Leadership..What is a leader?

[Zenix_Leviticus]

I have seen many party debaucles over the last 3 years and many amazingly easy
runs that I thought were going to be painful. Why is that? How does it happen?

This topic sparked a conversation between a guildie and I. We started disussing
"What is a leader?" and "What are the different types?"

I told him that I am a firm believer that there are 2 basic types of "Leaders" in a
video game. There is the 'True Leader' and the 'Memorizer'. After that there are
sub-types that could be talked about in any leadership seminar that you would
attend (ie. Coach, Democratic, Coercer, Affiliater,.....).

What is the difference?

The 'True Leader' is the guy that can take a group into a quest for the first time
and solve it using the skills of the WHOLE group on the first time with no prior
knowledge. He or she uses a balance of orders and questions to get the whole group
involved so that nobody feels superfluous at the end of the day. This is not a person
that does everything themself. this is also a person that is likely to diplay some basic
strategy to follow and then have a back up plan. They probably think fast if things
don't go as planned and will recognize when a retreat and regroup is callled for.
The true leader is always willing to take the initiative and explore the edges of his
comfort zones.

Sounds like a pretty stand-up person huh....

The memorizer is the guy who goes along with his guild on ever run and learns the
True Leaders' speech like he is listening to his favorite song. After several successful
runs with his mentor, the memorizer will take the stage for his friends like a comedian
doing an impersonation. He will most likely succeed, as long as things go as planned
and people stick to the script.



Many times when I am in a group, I will try to determine wether I am following a
Leader or Memorizer. Sometimes it is hard to tell because after the first run of a
quest, it all starts to become memorization.


This is an important concept for me as I built a guild around the concept of solving
the quests for ourselves. When I am the guy with the STAR and we are doing a
virgin run of a new quest, I ask myself "Am I a leader or a memorizer?" I take a lot
of pride in being able to ace a quest on the first try. I also get frustrated if I ace
too many in a row. I don't know if I was happy or mad when I ran Ghost of Perdition
for the first time. We had just run through every Orchard quest and beat it on or
first try. I was leading us in GoP and we made it to the 2nd tier and party wiped.
I was crushed because any attempt after this would just be cheapened because I
now know what is going to happen.


To me, any attempt after the first time becomes going through the motions and one
step closer to being a loot run.


Before some of you think that I am being overly critical of the memorizer, we all start
becomeing the memorizer after the 2nd and 3rd run of a quest. Also, If wasn't for the
memorizers, most groups would wander around aimlessly or go in 6-12 different
directions....


Now there is another form of pseudo leader. this is what I like to call the 'Grouper'.
This is a person that wants to do a quest and will have the guts to start the group
and throw up the lfm, but he has no intentions of leading anyone anywhere. He
just kind of lets the pieces fall where they may. This is usually when cool trainwreck
stories make it to the forums the next day.


I am left on the point of a double edge sword, where I want to be the good leader and
get the group through on our first run, but I also want it to beat the **** out of us
so we are challenged to try harder........



Back to my random thoughts.......................

[negative]

I AM THE LAW!

[/judge dredd voice]

[Bronko]

Leadership is defined by Daft as, "an influence relationship among leaders and followers who intend real changes and outcomes that reflect their shared purposes."

All good leaders share certain personal and social characteristics such as:

Self-confidence (who would follow someone that doesn't believe in themselves?)
Honesty/Integrity (who would follow someone that they don't trust?)
Vision (they need to have a plan)
Communication Skills (they need to be able to convey that plan to others effectively)


Fundamentally there is that there is a two-way relationship between any leader and his/her followers. This includes a party in DDO. The avenue for this relationship does indeed break down into two basic types just like Zenix touched on in his description of the two leader types he sees in the game. Those two types can be compared as autocratic vs. democratic, employee centered vs. job centered, or in terms of individual relationships (dyads) between a leader and each follower. However you want to view it, there is always a two-way relationship going on which makes good followers just as important as good leaders.

I could go on for a while and bore the heck out of anyone reading this reply. As you can tell I've studied and applied Leadership and Management principles for a while. But what it all boils down to is that there are many leadership techniques and some are better in some situations than others. As long as everyone in the group is having fun while working with honesty towards the common goal of successfully completing the quest than everyone should be a winner.

