth

Did anyone else see this as an admission that Garth wets the bed?

[Baltire]

Did anyone else see this as an admission that Garth wets the bed?

I do now!!!!!!!!

[bobbryan2]

Until then, I don't care how many hours people have practiced puzzles. They cheated at one and that destroys the experience entirely.

No it doesn't.

As stated... dispelling ghouls and FTS isn't cheating. But I'm SURE that you went and congratulated anyone that used that tactic. Right?

[Baltire]

No it doesn't.

As stated... dispelling ghouls and FTS isn't cheating. But I'm SURE that you went and congratulated anyone that used that tactic. Right?

You may be right, that very well may not be cheating, and I do applaud the ingenuity to come up with that one.

But, without criticizing or calling anyone out, may I ask a question that someone could seriously answer for me???

If this EXACT quest was a PnP quest, and you were the dm, if there were asteroids being hurled at a pillar that one of your adventurers were standing on, asteroids that are strong enough to knock them off, would you allow a summoned creature to not be knocked off by the same asteroid???

Now, for those that would say yes I would allow it merely to justify doing it, you dont necessarily respond to this question, but for those of you that could actually have a legitimate reasoning to say yes, I would like to hear it.

[Deathe]

Tanka, kindly shut up already. My God man, ya don't think you've made your point the first 1000 times you said the same exact bs? Really man, I don't know what happened but you've turned into a redundant driveling tard.

- Dethe

[moops]

You may be right, that very well may not be cheating, and I do applaud the ingenuity to come up with that one.

But, without criticizing or calling anyone out, may I ask a question that someone could seriously answer for me???

If this EXACT quest was a PnP quest, and you were the dm, if there were asteroids being hurled at a pillar that one of your adventurers were standing on, asteroids that are strong enough to knock them off, would you allow a summoned creature to not be knocked off by the same asteroid???

Now, for those that would say yes I would allow it merely to justify doing it, you dont necessarily respond to this question, but for those of you that could actually have a legitimate reasoning to say yes, I would like to hear it.

Perhaps the stone melds with the stone floors. . .I know that when I cast comet fall on random moving giants in Sorjek, Prey, or Gianthold Tor, it does not knock down any Giants that were Flesh to Stoned by the caster.

[Baron]

Yup, a lot of hypocrisy in this thread, I don't think any of us (including me) are sleeping on whiter than white sheets here.

Nevertheless, performing an exploit and then publicly labeling (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=167865) it (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168192) as an achievement is what I believe is irking people the most.

...as Towrn said - at least this thread is giving me something to do while I'm waiting on compiles :)

Garth

OK that is twice you have linked to some other party on some other day as if it was this raid we are discussing. Do you not think we can read the dates and names in the links you keep pointing out. Why is that you keep linking to the wrong group and time? I also wondor at the ones agreeing with you, did none of you bother checking the link or did you just take his word for it. He was corrected on the wrong links earlier and decide to post again with the wrong link. Wondor why?

[bobbryan2]

You may be right, that very well may not be cheating, and I do applaud the ingenuity to come up with that one.

But, without criticizing or calling anyone out, may I ask a question that someone could seriously answer for me???

If this EXACT quest was a PnP quest, and you were the dm, if there were asteroids being hurled at a pillar that one of your adventurers were standing on, asteroids that are strong enough to knock them off, would you allow a summoned creature to not be knocked off by the same asteroid???

Now, for those that would say yes I would allow it merely to justify doing it, you dont necessarily respond to this question, but for those of you that could actually have a legitimate reasoning to say yes, I would like to hear it.

Actually... DMs in PnP better get used to their party coming up with creative solutions that they hadn't planned on, because it's going to happen in every hard situation.

DMs have to be flexible because things don't go according to the script.

That being said.. the entire 'what if' is stupid because there's no way we'd be up on a platform throwing rocks at incoming asteroids in a PnP game.

[Lifespawn]

OK that is twice you have linked to some other party on some other day as if it was this raid we are discussing. Do you not think we can read the dates and names in the links you keep pointing out. Why is that you keep linking to the wrong group and time?

cmon man think the tactics changed? he was merely pointing out that exploiting and then posting it as an achievement has been done.

