Paladin: Defender of Siberys

[Eladrin]

Defender of Siberys I
Prereqs: Level 6 Paladin, Paladin Bulwark of Good I, Paladin Resistance of Good I, Paladin Courage of Good I, Paladin Focus of Good I, Paladin Paladin Armor Class Boost I, and any one of the following: Tower Shield Proficiency, Shield Mastery, or Combat Expertise.
Benefit: Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement grants you 2 additional Turn attempts, additional armor class when blocking with a shield, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields by 1, and the ability to enter a defensive stance or to create a Magic Circle Against Evil effect.

Defender of Siberys I: Defensive Stance
You may expend a Paladin armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +2 Sacred bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +1 Sacred bonus on all saves, a +2 Dodge bonus to Armor Class, and produce 50% more hate with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move at one quarter speed.

Defender of Siberys I: Magic Circle
You may expend a turn attempt to produce a Magic Circle Against Evil effect.

Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Prereqs: Level 12 Paladin, Defender of Siberys I, Paladin Bulwark of Good II, Paladin Resistance of Good II, and any of: Paladin Rally I, Paladin Divine Righteousness I, Paladin Toughness II
Benefit: Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement grants you an additional Lay on Hands use per rest, 25% increased hate generation, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields and heavy armor by 1, and the ability to enter an improved defensive stance or to produce a Mass Shield of Faith effect.

Defender of Siberys II: Improved Defensive Stance
You may expend a Paladin armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +3 Sacred bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +2 Sacred bonus on all saves, a +3 Dodge bonus to Armor Class, and produce 100% more hate with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move at one third speed.

Defender of Siberys II: Mass Shield of Faith
You may expend a turn attempt to produce a Mass Shield of Faith effect.

Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Prereqs: Level 18 Paladin, Defender of Siberys II, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, Paladin Resistance of Good III, and any Paladin Faith II enhancement.
Benefit: Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement increases the strength of all of your defensive auras, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields and medium or heavy armor by 1, and grants the ability to enter a superior defensive stance or to defy your enemies in a glorious stand against evil.

Defender of Siberys III: Superior Defensive Stance
You may expend a Paladin armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +4 Sacred bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +3 Sacred bonus on all saves, a +4 Dodge bonus to Armor Class, and produce 200% more hate with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move at half speed.

Defender of Siberys III: Glorious Stand
You may expend a turn attempt to make a glorious stand against your enemies. For a short duration of time, you gain DR 20/epic, take reduced damage from elemental and negative energy, receive double healing from positive energy, and are immune to secondary effects of attacks such as 'wounding' or 'vorpal'. Each time you take damage, you gain the effects of a Cure Light Wounds spell.

[Tolero]

*singing* oh holy warrior...with magic circle-thingy-against-evil brightly shiiiining....

[Original]

Think I will finally roll a Pally :)

[Mhykke]

Looks good, but honestly, what's with the Faith II enhancement prereqs? You already require courage of good, focus of good, ac boost, and a feat (along with the other prereqs that most paladins take).

They don't make sense from a connection perspective (why should a paladin defender make sense only if that paladin took the vulkoor faith line, for example), they don't make sense from a game mechanic perspective (requiring these ap's spent on a class that is desperate for ap's, more than most). And now it looks like all Paladin PrE's are going to need Faith II's????

[Impaqt]

-sigh- can we PLEASE get a bump to our actual Intimidate instead of these "Increased hate from Melee Attacks" THing?

[Aspenor]

nice job. looks like the AC pally is back

[The_Phenx]

I sense a rout of paladin intimitanks.

Nice stuff Eladrin.

[RavenStormclaw]

Holy heck,

I think my Palidin just fell in love. This line seems best by far. I forsee many glorius stands in my futres!

[Zenako]

Are the max dex bonuses limits on armor cumulative or do you just expand the range from Tower (6), heavy (12) and finally medium armor (18th)? If so just getting 1 does not seem a great benefit (assuming you have the dex to take advantage of the increased limits). Also since Mithril Full Plate is "medium" you would not get any advantage until 18th? is this the intended result?

[Angelus_dead]

Defender of Siberys I: Defensive Stance
You may expend a Paladin armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +2 Sacred bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +1 Sacred bonus on all saves, a +2 Dodge bonus to Armor Class, and produce 50% more hate with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move at one quarter speed.
That is about as expected. Two suggestions:
1. If you have any plans to add another source of a Sacred bonus to strength, Defensive Stance should probably be changed to a feat or untyped bonus so it can stack. (Think about how Barb Rage stacks with the Rage spell, and why that's better than the alternative)

2. The speed penalty shouldn't stack with other penalties (Slow, devil chains, etc).

[maddmatt70]

How long do the defensive stances last? I am guessing not just 20 secs like a typical armor boost would last? This prestige class looks pretty good if the defensive stance lasts a decent amount of time. The preques are actually less stringent then the hunter of the dead and knights of the chalice paladin prestige enhancements because nearly all defensive pallys will take bulwark of good and the aura saves one isn't a bad one to have.

I was kind of hoping that tempest would have been released there are just so many people out there making builds dependent on 6 or 12 levels of ranger and it would be nice to let those people know what is going to be the right # of levels of ranger to take. Some people may get mad about a change to tempest, but hey the less people that get mad the better and the longer you wait more people will get mad..

[Deathseeker]

Man, at first I was doing the happy dance for my Ftr 10 / Pal 6 Intimitank. Then I saw the "glorius stand" thing. Holy cow, that's monsterous! To reroll or not to reroll...decisions, decisions...

[Deathseeker]

Anyone know if these dodge bonuses will or won't stack with the chaos gaurd/ chattering ring/Icey Raiments/Dragontouched? Im guessing they wont based on previous dev posts on dodge bonus stacking...

[GhostNull]

Hmm, seems so far that all the tier 3 Paladin PrE's will have a Faith II enhancement for a prereq.

For duration, it better not be another "1-minute only" clicky, Paladins have too many of those already.

I am glad to see that the player will be able to move around while in Defensive Stance. Also, will the "hate" that's generated from DS stack with Divine Righteousness?

[sephiroth1084]

Wow! This looks AWESOME! I was really afraid that I may feel compelled to reroll my main as either a pure paladin or a paladin 18/fighter 2, and this looks tempting as hell. Not so much a direct derivative of the Defender of Sealatiel as a combination of that and the dwarven defender.

Not too thrilled about the movement rate reduction (means I'll definitely have to try to fit in striders somewhere), but the hate generation may make up for it. Still not sure if I would consider rolling a paladin without at least a 1-level splash for intimidate though--hate generation is good, but being able to grab multiple enemies at one time...

Out of curiosity, do the multiple instances of the hate +% stack? That is, with Siberys II, do you generate 125% more hate when in the stance (25 from the ability itself, then 100 from the stance)?

Also, what will the duration be for these stances and such? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me that they will last longer than a minute! While they seem appropriate as short-term buffs, I'm tired of having to refresh nearly every ability I have every minute(or more frequently) as it stands now! Divine Favor, Haste boost, Divine Favor (followed by reactivating Combat Expertise), and now this would be thrown into the mix as well? As it stands, paladins end up losing out on several attacks every minute as they activate all of their abilities.

Again, this looks f***ing awesome!

[DelScorcho]

Weird, the original post is dated last week.

[maddmatt70]

-sigh- can we PLEASE get a bump to our actual Intimidate instead of these "Increased hate from Melee Attacks" THing?

I have never liked intimidate in ddo. It really is very unD&D like. You sit there and push a button based on a skill and then some mob then attacks you (intimidate in pnp is a gimpish ability actually). This increased hate is almost more like dnd this is the paladin wielding a shining sword that bad guys hate so much they just want to cut his head off - it makes more sense. I also think there is more skill involved for the player in that they have to attack multiple targets rather then sit there and push a button over and over.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Anyone know if these dodge bonuses will or won't stack with the chaos gaurd/ chattering ring/Icey Raiments/Dragontouched? Im guessing they wont based on previous dev posts on dodge bonus stacking...

Dodge Bonuses Stack, as long as they are not from an identical source (read: item).
Chaosguarde + Icy Raimnet + Chattering Ring all stack... so should this.

[BGP]

I thought almost all dodge bonuses stacked. The only one that doesn't right now is the ring and the dragontouched armor enhancement right?

[ArkoHighStar]

How long do the defensive stances last? I am guessing not just 20 secs like a typical armor boost would last? This prestige class looks pretty good if the defensive stance lasts a decent amount of time. The preques are actually less stringent then the hunter of the dead and knights of the chalice paladin prestige enhancements because nearly all defensive pallys will take bulwark of good and the aura saves one isn't a bad one to have.

I was kind of hoping that tempest would have been released there are just so many people out there making builds dependent on 6 or 12 levels of ranger and it would be nice to let those people know what is going to be the right # of levels of ranger to take. Some people may get mad about a change to tempest, but hey the less people that get mad the better and the longer you wait more people will get mad..

I imagine it is a full stance like combat expertise etc, no timer, but if you break it by say casting as spell, then you must use another turn attempt

[Irongutz2000]

It looks pretty solid especailly the dr 20/ epic ! That is sweet, I figure the stances would be stances......like ce or power attack, just don't make like CE it would drive me nuts to cast DF an click the stance onn again everytime :D

[Angelus_dead]

-sigh- can we PLEASE get a bump to our actual Intimidate instead of these "Increased hate from Melee Attacks" THing?
That'd be nice, but unfortunately the answer is:
No, no you can't get a bonus to Intimidate, until the devs add some kind of respec for skillpoints and/or class levels.

You see, currently those things cannot be respecced, meaning putting an Intimidate bonus onto Defender of Syberis would mean giving it a feature that's powerful for Pal/Fig or Pal/Rog builds, but far less useful to pure class paladins.

Hopefully it's obvious why they don't want to do that. (If it were up to me, I would push them to add respecs, then give Defender of Siberys a taunt effect that's not based on Intimidate ranks, with superior range and duration)

[ArkoHighStar]

Dodge Bonuses Stack, as long as they are not from an identical source (read: item).
Chaosguarde + Icy Raimnet + Chattering Ring all stack... so should this.

different items with the same bonus do not stack, ie chattering ring(+3) and dt dodge bonus(+3) do not stack. But this was indicated as being for items, can any dev confirm that this will not be the case for enhancements and an item.

[Ganak]

Sweeeeet....

[Deathseeker]

different items with the same bonus do not stack, ie chattering ring(+3) and dt dodge bonus(+3) do not stack. But this was indicated as being for items, can any dev confirm that this will not be the case for enhancements and an item.

That was my understanding and confusion as well Arko, thanks. I agree, Im thinking it would stack as it is an enhancement and not gear, but would hate to find out that isnt the case after planning on it.

[Irongutz2000]

Hell screw the acutal stances........u get 2 turn attempts, an extra lay onn hands, an more max dex bonuses + the super DR clickie awesome!:D

I like, but.....still not sure if it out ways the demon hunter one.......

[Zenako]

Hell screw the acutal stances........u get 2 turn attempts, an extra lay onn hands, an more max dex bonuses + the super DR clickie awesome!:D

I like, but.....still not sure if it out ways the demon hunter one.......

Well since it is essentially all enhancement based, you can readily try both and see which one works better for you for minimal cost.

[sephiroth1084]

-sigh- can we PLEASE get a bump to our actual Intimidate instead of these "Increased hate from Melee Attacks" THing?

(deleted for thoughts below)




...then give Defender of Siberys a taunt effect that's not based on Intimidate ranks, with superior range and duration

Actually, this seems a pretty decent idea. Perhaps work it as similar to the rogue's assassinate? Paladin uses the ability and forces all monsters in a certain range about him to make a Will save vs. 10 + paladin's level + Cha modifier. Those affected as though they were intimidated. The range could be slightly smaller or larger than that of intimidate, and it would be both better and worse than intimidate in different situations. Oh! And it should only work on evil creatures.

Maybe change Divine Righteousness to this?


Anyone know if these dodge bonuses will or won't stack with the chaos gaurd/ chattering ring/Icey Raiments/Dragontouched? Im guessing they wont based on previous dev posts on dodge bonus stacking...

Well, I found the dev post regarding the DT armor and Chattering Ring to be somewhat misleading, since, as far as I know, the dodge bonus from the Icy Raiments and that of the bard song, Inspire Heroics, both stack despite granting the same dodge bonus...unless they meant that ITEMS that grant a dodge bonus don't stack with similar values?

[etelan]

Mine.

Anyone who doesn't like the paladin hate bonuses hasn't spent to 1 action point and used divine righteousness

[artvan_delet]

Dreading the response that says this is like AC boost, 20 seconds. The duration on DR 20/epic says "a short period of time" versus the others that say "while in this stance." Here's hoping that all but the DR 20/epic are stances. (CE satisfies prereq, so let's hope they're similar.) Please no, say no to the click-fest and help a pally out.

[Gratch]

Wow... nice... I feel the Siberys will truly be defended now.

I also like the dr/20 epic for when even high AC isn't helping you out.

Does this put well geared Paly AC near well geared monk?

[etelan]

Dreading the response that says this is like AC boost, 20 seconds. Please no, say no to the click-fest.

My guess would be the 'expend a turn' abilities last 1 minute and the stance is toggled. Which is great as long as the stance doesn't get cancelled all the time like CE.

[Do'Urden]

This really could work out well for my Paladin / Fighter Intimitank.

One thing I really don't care for right now is that Paladins have become a short duration spell / clicky mashing class (DF, DM, DS, ES, Haste Boost, etc.). I don't have CE on this guy yet due to starting INT but I can only imagine the frustration of having to reset this every 1/2 mins in addition to everything else. It's tedious at best.

Devs...PLEASE...whatever you do with the new enhancements, please do not make them more of the same clicky mashing nonsense. My 2 cents.

[Noctus]

Great PrE!

The abilities are thematically fitting and viable in-game!

[Borror0]

Nevermind, I'll post something more constructive.

[Gum]

Defender of Siberys I
Prereqs: Level 6 Paladin, Paladin Bulwark of Good I, Paladin Resistance of Good I, Paladin Courage of Good I, Paladin Focus of Good I, Paladin Paladin Armor Class Boost I, and any one of the following: Tower Shield Proficiency, Shield Mastery, or Combat Expertise.
Benefit: Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement grants you 2 additional Turn attempts, additional armor class when blocking with a shield, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields by 1, and the ability to enter a defensive stance or to create a Magic Circle Against Evil effect.

Defender of Siberys I: Defensive Stance
You may expend a Paladin armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +2 Sacred bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +1 Sacred bonus on all saves, a +2 Dodge bonus to Armor Class, and produce 50% more hate with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move at one quarter speed.

Defender of Siberys I: Magic Circle
You may expend a turn attempt to produce a Magic Circle Against Evil effect.

Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Prereqs: Level 12 Paladin, Defender of Siberys I, Paladin Bulwark of Good II, Paladin Resistance of Good II, and any of: Paladin Rally I, Paladin Divine Righteousness I, Paladin Toughness II
Benefit: Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement grants you an additional Lay on Hands use per rest, 25% increased hate generation, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields and heavy armor by 1, and the ability to enter an improved defensive stance or to produce a Mass Shield of Faith effect.

Defender of Siberys II: Improved Defensive Stance
You may expend a Paladin armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +3 Sacred bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +2 Sacred bonus on all saves, a +3 Dodge bonus to Armor Class, and produce 100% more hate with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move at one third speed.

Defender of Siberys II: Mass Shield of Faith
You may expend a turn attempt to produce a Mass Shield of Faith effect.

Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Prereqs: Level 18 Paladin, Defender of Siberys II, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, Paladin Resistance of Good III, and any Paladin Faith II enhancement.
Benefit: Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement increases the strength of all of your defensive auras, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields and medium or heavy armor by 1, and grants the ability to enter a superior defensive stance or to defy your enemies in a glorious stand against evil.

Defender of Siberys III: Superior Defensive Stance
You may expend a Paladin armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +4 Sacred bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +3 Sacred bonus on all saves, a +4 Dodge bonus to Armor Class, and produce 200% more hate with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move at half speed.

Defender of Siberys III: Glorious Stand
You may expend a turn attempt to make a glorious stand against your enemies. For a short duration of time, you gain DR 20/epic, take reduced damage from elemental and negative energy, receive double healing from positive energy, and are immune to secondary effects of attacks such as 'wounding' or 'vorpal'. Each time you take damage, you gain the effects of a Cure Light Wounds spell.


Oh...My...Goodness....thank you!

[Aspenor]

Nevermind, I'll post something more constructive.

oh oh oh oh was this another Borr rant about Dodge AC bonuses? OOOOO

[Korvek]

To be totally honest, I don't see how the other pally PrE's are even close to as powerful as this one. This one seems a bit excessive really.

[Borror0]

oh oh oh oh was this another Borr rant about Dodge AC bonuses? OOOOO
Sort of. I just don't like the optic taken for this PrE.

[Gratch]

To be totally honest, I don't see how the other pally PrE's are even close to as powerful as this one. This one seems a bit excessive really.

My monk with a 70's standing ac says it would be nice to have PLATE wearers be on the front line.

[nbhs275]

-sigh- can we PLEASE get a bump to our actual Intimidate instead of these "Increased hate from Melee Attacks" THing?

although i do agree with better intim being a good thing, i also gotta say, 200% hate, along with all the other things for hate bonus, could mean just a single smite could land you the aggro of sally for the entire raid. hmm, 500 damage, x2 from defender hate, 25% WF, x2 from divine righteousness. If they are stacking pnp style, your looking at ALOT of aggro.

[etelan]

To be totally honest, I don't see how the other pally PrE's are even close to as powerful as this one. This one seems a bit excessive really.

It certainly won't be any more popular over the others than ranger tempest is over the other ranger PrE's. I think the important thing is the other options are there just to provide a little variety. Besides, they all definetly have their uses. Great job Turbine on pally PrE's!

[etelan]

Wow... nice... I feel the Siberys will truly be defended now.

I also like the dr/20 epic for when even high AC isn't helping you out.

Does this put well geared Paly AC near well geared monk?

With this and the right DT armor I should be close to 80 on a pure pally. While it's not the best I've seen I'd say that qualifies as near well geared monk, but with lots of other cool defensive abilities. He will be quite the tank next mod.

[Geonis]

This PrE looks pretty good. Much better than the Knight of the Chalice.

But, again what is up with the Faith 2 enhancement prereq?

Not many take these to begin with, and then you force people to take them?