Unless the CR100 Lag Monster rears it's ugly head of course. ;)

[Aranticus]

a good leader is also a good follower

[Ralmeth]

A good leader is someone who communicates to the party what they are going to do or where they are going to go, someone who keeps the group together and working as a team.

Person with the star:
In my opinion it's the person with the star that is expected to be the leader. If you put up that LFM and you have the star then you better be prepared to lead. If someone else wants to lead, then give them the star. This makes it clear who the leader is in the group. I hate getting in a PUG where all's the person with the star did was put up the LFM.

Clear Communication:
It's so important for a good leader to communicate to the group, and make sure that people are communicating with each other. For example, make sure it's clear that one person is calling out for the group to gather for haste when it's needed.

Keeping the group together:
A good leader will nicely make sure that the people in the group stay near each other. If someone starts wandering off in the wrong direction, then it's important to let them know where the group is going. It's important to communicate which way you are going to go, or if you don't know the quest well to designate someone as the guide. You can be the leader without being the guide and knowing the quest inside and out.

Facilitates teamwork:
It's also important in a good leader to facilitate teamwork. This can typically be done through coming up with tactical decisions that require people to work together. For example, you could decide to have the melee stand in the doorway or a choke point while the casters and cleric stand behind. Or you could have the caster put down some crowd control and have people fight in the crowd control (as opposed to having the arcane put down crowd control and then the melee ignore it and run around the room fighting monsters wherever they happen to be).

Let's members of the party shine:
A good leader will not do everything that needs to be done in a quest. Instead a good leader will let the members of the party shine in the areas that they are good at. For example, if you have an archer in the group have them pick off enemy on ledges or enemy casters off in the distance. If there is an intimitank in the group, fight near that person so they can pull aggro.

Give positive reinforcement or suggestions to help someone improve:
A good leader should give positive reinforcement if someone did a good job on something. On the flip side if someone isn't doing something that great, give some suggestions on how they could do better without being rude.

Know when you have a problem and addresses it:
If a problem comes up, decide what to do about it and address it. For example, if someone in the party simply insists on zerging ahead, never listens to anything anyone says and keeps getting themselves killed, then decide what to do about it. Don't have one or two people running after said person to try and save them, while the other half of the party is working on a different part of the quest. Everyone goes and rescuers said person or everyone ignores them and let's them lay there to rot. If you are fighting a bunch of bad guys and you start to get overwhelmed, come up with a plan fast and let everyone know what needs to be done (even if it's "run back the way we came! We'll fight them at the door."

Well, this has probably gotten too long, but bad leaders drive me nuts, and I enjoy the good ones and like to think I'm a good leader myself when I have the star.

[Zenix_Leviticus]

Nice replies!!!


A true leader need not know the quest to be good.

After you learn or memorize the quest, then you become a tour guide. A tour guide is
a form of leadership, but not required.

In certain quests, many people have memorized the order and exact location that
monsters spawn. They can quickly jump from spot to spot and kill them before they
fully spawn. They know what spell to cast and exactly where to place it to get
maximum efficiency out of it for the next three rooms. You cannot help but do this,
because you have a memory and you are human and will find the easiest way. This
is why I get soooo much enjoyment out of running a quest for the first time with
a bunch of clueless people (including me).

[Bronko]

a good leader is also a good follower

Very well put.

That is another fundamental part of leadership.

[Lifespawn]

A good leader is someone who communicates to the party what they are going to do or where they are going to go, someone who keeps the group together and working as a team.

Person with the star:
In my opinion it's the person with the star that is expected to be the leader. If you put up that LFM and you have the star then you better be prepared to lead. If someone else wants to lead, then give them the star. This makes it clear who the leader is in the group. I hate getting in a PUG where all's the person with the star did was put up the LFM.

.


i'd rather someone put up an lfm than sit around waiting for an lfm to join.

[Ralmeth]

Very well put.

That is another fundamental part of leadership.

I would expand this a little bit to say that a good leader also listens to the other people in the group, and takes their suggestions and ideas seriously.

[Ralmeth]

i'd rather someone put up an lfm than sit around waiting for an lfm to join.

