The Evasion Blues

[Venar]

Subject: Evasion

Disclamer: This is not a nerf evasion thread.

Abstract: The evasion skill is just fine. But it's overusefullness in the current system creates a must-have imbalance.

My background: Here since launch. Played about 20 characters to cap. All class, many multiclass, few rerolls, even wierd builds.

The story:
With all the new enhancement and PrE announced, i have been pondering a new alt. And it occured to me: i cannot, just cannot, consider not having evasion. Heck, even for a wizard, i'd probably get 2 monk levels (evasion and thoughness x2) and insightfull reflex.
Is evasion wrong, or too strong? Nah.
It works just fine. It requires light armor, and good saves. It's not free.

But. The current game content creates an environment where having the evasion feat makes a HUGE difference.

The problem is 3-fold:
1- The overabondance of massive evadable damage.
Indeed, stuff that is evadable in the game do ridiculous damage. How often do you see casters die to a single blade-barrier? Delayed fireball that 1 shots people even with resist? Chain-casted chain-lightings. Meteor Showers from hell.
These spells do 2 to 3 times the damage of a melee attack.

2- You can't pass evasion.
Oh, there is stat dmg in the game, there is poison, diseases, etc. But you can pass poison resist, you can pass deathward, you can pass on resistances. But you can't give out, or get evasion. The only way, is to be of the right class. So it's a rare skill.

3- It's just better then AC.
Evasion, for many, cost AC, since you can't wear heavy armor. But AC stops SOME melee damage, but you still get hit. Evasion takes all nasty spells damage and turns it to... zero.

The result? When a hardcore player like me wants to make a new character, i just cannot ignore evasion. It is a must.
And i talk to people. And so far, about every single good player i talk to are in the same boat. They can't leave home on a melee without evasion. It is that good.

Try it. Play a few weeks on an evasion melee. You just cannot go back. You'll wonder: why is my life going low so fast?


What do i want from this post? A nerf to evasion? NO! Hell no!.
But maybe a tune down of the need for it.
How about a little nerf to ennemy spell damge? How about blade barrier from junk trog shamen that dont 1-shot my sorcerer? How about the run-of-the-mill living spell does not kill 3 party members with a single flamestrike? How about raid bosses that don't spam evadable spells every single second?

Most of the game's massive threats are evadable. Just tune it down, cause it creates a deep gap between evaders and clumsy goofs.


Good day.

[smatt]

Yep, I think perhaps evasion has become a HUGE advantage within the game. Too makie it worse the current way over-powered two-weapon Rogue or Ranger with a splash of monk for evasion/ac/saves boost makes it even worse. I think evasion should be an important tool, BUT builds should have to give up soemthings in order to have evasion. Currently that's not the case at all, and it's magnified by the way over-powering of the 60's AC two-weapon fighting super DPS evasion builds. Nice class to play.. But cant' people see that if they did ever do the complete respect that basically all you'd have with melees.... That and a few pali intimi builds.

I'm never asking for balance....... Simply a bit more thought into how the changes to feats/classes/enhancements truly pan-out.... It's now pretty right now.... And please no true nerfage of existing things... It will cause far too many dirty diapers in the stands....

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Good day.

And a good day to you too!

[Angelus_dead]

But maybe a tune down of the need for it.
Here's a way to reduce the need for Evasion, a new feat:

Shield Deflection: req Heavy Shield Proficiency, BAB 11.
You may use your Shield AC bonus in place of your dexterity bonus on reflex saves. If using a shield and you pass a reflex save that would normally do half damage, you can instead take quarter damage. Your shield AC bonus is added to your energy resistance, to a max of 150% your previous resistance.

[gamblerjoe]

resist, pro, knowing where to be, and knowing how to move is all i need to keep my squishies alive.

[petegunn]

I hear let me rephrase that i read what yer saying bro . My ranger is so much more fun to play in the shroud , than my intimi tank, casters or clerics . Who can all be one shotted or close to killed with those **** fireball facials and if that doesn't kill them outright they usually die fumbling for pots , scrolls or wands of heal in the blades .

