The MMO crash of 2008 (ext. article)

[GovtMule]

http://hellforge.gameriot.com/blogs/Caveat-Emptor/The-MMO-Crash-of-2008

Interesting (at least to me) article on the failed MMOs of 2008.

While DDO suffered some of the bad points referenced at startup, it soldiered through and has stabalised where much "bigger" titles failed. Well done.

In a good light it refers to LotRO but not us...but I'm used to that now :P


Just thought I'd share.

[Kalanth]

Thanks for posting that, it was a good read. I always wondered what kept some MMO's around and others dissapear. There are shockers in the past, like Matrix Online somehow still having live servers to this day, and it actually pleases me to hear about the Conan troubles (I was a Beta tester and quit because of the testing fiasco). Turbine makes an effort with both its games, obviously more so with LoTRO, but I am happy to see updates to DDO which is a big deal to an old MMO.

[tihocan]

Interesting read, thanks :)

[Sirea]

At least we weren't included in the "old and tired" category :)

[akla_thornfist]

At least we weren't included in the "old and tired" category :)

ya there was no mention of ddo at all kinda sad

[Thrudh]

Yeah, but notice they said that HellGate's big draw was that it tried to do FPS combat.

And they complained about the boring quests (go get 10 wolf skins, etc).

How come no one knows about DDO??

Our combat and character customization is unmatched by any game, and we're completely off the radar....

[Rog]

i really enjoyed reading that noticed that ddo was not included anywhere but for that one figured it was for the best most likey..........then i laughed becouse ddo at lauch was also a j/k i have played since mod one and it would been real easly for ddo to die in the flames except this game pulled a pnp fan base and the devs have yet to tire of are wisdom on the forums.........how they deal with us viciously loyal dogs i have no clue bet we turned a few people hair gray with stress lunarsong

[Steiner-Davion]

How come no one knows about DDO??

Our combat and character customization is unmatched by any game, and we're completely off the radar....

Yeah what is up with that? This is what truly distinguishes us from the pack.

[Rog]

Yeah, but notice they said that HellGate's big draw was that it tried to do FPS combat.

And they complained about the boring quests (go get 10 wolf skins, etc).

How come no one knows about DDO??

Our combat and character customization is unmatched by any game, and we're completely off the radar....

fly below the radar or get shot down

[DoctorWhofan]

SOmeone should ost, the writer is answering the comments.

[Demoyn]

DDO's biggest problem with customer base is that they don't get the word out about the game. If it weren't for my subscription to Dragon Magazine I'd have never even known this game existed, and Dragon Magazine's been dead for over a year.

Businesses without advertising budgets will never be more than mom and pop operations. WoW has commercials on TV and over 11 million players. No other MMO has ever had that much advertisement, and I've never heard of another game with over 2 million players. Coincidence? I think not.

[Demoyn]

SOmeone should ost, the writer is answering the comments.


He also didn't mention Ultima Online, Shadowbane, or any other underpopulated game that's still going strong.

[DoctorWhofan]

He also didn't mention Ultima Online, Shadowbane, or any other underpopulated game that's still going strong.

Agreed, and one of the posters mentioned Runescape. I tried to log in to the site, nothing but headaches.

[Gornin]

SOmeone should ost, the writer is answering the comments.

Done

[Rog]

Done

cool mybe he post back commenting on ddo and start some real drama:)
i would but i am at work so it have to wait till i get home here to hoping :)
i dont think the old boy ready for fire and ice or ddo drama

[Inspire]

Nice post. Thanks.

[Shyver]

I didn't because, for one, DDO is slowly dying, and second, Turbine has the vast majority of its focus on LotRO and, apparently, an unannounced project. That, and DDO has received less-than-stellar reviews. Yes, I am aware that they are still releasing content patches and that the game came out two years ago, but, unfortunately, when compared to the volume of other MMOs I listed, I do not believe it stacks up, which is the same reason why I didn't mention AC either (despite AC being one of the most influential MMOs from which other MMOs have pulled ideas from, including WoW).

Ouch :mad:

Nothing like an uniformed writer to denounce a game wihtout ever having tried it. Poor reporting/responding for sure.

[DoctorWhofan]

cool mybe he post back commenting on ddo and start some real drama:)
i would but i am at work so it have to wait till i get home here to hoping :)
i dont think the old boy ready for fire and ice or ddo drama

He did, thesame ol' stuff about DDO slowly dying junk. Imean, when wasthe last time he played the game?

[Rog]

He did, thesame ol' stuff about DDO slowly dying junk. Imean, when wasthe last time he played the game?

time for the gloves to come off peeps or let the doomsayer win the day are game might be slowly dieing as long as we are kicking and screaming biting scratching it be a good death.

[DoctorWhofan]

time for the gloves to come off peeps or let the doomsayer win the day are game might be slowly dieing as long as we are kicking and screaming biting scratching it be a good death.

yeah, but it hates me. I cannot log into the site.

[DoctorWhofan]

woot! I posted! Ok, I sound like a complet fangurl but I finally got to post!

[Gornin]

woot! I posted! Ok, I sound like a complet fangurl but I finally got to post!

I take it you Trissacoldrake? I am Corlain on there.

[Sirea]

I replied to the story as well.

[GorumT]

Thanks for the article post, it was a good read.

[Tarrant]

You people make me proud to work here.

Just remember to keep it civil! Don't go spoiling our good name.

[Sojourner]

Replied as well with a small defense for DDO. (Although wasn't the main point of the article, so didn't go too deep into it)

[DoctorWhofan]

I take it you Trissacoldrake? I am Corlain on there.

yup!:p

[DoctorWhofan]

You people make me proud to work here.

Just remember to keep it civil! Don't go spoiling our good name.

What good name??? Remember! we are a "dead" MMO!!!! We are just tired of reporters and naysayers saying DDO is dead, when they haven't PLAYED the game!

[Josh]

ROFLMAO that people are running to defend the game.

[GorumT]

ROFLMAO that people are running to defend the game.

ROFLMAO that you think that's funny.

[transtemporal]

You people make me proud to work here.

Just remember to keep it civil! Don't go spoiling our good name.

Insulting WoW players is ok though right? ;)

[Poe76]

Man, who else is going to defend this game, not turbine (NO ADVERTISING). :mad:

It's up to us if we have the chance to let people know whats really up. I talked
to some buddies of mine that play WOW, and each time i do i'm left completely
discumbobulated by their allegiance to a game that has a horrible combat system.
Each time I tell em "TRY DDO".

Thanks very much to the op for this thread and letting us know of the article and
where to post so all of us peeps that play a dead mmo every day can let our
voices be heard.

I freakin love this game :)

DDO'ers UNITE :cool:

[GovtMule]

The mule has weighed in on the topic now, too. Cripes I can ramble. I don't think even I knew what I was saying by the end of it. :D

[asdfss]

Well Warhammer hasn't shut its doors. But to call it a success and AOC part of the crash seems weird to me. But the MMO press in general is the stupidest of the stupid.

They both dropped like rocks after the first 2 months and WAR is just now implementing caps/instancing without instancing on its fortress seiges because they keep crashing the servers. And they are not really fixing the fundamental problem with the game, namely that its RvR campaign is shallow and lacks any strategy.

Both games had/have stuff people wanted but had stability/performance and fundamental flaws in the stuff they wanted. AoC had combo based combat. Apparently no other game has collision based combat. Oh wait DDO has had it for years and it works much better. Oh I forgot MMO press articles are written by ignoramuses. But that combat was funky, not really collision based, suffered from lag, and wound up with ******** one shot PvP. And WAR has long term large scale PvP, but they forgot to add strategy to the war.

Of course most of the press gave AoC 9.0s as well. It will just take 3 more months for them to turn around bite Mythic once the bandwagon is completely gone.

[GorumT]

The mule has weighed in on the topic now, too. Cripes I can ramble. I don't think even I knew what I was saying by the end of it. :D


The Mule?

[GorumT]

Well Warhammer hasn't shut its doors. But to call it a success and AOC part of the crash seems weird to me. But the MMO press in general is the stupidest of the stupid.

They both dropped like rocks after the first 2 months and WAR is just now implementing caps/instancing without instancing on its fortress seiges because they keep crashing the servers. And they are not really fixing the fundamental problem with the game, namely that its RvR campaign is shallow and lacks any strategy.

