nerfing tempest!

[nate007]

Ok why would you add somthing to a game just long enough for 75% of the users to use then change it?I have herd that the devs are planing to nerf the +2 ac you recieve from tempest which was an untyped ac to shield ac.This however is a bad idea.To recive the tempest feat you have to take 3 feats THREE!!!! all of which have to do with movement i.e. dodge!!!! mobility!!!! springatack!!!! so if you want to type the ac make it dodge ac since after all you do have to take the dodge feat to get it. I mean come on Now, to get on to my issue alot of ppl have taken umd to use shield wands. and as you know in order to be mostly succesfull with a shield wand you have to make a shroud item for cha skills and get several raid loot items i.e. seven fingured gloves, head of good fortune,cartuch.All of these things take time to get.So in summary if you nerf the ac from tempest to shield ac i want all of my 74 larges back to make duel shard cha skill items on 3 diff cha, I want choose from a list of all the raid loot from bolth the reaver and the titan and i also want to full respec all 3 of my toons. this combine with the fact that they want to nerf w/p is just about enough for me leave ddo for good. w/p has been out since around beta . a few ppl are upset because they made max dmg builds and are getting out killed buy some one with w/p.this is not my problem nor it it anyone elses problem the ppl who are upset should have taken the time to get w/p or reserched there build w/p was there befor them and should remain there long after they are gone TURBINE IF YOU CONTINUE TO CHANGE THINGS THAT YOUR OLD SCHOLL PLAYERS HAVE GOTEN USED TO FOR A GUY WHO HAS HAD AN ACCOUNT WITH YOU FOR 2 MONTHS THEN YOU WILL LOSE US AND LETS BE HONEST HOW MANY PPL CAN YOU AFFORD TO LOSE BEFOR YOU SHUT DDO DOWN

[Talcyndl]

Honest suggestion:

Paragraphs.

[Deriaz]

TURBINE IF YOU CONTINUE TO CHANGE THINGS THAT YOUR OLD SCHOLL PLAYERS HAVE GOTEN USED TO FOR A GUY WHO HAS HAD AN ACCOUNT WITH YOU FOR 2 MONTHS THEN YOU WILL LOSE US AND LETS BE HONEST HOW MANY PPL CAN YOU AFFORD TO LOSE BEFOR YOU SHUT DDO DOWN

You'd be surprised. (I learned The Matrix Online is still up and running. I didn't even know that had people playing, but it does, apparently.)

And I don't agree with the whole "ppl who are upset should have taken the time to get w/p or reserched there build" thing. I'm not about to center my build around one specific weapon type, nor do I want to use the exact same weapon that everyone else is. I want to use what I want -- if the answer to a new player for DPS isn't "Try this, this, or this. This might get also get you this. You could also consider. . ." but is "Use W/P." . . . I'd say there needs to be a change. Variety in weapons is good. One weapon that stands out above them all is bad.

My two copper.

-D

[Wrigley]

i want all of my 74 larges back
I want choose from a list of all the raid loot from bolth the reaver and the titan
i also want to full respec all 3 of my toons.

You forgot to ask for a compulsory participatory trophy just for playing.

[Borror0]

Ok why would you add somthing to a game just long enough for 75% of the users to use then change it?

I have herd that the devs are planing to nerf the +2 ac you recieve from tempest which was an untyped ac to shield ac.

This however is a bad idea.To recive the tempest feat you have to take 3 feats THREE!!!! all of which have to do with movement i.e. dodge!!!! mobility!!!! springatack!!!! so if you want to type the ac make it dodge ac since after all you do have to take the dodge feat to get it.

I mean come on Now, to get on to my issue alot of ppl have taken umd to use shield wands.

and as you know in order to be mostly succesfull with a shield wand you have to make a shroud item for cha skills and get several raid loot items i.e. seven fingured gloves, head of good fortune,cartuch.All of these things take time to get.

So in summary if you nerf the ac from tempest to shield ac i want all of my 74 larges back to make duel shard cha skill items on 3 diff cha, I want choose from a list of all the raid loot from bolth the reaver and the titan and i also want to full respec all 3 of my toons.

this combine with the fact that they want to nerf w/p is just about enough for me leave ddo for good. w/p has been out since around beta .

a few ppl are upset because they made max dmg builds and are getting out killed buy some one with w/p.this is not my problem nor it it anyone elses problem the ppl who are upset should have taken the time to get w/p or reserched there build w/p was there befor them and should remain there long after they are gone

TURBINE IF YOU CONTINUE TO CHANGE THINGS THAT YOUR OLD SCHOLL PLAYERS HAVE GOTEN USED TO FOR A GUY WHO HAS HAD AN ACCOUNT WITH YOU FOR 2 MONTHS THEN YOU WILL LOSE US AND LETS BE HONEST HOW MANY PPL CAN YOU AFFORD TO LOSE BEFOR YOU SHUT DDO DOWN
Not every change is good for the game.

w/p is biased toward piercing spec and two-weapon fighting, and that's bad, because it makes of those spec the best way to play by a long margin. A slashing spec'd S&B/THF character with a wounder versus a piercing spec'd character with a w/p rapier will kill four times slower. That's a huge gap between the two spec. Such an advantage should not be allowed because it undermine the quantity options in the game.

While nerfing can cost them players in the short term, leaving flaws in the game will cost them players in the long term.

As for Tempest, while the cost is expensive, it is certainly worth the 10% alacrity. If you consider Tempest II will have a Superior Two-Weapon Fighting-like bonus as well, it will be far worth the three feat. Since rangers could get an extremely high AC while maintaining high DPS, it is not a bad idea to lower their AC potential. Tempest I is good it can handle a nerf and still be extremely good.

Finally, as for your request to get your large back, I agree with you. Green Steel deconstrcution would be a great addition to the game. The same goes if you want to respec your rogue level out because UMD has lost its appeal to you, a class respec would be a good addition to this game.

Have a nice day.

[ICU]

w/p is biased toward piercing spec and two-weapon fighting, and that's bad, because it makes of those spec the best way to play by a long margin. A slashing spec'd S&B/THF character with a wounder versus a piercing spec'd character with a w/p rapier will kill four times slower. That's a huge gap between the two spec. Such an advantage should not be allowed because it undermine the quantity options in the game.