It's the same person in those groups that they are talking about.

It's like saying ok forget about the other 5 bank robberies lets just talk about this one.

[Baron]

Spot on, Garth.

To a link not involving the group or raid in question, right............

[bobbryan2]

cmon man think the tactics changed? he was merely pointing out that exploiting and then posting it as an achievement has been done.

It's the same person in those groups that they are talking about.

It's like saying ok forget about the other 5 bank robberies lets just talk about this one.

You know for a fact all of them were exploiting? Every last one of those groups detailed the tactics they used?

Please... This argument basically boils down to "I can't beat the abbot without cheating, so no one else can either"

[Baltire]

Actually... DMs in PnP better get used to their party coming up with creative solutions that they hadn't planned on, because it's going to happen in every hard situation.

DMs have to be flexible because things don't go according to the script.

That being said.. the entire 'what if' is stupid because there's no way we'd be up on a platform throwing rocks at incoming asteroids in a PnP game.

I didnt ask you for an assessment of my scenario, but thanks for playing, here is your consolation prize.....another post from me.....

[bobbryan2]

I didnt ask you for an assessment of my scenario, but thanks for playing, here is your consolation prize.....another post from me.....

I don't think you have to 'ask' for an assessment to a 'what if' scenario if someone thinks it's a dumb question.

For everytime you're going to ask me,

"If you were the DM, would you allow FTS to block an incoming asteroid knockdown effect?"

I'm going to ask you

"If I were the DM, why the hell would I be playing a 1980's arcade game in a pnp session?"

But fine... I'll answer the question legitimately.

Knowing that the asteroids don't cause HP damage, only a knockback effect... then I would CERTAINLY allow a person to barricade himself in a ring of statues to avoid that effect. I would probably give bonus XP for the cleverness.

[Lifespawn]

You know for a fact all of them were exploiting? Every last one of those groups detailed the tactics they used?

Please... This argument basically boils down to "I can't beat the abbot without cheating, so no one else can either"

actually my guild did beat the abbot along with soulless we were the first EVER on the american servers and we used the flesh to stone method to beat asteroids.

What i'm saying is that the poster in question was the leader of those and earlier in this thread he said using the Hang thing.

I could care less if people exploit it i care if they post it like a badge of honor.

I know first hand how much practice it takes and how had it is so i have every right to voice my thoughts and you can take them as fact because i have put over 300 hours of time learning the puzzles.

[Baltire]

OK that is twice you have linked to some other party on some other day as if it was this raid we are discussing. Do you not think we can read the dates and names in the links you keep pointing out. Why is that you keep linking to the wrong group and time? I also wondor at the ones agreeing with you, did none of you bother checking the link or did you just take his word for it. He was corrected on the wrong links earlier and decide to post again with the wrong link. Wondor why?

Ok, if you dont like screenshots that garth reposted, I will post the original one here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0).

[Baron]

cmon man think the tactics changed? he was merely pointing out that exploiting and then posting it as an achievement has been done.

It's the same person in those groups that they are talking about.

It's like saying ok forget about the other 5 bank robberies lets just talk about this one.

So this is about getting a particlar person, glad to see someone admiting it. And when he linked the first and as far as I can tell the second time he posted it the raid and group in question. Did not see anything sayiing so elsewhere.

So if I find a picture of someone doing somethng in the new raid that is bogus that I find in the forums and link it to discussion of some guild without mentioning that it is not them in the picture then that is ok?

Or is it ok if you only do it to certain people?

I see a problem there.

[Lifespawn]

So this is about getting a particlar person, glad to see someone admiting it. And when he linked the first and as far as I can tell the second time he posted it the raid and group in question. Did not see anything sayiing so elsewhere.

So if I find a picture of someone doing somethng in the new raid that is bogus that I find in the forums and link it to discussion of some guild without mentioning that it is not them in the picture then that is ok?

Or is it ok if you only do it to certain people?

I see a problem there.

what part of it's the same person in those pics do you not get. Different forum name same person.

I personally don't have a problem with him either he knows his stuff and is a good player he just talks too much and is very abrasive to people which has gotten him his bad rep.

