Implementing Crit Multi off FB

[Mayen]

So I am making a new post about this as I think this line from Eladrin is important enough to warrant a completely new thread.

"We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much."

I will be polite and say this would be a mistake on an enormous scale. Proclaiming Frenzy Bezerkor as "Here's the brutal killer of... well... just about everything (including itself), the damage dealing class that just doesn't know when to stop, the Frenzied Berserker!" then limiting them to basically picks and axes is counterproductive. You are lowering Barbarian DPS from its current state and then will be increasing other classes that are on par with a barbarian already.

DDO is a game based off the numbers not the "roleplay" aspect of the system. Sure there are some people that build roleplaying characters but the system itself is based off the idea of min/maxing. You cannot enter a "roleplay" adaptation to the game and expect it to survive in this "min/maxxed" world. I give you the biggest example of that. Greataxe vs Greatsword swing speed. Both weapons should be viable choices but since it was designed with swords being slightly slower so as not to look odd, they are now vendor fodder in comparison to the greataxe. That was a "roleplay" choice that was entered into this "min/maxxed" world.

I completely understand your choice to change the critical rage from threat to frenzy berz multiplier. That is not the arguement, but don't implement a house rule that goes against the very basis of the consistancy of the game. There is no precidence for any rule of this type in DDO, please dont make the precidence here and now.

[Silverjade]

How is it keeping people from using more than just rpaier/pick/great axe ect?.
I think that it would be fun to duel wield scimitars with it at 15-20x4.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

How is it keeping people from using more than just rpaier/pick/great axe ect?.
I think that it would be fun to duel wield scimitars with it at 15-20x4.

Umm.. Unless I'm missreading it, they've stated that the crit ranges won't matter. You wouldn't get the extra multiplier from the frenzied beserker unless you roll a 19 or 20.

So your scimitars would get 15-18x2, 19-20x4

[Borror0]

Proclaiming Frenzy Bezerkor as "Here's the brutal killer of... well... just about everything (including itself), the damage dealing class that just doesn't know when to stop, the Frenzied Berserker!" then limiting them to basically picks and axes is counterproductive.
The following was posted by Angelus_dead in this post (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1960791#post1960791). Figured there was no need for me to type it a second time.


If FB3 gets +2 crit mult, then the Critical Power chart is
Club: 19-20/x4 -> 25/20 = 1.25
Sword: 17-20/x4 -> 30/20 = 1.50
Axe: 19-20/x5 -> 27/20 = 1.35
Rapier: 15-20/x4 -> 37/20 = 1.85
Pick: 19-20/x6 -> 29/20 = 1.45
Khopesh: 17-20/x5 -> 35/20 = 1.75
SOS: 15-20/x5 -> 43/20 = 2.15
Deathnip: 17-20/x6 -> 39/20 = 1.95

Compare that against the +1 crit mult chart
Club: 19-20/x3 -> 23/20 = 1.15
Sword: 17-20/x3 -> 27/20 = 1.35
Axe: 19-20/x4 -> 25/20 = 1.25
Rapier: 15-20/x3 -> 31/20 = 1.55
Pick: 19-20/x5 -> 27/20 = 1.35
Khopesh: 17-20/x4 -> 31/20 = 1.55
SOS: 15-20/x4 -> 37/20 = 1.85
Deathnip: 17-20/x5 -> 35/20 = 1.75

And the CR2 chart (currently active in DDO)
Club: 17-20/x2 -> 23/20 = 1.15
Sword: 15-20/x2 -> 25/20 = 1.25
Axe: 16-20/x3 -> 27/20 = 1.45
Rapier: 13-20/x2 -> 27/20 = 1.35
Pick: 17-20/x4 -> 31/20 = 1.55
Khopesh: 15-20/x3 -> 31/20 = 1.55
SOS: 13-20/x3 -> 35/20 = 1.75
Deathnip: 15-20/x4 -> 37/20 = 1.85

Summary:
Baseline weapons: khopesh > (pick=rapier) > (axe=sword)
CR2 barb (now): (khopesh = pick) > axe > rapier > sword
FB2 (new): (khopesh = rapier) > (pick=sword) > axe
FB3 (new): rapier > khopesh > sword > pick > axe

Now, the suggested modification to limit the power on 19-20 would lead to:

Club: 19-20/x2 -> 25/20 = 1.25
Sword: 17-20/x2 -> 27/20 = 1.35
Axe: 19-20/x3 -> 27/20 = 1.35
Rapier: 15-20/x2 -> 29/20 = 1.45
Pick: 19-20/x4 -> 29/20 = 1.45
Khopesh: 17-20/x3 -> 31/20 = 1.55
SOS: 15-20/x3 -> 35/20 = 1.75
Deathnip: 17-20/x4 -> 35/20 = 1.75


You are lowering Barbarian DPS from its current state and then will be increasing other classes that are on par with a barbarian already.
Only for axes and picks.

