Monk Capstone: Serenity Preview

[Eladrin]

Since this is the week of Thanksgiving, I thought I'd introduce a Capstone Enhancement to the public to give you something to chew on between bites of turkey.

The next module brings a selection of new Prestige Enhancements to some classes and expands some existing lines for others, but every class will gain a Capstone Enhancement to celebrate reaching 20 levels in the class. A character may only possess a single Capstone Enhancement at a time. (At this moment it's academic as there will be one for each class, but other choices will likely be added in the future.)

Enough preamble! Here's the Mo (http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt283/itsapuzzle/01100110.jpg?t=1243551810)nk's Capstone Enhancement:

Serenity
Prereq: Level 20 Monk, 74 Action points spent
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: You are a paragon of understanding and serenity. Your Concentration is increased by 10 and your centered ki generation is increased by 1.

Serenity is subtle, yet in the hands of a master, potentially very powerful. Ki retention is heavily governed by one's Concentration score, and while this is a hefty bonus; the second bonus is what I find much more interesting... With Serenity, a monk's ki not only decays at a slower rate and stabilizes at a higher "Concentration band", but it will actually regenerate over time if their accumulated ki is low.

Let us know what you think!

[Mhykke]

I have a feeling some are going to be upset they splashed another class when other capstones come out.

[bobbryan2]

Tell us what you think huh?

This particular enhancement looks nice. That being said, I still think 20th level enhancements are a bad idea without respecs.

The only basis player build makers have to go off of is D&D rules and classes. And barely any of those have huge bonuses for hitting 20th in a class.

[Balkas]

I like it :).

I think they are a good idea. Greater variety of builds = :)

[redoubt]

Will the concentration stack with an item?

[Junts]

and this is a nice but far from huge bonus

[Balkas]

Will the concentration stack with an item?

Yes.

[Aerendil]

I'd rate it as "good" but not "omgwow!!1", which is a good thing.

Capstones too weak would not give enough of a reward for staying pure build, resulting in complaining; capstones too strong will punish anyone for multiclassing, resulting in even stronger complaints.

So the devs have to walk a fine line so as not to underpower/overpower the capstones.

And who knows what else will be ingame by that point? There may be additional capstones; there might be character respec options; there might even be greenweave handwraps. Who knows.

IMO, the true bonus of being a 20 Monk will probably be Perfect Self. This capstone is just a nice little addition on top of that ;)

[maddmatt70]

The only basis player build makers have to go off of is D&D rules and classes. And barely any of those have huge bonuses for hitting 20th in a class.

I like it less for classes that didn't really have any special reason to go to level 20 in D&D examples include: fighter, paladin, and rogue, with cleric, wizard, and sorcerer being lesser examples. The only classes where I think a capstone is warranted is the following because they had a special reason in the rules to go pure: barbarian (mighty rage), bard (+1 to hit and damage on inspire courage), druid (able to shape change to size huge elementals), monks (perfect self), and ranger (5th favored enemy).

[TreknaQudane]

This is pretty nice. I've got a Human Monk that will like getting this

So instead of 37 Ki before it decays it will be around 50 (counting level ups)

AND you normally go to -1 Ki when you are over your current concentration but below twice... will mean he'll be able to have 100 Ki that won't decay.. wow :)

[bobbryan2]

I like it less for classes that didn't really have any special reason to go to level 20 in D&D examples include: fighter, paladin, and rogue, with cleric, wizard, and sorcerer being lesser examples. The only classes where I think a capstone is warranted is the following because they had a special reason in the rules to go pure: barbarian (mighty rage), bard (+1 to hit and damage on inspire courage), druid (able to shape change to size huge elementals), monks (perfect self), and ranger (5th favored enemy).

Especially considering we haven't known about capstone enhancements for very long, and before that we even had incentive to 'not' go pure class in some cases... like warchanters gaining additional rages/day.

Sure.. a small thing, but coupled with the fact that no one mentioned capstone enhancements for over 2 years of the game, and people can't respec builds...

I just don't think it's a very good idea.

[Turial]

All depends on the ki regeneration rate. There are many quests in the game where it is less wise to engage mobs which results in monks having little to no Ki by the end, where quick ki generation and use is essential for them.

[Inspire]

Fantastic, thanks El.

[Toblakai]

Especially considering we haven't known about capstone enhancements for very long, and before that we even had incentive to 'not' go pure class in some cases... like warchanters gaining additional rages/day.

Sure.. a small thing, but coupled with the fact that no one mentioned capstone enhancements for over 2 years of the game, and people can't respec builds...

I just don't think it's a very good idea.


So... are you saying that you thought the dev's would not release level 20 enhancments? Did you think they were going to stop at level 16 enhancements and go no further?

I think its sort of obvious that level 20 enhancements would be created, and that they would probably be pretty decent.

Toblakai

[bobbryan2]

So... are you saying that you thought the dev's would not release level 20 enhancments? Did you think they were going to stop at level 16 enhancements and go no further?

I think its sort of obvious that level 20 enhancements would be created, and that they would probably be pretty decent.

Toblakai

I was pretty sure they would be there.

I didn't think it was obvious they would be decent at all.

[Aerendil]

So... are you saying that you thought the dev's would not release level 20 enhancments? Did you think they were going to stop at level 16 enhancements and go no further?

I think its sort of obvious that level 20 enhancements would be created, and that they would probably be pretty decent.

Toblakai

I think his argument is that previously there was nothing to dissuade you from multiclassing.
In fact, it was almost encouraged based on the lack of xp penalties that accompany PnP multi-classing, and the fact that some prestige classes such as Warchanter actually receive bonuses from multiclassing.

Which is why the capstone enhancements can't be *too* strong. You can't silently encourage it for over 2 years, and then penalize those people later on.

Not without offering a respec at some point (which, in terms of D&D, is possible - psionics introduces mind wipes, and I'm sure magic could offer similar opportunities so that you "forget" certain skills, feats, levels, etc. It's just the coding into a MMORPG that could prove problematic).

[sephiroth1084]

Cool!

I think, perhaps throwing a little more power into the capstone may not be a bad idea, as a greater reward for staying pure, BUT PrEs likely pick up some of that slack as well, so I'm not going to criticize any further than that.

Oh, Eladrin, so unfair is it for you to gain all the glory as the DEV OF KNOWLEDGEDGEdgedgeedge. Do not the others wish also to revel in the glory? Have they not the want to bask in the light of adoration streaming from the playerbase, so thankful on this holiday of thanksgiving for bestowing upon us more information? Should you not break bread, and share in the joy of giving unto us, your subscribers, the much sought after insights into our future? Is Tolero not jealous? Does she not lament?

Whoo! ANYWAY, thank you for the info and have a great Turkey Day weekend!

[EKKM]

I dont know much about monks, but I like the idea of level 20 enhancements. Also, I agree that they should not be overpowering must have abilities but good enhancements. Kind of like fighter haste boost, no one takes a level of fighter just to get it, but most with fighter levels end up taking it because it is good.

[Tat2Freak]

Regardless of what they come out with, I wouldnt change my character anyway (12 Fighter-2 Rogue-2 Barbarian). I can use any scroll in the game, DPS ALMOST as well as any of the top end tanks, open/disable almost all the locks/traps in the game (could do all but thats another story), the fact of the matter is, hes a **** powerhouse and I doubt there is anything they come up with at 20th level that would cause me to go straight fighter and lose the things that make him so...and if they do...well then I just make a new character(doubt it).


p.s. Yes I agree there should be some incentive to stay pure...make them powerful, cause when you multi-class your powerful from the get...

p.s.s HAPPY THANKSGIVING to The Turbine Team, The DDO Community and mostly to all of Sarlona.

[Aerendil]

Cool!

I think, perhaps throwing a little more power into the capstone may not be a bad idea, as a greater reward for staying pure, BUT PrEs likely pick up some of that slack as well, so I'm not going to criticize any further than that.

Oh, Eladrin, so unfair is it for you to gain all the glory as the DEV OF KNOWLEDGEDGEdgedgeedge. Do not the others wish also to revel in the glory? Have they not the want to bask in the light of adoration streaming from the playerbase, so thankful on this holiday of thanksgiving for bestowing upon us more information? Should you not break bread, and share in the joy of giving unto us, your subscribers, the much sought after insights into our future? Is Tolero not jealous? Does she not lament?

Whoo! ANYWAY, thank you for the info and have a great Turkey Day weekend!

Only one problem with that theory. Not all of the posts here consists of adoration ;)
I'm sure Eladrin sees as much criticism as adoration on these posts. Part and parcel of being a dev I guess. You can't please everybody.

But, if Britney Spears and Amy Winehouse have taught us anything, even bad publicity is good publicity... so I suppose in the end, Eladrin does win out :p

And I think I speak for most of us that whether we love or hate the capstones, new PrEs, or racial enhancements, it's nice to at least be kept in the loop of dev knowledge. So a /salute to Eladrin for that one.

[Wizzly_Bear]

absolutely love the idea of capstone enhancements. i would suggest some be more powerful than others though (makes more sense to go pure monk than pure fighter so fighter should be a bit stronger).

[Riggs]

It is cool to get information about coming enhancements for sure.

As for the serenity capstone....it does seem a little weak for a level 20 enhancement, it seems more appropriate for something in the 14-19 range.

Considering that by level 20 monks get outsider dr, their hands bypass several types of dr, and other class benefits, it would seem that a level 20 enhancement should be fairly significant, while not wanting to be overwhelming.

'Way of the fist' - making unarmed attacks transmuting rather than merely adamantine/magic/lawful would be significant. (Not many creatures are affected by lawful/magic/adamantine right now as it is).

'Way of Avoidance' - adding to the outsider dr, getting a dodge boost, or maybe a 'resist all damage 20 for 20 seconds maybe.

Something along those lines - simulating the capstone of a prestige class power for example, would seem more appropriate for a level 20 ability (the border between heroic and epic/godhood), than a +1 to ki generation.

[Delt]

I love that El is giving out mod 9 tidbits, it's really keeping my flagging interest/boredom from completely vanishing. That said, a comment and a question:

Question: What's the difference between PrE's and Capstone? Can anyone point me to a post that explains it?

Comment: Seems like a pretty weak addition for staying level 20 pure. Mind you, the "power" of this addition is largely dependant on what else they add to monks in mod 9, but it would have to be either something that takes a large ki investment during combat OR very useful out of combat monk feature (that aren't otherwise covered by clickies/etc). Ki has never been an issue, at least on my monk, as I am usually at full during combat.

Crit enhancements would have had me saying "yay!"...

[Gadget2775]

I was pretty sure they would be there.

I didn't think it was obvious they would be decent at all.

Completely and totally irrelevant. Every player who multiclasses should expect to give up something that would only be available to a pure class version including: Feats, Class Granted Abilities and Enhancements

Fighters give up additional feats
Barbarians sacrifice portions of their rage
Paladins sacrifice spells/spell points and smites
Clerics/Wizards/Sorcerers/Bards loose spells/spell points and possibly spell levels
Rogues have less skill points/backstab damage and loose a special ability

Just because you felt the return for multi-classing under the current system outweighed the loss doesn't mean Turbine shouldn't put in a special "Pure Class" enhancement for level 20.

My thoughts on DDO

Enjoy playing the game how it is.
Accept that there will be changes which may alter how you feel about current characters abilities/potential.
Don't expect Turbine to tell you what will happen one month/6 months/a year ahead of time. Odds are the plans they're working with today will change down the road so they can't/won't tell you what's going to happen ahead of time.


As a side note; I have exactly one character across two accounts (only one of which has A slot avaliable for a new character) that isn't multi-classed. So, as it stands I have ONE chacter who'll be able to access the level 20 enhancment. Boo Friggin hoo. I like my characters; Warts and all, and won't reroll any of them just because they can't have A enhancment.

[Aesop]

Looks decent. Not too powerful. Not something people can't live without but definately a nice bonus that isn't too expensive

I just have to wait til level 21 to take it ;)

Aesop

[sephiroth1084]

Only one problem with that theory. Not all of the posts here consists of adoration ;)
I'm sure Eladrin sees as much criticism as adoration on these posts. Part and parcel of being a dev I guess. You can't please everybody.

But, if Britney Spears and Amy Winehouse have taught us anything, even bad publicity is good publicity... so I suppose in the end, Eladrin does win out :p

And I think I speak for most of us that whether we love or hate the capstones, new PrEs, or racial enhancements, it's nice to at least be kept in the loop of dev knowledge. So a /salute to Eladrin for that one.

I didn't mean adoration for the idea itself, but rather the sharing. I'm fairly certain that everyone (or nearly everyone) is happy that the moratorium on sharing info with the community has ceased. And even the nitpickers enjoy something to nitpick about.

[sephiroth1084]

Idea just occurred to me for something monks could get at 20 that would make staying pure really worthwhile:

Bring back the bug that allowed monks to charge up finishers while blocking, as a class feature!

[Riggs]

Additionally, it would be really, really cool to have a separate set of multiclass capstone enhancements or prestige lines.

While there should be additional class power to staying pure class, many prestige lines require multiclassing, and it would be cool if those mixes also saw something at high levels specific to their lines.

The mention of ki in the fighter kensai line for example suggests a benefit for a specific multiclass combo, and while I dont think 'batman' is standard prestige class, there are other combos that could maybe be added.

Hunter of the Dead I remember seeing something once, a paladin/rogue class where they get sneak damage vs undead would be a cool one say. I sure there are many others too.

[hu-flung-pu]

Is it wrong to REALLY like this enhancement?

To be a constant font of Ki, and having it stack with a green stone +6 CON skill boost, means that you'll have gobs and gobs of Ki to play with, just entering an instance.

Very nice.

[Inspire]

This is actually a really powerful Enhancement for those who play monks, if you have a concentration skill of 40 which would be very easy to obtain by level 20 IMO, you get the regen on "Ki" and you can use "Wholeness of Body" anytime you want, no need to meditate... just find a safe spot for a while then heal up, no resources needed.

This works well with any "Ki" based bonus you can get your base "Ki" to, for example buffing with harmonious balance lines or "Healing Ki" for your party.

I guess the real question is how quick is the "Ki" generation.

[Randolf_Drake]

And yet again, Enhancements destroy Multiclassing, YAY for 3.5 online...

[maddmatt70]

And yet again, Enhancements destroy Multiclassing, YAY for 3.5 online...

/signed

I am really still disappointed about kensai 1. That is so bad that there is never any incentive to just go with anything less then 12 levels of fighter (probably 18) unless you are just grabbing a fighter level or 2. This is along the same vein these level 20 capstones.

[Balkas]

And yet again, Enhancements destroy Multiclassing, YAY for 3.5 online...

How has it destroyed multiclassing?

[hu-flung-pu]

And yet again, Enhancements destroy Multiclassing, YAY for 3.5 online...

Say what now?

You've seen one little enhancement, that has a VERY subtle effect on your pure class monk. A class everyone seems to hate anyways. And suddely tempest barbarians are destroyed?

[Hasteclicky]

I've multiclassed most of my toons because I like to, always knowing I would be sacrificing something over staying pure. I was building and playing for the current game as everyone else has been. Personally I think what classes get for staying pure should outweigh the benefits of multiclassing. that's a choice we all knew we had.

[Aesop]

I've multiclassed most of my toons because I like to, always knowing I would be sacrificing something over staying pure. I was building and playing for the current game as everyone else has been. Personally I think what classes get for staying pure should outweigh the benefits of multiclassing. that's a choice we all knew we had.

I actually disagree here.

MC and Pure should be different and each have their benefits but if both are level 20 then there should not be an "outweigh" (unless the MC or Pure COmpletely Gimped him/herself... like a 6 con 8 strength Elven Barb with a 26 base Int)


That said I still don't mind Capstone Enhancements as long as they don't overpower a pure class too much

Aesop

[Korvek]

I personally like this enhancement. The most important part is that it isn't a must-have type of enhancement, which still allows multiclassing to be viable.

[QuantumFX]

Eladrin,

I like this enhancement. However, I like it because it seems to be equal to the advantage of taking 2 levels of other classes.

I think this is the key to capstone enhancements: Make them powerful enough to make players consider staying pure without forcing them to stay pure. That was one of the big flaws with the Critical rage enhancement. When the cap was level 14 it forced barbarians to stay pure because it overpowered anything that 1-2 levels of another class would get them.

Also, what are Turbine's plans for enhancements in epic levels? Are they going to cap at level 20 like BaB?

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Serenity is subtle, yet in the hands of a master, potentially very powerful. Ki retention is heavily governed by one's Concentration score, and while this is a hefty bonus; the second bonus is what I find much more interesting... With Serenity, a monk's ki not only decays at a slower rate and stabilizes at a higher "Concentration band", but it will actually regenerate over time if their accumulated ki is low.

Let us know what you think!

Looks cool. Now I have to decide whether to splash rogue for the intimidate, or stick monk/20 for the Capstone enhancement. I feel that whether my monk gets outsider glowie eyes at 20 might be a deal breaker! :)

Any chance of getting some ki regeneration in public areas? I love abundant stepping around the marketplace!

Garth

[Demitris]

and people always looked at me strange for refusing to splash with my characters... if this is an example for the capstones, well I may have been on the right track... maybe, kinda... sorta :D

[sephiroth1084]

A capstone should be both a reward for staying pure and an incentive to do so. It should not be stronger than splashing a couple of levels in another class (and would have to be truly outrageous in order to do so), but should be worth enough that the choice is not an easy one.

