Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker Preview

[Eladrin]

Here's the brutal killer of... well... just about everything (including itself), the damage dealing class that just doesn't know when (http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt283/itsapuzzle/01101100.jpg?t=1243551632) to stop, the Frenzied Berserker!

A few changes are being made that are important to know about before looking at the Frenzied Berserker:

The Vicious weapon enchantment now deals 2d6 damage to opponents struck by the weapon and 1d3 damage back to the wielder instead of 1d6.

Barbarian Critical Rage I and II can no longer be trained. Characters that currently possess these enhancements will retain them until they reset their enhancements, and these enhancements count as their "Barbarian specialty".

Barbarian Intimidating Rage has had its prerequisites changed to "either Barbarian Intimidate 4 or Barbarian Frenzied Berserker 2".

Now, on to the Prestige Enhancement iself:

Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I
Prereqs: Level 6 Barbarian, Power Attack, Cleave, Barbarian Damage Boost II, Barbarian Power Attack I, Barbarian Power Rage I.
Cost: 4 AP
Benefit: You gain the effects of the diehard feat while raging, and your glancing blows have a chance of applying magical weapon effects. You also gain the ability to expend 10 hit points to enter a frenzy, which increases your strength by 2 and adds the 'Vicious' property to your melee weapons.

An interesting Berserker that came up in playtest was a Ranger/Barbarian archer that used the Frenzy abilities with a bow, gaining the benefits of the increased strength, ignoring the Vicious aspect that only affects melee weapons.

Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II
Prereqs: Level 12 Barbarian, Barbarian Frenzied Berserker 1, Barbarian Damage Boost III, Barbarian Power Attack II, Barbarian Power Rage II.
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by 1 when you roll a natural 19 or 20. Your two handed weapon glancing blows have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects. You also gain the ability to expend 10 hp to Supreme Cleave.

Supreme Cleave:
Benefit: Expend 10 hit points to attack all nearby enemies.

Supreme Cleave has no cooldown other than a standard 1 second global cooldown for attack actions. As long as you've got the hit points, you can continue to bring the pain.

Barbarian Frenzied Berserker III
Prereqs: Level 18 Barbarian, Barbarian Frenzied Berserker 2, Barbarian Damage Boost IV, Barbarian Power Attack III, Barbarian Power Rage III.
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by an additional 1 when you roll a natural 19 or 20, bringing the total bonus to 2. Your two handed weapon glancing blows have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects. You also gain the ability to expend 20 hit points to enter a death frenzy (which can stack with your basic rage and frenzy), increasing your strength by 4 and adding the 'Greater Vicious' property to your melee weapons. (+4d6 damage / +1d3 damage to self)

The Frenzied Berserker focuses on dealing tremendous amounts of damage to its enemies, punctuated with absolutely devastating criticals. Whether dual wielding heavy picks with a x6 critical multiplier, or using a two handed weapon that's producing magical weapon effects on glancing blows backed by their incredible strength, they dish out the damage (to their enemies, and if they choose, to themselves).

The Berserker can stack both of their Frenzy abilities to increase their strength by 6 and add an additional 6d6 damage to each of their swings at the cost of 2d3 damage reflected back upon them, or become a whirlwind of destruction using Supreme Cleave at will, as long as a friendly healer is willing to keep them going.

Edit: Minor clarification to FB3 - the critical multiplier increases stack.
Edit 2: Added the "when you roll a natural 19 or 20" section, which dramatically affects those DPS charts later on in this thread.

[Tolero]

/cure critical consonants

Live! Live! You want to live!!

[Eladrin]

There will be changes made to this enhancement line before it goes live, but this is the preview.

[EazyWeazy]

Sweet :)

[DaveyCrockett]

Can we discuss the propesed changes? (ie, will you hint at what is changing?)

[CSFurious]

but it sounds pretty cool

[Aeneas]

Back off barb junky!

Now give us the vowels for the deepwood sniper changes/additions and other important stuff, like how to hang out with your friends and not make your girlfriend mad, or why my washing machine always makes a fold right down the center of my button up shirts button line that makes it nearly impossible to button them and won't iron out no matter how hard i try.

[Giantsbane]

I wants one! :D

[HeavenlyCloud]

Can we discuss the propesed changes? (ie, will you hint at what is changing?)

/signed

[transtemporal]

Ouch, thats gonna leave a mark. :-)

[Turial]

.....
Benefit: You gain the effects of the diehard feat while raging, and your glancing blows have a chance of applying magical weapon effects. You also gain the ability to expend 10 hit points to enter a frenzy, which increases your strength by 2 and adds the 'Vicious' property to your melee weapons.

An interesting Berserker that came up in playtest was a Ranger/Barbarian archer that used the Frenzy abilities with a bow, gaining the benefits of the increased strength, ignoring the Vicious aspect that only affects melee weapons.
.....

So can one still apply vicious to bows using FBor are you just teasing us by saying it came up and was eliminated?

[Impaqt]

So Since ya posted this before 5:00 doe sthat mean we decoded enough to get a Bonus preview this week?

WOuld LOVE to see some bard stuff muself since I'm currently leveling my new Warchanter...

[Dungnmaster001]

So can one still apply vicious to bows using FBor are you just teasing us by saying it came up and was eliminated?

The way I read it is a bow using barb/ranger got the benefit of the increased strength but not the vicious part. Vicious wasn't being applied to bows at all (which is how it's supposed to work)

[DaveyCrockett]

So Since ya posted this before 5:00 doe sthat mean we decoded enough to get a Bonus preview this week?

WOuld LOVE to see some bard stuff muself since I'm currently leveling my new Warchanter...


I have to admit that I completely underestimated everyone's desire and ability to solve this puzzle, and I'm very impressed. I honestly expected people to not even try. Kudos to all of you that worked on this, I think you've gotten enough of it to be given an extra preview this week.

Answered

[Nick_RC]

Can we discuss the propesed changes? (ie, will you hint at what is changing?)

/signed

[Wizzly_Bear]

Can we discuss the propesed changes? (ie, will you hint at what is changing?)
yes, please

[Strakeln]

An interesting Berserker that came up in playtest was a Ranger/Barbarian archer that used the Frenzy abilities with a bow, gaining the benefits of the increased strength, ignoring the Vicious aspect that only affects melee weapons.lol

I told you guys the devs don't play this game.

That has to be the absolute worst way possible to gain +1 damage. Ever. And I bet it comes in really handy... the mob will be at 74% health instead of 75% when it reaches you!

[Turial]

The way I read it is a bow using barb/ranger got the benefit of the increased strength but not the vicious part. Vicious wasn't being applied to bows at all (which is how it's supposed to work)

I would hope a bow using barb ranger would be able to benafit from the str, thats what bow str allows you to do. Infact if a barb with bow str wasnt able to apply the +2 (+6 with full spec) str from frenzy it would be a odd bug.

Currently an additional +2 (+6) str it isn't all that interesting because +1 (+3) damage is nothing special really, why would you even mention that because we all expect that to happen, but being apply vicious to bows able to add 2d6 damage and avoiding 1d3 damage back to you would be very interesting and worth pointing out.

The Melee only tag though is confusing because it would indicate the first example, which everyone expected to happen, vs the 2nd which would be worth pointing out.

[Mayen]

Just one quick question so we can get a confirm or deny. Barb frenzy 2 and 3 crit multipliers. Stack for +2 or not stack?
Official reply please, there are many assumptions one way or another.

[Impaqt]

lol

I told you guys the devs don't play this game.

That has to be the absolute worst way possible to gain +1 damage. Ever. And I bet it comes in really handy... the mob will be at 74% health instead of 75% when it reaches you!

Huh? WOuldnt an 18barb/2 Ranger be able to see +6 STR from teh Rage (In addition to all the regular rage buffs), 6d6 Vicious Damage, AND bump their Crit Multiplier up to X5?????

THat seems like a LOT more than +1 damage to me.....

[lord_of_rage]

So my hvy picks will crit on a 19-20 but with a 6x crit mod?????? Thats pretty insane actually. Dwarven and Great axes 19-20 and a 5x crit, and kopeshes 17-20 and a 5x crit???. Thats pretty nuts. Yes the extra crit range is nice but wow when crits land its going to be insane. I can see wf THF barbs with great axes and all the pa aps maxed critting for insane dmg. Yes this def takes the barb back to dps. I was leary of it at first but wow. So my question is in playtesting how does a crit rage 1-2 speced barb stack up against a FB speced barb? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Turial]

Just one quick question so we can get a confirm or deny. Barb frenzy 2 and 3 crit multipliers. Stack for +2 or not stack?
Official reply please, there are many assumptions one way or another.

You would get +2 to critical multipliers similar to how you used to get +2 to critical range with crit rage.

[Turial]

Huh? WOuldnt an 18barb/2 Ranger be able to see +6 STR from teh Rage (In addition to all the regular rage buffs), 6d6 Vicious Damage, AND bump their Crit Multiplier up to X5?????

THat seems like a LOT more than +1 damage to me.....

The enhancement says it only applies vicious to melee weapons which is why we are confused.

[Kistilan]

So, has anyone considered Frenzied Evasion Kensai with a 2-handed weapon?

It's looking like a pretty good deal with less pain than the awesome viscious attack for Barb Frenzied Berserker at level 18. The extra fighter feats and armor mastery would be helpful too (whirlwind, mobility, +2 ac in mithril +5 or dragonscale hide)

However, the capstone for a 20th Barbarian would be my ruling factor on whether I go Frenzied Evasion Kensai or Pure Barbarian with Capstone.

Also, the question is now begged whether a Kensai 2-Handed Specialization glancing blows stacks with the Frenzied Barbarian 2-handed glancing blows? Can we get an answer on this Eladrin?

[Milolyen]

Just one quick question so we can get a confirm or deny. Barb frenzy 2 and 3 crit multipliers. Stack for +2 or not stack?
Official reply please, there are many assumptions one way or another.

Umm Read the entire post ... how else would a pick get a x6 multiplier???

Milolyen

[Mayen]

Hey ya, good catch there miloyen thanks for the sarcastic heads up.

[Bludnut]

All the 2 weapon barbs get to waste feats on power attack and cleave? What a joke.

[Gratch]

Hmmm... time to get out the dps calculators. I'm guessing TWF is still the best single target damage. Is a crit rage 2 TWF a lot more damaging than a fully frenzied TWF?

I hope in order to make THF viable, a number of the new Mod 9 missions at least have cases where you get SWARMED by enemies.

[Spisey]

All the 2 weapon barbs get to waste feats on power attack and cleave? What a joke.


Hehe the joke is NOT having PA on your barb....

[DaveyCrockett]

Why disallow taking Crit Rage I and II if it counts as a Barbarian PrC, and doesn't stack with FB?

Leaving it grandfathered in is ridiculous if it's not available to new builds.

[Spisey]

Now to figure out how to fit the dodge / spring attack line AND cleave on my 12 barb / 6 ranger / 2 rogue for a tempest fb!

[Impaqt]

So you can keep the crit rage 1 and 2 _AND_ purchase frenzied berzerker 1 2 & 3 ? That my friends, is insane. It says you only lose the crit rage if you reset your enhancements, so just make sure you qualify for berzerker before it goes live.

-Whargoul

Sarlona: Bottles, Kungfu, Devilride, Robotdevil, Bladebarian

ACtually it was said inthe other thread that if you retain Critical Rage, you wont be able to take Frenzied.. Critacl Rage will Count as your Barb Prc.

[Whargoul]

So you can keep the crit rage 1 and 2 _AND_ purchase frenzied berzerker 1 2 & 3 ? That my friends, is insane. It says you only lose the crit rage if you reset your enhancements, so just make sure you qualify for berzerker before it goes live.

-Whargoul

Sarlona: Bottles, Kungfu, Devilride, Robotdevil, Bladebarian

[Lorien_the_First_One]

So you can keep the crit rage 1 and 2 _AND_ purchase frenzied berzerker 1 2 & 3 ? That my friends, is insane. It says you only lose the crit rage if you reset your enhancements, so just make sure you qualify for berzerker before it goes live.

-Whargoul

Sarlona: Bottles, Kungfu, Devilride, Robotdevil, Bladebarian

Nope, take a look, it says that if you keep the old enhancements they will count as your Barb speciality, meaning that you can't pick up Frenzied until/unless you reset to get rid of the crit rage.

And that's a great way to go BTW devs....that way people who designed for the old way and want to keep it can but those who want to try the new thing can as well. No nerfing, just a forward looking approach, well done!

[Kistilan]

Nope... top of the post says crit rage I & II count as your specialty... which locks out all other class specialties such as FB I-III

Wait, so only 1 PrC even if it's from different classes? 'cuz I think that nukes my desire to try a Barb 12 6 Fighter. I haven't multi-PrC'd (or tried) so I don't know the mechanical aspects.

[Gadget2775]

So you can keep the crit rage 1 and 2 _AND_ purchase frenzied berzerker 1 2 & 3 ? That my friends, is insane. It says you only lose the crit rage if you reset your enhancements, so just make sure you qualify for berzerker before it goes live.

-Whargoul

Sarlona: Bottles, Kungfu, Devilride, Robotdevil, Bladebarian

No sir, you can't. Crit Rage will count as your Barbarian PrE which locks out all other Barbarian PrE's.

**EDIT** So many responses sooooo quick. Can't tell this one had us all worked into a FRENZIE :) **/EDIT**

[Mhykke]

All the 2 weapon barbs get to waste feats on power attack...

Ummm, what?




So you can keep the crit rage 1 and 2 _AND_ purchase frenzied berzerker 1 2 & 3 ? That my friends, is insane. It says you only lose the crit rage if you reset your enhancements, so just make sure you qualify for berzerker before it goes live.

-Whargoul

Sarlona: Bottles, Kungfu, Devilride, Robotdevil, Bladebarian

Read this part again:






Barbarian Critical Rage I and II can no longer be trained. Characters that currently possess these enhancements will retain them until they reset their enhancements, and these enhancements count as their "Barbarian specialty"

[Kistilan]

misread

Epic Fail (read your misread) :D j/k'n

[Gratch]

So you can keep the crit rage 1 and 2 _AND_ purchase frenzied berzerker 1 2 & 3 ? That my friends, is insane. It says you only lose the crit rage if you reset your enhancements, so just make sure you qualify for berzerker before it goes live.


Nope... top of the post says crit rage I & II count as your specialty... which locks out all other same class specialties such as FB I-III

Though with 20 levels, crit rage II + tempest I is still possible on a 14b/6r. Though there may be changes to tempest I.

[Milolyen]

So you can keep the crit rage 1 and 2 _AND_ purchase frenzied berzerker 1 2 & 3 ? That my friends, is insane. It says you only lose the crit rage if you reset your enhancements, so just make sure you qualify for berzerker before it goes live.

-Whargoul

Sarlona: Bottles, Kungfu, Devilride, Robotdevil, Bladebarian

Might want to read a little closer. Particularly to the two sentances after where he said you can no longer train crit rage 1 and 2.

Milolyen

[Xanstrollinoax]

So you can keep the crit rage 1 and 2 _AND_ purchase frenzied berzerker 1 2 & 3 ? That my friends, is insane. It says you only lose the crit rage if you reset your enhancements, so just make sure you qualify for berzerker before it goes live.

-Whargoul

Sarlona: Bottles, Kungfu, Devilride, Robotdevil, Bladebarian

No crit rage is being removed, you can keep it by not respeccing your enhancements BUT it counts as your Pre while you have it....so its 2 crit range or multiplier not both.

Edit: too slow

[bobbryan2]

Might want to read a little closer. Particularly to the two sentances after where he said you can no longer train crit rage 1 and 2.

Milolyen

Well.. he does need to read closer... but that's not the part he needs to reread.

[Eladrin]

Huh? WOuldnt an 18barb/2 Ranger be able to see +6 STR from teh Rage (In addition to all the regular rage buffs), 6d6 Vicious Damage, AND bump their Crit Multiplier up to X5?????

THat seems like a LOT more than +1 damage to me.....
The +6 Strength and a x5 Crit Multiplier were the interesting part to me. Neither side of Vicious affects bows at this time. If people would prefer it to, however, I can put it "on the whiteboard" for investigation in the future.


Also, the question is now begged whether a Kensai 2-Handed Specialization glancing blows stacks with the Frenzied Barbarian 2-handed glancing blows?
Yes. The increases to chance-to-produce-effects-on-glancing-blows stack with each other. (As well as with the Warforged line, and Two Handed Fighting.)


ie, will you hint at what is changing?
We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.

[Impaqt]

misread

[Whargoul]

Good catch Gratch. As much as I would love to play with them both, I sincerely hope you are right about these 2 lines being mutually exclusive.

We all know enhancements have had their flaws from time to time. For example, all you need to get toughness enhancements is the minos legens helm, then you can take it off and retain the enhancements.

-Whargoul

Sarlona: Bottles, Kungfu, Devilride, Robotdevil, Bladebarian

[Milolyen]

Wait, so only 1 PrC even if it's from different classes? 'cuz I think that nukes my desire to try a Barb 12 6 Fighter. I haven't multi-PrC'd (or tried) so I don't know the mechanical aspects.