Both games had/have stuff people wanted but had stability/performance and fundamental flaws in the stuff they wanted. AoC had combo based combat. Apparently no other game has collision based combat. Oh wait DDO has had it for years and it works much better. Oh I forgot MMO press articles are written by ignoramuses. But that combat was funky, not really collision based, suffered from lag, and wound up with ******** one shot PvP. And WAR has long term large scale PvP, but they forgot to add strategy to the war.

Of course most of the press gave AoC 9.0s as well. It will just take 3 more months for them to turn around bite Mythic once the bandwagon is completely gone.


WAR has issues, but friends say they aren't that bad if you like PvP. Persoannaly I am not so PvP oriented that a game like WAR interests me. Which is sad, because I love the Warhammer books and Universe.

[cappuccino]

OP

Thanks for the thread. going to read now. and post! beware when Pempernel picks up a pen (hope I can get that name) :D

EDIT: update - got the handle Pempernel and said my piece :) and didn't even swear or act like a fanboi

[Rog]

this is are game p/0) if you dont think ask yourself why this game is still around ?there is no other reason except the ddo fan base is the old pnp players base ,and we stubbern as hell! just try to go agaist core rules and see the responce the player base? this game would have died at level 10 if not for the players demanding it stays and they emprove it every year it the same old fight

[GoldyGopher]

I enjoy articles like this until they get to the author's current favorite game, in this case well we all know what it is, which suffenly changes the tone or believe in the article. It's too bad he ended on the tone he did.

There are a number of interesting year end stories on MMORPG that I couldn't find the URL's and my history at home might have them I'll post later.

[Wrustle]

Don't know if you guys have noticed yet but Agamemnon (the writer of the article) has replied to most of your comments... Sounds to me like you guys have convinced him to give the trial a shot! I could be mistaken though.

[DoctorWhofan]

this is are game p/0) if you dont think ask yourself why this game is still around ?there is no other reason except the ddo fan base is the old pnp players base ,and we stubbern as hell! just try to go agaist core rules and see the responce the player base? this game would have died at level 10 if not for the players demanding it stays and they emprove it every year it the same old fight

NEVER GIVE UP THE SHIP!!!


Or in this case, the MMO. Perhaps more aggressive tactics are in order to spread the word.

[vtecfiend99]

Man I really hope he gives us a try and writes an article about it!


We need to start rabidly posting on all these sites lol

[negative]

NEVER GIVE UP THE SHIP!!!


Or in this case, the MMO. Perhaps more aggressive tactics are in order to spread the word.

Perhaps you are right. It only takes one article author, such as this one, to state with "authority" that DDO is a dying game to severly hurt the chances of new subscriptions to the game. While, on the other hand, it would take the voice of many to counter that damage and turn it around.

I also concur with the sentiments on this thread that many MMO article authors are some of the most bias and poor researchers I've ever seen in game writting. It only goes to figure. Many, and I have a feeling this author is included in this bunch, are just average MMO players who like to be vocal on forums, wether they be doomsayers or fanboys, either way I hardly consider them journalists.

Or maybe I'm just bitter :D

[Alexander_Illusioni]

Great way to advertise for this game! Love seeing most of the posts, responding to an article, to be defending DDO. Maybe it will make a few others try DDO, including many who have tried the failed games. One can hope. :)

[Giantsbane]

ROFLMAO that you think that's funny.

ROFLMAO that he's still here.

[cappuccino]

Don't know if you guys have noticed yet but Agamemnon (the writer of the article) has replied to most of your comments... Sounds to me like you guys have convinced him to give the trial a shot! I could be mistaken though.

I don't think so, cause he never took me up on my challenge to do a 10 day trial.


Responded to him again offering the challenge or expose him as a sham (although not well worded)

Will wait for a responce from him, and drink some wine, That always makes me write better for some reasion.:cool:

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I wonder how much it would cost to buy the adword on google for 'dungeons and dragons' to point to the ddo website :)

Garth

[Arianrhod]

Perhaps you are right. It only takes one article author, such as this one, to state with "authority" that DDO is a dying game to severly hurt the chances of new subscriptions to the game. While, on the other hand, it would take the voice of many to counter that damage and turn it around.

I also concur with the sentiments on this thread that many MMO article authors are some of the most bias and poor researchers I've ever seen in game writting. It only goes to figure. Many, and I have a feeling this author is included in this bunch, are just average MMO players who like to be vocal on forums, wether they be doomsayers or fanboys, either way I hardly consider them journalists.

Or maybe I'm just bitter :D

So what's this "massively" site the author mentions as evidence of DDO's imminent demise? Maybe that's where we should be posting, rather than replying to this guy's (rather badly written, IMO) article.

[Giantsbane]

So what's this "massively" site the author mentions as evidence of DDO's imminent demise? Maybe that's where we should be posting, rather than replying to this guy's (rather badly written, IMO) article.

massively.com

It's a decent site. I've never seen anything on there to indicate that they think DDO is dying. IMHO their articles on DDO have been fairley positive. I may have missed a couple though.

[EightyFour]

My memory of when DDO first opened it's door's went fairly well but didn't last long.

I remember there were problems with shipping, it seems there was a problem with people getting there games on time. So myself I was able to create and play characters in the two week head start, then there was an extension given for play time as the shipments of the game were late. I remember as the cleric getting booted from world in the "Depths of Doom". TWo days later I got my package with the game in it and I was back in world.

After about 3 months people were hitting the ceiling with a lot of there characters. It was still a fun game but it was cramped. I mean there was the harbor, the marketplace and the 4 houses, that was it. It seems DDO released to early with not enough content. As a result, and I can't say this is the only reason again this is just from my perspective, that about 50% of people dropped off in the first 6 months.

Sometimes I think companies just push there workers to hard. Oh well, the companies well change as they find more and more problems with there systems.

[GorumT]

ROFLMAO that he's still here.

ROFLMAO that you think your witty.

[Dirac]

Edit: Nevermind. I don't get what is going on or who this person (author of the linked post) is.

[DoctorWhofan]

I don't think so, cause he never took me up on my challenge to do a 10 day trial.


Responded to him again offering the challenge or expose him as a sham (although not well worded)

Will wait for a responce from him, and drink some wine, That always makes me write better for some reasion.:cool:

silly man, he said yes!

[Lewcipher]

Perhaps you are right. It only takes one article author, such as this one, to state with "authority" that DDO is a dying game to severly hurt the chances of new subscriptions to the game. While, on the other hand, it would take the voice of many to counter that damage and turn it around.

I also concur with the sentiments on this thread that many MMO article authors are some of the most bias and poor researchers I've ever seen in game writting. It only goes to figure. Many, and I have a feeling this author is included in this bunch, are just average MMO players who like to be vocal on forums, wether they be doomsayers or fanboys, either way I hardly consider them journalists.

Or maybe I'm just bitter :D

That guy probably writes articles in the New York Times as well. Just as uninformed.

[gHzSWB]

While DDO suffered some of the bad points referenced at startup, it soldiered through and has stabalised where much "bigger" titles failed. Well done.


I am curious how you are coming to the conclusion that DDO succeeded where others failed? Do you have any information to say that this game makes a profit or that it makes more profit than some of those other big titles that have failed? Certainly DDO has survived, that much is obvious as we can log in and play but one could make the argument that DDO is very much run on the cheap with nowhere near the new content the very design dictates and servers that seem to be barely better than hand me downs from LotRO. My point is that it is really kind of an odd thing to claim DDO as a success and hold it up as contrasting to big title failures - it is pretty hard to imagine a stronger IP in the RPG world than D&D so to my way of thinking DDO is one of those big title failures that has, to the game's credit, just managed to hang on.

[GeneralDiomedes]

it is pretty hard to imagine a stronger IP in the RPG world than D&D

In a creative and historical sense, yes. In an MMO-friendly rules translation sense, absolutely not.

[silverraven]

so we're no tthe best? At least we didn't suck!:D:rolleyes: DIE CONAN DIE! LACES OUT!

[Lifeblood]

I posted a link to the "blog" on my guild site. I am sure it will generate more than a few comments for the op...lol

[gHzSWB]

In a creative and historical sense, yes. In an MMO-friendly rules translation sense, absolutely not.

How so? Do any of the big titles have anything but lore going for them prior to becoming MMOs? DDO has the lore, the prestige, and it has a working set of rules. I agree translating VS inventing is a different thing but it is hardly accurate as a result to say the D&D name is not a premium big title name. Point being that DDO tanking and hanging on IS one of the big title failures he aludes to.