For all those people who are complaining that they are missing out because they multiclassed, go assess your time playing thus far: instead of being one of the paladin players lamenting their lack of DPS, aggro-management, worthwhile high-level spells or abilities, you went in for a few levels of rogue, or ranger, or fighter, and gained some more DPS, more feats, Haste boost, +1 Str or Dex, TWF, Fighter Armor and Shield Mastery, Intimidate as a class skill, UMD as a class skill, Sneak Attack, Bow Strength, a Favored Enemy, a bonus to Intimidate, a bonus to your tactical feat(s) of choice, Evasion, Die Hard, a bonus to your saving throws...

That is just one example. Obviously there are examples for every class and build for which multiclassing has done a lot. On my intimitank I do kind of regret that, currently, I do not have access to lvl 4 paladin spells and some of the higher tiers of the new enhancements because I took 4 levels of fighter, but in return I received many abilities that have helped, and even defined, my character.

One might say that releasing PrE ranks at level 12 is unfair to those who splashed only 6 levels of a class for the first tier, or that granting new spells to a class is unfair since you chose to multiclass out due to a lack of useful spells. All of this is childish. We know that new things will come out down the road, and will have to reevaluate our decisions up to that point. The hardship is that we may be forced to reroll. Never an attractive option for someone who has a lot of hard to acquire bound items, but not so great a hardship that it is undoable.

Yeah, a respec system would be awesome, but how complex or extreme should that be? How flexible? Should someone be able to change one character into another completely? Should a maxed Cha paladin be able to respec all his levels to become a sorcerer? Or better yet, a haggle bard? I'd say no, but where then is the line drawn?

[muffinlad]

and this is a nice but far from huge bonus

Agree.

This is a nice thing to get....but I am not sure I would miss the two levels of fighter for this, so it depends on your play style.

muffinmonkey

[Maegin]

Love the new capstone btw, but I highly do not think they will allow respecs, except for feats/enchancements. I mean, c'mon, you rerolling is atleast 1 more month of subscription, which is money in their pocket. Think about it ^_-

[Solmage]

I have a feeling some are going to be upset they splashed another class when other capstones come out.

I'm sure they will be. But at the same time, I would be equally upset if there were nothing to make a pure class better in some way than other splashed combos. Both choices need to have strengths and weaknesses.

I'm going to hate missing out on paladin lvl 20, I already know that. But I will have been enjoying evasion for quite a long while when that happens, and will continue to do so. Besides, chances are one day we'll reach post lvl 20, and will then qualify for those lvl 20 enhancements.

Having said all this ... Eladrin, would it be possible to work on a reroll system that would at least keep your bound equipment intact? Say a rebirth (druid?) npc, you walk to him, he stores all your inventory, he sends you to the character making screen, and gives it back when you return from there as a fresh level 1 char? It would make fixing choices a lot less painful, without removing the re-playability and enjoyment of questing for tomes and such.

[Chaos000]

nice! heh, at lvl 20 I'll finally be able to fully utilize my lightning strike throwing star ranged monk build.

previous it was an issue of building up mana but with serenity if regenerates ki... booya!

[bobbryan2]

Love the new capstone btw, but I highly do not think they will allow respecs, except for feats/enchancements. I mean, c'mon, you rerolling is atleast 1 more month of subscription, which is money in their pocket. Think about it ^_-

That's a bad way to think about it. A lot of people would rather cancel subscriptions rather than roll up another character and grind for 6 months to get caught up.

[bobbryan2]

I'm sure they will be. But at the same time, I would be equally upset if there were nothing to make a pure class better in some way than other splashed combos. Both choices need to have strengths and weaknesses.

I'm going to hate missing out on paladin lvl 20, I already know that. But I will have been enjoying evasion for quite a long while when that happens, and will continue to do so. Besides, chances are one day we'll reach post lvl 20, and will then qualify for those lvl 20 enhancements.

Having said all this ... Eladrin, would it be possible to work on a reroll system that would at least keep your bound equipment intact? Say a rebirth (druid?) npc, you walk to him, he stores all your inventory, he sends you to the character making screen, and gives it back when you return from there as a fresh level 1 char? It would make fixing choices a lot less painful, without removing the re-playability and enjoyment of questing for tomes and such.

Ultimately, I don't have a huge problem with rewarding people for staying pure class. It's not very D&D, but at the end of the day, it's ok.

The only things I think should be added first are:

Ring of evasion -- too powerful of an ability currently, it'd be nice to plan around having it without a splash.

Respec system -- Needs no summary.

I really think both of those things would benefit the game in the long run.

[Auran82]

As long as the capstone enhancements aren't overpowered I have no problems with them, splashes usually give a fairly big benefit anyway.

Anyone else thinking how good a capstone enhancement 'Barb Crit Rage I' would have been? :D

[query]

*the truthseeker--a serene human monk with the highest of concentration and wisdom multiple focuses will allow--is sitting in full lotus meditating: flashy lights almost hovering, the works; when a messanger enters and tried to get this monk to notice he has a letter for him.*

*Calmly the truthseeker exists his trance and accepts the letter, tippping in platinun....for what is money but a material desire....when not used in balance to true serene enlightenmen.....


WHAT?!*

*gets to the part where he reads not only what his capstone will be as a human monk, he ALSO got rid of an ENTIRE sect of chaotic smelly barbarians?!*

"YAHOOOOOO!"

*Begins dancing and backflipping wildly in delight and.....oh crud, this isn't very serene, is it?*


*BUSTED!*

*The messenger just walks away muttering about how adventurers were bad enough before Shavarath AND Xoriat somehow got into this city*


THANKS THANKS THANKS Eldarin and others for the COOL (and not overpowering) option!

And TAKE THAT powergamers!

Wait, I *AM* a powergamer!


*Stop hitting myself, stop hitting myself :p*

[redoubt]

That's a bad way to think about it. A lot of people would rather cancel subscriptions rather than roll up another character and grind for 6 months to get caught up.

This is true. My sorc and my ranger/rogue will not be rerolled. If something came up to force me to reroll (not sure how that would happen though) I would most likely quit rather than reroll. Both were made right when drow came out. Both have semi-major flaws. Too little con on the sorc and the ranger/rogue did not take umd at first and now has the wrong alignment.

I'll be honest here... its not the xp... its the gear. I have it for them. I'm not going to try to get it again. If I could start them over without losing my gear, I'd run them up the levels again and fix the mistakes. Add a bit of con to the sorc and take umd from the start with the ranger. I would not even change the number of levels in each class. I just don't want to grind for the loot any more, I'm tired of that.

That said, this particular enhancement is not that great. I do like it and it fits in nicely with the monk i'm building right now and I will probably take it. But, its not super. As others have said, stuff like barb crit rage is a must have (and my archer has 14 levels of barb simply because of that enhancement. He'd of been a fighter otherwise.)

If all the capstones are similar in power I think we are going to be okay. :D

[query]

since everybody mentions how worthless it is being a pure paladin (blah blah blah,)
could you please also release what the capstone paladin will be?

If for no other reason, just to QUIET those 3642 threads SAYING that above? :p

Since this is the week of Thanksgiving, I thought I'd introduce a Capstone Enhancement to the public to give you something to chew on between bites of turkey.

The next module brings a selection of new Prestige Enhancements to some classes and expands some existing lines for others, but every class will gain a Capstone Enhancement to celebrate reaching 20 levels in the class. A character may only possess a single Capstone Enhancement at a time. (At this moment it's academic as there will be one for each class, but other choices will likely be added in the future.)

Enough preamble! Here's the Monk's Capstone Enhancement:

Serenity
Prereq: Level 20 Monk, 74 Action points spent
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: You are a paragon of understanding and serenity. Your Concentration is increased by 10 and your centered ki generation is increased by 1.

Serenity is subtle, yet in the hands of a master, potentially very powerful. Ki retention is heavily governed by one's Concentration score, and while this is a hefty bonus; the second bonus is what I find much more interesting... With Serenity, a monk's ki not only decays at a slower rate and stabilizes at a higher "Concentration band", but it will actually regenerate over time if their accumulated ki is low.

Let us know what you think!

[jmonty]

cool. what about rangers?!? :p

[query]

No Capstone For You! :D


cool. What About Rangers?!? :p

[Junts]

Agree.

This is a nice thing to get....but I am not sure I would miss the two levels of fighter for this, so it depends on your play style.

muffinmonkey

but the purpose of this isn't to compensate alone for that, other factors do: perfect self, scaling barehand damage, the extra ac point every 5 monk levels, etc

this just adds to that mix that helps making whether or not to multiclass a good decision.

for some people, it is, for others, its not - it depends what your built is meant to do. as an ac monk, pure might be better, for example, just for that ac point, and the other advantages just icing on the cake.

[sephiroth1084]

no Capstone For You! :d

One Year!

[Borror0]

Hmmm... interesting.

I like the concept of it. No idea how powerful it will be, but it's a really neat idea.

[BlackSteel]

very well balanced capstone, appropriate for lvl 20

[Inspire]

I like the concept of it. No idea how powerful it will be, but it's a really neat idea.

QFT, it really depends on how fast the "Ki" generation is.

[Borror0]

QFT, it really depends on how fast the "Ki" generation is.
Oh, trust me, that part is more powerful than people think it is, hehe

Ki generation is still every 6 seconds. However, like Eladrin pointed out in the OP, that also means you stabilize higher than before. By upping your regeneration by 1, that will means you will stabilize at twice your Concentration score. Basically, if your Concentration score would be 60, you would regain 2 Ki per 6 seconds while under 60 and 1 Ki per 6 seconds between 60 Ki and 120 Ki where it would finally stabilize.

At least, that is how I understand it.

[drac317]

quit actin like mc's wont be able to get capstones. they will it will just take longer is all.i can wait till lvl22 for my ftr splashed rgr or rgr splashed ftr to get capstones. quit whinnin babies

[Solmage]

Ultimately, I don't have a huge problem with rewarding people for staying pure class. It's not very D&D, but at the end of the day, it's ok.

The only things I think should be added first are:

Ring of evasion -- too powerful of an ability currently, it'd be nice to plan around having it without a splash.

Respec system -- Needs no summary.

I really think both of those things would benefit the game in the long run.

I strongly disagree with a ring of evasion - it completely nerfs a lot of classes, what's next ring of barb crit II and ring of 5 favored enemies to go with it?

[bobbryan2]

I strongly disagree with a ring of evasion - it completely nerfs a lot of classes, what's next ring of barb crit II and ring of 5 favored enemies to go with it?

Except that the ring of evasion is a classic classic D&D item. And it wouldn't nerf classes, it would nerf 2 splash classes that shouldn't be as popular as they are anyway.

[Borror0]

I strongly disagree with a ring of evasion - it makes splashing two levels of rogue or monk less attractive, what's next ring of Fast Movement and ring of Two-Weapon Fighting to go with it?
Fixed.

[TreknaQudane]

Fixed.

Evasion is a powerful ability, if you want it, you should have to multiclass to get it, not wear a ring.

[Borror0]

Evasion is a powerful ability, if you want it, you should have to multiclass to get it, not wear a ring.
Why should I? Especially when it has became so important.

Sacrificing an item slot can be a decent penalty, mostly when you consider there are plenty of reasons to splash monk or rogue as is.

[Inspire]

Oh, trust me, that part is more powerful than people think it is, hehe

Ki generation is still every 6 seconds. However, like Eladrin pointed out in the OP, that also means you stabilize higher than before. By upping your regeneration by 1, that will means you will stabilize at twice your Concentration score. Basically, if your Concentration score would be 60, you would regain 2 Ki per 6 seconds while under 60 and 1 Ki per 6 seconds between 60 Ki and 120 Ki where it would finally stabilize.

At least, that is how I understand it.

I am understanding it as;

Your concentraion is increased by 10 and thus you stabilize at a higher base "Ki", with that it means your "Ki" degeneration is slower when you have over your limit or base "Ki". The generation will only bring you to your base "Ki" and not your stalemate(-1) point.

[Korvek]

Fixed.

Substitute Barbarian Rage for Fast Movement and a single favored enemy type(randomly generated of course) on the ring and it's a bit more even.

While I personally dislike the idea of a Ring of Evasion, it could be a bit more reasonable if it granted characters that already had Evasion Improved Evasion instead, freeing up a class feat for rogues and helping both rangers and those builds that already splashed levels into rogue or monk.

That would leave Monks, and I really don't know how the item could be adjusted such that they still benefit from it.

[Borror0]

I am understanding it as
Right, as it would take +2 to achieve what I said.

[QuantumFX]

Why should I? Especially when it has became so important.
Not to mention that Evasion is MUCH more prevalant in P&P than here in DDO. I counted over 36 base and Prestige classes (PHB/DMG/Complete books) that grant evasion/improved evasion in the 3.5 P&P sourcebooks.


Sacrificing an item slot can be a decent penalty, mostly when you consider there are plenty of reasons to splash monk or rogue as is.

Also you're having to give up one of the most powerful slots in both D&D and DDO. The ring slot has practically every enchantment available to it and has the most number of exclusive special effects.

[binnsr]

I'm sorry, but ever since I hit devtracker and saw this Enhancement announced, I can't get this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5513mXmQbw4)out of my head..

Serenity Now!

[SableShadow]

I have a feeling some are going to be upset they splashed another class when other capstones come out.

Just like any other mod, really. There's always going to be a group of people making lists of what's uber and what's gimp for the current mod, and excluding what's gimp (in there opinion) from groups in favor of what's uber.

*shrug*

[Borror0]

Just like any other mod, really. There's always going to be a group of people making lists of what's uber and what's gimp for the current mod, and excluding what's gimp (in there opinion) from groups in favor of what's uber.
But all is fine for as long as they are making a fuss for nothing and you can just roll eyes at them.

Sometimes there is really noise to make.

[SableShadow]

But all is fine for as long as they are making a fuss for nothing and you can just roll eyes at them.

Sometimes there is really noise to make.

Sure. Once the devs figured out that rogue's didn't need more damage, didn't need more uber trapped quests, but needed agro management tools instead, I stopped posting rogue luv threads.

I'm hoping mod 9 doesn't bring anything new as far as maximum power...so, no +7 stat items, no +6 weapons, etc etc. Just flatten things out a little and bring best spec a little bit closer to the average spec.

Or maybe you were really saying "Don't be a tool, Sable." ... it's ok, I know I can be sometimes. :)

[Borror0]

Once the devs figured out that rogue's didn't need more damage, didn't need more uber trapped quests, but needed agro management tools instead, I stopped posting rogue luv threads.
Rogues don't really need more damage. You guys are quite uber the way you are... although new ways of doing damage could be cool. I don't have any ideas myself but I am sure someone just has a cool idea laying around or maybe even something out of PnP. But you don't really need more damage.

You don't need uber trapped quest. We could use cooler traps though.

...as for aggro managements, that wouldn't be a bad thing. ;)

I'm hoping mod 9 doesn't bring anything new as far as maximum power...so, no +7 stat items, no +6 weapons, etc etc. Just flatten things out a little and bring best spec a little bit closer to the average spec.
So do I.

As for the tool comment. I never fully grasp the meaning of that slang.

[Junts]

Not to mention that Evasion is MUCH more prevalant in P&P than here in DDO. I counted over 36 base and Prestige classes (PHB/DMG/Complete books) that grant evasion/improved evasion in the 3.5 P&P sourcebooks.



Also you're having to give up one of the most powerful slots in both D&D and DDO. The ring slot has practically every enchantment available to it and has the most number of exclusive special effects.

evasion is overly good here because of our buffing. evasion tends to help negate direct damage, save vs half spells (lightning bolt, fireball, etc)


just for comparison's sake, lets take a somewhat less common, but more prestigious feat from 3.5, the counterpart to evasion: mettle (when you make a fort or will save for a spell that is half or partial, you take no effect).

In pnp, this is an awesome ability, and they dole it out a lot less often than they do evasion or improved evasion.

in ddo, this is a feat most people wouldn't take, because most fort and will saves are entirely negated through buffs: greater heroism vs fear, neutralize poison vs poison, heroes feast/disease imm items vs disease, death ward vs finger, pk, et cetera.

if they simply made fort and will saves more relevant to ddo, it would go a long way to making evasion based toons less relevant in comparison to toons with great fort or will saves (clerics gain the most here, and fighter-types, with fort/will being so high). because we can negate those abilities entirely, im pretty sure most people wouldn't even take mettle.

in pnp, its extraordinary

[SableShadow]

Rogues don't really need more damage. You guys are quite uber the way you are... although new ways of doing damage could be cool. I don't have any ideas myself but I am sure someone just has a cool idea laying around or maybe even something out of PnP. But you don't really need more damage.

You don't need uber trapped quest. We could use cooler traps though.

...as for aggro managements, that wouldn't be a bad thing. ;)



I was using past tense; it's all there now, really, at least in my opinion. Now as long as no one in dev land has the "I know! Let's give all the mobs in Mod 9 heavy fortification!" brainstorm, the class will be fine in Mod 9.

Heck, if it's all undead in Mod 9, I won't be happy, but at least I'll only have to carry around one set of greater banes instead of having to scare up multiple sets to remain viable.