You can only have one class PRE at a time and Crit Rage 1 and 2 will be considered a PRE while you have them. You could still take kensai 1 if you go 6 lvls of fighter while keeping Crit Rage 1 and 2 IF you don't respec once mod 9 goes live. Once Mod 9 goes live Crit rage 1 and 2 will no longer exist but current char's will be grandfathered in as long as they do not respec.

Milolyen

[Strakeln]

Huh? WOuldnt an 18barb/2 Ranger be able to see +6 STR from teh Rage (In addition to all the regular rage buffs), 6d6 Vicious Damage, AND bump their Crit Multiplier up to X5?????

THat seems like a LOT more than +1 damage to me.....Consider the following, Impaqt:

1) The quoted comment was placed under FB1, not FB2 or 3.
2) The quoted text says "Ranger/barbarian", implying more ranger levels than barbarian.
3) The quoted text says "archer". "Archer" implies "range-focused". I'd be hard-pressed to consider anyone "range-focused" if they didn't have manyshot...

Your 18/2 barb/rgr example is a "barb/ranger", not a "ranger/barb archer".

[EKKM]

We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.

While I imagine there will be a great cry of rage at this proposal I agree with it. Barbarians and rapiers just seems wrong to me. I dont have any high level barbarians who invested in GS rapiers or WoP rapiers so take that for what it is worth.

[juniorpfactors]

Nope, take a look, it says that if you keep the old enhancements they will count as your Barb speciality, meaning that you can't pick up Frenzied until/unless you reset to get rid of the crit rage.

And that's a great way to go BTW devs....that way people who designed for the old way and want to keep it can but those who want to try the new thing can as well. No nerfing, just a forward looking approach, well done!

Agreed Its a way to add a whole new barbarian build, without messing with those that have bound dual wop rapiers
builds

be careful what you ask for, double crits damage sounds nice and maybe, but I see more red/purple name with Heavy fort aka our newest mod 8 mini raid


jrp

[EazyWeazy]

We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.

This would be really awesome IMO. :)

[Kistilan]

You can only have one class PRE at a time and Crit Rage 1 and 2 will be considered a PRE while you have them. You could still take kensai 1 if you go 6 lvls of fighter while keeping Crit Rage 1 and 2 IF you don't respec once mod 9 goes live. Once Mod 9 goes live Crit rage 1 and 2 will no longer exist but current char's will be grandfathered in as long as they do not respec.

Milolyen


Thanks Mili -- suddenly I'm on a timeline again with my barbarian build. CRIKE!!! :eek:

Relics, level 1 Warforged Rogue, preparing or zerg to level 16 in prep for Mod 9. GO!

[Angelus_dead]

We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.
Only 19-20? A winner is me.

[Alavatar]

We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.

What about just applying the benefit to non-finessable weapons?

[frugal_gourmet]

We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.

Maybe a good idea.

[Gratch]

Neither side of Vicious affects bows at this time. If people would prefer it to, however, I can put it "on the whiteboard" for investigation in the future.

I have one and have seen a number of 2R/14B builds currently out there. If Frenzied fully worked with bows I might think about switching feats from TWF lines to Many Shot + THF line (and adding 4B instead of 4R). Instead of having vicious do damage to the player holding the bow... have vicious tick some non-perm damage on the bow at some %age. :)

[EKKM]

What about just applying the benefit to non-finessable weapons?

That is a really good suggestion.

[Mellkor]

Doesn't this seems a bit overpowered, especially compared to the other PrC info published to date?...

[maddmatt70]

The silver bow would be a nice weapon for an 18 barbarian 2 ranger build berserker.. Don't know how it would stack up dps wise vs an arcane archer/kensai build or the deepwood sniper of the future?

Really interesting decision regarding applying it to rapiers. I kind of agree with the mindset of not making it available to rapiers.. Seems silly that all barbarians will eventually be using rapiers..

[Impaqt]

Consider the following, Impaqt:

1) The quoted comment was placed under FB1, not FB2 or 3.
2) The quoted text says "Ranger/barbarian", implying more ranger levels than barbarian.
3) The quoted text says "archer". "Archer" implies "range-focused". I'd be hard-pressed to consider anyone "range-focused" if they didn't have manyshot...

Your 18/2 barb/rgr example is a "barb/ranger", not a "ranger/barb archer".

I think People get too caught up in "Definitions".. As Eladrin already Pointed out, My Assesment was correct (Except for the Vicious damage part)

It wouldnt be a streatch for a 18Barb/2Ranger to have Manyshot either. Its Just a Feat.... Rangers get it for free at l6, but anyone can take it that meet the prereqs. Perhaps he should of said "Ranged Barbarian" rather than Ranger/Barbarian.....

[Strumpoo]

That vicious effect is a death knell for the frenzied berserker...


there is no way that a barb can survive cleaving in a big group with that on.. For extra 2D6 damage... NO THANKS.

How long do you think the cleric's mana will last while we are fighting a 40,000 hitpoint frost giant when we are taking 1d3 damage every swing. Now how about a pack of them that are surrounding us and beating on us at the same time? And we are cleaving ourselves for 5d3 every cleave?? :eek:

Oh yeah, and we just lost our extra crit range so the damage won't be coming as fast. :rolleyes:

I haven't run any numbers but to me is sounds like our crit range is decreasing by 100% if we go frenzied? At least with the THF weapons.

Our crit damage is going up by 67%?

Sounds like a loss in DPS to me.

Not to mention we just lost half our AP's by respeccing into the berseker. Jeez. How many ap's do I need to spend???

I think that this enhancement sounds very poor as it stands.

Yeah it will put up lots of pretty big damage numbers when you crit on that 19 and 20.

But other than that you will just be sucking down cleric's blue bars like a ravenous black hole...

This enhancement really sucks as well for us maul and great axe users out there.
Yippie back to the boring SOS or go TWF and use the new SUPER dwarven axes and Kopesh (which will do almost as much damage as a maul with frenzied)..

I don't see a reason to spec out of my current crit rage II barb for this atm.

I will however wait to see the full details. since I don't know what the glancing blow frequency and such will be.



My suggestions:

Up the crit multiplier even more on THF. Otherwise it will still be dual wield central.

Lower the AP cost. Barbs are almost to pally levels of AP expenditure already.

Ditch the Vicious. It sucks, and isn't viable in this game with the mobs super inflated hitpoints.

Make the berserker have a higher chance of Greensteel Tier III uber effects go off while in berserker mode. At least it will make us ohhh and ahhh while we are killing ourselves and the party (since the cleric won't be able to heal anyone else).

Make it that any barb who want to wield a "sissy" weapon like a rapier takes a -20 fort save for lacking the ahem.. male parts to use a real barb weapon..:p

[bobbryan2]

The +6 Strength and a x5 Crit Multiplier were the interesting part to me. Neither side of Vicious affects bows at this time. If people would prefer it to, however, I can put it "on the whiteboard" for investigation in the future.


I'm still wondering why a current ranger/barbarian would ever choose to switch to Frenzied Berserker in the first place.

If you have to choose between +2 to threat range, vs expending HP to get a +2 to multiplier. It's not even a contest.

[bobbryan2]

Doesn't this seems a bit overpowered, especially compared to the other PrC info published to date?...

If by overpowered, you mean... I don't know anyone that'll actually take it yet.

Then yes.

Barb Crit Rage I and II maybe have been overpowered. But this?

[Strakeln]

We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.This just seems wrong-wrong-wrong-wrong.

Pick a weapon, or pick a class of weapons (ex: two-handed) if you insist on going down this route.

****... I really believed you guys when you said you were looking to enhance other classes instead of nerfing the barbarian. To be clear, the original complaint was that THF fighting was UNDER-powered.

These changes are looking more and more like good candidates for my "Dealing with the Devil" thread.

Example
Players: We want THF to be a viable option. We're sick of TWF barb being the only smart choice.
Turbine: Granted. You can now hit harder, but hit hard less often. We've combined your class with the monk, you will now have 18 clicks before you are prepared for a single fight. Also, if you'd like to be a viable build with these changes, you had better have a cleric strapped to your back. You will now need to tip a cleric a stack of heal scrolls... just to get to VoD!! All those weapons you crafted can now go into the bank and collect dust while you grind out the Shroud for more ingredients. Hope you still like beating on portals, suckas!

[Strumpoo]

A real barb swings a big freaking hammer or a monsterous axe.. Not some glorified scimitar. Especially big scimitars that swing sloooooooooooooow :p

[bobbryan2]

In an effort to balance with two weapon fighting, I vote you make it only apply to the weapon in your primary hand, be it S&B or THF.

That wouldn't balance anything... it would just make TWF barbarians avoid Frenzied Berserker.

[Mayen]

We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.

All I have to say about this is, it looks like EQ2 when they bowed down to every thing the masses on the forums posted and then basically killed the game. You have deviated from the game enough let the weapons choose dont pigeon hole us into what these masses feel is appropriate so that their 6ranger splash whatever feels uber compared to the barb. That idea actually really burns me that you would even THINK of limiting it. Heck FB PRC is already butchered enough as is from the PNP addition yet I could still live with it. Make it so that on your 50% fort end boss mobs that the barbs are SUPPOSED to be designed for dealing with and frenzied berzerkor is SUPPOSED to hieghten, we get a real crit once every 20 swings? Barbs will have gone to the wayside as low DPS, low AC, high HP mana sponges with no discernable asset to the party, they wont be able to hold agro over any other class, they wont be able to put out the DPS of any of the other melee classes.. So do that and kill the barb.

[Angelus_dead]

What about just applying the benefit to non-finessable weapons?
That would still leave Scimitars and even Longswords as superior to Dwarven Waraxes, which is pretty bad.

Yes, the aesthetic problem is reduced when you're using a scimi instead of a rapier, but the game-balance problem of retroactively nerfing axes that people have grinded Shroud for remains important.

[Impaqt]

Doesn't this seems a bit overpowered, especially compared to the other PrC info published to date?...


Not at all considering the Trade off.... How many Hit points do trash mobs have nowadays? Do you think this enhancment line will allow Frenzied Beserkers to kil them faster than the old Critical Rage barbarians? Probobly not.... Maybe it'll even things out....

THis adds a LOT of damage to red/Purple named though.. Something many crit range focused barbarians lacked.

[maddmatt70]

I think People get too caught up in "Definitions".. As Eladrin already Pointed out, My Assesment was correct (Except for the Vicious damage part)

It wouldnt be a streatch for a 18Barb/2Ranger to have Manyshot either. Its Just a Feat.... Rangers get it for free at l6, but anyone can take it that meet the prereqs. Perhaps he should of said "Ranged Barbarian" rather than Ranger/Barbarian.....

After rethinking this you could make a 1 ranger 1 bard 18 barbarian Berserker/arcane archer. Just create arrows before you rage. The build would have some more difficulty with feats and rage/creating arrows, but it could work. I don't know how that compares to the kensai - a big factor would be how long the kensai power surge lasts. You would also be pretty married to archery with the less feats available..

[Gol]

We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.
In an effort to balance with two weapon fighting, I vote you make it only apply to the weapon in your primary hand, be it S&B or THF.

[DagazUlf]

We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.

I like it. :)

[kingfisher]

While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.


please for the love of all that is unholy take the **** aristocratical deuling swords away from the battlergers. no self respecting barbarian would be caught dead using a sewing needle unless he broke his axe off in a hill giants ass.

[Tanka]

Looks good.

Typo in the Frenzied Berzerker I AP cost?? 4 AP? and Frenzied II is 2?


Seems odd.
It's standard for most of the PrEs. Thief-Acrobat is 4/2. Same with Kensai.

Ed: Tanka the Ninja!

[Eladrin]

Only 19-20? A winner is me.
It does make the assumption that everyone has Improved Critical in their chosen weapon, but I don't think that's unlikely by level 18.

[Gratch]

What if you instead added to FB II: Your weapon's natural crit range will be a minimum of 19. This would help out picks, mauls, axes, etc... BARBO WEAPONS.

[Impaqt]

Looks good.

Typo in the Frenzied Berzerker I AP cost?? 4 AP? and Frenzied II is 2?


Seems odd.

That is the Progression stated in another thread... High Buy in,. but small investemt to bump it up.. Other than all the other prereqs that rarely, if ever, get used...

[Dexxaan]

Looks good.

Typo in the Frenzied Berzerker I AP cost?? 4 AP? and Frenzied II is 2?


Seems odd.

[Impaqt]

I'm still wondering why a current ranger/barbarian would ever choose to switch to Frenzied Berserker in the first place.

If you have to choose between +2 to threat range, vs expending HP to get a +2 to multiplier. It's not even a contest.


Keep in mind I'm not a Numbers Guy...

Plain +5 Longbow 17-20 X3 Crit w/ 40 STR 4 Crits per 20 attacks

4.5+5+15STR = 24.5 average base damage x16 = 392
24.5x3= 73.5 x4 Crits = 294
686 Points of damage across 20 Attacks.

+5 Longbow 19-20 x5 Crit w/ 46 STR 2 Crits Per 20 attacks
4.5 +5 + 18= 27.5 x18 = 495
27.5x5 =137.5 x2=275
770 Points across those same 20 attacks.

Thatsa 12% Increase in Base damage.

[maddmatt70]

Honestly, it doesn't matter... I probably don't even want to know why anyone would think that a range-focused barbarian would be a good idea. Range-focused rangers aren't a good idea in their current implementation, and they will have the dex to hit what they're shooting at...

Agreed the devs either have to increase a ranged characters dps when not in manyshot, lengthen the manyshot period/decrease cooldown timer, or increase rate of fire. The frenzied berserker doesn't do enough of any of the above three.

[Strakeln]

I think People get too caught up in "Definitions".. As Eladrin already Pointed out, My Assesment was correct (Except for the Vicious damage part)

It wouldnt be a streatch for a 18Barb/2Ranger to have Manyshot either. Its Just a Feat.... Rangers get it for free at l6, but anyone can take it that meet the prereqs. Perhaps he should of said "Ranged Barbarian" rather than Ranger/Barbarian.....Honestly, it doesn't matter... I probably don't even want to know why anyone would think that a range-focused barbarian would be a good idea. Range-focused rangers aren't a good idea in their current implementation, and they will have the dex to hit what they're shooting at...

[Tanka]

dude, in this game, thats not unlikely by level 12. (poor rogues have to wait!)

imp crit may be the single most essential melee feat in the game :\
Truth. The only reason you wouldn't take Imp. Crit. is if you only plan on using a Mineral 2 -- which is an astoundingly silly idea.

Ed: 4. 4 Ninjas today.

[Mhykke]

Looks good.

Typo in the Frenzied Berzerker I AP cost?? 4 AP? and Frenzied II is 2?


Seems odd.

Most of the lines are going to be 4/2/2.

[Junts]

It does make the assumption that everyone has Improved Critical in their chosen weapon, but I don't think that's unlikely by level 18.

dude, in this game, thats not unlikely by level 12. (poor rogues have to wait!)

imp crit may be the single most essential melee feat in the game :\

[Strumpoo]

Honestly, it doesn't matter... I probably don't even want to know why anyone would think that a range-focused barbarian would be a good idea. Range-focused rangers aren't a good idea in their current implementation, and they will have the dex to hit what they're shooting at...

SUCH A GOOD POINT!!

1,000,000 points to you! :D

[Nick_RC]

The weapon dps needs to be changed is all. Big crit multiplier weapons - the big damage dealers - greataxe, hvy picks etc etc - the ones that generate the king hits that barbs are know for need to be ahead of the dps power curve as opposed to rapiers....

Saying it doesnt apply to finesseable weapons means that most 2wf barbs will need oversize 2wf or take a to hit penalty as off hand weapons are finesseable.

So feats look like this

PA
Cleave
2wf
I2wf
g2wf
Icrit
oversize(unless they twinked enough to absorb the to hit penalty)

2 cookie cutter. the barb capstone will have to be something decent too match the 2 lvls of ftr, and the versatility of the feats.

[Milolyen]

Turbine: Granted. You can now hit harder, but hit hard less often. We've combined your class with the monk, you will now have 18 clicks before you are prepared for a single fight. Also, if you'd like to be a viable build with these changes, you had better have a cleric strapped to your back. You will now need to tip a cleric a stack of heal scrolls... just to get to VoD!! All those weapons you crafted can now go into the bank and collect dust while you grind out the Shroud for more ingredients. Hope you still like beating on portals, suckas!

Again ... who says currently built barbs HAVE to respec out of crit rage 1 and 2 and put their current hard earned equipment into the bank? It just stops the game from being over run by them as they will no longer be able to be created come mod 9.

Milolyen

[Nick_RC]

In an effort to balance with two weapon fighting, I vote you make it only apply to the weapon in your primary hand, be it S&B or THF.

Gol i normally agree with you but i think we cant put awful ideas out there like this until we knw percentages for the glancing blow procs...p. quiet your mouth Groan will suffer!!!!!:D

[Drider]

The weapon dps needs to be changed is all. Big crit multiplier weapons - the big damage dealers - greataxe, hvy picks etc etc - the ones that generate the king hits that barbs are know for need to be ahead of the dps power curve as opposed to rapiers....

Saying it doesnt apply to finesseable weapons means that most 2wf barbs will need oversize 2wf or take a to hit penalty as off hand weapons are finesseable.

So feats look like this

PA
Cleave
2wf
I2wf
g2wf
Icrit
oversize(unless they twinked enough to absorb the to hit penalty)

2 cookie cutter. the barb capstone will have to be something decent too match the 2 lvls of ftr, and the versatility of the feats.

