Cleric Capstone: Divine Intervention Preview

[Eladrin]

The beloved Clerics of Stormreach gain a new tool in the next module with their Capstone Enhancement for keeping their charges (or themselves) alive.

Divine Intervention
Prereq: Level 20 Cleric, 74 Action points spent
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You are a strong conduit of positive energy, and can expend a turn attempt to ward your target for five minutes against mortal damage - hit point damage will not lower their hit point total below -9. If the target is knocked unconscious, this effect will heal the target after a few seconds and then fade.

Players that have gone through the Korthos Island experience may remember Cellimas' Protection from Death effect - this is an altered version of that tutorial spell. Essentially, while this effect is on your target, they cannot die from hit point damage. Instant death effects like Implosion or Finger of Death bypass this protection, however, so keep those Deathblock items on, and it fades a few seconds after being forced to activate. Still, that's one less dead person!

Today's activity is "guess what this enhancement was originally called". :)

As normal with previews, duration, cooldown, and effects are still subject to change.

[Turial]

Immortal On?

Wow thats a powerful capstone.

[Mhykke]

Nice. Protection from Death?

[Aspenor]

Interesting...gave us an SC spell as a capstone, eh El?


DELAY DEATH
Necromancy
Level: Cleric 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 immediate action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
(harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
You gesture toward your ally and call upon
the power of your beliefs. A soft, golden glow
appears on your companion’s chest, around
his heart.
The subject of this powerful spell is unable to die from hit point damage. While under the protection of this spell, the normal limit of –9 hit points before a character dies is extended without limit. A condition or spell that destroys enough of the subject’s body so as to not allow raise dead to work, such as a disintegrate effect, still kills the creature, as does death brought about by ability score damage, level drain, or a death effect. The spell does not prevent the subject from entering the dying state by dropping to –1 hit points. It merely prevents death as a result of hit point loss. If the subject has fewer than –9 hit points when the spell’s duration expires, it dies instantly.

[Razgoth_Droudom]

very nice :)

[EightyFour]

God mode

[Gunga]

Maybe I won't splash my Lvl 16 Clerics with 1 Barb now...

[Beherit_Baphomar]

I would've called this;

The Spell You Cast On Noobs So They Dont Die spell.

[tihocan]

Sounds quite fun :)

Was it called "<stringtable error 0x28743349>"?

[Memnir]

Now that's a capstone. :)
Nice.

[frugal_gourmet]

Was it called "<stringtable error 0x28743349>"?

I lol'ed.

[vtecfiend99]

well i guess i was wrong hoping they wouldnt make anything that made any multi class gimped... I can see this being a primary strategy effect for certain types of quests. SIGH oh well i guess it time to re roll my cleric

[Justicesar]

SSSSSaaaaawwwweeeetttt!!!!

[Mhykke]

well i guess i was wrong hoping they wouldnt make anything that made any multi class gimped... I can see this being a primary strategy effect for certain types of quests. SIGH oh well i guess it time to re roll my cleric

Whaaa?

How does this invalidate an 18cleric/2 monk, for example?

[Borror0]

Basically, if you were to die, it prevents you from dying once, lets you fall unconscious, heal you and then fade away?

Is there any risk to die during the period where you fell unconscious?

[Impaqt]

Gotta speak fromthe other side of the fence here I guess....

I dont like it at all.....

If I want to keep myself alive, I'll cast death pact.... If I want to keep my party members alive, I'll keep em alive.. If I fail.. I'll Res em....

I think the usefullness of this ability is beng exagerated. Once incaped, the ward fades "after a few seconds"

I guess this would stop the "OMG, I'm at -143 Hit points" DBF failed save...... but other than that, I just dont see it.

ANd it tied to Turns... Blech..... If you have enough Turns in ya to ward a whole party.. FOr 5 minutes at a time.... you just gave up a bunch of your DV's...... And if your not speced for DV's you probobly wont have enough to even cover the whole party once.

:(

[Mhykke]

gotta Speak Fromthe Other Side Of The Fence Here I Guess....

I Dont Like It At All.....

If I Want To Keep Myself Alive, I'll Cast Death Pact.... If I Want To Keep My Party Members Alive, I'll Keep Em Alive.. If I Fail.. I'll Res Em....

I Think The Usefullness Of This Ability Is Beng Exagerated. Once Incaped, The Ward Fades "after A Few Seconds"

I Guess This Would Stop The "omg, I'm At -143 Hit Points" Dbf Failed Save...... But Other Than That, I Just Dont See It.

And It Tied To Turns... Blech..... If You Have Enough Turns In Ya To Ward A Whole Party.. For 5 Minutes At A Time.... You Just Gave Up A Bunch Of Your Dv's...... And If Your Not Speced For Dv's You Probobly Wont Have Enough To Even Cover The Whole Party Once.

:(

Qft

[DoctorWhofan]

YES!!!

BWAHAHAAAHAHAA!!!!

I WILL GET THAT SPELL!!

I shall be worshiped by all who I heal!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA...er...


uhm





hi?




ehem...like it.:p

[Impaqt]

well i guess i was wrong hoping they wouldnt make anything that made any multi class gimped... I can see this being a primary strategy effect for certain types of quests. SIGH oh well i guess it time to re roll my cleric

Please provide an example.. I'll be happy to provide youwith an alternative Tactic....

Evasion, +3 to yoru Saves, and 2 Feats is WAY better than this capstone.... No doubt about it.

Seriously FOlks.. What am I missing here???? I see all kinds of people saying this is great.... Whats so great about it? Gimme some exaples where this would be useful... You know.. More useful than a cleric who, You know.. HEALS.....

[frugal_gourmet]

So far I'm cool with the capstones. They seem moderately useful but in no way force characters to take 20 levels. Taking the 20 full levels in a spellcasting class already provides reward.

[Junts]

Eladrin:

is there any kind of use limitation here? cooldown, tied to turn undeads, sp cost, something?

if there's any kind of limiting factor, this spell is probably only a big deal in areas like shroud 4 where there is an inability to raise if someone dies.

however, I hope this ability has some kind of limiter so you cannot just use it on everyone all the time.

[Aspenor]

Please provide an example.. I'll be happy to provide youwith an alternative Tactic....

Evasion, +3 to yoru Saves, and 2 Feats is WAY better than this capstone.... No doubt about it.

Seriously FOlks.. What am I missing here???? I see all kinds of people saying this is great.... Whats so great about it? Gimme some exaples where this would be useful... You know.. More useful than a cleric who, You know.. HEALS.....

honestly it's basically a recanned version of a level 4 cleric spell.....

[DelScorcho]

This comes as salvation for all clerics who have spilled 64 oz of diet coke in their laps during fights and need a few seconds to clean up ...

I'm hoping the capstone enhancements for casters will all be like this. I'm also hoping the capstones for melee characters are gimpy ...

[Mhykke]

Seriously FOlks.. What am I missing here???? I see all kinds of people saying this is great.... Whats so great about it? Gimme some exaples where this would be useful... You know.. More useful than a cleric who, You know.. HEALS.....

It's good, not great, like the monk capstone. So the devs have done a good job not making the capstones overpowered.

[Mhykke]

Eladrin:

is there any kind of use limitation here? cooldown, tied to turn undeads, sp cost, something?

if there's any kind of limiting factor, this spell is probably only a big deal in areas like shroud 4 where there is an inability to raise if someone dies.

however, I hope this ability has some kind of limiter so you cannot just use it on everyone all the time.

Says right in the description it's limited to your turn attempts.

[Gol]

Dumb. Level 4 spell from my 1500sp pool vs a turning-based ability?

Give me the spell, please. Don't insult my 6 Cha cleric by stealing a spell he should have at level 7 and make it a level 20 ability he can't use.

[Anthios888]

Cool incentive to stay pure, but not so crazy that other build options are not still viable. Thanks for the preview.

[ArkoHighStar]

Dumb. Level 4 spell from my 1500sp pool vs a turning-based ability?

Give me the spell, please. Don't insult my 6 Cha cleric by stealing a spell he should have at level 7 and make it a level 20 ability he can't use.

/agreed on that

[vtecfiend99]

Please provide an example.. I'll be happy to provide youwith an alternative Tactic....

Evasion, +3 to yoru Saves, and 2 Feats is WAY better than this capstone.... No doubt about it.

Seriously FOlks.. What am I missing here???? I see all kinds of people saying this is great.... Whats so great about it? Gimme some exaples where this would be useful... You know.. More useful than a cleric who, You know.. HEALS.....

well seeing as i have a 14/2 cleric monk atm, i know a thing or two about it but thanks for the lesson dad.

what im saying is that this effect will be balanced in the quests as they come out. its a 5 minute get out of jail free card for a character dying. its a basic god mode. I dont think MY build will be gimped what I really mean is that everyone ELSE will think it and tactics in some quests might come to revolve around this thing. just saying. I am entitled to my opinion

[Mhykke]

well seeing as i have a 14/2 cleric monk atm, i know a thing or two about it but thanks for the lesson dad.

what im saying is that this effect will be balanced in the quests as they come out. its a 5 minute get out of jail free card for a character dying. its a basic god mode. I dont think MY build will be gimped what I really mean is that everyone ELSE will think it and tactics in some quests might come to revolve around this thing. just saying. I am entitled to my opinion

You mean tactics will involve clerics keeping people alive?

How is this any different than now? Provide some examples.

[Anthios888]

When will the high-charisma 1 sorc splash DV/turning clerics find this thread?

[Impaqt]

anywhere where we have a penalty box on death, ie shroud part 4, and the reaver, I would put it on casters and some lower hit point characters just in case, and on myself as death pact is useless in the shroud part 4 if you are actually trying to finish it

Unless Turbine starts intoducing more Penalty Box Quests (Which I think would be a huge mistake) I dont see it....

Level 20 Ability.....

I rarely see people Die in Part 4 of the shroud now... Give us 4 more levels.. Seriously... How many people are gonna die?

We're just suposed to start randomly throwing this ability out every 5 minutes? THere go the DV's that the caster coulda used to throw that Haste or Firewall....

[Quanefel]

Great preview, looks like something my cleric might use. As for the name it originally was, I will take a stab and say "Stabilize" or "Stabilization"?

[Zenako]

anywhere where we have a penalty box on death, ie shroud part 4, and the reaver, I would put it on casters and some lower hit point characters just in case, and on myself as death pact is useless in the shroud part 4 if you are actually trying to finish it

In addition, when you DIE, you take the penalty, plus lose ALL your buffs. This would partially prevent that from happening as often. Like last night in SoS, when one of the melee's died in there, they lost all their protective buffs, etc, which meant that when they got back up and into things, the mobs were able to chew on them a whole lot more effectively and took even more SP to fix/rebuff.

It means that someone getting spammed by fireballs for example, will just go down, not die in Kobold for example.

Lots of useful ways to go, and I for one like that they chose to tie it to Turns and Level pure clerics. Someone choosing to multi has gained whatever benefits from that multi all along, and many times mock those who chose to stay pure (for whatever reason).

Plus assuming it has the same range limitations (or lack thereof) as Divine Healing, it will be very useful in a number of circumstance to prevent allies from dying.

[Valiance]

The thing to remember is that this keeps you alive at -9 i.e. incapped. If it kept you alive at 1hp and active then it would be an amazing ability. As it is it's ok but not really a big change from just using your sp to raise the dead rather than heal up the incapped.

All in all it's a pretty nice captstone imo, not overpowered but could be a little useful.

[Impaqt]

well seeing as i have a 14/2 cleric monk atm, i know a thing or two about it but thanks for the lesson dad.

what im saying is that this effect will be balanced in the quests as they come out. its a 5 minute get out of jail free card for a character dying. its a basic god mode. I dont think MY build will be gimped what I really mean is that everyone ELSE will think it and tactics in some quests might come to revolve around this thing. just saying. I am entitled to my opinion


But its NOT a 5 Minute "God Mode" at all.... Its a Stop me from Dying once spell that Fades ina few seconds once your incapped.... How is this gonna help charaters getting subjected to AOE damage? How bout Buring Blood? How about a pidly little acid arrow?

Since this is TIed to DV's and NOT Spell Points, I cant see players clamoring for it.... this will be used exclusivly at the clerics discression.....

[frugal_gourmet]

But its NOT a 5 Minute "God Mode" at all.... Its a Stop me from Dying once spell that Fades ina few seconds once your incapped.... How is this gonna help charaters getting subjected to AOE damage? How bout Buring Blood? How about a pidly little acid arrow?


I think the key is that it fades in a few seconds. This gives the cleric an extra window to hit heal on you. It's an insurance policy.

[Impaqt]

It means that someone getting spammed by fireballs for example, will just go down, not die in Kobold for example.


Not really.. It just means it'll take a few more seconds for them to die when the effect fades away.....

The buff thing? meh. If that melee really needs a whole sting of buff icons across the top of his screen to be efective you probobly got the wrong melee.

[ArkoHighStar]

Unless Turbine starts intoducing more Penalty Box Quests (Which I think would be a huge mistake) I dont see it....

Level 20 Ability.....

I rarely see people Die in Part 4 of the shroud now... Give us 4 more levels.. Seriously... How many people are gonna die?

We're just suposed to start randomly throwing this ability out every 5 minutes? THere go the DV's that the caster coulda used to throw that Haste or Firewall....

true but bad things happen, and I would choose this over death pact, as they are essentially the same, but one allows me to keep my buffs, as most have said not uber but can be useful

[vtecfiend99]

You mean tactics will involve clerics keeping people alive?

How is this any different than now? Provide some examples.

how about bards that get booted from vod runs for not having ac songs? how about pallys that get booted from same runs and more for not having plus5 aura? how about MY CLERIC that i have now not getting into a shroud at least twice because i dont have, and i swear to god here, MASS DEATH WARD??? how about bards that were not warchanters being booted from the shroud when it first came out?


really, maybe you dont ever have to pug but i do. and the perception people might have of this enhancment is that it is a necessary tool to win if there are quests where for example you are seperated forcefully from your other party members. or where the damage in an aoe is just so severe that anyone without evasion HAS to have this if they dont have 600 hp.

[Mhykke]

true but bad things happen, and I would choose this over death pact, as they are essentially the same, but one allows me to keep my buffs, as most have said not uber but can be useful

And a futher weakness is that it only lasts for 5 minutes, unlike death pact.

[Irongutz2000]

It not great but its not bad either nice job EL :)

[vtecfiend99]

But its NOT a 5 Minute "God Mode" at all.... Its a Stop me from Dying once spell that Fades ina few seconds once your incapped.... How is this gonna help charaters getting subjected to AOE damage? How bout Buring Blood? How about a pidly little acid arrow?