1 more time because you apparently aren't getting it it's the same person in those links as a poster in this discussion that stated the hang method.

[Junts]

College tuition - $9500/semester
Blackberry curve - $50 and $85/month
Reading this thread in class - priceless

[Katrina]

Perhaps the stone melds with the stone floors. . .I know that when I cast comet fall on random moving giants in Sorjek, Prey, or Gianthold Tor, it does not knock down any Giants that were Flesh to Stoned by the caster.

Not a bad thought Hex, however, from my understanding of the spell it doesn't quite merge them into stone, it just turns them into stone. I know in my campaigns, cometfall would be taking off limbs of stoned giants if not smashing them completely to bits.

In response to Towrn though, I can't think of a single reason why a rapid moving large stone object would knock a pc off and not an npc, except for a flaw in the programing.

[Baron]

Ok, if you dont like screenshots that garth reposted, I will post the original one here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0).


And a fine testament to your truthfulness it is.

Glad you are happy about it. I would not be. I tend to think a mans word is worth something. You guys should form a guild.

[Baltire]

College tuition - $9500/semester
Blackberry curve - $50 and $85/month
Reading this thread in class - priceless

Again, doing all I can to help those of us that dont have the day off today....

Glad I could help Junts...

:D

[bobbryan2]

Not a bad thought Hex, however, from my understanding of the spell it doesn't quite merge them into stone, it just turns them into stone. I know in my campaigns, cometfall would be taking off limbs of stoned giants if not smashing them completely to bits.

In response to Towrn though, I can't think of a single reason why a rapid moving large stone object would knock a pc off and not an npc, except for a flaw in the programing.

If it was taking off limbs of stoned giants, it'd be doing HP damage though.

It's under assumptions that the asteroids don't actually do damage... they only knock you back.

[moops]

Not a bad thought Hex, however, from my understanding of the spell it doesn't quite merge them into stone, it just turns them into stone. I know in my campaigns, cometfall would be taking off limbs of stoned giants if not smashing them completely to bits.

In response to Towrn though, I can't think of a single reason why a rapid moving large stone object would knock a pc off and not an npc, except for a flaw in the programing.

I can't find the spell in my compendums , only the short one sentence in the DDO wiki online.

But, my BF is a DM and I know he takes hours to plan certain fights, and many times the groups come up with clever ways to take down bosses. It seems that a lot of the spells have grey areas as well, and the group and DM discuss this, and usually come up with a compromise.

[Baltire]

And a fine testament to your truthfulness it is.

Glad you are happy about it. I would not be. I tend to think a mans word is worth something. You guys should form a guild.

If you can seriously think that because I posted that that Im not a man of my word, you have some serious growing up to do.

You might want to stop playing games and talk to someone about your deep seeded problems, as I have been posting for the entirety of the morning to make people laugh. I may not have made you laugh with that one, but I know for a fact that about 10 others HAVE.

I happen to think that the amount of joy someone brings to someone else is worth something. I have accomplished what I sought out to do with that post.

[Baltire]

I can't find the spell in my compendums , only the short one sentence in the DDO wiki online.

But, my BF is a DM and I know he takes hours to plan certain fights, and many times the group come up with clever ways to take down bosses. It seems that a lot of the spells have grey areas as well, and the group and DM discuss this, and usually come up with a compromise.

Now I dont exactly agree that many DMs would see it working the way it does here, but I do thank you for being one of the only people so far to try to answer that question seriously.

[Katrina]

I can't find the spell in my compendums , only the short one sentence in the DDO wiki online.

But, my BF is a DM and I know he takes hours to plan certain fights, and many times the group come up with clever ways to take down bosses. It seems that a lot of the spells have grey areas as well, and the group and DM discuss this, and usually come up with a compromise.

Your 100% right onthat. If I had a buck for every time my players shocked me with an out of the blue idea I wouldn't be here behind a computer screen!

[bobbryan2]

Now I dont exactly agree that many DMs would see it working the way it does here, but I do thank you for being one of the only people so far to try to answer that question seriously.

I answered your question seriously.

[moops]

Now I dont exactly agree that many DMs would see it working the way it does here, but I do thank you for being one of the only people so far to try to answer that question seriously.

