Fighter Kensai Preview

[Eladrin]

I've dro (http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt283/itsapuzzle/01100100.jpg?t=1243551853)pped a few bits of information previously on some of the various Prestige Enhancements currently scheduled for Module 9 in various threads. Each week, I'll be posting one of these or a capstone enhancement to let you see what I'm working on. As usual, they're all still subject to change in playtest, and I ask that people not freak out too much about being "nerfed" or "buffed" if they do, or I'll have to stop since The Cube won't let me post them anymore. :)

Let's start with the kensai.

---

Fighter Kensai I
Cost: 4 AP
Prereqs: Level 6 Fighter, Fighter Attack Boost II, Fighter Critical Accuracy II, any Weapon Specialization feat.
Benefit: You are the unrivaled master of your chosen weapon. Your focus and training grant you a +1 bonus to Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, and Intimidate skills, Combat Feat DC's, saves against magic, and number of Action Boosts per day. If you possess a Ki bar, you gain 1 additional Ki on criticals and when meditating. You can select a single weapon type as your signature weapon.

Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery I
Cost: 1 AP
Prereqs: Level 6 Fighter, Fighter Kensai I, Weapon Specialization: <appropriate weapon type>
Benefit (One handed, ranged, or thrown weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit and damage, and +2 to confirm criticals and critical damage (before multipliers) when using a <weapon>.
Benefit (Two handed weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit, +2 to damage and to confirm criticals and +4 to critical damage (before multipliers), as well as improved glancing blows that have a chance of applying magical weapon effects when using a <weapon>.

---

The kensai masters body, mind, weapon, and will. The "ki projection" ability of the prestige class has been changed into a passive ability, and we've given the kensai a number of passive combat bonuses to reflect their mastery of their chosen weapon. The base prestige class requires a specific weapon, but we've expanded that as well to all longswords instead of just "the one given to me by my lord".

We also chose to give it some synergy with the monk class. The base prestige class possesses a strong Eastern warrior-monk philosophy to it, so it seemed natural to make this a potentially desirable multiclass option.

---

Fighter Kensai II
Cost: 2 AP
Prereqs: Level 12 Fighter, Fighter Kensai I, Fighter Attack Boost III, Fighter Critical Accuracy III, any Greater Weapon Specialization feat.
Benefit: Your focus and training improve, granting an additional +1 bonus to Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, and Intimidate skills, Combat Feat DC's, saves against magic, and number of Action Boosts per day. If you possess a Ki bar, you gain 1 additional Ki on criticals and when meditating.

Kensai Power Surge
Benefit: You may expend a Fighter attack boost to focus your energy and spirit, gaining a +8 Insight bonus to strength for a short period of time. If you possess the ability to generate Ki, you generate an additional 2 ki on successful attacks during your surge.

Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery II
Cost: 1 AP
Prereqs: Level 12 Fighter, Fighter Kensai II, Fighter <Specific Weapon> Specialization I, Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery I, Greater Weapon Specialization: <appropriate weapon type>
Benefit (One handed, ranged, or thrown weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit and damage, and +2 to confirm criticals and critical damage (before multipliers) when using a <weapon>.
Benefit (Two handed weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit, +2 to damage and to confirm criticals and +4 to critical damage (before multipliers), as well as improved glancing blows that have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects when using a <weapon>.

---

Power surge is one of the defining abilities of the kensai.

---
Fighter Kensai III
Cost: 2 AP
Prereqs: Level 18 Fighter, Fighter Kensai II, Fighter Attack Boost IV, Fighter Critical Accuracy IV, any Superior Weapon Focus.
Benefit: Your focus and training are complete, granting an additional +1 bonus to Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, and Intimidate skills, Combat Feat DC's, saves against magic, and number of Action Boosts per day. If you possess a Ki bar, you gain 1 additional Ki on criticals and when meditating.

Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery III
Cost: 1 AP
Prereqs: Level 18 Fighter, Fighter Kensai III, Fighter <Specific Weapon> Specialization II, Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery II, Superior Weapon Focus: <appropriate weapon type>
Benefit: You gain +1 critical threat range with your signature weapon.

---

Critical threat range increases will be rarer in the future, but we thought it appropriate that the undisputed master of a specific weapon would have access to such a powerful ability. Precision is the mark of a true swordmaster.

Edit:
Since it came up in the discussion, the Two Handed Fighting chain of feats has also been changed to increase (from zero) the chance of glancing blows producing magical weapon effects.

[ArkoHighStar]

mmmm prc goodness

[Laith]

I've dropped a few bits of information previously on some of the various Prestige Enhancements currently scheduled for Module 9 in various threads. Each week, I'll be posting one of these or a capstone enhancement to let you see what I'm working on. As usual, they're all still subject to change in playtest, and I ask that people not freak out too much about being "nerfed" or "buffed" if they do, or I'll have to stop since The Cube won't let me post them anymore. :)
thanks!