[CrimsonEagle]

I hear let me rephrase that i read what yer saying bro . My ranger is so much more fun to play in the shroud , than my intimi tank, casters or clerics . Who can all be one shotted or close to killed with those **** fireball facials and if that doesn't kill them outright they usually die fumbling for pots , scrolls or wands of heal in the blades .

:eek::eek::eek:

Lol, I must be over tired....this struck me as being funny:)

[bobbryan2]

Ring of evasion.

la la la la la

[Pyromaniac]

Evasion isn't essential though its definitely nice. If you don't have evasion, a lot of HP will see you through most of the problems.

That being said, my monk/cleric is giving up a lot to have evasion - a lot of SP, DCs etc. You also need to have a decent dex/reflex save, so there's more given up there. For a mage, they're giving up the capstone which is huge. So its definitely not a cheap thing to get and should be valuable in game.

[bobbryan2]

Evasion isn't essential though its definitely nice. If you don't have evasion, a lot of HP will see you through most of the problems.

That being said, my monk/cleric is giving up a lot to have evasion - a lot of SP, DCs etc. So its definitely not a cheap thing to get and should be valuable in game.

Actually... it should be cheap. 2500 plat to be precise.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#evasion

[Venar]

resist, pro, knowing where to be, and knowing how to move is all i need to keep my squishies alive.


They issue is the Paladin 16 vs the Paladin 14/ Monk 2

Evasion Melee vs non-evasion Melee.



So its definitely not a cheap thing to get and should be valuable in game.

No. But beeing a warforged is not cheap. It gives:
Light fort : available on items
Poison resist: available on item, spells, wands, and pots.
Disease immunity: item, spells, pots, wands, paladin hands.
Hold immunity: FoM
Immunity to neg levels: Death ward, kardin eye, nerve optic, silver flame trink.


My point is, that even if it's not free, at least you can't get it elsewhere. It's unique in that way, super-usefull, and too important.

[Samadhi]

As much as your post makes complete sense Paxa, you know the response will be "more blades like in shroud pt 2 where not even evasion will protect you!! - have 700 HP or get one shot!! hahaha!!"

[Angelus_dead]

Actually... it should be cheap. 2500 plat to be precise.
The PnP Perfection fallacy.

The fact that a rule exists in D&D is a very weak justification to say what "should" be added to DDO.

[bobbryan2]

The PnP Perfection fallacy.

The fact that a rule exists in D&D is a very weak justification to say what "should" be added to DDO.

Well, it should be added to DDO for it's own reasons.

I'm merely saying PnP doesn't object.

[branmakmuffin]

Yep, I think perhaps evasion has become a HUGE advantage within the game. Too makie it worse the current way over-powered two-weapon Rogue or Ranger with a splash of monk for evasion/ac/saves boost makes it even worse. I think evasion should be an important tool, BUT builds should have to give up soemthings in order to have evasion.
As the OP noted, you do have to give up something to get Evasion: your character has to have 2 levels of Rogue or Monk, or 9 of Ranger, and you have to limit the character's armor to light or cloth. Is that enough "something?" Maybe, maybe not, but the character does have to pay some kind of price to get Evasion.

It's funny, I've seen people in game talk about how unnecessary Evasion is. There may even be threads in the forums about that.

Like the STR-build melee vs. DEX-build melee debates, it's all a matter of opinion.

[Impaqt]

Actually... it should be cheap. 2500 plat to be precise.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#evasion

And as soon as We get the "Forge Ring" Feat and want to spend 25 days making one you can get it.

[moops]

While evasion is nice. . .My non evasion Cleric uses the Firestorm greaves, an Ice Cloak, +5 reflex item, and head of good fortune and is able to run into the end fight in Kobold and stay there ans mass heal, as well as melee the Pit Fiend for kicks.

Understandably a new player might not be able to afford the Greaves and the Cloak, but, since you have 20 capped toons, build what you want, and just get the above items.

