First Warforged, help please?

[Ciaran]

I was thinking about making a Warforged Ranger. The breakdown would be 1 Fighter/1 Wizard and 14 Ranger.

Starting stats (32 point):
16
16
14
10
12
6

Yes, the Wisdom is higher then needed so I might play around with that some. This character will be an Arcane Archer (have an idea for a Tempest build for another character) so he'll be focused on ranged but with the ability to TWF or S&B when necessary.

Wizard is there for Extend and to be able to self-heal between fights.

Right now I guess my biggest question is this: Which plating should I take? Composite will leave me a feat, but Mithril seems kind of intuitive for this guy. Suggestions? Thoughts?

Thanks!

[Impaqt]

Theres very little synergy in ranged WF Build... and your not going to take advantage of the WF Immunites as much inthat type of build....

Since Primary focus is ranged, I assume you'd be going Dex based. That will force you to take Weapon Finesse or be near useless in melee.

STR is too high, Dex is too low. WF have no enhancments to help ranged, TWF, or S&B Fighting styles either.

On a High dex character, you want Composite body though. You cantake Mithral to start.. That will give you some Extra AC at the low levels, But once your dex hits 26, Composite offers the same AC.

[Angelus_dead]

I was thinking about making a Warforged Ranger. The breakdown would be 1 Fighter/1 Wizard and 14 Ranger.
Warforged is pretty bad for ranger, and a wizard level is also bad for a ranger or fighter.

You're probably thinking the wizard ability is to cast Repair wands on yourself, but it's not worth it (even if it also helps get Arcane Archer). Your ranger knowledge of Cure wands will be close enough. (If you really wanted to use Repair, a bard/rogue level and UMD skill is better)

As for being a ranger, the warforged race means:
* No +4 dex bonus (like elf or halfling)
* No +2 bow/rapier attack/damage bonus (like elf)
* No +4 sneak attack damage (like halfling)
* Reduced healing from your own spells/wands
* -2 Wisdom means harder to cast spells
* No robes or outfits (some of which are awesome)

The warforged racial offense bonus is improved Power Attack, which is less effective for TWF and completely useless when shooting arrows.

I see that you want to do damage with arrows... basically that means you MUST be an elf, or at least a halfling.


Composite will leave me a feat, but Mithril seems kind of intuitive for this guy. Suggestions? Thoughts?
For a DDO character to take Mithril body is approximately never the right choice. If your dex is high be Composite, if it's low (and you want AC) be Adamantine. Mithril doesn't have a niche. Even if it didn't cost a feat it still might not be the right choice.

[Ciaran]

Meh. Good points - I knew it was an odd and probably non-optimal build, but didn't think about some of the things you guys pointed out.

A few notes though:

I wasn't planning on this build being in Ranged combat all the time, there's a lot of times where the AA I have now drops into melee because kiting mobs is annoying to the rest of the group and isn't always efficient or the best solution. The problem is how squishy my current AA is (Elf). Still, there are plenty of times where a mob is dropped before it reaches it me.

End game stats would look like this:

28 STR (16+4 level +6 item +2 Tome (Favor))
26 DEX (16+6 item +3 Enh +1 Tome)
24 CON (14+6 item +2 Enh +2 Tome (banked, but not sure I'd spend it on this guy))
16 INT
18 WIS
06 CHA

The Strength is sufficient as it'd reach a 30 from Ram's and the Dex could be improved with a Shroud item to be a 28, which will hit often enough in Ranged.

I disagree that Bard/Rogue levels for UMD would be worth it with a 6 CHA, at best my CHA would be a 12 which is a paltry +1 from the Stat before other bonuses. That 6 CHA represents a -10% success rate with anything I UMD if my math is right and the best I could get it would be +5% from the stat bonus. At 16 I would have base ranks in UMD of 17 +1 from a +6 CHA item, +3 from Cartouche, +4 GH, +2 GL...eh, it'd be enough for RSD wands around level 9-11 (when the success chance would be higher than the fail chance). Still, this build would do much better on an Elf, which is what my current AA is (no splashes of fighter/wizard) and the Wizard level would be unnecessary.

Oh well, I'll either scrap the idea or try it anyway, see how I like it.

Thanks for the input guys!