[Junts]

I don't really see how this pre is clearly superior to the others; it is clearly superior for tanking purposes (if you have the dex on a tank paladin to get a lot out of the dex mod changes; someone needs to clarify these, are you getting +1, +2 or +3 mdb total by the 3rd tier, Eladrin?), it is questionably superior for drawing aggro (since you need to keep up with the mob first), and the secondary effects is nice (specifically, if it makes you immune to things like suulo's curse or knockdown; if its just **** like vorpal and wounding, that's pointless, because death ward does that!)

this pre is aimed at a certain subset of paladin functions, just like the other is - in fact, i think knight of the chalice will be more popular, as its a pre that gives paladins ranger dps and people like dps.

However, it's quite nice, though I need to sit down and compare the math requirements exactly; i think the ap reqiurements here are more onerous than chalice (faith2 and resistance 3, plus the other aura ****).

since this class has an actual feat requirement, eladrin, you need to bring its ap cost down (said thisfor chalice, which just has less total bonuses than other pres, too). paladins are incredibly problematic ap wise, and these prcs, while they look great, are way less impressive when you start to consider what people will have to give up to be able to afford them.

faith2 enhancements blow; make them worth taking or take them out of the requirement list and replace them with appropriate class enhancements. they are expensive. grant bonuses with useless equipment, and except for unyielding sovreignty are not all that great anyway. i dont even take them on clerics! I understand that all prestige classes have rp-appropriate enhancement requirements that increase their passive cost, but for paladins this is getting particularly onerous as you're actually forcing paladins to hurt themselves in other ways to get these benefits.

all 3 paladin prcs have great effects, though I don't see how people think this one is better than knight of the chalice, though its more interesting and people like the rp and image more.

I play a paladin intimitank and I still think I'd rather have chalice unless I learn more about the passive mdb bonuses; dps is just more relevant and significant, unless quest design is changing enormously.

[noinfo]

Defender of Siberys I


Defender of Siberys I: Defensive Stance
You may expend a Paladin armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +2 Sacred bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +1 Sacred bonus on all saves, a +2 Dodge bonus to Armor Class, and produce 50% more hate with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move at one quarter speed.



What I am concerned about is if these stances can be used with other stances such as CE. If not there is not any AC benefit to be had here. Same with power attack. If they do stack then pallys will be getting a decent boost.

[Gol]

Heh, I see the whining already. Zeal turns off the stance. Nice! :eek:

[Korvek]

My monk with a 70's standing ac says it would be nice to have PLATE wearers be on the front line.

That TWF Pal 18/Monk 2 probably won't be wearing plate.

[Junts]

although i do agree with better intim being a good thing, i also gotta say, 200% hate, along with all the other things for hate bonus, could mean just a single smite could land you the aggro of sally for the entire raid. hmm, 500 damage, x2 from defender hate, 25% WF, x2 from divine righteousness. If they are stacking pnp style, your looking at ALOT of aggro.



more importantly for vod, w ill the tier3 make you immune to the curse? if so, useful, if not, that whole section is a fancy-looking joke.


no one has ever been seriously threatened by kai-teng and wop or vorpal. as long as deathward blocks vorpal, the idea that people need to be immune to it is a joke

[etelan]

-sigh- can we PLEASE get a bump to our actual Intimidate instead of these "Increased hate from Melee Attacks" THing?

Based on the premise of each of the d&d melee classes I do not think paladins should ever become the master of intimidation.

[Yaga_Nub]

This PrE looks pretty good. Much better than the Knight of the Chalice.

But, again what is up with the Faith 2 enhancement prereq?

Not many take these to begin with, and then you force people to take them?

I see it as this PrE (and it's benefits) are a boon from your faith. Paladins need to be tied to a faith in some way IMHO and this is as good as any way to do.

[ArkoHighStar]

Additional things needing some clarification

Tier 1:
additional armor class when blocking with a shield(how much of a bonus to AC)

Tier 3
This prestige enhancement increases the strength of all of your defensive auras(Does this mean an additional bonus to AC aura etc)

[Darth_Sizzle]

This looks awesome except for one thing


...Defender of Siberys I: Defensive Stance
You may expend a Paladin armor boost...

Please allow us to use Paladin armor boost OR Human Versatility armor boost

I really don't want to waste AP to have the same thing twice...

[Geonis]

I see it as this PrE (and it's benefits) are a boon from your faith. Paladins need to be tied to a faith in some way IMHO and this is as good as any way to do.

You may as well say the abilities come from a Paladins "sorcerous powers", it makes about as much sense.

The Paladin in and of him(her)self is a bastion of faith. Being forced to spend 6 APs on crappy faith "enhancements" in an AP starved class, so that it matches some ideal fantasy of yours (or others), is just more of a kick in the boys.

[Riggs]

Question

Will the magic circle/mass shield of faith stack?

or will they be plain old deflection bonuses? In which case its not going to benefit the vast majority. Even if it helps the nearby wiz who doesnt have a deflection item say...getting the wiz from a 24 ac to a 28 isnt a worthwhile level 18 ability, not when every single player who wants ac already is using a +4 or +5 item.

The duration on buffs and abilities is going to be an issue as said. There are already a lot of 1 minute duration things out there, and with the cooldown, having to stop 10-20 seconds out of every minute if you want to keep 'fully buffed' is not always a good way to increas eyour fighting ability.

The dodge bonus is cool for someone in plate. However as long as it doesnt lead to more power creep. Shroud devils and some high level monsters have started hitting more often now that icy raiments and all the monk splashes have been showing up. There is no point adding more dodge bonuses to classes if high level monsters get the same bonus added to hit - it just kills people under a 50 ac even faster.

[Yaga_Nub]

You may as well say the abilities come from a Paladins "sorcerous powers", it makes about as much sense.

The Paladin in and of him(her)self is a bastion of faith. Being forced to spend 6 APs on crappy faith "enhancements" in an AP starved class, so that it matches some ideal fantasy of yours (or others), is just more of a kick in the boys.

Faith in what? Oh that's right faith is his religion. Without one then he's not a Paladin.

[Gratch]

more importantly for vod, w ill the tier3 make you immune to the curse? if so, useful, if not, that whole section is a fancy-looking joke.

Isn't the curse on-hit and given a will save and shield-blockable? Three things a defender of siberys should have in most cases...

[Artagon]

So... umm.. Can anyone say Levik's Defender?

I think I'll make myself a nice 3-piece set of that, and make a human pally with the human healing amplification line... yeah.... CLW on every hit in that stance along with dr? LoL +50% on my auto-CLW makes me very happy. Healing curse, eat your heart out :/

[Tanka]

You may as well say the abilities come from a Paladins "sorcerous powers", it makes about as much sense.

The Paladin in and of him(her)self is a bastion of faith. Being forced to spend 6 APs on crappy faith "enhancements" in an AP starved class, so that it matches some ideal fantasy of yours (or others), is just more of a kick in the boys.
I'm rather a fan of Unyielding Sovreignty. 1,000HP LoH that cures everything, including death penalty? Sure, the 2AP pre-req is lame (+1 to-hit with longswords? Yaaaaawn), but the end result is rather nice in a pinch.

And the Paladin gets his spells and abilities from his faith. It isn't himself, because then he would be a Fighter.

In Eberron, your faith can be an ideal, but the idea is the same. There must be a driving force that the Paladin believes in that is not himself that makes him push himself to defeat Evil.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Dodge Bonuses Stack, as long as they are not from an identical source (read: item).
Chaosguarde + Icy Raimnet + Chattering Ring all stack... so should this.

Not true. The dev post specifically said they don't stack if they are the same BONUS so two +1s do not stack, two +2s do not stack, source doesn't matter, the + does.

[Yaga_Nub]

I'm rather a fan of Unyielding Sovreignty. 1,000HP LoH that cures everything, including death penalty? Sure, the 2AP pre-req is lame (+1 to-hit with longswords? Yaaaaawn), but the end result is rather nice in a pinch.

And the Paladin gets his spells and abilities from his faith. It isn't himself, because then he would be a Fighter.

In Eberron, you faith can be an ideal, but the idea is the same. There must be a driving force that the Paladin believes in that is not himself that makes him push himself to defeat Evil.

Wow thanks Tanka, I expected every reply to be for the other point of view.

[Turial]

So the Defender gets the following ac wise?

1.+ ? AC bonus when shield blocking, +1 Dex on towershields, +2 dodge bonus in stance
2. + 1 Dex on towershields and heavy armor, +3 dodge bonus in stance
3. +? AC bonus on Aura, +1 Dex on towershields and heavy/medium armor, +4 dodge in stance

For a total of :

+? AC bonus when blocking, +3 dex on towersheilds, +2 dex on heavy armor, +1 dex on medium armor, +? AC bonus on aura, and +4 dodge in stance

[Junts]

Isn't the curse on-hit and given a will save and shield-blockable? Three things a defender of siberys should have in most cases...


its shield blockable, but it's pretty hard to save against, and shield blocking him to hold his aggro would be quite contrary to the idea of hitting him with increased hate generation in order to actually tank

if these arei mmune to vod curse, they can dps tank suulomades and hold his aggro with their immense hate gen.

if they arent, then their entire stances and everything are useless and they'd have to be intimitanks to hold him in place in order to tank the raid.

I use this raid as an example because its the raid in the game most friendly to 'massive tank handles big mob to protect party'; no one can protect a party from arraetrikos, and there are not really any o ther good opportunities to do so.

if the class can't do what its ideal describes it doing in the raid in the game where that's both necessary and where the class is given the tools to do so, its not a very good set of bonuses.

[Aspenor]

All other PrE's have some "useless" requirement, why wouldn't the paladin's?

At least the req wasn't in something like Paladin diplomacy....

[Geonis]

Faith in what? Oh that's right faith is his religion. Without one then he's not a Paladin.

I'm pretty sure a Paladin or even a Cleric has faith in his/her religion without one of these crappy abilities. In this line, the Faith Enhancements aren't even that big a deal, as only 3 APs are wasted otherwise (AC Boost I, Focus of Good I, and Courage of Good I ), much less than the other PrEs.

[Milolyen]

Not true. The dev post specifically said they don't stack if they are the same BONUS so two +1s do not stack, two +2s do not stack, source doesn't matter, the + does.

Go back and read again and I am sure you will find it states two ITEM bonus of same lvl ... otherwise the dodge feat itself would not stack with the other +1 dodge bonuses out there.

Milolyen

[Turial]

Not true. The dev post specifically said they don't stack if they are the same BONUS so two +1s do not stack, two +2s do not stack, source doesn't matter, the + does.

Dodge bonuses of equal magnitude from items do not stack. Dodge bonuses from other sources will stack. This is how you can get +2 AC from haste and 3rd tier haste Proc.

[etelan]

You may as well say the abilities come from a Paladins "sorcerous powers", it makes about as much sense.

The Paladin in and of him(her)self is a bastion of faith. Being forced to spend 6 APs on crappy faith "enhancements" in an AP starved class, so that it matches some ideal fantasy of yours (or others), is just more of a kick in the boys.

I traded out the highest level of exalted smite and lost the ability to hit for over 500 a swing for a faith II enhancement, unyielding soverignty, and I would recommend it to anyone. Besides, nearly all PrE's have difficult prereqs and not all of them will be helpful for your build. If the use of prestige prereqs outways the benefits for your build then it's a perfect chance to consider the other two PrE's

[Gratch]

its shield blockable, but it's pretty hard to save against, and shield blocking him to hold his aggro would be quite contrary to the idea of hitting him with increased hate generation in order to actually tank

I remember the problem of the vod curse on my pal/fighter intimitank... but then I feat swapped into Force of Personality which kicked my will save up another 8... I get cursed maybe once a VoD run as MT now. Mid 30's will save I think. Though I haven't run it since the 8.2 patch if it's been changed. Too busy getting my warforged new lotto-crafted-docents.

[Mhykke]

All other PrE's have some "useless" requirement, why wouldn't the paladin's?

At least the req wasn't in something like Paladin diplomacy....

The paladin already has useless requirements (the concentration and fear aura requirements), in addition to a feat requirement, in addition to requirements that a lot take (but not all).

It just seems silly for Faith II to be a requirement for all of these Paladin PrE's, consdiering most of the Faith II's have nothing to do with any of these PrE's, and Paladins are already one of, if not the most AP intensive classes.

I just don't get it. Maybe if the devs made Faith I and II lines useful, then people could stomach this more. As it stands, now it's merely spending 6 APs (in addition to the feat and other APs spent) just to spend them.

[Junts]

I'm rather a fan of Unyielding Sovreignty. 1,000HP LoH that cures everything, including death penalty? Sure, the 2AP pre-req is lame (+1 to-hit with longswords? Yaaaaawn), but the end result is rather nice in a pinch.

And the Paladin gets his spells and abilities from his faith. It isn't himself, because then he would be a Fighter.

In Eberron, you faith can be an ideal, but the idea is the same. There must be a driving force that the Paladin believes in that is not himself that makes him push himself to defeat Evil.


things better than US that my paladin can't afford the ap to buy right now:

divine sacrifice II (+2d6 on divine sacs)
divine righteousness I (not essential since I've got a 55 intimidate)
human healing amplification I and II
paladin resistance of good I, II and III (yes, i have nothing in this: nothing)

i have no devotion line (arguably as useful as US over time with a devotion item), either, though I wouldnt claim it is for sure a better way to spend ap; the above all are, however.

ap-starved class, faith enhancements are not worth their cost

at a 1/2 progression i would consider them, for 6 a p, i could have healing amp 20% for that, and thats like 645% better, dude.

[maddmatt70]

All other PrE's have some "useless" requirement, why wouldn't the paladin's?

At least the req wasn't in something like Paladin diplomacy....

Agreed. I actually think that this prestige enhancement class is far easier to make the qualifications then the knight of chalice and hunter of dead prestige enhancements and is comparable to the frenzied berserker enhancements (1 feat cleave and one bad enhancement barbarian damage boost 4 and two good ones that all barbarians really want). The kensai, hunter of dead, and knights of chalice all need to have their requirements changed and/or reduced, but that is another story...

[Geonis]

I traded out the highest level of exalted smite and lost the ability to hit for over 500 a swing for a faith II enhancement, unyielding soverignty, and I would recommend it to anyone. Besides, nearly all PrE's have difficult prereqs and not all of them will be helpful for your build.

I wouldn't trade Exalted Smite 3 for anything else a Paladin can take.

Crit for over 400 on a FINESSE Pally/Monk TWF. Nope, wouldn't trade it for anything.

[ArkoHighStar]

Not true. The dev post specifically said they don't stack if they are the same BONUS so two +1s do not stack, two +2s do not stack, source doesn't matter, the + does.

to clarify this the issue is only with items, so the +3 dodge from the stance will stack with a chattering ring


Identical magnitude dodge bonuses from treasure do not stack in DDO. (With the exception of the Eldritch Ritual Shield/Armor improvements, when we renamed those to "Dodge". We'll rename those yet again to be clearer that those stack with everything but themselves.)

This is an intentional deviation from the basic D&D rules

[Tanka]

RE: Junts' on US:

Odd. I just built a quick Halfing TWF Pally and was able to get US, AC Boost 1, Halfling Dex 2, Pal Cha 2, Monk Wis 1, Resist 3, AC 3, Focus 1, Courage 1, DM 1, Divine Righteousness, Divine Sac 2, Exalted Smite 3, Extra LoH 3, Extra Smite 4 and Extra Turning 1.

That meets all of the pre-reqs for the Defender of Siberys.

[Irongutz2000]

RE: Junts' on US:

Odd. I just built a quick Halfing TWF Pally and was able to get US, AC Boost 1, Halfling Dex 2, Pal Cha 2, Monk Wis 1, Resist 3, AC 3, Focus 1, Courage 1, DM 1, Divine Righteousness, Divine Sac 2, Exalted Smite 3, Extra LoH 3, Extra Smite 4 and Extra Turning 1.

That meets all of the pre-reqs for the Defender of Siberys.

No toughness :( U need teir 2 to qualify

[Tanka]

No toughness :(
Upper-70s raid-buffed AC. And Evasion.

Remember, we get another Feat at 18, plus 16 APs. 8 to go this PrE (assuming 4/2/2 cost like the others), 4 to Bulwark 4, leaving 4 for whatever. Take Toughness, get Pal Toughness 2 and Racial 1.


:( U need teir 2 to qualify

and any of: Paladin Rally I, Paladin Divine Righteousness I, Paladin Toughness II
Done.

[Mhykke]

Remember, we get another Feat at 18, plus 16 APs. 8 to go this PrE (assuming 4/2/2 cost like the others), 4 to Bulwark 4, leaving 4 for whatever. Take Toughness, get Pal Toughness 2 and Racial 1.


Don't forget the capstone, whatever that may be. :)

[Angelus_dead]

1. My most serious concern is duration. Defensive Stance is the core ability of the D&D Defender of Seatiel, so the DDO version must keep that important to preserve the feeling of the prestige class. A short duration like 20 sec means you won't have much chance to use it, particularly around raid bosses. However a longer duration like 60 sec means that against weaker bosses, the Paladin will often defeat the enemy and then be left with 30 sec left before he can move properly again (Wave byebye to the rest of the party!).
The obvious way to address that problem is to allow Defensive Stance to be manually deactivated before it expires (just like Barbarian Rage). If possible, it would be more convenient for the same icon to activate and cancel the mode.

2. Tumbling. I hope we don't see Paladins tumbling around to move while Defensive Stance is up. Prehaps the stance should disallow tumbling.

3. Knockdown. It would be both useful and thematic to add a knockdown immunity to Improved or Superior Defensive Stance- think about fighting Laliat or Xyzzy. Acrobat rogues get that ability permanently, so it should be fine to let certain Paladins have it temporarily. You wouldn't look like a "bastion" of defense flat on your back.

[Tanka]

Don't forget the capstone, whatever that may be. :)
My build wouldn't get it - 18Pal/2Mnk.

Plus, the preview Capstones have been OK, but not necessary. It's as a Capstone should be -- good, but not overpowering and overshadowing multiclass builds (who generally gain other benefits from multiclassing).

[Irongutz2000]

I dunno this seems worse then trying to do a rangers enchanments..........so many good things to chose an not enough points :mad:

[Tanka]

1. My most serious concern is duration. Defensive Stance is the core ability of the D&D Defender of Seatiel, so the DDO version must keep that important to preserve the feeling of the prestige class. A short duration like 20 sec means you won't have much chance to use it, particularly around raid bosses. However a longer duration like 60 sec means that against weaker bosses, the Paladin will often defeat the enemy and then be left with 30 sec left before he can move properly again (Wave byebye to the rest of the party!).
The obvious way to address that problem is to allow Defensive Stance to be manually deactivated before it expires (just like Barbarian Rage). If possible, it would be more convenient for the same icon to activate and cancel the mode.

