Large scales

[Thame]

When do you plan to fix the drop rate on large scales. Everyone knows its not the same as other ingredients. Or is this by design to make people grind?

[Thelmallen]

I posted this very thing a few months ago and got a response from Eladrin that states the drop rate for large scales is the same as everything else. I find that hard to believe, the increased usage of large scales in recipes notwithstanding, considering how nearly every post in every server's marketplace people are almost exclusively looking for large scales.

Beats me :shrug:

[fishbai8]

my guess if drop rate is the same maybe most popular items require more scales than anything and thats why it seems they're hard to come by

[Riggs]

ingredient quartermaster.

People should not be penalized for bad luck when it is a design decision to make one ingredient more valuable than the rest, and a short streak can mean you cant do anything with your ingredients because your always missing scales.

[Alavatar]

I propose an NPC, similar to the one in Gianthold, that will exchange ingrediants on a 3:1 ratio. Give the NPC 3 Large Bones, get 1 Large Scale.

(That sounds so naughty...)

[krud]

people should go through their inventory on all their shroud capable characters, and see how many total large ingredients they've pulled. Also, add in the ingredients you already used in crafting, and if possible estimate anything given/received. It will give everyone a better idea on how lopsided the pulls really are, instead of these general "large scales don't drop enough" complaint.

After 42 shroud completions (and a few pt4 only completions) here's my large ingredient totals:

scales 10
shrapnel 5
arrow 8
stone 10
chain 16
bones 10

I don't mind the lack of shrapnel since they aren't used much, but if I pull another chain i'll scream (I offer them for trade 3:1 i've pulled so many). Otherwise it looks balanced.

[boldarblood]

They are the same drop rate. The problem is the amount of scales that are used is much greater than any of the others.

[RobbinB]

Not having a vendor to exchange ingredient types seems very unfair to the casual player who probably still hasn't gotten enough large scales to craft even a single tier 3 item after all these months.

Given that they did something similar with GH so they already know how to do it, it seems like a no-brainer. (Translation: don't hold your breath. I'm sure breaking the Abbott raid 13 more times in interesting new ways is a higher priority.)

[Thame]

They are the same drop rate. The problem is the amount of scales that are used is much greater than any of the others.

yo fanboi they arent the same just because you seem to have all the luck doesnt mean its working correctly

[Delt]

yo fanboi they arent the same just because you seem to have all the luck doesnt mean its working correctly

Uhh, they are the same drop rate. Everything he said was correct...spend less time calling people fanboi's and more time posting correct information.

Btw - I fully agree with some sort of ingrediant quartermaster. I was certain we'd see that obvious addition in Mod 8, but I guess I put too much faith in Turbine sometimes.

[boldarblood]

yo fanboi they arent the same just because you seem to have all the luck doesnt mean its working correctly

Not my problem that you do not have a clue. The drop rate is the exact same, it is just that more scales are required than other ingredients. That is a fact, not a guess, not an opinion. So lose your attitude and quit trying to flame because you do not understand.

[tihocan]

Yes, drop rate is the same, and yes, there is a shortage due to recipes themselves, and yes, I still want a 3:1 trader :)

[ThrasherGT]

Well then I must have incredibly bad luck, as I have only ever crafted 3 tier three items since the inception of the Shroud. The roadblock? LARGE DEVIL SCALES! I pull more than enough of every other ingredient to make whatever I desire, and I have literally DOZENS of every other ingredient whether it be small, medium, or large, But the GD Devil scales are like the friggin Loch ness monster to me. And please, don't try to tell Me that I should trade them or beg for them out of part 4 or part 5, as EVERYONE needs them and they are unwilling to give them up.

I swear that if Turbine put an exchange system in, I could make literally a dozen Greensteel weapons/ Items the next time I run My characters through the shroud.

Friggin' AWESOME that We have no way to trade these in, Just friggin' AWESOME....

[ThrasherGT]

Not my problem that you do not have a clue. The drop rate is the exact same, it is just that more scales are required than other ingredients. That is a fact, not a guess, not an opinion. So lose your attitude and quit trying to flame because you do not understand.

Yeah, and everyone gets the exact same drops as You. You have NO FRIGGIN CLUE how hard it is for some of us to get Large Devil Scales, So until You have the same drop rate as Me, Just keep quiet about it.