************************************************** ******88


Peeps choice there own builds however.. If your choice is to be a thf then that is ur call .. If yah wanna be spec for rapiers and use a w/p that is ur call as well .. Why change something that really does not need to be changed...

[Nuckin]

All of my builds are max DPS builds..... and i have no problem keepin up with w/p.... actually the only time I use somethin other then DPS is on elite runs of shroud, in which i use a vorpal.... and sometimes in Reaver Refuge but then i only use wounders or keen puncturing....

Ran thru an SOS run just using 2 +5 wounders and had 10 less kills then the w/p tank.... not that kill count matters but u can contribute just as much to the party by using wounders or just plain puncturing and they are insanely easy to get.....

And yes I do agree that Turbine needs to stop changing things that have been in place for a long time.... Like tempest... w/p.... and anythin of the sort.... and even Tho monk wisdom AC is a lil unbroken..... I have no problem with it.... Still take my Str based tempests over em ne day....

Edit: I do agree with the deconstruction of shroud items as long as u get back all ingredients used to upgrade and make the item... (I.e. Before Dwarven axes were able to be crafted i made 2 Khopesh, have em upgraded... would love to deconstruct em and get shroud ingredients back as well as the vale ones used to make it)

[Borror0]

Peeps choice there own builds however.. If your choice is to be a thf then that is ur call .. If yah wanna be spec for rapiers and use a w/p that is ur call as well .. Why change something that really does not need to be changed...
Because "what is good" influences people's choice.

We don't see many Wis-based S&B barbarians. There's a reason to it.

I should also remind you that THF used to be king. Before then, S&B was king. Ranged did use to be as bad as it is now. By using the same rule as you are using, S&B should still be the best spec, two-weapon fighting should be called one-weapon-and-a-half fighting and w/p should be a poor way to kill mobs as it was that way at launch. Oh, and blackguards in Tempest Spine should be untouchable.

[lord_of_rage]

Ok why would you add somthing to a game just long enough for 75% of the users to use then change it?I have herd that the devs are planing to nerf the +2 ac you recieve from tempest which was an untyped ac to shield ac.This however is a bad idea.To recive the tempest feat you have to take 3 feats THREE!!!! all of which have to do with movement i.e. dodge!!!! mobility!!!! springatack!!!! so if you want to type the ac make it dodge ac since after all you do have to take the dodge feat to get it. I mean come on Now, to get on to my issue alot of ppl have taken umd to use shield wands. and as you know in order to be mostly succesfull with a shield wand you have to make a shroud item for cha skills and get several raid loot items i.e. seven fingured gloves, head of good fortune,cartuch.All of these things take time to get.So in summary if you nerf the ac from tempest to shield ac i want all of my 74 larges back to make duel shard cha skill items on 3 diff cha, I want choose from a list of all the raid loot from bolth the reaver and the titan and i also want to full respec all 3 of my toons. this combine with the fact that they want to nerf w/p is just about enough for me leave ddo for good. w/p has been out since around beta . a few ppl are upset because they made max dmg builds and are getting out killed buy some one with w/p.this is not my problem nor it it anyone elses problem the ppl who are upset should have taken the time to get w/p or reserched there build w/p was there befor them and should remain there long after they are gone TURBINE IF YOU CONTINUE TO CHANGE THINGS THAT YOUR OLD SCHOLL PLAYERS HAVE GOTEN USED TO FOR A GUY WHO HAS HAD AN ACCOUNT WITH YOU FOR 2 MONTHS THEN YOU WILL LOSE US AND LETS BE HONEST HOW MANY PPL CAN YOU AFFORD TO LOSE BEFOR YOU SHUT DDO DOWN

considering LOTRO is huge a few. I want a ferrari 550 and 1 billion dollars. It doesnt mean Ill get it. Yes it sucks but my rangers are str based dps toons. The loss of larges sucks but your ultimatum is childish at best.

[nate007]

I will agree that THF used to be the best , unless that is you had a w/p. It was never the best just no one had w/p or rather very few of us did . w/p has always been the best that is why the drop rate is so minimum. How ever you are correct TWF was not somthing you did if you wanted to do max dps back in the day.TW fighters were gimp but they have evolved.The devs have given mobs much more hp and red names do not take stat dmg so high dps is still key.I believe that THF is very gimp and should be addresed so as to match the massive hp that they have given mobs.

[Borror0]

I believe that THF is very gimp and should be addresed so as to match the massive hp that they have given mobs.
Then you agree there is something wrong.

[Meriadeuc]

Really, it's not that bad. You may lose some AC if you're used to having the shield spell up all the time, but you also won't have to fiddle arround with shield wands or clickies any more, which has got to be a relief.

[Riorik]

Ok why would you add somthing to a game just long enough for 75% of the users to use then change it?
...
TURBINE IF YOU CONTINUE TO CHANGE THINGS THAT YOUR OLD SCHOLL PLAYERS HAVE GOTEN USED TO FOR A GUY WHO HAS HAD AN ACCOUNT WITH YOU FOR 2 MONTHS THEN YOU WILL LOSE US AND LETS BE HONEST HOW MANY PPL CAN YOU AFFORD TO LOSE BEFOR YOU SHUT DDO DOWN

If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Left in the first and last (uber run-on no punctation) sentences.
Just consider it rolled up into the same category as Evasion in Heavy Armor.

Basically, you won't find me beating a drum that changes are needed to items such as Monk Wisdom AC, but come on...it is a little rediculously crazy-good and the game isn't really balanced for it...that's even one of the reasons why it's rediculously crazy-good.

However, I figure this whole thread is really just somebody venting as opposed to being an actual "extreme emergency" that we might lose the OP. I mean, if it had been an actual emergency, wouldn't we have been notified through the emergency broadcast system...sheesh...:D

Nax

[Gorstag]

Your complaining over the change of 2 ac? Good lord, you should be happy they did not break tempest one in half inorder to make tempest 1 and 2 or worse.