[Impaqt]

I disagree that Bard/Rogue levels for UMD would be worth it with a 6 CHA, at best my CHA would be a 12 which is a paltry +1 from the Stat before other bonuses. That 6 CHA represents a -10% success rate with anything I UMD if my math is right and the best I could get it would be +5% from the stat bonus. At 16 I would have base ranks in UMD of 17 +1 from a +6 CHA item, +3 from Cartouche, +4 GH, +2 GL...eh, it'd be enough for RSD wands around level 9-11 (when the success chance would be higher than the fail chance). Still, this build would do much better on an Elf, which is what my current AA is (no splashes of fighter/wizard) and the Wizard level would be unnecessary.


Its actually 19

19 Ranks
1 12 CHR
3 Cartouse
4 GH
2 Luck
--
29 UMD

thats Flawless Repair Serious Wands and 85% Repair Critical Put some CHR Skil on your Shroud Item and you can flawlessly use Cure Critical Wands and reasonably use Repair Scrolls.

29
1 +2 CHR TOme
6 Shroud Item
--
36
2 7 Fingered Gloves
--
38

95% Repair Scrolls...

[Ciaran]

Its actually 19

19 Ranks
1 12 CHR
3 Cartouse
4 GH
2 Luck
--
29 UMD

thats Flawless Repair Serious Wands and 85% Repair Critical Put some CHR Skil on your Shroud Item and you can flawlessly use Cure Critical Wands and reasonably use Repair Scrolls.

29
1 +2 CHR TOme
6 Shroud Item
--
36
2 7 Fingered Gloves
--
38

95% Repair Scrolls...

Edit - just double checked - it's 17 UMD, not 19. 19 ranks, but two of them were to get out of the negatives.

Still, the other drawbacks to a WF Ranger are enough to make me lose interest.

[Angelus_dead]

there's a lot of times where the AA I have now drops into melee because kiting mobs is annoying to the rest of the group and isn't always efficient or the best solution. The problem is how squishy my current AA is (Elf). Still, there are plenty of times where a mob is dropped before it reaches it me.
Ask yourself why your current character is squishy, and how a warforged would be any better.

The WF has +6 con meaning +48 hp at level 16. That's nice, but not awesome. It is counterbalanced by less AC and less healing- plus the bow hits less and for less damage, giving the monster more time to fight back.

Considering that archery doesn't do as much damage as melee or spells, you frequently won't have aggro in bigger fights (the only reason you have aggro now is if you start hitting before anyone else). When your group has 3-7 warriors beating down the boss, the archer's squishiness is irrelevant, but his DPS might still matter.

[Ciaran]

Ask yourself why your current character is squishy, and how a warforged would be any better.

The WF has +6 con meaning +48 hp at level 16. That's nice, but not awesome. It is counterbalanced by less AC and less healing- plus the bow hits less and for less damage, giving the monster more time to fight back.

Considering that archery doesn't do as much damage as melee or spells, you frequently won't have aggro in bigger fights (the only reason you have aggro now is if you start hitting before anyone else). When your group has 3-7 warriors beating down the boss, the archer's squishiness is irrelevant, but his DPS might still matter.

Believe it or not I actually do generate aggro often enough to warrant concern with my squishiness the times I have to drop into TWF when it's needed. I mean at level 9 my AA is under 200 HP, so I get my clock cleaned when I get aggro if I'm in melee. I usually don't swing or shoot first unless I'm sure I can drop whatever it is quickly (either before it gets to me or shortly after it gets to me). Still, when flanking and getting burst damage on mobs, such as ogres/trolls, etc when they hit me they hurt a lot.

I'll play around with the character some more I guess, it's been a while since I played my AA anyway, and see if I can take steps to generate less aggro and mitigate incoming damage.

But a WF wouldn't be any better off, you're right about that.

[Impaqt]

Edit - just double checked - it's 17 UMD, not 19. 19 ranks, but two of them were to get out of the negatives.

Still, the other drawbacks to a WF Ranger are enough to make me lose interest.

No. 19 ranks is 19 Ranks. If you Dont wear a CHR Item you would have a -2 Modifier. As soon as you Put a +6 Item on that -2 Changes to a +1 Modifier. So its 19 ranks +1 = 20 base. If you wanna do it your way you would start at 17 and then add 3 for your +6 CHR item.. Which works out the same as my example.