What? If a raged barbarian is having problems hitting because they don't have Oversized TWF, then they have more problems then the lack of that feat.

[Eudimio]

Okay,

This is an increase to barbarian dps versus the status quo (crit rage 2). Currently dual picks are 17-20 x4, dual rapiers would be 15-20 x4. And that is better than 19-20 x6. Axes versus scimitars and falchions are similarly undermatched and less powerful.

So the question, Eladrin, is: Do you want current barbarians to completely change out their weapons? It WILL happen. People WILL be upset.

The 19-20 "supercrit" solution is very much against the spirit of this game. Making the change to a 50% and 100% improvement to the critical modifier will level the playing field and keep all of those dorfs happy. So axes will be 19-20 x4 for FB2 and 19-20 x6 for FB3. 15-20 x4 still looks nice, but it is no longer a must do.

Happy Hunting.

[Impaqt]

Damage comes out a bit higher. I only got about a 45 hit point difference in my build.. but you're expending 30 hit points, having to keep 3 rages going... and on top of that, all on crit effects are worse off, puncturing, enfeebling, banishing, smiting.

I guess it's more of a trade off than I said earlier. But I still can't think of a reason I'd switch. It really seems like a pain to give up 30 HP and concentrate on making sure that 3 rages are up. Especially if they have different timers.

You realize the 30 Hit points you "Give Up" is simply treated as Damage Taken right? Nothing a Cure serious pot or the next Mass heal that hits the party wont fix rightup.

[Strakeln]

Again ... who says currently built barbs HAVE to respec out of crit rage 1 and 2 and put their current hard earned equipment into the bank? It just stops the game from being over run by them as they will no longer be able to be created come mod 9.Eventually, every barb will have to reset their enhancements. Those that don't will likely be retired. Some will hold out for years, of course, but they will be pretty limited.

The second point... it, uh, is arguably waaaaay too late for that. Essentially, what the strategy of "let it ride so long as you don't reset" does is create another class of "haves" that the new players can never achieve. A minimal, even negligible problem, considering my previous statement.

What I expect we will see is a huge wave of semi-retirements. People will put their crit rage II barbs on ice until a year or two down the road, when the devs have forgotten that crit-rage barbs still exist and they come out with some weapon that is INSANE when combined with crit rage.

[bobbryan2]

Keep in mind I'm not a Numbers Guy...

Plain +5 Longbow 17-20 X3 Crit w/ 40 STR 4 Crits per 20 attacks

4.5+5+15STR = 24.5 average base damage x16 = 392
24.5x3= 73.5 x4 Crits = 294
686 Points of damage across 20 Attacks.

+5 Longbow 19-20 x5 Crit w/ 46 STR 2 Crits Per 20 attacks
4.5 +5 + 18= 27.5 x18 = 495
27.5x5 =137.5 x2=275
770 Points across those same 20 attacks.

Thatsa 12% Increase in Base damage.

Damage comes out a bit higher. I only got about a 45 hit point difference in my build.. but you're expending 30 hit points, having to keep 3 rages going... and on top of that, all on crit effects are worse off, puncturing, enfeebling, banishing, smiting.

I guess it's more of a trade off than I said earlier. But I still can't think of a reason I'd switch. It really seems like a pain to give up 30 HP and concentrate on making sure that 3 rages are up. Especially if they have different timers.

[Junts]

Truth. The only reason you wouldn't take Imp. Crit. is if you only plan on using a Mineral 2 -- which is an astoundingly silly idea.

Ed: 4. 4 Ninjas today.

and evne then you take it for a different weapon line (eg the barb with a min2 greataxe and ic-pierce)

[Thrudh]

We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.

Hurray!!

Please please do this... Listening to feedback, balancing the game = awesome Devs.

[Tanka]

and evne then you take it for a different weapon line (eg the barb with a min2 greataxe and ic-pierce)
I was going to point that out, but, well, the people who have the larges to do that generally have better weapons to use than a Min2 GA -- or have the larges to trade to have a better weapon than that.

[Bludnut]

Now to figure out how to fit the dodge / spring attack line AND cleave on my 12 barb / 6 ranger / 2 rogue for a tempest fb!

My point exactly by stating that power attack and cleave are wasted feats. Some of us have already leveled tempest barbs, waiting for the cap to go up to get improved crit rages. Picking up dodge, mobility and spring attack already eats up the feats on a class that doesnt get alot to start with. And dont get me wrong, power attack is a great feat, but more so when used with a two handed weapon. All I will say about cleave is its not for me. There are way too many other good feats. The char i built was not made to be a stat damager. Just pure dps. Its comforting to know that all the time spent leveling him and gathering larges to make the two mineral II dwarven axes was all just a waste, considering the build will never be completed now.

[Strakeln]

So the question, Eladrin, is: Do you want current barbarians to completely change out their weapons? It WILL happen. People WILL be upset.Yes, they will be (funny enough, I may not be among them, I was stubborn enough to hang on to THF through all this time, and hear all the harrassment... although I'm worried my tier III Greataxe will have to be replaced, which will tick me off).


The 19-20 "supercrit" solution is very much against the spirit of this game.DING DING DING!

The 19-20 "supercrit" solution is litter. Like McDonald's cups say, "please put litter in its place".


Making the change to a 50% and 100% improvement to the critical modifier will level the playing field and keep all of those dorfs happy. So axes will be 19-20 x4 for FB2 and 19-20 x6 for FB3. 15-20 x4 still looks nice, but it is no longer a must do.Interesting.

[Angelus_dead]

It does make the assumption that everyone has Improved Critical in their chosen weapon, but I don't think that's unlikely by level 18.
Yes, any Frenzied Berserker who doesn't have Imp Crit (or Keen) for his main DPS weapon is brain-damaged...

However, as a side note, if you do a system where a +X bonus to crit mult is given on attack rolls of a certain number, then it would be slightly better if that system treated attacks outside your crit threat as crits with a 1x multiplier.

That's actually more elegant. It would mean, for example, that if FB3 gives +1, +2, +3 crit mult on attack rolls of 18, 19, 20, and the barb started using a Maul without Imp Crit Bludgeon, then his crit profile would be 18:x2, 19:x3, and 20:x5. Or if he was using a Keen Pick it would be 18:x2, 19:x5, 20:x6.

That produces results that are slightly more fair, especially if you'd like the bonuses to extend down below 19. However, for simplicity of programming, you could restrict the bonuses to 19-20, and assume that everyone already crits on 19.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Honestly, it doesn't matter... I probably don't even want to know why anyone would think that a range-focused barbarian would be a good idea. Range-focused rangers aren't a good idea in their current implementation, and they will have the dex to hit what they're shooting at...
range specced barbs make sense if you what to excel at ranged combat. their dps far outpaces a ranged specced ranger's.

[Nick_RC]

What? If a raged barbarian is having problems hitting because they don't have Oversized TWF, then they have more problems then the lack of that feat.

WF 2wf both full PA lines no oversize = - 15.

To hit consistently on most mobs oversize is nice for a wf 2wf.

they do the best dmg but take a big too hit ding. if ur talking a -8 for a non wf 2 hander with full PA i agree but thats a difference of 7 to hit.

So yeah for alot of situations a barb should hit on a two but too push for top dps you ride that too hit line finely.

N

[Strumpoo]

You realize the 30 Hit points you "Give Up" is simply treated as Damage Taken right? Nothing a Cure serious pot or the next Mass heal that hits the party wont fix rightup.

Until you cleave into a pack of mobs and deal 30 hitpoints damage to yourself, in ONE second. (550 hps barb = 5% health on a cleave, 20 swings till dead, if fully engaged and getting bad rolls.) Then repeat that every 5 seconds... All the while getting beat on by said mobs at the same time. How long does it take to beat down one of the new SUPER mobs, using Hitpoint damage?

My barb doesn't have enough hitpoints to soak up all that vicious, that is for SURE!

That is ridiculous damage to yourself for very little return..


I expect the next *** thread from clerics (how they are supposed to heal a party with a barb in it) any minute now...

[Impaqt]

Until you cleave into a pack of mobs and deal 30 hitpoints damage to yourself, in ONE second. (550 hps barb = 5% health on a cleave, 20 swings till dead, if fully engaged and getting bad rolls.) Then repeat that every 5 seconds... All the while getting beat on by said mobs at the same time. How long does it take to beat down one of the new SUPER mobs, using Hitpoint damage?

My barb doesn't have enough hitpoints to soak up all that vicious, that is for SURE!

That is ridiculous damage to yourself for very little return..


I expect the next *** thread from clerics (how they are supposed to heal a party with a barb in it) any minute now...


WHAT??? Your totally reading it wrong. You expend the Hit point to enter your Frenzied Rages.. Not on your Supreme Cleaves....

[Tanka]

I expect the next *** thread from clerics (how they are supposed to heal a party with a barb in it) any minute now...
Not every Barb will be FB. There will, after all, be two other PrEs to choose from.

[Strumpoo]

WHAT??? Your totally reading it wrong. You expend the Hit point to enter your Frenzied Rages.. Not on your Supreme Cleaves....

The way I read it you gain 2D6 damage for a 1d3 of damage to yourself.

since you are immediately adding vicious to your melee weapons by entering frenzy...

Isn't that what it says?

[Tanka]

The way I read it you gain 2D6 damage for a 1d3 of damage to yourself. Isn't that what it says?
You may expend 10HP to Frenzy.

You may also expend 10HP to Supreme Cleave.

While Frenzied, the Vicious property is applied to all your weapons.

[dragons1ayer74]

WHAT??? Your totally reading it wrong. You expend the Hit point to enter your Frenzied Rages.. Not on your Supreme Cleaves....

Hmm here is what I read....



Supreme Cleave:
Benefit: Expend 10 hit points to attack all nearby enemies.

Supreme Cleave has no cooldown other than a standard 1 second global cooldown for attack actions. As long as you've got the hit points, you can continue to bring the pain.


At least we can keep our CR2. Mod 9 could be disasterous to this game...with the changes (nerf and cleric nerf) to CR2 the changes (nerf) to tempest the conintued blanked immunites and inflated hit points to trash mobs (caster nerf)....I guess it will be rouges for the win :)

[Milolyen]

Eventually, every barb will have to reset their enhancements. Those that don't will likely be retired. Some will hold out for years, of course, but they will be pretty limited.

The second point... it, uh, is arguably waaaaay too late for that. Essentially, what the strategy of "let it ride so long as you don't reset" does is create another class of "haves" that the new players can never achieve. A minimal, even negligible problem, considering my previous statement.

What I expect we will see is a huge wave of semi-retirements. People will put their crit rage II barbs on ice until a year or two down the road, when the devs have forgotten that crit-rage barbs still exist and they come out with some weapon that is INSANE when combined with crit rage.

They will never be forced to respec on anything but their own terms. I have been playing for over 2 and a half years and the only time I have ever respecced (well since they gave us the option too) was when they introduced something into the game that I wanted over what I currently had. Then by the time we get to the point where those that have put in so much work on their crit rage 2 barbs get more out of a new enhancement over crit rage 2/the equipment the grinded for, I am sure greensteel items and the time spent to get them will be irrelevent as a new grind will take its place. Then while doing that grind they can respec out of crit rage 2 on their terms or keep going the way they where.

Personally I think crit rage 1 and 2 should have never been put in in the first place as barb's are about power and power is reflected in crit multiplier not crit range. Sorry but I feel in a game like this there does need to be nerfs at times to keep the power creep in check and think this is a good option turbine is giving everyone.

Milolyen

[Strumpoo]

You may expend 10HP to Frenzy.

You may also expend 10HP to Supreme Cleave.

While Frenzied, the Vicious property is applied to all your weapons.


Yep that is what I read too.

Hence the 30 instant damage to yourself. 20 from the berserk and cleave and 10 from the craptastic vicious effect. (figuring 3-4 mobs around you)..

Repeat the damage (vicious) over and over and you will be on the sideline screaming HEAL ME PLEASE in no time.

I actually wouldn't mind the crit rage nerf if the multiplier on my crits went up SUBSTANTIALY on my THF weapons. +2 doesn't do it for me. A +4 (just on THF weapons) might be just about right. :D

[Impaqt]

Well, Looks like I may have been misreading some of the expendable hit pints.. Still though, In a Mass heal situaton, I doubt it'll be the end of the world.

[Lifespawn]

They will never be forced to respec on anything but their own terms. I have been playing for over 2 and a half years and the only time I have ever respecced (well since they gave us the option too) was when they introduced something into the game that I wanted over what I currently had. Then by the time we get to the point where those that have put in so much work on their crit rage 2 barbs get more out of a new enhancement over crit rage 2/the equipment the grinded for, I am sure greensteel items and the time spent to get them will be irrelevent as a new grind will take its place. Then while doing that grind they can respec out of crit rage 2 on their terms or keep going the way they where.

Personally I think crit rage 1 and 2 should have never been put in in the first place as barb's are about power and power is reflected in crit multiplier not crit range. Sorry but I feel in a game like this there does need to be nerfs at times to keep the power creep in check and think this is a good option turbine is giving everyone.

Milolyen


untrue i was forced to respec on my caster there was improved heightening 3 or maxamizing 3 or something like that and they took it out.

Then they allowed us to keep it aslong as we didn't respec for awhile then they gave us the ap's back and took it away so we had to respec anyway.

[Tanka]

Well, Looks like I may have been misreading some of the expendable hit pints.. Still though, In a Mass heal situaton, I doubt it'll be the end of the world.
Yup. Remember folks, Clerics should be getting Heal, Mass. Which heals up to 250HP pre-items/enhancements/crits.

It's not something you'll want to use at L6 or 12, but by the time the Cleric has L9 spells, it'll be something to use fairly regularly while Cleave/Great Cleave are on cooldown.

[Strumpoo]

Yup. Remember folks, Clerics should be getting Heal, Mass. Which heals up to 250HP pre-items/enhancements/crits.

It's not something you'll want to use at L6 or 12, but by the time the Cleric has L9 spells, it'll be something to use fairly regularly while Cleave/Great Cleave are on cooldown.

Are arcane classes getting mass repair? For us forged barbs? :confused::p

[dragons1ayer74]

They will never be forced to respec on anything but their own terms. I have been playing for over 2 and a half years and the only time I have ever respecced (well since they gave us the option too) was when they introduced something into the game that I wanted over what I currently had. Then by the time we get to the point where those that have put in so much work on their crit rage 2 barbs get more out of a new enhancement over crit rage 2/the equipment the grinded for, I am sure greensteel items and the time spent to get them will be irrelevent as a new grind will take its place. Then while doing that grind they can respec out of crit rage 2 on their terms or keep going the way they where.

Personally I think crit rage 1 and 2 should have never been put in in the first place as barb's are about power and power is reflected in crit multiplier not crit range. Sorry but I feel in a game like this there does need to be nerfs at times to keep the power creep in check and think this is a good option turbine is giving everyone.

Milolyen

I agee that critical rage 2 was a mistake but thier are so many other mistakes (increasing attack miodifers instead of declining, tempest, blanket immunites, icey raniements, inflated hit points, inflated ACs, whackey AI, etc).

Also the quests are disigned with some of these mistakes in mind so it mucks up the real CRs of level appropriate quests both existing and new content. I am sure if the game had launched with a solid level 20 in mind it would have been a lot diffrent than where we are now. I am not convinced that "fixing" it at this point won't break it more than it already is ethier.

[Tanka]

Are arcane classes getting mass repair? For us forged barbs? :confused::p
IIRC, Artificers get a Mass Repair line in one of the supplements.

And, honestly, as a WF Barb, I'm sure you can afford at least one level of Healer's Friend and get some stacking sources of Healing Amp.

[Ustice]

Well, I won't be creating a new thread, I gotta say as a long-time cleric player, I don't know if I like this so much. You can justify that the extra damage taken is made up for by the DPS increase, but the problem is that the clerics will still have to take that extra time to heal. With the cool-downs, the most difficult part of healing is when you have several targets that need healing, but are too far apart to use a mass cure. Since the FB will need extra attention, this might be tough to keep up with. I can't say for sure, since I can't play-test it, but this sounds like an even higher drain on cleric resources. Raids like VoD in particular where it is a war of attrition with no way to replenish resources like in the Shroud make it a lot less fun to play a cleric.

How about this as a cleric capstone enhancement:


Efficient Healing
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: All Spells from the Healing Sub-School cost 20% less SP to cast, and can use wands and scrolls of those spells 20% faster (applied to cool-down).

It de-emphasizes the need for scrolls, while making them a little easier to use to keep the party alive.

[Tanka]

Since the FB will need extra attention, this might be tough to keep up with. I can't say for sure, since I can't play-test it, but this sounds like an even higher drain on cleric resources.
Then FBs will have to learn when to use the ability instead of simply mashing the ability over and over and over and over again.

In other words: Use it on a raid boss when you have a Cleric specifically tied to you. Otherwise, don't bother.

[Ilundel]

Most of these PrE for Barbarians really focus on benefits for Two Handed weapon characters. While I agree that it's kind of silly seeing Barbarian run around with toothpicks (Rapiers), I assure you that my warforged Barbarian dual wielding Khopeshes looks much more menacing.

