I hate to be the turd but...

[AgamemnonV1]

...My fears pretty much came true. Unfortunately, I feel as if DDO can't still hold my enthrall and interest within the game. Maybe because it's set in Eberron and I hate the Eberron campaign (Forgotten Realms FTW) or maybe it's because I felt like I was playing LotRO with broken legs, but it seems like not much has changed since I last played. I know the common argument here is, "Well, DDO is too complex for you," or, "Well, DDO is improving, give it a few more years," but sadly these won't work on me. As such, I said (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168753) I would give it a try and I did. If you guys are happy with it, however, I suppose that's what counts. Good luck.

[Mhykke]

Curious, what don't you like about it?

[Hobgoblin]

bye

[BLAKROC]

...My fears pretty much came true. Unfortunately, I feel as if DDO can't still hold my enthrall and interest within the game. Maybe because it's set in Eberron and I hate the Eberron campaign (Forgotten Realms FTW) or maybe it's because I felt like I was playing LotRO with broken legs, but it seems like not much has changed since I last played. I know the common argument here is, "Well, DDO is too complex for you," or, "Well, DDO is improving, give it a few more years," but sadly these won't work on me. As such, I said (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168753) I would give it a try and I did. If you guys are happy with it, however, I suppose that's what counts. Good luck.

That was the sound of the door :eek:

[AgamemnonV1]

Curious, what don't you like about it?
It's still just too boring. Right from the beginning intro video to the starter instance, I'm too disinterested to care. Again, I don't know if that's just a problem with me having zero interest in Eberron, but it seemed like it was a whole lot of waiting to exhale--waiting for something to happen. And, at times, that moment would come, but then it would quickly leave, or it was rather anti-climatic. The lack of any sort of music to compliment this also doesn't help either; I was honestly fighting off boredom last night as I went through the starter instance.

And, just as I remember, getting to Stormreach is like being tossed off a cliff. No real sense of direction afterwards and not enough interest to spend time trying to get back on the horse to care. Believe me, I enjoy D&D, but I still think this is not the best adaptation to it. The solo instances of the narrator filling the role as the DM is still a nice touch, but not when every single instance includes "kill x baddies, solve puzzle, kill boss, end." Maybe that does switch up after the 20th quest, but, like I said, it just didn't keep me interested enough for me to continue on.

[moorewr]

Well, at least you did the trial again, that's all anyone can ask of you. I can't say you sound like you came with an open mind (in fact you sound like you made a trial account for no other reason than to say "see? I still hate it") or tried very many things, but that's your affair.

That said, how many groups did you join? How many classes did you try out? What level did you attain? What in particular did you like the most and the least?

When I tried Lotro (and before DDO, when I tried WoW and EQ) I was totally disengaged from combat and character building.. some people like a complex combat system.. some don't miss it.. but Lotro is the one that feels broken to me.

[stoc]

It's still just too boring. Right from the beginning intro video to the starter instance, I'm too disinterested to care. Again, I don't know if that's just a problem with me having zero interest in Eberron, but it seemed like it was a whole lot of waiting to exhale--waiting for something to happen. And, at times, that moment would come, but then it would quickly leave, or it was rather anti-climatic. The lack of any sort of music to compliment this also doesn't help either; I was honestly fighting off boredom last night as I went through the starter instance.

And, just as I remember, getting to Stormreach is like being tossed off a cliff. No real sense of direction afterwards and not enough interest to spend time trying to get back on the horse to care. Believe me, I enjoy D&D, but I still think this is not the best adaptation to it. The solo instances of the narrator filling the role as the DM is still a nice touch, but not when every single instance includes "kill x baddies, solve puzzle, kill boss, end." Maybe that does switch up after the 20th quest, but, like I said, it just didn't keep me interested enough for me to continue on.


Well glad you came by to give it a try. I hope you find something you like.

[Ragnar13]

You say you don't like "kill x baddies, solve puzzle, kill boss, end." I tried out LOTRO, and actually subscribe for awhile and got to about lvl 38. How can you enjoy the go fetch 10 boar heads, turn in, fetch 10 wolf skins, turn in, fetch 10 bear hides?

[Mhykke]

You say you don't like "kill x baddies, solve puzzle, kill boss, end." I tried out LOTRO, and actually subscribe for awhile and got to about lvl 38. How can you enjoy the go fetch 10 boar heads, turn in, fetch 10 wolf skins, turn in, fetch 10 bear hides?

Not to mention the fact that I can think of only 1 quest in the whole game (kobold assault) that is something like "kill x mobs".

[Kanamycin]

was this the guy who wrote that article?

[Korvek]

Not to mention the fact that I can think of only 1 quest in the whole game (kobold assault) that is something like "kill x mobs".

The only other ones I can come up with are TR part 1 and arguably the Butcher's Path/Threnal West Part 1 (Even though you've killed the required amount of monsters just making it to the end).

[Borror0]

was this the guy who wrote that article?

Yup.

[Mhykke]

The only other ones I can come up with are TR part 1 and arguably the Butcher's Path/Threnal West Part 1 (Even though you've killed the required amount of monsters just making it to the end).

Yep, so we're about at 4 total quests, out of how many?

I'm sorry, but that was just a weird statement by the OP, saying that "every single instance" to him was kill X number of mobs? I'm not sure the OP was playing DDO, b/c that is the complete and total opposite of virtually every quest in game. I mean, heck, most of the quests can be completed by running past most mobs in game (especially when soloing). Just a really weird comment. I don't mind criticisms of the game, heck I agree with some. I can see how it isn't for some. But this criticism just isn't correct, and it seemed like it was his main one.

I really would love the OP to tell us what quests he played and how the objectives were the equivalent to "kill x number" of mobs. Very curious indeed.

[Korvek]

Yep, so we're about at 4 total quests, out of how many?

204-ish?

Oh, just thought of another one: Swiped Signet.

Edit: Dead Predators is another.

Archer's Point Defense.

/Scrolls through Favor Log some more.

Stormcleave technically.

So that's what? Around 4% of the total?

[AgamemnonV1]

Well, at least you did the trial again, that's all anyone can ask of you. I can't say you sound like you came with an open mind (in fact you sound like you made a trial account for no other reason than to say "see? I still hate it") or tried very many things, but that's your affair.
It's one of those, "It's not you, it's me" things. I never enjoyed it from the beginning, yes, and that mostly had to do with the way the game is built from the ground up, which many others do enjoy. It's not different than someone not liking WoW for a specific reason and still not being able to enjoy it after countless trials afterwards (guilty there as well). I don't like the feel and setting of DDO and that is obviously something that won't change. Is it a crime?


That said, how many groups did you join? How many classes did you try out? What level did you attain? What in particular did you like the most and the least?
Like I said before, there is no excuse to why an MMO might fail to deliver on a certain front. You shouldn't have to join a group or try out other classes or get to a certain level to start enjoying the game (apologies if that wasn't the aim of what you were trying to get at). But to answer your questions. I was in zero groups. There were other people in the starter instance, and I got a few tells asking to group up, but, as a trial player, I can't reply to tells. I tried to run around town to find them but to no avail. The first time I did get invited to a group to which I could respond to (only because I was ten feet away from the group) was for a quest a level above mine, and while I thought it over, another in their group told me they just got someone else in their group. For what class I tried out; Male Ranger, Darkwood Sniper. Had zero trouble doing what I needed to do, though I found ranged combat somewhat restrictive when my arrows constantly missed targets ten feet away from me (seriously, I some how got Rapid Reload when I achieved LV2, yet I didn't even have Point Blank Shot, which is a prerequisite). As for the level; LV2, second rank in that level.

What I liked the most was that it had the elements of D&D in it. There were the armor check penalties and the spell failures and movement restriction when going through water; all little elements that tied together well. But the combat was so fast that by the time I had swung my sword two or three times there was little reason to use a skill--that is, if I even had the time to fire it off. The UI still feels a bit restrictive to get the hang of and there is always the problem of implementing skills that don't have their real use in D&D due to the fact that we're in an ARPG setting (so things like Diplomacy and Bluff have different roles).

What I really dislike, however, is the overall billing of being D&D, despite that you cannot be any Evil alignment. This feels more like an excuse to alternate topic choices when talking to people. Yeah, it's there a bit in the starter instance, but it shrinks and shrinks once you get to Stormreach. That was always my complaint in the past and I also know that's something that wont change (unless there's a DDO2 I suppose). The point to D&D is to play a role in which the choices you make influence the outcome of the campaign setting. To this I still think Neverwinter Nights is the best adaptation to the D&D to a video game (mostly because the tool set offers limitless possibilities).


When I tried Lotro (and before DDO, when I tried WoW and EQ) I was totally disengaged from combat and character building.. some people like a complex combat system.. some don't miss it.. but Lotro is the one that feels broken to me.
I don't disagree. There were some serious complaints about the way Burglars and Lore-Masters worked post-Book 14 and Mines of Moria attempted to do a double-take to the system, but I believe it's just a temporary bandaid to an overall problem Turbine has yet to find a solution to yet.


You say you don't like "kill x baddies, solve puzzle, kill boss, end." I tried out LOTRO, and actually subscribe for awhile and got to about lvl 38. How can you enjoy the go fetch 10 boar heads, turn in, fetch 10 wolf skins, turn in, fetch 10 bear hides?
Don't get me wrong, I never said I did. In fact, before I was banned off the lotro forums, the majority of criticism I gave was aimed at hoping for better quests rather than the simple drivel you would find in a typical grind-fest MMO (that, and trying to improve housing--someone send my regards to Adder if they post on the LotRO forums). What I meant by "kill x baddies, solve puzzle, kill boss, end," was that was the sequence of events that always happened in all the quests that I tried in DDO. You started the instance, killed a bunch of lackies, solved a puzzle, killed the boss, and then the instance was over. In one quest in Stormreach there is a bit where a woman wants you to retrieve a book from a librarian. Once the librarian leaves, you steal the book and the librarian locks you in. Ironically, in all these "trap" settings, there is always a way to get out, like as if the librarian spent the better part of a summer building complex passages, traps, and leaving animated corpses just so you could jump through hoops and then escape. That's not what D&D is about. Where is the dialogue option through a high intelligence score to reason with the librarian? Where is your Bluff skill coming into play to try and buy your way out of the trap? That was my critique. There's only one way to solve such quests and that's from Point A to Point B.


was this the guy who wrote that article?
Yep, I'm that bastard.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Seems to me you made up yer mind before you even logged in.

Should someone who reviews games really have an attitude like that?

Maybe you should try being a cop instead.

[CrimsonEagle]

It's still just too boring. Right from the beginning intro video to the starter instance, I'm too disinterested to care. Again, I don't know if that's just a problem with me having zero interest in Eberron, but it seemed like it was a whole lot of waiting to exhale--waiting for something to happen. And, at times, that moment would come, but then it would quickly leave, or it was rather anti-climatic. The lack of any sort of music to compliment this also doesn't help either; I was honestly fighting off boredom last night as I went through the starter instance.

And, just as I remember, getting to Stormreach is like being tossed off a cliff. No real sense of direction afterwards and not enough interest to spend time trying to get back on the horse to care. Believe me, I enjoy D&D, but I still think this is not the best adaptation to it. The solo instances of the narrator filling the role as the DM is still a nice touch, but not when every single instance includes "kill x baddies, solve puzzle, kill boss, end." Maybe that does switch up after the 20th quest, but, like I said, it just didn't keep me interested enough for me to continue on.


Different strokes for different folks:)

First off, I think this game was nor for you from the beginning. You came in with a certain mindset and held that bias tightly from beginning to end. I am not faulting you for this....it is human nature.

There is no difference between this game and any other game out there in regards to "Kill x baddies, solve puzzle, kill boss". I cannot think of any MMO out there that this is not the objective, though they go about it in different ways.