[Brianius]

Blockoftextftw!!!!!!!!!!!!


ok Why Would You Add Somthing To A Game Just Long Enough For 75% Of The Users To Use Then Change It?i Have Herd That The Devs Are Planing To Nerf The +2 Ac You Recieve From Tempest Which Was An Untyped Ac To Shield Ac.this However Is A Bad Idea.to Recive The Tempest Feat You Have To Take 3 Feats Three!!!! All Of Which Have To Do With Movement I.e. Dodge!!!! Mobility!!!! Springatack!!!! So If You Want To Type The Ac Make It Dodge Ac Since After All You Do Have To Take The Dodge Feat To Get It. I Mean Come On Now, To Get On To My Issue Alot Of Ppl Have Taken Umd To Use Shield Wands. And As You Know In Order To Be Mostly Succesfull With A Shield Wand You Have To Make A Shroud Item For Cha Skills And Get Several Raid Loot Items I.e. Seven Fingured Gloves, Head Of Good Fortune,cartuch.all Of These Things Take Time To Get.so In Summary If You Nerf The Ac From Tempest To Shield Ac I Want All Of My 74 Larges Back To Make Duel Shard Cha Skill Items On 3 Diff Cha, I Want Choose From A List Of All The Raid Loot From Bolth The Reaver And The Titan And I Also Want To Full Respec All 3 Of My Toons. This Combine With The Fact That They Want To Nerf W/p Is Just About Enough For Me Leave Ddo For Good. W/p Has Been Out Since Around Beta . A Few Ppl Are Upset Because They Made Max Dmg Builds And Are Getting Out Killed Buy Some One With W/p.this Is Not My Problem Nor It It Anyone Elses Problem The Ppl Who Are Upset Should Have Taken The Time To Get W/p Or Reserched There Build W/p Was There Befor Them And Should Remain There Long After They Are Gone Turbine If You Continue To Change Things That Your Old Scholl Players Have Goten Used To For A Guy Who Has Had An Account With You For 2 Months Then You Will Lose Us And Lets Be Honest How Many Ppl Can You Afford To Lose Befor You Shut Ddo Down

[Noctus]

If the OP´s text would have been more than a scrambled letter salad i would have taken the time to actually read it.

@OP
If you want people to read your statements, format them in a readable way.

[jmonty]

Your complaining over the change of 2 ac? Good lord, you should be happy they did not break tempest one in half inorder to make tempest 1 and 2 or worse.
and it is a bug he's talking about right?

W T F man. no biggie, chill, OP.

[ICU]

Because "what is good" influences people's choice.

We don't see many Wis-based S&B barbarians. There's a reason to it.

I should also remind you that THF used to be king. Before then, S&B was king. Ranged did use to be as bad as it is now. By using the same rule as you are using, S&B should still be the best spec, two-weapon fighting should be called one-weapon-and-a-half fighting and w/p should be a poor way to kill mobs as it was that way at launch. Oh, and blackguards in Tempest Spine should be untouchable.


Look not saying ur right i am right ,, Its just why come up with a way to build something, and then it works great.. Then you get a few people who say ahhh my barb is not Johnny bad *** anymore and complain about the latest new thing going on. I do agree there should be some limitations on things, But you change the rules in mid game either.. How long has W/P been out and right now they wanna change it ?? Becuase some peeps make abuild around a certin wep , now they are being penalized for there creations.. I just dont see the justice in that .. It is just my 2 cents I normally dont advocate to much on forums unless its to trade or sell but i have all read them and on this matter i felt the need to speak my mind bud..

[Strakeln]

The game needs some massive tweaking/fixes/whatever you want to call it.

At the same time, players need to be given a way to adapt that doesn't amount to "start over, sucker".

I think there's a thread or two about that somewhere... :D

[DelScorcho]

Left in the first and last (uber run-on no punctation) sentences.
Just consider it rolled up into the same category as Evasion in Heavy Armor.

Nax

Completely false comparison. Evasion in heavy armor was a broken ability. The devs acknowledged it, but players didn't think they would change it. No one should have been suprised that the party ended.

Tempest was working exactly as the devs intended it. This would be in the catagory of the HV nerf, as Human versitility was an enhancement that was working as designed. The developers decided it was over-powered, and many builds suffered because of their lack of foresight.

[Naso24]

It may make you feel bad if you design a character around a specific weapon or piece of equipment, but that is nothing compared to designing a character around a certain style of fighting and have that beaten with the nerf bat or under beefed up as other styles get whacked with the uber buff stick.

I have reluctantly come to agree with others that the highest AC potential should be sword and board style, with also the least DPS.

Since it it relatively easy to gear up to max for S&B, a high AC designed TWF with high end equipment should be close in AC, but higher in DPS.

Finally, a THF should be able to output the highest DPS, but have lesser AC potential.

Some of the new prestige enhancements will fix some things. Others will close the gap some. Unfortunately, DPS is too closely tied to animation speed and the devs are reluctant to adjust this (not even just applying speed increases which would be easy to even things out.

Until we see STWF, kensai enhancements, frenzied barbarian, monk prestige enhancements, BAB 20 attack rates, STHF (if it will even exist), etc., it will be difficult to tell what end game balance will be like.

Until then, we are forced to speculate based on all the evidence to date.

While it is disappointing to lose something (particularly on my 12/2/2 ranger figher monk build), I understand why the changes are being made. On the bright side, I will be able to have 3 AC from tempest all the time versus 6 with shield and 2 without. L18 rangers will have 4 AC all the time and STWF. That's really not all that bad when you think about the number of beholder encounters and the more frequents dispelling mobs in the last 2 mods.

As far as w/p goes, they will still be great weapons even if nerfed a bit. Hopefully any changes will be to mobs rather than the weapon itself. The alternative is having a lot more red immune to stat damage, which isn't any more fun.

[Blazer]

I think there's a thread or two about that somewhere... :D

Yeah, I think I remember seeing one around here somewhere about it. :p

[Arnya]

I could understand all the jealousy and balance complaints if this was a PVP issue, but it's not.

That guy next to you with the w/p is HELPING YOU. As a party, we are supposed to work together to acheive the quest goals, and we all get the same loot from the same loot tables at the end of the quest no matter how much or little you contribute.

All I can say is when I'm on DPS a w/p in party is great - when we attack the same enemy he dies real quick. Same thing when I'm on w/p - a couple of whacks from a big hitter and the mob's few remaining HPs are gone.