2. Tumbling. I hope we don't see Paladins tumbling around to move while Defensive Stance is up. Prehaps the stance should disallow tumbling.

3. Knockdown. It would be both useful and thematic to add a knockdown immunity to Improved or Superior Defensive Stance- think about fighting Laliat or Xyzzy. Acrobat rogues get that ability permanently, so it should be fine to let certain Paladins have it temporarily. You wouldn't look like a "bastion" of defense flat on your back.
I share all of these concerns.

[Tanka]

I dunno this seems worse then trying to do a rangers enchanments..........so many good things to chose an not enough points :mad:
You'll have 80 AP to play with come M9. You can't do everything. Make sacrifices.

[Junts]

RE: Junts' on US:

Odd. I just built a quick Halfing TWF Pally and was able to get US, AC Boost 1, Halfling Dex 2, Pal Cha 2, Monk Wis 1, Resist 3, AC 3, Focus 1, Courage 1, DM 1, Divine Righteousness, Divine Sac 2, Exalted Smite 3, Extra LoH 3, Extra Smite 4 and Extra Turning 1.

That meets all of the pre-reqs for the Defender of Siberys.

my point was that in order to take some of that stuff you have to not take other stuff; not all my enhancements are pre-requisits, but that doesn't mean i'd not take them

my enhancements are:

extra smiting 1-4 (10 ap)
extra loh 1-3 (6ap, 16)
pal cha 1-2 (6 ap, 22)
exalted smiting 1-3 (6 ap, 28)
pally toughness 1-4 (10 ap, 38)
human adaptability cha (2 ap, 40)
human greater adapt, con (4 ap, 44)
racial toughness 1-3 (6 ap, 50)
divine sacrifice I (1 ap, 51)
divine might 1-2 (3 ap, 54)
fighter str 1 (2 ap, 56)
fighter intim 1 (1 ap, 57)
fighter haste I (1 ap, 58)
bulwark of good 1-3 (6 ap, 64)

when the cap raises, I'm already devoted 4 ap to bulwark 4, leaving me with 12 ap to spend

lets heaven forbid I ever need to move human adapt from cha over to another stat and have to pick up pally cha 3

making effective paladins costs a lot of ap; if you really didn't take any class or racial toughness on a halfling pally, well, honestly, i think you're insane, as your ac isn't gonna be untouchable.

i play a toon that raidbuffs into the 70s ac and its a major decision for me to drop racial toughness 3 and the associated enhancement (which ism aking my con odd; I'm spending 7 ap for that last 10, so i will probably drop it. i would not consider dropping paladin toughness 4 for another 4 ap, as that would put me down into the 430s when using an intimidate helm, and that's unacceptable hp for a tank-based toon).


i play a paladin that is already very effective as a main raid tank; the fact that I think chalice is much more easily affordable and hence more bang for my buck is a profound statement about the ap requirements of siberys, which would probably require me to either nerf my hp or my ability to do relevant dps in order to pick up a short-term ac buff.

if defender gives +1 max dex bonus which progresses from ts to heavy to medium, it is not worth it

if I can get +2 or +3 mdb for heavy/plate, i would consider the prestige class; tanking clickies dont work, you have to tank things for too long to use them constantly.

and I don't even have the dex to mine more than +2 max dex to heavy armor out of it (since I'm already using daggertooth to get heavy to +3 mdb)

[Tanka]

and that's unacceptable hp for a tank-based toon).
That or your Cleric isn't paying enough attention to the aggro-generator.

[Angelus_dead]

my point was that in order to take some of that stuff you have to not take other stuff; not all my enhancements are pre-requisites, but that doesn't mean i'd not take them
You have Extra Smite IV, Paladin Tough IV, and Racial Tough III. Dropping the top level of any of those will return you many AP compared to the power lost. You're also spending AP on fighter things that a pure pally wouldn't.

If you want this new stuff, you can drop something to get it.


i would not consider dropping paladin toughness 4 for another 4 ap, as that would put me down into the 430s when using an intimidate helm, and that's unacceptable hp for a tank-based toon).
People get these irrational attachments to Toughness things. Do remember that Defensive Stance gives you +40 hp.


lets heaven forbid I ever need to move human adapt from cha over to another stat and have to pick up pally cha 3
Yeah, then you'd have to make what's called a "trade off".

[Tanka]

i play a paladin that is already very effective as a main raid tank; the fact that I think chalice is much more easily affordable and hence more bang for my buck is a profound statement about the ap requirements of siberys, which would probably require me to either nerf my hp or my ability to do relevant dps in order to pick up a short-term ac buff.

if defender gives +1 max dex bonus which progresses from ts to heavy to medium, it is not worth it

if I can get +2 or +3 mdb for heavy/plate, i would consider the prestige class; tanking clickies dont work, you have to tank things for too long to use them constantly.

and I don't even have the dex to mine more than +2 max dex to heavy armor out of it (since I'm already using daggertooth to get heavy to +3 mdb)
That's all well and good, but as Angelus_dead points out, there's an idea called a tradeoff. You can't be strong DPS and uber Intimitank.

I play a Rogue with low HP and my main (Tanka) only has 448 HP. I get aggro on both of them frequently, one due to SA, the other due to gear and a minor amount of SA. If they die, it's either because I really did bite off more than I could chew (common) or the Cleric I was with fell asleep (rare).

So, really, I believe the proper response is:

:rolleyes:

[Bahamut2119]

My pally is loving this if im figuring stuff out right 75 unbuffed ac 81 buffed not that far off now from ranger monks and pally monks.

[Junts]

You have Extra Smite IV, Paladin Tough IV, and Racial Tough III. Dropping the top level of any of those will return you many AP compared to the power lost. You're also spending AP on fighter things that a pure pally wouldn't.

If you want this new stuff, you can drop something to get it.


People get these irrational attachments to Toughness things. Do remember that Defensive Stance gives you +40 hp.


Yeah, then you'd have to make what's called a "trade off".


I only have 2 splash levels; therefore, at cap, I have 18 levels of pally ap to spend on the prestige class, the level at which i t becomes available; the ap i have available is the expected amount for people acquiring the prc.

yes, a tradeoff for somethign useful when you're standing absolutely still? awesome, a whole brand of paladins who get piked through quests because they are ungodly useless until there's a big mob for them to tank.

how many raids in the game right now would that be useful in? two? how many quests? maybe one?

this prestige class is powerful, but incredibly inflexible and requires you to pretty much trade off being relevant when you aren't doing what it does.

I'd rather have either of the other two prestige classes, and I'm a paladin tank!

the ac bonus is nice, but unless I can get 15 minutes out if it, its pretty irrelevant for a raidboss, and if i need it for trash mobs, I don't belong in the quest.

angelus: extra smite 4 is a pre-requisite for exalted smite 3 (and 4 if you ever want it), paladins have a lot of intricate ap requirements to pick up their remotely useful enhancements

it costs 7 ap to gain the second crit threat multiplier on your smites and the cooldown improvement

you can't have it without extra smiting 4, or i'd probaby not have it..or es 3 :P


'uber dps'? its a tank paladin, it has a shield - it has to take every damage enhancement known to man to -do any damage whatosever-.

without them, your job is to stand there and, hopefully, be healed

and no, I don't think attachments to toughness are overrated; ac doesn't help with the insane aoe spam in this game, if you're making a non-evasion tank without 450 hp, -you are going to die when stuff starts fireballing you-

450 hp is barely enough for the shroud on hard or elite! what do you think m9 raids are gonna look like?

[Tanka]

My pally is loving this if im figuring stuff out right 75 unbuffed ac 81 buffed not that far off now from ranger monks and pally monks.
Do remember that Dodge bonuses with the same modifier don't stack. So if you're listing two +3s (Chattering Ring/DT armor), subtract 3.

But, yes, this PrE does make FP-wearing S&B Paladins more desirable again. But you've already got to be one to take full effect from it.

[Junts]

Do remember that Dodge bonuses with the same modifier don't stack. So if you're listing two +3s (Chattering Ring/DT armor), subtract 3.

But, yes, this PrE does make FP-wearing S&B Paladins more desirable again. But you've already got to be one to take full effect from it.


unfortunately you also have to be one iwth a lot more dex than it would have been smart to create one with; you can already use daggertooth's belt for 0 ap to mine 2 mdb out of armor, and few pure pallys would have chosen to go with more dex when they had nothing to gain from it.

[Tanka]

450 hp is barely enough for the shroud on hard or elite! what do you think m9 raids are gonna look like?
We'll have 4 more levels, another Feat, 16 more APs and - most importantly - Clerics will get Heal, Mass.

The sky is, in fact, not falling.

[Junts]

We'll have 4 more levels, another Feat, 16 more APs and - most importantly - Clerics will get Heal, Mass.

The sky is, in fact, not falling.

I never said it was; rather, I still find it obnoxious that paladins have all these intricately tied-together enhancements when few other classes have so many sets of pre-reqs; it makes paladins a very ap intensive class -relative to other classes- (the extra smite/exalted smite tie together, making you spend 20 ap to get exalted smite 4, for example, which isn't worth that price, or the way paladin redemption is set up).

other classes don't have random enhancements set up this way; just their prcs.

paladins have both, and that was my point :P

[Tanka]

Paladin Redemption is useless. Either craft some Shroud items for the True Rez or get Ring of the Ancestors for a Raise. Or get decent UMD to scroll-cast.

[ArkoHighStar]

1. My most serious concern is duration. Defensive Stance is the core ability of the D&D Defender of Seatiel, so the DDO version must keep that important to preserve the feeling of the prestige class. A short duration like 20 sec means you won't have much chance to use it, particularly around raid bosses. However a longer duration like 60 sec means that against weaker bosses, the Paladin will often defeat the enemy and then be left with 30 sec left before he can move properly again (Wave byebye to the rest of the party!).
The obvious way to address that problem is to allow Defensive Stance to be manually deactivated before it expires (just like Barbarian Rage). If possible, it would be more convenient for the same icon to activate and cancel the mode.

2. Tumbling. I hope we don't see Paladins tumbling around to move while Defensive Stance is up. Prehaps the stance should disallow tumbling.

3. Knockdown. It would be both useful and thematic to add a knockdown immunity to Improved or Superior Defensive Stance- think about fighting Laliat or Xyzzy. Acrobat rogues get that ability permanently, so it should be fine to let certain Paladins have it temporarily. You wouldn't look like a "bastion" of defense flat on your back.


My hope is that the stance is not timed at all, but is affected by casting spells etc, that way it is not unlimited but is not useless. Agreed on tumbling and knockdown, and if not an immunity then at least a nice bonus vs knockdown

[Junts]

Paladin Redemption is useless. Either craft some Shroud items for the True Rez or get Ring of the Ancestors for a Raise. Or get decent UMD to scroll-cast.


i did all 3 of those things; i obviously don't waste ap on it. my point was that the class's enhancement designs are ap intensive compared to other classes, not that they were worth it (in fact, all the enhancements set up that way are, because of that setup, worthless, though I still go for the smites because I'm desperate for any dps increase; I'd probably pay 10 ap for +1 damage/swing :P)

[Tanka]

i did all 3 of those things; i obviously don't waste ap on it. my point was that the class's enhancement designs are ap intensive compared to other classes, not that they were worth it (in fact, all the enhancements set up that way are, because of that setup, worthless, though I still go for the smites because I'm desperate for any dps increase; I'd probably pay 10 ap for +1 damage/swing :P)
Do you absolutely positively need ES maxed out? If you're relying on Smites to be "DPS", then you're doing it wrong. Intimitanks don't hold aggro via DPS -- they hold it via Intimidate. You, at least, know that much having a 2 Fighter splash. However, it isn't your job to DPS. It's your job to hold aggro so the Barbs, the Rogues, the Rangers, the Fighters specced for DPS can all do their job -- DPS.

You're trying to do two things at once, and the PrEs aren't meant to do two things at once. They're meant to specialize even further.

[Ustice]

Okay, that is two weeks without a puzzle for the info. What gives? ;)

[Yaga_Nub]

Do you absolutely positively need ES maxed out? If you're relying on Smites to be "DPS", then you're doing it wrong. Intimitanks don't hold aggro via DPS -- they hold it via Intimidate. You, at least, know that much having a 2 Fighter splash. However, it isn't your job to DPS. It's your job to hold aggro so the Barbs, the Rogues, the Rangers, the Fighters specced for DPS can all do their job -- DPS.

You're trying to do two things at once, and the PrEs aren't meant to do two things at once. They're meant to specialize even further.

You tell him Tanka!

[Junts]

Do you absolutely positively need ES maxed out? If you're relying on Smites to be "DPS", then you're doing it wrong. Intimitanks don't hold aggro via DPS -- they hold it via Intimidate. You, at least, know that much having a 2 Fighter splash. However, it isn't your job to DPS. It's your job to hold aggro so the Barbs, the Rogues, the Rangers, the Fighters specced for DPS can all do their job -- DPS.

You're trying to do two things at once, and the PrEs aren't meant to do two things at once. They're meant to specialize even further.

holding aggro via intimidate is great; however, there are many, many, many times it is not called for; i would prefer, for example, not to be a completely useless waste of space to take into the shroud, to be able to contribute meaningfully to stealer of souls, etc - because the role of the intimitank is frankly extremely specialized, if you do not give your character another function, you are essentially piking to the 5% of the time where your skillset is needed.

however, -this- class, is not an intimidate class, it is a pure paladin using righeousness and other hate generation mods - it -needs- some dps dealing potential, and smites, in order to pull and keep aggro, because otherwise it will not be able to do so in a useful fashion.

if i could get the dex to gain the full benefit of this prc, i would instead drop dodge, a skill focus and use my lv 18 feat to take the twf chain and have that as an option for the rest of the time - its what good fighter intimitanks do, because -otherwise they are useless pikers half the time-, and they know it

smite, divine sac, divine might, favor, zeal, and a greensteel khopesh get me to the point of 'sort of contributing'

everyone else is gonna spring forward in m9, I'm not looking forward to going back to being totally useless when I'm not tanking the raidboss for everyone. I'll probably take chalice, and if it turns out its not doing enough for me, get hotd for the neg level immunity and restoration clickies; defensive stance needs to not use turn undeads and/or last several minutes per use for me to want to use it. the dr is cool and all, but this isnt something thats going to actually be useful in the game the way the game is most of the time - as it is, i stopped intimidating trashmobs because there's inevitably some fool (often someone I like) who, when I intimidate, stands in the same place as I am and tries to take out hte mobs while getting annihilated by all their attacks :P

[Tanka]

Junts, if your argument is basically "because this PrE doesn't benefit my build, I won't take it", fine.

But it doesn't make it useless. In fact, it's a very powerful Pala-tank PrE.

If you can't look past your damage and see the bigger picture, have fun seeing all the Paladins that take this PrE overshadow you in tanking -- because they will.

You want to do DPS? Spec for it.
You want to tank? Spec for it.

Knight of the Chalice specs you for DPS against Evil Outsiders.
Defender of Siberys specs you for tanking against everything.

Pick one and stop complaining that you can't have both.

[Junts]

Junts, if your argument is basically "because this PrE doesn't benefit my build, I won't take it", fine.

But it doesn't make it useless. In fact, it's a very powerful Pala-tank PrE.

If you can't look past your damage and see the bigger picture, have fun seeing all the Paladins that take this PrE overshadow you in tanking -- because they will.

You want to do DPS? Spec for it.
You want to tank? Spec for it.

Knight of the Chalice specs you for DPS against Evil Outsiders.
Defender of Siberys specs you for tanking against everything.

Pick one and stop complaining that you can't have both.

actually, I was trying to make a point about the aggro generation abilities of the class; it needs to do dps to make that +200% hate matter (if its not hitting to generate the hate, it will lose the hate quickly, and anything with intimidate will be superior). I have intimidate; the benefits of this prc are the potential hp/dodge ac bonuses; I'll take them if I need them, and take better things if I need those.

it doesnt, however, change the fact that the ap requirements are extremely high, in such a fashion that most paladins specced for prestige classes will be running almost identical enhancements.

you could take my build, drop 1 str for 2 dex, work in the same intimidate and twf, and do both; the best characters in this game often do (and I'll suffer for the 12 starting dex, for sure, unless a +5 tome happens someday).

[Deathseeker]

holding aggro via intimidate is great; however, there are many, many, many times it is not called for; i would prefer, for example, not to be a completely useless waste of space to take into the shroud, to be able to contribute meaningfully to stealer of souls, etc - because the role of the intimitank is frankly extremely specialized, if you do not give your character another function, you are essentially piking to the 5% of the time where your skillset is needed.

however, -this- class, is not an intimidate class, it is a pure paladin using righeousness and other hate generation mods - it -needs- some dps dealing potential, and smites, in order to pull and keep aggro, because otherwise it will not be able to do so in a useful fashion.

if i could get the dex to gain the full benefit of this prc, i would instead drop dodge, a skill focus and use my lv 18 feat to take the twf chain and have that as an option for the rest of the time - its what good fighter intimitanks do, because -otherwise they are useless pikers half the time-, and they know it

smite, divine sac, divine might, favor, zeal, and a greensteel khopesh get me to the point of 'sort of contributing'

everyone else is gonna spring forward in m9, I'm not looking forward to going back to being totally useless when I'm not tanking the raidboss for everyone. I'll probably take chalice, and if it turns out its not doing enough for me, get hotd for the neg level immunity and restoration clickies; defensive stance needs to not use turn undeads and/or last several minutes per use for me to want to use it. the dr is cool and all, but this isnt something thats going to actually be useful in the game the way the game is most of the time - as it is, i stopped intimidating trashmobs because there's inevitably some fool (often someone I like) who, when I intimidate, stands in the same place as I am and tries to take out hte mobs while getting annihilated by all their attacks :P

Junts, sounds like your ideal Palladin build might be something like....hmmm...12 Barbarian / 6 Ranger / 2 Ftr...?

[Junts]

Junts, sounds like your ideal Palladin build might be something like....hmmm...12 Barbarian / 6 Ranger / 2 Ftr...?

what do you need ranger levels for? hi, I'm a paladin and i have attack speed too! ;)

18 pally twfing zealing knight of the chalice is going to be the dps god of mod9, I'm sad i didnt start with enough dex to get into it, but having that and intimitank capability at the same time would be moderately ******** anyway - but someone else will build one.

[Tanka]

If you're worried about hate, let me point you out to one of the pre-requisites: Divine Righteousness 1 (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhancement:Paladin_Divine_Righteousness_I).