Seriously, I have done hundreds of shroud runs, and i have gotten exactly 8 Large devil Scales. Don't try to tell Me that they all drop at the same rate. No Way, No How.

[Riggs]

They are the same drop rate. The problem is the amount of scales that are used is much greater than any of the others.

This is the same argument used when people say 'the dice are fine, there are no low rolls because its all random'.

Just because over 10000 players, and 100,000s of pulls, the grand totals generally equal out is a useless and silly argument, regardless whether it is a fact or not.

If person (x) pulls 10 large scales in 5 runs, and person (y) pulls 0 - then yes it is the same drop rate, over the entire server - but person (x) now has great luck and can craft at will, and person (y) is totally pooched and cannot craft a single thing. (Anyone in the game will trade any other ingredient for large scales at LEAST 2 or 3 to 1, so anyone with 'too many' large scales will soon have plenty of other ingredients if they want.

Person x and person y have run the shroud the same number of times, and one gets to craft a lot, and one almost nothing.

This is fair? No it is not. If it is called a 'crafting' system, then it should not be totally random, like dragontouched runes now is also called 'crafting' when it is really a 'lottery treadmill'. My monthly fee costs the same as person x's monthly fee, but because that person is more lucky, they get to improve their character while person y gets to grind twice as much to get the same result.

People play a game for fun, but also expect a certain amount of reward from a quest after a certain amount of effort. Having a system that frustrates the majority of players is NOT a way to increase subscriptions.

A crafting system should be 'you put something in, you get something out'. If I wanted to play the lottery I wouldnt be playing D&D, I would be blowing my cash on tickets and then going broke because its incredibly stupid to play the lottery for the 99.999 % of the people who are not lucky enough to win big. The fact that 'well the odds are balanced that SOMEONE will win' is a useless arguement for the vast majority that are not the lucky ones.

I dont want to play a stupid money grabbing lottery system in real life, why would I then pay for a game that, instead of adding D&D crafting, adds a lottery system for 'crafted' loot.

Turbine has a very unbalanced 'crafting' system, and it really better be fixed, as people are getting pretty tired of the extreme grind and low odds of making something to improve your character in DDO. And sooner rather than later.

[Braegan]

Yes, drop rate is the same, and yes, there is a shortage due to recipes themselves, and yes, I still want a 3:1 trader :)

I have to agree here.

[krud]

Yeah, and everyone gets the exact same drops as You. You have NO FRIGGIN CLUE how hard it is for some of us to get Large Devil Scales, So until You have the same drop rate as Me, Just keep quiet about it.

Seriously, I have done hundreds of shroud runs, and i have gotten exactly 8 Large devil Scales. Don't try to tell Me that they all drop at the same rate. No Way, No How.

why don't you tally up the number of large ingredients you have used in crafting and add the number of ingredients you currently have so we can see how lopsided your pull rate really is? Also list the total # of shroud runs. We then have some real numbers to go by instead of these vague complaints.

[Thame]

Not my problem that you do not have a clue. The drop rate is the exact same, it is just that more scales are required than other ingredients. That is a fact, not a guess, not an opinion. So lose your attitude and quit trying to flame because you do not understand.

true show of ignorance. Those of you saying its the same havent a clue. You cannot program random. Because an item needs more scales for ingredients doesnt mean there is a lack of them for that reason. alot of items need 3 stones but you dont see people on here constantly posting they need them.

you can come on the thread and say all you want that its the same drop rate. Its not and you wont convince 95% of the community any different. So stop being trolls and go away

[Thame]

why don't you tally up the number of large ingredients you have used in crafting and add the number of ingredients you currently have so we can see how lopsided your pull rate really is? Also list the total # of shroud runs. We then have some real numbers to go by instead of these vague complaints.

I did this at one point in a thread. out of 3 months of shroud runs in groups with 12 people, at say 3 minimum runs per week thats 422 pulls on the part 5 chests which is 100% guarenteed large and 50% in part 4 of 422 pulls and so thats 3 large scales I seen in that time pulled. When you hear and see the frustration in it 844 times from all these people there is NO WAY its the same drop rate. Its the same **** as with twigs right now. The drop rate is screwed up for those as well.

[Tin_Dragon]

I propose an NPC, similar to the one in Gianthold, that will exchange ingrediants on a 3:1 ratio. Give the NPC 3 Large Bones, get 1 Large Scale.

(That sounds so naughty...)

/signed 3:1 sounds great.

