SP v Empower - How Much Are Spells Resisted

[ivarthevic]

I just reached level 12, and need to make a feat selection. It looks like the choice is between Empower and Spell Penetration. Edit: I added Maximize, since it is useful for healing, and I tend to use damage spells only in an emergency. Although my experience so far has been either the group is very good and all I am doing is healing (No emergency). Or the group is not very good and there are no spell points left after healing for damage spells (Emergency). Also, I am not that great at the game mechanics so that I can play healer/battle cleric efficiently. So far, I have the typical healing cleric feats: Mental Toughness, Improved Mental Toughness, Extend, Empower Healing, and Quicken.

Empower wont be much good if spells are resisted. My cleric at level 12, with Wisdom +5 item, has a Wisdom of 30. I used all 3 cleric wisdom enhancements, the human wisdom enhancement, and a wisdom +1 tome equivalent to get there. So far, I have not taken the Spell Penetration enhancements. Will his spells be resisted a lot?

Are there any options for feats other than SP and Empower that you would recommend I consider?

[BLAKROC]

it depends on if you are going to do a lot of desctructing and banishing then spell pen will help.
I generally run with Maximise instead of empower as it's double damage and get spell pen off enhancements. Maxed blade barriers are nice damage.

[Angelus_dead]

Empower wont be much good if spells are resisted. My cleric at level 12, with Wisdom +5 item, has a Wisdom of 30. I used all 3 wisdom enhancement, and a wisdom +1 tome equivalent to get there. So far, I have not taken the Spell Penetration enhancements. Will his spells be resisted a lot?

Are there any options for feats other than SP and Empower that you would recommend I consider?
First off, the Maximize feat is almost always better than Empower. You should prefer to get Maximize first, and maybe later get Empower if you want even more damage.

Secondly, you are confusing the two ways a monster can resist your spells.
There is saving throws, which everybody has and which are filed into fort/will/ref. To beat those you use high wisdom, Heighten, or spell focus feats/items. You can also debuff someone's saving throws in many ways, like the Bestow Curse spell. The Spell Penetration feat does nothing for this.

Second is Spell Resistance, which is a number that applies to any kind of non-damaging spell. Not all monsters have Spell Resistance. Most don't, so chances are you don't need it now, and might never really need it. To beat SR, your wisdom doesn't matter. That's based on your cleric level, spell penetration feats, and spell penetration items.

So, the overall answer is: learn the Maximize feat at this time.

[Noctus]

There are 2 ways in which a spell can be "resisted".

1. the monster makes it´s save against your spell. You can make this more difficult for the monster for example through raising your WIS, or through taking Spell Fokus feats.

2. the monster has Spell Resistance (SR) and you failed to beat that number. Calculated to your roll are only your caster level (how many levels you have in the class you are casting the spell from) +Spell penetration enhancements + items + Spell Penetration feats.
how highyour WIS is has no effect on how good you can beat SR.

[Nyvn]

If you plan on casting insta kill spells alot in high level content SP and greater SP re definitely worth it. I went from not bothering to cast without them to landing almost every time I cast.

[Junts]

The maximize feat is wonderful for a cleric; low level clerics have very poor damage spells per sp spent on them, and healing and buffing are much more effective.

However, you just got blade barrier, which when combined with maximize will do over 120 damage/pass at your level, up to roughly 210 damage/pass when you are level 16. Blade barrier damages enemies every time they pass through the blades, and once if they are within the area when initially cast. To use it right, you cast it, then run in circles back and forth through your bb so they pass through the outside blades; every time they go in or out they will take more damage. Unlike firewall, they do not take damage from sitting inside it or on the edge; they have to pass in or out. Until you can do this, cleric spell damage is not worth your attention. However, I highly advise the feat if you intend to run any quests short-man or do any kind of soloing- it is the most damage for sp spent you can get outside of the firewall spell, and if you use it on a lot of mobs, especially teleporting mobs (every time they teleport inside, they take the damage again), it is potentially better than firewall (also, nothing is immune).

Spell penetration feats are also wonderful. At your level, you are unlikely to have encountered many monsters with spell resistance, and are less likely to have cast spells at them (drow, rakshasa and flesh renders are about the only monsters you may have fought so far that possess it; more will as you increase in level and run higher level quests).

As angelus mentioned, only indirect spells are subject to spell resistance (hover over a spell; it will say spell resistance: yes, or spell resistance: no. if no, the spell ignores any spell resistance the target has anyway. The spells you will find affected by it are spells like bestow curse, contagion, slay living, banishment and destruction: indirect effects, not damaging effects like blade barrier or cometfall).

When you cast a spell resistance: yes spell, the spell first checks the target's spell resistance. If it has one, you must make a roll. The roll is (your cleric level + spell penetration bonuses (items, feats, enhancements)) + d20 vs the monster's spell resistance. If the spell resistance is higher, your spell does nothing; even if it has an effect that triggers even if the target saves, it does absolutely nothing (the fear spell is a good example; failed save, the monster is feared; successful save, the monster is shaken, successful spell resistance, the spell didn't happen). The numbers for monster spell resistance in this game tend to start in the high teens and work their way up into the 30s; I know of a couple monsters with spell resistance in the 40s on higher difficulty settings (named/raid bosses). Ordinary devils in the vale of twilight explorer area have a spell resistance of 25-28, the named monsters there 27-30. Monsters in the quests, especially on hard and elite, tend to be higher.