[ArkoHighStar]

awesome

Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery III
Cost: 1 AP
Prereqs: Level 18 Fighter, Fighter Kensai III, Fighter <Specific Weapon> Specialization II, Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery II, Superior Weapon Focus: <appropriate weapon type>
Benefit: You gain +1 critical threat range with your signature weapon.

[KatanAztar]

You should allow the human versatility boosts as a substitute for the fighter attack boost.

[vyvy3369]

Isn't it somewhat odd to have the first tier cost more than any of the others?

[Eladrin]

You should allow the human versatility boosts as a substitute for the fighter attack boost.
I've got other plans for Human Versatility in a future mod, don't worry about that.

Fighter Attack Boost was selected for the Kensai because it fit thematically the best by far - the swordmaster never misses!

Edit:

Isn't it somewhat odd to have the first tier cost more than any of the others?
This is the standard cost progression for the Prestige Enhancements. 4/2/2, or 4/1/1/1/1 if it's a five tier one like Arcane Archer.

[ArkoHighStar]

lets see some number crunching will this help THF close the gap


Kensai I
Benefit (One handed, ranged, or thrown weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit and damage, and +2 to confirm criticals and critical damage (before multipliers) when using a <weapon>.
Benefit (Two handed weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit, +2 to damage and to confirm criticals and +4 to critical damage (before multipliers), as well as improved glancing blows that have a chance of applying magical weapon effects when using a <weapon>.

Kensai 2
Benefit (One handed, ranged, or thrown weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit and damage, and +2 to confirm criticals and critical damage (before multipliers) when using a <weapon>.
Benefit (Two handed weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit, +2 to damage and to confirm criticals and +4 to critical damage (before multipliers), as well as improved glancing blows that have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects when using a <weapon>.


and is the damage bonus a stacked one so you get a total of +3 to base damage

[Vorn]

I guess the requirement of the attack boost wouldn't be so bad since I'd never use it, I'd use the powersurges instead. I'd never take attack boost for itself though as my fighter never misses anything anyway, for the most part.

Now to pull out the calculator and see how much of the haste boost I can keep.

[KatanAztar]

I've got other plans for Human Versatility in a future mod, don't worry about that.

Fighter Attack Boost was selected for the Kensai because it fit thematically the best by far - the swordmaster never misses!

Edit:

This is the standard cost progression for the Prestige Enhancements. 4/2/2, or 4/1/1/1/1 if it's a five tier one like Arcane Archer.

Does this mean we are getting rid of these boosts and getting a different form of versatility?

[Aerendil]

Wow.

[Turial]

I've dropped a few bits of information previously on some of the various Prestige Enhancements currently scheduled for Module 9 in various threads. Each week, I'll be posting one of these or a capstone enhancement to let you see what I'm working on. As usual, they're all still subject to change in playtest, and I ask that people not freak out too much about being "nerfed" or "buffed" if they do, or I'll have to stop since The Cube won't let me post them anymore. ......

Hurray Information!

Thanks Eladrin.

[Kaish]

What would be super, is to put all the future class enhancement in the same thread so that people who get lost in all those threads (like me for example) can track them with more ease.

[maddmatt70]

Just a few comments.
1. Tier 2 and tier 3 are very respectable and more inline with other classes which is great.

2. Tier 1 is still disappointing in comparison to Tempest 1 so it is much better to go 12 fighter 6 ranger then 12 ranger 6 fighter which I feel shouldn't be the case.

3. I am not a 100% sure that this is enough actually. It makes the fighter competitive with the other classes as they currently stand but vs. rangers at level 20 with tempest 2 and tempest 3 and barbarians with their prc and barb crit rage 2 and paladins with their prc and zeal and divine might I am not sure will be competitive.

4. Tier 3 although nice is very pro rapier again. This game is in danger of becoming all piercing specced players. I am not sure how to fix that well anyway up to you.

[bobbryan2]

Is the +1 to threat range before or after Improved Critical.

Would a heavy pick with Imp Crit Pierce go to 18-20 or 17-20?

[Silverjade]

I've dropped a few bits of information previously on some of the various Prestige Enhancements currently scheduled for Module 9 in various threads. Each week, I'll be posting one of these or a capstone enhancement to let you see what I'm working on. As usual, they're all still subject to change in playtest, and I ask that people not freak out too much about being "nerfed" or "buffed" if they do, or I'll have to stop since The Cube won't let me post them anymore. :)

Let's start with the kensai.

---


Kensai Power Surge[/B]
Benefit: You may expend a Fighter attack boost to focus your energy and spirit, gaining a +8 Insight bonus to strength for a short period of time. If you possess the ability to generate Ki, you generate an additional 2 ki on successful attacks during your surge.

Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery II
Cost: 1 AP
Prereqs: Level 12 Fighter, Fighter Kensai II, Fighter <Specific Weapon> Specialization I, Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery I, Greater Weapon Specialization: <appropriate weapon type>
Benefit (One handed, ranged, or thrown weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit and damage, and +2 to confirm criticals and critical damage (before multipliers) when using a <weapon>.
Benefit (Two handed weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit, +2 to damage and to confirm criticals and +4 to critical damage (before multipliers), as well as improved glancing blows that have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects when using a <weapon>.

---

Power surge is one of the defining abilities of the kensai.

---

Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery III
Cost: 1 AP
Prereqs: Level 18 Fighter, Fighter Kensai III, Fighter <Specific Weapon> Specialization II, Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery II, Superior Weapon Focus: <appropriate weapon type>
Benefit: You gain +1 critical threat range with your signature weapon.

---

Critical threat range increases will be rarer in the future, but we thought it appropriate that the undisputed master of a specific weapon would have access to such a powerful ability. Precision is the mark of a true swordmaster.

+8str????? DROOL!!!!!:eek::D would let my ftr when madstoned(2time)raged get a 48str i thinks!

[Laith]

Fighter Kensai II
Cost: 2 AP
Prereqs: Level 12 Fighter, Fighter Kensai I, Fighter Attack Boost III, Fighter Critical Accuracy III, any Greater Weapon Specialization feat.
Benefit: Your focus and training improve, granting an additional +1 bonus to Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, and Intimidate skills, Combat Feat DC's, saves against magic, and number of Action Boosts per day. If you possess a Ki bar, you gain 1 additional Ki on criticals and when meditating.

Kensai Power Surge
Benefit: You may expend a Fighter attack boost to focus your energy and spirit, gaining a +8 Insight bonus to strength for a short period of time. If you possess the ability to generate Ki, you generate an additional 2 ki on successful attacks during your surge.

Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery II
Cost: 1 AP
Prereqs: Level 12 Fighter, Fighter Kensai II, Fighter <Specific Weapon> Specialization I, Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery I, Greater Weapon Specialization: <appropriate weapon type>
Benefit (One handed, ranged, or thrown weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit and damage, and +2 to confirm criticals and critical damage (before multipliers) when using a <weapon>.
Benefit (Two handed weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit, +2 to damage and to confirm criticals and +4 to critical damage (before multipliers), as well as improved glancing blows that have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects when using a <weapon>.

---

Power surge is one of the defining abilities of the kensai.given it's location, i'm guessing that Power Surge is granted from the tierII kensai enhancements. is that correct?
(it's not mentioned in other enhancement descriptions, and there's no cost or prereqs associated with it directly)

[ArkoHighStar]

any idea on what percentage will this go off


as well as improved glancing blows that have a chance of applying magical weapon effects when using a <weapon>.

[ShadowFox1978]

Is the +1 to threat range before or after Improved Critical.

Would a heavy pick with Imp Crit Pierce go to 18-20 or 17-20?

It would work just like barb crit rage. Improved crit applied first, then the threat increase from kensai.

[Silverjade]

Oh, will the +8 Insight bonus to strength stack with tomes ?

[bobbryan2]

It would work just like barb crit rage. Improved crit applied first, then the threat increase from kensai.

If it works like Barb crit rage...

Which is the point of asking.

[Turial]

Oh, will the +8 Insight bonus to strength stack with tomes ?

It should.

[ShadowFox1978]

Oh, will the +8 Insight bonus to strength stack with tomes ?

Tomea re Inherent not insight, and enhancements have always stacked.

[Tin_Dragon]

+8 insight, Tomes are a permant +'x', INHERENT bonus, so YES.

[Silverjade]

nvm was thing shroud stuff lol.

[The_Phenx]

Eladrin.

With the power surge I can loose my complaints about fighters attack boost being useless, since we will be able to spend those uses on a +8 str boost. SO ... :D

I have a couple important questions if you would be so kind.

1. Will this function like showtime in the fact that we will be able to click the Kensai Power Surge, then click off a fighters speed boost at the same time to stack the +8 str and 30% alacrity?

2. Are there any plans to revisit the costs of fighters armor mastery/shield mastery? As Kensai will be a very expensive line, and it will help to free up much needed action points, allowing fighters to keep their ac up as well as specalize. Perhaps making them 1pt 2 pt 3pt each, as opposed to the 12pt total they each are now?

[ShadowFox1978]

nvm was thing shroud stuff lol.

Shroud stuff is exceptional not insight.

[bobbryan2]

As much as Fighter Attack Boost 'fits' Kensai... it's still kinda blah that Fighter Haste Boost will still do more damage than the power surges. (At first glance, anyway).

30% of 50 damage comes out to basically 15 damage extra per swing.