Now, you mention a little about npc interaction. Something that I would love to see is the option to listen to all the npc's in the game when they are telling you what needs to be done. Different voices, personalities, etc, etc. Perhaps this will come into the future, perhaps not. For me, it would add some nice flavor to the game, but is not needed to a point that I would consider it detrimental.

I don't know. Some people consider the thought of chopping down a tree, fishing, baking a cake, mining for hours, etc, etc, to be fun. Why? I have no idea. I will never understand that, just as I do not consider it to be fun running across the continent for an hour to wait for a spawn along with 20 other people who are waiting for the same spawn to happen.

Here, I love the fact that everything is instanced and everything is relatively close.

I love the fact that I don't have to worry about pk's waiting in groups for some stray to pass them by so they can kill them and feel uber.

Also love the fact that everything that I can control....every twitch, every keystroke, every button push allows me complete and utter control.

But, as I said. Different strokes for different folks. Some people like the very things that I dislike and hate the very things that I am looking for in a game.

This does not mean that there are no flaws in this game. I doubt there is anyone here who would state otherwise....including the developers. All in all though, at this point in time, there is nothing else out there to compare....at least for me.

I am also biased. I am more than willing to admit this. I cant even remember all of the MMO's and other online games I have tried. Online gaming really began for me with Never Winter Nights on AOL oh so long ago.

Some games I stayed for an extended time...others I played for a week or two and just didn't get it.

It was not until this game came out that I said to myself, "****, this is it". This is what I am looking for and I have found it.

There will come a time in the future, (Unless we blow ourselves up), that a game will come out that will not only rival, but will exceed this game, but for now, for me, everything else falls short. By a large margin.

I think that IF they decide to start an advertising blitz (equivalent to what WoW did) once the game is "complete" ie 20 cap, all classes/races implemented, DDO will have a very good chance to not only succeed, but thrive.

In my opinion, it has what many people want. Fast, realtime action without the tons of useless "fluff" that so many other games have implemented.

Only time will tell however. If the game does in fact go the way of the Dodo, it will not be the fault of the game itself, or the people who have developed it and will rest solely on the shoulders of the people responsible for marketing this product.

This is where WoW got it right. Its not that it is all that great of a game so much as it is the fact that they marketed it in a massive way, and still do to this day.

Regardless of anything that I have written and regardless of whether you enjoyed the game or not. I would hold off a bit to predict the death of DDO. In the end you may be right, but the ball is still in their court. It is up to them whether they kick it out of bounds or not.

Crimson.

[CrimsonEagle]

Yep, I'm that bastard.


LOL. Naw. Just wasnt for you man. Different strokes.

You do bring up some good points, but all in all, BECAUSE of the name, you were expecting something else and you cant get past that.

I realized the first day I played that DDO is only losely based on D&D. I also realized that in order to create a game that fit my visions of what an onlineMMO/realtime action D&D game should be is at this time nearly impossible.

In the future perhaps. For now, I'm still having fun:)

[moorewr]

I was in zero groups.

Wow. Well, that's hardly a full test of a game based around grouping. But see below:


There were other people in the starter instance, and I got a few tells asking to group up, but, as a trial player, I can't reply to tells. I tried to run around town to find them but to no avail. The first time I did get invited to a group to which I could respond to (only because I was ten feet away from the group) was for a quest a level above mine, and while I thought it over, another in their group told me they just got someone else in their group.

Turbine take note! The new no tell/no reply policy is hurting trial players. His case is surely far from unique.

[Enir]

It's still just too boring. Right from the beginning intro video to the starter instance, I'm too disinterested to care. Again, I don't know if that's just a problem with me having zero interest in Eberron, but it seemed like it was a whole lot of waiting to exhale--waiting for something to happen. And, at times, that moment would come, but then it would quickly leave, or it was rather anti-climatic. The lack of any sort of music to compliment this also doesn't help either; I was honestly fighting off boredom last night as I went through the starter instance.

And, just as I remember, getting to Stormreach is like being tossed off a cliff. No real sense of direction afterwards and not enough interest to spend time trying to get back on the horse to care. Believe me, I enjoy D&D, but I still think this is not the best adaptation to it. The solo instances of the narrator filling the role as the DM is still a nice touch, but not when every single instance includes "kill x baddies, solve puzzle, kill boss, end." Maybe that does switch up after the 20th quest, but, like I said, it just didn't keep me interested enough for me to continue on.

At least you had some reasons for not liking DDO. Thank you for trying it out.
I tried out LOTR and WoW; didn't like either one.
DDO is just my speed. Can I have your stuff? Please?

[transtemporal]

Interesting points Aga (if you're still reading this thread).

I completely agree that DDO is not DnD, or at least, its not the PnP DnD that you played with your mates. Certain aspects of the game, like the evil alignment and the quest-breaking solutions players come up with, are best handled by a RL dm. A script can't really accomodate those possibilities in a manner that doesn't feel, well... scripted. (In fact, some DMs can't handle those possibilities either but thats another thread.)

DDO focuses on what the current technologies do well - linear story-telling. An NPC gives you a task, you kill some bad guys, you solve a puzzle, you kill a boss, you get some loot.

PnP isn't much more complex when you get down to it. Occassionally it feels more artificial because your DM has designed a quest for you and has some vested interest in your doing it, which leads to a certain amount of railroading on his or her part. At least the game is up front about it, lol.

[esoitl]

If you're looking to find actual D&D play, you're never going to get it from a computer game, especially one like this. Now I'm all for D&D as you were looking for, working your way out of a jam with whatever means neccesary but it isn't going to happen unless you have someone live adapting the story which we don't have.

If you played up to them, there are some instances where you use certain skills and depending of the outcome, can avoid fights. The skills to be honest aren't groundbreaking, nor are they really useful to the scale that table-top play allows them to be used but they do come out at certain occasions.

As others mentioned, it seemed like you came it hating it, played through part of the trial and then quit which isn't a fair assessment at all. To each his own, at least some of us can find the true uniqueness of the game and enjoy it for the truly varied game it is.

[Raithe]

PnP isn't much more complex when you get down to it. Occassionally it feels more artificial because your DM has designed a quest for you and has some vested interest in your doing it, which leads to a certain amount of railroading on his or her part. At least the game is up front about it, lol.

First off, the game is not "up front" about its shallow game mechanics. One would actually expect far more from a game that provides the sophisticated physics and art rendering that DDO provides, not less sophistication than many text-based MUDs and/or tabletop campaigns.

Second, the definition of PnP D&D in the quote above reflects a marked lack of real roleplaying game experience. If someone doesn't really understand what is being discussed, it's often best to avoid interjection, or possibly ask questions, instead of trying to appear like an expert. Otherwise it can just really be... embarassing... for everyone.

Third, I find it quite amusing at how dismissive most of the replies to the OP have been. "You obviously didn't want to like it before you even began playing," and simliar replies are simply baseless and lacking substance. People are not going to pass up a real opportunity for excitement and fun if they actually find it. As the OP pointed out, "working hard" at trying to have fun is a bit of an oxymoron. That such a concept is advocated (even slightly) is more telling about the existing playerbase (especially those who post on the forums) and their attachment to DDO as an investment with supposed "dividends," rather than a truly entertaining activity.

Lastly, I consider the OP to be a discerning representative of countless equivalent opinions I have read and inferred over the internet concerning the failure of DDO as a D&D product. The OP is not in some strange minority, he could actually be grouped with the significant majority of people who have tried DDO and came to similar conclusions about gameplay. The lack of humility the DDO fanbase has in the face of that particular majority is quite... disconcerting. I don't fully understand the reasons behind that lack of humility, but let me make one last attempt at driving a point home:

There are a great many people that do not like DDO, and while some particular person may find the game structure appealing, that personal taste is indeed quite personal. DDO is existent proof that many game markets are, in truth, niche markets.

[sephiroth1084]

There are some quests later on that employ the social skills in a quest-related application (getting information, making a friend of an NPC, etc...), but they are few and far between. I agree that many of the quests are too straight forward and do not allow for much variation on how to attack the thing, but there are also many that do. The most common variation is solving a quest through stealth, by which many quests may be completed, though this requires a dedicated build and skill.

I haven't played NWN, but have heard good things. However, I gather that the game is very different in how it plays compared to other MMOs.

In any case, I really do think that you should give the game some more time, since there are many interesting quests, and the game becomes more interesting as you level. Puzzles become more elaborate, fights more engaging.

DDO is D&D...or at least is pretty true to the origins of D&D in that the game, for many people is light on role playing and heavy on combat... One DM I play with loves the whole dungeon crawl hack 'n' slash thing. I prefer some depth beyond that when I play PnP, but I do like DDO.

[AgamemnonV1]

Seems to me you made up yer mind before you even logged in.

Should someone who reviews games really have an attitude like that?

Maybe you should try being a cop instead.
Ah, I see, because I've clearly written a review on DDO, right?

I hope this isn't how you always take criticism. I wonder how you make it in the real world when you get a C on a term paper. "Well, I'm sorry you saw it that way, professor, but it seems your predetermined decision on your research has led you to be biased against my paper. Perhaps you should be a cop instead." Aristotle is rolling in his grave right now.


There is no difference between this game and any other game out there in regards to "Kill x baddies, solve puzzle, kill boss". I cannot think of any MMO out there that this is not the objective, though they go about it in different ways.
Very true. But here's a little secret about me; I certainly don't let that off my radar of critique either for any other MMO. Just because it is a common placement within every MMO I do not think it is reason enough to let it slide so lightly. Perhaps DDO does have some gem quests, just as LotRO does have the occasional gem quest too (I especially loved this one Warg quest in the Misty Mountains that involves fighting a pack leader...I wish Turbine would involve quests to be that storyline-driven more often).


I am also biased. I am more than willing to admit this.
Oh, please, we all are, despite what some people might try to sell you. Who doesn't have an opinion on something?


I think that IF they decide to start an advertising blitz (equivalent to what WoW did) once the game is "complete" ie 20 cap, all classes/races implemented, DDO will have a very good chance to not only succeed, but thrive.
I believe this is another problem for the game with me. I know D&D has a traditional level cap of 20 and DDO tries to offset this with ranks, but it feels like it takes a long time to progress with your character. Though I will say being able to multiclass is a very neat thing for DDO. It certainly kills the concept of cookie cutter classes. But another fun fact is that D&D does have epic leveling, despite that, traditionally, being level 20 is next to being godly, it is something to consider for an expansion pack (and I mean a real expansion pack and not just content patches).


In my opinion, it has what many people want. Fast, realtime action without the tons of useless "fluff" that so many other games have implemented.
That's another problem for me as well. Call me simple-minded, but I do enjoy the occasional flash and sound effects when setting off skills (I guess I should have played a Sorcerer, huh?). It's good to see that Turbine has learned as much as well; "real" is boring and it's not something people really like in their games in large doses. A lot of the colors in DDO felt washed out or had a bad case of the curse of real coloring (i.e. making everything a shade of brown).


Regardless of anything that I have written and regardless of whether you enjoyed the game or not. I would hold off a bit to predict the death of DDO. In the end you may be right, but the ball is still in their court. It is up to them whether they kick it out of bounds or not.
The ball is actually in the player's court. Remember, an active subscriber base is what influences the decisions and directions of an MMO. Sure enough, if more people subscribe to DDO, I imagine Turbine will pay more attention to it.


Wow. Well, that's hardly a full test of a game based around grouping.
The game is based around grouping? Really? Is that why every instance has a ticker that says "SOLO"? I was under the impression DDO was trying to appeal to all types of players here (and I happen to be the solo'er).


Can I have your stuff? Please?
Heh, it's all BOA. ;)


I completely agree that DDO is not DnD, or at least, its not the PnP DnD that you played with your mates. Certain aspects of the game, like the evil alignment and the quest-breaking solutions players come up with, are best handled by a RL dm. A script can't really accomodate those possibilities in a manner that doesn't feel, well... scripted. (In fact, some DMs can't handle those possibilities either but thats another thread.)
Very good point. However, it wouldn't hurt to have generic paths to a quest, would it? And I don't mean of a specific alignment; just general mindsets. You have the good-natured hero who wishes to help out of the kindness of his heart, you have the sellsword who does it if the price is right, and then you have the anti-hero that betrays or takes the object of affection for himself. Bethesda handles this well enough (though I wish all of their quests didn't involve violent-only solutions).