[Venar]

I agree that the author has obviously not played WAR. That game is pretty bad, and the subscriptions are just nosediving.

[GovtMule]

I am curious how you are coming to the conclusion that DDO succeeded where others failed? Do you have any information to say that this game makes a profit or that it makes more profit than some of those other big titles that have failed? Certainly DDO has survived, that much is obvious as we can log in and play but one could make the argument that DDO is very much run on the cheap with nowhere near the new content the very design dictates and servers that seem to be barely better than hand me downs from LotRO. My point is that it is really kind of an odd thing to claim DDO as a success and hold it up as contrasting to big title failures - it is pretty hard to imagine a stronger IP in the RPG world than D&D so to my way of thinking DDO is one of those big title failures that has, to the game's credit, just managed to hang on.

That's easy.

DDO launched with some issues the four games in the article launched with.

Turbine got on said issues and DDO stabilized.

These bigger, more-hyped titles are gone or going.

I call job well done.

If success is not the word, how 'bout "not fail"? :D

[Lifeblood]

I don't think so, cause he never took me up on my challenge to do a 10 day trial.


Responded to him again offering the challenge or expose him as a sham (although not well worded)

Will wait for a responce from him, and drink some wine, That always makes me write better for some reasion.:cool:

you should read his responses a bit closer he DID agree to check out DDO again and I give him props for doing so

I also give you props for your "passion" ..not your wording tho it was a bit graphic for my taste

[GoldyGopher]

I agree that the author has obviously not played WAR. That game is pretty bad, and the subscriptions are just nosediving.

I think it is more along the lines that he hasn't played WAR recently.

[gHzSWB]

That's easy.

DDO launched with some issues the four games in the article launched with.

Turbine got on said issues and DDO stabilized.

These bigger, more-hyped titles are gone or going.

I call job well done.

If success is not the word, how 'bout "not fail"? :D

What are these big title games that are gone? DDO launched to much hype, much expectation, and inside the first couple months it tanked miserably - server merges where not far behind (certainly on the quick side of the scale), and it is hard to argue (fan or otherwise) that the game has done anything but decline from launch (first rapidly and of late more steadily). Subs are among the lowest of all MMOs, certainly the lowest of all marquee IP MMOs. So again, how is this not a fail in the same way as those others? Face it - if Turbine didn't have LotRO to prop up DDO then DDO would have been shut down long ago.

Hellgate - OK, a fail - but that is a major big title how? Pirates of the Burning Sea - again, fail but how is that a big title by any definition and how is it now any better off than DDO? Conan is the only big blockbuster title in that grouping and while it certainly was a huge bust in terms of how good and subs (from what we can tell) it easily has more people playing than DDO ever has. I mean is it OK to cast stones from your glass house if you failed at launch to reach near millions of subs and then quickly dropped to a few thousand? As if it is better to have no early success followed by no mid or late success than to open to smashing success and then fall off to a poor showing? DDO is what DDO is - but to comment about it as anything other than on of those big fails is just silly - DDO, along with Vanguard and AoC and the eventual collapse of SWG due to SoE stupidity rank right up there at the top of any objective lists of MMO epic failures.

[GoldyGopher]

Massivily Year End Review
http://www.massively.com/2008/12/29/gamerdna-and-massively-look-back-at-the-mmo-year-in-review/

[GoldyGopher]

What are these big title games that are gone? DDO launched to much hype, much expectation, and inside the first month it tanked miserably - server merges where not far behind (certainly on the quick side of the scale), and it is hard to argue (fan or otherwise) that the game has done anything but decline from launch (first rapidly and of late more steadily). Subs are among the lowest of all MMOs, certainly the lowest of all marquee IP MMOs. So again, how is this not a fail in the same way as those others?

Since DDO was released there have been 60 titles released with approximately 7 released that we can major titles and another 3 expansions to Guild Wars.

NCSoft has Announced Tabula Risa is closing permanently in February. Flagship Studios is or has closed up Hellgate:London, I forget which it is.

Conan and Warhammer have not lived upto anyone's expectations in terms of sales. Failcom, a publicly traded company, lost 3 million dollars last quarter. Mythic acknowledged that over 70% of initial accounts have not renewed.

That leaves Lord of the Rings Online, Vanguard: Saga of the Heroes, and Pirates of the Burning Seas as what I would call major releases.
Both Vanguard and Pirates are doing what Turbine did, consolidate and work to improve experience. However as my friends who played Vanguard told me, it might be to little to late for that game.
The only game that anyone might call a success is LotRO.

[query]

and "consice" as always :p

Oh, gHzSWB, I'd LOVE to know how you know what the subscription numbers are since they are not realeased to ANYBODY.


Remember, we tore this guy a new one due to inaccurate information he was basing this game on.

If you have accutrate information, please list your sources.

If this is your opinion, please state that.

[CSFurious]

how about DDO equals a C-student, i.e., just getting by

i do not equate that with success

i predict that in 2009 that the GPA better go up to at least B+


That's easy.

DDO launched with some issues the four games in the article launched with.

Turbine got on said issues and DDO stabilized.

These bigger, more-hyped titles are gone or going.

I call job well done.

If success is not the word, how 'bout "not fail"? :D

[Venar]

It"s just a review by some dude.
Any of you guy's opinion is as good as his.
Oh, look, some dude with a pseudonyme made a review on a blog!

He is obviously a frustrated beta tester who thinks, like so many beta testing noobs i seen over the years, that beta-testing a game somewhat makes you a developper and hands you the right to redesign the game.
Like every other testers who dont know their rolls, he was ignored. And now he is happy the ships sank.

waaaaa, waaaa, i told AoC how to fix the game, and they did not listen, so i am happy they crash! waaaaaaa!

[Venar]

That second article, on massively, is a lot more researched.

[Icharius]

so I posted at that article as well, that guy is just a contradiction :D

[DoctorWhofan]

However, alienating the press, even a blogger, might be a bad idea. Positive reforcement and encouragement to play and judge for themselves is better. Remember, we want people to write about DDO, so the effect of "dead" and "dying" is gone.

[Dirac]

Massivily Year End Review
http://www.massively.com/2008/12/29/gamerdna-and-massively-look-back-at-the-mmo-year-in-review/

Am I mistaken, or is all the data for this and other analysis taken from the GamerDNA source, which is a self-reporting website?

[DoctorWhofan]

Am I mistaken, or is all the data for this and other analysis taken from the GamerDNA source, which is a self-reporting website?

yeah, and they fulluy admit it isn'tthat accurate. However, if enough DDO subscribers join, it may help get the news out that we are not dead.

[GoldyGopher]

Am I mistaken, or is all the data for this and other analysis taken from the GamerDNA source, which is a self-reporting website?

Yes it is self reporting, and noted in commentary and reason one game scores so high. UA I think without checking. However it is better than pure guesses that some do.

[silverraven]

lol after reading that article I think that I now feel sorry for him because he's getting his butt handed to him.

[LawstCawz]

I agree that the author has obviously not played WAR. That game is pretty bad, and the subscriptions are just nosediving.

Truer words have not been spoken. The scenario grind is awful, and the merit based loot system is so buggy you get screwed most of the time. Feels great when someone just walks up at the end of a castle siege and ranks 1st for no reason.

[stoc]

What are these big title games that are gone? DDO launched to much hype, much expectation, and inside the first couple months it tanked miserably - server merges where not far behind (certainly on the quick side of the scale), and it is hard to argue (fan or otherwise) that the game has done anything but decline from launch (first rapidly and of late more steadily). Subs are among the lowest of all MMOs, certainly the lowest of all marquee IP MMOs. So again, how is this not a fail in the same way as those others? Face it - if Turbine didn't have LotRO to prop up DDO then DDO would have been shut down long ago.

Hellgate - OK, a fail - but that is a major big title how? Pirates of the Burning Sea - again, fail but how is that a big title by any definition and how is it now any better off than DDO? Conan is the only big blockbuster title in that grouping and while it certainly was a huge bust in terms of how good and subs (from what we can tell) it easily has more people playing than DDO ever has. I mean is it OK to cast stones from your glass house if you failed at launch to reach near millions of subs and then quickly dropped to a few thousand? As if it is better to have no early success followed by no mid or late success than to open to smashing success and then fall off to a poor showing? DDO is what DDO is - but to comment about it as anything other than on of those big fails is just silly - DDO, along with Vanguard and AoC and the eventual collapse of SWG due to SoE stupidity rank right up there at the top of any objective lists of MMO epic failures.