I don't feel the need to finish every mob off when I'm w/p - who cares, it's dead right?

This may seem a bit off track from the OP, but the loss of 2AC is easily mitigated by valid tactics and use of the resources availabe to the party be it CC, DPS, stat damage, intimidate/diplomacy whatever.

On the other hand, if you find yourself soloing a lot to avoid players that get more kills than you, you may need those 2AC points and a few more...

[Drekisen]

...............

[nytewolf]

Tempest was working exactly as the devs intended it. This would be in the catagory of the HV nerf, as Human versitility was an enhancement that was working as designed. The developers decided it was over-powered, and many builds suffered because of their lack of foresight.

Actually this statement is not correct. The Dev's have stated it should have been only while TWF that you recieved the bonus and not 100% of the time your character is alive like it is now. I know people that took Tempest I for their S&B characters for +2 AC.

As to the "it should be a dodge bonus not a Shield bonus." comment made by others. A consideration to make if you have Tempest I you get no benefit from the Chaosguards dodge. If you have Tempest II you get no benefit from the Chattering ring dodge. If you have Tempest III you get no benefit from the Icy Rainment dodge bonus.

Remember like bonuses do not stack. So seems to me that unless you liberally use Shield clickies this change will benefit more than hurt the TWF people who should have been the only ones using Tempest in the first place.

[Lifeblood]

. this combine with the fact that they want to nerf w/p

who is They?

[GlassCannon]

DDO would be a ghost-town.

It's almost unrecognizeable in comparison to the early Launch and MOD 1 content.

[shvbacae]

They will make the next six mods undead again. That will fix W/P.

[Meriadeuc]

Remember like bonuses do not stack. So seems to me that unless you liberally use Shield clickies this change will benefit more than hurt the TWF people who should have been the only ones using Tempest in the first place.



Actually, dodge bonuses do stack, so what you write about getting no benefit from other dodge items isn't correct. You're quite right, however, that the only people whose AC will be hurt by this are those who have the shield spell up all the time. The typical forum mentality is to just blithely assume that everyone will always have shield, everyone will have an Icy Raiments, etc., but when it comes down to the majority of real players (which is the only context in which all of this balance blather is meaningfull), that is far from true.

[Pyromaniac]

Actually I thought tempest would have been hit harder given what else we're seeing happen out there.

I feel your pain, but it could have been much worse.

[Delt]

Actually, dodge bonuses do stack, so what you write about getting no benefit from other dodge items isn't correct. You're quite right, however, that the only people whose AC will be hurt by this are those who have the shield spell up all the time. The typical forum mentality is to just blithely assume that everyone will always have shield, everyone will have an Icy Raiments, etc., but when it comes down to the majority of real players (which is the only context in which all of this balance blather is meaningfull), that is far from true.

No they don't. The dodge bonuses of an equal number aren't supposed to stack. That's why the DT armor dodge doesn't stack with the ring.

[Korvek]

No they don't. The dodge bonuses of an equal number aren't supposed to stack. That's why the DT armor dodge doesn't stack with the ring.

That's specifically for items though.

Inspire Heroics and Icy Raiment stack and they both give +4.

Given that Tempest isn't an item, it will stack.

[Delt]

That's specifically for items though.

Inspire Heroics and Icy Raiment stack and they both give +4.

Given that Tempest isn't an item, it will stack.

If IH is actually typing the AC bonus as Dodge and it's stacking with IR's (i can't test, I trashed my Bard), then it's a bug. The devs have already clarified this when people were ****y about DT not stacking with chattering ring.

Remember, by your logic, even if they change the Tempest AC bonus to whatever, it should still stack because it's from an enhancement, not an item. We all know that's not what they intend, which is why it's a nerf.

[Riorik]

Actually, dodge bonuses do stack...

Somewhat incorrect. I thought all dodge bonuses *should* stack up to +20, however, they in fact, do not. Multiple chattering rings are considered the same source, for example, and do not stack. The Dragontouched armor dodge bonus seems to be the same source as the chattering rings.

I agree they should stack - and I recall reading something, somewhere that dodge should only stack up to +20 maximum...however, I suspect you're not supposed to have ever actually gotten +20 dodge bonuses (in PnP). Sorta a game limit that you're never intended to hit...perhaps it was expected to be too high to ever hit.

I would say, in fairness, I believe chattering rings not stacking was probably an unintended effect that was deemed a feature after the fact.

[Drekisen]

...................

[bruha118]

i dont think tempest,or wis ac should be nerfed...its hard enough to get a high ac in this game and if ya dont have a 60+ ac then ac dont mean squat...not that you have to have tempest or wis ac to accomplish that... raid items can do it...but as we all know those r not easly obtainable...all ppl are tryin to do is reach a high enough ac so they wont get hit as much...so with that bein said if tempest and wis ac gets nerfed so does the mobs BaB.

[Aesop]

If IH is actually typing the AC bonus as Dodge and it's stacking with IR's (i can't test, I trashed my Bard), then it's a bug. The devs have already clarified this when people were ****y about DT not stacking with chattering ring.

Remember, by your logic, even if they change the Tempest AC bonus to whatever, it should still stack because it's from an enhancement, not an item. We all know that's not what they intend, which is why it's a nerf.

Nope Items of the same magnitude don't stack. However Items and Songs, Spells, Potions, Feat, etc will stack with items regardless of matching magnitudes. Dodge the Feat will stack with the Dodge bonus from haste etc. Eladrin clarified that in the same thread saying that it was only Items of similar magnitudes.

And Tempset AC bonus is becoming a Shield Bonus to AC... which is what TWD is supposed to be as well... can't remember if it is though. If it is I hope that it still stacks with Tempest.

Aesop

[Missing_Minds]

Op, per the books, it was a shield bonus. So... pffffff, deal.

[sephiroth1084]

Sheesh! The highest AC build loses 2 AC to a change which makes sense since that type of ability for TWF is traditionally a shield bonus anyway. Besides, it's not like anyone built their character around that +2 AC! People went Tempest for the 10% alacrity and the AC was just icing on the cake. Sure, some folks took UMD partly (but not exclusively) so that they could use shield wands. Those people will still get some mileage out of those up to level 17 (or later if they splashed a class or two), after which point you gain that 4 AC even against beholders and don't have to find shield wands anymore.