PnP isn't much more complex when you get down to it. Occassionally it feels more artificial because your DM has designed a quest for you and has some vested interest in your doing it, which leads to a certain amount of railroading on his or her part. At least the game is up front about it, lol.
Depends on your DM, I suppose. I personally like to create entire worlds for one setting for players to play in, with active politics that go on as the adventurers progress. Will I toss in the occasional death? Yes, definitely. It is much better to keep your players on their toes than to make them think the game is revolving around them. On the other hand, the game is revolving around the politics of the world. The players are merely the actors on the stage. They all play their parts and some play many in their lifetime (hooray Shakespeare?).


If you're looking to find actual D&D play, you're never going to get it from a computer game, especially one like this. Now I'm all for D&D as you were looking for, working your way out of a jam with whatever means neccesary but it isn't going to happen unless you have someone live adapting the story which we don't have.
But that's the beauty of it. You do have someone constantly feeding you content patches every now and then. And the concept of GMs playing as DMs is not a foreign one either. Again, this is why I bring up Neverwinter Nights, because you could do this. There are still PWs out there whose creators constantly update the content within the game and have anywhere from four to five DMs playing their roles to entice players and throw curve balls at them. Asian MMOs are big on having their GMs actively creating events.


If you played up to them, there are some instances where you use certain skills and depending of the outcome, can avoid fights. The skills to be honest aren't groundbreaking, nor are they really useful to the scale that table-top play allows them to be used but they do come out at certain occasions.
That was a problem for me. How long did I need to wait before I needed to use my skills? Skills like Trip and Sunder which were rather useless if the enemy went down in two or three hits? Why would I sneak around enemies that are easy to kill and that would offer me good XP?


As others mentioned, it seemed like you came it hating it, played through part of the trial and then quit which isn't a fair assessment at all. To each his own, at least some of us can find the true uniqueness of the game and enjoy it for the truly varied game it is.
Hate? No. I dislike the game. And I'm not sure what everyone is expecting out of me. I wouldn't force any one of you to play a game you didn't like after eight hours of play. I'm really tired of the "give it a chance" card being played all of the time. I certainly don't play the card for people who don't like LotRO. I don't blame them; after my first eight hours of LotRO I was ready to quit too. But, like you guys, I found something that I enjoyed and stuck with it. So why is it so bad for me to dislike this game? I'm one person and you are many; if you enjoy the game then enjoy it. I still don't understand why there was such a large following to it with my article. I'm still relatively unknown, despite how many Diggs the article got or it appearing on Kotaku or Derek Smart making cracks about it. Even now I still won't (and haven't) tell people to not play DDO, but if someone asks me my opinion about DDO, what am I supposed to do? Keep my mouth shut? I think not.

So as Crimson pointed out, different strokes. ;)

[GorumT]

Well, since I don't review games for a living (I only play them) I guess I can be the jerk. :)

Seems to me Agamemnon (great choice of name btw, Greek "hero" that gets killed by his wifes mistress after he rapes Troy) that if you don't like WoW and you don't like DDO, then you may not be a fan of MMOs. This is to say, the two are polar opposites, and you dislike (by your own admission) both of them.

Stick to reviewing FPS games, I think they may be more your speed. :)

[AgamemnonV1]

Uh, Agamemnon is killed by both his cousin and his wife as well as co-conspirators too (following the account of Agamemnon's telling of what happened at a banquet in celebration for his return to Mycenae in The Odyssey). I was actually going with the central theme of brilliant tactician and supreme commander of the Achaean forces when it became my handle in my days on Starcraft.

Aside from that, I oddly enjoy LotRO, which, oddly, is an MMO. I like Crimson's reasoning to it; different strokes. Maybe it was because LotRO was the first MMO I was actually able to get in to? I don't know. I wanted to like Tabula Rasa. I wanted to like Hellgate: London. I wanted to like Pirates of the Burning Sea. I wanted to like Age of Conan (in fact, I have a very funny story about the GMs in beta in AoC that doesn't involve cyber sex). I couldn't help it the developers of said games didn't want to fine-tune their games before releasing them. I can't help it if the bright kiddy colors of WoW give me a head ache or the washed-out colors of DDO put me to sleep. What am I do? I suppose keep looking for other MMOs. I liked Eve on some level, but it's too much of a grindfest for me. Maybe the Warhammer 40K MMO will deliver? Who knows.

What I do know, however, is that an enjoyable game, to me, is one I am willing to invest my time in, as long as the price tag justifies the content found within the game.

[GorumT]

Uh, Agamemnon is killed by both his cousin and his wife as well as co-conspirators too (following the account of Agamemnon's telling of what happened at a banquet in celebration for his return to Mycenae in The Odyssey). I was actually going with the central theme of brilliant tactician and supreme commander of the Achaean forces when it became my handle in my days on Starcraft.

Aside from that, I oddly enjoy LotRO, which, oddly, is an MMO. I like Crimson's reasoning to it; different strokes. Maybe it was because LotRO was the first MMO I was actually able to get in to? I don't know. I wanted to like Tabula Rasa. I wanted to like Hellgate: London. I wanted to like Pirates of the Burning Sea. I wanted to like Age of Conan (in fact, I have a very funny story about the GMs in beta in AoC that doesn't involve cyber sex). I couldn't help it the developers of said games didn't want to fine-tune their games before releasing them. I can't help it if the bright kiddy colors of WoW give me a head ache or the washed-out colors of DDO put me to sleep. What am I do? I suppose keep looking for other MMOs. I liked Eve on some level, but it's too much of a grindfest for me. Maybe the Warhammer 40K MMO will deliver? Who knows.

What I do know, however, is that an enjoyable game, to me, is one I am willing to invest my time in, as long as the price tag justifies the content found within the game.


You "wanted" to like those games, yet you realy don't seem to "want" to like DDO. DOn't get me wrong, I was the same way for years. I ended my account 30 days after buying the game when it released. But I came back with a open mind. Can you say the same?

Also, on a personal note, Agamemnon was a prick. Even examining Homers Illiad shows that Homer thought the man a ******. His Wife was a Priestess of Hera, which the male driven Greeks hated. Which also explained why she had "consorts" helping her sacrifice her husband in a attempt to reclaim the Female dominance thier land had been under before the "Zues" worshippers over ran it.

Lastly, if you dislike every game except LotrO (did you make a toon nammed Legololz?) then stay far away from WAR. WAR is HEAVY PvP with almost no PvE content, a bad physics engine, horrible UI, and choppy graphics. Good luck.

[Kanamycin]

i think the main thing is feeling a connection with your characters and the world you are playing in , if its all just numbers and bad guys and xp then you loose interest.

i personally didnt enjoy the game until i hit level 10 because i was in a hurry to catch up to my friends who were all a higher level than me . and the fact is he doesnt like the eberron setting, if this were forgotten realms he may be singing a different tune, because he may have stuck it out longer just because of the nostalgia, who knows?

[Denssor]

The game is based around grouping? Really? Is that why every instance has a ticker that says "SOLO"? I was under the impression DDO was trying to appeal to all types of players here (and I happen to be the solo'er).

Try finding a "solo" option on a level 7 or higher quest. To save you some time, all quest above level 7 are party or raid only. So DDO is in fact a group based MMO.

On a side note, you can't judge a game only going to level 2.2. And you said it was hard to rank up? people are capping toons in 10 days, so don't be saying it's hard to rank/level up.

Personally I hate most of those Korthos quest, and the Harbor quest get real annoying after awhile. Once you get a toon up to around level 8, 9, 10, and start raiding, and doing some of the tougher quest that have multiple strategies to complete the quest, I think you'll have more fun. But that's just me, everyone has said it and everyone already knows it, you came in with a certin mindset and didn't let it go.

Also, you should try other classes, some classes have other abilities that might suit your play style more. You can experiment with other feats, skills, playing around with your stats, all of those will change your build which can change the way you play him.

[CrimsonEagle]

I think the big problem is that anything that is written in a negative light by those who, for their own reasons, do not like a given game are seen as a threat.

People are afraid, justifiable or not, that others who may actually like the game, after reading your words, may not even give it a chance.

How much influence you would actually have...no idea. Could be insignificant, or it could be a huge impact.

I will never fault someone for not liking a game because....well....its a game. We enter these virtual little worlds to pass time and enjoy ourselves. We really have to find our own thing.

Real life example.

I love golf. Love it.

Many people do not get it. Think I'm crazy for getting so much enjoyment out of chasing a white ball all over the place...(half the time in the woods).

I can not force those who don't see what I see, to see what I see. Its just impossible.

Thing is, if someone refused to come to the course with me solely due to the words of another, well then they would never know if they would enjoy it or not.

Will your words influence someone away from a game that you don't like, for whatever reason, when there are many who do like the game and would really like to see it grow? Will a person not even give it a chance because of your words alone?

Regardless. It is what it is:).

I think you have handled yourself very well. I may not agree with you, lol, but I can respect you.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do. In the end, none of this is really what matters. They are games.

Crimson.

[AgamemnonV1]

You "wanted" to like those games, yet you realy don't seem to "want" to like DDO. DOn't get me wrong, I was the same way for years. I ended my account 30 days after buying the game when it released. But I came back with a open mind. Can you say the same?
Yes. I wasn't going to come back to DDO at all until a few people said it had improved. To me, for what I wanted to change, it hasn't. How exactly is that wrong again?


Also, on a personal note, Agamemnon was a prick. Even examining Homers Illiad shows that Homer thought the man a ******. His Wife was a Priestess of Hera, which the male driven Greeks hated. Which also explained why she had "consorts" helping her sacrifice her husband in a attempt to reclaim the Female dominance thier land had been under before the "Zues" worshippers over ran it.
...Uh, the tale of House Atreus is that of tragedy, as Aeschylus's plays made quite obvious. Clytemnestra was never politically motivated to kill Agamemnon; it was out of spite and hate that she did it. I mean, you don't exactly lose your daughter to Artemis when your husband is in the process of trying to sacrifice her and then still expect to sit down and have a quiet meal after it all, do you? The second bout to Agamemnon, and as Aeschylus also made clear, is that his anger would get the best of him and lead many to prejudge him. Even in the Iliad, Homer paints Agamemnon in a positive light; he constantly fights out on the battlefield, taking down many foes, and has a sense of code and honor and respect (which is why he and Achilles do not get along, considering Achilles has the biggest God complex known to the Greeks). That's painfully clear even after Agamemnon offers him Brieses in return to come and fight; Achilles is not interested, rather letting countless Greeks die by Zeus's trickery when he visits Agamemnon in a dream to fool him.

Keep in mind all Greeks like to boast large tales of arrogance and show bouts of anger; that was the epitome of masculinity of the time, and also why so many of the stories were tragic. Just yell at the sea and see how long it takes you to get back home.


Lastly, if you dislike every game except LotrO (did you make a toon nammed Legololz?) then stay far away from WAR. WAR is HEAVY PvP with almost no PvE content, a bad physics engine, horrible UI, and choppy graphics. Good luck.
That was cute. Was that your attempt at sarcasm? No, my character* (they are not cartoons) name is lore-appropriate, considering I enjoy the books very much and I love the lore to LotR. Probably another reason why I enjoy LotRO, considering it's so lore-oriented. Keep in mind I said Warhammer 40K, not the current Warhammer MMO that is out. That was a hint; I like sci-fi MMOs. I've been involved in Stargate Worlds testing since early friends and family testing back in May of 2008. And if there's ever a Dune MMO you'd find me signing up for early alpha testing too. This, of course, excludes Star Trek and Star Wars MMOs. I do not either of those universes.


i think the main thing is feeling a connection with your characters and the world you are playing in , if its all just numbers and bad guys and xp then you loose interest.
Exactly. This is what I meant by feeling bored in DDO. I never felt like my character was making a connection to the world. I step out of a cellar unknown to people in town and they're all entrusting me with important tasks (protect this crystal because it's the last crystal in town to protect for instance) and each task seemed more important than the next. This is why I like the quest chains in LotRO. The first quests start you off with gaining the trust of an NPC or building confidence in them to entrust you with more difficult tasks (this is more apparent in the Book quests).