+8 strength comes out to 6 damage per swing

Sure, the strength gives you a 'to hit' bonus as well... but that's a pretty big discrepancy between damage totals.

Maybe power surge could also give a +6 to damage? Similar to how Ram's Might works? Remember... Haste boost also speeds up proc rates of W/P and Lightning Strike.

[Paladin20]

That is just plain SICK.

[ShadowFox1978]

If it works like Barb crit rage...

Which is the point of asking.

It is worded just like crit rage, and if they applied it pre-feat it would be a 2 step increase. 2 step in one enhancment is to good to be true, even for a top tier enhancment.


All in all, I think it is shaping up to make fighters more in line, even if it is a bit expensive currently. We can hope they revist the AP cost.

[Yaga_Nub]

All in all, I think it is shaping up to make fighters more in line, even if it is a bit expensive currently. We can hope they revist the AP cost.

I don't think it's expensive at all. It's not 3 out of 6 feats + APs expensive.

[MrCow]

As much as Fighter Attack Boost 'fits' Kensai... it's still kinda blah that Fighter Haste Boost will still do more damage than the power surges. (At first glance, anyway).

30% of 50 damage comes out to basically 15 damage extra per swing.

+8 strength comes out to 6 damage per swing

Sure, the strength gives you a 'to hit' bonus as well... but that's a pretty big discrepancy between damage totals.

There are other bonuses that the +8 STR has, such as increasing your DC on things like improved trip, stunning blow, and resistance to knockdown.

[ShadowFox1978]

I don't think it's expensive at all. It's not 3 out of 6 feats + APs expensive.

Expensive in that it will cost more than 1/4 of all AP at level 20, but then again the benifits may be worth it, time will tell.

[bobbryan2]

There are other bonuses that the +8 STR has, such as increasing your DC on things like improved trip, stunning blow, and resistance to knockdown.

Yeah, but my very quick numbers were ignoring bonuses such as bard songs, critical hits, and prayer.

All of those things increase haste boosts' damage, while leaving power surge static. In reality, it's probably a bigger discrepancy between damage totals than what I originally posted.

What if the power surge had the +8 strength, and also gave a +12-15% speed boost. While the +8 strength is nice in the +4 bonus to DCs and resistance to knock down... I think those things are tertiary to damage totals.

[The_Phenx]

Critical threat range increases will be rarer in the future, but we thought it appropriate that the undisputed master of a specific weapon would have access to such a powerful ability. Precision is the mark of a true swordmaster.

I've often thoguht the critical rage enhancement for barbs should have been additional multiplier not range...

Cheers...

W/P will rule for stat... Kopesh will still rule for dps, so I'm all good.

[The_Phenx]

Eladrin 1 more question no one seems to be asking.

Tier I and II grant +1 to hit +1 Damage +2 to confirm and +2 to crit damage.

SO my question is

Is the +4 to critical damage in addition to the +2 to damage or instead of.

So is it a total of +6 pre multiplier damage or +4?

[Aerendil]

I've often thoguht the critical rage enhancement for barbs should have been additional multiplier not range...

Cheers...

W/P will rule for stat... Kopesh will still rule for dps, so I'm all good.


Agreed 100% Phenx. Barbarians are about power, and damage multipliers would reflect that.
Kensai are about precision and skill, hence crit threat range mods.

Congrats to the Fighters. Nice way to end the work week, with that little bomb!

[Junts]

Just a few comments.
1. Tier 2 and tier 3 are very respectable and more inline with other classes which is great.

2. Tier 1 is still disappointing in comparison to Tempest 1 so it is much better to go 12 fighter 6 ranger then 12 ranger 6 fighter which I feel shouldn't be the case.

3. I am not a 100% sure that this is enough actually. It makes the fighter competitive with the other classes as they currently stand but vs. rangers at level 20 with tempest 2 and tempest 3 and barbarians with their prc and barb crit rage 2 and paladins with their prc and zeal and divine might I am not sure will be competitive.

4. Tier 3 although nice is very pro rapier again. This game is in danger of becoming all piercing specced players. I am not sure how to fix that well anyway up to you.



you know, they've said a few times that tempest I will change when tempest II and III come in, so you probably dont want to make that direct comparison just yet - tempest 1 (and warchanter/spellsinger 1) basically give you tier 2 in the same enhancement right now

[maddmatt70]

you know, they've said a few times that tempest I will change when tempest II and III come in, so you probably dont want to make that direct comparison just yet - tempest 1 (and warchanter/spellsinger 1) basically give you tier 2 in the same enhancement right now

I heard them hint at this before. I have very mixed feelings regarding a change to tempest. Alot of players have built characters with 6 levels of ranger and then to nerf that out is very harsh. Hah, I for instance am leveling up a rogue with 6 ranger levels. It is rough to suddenly alter players' builds that have been out there a long time, although mine has not been. Some people made chars almost a year ago with just 6 level of ranger or so. I would rather tempest 1,2, 3 not change tempest 1, but other classes get similar power points. As long as the mobs at end game make any sense at all this if it were like this it would be the preferred option in my opinion.