Since this is TIed to DV's and NOT Spell Points, I cant see players clamoring for it.... this will be used exclusivly at the clerics discression.....

maybe you should read it again? or am i mistaken that it seems that it put you back on your feet and then fades...


when the target is negative it heals the target and then fades away

[Vivanto]

I'm right on Impaqt with this one, pretty overrated and mostly useless capstone.

Even less if it gets a timer on it, most probably just like a 1round/lvl, so in DDO that would be 2mins on lvl20...

As for those who want to save the dvs for the sorc, mehh. How many SPs that sorc will have on lvl20 you think? They already don't need any pots or dvs, can nuke trough most quests. ^^

As a save the noob spell it is again useless, how many real hopeless noobs reach lvl20?

[Aspenor]

I don't think this is overpowering. It's a mildly useful enhancement that gives us more to do with our Turns....

I suppose I give this one the thumbs up, though I really reserve my judgement for in-game testing.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Zerger's bff? :rolleyes:

[Mhykke]

how about bards that get booted from vod runs for not having ac songs? how about pallys that get booted from same runs and more for not having plus5 aura? how about MY CLERIC that i have now not getting into a shroud at least twice because i dont have, and i swear to god here, MASS DEATH WARD??? how about bards that were not warchanters being booted from the shroud when it first came out?


really, maybe you dont ever have to pug but i do. and the perception people might have of this enhancment is that it is a necessary tool to win if there are quests where for example you are seperated forcefully from your other party members. or where the damage in an aoe is just so severe that anyone without evasion HAS to have this if they dont have 600 hp.

First of all, I do pug quite a bit.

Secondly, I have never heard of a bard being kicked from a vod run for not having an ac song. Or group's being specific over a paladin's aura. Or the death ward thing. I'll come right out and say it. I think you're making those up out of thin air. And if not, you might have seen some terrible group do that once and now are pretending like it happens all the time.

Finally, when I said give me examples, I meant give me examples of how groups will use this new capstone as some kind of different "tactic," considering that clerics are the ones people look to to keep them alive, and this doesn't change that.


maybe you should read it again? or am i mistaken that it seems that it put you back on your feet and then fades...


when the target is negative it heals the target and then fades away

Yes, but it probably won't be healing the equivalent of what a lvl 20 cleric with superior potency and enhancements is healing for. If you're in a trouble spot and go incapped (within the 5 minute timeframe of the buff mind you) you'll get some garbage heal like 85 hit points or so, and guess what, you'll still be in that trouble spot.


You're severely overreacting.

[ArkoHighStar]

And a futher weakness is that it only lasts for 5 minutes, unlike death pact.

true I guess I would use both, but again in situations where I would prefer not to loose my buffs, having both would be a nice to have insurance policy while concentrating on healing

[Mockduck]

I like it. This seems like a totally appropriate and decent capstone enhancement for clerics.

[Justicesar]

....Puts on Oliver Twist Face...."Please sir may I have some more"


Keep them coming

[Impaqt]

maybe you should read it again? or am i mistaken that it seems that it put you back on your feet and then fades...


when the target is negative it heals the target and then fades away

It doesnt say how much it heals... DOes it heal ya upto 1 HP? DOes it actually give ya a Full 150Pt HEAL? Ether way, as soon as you get back up, your vulnerable to DYING again....

[Quanefel]

I wonder if to make it worthwhile the Dev's can allow metamagic feat to extend the duration? Just a thought.

[Mhykke]

true I guess I would use both, but again in situations where I would prefer not to loose my buffs, having both would be a nice to have insurance policy while concentrating on healing

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a decent capstone, and I was planning on lvl 20 w/ my cleric anyway, so I'd probably take it. But the thing is, when talking about using it on yourself.....clerics are generally pretty good at keeping themselves alive. If I'm in danger of dying, I toss a heal on myself. I don't see me using it on myself all that much, unless soloing, which it could be pretty nice.

[Tyrande]

[...]
Divine Intervention
[...]

Today's activity is "guess what this enhancement was originally called". :)



Protection from Death?

Tomorrow Never Dies?

Blessing of the Eladrins?

Will Energy Drain/Enervation still affect the target that has this buff?

This buff will be too good on a warforged cleric...or warforged <anything>

From the description text I read "implosion". Sounds like this is a new spell that will be implemented? We already have "destruction" and "slay living".

[Zenako]

Think about how the game had shifted recently to the point where as a melee you needed to have evasion to have reliable success in many quests. This gives you a way to make a non-evasion melee a more surviveable member of the party.

One thing not clear is how much HEALING the heal part of the effect will actually do? Is it a HEAL? effect like from a scroll ie 110 HP (would make sense for the level of the cleric involved and the likely recipients. You need at least a little wriggle room. If the heal effect just pops you up to 1 HP, that would not be as useful.

[Mhykke]

Protection from Death?

Tomorrow Never Dies?

Blessing of the Eladrins?

Will Energy Drain/Enervation still affect the target that has this buff?

This buff will be too good on a warforged cleric...or warforged <anything>

From the description text I read "implosion". Sounds like this is a new spell that will be implemented? We already have "destruction" and "slay living".

Maybe it's still early, but why would a warforged gain a special benefit from this?

[Irongutz2000]

Come onn pali capstones/ PRc's :D Want to know what to do with mine :D

[vtecfiend99]

First of all, I do pug quite a bit.

Secondly, I have never heard of a bard being kicked from a vodthen you do not pug vod very often or if you do you most likely lead it. i have seen this on several occasions run for not having an ac song. Or group's being specific over a paladin's auraalso, have not only seen this i have seen a pally blamed for a completely noob attempt at vod going south because of his lacking 2ac. Or the death ward thing. I'll come right out and say it. I think you're making those up out of thin air.oh well. I am not. And if not, you might have seen some terrible group do that once and now are pretending like it happens all the time.the fact that it happens at all is the issue. I didnt say it happens all the time

Finally, when I said give me examples, I meant give me examples of how groups will use this new capstone as some kind of different "tactic," considering that clerics are the ones people look to to keep them alive, and this doesn't change that.I believe i did that with "forcefully seperated from the rest of the group"

anyway, I dont really care that you want to call me a liar. Like i said maybe you dont have to pug as much as i do. Maybe you consider a run with thre rather uber guilds making up the roster a pug, but i dont. Not trying to turn this into a ****ing match with you, I think that this will pigeon hole some people and i dont like it. again i have every right to my opinion and you do also.

[Aspenor]

Protection from Death?

Tomorrow Never Dies?

Blessing of the Eladrins?

Will Energy Drain/Enervation still affect the target that has this buff?

This buff will be too good on a warforged cleric...or warforged <anything>

From the description text I read "implosion". Sounds like this is a new spell that will be implemented? We already have "destruction" and "slay living".

implosion is a chain effect instakill spell, fortitude save or die on 1 monster per round until one makes a save (from PnP)

not sure how DDO will do it.

[Mhykke]

Come onn pali capstones/ PRc's :D Want to know what to do with mine :D

/signed!

[Impaqt]

Maybe it's still early, but why would a warforged gain a special benefit from this?

That ones got me scratchin my head too.

[Mhykke]

anyway, I dont really care that you want to call me a liar. Like i said maybe you dont have to pug as much as i do. Maybe you consider a run with thre rather uber guilds making up the roster a pug, but i dont. Not trying to turn this into a ****ing match with you, I think that this will pigeon hole some people and i dont like it. again i have every right to my opinion and you do also.

Well, I don't just pug with the same folks, at least not for the last couple of months while at school. I jump into LFMs as I can get em, often times with people I don't know.

I have never, ever, heard anyone ask what a paladin's enhancements to AC were, or kicked from group because of it.

If a group is a good group, they're not asking about a paladin's enhancements. If the group is bad, they're not sophisticated enough to wonder about details like how many ap's the paladin spent on bulwark.

You have your right to your opinion. And I have a right to say I don't believe you in the slightest.

[Zenako]

That ones got me scratchin my head too.

Warforge auto stabilize and regen back up...so assuming you are no longer in a hazard zone you are good to recover, heal up and continue on when solo.

[Mhykke]

Warforge auto stabilize and regen back up...so assuming you are no longer in a hazard zone you are good to recover, heal up and continue on when solo.

:confused:

This ability saves you at -9, then tosses you a heal, so being warforged, or having the diehard feat, is irrelevant.

[Zenako]

:confused:

This ability saves you at -9, then tosses you a heal, so being warforged, or having the diehard feat, is irrelevant.

True... ok was trying to think of what a WF got that fleshies don't....mmmm

[Aspenor]

To be perfectly honest this ability is LESS powerful than the LEVEL FOUR spell on which it appears to be based.

I dunno, it's definitely not overpowered, and it definitely could be a lot more powerful without being overpowered.

However, it seems that the devs have a different perspective on power level than I.

[ArkoHighStar]

I guess the big question to eladrin what does the heal portion of the spell mean, is it just bringing you back up to 1 hp or is it a heal for 100hp's?

[Strumpoo]

Instant death effects like Implosion

.[/i]



This is the most important part of this new capstone...



Oh wait....it isn't part of the capstone..


still the most important thing about it though! :D:p

[Shadospawn]

This is a lvl 20 ability. Going to go way out on a limb here. Doesn't seem to be a lot of thinking outside of the box going on yet, though. (no offense intended)

It could be that in current content that this isn't the greatest ability, but that in the mod 9+ high-end content it will be very useful.

Imagining rogues pulling aggro on mobs that cleave for insane damage and get one-shotted...

Yeah yeah... healers heal. But if in a situation where a healer healing isn't going to save your butt, maybe this will be nice ability to have.

I know that's a huge vote of confidence for the devs bringing in some 'different' content... but hey I'm an optimist.

[Mhykke]

.

Imagining rogues pulling aggro on mobs that cleave for insane damage and get one-shotted...



Assuming the lvl 20 cleric is running with a lvl 20 rogue, and everyone (especially at that level) has heavy fort, and at worst that rogue will have 300-400 hit points......If mobs are doing 300-400 hit points of damage non crit with melee, I don't think we need to worry about the capstones, b/c nobody will be playing anymore.

[Impaqt]

This is a lvl 20 ability. Going to go way out on a limb here. Doesn't seem to be a lot of thinking outside of the box going on yet, though. (no offense intended)

It could be that in current content that this isn't the greatest ability, but that in the mod 9+ high-end content it will be very useful.

Imagining rogues pulling aggro on mobs that cleave for insane damage and get one-shotted...

Yeah yeah... healers heal. But if in a situation where a healer healing isn't going to save your butt, maybe this will be nice ability to have.

I know that's a huge vote of confidence for the devs bringing in some 'different' content... but hey I'm an optimist.

I always have been, and always will be a player who lives by "Dont bite off more than you can chew"

If you Play a squishy Rogue, then adust your playstyle....

If your a caster and you get wiped out by DBF's, think about carrying FIreshield and Protection from FIre.

Condidering 3 of my 4 clerics have fewer than 5 Turns, How do I manage who and when toeven use this ability? Gott work on my Scrying I guess......

[PurdueDave]

It's OK but not great and not a reason to go 20 cleric. I don't like that it's tied to turn attempts.

In the "quickened mass heal" fight environment it might be sort of useful. Maybe as an aggro reducing thing on a DPS guy?

IMO, though, it doesn't come close to offsetting a multi-class splash.

[Borror0]

It's OK but not great and not a reason to go 20 cleric. I don't like that it's tied to turn attempts.
Why? There should be more stuff to do out of turn attempts to make higher Cha attractive.

Oh, and DVs should be ungimped.

[BlackSteel]

I like it, for pure clerics its moderately useful and not costly. If it puts you back up at ten hp then I can see it being neglected, who wants to go incap on the pitfiend, just to jump up, then fall back down again.

Could be nice on real squishies in shroud part 4, or non evasion toons in Kobold end fight hard/elite.

But I mostly like it b/c it makes me not regret the monk splash at all ^^

[Shadospawn]

Assuming the lvl 20 cleric is running with a lvl 20 rogue, and everyone (especially at that level) has heavy fort, and at worst that rogue will have 300-400 hit points......If mobs are doing 300-400 hit points of damage non crit with melee, I don't think we need to worry about the capstones, b/c nobody will be playing anymore.

Why not? That would rock.. :)

Anyway... I was just trying to use that as an example. Lvl 20 abilities are 'hopefully' built around lvl 20+ content. Maybe... just maybe.. it could be useful.

Or maybe not.

We'll just have to see.

[Do'Urden]

Meh....situationally useful at best....something to do with turn attempts for a pure caster cleric ;)

I seriously doubt if this is going to gimp cleric splash builds in any way. The only potential problem will be with party *leaders* who think this is a requirement for high level questing :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes: (i.e. demonstrating that you probably don't want to be in the group anyway).

[dameron]

Dumb. Level 4 spell from my 1500sp pool vs a turning-based ability?

Give me the spell, please. Don't insult my 6 Cha cleric by stealing a spell he should have at level 7 and make it a level 20 ability he can't use.

Wait 'til you see the Wizard capstone: Improved Invisibility

[Impaqt]

Why? There should be more stuff to do out of turn attempts to make higher Cha attractive.

Oh, and DVs should be ungimped.


How many DV's does your cleric have again? I forget....

[Ustice]

Name guess: Reboot. Sheltering Hand of (pick a deity).

One of the keys here is that it takes a turning attempt. Not all Clerics use DV. Personally, I only have the first level of it to focus on other areas. It means that I can ward another toon to prevent disaster and keep them from losing their buffs while not using my mana. (Sounds nice for Vision of Destruction). It's a lot more useful than Unyielding Sovereignty, since it doesn't have a ridiculous cool-down timer, and costs a lot less as well.

Sure, it's just a few clickies of a spell, but for 2 AP, that isn't bad at all. People spend a lot more for the dragonmark of healing lines.

[Blackwolfe]

I was a little upset after reading the requirements for this.

I still have the very first character I rolled up in this game. Birthday is 14 May 2006, a 28-point human cleric. Along the way I made a noob mistake, thinking that his non-min/max stats could carry me to 20. Somewhere around level 10 I decided to splash a level of fighter for feats and other survivability reasons. This did not work out so good so I went back to concentrating on a clerics bread and butter, healing.

That one mistake, over 2 years ago is coming back to haunt me again. Making the level requirement 20 will ensure that a large portion of clerics out there will never even see this ability.

Think about it, if I remember correctly, clerics get their new spells at odd levels, so is this an ability that is so good that you would go totally pure for? In my opinion, based solely on the description, I think not. Don't read this wrong, I like the new ability and would love to have it, but I think the requirements are a little high.

I think that the requirement for this ability should be 18, like other capstones that I read about. This would allow you to add some flavor to your build and not have to plan a pure path from day one.

If you intention, Turbine, is to have this so rare that most will never see it then mission accomplished. If you wanted to give a cool ability to the majority of clerics builds out there, lower the level requirements a bit.