I've got a level of bard, so I'll never get the Capstone enhancement for rogues. *shrug*

Brenna's survived 8 mods now, still the 28pt elf I built to play casually with friends; not best spec, never has been, but I seem to manage well enough by playing to her strengths and covering her weaknesses.


As for the tool comment. I never fully grasp the meaning of that slang.

I use it in the sense of "unnecessarily rude", "unreasonable", and "unfair" mixed together. I know a fair number of rhetorical strategies and, when my dander is up and/or I've have too much alcohol in my bloodstream, I start hitting below the belt.

Not something I'm particularly proud of, just something I know I do.

[SableShadow]

if they simply made fort and will saves more relevant to ddo, it would go a long way to making evasion based toons less relevant in comparison to toons with great fort or will saves (clerics gain the most here, and fighter-types, with fort/will being so high). because we can negate those abilities entirely, im pretty sure most people wouldn't even take mettle.



There was a time when the most dangerous thing we fought were beholders and stat damagers were rare. So...folks wanted that undispellable high strength DPS and high fort saves.

I still remember the "Who would take a rogue into Invaders!" thread, and when rangers got picked for quests only if you couldn't get anything else.

[bobbryan2]

I

Brenna's survived 8 mods now, still the 28pt elf I built to play casually with friends; not best spec, never has been, but I seem to manage well enough by playing to her strengths and covering her weaknesses.


I have a 28 pt build that's survived. I also don't play him often, because I've built people I enjoy more based on the new rules.

I do understand that metagaming is a fact of life in MMOs, and that there will be a new build du jour when updates are released.

But that doesn't immediately mean that all change is good. Or that I have to like having to regret taking a level of fighter.

[esoitl]

Tell us what you think huh?

This particular enhancement looks nice. That being said, I still think 20th level enhancements are a bad idea without respecs.

The only basis player build makers have to go off of is D&D rules and classes. And barely any of those have huge bonuses for hitting 20th in a class.

I think it has been knowledge for a while that there was going to be a 20th level enhancement for each class. If you decided to ignore that and multi-class, well tough luck now deal with it.

Even if it wasn't public knowledge I think a bit of common sense was going to lead us to think with the current paths that what we have will only get stronger and there will be some big ones donw the line in the higher levels.
Deal with it.

[bobbryan2]

I think it has been knowledge for a while that there was going to be a 20th level enhancement for each class. If you decided to ignore that and multi-class, well tough luck now deal with it.

Even if it wasn't public knowledge I think a bit of common sense was going to lead us to think with the current paths that what we have will only get stronger and there will be some big ones donw the line in the higher levels.
Deal with it.

It wasn't public knowledge, first of all. It's a recent development that someone has said otherwise.

And it never was common sense, because looking at D&D character progressions, it's not there for most classes.

[SableShadow]

I have a 28 pt build that's survived. I also don't play him often, because I've built people I enjoy more based on the new rules.

I'm always happy to hear from people who didn't just delete their 28's when they got 32's. :)


But that doesn't immediately mean that all change is good. Or that I have to like having to regret taking a level of fighter.

Sure. As Borror0 was saying, if the devs do the capstones right those people that single class will be ok and those that multiclass will also be ok. Different, but ok.

If I had the opportunity, I might take the level of bard of Brenna, if only to stop people asking why I took a level of bard. :D

Probably not, though; concept character.

I would, though, take the 6 skill points out of swim and put them somewhere else if given the chance. ;)

[Borror0]

Deal with it.
Whether it was common knowledge or not is irrelevant. As be both agree, it boils down to common sense.

This is where we disagree. It is in Turbine's interest to make of multiclassing a viable option. If Turbine would be in a situation where they either make pure builds much more viable then multiclassed builds or the other way around, it would be a fairly easy decision. Multiclassed builds would win.

The reason behind this is quite simple.

Players like to feel they can customize their character. It is illustrated by how often players refer to builds as cookie-cutter in many MMOs. Or, even the pejorative meaning of cookie-cutter illustrates that point. The more options a player has, the more he can make the character like he wants it... the better. Multiclassing obviously lead to more options than pure class, especially if you make of deep multiclassing something worthwhile.

This doesn't mean pure builds should be good. It only means there is no justification to make of pure builds the best option other than jealousy and desire for revenge.

Hopefully, that won't be the case here.

If I had the opportunity, I might take the level of bard of Brenna, if only to stop people asking why I took a level of bard. :D

LOL

[Shima-ra]

I expected this capstone enhancement, since it just make sense,
and thought ahead about this.

What I think is that classes that are harder to reach 20 without multiclassing, (ie: paladin, fighter, etc.) should get relatively better enhancements then class with low odds of multiclassing (like the sorcerer)

And don't get me wrong, I'm not speaking for myself. I have only one toon that is not multiclassed and its my Shima (sorcerer)

[bobbryan2]

Sure. As Borror0 was saying, if the devs do the capstones right those people that single class will be ok and those that multiclass will also be ok. Different, but ok.


No doubt. And this monk is actually a good example of a well-balanced one. On the one hand, it gives pretty crazy bonuses to ki retention and even grants ki regeneration. Two pretty big bonuses, but it's balanced by the fact that I can't imagine too many splash monks that build their character around ki abilities (since they're so heavily balanced around having pure monk levels.

So in this case, it's bonusing an aspect that only pure monks focus on anyway. It's a really good enhancement.

What I don't want to happen... is for Rogues to get a capstone enhancement that bonuses heavily, something that all the 19/1 rogues also use. And then for content to finally be balanced around that ability.

And of course... all changes in design like this leave a sour taste in my mouth without a respec function.

[bobbryan2]

What I think is that classes that are harder to reach 20 without multiclassing, (ie: paladin, fighter, etc.) should get relatively better enhancements then class with low odds of multiclassing (like the sorcerer)


I think the absolute opposite. Sorcs and monks should get the biggest benefit.

[Borror0]

I think the absolute opposite. Sorcs and monks should get the biggest benefit.
I'll place myself in the middle and say that capstone enhancement shouldn't be really balance in regarding if it is harder to reach 20 without multiclassing.

If there are little reasons to remain pure, that should be addressed at those levels. Not at 20.

[SableShadow]

And then for content to finally be balanced around that ability.

That's the crux of it.

[query]

Dang you bastage for getting that stuck in my head :)


Okay, I too have a 28 point PC. The first one I created when I went and played DDO regularly and permanently. He is 14 wizard and 2 rogue. I loved back then how I was advised in detail by those who still didn't play warforged thinking you had to still buy your special immunities after the enhancements changed (you didn't) that advised mw HOW I was gimped and WHY I would never be picked for [insert raid here.]


Well, Cerulean's been proudly "gimped" for over two years now, watching EVERYBODY make the WF a wiz, then a sorc, etc.


So speaking as a 28 point MC build, anything can be done if you actually use your head for more than listening to foolish experts.


And yeah, ring of Evasion has been around much longer than this game ever was, and is no more or less powerful than a splash for evasion.

Of course I played pc's with and without natural and ring evasion, so I can speak with some knowledge.

No problem with dissenting opinions, just make sure you understand it IS as common as another ring of the same ML crafting level (some rings may be more or less common however.) Don't treat it as some newfangled item invention or so altered, it no longer resembles anyting like it's paper counterpart *cough cough icy rainments cough cough.*


And STILL whooping it up over the human monk with con and wis jackpot I get for staying pure like monks (pallies and certain other classes) SHOULD be but were not in DDO.

[Tat2Freak]

And yeah, ring of Evasion has been around much longer than this game ever was, and is no more or less powerful than a splash for evasion.

You can say what you want, but we all dont play the same "D&D" and I wouldnt let this ring into a game.

[Dexxaan]

You can say what you want, but we all dont play the same "D&D" and I wouldnt let this ring into a game.

Agreed.

What´s next Ring of Sorcery 16 so my Tank can self Buff?

* Ring of Fascinate 16 so my Tank can fascinate Mobs?

* Ring of Extend / Maximize or Empower?

Please.....:rolleyes:

[Aerendil]

First of all, I can't believe how many posts are here since I left work yesterday. Bloody hell.

Secondly, I wanted to mention Maddmatt's comment, as I'm *hoping* this is how the capstones will work.
Their power should be proportional to the desire to stay pure.
Hence, as was previously mentioned, there is already a good reason to stay pure as a Monk, Bard, Wizard, Sorceror, or Cleric. I suppose we can throw Barbarian in there too.
So their capstones should be good, but not *great*.

But for a class like Fighter, where aside from picking up the level III enhancement in a PrE, there's little to no incentive to stay pure.
Level 20 Fighter = gimp with no Evasion, UMD or other useful skills, and with more feats than is necessary or even practical.
As it stands, a multiclassed Fighter is light years in survivability beyond a pure Fighter, especially if we're discussing soloing.

So the capstone for a class such as Fighter will hopefully be much more powerful.

Guess we'll just have to wait and see, I suppose.


/signed

I am really still disappointed about kensai 1. That is so bad that there is never any incentive to just go with anything less then 12 levels of fighter (probably 18) unless you are just grabbing a fighter level or 2. This is along the same vein these level 20 capstones.

[Borror0]

What´s next Ring of Sorcery 16 so my Tank can self Buff?
That's an unfair comparison. However, yes you can have your clickie of a 2 minutes long level 1 buff if you'd like.

[Borror0]

But for a class like Fighter, where aside from picking up the level III enhancement in a PrE, there's little to no incentive to stay pure.
Level 20 Fighter = gimp with no Evasion, UMD or other useful skills, and with more feats than is necessary or even practical.
As it stands, a multiclassed Fighter is light years in survivability beyond a pure Fighter, especially if we're discussing soloing.

So the capstone for a class such as Fighter will hopefully be much more powerful.
As I said a few posts above, if some levels are unappealing, they should be made appealing.

This is true for all levels. Be it level 12, 13, 3 or 20. If a class is unattractive until you get the capstone enhancements, that is quite lame. Not only for how weaker they are while levelling up, but from a multiclassing point of view. The balancing shouldn't be done at the level cap but across the levels for as long as it's possible.

The capstone enhancements should NOT have to justify taking 20 levels of that class. It should be there to take the 20th level of that class, maybe the 19th too. Not more than that. It should be there to solve the dilemma "Do I go pure or splash two levels of something?" If being a fighter sucks, than being a fighter should be changed so it does not suck. Not be changed so being a pure fighter does not suck.

It would be both unfair and bad design for the future.

[DagazUlf]

Looks great! Thanks for the post Eladrin.

[maddmatt70]

Not to mention that Evasion is MUCH more prevalant in P&P than here in DDO. I counted over 36 base and Prestige classes (PHB/DMG/Complete books) that grant evasion/improved evasion in the 3.5 P&P sourcebooks.
.

Who says that some of the new pre will not have evasion. I would not be surprised if the paladin defender class or even dwarven defender grant evasion.

[Aerendil]

*minor snip*
The capstone enhancements should have to justify taking 20 levels of that class. It should be there to take the 20th level of that class, maybe the 19th too. Not more than that. It should be there to solve the dilemma "Do I go pure or splash two levels of something?" If being a fighter sucks, than being a fighter should be changed so it does not suck. Not be changed so being a pure fighter does not suck.

It would be both unfair and bad design for the future.


Yep, agreed.

[dragons1ayer74]

Time to shelf most of my various level multi/classed builds until we see what is going to be offered for all classes. Will DDO for sure be getting epic levels? If so will capstones someday be obtainable example monk 22/Fighter4?

[Elaril]

That's an unfair comparison. However, yes you can have your clickie of a 2 minutes long level 1 buff if you'd like.

O, can I also have a clicke of +1 to my BAB without having to continue to use a clickie? Or, can I have my "fourth class on my character" ring? Maybe, Pally Aura and Divine Grace should also come on an item?

I, honestly, cannot see how anyone could possibly think that such an item would be good for the game.

However, in an effort to not further derail the thread, the Monk capstone looks like it's pretty good.

[bobbryan2]

O, can I also have a clicke of +1 to my BAB without having to continue to use a clickie? Or, can I have my "fourth class on my character" ring? Maybe, Pally Aura and Divine Grace should also come on an item?

I, honestly, cannot see how anyone could possibly think that such an item would be good for the game.

However, in an effort to not further derail the thread, the Monk capstone looks like it's pretty good.

I don't think it would be good for the game. I think it would be great. It's the biggest, most ridiculous lure to multi-class in this game. That's not a huge deal in D&D, where multiclassing is encouraged, and even taking PrC, it requires multiclassing.

In DDO, however, the devs obviously want people to stay pure. So why not remove the biggest reason to multiclass out there? Remember... I also think respecs should be offered; my goal isn't to gimp everyone who took 2 rogue.

Also... despite everyone's 'colorful' examples.. evasion isn't that rare. It's not some ultimate class feature. 3 Base classes gain it, and a SLEW of prestige classes as well. It's not the same as divine grace, or barbarian rage, etc.

[Junts]

I don't think it would be good for the game. I think it would be great. It's the biggest, most ridiculous lure to multi-class in this game. That's not a huge deal in D&D, where multiclassing is encouraged, and even taking PrC, it requires multiclassing.

In DDO, however, the devs obviously want people to stay pure. So why not remove the biggest reason to multiclass out there? Remember... I also think respecs should be offered; my goal isn't to gimp everyone who took 2 rogue.

Also... despite everyone's 'colorful' examples.. evasion isn't that rare. It's not some ultimate class feature. 3 Base classes gain it, and a SLEW of prestige classes as well. It's not the same as divine grace, or barbarian rage, etc.

you confuse me; this game is designed to reward a lot of multiclasses. there has been *****ing since the day i joined that some classes, seen by pnp purists here as pure classes (the ones that could not return if they multiclassed out, paladin and monk) had no rewards for going pure and were bastardized, etc - lots of paladin forum posts by people who 'just cant multiclass a paladin', lots of requests for some reason at all to stay pure.

and this, is, well, all - and its n ot even that good! its just kind of neat useful good

its not a reason to make a pure monk

multiclassing isnt encouraged? its more a question of 'all 20 is still viable', dude.

[bobbryan2]

you confuse me; this game is designed to reward a lot of multiclasses. there has been *****ing since the day i joined that some classes, seen by pnp purists here as pure classes (the ones that could not return if they multiclassed out, paladin and monk) had no rewards for going pure and were bastardized, etc - lots of paladin forum posts by people who 'just cant multiclass a paladin', lots of requests for some reason at all to stay pure.

and this, is, well, all - and its n ot even that good! its just kind of neat useful good

its not a reason to make a pure monk

multiclassing isnt encouraged? its more a question of 'all 20 is still viable', dude.

No, the serenity capstone is pretty well balanced. It's very powerful, but it's powerful for an ability that usually only pure monks will care about. I actually like serenity.

And I don't really know what your point is? That some people didn't want to multi their paladin, and they expected some sort of bonus to do so? I always thought those people were silly. 3.5 is based around multi-classing.. that's why there are so few classes with a lot of upper tier abilities.

[Aerendil]

Also... despite everyone's 'colorful' examples.. evasion isn't that rare. It's not some ultimate class feature. 3 Base classes gain it, and a SLEW of prestige classes as well. It's not the same as divine grace, or barbarian rage, etc.

Except in DDO, PrCs are quite different, and I have yet to see one grant Evasion.
Which just leaves the 3 classes, one of which doesn't get it until level 9, and the other one requiring you to be Lawful Good.

And in PnP D&D, despite it being a thousand times more prevalent, I never once found myself in a mission where Evasion determined success or failure. But in DDO, sometimes it makes a *huge* difference...

So I can see some of the complaints here regarding Evasion. It really is *that* good, and is a very strong reason for multi-classing. So until it's offered on a magical item, people *will* continue to multi-class for that reason.

[bobbryan2]

Except in DDO, PrCs are quite different, and I have yet to see one grant Evasion.
Which just leaves the 3 classes, one of which doesn't get it until level 9, and the other one requiring you to be Lawful Good.

And in PnP D&D, despite it being a thousand times more prevalent, I never once found myself in a mission where Evasion determined success or failure. But in DDO, sometimes it makes a *huge* difference...

So I can see some of the complaints here regarding Evasion. It really is *that* good, and is a very strong reason for multi-classing. So until it's offered on a magical item, people *will* continue to multi-class for that reason.


Exactly why it should be offered on a magical item.... For all the reasons you posted above.

[Junts]

No, the serenity capstone is pretty well balanced. It's very powerful, but it's powerful for an ability that usually only pure monks will care about. I actually like serenity.

And I don't really know what your point is? That some people didn't want to multi their paladin, and they expected some sort of bonus to do so? I always thought those people were silly. 3.5 is based around multi-classing.. that's why there are so few classes with a lot of upper tier abilities.


it only makes sense for turbine to make all paths have attractions; i don't think this means its clear they want people to play pure classes.

just that its clear they want pure classes to also be a viable option

[Elaril]

Exactly why it should be offered on a magical item.... For all the reasons you posted above.

I have to continue to disagree, not that I don't see your point - especially given your argument for a full character respec. However, you know as well as I do that a full respec is highly unlikely. Given that, I wouldn't mind seeing evasion given to classes via the PRE system as it would still require specific class levels to achieve, balancing it in a similar manner as it currently is.

[Aerendil]

I have to continue to disagree, not that I don't see your point - especially given your argument for a full character respec. However, you know as well as I do that a full respec is highly unlikely. Given that, I wouldn't mind seeing evasion given to classes via the PRE system as it would still require specific class levels to achieve, balancing it in a similar manner as it currently is.