Maybe...I think it's okay to form a group and at the outset say that you're not familiar with the quest and ask if someone else knows it better and see if they would be interested in guiding the group through the quest. I was just in a group this morning where the person with the star did this, and we had a great group for it. What I don't agree with is putting up the LFM and showing no leadership or very little or no communication to at least see if someone can lead the group. I just think if you are going to put up the LFM you should be prepared to be the leader if no one else steps forward. If you have the star, it's your group. Even if all you do is get the group together with a LFM and then get someone else to lead or guide.

[Lifespawn]

Maybe...I think it's okay to form a group and at the outset say that you're not familiar with the quest and ask if someone else knows it better and see if they would be interested in guiding the group through the quest. I was just in a group this morning where the person with the star did this, and we had a great group for it. What I don't agree with is putting up the LFM and showing no leadership or very little or no communication to at least see if someone can lead the group. I just think if you are going to put up the LFM you should be prepared to be the leader if no one else steps forward. If you have the star, it's your group. Even if all you do is get the group together with a LFM and then get someone else to lead or guide.

i'm fine with that there are just too many people that sit and wait for the lfm they want i'd rather people put up the lfm and work through the quest if nobody knows it.

I'm not fine with a person putting a group together for elite if they don't know what they are doing.

[branmakmuffin]

i'm fine with that there are just too many people that sit and wait for the lfm they want i'd rather people put up the lfm and work through the quest if nobody knows it.

I'm not fine with a person putting a group together for elite if they don't know what they are doing.
Define "not knowing what they are doing." Does it mean they don't know the quest like the back of their buttocks? If so, are you saying only "memorizers" should be allowed to start LFMs for quests on Elite?

Or does it mean they simply don't have the general game-playing skills to run a quest?

[Lifespawn]

Define "not knowing what they are doing." Does it mean they don't know the quest like the back of their buttocks? If so, are you saying only "memorizers" should be allowed to start LFMs for quests on Elite?

Or does it mean they simply don't have the general game-playing skills to run a quest?

i'm saying not having leadership skills or any clue about the quest shouldn't put up the lfm for elite without having run it on norm or hard yet.

The person that says blah blah blah quest on elite need opener and then gets the group full and has no clue about the quest.

[branmakmuffin]

i'm saying not having leadership skills or any clue about the quest shouldn't put up the lfm for elite without having run it on norm or hard yet.

The person that says blah blah blah quest on elite need opener and then gets the group full and has no clue about the quest.
So you should only be allowed to LFM for a quest on Elite if you've done it on Normal and Hard.

[Dexxaan]

So you should only be allowed to LFM for a quest on Elite if you've done it on Normal and Hard.

Not necessarily..... maybe if you have led the quest and/or paid attention on Hard and are capable of understanding the challenge of elite.

Why am I explaining this to you? Argh.....

Run Lifespawn.....while you stil can. I've been muffined already.

[Fenrisulven6]

The person that says blah blah blah quest on elite need opener and then gets the group full and has no clue about the quest.

Ooops. I've been doing alot of that. Sorry, but as a new player, the game encourages me to grind to 1750 then scrap my toon for the rebuild I would have built if I wasn't new and already knew the game mechanics of DDO.

For example, if I had known about House P buffs, I wouldn't have splashed 3 mage levels. Trying to join a group of 12th lvl w/p's with a Rogue9/Mage3 is not easy, esp if they want to run it hard/elite. Have to get the favor however I can.

I'm wondering how many other new players are putting up similar LFMs. That may be why you're seeing that.

Regardless, I passed 1750 last night, so you won't see any more of those LFMs from me.

[Ralmeth]

i'm fine with that there are just too many people that sit and wait for the lfm they want i'd rather people put up the lfm and work through the quest if nobody knows it.

I'm not fine with a person putting a group together for elite if they don't know what they are doing.

I agree...More people should take the initiative to put up a LFM, even for quests that they've never run before. No arguments from me here. The issue we were discussing though is what the leader or person with the star does once you get into the quest. Do they just say very little or nothing, don't offer any suggestions on what the group should be doing, don't say anything when people start splitting up and going different directions? The topic is what makes a good leader. I suppose you brought up another good aspect of a good leader, someone who takes the initiative.