Let's assume it stacks, since most benefits from Enhancements stack -- that's 400% threat generation while both are active. If you're going the FP/Tower Shield/Bracers way, you can get another 30% threat from the full list of Levik's Defender (plus +5 Insight). 430% hate generation, plus ES/DS is gonna do the trick most of the time.

[Junts]

If you're worried about hate, let me point you out to one of the pre-requisites: Divine Righteousness 1 (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhancement:Paladin_Divine_Righteousness_I).

Let's assume it stacks, since most benefits from Enhancements stack -- that's 400% threat generation while both are active. If you're going the FP/Tower Shield/Bracers way, you can get another 30% threat from the full list of Levik's Defender (plus +5 Insight). 430% hate generation, plus ES/DS is gonna do the trick most of the time.

assuming you can get to it to hit it, i concur that it should probably suffice (i admit, i wouldn't trade intimidate for managing aggro that way, though - but intimidate is ********, as I could probably show a5 year old how to intimitank the raidbosses that are effectively tanked that way) - if i the need, i suspect it'd be very interesting way to play those kind of fights.

but as someone who built their character with the intention of specializing exclusively in tanking in that fashion, its only become more and more clear to me over time that working in more dps would have been effective, because there's simply too many quests and raids where a high-caliber tank is completely unnecessary.

which, again, is why the best fighter intimitanks have the twf line and imp-crit pierce and swap to it pretty regularly. most parties lack the patience or skill to take advantage of an intimitank managing trashmobs for them.

[Dexxaan]

Wow... nice... I feel the Siberys will truly be defended now.

I also like the dr/20 epic for when even high AC isn't helping you out.

Does this put well geared Paly AC near well geared monk?

Going from 71 to 73 Unbuffed-Undispellable-Unboosted AC will be a nice thing. 76 with TierII DOS (Can´t and wouldn´t take 3rd)unless the +3 Sacred Dodge Bonus from Improved Stance is going to be in conflict with Chattering ring.


To be totally honest, I don't see how the other pally PrE's are even close to as powerful as this one. This one seems a bit excessive really.

Don´t get started on "Excessive"....that path leads to "Barbiearians" and Drizzt-Rangers.


With this and the right DT armor I should be close to 80 on a pure pally. While it's not the best I've seen I'd say that qualifies as near well geared monk, but with lots of other cool defensive abilities. He will be quite the tank next mod.

Please share your AC calculations for "close to 80 on a pure Pally"......I REALLY want to see them.


......

3. Knockdown. It would be both useful and thematic to add a knockdown immunity to Improved or Superior Defensive Stance- think about fighting Laliat or Xyzzy. Acrobat rogues get that ability permanently, so it should be fine to let certain Paladins have it temporarily. You wouldn't look like a "bastion" of defense flat on your back.

LOL - I hate that sprawled on your back look....wondering how to unstrap your Towershield in hopes of maybe making the next roll.


My build wouldn't get it - 18Pal/2Mnk.

Plus, the preview Capstones have been OK, but not necessary. It's as a Capstone should be -- good, but not overpowering and overshadowing multiclass builds (who generally gain other benefits from multiclassing).

So far....Capstones Schmapstones....

(Well planned) MultiClass FTW!

[Ustice]

I don't think that a duration on stance is needed. Since the speed is so dramatically reduced, it is only likely to be used for battles where you can make a stand. Just have a cost on activation, or make the duration like 1 minute per level (so 20 minutes at level 20). If there must be a timer, you could also make it 30 seconds per level + 30 seconds per charisma bonus.

If a DoS wants to run around with it activated, let him. He will be WAY behind the party. I the only people that I can see abusing this are cheese heads that won't find groups, and REALLY patient solo players. I know that I hate it when I have to walk across the marketplace without haste, so I can't see many people wanting to travel far in that state.

Instead of making tumbling impossible, just set the tumble skill to 0 so that the character hops with his shield. Allow him to retain the benefits of shield blocking in this state as well. It's a nice little bonus so that he can change position, while staying protected. Casting a spell should cancel the stance, of course.

I also hope that this is just MOVEMENT speed, and not attack speed. At 200% hate, you should be able to do enough DPS to keep the hate (which could be adjusted if it isn't working out that way), especially with intimidate. However, if the attack speed is reduced by half, that goes out the window.

[Deathseeker]

18 pally twfing zealing knight of the chalice is going to be the dps god of mod9

Yeah, was just playing with that concept myself...

This is all still quite premature though, considering we still have several capstones, some more PrE's, new spells, etc, etc. Tempest II and III are gonna really turn the world upside down one way or another...

I like Defender though...for a pure tank, its nifty. If ya dont wanna be a tank, well, not so much...

[nbhs275]

unfortunately you also have to be one iwth a lot more dex than it would have been smart to create one with; you can already use daggertooth's belt for 0 ap to mine 2 mdb out of armor, and few pure pallys would have chosen to go with more dex when they had nothing to gain from it.

Ok, math lesson

+5 MFP is 13 armor, 3 MD, DT fullplate is 15 armor, 1 MD. Meaning that even with a daggertooth belt, and this full line, your max dex on it would be 5. Which if at level 20 your build isnt able to hit a 20 dexterity and your built for AC, reroll. Dwarves could potentially push that to a max dex of 8, which means 26 dex needed,where you would almost have a leg to stand on.

So now a dwarf pally is looking at a

10 base
15 armor
9 shield
7 dex
2 alc
5 prot
5 bark
10 dodge
5 CE
4 insight
5 aura
_________
77,nevermind outside buffs and the boost to his auras

[Junts]

Yeah, was just playing with that concept myself...

This is all still quite premature though, considering we still have several capstones, some more PrE's, new spells, etc, etc. Tempest II and III are gonna really turn the world upside down one way or another...

I like Defender though...for a pure tank, its nifty. If ya dont wanna be a tank, well, not so much...

i see this being a big deal for tank type paladins who for some reason didnt splash to an intimidate class, but its a lot less compelling when its only the temporary boosts you're gaining (barring of course more info about the max dex bonus changes; 1 is not that profound, 2 or 3 is a big deal).

20 pallys, and monk/other splashes trying to tank will benefit a lot, those with rogue or fighter splashes and intimidate might be better served elsewhere.

[Tanka]

assuming you can get to it to hit it, i concur that it should probably suffice (i admit, i wouldn't trade intimidate for managing aggro that way, though - but intimidate is ********, as I could probably show a5 year old how to intimitank the raidbosses that are effectively tanked that way) - if i the need, i suspect it'd be very interesting way to play those kind of fights.
It's like the Barb's FB -- if you use the Stance all the time, you deserve to get left behind. It's only for certain fights - usually bosses/raid bosses.


Please share your AC calculations for "close to 80 on a pure Pally"......I REALLY want to see them.
Quick calcs on a Halfling TWF 18Pal/2Mnk lead to mid- to upper-70s in a raid party. I doubt a full Paladin could get too much higher than that.


So far....Capstones Schmapstones....

(Well planned) MultiClass FTW!
Capstones on pure-classes are a nice boon for "congrats, you made it without splashing". They aren't meant to be overpowered Enhancements that make multiclassers regret splashing.

I'm a little disappointed I can't get Kensai 3 on Tanka, but that's the tradeoff for good saves, crazy UMD, Evasion and some great DPS. Will I reroll? No way. Though, I am kinda thinking about taking 3 more Pally for KotC1. :D

[Junts]

Ok, math lesson

+5 MFP is 13 armor, 3 MD, DT fullplate is 15 armor, 1 MD. Meaning that even with a daggertooth belt, and this full line, your max dex on it would be 5. Which if at level 20 your build isnt able to hit a 20 dexterity and your built for AC, reroll. Dwarves could potentially push that to a max dex of 8, which means 26 dex needed,where you would almost have a leg to stand on.

So now a dwarf pally is looking at a

10 base
15 armor
9 shield
7 dex
2 alc
5 prot
5 bark
10 dodge
5 CE
4 insight
5 aura
_________
77,nevermind outside buffs and the boost to his auras


anyone who built before dt would have had no need whatsoever to build for a 5 mdb, as there simply wasnt a way to squeeze daggertooth into a paladin eq setup at that point (too many other modifiers you need, even saving on resist item with divine grace).

with knowledge of dt, sure, but mod7 and earlier you weren't building high dex for ac purposes, it would have been for dex-build pallyness

[Solmage]

Wow....

Ok I thought for sure I would be becoming one of those evil outsider hunters but this is YUMMY!!!

Problem is both go very well with my current paladin. **** my flexibility in builds, so he could switch to dual wielding dps from tower shield intimitank mode! :p

Now, just in case Eladrin is still reading this, I'm going to sneak in a question: Is there any plans at all to bring in DT chain shirts with a max dex of say 4-5? Pleeaaassee? :)

[Junts]

Wow....

Ok I thought for sure I would be becoming one of those evil outsider hunters but this is YUMMY!!!

Problem is both go very well with my current paladin. **** my flexibility in builds, so he could switch to dual wielding dps from tower shield intimitank mode! :p

gr, want 2 dex points somehow

someone go make angelus and borror succeed at the character respec argument; i'd relevel to make that exchange ;P

[GoldyGopher]

Was it just me or was everyone excited until they ran the numbers?

Seems to me it is an awful high cost to build a character that won't be able to hit anything; hence won't be getting aggro regardless of how much the modifier is...

Just my thoughts

[Tanka]

Was it just me or was everyone excited until they ran the numbers?

Seems to me it is an awful high cost to build a character that won't be able to hit anything; hence won't be getting aggro regardless of how much the modifier is...

Just my thoughts
Won't be able to hit? How do you figure? Because you can't understand that it isn't for mooks but for raid bosses?

It's like the people that think all Barbs will always be Frenzying. Those that do will be left dead for the quest to teach them a lesson.

[GoldyGopher]

Won't be able to hit? How do you figure? Because you can't understand that it isn't for mooks but for raid bosses?

It's like the people that think all Barbs will always be Frenzying. Those that do will be left dead for the quest to teach them a lesson.

Tell me with a what a 24/26 str, maybe 28 (assuming you take bare minimums in everything else) how many raid bosses do you think these characters will be hitting in order to hold the aggro.

The aggro system, as it now works, you hold the aggro for about 20 seconds before someone actually doing damage pulls it away.

You'll be better off with a Relativily High DPS/AC build holding the aggro. (Think Dex Ranger/Rogue in a Dress with a 60ish AC tanking.

[Turial]

Won't be able to hit? How do you figure? Because you can't understand that it isn't for mooks but for raid bosses?

It's like the people that think all Barbs will always be Frenzying. Those that do will be left dead for the quest to teach them a lesson.

Left dead and at the bottom of acid pits most likely.

Seems a bit counter though to have an AC PrE rely on damage to gain aggro and then give it a bonus AC bonus for turtling. One would hope that if you expect to get aggro through damage you would be able to fight through it.

Wonders how many mobs will have epic weapons?

[nbhs275]

Was it just me or was everyone excited until they ran the numbers?

Seems to me it is an awful high cost to build a character that won't be able to hit anything; hence won't be getting aggro regardless of how much the modifier is...

Just my thoughts

lets see, bab 20, +4 gh, +5 weapon...29 before your strength...which for a paladin in the defensive stance is 18 base +5 lvl +6 item +3 tome +4DoS, 36(40 if your a WF and using the bladesworn, which would also net you +1 with greatswords)

42 -2 towershield -5 Ce...hmm, 35 first swing still, yeeeeaaaa, im not very worried about hitting anything.

[Tanka]

Tell me with a what a 24/26 str, maybe 28 (assuming you take bare minimums in everything else) how many raid bosses do you think these characters will be hitting in order to hold the aggro.

The aggro system, as it now works, you hold the aggro for about 20 seconds before someone actually doing damage pulls it away.

You'll be better off with a Relativily High DPS/AC build holding the aggro. (Think Dex Ranger/Rogue in a Dress with a 60ish AC tanking.
Try 26-28 Str (depends on if you get a +2 tome), plus GH, plus bard songs, plus iterative attack bonuses...

If you, as a player, are missing more often than not, then you either need to reconsider stat allocation when you reroll, or you need to turn off CE because you're obviously not bringing AC to the party anyway since you're not hitting.

[Dexxaan]

Ok, math lesson

+5 MFP is 13 armor, 3 MD, DT fullplate is 15 armor, 1 MD. Meaning that even with a daggertooth belt, and this full line, your max dex on it would be 5. Which if at level 20 your build isnt able to hit a 20 dexterity and your built for AC, reroll. Dwarves could potentially push that to a max dex of 8, which means 26 dex needed,where you would almost have a leg to stand on.

So now a dwarf pally is looking at a

10 base
15 armor
9 shield
7 dex (7 DEX with a Tower Shield? :cool:)
2 alc
5 prot
5 bark (Easily available give the huge Qty of Rangers out there...but not on solo or just rezzed mode)
10 dodge (assuming CRing/DT + feat + ???? Please detail)
5 CE
4 insight (Wont stack if your using DTFP effec or leviks III)
5 aura
_________
77,nevermind outside buffs and the boost to his auras

Please recalculate.

Red = Holes need patching.


Seems to me it is an awful high cost to build a character that won't be able to hit anything; hence won't be getting aggro regardless of how much the modifier is...

Just my thoughts

Your thoughts are (IMO) unfortunately wrong.

If you want to give some credibility to your statement pls detail some #´s. As of now maybe if on Elite an just rezzed (no Buffs) most builds (except Fighters, and a Barb?)

[jmonty]

Please recalculate.

Red = Holes need patching.



Your thoughts are (IMO) unfortunately wrong.

If you want to give some credibility to your statement pls detail some #´s. As of now maybe if on Elite an just rezzed (no Buffs) most builds (except Fighters, and a Barb?)

(7 DEX with a Tower Shield?)

for the tower shield isn't it max dex of +4 for mithral, then +3 more from the 3rd tier of the PrE?

[Tanka]

(7 DEX with a Tower Shield?)

for the tower shield isn't it max dex of +4 for mithral, then +3 more from the 3rd tier of the PrE?
Unknown. It isn't said anywhere if any of the MDB increases will stack.

[Dexxaan]

(7 DEX with a Tower Shield?)

for the tower shield isn't it max dex of +4 for mithral, then +3 more from the 3rd tier of the PrE?

Yep.! I stand corrected if the effect is cumulative.

[dragnmoon]

Wait.... It doesn't say Official Preview.... Is it not official then?..;)

[jmonty]

Wait.... It doesn't say Official Preview.... Is it not official then?..;)

*checks calender*

it isn't april 1st.. :o

[Inspire]

What I am concerned about is if these stances can be used with other stances such as CE. If not there is not any AC benefit to be had here. Same with power attack. If they do stack then pallys will be getting a decent boost.

Monk stances work with PA and CE, I dont see why these shouldnt.

[elraido]

Would the 20dr/epic stack with the shield blocking dr of leviks defender (25 dr blocking)?

[Milolyen]

(7 DEX with a Tower Shield?)

for the tower shield isn't it max dex of +4 for mithral, then +3 more from the 3rd tier of the PrE?

We don't know if it is +3 added to max dex of a tower shield or just a +1 to max dex (ie they are not stacking bonuses) so to be on safe side for number crunching I would just use a +5 max dex bonus for mithral tower shield.

levik 3 would make it +5 insight bonus, but then could not use the bracers for +2 dodge (which I assume you are with the +10 dodge bonus CR for +3, dodge feat +1, bracers +2, stance for +4 = 10) but you can still get the levik 2 (shield/DT sov combo) for perm +3 insight or the +4 from shroud weapon (which means those are the only weapons you use for that to count).

Milolyen

[jmonty]

Wait.... It doesn't say Official Preview.... Is it not official then?..;)

if they do, i'll this this PrE, on one of my pallys at least, one with 2 lvls of fighter. probably will take it either way, but my original 28 point pure pally i'm not sure. (no CE, shield mastery, or towershield prof. :( )

[Aesop]

Would the 20dr/epic stack with the shield blocking dr of leviks defender (25 dr blocking)?

Shield Blocking is calculated by


Passive DR + [(BAB / 2) + 2 + Shield DR rating (now includes Shield Enhancement) + Shield Mastery Feats + Shield Mastery Enhancements]


the DR 20/Epic would count as Passive DR so it will stack

so a lvl 20 Dwarven Paladin with this Active and both Shield Mastery Feat and Enhancements would have

20 DR/epic +[10(bab/2) + 2 + 15(leviks) + 6(shield mastery and Imp) + 3(dwarven enh)] = 61





Aesop

[Inspire]

Ac; Current(Unbuffed)

10 Base
4 Dex
15 Armor(DT)
9 Shield
5 Deflection
4 Dodge(Ring/Feat)
5 Misc(Aura)
6 Feat(CE/Dodge)
5 Insight(LD III)
2 Ritual
Total(Unbuffed) Ac: 63


Defender Ac;

4 Dodge(Superior Stance)
2 Tower/Armor Dex Increase(With +3Dex tome could be 3)


Unbuffed Current/Defender Ac; 63/69


Did I miss anything?

[Aesop]

Ac; Current(Unbuffed)

10 Base
4 Dex
15 Armor(DT)
9 Shield
5 Deflection
4 Dodge(Ring/Feat)
5 Misc(Aura)
6 Feat(CE/Dodge)
5 Insight(LD III)
2 Ritual
Total(Unbuffed) Ac: 63


Defender Ac;

4 Dodge(Superior Stance)
2 Tower/Armor Dex Increase(With +3Dex tome could be 3)


Unbuffed Current/Defender Ac; 63/69


Did I miss anything?

did you double up on the Dodge Feat there?

Ring + Feat you have listed but you have CE and Dodge listed under Feat

Aesop

[Junts]

unless atlantean is a dwarf, too, you cant have a 4 mdb from it

[Inspire]

did you double up on the Dodge Feat there?

Ring + Feat you have listed but you have CE and Dodge listed under Feat

Aesop

Hmm the 6 feat must come from somewhere else... CE and ? character sheet dosent say.

[DaveyCrockett]

did you double up on the Dodge Feat there?

Ring + Feat you have listed but you have CE and Dodge listed under Feat

Aesop

I think he meant to have Ring/Alchemical

[Junts]

dodge feat shows as a feat bonus on the sheet

[Inspire]

unless atlantean is a dwarf, too, you cant have a 4 mdb from it

Daggertooths belt.

[Junts]

moves the dt mdb from 1 to 3.

i use it too

[Inspire]

Not sure I guess.

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr295/InspireJonathan/ScreenShot00207.jpg

[Aesop]

I think he meant to have Ring/Alchemical

nah that's ritual at the bottom.

can't think of what the extra Feat Bonus is... do you have TWD?