[Aesop]

Sorry I know you are trying I'm just a little underwhelmed.

Barbarians get 2 Critical Enhancements 4 levels earlier than Fighters get 1... and theres come without Prerequisites and cost less... I understand you are trying to tone this back a little ... but its just not as awe inspiring as I was hoping given the disparity between the classes thus far. I mean if this is the case I forsee that when the Barbarian PrEs show up that Crit Rage will go away and be incorporated into that.

Power Surge. How long does it last? 20 Sec like the Boost which you can't use at the same time as other Boosts... or is this going to be 1 min like the Rogue "Show Time". I'm hoping the latter.

+2 Attack
+2 Damage (+4 for THF)
+3 trip
+3 sunder
+3 Stunning Blow
+3 reflex (vs "magic")
+3 Will (vs "magic")
+3 fort (vs "magic")
+3 Intim
+3 Bluff
+3 Conc
+3 Diplo
+4 Seeker (+8 for THF)
+3 Action Boosts
its an impressive list ... I'm just not sure its impressive enough. Also what's the bonus for single handed over thf? THF get additional benefit of improved Glancing Blows... what about a single weapon combatant?


Then there is the cost

Action boost 4 = 10
Crit Accuracy 4 = 10
tier 1=4
tier 1a =1
tier 2 =2
tier 2a =1
tier 3=2
tier 3a=1

31 AP and 5 Feat

HotD for Paladins is 29 AP total and no Feat Requirements and has what I'd say is more powerful effects over all. Applying Ghost Touch to all Weapons, immunity to Energy Drain and the ability to "Vorpal" undead... just seems to overpower this PrE ... and that isn't the only benefits of the PrE.


Anyway just my perspective... I may change my mind when I start playing it but it sorta feels the same way it did when i saw Deepwoods Sniper sitting next to Tempest... just not far enough

Aesop

[Aesop]

Eladrin 1 more question no one seems to be asking.

Each tier grants +1 to hit +1 Damage +2 to confirm and +2 to crit damage.

This means at tier three

+3 to hit +3 to damage +6 to confirm +6 to critical damage...

The question is..

Is the +6 to critical damage in addition to the +3 to damage or instead of.

So is it a total of +9 pre multiplier damage or +6?

Actually tier three is just the increased critical range no to hit or damage upgrade nor are there and more Seeker Effects


so a S&B fighter gets +2 to hit +2 Damage and +4 Seeker

a THF gets +2 to Hit +4 tp Damage and +8 Seeker and better Glancing BLows...

not thrilled here.

this PrE is leaned very heavily towards paper fighters weilding Greataxes


I like the idea of leaning more towards damage base and less on the Stat Damage ... but not like this.

both forms should be equal on the Seeker at the very least THF will already get more out of the Power Surge ability.

Aesop

[The_Phenx]

Its +3 to all skills etc Aesop

3 extra uses per rest of all action boosts (I will assume haste boost as well) So 8 haste boosts and 8 Power surges per rest.

+1 to crit range

Oh and I saw my error from before.

So if its +2 damage and +4 seeker that means +2 damage per hit and +6 pre multiplier per crit... its an extra enhancement driven bloodstone with +10% more critty goodness.

Assuming power surge works like showtime even if its only 20 sec... thats another +4 damage on top... which will be on a seperate timer from haste boost. So your talking +10 pre crit damage with 30% alacrity boost... thats a disgusting figure. And guarantee you will only miss on a 1 and never fail to confirm a crit. Looks to put a guy with an ubuffed 32 str into the 160+ range for base crit damage, add in bard buffs rages... ya... itll be nasty.

[Aesop]

Its +3 to all those listed above.

3 extra uses per rest of all action boosts (I will assume haste boost as well)

+1 to crit range

fixed ... its only +2 to hit and 2/4 to damage and 4/8 to Seeker

[Thrudh]

Barbarians get 2 Critical Enhancements 4 levels earlier than Fighters get 1... and theres come without Prerequisites and cost less... I understand you are trying to tone this back a little ... but its just not as awe inspiring as I was hoping given the disparity between the classes thus far. I mean if this is the case I forsee that when the Barbarian PrEs show up that Crit Rage will go away and be incorporated into that.


Hey that brings up a good question.... I currently have a 10/4/2 Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger... I'm definitely going to Barbarian 12, and probably Barbarian 14, but I've been thinking about maybe 6 levels of fighter instead (12/6/2).

It's a tough choice, Crit Range II at level 14 barbarian is probably too good to give up...