Quit crying like this is the end of the world/DDO/your character. Tempest ranger 6/something else x will still be one of the strongest, if not the reigning champ, characters still, and rangers who go to 18 will gain the benefits of a feat the devs were leary about including in the game at all!

[Turial]

Dodge like bonuses do not stack only if from the same source....specifically items. Niether the bard song, the tempest enhancement nor the dodge feat are an item, and should all be able to stack.

If I am not mistaken u should be able to get a max. dodge as of now to ....
1 haste
1 dodge feat
2 tempest
2 chaosguarde
3 chattering ring or DT armor
4 Icy Raiment
4 bard song
-
17 total dodge

not sure about the alchemical rituals, if those are now dodge then it's an additional 2 for a total of 19

Tempest is not a dodge bonus. It is currently untyped which is why it stacks with everything.

Current max is...
5 CE (listed as a feat bonus)
1 Dodge feat (listed as a feat bonus)
4 IR
3 Chattering
2 Chaos guard
1 Armor ritual
1 Shield ritual
4 Inspire greatness
1 Haste
1 Tier 3 Air proc haste
6 Improved uncanny dodge from rogue 8 / barb 5 levels
Potentially +2 Defensive stance from Defender of siberys I (6 levels of paladin)
__
31 dodge

The current rule for dodge is that "All dodge bonuses stack, unless they are derived from items and are of similar magnitude". In pnp the only rule was that two items of the same name cannot give you the same dodge bonus, i.e. two chattering rings will not give you +6 dodge.

[bandyman1]

It doen't matter anyway.

As has already been pointed out, it's a shield bonus in PnP. They didn't nerf it, they changed it to what it should have been in the first place.

The extra AC supposedly represents extra ease of parrying attacks, because of the offhand blade. Far more of a shield bonus than dodging a blow. Pretty simple peeps.

[Rantanplan]

Ok always the same song :)

No one has said to you you have to build your 3 toons like you did. So your wrong decision makes your toons less efective, **** happend.

To be honest you don´t have to decide between 2 weapon fighting or bow as ranger as in pnp, you get them both is this fair for you.

You can take the other pres. if you like or you can quit the game if you don´t like what they are doing. Your decision.

But if you want to make a decision which counts, say something productive like how they should fix the problem, but keep in mind: don´t make a singel char so out of ranged that you can´t compare it with another char.

And at least life isn´t fair, so why should a game be it if it mirro the life ;)

[Aesop]

Op, per the books, it was a shield bonus. So... pffffff, deal.

Unless they did an errata on it then no it isn't a Shield Bonus in PnP. Two Weapon Defense line is but Tempest is an untyped bonus.

However you also don't get to keep advancing your Ranger Spells or Favored Enemies or anything else you would get from another class outside of the Prestige Class. You also don't get a bonus to attack rate with the exception of Two Weapon Spring Attack.

Just trying to be accurate. Tempest is still up in the most powerful tier using the most powerful combat style and incorporates builds that have the highest potential AC currently in the game. losing 2 AC does not change that.


Aesop

[Delt]

Nope Items of the same magnitude don't stack. However Items and Songs, Spells, Potions, Feat, etc will stack with items regardless of matching magnitudes. Dodge the Feat will stack with the Dodge bonus from haste etc. Eladrin clarified that in the same thread saying that it was only Items of similar magnitudes.

And Tempset AC bonus is becoming a Shield Bonus to AC... which is what TWD is supposed to be as well... can't remember if it is though. If it is I hope that it still stacks with Tempest.

Aesop

I guess I didn't read his followup then, because all I remember is him saying the dodge bonuses of a similar + were not intended to stack.

[Drekisen]

...............

[manfredshw]

you guys haven't got the point.

For tempest, AC is not the point.
10% speed is the key.

Actually, tempest1 is still strong enough for those splash 6ranger. This should be nerf.

Dev don't want ranger become more powerful, so tempest3 is still 10% speed, this is BS, in my oppinion, tempest1-3 attack speed should match its tier. Not always 10%.

If ranger6 is 10%, ranger18 should be higher. Or just nerf ranger6. But there are so many xx/6ranger there, without full respec system, dev won't dare to touch those XX/6rangers.

For AC aspect, this is a nerf for high level rangers. Because XX/6ranger can still cast shield wand to get full 4AC.
But for tempest3 ranger, they don't, and they don't need in fact. But for boost ac potential, tempest3 rangers are lost their chance.

Dev thought tempest is too powerful according to forum feedback, so they haven't increasing the 10% attack rate for tempest3. But this attack speed should match its tier, tempest1-tempest3 is the same attack speed, this is too stupit. Why? Because there are so many xx/6ranger, dev will not nerf tempest1, you nerf it, people quit.
And they are still can't boost tempest3 too much, if tempest3 speed is 15%, that's too powerful, people crying, and people quit.

What they can do, is to change the ac aspect, to show that they had done sth for tempest. But they haven't realised that this is a nerf for 18+ranger, because, tempest3 is still have the same attack speed as tempest1, and tempest3 lost their 4AC, because everybody umd nowadays.

[bandyman1]

They aren't boosting tempest attack speed, it's true.

But what tempest III DOES gain, is extra attacks while TWFing.

So, it's not as if they gain nothing, because they lost the ability ( or the need ) to UMD shield wands.

As for 50 AC making a diffrence on normal; ROTFLMAO.
Yeah, tell that to someone who doesn' have a 60 AC standing S&B pally who still gets hit quite regularly. On normal.

[Boldrin]

Would you like some cheese with your Whine?

[Borror0]

this still does not excuse the fact that turbine or the devs or what have you implemeted it the wrong way to begin with and people who have spent time building a character around what was, will now have it taken away.
We cannot realistically expect them to get everything right from the first try.

[Korvek]

As for 50 AC making a diffrence on normal; ROTFLAO.
Yeah, tell that to someone who doesn' have a 60 AC standing S&B pally who still gets hit quite regularly. On normal.