Yep, and that's another viable alternative.

For the sake of argument, let's imagine Kensai was re-worked to grant Evasion at II or III. I know, it won't happen, but bear with me.
Given that each class seems to have (or will have) 3 PrEs to choose from - if you had a system like this, it could work.
The Fighters that want to be dodgy and more evasive would go Kensai. The ones who wanted to be unmovable titans would go with Defender. And so on.

I don't see why it couldn't be worked in as a PrE bonus, especially if placed at level II or III so as to dissuade a 6 level splash to achieve uberness.
Especially if it was worked in so as to change something else. For instance, grant Evasion, but then suddenly take away the ability to use shields or heavy armour or something (again, don't take this literally, I'm just throwing out ideas here).

It *could* work, and provides a better character building dilemma as opposed to making a highly lucrative item put ingame that will just be farmed to death by repeating quests even more than we already do.

[Borror0]

I always thought those people were silly. 3.5 is based around multi-classing.. that's why there are so few classes with a lot of upper tier abilities.
That is actually the biggest flaw of PnP.

While encouraging multiclassing is a good thing, they made pure class way too weak. They should have focused on changing that in 4th Edition rather than the junk they came up with.

[Aerendil]

While encouraging multiclassing is a good thing, they made pure class way too weak. They should have focused on changing that in 4th Edition rather than the junk they came up with.

Don't even get me started on 4th ed., Borr.

What a pile of steaming...

[Borror0]

Don't even get me started on 4th ed., Borr.

What a pile of steaming...
4th Edition is the perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bath water, IMO.

[Borror0]

However, you know as well as I do that a full respec is highly unlikely.
We have to stop saying that kind of sentence. It gives the impression that a full respec is a bad idea.

It is not.

In a MMO, especially one so focused on character customization as DDO, you simply cannot go on without respec options. Feat and enhancement respec are nice, but they are not all. Skills are the most messed up field by many. Even I made mistakes on my skills and I know this game better than most people. The game changes. What was viable a year ago might not be the following. Players get attached to their character, or they simply don't want to grind again to get that character all the gear it'll need. Awesome improvements to the game are ignored because of the lack of character respec, etc.

If anything, we should be here underlining the importance of respec options. Not acting as if it's unlikely.

[Aerendil]

If anything, we should be here underlining the importance of respec options. Not acting as if it's unlikely.

Yep, exactly. And there are plenty of methods in PnP of "respeccing". Wish spells; psychic mindwipes (chirurgy (sp?) I think it was called); etc.

Technically speaking, using psionics, you should be able to re-align *everything* in your character, since it's effectively mind-wiping you. So you would be able to re-allocate feats, skill points, enhancements, and, IMO, even levels you've taken could be a possibility, or your starting stats, or alignment.

Plenty of ways to do it. An NPC Kalashtar psion could require some extortionate fee; or some rare item that only drops in high-level raids and is untradeable; or it could even permanently reduce your CON stat by 1 per mindwipe. Or all of the above, who knows.

But I do agree. There are 1001 reasons *to* have a full respec available, and none that I can think of to *not* have one.

[Borror0]

There are 1001 reasons *to* have a full respec available, and none that I can think of to *not* have one.
Exactly. The tricky part is to balance the cost.

For skill points, it shouldn't be too costy. Something similar to feat respec should do it. It's for ability and class levels that it gets more complicated. If there would be a way to reroll your character without loosing bound items, I think that would be the way to go. How that would have to be done though, will probably be a nightmare for the dudes at Turbine...

[maddmatt70]

But I do agree. There are 1001 reasons *to* have a full respec available, and none that I can think of to *not* have one.

It is all about priorities. Everybody wants druids, everybody wants half ors, everybody wants more high level dungeons, everybody wants the level cap expanded, everybody wants epic levels, everybody wants more spells and at some point there is just some things that got to go because Turbine isn't some multi-billion dollar corporation where ddo has an unlimited budget..

[Elaril]

If there would be a way to reroll your character without loosing bound items, I think that would be the way to go. How that would have to be done though, will probably be a nightmare for the dudes at Turbine...

Which is the reason that it is very unlikely that a character respect will become an option. Would you rather develpmental time be put into somethign as resource intensive is a full respec is bound to be? Or would you rather they come up with more than four/five new quests that are relevent to the majority of the playerbase per mod?

Don't get me wrong, if there are major changes to the mechanics of the game, then I think a respec might be required, and might be a worthwhile place for the developers to spend their time. Short of that, it is simply not a practical use of resources.

[EightyFour]

Thanks for punishing creativity.

[Borror0]

Would you rather develpmental time be put into somethign as resource intensive is a full respec is bound to be? Or would you rather they come up with more than four/five new quests that are relevent to the majority of the playerbase per mod?
Thre are different teams in charge of different projects. Those in charge of quest are most likely not the ones who would take care of that.

We just have to wait for it to become the pet project of whoever is in charge of that team.

[SableShadow]

Which is the reason that it is very unlikely that a character respect will become an option. Would you rather develpmental time be put into somethign as resource intensive is a full respec is bound to be? Or would you rather they come up with more than four/five new quests that are relevent to the majority of the playerbase per mod?

Depends how they do it. "Reset me to level 0 with all my gear/favor/experience" isn't of itself that difficult...the issues come when you look at balancing that option against the rest of the game.


Don't get me wrong, if there are major changes to the mechanics of the game, then I think a respec might be required, and might be a worthwhile place for the developers to spend their time. Short of that, it is simply not a practical use of resources.

I don't mean to be obnoxious about it, but there have been several changes over the game's life to racial abilities, class abilities, feats, and skills. Feats we have covered (to an extent...trying to respec a three-level feat chain is very painful). Skills, in particular, could use a respec option.

[Borror0]

What game have you been playing for the past few years? :D
LOL, coming from you makes it even more credible.

[Elaril]

I don't mean to be obnoxious about it, but there have been several changes over the game's life to racial abilities, class abilities, feats, and skills. Feats we have covered (to an extent...trying to respec a three-level feat chain is very painful). Skills, in particular, could use a respec option.

Yes, there have been changes to the game, but nothing that constitutes a major change in the game's mechanics. Additionally, the only non recoverable changes that I can immediately recall were the changes to fascinate and evasion in non light armor, and neither one was a game breaker.

Again I emphasize that I'm not against a respec, only against any developmental time being spent anywhere, unless it's absolutely necessary, other than quest/character level progression.

[Borror0]

Yes, there have been changes to the game, but nothing that constitutes a major change in the game's mechanics.
The skills have been changed in drastic ways. Just take a look at Intimidate pre-Module 4.0 compared to now. Huge difference.

As for a lack of drastic changes, my intimitank disagrees with you.

[Elaril]

As for a lack of drastic changes, my intimitank disagrees with you.

Taken out of context, that's quite....intimidating. lol

Let me ask you this: did the changes to intimidate make you want to alter the amount of points that you spent in intimidate?

The bottom line is that the last two mods have been absolute flops from a player retention perspective. Why you ask? Because there have been too many dev hours spent on too many things other than quest development. I, for one, am tired of seeing good players and people walk away from the game because of misspent developmental time.

[SableShadow]

Yes, there have been changes to the game, but nothing that constitutes a major change in the game's mechanics. Additionally, the only non recoverable changes that I can immediately recall were the changes to fascinate and evasion in non light armor, and neither one was a game breaker.

Depends if you were impacted by the changes or not. "Non-recoverable" is generally in the eyes of the person impacted.


Again I emphasize that I'm not against a respec, only against any developmental time being spent anywhere, unless it's absolutely necessary, other than quest/character level progression.

Well...that's the thing, isn't it? The definition of "absolutely necessary". Brenna's fine as she is; I deliberately didn't min/max her as much as I could have because of the changing nature of MMOs, treated her like a somewhat balanced PnP character, and got a couple lucky breaks (Focusing Chant and the new enhancement system).

Some years ago, my main on CoH was stuck at 34...I was bored with her, nothing major wrong with the build, just bored with it, and not willing to level another character. Along came respec (Issue 2, iirc?) and suddenly there were options I could try out that made her interesting again. She was my first and, thus far, only 50 over there.

I wonder how many characters who are "broken" in the eyes of their players might come off the bench if they could tweak something here or there in the build....

[Borror0]

Let me ask you this: did the changes to intimidate make you want to alter the amount of points that you spent in intimidate?
...me? No.

Other characters that didn't put points into intimidate? Certainly.

[sirgog]

Which is the reason that it is very unlikely that a character respect will become an option. Would you rather develpmental time be put into somethign as resource intensive is a full respec is bound to be? Or would you rather they come up with more than four/five new quests that are relevent to the majority of the playerbase per mod?

Don't get me wrong, if there are major changes to the mechanics of the game, then I think a respec might be required, and might be a worthwhile place for the developers to spend their time. Short of that, it is simply not a practical use of resources.

Given that choice, I'd choose the new quests the first time, then the full respec option the second time.

[SableShadow]

The bottom line is that the last two mods have been absolute flops from a player retention perspective. Why you ask? Because there have been too many dev hours spent on too many things other than quest development. I, for one, am tired of seeing good players and people walk away from the game because of misspent developmental time.

For capped players, yes. DX10...well, they *need* that if they want to compete over the next couple of years with the other DX10 games out there. Hirelings...well, getting a full group is a major complaint for folks trying to level, particularly the semi-mythical casual player who's trying to pug his way up. I do kinda agree on Korthos...I think too much development time was spent trying to eliminate plat farmer tells that could have been better spent...but time will tell, I suppose.

I do hear you, though. I'd like more quests at the cap as well. :)

[Elaril]

For capped players, yes. DX10...well, they *need* that if they want to compete over the next couple of years with the other DX10 games out there. Hirelings...well, getting a full group is a major complaint for folks trying to level, particularly the semi-mythical casual player who's trying to pug his way up. I do kinda agree on Korthos...I think too much development time was spent trying to eliminate plat farmer tells that could have been better spent...but time will tell, I suppose.

I do hear you, though. I'd like more quests at the cap as well. :)

The reality of the situation is that apparently there just aren't enough man hours to handle creating enough new quests to minimize playerbase shrinkage and add much else. The last two mods, we got monks, two raids, four quests and a handful of explorer areas. There really should have been another, high level content heavy, mod in between the two.

If the next mod is not heavy on high level content, and things like character respecs are given precidence, the player retention problems that we are seeing now will only get worse.

[SableShadow]

If the next mod is not heavy on high level content, and things like character respecs are given precidence, the player retention problems that we are seeing now will only get worse.


Sure. Realistically, at this stage in the game's life there's no point in putting in something like a character respec system until the level cap is there and stable for a while...say, mod 10 at the earliest.

[bobbryan2]

Yes, there have been changes to the game, but nothing that constitutes a major change in the game's mechanics. Additionally, the only non recoverable changes that I can immediately recall were the changes to fascinate and evasion in non light armor, and neither one was a game breaker.

Again I emphasize that I'm not against a respec, only against any developmental time being spent anywhere, unless it's absolutely necessary, other than quest/character level progression.

That's a position I hear people falling back on when every other argument breaks down.

And it's simply untrue. There have been TONS of changes. Just look at fighters, it used to be that S&B was the only way to build a tank, then THF became prevalent, then TWF became king of the hill. The latter could only be switched to by rerolling if you lacked the dex.

That's a MAJOR change in the game. Maybe not in the basic rules, but the game itself changed drastically. And you could make case after case after case. Skills have changed. New items have been released that made some stat set ups different.

And let's not forget one of the biggest changes... that from 28 pts to 32 pts.

I mean really... what game have you been playing for 3 years if you think it's basically the same game? I remember when you could trip red names, there was no assassinate ability based on intelligence... but no rogues ditched dexterity because insightful reflexes never existed. Those same rogues ignored balance, because it didn't do anything.

And I know we're kinda getting the topic off the rails, but this is yet another big change in design that's warranting the same discussion over again.

The 'only' negative to making a respec is the time spent coding one. And when you look at the positives, it's really a no-brainer. As someone else said... you just have to wait until it hits the top of the queue for someone's pet project.

[bobbryan2]

The bottom line is that the last two mods have been absolute flops from a player retention perspective. Why you ask? Because there have been too many dev hours spent on too many things other than quest development. I, for one, am tired of seeing good players and people walk away from the game because of misspent developmental time.

I agree, they've been **** for player retention. But I would point out that more changes to players build without respecs is also terrible for player retention. For me, do you know how much time I'd put into releveling some of my old characters up if I knew I wouldn't have to grind for 9 months to reacquire all the raid loot?

There's a lot of replay value in a respec function if done right.

[Elaril]

I agree, they've been **** for player retention. But I would point out that more changes to players build without respecs is also terrible for player retention. For me, do you know how much time I'd put into releveling some of my old characters up if I knew I wouldn't have to grind for 9 months to reacquire all the raid loot?

There's a lot of replay value in a respec function if done right.

I'm not anti-respec by any stretch. On the contrary, for similar reasons to those you mentioned, I'm in the pro-respec camp. However, it should not be prioritized higher than new content, at least for another mod or two, especially after the bare high end content cupboards that were mod's 7 and 8 respectively.

As far as the changes to the game that you mentioned in your previous post, it's all a matter of perspective. Sure, when you take the sum total of all the changes that have occured since the game's inception, you can say that there have been many changes in the game. I'm fairly certain that you intentionally did this to prove a point, however, it does not take into account the time frame in which these changes occurred. It has been my experience, which is by no means all encomapssing, that players, generally, adapt their builds as best they can, or reroll due to changes they encounter.

This is not a perfect scenerio by any stretch and, in fact, emphasizes the importance of a re-spec option, but the simple fact remains that many characters who have been impacted by the changes are already either gone or have been modified in some fashion.

Would I invest a good deal of my game time re leveling a character that I was given the option to re spec without losing my raid items or tomes that I have groud for? Absolutely. Am I willing to wait, for at least a mod or two, for such an option to exist? Again, absolutely. This is all assuming that the developers choose to invest the lion's share of developmental time on higher level content for at least the next mod which the level cap increase to 20 seems to indicate that they are already doing.

[Strakeln]

I think his argument is that previously there was nothing to dissuade you from multiclassing.Well, nothing explicit. Someone around here has a quote from a dev - Eladrin? Eldorudo? That I always interpreted to imply capstone enhancements. Something along the lines of "If I had one piece of advice to offer, it would be 'don't multiclass - ever'".

I'm divided on the issue, and not taking a side... just wanted to point out that there have been implicit warnings in the past.

[bobbryan2]

Well, nothing explicit. Someone around here has a quote from a dev - Eladrin? Eldorudo? That I always interpreted to imply capstone enhancements. Something along the lines of "If I had one piece of advice to offer, it would be 'don't multiclass - ever'".

I'm divided on the issue, and not taking a side... just wanted to point out that there have been implicit warnings in the past.

The post you're referring to was made on the Risia folders around Mod 4. I can't for the life of me remember the dev's name. I know she was female, and I'm pretty sure isn't working with Turbine anymore.

I seem to remember it being in response to the evasion in medium and heavy armor change. Her advice was not to multiclass, but because Turbine will always make sure to make pure classes viable, but not necessarily continue the validity of certain multiclasses.

For instance.. if the ring of evasion was released and it circumvented the 2 rogue split.

Her advice was in no way a harbinger for capstone enhancements. It was merely a warning that Turbine isn't going to make sure that every conceivable multiclass option stays as useful as it has been in the past.

This problem is a little different. It's less talking about nerfing a given multi-class, and instead talking about giving penalties (or denying bonuses) to ANY multi-classing.

It's a subtle, but real difference.

[Borror0]

Something along the lines of "If I had one piece of advice to offer, it would be 'don't multiclass - ever'".
It was a post by HSinclair made regarding the new enhancement system around Module 3.3.

The post started with a quote of someone complaining that his build got hurt by the revamp. She said that if she was to write a starter guide for DDO, one of the first thing she would say would be to say to never multiclass, ever. Not because multiclassing made you bad, nor because it is harder to make a good multiclass character and it's easier to mess it up. No. She explained that multiclass builds are the most likely to get hurt by a modification made by them.

So, while she was sorry to hear that, she said that they simply cannot think of all possible builds. Certainly not in a game where you can customize your character as much as in DDO. So, if one doesn't want to get hurt by upcoming changes, he should stay pure as those are always the first builds deveopers take in mind when balancing content.

[Aerendil]

Which is the reason that it is very unlikely that a character respect will become an option. Would you rather develpmental time be put into somethign as resource intensive is a full respec is bound to be? Or would you rather they come up with more than four/five new quests that are relevent to the majority of the playerbase per mod?

Don't get me wrong, if there are major changes to the mechanics of the game, then I think a respec might be required, and might be a worthwhile place for the developers to spend their time. Short of that, it is simply not a practical use of resources.

Just to get back to respec options quickly - I don't think it's beyond reasoning that if Turbine makes a sudden change, that they should grant everyone of the affected class(es) a respec.

For example, when the upcoming Fighter and Paladin PrEs go live, any Fighter or Paladin should be granted a free enhancement respec, and 1 free feat respec.
That would go a long way in appeasing people who may have build their character X number of months/years ago, who can't be arsed to re-roll him/her.

Fair's fair. Enhancement capstones and PrE lines are huge, sweeping changes.
We should be given a free chance to respec our character when those are put in, rather than have to pay (via enhancements) or farm (feat respec).