[Do'Urden]

I think that the requirement for this ability should be 18, like other capstones that I read about. This would allow you to add some flavor to your build and not have to plan a pure path from day one.

If you intention, Turbine, is to have this so rare that most will never see it then mission accomplished. If you wanted to give a cool ability to the majority of clerics builds out there, lower the level requirements a bit.

It's called a CAPSTONE enhancement for a reason :cool: The PrC Enhancements (typically lvl 6, 12, 18) are something completely different and have yet to be annouced for Clerics.

[Aspenor]

I was a little upset after reading the requirements for this.

I still have the very first character I rolled up in this game. Birthday is 14 May 2006, a 28-point human cleric. Along the way I made a noob mistake, thinking that his non-min/max stats could carry me to 20. Somewhere around level 10 I decided to splash a level of fighter for feats and other survivability reasons. This did not work out so good so I went back to concentrating on a clerics bread and butter, healing.

That one mistake, over 2 years ago is coming back to haunt me again. Making the level requirement 20 will ensure that a large portion of clerics out there will never even see this ability.

Think about it, if I remember correctly, clerics get their new spells at odd levels, so is this an ability that is so good that you would go totally pure for? In my opinion, based solely on the description, I think not. Don't read this wrong, I like the new ability and would love to have it, but I think the requirements are a little high.

I think that the requirement for this ability should be 18, like other capstones that I read about. This would allow you to add some flavor to your build and not have to plan a pure path from day one.

If you intention, Turbine, is to have this so rare that most will never see it then mission accomplished. If you wanted to give a cool ability to the majority of clerics builds out there, lower the level requirements a bit.
not sure what game you're playing, but the majority of clerics out there are pure 16.

[Mhykke]

I think that the requirement for this ability should be 18, like other capstones that I read about.

Capstones, by definition, are level 20 enhancements.

Only 2 capstones announced, and both are lvl 20.

If you're thinking of the PrC enhancements, those haven't been announced for clerics.

[Ustice]

Why? There should be more stuff to do out of turn attempts to make higher Cha attractive.

Oh, and DVs should be ungimped.

To make a higher Charisma more attractive, all it would take is making Turn Undead actually useful (without throwing every feat, AP, and item slot that you have at it).

[Do'Urden]

to Make A Higher Charisma More Attractive, All It Would Take Is Making Turn Undead Actually Useful (without Throwing Every Feat, Ap, And Item Slot That You Have At It).

Ding! DVs are useful and all but hardly a reason to throw significant points into CHA.

[PurdueDave]

Why? There should be more stuff to do out of turn attempts to make higher Cha attractive.

Oh, and DVs should be ungimped.

I agree 100% on making turns more useful. DM was a step in the right direction. However, I don't think it belongs in the capstone. And yeah, DV's scale very poorly.

[ArkoHighStar]

I was a little upset after reading the requirements for this.

I still have the very first character I rolled up in this game. Birthday is 14 May 2006, a 28-point human cleric. Along the way I made a noob mistake, thinking that his non-min/max stats could carry me to 20. Somewhere around level 10 I decided to splash a level of fighter for feats and other survivability reasons. This did not work out so good so I went back to concentrating on a clerics bread and butter, healing.

That one mistake, over 2 years ago is coming back to haunt me again. Making the level requirement 20 will ensure that a large portion of clerics out there will never even see this ability.

Think about it, if I remember correctly, clerics get their new spells at odd levels, so is this an ability that is so good that you would go totally pure for? In my opinion, based solely on the description, I think not. Don't read this wrong, I like the new ability and would love to have it, but I think the requirements are a little high.

I think that the requirement for this ability should be 18, like other capstones that I read about. This would allow you to add some flavor to your build and not have to plan a pure path from day one.

If you intention, Turbine, is to have this so rare that most will never see it then mission accomplished. If you wanted to give a cool ability to the majority of clerics builds out there, lower the level requirements a bit.


most clerics are pure, and the ones that aren't have done so fo various reasons, but multi classing is a balancing act, and these types of capstone enhancements were no surprise, as Turbine has ling hinted that they would reward pure classes with something once we got to cap. It is not totally overowering either as most have pointed out.

[Blackwolfe]

not sure what game you're playing, but the majority of clerics out there are pure 16.

Not to seem snarky or dissing on you Asp, but the majority of clerics that I run with on Argo have spashed something along the way. Its to the point where when I actually see a pure 16 cleric at this point I notice it. Most have gone the way of the 15cleric 1 sorc or other more interesting builds. The pure cleics are out there, dont get me wrong but more have been splashing.

I guess a reward for the planned everyting out from day one crowd is in order

[Borror0]

I think that the requirement for this ability should be 18, like other capstones that I read about. This would allow you to add some flavor to your build and not have to plan a pure path from day one.
Turbine cannot balance by taking in account those who messed up. Sorry.

It's a good thing to favor having pure builds. I am sorry to hear you made a poor build decision but you have to live with it. You are less powerful, that is the concept of a mistake.

[bobbryan2]

not sure what game you're playing, but the majority of clerics out there are pure 16.

That doesn't invalidate his statement. I'm sure there are a lot more clerics with 2 or fewer splashes than just pure clerics.

And for the record... I do agree with him. It sucks that someone made a 3am decision after half a bottle of rum one night and there's no recourse to fixing it. But I derailed on capstone thread on it, I'll leave this one be. :)

As for this enhancement... maybe I'm just missing it. But I can barely think of anywhere in the game I would want this on me. People keep saying part 4 of the shroud. Well.. if you're in danger of dying in part 4 of the shroud, I'm almost certain it's because you don't have evasion and you have a low reflex save. If all that's true, why do you think you'll even survive a couple seconds after it wears off and you're still at melee with a giant pit fiend who's lobbing DBFs all around you.

And someone else mentioned it'd be great in new content that 'requires' evasion. How would it be useful there? The last room of Enter the Kobold? If you're dying there, trust me.. you're going to die instantly when it heals you. 14,000 flamestrikes and DBFs flying everywhere constantly aren't going to politely stop and wait for you to get to safety.

I'm thinking the 'best' use of this would be that it would clear aggro from you if you're fighting with someone else. So one person is taking a ton of damage, that he'd normally die from. Then he goes incapped, everything aggros on his friend, and gets the initial guy back up.

Is that useful? I guess marginally.

So, I give it a big thumbs up!

[Blackwolfe]

Capstones, by definition, are level 20 enhancements.

Only 2 capstones announced, and both are lvl 20.

If you're thinking of the PrC enhancements, those haven't been announced for clerics.

Probably thinking of PrCs then. Oh well, maybe those will be good enough to keep me playing my semi-retired cleric.

[Aeneas]

This ability was originally called, Lag Monster Insurance Policy.

[Aspenor]

Not to seem snarky or dissing on you Asp, but the majority of clerics that I run with on Argo have spashed something along the way. Its to the point where when I actually see a pure 16 cleric at this point I notice it. Most have gone the way of the 15cleric 1 sorc or other more interesting builds. The pure cleics are out there, dont get me wrong but more have been splashing.

I guess a reward for the planned everyting out from day one crowd is in order

the majority of them i run with on argo...don't. oh well.

[dejafu]

Good, lots of controversy - some folks calling it overpoweringly awesome, others calling it pathetically gimped, most calling it a nice, situationally useful ability that introduces a few more options.

Perfect - exactly how a capstone should be :D

Though I will say this to those who argue that "a GOOD cleric shouldn't have to worry about this in the first place." No matter how uber you are at whatever your role in this game, there exists plenty of room for slip-ups. I can't count the number of times that I've seen top-notch players get their characters killed in the most stupid ways imaginable, and top-notch clerics that get other characters killed through their own dumb mistakes. In both cases, it's usually quickly talked away as "OMG the LAAAAAG!!" - which may very well be the case, but hey, yet another reason to have safeguard options, right?

I've played what I feel is a pretty effective capped cleric for quite awhile now, and I know that this capstone will take a good chunk of the stress out of my job. I was debating splashing monk levels once the cap went up, but now, I'm going to happily take it to 20 for the enhancement. At the same time, I feel comfortable leveling my cleric/monk without being gimped in endgame. Nice work! :)

[KoboldKiller]

My Cleric will be pure, course it is only level 3 right now but no splashing will happen.

[Do'Urden]

I guess a reward for the planned everyting out from day one crowd is in order

Not sure how CAPSTONE enhancements relate to someone planning out their build. In fact, I might argue pure builds are the LEAST rigorous in terms of planning, etc.

To me the Capstone enhancements are simply a special ability achieved by being highly trained in your field (i.e. pure class). Is that somehow unreasonable? I don't think so. The PrC enhancements that are being announced are bringing tremendous flavor potential to multi-classed build so don't get all bent just yet.

[Aspenor]

Good, lots of controversy - some folks calling it overpoweringly awesome, others calling it pathetically gimped, most calling it a nice, situationally useful ability that introduces a few more options.

Perfect - exactly how a capstone should be :D

Though I will say this to those who argue that "a GOOD cleric shouldn't have to worry about this in the first place." No matter how uber you are at whatever your role in this game, there exists plenty of room for slip-ups. I can't count the number of times that I've seen top-notch players get their characters killed in the most stupid ways imaginable, and top-notch clerics that get other characters killed through their own dumb mistakes. In both cases, it's usually quickly talked away as "OMG the LAAAAAG!!" - which may very well be the case, but hey, yet another reason to have safeguard options, right?

I've played what I feel is a pretty effective capped cleric for quite awhile now, and I know that this capstone will take a good chunk of the stress out of my job. I was debating splashing monk levels once the cap went up, but now, I'm going to happily take it to 20 for the enhancement. At the same time, I feel comfortable leveling my cleric/monk without being gimped in endgame. Nice work! :)

agree completely.

this ability is not so flashy and WOW that you need to have it.

i'd argue it's pretty weak.

[BurnerD]

I guess this could be useful, but doesn't really make me not want to multiclass...

Considering the way the new material is going, and one of the main features that multiclass is looking for... this would have been a cool Cleric capstone...

Divine Evasion
For a duration of X minutes a cleric can cast divine evasion on himself/herself. This enhancement substitutes your will save for your reflex save. Instead of relying on your agility you are relying on divine help (kind of like the force). Saves still fail on a 1 and results in half damage...... This can be cast once per rest....

[Riot]

Today's activity is "guess what this enhancement was originally called".
Fortunate Fate or Revivify

[Tyrande]

Maybe it's still early, but why would a warforged gain a special benefit from this?

Because a warforged cannot be level drained and with this buff, they will be more un-stoppable.

[Do'Urden]

i'd argue it's pretty weak.

I'd agree considering we're talking about the reward for a life's training and specialization.

[Aspenor]

I'd agree considering we're talking about the reward for a life's training and specialization.

yeah and uh....it's a recanned level four spell. level FOUR, that's castable by a 7th level cleric.

and the real spell is just flat-out better. exponentially so.

[Mhykke]

Because a warforged cannot be level drained and with this buff, they will be more un-stoppable.

:confused:

Still don't follow. What's level draining have to do with this ability?

[ArkoHighStar]

Not to seem snarky or dissing on you Asp, but the majority of clerics that I run with on Argo have spashed something along the way. Its to the point where when I actually see a pure 16 cleric at this point I notice it. Most have gone the way of the 15cleric 1 sorc or other more interesting builds. The pure cleics are out there, dont get me wrong but more have been splashing.

I guess a reward for the planned everyting out from day one crowd is in order

the thing is most of the clerics who splash lvls of something else know they are potentially giving up something to gain what they want, all MC's do, they will always be a flavor of the month build, and as the game changes new builds both pure and MC will dominate for a while. Most of the prc enhancements seem to be capping out at 6/12/18, allowing for variable builds within those confines, the capstones are just a little gravy for those who decided to stay pure.

[BlackSteel]

how about the ability to burn turns to give full heals? but I could see that being overpowering, as a turn specced character would then have roughly 1400 sp worth of healing (equating it to a empowered Heal spell) from their turns.

[Mhykke]

how about the ability to burn turns to give full heals? but I could see that being overpowering, as a turn specced character would then have roughly 1400 sp worth of healing (equating it to a empowered Heal spell) from their turns.

That's exponentially more powerful than this announced capstone.

[Milolyen]

For those that think it is weak solely because it uses a turn attempt/dv ... How much mana does the typical DV give a mage? How much does it cost a mage, a cleric, a bard, a ranger and anyone else throwing buffs to buff up a main tank in a raid? Oh and wait for death penalty to wear off. Lets say shroud, I have seen many times where mass healing even with spot healing not catching a fighter/dps person before they die. With this each cleric can put this on atleast one of the squishy melee type, they go down but will never drop below -9 hps and if they are down a certain amount of time they will get a heal and then the buff will go away. Meanwhile they lost NO buffs, they don't have a death penalty because they did not die and no one has to waiste mana rebuffing that person (for now). Then also ... how many people out there died or did not get a heal off in time due to lag? That is now fixed as well with this buff if used.

Again this is a nice enhancement given to clerics at lvl 20, it in no way takes away what you gained through MCing. I know my cleric will stay pure for this enhancement.

Milolyen

[Zenako]

Original name of the effect:....


Hjeal ME!!!...I already Did!!!!

[Tyrande]

:confused:

Still don't follow. What's level draining have to do with this ability?

can't be level drained to death *and* can't damage HP to death. follow now?

[Milolyen]

:confused:

Still don't follow. What's level draining have to do with this ability?

I think those where guesses at the original name of the enhancement

Milolyen

[EinarMal]

The bottom line is with no re-spec option the upper level enhancements including capstone, and tier III prestige enhancements if they require 18 levels for all of them are going to **** people off.

It is hard to blame people for being upset when all you have to go off of for planning are the 3.5 rule books, where multi-classing is most often the best route for many classes.

[vtecfiend99]

can't be level drained to death *and* can't damage HP to death. follow now?

???

[Mhykke]

can't be level drained to death *and* can't damage HP to death. follow now?

I do follow, but now I just don't agree.

[BlackSteel]

That's exponentially more powerful than this announced capstone.

lol yep

mostly meant in jest. as what can you expect. the ability has to be useful, yet not overpowering enough to make everyone with a splash reroll. And 1400 extra sp would be a reroll, monk ac or not.

The capstone planned is fine, depending how much it brings you up for; 100 hit points, or half hp would be ok. Or give a command prompt akin to raise dead for when to jump up so you can coordinate with the cleric.

Or is this going to be like stabilize? Wait 30 seconds, get the icon, then wait for it to count down inorder to jump back up. Except in this case, you just wont die from damage while stable. I may have to go back to korthos and try to die a few times to see.

[Blackwolfe]

It is a little early in the morning for me(night shift worker) and my thought processes havent really gotten going yet, so I'll let this go for now.

Don't get me wrong, this is a cool thing for pure clerics. My only real fear is that, up to now, the only downside for a single splash level cleric has been really loss of a DC on spells and and extra spell slot. Nothing that cannot be made up for.