As you can probably deduce, 16 + 1d20 only beats a 25 a little over half the time, and has to roll a 15 to beat a 30 sr. Your best spell pen item (minor spell pen is +1, regular spell pen is +2 and greater spell pen is +3), your spell pen feats (regular and greater, either +2 for the first or +4 if you have both), and enhancements (+1 to +3 depending on investment) add up quickly; having greater spell pen 6, all 3 enhancements and both feats means a level 6 spell (like banishment) is now making a 26 + d20 vs their spell resistance. This, as you can imagine, makes spells far more reliable. Unlike saving throws, spell penetration can succeed on a 1 and fail on a 20 if the number is not high enough, so there will be mobs that are simply immune to your indirect spells and debuffs if their sr is high enough and you have no enhancers.

All mobs, after making a spell pen check (or not if they lack spell pen, effectively 0 vs your d20), then roll the appropriate save vs your spell. This is anything from the reflex save on blade barrier (success = half) to the fortitude save vs destruction (success = take damage, fail = die). All mobs make these (and players!) and they always fail on a 1 and succeed on a 20.

Also to note, as a cleric you have a potent buff called spell resistance, and later spell resistance, mass, which grant the recipients spell resistance equal to 10 + your cleric level (26 at cap). If you are running quests where the monsters are casting a lot of debilitating secondary effect spells (for example: fear, enervation, bestow curse, are the most commonly used by monsters), consider buffing the most vulnerable of your party members with the spell; monsters will then need to make the same sr check in order to cast spells at them, which can save you a lot of removing fear or removing curses (for enervation, death ward tends to be the best answer).

The best way to look at spell resistance is to think of it as armor class vs spells, as it essentially works that way with only your caster level and enhancing items as your to-hit roll, and remember that not all monsters (but a vast majority of later game monsters) have the spell. Enemy clerics self-buff with it, and ogre magi, rakshasa, any fiend-blood template mob, devils/orthons, eladrin, flesh renders, tharakk hounds (in fact, any outsider typed enemy, etc, all possess it in varying degrees.

when spell resistance negates a spell, the target (player or enemy) will flash with a sparkling blue shield around its hands (with pcs, it centers around the weapon hand), which is very flashy and graphical and looks very different from the simple blue hexagon that denotes a failed save; once you've seen it, you will recognize it.

incidently, when you have spell resistance and the enemy fails to penetrate it, it will show you an erronous message (spell penetration success!) but what it really means is spell resistance success (eg, you resisted the spell).

[Gaermain]

I just reached level 12, and need to make a feat selection. It looks like the choice is between Empower and Spell Penetration. Edit: I added Maximize, since it is useful for healing, and I tend to use damage spells only in an emergency. Although my experience so far has been either the group is very good and all I am doing is healing (No emergency). Or the group is not very good and there are no spell points left after healing for damage spells (Emergency). Also, I am not that great at the game mechanics so that I can play healer/battle cleric efficiently. So far, I have the typical healing cleric feats: Mental Toughness, Improved Mental Toughness, Extend, Empower Healing, and Quicken.

Empower wont be much good if spells are resisted. My cleric at level 12, with Wisdom +5 item, has a Wisdom of 30. I used all 3 cleric wisdom enhancements, the human wisdom enhancement, and a wisdom +1 tome equivalent to get there. So far, I have not taken the Spell Penetration enhancements. Will his spells be resisted a lot?

Are there any options for feats other than SP and Empower that you would recommend I consider?

With the progression you have, I'd also recommend Maximize. Pick up Spell Pen at 15 once you get destruction.

I went with a similar progression as you, feat-wise, and once I reached the higher levels ended up swapping out IMT and MT for heighten and SF: Necromancy.

"there are no spell points left after healing for damage spells"

"I tend to use damage spells only in an emergency"

An empowered, maximized, heightened blade barrier (don't forget to smear some potency on that bad boy too) is cheaper than 5/6 heal spells.

Don't be afraid to wad out your mana to mitigate (or prevent altogether) the emergency instead of cleaning up after it...

I'm just saying ;)

[gamblerjoe]

my healbot cleric just doesnt bother casting cc spells at mobs w SR. i fail way too often to make it worth while. with an item in his hand, hes +17/+18 vs SR. that is weaksauce. my sorc is +25/+26 with both feats, and all 3 enhancements. since clerics need to use their mana shrewdly, i reccomend going all or nothing on spell penetration. i have an offensive cleric coming up, and at cap he will have the same DCs and spell penn as my sorc. OCCs are one of the most op things in this game.

now my 2c on other feats and enhancements. quicken is weaksauce, get a concentration check. my healbot has it only for use in manaburn situations, and clearing to the dragons in tor. its pure luxury. when the cap goes up ill swap it out so i can add both empower and heighten to my list. empower healing and extend are mandatory for all clerics. MT feats are madatory for carebear healbots, but theres no room for them on an OCC. i reccomend max for all clerics both for damage spells and toggled for mass heals. if u plan to throw cc, use heighten, but be able to weigh the mana cost of cc vs. healing. empower is just for OCCs, Drrokso is just my feeble attempt to convert a healbot into a versatile cleric.

i think DVs cost too many APs. they are nice for wizards who load the perfect spells, buff the party, and dont have much mana left, but i dont really care. they can drink pots. sorcs REALLY dont need DVs. healbots need to put points into heals, heal crits, and emp empower healing. OCCs are even more expensive, and need wand and scroll mastery even worse on account of how much more of their healing comes from consumables, so they can use their mana for their uber spells. 12 APs on the mandatory +3 sp penn is a lofty ticket too.