Seriously thought, is there going to be a version of PrE's that will focus on Dual wielding barbarians ? I like what you did with this enhancement, but it is a lot more beneficial for a 2 handed barbarian then a two weapon one Because of the requirements in both feats and enhancements not really that attractive to a two weapon wielding barbarian (If your going straight barbarian, there's no way you can afford Cleave other then loosing oversize two weapon. When you loose out 4 to hit to wield heavy weapons, and add another -8 for PA, it starts to take it's toll on your DPS... ).

Finally, if you are going to implement as is, can you look into the variations in swing speed for cleave based on fighting style?? Cleave is VERY slow with both two weapon and two handed weapons. It slows you down to use cleave to a point where you could have swung twice while you completed a cleave - and with all the "chance to apply magical effects to glancing blows" your putting in there, it really does seem like cleaving is going to be a waste of time. Oh and for two weapon fighting, why bother cleaving if by the time you cleave, you would have had time to hit a mob with 5 hits?

[Impaqt]

Well, I won't be creating a new thread, I gotta say as a long-time cleric player, I don't know if I like this so much. You can justify that the extra damage taken is made up for by the DPS increase, but the problem is that the clerics will still have to take that extra time to heal. With the cool-downs, the most difficult part of healing is when you have several targets that need healing, but are too far apart to use a mass cure. Since the FB will need extra attention, this might be tough to keep up with. I can't say for sure, since I can't play-test it, but this sounds like an even higher drain on cleric resources. Raids like VoD in particular where it is a war of attrition with no way to replenish resources like in the Shroud make it a lot less fun to play a cleric.

How about this as a cleric capstone enhancement:



It de-emphasizes the need for scrolls, while making them a little easier to use to keep the party alive.


Well, as a Long time cleric, if you havent figured out that you need to let the people who zerg off die then thats your own fault.

Mass Heal should make the Hit Point loss moot. if the barbaran feels the need to run ahead and supreme cleave groups of mobs all onhis own.. He can Die all onhis own too.... AS a Player with 4 Clerics, I have NO ISSUE letting idiots die.

[Alavatar]

However, as a side note, if you do a system where a +X bonus to crit mult is given on attack rolls of a certain number, then it would be slightly better if that system treated attacks outside your crit threat as crits with a 1x multiplier.

That's actually more elegant. It would mean, for example, that if FB3 gives +1, +2, +3 crit mult on attack rolls of 18, 19, 20, and the barb started using a Maul without Imp Crit Bludgeon, then his crit profile would be 18:x2, 19:x3, and 20:x5. Or if he was using a Keen Pick it would be 18:x2, 19:x5, 20:x6.

I like this.

[hu-flung-pu]

Half-orcs are going to make this a disgusting class to play.

All that STR, and no adamantine walls to put their bare hands through.

[Kistilan]

The +6 Strength and a x5 Crit Multiplier were the interesting part to me. Neither side of Vicious affects bows at this time. If people would prefer it to, however, I can put it "on the whiteboard" for investigation in the future.

Vicious deals damage back to the player. It makes sense that you need to be physically attacking (ie connected, not ranged) for the feedback to occur. I'd vote a big fat no to vicious affecting bows or thrown weapons.

Yes. The increases to chance-to-produce-effects-on-glancing-blows stack with each other. (As well as with the Warforged line, and Two Handed Fighting.)

Secondly: I just had some experts clear up that we can't take 2 PrE/PrCs at once, so are glancing-blows currently in the rage critical enhancement line of grandfathered premod9 barbs? IE will we have the glancing blow effects of 2-hander barbarians with crit rage 1 and/or 2 so we can mash these and Kensai 1 together?

[Mhykke]

Secondly: I just had some experts clear up that we can't take 2 PrE/PrCs at once, so are glancing-blows currently in the rage critical enhancement line of grandfathered premod9 barbs? IE will we have the glancing blow effects of 2-hander barbarians with crit rage 1 and/or 2 so we can mash these and Kensai 1 together?

You can take 2 PrE/PrC's at once if they're from different classes.

[Mhykke]

Most of these PrE for Barbarians really focus on benefits for Two Handed weapon characters. While I agree that it's kind of silly seeing Barbarian run around with toothpicks (Rapiers), I assure you that my warforged Barbarian dual wielding Khopeshes looks much more menacing.

Seriously thought, is there going to be a version of PrE's that will focus on Dual wielding barbarians ? I like what you did with this enhancement, but it is a lot more beneficial for a 2 handed barbarian then a two weapon one Because of the requirements in both feats and enhancements not really that attractive to a two weapon wielding barbarian (If your going straight barbarian, there's no way you can afford Cleave other then loosing oversize two weapon. When you loose out 4 to hit to wield heavy weapons, and add another -8 for PA, it starts to take it's toll on your DPS... ).


Finally, if you are going to implement as is, can you look into the variations in swing speed for cleave based on fighting style?? Cleave is VERY slow with both two weapon and two handed weapons. It slows you down to use cleave to a point where you could have swung twice while you completed a cleave - and with all the "chance to apply magical effects to glancing blows" your putting in there, it really does seem like cleaving is going to be a waste of time. Oh and for two weapon fighting, why bother cleaving if by the time you cleave, you would have had time to hit a mob with 5 hits?

Actually, this enhancement makes TWF'ing even better, damage wise. That's the disappointing thing. It was mentioned that this would favor the THF'er, but it does the opposite. 15-20/x4, or 17-20/x5 criticals in each hand is all that needs to be said.

[Kistilan]

You can take 2 PrE/PrC's at once if they're from different classes.

ZOMG! /heart Mhykke

I thought thhat was the case. Thanks man! ;)

[Strakeln]

range specced barbs make sense if you what to excel at ranged combat. their dps far outpaces a ranged specced ranger's.Maybe in some cases, certainly not in all.

[Strumpoo]

Actually, this enhancement makes TWF'ing even better, damage wise. That's the disappointing thing. It was mentioned that this would favor the THF'er, but it does the opposite. 15-20/x4, or 17-20/x5 criticals in each hand is all that needs to be said.

Yes, I agree. This enhancment make TWF even more attractive. It is all about the crits and numbers of attacks.

The magical effects on the glancing blows had better be hitting quite often to keep up with the damage being put our by a TWF barb dual wielding kopeshes or /puke rapiers..

Especially when they are hasted and tempesting...

[sephiroth1084]

Eladrin, if you are going to make Crit Rage I and II bar the acquiring of other barbarian specialties and are going to allow them to be grandfathered in, why not rethink this stance and instead add some prerequisites to the enhancements and leave them available, but still mutually exclusive from the PrEs? That way, the people who have it and built around it do not have to leave their character in a state of suspended animation? This won't erase the ability from the game, since there will definitely be players who keep their Crit Rages, but will now, as someone else mentioned, create a split society, where some people still have this and others do not.

As for the 19-20 only crit multiplier thoughts...if you don't fix the attack speed of falchions it is a moot point (in that regard anyway). I prefer falchions to greatswords or axes on my THFs in PnP, but it is just soooooooo sloooooooow in DDO. Aside from that:

I feel that one of the main strengths of D&D (DDO) is the availability for customization and options. Is there really any reason to make such an arbitrary change? If the TWF barbarians want to sink AP and slots into useless enhancements and feats just to take 2 or 3 levels of a PrE for which they benefit from only half or 2/3 of the abilities, let them. Conversely, add THF, ITHF and GTHF to the requirements for the PrE, or make the glancing blows extras only apply if the character has at least THF.

Look at it this way: a TWF barbarian gains almost no benefit from the glancing blows increase, and if they are mixed with ranger for Tempest, they have fewer HP to go through (making all the self-damaging more dangerous), already have Die Hard as a feat, and will not reach the 3rd tier of FB anyway, netting them only a +1 to their crit multiplier. Again, if they want to invest that much for +2 Str, +1 crit multiplier, and the ability to Supreme Cleave, I say let them.

[Verdant_Force]

This class is nasty!

[Wizzly_Bear]

Maybe in some cases, certainly not in all.
:confused: been ages since i played a ranger, i cant think of a time when a ranged ranger would outdps a ranged barb, unless i am remembering incorrectly about favored enemies. do you get +2 for each one, stacking? (ie, +8 to all at 15th+, +8/6/4/2, +2 to all?) i had thought it was just +2 for each, not increasing, though your post suggests otherwise.

[honkuimushi]

I realize that the Improved crit multipliers and extra effects on glancing blows make up for this to some degree, but I'm kind of dissapointed that there is no mention of at least Improved Power Attack. I could see where Supreme Power Attack would possibly be a bit overboard, but those improvements allowed a Frenzied Berzerker to get a realiable improvement in damage even when it was not a good time to use frenzy.

I do think Viscious is a brilliant soulution for the issue of Frenzy, but I would like to see something for the times where you really can't afford the damage. It would also really give something reliable to THF Barbarians that are wary of the HP cost and are questioning the tradeoff of +2 Crit multiplier and extra glancing blow damage vs. +2 Crit Range.

[Mhykke]

:confused: been ages since i played a ranger, i cant think of a time when a ranged ranger would outdps a ranged barb, unless i am remembering incorrectly about favored enemies. do you get +2 for each one, stacking? (ie, +8 to all at 15th+, +8/6/4/2, +2 to all?) i had thought it was just +2 for each, not increasing, though your post suggests otherwise.

Increases. So the number of FE's you have x2 basically, for all of em.

[Strakeln]

I am sure greensteel items and the time spent to get them will be irrelevent as a new grind will take its place. Then while doing that grind they can respec out of crit rage 2 on their terms or keep going the way they where.That's an interesting point, I have to wonder if it will turn out that way though (I suspect that some devs may feel they went too far with GS weapon crafting, making more powerful weapons might compound that perceived mistake).


Personally I think crit rage 1 and 2 should have never been put in in the first place as barb's are about power and power is reflected in crit multiplier not crit range.I don't necessarily disagree with this.


Sorry but I feel in a game like this there does need to be nerfs at times to keep the power creep in check and think this is a good option turbine is giving everyone.I also do not necessarily disagree with this. In fact, if you look at the majority of my posts concerning this, what I'm asking for is a way to rectify the indirect impacts to those being nerfed. One (of several) examples would be the ability to deconstruct greensteel weapons.

This is a standard MMO paradigm: when you change things, players need to have a way to adapt to the changes. Most MMOs, Turbine included, recognize this (see: feat respec, spell swap, enhancement reset). But Turbine doesn't take it far enough (skill respec, and the greeensteel/attuned weapon impacts of changes like this).

[Ustice]

Well, as a Long time cleric, if you havent figured out that you need to let the people who zerg off die then thats your own fault.

Mass Heal should make the Hit Point loss moot. if the barbaran feels the need to run ahead and supreme cleave groups of mobs all onhis own.. He can Die all onhis own too.... AS a Player with 4 Clerics, I have NO ISSUE letting idiots die.

It think that what this will mean is that mass healing will become more and more important (which means that people will need to start grouping up a little more). Thankfully in Mod 9 we will also be getting Mass Heal.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Increases. So the number of FE's you have x2 basically, for all of em.
then i did remember wrong. well then....considering the fact that we fight such a low variety of enemies in the end game, yeah, a ranged ranger beats the ranged barb/FB, as long as you know what FEs to pick.

[Strakeln]

:confused: been ages since i played a ranger, i cant think of a time when a ranged ranger would outdps a ranged barb, unless i am remembering incorrectly about favored enemies. do you get +2 for each one, stacking? (ie, +8 to all at 15th+, +8/6/4/2, +2 to all?) i had thought it was just +2 for each, not increasing, though your post suggests otherwise.There's a lot of aspects that go into determining the "best ranged XX". When comparing a ranged ranger to a ranged barbarian, a few things pop up nearly immediately:

1) Dex score (meaning, to-hit)
2) Favored enemy (to-hit, damage)
3) Ram's might
4) Deepwoods Sniper

If I understand your FE damage stacking question correctly, yes, they do stack. And that makes one hell of a difference.

[Strakeln]

then i did remember wrong. well then....considering the fact that we fight such a low variety of enemies in the end game, yeah, a ranged ranger beats the ranged barb/FB, as long as you know what FEs to pick.Even completely disregarding FE, the barbarian does not win in all cases. High AC mobs, for example.

[Kistilan]

This is a standard MMO paradigm: when you change things, players need to have a way to adapt to the changes. Most MMOs, Turbine included, recognize this (see: feat respec, spell swap, enhancement reset). But Turbine doesn't take it far enough (skill respec, and the greeensteel/attuned weapon impacts of changes like this).

Boo!!!! No Skill Respec (plan better). Go farm more items too if your powerful weapon no longer is what you want to use. Plan ahead for change. When something changes in life, we don't all get free stuff to compensate. If so, I am owed a great deal in gas money.

Sorry, not saying you're being unwise in your statement, but this is Dungeons & Dragons. The fact that they took away the "advanced" from the name doesn't mean we should dumb down our thinking and planning as players. Sometimes you have to adapt and sometimes, reroll (should be rare, however).

PS: Back to original discussions on Barbarian in General? Sorry, I just feel strongly about character respec concerning skills. And items (didn't know that would be requested, but yeah... that I like even less than skill respec).

[Strakeln]

Boo!!!! No Skill Respec (plan better). Go farm more items too if your powerful weapon no longer is what you want to use. Plan ahead for change. When something changes in life, we don't all get free stuff to compensate. If so, I am owed a great deal in gas money.

Sorry, not saying you're being unwise in your statement, but this is Dungeons & Dragons. The fact that they took away the "advanced" from the name doesn't mean we should dumb down our thinking and planning as players. Sometimes you have to adapt and sometimes, reroll (should be rare, however).Sorry Kist, but your post is a cop-out, unless you're being sarcastic forgot the eye roll smiley.

As soon as you explain how I should plan ahead for things that NO ONE - devs included - know, I will do so.

I suppose you put points into tumble back in mod 2, because you were planning ahead for mod 5 when they made falling damage based on tumble only.

Hell, even in this thread, it's unclear what weapon will work best with this... and we actually have info to work with here. Heck, it's not even clear whether THF or TWF will be the way to go.

So please, by all means, explain to me how someone should plan better. Or better yet, explain to me how you have done so to mitigate and/or avoid negative impacts to unknown future nerfs.

p.s. Nothing says you have to take advantage of skill respecs or GS deconstruction.

[Milolyen]

I agee that critical rage 2 was a mistake but thier are so many other mistakes (increasing attack miodifers instead of declining, tempest, blanket immunites, icey raniements, inflated hit points, inflated ACs, whackey AI, etc).

Also the quests are disigned with some of these mistakes in mind so it mucks up the real CRs of level appropriate quests both existing and new content. I am sure if the game had launched with a solid level 20 in mind it would have been a lot diffrent than where we are now. I am not convinced that "fixing" it at this point won't break it more than it already is ethier.


Increasing attack modifiers was kind of a must. (correct me if I am wrong) A "round" in pnp is supposed to last 6 seconds. A BAB of 0 - 4 gets 1 attack per round (could anyone in an mmo world put up with that slow of a fight?) then 5 - 9 get 2 attacks per round (1 attack every 3 seconds still way to slow), 10 - 15 get 3 attacks (getting better) 16 - 20 gets 4 attacks per round (game would not have made it to this point with how boring the fighting would be). Even if you reduced it to 3 seconds = 1 round would start out a bit slow and then at higher levels would be a bit fast. No the fighting had to change for the conversion to an action MMO like this. Now the designers are faced with well since rounds last different lenghts of time we need to give a bonus to those with a higher BaB because it would be better to just make the first attack then let it reset. No I think they did a good job with the combat with the exception of the different animation times and the later attacks takeing mabye a touch to long.

Tempest ... I will agree is a bit overpowered and prolly should have been planed as a 5, 10, 15 progression but we don't know what is in store for the rest of tempest yet.

Blanket Immunities ... what we are allowed to have them and mobs can't? Currently my ranger is immune to fear, poison, disease, blindness and has deathblock and mobs are not allowed to wear a deathblock item or have other items that would make them immune to things? :rolleyes:

Icey ragnments ... would not have been so bad if it was a +3 dodge bonus which would not have stacked with the chattering ring, but yes is a bit much that it currently stacks with the other dodge bonuses.

Inflated hit points ... again this is an MMO and not a table top game with the change to make the combat more fun they had to give mobs hps to make them last longer.

Inflated AC's ... on what us or the mobs or both? I would say both but you have to provide bonuses to players and mobs in an MMO setting. If your char only got one upgrade every month how long would you continue to play? Cause any more than an average of one upgrade every month would quickly get us to the point where we are.

AI ... only so much can be done there as that is a big part. Any change has to be tested a lot ... just because mobs in quest A improve greatly because of this AI change it could very easily effect mobs in quest T in a VERY bad way meanwhile you have to test quests B - S just to find it in T.

I will agree with you I don't think it was planned all the way to 20 very well from the start. Also an issue is with the changes made in programmers at turbine ... there have been many that left and many that have replaced them. Being a programmer myself I find it a lot easier to plan and program something from start to finish. Takeing over someone elses program is always hard because the former programmer will have had different ideas than I do and I will also want to go in my own direction with it as well as trying to fix some of the "issues" the previous person left me with.

Milolyen

[boldarblood]

All the 2 weapon barbs get to waste feats on power attack and cleave? What a joke.