[hu-flung-pu]

Believe it or not I actually do generate aggro often enough to warrant concern with my squishiness the times I have to drop into TWF when it's needed. I mean at level 9 my AA is under 200 HP, so I get my clock cleaned when I get aggro if I'm in melee. I usually don't swing or shoot first unless I'm sure I can drop whatever it is quickly (either before it gets to me or shortly after it gets to me). Still, when flanking and getting burst damage on mobs, such as ogres/trolls, etc when they hit me they hurt a lot.

I'll play around with the character some more I guess, it's been a while since I played my AA anyway, and see if I can take steps to generate less aggro and mitigate incoming damage.

But a WF wouldn't be any better off, you're right about that.

10 base CON, is enough to make a difference if you neglect it on an Elf. Throw in the bonus 2 from enhancements, along with all the racial toughness enhancements, and it's pretty easy to see why it is that way.

Ignore angelus_dead's anti-Warforged bend. He has a serious hard on against Warforged. And anything he says, should be examined with his obvious slant, and agenda regarding Warforged.

Angelus_dead likes to say that a warforged has less healing, less healing from a cleric perhaps. But a wizard using reconstruct scrolls on a Warforged is godly with the stackable haste boost. And an Arcane Archer will be able to do that. Hit yourself with a repair serious wand to top yourself and other Warforged off. Throw in the Ranger levels, and you'll be able to use wands on everyone else.

Your AA should be using snare and spike growth for aggro control, so that you can slow them down enough so that your tank can hit intimidate and pull aggro off before it gets to you. If you need to drop in to melee make sure you have the right scrolls to ensure your survival. Blur, haste, stone skin from a wand, 10th level shield spell wand and you'll go a lot farther. What a Warforged brings is 2.5 classes that can potentially heal them, more hit points, better damage through power attack enhancements, immunities, and durability.

A Warforged might be better off if you're looking to overcome some of theproblems you're having with your current build. And for all intents and purposes, it'll be a lot better just for the fact that it can use Reconstruct Scrolls.

[Angelus_dead]

Ignore angelus_dead's anti-Warforged bend. He has a serious hard on against Warforged. And anything he says, should be examined with his obvious slant, and agenda regarding Warforged.
I will assume you are joking and only said such a stupid thing in an attempt at humor.


Angelus_dead likes to say that a warforged has less healing, less healing from a cleric perhaps.
Duhh..... less healing from a ranger. You know, "ranger", the class under consideration.


Hit yourself with a repair serious wand to top yourself and other Warforged off.
That's barely any use at low levels because of Healer's Friend, and more importantly it's a trap that doesn't scale to high levels where any kind of wand healing is obsolete.


Your AA should be using snare and spike growth for aggro control, so that you can slow them down enough so that your tank can hit intimidate and pull aggro off before it gets to you.
Ok, there you have given it away and proven you're not seriously offering advice, and instead are trying to trick a newbie into humiliating himself with self-defeating tactics.


A Warforged might be better off if you're looking to overcome some of theproblems you're having with your current build. And for all intents and purposes, it'll be a lot better just for the fact that it can use Reconstruct Scrolls.
Wiz1 doesn't known reconstruct scrolls. Even Bard1 has problems on them.

[Ciaran]

No. 19 ranks is 19 Ranks. If you Dont wear a CHR Item you would have a -2 Modifier. As soon as you Put a +6 Item on that -2 Changes to a +1 Modifier. So its 19 ranks +1 = 20 base. If you wanna do it your way you would start at 17 and then add 3 for your +6 CHR item.. Which works out the same as my example.

EDIT = D'oh! Nevermind, I forgot that I got another +1 to UMD once my CHA gets to 0. :o

Thanks!

[Angelus_dead]

Maybe you can help me understand where my math is wrong here.
It's not so much the math but the definitions of words.

You say things like "19 minus 2 equal 17 base". But that's simply not what the word "base" means. You also misused the word "rank" a lot, but it looks like you deleted that.

[Freeman]

Maybe you can help me understand where my math is wrong here.

19 ranks does not equal 19 base UMD, it equals 17 with the -2 modifier. 19 ranks is 19 ranks, but since two of those ranks are being spent to get me out of the negatives, it comes out to be a 17 base before raising CHA.

Equipping a +6 CHA item on it becomes a base of 18.

Level 1 (Rog) 4 ranks in UMD makes it 2 (-2 + 4 = 2)
Levels 2-16 1 whole rank in UMD makes it 15
Total of 17 base UMD.

CHA 06 +6 Item = 12 (+1 Mod)

17 + 1 = 18 UMD Base before any other bonuses.