Well, to be fair that was specifically in reference to the Vale quests excluding Shroud. In those, a 50 AC is probably around 45-60% of the time getting hit depending on the enemy. I very rarely get hit in there with a 55-ish standing AC on my rogue (no Raiment/Chattering Ring) and a 55 on my Fighter, though that may have more to do strictly with maneuvering than actual AC.

[bandyman1]

At 55 AC, in the vale, sure. In the quests? Not so sure. All I'll say on the subject is that I'm a skilled " twitch " player. I don't stand still on any melee. And I still get hit in those quests. On normal. At 60 AC ( ususally 64 actually, considering I'm drinking haste and bark pots ). So...:confused:.

As for your rogue; Sure you don't. My rogues my main, and she very rarely gets hit at her high 40s AC. Wanna know why?

Becuse skilled rogue players almost never have aggro. Simple as that ;) .

[Drekisen]

They aren't boosting tempest attack speed, it's true.

But what tempest III DOES gain, is extra attacks while TWFing.

So, it's not as if they gain nothing, because they lost the ability ( or the need ) to UMD shield wands.

As for 50 AC making a diffrence on normal; ROTFLMAO.
Yeah, tell that to someone who doesn' have a 60 AC standing S&B pally who still gets hit quite regularly. On normal.

I know how to read my combat log and I see quite often, on a regular basis, such and such misses u, not misses u because u are displaced, but misses you. And I have no mroe than a 50 AC, and that is on NORMAL in Vale quests

[Lehrman]

Honest suggestion:

Paragraphs.

LoL!!!

[bandyman1]

I know how to read my combat log and I see quite often, on a regular basis, such and such misses u, not misses u because u are displaced, but misses you. And I have no mroe than a 50 AC, and that is on NORMAL in Vale quests

My new comp won't be ready to go until this coming weekend.

After that; I'd be more than happy to solo a couple of thoe quests and post SS of my combat log and my toons AC.

[Denssor]

You'd be surprised. (I learned The Matrix Online is still up and running. I didn't even know that had people playing, but it does, apparently.)

And I don't agree with the whole "ppl who are upset should have taken the time to get w/p or reserched there build" thing. I'm not about to center my build around one specific weapon type, nor do I want to use the exact same weapon that everyone else is. I want to use what I want -- if the answer to a new player for DPS isn't "Try this, this, or this. This might get also get you this. You could also consider. . ." but is "Use W/P." . . . I'd say there needs to be a change. Variety in weapons is good. One weapon that stands out above them all is bad.

My two copper.

-D

Agreed! 100%!

[Drekisen]

My new comp won't be ready to go until this coming weekend.

After that; I'd be more than happy to solo a couple of thoe quests and post SS of my combat log and my toons AC.

I said u get hit noticably less, I did not say u always get missed. I also stated this was in reference to quests or explorer areas at or below ur level. So plz do not post screenshots of u doing Vale quests above normal or Reaver's Refuge quests or Shroud & Subterrane raids. We may all only be 1 xp point way from level 17, but we are in fact NOT level 17, and as I have stated how the hard and elite CR modfiers work, we are no where near level 18-23.

Also another thing to take note of, I am not entirely sure on this, however when you roll in ur crit range, say u roll a 19 while wielding a khopesh, even if u don't confirm the crit, u still do normal damage. That happens regardless of whether the opponents AC is 50 or 90. So u are going to get hit, that does not mean in normal to hit situations a 50 AC does not greatly improve your survivability, saves healing mana and overall makes for a better damage reduction.

Not to mention that who nows what feats and expanded threat ranges these monsters have. Thier hit point and BaB bonuses sure do not work like ours, I'm sure thier critical hit mechanics don't either. And we all know by now as per the OP and it being stated later that the Tempest bonus to AC was in the books a shield bonus to begin with, that Turbine and the Devs don't follow the books 100%. Overall I never stated a 50 AC was going to make u untouchable, no amount of AC will, I stated it would result in u getting hit noticably less. I also never stated in reference to what lower AC u would get hit noticably less than. So I don't see what ur posting screenshots is going to do to make my staterment invalid, u just misread or misinterpeted it.

[Drekisen]

Would you like some cheese with your Whine?

<-----Vegan

would u happen to have any popcorn tho?

[BlackSteel]

a person who grabs tempest ONLY for the untyped AC needs to be checked in somewhere

[Aesop]

<-----Vegan

would u happen to have any popcorn tho?

only covered in Carmel.

I eat vegetables too... no wait that's I eat vegetarians.


That taste good... must be the lask of red meat... sorta like people eating veal


note: I refuse to eat veal.

Aesop

[Drekisen]

We cannot realistically expect them to get everything right from the first try.

they apparantly have based the game loosely around PnP D&D and use that as reference, so they obviously knew the whole time is was orginally a shield bonus but chose not to implement it that way from the start.

Now the class get's something stripped away from it because of thier experimentation, which is a burden they should have to pay, not the players.

[Draccus]

Ok why would you add somthing to a game just long enough for 75% of the users to use then change it?

Because it was too powerful?

I don't play a ranger and never will but if you think 75% of the plyers are using Tempest than you answered our own question as to why it's being nerfed.

I could look at the player data for ANY game and tell you which class is overpowered without having played the game once or read a single bit about it. Give me the class list and the number of active players playing each class and I'll tell you which classes are overpower.

I think I read in Nick Yee's MMO dissertation that something like 60% of players play the most powerful class in the game, regardless of the game.

Do you see a few Tempest Rangers out there? There's your answer. Now, looking ahead at Tempest III, they gave them the only Superior TWF ability in the game. The powerful just got more powerful and you're whining about 2 AC?

[shores11]

Completely false comparison. Evasion in heavy armor was a broken ability. The devs acknowledged it, but players didn't think they would change it. No one should have been suprised that the party ended.

Tempest was working exactly as the devs intended it. This would be in the catagory of the HV nerf, as Human versitility was an enhancement that was working as designed. The developers decided it was over-powered, and many builds suffered because of their lack of foresight.

However I also believe that even if something works exactly as intended and later they find out that it is overpowered it is ok to make the change for the better of the games balance.

[Aesop]

they apparantly have based the game loosely around PnP DDO and use that as reference, so they obviously knew the whole time is was orginally a shield bonus but chose not to implement it that way from the start.