No reason not too, considering even at the advent of Gianthold we got a trader for the exact same thing!

[ThrasherGT]

why don't you tally up the number of large ingredients you have used in crafting and add the number of ingredients you currently have so we can see how lopsided your pull rate really is? Also list the total # of shroud runs. We then have some real numbers to go by instead of these vague complaints.

You're kidding, right? I run the Shroud pretty much whenever I'm off timer. What is it about 8 Large scales do You not understand? Ok, I may have overstated the number of runs, but it is still well over a hundred between 4 capped characters. I stated that I have lots of every other ingredient. I'm not going to spend an hour writing it all down just to satisfy You. The drop rate for Lg Devil Scales sucks.

[krud]

You're kidding, right? I run the Shroud pretty much whenever I'm off timer. What is it about 8 Large scales do You not understand? Ok, I may have overstated the number of runs, but it is still well over a hundred between 4 capped characters. I stated that I have lots of every other ingredient. I'm not going to spend an hour writing it all down just to satisfy You. The drop rate for Lg Devil Scales sucks.

You can look at the recipes to see what you've used, and just cycle thru your toons and open the bag and look at the larges. I've also got 4 capped toons running the shroud. It only takes a few minutes to cycle through 4 toons. I've posted mine. Through 42+ runs, my drop rate is fairly even. You want them to change the drop rate you have to show that it's as bad as you claim.

[ThrasherGT]

You can look at the recipes to see what you've used, and just cycle thru your toons and open the bag and look at the larges. I've also got 4 capped toons running the shroud. It only takes a few minutes to cycle through 4 toons. I've posted mine. Through 42+ runs, my drop rate is fairly even. You want them to change the drop rate you have to show that it's as bad as you claim.

Let's assume it was 100 runs (the number is actually higher). That means 100 x 2 chests = 200 chances for large devil scales, and I have gotten EXACTLY 8! The other numbers don't friggin' matter! For me, the drop rate is under 4%. This is too low.

[krud]

Let's assume it was 100 runs (the number is actually higher). That means 100 x 2 chests = 200 chances for large devil scales, and I have gotten EXACTLY 8! The other numbers don't friggin' matter! For me, the drop rate is under 4%. This is too low.

And after 42+ runs I have pulled 10, and around 10 each of the others. 5 have been used in crafting my 2 tier3 items. I have 5 in my inventory. You have pulled 8 and most likely used them in making your 3 tier3 items. So now you've got no scales left and 10-20 each of all the other ingredients? If that's true I'd say that's crappy luck.

If everyone who complains about the drop rate would go through their inventory and provide accurate numbers, we could see if your experience is the norm or an aberration.

[Mayen]

Totals
Scales 27
shrapnel 15
chain 23
arrowhead 22
bone 22
stone 24

Hmm the system does work. Now granted a good portion of those scales have all come in the last couple weeks (8 scales in the past 2-3 weeks from different chars). And to those of you that are complaining that its happening to you so EVERYONE else must be wrong, sorry the earth is not flat, the sun doesnt revolve around the earth and the world does not stop moving when you go to sleep.

Bring facts not theories please.

Also please add the exchanger thanks.

[ThrasherGT]

Totals
Scales 27
shrapnel 15
chain 23
arrowhead 22
bone 22
stone 24

Hmm the system does work. Now granted a good portion of those scales have all come in the last couple weeks (8 scales in the past 2-3 weeks from different chars). And to those of you that are complaining that its happening to you so EVERYONE else must be wrong, sorry the earth is not flat, the sun doesnt revolve around the earth and the world does not stop moving when you go to sleep.

Bring facts not theories please.

Also please add the exchanger thanks.

Great, I'm glad that You're one of the lucky ones! You can say "the system works" all You want, but it doesn't change the fact that some of Us are getting screwed. Your personal experience has nothing to do with what others are saying here. Yep, You got yours, so everyone else must be crazy...........Nice "Logic"

[Mayen]

You have still yet to bring in the facts of your situation. You dont go into court to plead your case of unfair acts with statements such as "lets say I have opened 200 chests and pulled only 8 scales" thats your guess. You go in saying "I have pulled this of each item, and even including the random chance affect the number is not enough for specific item".

Until then to me you just look like someones whining, "gimmie", and attacking anyone that disagrees with you.