Just my 2cp.

[Elaril]

Just to get back to respec options quickly - I don't think it's beyond reasoning that if Turbine makes a sudden change, that they should grant everyone of the affected class(es) a respec.

For example, when the upcoming Fighter and Paladin PrEs go live, any Fighter or Paladin should be granted a free enhancement respec, and 1 free feat respec.
That would go a long way in appeasing people who may have build their character X number of months/years ago, who can't be arsed to re-roll him/her.

Fair's fair. Enhancement capstones and PrE lines are huge, sweeping changes.
We should be given a free chance to respec our character when those are put in, rather than have to pay (via enhancements) or farm (feat respec).

Just my 2cp.

Unless I'm reading other posts incorrectly, I believe the respec that is being discussed in this thread is related to class levels taken. Sure, it's bound to be expensive to respec a character's enhancement's and feats but, with the exception of character creation items that have a prerequisite ability score, it's entirely possible with the game's current mechanics. The capstone enhancements are going to require 20 levels in a class and the consensus, at least in this thread, is that this is unfair to characters who have already multiclassed who will be forced to miss out on these enhancements.

[Aerendil]

Well, the class levels respec is but one of many respec ideas put forth in this thread, yeah.

Using a psionic mind-wipe, you could technically "forget" you were once a Ranger, or something along those lines.
Heck, you don't even need a reasonable explanation. This is D&D for crying out loud. "It's magic" is all the explanation most people need :p

I think the skills respec should be easy enough to implement, though.

But for a class-level respec option - I'd imagine logistically it would be a nightmare for the coding team.


Unless I'm reading other posts incorrectly, I believe the respec that is being discussed in this thread is related to class levels taken. Sure, it's bound to be expensive to respec a character's enhancement's and feats but, with the exception of character creation items that have a prerequisite ability score, it's entirely possible with the game's current mechanics. The capstone enhancements are going to require 20 levels in a class and the consensus, at least in this thread, is that this is unfair to characters who have already multiclassed who will be forced to miss out on these enhancements.

[SableShadow]

The capstone enhancements are going to require 20 levels in a class and the consensus, at least in this thread, is that this is unfair to characters who have already multiclassed who will be forced to miss out on these enhancements.

I don't know about "unfair"; the game changes, and min/maxing for the current mod has never been a good idea in an MMO.

The capstones thus far unveiled have been nice, but not particularly "must have"... I would be far more worried about a caster not having a particular or combination of particular "must have" spell(s) for future quests due to multiclassing than I would worry about capstones.

That said, I think a system of respec'ing character levels and skills would be a good thing for DDO. The game changes over time and a little change periodically to an older character can make that character fun to play again and stave off some boredom. Even just the ability to periodically change feats and enhancements have kept me in the game longer than I would have stayed without such.

[Mhykke]

The capstone enhancements are going to require 20 levels in a class and the consensus, at least in this thread, is that this is unfair to characters who have already multiclassed who will be forced to miss out on these enhancements.

Look, I'm sympathetic and would hope if people want to change their characters they get a respec option, but let's cut this "unfair" talk.

If people multiclassed, they were doing it to get benefits they couldn't by staying pure. It is obvious that if you multiclass, you are foregoing whatever enhancements exist for higher levels in a class. Let's not pretend that high level enhancements are completely out of nowhere, b/c they've always been implicit in the multiclass/stay pure choice. Every time someone chooses another multiclass, they realize they are giving up high level enhancements in the class they were in up to that point. There's nothing unfair about people enjoying the benefits from their multiclass for mod after mod. And from the 1 capstone announced, there is no indication that the capstones will be overpowering.

There's no "unfairness" here.

[Elaril]

I don't know about "unfair"; the game changes, and min/maxing for the current mod has never been a good idea in an MMO.

The capstones thus far unveiled have been nice, but not particularly "must have"... I would be far more worried about a caster not having a particular or combination of particular "must have" spell(s) for future quests due to multiclassing than I would worry about capstones.

That said, I think a system of respec'ing character levels and skills would be a good thing for DDO. The game changes over time and a little change periodically to an older character can make that character fun to play again and stave off some boredom. Even just the ability to periodically change feats and enhancements have kept me in the game longer than I would have stayed without such.

Yeah, unfair was probabaly not the right word to use. Perhaps "unable to take advantage of the new capstone enhancement's/PRE's" would have been a better choice of words.

[Junts]

its just incorrect, though, elaril:

pres have 3 stages. i dare you to go look at kensai or hunter of the dead, and tell me that their tier2 options are not outstanding. the first tiers are eh, but immunity to level drain/healing amp or the insight bonus to strength are both massive (imagine that insight bonus on a multiclass tactical fighter!!)

people with 2 splash levels can still go to 18 and get tier 3 in their prestige enhancement, or take 4 more in their splash and have two (!!)

people with 1 splash level can take potentially some level 19 enhancements (some enhancements scaling suggests level 19 is a possibility for their next tier), can take a second level of their splash class for further benefits, or splash an entirely new class for other benefits (feats, etc)

there is no sign from this capstone enhacement that the benefits to a monk of taking the 20th monk level instead of 1 level of a variety of other classes will needlessly gimp the monk for what they surrender; in fact, i would argue many/most other classes actually are still a net gain, depending how good perfect self is.

[Elaril]

Look, I'm sympathetic and would hope if people want to change their characters they get a respec option, but let's cut this "unfair" talk.

If people multiclassed, they were doing it to get benefits they couldn't by staying pure. It is obvious that if you multiclass, you are foregoing whatever enhancements exist for higher levels in a class. Let's not pretend that high level enhancements are completely out of nowhere, b/c they've always been implicit in the multiclass/stay pure choice. Every time someone chooses another multiclass, they realize they are giving up high level enhancements in the class they were in up to that point. There's nothing unfair about people enjoying the benefits from their multiclass for mod after mod. And from the 1 capstone announced, there is no indication that the capstones will be overpowering.

There's no "unfairness" here.

See my above post about the use of the word unfair.

Yes, there is always a chance to miss out on some enhancement or another; however, it's a different ballgame when you're talking about enhancements for which there is no frame of reference. Understand that this is only a game; a game in which you team with the other members of your party. Team being the operative word here; there is no "me against them" mentality in the team concept. There is no reason to "stick it to" characters who have chosen to creatively build characters taking advantage of certain desirable cut points in class levels. That, itself, is at least as dangerous a path to persue as continuing to release mods without adequate amounts of high end content; if either is continued, there will be no one left to group with BUT hirelings.

[Elaril]

its just incorrect, though, elaril:

pres have 3 stages. i dare you to go look at kensai or hunter of the dead, and tell me that their tier2 options are not outstanding. the first tiers are eh, but immunity to level drain/healing amp or the insight bonus to strength are both massive (imagine that insight bonus on a multiclass tactical fighter!!)

people with 2 splash levels can still go to 18 and get tier 3 in their prestige enhancement, or take 4 more in their splash and have two (!!)

people with 1 splash level can take potentially some level 19 enhancements (some enhancements scaling suggests level 19 is a possibility for their next tier), can take a second level of their splash class for further benefits, or splash an entirely new class for other benefits (feats, etc)

there is no sign from this capstone enhacement that the benefits to a monk of taking the 20th monk level instead of 1 level of a variety of other classes will needlessly gimp the monk for what they surrender; in fact, i would argue many/most other classes actually are still a net gain, depending how good perfect self is.

To be clear, capstone's and PRE's are quite different. Every indication we have received is that capstone's will require 20 class levels, while PRE's will be varied in their level requirements.

EDIT: The second level Kensai seems quite enticing on the surface. A lot, however, is dependent on its implementation. If you are allowed to use Fighter's Haste Boost in conjunction with Power Surge, it will be outstanding. If not, it won't be nearly as useful.

[Junts]

its been clearly stated several times that pres will have 3 or 5 tier progressions, 6/12/18 or 6/9/12/15/18.

the assorted tiers are fully viable options for most splashes - the capstones simply are not that profound a punishment for multiclassing, which does amazing amounts for characters

having never played a pure paladin, i frequently forget how many advantages im getting from my fighter levels when discussing paladins with people.


it would take a massive, massive paladin capstone - along the lines of +6 stackable to damage or something similarly stupid - for me to wish i did not have my splash levels. possibly, more than that.

[bobbryan2]

there is no sign from this capstone enhacement that the benefits to a monk of taking the 20th monk level instead of 1 level of a variety of other classes will needlessly gimp the monk for what they surrender; in fact, i would argue many/most other classes actually are still a net gain, depending how good perfect self is.

No, I agree. I don't think Serenity is a bad ability. I think if capstone enhancements are going through, then it is a well-balanced one.

I'm just concerned with some of the other classes, and warning against making them too good, or even good enough to balance around.

[Mhykke]

There is no reason to "stick it to" characters who have chosen to creatively build characters taking advantage of certain desirable cut points in class levels. That, itself, is at least as dangerous a path to persue as continuing to release mods without adequate amounts of high end content; if either is continued, there will be no one left to group with BUT hirelings.

Who's talking about "sticking it" to anyone?

Again, you gain benefits by multiclassing. You forego benefits from staying pure. You act as though all the multiclasses are getting royally screwed somehow, on the basis of the preview of monk serenity. Multiclasses gain a number of benefits from not staying pure. They've already gotten their benefits.

It's as simple as that. Nobody is "sticking" anyone.

[Borror0]

You gain benefits by multiclassing. You forego benefits from staying pure.
QFE

I'll add the following:
"It's NOT punishing those who have taken a previously good decision. It's balancing the options so that there is more than one path to go."

[Aesop]

QFE

I'll add the following:
"It's NOT punishing those who have taken a previously good decision. It's balancing the options so that there is more than one path to go."

/Agree

as long as it is balanced and not something silly that throws balance to the winds.

this one is fine.

Aesop

[Elaril]

Who's talking about "sticking it" to anyone?

Again, you gain benefits by multiclassing. You forego benefits from staying pure. You act as though all the multiclasses are getting royally screwed somehow, on the basis of the preview of monk serenity. Multiclasses gain a number of benefits from not staying pure. They've already gotten their benefits.

It's as simple as that. Nobody is "sticking" anyone.

Perhaps I misread your earier post, but it read to me like you were of the opinion that "multi characters had their chance to shine, now they have to suffer." If that was not your intention, then that was my mistake in interpretation.

I am fully aware of the benefits of multiclassing. I also realize that, even with the inception of capstone enhancements, many multi characters will be just as powerful, and in all likelihood remain more powerful than, pure class characters.

The crux of my discussion point, however, has little to do with character power. It has to do with player retention; DDO has a problem in this area. No, there is no full scale exodus of the playerbase, but the number of players lost recently is noticeable, and this problem needs to be dealt with now before it compounds itself.

This can be handled in a number of ways, all of which relate to giving us more things to do. Adequate amounts of high level quests per mod should be the primary means of handling the problem. A respec option would also be good, as it would give players a chance to re-level characters, without having to re-grind for bound items or tomes, who new enhancements might have made less desirable to that player.

[Maegin]

QFE

I'll add the following:
"It's NOT punishing those who have taken a previously good decision. It's balancing the options so that there is more than one path to go."

/agree

couldnt have said it better myself.

ps. i like the monk capstone ^_^

[Raiderone]

Since this is the week of Thanksgiving, I thought I'd introduce a Capstone Enhancement to the public to give you something to chew on between bites of turkey.

The next module brings a selection of new Prestige Enhancements to some classes and expands some existing lines for others, but every class will gain a Capstone Enhancement to celebrate reaching 20 levels in the class. A character may only possess a single Capstone Enhancement at a time. (At this moment it's academic as there will be one for each class, but other choices will likely be added in the future.)

Enough preamble! Here's the Monk's Capstone Enhancement:

Serenity
Prereq: Level 20 Monk, 74 Action points spent
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: You are a paragon of understanding and serenity. Your Concentration is increased by 10 and your centered ki generation is increased by 1.

Serenity is subtle, yet in the hands of a master, potentially very powerful. Ki retention is heavily governed by one's Concentration score, and while this is a hefty bonus; the second bonus is what I find much more interesting... With Serenity, a monk's ki not only decays at a slower rate and stabilizes at a higher "Concentration band", but it will actually regenerate over time if their accumulated ki is low.

Let us know what you think!

Serenity Now, Serenity Now, Serenity Now... Never worked for Krammer.:p

[Turial]

No, I agree. I don't think Serenity is a bad ability. I think if capstone enhancements are going through, then it is a well-balanced one.

I'm just concerned with some of the other classes, and warning against making them too good, or even good enough to balance around.

Yeah they have to be careful of that. Having not played anything other then a fire monk I don't know how well Serenity would be, but its not all that impressive to me.

[Desteria]

Well atm I'm not at all sad I'll miss it because of my 6 ranger levels, and possibly 2 wizzard levels later in life.

It is a nice bonus for a pure monk btu a round or tick for ki purposes is 2seconds? i think atm maby slower so it;s nto that much extra mostly it lets you save more up and actuyl always have some when you start a fight, also will work well with wholnes sof body heal your selfl and get your ki charged up at teh same time ;)
would i take it on a level 20 monk, yes every time, will i be sad my monk is not pure nope not at all.

[EightyFour]

Thanks for punishing creativity.

I've had some time to think about this, and my comment is a bit of a cheap shot. So sorry about that, just my initial reaction to something like this.

One of the things I love about this game is you can splash into another class to make something unique, I think that is the strength of this game over others.

I don't like it when a new enhancement comes out that you can only take if your a level 20 of this class, I think something should be added to the game that rewards players, to a lesser extent, that made level 18 or 19 in a class, this allows those that may have taken a splash or two of fighter for the extra feats or some other small benefit to partake in the joy of reaching level 20.

Now those that have gone 20 in one class, by all means, I feel that a little boost is justified. But don't completely forget about those that went a level or even two levels another way to try and give their class a small boost.

4 of my characters are pure class.
3 of them have 2 levels or less of something else.
3 of them have 3 or more levels of another class.

I would hate to see my wizard miss out on a level cap enhancement just because he took one level of bard.

[Mhykke]

Now those that have gone 20 in one class, by all means, I feel that a little boost is justified. But don't completely forget about those that went a level or even two levels another way to try and give their class a small boost.


Help me understand, b/c the way I see it, people are getting 2 different "boosts."

One boost is at lvl 20 for the pure class. The other boost is when a person multiclasses, gaining benefits that person considers more important than staying pure in his class.

So from my perspective, the multiclasses get a "boost" early, and these capstones are "boosts" for the pures, which come at lvl 20.

Using your quote, it seems as though you agree that people that multiclassed went for a "boost." So it would make sense that the pures would get a "boost," and the devs should make sure that boost isn't too powerful to discourage multiclassing.

[Aspenor]

Help me understand, b/c the way I see it, people are getting 2 different "boosts."

One boost is at lvl 20 for the pure class. The other boost is when a person multiclasses, gaining benefits that person considers more important than staying pure in his class.

So from my perspective, the multiclasses get a "boost" early, and these capstones are "boosts" for the pures, which come at lvl 20.

Using your quote, it seems as though you agree that people that multiclassed went for a "boost." So it would make sense that the pures would get a "boost," and the devs should make sure that boost isn't too powerful to discourage multiclassing.

Absolutely correct.

The general rule of thumb in DnD is that the core classes are only useful for accessing prestige classes. Sure, you may want to roleplay a wizard 20, but if you're optimizing you would never do that. Why would you take a core class, when a prestige class gives caster level advancements + other benefits? You don't.

Generally the only class you'd take to 20 would be a Druid.

Since we don't have prestige classes really, DDO needs to compensate characters for taking their levels to 20 in a class. No class, except druid, gives important abilities at level 20 that can really be considered useful enough to take the character from 19-20 in that class. They'll usually benefit more from splashing another class.

Multiclasses get many benefits, especially in DDO, that are not compensated for in DnD. Turbine should make being pure a viable build choice.

[Desteria]

Absolutely correct.

The general rule of thumb in DnD is that the core classes are only useful for accessing prestige classes. Sure, you may want to roleplay a wizard 20, but if you're optimizing you would never do that. Why would you take a core class, when a prestige class gives caster level advancements + other benefits? You don't.

Generally the only class you'd take to 20 would be a Druid.

Since we don't have prestige classes really, DDO needs to compensate characters for taking their levels to 20 in a class. No class, except druid, gives important abilities at level 20 that can really be considered useful enough to take the character from 19-20 in that class. They'll usually benefit more from splashing another class.

Multiclasses get many benefits, especially in DDO, that are not compensated for in DnD. Turbine should make being pure a viable build choice.

heck there was some nice PRC's for druids as well, I know lots of them that never stayed pure.

[Aerendil]

heck there was some nice PRC's for druids as well, I know lots of them that never stayed pure.

There was a really powerful one in Races of Eberron, in fact (think it was called Moonspeaker). Good stuff.

Aspenor has a good point, though. Core classes in PnP are often just a means of advancing into prestige classes, and unless you had a great class with benefits all the way to 20 (i.e. druid, bard, monk, etc.) there wasn't a lot of incentive to stay pure.

Also note in PnP you were penalized for multi-classing with an xp penalty, unless the other class was one of your race's "favored class"es.
No such penalty exists in DDO, of course, which is another reason many argue that multiclassing has been silently encouraged.