But as this get implemented, I hope that the majority of players do not EXPECT someone to have this. I do not play with anyone who asks for something specific from a player and then boots him/talks bad about him when they do not. I love this game and most of teh players in it, but there are some idiots out there.

I have tremendous love for my cleric. Hey its my first charcter and played him almost exclusively from day one.

I guess what i'm trying to say is that the game has undergone changes along the way. Some I agree with and some I dont. I did not splash to build the flavor of the month or on a whim. But AT THE TIME, it seemed like a really cool thing to do and it has worked out pretty good for me so far.

I think that this is a personal dissing at myself, because there is something that I would like to have in my bag of tricks and cannot. Bad Blackwolfe, no more thinking without knowing the future for you.

One more thing and I'll go away. I have not even heard/read about possble capstones until recently so there was no way that I could have even known I was going to give something like this up (whether good or bad) when it occured one night 2 years ago at 3am.

[Mhykke]

The bottom line is with no re-spec option the upper level enhancements including capstone, and tier III prestige enhancements if they require 18 levels for all of them are going to **** people off.

It is hard to blame people for being upset when all you have to go off of for planning are the 3.5 rule books, where multi-classing is most often the best route for many classes.

It's also hard to get **** off considering you know that by multiclassing, you're giving up abilities than staying multi classed. No matter if you knew exactly about capstones or PrC's, people know that you forego enhancements at high levels when you multiclass. The fact you didn't know what those enhancements were is irrelevant, nobody knew what those enhancements were, including pure classes.

[QuantumFX]

Divine Intervention
Prereq: Level 20 Cleric, 74 Action points spent
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You are a strong conduit of positive energy, and can expend a turn attempt to summon a group of individuals to counsel another player about their bad play style and excessive potion drinking. The individuals also point out all the things a cleric could be doing rather than spending all their spell points on the target.

Fixed that for ya.

[Gratch]

I can see the uses, VoD hero-tank(s) that you want to keep buffed, Hound tank (that you want to keep aggro'ing), other clerics on raids, squishier toons that are constantly dying in some quests (you know that one guildy with the original 8 con drow sorc build... yeah him), plus new level 20 content with mobs doing over 100 damage (probably)... and at one point there was talk of monsters having fortification "busting" or bypassing abilities... so if you did have to worry about crits in level 20 quests...

That said, I'd like other uses for my turn attempts and this to be a level 4 spell.... even though my only cleric will go to cleric 20.

[Kalari]

Kinda agree with Impact though im keeping my main cleric pure my other two clerics (one who is a fighter splash, the other a rogue splash) wont hurt by not having this I think. If I want to keep my party up I heal them. If they die hopefully im in a position where I can raise them quickly. As much as I think the lowbie korthos version of this was cool by level 20 if im so worried about the party im running with to have to use this spell well then Kamari will just have to retire. In fact in most of the raids with the groups ive been priveledge to run in this spell would be unneccessary. Heck I think I only used DP once to test it out and that was shortmanning a high level quest just to see how useful it would be.

So cool capstone probably wont make a difference to me either way.

[EinarMal]

It's also hard to get **** off considering you know that by multiclassing, you're giving up abilities than staying multi classed. No matter if you knew exactly about capstones or PrC's, people know that you forego enhancements at high levels when you multiclass. The fact you didn't know what those enhancements were is irrelevant, nobody knew what those enhancements were, including pure classes.

You should be giving up the abilities roughly as per the PHB. The idea that turbine should decide to further boost pure builds just for the hell of it to discourage multi classing without any way to change existing characters is pretty poor design to me.

[Zenako]

Now for the potentially scary part, Mobs using this type of ability:eek:

Get a bunch of death warded, non-dying from dps types and it could be nasty. Death Pacts on the mob Clerics, and them using this thing on their allies. They could drop the HP down a bit and still keep the challenge....mmmm

Maybe even have a Hireling be able to cast it (if they ever make level 20 hirelings??).

As for new developments hurting or helping older characters, the end game mechanics were always up for guessing anyway, so no matter what you did, you were always making a choice/guess if it would matter. Staying pure meant you were planning on making the character the best pure class you could. That might mean being the best Paladin you could be, it might well not make you the best melee you could be, or the best trapmonkey, but the best/pure Paladin. (or Cleric, or Wizard, or Fighter, etc).

Multiclassing ALWAYS gives more short term benefits and falls short of ultimate benefits of high end boons. IT almost always makes the character more powerful in the near term in both DDO and PnP games. (Which is why it was not all that uncommon to find D&D PnP builds with 4+ classes/prestige classes in them. The low level boons are often really really nice. It is how level 11 PnP Characters have 20+ Fort saves. Lots of +2 Fort saves 1st levels of classes...)

Giving options and tradeoffs on builds is a good thing.

(and just like my Pure Paly with 13 Turns loves DM, my clerics all have mid teens Turns as well and will probably look forward to using this new perk.)

[Mhykke]

You should be giving up the abilities roughly as per the PHB. The idea that turbine should decide to further boost pure builds just for the hell of it to discourage multi classing without any way to change existing characters is pretty poor design to me.

Only true if multiclasses are hurt by these capstones.

So far, these capstones have shown to be nice, but hardly overpowering considering the benefits one gets from multiclassing.

[Do'Urden]

It's also hard to get **** off considering you know that by multiclassing, you're giving up abilities than staying multi classed. No matter if you knew exactly about capstones or PrC's, people know that you forego enhancements at high levels when you multiclass. The fact you didn't know what those enhancements were is irrelevant, nobody knew what those enhancements were, including pure classes.

Agreed. The PrC and Capstone enhancements are, in no way, taking away the benefits of multi-classing. In some cases, the new PrC enhancements will create far MORE POWERFUL multi-class builds at Lvl 20 than what exists today. The Capstone enhancements are just that....a REWARD for a LIFE'S SPECIALIZATION & TRAINING. If someone is that disappointed that they decided to MC and will miss out on a Capstone...then they MC'd for the the wrong reasons.

[Chaos000]

true but bad things happen, and I would choose this over death pact, as they are essentially the same, but one allows me to keep my buffs, as most have said not uber but can be useful

although... this ability might be like dv's in the sense that you can cast it on others but not on yourself.

but if you can cast it on yourself you can put this buff on top of deathpact. double insurance so to speak

[Baron]

God Mode Minus

[DagazUlf]

When I first read this, my thought was "Cool, a little insurance against the Lag Monster!":)

Upon reflection, I am not so keen on this actually working out very well, though...

For one, if this works like the whole Warforged-coming-back-up-after-unconscious-deal (forgot the technical term there), then there are definite issues with monster AI and downed characters. Ever go down from getting tripped by a cat or wolf and then try to recover from that? Great fun.

Two, are we talking about an actual Heal going off to bring a character up, or just something to get them conscious? 150hp goes a long way to making this viable, but just alive seems pretty pointless.

One general scenario I can think of is something like Part Two in the Shroud:
-character goes in there and is separated from any healing via random teleport;
-gets some really bad luck and a cat knocks them down and soon they are at -9 hit points;
-probably a devil roaming around, too;
-what is going to happen?

Will they just get killed instantly by the cat and/or devil when the Capstone kicks off? Will a party member get there in time? Will the cat just keep playing with the unconscious body keeping it at -9 forever? Will the Capstone kick-off and the character pops-up with 150 HP?

The comments on level drains and stat damage seem appropriate, too. Sometimes just dying is more of a benefit....

[Gol]

Why? There should be more stuff to do out of turn attempts to make higher Cha attractive.

Oh, and DVs should be ungimped.
There should be more stuff to make higher Intel attractive for Barbarians, too.

[Do'Urden]

You should be giving up the abilities roughly as per the PHB. The idea that turbine should decide to further boost pure builds just for the hell of it to discourage multi classing without any way to change existing characters is pretty poor design to me.

Sigh...the 6/12/18 PrC enhancements ARE the boost to multi-class builds. The Capstone enhancements are the be-all-end-all of training in a specific class. Why is that a hard concept to grasp?

None...let me repeat NONE of the Capstone enhancements announced so far (Monk, Cleric) are powerful enough to make me avoid multi-classing for a FAR GREATER benefit.

IMHO...the Devs are doing a FANTASTIC job so far with the PrC and Capstone enhancements announced to date. I'll eat my shoe if this all comes to pass before March though ;)

[Gratch]

BTW... was there any mention of racial capstone enhancements? I've kept my human pure... really... wait? What Drunken Festival? But she was cute? Wasn't a she? One of the special fey? The fey and the proud? Hermaphrowhat? That's not a hair style? Oops.

Well... no capstone for half-lings, half-orcs or half-elves of course.

[Asherons_Chosen]

Not really.. It just means it'll take a few more seconds for them to die when the effect fades away.....

The buff thing? meh. If that melee really needs a whole sting of buff icons across the top of his screen to be efective you probobly got the wrong melee.

I think its a great ability. I think its also great that it doesn't cost SP... but something that the cleric's playstyle or choices can effect them having. And who knows what quests will be added by 20th level. And the high level raids and quests require a number of protections/buffs to make them smooth runs. An unbuffed melee almost always costs the cleric more mana than it would have taken to throw some bonuses and protections.

[Impaqt]

I think its a great ability. I think its also great that it doesn't cost SP... but something that the cleric's playstyle or choices can effect them having. And who knows what quests will be added by 20th level. And the high level raids and quests require a number of protections/buffs to make them smooth runs. An unbuffed melee almost always costs the cleric more mana than it would have taken to throw some bonuses and protections.


I'm finding it quite hilarious that everyone who thinks this is a great enhancment really have no idea why they think its great......

THe only buff a cleric generally thows that truely saves spell points is Protection from energy.. and thats quickly dissapated and requires a recast anyway.. Sure.. Recitation can help, but EVerything else canbe dupicated by an item the Fighter should have anyway.... Resists items, Protection Items, Luck items.... THey are all pretty easily obtainable.

[Do'Urden]

I'm finding it quite hilarious that everyone who thinks this is a great enhancment really have no idea why they think its great......

What if I don't think it's great? Do I still have to know why?

:p

[Gol]

I'm finding it quite hilarious that everyone who thinks this is a great enhancment really have no idea why they think its great......

THe only buff a cleric generally thows that truely saves spell points is Protection from energy.. and thats quickly dissapated and requires a recast anyway.. Sure.. Recitation can help, but EVerything else canbe dupicated by an item the Fighter should have anyway.... Resists items, Protection Items, Luck items.... THey are all pretty easily obtainable.
Except Death Ward :(

[PurdueDave]

Except Death Ward :(
nm...imadoof

[Impaqt]

Except Death Ward :(

Beholder optic nerves, Silver Flame Pendant, Scarabs of spell absorbtion....

[ArkoHighStar]

I'm finding it quite hilarious that everyone who thinks this is a great enhancment really have no idea why they think its great......

THe only buff a cleric generally thows that truely saves spell points is Protection from energy.. and thats quickly dissapated and requires a recast anyway.. Sure.. Recitation can help, but EVerything else canbe dupicated by an item the Fighter should have anyway.... Resists items, Protection Items, Luck items.... THey are all pretty easily obtainable.

who says the cleric is the only one buffing, GH, barksin, stonskin, blur, deathward, bard songs all are standard buffs, that would be lost upon death

[Do'Urden]

Beholder optic nerves, Silver Flame Pendant, Scarabs of spell absorbtion....

Visor of the Flesh Render Guards?

[Gratch]

Beholder optic nerves, Silver Flame Pendant, Scarabs of spell absorbtion....

Except if you're geared for AC and tank something... you don't have the slots or sometimes the time to click a lot of this stuff (less true for monks or those that have made lots of shroud items - such as mineral 2 clothing - or magically slot machined the perfect set of slot economy dragon touched armor). Plus the bard songs...

[Milolyen]

You should be giving up the abilities roughly as per the PHB. The idea that turbine should decide to further boost pure builds just for the hell of it to discourage multi classing without any way to change existing characters is pretty poor design to me.

What "boost" I just see another enhancement that requires x lvls of a class. I asked this in the monk capstone thread but guess I can ask this here. Should a 12 fighter/4 barb get access to crit rage 2 just because he has some barb lvls in him? No. Should a 6 ranger/ 10 barb be able to take all of the FE enhancements just because he has 6 lvls of ranger? No. Should they create enhancements for all lvls 1-20? YES. Most likely when you MC you are doing so for both feats AND enhancements of the MC class(es). If you don't think enhancements should be created for ALL lvl then what lvl do YOU think should be the cut off? LvL 10? but then what if someone wants 8/8/4 split ... the 10/10 split would have access to better enhancements to the 8/8/4 split. Then why SHOULDN'T pure classes get enhancements? because they chose to stay pure where you did not? Seriously where is this sense of entitlement a lot of you have comeing from?

Milolyen

[Impaqt]

who says the cleric is the only one buffing, GH, barksin, stonskin, blur, deathward, bard songs all are standard buffs, that would be lost upon death

I'm not saying buffs arent nice..... But no melee should be overly reliant on them. If they are, they are probobly gimped.

Barkskin: Useless to 95% of people meleeing. I laugh every time someone casts it on my clerics, Rogues, or Wizard.....
StoneSkin: Quickly Dissapated in important fights. Need to recast anyway if you use it.
Blur/Displacement: Useless against Purple Named anyway.
Deathward: Provided alternates above to use in an emergency
Bard Songs: Very nice buff. I love em.. But Critical to succes? no....

[Zenako]

I'm finding it quite hilarious that everyone who thinks this is a great enhancment really have no idea why they think its great......

THe only buff a cleric generally thows that truely saves spell points is Protection from energy.. and thats quickly dissapated and requires a recast anyway.. Sure.. Recitation can help, but EVerything else canbe dupicated by an item the Fighter should have anyway.... Resists items, Protection Items, Luck items.... THey are all pretty easily obtainable.

Ok...do you really need a list?

Songs?
Deathward (ok Visor) but that takes the "fighter" a trigger item animation to activate
Freedom of Movement
Greater Heroism
Blur
Displacement
Jump
Tumble
Haste
Prot Energys
Resist Energys?
Spell Resistence
Barkskin
StoneSkin
Truesight
RAGE
etc

now maybe the fighters you run with can do all those themselves with no downtime, but frankly none of the ones I run with can match those expectations and still remain active in combat. Give some a minute or two on the side and perhaps they can get back via clickies, scrolls, pots, etc, but that seems very very ineffecient to me.

Plus nothing short of having someone with Divine Soveriengty drop that effect on you will clear the death penalty (s) that will be accrued.

[Strumpoo]

Yes.... but IMPLOSION!!! :eek::D

[Impaqt]

Ok...do you really need a list?