Since you hate DDO and are leaving; Can I have your stuff? :)

[Rog]

HEY GANG lets not **** the op off we invited a critic into are house and we dont know who he is so lets chill on the flames and lets the man judge us by what he see in the game not are blow torchs!

[DoctorWhofan]

HEY GANG lets not **** the op off we invited a critic into are house and we dont know who he is so lets chill on the flames and lets the man judge us by what he see in the game not are blow torchs!

agreed.

[DoctorWhofan]

What are these big title games that are gone? DDO launched to much hype, much expectation, and inside the first couple months it tanked miserably - server merges where not far behind (certainly on the quick side of the scale), and it is hard to argue (fan or otherwise) that the game has done anything but decline from launch (first rapidly and of late more steadily). Subs are among the lowest of all MMOs, certainly the lowest of all marquee IP MMOs. So again, how is this not a fail in the same way as those others? Face it - if Turbine didn't have LotRO to prop up DDO then DDO would have been shut down long ago.

Hellgate - OK, a fail - but that is a major big title how? Pirates of the Burning Sea - again, fail but how is that a big title by any definition and how is it now any better off than DDO? Conan is the only big blockbuster title in that grouping and while it certainly was a huge bust in terms of how good and subs (from what we can tell) it easily has more people playing than DDO ever has. I mean is it OK to cast stones from your glass house if you failed at launch to reach near millions of subs and then quickly dropped to a few thousand? As if it is better to have no early success followed by no mid or late success than to open to smashing success and then fall off to a poor showing? DDO is what DDO is - but to comment about it as anything other than on of those big fails is just silly - DDO, along with Vanguard and AoC and the eventual collapse of SWG due to SoE stupidity rank right up there at the top of any objective lists of MMO epic failures.

We are on a game (you are playing btw) that HAS improve itself since start, HAS continued to grow, HAS (most likely) a stable population. It is still running, and new stuff being added, from what we have heard is slowly growing. Hmmmm. Not an epic failure. A failure at the beginning, but it IS still going and GROWING, maybe not with WoW numbers but it is still alive.

Not quite ready to pull the plug on the life support machines, especially when there is increased brain activity and movement.

Besides, why are YOU playing, if it is such an epic failure?

[Milolyen]

We are on a game (you are playing btw) that HAS improve itself since start, HAS continued to grow, HAS (most likely) a stable population. It is still running, and new stuff being added, from what we have heard is slowly growing. Hmmmm. Not an epic failure. A failure at the beginning, but it IS still going and GROWING, maybe not with WoW numbers but it is still alive.

Not quite ready to pull the plug on the life support machines, especially when there is increased brain activity and movement.

Besides, why are YOU playing, if it is such an epic failure?

You forgot to point out that where if this failed the same as the others then how did it make it to (what will be) the three year mark and still going forward where some that were mentioned in the article pulled the plug without even makeing it a year. While I don't know AoC's or WAR's current state does it look like they will make it past the one year mark to even reach the two or three? Without Turbine releasing numbers we have no clue what the sub drop off rate was for DDO for comparison.

Milolyen

[Dirac]

Yes it is self reporting, and noted in commentary and reason one game scores so high. UA I think without checking. However it is better than pure guesses that some do.

I'm not sure. It may be worse, because the systematic errors will be so profound. As someone mentioned, any game can make a push to get their game numbers artifically high. Worse for us, probably, is that the relative percentage of those who post to such a thing will exponentially decrease with age. A game with an older playerbase will be dramatically underrepresented.

I'm not trying to rain on peoples' parade. If there is value to DDO to posting, responding, getting the message out in this way, then people should do it. I just find it difficult to understand why anyone would take such numbers seriously.

[DoctorWhofan]

You people are insane if you want to classify DDO as anything other than in the same category as Conan and some of those others. The OP said, "While DDO suffered some of the bad points referenced at startup, it soldiered through and has stabalised where much "bigger" titles failed. Well done." I think that is a ridiculous comment given that DDO is in much the same as most of those big failed titles (and FYI, being the only official D&D game makes you one of those "big titles"). Yes, DDO hasn't closed - but not closing is a far, far cry from being a success or having a growing and thriving game.

People playing games in glass house shouldn't toss stones is all I am saying - DDO might still be open but that is about all it has on the most epic of epic failures and I would seriously doubt if DDO would still be open had Turbine not figured out how to run it on the scraps and leftovers of LotRO.

Then, why are you here?

[gHzSWB]

You people are insane if you want to classify DDO as anything other than in the same category as Conan and some of those others. The OP said, "While DDO suffered some of the bad points referenced at startup, it soldiered through and has stabalised where much "bigger" titles failed. Well done." I think that is a ridiculous comment given that DDO is in much the same as most of those big failed titles (and FYI, being the only official D&D game makes you one of those "big titles"). Yes, DDO hasn't closed - but not closing is a far, far cry from being a success or having a growing and thriving game.

People playing games in glass house shouldn't toss stones is all I am saying - DDO might still be open but that is about all it has on the most epic of epic failures and I would seriously doubt if DDO would still be open had Turbine not figured out how to run it on the scraps and leftovers of LotRO.

[GorumT]

You people are insane if you want to classify DDO as anything other than in the same category as Conan and some of those others. The OP said, "While DDO suffered some of the bad points referenced at startup, it soldiered through and has stabalised where much "bigger" titles failed. Well done." I think that is a ridiculous comment given that DDO is in much the same as most of those big failed titles (and FYI, being the only official D&D game makes you one of those "big titles"). Yes, DDO hasn't closed - but not closing is a far, far cry from being a success or having a growing and thriving game.

People playing games in glass house shouldn't toss stones is all I am saying - DDO might still be open but that is about all it has on the most epic of epic failures and I would seriously doubt if DDO would still be open had Turbine not figured out how to run it on the scraps and leftovers of LotRO.


Pointed as posts go, but I'll field it.

What do you consider as successful in the realm of MMOs? Let's pretend WoW (World of Warcraft) is the most successful game on the MMO market. I know, big stretch of the imagination to think that about a game that has sold 7 Mill+ copies around the world.

So now that we have set that as the highest positive point peak of sales and popularity in the genre, we have to have a negative peak. Let's just say AoC (Age of Connan) as our lowest peak since it will be shutting down servers in February.

Now, for our little graph, let's get rid of all the "Play for free" MMOs.

So with that as our perameters I think it is safe to say that DDO has the possability of growth but is holding a nice spot in the median of the range.

Do we call DDO successful under this kind of relative information? Absolutly. DDO is not the highest consistant sales (such as WoW) but it is not in the tank like other games (AoC). Is there room for growth and improvement? Sure.

Now before you start saying "Lol, 3 years and no new expansions", remember that WoW's first expansion came out 2 years after the original game. EQ2 has Numerous expansions and is fareing only slightly better then DDO or LotrO in both sales and continued subscriptions.

So again, is DDO successful? Yes. Is it being well marketed? No. That is the biggest difference between Uber success stories like WoW and the moderate success of DDO.

[gHzSWB]

Pointed as posts go, but I'll field it.

What do you consider as successful in the realm of MMOs? Let's pretend WoW (World of Warcraft) is the most successful game on the MMO market. I know, big stretch of the imagination to think that about a game that has sold 7 Mill+ copies around the world.

So now that we have set that as the highest positive point peak of sales and popularity in the genre, we have to have a negative peak. Let's just say AoC (Age of Connan) as our lowest peak since it will be shutting down servers in February.

Now, for our little graph, let's get rid of all the "Play for free" MMOs.

So with that as our perameters I think it is safe to say that DDO has the possability of growth but is holding a nice spot in the median of the range.

Do we call DDO successful under this kind of relative information? Absolutly. DDO is not the highest consistant sales (such as WoW) but it is not in the tank like other games (AoC). Is there room for growth and improvement? Sure.

Now before you start saying "Lol, 3 years and no new expansions", remember that WoW's first expansion came out 2 years after the original game. EQ2 has Numerous expansions and is fareing only slightly better then DDO or LotrO in both sales and continued subscriptions.

So again, is DDO successful? Yes. Is it being well marketed? No. That is the biggest difference between Uber success stories like WoW and the moderate success of DDO.