[Bloodhaven]

Ring of evasion.

la la la la la

Hope to see this item soon.

[Noctus]

Ring of evasion.

la la la la la

Yeah, suuuuure.

1st:
Running kick to the nuts for all builds who splashed to get evasion.

2nd:
Overpowered. There are currently people who are ready to give up 2 levels of caster power, and all that comes with that , on their otherwise pure caster-builds, just to get this ability. And these are not the kind of people who´s ideas everybody snickers about.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Running kick to the nuts for all builds who splashed to get evasion.

Can't think of ANYTHING right now that would be funnier than watchin and listening to all the self professed elite multiclassers who look rather bland next to the more focused and powerful pure class.... which is the way it SHOULD be.

Ring of Evasion FTW!

[bobbryan2]

Yeah, suuuuure.

1st:
Running kick to the nuts for all builds who splashed to get evasion.

2nd:
Overpowered. There are currently people who are ready to give up 2 levels of caster power, and all that comes with that , on their otherwise pure caster-builds, just to get this ability. And these are not the kind of people who´s ideas everybody snickers about.

1st:
Another good reason to add a respec. It's the right thing to do... adding a respec for the build it affects is as well.

2nd:
It's a lvl 2 ability. Turbine is the one that made it so highly regarded with the amazing number of reflex saves they force us to make. If they cut way back on those... it wouldn't even be that great anymore, would it?

[Samadhi]

more focused and powerful pure class.... which is the way it SHOULD be.



Yeah... that's it..

[Borror0]

.... which is the way it SHOULD be.
Eh, no.

[Enochroot]

Eh, no.

C'mon! Nothing like rewarding cookie cutter pure builds and not utilizing the depth of a system that makes such interesting builds possible!

Here's to pure barbs/fighters/rangers/palladins with the same stats/feats! That's how it should be!

[slumbering_dragon]

Here's a way to reduce the need for Evasion, a new feat:

Shield Deflection: req Heavy Shield Proficiency, BAB 11.
You may use your Shield AC bonus in place of your dexterity bonus on reflex saves. If using a shield and you pass a reflex save that would normally do half damage, you can instead take quarter damage. Your shield AC bonus is added to your energy resistance, to a max of 150% your previous resistance.

not a bad idea, i like it.

[Riggs]

signed.

I have a lot of evasion characters, and often think I should just level up an evasion cleric and evasion wiz as well.

Like wops, it is not that evasion is overpowered, it is that spam, area damage, is SO overused that a non-evasion melee needs a cleric spamming their mana bar on them to keep the 250 point fireballs at bay in every other quest. Or spam bb, or spam metoer swarm, or spam lightning bolts, or spam cometfalls.

Players can spam spells, but then players fight 100-200 monsters per quest. Monsters on the other hand, all of them, can spam an unlimited amount, and every other second, against the same 6 -12 players for the entire 20 min/45/hour long quest.

Sinec I dont enjoy HAVING to have a cleric standing behind me on every quest draining their mana bar on me, I generally go with evasion, and even made a new evasion cleric, and would not make a melee at this point that didnt have it period.

[Adrahil]

It's not really hard at all to get a 20 reflex save on a caster. Almost every type of damage you're hoping to avoid comes in the form of fire or lightning. Throw the greaves + fire shield + fire res/pro on (you're a caster, after all), or put the ring of the djinn + electric res/pro on and just keep yourself rebuffed. I've been two-manning Monastery elite lately and my sorc doesn't have evasion. Those casters spam chain lightning / comet fall and I can't recall the last time one of them actually killed me with it.

Evasion is great in that it lets you _ignore_ most of that stuff, but non-evasion people can work around that with a little bit of preparation and a small investment in gear. If you can't afford/find the greaves / ring of the djinn, hot-keying fire pro and electric pro will go a long way towards helping you survive almost every encounter in the game.

For tanks that don't have evasion and can't self-buff, get a cleric to hold your hand as you're largely useless anyway.