Songs?
Deathward (ok Visor) but that takes the "fighter" a trigger item animation to activate
Freedom of Movement
Haste
Prot Energys
Resist Energys?
Spell Resistence
Barkskin
StoneSkin
Truesight
RAGE
etc

now maybe the fighters you run with can do all those themselves with no downtime, but frankly none of the ones I run with can match those expectations and still remain active in combat. Give some a minute or two on the side and perhaps they can get back via clickies, scrolls, pots, etc, but that seems very very ineffecient to me.

Plus nothing short of having someone with Divine Soveriengty drop that effect on you will clear the death penalty (s) that will be accrued.

I think Eladrin put it best when talking about the Abbot a while Back....


Dont Die.....

All this enhancement does in encourage melees to play even more recklessly. I'll stick to Doing what I can to prevent death instead of looking for loopholes around it.

[ArkoHighStar]

I'm not saying buffs arent nice..... But no melee should be overly reliant on them. If they are, they are probobly gimped.

Barkskin: Useless to 95% of people meleeing. I laugh every time someone casts it on my clerics, Rogues, or Wizard.....
StoneSkin: Quickly Dissapated in important fights. Need to recast anyway if you use it.
Blur/Displacement: Useless against Purple Named anyway.
Deathward: Provided alternates above to use in an emergency
Bard Songs: Very nice buff. I love em.. But Critical to succes? no....

again useful but not overly powerful, keeping your buffs is nice, but as you stated not required, GH and bard songs are the most relevent to melees, avoiding a death penalty is important to everyone especially low hp characters

[Gratch]

Yes.... but IMPLOSION!!! :eek::D

Yes yes... you do realize it's a clerk spell. You'll have to keep your arcanes happy with meteor swarming kobolds. So if destruction sounds like dropping a piano on mobs... will implosion sound like they're swallowing a piano?


Implosion
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Destruction 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One corporeal creature/round
Duration: Concentration (up to 4 rounds)
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You create a destructive resonance in a corporeal creature’s body. For each round you concentrate, you cause one creature to collapse in on itself, killing it. (This effect, being instantaneous, cannot be dispelled.)

You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell.

Implosion has no effect on creatures in gaseous form or on incorporeal creatures.

[Vorn]

My cleric is a Priestess of Vol. She would like the party members to come back as undead slaves, please.

[Milolyen]

I'm finding it quite hilarious that everyone who thinks this is a great enhancment really have no idea why they think its great......

THe only buff a cleric generally thows that truely saves spell points is Protection from energy.. and thats quickly dissapated and requires a recast anyway.. Sure.. Recitation can help, but EVerything else canbe dupicated by an item the Fighter should have anyway.... Resists items, Protection Items, Luck items.... THey are all pretty easily obtainable.

I think it is a great ability.

LMAO your kidding about the resist items right? Currently my fighter has ONE spot open for a greater resist x and that is cloak and that will be going bye bye when I can get a chattering ring. Much easier to have a cleric or caster cast resists. Then there is freedom of movement, don't underestimate spell resistance, Deathward (my fighter barely has enough room to carry equipment as it is I don't need to be running around with 3 goggles). Then there are the mage spells such as blur, and GH at bare minimum. Count in Bard songs and ranger barkskin. This ability is far better than having one more turn attempt to pass to a mage as it saves not only the person from dieing but the death penalty along with it.

Also it does not go away once it stops the person from going past -9 the first time. Look at Kobald how many DBF's can a fighter get hit by in there? The fighter takes 3 - 4 on the chin with 10 hps left doing what about 700 dmg yet the fighter does not drop below -9. Fighter facing pit fiend in part 4, lag hits with fighter at 100 hps, 380 dmg DBF hits fighter followed by meteor swarm for another 100 dmg total and instead of being sent to part 4 the fighter is at -9 waiting on the next mass heal or the heal that comes from the buff. Once back on his feet the buff goes bye bye.

Milolyen

[RigorAdar]

Why this excite ment over implosion (or any of the other 9th lvl insta-death spells weird, wail, ie)? All the new content is immune to them.

[MrCow]

Blur/Displacement: Useless against Purple Named anyway.

The Stormreaver can't see through personal displacement effects like blur and displacement (although, for someone who conjures storms, you'd think he could by now). :p

[Impaqt]

Why this excite ment over implosion (or any of the other 9th lvl insta-death spells weird, wail, ie)? All the new content is immune to them.

Well, most of the folks here seem excited about using this Divine Intervention against roaming packs of Kobolds too.... Maybe they'll use Implosion on them?

Seriously though, Clerics need more offensive spells for Trash mobs.. Impolosion should be cool....

[Gratch]

In theory, weird (aoe PK) and implosion (4 round, 1 mob per round) are multi target death fx. How they'll work in implementation....

They'll also have naturally higher DC's than unheightened Fingers/Destructions.

[Dexxaan]

Maybe I won't splash my Lvl 16 Clerics with 1 Barb now...

/agreed.

My Cleric liked it so much he has 7 now. But 2 minimum.


I would've called this;

The Spell You Cast On Noobs So They Dont Die spell.

LOL


Please provide an example.. I'll be happy to provide youwith an alternative Tactic....

Evasion, +3 to yoru Saves, and 2 Feats is WAY better than this capstone.... No doubt about it.

Seriously FOlks.. What am I missing here???? I see all kinds of people saying this is great.... Whats so great about it? Gimme some exaples where this would be useful... You know.. More useful than a cleric who, You know.. HEALS.....

/Agreed.
Capstone Schmapstone. 2 of them so far and it´s like an extra candle on your GrandMa´s 90th Birthday....:D


As a save the noob spell it is again useless, how many real hopeless noobs reach lvl20?

You´d be amazed how many are at Level 16! What´s gonna stop em from 4 more levels?


This ability was originally called, Lag Monster Insurance Policy.

Nice.


I'm finding it quite hilarious that everyone who thinks this is a great enhancment really have no idea why they think its great......

THe only buff a cleric generally thows that truely saves spell points is Protection from energy.. and thats quickly dissapated and requires a recast anyway.. Sure.. Recitation can help, but EVerything else canbe dupicated by an item the Fighter should have anyway.... Resists items, Protection Items, Luck items.... THey are all pretty easily obtainable.

Yep.


Ok...do you really need a list?

Songs? Clerics Sing now???
Deathward (ok Visor) but that takes the "fighter" a trigger item animation to activate (it does; it also requires typing it in P-Chat to get one...same difference)
Freedom of Movement - Kundarak Boots & Scrolls.
Greater Heroism - Planar Girds and Scrolls.
Blur - Wands - DQ Cloak
Displacement - Tough to scroll but Greensteel Clickies rock, no need to go 3rd tier.
Jump - If you need jump it means you have no INT (on the build) and who knows what other skills and abilities are lacking.- Potions/Clickies and Boots are available
Tumble - Tumbleweed - Boots and Potions.
Haste - Pots - GS Clickies
Prot Energys - Wands - Pots
Resist Energys? - Wands - Cloaks - GS items - Bluefire necklace - Reaver Amulet - Etc..
Spell Resistence - Scrolls - Drow - Rings/Belts/etc.
Barkskin - Pots - Seal of Earth - DT Armor - Madstone Boots
StoneSkin - Wands - GS Item & Weapon Clickies (probably the single most common clickie)
Truesight - True Seeing? - Stave of The Seer - Scrolls.
RAGE - Pots - Clickies - Ring of Rage
etc

now maybe the fighters you run with can do all those themselves with no downtime, but frankly none of the ones I run with can match those expectations and still remain active in combat. Give some a minute or two on the side and perhaps they can get back via clickies, scrolls, pots, etc, but that seems very very ineffecient to me.

Plus nothing short of having someone with Divine Soveriengty drop that effect on you will clear the death penalty (s) that will be accrued.

All are possible if UMD was built into and possible. Can be tedious but you don´t need ALL of these for evry Quest, need to be selective and prepped.



Conclusion: Capstone Schmapstone. More reason to Multiclass. (If you know what you are doing)

[Zenako]

/agreed.

All are possible if UMD was built into and possible. Can be tedious but you don´t need ALL of these for evry Quest, need to be selective and prepped.

Conclusion: Capstone Schmapstone. More reason to Multiclass. (If you know what you are doing)


Ok so basically you are saying that there is no reason for anyone to bother buffing all those self sufficient warriors out there. Ok. I guess all the casters should keep that in mind in the future and not waste any Spell Points buffing anyone but themselves, since all those buffs can be gotten from other sources anyway.....gheesh.

The point is not that you could buff someone up to the gills, but that the odds of having to even consider doing this on someone who takes a major hit (for whatever reason) will be a lot lower and it will leave their buffs (from whomever cast them) intact.

If all those buffs don't matter and "any fighter relying on buffs is gimped" really is true, then why bother with buffs on any fighter anyway? Haste is a useless buff now...mmmmm, don't recall ever hearing that one before.... overpowered yah, but useless and a crutch for gimps? mmmm

[gfunk]

I think Eladrin put it best when talking about the Abbot a while Back....


Dont Die.....

All this enhancement does in encourage melees to play even more recklessly. I'll stick to Doing what I can to prevent death instead of looking for loopholes around it.

well, sometimes your own death is a consequence of group planned playstyle, and is difficult to avoid.

Example: I was taking Sally a while ago on my fighter.. they aren't really the ideal sally tank, but will do if healing and curse removal keep pace. Now, as this fighter only has 444hp (with 182%healing amp tho), its nice if I can rage up, or the cleric has to be more efficient at healing (not all clerics are created equally). If I'm madstoned, then the curse removal person also has to be on their game, as I won't be able to remove my own curses. It's prefereable not to be wasting time removing ones own curses anyways.

So what happens when either the curse removal person or the cleric isn't doing their job? fighter = dead = all buffs gone + deathpenelty = beginning of VOD gong show.

Cleric capstone would nicely take care of that... it sounds like a nice cushion for when mistakes happen

Now, you might say that my fighter should just have more AC and have enough HP and DPS to cover their own curse removal while maintaining agro... but they don't have all that stuff, and they won't get it without a bunch more work... which is ongoing, and they need to run something in the meantime. Or you might say that i just shouldnt tank with that fighter. Not that I entirely disagree, but sometimes either that WF barb or that high dps/high ac build just aren't available without waiting around for a long time.

[silverraven]

****!! Am I glad that I started rerolling my 15 clr\1pally? YES!!!

[maddmatt70]

The primary thing I don't like about the new capstone is its only 5 minutes. Constantly recasting this would be a chore and since you have only so many turns it really is impractical. The only place I see this being extremely useful is in shroud part 4 because of the penalty box and the time spent fighting the fiend is under 5 minutes. I suppose it could be useful at the end of running with the devils on elite and the end of the kobold quest - a cleric could cast it on him/herself and others right before end fight. Using this in raids though would be a hideous chore, and regular 6 person quests are rarely difficult even at the end fight.

[Impaqt]

****!! Am I glad that I started rerolling my 15 clr\1pally? YES!!!


Why?
:rolleyes: Another "THis is Great" with absolutely no reasoning behind it....

[Impaqt]

Ok so basically you are saying that there is no reason for anyone to bother buffing all those self sufficient warriors out there. Ok. I guess all the casters should keep that in mind in the future and not waste any Spell Points buffing anyone but themselves, since all those buffs can be gotten from other sources anyway.....gheesh.

The point is not that you could buff someone up to the gills, but that the odds of having to even consider doing this on someone who takes a major hit (for whatever reason) will be a lot lower and it will leave their buffs (from whomever cast them) intact.

If all those buffs don't matter and "any fighter relying on buffs is gimped" really is true, then why bother with buffs on any fighter anyway? Haste is a useless buff now...mmmmm, don't recall ever hearing that one before.... overpowered yah, but useless and a crutch for gimps? mmmm

Buffs are WAY overated in this game.... Haste is certainly nice.. But it a short duration.. It needs to be recast every 1:30 to 3:00 anyway.

My clerics dont buff unless a buff is requested.... Randomly throwing out buffs at the beginning of a quest is the most rediculousl waste of spell points inthe game.

[Strumpoo]

Yes yes... you do realize it's a clerk spell. You'll have to keep your arcanes happy with meteor swarming kobolds. So if destruction sounds like dropping a piano on mobs... will implosion sound like they're swallowing a piano?

But IMPLOSION!!!

what's that you say...?? cleric only.. :eek::mad::(


just kidding, I know its clerk only, sadly i won't be able to use it. but I do get excited when there are new spells listed as it means my arcanes may get some new playthings too!
:D

[maddmatt70]

Buffs are WAY overated in this game.... Haste is certainly nice.. But it a short duration.. It needs to be recast every 1:30 to 3:00 anyway.

My clerics dont buff unless a buff is requested.... Randomly throwing out buffs at the beginning of a quest is the most rediculousl waste of spell points inthe game.

I can't believe you are saying this. Obviously you don't find much value in bards. The best players are players that buff before battle - I have seen these players again and again rise above and beyond what others think is possible. Buffing was in part how vod elite was made easily beatable before this mod. Displacement in some ways the most random buff you can think but man is it powerful and it could beat vod elite almost by itself. Recitation is tremendous. How many players actually wear luck items such that prayer becomes a great spell. Mass protection from elements, mass deathward, FOM, resist energy, and the list goes on and on.

[Arkat]

My Cleric Tyrax's 25 Turn Attempts are looking even sweeter!!!

[Impaqt]

I can't believe you are saying this. Obviously you don't find much value in bards. The best players are players that buff before battle - I have seen these players again and again rise above and beyond what others think is possible. Buffing was in part how vod elite was made easily beatable before this mod. Displacement in some ways the most random buff you can think but man is it powerful and it could beat vod elite almost by itself. Recitation is tremendous. How many players actually wear luck items such that prayer becomes a great spell. Mass protection from elements, mass deathward, FOM, resist energy, and the list goes on and on.

Bard songs dont use Spell Points. Play em all ya want.. Never sauid they sucked.. Just said that if you NEED them to be effective, thats sad. I Would never hold up a quest or a raid because a Bard wasnt available though.

too man Melee have the mindset that Clerics, Arcanes, and Bards and Buff away all their worries.... THis enhancment only reinforces that thought Process. Tak ea little responsibility with your own life and you'll see buffs arent critical to this game.

[moorewr]

Please provide an example.. I'll be happy to provide youwith an alternative Tactic....

Evasion, +3 to yoru Saves, and 2 Feats is WAY better than this capstone.... No doubt about it.

Seriously FOlks.. What am I missing here???? I see all kinds of people saying this is great.... Whats so great about it? Gimme some exaples where this would be useful... You know.. More useful than a cleric who, You know.. HEALS.....

I have a pure cleric and a cleric/rogue 2.. so I see both sides.. I'm not at all upset on my MC cleric's behalf. That said I think it will be very freeing - especially in PUGs - to know that you have a free do-over if you team-mates go down... plus if it works on yourself you can combine it with death pact to make yourself very hard to get put down.