[Quanefel]

There was a really powerful one in Races of Eberron, in fact (think it was called Moonspeaker). Good stuff.

Aspenor has a good point, though. Core classes in PnP are often just a means of advancing into prestige classes, and unless you had a great class with benefits all the way to 20 (i.e. druid, bard, monk, etc.) there wasn't a lot of incentive to stay pure.

Also note in PnP you were penalized for multi-classing with an xp penalty, unless the other class was one of your race's "favored class"es.
No such penalty exists in DDO, of course, which is another reason many argue that multiclassing has been silently encouraged.

I don't know, I am thinking the reason the -xp penalty was not applied as far too many players who like to multi-class would be in an uproar if that was started.

[binnsr]

I don't know, I am thinking the reason the -xp penalty was not applied as far too many players who like to multi-class would be in an uproar if that was started.

As a player with only 4 of my 16 characters pure, I have to say that I wouldn't mind the XP penalty too much. There's plenty of XP in this game - you don't even have to look very hard to find it..

[SableShadow]

I don't know, I am thinking the reason the -xp penalty was not applied as far too many players who like to multi-class would be in an uproar if that was started.

Personally, I think it was just one more thing from PnP they didn't want to code, like the pali "level in something else, never level in pali again" PnP rule that doesn't exist.

[Chaos000]

to think tho. if the paladin capstone included a +10 intimidate then pure pali intimitanks starts to become more viable then it's current incarnation

as a side note: unlimited x/meditation per day for the monk would've been nice at lvl 20...

[Aspenor]

to think tho. if the paladin capstone included a +10 intimidate then pure pali intimitanks starts to become more viable then it's current incarnation

why would a capstone enhancement give a buff to a non-class skill?

I don't see this one happening.

[Borror0]

I don't know, I am thinking the reason the -xp penalty was not applied as far too many players who like to multi-class would be in an uproar if that was started.
That would be annoying. That is all.

It wouldn't balance multiclassed builds. It would just annoy them.

to think tho. if the paladin capstone included a +10 intimidate then pure pali intimitanks starts to become more viable then it's current incarnation
That is a poor fix to the problem.

I posted a suggestion many times on these forums on how to modify Diplomacy to give paladins and monks an intimidate option. It also included a suggestion on how to modify Intimidate so that change wouldn't end up punishing those who have spent points into Intimidate. Simply put, Diplomacy gets divided in two. First is the current identical to the version of Diplomacy, second is like the current Intimidate.

As for the Intimidate skill, a successful Intimidate check makes foes shaken.

That would really address the problem.

[Gratch]

As someone who has half pure-class and half multi-class builds (my monk is multi-class), this seems like a pretty good capstone. It gives something to pure monks that pushes their monkishness, but it's not the end-all be-all must-have enhancement for everyone with some monk.

That said, to make this capstone enh useful, the top tier monk ki-costing abilities/attacks really need to do something... "useful" or who cares about extra Ki.

I'm more interested to see what they do for wiz/sorc/clerics, who will max out the spell levels at 17/18 to encourage going to 20. (so not everyone is wiz18/rogue2, cleric18/monk2, etc..).

[RobbinB]

As someone who has half pure-class and half multi-class builds (my monk is multi-class), this seems like a pretty good capstone. It gives something to pure monks that pushes their monkishness, but it's not the end-all be-all must-have enhancement for everyone with some monk.

That said, to make this capstone enh useful, the top tier monk ki-costing abilities/attacks really need to do something... "useful" or who cares about extra Ki.

I'm more interested to see what they do for wiz/sorc/clerics, who will max out the spell levels at 17/18 to encourage going to 20. (so not everyone is wiz18/rogue2, cleric18/monk2, etc..).

I would rate this capstone as weak. I have a pure 16 monk currently. As Gratch says, who cares about ki, I just need enough for occasional use of fists of light and meditation between major fights. This capstone along with 2 pts SR do not compare with 2 levels of fighter (for feats) as far as I can tell. Deciding factor might be if the monk class feat for 20th level is changed from dr 5/magic (is that correct?) to a blanket dr 5 - that would give me a much stronger incentive to stay pure.

[Borror0]

I would rate this capstone as weak.
I find it ironic that some people rate the enhancement.

It's the kind of thing you cannot know of its power without testing. Nor do we know how powerful the level 18 stances will be.

[Aspenor]

Weak?

We're lucky we're even getting capstone enhancements.

Ya know what level 20 rogues get?

Nothing.

Ya know what level 20 clerics get?

Nothing.

Ya know what level 20 sorcerers get?

Nothing.

Sinking in yet?

[Borror0]

Ya know what level 20 rogues get?

Nothing.

Ya know what level 20 clerics get?

Nothing.

Ya know what level 20 sorcerers get?

Nothing.
Isn't it a little early to conclude that?

[frugal_gourmet]

Eladrin from page 1:

"every class will gain a Capstone Enhancement to celebrate reaching 20 levels in the class."

[Chaos000]

That would be annoying. That is all.

It wouldn't balance multiclassed builds. It would just annoy them.

That is a poor fix to the problem.

you're right. a cross class skill bonus wouldn't be the best option.

infinite smite evils on the other hand....

[sephiroth1084]

Isn't it a little early to conclude that?

I think he's probably referring to PnP, where most classes have little or no reason to go pure all the way to 20 (or often past 6). Monk, druid, barbarian, and, to a lesser degree, bard and ranger (and to a MUCH lesser degree, paladin) are the only classes from the PHB that have a level 20 ability. Then, for most of those classes, there is too little leading up to that, or the ability does too little, to warrant going 20 levels.

[frugal_gourmet]

I think he's probably referring to PnP, where most classes have little or no reason to go pure all the way to 20 (or often past 6). Monk, druid, barbarian, and, to a lesser degree, bard and ranger (and to a MUCH lesser degree, paladin) are the only classes from the PHB that have a level 20 ability. Then, for most of those classes, there is too little leading up to that, or the ability does too little, to warrant going 20 levels.


They also have little reason *to* splash a core class other than rogue or fighter.

In core D&D, anyone sacrificing a single caster level of a spellcasting class is giving up a significant amount of power. Wizards, sorcerers, clerics, druids, and bards, for instance, should all be pure classed if the goal is to maximize power.

[Aspenor]

Frugal,
That's only assuming you only have access to the core classes, granted, we don't even have THAT much....no druids and artificers here.

Generally speaking any class that increases your main caster level is better to take that going 20/x.

[Aspenor]

Isn't it a little early to conclude that?

im talking about PnP, they will have to give some boosts over pnp to make lvl 20X attractive.

generally speaking unless you are playing core-only, there is very little reason (read as: no reason whatsoever) to take any core class past 5 or 6.

[Inspire]

I would rate this capstone as weak.

I would disagree with this, the way im understanding this concept is going to make my monk alot more powerful and probably my best solo toon.


I have a pure 16 monk currently. As Gratch says, who cares about ki, I just need enough for occasional use of fists of light and meditation between major fights.

If your not using "Ki" for almost everything your monk could be alot strong than the way you are playing her now(?) Ie; Wholeness of Body, Stunning Fist, Unbalancing Strike, Quivering Palm, Fists of Light, Eagles Talon, *Any elemental 2d6(2d6 Crit.), Etc., will add to your effectiveness/DPS on your monk.


This capstone along with 2 pts SR do not compare with 2 levels of fighter (for feats) as far as I can tell. Deciding factor might be if the monk class feat for 20th level is changed from dr 5/magic (is that correct?) to a blanket dr 5 - that would give me a much stronger incentive to stay pure.

Monks also become Lawful outsiders at level 20, and gain all of thier immunities. Just food for thought, Im sure you play your monk quite well to how you want her to be played.

[Mhykke]

Monks also become Lawful outsiders at level 20, and gain all of thier immunities. Just food for thought, Im sure you play your monk quite well to how you want her to be played.

Not to mention the feat empty body at lvl 19, although who knows how, and if, turbine will implement it. I don't think it'd be hard to do, basically just like displacement. You go ethereal for certain periods, mobs have a 50% miss chance unless using ghost touch weapons. Although now that I think about it, it should work against red names, right? :O

[Inspire]

Not to mention the feat empty body at lvl 19, although who knows how, and if, turbine will implement it. I don't think it'd be hard to do, basically just like displacement. You go ethereal for certain periods, mobs have a 50% miss chance unless using ghost touch weapons. Although now that I think about it, it should work against red names, right? :O

Was wondering the exact same thing the other day. Will be interesting to know what they do with it :D!

[Milolyen]

The way I read this is ... lets say you are over the amount of Ki and lose it at -3 per tick ... with this you would only lose it at -2 per tick. So when you are down to loseing it at -1 per tick with this you would not lose any and then if you are below your alotted Ki you actually gain one per tick untill you reach that alotted amount.

While I don't have a high lvl monk yet (he is only like lvl 10) I can see this as being a pretty sweet bonus but as others have said there are also other reasons for staying pure monk. These capstone enhancements I think are more about giving people more and tougher choices when it comes to Pure versus Multi. With the PRE's 6/12/18 it is not really a tough decision to go say 18 fighter / 2 rogue(or monk) or 18 pally / 2 rogue(or monk) for evasion and with no "capstone" there is no reason NOT to do that and therefor there is no real "choice" about it. This is about giving people choices and last I heard that is what people enjoy and ask for in this game is it not?

Milolyen

[Mhykke]

The way I read this is ... lets say you are over the amount of Ki and lose it at -3 per tick ... with this you would only lose it at -2 per tick. So when you are down to loseing it at -1 per tick with this you would not lose any and then if you are below your alotted Ki you actually gain one per tick untill you reach that alotted amount.

While I don't have a high lvl monk yet (he is only like lvl 10) I can see this as being a pretty sweet bonus but as others have said there are also other reasons for staying pure monk. These capstone enhancements I think are more about giving people more and tougher choices when it comes to Pure versus Multi. With the PRE's 6/12/18 it is not really a tough decision to go say 18 fighter / 2 rogue(or monk) or 18 pally / 2 rogue(or monk) for evasion and with no "capstone" there is no reason NOT to do that and therefor there is no real "choice" about it. This is about giving people choices and last I heard that is what people enjoy and ask for in this game is it not?

Milolyen

Good post.

[RobbinB]

I would disagree with this, the way im understanding this concept is going to make my monk alot more powerful and probably my best solo toon.

If your not using "Ki" for almost everything your monk could be alot strong than the way you are playing her now(?) Ie; Wholeness of Body, Stunning Fist, Unbalancing Strike, Quivering Palm, Fists of Light, Eagles Talon, *Any elemental 2d6(2d6 Crit.), Etc., will add to your effectiveness/DPS on your monk.

Monks also become Lawful outsiders at level 20, and gain all of thier immunities. Just food for thought, Im sure you play your monk quite well to how you want her to be played.

My monk is undoubtedly my strongest solo toon, but the capstone skill will only make it marginally better. Then again, I mostly dual wield kamas. I'm betting you are more geared towards handwraps, so maybe that's where we are different. With respect to some of the other skills you mentioned:

Wholeness of body - I think this is what I meant by meditation, I use it for getting hp back after battles (when my ki bar is often very full). Since limit of usefulness is more often than not due to timer reset not ki bar, additional ki won't be that helpful.

Stunning fist - I fight with kamas so stunning fist isn't of much use to me (I can see the potential utility for unarmed specialists though)

Quivering palm - can't use with my kamas

Fists of light - awesome skill, use it all the time, but I'm almost never in a situation where lack of ki limits me from using it

I experimented at earlier monk levels with lots of the skills and finishing moves and found them to be somewhat underwhelming. I pretty much only use fists of light, wholeness of body, and abundant step at endgame. In addition to saving me from carpal tunnel syndrome I feel that this simplified approach has actually made me a better monk. Simplify your button bar, focus on the skills and weapons/equipment that you really need to get the job done, get rid of the fluff. Might be a different situation for unarmed specialists though. (Also, does this mean the enhancement is in fact unbalanced in favor of a particular type of monk over another?)

As for the "benefits" of being a lawful outsider at lvl 20, it would be helpful to get a little more information as to what that actually means. What immunities specifically?

[TreknaQudane]

I pretty much only use fists of light, wholeness of body, and abundant step at endgame. In addition to saving me from carpal tunnel syndrome I feel that this simplified approach has actually made me a better monk. Simplify your button bar, focus on the skills and weapons/equipment that you really need to get the job done, get rid of the fluff. Might be a different situation for unarmed specialists though. (Also, does this mean the enhancement is in fact unbalanced in favor of a particular type of monk over another?)


Any given strike you could add 2d6 Fire/Ice/or Elecritcal damage to a strike that on a crit does an additional 2d6 .. or 8 physical damage that on crits does 2d6 Acid Damage.

Played smart that can really help versus enemies weak to an element or only able to be damaged by a small variety of them, any extra damage helps, especially if you've chose to go kamas (1d6) over Unarmed (2d8) when both are TWF and Finesseable

[RobbinB]

Any given strike you could add 2d6 Fire/Ice/or Elecritcal damage to a strike that on a crit does an additional 2d6 .. or 8 physical damage that on crits does 2d6 Acid Damage.

Played smart that can really help versus enemies weak to an element or only able to be damaged by a small variety of them, any extra damage helps, especially if you've chose to go kamas (1d6) over Unarmed (2d8) when both are TWF and Finesseable

Dual wounders don't really care whether or not you add small amounts of electrical damage. The only time it matters is when you fight an end boss. In those cases, playing smart is for example pulling out your tier 3 water greensteel and frost of greater elemental bane kamas against the red named fire elemental, or your tier 3 positive greensteel and holy of greater undead bane kamas against sorjek.

Maybe its just a personal preference, but I would rather just hit the fists of light about every 10-15 seconds or so to ensure curse of healing stays in effect (and I get a little extra damage) over the constant click-fest that would be necessary to get the absolute maximum possible damage.

I'd rather see the secondary attacks be more polarized with respect to their frequency of use - either the damage is very small but hits on each attack or they greatly up the damage but make the ki cost much greater. Might save a person or two from carpal tunnel later in life and would also make faster ki generation definitely useful for everyone.

[HumanJHawkins]

Awesome... A pure class finally gets some end game lovin'.

[Borror0]

Awesome... A pure class finally gets some end game lovin'.
Forgot of Critical Rage II when cap was 14?

[Mhykke]

Forgot of Critical Rage II when cap was 14?

That's so we can get crit rage III at 20! :D

[Desteria]

or your tier 3 positive greensteel and holy of greater undead bane kamas against sorjek.

Both those weapons would actuly kinda SUCK against sorjek sicne neither one buypasses his 15DR....
Now Tier3 min2 Greensteel hell YA
Holy of Greater undead bain Handwraps HELL YA
Both of them will buypas his DR and add lots of dice



Maybe its just a personal preference, but I would rather just hit the fists of light about every 10-15 seconds or so to ensure curse of healing stays in effect (and I get a little extra damage) over the constant click-fest that would be necessary to get the absolute maximum possible damage.

I agree fro trash but big nameds that are longer DPS fighters I turn on atupo attack and just bonce my fingers over the keys for the attacks that work well against that boss, mostly i focus on useign the Tier2 attacks becasue 2-3 of them is about on pace with my ki generation, but at the start if i'm startign full on harry for eq i'll spam air2&earht2 then air1&earht1 then repeat it but i dont spend thought on it it just pick 2 fingers for each and mash away....



I'd rather see the secondary attacks be more polarized with respect to their frequency of use - either the damage is very small but hits on each attack or they greatly up the damage but make the ki cost much greater. Might save a person or two from carpal tunnel later in life and would also make faster ki generation definitely useful for everyone.

PErsonaly I'd MUCH rahter see them be a ALL attakcs for X seconds get this bonus make them a little more expensive, dotn want to proce them out of lowlevel range to much even though they arnt realyl worht it untill you have high hp red nameds btu what ever, make it 10 ki all attacks for 10 seconds, they don't stack with each other IE you cant have lit and earth and fire all at once for EG just one of them... be much easyer to use. However this woudl make them easyer to use but also mroe powerfull, I want it for ease of use my self prolyl have to tone the damaeg down at the same time to balace it. maby 1d4 or 1d3 insted etc.
OR maby make them a seocnd set of stances they work just liek the current one you have have one attack stace up at a given time.... have them cost a certen amount of Ki every tic.... note this would also imo make serenity MUCH better then it is now :)

[EightyFour]

Help me understand, b/c the way I see it, people are getting 2 different "boosts."

One boost is at lvl 20 for the pure class. The other boost is when a person multiclasses, gaining benefits that person considers more important than staying pure in his class.

So from my perspective, the multiclasses get a "boost" early, and these capstones are "boosts" for the pures, which come at lvl 20.

Using your quote, it seems as though you agree that people that multiclassed went for a "boost." So it would make sense that the pures would get a "boost," and the devs should make sure that boost isn't too powerful to discourage multiclassing.

You right, my fear is that it's going to get over done and the balance of things well be knocked off.

Secondly, I see 20 as being "the" level in DnD, I think that's mainly do to the fact that the impression was given in second edition by the tables that 20 was some sort of marker. I believe even in first edition this was the max level, tell me if I'm wrong as this is a guess from a fuzzy memory. 20th level became at some point a big mile stone. As far as level 20 being "the" level anymore, not so much, I've seen the books start to take a turn away from that angle. I feel these pure class rewards are like turbine handing out candy to the players that stayed pure class, but those that didn't were bad so they don't get any candy.