You are doing Charisma mod twice, -2 for 6, and then +1 for 12 after the item. You only add the bonus once, so 19 Ranks + 1(12 Charisma with item) = 20. Don't mix the ranks and the charisma score.

Either do this:

19 ranks - 2 (6 base Charisma) + 3(+6 Cha item) = 20 OR 19 Ranks + 1 (12 Charisma).

[Ciaran]

That's barely any use at low levels because of Healer's Friend, and more importantly it's a trap that doesn't scale to high levels where any kind of wand healing is obsolete.

Obsolete? Maybe not the most efficient, but I wouldn't say wand healing at high levels is obsolete. Topping off between battles is useful and necessary sometimes. It's not likely to save a party though.


Ok, there you have given it away and proven you're not seriously offering advice, and instead are trying to trick a newbie into humiliating himself with self-defeating tactics.

I don't think he's intentionally trying to deceive me. Even if he is I don't care; I'm not completely new to Rangers and I've never seen Spike Growth be of much use except maybe for soloing lower level stuff.

As far as being humiliated - that's unlikely to happen, I mean it's not as if I would try some tactic I hadn't tried before in a PuG at a point where it could potentially cause a wipe or something.

[Ciaran]

It's not so much the math but the definitions of words.

You say things like "19 minus 2 equal 17 base". But that's simply not what the word "base" means. You also misused the word "rank" a lot, but it looks like you deleted that.

Yeah, I caught the error as well as misusing "rank" and corrected it - I was missing +1 from my CHA increasing to 10 which brought the skill modifier up +1 which gave me a total UMD skill mod of 19.

When I was saying "base" I was referring to my total skill mod before adding items, but you are right, actual base would be before subtracting or adding anything.


You are doing Charisma mod twice, -2 for 6, and then +1 for 12 after the item. You only add the bonus once, so 19 Ranks + 1(12 Charisma with item) = 20. Don't mix the ranks and the charisma score.

Either do this:

19 ranks - 2 (6 base Charisma) + 3(+6 Cha item) = 20 OR 19 Ranks + 1 (12 Charisma).

Yeah, that's what I was doing wrong - I was mixing the CHA mod with the ranks.

[Riggs]

The first main question is this; do you want to make a uber archer? or a melee type.

Second question, are you set on making a wf ranger and making it work? If yes then any discussion of what races are better for what are irrelevant. You will lose out on dex and ranged bonuses as a wf, but with the new DT docents will gain back that 4 dex ac loss, so it balances out not bad. if you really want a wf, thenplay a wf, if you want a uber archer, stay with the squishy elf...

A str ranger, wf or otherwise, wont really need to range much anyway. So maxing out dex isnt a huge issue.

I have a dwarf 13 ranger/2 ftr/1 wiz, and he is awesome. The wiz level is a big plus, extend, lots of sp, and level 10 shield wands (ac build as well as str). Stoneskin wands as well is a really nice addition.

If you want to make a wf, the wiz level is not a bad idea regardless, wand use is very useful. And 1 ftr for the feat is not a bad idea, although it might be better, if you want a higher wisdom, to take a monk level, get the ac bonus, and still get a feat.

Anything over 12 dex to start and your pretty much going to go with composite armor, as mithril costs a feat, and is only 5 armor vs 2 for base from no feats. Even a 12 dex base would get a 22+ at max, so mithril really isnt worth it.

26 dex is fine really, If you go 14/1 wiz/1 monk you will still get a feat, and get a better ac.

Otherwise as it is would be a good build. You will find with a 28 str and rams that melee is going to be way more effective than ranged for most things. Add in the -4 to ac when you have a bow in hand and something is in melee and whipping out 2 khopeshes or longswords or whatever will be a really good idea most of the time. (It is not common knowledge about the -4 ac, and I see a lot of rangers get pounded as soon as something gets close, and they keep firing with the bow while something is in melee range)

Immunity to level drain from beholders is pretty handy, and fatigue..poison, disease....thats several item slots for immunities you can save and have good items for.

The healing thing isnt a huge issue unless you run with bad clerics, and if you get DT armor and the 20% healing amp, or hound bracers, you will heal pretty close anyway.

Will it be super uber compared to another race for a ranger? No but it will be fun. And about as good in most things, and as long as its fun thats the big thing. (Killing is important too, it is way more fun than dying).