So, is it a world beater, no, of course not, but I'll probably take it if and when Alfred hits level 20...

[maddmatt70]

Bard songs dont use Spell Points. Play em all ya want.. Never sauid they sucked.. Just said that if you NEED them to be effective, thats sad. I Would never hold up a quest or a raid because a Bard wasnt available though.

too man Melee have the mindset that Clerics, Arcanes, and Bards and Buff away all their worries.... THis enhancment only reinforces that thought Process. Tak ea little responsibility with your own life and you'll see buffs arent critical to this game.

I don't think you understand my meaning and you sure don't see the value of bards, but that is another issue. Buffing is just as much a science as meleeing, healing, ccing, and offensive casting if done frequently, properly, and efficiently it can lead a party to victory just as much as the other qualities listed. The best party is the party that does all the above well. This new enhancement when used in the right situations can contribute to success as it provides the ultimate damage mitigation. Isn't that the point of enhancements to contribute to success?

[transtemporal]

Basically this enhancement is designed for non-evasion melees tanking the main boss. The benefit is you don't have to re-cast buffs due to them dying. I think thats a useful thing.

[Impaqt]

I don't think you understand my meaning and you sure don't see the value of bards, but that is another issue. Buffing is just as much a science as meleeing, healing, ccing, and offensive casting if done frequently, properly, and efficiently it can lead a party to victory just as much as the other qualities listed. The best party is the party that does all the above well. This new enhancement when used in the right situations can contribute to success as it provides the ultimate damage mitigation. Isn't that the point of enhancements to contribute to success?


I absolutely see the Value of bards. I welcome bards into any group I'm part of and I'm inthe process of leveling my own bard right now. I just dont place so much value on a bard that I'm willing to give up on a quest because one isnt readily available.

The Enhancement in Question is Tied to Turns.... Many clerics simply dont have a lot of Turns to burn on this. The Enhancemnt has a 5 Minute Limit of effectiveness. Which means it could easily run out at an inapropriet time. The Enhancment also has a Questionable "Get em back up" feature that is yet to be explained here... Do you get back up at 1 HP? at 110 from an actual Heal? Half Hit Points? Full? No one knows becaue the description is lacking in that department.

I also dont place "Winning" above having Fun. AS a primary cleric, Its my job to keep you alive... Keep your Precious buffs intact.... Whether I have this enhancment or not makes no difference to how I approch a quest.

[Alemander]

I agree. Not terribly impressed by this particular capstone. Don't see a need to reroll my 15/1 cleric/barbarian. I will just keep the party alive and if I have to rez, then so be it.

[Aesop]

Its seems like a nice effect for many clerics out there. Again nice but not necessary... which is good. We'll have to see how it plays but as long as its not planned that everyone in every fight will havethis effect up then it should be ok.


Aesop

[moorewr]

I am still curious what will be in the level 18 enhancement lines.. especially if a couple divine PrEs make it into the mix.

[Inspire]

Not terribly powerful but it has its uses.

If you have time to cast it... do it. If not, rez the party member and continue on. This enhancement is not in favor of the 6Cha Dwarf/Warforged Clerics but might be a nice "Heal" without wasting spellpoints or resources for those who need an extra few seconds.

This also lets that said party member keep thier buffs, that said Im sure my 6Cha Warforged Cleric will find a use for it, if not... I wont spend 2Ap on it, simple.

[Maegin]

I think it will be a nice addition to those that decided to play a balanced cleric, with a stat clerics in D&D should have, which is a bit of CHA, and NOT MIN MAXED OUT!!!

This is a refreshing hats off to the casual gamer who isn't a 1337 h4x04 and needs that little extra protection and not just a dv bot for loot runs/sorcs, but still usefull to the powergamer in by adding a bit more flexability with turns.

But either way, you spend a turn for sp right? So that sp could be used to cast this spell right? But this way, it assures the cleric a surefire way to prevent death by tieing it to turns, since they arnt as really disposable as SP in the heat of the moment.

*tip of the hat*

[Dexxaan]

Ok so basically you are saying that there is no reason for anyone to bother buffing all those self sufficient warriors out there. Ok. I guess all the casters should keep that in mind in the future and not waste any Spell Points buffing anyone but themselves, since all those buffs can be gotten from other sources anyway.....gheesh.

A wee bit over the top are we? And I said that where?


If all those buffs don't matter and "any fighter relying on buffs is gimped" really is true, then why bother with buffs on any fighter anyway? Haste is a useless buff now...mmmmm, don't recall ever hearing that one before.... overpowered yah, but useless and a crutch for gimps? mmmm


I believe you mised the Key Words "Can be duplicated" and your response is absolutely nonsensical given the fact that DDO also has economics involved, and although yes they can be duplicated....there´s no point in me using my rez Scroll if your Cleric can cast it.....or is there something else in your "response" I may have missed?

Read carefully.(this time):rolleyes:

[Coldest]

Please provide an example.. I'll be happy to provide youwith an alternative Tactic....

Evasion, +3 to yoru Saves, and 2 Feats is WAY better than this capstone.... No doubt about it.

Seriously FOlks.. What am I missing here???? I see all kinds of people saying this is great.... Whats so great about it? Gimme some exaples where this would be useful... You know.. More useful than a cleric who, You know.. HEALS.....

Lag deaths.

[Impaqt]

Lag deaths.

Hmmm.. I'd much rather see the Lag corrected rather than Giving us a Bandaid to bypass it.

[Aesop]

Hmmm.. I'd much rather see the Lag corrected rather than Giving us a Bandaid to bypass it.

How about its a nice option for the less than uber players that want to play a cleric

I know not a great reason but it is an option and it may be useful for some people... and clerics are pretty uber over all already :)

Aesop

[Coldest]

Hmmm.. I'd much rather see the Lag corrected rather than Giving us a Bandaid to bypass it.

You asked for an example of where this would be useful. I provided it.

[Gratch]

Hmmm... yep... decided I'd rather have Divine Intervention be a level 4 spell.

What my cleric would really like and something that feels more "capstony" is something that lets me land offensive spells more often. How about:

Deific Imbuement:
Level 20 Cleric Enhancement: 2 AP.

The cleric takes on a righteous glow from their deity to crush the heathens before them.
Benefit: Using a turn attempt, all spells cast by the cleric are heightened, given +2 DC (divine), and +4 spell penetration (divine) for the next minute.

Plus, this feels like a better ability for a turn attempt.

My cleric doesn't quite have the feats to spend on spell pen/spell focus, so it's sad they are only around for healing/bbarrier. This also shouldn't be too tough to implement while moving Divine Intervention into our spell books. :)

P.S: Also... if you could turn my cleric into a lightbulb while it's going and maybe have some choir like sounds radiating from the cleric - that would be the neat-o-keen.

P.P.S: My wizard will want something similar, though you can put it into the wizard PrC line... effect wise he'll need lightning arc'ing off of him... like there's a mini-emperor about to be tossed down a shaft in his back pocket.

[Mhykke]

Seems to me both capstones so far are good ones.

Some people like em, some people don't.

That's a good thing. Encourages some for their lvl 20's, others won't feel bad about multiclassing their clerics.

[Tyrande]

Please provide an example.. I'll be happy to provide youwith an alternative Tactic....

Evasion, +3 to yoru Saves, and 2 Feats is WAY better than this capstone.... No doubt about it.

Seriously FOlks.. What am I missing here???? I see all kinds of people saying this is great.... Whats so great about it? Gimme some exaples where this would be useful... You know.. More useful than a cleric who, You know.. HEALS.....

What if you are the only cleric in a roomful of powerful air djinns/elementals without crowd control or firewall casters and your companions are all melees and can't shoot a bow and everyone is being knocked down and can't get up?

[Mhykke]

What if you are the only cleric in a roomful of powerful air djinns/elementals without crowd control or firewall casters and your companions are all melees and can't shoot a bow and everyone is being knocked down and can't get up?

Kill the djinns/elementals yourself while the melee watch?

[Tyrande]

[...]
Deific Imbuement:
Level 20 Cleric Enhancement: 2 AP.

The cleric takes on a righteous glow from their deity to crush the heathens before them.
Benefit: Using a turn attempt, all spells cast by the cleric are heightened, given +2 DC (divine), and +4 spell penetration (divine) for the next minute.

Plus, this feels like a better ability for a turn attempt.
[...]

P.S: Also... if you could turn my cleric into a lightbulb while it's going and maybe have some choir like sounds radiating from the cleric - that would be the neat-o-keen.



I like this capstone you said. If this get implemented *and* Divine Intervention I am *definitely* rolling a pure warforged cleric.

[Tyrande]

Kill the djinns/elementals yourself while the melee watch?

problem is, you are probably on your back most of the time as well.

Also, your destruction DC probably won't be high enough. Prepared the max empowered BBs before you lie on your back? may be.

[Impaqt]

What if you are the only cleric in a roomful of powerful air djinns/elementals without crowd control or firewall casters and your companions are all melees and can't shoot a bow and everyone is being knocked down and can't get up?

How in the world would this enhancement actualy help in that situation?

[bobbryan2]

How in the world would this enhancement actualy help in that situation?

Well obviously... it would prolong the demonstration of terrible game design. Letting you see over and over again how ridiculous the current implementation of air elementals is.

[Dexxaan]

Well obviously... it would prolong the demonstration of terrible game design. Letting you see over and over again how ridiculous the current implementation of air elementals is.

ROFL.

Nice.....Masochistic...but nice. :D

[Deathseeker]

But its NOT a 5 Minute "God Mode" at all.... Its a Stop me from Dying once spell that Fades ina few seconds once your incapped.... How is this gonna help charaters getting subjected to AOE damage? How bout Buring Blood? How about a pidly little acid arrow?

Since this is TIed to DV's and NOT Spell Points, I cant see players clamoring for it.... this will be used exclusivly at the clerics discression.....

Impaqt, I don't think you are wrong, but I don't see it quite as extreme as you do. Especially on using this in lieu of dv's.

I can't use dv's on myself. But if this saves me a rez, then I've saved SP I would have used, thus in effect saving myself SP at the cost of a DV.

I think you are underestimating the SP value of the buffs this may save. If I rez someone, they are buffless. If this kicks in, they go incap isntead, and then I heal them up (forget the heal portion of this spell), how much mana was saved for me or others in keeping their buffs up? I bet more than a DV.

Looks like it costs a whopping 2 action points, not exactly much investment.

Here's how I see it...
If you already chose to go with a 2 level dip, this isn't going to change your mind.
If you already chose to go pure, this is a nice little option (assuming you kept some charisma).
If you are on the fence, this helps tip the scale back a little bit toward the pure build.
If you were planning on dumping charisma/turns, this won't be enough to change your mind.
If you found turning abilities fun/useful, this is a nice bonus.

Frankly, the more I think about it, I really think they hit it right on the nose. Subtle enough not to wipe out multiclassing at all, but nice enough to give a bump to those going all the way to 20.

The fact that the feedback on it seems mixed means its probably a good balance...it's like they say, a good compromise is one in which everyone is miserable!

[Lymnus]

Will it retain it's use now that we'll be getting True Res?

Hmm.

[HumanJHawkins]

<cut> If the target is knocked unconscious, this effect will heal the target after a few seconds and then fade.<cut>

I hope this gets heavily play-tested in real quests. It will be useless if the effect fades within seconds... Just about everything past level 6 continues agroing on you until you are dead via coup de gras.

It sounds like this will have the wonderful effect of postponing your death by "a few seconds" more often than not.

One way to fix that would be to make the effect go away whenever you have not been hit again within the last "few seconds"

[Aspenor]

I actually would rather have gotten Delay Death, over this enhancement. It's much better, and it's actually USEFUL.

Instead of keeping you at -9, it allows you to go as low as you like without dying. You can be standing up swinging at -241 hit points if you like, as long as by the time the spell's duration is over you are back above 0.

If you're not, you either die, or fall unconscious (depending on your hp remaining).

[Grinndal]

I really am disappointed with the weak capstone for a cleric. If I have the time to heal someone from that close to dead then i have time to cast a raise. The only benefit is that they could keep there buffs. And if everyone wante it then i would have to put more AP into extra turns when I already use enough for healing marks. You know I would think that the devs would want to make things better for the one class that over time has lost some of its fun.

[Grinndal]

P.S: Also... if you could turn my cleric into a lightbulb while it's going and maybe have some choir like sounds radiating from the cleric - that would be the neat-o-keen.

P.P.S: My wizard will want something similar, though you can put it into the wizard PrC line... effect wise he'll need lightning arc'ing off of him... like there's a mini-emperor about to be tossed down a shaft in his back pocket.

ROFLMAO

The wizard should walk around looking like the guy from Big Trouble in Little China.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

The beloved Clerics of Stormreach gain a new tool in the next module with their Capstone Enhancement for keeping their charges (or themselves) alive.

Divine Intervention
Prereq: Level 20 Cleric, 74 Action points spent
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You are a strong conduit of positive energy, and can expend a turn attempt to ward your target for five minutes against mortal damage - hit point damage will not lower their hit point total below -9. If the target is knocked unconscious, this effect will heal the target after a few seconds and then fade.

Players that have gone through the Korthos Island experience may remember Cellimas' Protection from Death effect - this is an altered version of that tutorial spell. Essentially, while this effect is on your target, they cannot die from hit point damage. Instant death effects like Implosion or Finger of Death bypass this protection, however, so keep those Deathblock items on, and it fades a few seconds after being forced to activate. Still, that's one less dead person!

Today's activity is "guess what this enhancement was originally called". :)

As normal with previews, duration, cooldown, and effects are still subject to change.


It's an interesting idea, but I think it should be an "until shrine or death" effect, or perhaps 1min/level (so 20 minutes). 5 minutes is such a short duration buff when it has to be cast one person at a time on the party, probably with a cool down timer of some kind between casts.

Oh, nice slip on the release of the Implosion spell BTW :D I can't wait to see how you manage to duplicate 1 spell killing 4 selected creatures over 4 rounds.


Implosion
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Destruction 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One corporeal creature/round
Duration: Concentration (up to 4 rounds)
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You create a destructive resonance in a corporeal creature’s body. For each round you concentrate, you cause one creature to collapse in on itself, killing it. (This effect, being instantaneous, cannot be dispelled.)

You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell.

Implosion has no effect on creatures in gaseous form or on incorporeal creatures.

[moorewr]

I think the ones who will like this the most are the fighting clerics.. drop this suckah on your party and ignore their healing during the fight.. at least until they've dropped the first time...

From that standpoint I do think ti will be useful.. PUG getting you down? Give them a life insurance policy and go lay some smackdown of your own down...