You are insane, lol. DDO its peak had an estimated 80 or 90k subs and by now has most certainly dropped off to probably around 20k, maybe 30k, or so at best. It is EXACTLY like AoC except AoC actually sold at first like a blockbuster whereas DDO sold only minimally at first and tapered off from there. Yes, AoC is a bust - as is Pirates of the Burning Sea, Tabula Risa, and others but save AoC few of those hold a candle to DDO in terms of having a big name IP so it is specious at best to refer to AoC as a big flop while DDO is some kind of silent success. DDO has been on life support since month 2, it is nowhere near growing and at best reached a somewhat stable, albeit minimal, base. It is not advertised because advertising the game would be throwing good money after bad. Turbine, to their credit, has found a way to park DDO on the back burner living on LotROs hand me downs and keep it open, good for Turbine. That hardly equates to something I would be holding on to while ragging on other titles for being flops or whatnot.

[Rog]

You are insane, lol. DDO its peak had an estimated 80 or 90k subs and by now has most certainly dropped off to probably around 20k, maybe 30k, or so at best. It is EXACTLY like AoC except AoC actually sold at first like a blockbuster whereas DDO sold only minimally at first and tapered off from there. Yes, AoC is a bust - as is Pirates of the Burning Sea, Tabula Risa, and others but save AoC few of those hold a candle to DDO in terms of having a big name IP so it is specious at best to refer to AoC as a big flop while DDO is some kind of silent success. DDO has been on life support since month 2, it is nowhere near growing and at best reached a somewhat stable, albeit minimal, base. It is not advertised because advertising the game would be throwing good money after bad. Turbine, to their credit, has found a way to park DDO on the back burner living on LotROs hand me downs and keep it open, good for Turbine. That hardly equates to something I would be holding on to while ragging on other titles for being flops or whatnot.

asking if we are sane or not might not be the best question to ask you never know some of these folks might have been running around sewers as a kid with a sword killing gaint rats for exp. as the church screamed satinist:) as for ddo being a flop not sure. i do understand advertising would not be throwing good money after bad you want that look for uncle sam he has a monoply right now. america loves new thing and america believes what ever there told on tv for the most part if you tell them its great they come......look at china and the junk they sell why do we buy it even when they was drugging are little girls with a date drugs in form of toys becouse that how americans think do u buy made in china still?

[gHzSWB]

Mind you, I am not posting here to say DDO is a flop - really only Turbine can classify DDO as such. But if someone, such as the OP, is going to snicker at the likes of AoC and others game he might first consider that DDO is more like those games than he might have considered, if not worse than some.

[Kistilan]

Mind you, I am not posting here to say DDO is a flop - really only Turbine can classify DDO as such. But if someone, such as the OP, is going to snicker at the likes of AoC and others game he might first consider that DDO is more like those games than he might have considered, if not worse than some.

Well, I know some of Turbine's History...

IF DDO were a flop, they would be pulling the plug June 2009 instead of developing Half-Orc, Half-Elf & Druids as well as level 20 in the next mod and PrEs, etc.

Case: Asheron's Call vs Asheron's Call 2. Asheron's Call 2 was viewed as a great achievement and lended many of its own unique aspects in crafting and combat to the later VERY SUCCESFUL Everquest 2 and World of Warcraft. However, after the release in approximately June 2002, Asheron's Call 2 was warmly received for a month -- and then a few months into it the players began migrating back to Asheron's Call (and later Star Wars Galaxies & Horizons and eventually World of Warcraft) due to the fact that AC2 was a little buggy at release, was much like the original Asheron's Call and the players found they were not needing the transition when they could simply play Asheron's Call 1.

That setting up history, Turbine gave the game 3 years and 6 months before officially pulling the plug. They slowed development to a trickle in the end and only FIXED things, like minor technical deficiencies in programming (instead of releasing content or generating new versions ie NPE, outdoor wilderness, etc). In the end they announced a month or two out to December 2005 of the game's final day & let the players have their good-byes and final adventures on AC2.

Now, with the vector that DDO is currently set upon, there is NO WAY it is on life support. It may not be World of Warcraft in numbers or Everquest, etc., but it's certainly not on life support. It's doing fine.

Lastly, a lot of players consistently cite that Turbine runs only 2 games -- they run 3, Asheron's Call 1 from 1999-Present (with populations apparently worthy of keeping servers live with updates every month!) August 2008 was their 100th Free Publish in Asheron's Call.

[GorumT]

You are insane, lol. DDO its peak had an estimated 80 or 90k subs and by now has most certainly dropped off to probably around 20k, maybe 30k, or so at best. It is EXACTLY like AoC except AoC actually sold at first like a blockbuster whereas DDO sold only minimally at first and tapered off from there. Yes, AoC is a bust - as is Pirates of the Burning Sea, Tabula Risa, and others but save AoC few of those hold a candle to DDO in terms of having a big name IP so it is specious at best to refer to AoC as a big flop while DDO is some kind of silent success. DDO has been on life support since month 2, it is nowhere near growing and at best reached a somewhat stable, albeit minimal, base. It is not advertised because advertising the game would be throwing good money after bad. Turbine, to their credit, has found a way to park DDO on the back burner living on LotROs hand me downs and keep it open, good for Turbine. That hardly equates to something I would be holding on to while ragging on other titles for being flops or whatnot.

So are you jaded against DDO fans or just trying to be an ass because we all aren't supporting your "Superior" opininons? Your opening to every post showing you evidence of the games continuing existance and growth are only met with a mild hostility on your part.

So let me recap. According to the slopeing graph that I offered you, it is obvious that DDO is neither on "Life support" or a "All time great" of games.

It is foolish of you or anyone else to lump it into the same category as failing games like AoC. It is just as foolish to say that DDO is amoungst the same caliber of games in sales and popularity as WoW or EQ2.

DDO is doing fine and will grow as it's popularity grows, which will only occure if there is more advertising, which it appears will not occure any time soon. Without growth in popularity, it will simply stay the way it is. Just like EQ2 is staying the way it is for the most part (even with expansions) due to the die hards that stay with it.

[gHzSWB]

It isn't about the success or failure of DDO, or inflated superior opinions, or anything of the sort. It is about the original characterization by the OP that woe be to the big title flops like AoC and others while DDO is sitting pretty. I think that is a bit silly given the reality that DDO has been anything but a big hit and that it, like AoC and others, is a big title that didn't meet the expectations of the majority of gamers. Again, Turbine has kept it up and keep it going - good for Turbine and the fans playing. But let's be real - DDO is hardly a raving success or even any different than AoC or any other big title MMO that launches to great expectations only to fade quickly into obscurity.


It is foolish of you or anyone else to lump it into the same category as failing games like AoC. It is just as foolish to say that DDO is amoungst the same caliber of games in sales and popularity as WoW or EQ2.

DDO is doing fine and will grow as it's popularity grows, which will only occure if there is more advertising, which it appears will not occure any time soon. Without growth in popularity, it will simply stay the way it is. Just like EQ2 is staying the way it is for the most part (even with expansions) due to the die hards that stay with it.

Come on - DDO is growing? You state this based on what? Are there more servers today than when the game launched? Absolutely not. Are there more instances on the existing servers as time passes? No, aside from the rise and tide of the holidays so far as I can see the last couple months (since I came back with MOD 8) have been pretty steady save an early bluster of activity around the time the MOD came out and a slight tapering off as the month passed. Turbine had to slash the 'box' price to $10 and the monthly sub to $10, both good moves I believe, but certainly not things you do if the game is growing steadily and healthy as you seem to try to suggest it is.

DDO is a niche game, a very niche game. It has garnered a loyal set of fans who number just enough to keep it going so long as Turbine gets a new MOD out every 4 to 5 months to keep the grind going. More power to Turbine and to those fans. But in every external way you could look at DDO it is every bit the flop that AoC or other such games are in so far as it was a big name IP, much anticipated, much hyped game that released to big dissapointments and massive cancellations post launch. DDO may still be open, it may stay open for some time - but in and of itself that is hardly enough to label DDO some big success while laughing at games like AoC and others that may well chug along for a couple years provided they find a way to satisfy that core set of players.