What the real joke is any barbarian w/out power attack. :P

[Ilundel]

Actually, this enhancement makes TWF'ing even better, damage wise. That's the disappointing thing. It was mentioned that this would favor the THF'er, but it does the opposite. 15-20/x4, or 17-20/x5 criticals in each hand is all that needs to be said.

You are right, it does, but it demands you take cleave, demands you take power attack enhancements and demands you take damage boosts. Most two weapon wielding barbarians will have to make a choice between cleave, or oversize two weapon. Thus will have to get an additionnal -3/-5 to hit while on Power attack. That will lower DPS as compared to having crit rage 2 with no requirements for such feats/enhancements (cleave and power attack enhancement that is).

[Wizzly_Bear]

{snip}
Kist, no hard feelings, but you're way off here.


So please, by all means, explain to me how someone should plan better. Or better yet, explain to me how you have done so to mitigate and/or avoid negative impacts to unknown future nerf.
qft

[Thanimal]

We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.

EDIT!! See my next post first. My math here is bad. Read Borror's response and my response. Looks like Eladrin's proposal is fine with me!

I certainly agree with the overwhelming sentiment that dual-rapier-weilding Barbarians are thematically horrible. I think it is critical (pun sorta intended) to prevent that.

But I don't think your solution proposed above makes a lot of sense, nor does it fully solve the problem. The problem is that *adding* to either the crit range or the crit multiplier affects different weapons in different ways. It used to be that Picks were the best Barb DPS weapon because expanding their crit range by 2 was equivalent to doubling it. It thus got a relatively larger increase from the enhancement than other weapons. With this on-the-drawing-board enhancement, the exact same problem exists, except that now the way to double it is to make sure you use a x2 weapon. Thus Barbarians who have done the math would *only* use Falchions, Scimitars, and Rapiers.

The right way to address this problem is not with a further hack, but by causing the enhancement to improve ALL weapons equally. This is easy to do: just make the enhancement be a FACTOR, not an addend.

For example, the first enhancement might multiply the critical multiplier by 1.5 (e.g. x2 becomes x3 and x3 becomes x4.5), and the second by 2.0 (e.g. x2 becomes x4 and x3 becomes x6). These numbers may be a touch too large, but are only for example. The key is to MULTIPLY, which maintains the DPS relationships between weapons, NOT ADD, which arbitrarily reorders them.

This would mean no sissy weapons for Barbs AND make sure that Barbs have all the same weapon decisions to make as other classes, rather than being ram-rodded into the ones that are the most advantaged by wacky additive bonuses.

Them's my 2 cents! Hope it helps.

[Strakeln]

I certainly agree with the overwhelming sentiment that dual-rapier-weilding Barbarians are thematically horrible. I think it is critical (pun sorta intended) to prevent that.

But I don't think your solution proposed above makes a lot of sense, nor does it fully solve the problem. The problem is that *adding* to either the crit range or the crit multiplier affects different weapons in different ways. It used to be that Picks were the best Barb DPS weapon because expanding their crit range by 2 was equivalent to doubling it. It thus got a relatively larger increase from the enhancement than other weapons. With this on-the-drawing-board enhancement, the exact same problem exists, except that now the way to double it is to make sure you use a x2 weapon. Thus Barbarians who have done the math would *only* use Falchions, Scimitars, and Rapiers.

The right way to address this problem is not with a further hack, but by causing the enhancement to improve ALL weapons equally. This is easy to do: just make the enhancement be a FACTOR, not an addend.

For example, the first enhancement might multiply the critical multiplier by 1.5 (e.g. x2 becomes x3 and x3 becomes x4.5), and the second by 2.0 (e.g. x2 becomes x4 and x3 becomes x6). These numbers may be a touch too large, but are only for example. The key is to MULTIPLY, which maintains the DPS relationships between weapons, NOT ADD, which arbitrarily reorders them.

This would mean no sissy weapons for Barbs AND make sure that Barbs have all the same weapon decisions to make as other classes, rather than being ram-rodded into the ones that are the most advantaged by wacky additive bonuses.

Them's my 2 cents! Hope it helps.While I don't like the overall idea, this seems like a pretty reasonable compromise.

[Angelus_dead]

Finally, if you are going to implement as is, can you look into the variations in swing speed for cleave based on fighting style?? Cleave is VERY slow with both two weapon and two handed weapons. It slows you down to use cleave to a point where you could have swung twice while you completed a cleave
Cleave takes 150 milliseconds regardless your weapon style. That is enough time to make 3 regular swings (which means 6 attacks for a TWF).

[Wizzly_Bear]

Cleave takes 150 milliseconds regardless your weapon style. That is enough time to make 3 regular swings (which means 6 attacks for a TWF).
takes longer for a human to cleave

[sephiroth1084]

I realize that the Improved crit multipliers and extra effects on glancing blows make up for this to some degree, but I'm kind of dissapointed that there is no mention of at least Improved Power Attack. I could see where Supreme Power Attack would possibly be a bit overboard, but those improvements allowed a Frenzied Berzerker to get a realiable improvement in damage even when it was not a good time to use frenzy.

I do think Viscious is a brilliant soulution for the issue of Frenzy, but I would like to see something for the times where you really can't afford the damage. It would also really give something reliable to THF Barbarians that are wary of the HP cost and are questioning the tradeoff of +2 Crit multiplier and extra glancing blow damage vs. +2 Crit Range.

I agree, and this might be a way to pull people into THF vs. TWF: Improved Power Attack, for -1 attack, +3 damage with a 2-hander. Just leave of the other part of the ability that has an effect with 1-handed weapons.

I'd also like to see effects tacked onto the frenzy ability such as:
-A +5 to 10% bonus to attack speed (Frenzy adds an extra attack)

-Improved Power Attack (2-handers only)

-Have the glancing blows improvement work only when frenzied

-Bonus on Intimidate (how did this NOT make it into the chalkboard version?!)

-Simulate Deathless Frenzy by mimicking the new cleric capstone: While frenzied, if you would drop below -9 HP, you instead are reduced to 1 HP and your frenzy ends.

[Borror0]

But I don't think your solution proposed above makes a lot of sense, nor does it fully solve the problem. The problem is that *adding* to either the crit range or the crit multiplier affects different weapons in different ways.
The modification that Eladrin's looking into would actually benefit all weapons equally.

The numbers under are the critical power of the weapons.

Club:

Baseline:1.05
Currently: 1.15
Suggested: 1.25

Sword:

Baseline: 1.15
Currently: 1.25
Suggested: 1.35

Axe:

Baseline: 1.15
Currently: 1.45
Suggested: 1.35

Rapier:

Baseline: 1.25
Currently: 1.35
Suggested:1.45

Pick:

Baseline: 1.25
Currently: 1.55
Suggested: 1.45

Khopesh:

Baseline: 1.35
Currently: 1.55
Suggested: 1.55

SOS:

Baseline: 1.55
Currently: 1.75
Suggested: 1.75

Deathnip:

Baseline: 1.55
Currently: 1.85
Suggested: 1.75

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Actually, this enhancement makes TWF'ing even better, damage wise. That's the disappointing thing. It was mentioned that this would favor the THF'er, but it does the opposite. 15-20/x4, or 17-20/x5 criticals in each hand is all that needs to be said.

Yeah, this is what Im not understanding.

THF are still gonna be behind...they're still gonna be screwed in the end.

[Mhykke]

You are right, it does, but it demands you take cleave, demands you take power attack enhancements and demands you take damage boosts. Most two weapon wielding barbarians will have to make a choice between cleave, or oversize two weapon. Thus will have to get an additionnal -3/-5 to hit while on Power attack. That will lower DPS as compared to having crit rage 2 with no requirements for such feats/enhancements (cleave and power attack enhancement that is).

You're forgetting we get another feat at 18, when we can take the 3rd level of frenzied berzerker. Good timing.

Won't have to choose b/w anything. And the 1 feat requirement is a pittance compared to the requirement for tempest. Power attack enhancements they're already going to have, as I'm guessing a few have damage boost. Those 2 enhancements are hardly hurtful.

[lord_of_rage]

You are right, it does, but it demands you take cleave, demands you take power attack enhancements and demands you take damage boosts. Most two weapon wielding barbarians will have to make a choice between cleave, or oversize two weapon. Thus will have to get an additionnal -3/-5 to hit while on Power attack. That will lower DPS as compared to having crit rage 2 with no requirements for such feats/enhancements (cleave and power attack enhancement that is).

I splash 2 ftr lvls into my barbs, and never take ostwf because even on leet buffed up I have found I dont need it. The bpod helps aswell. I always take power attack. So I respec a toughness feat and I am golden. I dont see this as too much of a problem and respecing crit rage 1-2 frees up 6 out of 8 aps minus those needed for the boosts.

[Mhykke]

Yeah, this is what Im not understanding.

THF are still gonna be behind...they're still gonna be screwed in the end.

Yep, it's sad.

[Borror0]

For example, the first enhancement might multiply the critical multiplier by 1.5 (e.g. x2 becomes x3 and x3 becomes x4.5), and the second by 2.0 (e.g. x2 becomes x4 and x3 becomes x6). These numbers may be a touch too large, but are only for example. The key is to MULTIPLY, which maintains the DPS relationships between weapons, NOT ADD, which arbitrarily reorders them.
It's a very complicated system. Even more so if their current system does not support decimals.

Plus, it is really hard to created anything progressive without an insane lead in DPS.

If you really want something benefiting equally to all weapons but find the 19-20 only suggestion a bit inelegant, a more elegant way to do it would be to simply add a bonus before multiplication, like Seeker currently does. It would benefit everyone equally to their base critical power. It would be easier to balance too.

[dragons1ayer74]

I don't want to start an argument but I think some of the where mis-communicated by me.


Increasing attack modifiers was kind of a must. (correct me if I am wrong) A "round" in pnp is supposed to last 6 seconds. A BAB of 0 - 4 gets 1 attack per round (could anyone in an mmo world put up with that slow of a fight?) then 5 - 9 get 2 attacks per round (1 attack every 3 seconds still way to slow), 10 - 15 get 3 attacks (getting better) 16 - 20 gets 4 attacks per round (game would not have made it to this point with how boring the fighting would be). Even if you reduced it to 3 seconds = 1 round would start out a bit slow and then at higher levels would be a bit fast. No the fighting had to change for the conversion to an action MMO like this. Now the designers are faced with well since rounds last different lenghts of time we need to give a bonus to those with a higher BaB because it would be better to just make the first attack then let it reset. No I think they did a good job with the combat with the exception of the different animation times and the later attacks takeing mabye a touch to long.

The diffrent animation speed is flat out horible it looks better for a sword to swing slower than an ax ***! Players beg for bark skin but really it looks better when you arn't wood boy. What I was refering to here was not how turns convert into game time obviously they had to make combat rounds faster than 6 seconds. I was refering to the base d20 systems gives your extra attacks a declining hit adjustment so your first attack is your good one and in DDO your 1st swing is your bad one. It effects the game in a lot of ways (THF/TWF/Pow Attack/CE/ACs) and was not properly balanced by the way they choose to implement it.



Blanket Immunities ... what we are allowed to have them and mobs can't? Currently my ranger is immune to fear, poison, disease, blindness and has deathblock and mobs are not allowed to wear a deathblock item or have other items that would make them immune to things? :rolleyes:

Oh I forgot your ranger is also immune to Hypnotise, Command, Stuning Blow, Knock down, Dance, etc.



Inflated hit points ... again this is an MMO and not a table top game with the change to make the combat more fun they had to give mobs hps to make them last longer.

But buy having a mechanism like con stat damage is a mistake as it makes other forms of combating these monsters less effective. And I do no belive any one likes fighting the trash mobs for extended periods of time.

[Angelus_dead]

If you really want something benefiting equally to all weapons but find the 19-20 only suggestion a bit inelegant, a more elegant way to do it would be to simply add a bonus before multiplication, like Seeker currently does. It would benefit everyone equally to their base critical power. It would be easier to balance too.
Seeker is biased towards weapons with a bigger threat range. That's because Seeker damage scales with crit mult, not with (crit mult-1) like strength and PA does.

For example, sword and axe have the same Critical Power. But across 20 attack rolls, Seeker 10 adds 4*2*10 = 80 damage to a sword, or 2*3*10 = 60 to an axe. (This difference is not enough to outweigh the loss of racial axe enhancements)

[Strakeln]

Cleave takes 150 milliseconds regardless your weapon style. That is enough time to make 3 regular swings (which means 6 attacks for a TWF).I don't believe this is correct.

Try a S&B cleave then put a two-handed weapon on and try it. The difference in speed is quite obvious.

[lord_of_rage]

We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.

I cant say I agree with that. Especially if it only applies to barbs. I say keep kopeshes, ect. at the crit range they have with imp crit. If not it means tempests and kenasi builds who now get a +1 threat range modifier all the time rather than just raged will be up on them again. Kenasi builds will be critting on a 14-20 with rapiers and barbs 19-20. That will hurt the barb quite a bit. So please dont change the threat range as proposed unless you intend to apply it to all classes.

[Borror0]

Seeker is biased towards weapons with a bigger threat range.
D'oh. Oh well, hehe

[Thanimal]

The modification that Eladrin's looking into would actually benefit all weapons equally.

Well I'll be darned!! Usually I'm pretty good about doing math before I make claims, but it seems here I did it wrong the first time. I think about this a little differently than you do, so here's an example that may help convince others see my error:

Without this enhancement, a longsword and a battle axe have the same expected value of criticals:
longsword: 20% * +100% = +20%
axe: 10% * +200% = +20%

With this enhancements, A longsword now has a x2 critical on a 17 and 18, and a x4 critical on a 19 and 20.

These means:
10% chance of +100% bonus damage
10% chance of +300% bonus damage
Expected value = 0.1 * 1 + 0.1 * 3 = 0.4 or +40% damage from criticals.

A battleaxe simply has a x5 critical multiplier on a 19 or 20.
10% change of +400% bonus damage = +40%

Another way to think about it is that the limited version of the enhancement would attack a flat +20% damage from criticals to all weapons, because it's always a 10% chance of tacking on +200%.

My apologies for interjecting incorrect figuring!!

[Angelus_dead]

I don't believe this is correct.
Try a S&B cleave then put a two-handed weapon on and try it. The difference in speed is quite obvious.
That's an illusion caused by the artwork. Some Cleave animations don't have enough frames to take up the full 150 ms, so you return to a neutral "running around" pose. But you can't make any attacks or other actions until the same time limit has expired. For purposes of combat effectiveness, the length is the same.

If you'd like to measure this, then count how many attacks you get in 30 seconds. Do it again but make one Cleave in the middle of your attacks; the result will be -3 fewer attacks.

PS. Oh wait, 3 attacks takes 200 ms (unhasted). Well, whatever, the point is that even if your Cleave animation is over, there's a delay before you can make normal attacks again.

[Borror0]

Kenasi builds will be critting on a 14-20 with rapiers and barbs 19-20.
Rapiers will be 15-18/x2 and 19-20/x4 for barbarians.

[Angelus_dead]

Rapiers will be 15-17/x2 and 18-20/x3 for barbarians.
I thought Eladrin had mentioned the possibility of restricting the bonus to apply to 19-20, not 18-20. In addition, since his original announcement had a +2 crit mult at FB3, it we could (at least) assume that's still in effect for the revision. Thus barbs might get 15-18/x2 19-20/x4 with their rapiers.

However, he didn't really give enough specifics for you to make any claims containing precise figures. All he said is that the bonus might be restricted to 19-20, but there was no clue about what the bonus would be. Since it's being restricted to a narrower threat range, it would make sense for the bonus amount to be increased from what was earlier proposed.

[Mhykke]

I thought Eladrin had mentioned the possibility of restricting the bonus to apply to 19-20, not 18-20. In addition, since his original announcement had a +2 crit mult at FB3, it we could (at least) assume that's still in effect for the revision. Thus barbs might get 15-18/x2 19-20/x4 with their rapiers.

However, he didn't really give enough specifics for you to make any claims containing precise figures. All he said is that the bonus might be restricted to 19-20, but there was no clue about what the bonus would be. Since it's being restricted to a narrower threat range, it would make sense for the bonus amount to be increased from what was earlier proposed.

That, would be nice.

[Strakeln]

That's an illusion caused by the artwork. Some Cleave animations don't have enough frames to take up the full 150 ms, so you return to a neutral "running around" pose. But you can't make any attacks or other actions until the same time limit has expired. For purposes of combat effectiveness, the length is the same.

If you'd like to measure this, then count how many attacks you get in 30 seconds. Do it again but make one Cleave in the middle of your attacks; the result will be -3 fewer attacks.

PS. Oh wait, 3 attacks takes 200 ms (unhasted). Well, whatever, the point is that even if your Cleave animation is over, there's a delay before you can make normal attacks again.I figured this would be what you would get at.

You may be right, but I think there is more to it. There seems to be even more of a gap in time between the cleave and the next swing for two-handed weapons.

[Borror0]

I thought Eladrin had mentioned the possibility of restricting the bonus to apply to 19-20, not 18-20. In addition, since his original announcement had a +2 crit mult at FB3, it we could (at least) assume that's still in effect for the revision. Thus barbs might get 15-18/x2 19-20/x4 with their rapiers.
Corrected.