Now the class get's something stripped away from it because of thier experimentation, which is a burden they should have to pay, not the players.

I've read the entry on the Tempest AC and no where in it does it say Shield Bonus

It however does say the following


Tempest Defense (EX): When weilding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), a Tempest gains a +1 bonus to Armor Class. This bonus increases to +2 at 3rd level and +3 at 5th level. The character loses this ability when fighting in medium or heavy armor.


Again no where in that paragraph does it say a Shield Bonus.

However teh Feat Two Weapon Defense and ts line is supposed to be a Shield Bonus to AC


TWO-WEAPON DEFENSE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting.

Benefit: When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC.

When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2.

Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Defense as one of his fighter bonus feats.


I'm not saying the "nerf" is a bad thing or that Tempest is weak now but I am trying to keep accurate on this. Tempest is still highest on the Combat Food Shain for PrEs

Aesop

[Drekisen]

...............

[sephiroth1084]

It really is an incredibly minor point. On top of that, MMOs are constantly in flux. It's part of their nature. Sometimes players will get something (new abilities, spells, capstones, PrEs, etc...) and sometimes we'll lose something.

Whining about an incredibly minor nerf is really silly. Oh no! The highest AC class in the game lost 2 AC! DOOM! DOOM! DOOM TO US ALL! That same class still has the highest or second highest DPS potential, gets access to tons of the best class abilities in the game (free TWF, free Manyshot, Ram's Might, Bark Skin, Favored Enemy, Tempest speed boost...).

Chill, or go complain about something that matters.

[seldarin]

Ok why would you add somthing to a game just long enough for 75% of the users to use then change it?I have herd that the devs are planing to nerf the +2 ac you recieve from tempest which was an untyped ac to shield ac.This however is a bad idea.To recive the tempest feat you have to take 3 feats THREE!!!! all of which have to do with movement i.e. dodge!!!! mobility!!!! springatack!!!! so if you want to type the ac make it dodge ac since after all you do have to take the dodge feat to get it. I mean come on Now, to get on to my issue alot of ppl have taken umd to use shield wands. and as you know in order to be mostly succesfull with a shield wand you have to make a shroud item for cha skills and get several raid loot items i.e. seven fingured gloves, head of good fortune,cartuch.All of these things take time to get.So in summary if you nerf the ac from tempest to shield ac i want all of my 74 larges back to make duel shard cha skill items on 3 diff cha, I want choose from a list of all the raid loot from bolth the reaver and the titan and i also want to full respec all 3 of my toons. this combine with the fact that they want to nerf w/p is just about enough for me leave ddo for good. w/p has been out since around beta . a few ppl are upset because they made max dmg builds and are getting out killed buy some one with w/p.this is not my problem nor it it anyone elses problem the ppl who are upset should have taken the time to get w/p or reserched there build w/p was there befor them and should remain there long after they are gone TURBINE IF YOU CONTINUE TO CHANGE THINGS THAT YOUR OLD SCHOLL PLAYERS HAVE GOTEN USED TO FOR A GUY WHO HAS HAD AN ACCOUNT WITH YOU FOR 2 MONTHS THEN YOU WILL LOSE US AND LETS BE HONEST HOW MANY PPL CAN YOU AFFORD TO LOSE BEFOR YOU SHUT DDO DOWN

Holy hell, just went through a box of tissues cleaning up all the blood from my bleeding eyes. Mate did you ever hear of punctuation and paragraphs, would make this a whole lot easier to read.

To address one of your concerns, IF you went to that much effort just to use shield wands, mate you have some serious problems. UMD has so much more usage than just shield wands, so IMHO you really have nothing to bleat about. Changed AC bonus to be a shield bonus, boo hoo, deal with and move along, they couldve screwed it a whole lot more than that.

To make such a demand BECAUSE YOU elected to make your build revolve around shield wands, sorry, no sympathy here.

I couldnt quite read exactly what it was you were trying to say, but it seemed like a jumble of nothingness. You express no sympathy for DPS builds that are being outkilled by W/P builds, well same goes mate, no sympathy to someone who thinks that their characters are screwed simply because those shield wands you use UMD for no longer work. USE UMD FOR SOMETHING ELSE AND STOP WHINING ABOUT LOSING A COUPLE OF POINTS OF AC!!!!!!!

If this is seriously the only thing in life or game that you have to worry about, you are doing ok, but jeazus chill mate, take a few deep breaths, suck a few pills and repeat "its only a game".

[Demoyn]

Ok why would you add somthing to a game just long enough for 75% of the users to use then change it?

Here's a thought: don't do anything that 75% of the users are doing. There are ten classes in DDO. On average that's 10% of the user base per class. Given variation, if more than 20% of the population is playing any one class, there's a balance issue.

By your own estimation, the variance was disrupted by over 55% of the population. That calls for a nerf about as badly as your post calls for an editor/spellchecker. You should be happy that you're only losing a maxxed AC of two.

Now, take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard. While you're out there, try thinking of a personality of your own instead of just imitating the other 74% of the population.

[Drekisen]

...................

[Darth_Sizzle]

Is it really so hard to see?

Everyone knows Tempest is broken. It's incorrectly applying the AC bonus when you are using a weapon and a shield.

Hmm, easiest fix...having problems making the AC bonus go away when a shield is equipped. Hey, I got it! We'll just make the (dual-wielding) AC bonus a shield bonus.

Problem fixed? No. Problem solved.

[BlackSteel]

because of all of the aspects it orginally pertained to, not just the faster attack speed. People that think the only reason temepst appealed to people was because of the faster attack speed and the +2 bonus to AC had nothing to do with, definatlely need to be confined in a deep dark dungoen somewhere in the Orchard

um, thats what the 'only' is for

its still an amazing pre with the change, and most twf melee classes would kill to have it. the 2 AC has always been and always will be just icing on the cake.

guess the people who hoarded up and bought all the titan cookies for their 15/1 ranger/monks wont need em any more after the lvl cap increase. Demand on these cookies will go down a lil bit.