Another issue to it is that I just couldn't find myself, again, trying to role play in DDO (yes, I'm a role player too). Again, the Eberron campaign...I have zero interest in it and all knowledge I have about D&D campaigns is within the Forgotten Realms.


Try finding a "solo" option on a level 7 or higher quest. To save you some time, all quest above level 7 are party or raid only. So DDO is in fact a group based MMO.

On a side note, you can't judge a game only going to level 2.2. And you said it was hard to rank up? people are capping toons in 10 days, so don't be saying it's hard to rank/level up.

Personally I hate most of those Korthos quest, and the Harbor quest get real annoying after awhile. Once you get a toon up to around level 8, 9, 10, and start raiding, and doing some of the tougher quest that have multiple strategies to complete the quest, I think you'll have more fun. But that's just me, everyone has said it and everyone already knows it, you came in with a certin mindset and didn't let it go.

Also, you should try other classes, some classes have other abilities that might suit your play style more. You can experiment with other feats, skills, playing around with your stats, all of those will change your build which can change the way you play him.
Please read the beginning of this thread. I said I'm not falling victim to such excuses as to when the game should start being fun or how the game is billed to be in the later stages. I am not everyone else, I'm not going to be spending 14 hours a day playing the game to "cap a toon" in ten days. I'm a casual, solo, role player. That's my play style.


I think you have handled yourself very well. I may not agree with you, lol, but I can respect you.
Likewise. Hopefully 2009 will be a better year.

[Gelandor]

It also seems to me that you made up your mind before you even gave it a real try. What did you run, 4 lowbie quests?


Ah, I see, because I've clearly written a review on DDO, right?

I hope this isn't how you always take criticism. I wonder how you make it in the real world when you get a C on a term paper. "Well, I'm sorry you saw it that way, professor, but it seems your predetermined decision on your research has led you to be biased against my paper. Perhaps you should be a cop instead." Aristotle is rolling in his grave right now....

Well, if I got a C on my term paper, but the professor only read the first paragraph, then yea, I would complain.

BTW Gratz on making Rank 3.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Ah, I see, because I've clearly written a review on DDO, right?

I hope this isn't how you always take criticism. I wonder how you make it in the real world when you get a C on a term paper. "Well, I'm sorry you saw it that way, professor, but it seems your predetermined decision on your research has led you to be biased against my paper. Perhaps you should be a cop instead." Aristotle is rolling in his grave right now.

What does it matter what reviews you have written? You write reviews, you obviously dont review things before you write them...what sense does that make? It puts serious doubt in my mind for any review I read of yours in the future. In fact I cant take any review seriously that you write. You're reviewing nothing.

If my professor looked at the 100 page book I had writen, read the first line and failed me, spouting BS about things he doesnt know yeah, **** right Id be ****ed.

At least we agree the Greek dudes turning in his grave...

[Gelandor]

...If my professor looked at the 100 page book I had writen, read the first line and failed me, spouting BS about things he doesnt know yeah, **** right Id be ****ed....

Hey I just said that. :)

[Kanamycin]

so if your still reading this AgamemnonV1 i think what alot of people are trying to say is, the most enjoyable part of this game is not something you can fully experience in the tutorial , the grouping system and the players in this game is what truly set it apart and if you are used to one style of mmo then it takes a little geting used to.
this game is made to be a grouping game the same way pnp is a grouping game, have you ever played pnp with just you and a dm ? if so was it the same as playing with your regular group? well in the same way this game becomes more enjoyable in a group setting. so if you ever decide to play a little more then shoot me a pm , id be more than happy to quest with you

[cappuccino]

Ok first off as the rabid post of your thread/review of games of 2008 OP sorry I have not been around on my server (thelanis) if you went there.

Question OP what server did you join?


as moorewr said DDO is a "group" game, meaning that any quest done is built to the standard that 4 members are part of that group and are of different classes.

So not grouping means to me (the rabid one) you never game the game a fair test.

therefore, as much as your postings here merit attention, they are not a true test of the game, therefore as I challenged in your review a "spin doctoring" of facts that on their own are true, but extrapolated as a true overall view is false.


Therefore my orginial proposal of a true test of DDO was not accepted since you came in and tried it for what?

I posted in your thread the first time 3 days ago (**** where does time go?)

You opened (reopened) an account how long ago and how much time did you play? (funny noone so far has asked how many game hours did he try if for)


will await your replies (if you bother) and will copy it to the originial (non DDO) thread.


If little time, I will say your test is invalid........and without grouping (as how the game is built and explained if you ever read the DDO manual....or played a PNP D&D game - after all there is a minimum of 2 one being DM and one the player)...that being said....my original theory of what kind of person you are in the other forum original thread is accurate....contact me if you wish to try again :)

[Uska]

Sorry but if it was the realms I wouldnt like it at all and I really think most true realms fans(I am not a fan of the better they were forgotten realms) wouldnt be satisfied because turbine would have gotten this or that wrong, like ddo really has nothing to do with where it is I belive and all to do with the style of the game either you like it or you like something more like wow most likely.

[DoctorWhofan]

trissacoldrake here.

I think you should have slid into the game withouts knowing. That was good. objectiveness is good. HOWEVER. I gave LotRO about 40 hours to realise there was NO ONE around at low levels. I gave WoW 40 days.

you gave DDO 8 hours? Ok, I undestand about not forcing fun, but I hate the fedex/10 yeti heads quests KNOWING there might be something better than that later. DIspline is a good thing. I hate cleaning my house. It isn't FUN. But Cooking is, but I cannot do it unless the kitchen is clean. Cooking isn't fun for everyone, but people can try and the worse they can say is they hve a clean kitchen.

THe game is SO MUCH MORE than what you experianced. I have to agree, though most did not explain the reasons why, that you came here with a bias opinion.

To expect the game to be like PnP is rather lofty expectations.

So. If you want to try again, and to get pass the low level nonsense, then do it. USE thetools that Turbine has provided: Join a group on the LFM, use general chat, be openminded that maybe even if DDOisn't still to your liking, you have gave the game a more of a chance (I know cliche) and you have experianced the game better.

Solo was added for people who wanted solo quests and not group with anyone. It disappears around level 6-7.

[moorewr]

The game is based around grouping? Really? Is that why every instance has a ticker that says "SOLO"? I was under the impression DDO was trying to appeal to all types of players here (and I happen to be the solo'er).

If you'd joined a group your answer would have more credibility.

Yes, there's a solo mode in low level quests, and yes, the game is trying to help soloists with that and with hirelings. To say that that means this is not primarily, essentially, a grouping-based game really misses the point.

[Laith]

i don't get why you all are giving AgamemnonV1 such a hard time. He gave pretty good feedback, and he honestly tried the game, even if only until his patience wore out.

if i'm not having fun in a game after 2-5 hours, i'm turning it off. Some people might be willing to suffer to try a game, but i don't see the big payoff.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

i don't get why you all are giving AgamemnonV1 such a hard time.

if i'm not having fun in a game after 2-5 hours, i'm turning it off.
Anyone that says 40 hours must be given to "try an MMO" is just kidding themselves. If you didn't have fun fairly quickly, you wouldn't be here either.

Do you write reviews for MMO's?

[Borror0]

Turbine take note! The new no tell/no reply policy is hurting trial players. His case is surely far from unique.
And people laughed at me when I said removing /tell from trials was a bad thing...:rolleyes:

[moorewr]

i don't get why you all are giving AgamemnonV1 such a hard time.

if i'm not having fun in a game after 2-5 hours, i'm turning it off. Some people might be willing to suffer to try a game, but i don't see the big payoff.


Do you write reviews for MMO's?

What's funny is all he did was fail to mention DDO in an article about failed MMOs. For some reason or other this generated a demand that he try it out. Tis to laugh. :rolleyes:

Here's the article.. and many comments by DDO players:
http://hellforge.gameriot.com/blogs/Caveat-Emptor/The-MMO-Crash-of-2008

He deserves credit for following through.. sort of.. on trying it again. As far as I am concerned he's 100% free not to like it.

[Aspenor]

And people laughed at me when I said removing /tell from trials was a bad thing...:rolleyes:

I said the same thing, and the ZOMG PLAT FARMERZ crowd acted like I was selling w/p rapiers on the forums.

If the guy doesn't like the game, he doesn't like it. I don't like the MMO's that he likes, so that makes it pretty much a wash.

[Laith]

Do you write reviews for MMO's?firstly, he wasn't being payed for this one. People do all sorts of things they don't enjoy for money, that includes giving a complete review.

after giving the game 8 hours worth of chances, he came to our turf to give his feedback. that's all.

[moonprophet]

I can understand if you don't like the game. What I don't understand is why you feel the need to tell us about and then stick around on the forums acting the troll. If you don't want to be here, why are you still here?

[Laith]

I can understand if you don't like the game. What I don't understand is why you feel the need to tell us about and then stick around on the forums acting the troll. If you don't want to be here, why are you still here?yeah, leave!
...and take everyone else i disagree with along with you, for they are clearly trolls! :p

[moorewr]

I can understand if you don't like the game. What I don't understand is why you feel the need to tell us about and then stick around on the forums acting the troll. If you don't want to be here, why are you still here?

Again, he promised to come try the game, and this was his (admittedly boorish) way of giving us feedback. He's being awfully rude, but then a couple DDO fans were pretty crass on his turf, with very little provocation.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

firstly, he wasn't being payed for this one. People do all sorts of things they don't enjoy for money, that includes giving a complete review.

after giving the game 8 hours worth of chances, he came to our turf to give his feedback. that's all.

Maybe I expected more from someone in his line...

But yes, people are free to dislike anything they like....I think.

[akla_thornfist]

I can understand if you don't like the game. What I don't understand is why you feel the need to tell us about and then stick around on the forums acting the troll. If you don't want to be here, why are you still here?

oh cmon now he was doing what we asked him to do and that was come and try the game again, he dont like it so let him go no need to bash the guy. im glad that he followed through lets face it this game is not for everyone and never will be.

[Zenako]

He has one point I would agree with. On the quest settings with the S/N/H/E options, the use of the term Solo for the first can be misleading, as he saw taking it to mean the game is designed for solo play. Perhaps the S should be changed from SOLO to SIMPLE setting and that might help avoid this misconception.

Frankly when running a character by them selves I never use the S setting, it is too SIMPLE.

As for the Island and the turtorials, the concept of grouping is embedded right from the start. You arrive washed up on the shore. You find a way to some others and join a GROUP of 3 others to make a PARTY of 4 that works your way thru the first quest. The NPC's are of varied skills, Rogue, Cleric and Warrior/Caster (IIRC). Grouping is presented as the way to overcome foes.

Many of the NPC's in Korthos advise you to find allies to help you in the quests, and even the penultimate quest on the Island - Misery's Peak, you end up joining forces with the NPC's in the First cave to lure the dragon away. (They are the Dragon Bait, you are the tool.)

OP, the point many of the replies have tried to make is that while you tried a small portion of the beginning of the game, you passed judgement on it as a whole. You included some statements that are just simply incorrect, based on not understanding the rules of the game. It does not seem that you actually read the manual or gave the rules any real thought, just fired up an account and never bothered to RTFM (as my wife who once was in Tech Support for a ADA compiler firm used to tell me about some users all the time).