The nicest feature of that suggestion is that every weapon benefit from it equally, unlike Critical Rage II or the current Frenzied Berserker. As I said, only picks and axes would loose DPS from it. However, it would make every weapon as attractive as they are per design. Axes and swords have the same base critical power and will now have the same modified critical power. Same for every other weapon.

It would be a very nice move from Turbine to do that. Basically getting rid of everything unhealthy in Critical Rage/Frenzied Berserker except maybe too much damage.

But that is a totally different topic.

Club:

Baseline:1.05
Currently: 1.15
Suggested: 1.25

Sword:

Baseline: 1.15
Currently: 1.25
Suggested: 1.35

Axe:

Baseline: 1.15
Currently: 1.45
Suggested: 1.35

Rapier:

Baseline: 1.25
Currently: 1.35
Suggested:1.45

Pick:

Baseline: 1.25
Currently: 1.55
Suggested: 1.45

Khopesh:

Baseline: 1.35
Currently: 1.55
Suggested: 1.55

SOS:

Baseline: 1.55
Currently: 1.75
Suggested: 1.75

Deathnip:

Baseline: 1.55
Currently: 1.85
Suggested: 1.75

[Mayen]

Aye Borror you are correct they are only decreasing the DPS for axes and picks. Axes, picks and Khopeshs (which obviously require a feat) were OUR means of delivering our DPS.

No one complained about barbs doing to much DPS, they complained about barbs delivering stat damage on 13+ crit weapons. Changing it from +2 threat to +2 mult puts them on an even scale with all other people that want to stat damage except fighters who will get improved threat with kensai if they so wish. That in itself is fine and dandy.

Putting a hardcap of 19-20 on when the +2 multiplier lowers overall barbarian DPS while removing the stat damage advantage. Yet other classes, like I said, will increase in DPS. This is not in the spirit of the frenzied berserker.

[Angelus_dead]

Putting a hardcap of 19-20 on when the +2 multiplier lowers overall barbarian DPS while removing the stat damage advantage.
The developer comment about a bonus that only applies on 19-20 never said that it would still be only a +2 multiplier.

For all we know it's a +10 crit mult on 19-20.

[Mayen]

"We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much."

Seeing as the critical threat multipliers that are listed in the post he refers to are the +1 at FB2 and +1 at FB3, I think its safe to assume that means those 2 multipliers.

[Borror0]

I think its safe to assume that means those 2 multipliers.
It's not.

[sephiroth1084]

I'd rather see rapiers and picks moving DOWN the value table, than up. The trend, as you showed it, Borr, would lend MORE weight to being a toothpick-packing barbarian than previously.

While I'm not sure how to get there, I think the ideal endgame situation regarding weapons and criticals of any kind would be for axes and swords to deal the most DPS, while rapiers (and other big-threat weapons) are the best at landing non-damaging on-crit effects (Puncturing, Enfeebling, Slowburst, etc...).

[Angelus_dead]

While I'm not sure how to get there, I think the ideal endgame situation regarding weapons and criticals of any kind would be for axes and swords to deal the most DPS
That is reversed from how D&D works.

In D&D you have two tiers of martial weapons: rapier/pick are tier 1, and sword/axe are tier 2. Tier 1 has better Critical Power and tier 2 has better base damage, and Critical Power is by far the more important property. The only advantage of tier 2 is that they're minorly more damaging for lower-level warriors: people without a lot of strength or who don't Power Attack for much.

However, that difference is increased in DDO, because this game is a higher-powered environment where it's easier to go far beyond the break-even point between tier 1 and tier 2.

If the infieriority of sword/axe compared to rapier/pick is judged to be a problem, then I think the best way to cope with it is to explicitly make them non-inferior. New enhancements:
Fighter/Elf Sword Superiority: 2 AP, req level 10. You gain +1 critical threat range with swords (which can double with Improved Crit or Keen)
Barbarian/Dwarf Axe Superiority: 2 AP, req level 10. You gain +1 critical multiplier with axes.
Rogue/Halfling Dagger Superiority: 2 AP, req level 10. You gain +1 critical threat range with swords (which can double with Improved Crit or Keen)
Warforged Hammer Superiority: 2 AP, req level 10. You gain +1 critical multiplier with hammers.

[lord_of_rage]

since when are pick using barbs a bad thing? I still think 6x on a 19-20 will be pretty sick. Pick users dont do a ton of stat dmg. The crit range is pretty low. I use picks for the dps. I will say my w/p may get put in the bank but that was planned as soon as I completed my second min2 pick.