[GoldyGopher]

What makes a major release when it comes to MMOs, while for me it is all about money. The amount of money spent to bring a new MMO to life. To me if a game costs more than $20 million than it is a major release, most cost less than $10 million but a few cost more much more. While the most game companies attempt to keep the amount secret it was not much of a secret when they release the numbers to improve hype. Tabula Rasa, $106 Million Dollars and 5 years to develop; Remember Age of Conan, game of the year in 2006 and 2007 (sorry couldn’t help myself) well it cost $39 Million and four years to develop before it was released in 2008. Vanguard $35 to $40 million and four years in development. Warhammer Age of Reckoning is rumored to cost $75 Million and three years. Hellgate:London, somewhere around $50 Million and three plus years in development.
There is no question all of those are flops, Vanguard the smallest flop here, but Tabula Rasa lost almost $100 million dollars over the 15 months it was open, wait 13 months it still has two months before closing.
Yet DDO was much lower cost and only two years in development; $25 million is rumored but I can’t confirm.
Now when it comes to the size of the IP, LotRO, Harry Potter, Star Wars, Star Trek, DC Comics, Disney, and Fantasy Football I would assume are larger than DDO. What do you think? Hey Conan, you know the one from the 1930s with twenty million copies in print, a couple dozen movies, four or five TV series, and literally dozens of other entries might be larger IP than D&D, it will be close. Now in comparison to the other IP released only Tabula Rasa and Vanguard would be smaller than D&D, the rest are either similar size or larger in my opinion.
Richard Garriott’s name itself was worth $100 million I believe is the quote when it comes to MMOs. Well I guess that is $100 million loss.

Turbine has never released subscription number for any of it games; neither good nor bad numbers. Anyone who claims to have some kind of insider information or subscription data is either lying or making it up. Hell I think DDO has 1 Billion Toons this month, well if you count all those slaughtered kobolds and scores of Arraetrikos killed today.

Now do I think DDO is successful in terms say comparison to WoW subscription numbers, no it isn’t; heck there isn’t a western MMO in its stratosphere. Do I think DDO is successful in comparison to Tabula Rasa, yes DDO is incredibly successful. The problem is DDO is somewhere in the middle. It isn’t greatly successful nor is it a flop or lost cause. As someone once said “It is what it is.”

DDO is successful enough that Turbine continues to invest money into the game and to me that’s good because I enjoy playing the game.

[GorumT]

It isn't about the success or failure of DDO, or inflated superior opinions, or anything of the sort. It is about the original characterization by the OP that woe be to the big title flops like AoC and others while DDO is sitting pretty. I think that is a bit silly given the reality that DDO has been anything but a big hit and that it, like AoC and others, is a big title that didn't meet the expectations of the majority of gamers. Again, Turbine has kept it up and keep it going - good for Turbine and the fans playing. But let's be real - DDO is hardly a raving success or even any different than AoC or any other big title MMO that launches to great expectations only to fade quickly into obscurity.



Come on - DDO is growing? You state this based on what? Are there more servers today than when the game launched? Absolutely not. Are there more instances on the existing servers as time passes? No, aside from the rise and tide of the holidays so far as I can see the last couple months (since I came back with MOD 8) have been pretty steady save an early bluster of activity around the time the MOD came out and a slight tapering off as the month passed. Turbine had to slash the 'box' price to $10 and the monthly sub to $10, both good moves I believe, but certainly not things you do if the game is growing steadily and healthy as you seem to try to suggest it is.

DDO is a niche game, a very niche game. It has garnered a loyal set of fans who number just enough to keep it going so long as Turbine gets a new MOD out every 4 to 5 months to keep the grind going. More power to Turbine and to those fans. But in every external way you could look at DDO it is every bit the flop that AoC or other such games are in so far as it was a big name IP, much anticipated, much hyped game that released to big dissapointments and massive cancellations post launch. DDO may still be open, it may stay open for some time - but in and of itself that is hardly enough to label DDO some big success while laughing at games like AoC and others that may well chug along for a couple years provided they find a way to satisfy that core set of players.

I think you undermind the extent of growth since the games release.

You asked if there are any more instances, yes there are. Any new features compared to release? Absolutly.

The fact this game is NOT closeing any time soon certainly sets it apart from AoC or any of those that ARE closeing soon. It seems to me, having read your arguments, that you have not TRIED DDO since it first released. I have, and the new changes are amazingly good compared to what the game was upon release when I opened my account, and subsequently closed it 30 days later. I came back not knowing what to expect other then what I had experienced on release. Can you say you came back with the same open-mindedness?

It seems to me, that you, like many other reviewers, refuse to give credit where credit is due. You looked at the game when it released, then decided to garbage can it ever since. You have been hopeing to validate this opinion by the game tanking the way AoC has. Yet, it hasn't. Instead of rereviewing the game like any "Credible" journalist when offered new information, you simply keep to your own misconceptions. Regardless of having resubscribed.

I will agree that the game is very much a niche game, but so was Warcraft before it was turned into a MMO. Perhaps with the right kind of press coverage and marketing, this game could equal EQ2 at least. Sadly, I doubt that will happen anytime soon.

As for more servers, no, there are none. But maybe if they began getting the props they deserve from wannabe reviewers, they would get the incentive to open more servers.

[gHzSWB]

I think you undermind the extent of growth since the games release.

Sorry, but if you think this game has grown since release you are simply delusional. I was here the first month - I know where it started and I know where it was the day after the first 30 days ran out and where it has gone over time since then. DDO has only a fraction of the people palying now as played at its peak, unquestionably.



You asked if there are any more instances, yes there are. Any new features compared to release? Absolutly.


Again, BS. I recall those first weeks with dozens of instances of common areas across many more servers than there are now. today - peak times you are rarely seeing more than a couple/few instances of common areas if even that.


As for more servers, no, there are none. But maybe if they began getting the props they deserve from wannabe reviewers, they would get the incentive to open more servers.

I think good things get attention on their own merits. DDO has its good qualities and its bad qualities but whatever its current state of success or failure it is where it is based on its merits, plain and simple.


It seems to me, that you, like many other reviewers, refuse to give credit where credit is due. You looked at the game when it released, then decided to garbage can it ever since. You have been hopeing to validate this opinion by the game tanking the way AoC has. Yet, it hasn't. Instead of rereviewing the game like any "Credible" journalist when offered new information, you simply keep to your own misconceptions. Regardless of having resubscribed.

Uhm, I offered no review of the game - no opinion of how good I think it is or is not. I only said it is ridiculous to sit here and lauch at AoC and other flops when by most reasonable estimations DDO could be considered as big a flop as they are. I think the game is really fun for a month, maybe 6 weeks - then the lack of content and repitition of content starts to wear thin. So I have had a few stints with the game going from pre-launch for a month and a half and leaving for some time and then coming back for a month or so a few times here and there.


Now do I think DDO is successful in terms say comparison to WoW subscription numbers, no it isn’t; heck there isn’t a western MMO in its stratosphere. Do I think DDO is successful in comparison to Tabula Rasa, yes DDO is incredibly successful. The problem is DDO is somewhere in the middle. It isn’t greatly successful nor is it a flop or lost cause. As someone once said “It is what it is.”

DDO is successful enough that Turbine continues to invest money into the game and to me that’s good because I enjoy playing the game.

I grant you DDO is a success in comparison to those MMOs launched and closed, but with Tabula Risa being the only semi big name on meeting that description it seems a pretty loose definition of success and hardly reason to be casting stones as a DDO fan.

Now I will agree with you on one thing, the point of DDO's marketing. I think the packaging and marketing of DDO is as much to blame for its failure or lack of raving success as anything. DDO, for all its good qualities, really is not a very good MMO. It really is not even and MMO in the sense of what the public expectation of an MMO is. It is very good at certain things though and had Turbine been more creative in the beginning on how it packaged and sold DDO it probably would have been received much better and maybe had more success. But in boxing the game for $50 and charging $15 a month for a game with hardly enough content to last a couple weeks for many MMO players they really shot themselves in the foot. I think if they had done something like $29 for the box and $7.95 a month to start they might have had a different reception and more time to show they where committed to regular content updates. Heck, even a Guild Wars type business model charging $50 for the box with no monthly fee but then regular update packages at $30 or so would have made more sense then the traditional MMO fee structure for a game anything but a traditional MMO.

[GorumT]

Sorry, but if you think this game has grown since release you are simply delusional. I was here the first month - I know where it started and I know where it was the day after the first 30 days ran out and where it has gone over time since then. DDO has only a fraction of the people palying now as played at its peak, unquestionably.