[Strumpoo]

The modification that Eladrin's looking into would actually benefit all weapons equally.

The numbers under are the critical power of the weapons.

Club:

Baseline:1.05
Currently: 1.15
Suggested: 1.25

Sword:

Baseline: 1.15
Currently: 1.25
Suggested: 1.35

Axe:

Baseline: 1.15
Currently: 1.45
Suggested: 1.35

Rapier:

Baseline: 1.25
Currently: 1.35
Suggested:1.45

Pick:

Baseline: 1.25
Currently: 1.55
Suggested: 1.45

Khopesh:

Baseline: 1.35
Currently: 1.55
Suggested: 1.55

SOS:

Baseline: 1.55
Currently: 1.75
Suggested: 1.75

Deathnip:

Baseline: 1.55
Currently: 1.85
Suggested: 1.75


Why should the rapier have a higher crit damage rating than an axe or pick? that doesn't make sense..? What about hammers and mauls? I figure they come in light to the rapier as well?? :eek:

Bor - thanks for the numbers breakdown.


I still think the multiplier needs to be higher for THF, to make it more attractive as compared to TWF. Knowing what the glancing blow magic effect %tage will be would help greatly too...

[Borror0]

Why should the rapier have a higher crit damage rating than an axe or pick? that doesn't make sense..? What about hammers and mauls? I figure they come in light to the rapier as well?? :eek:
Hammers and Maul have the same result than Axes.

As to why they are higher, because it's the way D&D is. Rapiers are 18-20/x2, so it makes their critical power higher than the 19-20/x3 of axes.

[KaKa]

For clarification purposes only.
Will Crit rage no longer be trainable period? Or will Crit rage no longer be trainable Also?

The assumption, and mine as well is the whole grandfathered scenario. I guess we need one of those rare occurrences where the Devs reply and make things crystal clear.


Also I have a suggestion. With more monsters having fortification and the drop in amount of crits that actually go off with this enhancement. I suggest that for FB 3 it adds the ability to ignore 25% of the targets fortification on a crit. This way when you do roll that 20 there is less chance it will be negated by fortifaction.

[Balkas]

For clarification purposes only.
Will Crit rage no longer be trainable period? Or will Crit rage no longer be trainable Also?

You won't be able to train it anymore.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

For clarification purposes only.
Will Crit rage no longer be trainable period? Or will Crit rage no longer be trainable Also?

The assumption, and mine as well is the whole grandfathered scenario. I guess we need one of those rare occurrences where the Devs reply and make things crystal clear.


Also I have a suggestion. With more monsters having fortification and the drop in amount of crits that actually go off with this enhancement. I suggest that for FB 3 it adds the ability to ignore 25% of the targets fortification on a crit. This way when you do roll that 20 there is less chance it will be negated by fortifaction.

If you have Crit Rage now, you'll keep it. But you wont be able to respec your barb, because crit rage will be gone. You also wont be able to get the new barb enhancements, as discussed in this thread, because your crit rage I & II will be your equivelant.

If you do respec, and i assume it means respec period, you'll be able to pick up bezerker but will never again be able to acquire crit rage.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.

Rather than limit it to certain rolls, which for example continues to hurt the falchion that you agree is appropriate to Barbs, how about limitting it to THF :D, that seems thematically the best. Or at the least... only "non finessable" weapons so they are good brute force weapons.

[nbhs275]

Hammers and Maul have the same result than Axes.

As to why they are higher, because it's the way D&D is. Rapiers are 18-20/x2, so it makes their critical power higher than the 19-20/x3 of axes.

Now, the question becomes if the higher elemental damage from weapons that crit for x5 and x6 will end up factoring in any major way. If the rapier is getting 3d10 acid against say harry, hes most likely going to ignore it, but on an pick, 5d10 is likely to get 5-10 damage past. Not a huge difference either way, but could have some results.

Hell, why not just increase the dice on high multiplier elemental effects? instead of it being 1d10, 2d10, 3d10, 4d10, 5d10, why not have the scale jump when it passes x4(say from 3d10 at x4, to 5d10 at x5 and 7d10 at x6)

[Borror0]

Hell, why not just increase the dice on high multiplier elemental effects? instead of it being 1d10, 2d10, 3d10, 4d10, 5d10, why not have the scale jump when it passes x4(say from 3d10 at x4, to 5d10 at x5 and 7d10 at x6)
Why do that?

[Ilundel]

Cleave takes 150 milliseconds regardless your weapon style. That is enough time to make 3 regular swings (which means 6 attacks for a TWF).

BTW - it doesn't - S&B swing cleave MUCH faster then two weapon or two handed and you can start swigning as soon as you are done with the animation
and yeah, 3 attacks for a two handed ain't such a waste, althought it might get there with the improvements to glancing blows, but it sure is a waste for two weapon wielders... hence the waste of a feat you can't really waste as a two weapon barbarian.

[BlackSteel]

We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.

a reasonable and thematically appropriate approach would be to have:

light finessable weapons only recieve the benefit on a 20
regular sized one handers recieve the crit multiplier on 19 and 20
and large two handers get it on 18, 19, and 20

[lord_of_rage]

Rapiers will be 15-18/x2 and 19-20/x4 for barbarians.

that isnt as bad but still hindering barbs a bit compared to kenasi.

[nbhs275]

Why do that?

if a rapier becomes 15-20/x4, your looking at 18d10 elemental dice, compared to a pick which would be 19-20/x6 for 10d10. Though if you increased them like i proposed it would be 14d10 for the picks, narrowing the gap slightly.

just an idea

[tihocan]

So, we had an initial proposal that had some serious drawbacks (incentive to re-craft items, or to re-roll some specific builds), but that at least was giving a significant increase in DPS.
Now, we got a modified version, with the same drawbacks, but without the nice DPS boost.
Can someone explain to me how we can be happy about this?

[Angelus_dead]

Now, we got a modified version, with the same drawbacks, but without the nice DPS boost.
Can someone explain to me how we can be happy about this?
Wrong. We don't have a modified version.

If you disagree, then go ahead and link to where you think it is. Or better yet, type it into a post.

[tihocan]

Wrong. We don't have a modified version.

If you disagree, then go ahead and link to where you think it is. Or better yet, type it into a post.
What I would like to type into a post would derail this discussion.

[Angelus_dead]

What I would like to type into a post would derail this discussion.
You already attempted to derail the discussion when you made an unfounded complaint with no basis in what has been announced.

If you feel you can support your complaint with some reference to developer statements, please go ahead.

My suspicion is that you saw this comment and then misinterpreted what it actually means:


We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.

[QuantumFX]

We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.

If the 19-20 thing doesn't pan out for you you could always do add x2/x4 to the crit multiplier on a natural 20. It would result in better DPS when DR is involved and some ingame epeen waiving but you might be able to save yourself a step by not having to write another trigger from scratch. /shrug

[Junts]

If the 19-20 thing doesn't pan out for you you could always do add x2/x4 to the crit multiplier on a natural 20. It would result in better DPS when DR is involved and some ingame epeen waiving but you might be able to save yourself a step by not having to write another trigger from scratch. /shrug

i actually like this, make fb2 have the equivalent of a passive critrange blast on a nat 20, that would help axes and picks tremendously

[kruggar]

how about limiting the 19-20 range of increased multiplier for one-handed weapons..

let the barbarians use falchions, greatswords and greataxes as they are expected to use and limit weapons not barbarian flavored like rapiers and kukris

[Lorien_the_First_One]

You are right, it does, but it demands you take cleave, demands you take power attack enhancements and demands you take damage boosts. Most two weapon wielding barbarians will have to make a choice between cleave, or oversize two weapon. Thus will have to get an additionnal -3/-5 to hit while on Power attack. That will lower DPS as compared to having crit rage 2 with no requirements for such feats/enhancements (cleave and power attack enhancement that is).

Don't forget, we will get another feat before cap...

[Samadhi]

This is so horrible, in so many ways, I don't even know where to start

[krud]

OK, i've got some updated numbers presented in a different format than others have posted so you can compare the old crit rage and the new enhancements.

edit - I arrived at these values by first calculating the number of times damage is dealt from 1-20 (e.g. a rapier with no enhancement deals 1x damage on rolls of 2-14, and 2x damage from 15-20, for a total of 1x(13) + 2x(6) = 25x damage). Divide this by 20 gives the average times damage is dealt per swing (e.g. 25x/20 = 1.25x damage per swing). Multiply this by base damage (in this case I only used weapon damage + str bonus + PA bonus) to get average damage per swing. Feel free to flame me if you feel this method is flawed.

Here is the average damage per swing for various weapons. You can always get dps by multiplying this value by your attack rate/60sec. I didn't figure offhand values for TWF, or glancing blows for THF.

Assumes 40str, power attack, PAIII, +5 vanilla weapon, all crits confirmed, and 2-20 = hit


damage/swing rapier khopesh pick daxe gsword gaxe falchion

no enhancement 39.4 43.9 39.4 38.5 58.1 57.5 60.6

crit rage 2
+2 crit range 42.5 50.4 48.8 45.2 63.1 67.5 65.5

frenz barb 3
+2 crit multip 58.3 56.9 45.7 45.2 78.3 67.5 89.7
19,20 only 45.7 50.4 45.7 45.2 68.2 67.5 70.3


FB3 seems to greatly favor the large crit range weapons much more than before. Limiting the effects to 19,20 would bring everything close to what we currently are getting with barb crit rage 2.

[Darth_Sizzle]

I'm really surprised that Great Cleave isn't required before getting the equivalent of whirlwind...

I think the best possible compromise would be to have FB II add 1 to the multiplier, then have FB III add 1 to the range.

At this point I'm just glad I never rolled a Greataxe wielding Barbarian...

I guess the Sword of Shadow will reign supreme again?

[nbhs275]

I'm really surprised that Great Cleave isn't required before getting the equivalent of whirlwind...

I think the best possible compromise would be to have FB II add 1 to the multiplier, then have FB III add 1 to the range.

At this point I'm just glad I never rolled a Greataxe wielding Barbarian...

I guess the Sword of Shadow will reign supreme again?

well, i wouldnt count greataxes out. IF used in conjunction with autocrit effects, it could be devistating. Either weighted which could go off on glancing blows(along with stunning blow of course) or an earthgrab weapon(yet again, possibly proccing on glancing blows)

The only real thing we arent able to do right now is provide some sort of healing on-hit effects, other then the choasblade.

[Kistilan]

Kist, no hard feelings, but you're way off here.

In a normal D&D game you wouldn't be allowed to respec your skills.

Anyway, I stand by my resolve that unless they create NEW skills, there's no reason to have a respec.

HOWEVER -- greensteel items I could see getting a deconstruction with a chance of lost materials (rolled by percentile up to 50% lost). This would allow you the chance to do this.

Another Turbine Legacy: Embued Item Crafting in Asheron's Call. Much like the grind you all go through these days through a technique called salvaging. Anyway, once you got 100 parts (a full bag) of an embuement item, say black opal, you could imbue it for critical strike on a weapon or casting implement. Now, magical item crafting had 1 quirk -- if you had the best possible skill, there was still only a 33% chance of it being successful!!! 33%! Did the players complain?

NOPE.

They farmed more.

PS: I forgot the important part. 33% for imbuement was the chance of success. Failure lost you the farmed components and the awesome weapon or casting implement you were attempting to imbue. At least you don't lose things when you craft in DDO.

I'm way off base? :rolleyes: I think you don't realize how much you want your greensteel items.

[Angelus_dead]

In a normal D&D game you wouldn't be allowed to respec your skills.
As has been repeated explained to you recently, that's simply not true.

For your education, I shall type in the relevant section of D&D 3.5 Edition Player's Handbook II (page 194). You can get that book yourself and read the rest of the chapter for rules on respecing other character choices, plus the reasons why the DM should allow it.
---------------------------------------------------------
SKILL RETRAINING
Some skills that are particularly valuable at lower levels become less useful later on, and vice versa. For example, when everyone in the party is carrying a bag full of antitoxins and potions of cure light wounds, the need for successful Heal checks drops dramatically. Whether your character has skill ranks that aren't as necessary as they once were, or you just want to adapt her to new challenges, skill retraining provides a simple method of adjusting your character's capabilities in a small but measurable way.

The Process
Subtract up to 4 skill ranks from one skill and add an equal number of ranks to any other skill (not including Speak Language). The skill to which you add the ranks must be a class skill for one of your character's classes, including a class he is about to gain with his current level increase. It doesn't matter whether the lost ranks were purchased as class skills or cross-class skills.
Example: You decide to give your 2nd-level ranger a level of the rogue class as his third character level. At this point, he could use the skill retraining option to lose 4 ranks in Handle Animal that he purchased with his ranger skill points and gain 4 ranks in any other ranger or rogue class skill (such as Survival or Disable Device). He couldn't gain ranks in any skill that isn't either on the ranger or rogue class skill list (such as Spellcraft)
-----------------

There. Now you know the D&D rules on this topic.

[krud]

The Process
Subtract up to 4 skill ranks from one skill and add an equal number of ranks to any other skill (not including Speak Language). The skill to which you add the ranks must be a class skill for one of your character's classes, including a class he is about to gain with his current level increase. It doesn't matter whether the lost ranks were purchased as class skills or cross-class skills.


wow, that could really be abused in DDO. A full skill respec from level 1 up, including all INT tomes used, would be better compared to that method.

[Angelus_dead]

wow, that could really be abused in DDO. A full skill respec from level 1 up, including all INT tomes used would be better compared to that method.
Yes, that rule is too generous because it lets you swap ranks into class skills, even if the class in question didn't give enough skills per level to get what you need.

However, the reason D&D has such a simple rule is because it'd be kind of hard to keep track of all the levels you have and how many skill points were in-class and cross-class at each one. But in a computer-controlled world of DDO, tracking that information should be trivial. (I've heard that DDO didn't record the choices made during level-up, which is an idiotic mistake, but it still should be trivial)

[Mhykke]

In a normal D&D game you wouldn't be allowed to respec your skills.



You argument is faulty b/c it's based on a faulty premise.

Normal D&D is a published game. Rules are put in print. Groups that play it are varied, and individual. When new rules come out, some groups use the new rulesets, some continue with the previously published set.

All of that is not true in DDO. All it takes for a rule change in DDO is a change of the code. We all play it, nobody has the option of using the old ruleset if they don't like new changes.

PnP does not equal DDO. We should accept the reality of that.

[Whargoul]

Regardless of which way the devs go regarding when the increased multiplier is applied, there is one situation where I believe it should always apply... autocrits. I am concerned because I still see dice rolls during autocrits, and that the multiplier may be hardwired to the die-roll. I know it seems obvious that it should apply during autocrits, but we just don't know how it will be implemented.

-Whargoul

Sarlona: Bottles, Kungfu, Devilride, Robotdevil, Bladebarian

[Forceonature]

I'm not to happy with taking damage while using my weapons. I already have a hard enough time keeping my level 16 WF healthy, I don't need a further reason for Clerics to be dissatisfied with healing a WF Barbarian.

Why don't they just make two different enhancement lines, one for two-handed, one for two-weapon:

1) THF line: keep the existing Critical Rage enhancements, but make the Improved THF feat, PA, etc. a requirement for the enhancement.

2) TWF/S&B/Ranged line: increase the crit multiplier instead of crit range.

Please get rid of the "costs X hit points" features, unless you plan to add a self-healing ability or offer better repair/heal potions.

[lord_of_rage]

how about limiting the 19-20 range of increased multiplier for one-handed weapons..

let the barbarians use falchions, greatswords and greataxes as they are expected to use and limit weapons not barbarian flavored like rapiers and kukris

I vehemently disagree here. Never has it been stated that barbarians are THF only. Yes rapiers arnt "barb flavored" but to say well because of this you cant use one handed weapons????. That is just off base and would ruin alot of builds. Soulrage has his raid loot dual min2 picks......... should people like us be punished? That just seems lame

[sephiroth1084]

I vehemently disagree here. Never has it been stated that barbarians are THF only. Yes rapiers arnt "barb flavored" but to say well because of this you cant use one handed weapons????. That is just off base and would ruin alot of builds. Soulrage has his raid loot dual min2 picks......... should people like us be punished? That just seems lame

While I feel that toothPicks are out of flavor, there is Caramon Majere for a barbarian-type figure who uses the wee weapons popularly. Game balance aside, this is still a game of experimentation and options. Arbitrarily limiting those options is not something I'd favor.

Sticking those puny picks up that sissy-weapon wielding barbarian's waste-chute I can get behind though.

Wow, that was all kinds of wrong!

[EightyFour]

Well from what I can tell, with two rapiers you get an additional .9 damage per second or 55 extra damage per minute. With the Frenzy, could be useful, depending on how long it lasts, is 3 extra damage per second or 190 extra damage per minute.

But for that damage boost you would take at a guess here, 180 swings per minute * average the damage to 2 = 360 damage per minute. Plus any damage you take from being hit so often.

On the other side of things, the extra crit. range gives you so many more benefits. Personally I would think it would be more appealing if the damage was more around 1 point of damage per hit or maybe even taking out the damage effect all together. But even this I don't think would make this more appealing to me.

Also would there be a way to grandfather in the character, so maybe you couldn't reroll them, but maybe you could respec your enhancements or change out feats that may cause an automatic enhancement respec without losing the crit range ability. As I see it now, I'm basically going to make sure all my enhancements and feats are in order so I never have to respec again if this is the case.