[Kistilan]

Not debating -- all good points.

I've seen leaders not know a darn thing about what they're doing still be good leaders. The US Military does it all the time -- officer inspires troops with a mission, specialists (ie the enlisted that know what they're doing) get the job done.

It is influence, initiative, leading by example (being out there, making sure things get done) compassion, understanding, setting a firm line of expectation, etc. There's a lot involved in being a good leader. Knowledge of a specific quest isn't a requirement. Knowing how to use your people in your group IS a better requirement, but sometimes that isn't even necessary.

Knowing a specific quest makes you a specialist, not a good leader. Good leaders are capable of making sure their specialists perform to their expectations and help those that aren't performing ie (stick with this guy, follow me, do this, be that).

[Zenix_Leviticus]

Not debating -- all good points.

I've seen leaders not know a darn thing about what they're doing still be good leaders. The US Military does it all the time -- officer inspires troops with a mission, specialists (ie the enlisted that know what they're doing) get the job done.

It is influence, initiative, leading by example (being out there, making sure things get done) compassion, understanding, setting a firm line of expectation, etc. There's a lot involved in being a good leader. Knowledge of a specific quest isn't a requirement. Knowing how to use your people in your group IS a better requirement, but sometimes that isn't even necessary.

Knowing a specific quest makes you a specialist, not a good leader. Good leaders are capable of making sure their specialists perform to their expectations and help those that aren't performing ie (stick with this guy, follow me, do this, be that).




Well said sir!

[negative]

Not debating -- all good points.

I've seen leaders not know a darn thing about what they're doing still be good leaders. The US Military does it all the time -- officer inspires troops with a mission, specialists (ie the enlisted that know what they're doing) get the job done.

It is influence, initiative, leading by example (being out there, making sure things get done) compassion, understanding, setting a firm line of expectation, etc. There's a lot involved in being a good leader. Knowledge of a specific quest isn't a requirement. Knowing how to use your people in your group IS a better requirement, but sometimes that isn't even necessary.

Knowing a specific quest makes you a specialist, not a good leader. Good leaders are capable of making sure their specialists perform to their expectations and help those that aren't performing ie (stick with this guy, follow me, do this, be that).

I agree with everything you are saying Kist, but there is something to be said for experiance. No matter how good a leader you are, without some knowledge of what you are doing, you won't know how to properly direct those specialists. IE, I may be a great manager/leader at my office job, but I would do a terrible job being a military leader in the field.

Does that mean you need experiance with a specific quest, or does it just mean you need to be familar with the game mechinics and role of different classes/builds? I'm not sure. Ideally a great leader would have both, in addtion to leadership skills and qualities.

[Fenrisulven6]

Does that mean you need experience with a specific quest

A common attribute amoung Great Leaders is their ability to adapt to surprise, make sound judgements at a moments notice, and recover the ball when everything goes wrong [waves to Murphy].

If you already know a specific quest, you've limited your opportunity to face off against those challenges.

Man, I would have loved to have run a mission where I already had spoilers: "Okay, their arty will be set up a this grid, so we're gonna screen the right flank and call in some cruise missiles"

[Zenix_Leviticus]

A common attribute amoung Great Leaders is their ability to adapt to surprise, make sound judgements at a moments notice, and recover the ball when everything goes wrong [waves to Murphy].

If you already know a specific quest, you've limited your opportunity to face off against those challenges.

Man, I would have loved to have run a mission where I already had spoilers: "Okay, their arty will be set up a this grid, so we're gonna screen the right flank and call in some cruise missiles"


You just have to go to the real life war forums and get the latest spoilers.. :)

[Voalkrynn2]

Many times when I am in a group, I will try to determine wether I am following a
Leader or Memorizer. Sometimes it is hard to tell because after the first run of a
quest, it all starts to become memorization.


I often find the memorizer is prone to throwing a hissy fit if one [intentionally or unintentionally] deviates from the script. For example, I ran Delera's with a PUG and got to the three levers first. I had no idea which one was the right one so I guessed. The guy with the star flipped out and told me "Don't do anything if you don't know what's going on!". I pointed out this is Delera's and a couple of levers that don't determine the completion of the quest not Titan which needs coordination between the pillar dropper and the gunner. I took a minor amount of damage that I self-healed and said relax. Further a memorizer doesn't take the time to spell out a plan to any degree as they are not a leader. One might argue the memorizer and psuedo leader are similar enough to be lumped into one catagory (that's for another thread).