Maybe. :rolleyes:

[muffinlad]

I want to echo some points already made-

A) Make the duration 10 min. 5 min is too little. It may be more than enough for some higher end players, but everyone who plays can make 20, and it needs to be set for a medium level of competency.
B) This is hardly godmode, but it is worth two AP, and the Turns to keep people from losing buffs when they go down. There are even times when it may be a disadvantage (no running for a res out of a room, etc.)

Regards,

muffincleric

[Quanefel]

ROFLMAO

The wizard should walk around looking like the guy from Big Trouble in Little China.

Or what about his cool body guards? Heck, I'd be happy if they gave us those large oversized straw hats they wore for our monks! :D

[moorewr]

Or what about his cool body guards? Heck, I'd be happy if they gave us those large oversized straw hats they wore for our monks! :D

man, I made a silly graphic and now I see images aren't allowed in the cleric forum. ah well.
http://home.eckerd.edu/~moorewr/lj/image/ddo/wfhat.png

[cardmj1]

The beloved Clerics of Stormreach gain a new tool in the next module with their Capstone Enhancement for keeping their charges (or themselves) alive.

Divine Intervention
Prereq: Level 20 Cleric, 74 Action points spent
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: You are a strong conduit of positive energy, and can expend a turn attempt to ward your target for five minutes against mortal damage - hit point damage will not lower their hit point total below -9. If the target is knocked unconscious, this effect will heal the target after a few seconds and then fade.

Players that have gone through the Korthos Island experience may remember Cellimas' Protection from Death effect - this is an altered version of that tutorial spell. Essentially, while this effect is on your target, they cannot die from hit point damage. Instant death effects like Implosion or Finger of Death bypass this protection, however, so keep those Deathblock items on, and it fades a few seconds after being forced to activate. Still, that's one less dead person!

Today's activity is "guess what this enhancement was originally called". :)

As normal with previews, duration, cooldown, and effects are still subject to change.

It sounds nice and I can see it's usefulness is certain situations. But to be honest, I was hoping for the ability to dv myself. Oh well...

But thank you for the info. Keep them coming.

[cardmj1]

problem is, you are probably on your back most of the time as well.

Also, your destruction DC probably won't be high enough. Prepared the max empowered BBs before you lie on your back? may be.

Hit quicken then implosion. Then hit banish, a couple of destructs. Then tell the rest of the party to get off their duffs and the clean the place up.

[JayDubya]

hmmmm. I admit I've been out of circulation for a bit (since August, really), but I'm intrigued by the possibilities. If I wander back in my memories and think about the various PuG quests I've clericced in where:

a) One player was not very good at aggro management and would regularly die
b) There was a penalty box (Stormreaver/Shroud) and some inexperienced players
c) There was a massive boss fight that went kinda wrong and we're running out of resources, but we're still at it
d) You're playing permadeath
e) You're running through a quest/raid when it's still fairly new, and you need to find a shrine soon, and dying is going to make it that much harder to succeed
f) You're running a quest for the very first time with no spoilers, and you sense a big boss battle ahead


A lot of the people who are underwhelmed by this are high-skill players who play with other high-skill players. People who are comfortable re-rolling builds that turn out to be gimpy at level 14 or 16. You're looking at this ability and saying 'why would this help me and my high-performing friends?'. And you're right - it probably wouldn't - if you're already a world-class marathon runner, a new shoe is not likely to give you any meaningful benefit.

But if you have weak arches or bad heels, a new shoe might make the difference between being able to run 6 miles vs not running at all.

And that's where I see it coming in handy - playing with the guy with the gimp-ish build that he's still emotionally attached to. Or for the guy playing his first cleric, and he's not that fast on the heals yet, or he sometimes forgets and gets into battle lust.

If you're already a great player, and you play with other great players, I can totally see why this is unimportant. You've already got the teamwork, the diligence, the practice and all the other benefits that experience and talent give you. If your quest is already spiralling out of control, this is not likely to bring it back.

But for the great unwashed masses, this really does represent a lifeline for a second chance. It's not going to magically fix the problems with a poorly-meshed party. It's not going to turn that glass cannon into a tank. And yeah, maybe that turn could hae been spent on a DV instead, and a good percentage of the time, it's a turn wasted. But I can definitely see this kind of insurance policy making some PuGs a little less stressful, and a little more fun for the cleric.

[Zenako]

hmmmm. I admit I've been out of circulation for a bit (since August, really), but I'm intrigued by the possibilities. If I wander back in my memories and think about the various PuG quests I've clericced in where:

a) One player was not very good at aggro management and would regularly die
b) There was a penalty box (Stormreaver/Shroud) and some inexperienced players
c) There was a massive boss fight that went kinda wrong and we're running out of resources, but we're still at it
d) You're playing permadeath
e) You're running through a quest/raid when it's still fairly new, and you need to find a shrine soon, and dying is going to make it that much harder to succeed
f) You're running a quest for the very first time with no spoilers, and you sense a big boss battle ahead


A lot of the people who are underwhelmed by this are high-skill players who play with other high-skill players. People who are comfortable re-rolling builds that turn out to be gimpy at level 14 or 16. You're looking at this ability and saying 'why would this help me and my high-performing friends?'. And you're right - it probably wouldn't - if you're already a world-class marathon runner, a new shoe is not likely to give you any meaningful benefit.

But if you have weak arches or bad heels, a new shoe might make the difference between being able to run 6 miles vs not running at all.

And that's where I see it coming in handy - playing with the guy with the gimp-ish build that he's still emotionally attached to. Or for the guy playing his first cleric, and he's not that fast on the heals yet, or he sometimes forgets and gets into battle lust.

If you're already a great player, and you play with other great players, I can totally see why this is unimportant. You've already got the teamwork, the diligence, the practice and all the other benefits that experience and talent give you. If your quest is already spiralling out of control, this is not likely to bring it back.

But for the great unwashed masses, this really does represent a lifeline for a second chance. It's not going to magically fix the problems with a poorly-meshed party. It's not going to turn that glass cannon into a tank. And yeah, maybe that turn could hae been spent on a DV instead, and a good percentage of the time, it's a turn wasted. But I can definitely see this kind of insurance policy making some PuGs a little less stressful, and a little more fun for the cleric.


All of those are great reasons why it could be great, but don't forget you only get access to it at 20th level Cleric. Permadeath???:eek::eek: They are just now getting past Vons in general. Lots of times the level range it would be greatly useful in would be the 9-10 range when thinking back. I can see quite a few uses for it. I have been pleasantly surprised how useful Stalwart Pact has been and even Death Pact too. Both have come into play quite a few times. A lot of the new cleric stuff has lots of lurking value that is only slowly becoming more obvious to all.

[Grinndal]

hmmmm. I admit I've been out of circulation for a bit (since August, really), but I'm intrigued by the possibilities. If I wander back in my memories and think about the various PuG quests I've clericced in where:

a) One player was not very good at aggro management and would regularly die
b) There was a penalty box (Stormreaver/Shroud) and some inexperienced players
c) There was a massive boss fight that went kinda wrong and we're running out of resources, but we're still at it
d) You're playing permadeath
e) You're running through a quest/raid when it's still fairly new, and you need to find a shrine soon, and dying is going to make it that much harder to succeed
f) You're running a quest for the very first time with no spoilers, and you sense a big boss battle ahead


A lot of the people who are underwhelmed by this are high-skill players who play with other high-skill players. People who are comfortable re-rolling builds that turn out to be gimpy at level 14 or 16. You're looking at this ability and saying 'why would this help me and my high-performing friends?'. And you're right - it probably wouldn't - if you're already a world-class marathon runner, a new shoe is not likely to give you any meaningful benefit.

But if you have weak arches or bad heels, a new shoe might make the difference between being able to run 6 miles vs not running at all.

And that's where I see it coming in handy - playing with the guy with the gimp-ish build that he's still emotionally attached to. Or for the guy playing his first cleric, and he's not that fast on the heals yet, or he sometimes forgets and gets into battle lust.

If you're already a great player, and you play with other great players, I can totally see why this is unimportant. You've already got the teamwork, the diligence, the practice and all the other benefits that experience and talent give you. If your quest is already spiralling out of control, this is not likely to bring it back.

But for the great unwashed masses, this really does represent a lifeline for a second chance. It's not going to magically fix the problems with a poorly-meshed party. It's not going to turn that glass cannon into a tank. And yeah, maybe that turn could hae been spent on a DV instead, and a good percentage of the time, it's a turn wasted. But I can definitely see this kind of insurance policy making some PuGs a little less stressful, and a little more fun for the cleric.

I seem underwhelmed becasue the other capstones they have put out seem really good but yet they seem to waste very little time with the MOST IMPORTANT CLASS in the game. Now I know a lot of us do clericless groups but the clericis are what binds especially pug groups together. And the devs think of them as an after thought. 2 ap is so little but that is also how it appears that they are treating clerics.

And your other point. A level 20 pure cleric is probably pretty skilled and will probably be running with other skilled players exclusively. Believe I run a pure level 16 28point gimp build cleric but he can heal like the best of them. Now maybe at level 3 I could use this to protect the squishy caster that keeps getting one hitted but to make it sound special and be for level 20 is ridiculous.

[Aesop]

I seem underwhelmed becasue the other capstones they have put out seem really good but yet they seem to waste very little time with the MOST IMPORTANT CLASS in the game. Now I know a lot of us do clericless groups but the clericis are what binds especially pug groups together. And the devs think of them as an after thought. 2 ap is so little but that is also how it appears that they are treating clerics.

And your other point. A level 20 pure cleric is probably pretty skilled and will probably be running with other skilled players exclusively. Believe I run a pure level 16 28point gimp build cleric but he can heal like the best of them. Now maybe at level 3 I could use this to protect the squishy caster that keeps getting one hitted but to make it sound special and be for level 20 is ridiculous.

1.Every class is important
2.They've only released 1 other capstone at this point so I'm not sure what you thought the power level should be
3. Everyone can level it isn't that hard. In fact because of the perception that clerics are "essential" its even easier for them to. To assume that you'll only have LEET players at that level is a far jump.
4.We have no idea what the level 20 content is going to be like. If it includes massive rapid fire damage from all sides this could be useful. If we have NPC crowd control that has the possibliity to disable the party for a short time and then cause massive damage this could be useful. To assume that you can meet all challenges when we don't know what they are is arrogance not confidence.
5. don't like it don't take it. it isn't mandatory and shouldn't be as that devalues other build options.
6. clerics are already one of the most powerful classes at that level and really don't need anything to over emphasize that

just saying its neat and could be useful but shouldn't be mandatory

Aesop

[zavozod]

This spell too powerfull. It will unbalance the game.

[Mhykke]

This spell too powerfull. It will unbalance the game.

It's not a spell, and how will it unbalance anything?

[cardmj1]

This spell too powerfull. It will unbalance the game.

How in the world of Stormreach does this ability make the game unbalanced? You go incapped instead of dying. That's it in a nut shell.

[Strumpoo]

.

P.P.S: My wizard will want something similar, though you can put it into the wizard PrC line... effect wise he'll need lightning arc'ing off of him... like there's a mini-emperor about to be tossed down a shaft in his back pocket.

Yes please...!

And the lightbulb cleric thing is good too! :D

[Fennario]

This certainly is not going to make me regret my 14/2 cleric/monk.

Its also probably not going to inspire me to bring my 16 cleric out of retirement.

Pretty underwhelming if you ask me. (no, nobody asked me, but I answered anyway :p)

[Naso24]

how about bards that get booted from vod runs for not having ac songs? how about pallys that get booted from same runs and more for not having plus5 aura? how about MY CLERIC that i have now not getting into a shroud at least twice because i dont have, and i swear to god here, MASS DEATH WARD??? how about bards that were not warchanters being booted from the shroud when it first came out?


really, maybe you dont ever have to pug but i do. and the perception people might have of this enhancment is that it is a necessary tool to win if there are quests where for example you are seperated forcefully from your other party members. or where the damage in an aoe is just so severe that anyone without evasion HAS to have this if they dont have 600 hp.

Your server seems very harsh. I have not experienced the same things in PUGS. I also run a 14/2 cleric-monk. I haven't seen others get booted for any of the listed. The closest I have seen is reserving a spot for an intimitank in raids - not the same thing.

[Jondallar]

Lag deaths.


You asked for an example of where this would be useful. I provided it.


It would also be helpful to have on a night out with my mom.... she's a beast.

[Jondallar]

Today's activity is "guess what this enhancement was originally called". :)



Die Harder

"Dont Die" ... as a reference to what is need to sucessfully defeat the Abbot and overcome death penalty

[Grinndal]

1.Every class is important
2.They've only released 1 other capstone at this point so I'm not sure what you thought the power level should be
3. Everyone can level it isn't that hard. In fact because of the perception that clerics are "essential" its even easier for them to. To assume that you'll only have LEET players at that level is a far jump.
4.We have no idea what the level 20 content is going to be like. If it includes massive rapid fire damage from all sides this could be useful. If we have NPC crowd control that has the possibliity to disable the party for a short time and then cause massive damage this could be useful. To assume that you can meet all challenges when we don't know what they are is arrogance not confidence.
5. don't like it don't take it. it isn't mandatory and shouldn't be as that devalues other build options.
6. clerics are already one of the most powerful classes at that level and really don't need anything to over emphasize that

just saying its neat and could be useful but shouldn't be mandatory

Aesop

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=164684
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=165097
Unless I am wrong the kensai string does provide a capstone also. So that would be 2.
We have had some high level not so good clerics floating around but they are indetified by the masses and not grouped with.
So if there is massive rapid fire physical damage the cleric will just hang on back until everyone is incapped and jump out and heal. Yeah!
I won't be taking it I just was hoping for something to make clerics more interesting.
And I don't agree that they are the most powerful class in the game. They have been overlooked for mod after mod while rangers get tempest and palys get better enhancements rogues get lines of enhancements. And clerics get hard to heal raids with no good cleric rewards (VOD). Its not that I have a problem with healing becasue it used to be loads of fun but clerics have gotten no love and less and less fun mod after mod.

[CrimsonEagle]

I can see this being useful. Now the party can not complain that the cleric let them die!!!

Cast your offensive spells to your hearts content.

Watch all of the party fall one by one because they refuse to take care of themselves.

Kill offending mobs.

Cast a couple cure serious charges and let party members heal themselves up the rest of the way.

Repeat.

This sounds fun.

Yes, I hate healbots with a passion. Antithesis of D&D.

Crimson.

[Aesop]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=164684
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=165097
Unless I am wrong the kensai string does provide a capstone also. So that would be 2.

Incorrect Kensai is not a capstone its a PrE


We have had some high level not so good clerics floating around but they are indetified by the masses and not grouped with.


I must run into them a lot then cause I've met plenty at cap. I stick by the leveling isn't difficult and we will end up with clerics that can use this


So if there is massive rapid fire physical damage the cleric will just hang on back until everyone is incapped and jump out and heal. Yeah!