As someone mentioned golf (a passion of mine too), your trial attempt with the game was about like someone hitting putts on the practice green, knocking a few balls down the driving range, and then concluding that the game of golf is a solo enterprise, unrewarding and hard to figure out why anyone would like it. If you had played all 18 holes, and then concluded that the game did not suit you, that would be a more fair trial. (and in this context, 18 holes does not mean cap a character, but actually get to some decent level in the marketplace...)

[Aspenor]

True, Zen.

THE OP said he was playing on solo, and a pure wizard with an 8 strength can do solo without casting spells.

He definitely didn't experience the game the way it is supposed to be experienced, in a group. He probably would have had more fun if he had solo'd on normal, instead of on solo (solo is a joke, one hitting every monster is ridiculous).

[tihocan]

Agamemnon, I'm glad you gave it a try. Sure, a bit disappointed you didn't like it, but I understand your reasons and have no problem with them.

Yes, most quests are about going through a number of fights, a few puzzles here and there, and a more challenging boss fight. There are a few exceptions but this is the traditional quest template, and it's definitely repetitive.

Also, the inability to reply to /tell on trial is awfully stupid and I still don't understand why it hasn't been made a priority fix :mad:

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that what I enjoy most in DDO really can't be experienced in 8h of solo play. These are:

- freedom in character development: making your own builds that are not the same as everyone else's is a lot of fun

- grouping: I never solo unless I have RL constraints that prevent me from grouping. Interactions between party members are very important in DDO, and I'm not speaking of casual voice chat, but about how each class contributes to the quest. Sure, at L2 you can zerg through pretty much any quest leaving the group behind, but later on group dynamics are much more important, and it's where DDO gameplay really shines IMHO. Problem is they can't really showcase this at low level, for various reasons (a game too difficult to solo turns new players off, new players don't really understand the game dynamics anyway, ...)

- learning quests. When you choose to play a capped character instead of rolling up a new one, it becomes all about loot. Then you need to learn these challenging high level quests to be able to complete them on a regular basis. I find it quite interesting to try new tactics, and learn from others' tactics. Adapting to new party make-ups to complete a quest can also be a lot of fun. Even powergamers who run in guild groups and can beat anything without much problem can do this because they learned tactics that worked, and know exactly what to do as a team. It's not just a couple people with uber gear smashing everything in their way while watching a TV show...

Hmm, well, I guess I just wanted to point you towards some of the good things in DDO you may not have got a chance to experience. Not that I think it'll change anything, but at least you'll have heard about them :)

[transtemporal]

First off, the game is not "up front" about its shallow game mechanics. One would actually expect far more from a game that provides the sophisticated physics and art rendering that DDO provides, not less sophistication than many text-based MUDs and/or tabletop campaigns.

Second, the definition of PnP D&D in the quote above reflects a marked lack of real roleplaying game experience. If someone doesn't really understand what is being discussed, it's often best to avoid interjection, or possibly ask questions, instead of trying to appear like an expert. Otherwise it can just really be... embarassing... for everyone.

Raithe, why are you attacking me (and in a particularly snide way, I might add)? I've been playing DnD since the red basic box, so I think I have at least some thoughts to offer on the subject. But thanks for the save I guess, wouldn't want to be embarrassed. *phew*

[Dirac]

I don't suppose anyone could help me out here. People seem to be referring to this person as some sort of reviewer or journalist. Who is he? What is his position and affiliation? Is he just some random guy that got roped into trying DDO?

I think it is cool he came to try it after the discussion on his own blog. He does not care for Eberron and strongly prefers solo play. It is perfectly reasonable that this game isn't going to do it for him.

[moorewr]

Here's the article.. and many comments by DDO players:
http://hellforge.gameriot.com/blogs/Caveat-Emptor/The-MMO-Crash-of-2008

[AgamemnonV1]

What does it matter what reviews you have written? You write reviews, you obviously dont review things before you write them...what sense does that make? It puts serious doubt in my mind for any review I read of yours in the future. In fact I cant take any review seriously that you write. You're reviewing nothing.

If my professor looked at the 100 page book I had writen, read the first line and failed me, spouting BS about things he doesnt know yeah, **** right Id be ****ed.
Considering I haven't reviewed DDO in any article I'd kindly ask you to stop spouting nonsense as well.


i don't get why you all are giving AgamemnonV1 such a hard time. He gave pretty good feedback, and he honestly tried the game, even if only until his patience wore out.

if i'm not having fun in a game after 2-5 hours, i'm turning it off. Some people might be willing to suffer to try a game, but i don't see the big payoff.
No no, that sounds like too much of a logical approach. We won't have any of that logic around here.


What's funny is all he did was fail to mention DDO in an article about failed MMOs. For some reason or other this generated a demand that he try it out. Tis to laugh. :rolleyes:

Here's the article.. and many comments by DDO players:
http://hellforge.gameriot.com/blogs/Caveat-Emptor/The-MMO-Crash-of-2008

He deserves credit for following through.. sort of.. on trying it again. As far as I am concerned he's 100% free not to like it.
I'm beginning to think more and more that my original view point on long-established MMOs with small communities mostly contain those that would worship the ground the game walks on. As Moorewr pointed out, all I ever said about DDO is that it had a small and diminishing community, and then the lot of you jumped in and added 50 things I never even said. Then you invited me to play the game, but I didn't like it, so what's next? "You suck! You didn't group! You didn't play the game!" And you wonder why new players aren't coming around here. If you guys are the friendly portion of the DDO community, I'd hate to see what the unfriendly portion looks like.


I can understand if you don't like the game. What I don't understand is why you feel the need to tell us about and then stick around on the forums acting the troll. If you don't want to be here, why are you still here?
Just an FYI. Anyone who actually uses the word "troll" in an argument automatically loses credibility for me. We're grown ups (I hope some of us are at least); say grown up words. I am responding to the criticism I have provided and said I would follow through on. It's not a crime. Don't like it? There are plenty of other topics for you to read and post in.


Again, he promised to come try the game, and this was his (admittedly boorish) way of giving us feedback. He's being awfully rude, but then a couple DDO fans were pretty crass on his turf, with very little provocation.
That's rich. I was obviously rude because I was the one who called out potshots and claimed that you were all ignorant and put words in your mouth, right? Oh, right, I forgot. That's actually what YOU guys did to me. "Little provocation," yeah, okay. People were real (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168753) friendly, sure.


OP, the point many of the replies have tried to make is that while you tried a small portion of the beginning of the game, you passed judgement on it as a whole.
I've done no such thing. I have said I do not like the game from the time I played it and the time I forced myself to play afterwards did not get any better. And your whole little stint about grouping would mean something if I were actually required to group with PCs and not NPCs. If you say it's group-oriented at later levels I'll take your word for it; too bad that that's actually not the sort of content I'd be crossing any time soon.

In fact, I go back to my original point. For all the people that have been raging because I didn't continue to force myself to not enjoy a game I'm not having fun in or for the people that say I need to get to a specific level to start to have fun or for the people that say I need to play a specific amount of time before I have a "say" on the matter and then claim that I'm biased, I have this to say; look in a mirror. In fact, I'm more turned off by this game now more from the community than any game feature that I didn't like. I guess everyone read my article real well.

And don't worry, Moonprophet, you're getting your wish. I have no will to return to people that obviously don't want to accept my opinion on a game I was invited by the very people to play. The single point I originally made in the comments section of my article remains true--the only point I ever made about DDO. And then when asked to give it another try, I do so, and then I provide my feedback, and what happens? What would happen in any other typical forum when you criticize (constructively I might add) someone's baby Jesus; you're badgered, put down, and insulted to a degrading level that any sort of logic you may try to apply to the situation afterwards is null because all such people involved have this burning passion of rage of fanboyism flaring within them that says, "Must ignore logic. Must proclaim why critic is wrong. Must not think coherent thoughts." It's funny how you all claim this "unfair" bias I have for DDO despite saying that I have no troubles with any of you enjoying the game, but, God forbid, if I say I don't enjoy it and someone asks me why and I list the reasons, then I'm so totally wrong and you won't quit with the insults until I've completely changed my mind.

Which won't happen. I believe that's why these are called opinions.

[CrimsonEagle]

First off, from what I have found, he did NOT write a review of DDO in his original article. It was a generalization of the state of MMO's for 2008. There was no mention of DDO.

Then, when someone wrote to ask him why there was no mention of DDO, his reply was:


I didn't because, for one, DDO is slowly dying, and second, Turbine has the vast majority of its focus on LotRO and, apparently, an unannounced project. That, and DDO has received less-than-stellar reviews. Yes, I am aware that they are still releasing content patches and that the game came out two years ago, but, unfortunately, when compared to the volume of other MMOs I listed, I do not believe it stacks up, which is the same reason why I didn't mention AC either (despite AC being one of the most influential MMOs from which other MMOs have pulled ideas from, including WoW)

To which he later addressed


I will admit, I was on my way out and I felt like every MMO player whose MMO I didn't mention was coming out of the woodwork to say, "Why didn't you mention MMO X," so my response at first wasn't the nicest. Dying was a poor choice in wording. However, I don't think anyone who reads the comments would come to deduce that they shouldn't try DDO. I know I haven't said that either.

And again


That's an interesting point of view, considering quite a number of reviews bomb AoC and there is no short supply of criticism for AoC. Keep in mind I also have made no judgment on how DDO actually plays as opposed to how it actually scored. There are differences, especially when I said I beta tested DDO and trialed it after launch, so no, that's not how I'm basing my criticism. And, as I've been repeating like a broken record, I haven't actually criticized DDO on how it plays, just the subscriber base. (Note, how it scored. Compared to other MMO's, the subscriber base does seem to be lacking. Dedicated, but lacking.)

Now, can he judge how HE feels about the game in only a few hours?

There was someone who came onto his site to speak about RuneScape.

I lasted about an hour in that game. IMO, it was the worst piece of **** I had ever seen and there is no chance that I will ever go back to it. Ever. That is how I feel about it.

Did I not give it a chance? How long should I have to play before I can judge that it is not for me? Days? Weeks? Months? After I pay?

The same could be said for the OP. How long should he play? Would level 7 to 8 be good? How about cap, or should he wait until he has capped every type of build before he decides that the game just is not for him?

What he wrote, (NOT in his article, but in a response to a DDO post) was based on, not his gaming experience, but on what limited statistics there is. He admits this just as he later states that his DDO is dying comment was a poor choice of words.

What are DDO's real statistics? No. They are not released, so the only information the the writer of this article can really base the state of the game on is what limited information that is out there and in all honesty, there is not much and its not all that good, and this was ALL that he was saying.

Did he give it an honest try? I'm actually impressed that he actually came over and tried it at all, even if it was only for a couple hours. If I played a game in the past that I didn't like for any reason, chances are I will never go back.

Basically, he played the game a bit in beta, and it was not for him. He admits this. So, to sooth the posters who defended DDO, he came back and tried it again, albeit for only a short amount of time.

The very game mechanics did not change. What makes you think he would now enjoy it?

He also at one point states that he does not like WOW. It does not fit his personal taste. Millions would disagree with his assessment and the POSTED stats and huge playerbase should attest to. Should he not state that he really does not like the game until he reaches cap there also?

He said that he, at this point in time, has found LOTRO to be to his liking. Good for him. I'm glad he has found something to his liking.

If you really want to attack someone, it should be the whoever is ultimately responsible for the marketing of this game. They have done a **** poor job. It is in fact non existent and if anything, this is the reason for the low statistics for this game.

I love this game, just as most of the players who have been here arguing in these forums for an extended period of time do. We may have differing opinions and heated arguments, but for the most part it is because of our love for this great game.

The thing is, no matter what, there are just going to be people who do not like the game, for whatever reason, just as there are many people who do not like WoW.

The difference is that WoW promoted a MASSIVE marketing campaign...MASSIVE. I think I can safely say unprecedented.