[Junts]

you have

10 base
15 dt
9 shield
3 mdb
2 alchemical
5 protection
5 ce
5 aura
5 insight
1 dodge feat
3 chattering ring

63

youd have 64 with chaosgarde and a 4 insight weapon

[sephiroth1084]

I'm a little concerned that it may be difficult to stick enemies with attacking when you will have trouble catching up to them. Even for raid bosses, some of them move around quite a bit, and the reduction to speed will make it difficult to land attacks on them.

So much other stuff to respond to since I read this thread in the morning...

How would the MDB function anyway? Would it be +3 mdb on towers, +2 on fp and +1 on MFP? That would be a little odd, since you would be able to get 5 Dex out of a normal tower shield, 7 out of a mithral one, 4 out of normal full-plate, and 4 out of mithral (which would be very interesting, making mfp=fp in this case). The Dex number is all over the place there. I suppose dwarves come out ahead here since they can get their mdb up to 7 with their armor to match the new high for mithral tower shields, though I cannot see many paladins hitting a 24 Dex regularly.

If we have the faith lines as a prereq. (6 **** AP), could we at least have some more variety in the base enhancement? Kinda sucks to have to spend 2 AP on the first one for no benefit if you are a dwarf, or use khopeshes, scimitars, rapiers, greatswords, etc... Yeah, my ideal paladin wields a longsword in PnP, but that is not the case in DDO. I don't mind (too much) the steep AP requirement at the top end there, particularly since the rest of the requirements for the PrE are SO accomodating, but I'd like 2 of that AP cost to not be a total waste.

My paladin with 28 Str was hitting most stuff on normal even on a 2 with CE up. When I got a +3 Str tome to push him to 30, he continued doing so. At 26 Str, I can't imagine I'd feel like I was losing out on much of anything (2 points of DPS isn't so bad). I am now considering rerolling Ferrumrym with 14 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 8 Wis, 15 Cha (dwarf) to get the most out of what the new paladin has to offer (with MAYBE a 2 lvl fighter splash instead of 4).

I agree that we need some way to deactivate the stance if it has a long duration (seems likely since 'stance' in DDO seems to mean something that is toggled on/off). PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do NOT have it deactivate when casting a spell! As far as I can tell, the CE issue was designed to ensure that casters weren't running around with a permanent +5 AC (since they didn't care about hitting things). Paladins have SPELLS and they have short durations, and we REALLY do NOT need to get yet another ability that has to be reactivated every time we renew Divine Favor, Prayer or Zeal.

[Venar]

ThesePrEs...
they have such steep pre-reqs... i just feel classes are getting pigeon holed and enhancement choices are getting thinned.

[DaveyCrockett]

ThesePrEs...
they have such steep pre-reqs... i just feel classes are getting pigeon holed and enhancement choices are getting thinned.

I think the Paladin Capstone should be 20 Action Points :D

[dejafu]

The hate generation feature seems like it can actually mesh very well with a multiclass intimipaladin.

Step 1: Activate stance.
Step 2: Use intimidate to draw aggro in your direction.
Step 3: Smite and Divine Sacrifice like crazy to establish damage-based aggro.

Switch steps 1 and 2 if you need to chase down whatever you're trying to aggro. Also introduce

Step 4) Use intimidate again

if aggro accidentally gets broken by the overeager Frenzied Berserker.

This helps our friendly neighborhood intimadin out in a couple of ways:
1) It gives them something to do besides shield blocking and intimidate spamming the entire time - alternate between blocking and smiting, which is much more interesting.
2) It means they don't have to keep that intimidate item on the entire time to maintain aggro, they just need it to grab the initial aggro.
3) It also means that even if your intimidate gear isn't optimal for grabbing the aggro of mobs like Sally, all you need is to get off one successful intimidate roll to grab AND keep aggro.

I realize that in ideal situations, intimidate and extra hate generation seem like redundant abilities, but actual play in this game is often anything BUT ideal situations. I likes me my options ;)

Overall, I'm very pleased. Was torn between the other two prestige classes for my intimadin, but now my choice is clear :D

[etelan]

I think the Paladin Capstone should be 20 Action Points :D

/signed

[Aesop]

I think the Paladin Capstone should be 20 Action Points :D

Pass me some of what you're smokin

I think ALL CHARACTERS should get +10 AP once they hit level 20... call Epic Action

[Stamp3de]

Nice, my new pally will be up there just in time to enjoy that stuff :D
PvP Paladins just got a little overpowered.

[sephiroth1084]

/signed

/signed

Or! reduce the AP cost of all abilities by 1. Yes, that will mean some are free. =)

[Turial]

Shield Blocking is calculated by


Passive DR + [(BAB / 2) + 2 + Shield DR rating (now includes Shield Enhancement) + Shield Mastery Feats + Shield Mastery Enhancements]


the DR 20/Epic would count as Passive DR so it will stack

so a lvl 20 Dwarven Paladin with this Active and both Shield Mastery Feat and Enhancements would have

20 DR/epic +[10(bab/2) + 2 + 15(leviks) + 6(shield mastery and Imp) ] = 58 + 20 (30) = 78 (88)


With a little editing we see how scary a Warforged DOD Paladin might get with DR.

[dejafu]

/signed

Or! reduce the AP cost of all abilities by 1. Yes, that will mean some are free. =)

In all seriousness, though, it wouldn't be a bad idea to reduce the AP cost of the Paladin and Cleric Faith enhancements - 1 AP for the first tier, 2 or 3 for the second (I realize that the Sovereign Host enhancement may be worth more than 2 AP, though its incredibly slow cooldown makes me think that 2 may still be fair).

Beyond that, any proposals for making Faith enhancements more worthwhile?

[Aesop]

With a little editing we see how scary a Warforged DOD Paladin might get with DR.

I doubt that The Titanic Docent or Docent of Defiance effect or any other passive DR bonuses will stack so actually Dwarf would still win out by 3 though a WF could have a decent standing DR of about 10 or so by level 20


Aesop

[etelan]

In all seriousness, though, it wouldn't be a bad idea to reduce the AP cost of the Paladin and Cleric Faith enhancements - 1 AP for the first tier, 2 or 3 for the second (I realize that the Sovereign Host enhancement may be worth more than 2 AP, though its incredibly slow cooldown makes me think that 2 may still be fair).

Beyond that, any proposals for making Faith enhancements more worthwhile?

1 and 2 or 3 sounds like a great idea. Reducing the steep extra smite cost for sacrifice and smite would also save some points. Just knock the prereq extra smite down 1 level for each level of sacrifice and smite.

[Deathseeker]

The dodge bonus is cool for someone in plate. However as long as it doesnt lead to more power creep. Shroud devils and some high level monsters have started hitting more often now that icy raiments and all the monk splashes have been showing up. There is no point adding more dodge bonuses to classes if high level monsters get the same bonus added to hit - it just kills people under a 50 ac even faster.

Keep in mind this logic could be said about any useful benefit given a player? You commented earlier that Magic Circle is pretty useless, then worried that the useful item may lead to power creep.

Kind of a "half empty" way to look at things, no? Cheer up gloomy gus! :D

[SteeleTrueheart]

Eladrin is obviously on holidays and this post is one he set to hidden before he left. Tolero brought it out of hidden status for today. So don't expect any answers until Eladrin in back from his break.

From my understanding of the way enhancements are normally written makes me believe that the Dex bonus will only be +1 and the line just expands the range that the +1 affects ie. Tower Shields -> heavy armor-> medium armor.

I will say more when I am not at work.

My pure paladin is envious of all these AC calculations that others have, he walks around with a 50AC ... it may be time to reroll... :(

[fishbai8]

ANYONE KNOW ABOUT THE DURATION ON THESE STANCES? i mean do they last till you end them or are they 20 sec just like boosts?

[noinfo]

My hope is that the stance is not timed at all, but is affected by casting spells etc, that way it is not unlimited but is not useless. Agreed on tumbling and knockdown, and if not an immunity then at least a nice bonus vs knockdown

And that the stance is cumaltive with other stances PA and CE or it will be useless.

[Stamp3de]

And that the stance is cumaltive with other stances PA and CE or it will be useless.

Ya it would suck to have CE as on of the possible prereqs. and then not be able to have them both active.

[Ralmeth]

-sigh- can we PLEASE get a bump to our actual Intimidate instead of these "Increased hate from Melee Attacks" THing?

I was thinking the same thing...

Overall it looks interesting, but then so have so many other Paladin additions. The proof will be in the pudding, or actual game play. My take, as a long-standing Pally intimitank:
-I love the increase to max dex bonus to armor and tower shield. Very nice. If only I'd known this I would not have gone 3 levels of Fighter for the tower shield enhancement. Now with my current build I just need a +4 tome to take advantage of that. In fact, what Paladin tank right now would have built their guy with a high dex in mind if you knew you were not going to be able to use it? So in order to take full advantage of this PrC you will likely need to reroll.
-The AC increase from dodge bonus is very nice. Excellent:) But how long will this boost / stance last?
-Gaining aggro I found is much easier by pressing the intimidate button. A monster running away from you, chasing a squishy? You just have to get close enough to peel off the aggro. Excellent chance of grabbing aggro from a group of mobs? Hit intimidate. The increased hate does look really cool on tier 3. This will be helpful I think against mobs that you cannot intimidate.
-Tier 3 looks awesome! Too bad when I made my Pally Intimitank I didn't know that anything useful was going to be added after level 11 of Paladin. So I'll be stuck with tier 2, or a reroll. I'm sorry, but I've already rerolled my guy half a dozen times over the course of a couple of years to get him right (I am a casual player after all). Not sure I'm thrilled with the idea of doing it again. Think I'll work on my Sorcerer and Tempest Ranger.

So my proposed new Defender Build: Paladin 18 / Rogue 2
Rogue for evasion, intimidate and UMD. As nice as the increased hate will be, I think you will still really want intimidate on this build. And as as much as I think this will end up being the optimal build, I just find it so un-Paladin like to take Rogue levels. This PrC should grant intimidate as a class skill. That way it will make it possible to take 2 levels of Monk to pick up evasion and avoid the Rogue levels. It would also make it possible to make a pure Paladin defender with intimidate.

[Junts]

Eladrin is obviously on holidays and this post is one he set to hidden before he left. Tolero brought it out of hidden status for today. So don't expect any answers until Eladrin in back from his break.

From my understanding of the way enhancements are normally written makes me believe that the Dex bonus will only be +1 and the line just expands the range that the +1 affects ie. Tower Shields -> heavy armor-> medium armor.

I will say more when I am not at work.

My pure paladin is envious of all these AC calculations that others have, he walks around with a 50AC ... it may be time to reroll... :(

i agree with you; i also think this is too bad, as only gaining a passive +1 ac for the whole line is a relatively meager innate defensive bonus. so many of the cool features of this class are activated via the stance (which hopefully doesnt have limited usages, but just the speed issue will make it nonpervasive), and that's an interesting comparison to hunter of the dead, since they actually get some of the same benefits (eg, healing amp), but hunter has its benefits all the time.

[dragonofsteel2]

i agree with you; i also think this is too bad, as only gaining a passive +1 ac for the whole line is a relatively meager innate defensive bonus. so many of the cool features of this class are activated via the stance (which hopefully doesnt have limited usages, but just the speed issue will make it nonpervasive), and that's an interesting comparison to hunter of the dead, since they actually get some of the same benefits (eg, healing amp), but hunter has its benefits all the time.

Also does not seem would gain much AC from the stance just agro holding methods since can not go into CE, from what I know only can be in one stance at once. So with the whole line lose 1 AC, but will have better agro holding tank that is for sure. To me look more impressive to start, but not sure if really is with the rules, with one stance and if you guys right just upping the +1 to med. heavy on the second two.

[Junts]

Also does not seem would gain much AC from the stance just agro holding methods since can not go into CE, from what I know only can be in one stance at once. So with the whole line lose 1 AC, but will have better agro holding tank that is for sure. To me look more impressive to start, but not sure if really is with the rules, with one stance and if you guys right just upping the +1 to med. heavy on the second two.

I have the feeling that this won't be exclusive with combat expertise just like monk stances aren't; the question is whether it has any other limiting factors besides the movement speed (eg a uses per day, a duration, etc), as it seems unlikely to me that they would permit it to be so effective in enclosed situations.

[dragonofsteel2]

I have the feeling that this won't be exclusive with combat expertise just like monk stances aren't; the question is whether it has any other limiting factors besides the movement speed (eg a uses per day, a duration, etc), as it seems unlikely to me that they would permit it to be so effective in enclosed situations.

Either way need more explaining to understand how it works. See no problem with the two different things stacking if was not for had to go into combat expertise, maybe just me is seems kind goofy to be able fight two different styles at same time. Although guess can explain it away saying that practice combat expertise in the pally new stance and say not really stance just more defensive type of fighting.

Though after all these new changes coming up really would like one time total re-spec. of all characters. Probably will not get it, but just another change that might influence the way built my pally/fighter.

[Junts]

Either way need more explaining to understand how it works. See no problem with the two different things stacking if was not for had to go into combat expertise, maybe just me is seems kind goofy to be able fight two different styles at same time. Although guess can explain it away saying that practice combat expertise in the pally new stance and say not really stance just more defensive type of fighting.

Though after all these new changes coming up really would like one time total re-spec. of all characters. Probably will not get it, but just another change that might influence the way built my pally/fighter.

you can use ce and monk stances at the same time..

[dragonofsteel2]

you can use ce and monk stances at the same time..

Never said you could not :D, all said does not make much sense to me then explain it away lol.

[dragonofsteel2]

Ok, math lesson

+5 MFP is 13 armor, 3 MD, DT fullplate is 15 armor, 1 MD. Meaning that even with a daggertooth belt, and this full line, your max dex on it would be 5. Which if at level 20 your build isnt able to hit a 20 dexterity and your built for AC, reroll. Dwarves could potentially push that to a max dex of 8, which means 26 dex needed,where you would almost have a leg to stand on.

So now a dwarf pally is looking at a

10 base
15 armor
9 shield
7 dex
2 alc
5 prot
5 bark
10 dodge
5 CE
4 insight
5 aura
_________
77,nevermind outside buffs and the boost to his auras

Yeah can make Ac build hit 80, dam already got one hits 70 self buff, although adding 5 bark-skin and best can do 4 with the boots or 4 with new armor. So really would be one less self buff with current items, hits your 77 if a dwarf wit 8 dex. Lot information still not in, so to soon for me to say how good this is or not. I do like some things coming down so far, waiting with interest of the other new changes.

[Angelus_dead]

When making my own predicted designs for Defender of Siberys and Stalwart Defender, I gave them 2 charges of Defensive Stance that regenerated every 90 seconds (like Smite Evil), on the theory that the player should be able to use the ability a lot, but not 100% of the time. But that's something difficult to judge outside of playtest (especially without knowing the duration, or how strong the speed penalty really is)

However, I recommend that Defender of Siberys get some additional uses, even if they don't regenerate over time. At minimum I suggest +1 charge of AC Boost per tier of the specialty.

Please note that the only other specialty to make important use of a boost (Kensai Power Surge) does grant increased charges. Also, because the Kensai's ability doesn't restrict his movement, he's more able to use the same charge for multiple encounters. And, a Kensai will have less incentive to stack Power Surge + Attack Boost than a Defender does to stack Defensive Stance + AC Boost.

[SynfoolaCMT]

My monk with a 70's standing ac says it would be nice to have PLATE wearers be on the front line.

/signed

Because 53 AC at lev 12 with all the millions I spent to get there feels like a letdown when someone in a dress runs daintily by and is untouchable. :O

[Lillitheris]

Well well well, what do we have here...

This one looks awesome. Having said that, the other two paladin PrEs look even less appealing now.

A couple of points/suggestions:


The stance must be a stance. Toggle on/off and expend one armor boost per activation ('on'). A 30 sec cooldown might be in order. The speed decrease is enough of a penalty in itself. If the defensive stance is yet another button to smash in the hectic clicky-fest paladins already have... :mad:
The stance shouldn't be interrupted by casting a spell or activating another stance (PA, CE).
The pseudo-intimidate ie. melee hate generation seems okay. It should be useful against normal monsters too; intimidate (skill) + cleave will guarantee some long-lasting hate.
Unlike the other paladin PrEs, this one has mostly useful pre-reqs. A tanking paladin should already have at least one of the required feats. Faith II on the other hand... well at least Unyelding Sovereignity is 'okay'.
Like Angelus_Dead suggested, the higher tier stances should make you immune/very resistant to knockdown.
+40 hps, +100% healing amplification, +400% hate, +4 AC (possibly +2/+3 more with heavy armor/tower shields), CLW on hit, DR20/epic, immune to wounding; vorpal and the like, reduced damage from elemental and negative attacks.... I can't see how any defensively built paladin wouldn't want to take this PrE.

[Venar]

I know the WF hate-generation toggle is turned off by rage. So i dont have much hopes for stacking.

[Cold_Stele]

I know the WF hate-generation toggle is turned off by rage. So i dont have much hopes for stacking.

The guy who started the thread on that was told to bug report it by Eladrin.

Interesting to see that the devs have agreed with the genius (me ;)) who said the simplest way to solve the Pally Intimidate problem was just to boost hate generation and make it a stance...

[Milolyen]

When making my own predicted designs for Defender of Siberys and Stalwart Defender, I gave them 2 charges of Defensive Stance that regenerated every 90 seconds (like Smite Evil), on the theory that the player should be able to use the ability a lot, but not 100% of the time. But that's something difficult to judge outside of playtest (especially without knowing the duration, or how strong the speed penalty really is)

However, I recommend that Defender of Siberys get some additional uses, even if they don't regenerate over time. At minimum I suggest +1 charge of AC Boost per tier of the specialty.

Please note that the only other specialty to make important use of a boost (Kensai Power Surge) does grant increased charges. Also, because the Kensai's ability doesn't restrict his movement, he's more able to use the same charge for multiple encounters. And, a Kensai will have less incentive to stack Power Surge + Attack Boost than a Defender does to stack Defensive Stance + AC Boost.

Well if you look at the discription it states that you use a armor boost when you go into this stance and it says stance and not boost. So my guess would be that it is a stance you can turn on and off like power attack, CE is one of the required feats so I would guess that this would be on a different stance setting like monk stances are. Then you would be able to go into that stance as long as you have an armor boost available to you which is what ... 5 per rest if I am not mistaken?

Milolyen

[Eladrin]

Stopping by for a moment to answer a couple of questions before zooming off again...