So, then, Comet Fall and FTS are not implemented properly in DOO? Or are they not Programmed properly?

If turbine didn't fix the use of ghouls and mummies, and even called it clever, then have they not made the call as a DM?

And, and aside, I remember one of my old guilds summoning tons of ghouls and mummies trying to beat the Abbot, way back in the day.

[Cadaia]

I answered your question seriously.

No.. you said:

Actually... DMs in PnP better get used to their party coming up with creative solutions that they hadn't planned on, because it's going to happen in every hard situation.

DMs have to be flexible because things don't go according to the script.

That being said.. the entire 'what if' is stupid because there's no way we'd be up on a platform throwing rocks at incoming asteroids in a PnP game.

To which I say, why not? Creativity is essential in a DM and if you can't imagine that scenario, then you probably shouldn't be DMing. One of my favorite campaigns, we went through this portal that opened up on a tavern table in front of us in Faerun only to wind up in the modern world.

[bobbryan2]

No.. you said:


To which I say, why not? Creativity is essential in a DM and if you can't imagine that scenario, then you probably shouldn't be DMing. One of my favorite campaigns, we went through this portal that opened up on a tavern table in front of us in Faerun only to wind up in the modern world.

I said quite a few things, not just that, believe it or not. But please.. tell me how you would encorporate twitch hand-eye coordination and playing an arcade game in a PnP setup?

Break time to turn on the old Asteroids machine you bought for $200 dollars, and if you can get a high score, the party survives?

[moops]

No.. you said:


To which I say, why not? Creativity is essential in a DM and if you can't imagine that scenario, then you probably shouldn't be DMing. One of my favorite campaigns, we went through this portal that opened up on a tavern table in front of us in Faerun only to wind up in the modern world.

You have someone in your sister guild, who is a DM, commenting that his players are always shocking him. . .So, under your ideal world, he should not be DMing because he is not creative enough?

[Baltire]

So, then, Comet Fall and FTS are not implemented properly in DOO? Or are they not Programmed properly?

If turbine didn't fix the use of ghouls and mummies, and even called it clever, then have they not made the call as a DM?

And, and aside, I remember one of my old guilds summoning tons of ghouls and mummies trying to beat the Abbot, way back in the day.

To state what I meant more clearly, I dont see many DMs agreeing that the asteroids not knocking stoned creatures off the platform would be proper.

As for your said old guild summoning ghouls and mummies way back in the day, you are 100% correct, on the main platform where the Abbot is, when we thought that there might be a way to do enough DPS to the abbot to beat the raid without doing puzzles. That is the only part of that statement you left out.

[bobbryan2]

To state what I meant more clearly, I dont see many DMs agreeing that the asteroids not knocking stoned creatures off the platform would be proper.

As for your said old guild summoning ghouls and mummies way back in the day, you are 100% correct, on the main platform where the Abbot is, when we thought that there might be a way to do enough DPS to the abbot to beat the raid without doing puzzles. That is the only part of that statement you left out.

If you're going to ask the question about this raid, you have to accept all the preconditions that the game has.

1) Asteroids don't damage anything
2) Asteroids don't affect anything other than the players (who knows why, maybe they're enhcanted that way)


So, under those two assumptions. Would you say the party can't do it if you were the DM?

[Cadaia]

You have someone in your sister guild, who is a DM, commenting that his players are always shocking him. . .So, under your ideal world, he should not be DMing because he is not creative enough?

Not at all. Players should be able to shock a DM with ingenuity and creativity in their attempted solutions.

[moops]

To state what I meant more clearly, I dont see many DMs agreeing that the asteroids not knocking stoned creatures off the platform would be proper.

As for your said old guild summoning ghouls and mummies way back in the day, you are 100% correct, on the main platform where the Abbot is, when we thought that there might be a way to do enough DPS to the abbot to beat the raid without doing puzzles. That is the only part of that statement you left out.

What makes it an exploit do it in one part of the raid? And not another part of the raid?

And I do recall someone summoning on the platform at least once. . .guess it didnt work back then or they didnt do it right.

Edited to add: I was on the platform when it happened.