This allowed them to blanket hundreds of MILLIONS of people around the world.

Because of this, tens of MILLIONS of gamers tried it. Not all of them liked it. Many were looking for something else, but still, out of the hundreds of MILLIONS, so many people stayed with the game that it was and still is the king of the hill....by a very large margin.

We as a player base can only do so much. Those of us who have remained here for this extended beta test are all very dedicated to this game and in OUR opinion, (I can not argue with this because I agree) this IS the best game out there at this point in time. Unfortunately, OUR opinion is not supported by the statistics.

Is DDO dying? No, I don't think so. It has a pretty stable player base. Is it growing?

If it is growing, we should probably be talking about a server expansion should we not? ANY talk or even thought of server merger would indicate that this game is not growing. (I can remember a request for this not to long ago).

No talk of expansion or merger indicates that we are holding fairly steady. Although not necessarily a bad thing, it is not really a good thing either.

WE, the dedicated player base, want to see this game grow in its playerbase. In order for this to happen....to really happen, marketing is the key. IF and when they begin a marketing campaign, we have to hope that it is massive, and even if it is massive, there are still going to be people who do NOT like this game, whether they try it for an hour, a day, a week or a month.

IF they recognize the brilliance of WoW's marketing campaign and are willing/able to follow suit, I predict that DDO will explode.

It is inevitable that if marketed to millions in the correct way, some will come and leave, others will come and stay. This is the way that it works.

In closing. The OP does not like the game for whatever reason, it does not matter how long he played or what his reasons are....this game is just not for him. What he wrote on his site was based on the statistics available to the public. Since I have seen no statistical data on DDO.......although my gut disagree's with the OP, I cannot prove otherwise.

If you can...then please do.

Crimson.

[Dirac]

Here's the article.. and many comments by DDO players:
http://hellforge.gameriot.com/blogs/Caveat-Emptor/The-MMO-Crash-of-2008

Right, exactly! I apologize for not understanding how this literature works. Is hellforge or gameriot a company that he works for? Is he an actual game reviewer for someone? Is he just a random blogger? I click on his profile and all it tells me is that he is 19.

Edit: Hi Agamemnon, looks like you are still here. Welcome. Who are you?

[JayDubya]

Turbine take note! The new no tell/no reply policy is hurting trial players. His case is surely far from unique.

Indeed - the better solution is to limit (via silently discarding) the number of tells per minute for trial accounts, rather than deleting them altogether.

[IgorUnchained]

I don't suppose anyone could help me out here. People seem to be referring to this person as some sort of reviewer or journalist. Who is he? What is his position and affiliation? Is he just some random guy that got roped into trying DDO?

I think it is cool he came to try it after the discussion on his own blog. He does not care for Eberron and strongly prefers solo play. It is perfectly reasonable that this game isn't going to do it for him.


This was posted not long before your post. He reviews games.

What's funny is all he did was fail to mention DDO in an article about failed MMOs. For some reason or other this generated a demand that he try it out. Tis to laugh. :rolleyes:

Here's the article.. and many comments by DDO players:
http://hellforge.gameriot.com/blogs/Caveat-Emptor/The-MMO-Crash-of-2008

He deserves credit for following through.. sort of.. on trying it again. As far as I am concerned he's 100% free not to like it.

I read the article in question on Digg.com, so it isnt like this is some site that doesnt get any publicity.

I thank him for trying the game! I am with the rest of you that, if I hadnt spent more than a couple of hours on the game, I would have left the game. I had a month subscription to give it a chance and I was going to cancel it after the one month was done. The game was kind of fun but the people were rude and it was hard to actually PLAY the game (this was my first MMO/keyboard game). It wasnt until I met a kind Argo-nite who gave me a nice helmet and some words of advice that I decided to stick around. I had AT LEAST 40 hours invested at that point.

By the time I hit STK/Gwylans/Stormcleave, I was hooked. When I met my guildies (not until level 10 of my umpteenth re-rolled toon) did the game become what it is today....my hobby.

He didnt give it enough of a chance, he kind of missed the point of the game (soloing through to level 2 on an MMO?..then you review it?)......but I dont fault the guy for not liking the game. In fact, Im glad that he left his "DDO is dying" rant out of his article.

[Dirac]

He reviews games.

For whom? Himself, and simply post unsolicited opinions on blogs? Does he work for a magazine or something to review games? Does someone pay him? I don't mean to be dense about this, I am not familiar with any of the companies involved nor read their literature and am trying to learn more.

[IgorUnchained]

For whom? Himself and simply post unsolicited opinions on blogs? Does he work for a magazine or something to review games? Does someone pay him? I don't mean to be dense about this, I am not familiar with any of the companies involved nor read their literature and am trying to learn more.


The link to where he works is right above your post.....and the original that I quoted was less than ten above your original post asking who he is. I dont expect you to read the whole thread, but cmon....I even quoted your original question in the post that answered your question.


http://digg.com/gaming/page2
Here is the article on Digg with 971 Diggs right now....scroll down to the middle of the page.
I dont know if anyone pays him or if his blog is approved by the Center for Disease Control or whatever....but his article/site was "known" enough to make Digg, get almost a thousand Diggs, and get 330 comments ON DIGG (plus 3 pages at least on his page...plus this thread on this forum...wanna guess that there are many others on other MMO forums as well?). Who signs his check isnt as noteworthy as how many people are reading his work.

[Dirac]

The link to where he works is right above your post.....and the original that I quoted was less than ten above your original post asking who he is. I dont expect you to read the whole thread, but cmon....I even quoted your original question in the post that answered your question.

No, seriously, I read the post that was my question. You are saying Hellforge is a company and Agamemnon is paid by them to review games or at least comment on the state of video games. I appreciate you taking the time to be specific.

That was not obvious to me, but I've never been to their website before and have no idea who they are or what they do. I could not tell if he was a actual Hellforge employee, freelance writer, or just a random blogger on their website. Again, I apologize for being dense.

[moorewr]

That's rich. I was obviously rude because I was the one who called out potshots and claimed that you were all ignorant and put words in your mouth, right? Oh, right, I forgot. That's actually what YOU guys did to me. "Little provocation," yeah, okay. People were real (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168753) friendly, sure.

:confused:

I'll repeat what I just said: you did not provoke the comments you received. They were uncalled for, and I blame the handful of people who decided to take things down that road. Why make it so hard to give the devil his due?

[Thanimal]

I think OP is, perhaps indirectly, making a very legitimate criticism of DDO:

The learning curve to reach "deeply involved" is LONG. I can't imagine how long it would be if not somewhat familiar with D&D 3.x rules.

It took me roughly 4 months to really start enjoying the game. I needed to get a feel for several classes and understand the obstacles in the game well enough to be able to think about optimizing builds. And I needed to find some people who played in a similar way to me (casual feel but min-max style builder). With all those thing finally done, I am now a total addict. This is the first MMO that has truly drawn me in.

Is that really a reasonable investment of time to ask someone to put in just to see if they like it? I have to say no. The reason I stayed in is that I had some real life friends who had played a while and pulled me along. Also, my wife got into the game faster than I did, as she took to the fast-paced action quickly and didn't have my bias toward "Must ... make ... optimal ... play ... Need ... more ... time ..." :)

Honestly, I'm not that sure how much Turbine can help us on this one. Part of what makes DDO such a great game is that it actually is pretty complicated. I previously played Guild Wars, got the basic idea in about an hour, and about 2 weeks later decided there wasn't enough depth to the build system.

The way to get more people into DDO is to HELP THEM IN -- not to criticize people who don't like it in the first 4 hours, because most people actually won't. Seek out newbies and run with them.

Oh, wait: Turbine can help us out: Get rid of that ridiculous restriction that you can only group with people who have the same did-the-tutorial-ness. If you don't get in with some good people quickly, there's no way you're gonna hang around. I think that's pretty obvious.

I'd even go so far as to suggest some in-game "hand-holders" who keep making new characters (or simply don't get XP) and are available to join with newbies and help them find the way THEY enjoy the game. I think it's insane to think trials are going to be converted to subscribers at more than a TINY rate without some PEOPLE helping them along.

Let's take these criticisms to heart folks, and see what we can do about them; NOT bash the critical!!

[AgamemnonV1]

No, seriously, I read the post that was my question. You are saying Hellforge is a company and Agamemnon is paid by them to review games or at least comment on the state of video games. I appreciate you taking the time to be specific.
Just posting to clarify this. Gameriot is a blogging site with different communities. The one I happen to have made my home in is the Diablo III community known as Hellforge. We are all free writers; we're not hired or anything like that. However, Gameriot does hold a cash prize contest for those that get the most hits to their blog. I never actually thought my article would get so many Diggs or it be featured on Kotaku or Massively, but it did. Not sure how, but I guess that's just the luck of the draw I suppose. If you'd like to continue this discussion or talk to me further, you can find me at my blog.


EDIT:

:confused:

I'll repeat what I just said: you did not provoke the comments you received. They were uncalled for, and I blame the handful of people who decided to take things down that road. Why make it so hard to give the devil his due?
Sorry, I misread that bit. In retrospect the comment still holds true for the rest of the group.

[Dirac]

http://digg.com/gaming/page2
Here is the article on Digg with 971 Diggs right now....scroll down to the middle of the page.
I dont know if anyone pays him or if his blog is approved by the Center for Disease Control or whatever....but his article/site was "known" enough to make Digg, get almost a thousand Diggs, and get 330 comments ON DIGG (plus 3 pages at least on his page...plus this thread on this forum...wanna guess that there are many others on other MMO forums as well?). Who signs his check isnt as noteworthy as how many people are reading his work.

Yes and no. Visibility is visibility as you say and is important regardless who is writing. However, it dramatically affects my response to a post such as his knowing if he is a professional or just a random unpaid blogger like all of us here.

[Dirac]

Just posting to clarify this. Gameriot is a blogging site with different communities. The one I happen to have made my home in is the Diablo III community known as Hellforge. We are all free writers; we're not hired or anything like that. However, Gameriot does hold a cash prize contest for those that get the most hits to their blog. I never actually thought my article would get so many Diggs or it be featured on Kotaku or Massively, but it did. Not sure how, but I guess that's just the luck of the draw I suppose. If you'd like to continue this discussion or talk to me further, you can find me at my blog.

Thanks for the response. I think I get it: not paid per se, but rewarded for writing engaging blogs. You are most likely being modest about being lucky; it seems to me the article was very engaging to many people. Again, I think it is neat that you came to try DDO again. Best of luck in your gaming and writing.

[Aesop]

Out of Morbid Curiosity what sort of games have held your Enthrall and Interest?

What did it for you in the past?

Specifically what MMOs?

Aesop

[IgorUnchained]

Out of Morbid Curiosity what sort of games have held your Enthrall and Interest?

What did it for you in the past?

Specifically what MMOs?

Aesop

He says in the article that LOTRO, while flawed, was the one that held his interest.

[Aesop]

He says in the article that LOTRO, while flawed, was the one that held his interest.

OK LotRO... but are there any others?

I myself hate that style of combat and quickly get bored to tears... I'm just trying to get a better grasp of what he actually enjoys and why.

I've played a number of MMOs over the last few years and for the most part they get pretty boring to me. In fact the only one that has held my interest for more than 9months... and that one was all about a small group of players I played with... is DDO.

I mean he says he hates Eberron and love FR... I feel FR is way way over rated and find Eberron a bit of a breath of fresh air. Almost an uncharted territory that leaves a lot of open places to create new stories. Apparently the books aren't bad either... though I haven't read them myself.

Aesop

[transtemporal]

Come on Aga, you know very well that logic doesn't apply to the internet. Of course forumites are going to attack you if you don't give their game anything but glowing praise (and it should be noted that not all of responses were unconstructive). If you'd said WoW wasn't for you, the player base would've come down on you like a ton of bricks too.