Defensive Stance is a stance, on its own channel. You can't be in Stalwart Defender Defensive Stance and Defender of Siberys Defensive Stance simultaneously, but it should stack with things like Combat Expertise. It lasts until you voluntarily leave it; speed penalties tend to be pretty crippling when you aren't actively defending. (Remember the original Mountain Stance?)

Defensive Stance doesn't break on spellcast like Combat Expertise does, but as an "ability that require patience or concentration", you cannot enter a rage while in Defensive Stance. (Originally we had it the other way around, with enrage effects dispelling Defensive Stance, but ran into the "my party member cast rage and knocked me out of my stance" problem.)


increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields and medium or heavy armor by 1
These are cumulative. By tier three, the Paladin gets +3 to MDB of Tower Shields, +2 to Heavy Armor, and +1 to Medium Armor.

[maddmatt70]

Stopping by for a moment to answer a couple of questions before zooming off again...

Defensive Stance is a stance, on its own channel. You can't be in Stalwart Defender Defensive Stance and Defender of Siberys Defensive Stance simultaneously, but it should stack with things like Combat Expertise. It lasts until you voluntarily leave it; speed penalties tend to be pretty crippling when you aren't actively defending. (Remember the original Mountain Stance?)

Defensive Stance doesn't break on spellcast like Combat Expertise does, but as an "ability that require patience or concentration", you cannot enter a rage while in Defensive Stance. (Originally we had it the other way around, with enrage effects dispelling Defensive Stance, but ran into the "my party member cast rage and knocked me out of my stance" problem.)


These are cumulative. By tier three, the Paladin gets +3 to MDB of Tower Shields, +2 to Heavy Armor, and +1 to Medium Armor.

Thanks for stopping by Eladrin. Just a couple of quick clarification questions. Tier 1 adds an ac to shield blocking - what exactly is the bonus atm? Tier 3 adds a bonus to all auras - what is the bonus?

[ArkoHighStar]

Stopping by for a moment to answer a couple of questions before zooming off again...

Defensive Stance is a stance, on its own channel. You can't be in Stalwart Defender Defensive Stance and Defender of Siberys Defensive Stance simultaneously, but it should stack with things like Combat Expertise. It lasts until you voluntarily leave it; speed penalties tend to be pretty crippling when you aren't actively defending. (Remember the original Mountain Stance?)

Defensive Stance doesn't break on spellcast like Combat Expertise does, but as an "ability that require patience or concentration", you cannot enter a rage while in Defensive Stance. (Originally we had it the other way around, with enrage effects dispelling Defensive Stance, but ran into the "my party member cast rage and knocked me out of my stance" problem.)


These are cumulative. By tier three, the Paladin gets +3 to MDB of Tower Shields, +2 to Heavy Armor, and +1 to Medium Armor.


nice any comment on the amount of extra ac from blocking, and what the bonuses to defensive aura's will be or is that the increase to max dex bonus

[ArkoHighStar]

Thanks for stopping by Eladrin. Just a couple of quick clarification questions. Tier 1 adds an ac to shield blocking - what exactly is the bonus atm? Tier 3 adds a bonus to all auras - what is the bonus?

well looks like we were thinking of the same thing :D

[Lithic]

...It lasts until you voluntarily leave it; speed penalties tend to be pretty crippling when you aren't actively defending. (Remember the original Mountain Stance?)...


If you want the speed penalty to be cripling, make sure you cant just tumble to get around it like the docent of defiance.

[sephiroth1084]

snip

Happy X-mas and/or Chanukah Eladrin!

/hug

[Angelus_dead]

Defensive Stance doesn't break on spellcast like Combat Expertise does, but as an "ability that require patience or concentration", you cannot enter a rage while in Defensive Stance. (Originally we had it the other way around, with enrage effects dispelling Defensive Stance, but ran into the "my party member cast rage and knocked me out of my stance" problem.)
I suggest you change that rule, and allow the Rage spell to freely stack with Defensive Stance. Barbarian Rage can still conflict with it (as can the Half-orc Rage racial enhancement).

There are two reasons to do that:
1. Consistency. DDO already allows characters under the Rage spell to cast spells, use Combat Expertise, Move Silently, and otherwise concentrate steadily.

2. Game balance. The +4/+4 str/con of Superior Defensive Stance becomes a lot less attractive if it's really only +2/+2 because it conflicts with the +2/+2 you could already have easily gotten from a Rage potion. And if it also obstructs Madstone Rage... screw it.

PS. All characters would enjoy a checkbox in their gameplay preferences to "decline" incoming Rage spells.

[Gratan]

I suggest you change that rule, and allow the Rage spell to freely stack with Defensive Stance. Barbarian Rage can still conflict with it (as can the Half-orc Rage racial enhancement).

There are two reasons to do that:
1. Consistency. DDO already allows characters under the Rage spell to cast spells, use Combat Expertise, Move Silently, and otherwise concentrate steadily.

2. Game balance. The +4/+4 str/con of Superior Defensive Stance becomes a lot less attractive if it's really only +2/+2 because it conflicts with the +2/+2 you could already have easily gotten from a Rage potion. And if it also obstructs Madstone Rage... screw it.

PS. All characters would enjoy a checkbox in their gameplay preferences to "decline" incoming Rage spells.

You bet a check box for incoming rage spells would be apreicated. It gets really annoying when you do everything to get your AC up to a decent level and then have some one cast rage on you and then you lose 2 points of AC. Some poeple think the the +1 to hit and +1 to dam. off sets this penalty but i know many that do not agree with that at all. It didnt use to be much of a problem because not many carried the spell but now every bard and wizard and some sorcs seem to carry it and cast it every time they cast a haste. I like that we will not be able to be raged while in defensive stance. It is counter productive. If I am in a defensive stance I want Ac. I dont want to lose AC to get better to hits and damage.

[Angelus_dead]

I like that we will not be able to be raged while in defensive stance. It is counter productive. If I am in a defensive stance I want Ac. I dont want to lose AC to get better to hits and damage.
It would be better if you had a checkbox so you could toggle whether or not you'd like Rage + Defensive Stance at the same time. There are times when AC isn't helping you, and you'd be better defended with higher hitpoints from a total +6 con with Rage + Defensive Stance.

[Ustice]

Or make it like Greater Teleport, where you have to accept it. Alternatively, right click on a buff from a spell to have it expire immediately. If someone casts it, you can just kill it then. No extra UI needed.

[Angelus_dead]

Alternatively, right click on a buff from a spell to have it expire immediately. If someone casts it, you can just kill it then. No extra UI needed.
Uh, that would be a tremendously bigger addition to the UI.

It would also be less effective in the typical situation that a person is in the middle of fighting a boss and he gets Rage cast on him right then.

[Ustice]

Uh, that would be a tremendously bigger addition to the UI.

It would also be less effective in the typical situation that a person is in the middle of fighting a boss and he gets Rage cast on him right then.

I guess it technically does, since you can't interact with those icons at the moment, but there is no extra art needed.

I'd still like to have both, since there is sometimes a need to remove buffs, and you can accept by hitting the enter key on the numeric pad.

[sephiroth1084]

I suggest you change that rule, and allow the Rage spell to freely stack with Defensive Stance. Barbarian Rage can still conflict with it (as can the Half-orc Rage racial enhancement).

There are two reasons to do that:
1. Consistency. DDO already allows characters under the Rage spell to cast spells, use Combat Expertise, Move Silently, and otherwise concentrate steadily.

2. Game balance. The +4/+4 str/con of Superior Defensive Stance becomes a lot less attractive if it's really only +2/+2 because it conflicts with the +2/+2 you could already have easily gotten from a Rage potion. And if it also obstructs Madstone Rage... screw it.

PS. All characters would enjoy a checkbox in their gameplay preferences to "decline" incoming Rage spells.

With the way the PrE seems to have been designed, I'd think that disallowing it to function with Madstone rage seems appropriate.

[Angelus_dead]

With the way the PrE seems to have been designed, I'd think that disallowing it to function with Madstone rage seems appropriate.
Since you can use Combat Expertise with Madstone Rage, it would make sense for Defensive Stance to be usable too. Barbarian Rage is the only one that prevents CE.

Aside from the style justification, the Defensive Stance will be pretty nerfed if it doesn't work with Madstone. Currently people are judging Defensive Stance as if it gives a +4 con bonus, meaning +40 hp at level 20. That's a moderate defensive improvement even against threats where AC is no good. But if it won't stack with Madstone, you don't actually have any real constitution gain- the Sacred bonus is cancelled out by losing a rage.

[sephiroth1084]

Since you can use Combat Expertise with Madstone Rage, it would make sense for Defensive Stance to be usable too. Barbarian Rage is the only one that prevents CE.

Aside from the style justification, the Defensive Stance will be pretty nerfed if it doesn't work with Madstone. Currently people are judging Defensive Stance as if it gives a +4 con bonus, meaning +40 hp at level 20. That's a moderate defensive improvement even against threats where AC is no good. But if it won't stack with Madstone, you don't actually have any real constitution gain- the Sacred bonus is cancelled out by losing a rage.

How many pure paladins are running around with the boots on anyway? With having to renew DF and Zeal frequently, MSR seems like a hassle. Plus, the PrC seems geared toward netting you that meanigful AC from which rage detracts.

This offers an alternate route to madstone.

[Tanka]

How many pure paladins are running around with the boots on anyway? With having to renew DF and Zeal frequently, MSR seems like a hassle. Plus, the PrC seems geared toward netting you that meanigful AC from which rage detracts.

This offers an alternate route to madstone.
How many? The intelligent ones who realized Extend Spell would be better than an extra Toughness.

[sephiroth1084]

How many? The intelligent ones who realized Extend Spell would be better than an extra Toughness.

I have 1 toughness and 1 extend, but still don't use the boots. What is the duration on the rage, and don't you run the risk of having the on-hit rage proc just before you want to renew your spells? What's better, +4 Str and Con, or +10% to your attack speed?

Besides, I can't fit the boots into my equipment allocation anyway.

[Tanka]

I have 1 toughness and 1 extend, but still don't use the boots. What is the duration on the rage, and don't you run the risk of having the on-hit rage proc just before you want to renew your spells? What's better, +4 Str and Con, or +10% to your attack speed?

Besides, I can't fit the boots into my equipment allocation anyway.
2 minute duration.

Buff with spells, hit boots, switch to another pair of boots.

Bam. Done.

[Irongutz2000]

I have 1 toughness and 1 extend, but still don't use the boots. What is the duration on the rage, and don't you run the risk of having the on-hit rage proc just before you want to renew your spells? What's better, +4 Str and Con, or +10% to your attack speed?

Besides, I can't fit the boots into my equipment allocation anyway.

Ya i have like 3 sets of boots onn pali just for clickies, an i only use them when i am going crazy dps boss killin mode :D I don't keep them equiped it annoys me to have them go off at bad times.

[sephiroth1084]

2 minute duration.

Buff with spells, hit boots, switch to another pair of boots.

Bam. Done.

You mean:

Buff with Divine Favor and Zeal, hit boots, bring up CE, switch out boots, fight for 2 minutes (throw in 2 Divine Mights also), and then do it again.

I tried that with a swappable Wisdom item to cast spells and found it frustrating as hell. I guess I'll roll on the boots the next time they pop up during the Reaver, but I think that that is too much additional frustration for +2 attack/damage and +32 HP. To each their own I suppose, but their not functioning with the new stance is HARDLY a breaking point for the PrE: you get the same stat-boost while in the new stance without the problems with drinking potions, using wands or casting spells, and it doesn't take up an equipment slot.

[sephiroth1084]

Eladrin, a thought just occurred to me: since you implied that the Dwarven Defender-esque PrE that the fighter gets will have a defensive stance similar to that of the Defender of Siberys, will it also work off of Armor Class Action Boosts? If so, will this be an odd way of barring paladins and fighters from dipping into each other's defender PrE? Is that intentional?

[Tanka]

You mean:

Buff with Divine Favor and Zeal, hit boots, bring up CE, switch out boots, fight for 2 minutes (throw in 2 Divine Mights also), and then do it again.

I tried that with a swappable Wisdom item to cast spells and found it frustrating as hell. I guess I'll roll on the boots the next time they pop up during the Reaver, but I think that that is too much additional frustration for +2 attack/damage and +32 HP. To each their own I suppose, but their not functioning with the new stance is HARDLY a breaking point for the PrE: you get the same stat-boost while in the new stance without the problems with drinking potions, using wands or casting spells, and it doesn't take up an equipment slot.
Who says you have to Madstone every two minutes? The best times to do it are:

Shroud 4: Each time you're about to have a go at Harry.
Shroud 5: When you're about to attack Harry. Maybe a second time if the Clerics need a few to recoup some SP in a still-available pool.

...Yeah, that's about it.

In cases like that, every bit of DPS helps.

[sephiroth1084]

Who says you have to Madstone every two minutes? The best times to do it are:

Shroud 4: Each time you're about to have a go at Harry.
Shroud 5: When you're about to attack Harry. Maybe a second time if the Clerics need a few to recoup some SP in a still-available pool.

...Yeah, that's about it.

In cases like that, every bit of DPS helps.

Hadn't thought of it from that perspective, though the issues with wands and potions still makes me somewhat leery about using them. Still, you've given me something to think over, and try out when I have the chance.

[Tanka]

Hadn't thought of it from that perspective, though the issues with wands and potions still makes me somewhat leery about using them. Still, you've given me something to think over, and try out when I have the chance.
What wands and potions, exactly, are you using in the middle of fighting Harry?

You should already have Neutralize Poison, you're immune to Disease, a CSW would lower your DPS (besides, the Clerics should be using Mass Cures anyway), Fire Prot doesn't use the funnel tech...

Anything else I'm missing?

[sephiroth1084]

What wands and potions, exactly, are you using in the middle of fighting Harry?

You should already have Neutralize Poison, you're immune to Disease, a CSW would lower your DPS (besides, the Clerics should be using Mass Cures anyway), Fire Prot doesn't use the funnel tech...

Anything else I'm missing?

Okay, but how many situations in the game like that are there? My point, that the stance not stacking with Madstone isn't a big deal, still stands.

[slumbering_dragon]

ok os during your stance u cant enter a rage, so if u are raged before does it dispell it, and what about madstone rage. so in full respect i cant be madstone raged during madstone crater. so i can still cast spells and what not right. eladrin let me know oh madstone rage and blood rage will exactly work.

[Angelus_dead]

Buff with Divine Favor and Zeal, hit boots, bring up CE, switch out boots, fight for 2 minutes (throw in 2 Divine Mights also), and then do it again.
As already explained, there are kinds of fights where you DON'T need AC, but you DO need strength and hitpoints. To be attractive enough to outweigh the costs to mobility and AP, Defender of Siberys needs to not only protect the user, but also make him a more dangerous combatant when he can stand in one place. If Defensive Stance won't raise the character's peak str or con, then the specialty loses a lot of attractiveness compared to the other two (or just compared to investing it all in fancy smites)

Furthermore, all these problems can apply to the fighter's Stalwart Defensive Stance too.

[Angelus_dead]

Okay, but how many situations in the game like that are there? My point, that the stance not stacking with Madstone isn't a big deal, still stands.
It's foolish to evaluate enhancements based on existing situations, unless you're so pessimistic as to assume quest development has concluded.

[icculus]

Defensive Stance is a stance, on its own channel. You can't be in Stalwart Defender Defensive Stance and Defender of Siberys Defensive Stance simultaneously...

OUCH! :(
This is a major mistake and should be reconsidered. Currently all PrE that can be taken simulataneously do stack, and frankly there is no good reason for these NOT to stack since they do in PnP anyway.

Finally, not letting them stack seriously hurts Ftr/Pal multiclasses needlessly more than their inability to qualify for tier3 enhancements already does :mad:


I would definitely be interested in the reasoning behind this rather surprising revelation...:confused:

[sephiroth1084]

OUCH! :(
This is a major mistake and should be reconsidered. Currently all PrE that can be taken simulataneously do stack, and frankly there is no good reason for these NOT to stack since they do in PnP anyway.

Finally, not letting them stack serious hurts Ftr/Pal multiclasses needlessly more than their inability to qualify for tier3 enhancements already does :mad:


I would definitely be interested in the reasoning behind this rather surprising revelation...:confused:

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that the two will have very similar prerequisites and abilities, meaning that, for almost the same cost, you could multiclass with one at 6 and one at 12 and get nearly double your investment.

[sephiroth1084]

As already explained, there are kinds of fights where you DON'T need AC, but you DO need strength and hitpoints. To be attractive enough to outweigh the costs to mobility and AP, Defender of Siberys needs to not only protect the user, but also make him a more dangerous combatant when he can stand in one place. If Defensive Stance won't raise the character's peak str or con, then the specialty loses a lot of attractiveness compared to the other two (or just compared to investing it all in fancy smites)

Furthermore, all these problems can apply to the fighter's Stalwart Defensive Stance too.


It's foolish to evaluate enhancements based on existing situations, unless you're so pessimistic as to assume quest development has concluded.

And you are arguing that its not stacking with madstone is a detriment, yet as far as I can tell, the number of situations where this would matter is fairly limited, both because madstone rage hurts paladins in a few ways, and because there are so few fights where the small boost is more important than AC and is better than a specialty weapon (WoP, Vorp, etc...).

It also means that you do not have to run the Reaver over and over trying to get the boots (that si reserved for +3 tomes, the Head and Madstone shield until you get up to running the Hound), because you can get the same bonus in your class.

Also, for those paladins with UMD, not using the boots is a good idea. And there have been times in Shroud part 5 and sometimes 4 (but rarely) that I have stepped back a moment to wand myself or drink some pots because the clerics weren't working at full throttle, or one died, or we hit some bad lag.

Yes, it would be better if paladins could get +8 Str and +8 Con from the boots and their stance, but all I'm saying is that if they do not stack, it isn't a matter to make a fuss over because it is a fairly insignificant issue.

[maddmatt70]

As already explained, there are kinds of fights where you DON'T need AC, but you DO need strength and hitpoints. To be attractive enough to outweigh the costs to mobility and AP, Defender of Siberys needs to not only protect the user, but also make him a more dangerous combatant when he can stand in one place. If Defensive Stance won't raise the character's peak str or con, then the specialty loses a lot of attractiveness compared to the other two (or just compared to investing it all in fancy smites)

Furthermore, all these problems can apply to the fighter's Stalwart Defensive Stance too.

I agree in the sense that offense wins out over defense in ddo. Back in old school mod 1-2ish it was more defense over offense, but that has not been the case for quite some time. I don't have much interest in rolling up a defensive syberys character or running with these characters unless they can do some offense. I think this prestige class is fine for what it does, but its alot like an archer in ddo really where it is a less adequate form of combat.