Considering Death Pact spell (once fixed) this is not an unreasonable thought process

I won't be taking it I just was hoping for something to make clerics more interesting.


Then you should hope for Cleric PrEs and Domains not a uber Capstone. Clerics have plenty of reason to go to level 20 without some uber made up ability to fill the gap.


And I don't agree that they are the most powerful class in the game. They have been overlooked for mod after mod while rangers get tempest and palys get better
enhancements rogues get lines of enhancements.


Clerics are the most powerful Healing class, with good damage effects, good armor selection, decent combat ability, superior spell selections and numerous effects that set them far ahead of the pack while being the most sought after class in any quest. Yes they certainly qualify as one of the most powerful. Everyone else is just trying to catch up


And clerics get hard to heal raids with no good cleric rewards (VOD). Its not that I have a problem with healing becasue it used to be loads of fun but clerics have gotten no love and less and less fun mod after mod.

Again don't look for this to be Cleric love this is Pure Class Love. A little bonus that the Pure Class gets for being dedicated... You want cleric love start posting for Caster and Cleric PrEs and Clerical Domains... then you'd have some love. Also Clerics love will be coming in the form of Spells for Mod 9 as well. A 2AP enhancement shouldn't be seen as the only light at the end of the tunnel



Aesop

[Grinndal]

Again don't look for this to be Cleric love this is Pure Class Love. A little bonus that the Pure Class gets for being dedicated... You want cleric love start posting for Caster and Cleric PrEs and Clerical Domains... then you'd have some love. Also Clerics love will be coming in the form of Spells for Mod 9 as well. A 2AP enhancement shouldn't be seen as the only light at the end of the tunnel
Aesop

kk. I have never multiclassed any character. I will agree with you though. Just maybe the word CAPSTONE makes me think this is important when it really is just some measley thing. Maybe it will helpeful but not so much of an intricate part of a build as the name implies.

Of course 2ap for +10 concentration like the monks get for a cleric would really be worth it.

[Original]

I was hoping for something good... this is weak except maybe at lower levels.
Guess monk splash is the only way to go now... nothing to look forward to :(

[kinar]

In honor of this capstone...I rolled a new cleric over the weekend.

Level 1 Rogue...

[Gaermain]

I can see this being useful. Now the party can not complain that the cleric let them die!!!

Cast your offensive spells to your hearts content.

Watch all of the party fall one by one because they refuse to take care of themselves.

Kill offending mobs.

Cast a couple cure serious charges and let party members heal themselves up the rest of the way.

Repeat.

This sounds fun.

Yes, I hate healbots with a passion. Antithesis of D&D.

Crimson.

/agree

The only thing that would make this better is the party falling in close enough proximity to one another to allow one mass cure spell instead of individual cure spells...

[Ustice]

To those that are dissatisfied with this capstone enhancement, keep in mind that he said that these are just the FIRST set, and not the only ones, but that they will be exclusive (one PrE line, and one capstone).

Speaking of which, how are things looking for the level 18 Enhancements for the Faith lines? :)

[sephiroth1084]

I like this. It has that "wow! this is cool!" factor, without being so powerful as to invalidate multi-classing, or draw all build designs to it like a tiny black hole sitting at lvl 20.

As for the ability's usefulness...there are many instances where, if you die, you more or less have a death sentence for the rest of the quest (chunks of VoD for example), because you lost your buffs, and have a death penalty. I just hope that, while the ability is active, it prevents death still...so that, if you get knocked to -10, and get saved at -9, the next attack that comes in doesn't then drop you to -150.

[query]

"Delay Death" until you saw it was taken.

And 11 pages on this bickering?

Give it a rest folks. My 1 fighter x cleric WF of Blades won't become ruined from this, nor will any 20+ cleric become god mode. Fair enough but not too over or underpowered.

[BlackSteel]

someone hurry up and take this capstone...

the frenzied berzeker thread needs some divine intervention STAT

[Demoyn]

I hate it, personally. The only 20 level required enhancement in the game, and it's put on the cleric? It completely invalidates the battle cleric, and pulls from the same pool that DV and DH do, further reducing the utility of the healing cleric.

[moorewr]

I hate it, personally. The only 20 level required enhancement in the game, and it's put on the cleric? It completely invalidates the battle cleric, and pulls from the same pool that DV and DH do, further reducing the utility of the healing cleric.

You've missed the background here.. from what Eladrin says there's going to be "capstones" for every class.

How does it invalidate the Battle Cleric?

If you'd rather have more DVs available, isn't that up to you?

[Demoyn]

A true battle cleric requires a level of either fighter or barbarian for the extra damage and enhancements. Yes, it's your choice to use less DVs, but a capstone should be a benefit, not a tradeoff.

[Aesop]

A true battle cleric requires a level of either fighter or barbarian for the extra damage and enhancements. Yes, it's your choice to use less DVs, but a capstone should be a benefit, not a tradeoff.

Actually that's the whole point of the Capstones... a benefit for the Pure Class. Because MC has the potential to be more powerful than most pure classes... particularly Rogues actually


Aesop

[Mhykke]

A true battle cleric requires a level of either fighter or barbarian for the extra damage and enhancements. Yes, it's your choice to use less DVs, but a capstone should be a benefit, not a tradeoff.

You gain abilities by multiclassing. You gain a very minor ability w/ this capstone (all classes get their own capstones) by staying pure.

This thing is no big deal.

[moorewr]

A true battle cleric requires a level of either fighter or barbarian for the extra damage and enhancements. Yes, it's your choice to use less DVs, but a capstone should be a benefit, not a tradeoff.

BC splash: I'm trying not to reply "well, duh." So you wouldn't have this enhancement anyway, and why are you providing DVs at all on a BC? How many turns do you have? Three?

DVs: everything's a trade off. For DVs, look at pallies. Look at faith lines. The question is if the ability is worth the cost to those who choose to use it.

[slumbering_dragon]

the Beloved Clerics Of Stormreach Gain A New Tool In The Next Module With Their Capstone Enhancement For Keeping Their Charges (or Themselves) Alive.

divine Intervention
prereq: level 20 Cleric, 74 Action Points Spent
cost: 2 Ap
benefit: you Are A Strong Conduit Of Positive Energy, And Can Expend A Turn Attempt To Ward Your Target For Five Minutes Against Mortal Damage - Hit Point Damage Will Not Lower Their Hit Point Total Below -9. If The Target Is Knocked Unconscious, This Effect Will Heal The Target After A Few Seconds And Then Fade.

Players That Have Gone Through The Korthos Island Experience May Remember Cellimas' Protection From Death Effect - This Is An Altered Version Of That Tutorial Spell. Essentially, While This Effect Is On Your Target, They Cannot Die From Hit Point Damage. Instant Death Effects Like Implosion Or Finger Of Death Bypass This Protection, However, So Keep Those Deathblock Items On, And It Fades A Few Seconds After Being Forced To Activate. Still, That's One Less Dead Person!

Today's Activity Is "guess What This Enhancement Was Originally Called". :)

as Normal With Previews, Duration, Cooldown, And Effects Are Still Subject To Change.


Implosion?? Is This A Spell?

[Angelus_dead]

Implosion?? Is This A Spell?
Implosion is a level 9 cleric spell that fatally squishes 4 different enemies unless they pass a Fortitude save.

There's the question of if it will work on undeads and constructs:
By the D&D rules it does not, because undeads and constructs are specifically immune to anything with a fort save, unless it also works on objects.

However in DDO that rule is not enforced, and undeads can be affected by a spell like Flesh To Stone. Thus it's possible Implosion will do zombies as well.

[sephiroth1084]

[Edit} Nevermind.

[Desteria]

Implosion is a level 9 cleric spell that fatally squishes 4 different enemies unless they pass a Fortitude save. Because it collapses the body, it can work on many kinds of undead and constructs.

to be more specific... from the SRD

Implosion
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Destruction 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One corporeal creature/round
Duration: Concentration (up to 4 rounds)
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You create a destructive resonance in a corporeal creature’s body. For each round you concentrate, you cause one creature to collapse in on itself, killing it. (This effect, being instantaneous, cannot be dispelled.)

You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell.

Implosion has no effect on creatures in gaseous form or on incorporeal creatures.




..... VERY fun spell when you use it ... VERY unfun when THE badguys use it....
Fights at apl12 at CR+4 with a bunch of slads can get VERY VERY ugly!!!!!!!!! gogogo LG silly mods.

[seldarin]

More useful than a cleric who, You know.. HEALS.....

Being that close to 60 percent of current clerics would be hard pressed to be called healing clerics, you know like um, those with 1 lvl of fighter and dorfs etc, that wield swords and DAs and woebetide if you get incapped, cos your gonna be screwed, it may have its uses.

Whilst the sentiment of a cleric that heals is valid, sadly the vast majority of clerics dont fall into that bracket.

Or maybe its just my server :)

[seldarin]

I hate it, personally. The only 20 level required enhancement in the game, and it's put on the cleric? It completely invalidates the battle cleric, and pulls from the same pool that DV and DH do, further reducing the utility of the healing cleric.

The only thing that reduces the utility of a healing cleric is peoples mindset.

Let me see if i get this correct though, you want to have the benefits of splash classing with fighter or something else for your "battle cleric", that term does make me laugh quite a bit at times, AND you also want to have what a pure class has available? So basically you want all your cake and eat it with no restrictions. Not willing to trade off anything?

[Desteria]

The only thing that reduces the utility of a healing cleric is peoples mindset.

Let me see if i get this correct though, you want to have the benefits of splash classing with fighter or something else for your "battle cleric", that term does make me laugh quite a bit at times, AND you also want to have what a pure class has available? So basically you want all your cake and eat it with no restrictions. Not willing to trade off anything?

hahaha that about what i read in to his post to :)

[HumanJHawkins]

<cut>"battle cleric", that term does make me laugh quite a bit at times<cut>

Nah man. Battle Clerics are awesome. As long as you call them by their proper name: "Paladin". :D

[Borror0]

Nah man. Battle Clerics are awesome. As long as you call them by their proper name: "Paladin". :D
By that you mean that battle clerics pwn paladins, right?

[HumanJHawkins]

By that you mean that battle clerics pwn paladins, right?

I was just kidding. But I don't get what a "battle cleric" is. I have a 100% healer type cleric. And if I ever want to kill something, I just pick up a superior potency item and drop a blade barrier. Then there are a few "one-off" spells for special situations (maybe put on a napkin and pick up greater spell pen for those).

This doesn't degrade my ability to heal at all, and I can't imagine anything I could do to the build to make any type of physical combat more effective than that.

So why would someone want to build a "battle cleric" when healer type clerics are already killing machines? And if you want to be a self-healing melee build, why not just be a Ranger with Pally splash?

[Borror0]

And if you want to be a self-healing melee build, why not just be a Ranger with Pally splash?
Rangers have worse self-healing has neither Blade Barrier or Destruction.

[HumanJHawkins]

Rangers have worse self-healing has neither Blade Barrier or Destruction.

What do blade barrier and destruction have to do with melee?

[Borror0]

What do blade barrier and destruction have to do with melee?
Nothing. But they are cool.

What does Fascinate has to do with melee? Nothing. That doesn't stop my Warchanter from using it.

[Zenako]

Nothing. But they are cool.

What does Fascinate has to do with melee? Nothing. That doesn't stop my Warchanter from using it.

Exactly, the objective is not melee per se, but removing the enemy mobs from the encounter. Meleeing them is one option, as is killing them with spells, or forcing them to work for you (except in those annoying situations where the code requires you to kill the enemy mobs before the quest advances...grrr)

[query]

like fighting, thus BATTLE CLERICS...they got turns and spells also, but tell a lord of blades follower NOT to be a battle cleric!


Oh, update: Kenny the Dink (of Sublime Permadeath) is one of the pc's to hit level FIFTEEN. Any other permadeath players want to reflect (or even beat) that?

Sorry if we don't cap in 3 days and go bored out of our skulls folks :p


Not even in VON, riiiiiight.

[Mani]

Please provide an example.. I'll be happy to provide youwith an alternative Tactic....

Evasion, +3 to yoru Saves, and 2 Feats is WAY better than this capstone.... No doubt about it.

Seriously FOlks.. What am I missing here???? I see all kinds of people saying this is great.... Whats so great about it? Gimme some exaples where this would be useful... You know.. More useful than a cleric who, You know.. HEALS.....

Its new, like the new mustang. Everyone wants it. LOL

[Mani]

Being that close to 60 percent of current clerics would be hard pressed to be called healing clerics, you know like um, those with 1 lvl of fighter and dorfs etc, that wield swords and DAs and woebetide if you get incapped, cos your gonna be screwed, it may have its uses.

Whilst the sentiment of a cleric that heals is valid, sadly the vast majority of clerics dont fall into that bracket.

Or maybe its just my server :)

Well said

[Cristian717]

good, but my bulid will be 18clr/2monk, no chance to get this enchantment.

[HumanJHawkins]

Exactly, the objective is not melee per se, but removing the enemy mobs from the encounter. Meleeing them is one option, as is killing them with spells, or forcing them to work for you (except in those annoying situations where the code requires you to kill the enemy mobs before the quest advances...grrr)

Yes, but you guys are missing the original point... My healing spec'd Cleric can (and does) do all of those things except melee. And there are very few cases where melee is better than the spells you point out here.

So why would a Cleric allow his healing and combat magic to be weakened by taking levels from melee classes? It seems like sacrificing your really powerful stuff to improve your ability in weaker stuff.

[Angelus_dead]

Yes, but you guys are missing the original point... My healing spec'd Cleric can (and does) do all of those things except melee. And there are very few cases where melee is better than the spells you point out here.
What do you do about like, Frost Giants?

[Ganidel]

I'd say they need to either make this instant cast so it can save ppl, or make it stay on you tell used like Death Pact, making it instant cast makes it a divine shield agenst death.

If it will take as long as DV's to cast it needs to be like death pact and not run out tell used, yea Turn skills dont take that long to cast but when someones about to die it either needs to be fast or already on, and 5 mins isnt very long and you cant see if its still on them unless you inspect them and with like 15 plus buffs on thats hard to find in the inspect list.

[Desteria]

What do you do about like, Frost Giants?

I drop commets on there heads they fall down go boom....

[AnubisPrime]

I've seen some well made multiclass characters, and they served their purposes well. I've kept mine pure class because that's what I like to do. I like support characters as much as some folks like close-up melee. My supposition is (and I could be wrong) that in some cases, especially in some high level dungeons/instances that multiclassing squishy with melee is not overly advantageous. (sort of what a previous poster stated--it's like investing to make something weak a little less weak). I'm not overly sure if this is true but I suppose it's how the player plays the character???

With this capstone let's just say I'm glad I made an investment in Charisma! ;)