I'm just saying, I want some candy too.

Heck, give me a level 20 race reward, I think I might even be happy with that, but I would like something for the characters I have that made it to 20.

When I think about it though, what's the point of singling out a pure class, I don't understand why they would reward a choice that one player made, but because a different player made a different choice, they well not be rewarded here.

My question is, are the players that made different choices, but still made the climb to level 20 going to be rewarded with some sort of level 20 prize as well, or are we discriminating against non pure class characters?

The reason I have the problem with this that I do, is that turbine is rewarding only the pure classes so far as I know.

I have a hard time with this one, because part of me agrees that a pure class character should receive this, as their sacrifice was that they didn't take another class, and with the multiclass, their sacrifice was whatever they gave up to gain the extra level in another class, maybe it was 1 bab but got some skill points, who knows, that was their sacrifice.

My problem here is that pure classes were singled out in this and given a bonus.

I'm still gonna have to think about this one, I'm still to back and forth about it.

Half of me feels strongly yes, and the other half says strongly no.

I guess I just ask that everyone that gets to level 20 is rewarded in some way and not just forgotten about.

[Aspenor]

Monks become native outsiders, not lawful outsiders....

Just thought I'd point that out.

They gain DR 10/magic, and are treated as outsiders for purposes of determining effects of spells, i.e. you are immune to hold person, charm person, dominate person, etc. (you are not a "person").

[Milolyen]

You right, my fear is that it's going to get over done and the balance of things well be knocked off.

Have to stop you right here ... What "balance"? The way I see things right now is that in current game there is next to NO reason to stay pure for most classes because there is a LOT that can be gained via Multiclassing versus very little to be gained through staying pure. Rogue can throw in a few lvls of fighter for extra feats, str, hps and a higher BaB and loose what? a few skill points which they generally have plenty of? Fighter can throw in 2 lvls of rogue and loose what? 1 bab, a few hps, a class feat which they get plenty of and gain what? Evasion, possibly umd or other rogue skills, sneak attack dmg when they don't have agroe, I miss anything? This is just a couple examples I am sure others can point out more with paladin, bards and most of the others. Seems to me the "balance" is already knocked way off and capstones at lvl 20 is a way to bring it back in line.

*edit*
Added after reading more of your post. Your "candy" came when you got the beniefts of multiclassing. List off the reasons you chose to multiclass ... that would be your "candy". Those that chose to stay pure didn't get that "candy" and wont get it. They just get something else later. Two kids get a candy bar just outside the store ... one eats it right away and the other eats it when they get home. What gives the first one the right to complain about not having a candy bar when the second one starts eating his?

*second edit*
Your also seeing this as a "reward" which it really isn't ... it is a lvl 20 enhancement same as the lvl 1 - 19 enhancements it just requires you to not multiclass. Same thing happened with crit rage 2 when it first came out and the cap was lvl 14. You had to be a pure barb to get it. Should a 12 fighter/4 barb have access to crit rage 2 because he has barb in him? No. Should a lvl 6 ranger/10 barb have access to all the FE bonuses just because he has 6 lvls of ranger? No. Should a lvl 18 fighter/2 monk get access to a lvl 20 fighter enhancement just because he has 18 lvls of fighter in him? No. Should they create enhancements from lvl 1-20? Yes.

Milolyen

[Hanza]

I can't believe that people are seriously suggesting class respects. That would destroy the game. For a number of reasons that I believe are obvious.

Multi-classing you can splash and receive the best abilities of three different classes. You can be a Paladin with evasion or a rogue with charisma added to you saves. The capstone enhancement that was posted did not seem that powerful, outweighing that type of advantage.
Would it be better if capstones had splash abilities?
Such as Wis to Ac (monk) 1 level
Tempest speed increase (ranger) 6
Charisma to saves (paladin) 2
Evasion (Rogue or Monk) 2
Is the capstone posted really that great?
Look most of us realized that there would be enhancements and feats at 20th level. Abilities that only that class would get. If you are a caster you understand that unless you get to a certain level you will not be able to cast certain spells. If you are Barabrian you must get to 14 to get you last crit rage enhancement. How could you not foresee that there would be other abilities like this later in the game?

[Borror0]

I can't believe that people are seriously suggesting class respects. That would destroy the game. For a number of reasons that I believe are obvious.
I don't see that. Elaborate on those "obvious reasons".

How could you not foresee that there would be other abilities like this later in the game?
Whether or not they were predictable, it, by no means, excuse the situation.

[Mhykke]

I can't believe that people are seriously suggesting class respects. That would destroy the game. For a number of reasons that I believe are obvious.



I believe we should respect all classes.

[Turial]

I can't believe that people are seriously suggesting class respects. That would destroy the game. For a number of reasons that I believe are obvious.

Multi-classing you can splash and receive the best abilities of three different classes. You can be a Paladin with evasion or a rogue with charisma added to you saves. The capstone enhancement that was posted did not seem that powerful, outweighing that type of advantage.
Would it be better if capstones had splash abilities?
Such as Wis to Ac (monk) 1 level
Tempest speed increase (ranger) 6
Charisma to saves (paladin) 2
Evasion (Rogue or Monk) 2
Is the capstone posted really that great?
Look most of us realized that there would be enhancements and feats at 20th level. Abilities that only that class would get. If you are a caster you understand that unless you get to a certain level you will not be able to cast certain spells. If you are Barabrian you must get to 14 to get you last crit rage enhancement. How could you not foresee that there would be other abilities like this later in the game?

No but the cleric one has a bit more oomph to it.

[frugal_gourmet]

I don't see that. Elaborate on those "obvious reasons".


They're obvious, Borror. Think harder.

[Mhykke]

No but the cleric one has a bit more oomph to it.

But still not overpowered compared to some cleric/x splashes.

[Borror0]

They're obvious, Borror. Think harder.
Ok, now I am really curious... examples?

[frugal_gourmet]

Ok, now I am really curious... examples?


Keep thinking. Their abundant obviousness will soon make them known.

[Borror0]

Keep thinking. Their abundant obviousness will soon make them known.
...like allowing to switch to something cooler? That's plus in an everchanging game.

[frugal_gourmet]

...like allowing to switch to something cooler? That's plus in an everchanging game.


No, no... Um.... they're... like... way more... obvious... and stuff. Yup. Uh huh.

Pretty soon they'll hit ya.

[Borror0]

pretty Soon They'll Hit Ya.
Lol

[Aerendil]

I believe we should respect all classes.

Lol, thanks Mhykke.
I chortled. Didn't quite guffaw, though. But it was definitely a chortle.

[Mhykke]

Lol, thanks Mhykke.
I chortled. Didn't quite guffaw, though. But it was definitely a chortle.

:)

[EightyFour]

Have to stop you right here ... What "balance"? The way I see things right now is that in current game there is next to NO reason to stay pure for most classes because there is a LOT that can be gained via Multiclassing versus very little to be gained through staying pure. Rogue can throw in a few lvls of fighter for extra feats, str, hps and a higher BaB and loose what? a few skill points which they generally have plenty of? Fighter can throw in 2 lvls of rogue and loose what? 1 bab, a few hps, a class feat which they get plenty of and gain what? Evasion, possibly umd or other rogue skills, sneak attack dmg when they don't have agroe, I miss anything? This is just a couple examples I am sure others can point out more with paladin, bards and most of the others. Seems to me the "balance" is already knocked way off and capstones at lvl 20 is a way to bring it back in line.

*edit*
Added after reading more of your post. Your "candy" came when you got the beniefts of multiclassing. List off the reasons you chose to multiclass ... that would be your "candy". Those that chose to stay pure didn't get that "candy" and wont get it. They just get something else later. Two kids get a candy bar just outside the store ... one eats it right away and the other eats it when they get home. What gives the first one the right to complain about not having a candy bar when the second one starts eating his?

*second edit*
Your also seeing this as a "reward" which it really isn't ... it is a lvl 20 enhancement same as the lvl 1 - 19 enhancements it just requires you to not multiclass. Same thing happened with crit rage 2 when it first came out and the cap was lvl 14. You had to be a pure barb to get it. Should a 12 fighter/4 barb have access to crit rage 2 because he has barb in him? No. Should a lvl 6 ranger/10 barb have access to all the FE bonuses just because he has 6 lvls of ranger? No. Should a lvl 18 fighter/2 monk get access to a lvl 20 fighter enhancement just because he has 18 lvls of fighter in him? No. Should they create enhancements from lvl 1-20? Yes.

Milolyen

It is a reward, but only because it is exclusive to pure classes. But I'll think on what you have said here.

Also it's more like two kids got candy from their parents, one kid got his first and got a tootsie roll, the second kid got his later and got a butterfinger. All right, all candy aside here because I don't want to trun this is to a debate about what class got what candy.

Their are some characters that got some benefits from multi classing, like UMD for example on a tank, that tank spends 2 skill points every level to make that worth while, and tanks don't have many skill points to spend, that tank gave up two other skills that he/she could max out plus one bab for that maxed out skill in umd, the only thing a pure build gives up is the fact that they did not multi class. Plus the multi class has to cut off enhancement lines and other such, for every class you pick up of another class you have to trade something in exchange, normally you would think that this would be a good trade. Like the fighter that gives up 3 levels of fighter and replaces it with paladin, he loses two feats but gains four nice abilities, fear immunity, disease immunity, a couple of lay on hands, and the ability to use his cha to help his saves if he has cha to do that. A nice trade, but what if the fighter capstone is greater than the trade for the immunity to fear which can be replaced, immunity to disease which can be replaced. Is two lay on hands and maybe a +3 to +5 stacking saves bonus worth the fighter capstone, we shall see.

I'm saying here is that the multi classes earned their right to those extra ability's, I don't know if to me, pure classes have earned their way, they didn't trade anything for these ability's, they just made the choice not to trade a level or two, that's their only trade, I just don't feel that it is a very balanced trade, it maybe at some point that it well be better to be pure class over multi class.

Anyway, I'll wait and see, it looks as though it's already gonna go through, so it's not like any amount of me saying that I think this maybe a bad thing is going to change it.

[Mhykke]

. Plus the multi class has to cut off enhancement lines and other such, for every class you pick up of another class you have to trade something in exchange, normally you would think that this would be a good trade. Like the fighter that gives up 3 levels of fighter and replaces it with paladin, he loses two feats but gains four nice abilities, fear immunity, disease immunity, a couple of lay on hands, and the ability to use his cha to help his saves if he has cha to do that. A nice trade, but what if the fighter capstone is greater than the trade for the immunity to fear which can be replaced, immunity to disease which can be replaced. Is two lay on hands and maybe a +3 to +5 stacking saves bonus worth the fighter capstone, we shall see.

I'm saying here is that the multi classes earned their right to those extra ability's, I don't know if to me, pure classes have earned their way, they didn't trade anything for these ability's, they just made the choice not to trade a level or two, that's their only trade, I just don't feel that it is a very balanced trade, it maybe at some point that it well be better to be pure class over multi class.

Anyway, I'll wait and see, it looks as though it's already gonna go through, so it's not like any amount of me saying that I think this maybe a bad thing is going to change it.

In your tank example, the tank chose to multiclass. Now, he can use heal scrolls or wands, or any kind of equipment. That's a pretty huge ability. If we assume the fighter enhancements to be equal in power to the cleric and monk capstones, I'd be hard pressed to say that one gives a much bigger advantage than another.

As for cutting off enhancement lines, that's what the character does when he multiclasses. When multiclassing, that person has already decided the benefits are greater from the multiclass than not cutting off the enhancement lines. And there's a flip side to that. While they cut off enhancements in their class, they open up new enhancements when they multiclass. It's not just a detriment, but also a bonus.

As for multiclasses earning it and pures not trading anything away....You're splitting hairs. Of course pure classes gave something up/traded something away. They gave up the abilities they'd get from multiclassing. They traded away those abilities. Using examples, a lot of people splash 2 rogue or monk, for a variety of reasons, but one of them is evasion. If other capstones are equivalent in power to the 2 already announced, none of them will be as great a benefit as evasion.

[Aspenor]

I'm saying here is that the multi classes earned their right to those extra ability's, I don't know if to me, pure classes have earned their way, they didn't trade anything for these ability's, they just made the choice not to trade a level or two, that's their only trade, I just don't feel that it is a very balanced trade, it maybe at some point that it well be better to be pure class over multi class.

it seems pretty clear you dont understand how overpowered multiclassing is in DDO....

These capstone enhancements will pretty much be required to give any melee'r a reason to keep their classes pure.

Level 20 Monk ability - not all that useful in DDO
Level 20 Fighter Bonus Feat - not all that useful compared to what is gained from a 1 or 2 level splash
Level 20 Rogue - there is no reason to have a pure level 20 rogue in DnD
Level 20 Paladin - There is no reason whatsoever in DND to take level 20 paladin (+1 smite per day, woohoo)
Level 20 Ranger - 5th favored enemy...woohoo....uh, monk splash is way more powerful than this, heck, so is rogue
Level 20 Barbarian - happens to be the only melee class with a useful 20th level ability

[Mhykke]

it seems pretty clear you dont understand how overpowered multiclassing is in DDO....

These capstone enhancements will pretty much be required to give any melee'r a reason to keep their classes pure.

Level 20 Monk ability - not all that useful in DDO
Level 20 Fighter Bonus Feat - not all that useful compared to what is gained from a 1 or 2 level splash
Level 20 Rogue - there is no reason to have a pure level 20 rogue in DnD
Level 20 Paladin - There is no reason whatsoever in DND to take level 20 paladin (+1 smite per day, woohoo)
Level 20 Ranger - 5th favored enemy...woohoo....uh, monk splash is way more powerful than this, heck, so is rogue
Level 20 Barbarian - happens to be the only melee class with a useful 20th level ability

But even for barbs, is an extra 2 str and another will save much better than splashing 2 rogue for evasion? Evasion barbs are pretty beastly now.

[Aspenor]

But even for barbs, is an extra 2 str and another will save much better than splashing 2 rogue for evasion? Evasion barbs are pretty beastly now.

that's not my call to compare it, really. im just saying, barbs are the only melee class that gets anything at level 20 worth having.

[Borror0]

But even for barbs, is an extra 2 str and another will save much better than splashing 2 rogue for evasion? Evasion barbs are pretty beastly now.
At least you can justify going 20 barbarian. Try to justify going 20 rogue. You can't.

[Mhykke]

that's not my call to compare it, really. im just saying, barbs are the only melee class that gets anything at level 20 worth having.

I'm not calling it either way (I'm sticking w/ barb).....

Just pointing out that while barbs may get something other melees don't at 20, the thing they get is arguably not as good as the multiclass splash.

[Borror0]

I'm saying here is that the multi classes earned their right to those extra ability's, I don't know if to me, pure classes have earned their way, they didn't trade anything for these ability's, they just made the choice not to trade a level or two, that's their only trade, I just don't feel that it is a very balanced trade, it maybe at some point that it well be better to be pure class over multi class.
Pure classes sacrificed something, the same way multiclassed character sacrificed.

Multiclassed characters sacrificed whatever they could have gotten by staying pure the same way pure breeds sacrificed what they could have gotten by multiclassing. In DDO, nearly all pure class sacrificed more than multiclassed characters as multiclassed characters are much stronger than pure class characters nearly all the time.

It's simply putting some fairness in the system and creating more options.

[Arkat]

Try to justify going 20 rogue. You can't.

/signed

[Milolyen]

it seems pretty clear you dont understand how overpowered multiclassing is in DDO....

These capstone enhancements will pretty much be required to give any melee'r a reason to keep their classes pure.

Level 20 Monk ability - not all that useful in DDO
Level 20 Fighter Bonus Feat - not all that useful compared to what is gained from a 1 or 2 level splash
Level 20 Rogue - there is no reason to have a pure level 20 rogue in DnD
Level 20 Paladin - There is no reason whatsoever in DND to take level 20 paladin (+1 smite per day, woohoo)
Level 20 Ranger - 5th favored enemy...woohoo....uh, monk splash is way more powerful than this, heck, so is rogue
Level 20 Barbarian - happens to be the only melee class with a useful 20th level ability

I just wanted to quote this for emphases, specially the first line.

In game currently, Most decently built multi-class chars are far better than pure class. If you are looking to maximize dps, ac, survivability then nearly every single char builder out there will direct you to build a multiclass char every time. Don't believe me? Search the last 3 months worth of build requests. I am willing to bet that over 90% of the time it will be a Multiclass char ... Why? because the benefit FAR outweigh the cost of multi-classing.

Milolyen
*Edit* "Directed to Eightyfour" and capstone enhancements are no more of a "reward" than any other enhancement out there. I ask again should a lvl 12 fighter/4 barb have access to crit rage 2? Because from what you are saying you think "Ya he could have gone 2 fighter/14 barb and get crit rage2 but he chose not to and it isn't fair to 'reward' the person that did choose 2 x/14 barb with crit rage 2 and not the 12 fighter/4 barb."

[Inspire]

Try to justify going 20 rogue. You can't.

Do you know the Rogue capstone yet? Edit; My mistake.

[Borror0]

Do you know the Rogue capstone yet?
I'm talking about PnP.

[RobbinB]

Monks become native outsiders, not lawful outsiders....

Just thought I'd point that out.