[icculus]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that the two will have very similar prerequisites and abilities, meaning that, for almost the same cost, you could multiclass with one at 6 and one at 12 and get nearly double your investment.

I suspect that is the reason, but until it is confirmed, it is hard to say. However, if we accept that Stalwart Defender and Siberys Defender are similar enough to be effectively identical, then Tier2 + Tier1 would only give +5 STR/CON/AC +3 Save and +150% hate, compared to Tier3 of +4 STR/CON/AC +3 Save and +200% hate it is hardly 'double your investment' and in addition it COSTS MORE AP!

If +5 vs +4 is `too`overpowering this could be fixed by going to a different rate of progression: +1/+2/+3 (as seen with the Saves progression) would mean that Tier2+Tier1 equals Teir3 as would +2/+4/+6 (probably the better numbers any way); an alternative would be non-linear: +1/+2/+4 (+2/+4/+8) for example - this would ensure that Tier3 > Tier2+Tier1.

[Junts]

As already explained, there are kinds of fights where you DON'T need AC, but you DO need strength and hitpoints. To be attractive enough to outweigh the costs to mobility and AP, Defender of Siberys needs to not only protect the user, but also make him a more dangerous combatant when he can stand in one place. If Defensive Stance won't raise the character's peak str or con, then the specialty loses a lot of attractiveness compared to the other two (or just compared to investing it all in fancy smites)

Furthermore, all these problems can apply to the fighter's Stalwart Defensive Stance too.


this is exactly why I've decided I'm not taking defender of siberys unless mod9 has multiple, non-intimitankable raidbosses who require the aggro management; it's -17- sp of pre-requisites that I do not spend right now, and no matter how you slice it (especially given that essential enhancements like bulwark o f good 4 are available to me with the cap raise), and no matter how I slice it, I'm e ither giving up an unacceptable level of dps enhancement (especially in the exalted smite line, which if defensive stance has a duration will be key for using the 400% hate), or in other defensive enhancements I can no longer take which are functional when I cannot afford to be using defensive stance.

It looks great, but I don't think mixing it with intimidate is a very good build choice: the more I've thought about this and how intimidate is used when it is used, the more I think that siberys has very little synergy with it.

two of the main things for which I use intimidate in a 'I'm a main tank controlling a major battle' way are not effective with the siberys aggro control style; specifically holding queen lailat (blocking for immunity to knockdown, which siberys can't keep while trying to generate the aggro, so they would tank her very ineffectively, to say nothing of the need to keep shield dr while doing so), and holding suulomades (which can be done dps style, but it's a careful and tricky proposition, while holding down shield block and pressing 1 is both failsave and means you're immune to curse and take almost no damage). further, another major use for intimidate (controlling xyzzy's puppies when tanking her) is completely not replicable by siberys (and would be messed up again by the inability to block).

the more I look at the aggro control benefits of the prc the more I am r eminded why my character no longer takes divine righteousness; if i want something's aggro, I press 1 with a 58 self-buffed intimidate.

that's a slight digression, but my point is this: a build using siberys will require dps output, because there are relatively few times it can use its tanking abilities in a significant way, and -in those situations it must be able to do meaningful, consistent dps to retain aggro even with the 400% bonus, for its contribution to be more effective than intimitanking it-.


I think siberys is going to be awesome in pure pallys who want to tank, in people splashing levels of non-intim classes (monk comes to mind), especially twf variants of both, as it will give them a tanking option as well.

however, dual-khopesh robe-wearing monk-splashed paladins are probably not what this class was designed to be; but it strikes me they are probably the build best suited for the prc.

there's just too many ap worth of things that, while good or useful, cannot be a priority on a character who will already be so defensively excellent, as there is a need to tank some offensive tools to be able to use the 400% aggro.

this is a problem with paladins overall, but especially this prestige class because it has the least day to day application (and I feel qualified to say this as a paladin whos main job it is to tank; i built my toon to do it, hes quite good at it and there's simply not that many times a day when it is necessary that I make use of those capabilities, and -almost everything I do is raid and run high-end content-).

unless mod9 is also creating 4-5 quests where siberys defensive stance is critical to easy completion, its simply not going to be useful enough of the time to give up so much to get it, unless your build lacks aggro management in every other way (like a defensive pure pally, etc).

[Junts]

And you are arguing that its not stacking with madstone is a detriment, yet as far as I can tell, the number of situations where this would matter is fairly limited, both because madstone rage hurts paladins in a few ways, and because there are so few fights where the small boost is more important than AC and is better than a specialty weapon (WoP, Vorp, etc...).

It also means that you do not have to run the Reaver over and over trying to get the boots (that si reserved for +3 tomes, the Head and Madstone shield until you get up to running the Hound), because you can get the same bonus in your class.

Also, for those paladins with UMD, not using the boots is a good idea. And there have been times in Shroud part 5 and sometimes 4 (but rarely) that I have stepped back a moment to wand myself or drink some pots because the clerics weren't working at full throttle, or one died, or we hit some bad lag.

Yes, it would be better if paladins could get +8 Str and +8 Con from the boots and their stance, but all I'm saying is that if they do not stack, it isn't a matter to make a fuss over because it is a fairly insignificant issue.

madstone rage is now a purely defensive item for a paladin; letting it be activated gimps you offensively, since you cannot recast either zeal or divine favor, both of which provide more offensive benefit.

the clicky could be used immediately after buffing with both to g et 2 minutes of optimal dps potential (that 1 extra str), however, leaving htem on to be activated is almost never a good idea, i have been continually let down by my boots, which i thought would be far more helpful than they have turned out to be. the zeal duration issue really makes them completely useless for what most tanks use them for; I break them out for the only time in the game when I am exclusively tanking without swinging at any point; tanking queen lailat, who if we're on elite will probably even proc them and let me have 500 hp to survive her last-0minute blade thingie if I'm too close; otherwise, they are never, ever used.

[Ralmeth]

It looks great, but I don't think mixing it with intimidate is a very good build choice: the more I've thought about this and how intimidate is used when it is used, the more I think that siberys has very little synergy with it.


Hmmm...that's interesting because I would think there would be a good synergy between the increased hate of Siberys and intimidate. Particularly I can see using intimidate just like normal, but then having the increased hate help out with mobs that you can't intimidate. I'm also looking forward to the increased AC while shield blocking, which I do quite a bit. If only I could hit Tier 3...that would just be cool to have the 20 extra DR on top of your normal shield blocking DR (I'm assuming these stack?). That would be helpful against a boss guy. So you could use intimidate or a smite to grab aggro and then shield block away.

[sephiroth1084]

Originally Posted by Junts http://images.ddoforum.turbine.com/images/buttons/blue/viewpost.gif (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1982523#post1982523)
It looks great, but I don't think mixing it with intimidate is a very good build choice: the more I've thought about this and how intimidate is used when it is used, the more I think that siberys has very little synergy with it.


I disagree, feeling that they synergize quite nicely. Think about intimi-holding the orthons in VoD: if you're not mashing intimidate so that it goes off as soon as the timer expires, the orthons you're holding turn around and get a swing or two in against everyone that has been hitting them. With this, you'll hopefully generate enough hate that it will stick them semi-permanently.

I know I used Divine Righteousness in that fashion somewhat. It was particularly useful in The Reaver, where I would hit intimidate repeatedly, but also be beating on him by myself with Di. Ri. activated, so that if we get hurled to the ceiling or people begin beating on him later, or if he wanders into a firewall, he'll still come back to me.

[Junts]

I disagree, feeling that they synergize quite nicely. Think about intimi-holding the orthons in VoD: if you're not mashing intimidate so that it goes off as soon as the timer expires, the orthons you're holding turn around and get a swing or two in against everyone that has been hitting them. With this, you'll hopefully generate enough hate that it will stick them semi-permanently.

I know I used Divine Righteousness in that fashion somewhat. It was particularly useful in The Reaver, where I would hit intimidate repeatedly, but also be beating on him by myself with Di. Ri. activated, so that if we get hurled to the ceiling or people begin beating on him later, or if he wanders into a firewall, he'll still come back to me.

I stopped even carrying righteousness, since you have to mash intimidate to ensure that the one being pummeled by dual lightning strikes doesn't turn around anyway, the other 3 are pretty irrelevant. I had so little use for divine righteousness that I dropped it to help afford divine might; I can honestly say that I was using it less than once a week (never having issues establishing legit aggro that way if i wanted to without it)

if you were gonna try and dps tank vod or something, it'd be very handy, but I've never bothered.

if your intimidate isn't reliable enough to handle a mob (because it has a ridiculous intimidate level, ie vod elite, or because you are a pure pally, etc) i think that the increased hate is awesome, but given having a 54-58 intim, I'm just totally unwowed by dr as a way of holding aggro.

the main use i can see for it is wanting to peel off just one or two monsters from a group; with intimidate, you're getting all of them or none of them in most cases.

the other advantage of holding it with legitimate hate is that it doesn't wear off, letting you do other things (since you can't re-intimidate in mid-swing animation, etc) but the times I am using intimidate, i find I'm happier blocking for the damage mitigation.

[Desteria]

I agree in the sense that offense wins out over defense in ddo. Back in old school mod 1-2ish it was more defense over offense, but that has not been the case for quite some time. I don't have much interest in rolling up a defensive syberys character or running with these characters unless they can do some offense. I think this prestige class is fine for what it does, but its alot like an archer in ddo really where it is a less adequate form of combat.

Nothign sez you cant be a TWF ro THF and be a defender ;)....

I know Mcgruf will be looking strongly at Dwarven defender if it is similar to this because stanced the STR works nice with THF and, I whould be self buffed With my Min2 G-axe out well in to the over 60 range where it starts to matter for trash and swaping to CE&sheild would mean very nice AC for tankign times, like Sulu.

[krud]

It would be better if you had a checkbox so you could toggle whether or not you'd like Rage + Defensive Stance at the same time. There are times when AC isn't helping you, and you'd be better defended with higher hitpoints from a total +6 con with Rage + Defensive Stance.

While getting an unwanted rage cast on you can be annoying, I don't think something like that should be an auto decline. If the mage is putting out the rage within a certain area you should get affected. Does a mage even get to choose who gets AoE effects, "eeny meeny miney moe"?

Perhaps having a toggle box gives you a save against incoming rage, instead of auto decline. Just to keep things interesting.

[jakeelala]

Stopping by for a moment to answer a couple of questions before zooming off again...

Defensive Stance is a stance, on its own channel. You can't be in Stalwart Defender Defensive Stance and Defender of Siberys Defensive Stance simultaneously, but it should stack with things like Combat Expertise. It lasts until you voluntarily leave it; speed penalties tend to be pretty crippling when you aren't actively defending. (Remember the original Mountain Stance?)

Defensive Stance doesn't break on spellcast like Combat Expertise does, but as an "ability that require patience or concentration", you cannot enter a rage while in Defensive Stance. (Originally we had it the other way around, with enrage effects dispelling Defensive Stance, but ran into the "my party member cast rage and knocked me out of my stance" problem.)

These are cumulative. By tier three, the Paladin gets +3 to MDB of Tower Shields, +2 to Heavy Armor, and +1 to Medium Armor.


is this an attempt to squeeze out evasion builds by not including a bonus to light armor MDB?

Seems silly, since many people already have dex builds and wont be able to take full advantage.

[elraido]

is this an attempt to squeeze out evasion builds by not including a bonus to light armor MDB?

Seems silly, since many people already have dex builds and wont be able to take full advantage.

Well, they still will have evasion......don't see what the problem is.

[Aesop]

Well, they still will have evasion......don't see what the problem is.

It limits the effectiveness of the PrE for those builds. I myself will be making a Pally light armor wearer that won't take this PrE simply for that reason alone. I'll probably end up with HotD as that has one of the nicest static effect sets.

The armor restriction is just another pigeonholing technique. Forcing a perception of a Defender as a Heavily Armored person. In fact a number of books I've read depict those in roles such as these as lighly armored to allow better mobility incase they need to take a "bullet" for their charge

Aesop

[Junts]

It limits the effectiveness of the PrE for those builds. I myself will be making a Pally light armor wearer that won't take this PrE simply for that reason alone. I'll probably end up with HotD as that has one of the nicest static effect sets.

The armor restriction is just another pigeonholing technique. Forcing a perception of a Defender as a Heavily Armored person. In fact a number of books I've read depict those in roles such as these as lighly armored to allow better mobility incase they need to take a "bullet" for their charge

Aesop

actually i think this is a case of wanting to make heavily armored tanks more viable in ddo; we both know they are not actually optimal for the task, even if you disregard silly monk splash rangers - i know a guy with an evasion-capable intimitank who tanks vod in a kds with a lorikks shield to great effect, and i know my pally tank would be 'better' at the 20 cap if i took 2 monk levels and got evasion, even if i still did fp for main tanking duties; some sort of incentive to be really, really good at it is required, because choosing to go s/b and fp is a huge sacrifice in the present game.

the tower shield enhancements here are almost pointless; actually, they have one real gain for me as far as i can see; it would free me to use non-mithril tower shields with my dt plate, if there were ever shield crafting available.

otherwise, its just that 2 ac separating these, and there's already a host of benefits to going light armor tank

[Aesop]

actually i think this is a case of wanting to make heavily armored tanks more viable in ddo; we both know they are not actually optimal for the task, even if you disregard silly monk splash rangers - i know a guy with an evasion-capable intimitank who tanks vod in a kds with a lorikks shield to great effect, and i know my pally tank would be 'better' at the 20 cap if i took 2 monk levels and got evasion, even if i still did fp for main tanking duties; some sort of incentive to be really, really good at it is required, because choosing to go s/b and fp is a huge sacrifice in the present game.

the tower shield enhancements here are almost pointless; actually, they have one real gain for me as far as i can see; it would free me to use non-mithril tower shields with my dt plate, if there were ever shield crafting available.

otherwise, its just that 2 ac separating these, and there's already a host of benefits to going light armor tank

It doesn't help allieviate that problem though. The Monk Splash can still get better AC by the ton than a full spec'd DoS Pally with a Fighter Splash for Intim and TowerShield.

These type of Characters need a better incentive and this PrE is not it. In fact a PrE should not be the heart of the fix for those issues anyway because that then limits build choices which is IMO bad for Player Experience.

I think that one thing they should do is Add Blocking DR to Armor... not a lot but just a scaled system to help out the heavy armor wearer vrs the monk splash cloth wearer. Additionally they should add a passive blocking system at least to shield users so they can absorb more punishment, which in my opinion is what a Shield "fighter" should be able to do. This doesn't mean add a permanent DR to Shield users but a %chance, think Blur but instead of totally missing this causes the character to Automatically "Block" an attack applying Blocking Bonuses to the damage done. Then again I've posted this before.

Then even without the absolute highest AC the Shield Tank can still absorb more punishment overall... hopefully it would work like that anyway.


Aesop

[Junts]

It doesn't help allieviate that problem though. The Monk Splash can still get better AC by the ton than a full spec'd DoS Pally with a Fighter Splash for Intim and TowerShield.

These type of Characters need a better incentive and this PrE is not it. In fact a PrE should not be the heart of the fix for those issues anyway because that then limits build choices which is IMO bad for Player Experience.

I think that one thing they should do is Add Blocking DR to Armor... not a lot but just a scaled system to help out the heavy armor wearer vrs the monk splash cloth wearer. Additionally they should add a passive blocking system at least to shield users so they can absorb more punishment, which in my opinion is what a Shield "fighter" should be able to do. This doesn't mean add a permanent DR to Shield users but a %chance, think Blur but instead of totally missing this causes the character to Automatically "Block" an attack applying Blocking Bonuses to the damage done. Then again I've posted this before.

Then even without the absolute highest AC the Shield Tank can still absorb more punishment overall... hopefully it would work like that anyway.


Aesop

I've seen your suggestions on that kind of thing and like some of them; however, this is not really that bad. you can be a viable tank without it, however, there are a lot of benefits to it. I am not a big fan of divine righteousness and I use it infrequently on my pally intimitank, but if it were a constant effect I would be pretty fond of it (the 1 minute per use limitation makes it hard to use well). I maintank vod regularly, and just to apply the benefits of this to what I do would improve those runs in several ways; there are benefits to both dps aggro tanking him and intimidate tanking him, and few characters can capitalize on both (monk splash intmitanks do not have blocking dr, which is the main reason to intimidate: you mitigate damage, and he does hit you, especially on hard and elite, whereas straight intimidate tanking him has the problem of either failing (if you lack hit him on a 1 potential on the difficulty you're on, which is frequent for elite), or some lag making him warp off after the person on top the hate list the second intimidate wears before the new one kicks in.

this enhancement line would, say, not only increase my ac, but let me tank him by dpsing him a bit when the party is occupied with devils/orthons, which are usually the times when his teleport away act is most problematic (hes not in range of the next intimidate, and you are chained, can't get to him, etc), while still retaining the benefits of intimitanking him (going to block and intim when everyone is dpsing him so he does essentially no damage during that time). in fact, it synergizes to the point you could dps yourself atop the list and block while people are on other mobs much more easily, and possibly even build yourself to the top of the list consistently.

a 2 ac increase for any kind of tank on a passive, stackable basis is very powerful. this prc can move my pally's standing, in front of beholder ac up to 66 in mod9 (2 runs from 20 titans, so hopefully this is true anyway :)). that is competetive with monk splash ac builds, and the primary part of my lower absolute-raid-buff cap is that I always have my own paladinness (raidbuffing is worth 5+4+2+1 for a total of 12 more ac for me, whereas it's worth 17 for a monksplash type, 16 if they have a pally level, 15 if they have 3).