Anyway, I for one, respect that you fronted up to the forums and gave us your earnest opinion and attempted to address some of the questions. Look foward to reading your column in future.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

It's still just too boring. Right from the beginning intro video to the starter instance, I'm too disinterested to care. Again, I don't know if that's just a problem with me having zero interest in Eberron, but it seemed like it was a whole lot of waiting to exhale--waiting for something to happen. And, at times, that moment would come, but then it would quickly leave, or it was rather anti-climatic. The lack of any sort of music to compliment this also doesn't help either; I was honestly fighting off boredom last night as I went through the starter instance.

And, just as I remember, getting to Stormreach is like being tossed off a cliff. No real sense of direction afterwards and not enough interest to spend time trying to get back on the horse to care. Believe me, I enjoy D&D, but I still think this is not the best adaptation to it. The solo instances of the narrator filling the role as the DM is still a nice touch, but not when every single instance includes "kill x baddies, solve puzzle, kill boss, end." Maybe that does switch up after the 20th quest, but, like I said, it just didn't keep me interested enough for me to continue on.

I think I quoted three sentences that made me, shall we say, jumpy.
The OP was never gonna give the game a chance. Period.

But thats ok...there are other games out there...WoW, LoTR both spring to mind...

Mmmhmmm.

[query]

You didn't have to come back, but you kept your options and possibilities open, and for that, I thank you.

Secondly, I would like to apologize for all those people who were rude or twisted your words in their troll-like fashion. It was insulting and I'd like to say many of us even in the forums are NOT that....just like they claimed you had a pre-decided agenda, they had a pre-decided flame to fire at you. Again, I am sorry at the treatment you got.


Finally, one of ther things that differs from other games is the dynamic of GROUPING OVER SOLOING making it EASIER (not harder) to get DDO missions done. But due to the Korthos "stage" thing at the beginning as well as some of the pug atitudes sometimes, I can see where that could also go awary.


Should you ever return to give it a try, do try grouping with others, and if need be, let some of us know if we can be available to help you.


All that said, thank you for at least trying it out beyond beta. I'm sure you can see the options are greatly increased, and we are currrently anything but a dying population (while no specifics were released, it was mentioned the base did increase post mod 8.)


Thank you for not simply dismissing us as a dying cult, and sorry for any of the smug arrogent people deciding how you played before playing.


May you return one day, and may Turbine give you a proper full account if you are reviewing.

[IgorUnchained]

Come on Aga, you know very well that logic doesn't apply to the internet. Of course forumites are going to attack you if you don't give their game anything but glowing praise (and it should be noted that not all of responses were unconstructive). If you'd said WoW wasn't for you, the player base would've come down on you like a ton of bricks too.

Anyway, I for one, respect that you fronted up to the forums and gave us your earnest opinion and attempted to address some of the questions. Look foward to reading your column in future.

That is where Im coming from as well. I think is argument is great but his testing was bad. He didnt say anything about DDO in his article though....just in the comments section....so it wasnt like he was setting up a public argument over it. After getting griefed in his comments, he tried the game again, albeit in a way that I wouldnt suggest to anyone, and gave feedback. That is more than I am likely to give a game that I didnt like the first time and that Im not using as a subject of my article.
I thought the article itself was well written and I learned alot that I didnt know.....who cares if I disagree with him? It is an article!

Here is another article that he wrote that I just read. I agree with the bulk of it....it is well written...it gives a Devil's Advocate angle.....I thought it was a great read.
http://hellforge.gameriot.com/blogs/Caveat-Emptor/The-Dilemma-of-Gold-Farmers-in-MMOs
I was actually struck by the amount of objectivity to it....I dont see this guy as someone who jumps to conclusions...much.

I chose DDO over WoW without ever playing either game. I saw both played by friends and I made a very easy choice...that has paid off in spades. I sure as hell didnt go through 2 trial WoW accounts and the Grand Inquisition on the WoW forums before I figured it out.

[Aesop]

That is where Im coming from as well. I think is argument is great but his testing was bad. He didnt say anything about DDO in his article though....just in the comments section....so it wasnt like he was setting up a public argument over it. After getting griefed in his comments, he tried the game again, albeit in a way that I wouldnt suggest to anyone, and gave feedback. That is more than I am likely to give a game that I didnt like the first time and that Im not using as a subject of my article.
I thought the article itself was well written and I learned alot that I didnt know.....who cares if I disagree with him? It is an article!

Here is another article that he wrote that I just read. I agree with the bulk of it....it is well written...it gives a Devil's Advocate angle.....I thought it was a great read.
http://hellforge.gameriot.com/blogs/Caveat-Emptor/The-Dilemma-of-Gold-Farmers-in-MMOs
I was actually struck by the amount of objectivity to it....I dont see this guy as someone who jumps to conclusions...much.

I chose DDO over WoW without ever playing either game. I saw both played by friends and I made a very easy choice...that has paid off in spades. I sure as hell didnt go through 2 trial WoW accounts and the Grand Inquisition on the WoW forums before I figured it out.



I suggest playing WoW for a while. I did for 9 months. It was fun at first but the grind made my head hurt a lot. I would have quit after 3 months had I not joined a guild with a really cool leader. It was my one and only guild ever. I never did find out what happened to our leader. He was living in New Orleans during Katrina and we never found out. After that the game just dragged for a while and eventually the grind killed it for me. Thankfully I got into the DDO beta and I've been here ever since.

Aesop

[IgorUnchained]

I suggest playing WoW for a while. I did for 9 months. It was fun at first but the grind made my head hurt a lot. I would have quit after 3 months had I not joined a guild with a really cool leader. It was my one and only guild ever. I never did find out what happened to our leader. He was living in New Orleans during Katrina and we never found out. After that the game just dragged for a while and eventually the grind killed it for me. Thankfully I got into the DDO beta and I've been here ever since.

Aesop

I havent ruled it out in the future, but it would be my love of/experience with DDO that would give me the faith in MMOs to try WoW. I didnt like the combat system of WoW and I thought that the character creation process was lacking. I was blown away that DDO had so few races and classes (from my limited memory of D&D) offered, but I loved the combat system and the character creation process (leveling process as well).
With all that involved, it was still a kind friend and a great guild that kept me playing DDO. Im sure that would make all the difference in other MMOs as well.

[Thailand_Dan]

Along the lines of a previous poster, maybe we can learn something, (and Turbine as well, can learn something) about the new player experience. Turbine obviously made an effort in the last mod to make DDO more newbee friendly.

I've played over a year, and still see problems with the new player experience. Most min/max builds (which many experienced players prefer) require either research on the forums, or vast knowledge of D&D rules. Having no prior experience with PnP, I was lost with picking feats, and using action points and skill points, when I first started. I even let the computer allocate my STR, CHA, WIS, etc., scores when I first started out.

As you can imagine, all of those characters have since been rerolled. I love the idea that I can now roll a solid build, without choosing any of my stats, by letting the trainer choose for me. Good idea! At anytime, I can go my own way, or even make changes (to feats and enhancements, anyway), when I want.

Mentioned in a previous post, the idea of a newb friendly instructor is excellent. I am sure there would be tons from the forums who would volunteer. Give them a pulsating purple outline (or some other conspicuous sign) when they want to be on duty in the harbor/Korthos, and tell new players to look for them, as they are here to help them.

If more were needed, offer a 1-month subscription for every 20 quests completed/X amount of hours logged in, with new subscribers, or some sort of incentive system, although I doubt this would even be neccessary.

Having just leveled up a character (to 5, so far), with a horrible Internet connection ATM, I have had to solo a lot of content, and it has been quite a grind. I hate subjecting groups to disconnects, so I often run solo, carrying and using tons of resources. The resource drain is no big deal, but it does get boring. Grouping is the key to this game, so make it easier for new people to group. Get rid of the pre-Misery's Peak and Post-Misery's Peak instance. Who ever pitched that idea must have been an artisit and didn't understand the impact it would have on new people finding groups.

In summary, maybe the OP offers a new player perspective we should all take note of, learn from, and adjust to, instead of getting into pointless ***-for-tat arguments.

[Arianrhod]

Thanks to the OP for giving the game another try; sorry to hear it still wasn't his thing. I am curious about one point - he mentions dissatisfaction with the quests in that there is generally only one path to completion (unlike "classic" D&D). I'm curious how many MMOs (not single-player games like NWN) do allow multiple paths to quest completion? From what I've read, DDO originally had a bit more freedom in this area than many MMOs (the ability to sneak past things, or run through to the objective, instead of fighting, for instance), but sadly many of these options got removed over time due to (perceived?) exploits.

As for the alignment issue (it not feeling like D&D due to the lack of an evil option) .... well, there are plenty of DMs who don't allow evil PCs, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one ... to me, it would feel less like D&D with "evil" player characters running around. More like, say... WoW ;)

[Uska]

Thanks to the OP for giving the game another try; sorry to hear it still wasn't his thing. I am curious about one point - he mentions dissatisfaction with the quests in that there is generally only one path to completion (unlike "classic" D&D). I'm curious how many MMOs (not single-player games like NWN) do allow multiple paths to quest completion? From what I've read, DDO originally had a bit more freedom in this area than many MMOs (the ability to sneak past things, or run through to the objective, instead of fighting, for instance), but sadly many of these options got removed over time due to (perceived?) exploits.

As for the alignment issue (it not feeling like D&D due to the lack of an evil option) .... well, there are plenty of DMs who don't allow evil PCs, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one ... to me, it would feel less like D&D with "evil" player characters running around. More like, say... WoW ;)

I dont really any mmo that really has more then one way to finish a quest and you still kind of can in ddo some all you really have to do is fill some objectives without optionals and others you have to do everything almost, and I feel the same way about alignment we dont allow evil characters in our games and have had only one player quit showing up in our current group of people who have been together now for 15 years.

[moorewr]

I dont really any mmo that really has more then one way to finish a quest and you still kind of can in ddo some all you really have to do is fill some objectives without optionals and others you have to do everything almost, and I feel the same way about alignment we dont allow evil characters in our games and have had only one player quit showing up in our current group of people who have been together now for 15 years.

I wish DDO had a few quest lines where you had more than one possible outcome along the way.. for example, failing would mean the quest-giver would give you a different next quest than if you succeeded, allowing for extra story-lines in a given set of dungeon designs.

It is true that there are less places where you can circumvent fights, etc now than there should be.. and that the devs have a tendency to look at things like the jump-off spot in Running with the Devils as a problem instead of creative problem-solving. Too bad.

[Borror0]

I'm from The Netherlands and I wish i could write better English so you guys can understand me better, but i hope you get the point :)
Your English is fine. The format is a bit hard to read, but your grammar is easily understandable.

EDIT: Ninja!

[Blackice09]

First off, i have been playing DDO for maybe 10 hours (still experiencing the trial). Ive read almost everything in this thread and i want to share my point of view with you guys.
WoW-like games rely on a certain way to make the game addictive. The more you play the better you are, and this is always true and it never stops (for most people).
This is why they made expansions, to please the people who have gathered everything and cant really do new things. They can start trying to get from lvl 70 to 80 in exactly the same way as they did when they were lvl 20. And in the end, you feel like youve accomplished nothing (this is what happened to me).
This psychological addiction factor works for almost everyone, partly because its a new thing, thats why these game are so well-played.
I cant really explain it but it seems to work for them.
I just hope DDO is different and i will be able to feel like im enjoying it because its really a good game and not because i just played 12 hours. I mean sometimes i played an instance in WoW for 3-4 hours which wasnt challenging at all just to find out i didnt get anything at all and wasted a few more hours of my life.
The beauty of MMOs are the competition and the teamwork. So you will want to show off. But it shouldnt be about showing others that you have played 1000s of hours getting uber-items and finding the best build. But you will want to show off how well you play and try different things.
And by the way, all of the virtual D&D games i played (TOEE, NWN, NWN2, Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale etc.) were not nearly as fun in the first 2-3 levels as they were in the later levels. You get more choices and you will need to do more thinking. It gets more complicated and to me, more fun.
Adding that, i want to say the beauty of things can only be discovered by having an open mind. Ofcourse its also possible that someone really detests the game, but thats personal and whatever reasons that person has for detesting it, they dont affect me because i could be very different from that person.
This is why I do not want to read the OP's arguments why he did not like the game. I want to know what things others like about DDO and see if i like it too, in the process discovering other things i like. And in the end, when my openmindedness cant get me to like it as a whole, i might stop playing it.
Everything in life has an ugly part, even the most beautiful women. But you do not focus on the stuff you don't like when you have this women in bed, because it ruins your night.