I see if this game is trying to be moved more to a damaged based game rather than other methods, than this would be a good start. However it doesn't appeal to me like the way things are now.

However I would just like to add also, that in other posts I have said that I don't like the capstones because they are exclusive to level 20, with the release of kensi and this, I can see that those that took a level or 2 of something are not being left out. So I would just like to say thank you for these ability's that can be taken at many different levels.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Here's the brutal killer of... well... just about everything (including itself), the damage dealing class that just doesn't know when to stop, the Frenzied Berserker!.


God I love that line! It sums up my thoughts about most Brbs in DDO. :)

Good way to address certain complaints from both sides about crit rage.

Those who have already can keep (if they don't reset enhancments) And actually ccrit rage is still around in another form, just very expensive to get now....and seems much more Barbarian like IMO.

This does sorta kill by lowbie Bowbarian.....but maybe not actually. The Crits are still there at the same lvls if I read this right. (Edit: I didn't rad this right :) ) Just more expensive to acquire.

Kudo's for fixing something without totally taking away or killing completely someones established build.

[Strumpoo]

But for that damage boost you would take at a guess here, 180 swings per minute * average the damage to 2 = 360 damage per minute. Plus any damage you take from being hit so often.



This is the MOST negative thing about this enhancement.

This is what is going to cut barbarian's survivability rate in half.

There are no clerics/repairing arcanes who are going to keep up with type of damage when added to the damage from the mobs themselves...

I am sorry but this is ****.

Yes we will have mass heal. What will the mana cost of that be? How many times will a cleric be able to cast it? Will it be enough? I don't think so...

A reconstruct scroll usually repairs for 110-120. That doesn't go very far in terms of fixing that amount of damage. And it is on a timer. not many arcanes are willing to spec into full Forged healing mode.

Horrible..

[Wizzly_Bear]

In a normal D&D game you wouldn't be allowed to respec your skills.
wrong


You argument is faulty b/c it's based on a faulty premise.

Normal D&D is a published game. Rules are put in print. Groups that play it are varied, and individual. When new rules come out, some groups use the new rulesets, some continue with the previously published set.

All of that is not true in DDO. All it takes for a rule change in DDO is a change of the code. We all play it, nobody has the option of using the old ruleset if they don't like new changes.

PnP does not equal DDO. We should accept the reality of that.
qft

In normal DnD you know the rules ahead of time and they are generally stable. When they change (due to house rules almost exclusively) you are given the tools to adjust to such changes within the rules of the game. Heck, you can even change races and classes in the RAW. I don't think that asking for the ability to adapt to unforeseen changes devised and implemented by Turbine without our knowledge or consent is too much to ask.

Besides....

Changing stuff = some ruined characters.

Ruined characters = some unhappy paying players

Unhappy paying players = more paying players who either quit, or who become disgruntled rerolls who scare off newbs

which = fewer subs = less money = bad business

By allowing people to adapt to the changes, you will have fewer upset people.

[degroos]

This move totally gimps my ranger who would have used mulishot deepwoodsniper while critically raged. Barb rangers are not nearly as viable as they once were.

[moorewr]

This move totally gimps my ranger who would have used mulishot deepwoodsniper while critically raged. Barb rangers are not nearly as viable as they once were.

This is a case where Turbine DID listen.. they aren't taking crit rage away from characters that have it.. as long as you don't respec.

Also, those who don't like the vicious aspect.. heck as a cleric I am concerned enough to think I will need to turn empower healing on more of the time but it is ONE PrE for barbarians, not the core class or the only path available to them.. and it is very much in keeping with the idea of a frenzied berserker.

[Artagon]

Look people, have you even THOUGHT about the other prestige lines they will put out for barbarian? Everyone is acting like this is going to be the only way you can go, and it's a complete nerf. Is it so hard to imagine them putting out another prestige line that is more speed/accuracy based, or based on the legendary toughness of barbarians? I for one hold off on judgement until I've seen all of the lines. As it stands, I see it as a wonderfully thematic prestige line, and can't wait to see how cool the other lines will be as well.

[Strumpoo]

This move totally gimps my ranger who would have used mulishot deepwoodsniper while critically raged. Barb rangers are not nearly as viable as they once were.

Well the good news is that if you hurry and level him and NEVER respec him again, you can use the crit rage II.

I know that isn't much consolation...

[Wizzly_Bear]

Well the good news is that if you hurry and level him and NEVER respec him again, you can use the crit rage II.

I know that isn't much consolation...
I'm guessing we're still at least a month away from mod 9 so there is no need to hurry. Should be able to easily cap before the mod hits if you want to still get crit rage 2. I don't like them changing it (not b/c i thought it was a great idea in the first place, but b/c i think the old should stay the way it is (except for fixes of course)), but this is one time where they made a change and actually gave us the ability to adjust to it beforehand.

I say boo to changing, yay to giving us forwarning.

[moorewr]

Well the good news is that if you hurry and level him and NEVER respec him again, you can use the crit rage II.

I know that isn't much consolation...

Also, it begs the question whether that build was ever balanced for DDO (let alone D&D).. Barb/Rangers still have some nice synergies, but Crit Rage was always open to abuse/min-maxing. It is healthier for the game to correct this than to force people to play TWF rapier barbs to compete.

[Strumpoo]

Also, it begs the question whether that build was ever balanced for DDO (let alone D&D).. Barb/Rangers still have some nice synergies, but Crit Rage was always open to abuse/min-maxing. It is healthier for the game to correct this than to force people to play TWF rapier barbs to compete.


Are you saying that RANGED barbs are overpowered? RANGED?? In this game? :D

sorry man, I think the TWF are the ones overpowered not the ranged barbs.

[moorewr]

Are you saying that RANGED barbs are overpowered? RANGED?? In this game? :D

sorry man, I think the TWF are the ones overpowered not the ranged barbs.

Where did I say ranged? I said Rangers. As in dual-WoP Rapier Tempest Barbs.. I think they're sissies.. :p

[Strumpoo]

Where did I say ranged? I said Rangers. As in dual-WoP Rapier Tempest Barbs.. I think they're sissies.. :p

well he was talking about his deepwoods sniper barb build. To me that is a ranged character. :D


Another thing I have thought of that is very negative for the frenzied berserker is that cleave feat itself.

Cleave for all its extra damage goodness, slows down your attacks. That is bad. But the biggest negative is the interruption of your combat feats. Ever try to cleave and then stunning blow something? It doesn't work well. Something doesn't trigger correctly, especially when using the "click and hold mouse button" to attack.

I actually ditched cleave on my barb for this very reason. My success rate on trips and stunning blows was cut by at least 50% when using cleave. got rid of it and my success rate went right back up.

Another negative in my mind, since in order to get the big damage you are going to be forced to use slow, stinky, cleave.

[moorewr]

Another thing I have thought of that is very negative for the frenzied berserker is that cleave feat itself.

Cleave for all its extra damage goodness, slows down your attacks. That is bad. But the biggest negative is the interruption of your combat feats. Ever try to cleave and then stunning blow something? It doesn't work well. Something doesn't trigger correctly, especially when using the "click and hold mouse button" to attack.

I actually ditched cleave on my barb for this very reason. My success rate on trips and stunning blows was cut by at least 50% when using cleave. got rid of it and my success rate went right back up.

Another negative in my mind, since in order to get the big damage you are going to be forced to use slow, stinky, cleave.

What is it you want? A mass-effect melee attack that doesn't slow down your attack chain? Cleave/Great Cleave Whirlwind are for attacking groups of enemies... why would you interrupt your attacks on a single opponent to use it?

[Thanimal]

a reasonable and thematically appropriate approach would be to have:

light finessable weapons only recieve the benefit on a 20
regular sized one handers recieve the crit multiplier on 19 and 20
and large two handers get it on 18, 19, and 20

At first glance, I think I like this proposal the best so far. This doesn't completely ramrod a Barbarian into being THF (I don't think -- maybe I'm wrong), but it does provide much more incentive to head toward "thematically logical" paths. Possibly the best of both worlds??

[Angelus_dead]

There are no clerics/repairing arcanes who are going to keep up with type of damage when added to the damage from the mobs themselves...
Warning, insanely long BOE ahead. I probably shouldn't even post this, because nobody will have the time to read it.

How much damage does double-frenzy add to your output and input?
Ok, first off, the berserker already has +2 crit mult with no self-harm. That's a DPS boost there. But when he does turn on the full double Frenzy, that hurts him for 4 damage per hit, and increases his attacks by around 30 per swing. In one minute he gets about 110 attacks, which means the frenzy added 3300 damage to the monster and took 450 from the player. We can make a simple ratio of damage output:input of 3300/450 = ~7.5.

How much can a cleric heal for?
A cleric's Heal does ~340 hp for 35 sp, and that same sp could also Harm the boss for 285 damage. So, one fun way to look at it: a cleric could use 35 sp to inflict 285 damage directly (8.14 damage per mana), or he could give 340 hp to a Frenzied Berserker, who then convers it into 340 * 7.5 = 2550 damage (72 dpm). So using cleric mana to fuel Frenzy is 72/8 = 9 times as good as using it to damage a boss. Most spells don't get that dpm.


Normal vs Boss fights
However, it's totally true that for a barb to suffer 450 hp/min in normal combat is unacceptable, which is why double-frenzy should only be used for fighting a dangerous boss, where you already know the berserker will be taking a lot of damage anyway. The idea is for self-damage to be taken care of by overflow from the healing he'd get anyway. Consider a large boss who does 60/hit and attacks 25 times per minute. That's 1500 damage the barb will take, meaning he'll need 5 direct Heals to get through it. The frenzy damage does 440 over the same time, equivalent to adding 440/25 = 17 damage to each boss hit.

So in that situation, you can look at double frenzy as if it subtracted 17 from the character's DR.

Anyhow, the Frenzied barb takes 1950 per minute and inflicts about 16,500. If he's non-frenzied he takes 1500 and does 13,200. The ratio of output/input damage is 8.46 Frenzied and 8.8 non-Frenzied. That does look like a bad number. The damage the deals has increased by 25%, but the damage he takes went up 30%.

If the fight was a one-on-one slugfest, then activating Frenzies would make you more likely to lose. It would increase the chance that your cleric runs out of mana before the boss runs out of hp. But in reality, there are probably more than 2 characters in melee. There are probably 3-8 other players fighting the boss at the same time, and getting cleave and blasted by him.


Alongside other melee combatants
Assuming that the other 3 players each do the same DPS as a non-frenzied barb, then activating dual frenzy increases your party's DPS by 6.25%. That reduces the boss's lifespan by 6%, which directly means a 6% reduction in the time he had to DPS your group, and the total hitpoints he took off. If he would've survived 60 seconds normally, then his net damage is reduced from 6000 to 5640, or a drop of 360.

So in a typical strong-boss situation, the 450 self-damage caused by a double-frenzy is more than the 360 damage you prevent by killing the boss faster. If there was some other reason you were in a hurry to kill the boss fast (like buffs running out, or a raid script on a countdown), then the frenzy would be more valuable.

Thus overall, unless there is some time-limit factor forcing you to kill the monster in a real hurry, going into Frenzy is only helpful if it increases your damage output by a bigger percentage than it increases your damage input. Double-frenzy gives you about 7 extra damage per point you suffer. So if the boss was already doing more than 1/7th of your DPS, double-frenzy is a win for you. If the boss does under 1/7th of the barbarin's DPS (like most do), then double frenzy is a mistake


Healer Effort
HOWEVER, half that arithmetic above doesn't mean much, because it assumes the presence of perfect healing: the cleric player always casts Heal when needed, and never wastes any mana by healing too much. In reality, the cleric is quite likely to overheal sometimes (especially when Heal Crits kick in).

So the better question is, how much more effort does it take the cleric to heal the Berserker while double-frenzy is on, and is the extra damage worth it? Well, the per-minute self-damage costs about 45 mana worth of Heal spells. If the cleric otherwise had to Heal you once per 30 seconds, now he must do it once per 18 sec.

Not too bad, but still not something a lot of healers will happily volunteer to do. Under what circumstances could it be helpful? Well, if your party is ganging up on a boss and the extra DPS not only helps you kill the boss faster, but also hold aggro and prevent him from hurting rogue players (who haven't got enough over 340 hp to allow the cleric to use full Heals on them), in that case it could surely be helpful.

After all that, the one firm thing we've shown is that for a Berserker, activating double frenzy can often be a mistake. You should never, ever use it against "trash" monsters who are being killed with wounding weapons or other non-DPS effects, and you should also consider not using it against bosses unless they do more than 1/7th of your own DPS.

[Lillitheris]

We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.

Thank you.

[The_Phenx]

We're investigating limiting the critical threat multiplier increases to certain die rolls. (Natural 19 or 20, for example.) While falchions are thematically appropriate for barbarians (Orcs use them by default in 3.5!), rapiers - not so much.

Eladrin I'm not a barbarian, but from my end of the spectrum, I would think that a better approach would be to treat it as such....

.5 x and 1x additional multipliers for one handers, and 1x and 2x for two handers. This would hold to a similar flavor that you gave the kensai line in regards to twf & thf.

Makes sense too as you wouldnt be able to generate the same power with a single stroke one handed, and the kinetic energry generated by two handed weapons will strike MUCH harder. This way your not limiting the build choices, or gimping the prestige enhancement.

[Angelus_dead]

Yes we will have mass heal. What will the mana cost of that be? How many times will a cleric be able to cast it? Will it be enough? I don't think so...
The mana cost is 50, and a cleric can cast it about 50 times total, or 8 times per minute. That will be enough to far out-heal the frenzy self-damage, but that's not the important question to ask.

The better question is: does the damage bonus from the frenzy actually help you win the fight more than the self-damage helps you lose it?

There are absolutely some cases when the frenzy will be a definitive help, like if the monster has an ultra-high AC, but those situations would be rare and unstable. Overall, I've computed that double-frenzy gives you +6 or +7 damage for each 1 damage it does to you, which means that if a boss does more than 1/6th or 1/7th of your DPS, dub-frenzy will help you win, and otherwise it helps you lose.

However, that's moot in a raid-like situation where healing is coming from Mass spells, which means that most player characters are being healed basically for free. If that's the case, then as long as you are not the character taking the single most damage, it's fine for you to frenzy up, because your heals are a side-effect of keeping the squishiest guy alive. For example if an intimidator is holding the boss against his shield, then you're free to frenzy-hit the boss if you're not taking any other damage.

Or of course if there is some other reason to be in a hurry to kill the boss, frenzy helps you win. For example if the boss is regenerating, or the quest has a timer, or the boss has a way to attack you without causing hitpoint damage, or the boss has 5 million hp and you need to hurry and win before your rages are all gone, then frenzy is a sure help there too.

[Strumpoo]

/snip



Angelus -

Very good analogy there.

This definitely doesn't make me want to swap out Crit Rage II for Frenzied though.

Why gimp yourself into the "boss only killer" and uber cleric aggro magnet!?? :D

Why not just keep your barb as the "all mob" killer using the current crit rage?

Yes you won't take down that boss quite as fast, but you will be more useful (and less mana draining) in 90% of the game (when you aren't fighting raid bosses).

Remember, unless you are frenzied you no longer have the expanded crit range. This makes you a lot WEAKER in comparison to crit rage barbs and Kensai. You have now become a gimp melee since your huge damage only comes in frenzy mode.

Also, if the damage come out to 7-1 in our favor. I don't think this is a good trade off. we all know that boss monsters have a much higher HP ratio than that. More like 1000 - 1..

[dragons1ayer74]

/snip


Great post.

Here are the main things I see evolving from it though:
-Good guilds will use this to their advantage the Frenzied Berserker will be the big hitter and they will speed run raid faster than ever
-PUGs will suffer because bad FB players will be manna sponges and will frenzy and cleave and make a mess of things and in general puging barbarians will be left out of groups (whether or not you took this enhancement or not)

[Thanimal]

Warning, insanely long BOE ahead. I probably shouldn't even post this, because nobody will have the time to read it.


Couldn't disagree more. :) FANTASTIC analysis. This is exactly the sort of post that is worth reading. I wish a LOT more forum posts were substantive like this instead of just saying "Frenzy is Dumb."

I don't think I know what BOE stands for, though.

[Relwic]

Ok from what i have read sofar it's not set in stone yet asfar as what they are gona do with the FB. And if it is set in stone then there are ways to offset some of the Dmg. Like using Bodyfeeder weapons, the Pouch of Jerky,Demon bracers, Heck Tasty Hams lol. All in all any of the items that will grant you temp HP or regen will help offset some of the damage.

[/QUOTE]The Berserker can stack both of their Frenzy abilities to increase their strength by 6 and add an additional 6d6 damage to each of their swings at the cost of 2d3 damage reflected back upon them, or become a whirlwind of destruction using Supreme Cleave at will, as long as a friendly healer is willing to keep them going.

Edit: Minor clarification to FB3 - the critical multiplier increases stack.[/QUOTE]

[EKKM]

I notice a lot, not all, posts are comparing the FB killpower to the killpower of a current barb dual weilding WoP rapiers. This may come as shock to some, but not every character has a few WoP rapiers to use.