But what if they move the crit range enhancements into the Barbarian Prestige classes? What if we get Crit Range I at 12 and Crit Range II at 18?

If I go to Barbarian 14 JUST for Crit Range II, and they move it higher, I'm going to be ****ed... Same with all those people who have 6 levels of ranger now...

I love what they are doing... but before we open up to 20, let's have everything mapped out so us players can make good decisions.

[Aesop]

Its +3 to all skills etc Aesop

3 extra uses per rest of all action boosts (I will assume haste boost as well) So 8 haste boosts and 8 Power surges per rest.

+1 to crit range

Oh and I saw my error from before.

So if its +2 damage and +4 seeker that means +2 damage per hit and +6 pre multiplier per crit... its an extra enhancement driven bloodstone with +10% more critty goodness.

Assuming power surge works like showtime even if its only 20 sec... thats another +4 damage on top... which will be on a seperate timer from haste boost. So your talking +10 pre crit damage with 30% alacrity boost... thats a disgusting figure. And guarantee you will only miss on a 1 and never fail to confirm a crit. Looks to put a guy with an ubuffed 32 str into the 160+ range for base crit damage, add in bard buffs rages... ya... itll be nasty.

I'd include the boost to Haste Boost except that it is an additional cost for it... It is good to remember that it is an option though.

I just hope there is something for the S&B guys that is not wrapped up in a PrE or else they will have fixed nothing at all and merely pushed the damage numbers further out of whack where S&B is concerned.


Aesop

[bobbryan2]

I'd include the boost to Haste Boost except that it is an additional cost for it... It is good to remember that it is an option though.

I just hope there is something for the S&B guys that is not wrapped up in a PrE or else they will have fixed nothing at all and merely pushed the damage numbers further out of whack where S&B is concerned.


Aesop

I'm sure S&B will like the Defender prestige class more than Kensai anyway.

My main complaint is that Kensai requires Attack boost, which is worse than haste boost by a billion, then upgrades Attack boost... but still Haste boost does much much more damage.

Seems a little silly.

[The_Phenx]

I'd include the boost to Haste Boost except that it is an additional cost for it... It is good to remember that it is an option though.

I just hope there is something for the S&B guys that is not wrapped up in a PrE or else they will have fixed nothing at all and merely pushed the damage numbers further out of whack where S&B is concerned.


Aesop

I will assume some intimi guys will take this... I would also imagine we will be seeing some sort of shield efects going into place. We will have to wait and see what Eladrin says in the coming days.

[The_Phenx]

I'm sure S&B will like the Defender prestige class more than Kensai anyway.

My main complaint is that Kensai requires Attack boost, which is worse than haste boost by a billion, then upgrades Attack boost... but still Haste boost does much much more damage.

Seems a little silly.


The power surge effect directly pulls from attack boost.. so even tho you wont be using it... think of it as 8 clicks of +8 str per rest. Which will work independant of haste boost. And at lvl 20 you should be able to have both lines full up wihtout much of a problem.

And based on other enhancement lines it looks to be usable at the same time with attack boost.

The funny part is I probably will never hotbar attack boost :)

Have to see what Eladrin says first tho.

[Lithic]

I'm sure S&B will like the Defender prestige class more than Kensai anyway.

My main complaint is that Kensai requires Attack boost, which is worse than haste boost by a billion, then upgrades Attack boost... but still Haste boost does much much more damage.

Seems a little silly.

All the PrC's have "useless" enhancements and/or feat prereqs. Why would Kensai be any different? Its a way to balance their cost with their benefit, and personally I think the costs are pretty decent for the benefits in most cases.

Besides, nothing is preventing you from taking haste boost as well, and I think it may benefit from the increased number of boosts from the kensai ability.

[Aesop]

I'm sure S&B will like the Defender prestige class more than Kensai anyway.

My main complaint is that Kensai requires Attack boost, which is worse than haste boost by a billion, then upgrades Attack boost... but still Haste boost does much much more damage.

Seems a little silly.

I'm sure they will too... but.

The problem for S&B is they can't get the highest AC they can't get good Damage Mitigation unless they stop doing damage at all and over all do too much LESS damage than any of the other styles. so if they can't mitigate damage and they can do damage what is there function. In order to catch up on damage they'd have to take this or the equivilent PrE. But if they do that they can't take the Defensive PrE... so its a case of Damned if ya do Damned if ya don't .

Understand I'm not totally against this but... I dunno if its the best it can be.

also given the tier two abililty I don't mind the Attack Boost requirement as much. Once you have that you'll use it to fuel the Power Surge ability anyway and then you won't have to expend something that is actually useful for you fighter... like Haste Boost.

Aesop

[Aesop]

I will assume some intimi guys will take this... I would also imagine we will be seeing some sort of shield efects going into place. We will have to wait and see what Eladrin says in the coming days.