I'm from The Netherlands and I wish i could write better English so you guys can understand me better, but i hope you get the point :)

[transtemporal]

Everything in life has an ugly part, even the most beautiful women. But you do not focus on the stuff you don't like when you have this women in bed, because it ruins your night.

I'm from The Netherlands and I wish i could write better English so you guys can understand me better, but i hope you get the point :)

Excellent analogy, lol.

Your english is fine dude, at least you use punctuation. Welcome to DDO by the way, it sounds like you'll fit right in. :)

[Oreg]

Everything in life has an ugly part, even the most beautiful women. But you do not focus on the stuff you don't like when you have this women in bed, because it ruins your night.



That may be the best response I have seen in months and could be used for over 98% of these threads.

Well Played...

[Amabel]

Agamemnon

I think if you asked those that have played the game for a while they'd all say they keep playing for the same reason - the grouping and camaraderie.

The things that make DDO a "hard" game (eg slow progress, manual rather than auto-attack combat system, build complexity, a raid that 98% of the player base can't even complete) mean its player base is quite different to those of other MMOs I've played.

Chances are that if you jump in a PUG the average age of the party will be somewhere between 32 and 42. You very rarely end up grouped with a kid (in my book, anyone under 25 :) ), and almost never after about level 8.

It's not a perfect MMO. Far from it. But at it's heart it really is a game designed for grouping and working as a team. Ultimately, to try it properly, you need to get in a group and share some banter and laughter. It's much funnier watching someone die in a trap when you're not soloing.

The very things that reduce DDO's mass appeal to the youngsters (eg flashy colours, cartoon style graphics, the ability to quickly and easily cap a character) are what keep me playing the game because they mean Stormreach is full of mature adults (I'd bet a good chunk of the player base have their own kids :) ).

So while it may lack some popular appeal, it's that very lack that keeps the game alive for me.

Sorry you didn't like it, but I hope DDO stays as a somewhat difficult, off-beat MMO. I hope we keep our mature adult player base. I also hope Turbine thrives with LOTR and its console plans and that DDO continues to benefit from innovations in other high subscriber MMOs.

Viva la difference.

[Mindspat]

I was in zero groups.

This explains everything about the OP. That is not a bad thing, it's just their preference of avoiding socialization and team work in a game that focuses upon it. On the other hand, DDO does lack in non social activities such as harvesting, crafting and otherwise good rollplaying tools.

The other issue is the obvious bias about the setting. It's like someone trying to tell you how good Vanilla is that doesn't like Vanilla, all they can do is pretend. Hard not to respect the OP when they came out early on the nature of their bias.

[moorewr]

This explains everything about the OP. That is not a bad thing, it's just their preference of avoiding socialization and team work in a game that focuses upon it. On the other hand, DDO does lack in non social activities such as harvesting, crafting and otherwise good rollplaying tools.

The other issue is the obvious bias about the setting. It's like someone trying to tell you how good Vanilla is that doesn't like Vanilla, all they can do is pretend. Hard not to respect the OP when they came out early on the nature of their bias.

Get a cleric or a paladin.. thread necro. :)

He did point out the difficulties he had: couldn't send tells, couldn't see anyone outside snowy Korthos, snowy Korthos was empty, groups didn't work out. It wasn't just lack fo trying, but real problems with the Mod 8 world for newbies and trial accounts.

[Uska]

Not to mention the fact that I can think of only 1 quest in the whole game (kobold assault) that is something like "kill x mobs".

well we do have the slayer counts in the explorer area but that doesnt really count

[Kreaper]

You say you don't like "kill x baddies, solve puzzle, kill boss, end." I tried out LOTRO, and actually subscribe for awhile and got to about lvl 38. How can you enjoy the go fetch 10 boar heads, turn in, fetch 10 wolf skins, turn in, fetch 10 bear hides?

I killed two mobs and uninstalled. I don't see how that game is still online. But that is just my opinion. I guess a lot of people like it.

[Pyromaniac]

Millions of voices cried out "no" in the middle of the night...

Not really - bye

[Angelus_dead]

This explains everything about the OP. That is not a bad thing, it's just their preference of avoiding socialization and team work in a game that focuses upon it.
Yeah lol, the guy is pathetically unqualified to review any MMORPG.

What does he think the "M" even stands for in the genre abbreviation? (Not "massively", the other one)


The other issue is the obvious bias about the setting. It's like someone trying to tell you how good Vanilla is that doesn't like Vanilla, all they can do is pretend.
If you care that much about which D&D setting you're in, you're doing it wrong. That's particularly true if he claims to enjoy the Forgotten Realms setting, which is a random mismash of silly countries that make no sense next to each other. "Hey Ed, can we teleport the entire country of Egypt from Earth into your setting?"


Hard not to respect the OP when they came out early on the nature of their bias.
I'll make it easier for you:
He writes blogs purporting to review MMORPG games, when actually he's unwilling to play them enough to know what he's talking about. And he sure doesn't include his prejudices in the introductions to those reviews...

[moorewr]

If you care that much about which D&D setting you're in, you're doing it wrong. That's particularly true if he claims to enjoy the Forgotten Realms setting, which is a random mismash of silly countries that make no sense next to each other. "Hey Ed, can we teleport the entire country of Egypt from Earth into your setting?"

Oh yes. If there's one D&D setting I hate, it's Forgotten Realms. When people say "DDO sucks because it isn't FR" I know these are people I'm glad I have never gamed with.

Not to mention the action in FR revolves, way too often, around over-powered NPCs.. all in all a recipe for a really, really bad MMO experience.

[Donnie]

Thankfully I got burnt out on FR a decade ago. Eberron isnt bad once you get used to it.

[krud]

It also seems to me that you made up your mind before you even gave it a real try. What did you run, 4 lowbie quests?



Well, if I got a C on my term paper, but the professor only read the first paragraph, then yea, I would complain.

BTW Gratz on making Rank 3.

The professor analogy isn't quite right because he is pretty much obligated to read the entire paper since it's his job. A book or game that's meant for entertainment should hold someone's interest from the start, or why bother going any further. That first paragraph, page or chapter sets up the rest of the story. If someone does not find it interesting why would they be interested in spending any more time or money with it?

However, I should add if someone wants to be seen as an honest, legitimate reviewer, then they need to check some of their preconceived notions at the door. Otherwise, you just come off as someone simply sharing their own opinions and preferences, which does not make for a good reviewer. If you want to seem legit, then state your preconceived notions and preferences beforehand (e.g. if you are a book reviwer and do not like mystery novels, or if you expect a PnP table top experience, then say it before you review it), and then continue on as to how the game does or does not fit the bill. At least that way if someone does not agree with the vantage point you are coming from, they can at least treat the review accordingly.

[atombrain]

This explains everything about the OP. That is not a bad thing, it's just their preference of avoiding socialization and team work in a game that focuses upon it. On the other hand, DDO does lack in non social activities such as harvesting, crafting and otherwise good rollplaying tools.

The other issue is the obvious bias about the setting. It's like someone trying to tell you how good Vanilla is that doesn't like Vanilla, all they can do is pretend. Hard not to respect the OP when they came out early on the nature of their bias.

I'm a new player, I've never played this game before and I'm only level 3 and this has been my experience so far on the trial account.

1) I had the same problem as the OP did with tells, I couldn't reply back to tells and therefore I can't find groups. The LFG tool has been ineffective in doing what it should.

2) I did manage to get into a group to do the Waterworks quests which everyone ran through so fast I was lagging behind. Everyone ran off in different directions doing whatever they wanted and a few of us died because of it. I also found it annoying that you have to click on the chest after someone else opened it to get your loot and because I was always the last behind... and everyone is off in different directions, loot got missed. Why can't it pop up the loot on my screen when someone in my group loots the chest?

3) I'm one of those people who likes to play as a healer in MMOs but it seems that, at least at this level, its not really that exciting to play one. Through most of the waterworks it felt like I wasn't really needed nor was anyone on the brink of dying when everyone was together, so there was no satisfaction in saving anyone's life. All of this was on the Hard setting too.

4) I think that fact that there's spell points in the game kinda...makes it too much like every other MMO. I think that if the group knew that I only would have 4 heals till the next rest point... that would slow things down and maybe add a little more strategy to the game.

5) Maybe its because the only people that are still around are the veterans just trying to race their characters to the cap. Or maybe its that this game doesn't feel like D&D to me other than using some of its rules for character creation. But the trial is suppose to make me want to play the game further and I really don't think I will.

[Arianrhod]

I'm a new player, I've never played this game before and I'm only level 3 and this has been my experience so far on the trial account.

1) I had the same problem as the OP did with tells, I couldn't reply back to tells and therefore I can't find groups. The LFG tool has been ineffective in doing what it should.

2) I did manage to get into a group to do the Waterworks quests which everyone ran through so fast I was lagging behind. Everyone ran off in different directions doing whatever they wanted and a few of us died because of it. I also found it annoying that you have to click on the chest after someone else opened it to get your loot and because I was always the last behind... and everyone is off in different directions, loot got missed. Why can't it pop up the loot on my screen when someone in my group loots the chest?

3) I'm one of those people who likes to play as a healer in MMOs but it seems that, at least at this level, its not really that exciting to play one. Through most of the waterworks it felt like I wasn't really needed nor was anyone on the brink of dying when everyone was together, so there was no satisfaction in saving anyone's life. All of this was on the Hard setting too.

4) I think that fact that there's spell points in the game kinda...makes it too much like every other MMO. I think that if the group knew that I only would have 4 heals till the next rest point... that would slow things down and maybe add a little more strategy to the game.

5) Maybe its because the only people that are still around are the veterans just trying to race their characters to the cap. Or maybe its that this game doesn't feel like D&D to me other than using some of its rules for character creation. But the trial is suppose to make me want to play the game further and I really don't think I will.

Sorry to hear your experience was less than fun :(

I understand the limitation on sending tells is supposed to cut down on spam from platfarmers, but, combined with the grouping issues on Korthos, it has a serious negative impact on new players. I hope a better "new player experience" is in the works.

Unfortunately, many players do indeed race through low level quests at a speed that leaves new players lost and confused. There are players who are willing to go slow, but it's important to let them know you're a new player, and ask for a slower experience. Doing low level quests on Normal rather than Hard (or Elite) is more likely to get you a slower run - often those running low level quests on higher difficulties are doing it for Favor, and don't realize there might be new players in the group.

As for no one needing a healer - this is more likely a result of twink gear (level 2 characters with 25+ AC, for instance) and consumables (potions and wands of cure light wounds) than the spellpoint mechanic. Rest assured, there are groups that desperately need a healer's services, even at low level; they just don't tend to be composed primarily of veterans.

I hope the trial hasn't completely turned you off to the game. It's not for everyone, and I won't try to pretend it is. But it sounds like you had some negative experiences, and there are other possibilities. Sometimes it just takes a while to find a good group, and get to that quest that makes the whole thing really memorable.

Good luck, and enjoy :)

[Portmantoon]

+1

[Uska]

doh darn necro posts

[Zorth]

Find a key in a chest has been over killed.

Boss drops a key has been overkilled.

Finding keys to solve a quest is over killed and whenever I see it again in a new quest. I am bored of it.

[Visucius]

Quite the necro, I think it just out did the creature frankenstein created :P