[branmakmuffin]

I often find the memorizer is prone to throwing a hissy fit if one [intentionally or unintentionally] deviates from the script.
Excellent point. Memorizers also tend to have one way and one way only to do the quest, because that's how they've memorized it (I suppose this is just an expansion of your point). Memorizers could push themselves toward the "leader" side if they explained up front "Since I'm the leader, this is how I want to do the quest because this is how I know to do the quest."

[krud]

i'm saying not having leadership skills or any clue about the quest shouldn't put up the lfm for elite without having run it on norm or hard yet.

The person that says blah blah blah quest on elite need opener and then gets the group full and has no clue about the quest.

I have absolutley no problem with that at all. This game is about grouping, and if nobody is setting up the lfm for what you want to run, then set one youself. That's exactly what everybody tells newbs every single time they post on the forums about the difficulty in finding groups, "set up your own lfm". Now your saying "set up an lfm only if you have a clue"? :rolleyes: gimme a break.

You don't always need that foreknowledge to run something on elite. I suspect problems usually arise in those groups when the zergers run ahead assuming everything is going to go as smoothly as the last elite run they were led by the nose on. Then they get all uppity when it doesn't go as fast or smoothly as they are accustomed to. Take a chill pill and step up to lead if it looks like the group needs help. If you are unable, then you have as little clue as the people you are berating.

[Varr]

Total tangent from topic........but I think there are too many people that go off the deep end when a quest fails. A failure every once in a while is good for you. Every other quest, not so much, once every 20.........no harm no foul. This can still happen to a good leaders..........something can go unsalvageably wrong and when it does..........it is going to be ok. Got 19 sucesses to look forward to.

I would also note, to me an effort and failure is fine and can even be fun, but no leader is a quiter..........you dont see it is going to be a 4 pass part 4 of the shroud and the 3 clerics are all going to have to drink one pot, and call for a DD after the first pass..............that is quiting, not failure. Give your team a chance to overcome.

[Lifespawn]

I have absolutley no problem with that at all. This game is about grouping, and if nobody is setting up the lfm for what you want to run, then set one youself. That's exactly what everybody tells newbs every single time they post on the forums about the difficulty in finding groups, "set up your own lfm". Now your saying "set up an lfm only if you have a clue"? :rolleyes: gimme a break.

You don't always need that foreknowledge to run something on elite. I suspect problems usually arise in those groups when the zergers run ahead assuming everything is going to go as smoothly as the last elite run they were led by the nose on. Then they get all uppity when it doesn't go as fast or smoothly as they are accustomed to. Take a chill pill and step up to lead if it looks like the group needs help. If you are unable, then you have as little clue as the people you are berating.

yaaa ok read a few of my posts i'd rather people put up the lfm's i don't like when people put up an elite lfm fill it up and then say ok who knows the quest atall.

Thats all i'm saying if you don't know a quest shouldn't you run it on normal if your trying to lead?

The exception ofcourse is stuff way below your level but again some of those are harder than you may think like proof is in the poison or devil assault to name a couple.

Doing these quests on elite and failing horribly because no1 knows anything about them puts a sour taste in peoples mouths and a bad rep for pugs in peoples minds.

Try them on normal first thats all i'm saying and if you must do elite make it known when your filling the group that you need an actual leader.

[Snoggy]

What is a leader?

A cleric, warlord or atificer.

(Someone had to say it)

[negative]

A common attribute amoung Great Leaders is their ability to adapt to surprise, make sound judgements at a moments notice, and recover the ball when everything goes wrong [waves to Murphy].

If you already know a specific quest, you've limited your opportunity to face off against those challenges.

Man, I would have loved to have run a mission where I already had spoilers: "Okay, their arty will be set up a this grid, so we're gonna screen the right flank and call in some cruise missiles"

Which is entirely true, and leads the rest of the quote of mine, that maybe it's more about knowing game mechanics and the abilities, pro's, and con's of each class/build.