Yeh I imagine the Defender PrE will be Shield oriented and PDK will require Haste Boost ... though I kinda hope not.

Again I'm not totally against it but I'm just not as enamored of this as I was when I saw HotD

Aesop


off for the weekend good luck all

[bobbryan2]

also given the tier two abililty I don't mind the Attack Boost requirement as much. Once you have that you'll use it to fuel the Power Surge ability anyway and then you won't have to expend something that is actually useful for you fighter... like Haste Boost.

Aesop


But when the Power surge ability is less powerful than the haste boost that anyone can get....

[Noctus]

I've dropped a few bits of information previously on some of the various Prestige Enhancements currently scheduled for Module 9 in various threads. Each week, I'll be posting one of these or a capstone enhancement to let you see what I'm working on. As usual, they're all still subject to change in playtest, and I ask that people not freak out too much about being "nerfed" or "buffed" if they do, or I'll have to stop since The Cube won't let me post them anymore. :)

Let's start with the kensai.




Ohhhh yaaa! Finally, some stuff to play with, the info-drought has ended.
At least something to anticipate for the next Mod, instead of waiting for the big, black unknown!

Thanks, Eladrin.

[Bronko]

It looks like you've put lots of thought and work into this Eladrin. I'd like to just say thanks for that and for giving us some communication on thing to come.

Keep up the good work.

[kyebosh]

Question:
Will the increased chance of Special Effect on Glancing Blows include a chance of a Rogues Sneak Attack?

[hu-flung-pu]

Am I the only one trying to figure out the balance for splashing two Monk levels on my Fighter? Or even necesitate the need for Ki generation?

[Cold_Stele]

Thanks for the info and all your work Eladrin.

What do you guys think - will the +1 critical threat range with your signature weapon from Kensai III double with the Improved Crit feat?

In other words will khopeshes crit on 15-20 or 16-20?

[Junts]

Am I the only one trying to figure out the balance for splashing two Monk levels on my Fighter? Or even necesitate the need for Ki generation?

the big downside is that ki is pretty useless without 3 monk to get the light/dark, all the good uses for ki involve light: light light light, water light water, fire light fire, etc.

[Mockduck]

For me the big part of this is the possible advantage to two handed fighting. I love the idea of vorpaling a group of monsters with one fell "20"! Overall, my fighter is pretty well set to use this I think. I like it!

[hu-flung-pu]

the big downside is that ki is pretty useless without 3 monk to get the light/dark, all the good uses for ki involve light: light light light, water light water, fire light fire, etc.

Monk is useless for the kensai. Sure it makes for cool flavor.

But you can't generate Ki uncentered, and even if you have the Ki, can't use it, when you're uncentered. You take too big of a hit to damage potential even dabbling in 6 fighter levels as a monk, and you basically get an extra couple of feats by splashing 2 levels of monk.

So unless things are being changed, monk is pointless to have on a Kensai.

[Cold_Stele]

So unless things are being changed, monk is pointless to have on a Kensai.

It's flavor I guess - let's face it if you were so into min/maxing you wouldn't have either a Ftr or a Monk.

Personally, I'm very happy.

Nice enough to be competitive without being broken.

This PrE may not do much for S&B but are we really surprised by that? They'll get their love with Defender and/or PDK.

Once again thanks Eladrin.

[Eladrin]

Monk is useless for the kensai. Sure it makes for cool flavor.

But you can't generate Ki uncentered, and even if you have the Ki, can't use it, when you're uncentered. You take too big of a hit to damage potential even dabbling in 6 fighter levels as a monk, and you basically get an extra couple of feats by splashing 2 levels of monk.

So unless things are being changed, monk is pointless to have on a Kensai.
I'm sure someone will surprise me with some deviant Monk/Kensai/Thief-Acrobat. ;)


will the +1 critical threat range with your signature weapon from Kensai III double with the Improved Crit feat?
It should be added after doubling.


Will the increased chance of Special Effect on Glancing Blows include a chance of a Rogues Sneak Attack?
"Special effects" refers to things like "flaming", "vorpal", and the like.

I'll make sure that Tempest and Frenzied Berserker are early on the list of previews to take care of concerns that are related to them.

[binnsr]

I'm sure someone will surprise me with some deviant Monk/Kensai/Thief-Acrobat. ;)

Actually, I was thinking more on the lines of 12Ftr/6Rgr/2Mnk Kensai II/Tempest I/Wind Stance Kama-wielding Halfling Fool.

[Nyvn]

It's no blow you away Damage but it looks like a good boost. The Cost is kinda high. Since the 8 STR draws from the attack boost I'm rather glad it doesn't need haste boost as a pre req. Trade in the useless attack boost for 8 str? Sign me up. Thanks a ton for letting us know whats coming!

[Cold_Stele]

Thanks once again for the response Eladrin.