I was not a huge fan of this prc because of the temporary nature of most of the boosts, and I still may not take it - I've been playing with enhancement respecs that would put me much closer to qualifying for it (picked up the resist aura line and the faith2 line and div righteousness again to try and find a use for it), but it's got clear and significant benefits for pally tanking and it no more pigeonholes tank builds than tempest pigeonholes twf builds - its just another path to the same result, and that path could be a dex build, monk/rogue splashed umding, lorikk blocking paladin .. which couuld still get tier 2 in this prc! (imagine a 17/2/1 pally monk rogue, 28-30 dex, zealing, twfing, swaps to the best available light armor + lorikks to tank and still has **** fine ac, heck, it could swap to a mfp to tank if evasion wasn't an issue in a given fight, and use daggertooth belt and still max the hell out of. your average dex build monk splash can't tank that way very well, and even the present dr mitigation of shield blocking is excellent. i wish the shield mastery feats were better (improving blocking dr by a lot more than they do, since their use is so narrow), and lorikk's having equal blocking dr to levik's is an atrocity, but even so there are not that many of these monk splashes that can or will effectively swap to it to tank. damage mitigation is a significant benefit, and while it would be awesome if it worked better, the 35 dr i have while shield blocking with stoneskin is immensely helpful.

there are some pretty stringent requirements to making a huge ac dex-raiments-monksplash build, its not like it comes without sacrifices and its very eq dependant; you're making 3-4 dual shard shroud items, you're farming a ton of raid loot, etc. a heavy armor paladin tank is an equal amount of work (a bit more on raidloot and one less dual shard item if its not a twf option), and effective in its own way - and moreso, with this prc.

that isn't necessarily bad. its not like every dex build has great ac, or every ranger has great ac, nor will ever s/b plate wearer have great ac (but they have more than the bad ac dex builds!). this helps close the gap, and my guess i the rest if it will be closed when monk splash gets nerfed, as we know its gonna get nerfed.

[elraido]

You guys are mentioning monk splashes as being better, but we don't even know what the capstone is yet for paladins or what the holy avenger is going to be. For the time being, yes I can see a monk splash build having a better AC than a pure build who goes this route, but we will only see if that few AC later on will make up for it.

[Dexxaan]

It's not just the AC Elraido.

You get 2 Free Feats, Evasion, Lots more Skill Points at creation, and Evasion.

Did I mention Evasion?


I sincerely doubt any capstone (they are all sugar coats so far) will give you the equivalent of the quick list I just pointed out, much less exceed it. :rolleyes:

Again - Multiclass when well designed and knowing what you're doing will outdo almost ANY Purebread. (Sorcerers, Clerics excluded IMO)

[elraido]

It's not just the AC Elraido.

You get 2 Free Feats, Evasion, Lots more Skill Points at creation, and Evasion.

Did I mention Evasion?


I sincerely doubt any capstone (they are all sugar coats so far) will give you the equivalent of the quick list I just pointed out, much less exceed it. :rolleyes:

Again - Multiclass when well designed and knowing what you're doing will outdo almost ANY Purebread. (Sorcerers, Clerics excluded IMO)

When it hits lvl 20, and then I can stop thinking about what other abilities they will come out, I will make judgement :) until then, I keep false hope. :)

[Riekan]

nm.

[Angelus_dead]

It's not just the AC Elraido.
You get 2 Free Feats, Evasion, Lots more Skill Points at creation, and Evasion.
Did I mention Evasion?
I sincerely doubt any capstone (they are all sugar coats so far) will give you the equivalent of the quick list I just pointed out, much less exceed it. :rolleyes:
That's a very good point, and the reason it's so true is that Evasion is a powerful front-loaded ability. It's like Monk AC and Divine Grace: an excellent ability you get at level 1-2 is which essential to making a character feel like a genuine member of the nominal class, but which keeps getting valuable at higher total level.

Those three front-loaded class features are so good that there's no reasonable way the devs could buff levels 19-20 of every other class to be balanced against them. The only way to fix it is to nerf those few abilities so it takes more class levels for them to fully come into play. For examples:

Evasion: You take no damage only if you exceed the reflex save by 9. The amount you must exceed decreases by 1 per additional class level (in a class that granted evasion)
Monk AC: The AC bonus cannot be greater than your monk level.
Divine Grace: The save bonus cannot be greater than your paladin level.

In addition to those, classes which grant the Intimidate or UMD skills are also front-loaded, although that could potentially be balanced by buffing other characters (such as allowing Diplomacy to pull aggro, or allowing a feat to unlock max Intimidate ranks, or whatever)

Notice that rebalancing those front-loaded features would be basically impossible unless the devs added a way to respec class levels and skill points. Otherwise they simply couldn't crunch existing characters so much.

[Turial]

...
Those three front-loaded class features are so good that there's no reasonable way the devs could buff levels 19-20 of every other class to be balanced against them. The only way to fix it is to nerf those few abilities so it takes more class levels for them to fully come into play. For examples:

Evasion: You take no damage only if you exceed the reflex save by 9. The amount you must exceed decreases by 1 per additional class level (in a class that granted evasion)
Monk AC: The AC bonus cannot be greater than your monk level.
Divine Grace: The save bonus cannot be greater than your paladin level.
....

So for rangers who get evasion later it wouldnt become useful for an additional 9 levels? or would would previous levels of ranger count for the decrease per level adjustment to evasion?

[Borror0]

So for rangers who get evasion later it wouldnt become useful for an additional 9 levels? or would would previous levels of ranger count for the decrease per level adjustment to evasion?
I'd vote for the latter, the problem with Evasion is that it's front-loaded. By level 9, I don,t really call it front loaded.

[Angelus_dead]

So for rangers who get evasion later it wouldnt become useful ever? or would classes that gain evasion later in their lives be exempted from this change to evasion?
In that sample change (which is only one of many ways Evasion could be nerfed), Rangers would gain evasion at level 9 as they do now, and they'd have to beat the save by 9 in order for it to work. That amount would decrease by 1 per additional ranger level, until at level 18 they'd trigger Evasion on any successful save.

Remember that was just a sample of how Evasion might be made less front-loaded, and is not the only way. They instead could do something like this:
Evasion: When hit by an attack which allows a reflex save for half damage, you instead take 45% damage on a successful save. That amount decreases by 5% per additional level, to a minimum of 0% after 9 levels.

But I repeat, these are only samples of how front-loaded class features could be nerfed. I'm not trying to say these particular changes are the best possible ones (in fact, I am intentionally leaving out some complexity to save space)

[Angelus_dead]

I'd vote for the latter, the problem with Evasion is that it's front-loaded. By level 9, I don,t really call it front loaded.
It's less important, but you could make a case that Evasion is too drastic a change at ran9 as well. Just think about the tremendous difference in survivability between a ran8/fig2 and ran9/fig1. It's not really a good thing that taking just 1 more level makes such a big big difference in how you can function in many situations.

[Borror0]

It's not really a good thing that taking just 1 more level makes such a big big difference in how you can function in many situations.
The fact is that there are a lot of abilities guilty of that, PrE being one of them.

I actually see ranger 9 possibly creating options, rather than just being too good of an ability.

[Gum]

Hey what about one of the top tiers of this giving a broader AOE range for intimidate since our speed is gonna be so slow? This would draw agro you usually couldn't reach without this PrE or without the top tier.

[Borror0]

Hey what about one of the top tiers of this giving a broader AOE range for intimidate since our speed is gonna be so slow?
Paladin don't have Intimidate; they have Diplomacy.

[Inspire]

Hey what about one of the top tiers of this giving a broader AOE range for intimidate since our speed is gonna be so slow? This would draw agro you usually couldn't reach without this PrE or without the top tier.

Agreed with Borror, why should Paladins get a benifit to thier Intimidate?... Its not a class skill people, as much as it would be loved and IMO overpowered.

[Gum]

Paladin don't have Intimidate; they have Diplomacy.

Right. So to make splashing at least one lvl of ftr attractive, and giving the player more options, how about increasing the range of the intimidate skill through this PrE? I mean, if this PrE doesn't make splashing at least one lvl of ftr attractive, nothing does.

EDIT: I think I see the point now, it's a paladin PrE, and intimidate isn't a Paladin skill. Just wishful thinking on my part lol.

[Borror0]

I think I see the point now, it's a paladin PrE, and intimidate isn't a Paladin skill. Just wishful thinking on my part lol.
Aye. As I said previously, they have to split Diplomacy into two: current and a taunt. Intimidate checks would shaken the targets to balance things out.

But really, anything to give paladin a taunt...

[Junts]

Aye. As I said previously, they have to split Diplomacy into two: current and a taunt. Intimidate checks would shaken the targets to balance things out.

But really, anything to give paladin a taunt...


I still think this is probably the best idea you've ever had, Borr, simply because the people who would most be screwed by 'intimidate is a pally skill now' would be people like me who splashed fighter, and with that change I would in no way be bothered by it (the problem is that it would require a skillpoint respec still; as some people might want to just use diplo's taunt, or lose their splashes, but a lot less of them, I'd bet, intimidate shaken would be almost overpowered for some of the things I use intimidate for .. like intimidating and tumbling back into the dancing ball/web/symbol of stunning because people never fight in cc :))

[Borror0]

the problem is that it would require a skillpoint respec still
I wouldn't require a skill respec much more than any previous change made to Intimidate and Diplomacy in the past. (Remember: Intimidate used to suck.)

However, yes, changes like that are strong arguments in favor of skill respec.

[Junts]

its true intimidate wasn't that good (though i admit i could see about 33% of what i use it for working with the longer timer), it was a question of 'questionable' vs 'good' functionality, not a new function.

[Borror0]

though i admit i could see about 33% of what i use it for working with the longer timer
I'm not talking about the timer. When the timer was 10s, thing when smoothly.

I'm talking about when the timer was 10s and there was a long animation you had to go through before it finally triggered.
(Like Bluff still is, basically.)

[query]

Could we clear up Tank vs TURTLE?

Besides POSSIBLY the hit to engage, this seems like a TURTLE not TANK build for the PrE. Then again, everybody seems to throw around tank when they mean hit X and just take the swings while others do their things unmolested.

Since there is an argument of the AC vs DPS, I think this is correct, but please correct clarify detail, etc. I'm trying to figure this out as much as anybody on what the method of Pallie is or if it HAS to be more than one for any use for this (only thing I know is my pallie is staying pure ATM.)

Next, should this be reevaluated with the Paladin Capstone? Normally it's a no, but sometimes (see monk) it tips it JUST enough to have synergy with a specific loadout.....possibly this line as an example.

The intimidate not a class skill was done, and leaving that out for those who DO go pure pallie for......


WHAT ABOUT THEIR HOLY SWORD?

I cannot believe NOBODY brought this up in regards to BOTH attack (hate AND DPS, activated abilities) AND defense (aura fields, activated abilities....may encompass the entire party in the same regards as the Circle and auras do.)


Yes I know the above has not been discussed, and may not even be ready in any form for mod 9, but this "absolute forgone conclusion" I'm seeing postured is as believable as the rangers are useless then POOF the PrE's, the Shroud boss tanked or ranged, etc.


So, I use my expertise to proclaim I don't know and would like any info on that Tank/Turtle issue and capstone broken down. Pallies are a newer class I play compared to other class builds and combos.

(Also I am doing one in Permadeath that has its own set of AC/turtle concerns which I won't bring up here, but will consider the results based on the numbers confirmed I get here for the PD options.....please no comments on PD; this is not the place; just focus on a standard paladin option thanks.)

I appreciate those who have a diversity for using the class instead of, "X is the only way; going above Y levels is useless." However, if you have SOLID proof that NOTHING changing will change this, go ahead by all means on that explanation.


Thanks E and everybody here contributing...this might be my first AC wall build since my last PnP Dwarven Defender! To invert an Arnie quote, "If it doesn't bleed, we can't kill it [or Vorpal it or FOD it....]"

[Angelus_dead]

I wouldn't require a skill respec much more than any previous change made to Intimidate and Diplomacy in the past. (Remember: Intimidate used to suck)
That is very wrong.

Changing Diplomacy to have an effect anything similar to Intimidate would obligate allowing Paladins (and monks, and clerics, and bards) to respec points from Intimidate into Diplomacy. (It would also strengthen the need for class respec)

The two previous occasions where Intimidate was buffed are not obviously not comparable to the proposal of allowing Diplomacy to taunt, because after each of those changes, Intimidate remained the best (and only) skill to pull aggro. If someone had ranks in Intimidate before, there'd be no reason for him to want fewer ranks afterwards- whatever reasons had motivated him to train it could only get stronger.

The problem is especially clear if you picture an existing Pal16 character who has 9 ranks of Intimidate- how would he react to seeing future pure Paladins getting 19 ranks of aggro-pulling Diplomacy for the same cost in skillpoints?

[Borror0]

That is very wrong.
Not saying that there shouldn't be a skill respec if that happened.

But, since Intimidate would stay the best taunt in the game, Turbine use the same logic as they used in the past "Suck it up. It's a matter of trade off. You gave up something for those points. Don't complain that you're gimped because you are not." You already know my view of the argument, but if Turbine does not value skill respec at the moment, then...

[Angelus_dead]

But, since Intimidate would stay the best taunt in the game
It would not. Buffing Diplomacy is a proxy-nerf for Intimidate, and adding shaken to Intimidate wouldn't make up for it, especially since bosses can't get shaken.

The lack of a size penalty on Diplomacy further tilts things...

[Borror0]

[...] especially since bosses can't get shaken.
This includes Barbarian Intimidation?

[Angelus_dead]

This includes Barbarian Intimidation?
Yeah. It's really annoying to get the blue IMMUNITY particles around bosses (or undeads). But if you have Barb Intimidate, you're stuck with it.

[Borror0]

Yeah. It's really annoying to get the blue IMMUNITY particles around bosses (or undeads). But if you have Barb Intimidate, you're stuck with it.
That should change. No logical reasons not to, unless it represents too much work.

[Angelus_dead]

That should change. No logical reasons not to, unless it represents too much work.
As far as logic goes, you could say that all bosses use neg-neg-neg items for immunity to fear, poison, disease, blindness, and instant death.

There's two ways to go on boss immunities: Either try to come up with an in-character explanation, which would mean whatever protects him from Fear would also prevent Shaken, or use a less-simulationist rule that they have resistance only to effects that would take them out of a fight.

Personally I'd prefer the latter, like I suggested immediately after DDO's release: give bosses a feat which allows them to ignore an effect that would prevent them from taking actions, at the cost of a certain amount of hitpoint damage. (The damage might be something like 10 hp per spell-level equivalent of the effect, with a 50% penalty if the effect doesn't grant auto-crits, or a 50% bonus if it causes immediate death). That way, spells like Hold and Charm would contribute to DPS against bosses, instead of being totally harmless.

Anyway, back to a proposed taunt effect from Diplomacy: even if Intimidate was buffed to include free shaken (which is a bad idea, because it's so powerful), and if that shaken worked on bosses, it still wouldn't mean Intimidate is necessarily the best taunt, or that the need for a skill respec isn't higher than for every previous Intimidate change. Some classes just can't get Intimidate as high as they can get Diplomacy, so even if Intimidate can potentially cause stronger effects, it won't be the better choice for characters without a level of fighter, barbarian, or rogue.

[Grimlock]

Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Prereqs: Level 18 Paladin, Defender of Siberys II, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, Paladin Resistance of Good III, and any Paladin Faith II enhancement.
Benefit: Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement increases the strength of all of your defensive auras, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields and medium or heavy armor by 1, and grants the ability to enter a superior defensive stance or to defy your enemies in a glorious stand against evil.

Defender of Siberys III: Superior Defensive Stance
You may expend a Paladin armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +4 Sacred bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +3 Sacred bonus on all saves, a +4 Dodge bonus to Armor Class, and produce 200% more hate with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move at half speed.

Defender of Siberys III: Glorious Stand
You may expend a turn attempt to make a glorious stand against your enemies. For a short duration of time, you gain DR 20/epic, take reduced damage from elemental and negative energy, receive double healing from positive energy, and are immune to secondary effects of attacks such as 'wounding' or 'vorpal'. Each time you take damage, you gain the effects of a Cure Light Wounds spell.


Turbine shouldn't have wimped out and made this only available for Level 20 Paladins. Screw the people who took 2 levels of something else.

[elraido]

Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Prereqs: Level 18 Paladin, Defender of Siberys II, Paladin Bulwark of Good III, Paladin Resistance of Good III, and any Paladin Faith II enhancement.
Benefit: Protecting the weak from the depredations of the strong, you become a paragon of defense. This prestige enhancement increases the strength of all of your defensive auras, increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields and medium or heavy armor by 1, and grants the ability to enter a superior defensive stance or to defy your enemies in a glorious stand against evil.

Defender of Siberys III: Superior Defensive Stance
You may expend a Paladin armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +4 Sacred bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +3 Sacred bonus on all saves, a +4 Dodge bonus to Armor Class, and produce 200% more hate with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move at half speed.

Defender of Siberys III: Glorious Stand
You may expend a turn attempt to make a glorious stand against your enemies. For a short duration of time, you gain DR 20/epic, take reduced damage from elemental and negative energy, receive double healing from positive energy, and are immune to secondary effects of attacks such as 'wounding' or 'vorpal'. Each time you take damage, you gain the effects of a Cure Light Wounds spell.


Turbine shouldn't have wimped out and made this only available for Level 20 Paladins. Screw the people who took 2 levels of something else.

Those were the chances you took when you multiclassed. I managed to keep my main a pure paladin for 3 years now, threw the good times and the bad with what they have done for them. You had to figure they were going to do something good for Paladins once they got to lvl 20, instead of rewarding those who decided to splash levels. Now you have to figure if the splash of rouge or monk is worth it.

[Dexxaan]

......Turbine shouldn't have wimped out and made this only available for Level 20 Paladins. Screw the people who took 2 levels of something else.



Those were the chances you took when you multiclassed. I managed to keep my main a pure paladin for 3 years now, threw the good times and the bad with what they have done for them. You had to figure they were going to do something good for Paladins once they got to lvl 20, instead of rewarding those who decided to splash levels. Now you have to figure if the splash of rouge or monk is worth it.

RE: Paladin Capstone

No question in my mind that although the Paladin Capstone is probably among the best (most Capstones have proven quite lame IMO) it´s still miles away from providing the benefits of say 2 Rogue, 2 Monk or 2 Fighter Splashes. (And combinations of them - Rogue 3 Fighter 2 Paladin 15 is a MONSTER build for example and only 15 Paladin Levels required.)

Remaining pure is not a performance decision, I´d venture to say it´s a Romantic one and thats fine. There will be a select few Pure Paladins that are up to par for High end content on anything other than normal.....unless they gimp the new content and we start fighting CR14 Trolls......


RE: Defender of Siberys

Definitely the best (known) Paladin PrE and once again Tier III is quite nice and most people will try to get it, but the sweet spot is easily debatable (IMO) at Tier II. So truly you can afford to build your Paladin with higher Stats, Skills, More Feats and Versatility by Multi-Classing, as long as you know what you are doing of course.

The Minos Legens fix took away a lot from all Paladin builds, but moreso from the already "Feat Starved" Pure Paladin and now they´ll be 1 Feat lower than before...... OUCH.

Just because new bells and whistles are coming our way does it mean you shouldn´t value the benefits of Multi-Classing, just open your eyes and look at them with a bit more of a critical eye and look at the whole picture....you´d be surprised to remeber WHY you multi-classed....or should.