You don't need knowledge of the quest at hand, but if you don't know what your specialists do in general, you won't know how to utilize them.

In fact I would agree with just about everyone else in this thread, that the real leader ist he one that can take a whole group of people into the quest for the very first time or a group of experianced people with a bad party make-up and react and make good decisions on the fly, leveraging the abilities of those that are in the group.

[Ralmeth]

I often find the memorizer is prone to throwing a hissy fit if one [intentionally or unintentionally] deviates from the script. For example, I ran Delera's with a PUG and got to the three levers first. I had no idea which one was the right one so I guessed. The guy with the star flipped out and told me "Don't do anything if you don't know what's going on!"

Oh...these types of group leaders drive me nuts. You feel like you have to walk on egg shells around them for fear of not doing something exactly how they wanted. In my opinion these are horrible leaders.

[Draccus]

For whatever reason, the one thing I've determined about leadership in MMOs, after playing them for 12 years, is that real life leadership doesn't carry over well to video games, and vice versa.

I know people who are very strong leaders in real life yet couldn't lead a group through Butcher's Path in DDO. I also know people who can lead flawless Shroud raids with 11 strangers but can't keep a job as the night manager at McDonalds.

I'm sure there are examples to contrary but I don't think RL leadership and video game leadership are consistently related.

[Zenix_Leviticus]

For whatever reason, the one thing I've determined about leadership in MMOs, after playing them for 12 years, is that real life leadership doesn't carry over well to video games, and vice versa.

I know people who are very strong leaders in real life yet couldn't lead a group through Butcher's Path in DDO. I also know people who can lead flawless Shroud raids with 11 strangers but can't keep a job as the night manager at McDonalds.

I'm sure there are examples to contrary but I don't think RL leadership and video game leadership are consistently related.


This is a pretty good statement. I have seen this too, but I have also seen RL leaders
do good in the game as well.


What I have found is that people with alot of real life responsibility and lead people
all of the time come to the game to get away and NOT lead. I have played with CEO's,
Construction Foremen,and Industrial Managers. All of these people would prefer to
let someone else lead in the video game.


Personally, I dislike poor communication and to have superstars in quests. I dislike to
watch one guy do everything and 3-5 others stand around in this guys solo quest
with an audience. I dislike it when statements like "everyone knows what to do so
let's do it." are given by the leader of a pick up group. I also dislike the way most
people approach the game like a ADHD 12 year old on crack. Because of these
dislikes, I lead many groups and it has become the game within the game for me. I
think that I have a tendency to be a memorizer, that is why I like doing a quest for
the first time with clueless people.


As a DDO community, we should realize that the Leader, Memorizer, and the Grouper
all have a purpose and help us get things going. let's face it, many video gamers
are not social butterflies. Many of us are loners and prefer to play long stretches
by oursleves. Many of us would never be in a party if it wasn't for the three groups
of people I listed. We also need to realize each leadership style for what it is and
realize that many of us are not true leaders, but we sure are glad this memorizer
put together the shroud raid. At some point, we realize that we will get what we
want faster if we travel in groups, so even the loner will party up to get what he/she
wants.


I guess what started me thinking about this was someone in-game referring to a
person as a good leader because "He know all of the quests." I just thought to
myself "That has nothing to do with him beong a good leader.....He just has a
good memory and runs lots of quests."

[Mindspat]

Then you have people like me:

Me "ok - like, there's these things that happen and like we can do this, that, or another thing, but we really don't have to do any specific thing as long as we're all doing the same thing."

Player "I'll get agro and kite"

Me "ok, or you could just kick ass on <insert mobs> so we won't need to kite."

Player "Does that work? I've never done that before"

Me "Sure, well...uh, sometimes."

Players: "Wow - That was the easiest run of <insert quest> we've ever done!"

Disclaimer: Party wipes ommitted

I find it more enjoyable to be a spectator of events then to dictate actions leading up to them.

[Spookykid]

a leader is someone who brings the best booze aka making things fun

[Poe76]

First let me say this has been one of the most intelligent threads
I've read in awhile, really good posts everyone, and almost completetly
free of arguing / screaming at each other :)

I just started a new toon on a different server to try a new build and
take a break from things.