[jeffdnd]

TURBINE IF YOU CONTINUE TO CHANGE THINGS THAT YOUR OLD SCHOLL PLAYERS HAVE GOTEN USED TO FOR A GUY WHO HAS HAD AN ACCOUNT WITH YOU FOR 2 MONTHS THEN YOU WILL LOSE US AND LETS BE HONEST HOW MANY PPL CAN YOU AFFORD TO LOSE BEFOR YOU SHUT DDO DOWN

Your join date is Aug 2008, it's Jan 2009. So according to you:
2 months = NOOB!!!
5-6 months = 1337 uber awesome pwn everything played since beta "OLD SCHOLL" player!?

Also as stated before, punctuation and grammar please!

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Ok why would you add somthing to a game just long enough for 75% of the users to use then change it?I have herd that the devs are planing to nerf the +2 ac you recieve from tempest which was an untyped ac to shield ac.This however is a bad idea.To recive the tempest feat you have to take 3 feats THREE!!!! all of which have to do with movement i.e. dodge!!!! mobility!!!! springatack!!!! so if you want to type the ac make it dodge ac since after all you do have to take the dodge feat to get it. I mean come on Now, to get on to my issue alot of ppl have taken umd to use shield wands. and as you know in order to be mostly succesfull with a shield wand you have to make a shroud item for cha skills and get several raid loot items i.e. seven fingured gloves, head of good fortune,cartuch.All of these things take time to get.So in summary if you nerf the ac from tempest to shield ac i want all of my 74 larges back to make duel shard cha skill items on 3 diff cha, I want choose from a list of all the raid loot from bolth the reaver and the titan and i also want to full respec all 3 of my toons. this combine with the fact that they want to nerf w/p is just about enough for me leave ddo for good. w/p has been out since around beta . a few ppl are upset because they made max dmg builds and are getting out killed buy some one with w/p.this is not my problem nor it it anyone elses problem the ppl who are upset should have taken the time to get w/p or reserched there build w/p was there befor them and should remain there long after they are gone TURBINE IF YOU CONTINUE TO CHANGE THINGS THAT YOUR OLD SCHOLL PLAYERS HAVE GOTEN USED TO FOR A GUY WHO HAS HAD AN ACCOUNT WITH YOU FOR 2 MONTHS THEN YOU WILL LOSE US AND LETS BE HONEST HOW MANY PPL CAN YOU AFFORD TO LOSE BEFOR YOU SHUT DDO DOWN

Yep, its time....... for a ....

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5470/507720ea6.th.jpg (http://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=507720ea6.jpg)

[Drekisen]

..................

[Korvek]

that Are Going To Lose 4 To Thier Ac.

2?

[BlackSteel]

that are going to lose 4 to thier ac.

I will have to admit tho in all honesty how annoyed I get a lot of times when I see a dwarven str build ranger running around with two axes and they don't even have a bow in thier inventory. I mean a RANGER still is a RANGER.

When I really think about it though, this whole thread is so pre-mature. I mean who knows what all is in store as far as items, crafting, mosters, loot...everything for the next mod. We will really have to wait and see.


sure it hurts those with the middle AC who got it with shield clickies, but they're working on their AC, but they're not exactly specced for it either, why should that person get a bonus AC w/o a price really? the rangers, and splash classes built for AC are not going to take a huge hit to their running total, going from 82 AC to 80 AC is not game breaking except if they wanted to main tank VoD

and btw as the game stands now it is 2 AC, IF tempest 2 n 3 were implented as untyped it would be 4 AC.

[Drekisen]

.................

[seldarin]

Your join date is Aug 2008, it's Jan 2009. So according to you:
2 months = NOOB!!!
5-6 months = 1337 uber awesome pwn everything played since beta "OLD SCHOLL" player!?

Also as stated before, punctuation and grammar please!

Join date refers to date joined forums, not necessarily date started playing. I started playing March 2006 but didnt join forums till somewhat later, so date joined doesnt mean diddly.

[bandyman1]

I said u get hit noticably less, I did not say u always get missed. I also stated this was in reference to quests or explorer areas at or below ur level. So plz do not post screenshots of u doing Vale quests above normal or Reaver's Refuge quests or Shroud & Subterrane raids. We may all only be 1 xp point way from level 17, but we are in fact NOT level 17, and as I have stated how the hard and elite CR modfiers work, we are no where near level 18-23.

Also another thing to take note of, I am not entirely sure on this, however when you roll in ur crit range, say u roll a 19 while wielding a khopesh, even if u don't confirm the crit, u still do normal damage. That happens regardless of whether the opponents AC is 50 or 90. So u are going to get hit, that does not mean in normal to hit situations a 50 AC does not greatly improve your survivability, saves healing mana and overall makes for a better damage reduction.

Not to mention that who nows what feats and expanded threat ranges these monsters have. Thier hit point and BaB bonuses sure do not work like ours, I'm sure thier critical hit mechanics don't either. And we all know by now as per the OP and it being stated later that the Tempest bonus to AC was in the books a shield bonus to begin with, that Turbine and the Devs don't follow the books 100%. Overall I never stated a 50 AC was going to make u untouchable, no amount of AC will, I stated it would result in u getting hit noticably less. I also never stated in reference to what lower AC u would get hit noticably less than. So I don't see what ur posting screenshots is going to do to make my staterment invalid, u just misread or misinterpeted it.

Nope. I didn't misinterpet or misunderstand you.

Crit range has absolutely nothing to do with it. Only a roll of natural 20 is an auto hit, for both us and them.

I know you are talking about Vale quests on normal. So am I.

If you are seeing noticeable miss chance like you listed ( 20-30% or more attacks missing you ) in those quests, then I'm only being hit on a natural 20. After all, my AC is 14 points higher than yours.

And I can assure you that I am hit wayyyy to often for that to be the case.

[Delt]

I will have to admit tho in all honesty how annoyed I get a lot of times when I see a dwarven str build ranger running around with two axes and they don't even have a bow in thier inventory. I mean a RANGER still is a RANGER.

Bows are for sissies.

[Drekisen]

............

[Aesop]

Bows are for sissies.

No ranged combat is underpowered thus meaning that the bow user is confident enough to use ranged combat anyway knowing he'll still win, stubborn enough to play the character he/she wants regardless of the circumstances or not informed enough to know better...

I'm not sure which I am. Maybe dumb enough to think that they'll actually fix ranged combat one day

Aesop