Again, BS. I recall those first weeks with dozens of instances of common areas across many more servers than there are now. today - peak times you are rarely seeing more than a couple/few instances of common areas if even that.



I think good things get attention on their own merits. DDO has its good qualities and its bad qualities but whatever its current state of success or failure it is where it is based on its merits, plain and simple.



Uhm, I offered no review of the game - no opinion of how good I think it is or is not. I only said it is ridiculous to sit here and lauch at AoC and other flops when by most reasonable estimations DDO could be considered as big a flop as they are. I think the game is really fun for a month, maybe 6 weeks - then the lack of content and repitition of content starts to wear thin. So I have had a few stints with the game going from pre-launch for a month and a half and leaving for some time and then coming back for a month or so a few times here and there.



I grant you DDO is a success in comparison to those MMOs launched and closed, but with Tabula Risa being the only semi big name on meeting that description it seems a pretty loose definition of success and hardly reason to be casting stones as a DDO fan.

Now I will agree with you on one thing, the point of DDO's marketing. I think the packaging and marketing of DDO is as much to blame for its failure or lack of raving success as anything. DDO, for all its good qualities, really is not a very good MMO. It really is not even and MMO in the sense of what the public expectation of an MMO is. It is very good at certain things though and had Turbine been more creative in the beginning on how it packaged and sold DDO it probably would have been received much better and maybe had more success. But in boxing the game for $50 and charging $15 a month for a game with hardly enough content to last a couple weeks for many MMO players they really shot themselves in the foot. I think if they had done something like $29 for the box and $7.95 a month to start they might have had a different reception and more time to show they where committed to regular content updates. Heck, even a Guild Wars type business model charging $50 for the box with no monthly fee but then regular update packages at $30 or so would have made more sense then the traditional MMO fee structure for a game anything but a traditional MMO.


I think in the end you and I are agreeing on some points, and disagreeing on others. Thanks for this spirited discussion. :)

[DoctorWhofan]

You forgot to point out that where if this failed the same as the others then how did it make it to (what will be) the three year mark and still going forward where some that were mentioned in the article pulled the plug without even makeing it a year. While I don't know AoC's or WAR's current state does it look like they will make it past the one year mark to even reach the two or three? Without Turbine releasing numbers we have no clue what the sub drop off rate was for DDO for comparison.

Milolyen

sorry. TOTAL blonde moment. :p

[DoctorWhofan]

Comparing a game at launch and a year or two down the road in population is first, very silly. Most (not all) games lose a chunk of their population that first few months. SO yeah, at start there WAS 7 instances of the Harbor on 15 servers. While I agree that we lost alot more than should have, we kept enough to be sustainable.


Hello? three years?


By what I have seen on three servers in the last 6 months is GROWTH. Rare was theday we had 2 instances, and thatwas when it was some special weekend +1 loot thing-ee. NOW, I see 2-3 (and on occasion 4) instances of the Harbor/marketplace during peak hours on THelanis (the other two, slightly less) And forthe off-peak-cuz-I-am-a-Aussie/Kiwi times? Almost 2.

IF this was a DYING game at start, due to whatever, IT ISN'T NOW

IF this game is DEAD NOW, why bother to plan for Epic? Mod 11?

IF this game is going no where, why bother with the NPE?

IF this game is to be compared to TR, AoC, etc. Fine, let it. But really, is it a flop? Is it?

AoC cut the servers not even a year into it. Still hasdn't fixed the problems that it had at start.

Warhammer still has serious issues and a major (maybe more than sustainable) drop in customers.

TR made it so you would never have to repeat, nor who you have any reason to play after cap. It killed itself.

DDO made major mistakes (funny a trend in most MMOs) but has corrected (most of)them, manage to keep a sustainable population through its lean years, and slowly but surely is now moving in an upward direction. Imagine if we had ADVERTISING. OMG.

DDO a MMORPG?

Massive? Here is were you can argue. What is massive?

Multiplayer? Geez, the game is set up for MORE THAN ONE PLAYER to finish most quests (except for the amazingly talented expirenced people.)

Online? duh.

Role-Playing? another duh.

Game? three times a charm.

I dunno, I think it's pretty big, not like WoW big (which still impresses me to this day) but it is huge. Is it like all the other MMOs? No. It's different. Is it to everyone's taste? NO. Because it is bucking a trend and is different, and inovative, makes it unsuccessful? Maybe if it was called TR. DDO is STILL here. SO I think it was (and maybe still is) ahead of its time.

Finally, calling us names doesn't appeal to our reasonable side. I still ask, why are you here?

[GovtMule]

But if someone, such as the OP, is going to snicker at the likes of AoC and others game he might first consider that DDO is more like those games than he might have considered, if not worse than some.


Don't put words in my mouth, brother. I never intended to come across as laughing up my sleeve at any other games.

Having re-read my OP, I still can't see how it could be interpreted as anything other than a pat-on-the-back for Turbine's good work on DDO.

[gHzSWB]

All I am saying is that 'sustainable' and 'stable' is hardly a position to be talking about other games as big time flops. Yes, AoC and others tanked and were big disappointments, but comparing them to DDO at the same point one could very reasonably argue that they are much more similar than dissimilar. DDO has found its niche and seem to be set to chug along and that is great - but with the exception of Hellgate and Tabula those other games are just as likely to do the same.

I also think you guys are forgetting one very important thing about DDO - LotRO. If LotRO did not exist then DDO would have very likely folded up shop long ago. You don't need access to source code and indside info to see that LotRO uses a good deal of the assets of DDO and with Turbine having LotRO up and going many of the same infrastructure parcells can be used for DDO for far less than if they only had DDO to run. Many joke about it but is is clearly true to a certain degree, DDO is run of the scraps and leftovers of LotRO.

[GovtMule]

I also think you guys are forgetting one very important thing about DDO - LotRO. If LotRO did not exist then DDO would have very likely folded up shop long ago. You don't need access to source code and indside info to see that LotRO uses a good deal of the assets of DDO and with Turbine having LotRO up and going many of the same infrastructure parcells can be used for DDO for far less than if they only had DDO to run. Many joke about it but is is clearly true to a certain degree, DDO is run of the scraps and leftovers of LotRO.

So?


I'm out on the subject. I did like the article tho. :(

[VonBek]

If success is not the word, how 'bout "not fail"? :D

No offense, but I think "not fail" is behind us.

Our responses to Ag's blog show resilience. Seems like our game reflects that as well. We may not be king of the hill (yet), but we're doing better than surviving. We're still standing when the sun comes up, and the road behind has grow a bit longer. We don't quite know what lies ahead, but something does.

That's a good place to start, in my book.

/salute

[Dirac]

Only Turbine has the real numbers on subscriptions: total and slope. Consider their action based on those numbers: a total revamp of the NPE. This is not an action of a company that thinks they have a dead game that they are just keeping around for the last subscribers to leave. Such a action would only make sense if they are seeing many new people to the game.

There does exist other real data the you and I can track: number and frequency of multiple instances of public areas. Following this closely will also give you an idea on changes to the real number of people who are logged into the game over time.

[EightyFour]

Now that I've thought about it, I'm glad that DDO is where it is as far as customer subscriptions. If you think about why WAR has dipped a little bit is because the new WoW expansion came out, duh right? WAR well pick back up once the WoW fans are tired of Lich King and they well head back to WAR to explorer some more tell WAR pulls in some more people with it's first expansion, when ever that well be.

But WAR and WOW are versions of the same game with a different theme.

Now when I think about the majority of WoW players, I think to myself, would I want those people over here playing this game. Sure that means more money, more staff, more content, but it also means that they are out there waiting to ruin my gaming experience. With all the LAWL and nOOb comments that are sure to come.

I think I like the way things are now.

[GorumT]

Now that I've thought about it, I'm glad that DDO is where it is as far as customer subscriptions. If you think about why WAR has dipped a little bit is because the new WoW expansion came out, duh right? WAR well pick back up once the WoW fans are tired of Lich King and they well head back to WAR to explorer some more tell WAR pulls in some more people with it's first expansion, when ever that well be.

But WAR and WOW are versions of the same game with a different theme.

Now when I think about the majority of WoW players, I think to myself, would I want those people over here playing this game. Sure that means more money, more staff, more content, but it also means that they are out there waiting to ruin my gaming experience. With all the LAWL and nOOb comments that are sure to come.

I think I like the way things are now.