I do believe that game balance must be done for end game characters, but trying to balance the game based on the top 1-5% of elite players/grinders is not a good way to balance the game IMO.

Also, other people said it earlier, there are other PrEs coming for barbs and, call it a hunch, I think they will follow the build paths created for the NPE:

Path: Savage of the Wild - Sound like frenzied Berserker to anyone??
Class: Barbarian
Suggested Race: Warforged
Solo Ability: Good
These fierce barbarians fight like berserkers, always pressing the attack. They have tremendous power and do massive damage with their huge two-handed weapons.

Path: Storm of Kargon
Class: Barbarian
Suggested Race: Warforged
Solo Ability: Good
More highly trained than their savage brethren, these aggressive barbarians fight with a weapon in each hand and bring the fury of the storm to battle.

Path: Bastion of the Outlands
Class: Barbarian
Suggested Race: Warforged
Solo Ability: Very Good
Through brutal training these extremely tough barbarians are able to shrug off hits that would stun or kill others and can do so while continuing to fight.


So I think you should expect both endurance type barbs and tempest style barbs in the near future.

[LA_MIKE]

..

[Cursed]

So what mechanic will let us turn our shroud heavy picks into rapiers for this change? Obviously there'll be one because you're changing the rules out from under us.

[moorewr]

So what mechanic will let us turn our shroud heavy picks into rapiers for this change? Obviously there'll be one because you're changing the rules out from under us.

You must be new here..

also, how are the picks changing? They're the same.. and you're the same unless you respec.

[Zenix_Leviticus]

I guess I am just not getting it...???


Barbarians already took sooo much damage and can be an absolute nightmare to
heal. With this in mind we are going to give them the ability to intentionally inflict
more damage on themselves.?!.?!

Are we also going to give them their own cleric mercenary to level up with them?

Why don't we just give the Barbarians a set of vicious boots at creation. This
way they can take damage with every step and just forgo the battles all together.


Currently barabarians use their rage everytime they can and go into every fight
swinging for the fences. If you give them this Vicious PrC then they will have to
limit their rages to fights that clerics are willing to act like a kickstand and prop
them up.

So maybe the Frenzied Barbarian becomes the be all and end all in a big fight where
a cleric spam heals them, but it seems as if you have just pulled their teeth for
every other fight leading up to that big fight.


I will say that the use of Bodyfeeder & Lifeshield weapons will proabably be more
prevelant. Also the monks' fists of light healing shield might be beneficial. Even with
that said, it just seems like more trouble than it is worth.

[Strumpoo]

I guess I am just not getting it...???


So maybe the Frenzied Barbarian becomes the be all and end all in a big fight where
a cleric spam heals them, but it seems as if you have just pulled their teeth for
every other fight leading up to that big fight.


I will say that the use of Bodyfeeder & Lifeshield weapons will proabably be more
prevelant. Also the monks' fists of light healing shield might be beneficial. Even with
that said, it just seems like more trouble than it is worth.

Totally agree. Barbs will be a 3rd class melee in everything but the final fight. The loss of the crit range will cause this. Why have a 15 AC barb when you can have a 60AC Kensai (who will crit more, have better saves, won't have to be healed often, etc)?

I don't think bodyfeeder or lifeshield weapons are the answer to this problem either. Since by using those weapons you give up the huge damage of greensteel, so it isn't worth it.

what would you rather have in your party? a 60+ Ac tempest ranger, 60+ Ac Tempest pally, or 60+ AC critting Kensai, or a self damaging 15 Ac barb?

A barb who by the way, doesn't have expanded crits anymore (unless in self damaging "cleric on hip" mode), sucks mana, doesn't have evasion, and has to wait until the big fight to do some real damage?

[BlackSteel]

I guess I am just not getting it...???

.

the viscous damage is SEPERATE from regular rage. barbarians have the option to not rage, rage, frenzy, rage and frenzy, greater frenzy, rage and greater frenzy, and lastly rage with frenzy and greater frenzy

any smart barbarian will only use frenzy on boss fights, or if they have a means to trivialize the damage,

[BlackSteel]

A barb who by the way, doesn't have expanded crits anymore (unless in self damaging "cleric on hip" mode), sucks mana, doesn't have evasion, and has to wait until the big fight to do some real damage?

dont have to respec out of crit rage

AND the crit multiplier works while only raged and not in frenzy, so depending on the weapon you'll do more damage, or the same damage, and in the case of natural 20 weapons, slightly less damage than you do now with crit rage.

ONLY the natural 20 weapons lose out by having crit mult over crit threat AND thats without using frenzy

[Thrudh]

Totally agree. Barbs will be a 3rd class melee in everything but the final fight. The loss of the crit range will cause this. Why have a 15 AC barb when you can have a 60AC Kensai (who will crit more, have better saves, won't have to be healed often, etc)?

I don't think bodyfeeder or lifeshield weapons are the answer to this problem either. Since by using those weapons you give up the huge damage of greensteel, so it isn't worth it.

what would you rather have in your party? a 60+ Ac tempest ranger, 60+ Ac Tempest pally, or 60+ AC critting Kensai, or a self damaging 15 Ac barb?

A barb who by the way, doesn't have expanded crits anymore (unless in self damaging "cleric on hip" mode), sucks mana, doesn't have evasion, and has to wait until the big fight to do some real damage?


You guys aren't reading this right... Rage and Frenzy are separate.... A barbarian can get raged (and geting the crit mutliplier), but NOT in frenzy (where the Viscious damage kicks in)

[Thrudh]

This makes that vampire khopesh from DQ more interesting.... Getting back 1 point of damage on every hits helps a little with the viscious damage...

I wonder if they could introduce greater vampiric healing on weapons that might heal 2 or 3 points per hit?

[Strumpoo]

You guys aren't reading this right... Rage and Frenzy are separate.... A barbarian can get raged (and geting the crit mutliplier), but NOT in frenzy (where the Viscious damage kicks in)

No you CAN'T...






The Vicious weapon enchantment now deals 2d6 damage to opponents struck by the weapon and 1d3 damage back to the wielder instead of 1d6.


Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I
Prereqs: Level 6 Barbarian, Power Attack, Cleave, Barbarian Damage Boost II, Barbarian Power Attack I, Barbarian Power Rage I.
Cost: 4 AP
Benefit: You gain the effects of the diehard feat while raging, and your glancing blows have a chance of applying magical weapon effects. You also gain the ability to expend 10 hit points to enter a frenzy, which increases your strength by 2 and adds the 'Vicious' property to your melee weapons.

Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II
Prereqs: Level 12 Barbarian, Barbarian Frenzied Berserker 1, Barbarian Damage Boost III, Barbarian Power Attack II, Barbarian Power Rage II.
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by 1. Your two handed weapon glancing blows have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects. You also gain the ability to expend 10 hp to Supreme Cleave.





If you want the extra crit range, you have to frenzy II... It automatically adds the "vicious" effect to your weapons, because of frenzy I.


You want extra crit range? Then you have to take self inflicted damage... No way around it.

You want the equivilent of Crit Rage II? Well fine, but it is going to cost you 30 HP instantly and 2D3 for EVERY enemy you hit and EVERY swing you make.

It will be like attacking someone in the PVP pit that wears a guard item. While using no resists. Think about how fast that damage piles up as you swing... Ouch..

Now multiply that by multiple people surrounding you wearing guard items. Beating on you at the same time you are cleaving all of them.. OUCH!

[Thrudh]

The Vicious weapon enchantment now deals 2d6 damage to opponents struck by the weapon and 1d3 damage back to the wielder instead of 1d6.


Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I
Prereqs: Level 6 Barbarian, Power Attack, Cleave, Barbarian Damage Boost II, Barbarian Power Attack I, Barbarian Power Rage I.
Cost: 4 AP
Benefit: You gain the effects of the diehard feat while raging, and your glancing blows have a chance of applying magical weapon effects. You also gain the ability to expend 10 hit points to enter a frenzy, which increases your strength by 2 and adds the 'Vicious' property to your melee weapons.

Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II
Prereqs: Level 12 Barbarian, Barbarian Frenzied Berserker 1, Barbarian Damage Boost III, Barbarian Power Attack II, Barbarian Power Rage II.
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by 1. Your two handed weapon glancing blows have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects. You also gain the ability to expend 10 hp to Supreme Cleave.

Dude, Raging IS separate from Frenzy...

FB I gives you "the effects of the diehard feat while raging, and your glancing blows have a chance of applying magical weapon effects."

No Viscious stuff there...

"You ALSO gain the ability to expend 10 hit points to enter a frenzy, which increases your strength by 2 and adds the 'Vicious' property to your melee weapons."

See? Separate.

FB II gives you "While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by 1. Your two handed weapon glancing blows have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects. "

You get the crit mutliplier WITHOUT entering into a frenzy.

[Strumpoo]

Dude, Raging IS separate from Frenzy...

FB I gives you "the effects of the diehard feat while raging, and your glancing blows have a chance of applying magical weapon effects."

No Viscious stuff there...

"You also gain the ability to expend 10 hit points to enter a frenzy, which increases your strength by 2 and adds the 'Vicious' property to your melee weapons."

See? Separate.

FB II gives you "While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by 1. Your two handed weapon glancing blows have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects. "

You get the crit mutliplier WITHOUT entering into a frenzy.


Nope, I don't believe you do. As soon as you enter the frenzy mode, which you need to do to get that extra crit range, you start taking damage.

Reading this again, it could be interpreted either way. Maybe some dev clarification would be helpful here.

[Thrudh]

Nope, I don't believe you do. As soon as you enter the frenzy mode, which you need to do to get that extra crit range, you start taking damage.

You're reading it wrong... Nowhere does it say that you need to enter the frenzy mode to get the crit multiplier. In fact, FB II, which is where you first get the crit multiplier doesn't even HAVE a frenzy mode.

[Strumpoo]

You're reading it wrong... Nowhere does it say that you need to enter the frenzy mode to get the crit multiplier. In fact, FB II, which is where you first get the crit multiplier doesn't even HAVE a frenzy mode.

If this is the case then losing crit rage II doesn't matter. Since all frenzied's will have it automatically? Correct? I just don't think that is the devs intention. But maybe...

I would like some clarification from devs on this one as it is HUGE.

[BlackSteel]

Nope, I don't believe you do. As soon as you enter the frenzy mode, which you need to do to get that extra crit range, you start taking damage.

Reading this again, it could be interpreted either way. Maybe some dev clarification would be helpful here.

first its crit multiplier, not crit range, crit range is what we have now.

AND if you read his post, it clearly says you gain the crit multiplier while raging.

Frenzy gives extra str and the viscous damage, thats ALL.

[Strumpoo]

first its crit multiplier, not crit range, crit range is what we have now.

AND if you read his post, it clearly says you gain the crit multiplier while raging.

Frenzy gives extra str and the viscous damage, thats ALL.


Good point Black. I was misreading the multiplier part.

Ok, forget it then.

Now this makes absolutly NO sense for a barb with Crit Rage II.. Unless you want to be a one trick pony who is only good for boss fights. Just my opinion of course.

19-20 crits SUCK! :p Of course the SOS would become the THF melee weapon of choice again. Yeah back to using Mod 2 weapons!

[Aspenor]

sorry strumpoo, you're reading it wrong.

[Mellkor]

They are seperate. It is very clear that they are to me. Just read the entire post not just the parts you want.

-JR

[Strumpoo]

sorry strumpoo, you're reading it wrong.

Yeah, I finally read it correctly and posted above. I was replacing multiplier for crit range in my head for some reason.


huookd on phoniks didnudt wrks for me apparently...:D:p


I still stick to my observations that this makes barbs one trick ponies and gives them even bigger survival issues, and healer aggro issues..

[Gunga]

Yep. Strump I'm not reading that the way you are.

Now back to building new barbs before this mod goes live...choices really are the hinges of destiny.

[Samadhi]

I still stick to my observations that this makes barbs one trick ponies and gives them even bigger survival issues, and healer aggro issues..

Agreed. Everyone must play rangers now (although dwarf is no longer mandatory).

[Balkas]

I still stick to my observations that this makes barbs one trick ponies

What were they before?

[Tanka]

This is the MOST negative thing about this enhancement.

This is what is going to cut barbarian's survivability rate in half.

There are no clerics/repairing arcanes who are going to keep up with type of damage when added to the damage from the mobs themselves...

I am sorry but this is ****.

Yes we will have mass heal. What will the mana cost of that be? How many times will a cleric be able to cast it? Will it be enough? I don't think so...

A reconstruct scroll usually repairs for 110-120. That doesn't go very far in terms of fixing that amount of damage. And it is on a timer. not many arcanes are willing to spec into full Forged healing mode.

Horrible..
As A_d mathematically pointed out: Don't Frenzy unless your improved damage output is going to be more than the boss' current input.

It's the same thing I said earlier in the thread. Frenzy is not the Barbarian's meat and potatoes like Rage is -- it's the barbecue sauce. Use it sparingly to enhance the flavor.

In other words: Rage all you want. Frenzy when the chips are down.

Also; get a bodyfeeder. That'll help offset the damage some.

[moorewr]

Agreed. Everyone must play rangers now (although dwarf is no longer mandatory).

Ah, for the days when rangers couldn't get invited to parties... :rolleyes:

[Thanimal]

Agreed. Everyone must play rangers now (although dwarf is no longer mandatory).

(I'm in danger of getting seriously off-topic here, but indirectly I think this is fairly relevant b/c it relates to the impact of the Barbarian change.)

I tend to agree Ranger becomes the DPS of choice (if it wasn't already), but I wouldn't think *straight* Ranger nor even Ranger/Monk is required. In fact, if the goal is the maximum possible rate of CON damage with dual-W/P, then my contention is the fastest such rate will be Fighter 10/Ranger 6 by using the Fighter Haste Boost (and Tempest of course). If Ranger levels above 6 can increase the rate of CON damage, then I'd like to be informed of that! Perhaps a Ranger Tempest II is planned? Fwiw, Rogue 10/Ranger 6 can also tie this rate of CON damage, assuming you can stay in hit-on-2 territory, which seems believable.

Of course, mostly Ranger would still be a great build, for things like Evasion and Barkskin. But I think once Barbarians get no increase in Puncturing effectiveness, Fighter 10/Ranger 6 [which just "happens" to be the plan for my character Darrea!:)] seems to map to the fastest possible CON damage rate?

Since there is no Fighter Haste Boost tier above 10, the 20-level build looks like Fighter 10/Ranger 9 to pick up Evasion, and I have no clue what the last level should be!

[Strykersz]

But when he does turn on the full double Frenzy, that hurts him for 4 damage per hit, and increases his attacks by around 30 per swing.


As it is currently described, double frenzy adds 6d6 vicious damage and 6 str, or 6*3.5 + 3 dmg/swing = 24. edit: 2.25 str bonus if you're TWF

I should also note that it is not a binary choice(no frenzy, double frenzy). Greater frenzy is nearly double the efficiency of frenzy(I say nearly because it has double the activation cost and we don't know how often that must be paid).

[moorewr]

(I'm in danger of getting seriously off-topic here, but indirectly I think this is fairly relevant b/c it relates to the impact of the Barbarian change.)

I tend to agree Ranger becomes the DPS of choice (if it wasn't already), but I wouldn't think *straight* Ranger nor even Ranger/Monk is required. In fact, if the goal is the maximum possible rate of CON damage with dual-W/P, then my contention is the fastest such rate will be Fighter 10/Ranger 6 by using the Fighter Haste Boost (and Tempest of course). If Ranger levels above 6 can increase the rate of CON damage, then I'd like to be informed of that! Perhaps a Ranger Tempest II is planned? Fwiw, Rogue 10/Ranger 6 can also tie this rate of CON damage, assuming you can stay in hit-on-2 territory, which seems believable.

Of course, mostly Ranger would still be a great build, for things like Evasion and Barkskin. But I think once Barbarians get no increase in Puncturing effectiveness, Fighter 10/Ranger 6 [which just "happens" to be the plan for my character Darrea!:)] seems to map to the fastest possible CON damage rate?

Since there is no Fighter Haste Boost tier above 10, the 20-level build looks like Fighter 10/Ranger 9 to pick up Evasion, and I have no clue what the last level should be!

Why does this out-dps a ranger/barb? Sure, the Barb has lost the increased crit range (unless they already have it), but the barb still has rage and the superior crit multiplier in melee. So they are equivalent for effect weapons and still the DPS champs.

I'm seeing this sentiment, but I think it way overstates the case.

[Thanimal]

Why does this out-dps a ranger/barb? Sure, the Barb has lost the increased crit range (unless they already have it), but the barb still has rage and the superior crit multiplier in melee. So they are equivalent for effect weapons and still the DPS champs.

I'm seeing this sentiment, but I think it way overstates the case.

I'm NOT saying it can actually deal more damage. It cannot in most circumstances. I am merely saying that the W/P CON-damage edge now goes fairly clearly to this sort of build rather than any Barbarian mix-in, because the range of Puncturing is no longer widened, so that only the rate of swings matters for W/P.

EDIT: Re-reading your message, you might be missing the +30% Fighter Haste Boost? Barbarian has nothing equivalent (so far as I know).

But in any case, when it comes time to lay down a beating of *actual* damage, I think Darrea (my Fighter/Ranger) will fair well, but it is clear to me that an optimized Barbarian, both now and after this change, can deal more.