[Korvek]

I did this at one point in a thread. out of 3 months of shroud runs in groups with 12 people, at say 3 minimum runs per week thats 422 pulls on the part 5 chests which is 100% guarenteed large and 50% in part 4 of 422 pulls and so thats 3 large scales I seen in that time pulled. When you hear and see the frustration in it 844 times from all these people there is NO WAY its the same drop rate. Its the same **** as with twigs right now. The drop rate is screwed up for those as well.

I question your data collection methods then.

Twigs are about 50/50 when running the quests that actually drop them.

The drop rate for all large ingredients is the same, though Horns are lower than the rest.

[Thelmallen]

The quote below is a great post and sums up what the true issue is. We all must assume that the rate is the same (I'd hope Eladrin didn't lie in my previous post) but the rate is so low and so random, the number of runs you would have to do to get to reach that equality would be truly astronomical. Somebody posting that they have 10 scales out of their shroud ingredients compared to someone who's pulled 8 out of umpteen hundred runs only serves to illustrate the underlying issue: rare drops and unbalanced ingredient recipes makes for a frustrating system for the casual gamer (or even a less than casual gamer such as myself).

I've been a proponent for a trade system for months but we haven't seen any movement in that direction from the developers. Any chance we'd get an opinion on that?

-Thel


This is the same argument used when people say 'the dice are fine, there are no low rolls because its all random'.

Just because over 10000 players, and 100,000s of pulls, the grand totals generally equal out is a useless and silly argument, regardless whether it is a fact or not.

If person (x) pulls 10 large scales in 5 runs, and person (y) pulls 0 - then yes it is the same drop rate, over the entire server - but person (x) now has great luck and can craft at will, and person (y) is totally pooched and cannot craft a single thing. (Anyone in the game will trade any other ingredient for large scales at LEAST 2 or 3 to 1, so anyone with 'too many' large scales will soon have plenty of other ingredients if they want.

Person x and person y have run the shroud the same number of times, and one gets to craft a lot, and one almost nothing.

This is fair? No it is not. If it is called a 'crafting' system, then it should not be totally random, like dragontouched runes now is also called 'crafting' when it is really a 'lottery treadmill'. My monthly fee costs the same as person x's monthly fee, but because that person is more lucky, they get to improve their character while person y gets to grind twice as much to get the same result.

People play a game for fun, but also expect a certain amount of reward from a quest after a certain amount of effort. Having a system that frustrates the majority of players is NOT a way to increase subscriptions.

A crafting system should be 'you put something in, you get something out'. If I wanted to play the lottery I wouldnt be playing D&D, I would be blowing my cash on tickets and then going broke because its incredibly stupid to play the lottery for the 99.999 % of the people who are not lucky enough to win big. The fact that 'well the odds are balanced that SOMEONE will win' is a useless arguement for the vast majority that are not the lucky ones.

I dont want to play a stupid money grabbing lottery system in real life, why would I then pay for a game that, instead of adding D&D crafting, adds a lottery system for 'crafted' loot.

Turbine has a very unbalanced 'crafting' system, and it really better be fixed, as people are getting pretty tired of the extreme grind and low odds of making something to improve your character in DDO. And sooner rather than later.

[gfunk]

my totals on 98 completions (i almost never stop at part 4... maybe a couple of times at most)

scales 28
sharpnel 22
arroheads 30
stones 30
chains 23
bones 25
horns 5

total= 161 larges (~1.6 run)

Very even in terms of drops. The majority of the people I know have had similar experiences in terms of drop rate, though often they only realize it when I ask them to look back at what they have already crafted.

of these larges I have used:

scales 27
sharpnel 15
arrowheads 20
stones 28
chains 15
bones 15
horns 2

clearly for me at least scales and stones are the most popular ingredients. I've also made some pretty common items... mineral II's lightning strikes, etc etc, so my usage is probably pretty typical. so even if scale drop rate was increase, or made more static for people, they would still likely be more in demand than other ingredients.

[tihocan]

Great, I'm glad that You're one of the lucky ones! You can say "the system works" all You want, but it doesn't change the fact that some of Us are getting screwed. Your personal experience has nothing to do with what others are saying here. Yep, You got yours, so everyone else must be crazy...........Nice "Logic"
The point is, there are lucky ones and unlucky ones. You can't avoid it with a system based on randomness. The very fact that we have both is, in some sense, evidence that the system is working as intended.

I'm not a fan of a crafting system so heavily based on randomness myself, be it Shroud crafting or DT armor.