LAWL, u n00b! I r teh Uberleetz gamerzorz! I wus a WoW playur for 4 years.

LOL, IM IN UR GAMEZ, KILLN UR MOBS!!!!1111!!!!!111!!!1

[Erchamion]

If it were up to me, I'd propose a paid expansion of $29.95, a simple, effective, cost efficient marketing of it, and use the money as follows: 1/3 on development; 1/3 on hardware upgrades; 1/3 marketing budget to gain more players. To me, a plan like this is required to bring the game up a notch and I doubt a single subscriber would hesitate supporting it knowing it would extend the life of the game.

[Venar]

I love this game, and i think it went a long way.
But once we get lvl 20, my wish would be for Turbine to invest in DDO2. Maybe in a new setting (greyhawk or forgotten realms).

[Uska]

I love this game, and i think it went a long way.
But once we get lvl 20, my wish would be for Turbine to invest in DDO2. Maybe in a new setting (greyhawk or forgotten realms).

DDO2 will be horrible as it will be based on 4E and a 4E realms would be even worse although a greyhawk I might be able to tolerate

[Uska]

You are insane, lol. DDO its peak had an estimated 80 or 90k subs and by now has most certainly dropped off to probably around 20k, maybe 30k, or so at best. It is EXACTLY like AoC except AoC actually sold at first like a blockbuster whereas DDO sold only minimally at first and tapered off from there. Yes, AoC is a bust - as is Pirates of the Burning Sea, Tabula Risa, and others but save AoC few of those hold a candle to DDO in terms of having a big name IP so it is specious at best to refer to AoC as a big flop while DDO is some kind of silent success. DDO has been on life support since month 2, it is nowhere near growing and at best reached a somewhat stable, albeit minimal, base. It is not advertised because advertising the game would be throwing good money after bad. Turbine, to their credit, has found a way to park DDO on the back burner living on LotROs hand me downs and keep it open, good for Turbine. That hardly equates to something I would be holding on to while ragging on other titles for being flops or whatnot.

I would really like to know where you are gettting any of your numbers and if its so bad why dont you leave? I think ddo had a a min at its peak at least double your numbers proably more and has much more then you say even now. If ddo wasnt profitable on its on merits turbine would drop it, I mean really.

[CrimsonEagle]

I would really like to know where you are gettting any of your numbers and if its so bad why dont you leave? I think ddo had a a min at its peak at least double your numbers proably more and has much more then you say even now. If ddo wasnt profitable on its on merits turbine would drop it, I mean really.

Not to agree or disagree with either of you.

This is the only chart that I have ever seen giving any reference to DDO's numbers.

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart3.html

Found at

http://www.mmogchart.com/charts/

under the MMOG Active Subscriptions: 0-120000

Now, where they get the information I do not know. Is it accurate, I dont know that either, but if I were to guess I would say it is pretty close.

Edit: I also note that it appears the last reading for DDO was around 2007. Lol...why....I dont know:)

I guess then the question would be if DDO has gained or lost anything substantial since this time.........if it was even accurate to begin with.

[Uska]

Not to agree or disagree with either of you.

This is the only chart that I have ever seen giving any reference to DDO's numbers.

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart3.html

Found at

http://www.mmogchart.com/charts/

under the MMOG Active Subscriptions: 0-120000

Now, where they get the information I do not know. Is it accurate, I dont know that either, but if I were to guess I would say it is pretty close.

Edit: I also note that it appears the last reading for DDO was around 2007. Lol...why....I dont know:)

I guess then the question would be if DDO has gained or lost anything substantial since this time.........if it was even accurate to begin with.

I really dont think that site is or was ever accurate

[CrimsonEagle]

I really dont think that site is or was ever accurate

*shrugs shoulders*

Then show me some more numbers.

[kudesnik]

You have to take into account all monsters - you think it's AI !
No ! it's real people playing that "other game" that being seen as monsters for us. :D
Especially dumb mobs are actually have special gold spammer subscription:)

DDO not for everyone and so we will never will get player count as WOW. But we better :)
However if turbine will go console ( with DDO ) it may boost population to the top.

[query]

But you oh blogtastic keep citing "I know this and that" based on your TRIAL at STARTUP and a TINY look now.


I won't use the word reporter since that suggests actually doing some fact-checking.


All you give is a verbose opinion disguised as "proof."

Yeah, and you know what you are with everybody having an opinion....


Since you decided to outright IGNORE my last posting, lemme repost it.


and "consice" as always :p

Oh, gHzSWB, I'd LOVE to know how you know what the subscription numbers are since they are not realeased to ANYBODY.


Remember, we tore this guy a new one due to inaccurate information he was basing this game on.

If you have accutrate information, please list your sources.

If this is your opinion, please state that.


So, in simple terms even a blogger could get: WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?

If you are using long past due data and using your opinion on the rest, please turn in your so-called credentials.

Your voice is one of the people who has to be right: Facts be forgotton as this was my experience as IT JUST WENT GOLD!


Yeah, some of us game vets do Beta testing too.
(SWG broke my heart in its radical revisions, yet it still is here.....but how: Since I HATED it and MANY left a few months in, it MUST be on life support right? What year of life support is that again...)

Just do us the courtesy of not calling yourself a journalist or reporter, instead an ametuer game reviewer who sometimes goes freelance and/or gets contracts.

And don't bother with the columnist word. I don't see any gamer mag online or off jumping at that honor if this is your attention to detail's limit.

But hey, what was I but open to your answer and you dump your waste on us not even citing legitamate proof.


Since I seek truth and at least ATTEMPT to confirm my discoveries, I guess I'm more of a writer/reporter than you are.


But don't worry, all those Diablo and other games can stoke your need to feel authoritative.

And if I ever do something that is for public publication in any article form, rest assured I will have it fact checked and proofread for spelling and grammar, something even if I err here I don't have to worry because I recognise even with much knowledge I am a hobbyist or AMATEUR ranking who just takes iniformational pride in his D&D game in any of its forms.

Good day Mr. Frost...or was it Mr. Nixion?

[GlassCannon]

*shrugs shoulders*

Then show me some more numbers.


The numbers change like waves on the tide. We're still in the first 20 years of MMO Gaming, it's still brand new. You shouldn't need numbers to tell you where to be and when, just go with your heart... do what you like and stick with it no matter what the fanbois and DOOOOOOOooOooooooooooooooooooooooooooOOOoOooOOOooO oOooOoOooooOOOoooooOOOm(Hope I did that right, does it meet Regulations?)-sayers do and say. Prove them wrong, and they will eat their harsh words. What you don't want to do is prove them right.

Start pitching offers to people to run with your characters in DDO, take them on an adventure and use General chat to follow the story. Help them get immersed, have a great time failing some quests, and just enjoy the game.

Edit: As for the rest of you, being serious about something is sometimes necessary, but you really need to stop being so d@mn hateful to one another about it. Yes, the game will survive. If it doesn't I will be one of the team that revives it. The dream will never fade.

[query]

Sometimes inner peace can take a holiday for a whoopa** can opening ceremony ;)

Oh, and I flew it by regs, we're allowing your saying of dread, but please limit your o's to 13 minimum and maximum next time. Good job on the redness.

If we ever get Marquee approval, we'll update it to flashing as well as running all around the border of the post.....we hope it drives the glumlords to total insanity and their ability to post stops altogether :p


The numbers change like waves on the tide. We're still in the first 20 years of MMO Gaming, it's still brand new. You shouldn't need numbers to tell you where to be and when, just go with your heart... do what you like and stick with it no matter what the fanbois and DOOOOOOOooOooooooooooooooooooooooooooOOOoOooOOOooO oOooOoOooooOOOoooooOOOm(Hope I did that right, does it meet Regulations?)-sayers do and say. Prove them wrong, and they will eat their harsh words. What you don't want to do is prove them right.

Start pitching offers to people to run with your characters in DDO, take them on an adventure and use General chat to follow the story. Help them get immersed, have a great time failing some quests, and just enjoy the game.

Edit: As for the rest of you, being serious about something is sometimes necessary, but you really need to stop being so d@mn hateful to one another about it. Yes, the game will survive. If it doesn't I will be one of the team that revives it. The dream will never fade.

[Tin_Dragon]

ya there was no mention of ddo at all kinda sad

At this point, any press is good press for DDO. Sheesh

[query]

at This Point, Any Press Is Good Press For Ddo. Sheesh

Qft