They gain DR 10/magic, and are treated as outsiders for purposes of determining effects of spells, i.e. you are immune to hold person, charm person, dominate person, etc. (you are not a "person").

In PnP that sounds pretty good, but I dont' think that would stop me from multiclassing in DDO. Between SR and high saves I don't really have to worry too much about charm and hold spells in the first place. As for DR 10/magic, in terms of damage comparison shouldn't that be like 15/magic or 20/magic in DDO to be comparable? And wouldn't it still be useless since lots (or most?) mobs would have "magic" weapons?

I think a flat 10/- would be fair (and I don't think overpowered) and combined with the monk capstone, yeah that would keep me pure. Even a DR 5/- would be ok. I'd have to weigh all the benefits out.

[Inspire]

I'm talking about PnP.

Mb.

[feynman]

Serenity
Prereq: Level 20 Monk, 74 Action points spent
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: You are a paragon of understanding and serenity. Your Concentration is increased by 10 and your centered ki generation is increased by 1.

...

Let us know what you think!
I wish I had known that you guys were going to screw up the capstones this badly; I'm going to delete my 16 monk and roll a 1 monk/6 ranger/9 rogue.

[rimble]

I wish I had known that you guys were going to screw up the capstones this badly; I'm going to delete my 16 monk and roll a 1 monk/6 ranger/9 rogue.

Well, I dunno about all that, but it is just kinda more overkill, at least for my character. He's already gonna have (well, he already DOES have) high Ki generation from Fire Stance, and Tier IV may even give him MORE, and then the capstone MORE again...ugh...too much Ki! I guess 10 more Concentration is kinda cute, I like being able to maintain a slightly higher base Ki for random Abundant Steps and being pre-loaded before a fight, but even that is just more overkill to an extent.

At least level 20 will offer other interesting things aside from this capstone, which is still so cheap I'll probably take it anyways.

[feynman]

Well, I dunno about all that, but it is just kinda more overkill, at least for my character. He's already gonna have (well, he already DOES have) high Ki generation from Fire Stance, and Tier IV may even give him MORE, and then the capstone MORE again...ugh...too much Ki! I guess 10 more Concentration is kinda cute, I like being able to maintain a slightly higher base Ki for random Abundant Steps and being pre-loaded before a fight, but even that is just more overkill to an extent.

At least level 20 will offer other interesting things aside from this capstone, which is still so cheap I'll probably take it anyways.

Right, but the only reason to build a pure monk was that the upper-level monk abilities were phenomenal in PnP; you can call our abilities many things, but not phenomenal.

Basically, I noticed 3 months ago that my 28-point fighter/ranger/rogue was a better character than my 32-point monk in every sense of the word, and my monk was as good as, if not much better than, every other monk I ran into.

Abundant step is very nice, and making TWF work with unarmed was a positive step, but after that, we are just rangers with crappy weapons.

Frankly, I'm a little miffed about wasting so much time on a pure monk; anything after 1 level of monk is a waste.

[Borror0]

Basically, I noticed 3 months ago that my 28-point fighter/ranger/rogue was a better character than my 32-point monk in every sense of the word, and my monk was as good as, if not much better than, every other monk I ran into.
I would be surprised. If your character is mainly fighter, your monk is probably better. If he is TWF, that is.

[Lavain]

The fact of the matter is that if they really want to help out the monk, what they need to do is give monks greensteel handwraps. Especially considering the new spells that are going to be coming out in mod 9 for casters.

[maddmatt70]

The fact of the matter is that if they really want to help out the monk, what they need to do is give monks greensteel handwraps. Especially considering the new spells that are going to be coming out in mod 9 for casters.

They have already stated they are giving monks gs handwraps in mod 9..

[Tanka]

They have already stated they are giving monks gs handwraps in mod 9..
Oh? Let's see the post, because I can't recall a Dev statement on that in the last few months.

[Mhykke]

They have already stated they are giving monks gs handwraps in mod 9..

Matt, you sure about this? I could've bet the last thing on greensteel handwraps the devs mentioned was something along the lines of "there are no plans to include greensteel handwraps at this time."

I hope you're right, greensteel wraps alone would be a huge improvement and would be a great addition.

[maddmatt70]

Matt, you sure about this? I could've bet the last thing on greensteel handwraps the devs mentioned was something along the lines of "there are no plans to include greensteel handwraps at this time."

I hope you're right, greensteel wraps alone would be a huge improvement and would be a great addition.

Yeah, it was posted by somebody in QA and no I don't feel like looking it up. It stated gs handwraps will be coming in mod 9 and they can not promise anything but are trying to fix all the bugged handwraps by mod 9 as well...

[maddmatt70]

Matt, you sure about this? I could've bet the last thing on greensteel handwraps the devs mentioned was something along the lines of "there are no plans to include greensteel handwraps at this time."

I hope you're right, greensteel wraps alone would be a huge improvement and would be a great addition.

I looked back a bit and couldn't find it. I am positive I saw this post and reported it to some friends and guildies way back when it came out. I wouldn't be surprised if they deleted the post. After all it is not in their best interest to announce things of this nature. They want all the monks who made kamas or q-staffs, but really wanted handwraps to go through the grind again. This is what happened in mod 7 release all the weapons everybody wanted so they grind the shroud again without letting them know its out before it came out..

[Hendrik]

They have already stated they are giving monks gs handwraps in mod 9..

I'm sorry mad, but they have not.

:(

[Borror0]

The fact of the matter is that if they really want to help out the monk, what they need to do is give monks greensteel handwraps. Especially considering the new spells that are going to be coming out in mod 9 for casters.
Adding better handwraps will not fix monks. That won't even raise their DPS...

...and DPS is not their main problem either way.

They have already stated they are giving monks gs handwraps in mod 9..
They have not.

[jwelch]

As someone playing a "pure" monk, the new capstone is nice. I have to disagree with the "no justification for a 20th level rogue in PnP", as there's more to being a rogue/thief than "what can I kill today".

At that level, you should be able to get other people to do the killin' for you and bring you the treasure.

Which brings me to the focus of the discussion I was having with my wife (who is a pure rogue, and staying that way), about high level characters. Having played high-level monks, eventually, finding things that were a challenge in a combat setting was ridiculous. However, why not open up other options? (Note: for those only interested in killin' stuff and blowin' stuff up and treasure acquisition, you may want to run, run away fast, because this will discuss things that are dreadfully boring to the Monty Haul set.)

As Turbine starts to ponder life in a post 20th-level Eberron, I would like them to consider ways to let PCs start affecting the landscape more. That is, instead of them creating the environment we play in, let us start having some effect. For example, if you're playing a 20+ Monk, instead of trying to come up with ever more insanely hard crawls/raids, why not let them start a school or a monastery? Or become someone's assassin?

Heck, borrow a page from "The Destroyer" and let someone start the eberron version of Sinanju.

Let higher level characters, if they want, transition from crawling to mentoring/teaching. Let them buy or build buildings, or rent space in one. Let them teach other characters what they know.

This could create some fascinating possibilities. For one, instead of having to create "adventure in a box, just add players", Turbine could start creating less - detailed, areas that are waiting for the players to fill them. If someone starts a school and abandons it, then someone else could take it over, or turn it into something else.

This raises all sorts of interesting possibilities. Royalty. Politics. Factions. Warring guilds. Monastery wars.

All of it created by the players. It could expand the DDO 'universe' in ways Turbine would never be able to create, and it would create a level of ownership & buy-in that yet another glowy thing of power never will.

As DDO moves towards 30th and 40th level, it could even allow PCs who were particularly successful at such creations the ability to create their own feats to bestow upon their dedicated followers.

Is it the WoW model? Maybe not, but so what? Chasing market share gets you no where but second place. Doing something cool because it's cool and sharing it with your customers gets you maybe less market share, but more dedicated players.

How much cooler would the marketplace be if the merchants changed regularly?

How many times can you crawl the same dungeon before you get sick of it all?

When I was playing PnP, sometimes, it was the non-dungeon stuff that was the best part, because that was where you had the most freedom to leave the books and really role play.

Rather than making a ever-higher level version of what we have now, and dooming DDO to a WoW also-ran, why not take that left turn at Albuquerque, and let the players do as much creating...and destroying as Turbine's programming staff?

If nothing else, I think the in-game time spent by people would rise. Nothing inspires you like your own creations.

Just some thoughts...

[Borror0]

+2 to Wisdom would fit with the flavor of Serenity

[Angelus_dead]

As Turbine starts to ponder life in a post 20th-level Eberron, I would like them to consider ways to let PCs start affecting the landscape more. That is, instead of them creating the environment we play in, let us start having some effect. For example, if you're playing a 20+ Monk, instead of trying to come up with ever more insanely hard crawls/raids, why not let them start a school or a monastery? Or become someone's assassin?
Tip: If you have a lengthy and vague suggestion which is completely unrelated to Monk capstones, you will have better results if you put it in some thread aside from one devoted to Monk capstones.

That goes double if the thread is an official discussion started by devs, and double again if the thread is months old.

[Hendrik]

+2 to Wisdom would fit with the flavor of Serenity

That is just making it a copycat of many of the other capstones.

Maybe go checkout YOUR Monk and realize what this means for them and Ki levels and regeneration.

This is a fantastic capstone as is, for ALL Monks.

[Borror0]

This is a fantastic capstone as is, for ALL Monks.
Perhaps you ought to check the thread before replying. You would notice I defended the capstone as being a solid addition.

However, depending on how powerful it really is, a +2 Wisdom bonus would follow the design of other capstones and be extremely fitting for an enhancement named 'Serenity', which is why I suggested this. I don't think that the capstone needs radical improvement, considering that monk 20 gives 10 DR/epic but I thought I could suggest this and let Eladrin judge whether it is a good idea or not.

[Hendrik]

Perhaps you ought to check the thread before replying. You would notice I defended the capstone as being a solid addition.

However, depending on how powerful it really is, a +2 Wisdom bonus would follow the design of other capstones and be extremely fitting for an enhancement named 'Serenity', which is why I suggested this. I don't think that the capstone needs radical improvement, considering that monk 20 gives 10 DR/epic but I thought I could suggest this and let Eladrin judge whether it is a good idea or not.

Forgive my tone B, not directed at you personally. Been a ****-tastic morning and only looks to get worse form here.

Making Capstones +X Primary Class Stat is Ok. However, there are a multitude of options and those other options must be explored first before anyone 'settles' on +X primary stat.

Natural Ki regen anywhere, double Ki at start of a Quest. I would MUCH rather have these over +2 to WIS anyday!

;)

[Yaga_Nub]

Tip: If you have a lengthy and vague suggestion which is completely unrelated to Monk capstones, you will have better results if you put it in some thread aside from one devoted to Monk capstones.

That goes double if the thread is an official discussion started by devs, and double again if the thread is months old.

Really? You're giving out tips like that? Really?






Really?


You?




Did I miss something?

[Hendrik]

Really? You're giving out tips like that? Really?






Really?


You?




Did I miss something?


Pot and Kettle have met!

;)

[Borror0]

Been a ****-tastic morning and only looks to get worse form here.
No worries. It's not the first time this happens, though.

Maybe you should think a little more on the tone you use before pressing 'Submit Reply'. It'd avoid you a few problems. ;)

Making Capstones +X Primary Class Stat is Ok. However, there are a multitude of options and those other options must be explored first before anyone 'settles' on +X primary stat.
I can see where you're getting at, but I disagree.

Capstone are design to be given to every class. Adding a bonus to an important stat to them creates a pattern and makes it more elegant (we have a brain design to see pattern and when we can see none we are usually disgusted - chaos is generally not attractive to us). This is why each class received a bonus to an ability score (Fighter's Strength, Bard's Charisma, etc.)

Really? You're giving out tips like that? Really?
A_d's suggestions are generally related to the capstone, unlike jwelch's.

[Yaga_Nub]

...

A_d's suggestions are generally related to the capstone, unlike jwelch's.

I'm talking about the totality of his body of work not just in this thread. ;)

[Angelus_dead]

Did I miss something?
Yes, you miss a lot.

You frequently make statements about my postings which demonstrate systemic ignorance of what I've actually written.



I'm talking about the totality of his body of work not just in this thread.
You don't know what you're talking about.

[Angelus_dead]

This is a fantastic capstone as is, for ALL Monks.
No. It's worth 2 AP if you were already a monk20... and monk20 has enough else going for it to justify taking that level if you were already at monk19. (There's the unarmed damage and the DR 10)

But it will not make a "fantastic" difference, because it provides a very slow income of a resource you can already acquire quickly. The situations when a monk would want to spend Ki but would not have a monster available to punch are indeed rare, and can be covered by the existing Meditation ability. In fact, since Serenity will only generate Ki up to a low level, it might not even work for purposes such as Rise of the Phoenix.

[Angelus_dead]

However, depending on how powerful it really is, a +2 Wisdom bonus would follow the design of other capstones and be extremely fitting for an enhancement named 'Serenity', which is why I suggested this.
It fits the name, but it's not really good for gameplay.

A monk20 already has superior AC (with stance-based dex or wis higher than any other class can achieve), and tossing +1 onto that doesn't really help anyone. It makes it harder to balance mobs to be able to fight both monks and non-monks, without actually helping in the area of a monk's combat weakness, which is DPS (especially as compared to multiclass monks).

A more effective thing might be something like "On a confirmed critical threat, you may use your wisdom mod to damage in place of strength"

[Coldin]

In fact, since Serenity will only generate Ki up to a low level, it might not even work for purposes such as Rise of the Phoenix.

Rise of the Pheonix requires 50 Ki. My Monk currently has a Concentration Score of 36 with a +13 item. 20th level plus the capstone means he'll be at least looking at a 50 concentration score, possibly higher.

So, assuming that Serenity brings your Ki back up to your concentration skill, then it would be possible to use Rise of the Phoenix just from Serenity alone.

This capstone really just falls along the lines of a nice bonus for Monks on top of everything else.

[Hendrik]

No. It's worth 2 AP if you were already a monk20... and monk20 has enough else going for it to justify taking that level if you were already at monk19. (There's the unarmed damage and the DR 10)

But it will not make a "fantastic" difference, because it provides a very slow income of a resource you can already acquire quickly. The situations when a monk would want to spend Ki but would not have a monster available to punch are indeed rare, and can be covered by the existing Meditation ability. In fact, since Serenity will only generate Ki up to a low level, it might not even work for purposes such as Rise of the Phoenix.

In fact, you are wrong.

With Serenity, and a Concentration of 40+10 with Capstone = 50. +1 Regen means you start with 100 Ki before you start to decay and you regen up to that 100 Ki.

100 Ki, in this example, is no where near a low number unless you self gimped your Monk with a low Concentration.

[Coldin]

In fact, you are wrong.

With Serenity, and a Concentration of 40+10 with Capstone = 50. +1 Regen means you start with 100 Ki before you start to decay and you regen up to that 100 Ki.

100 Ki, in this example, is no where near a low number unless you self gimped your Monk with a low Concentration.

Regen up to 100 Ki? Where are you getting 100 Ki from?

[Hendrik]

Regen up to 100 Ki? Where are you getting 100 Ki from?

Math.

[Coldin]

Math.

I feel so enlightened.

From what I know about the Ki system, you balance out at a Ki equal to your concentration skill. But you're saying above that you would balance out at double that. Mind explaining how you came to that?

[Borror0]

Math.
Assuming 10 Concentration:

from 0 to 9, +2 Ki
at 10, +1
10 to 20, 0 Ki
21+, -x Ki

The advantage of this capstone is that you waste less Ki and gain some slightly faster.

Whether it ends up being significant, is another topic.

[Angelus_dead]

From what I know about the Ki system, you balance out at a Ki equal to your concentration skill. But you're saying above that you would balance out at double that. Mind explaining how you came to that?
The capstone will change the system.

Current Monk16: Ki below concen is retained. Ki above concen slowly drains away.
Future Monk20 + Serenity: Ki below concen slowly grows. Ki below concen*2 is retained. Ki above concen*2 slowly drains.

However, regardless of how much you can generate up to (which will be nearly 50, by how much concen I estimate people will have), it's still not impressive, because the Ki ticks are pretty slow.

[Coldin]

Assuming 10 Concentration:

from 0 to 9, +2 Ki
at 10, +1
10 to 20, 0 Ki
21+, -x Ki

The advantage of this capstone is that you waste less Ki and gain some slightly faster.

Whether it ends up being significant, is another topic.

Hmm, you think it will be +2 Ki from 0-9? I was thinking it was +1 the entire way.

0-9, +1 Ki
at 10, +0 Ki
10-20, +0 Ki
20+, -x +1 Ki

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what Eladrin means by Ki regen.

[rimble]

Hmm, you think it will be +2 Ki from 0-9? I was thinking it was +1 the entire way.

0-9, +1 Ki
at 10, +0 Ki
10-20, +0 Ki
20+, -x +1 Ki

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what Eladrin means by Ki regen.

Yeah, that's what I thought too...right now, standing around, Ki regen = 0. Sitting down to meditate, Ki regen scales from +5 to 0 (or whatever, I so rarely meditate). With Serenity, standing around, Ki regen = 1 up to Concentration. Ki above Concentration degrades a little slower, as you've illustrated. I imagine it ticks as often as it does when you meditate. Going from 0 to 50 ki will take some time, but I guess it will be nice to have it tank up while you're idling and out of combat.