I have been attempting to lead more pug groups and get quests/chains
done for xp and favor without leading everyone to party wipe doom :)

I try and be as passive as I can be, offering suggestions that I know
will work, or in quests where i'm not sure of what is around the next
corner "Please stay together / please fight in the crowd control / let's
try to fight in the doorway"

Personally I dislike telling people that there is only one way to do a
quest and if you don't like it shove off. All I ask is that you give me
the respect of listening to me when i politely suggest a course of
action. And I will do the same for you when you have the star. Try
to be open to suggestions, take a bump in the road in stride and do
your best to overcome, even if it's some Jaggoff that won't listen.

A little people skills go a long way and please no screaming or yelling,
whether it's a party wipe or someone going against the plan. With
one caveat, if you join a raid group...especially something resource
intensive such as the shroud or others, listen and follow to the best
of your ability, if you screw up take responsiblity for it and do better
the next time.

All Respect to the leaders and the ones being led :)

[gfunk]

One oft-overlooked aspect of leadership is Charisma..i.e. being the sort of person that people want to listen to. It's also something thats difficult to achieve without visual contact between people which may explain the differences between peoples leadership in RL with that in game.

I often shy away from leading raids as I seem to lack the vocal persuassion techniques that other people have, so I would have to resort to being sharp with people to get them to listen up (or I just let things slide, to the detriment of the raid, e.g. in VOD when teliing people to wait to attack the orthons till after the intimidator has established agro it might typically go like this:

"could everyone please not swing at the orthons until Intimitank X has established agro?"...

---random attacking ensues---

"hey melees A,B, and E, stop attacking all those orthons for the moment"
---low AC melees taking massive damage, cleric is burning mana senselessly, I wonder if people have their sound off...---

I type in chat "stop attacking orthons, wait till intimitank has them"
---random attacking continues, health bars start disappearing...the bats approach...---

Now at this point, some people might yell and scream
"Listen you ***** ****** pieces of *******, sit yer ***** down in the ***** corner or we are all *****", .. pauses..." ****!!!!, ****!!!!"

which may acheive results... but I'm certainly not going to talk that way in a game..

This seems to be a common trait amongst raid leaders... "compensate for lack of charisma by screaming at people" (which may of course backfire sometimes.. http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=HtvIYRrgZ04 ). A person could also dry devious leadership tactics, like telling the clerics to stop healing the delinquent melees, however this only works when it's just 1 or 2 people who aren't listening... its pretty tough when it's half of the party.

In the end, I think that a good leader uses some of the pre-raid and early raid time to establish a rapport with the players so that they are keen on listening to them.

[JoKidd]

"Attitude reflect Leadership" :o

[Poe76]

:D This flippin video is completely Flipping GREAT!

ROTFFLMAO!

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=HtvIYRrgZ04

Good job Gfunk!

[Tenkari_Rozahas]

you know, the first time i read this thread title, i was thinking you were talking about the PnP Feat. >>

[Kistilan]

For whatever reason, the one thing I've determined about leadership in MMOs, after playing them for 12 years, is that real life leadership doesn't carry over well to video games, and vice versa.

I know people who are very strong leaders in real life yet couldn't lead a group through Butcher's Path in DDO. I also know people who can lead flawless Shroud raids with 11 strangers but can't keep a job as the night manager at McDonalds.

I'm sure there are examples to contrary but I don't think RL leadership and video game leadership are consistently related.



"Attitude reflect Leadership" :o


I think these two posts exemplify leadership -- it's a passion for what you're doing. Attitude is everything. Superstar!

I have been there, working a Wal*Mart job in High School & the passion wasn't there -- it was on the Internet in a chatroom, writing. I couldn't hold a job if you put a gun to my head then.

Yet, I've got a great job now working as an officer in the USAF -- and I love it so I succeed because there's some attitude & passion involved. I think anyone that loves DDO and enjoys leading a quest can be exceptional or has the potential to be exceptional in that leadership, yet could still fail or be subpar at their leadership position IRL because they just aren't into their job.

Definitely A for Attitude and P for Passion. Advanced Placement in Catergory = Leader learning how to use Leadership. Nice posts everyone in this thread -- been great to see the many views and examples.