I guess the last big question is - Kensai Power Surge - 20 seconds or 60?

[Tanka]

Frenzied Berserker
:eek:

Also; I'm only slightly upset I won't be able to get Kensai 3 on Tanka. Oh darn, whatever shall I do with 7 clicks of +8 Strength? :D

[binnsr]

:eek:

Also; I'm only slightly upset I won't be able to get Kensai 3 on Tanka. Oh darn, whatever shall I do with 7 clicks of +8 Strength? :D

I'm with you. Might just take another 2 levels of Barbie on my 12ftr/4barb and become a Frenzied Kensai :)

[bobbryan2]

I'm sure someone will surprise me with some deviant Monk/Kensai/Thief-Acrobat. ;)


Not really a complaint, more of an observation.. but these kinds of splashes are just not going to be common because it requires 18 ranks of a given class. It kinda kills deep splashing.

[Hasteclicky]

Wasn't there something in the compendium regarding Ki focus weapon feats? Not much of a description there but if a feat would allow a monk/fighter splash to remain centered and generate ki wielding kopeshes....

[ahpook]

But when the Power surge ability is less powerful than the haste boost that anyone can get....

but you can take both. And use both at the same time getting 30% more attacks with +8 str. If the pre-req was haste boost and you had to burn a haste boost to surge wouldn't that be much much worse?

[QuantumFX]

I've got other plans for Human Versatility in a future mod, don't worry about that.

Like? :p Currently HV is pretty nice other than you get too much redundancy thanks to PrE requirements. (Feel free to start another thread on this.)


I'll make sure that Tempest and Frenzied Berserker are early on the list of previews to take care of concerns that are related to them.

To paraphrase Jim Carrey's character from Dumb and Dumber: Code… FASTER!

[BattleCircle]

I'll make sure that Tempest and Frenzied Berserker are early on the list of previews to take care of concerns that are related to them.

Frenzied Berserker???? :D

OH I think I'm gonna have nerdgasm

[Deathseeker]

Absolutely love Kensai now that you've beefed up the damage on tier II and III!

Yeah, yeah, there could be other ranger/barb builds that max out dps more, but if the game were all about the top DPS build that's all anyone would run. This gives us all kinds of multiclassing options using fighter, and also brings the level 18+ fighter into the realm of playable.

Please, please...give us a hint as to the extent of level 20 enhancements. I want to roll my new fighter now so I can start getting him ready for Kensai...BUT I DONT KNO WHETHER TO DIP 2 LEVELS OF SOMETHING ELSE OR NOT! Come on, throw us one more bone!

[muffinlad]

Does this mean we are getting rid of these boosts and getting a different form of versatility?

If we could just go back to a limited form of the original, say +1 to all skills at levels 1-8, +2 to all skills level 9 though 16, and +3 to all skills at level 17, I would be fine. Not as powerful as it used to be, but still useful for some builds.

muffinskiller

[Gum]

man, this is really good news. Looking forward to it.

[Chaos000]

if you think about it they're also planning on including the feat to allow a monk to use his monk abilities (i.e. stay focused) with a longsword. Kensai Fighter splash 2 monk = evasive fighter via longsword

[Inspire]

Great ideas and a good concept behind Kenasi, was wondering how it would turn out!

First of all Dwarven & Warforged tactiticians rejoice! Now things will stop saving *I hope* against your fully spec'd out Improved Trip/Imporved Sunder/Stunning Blow/*Stunning Fist(?) :D it seems a 41+ Dc dosent cut it against these giants in M8, heh.

Curious though, will Monks Stunning Fist/Unbalancing Strike/Eagles Talon work with the +1/+2 Dc to your combat feats? and for that matter will wieghted be working with Stunning Fist by then if that is intended or not... gears are spinning, thanks for the info. El, keep up the good work.





Ps; for those complaining about Attack Boost vs. Haste Boost, there is nothing preventing you from taking both :D, and yes if you want the extra speed its gonna cost ya.

[bobbryan2]

but you can take both. And use both at the same time getting 30% more attacks with +8 str. If the pre-req was haste boost and you had to burn a haste boost to surge wouldn't that be much much worse?

But you can't use both... so the rest of this doesn't make sense. When you activate one action boost, it darkens every other one for 30 seconds.

[Aerendil]

Actually, I was thinking more on the lines of 12Ftr/6Rgr/2Mnk Kensai II/Tempest I/Wind Stance Kama-wielding Halfling Fool.

Was thinking Halfling 12 Fighter (Kensai II) / 8 Monk myself, using handwraps.

TWF line for extra hooks.
Str bonus to both hands + kensai damage bonuses + power surge + power attack + greater weapon specialization + fighter STR enhancements + bardsong if in a group = who needs crits when you do +30ish damage per fist? :p
Wind stance + fighter haste for offense (haste), mountain stance for tanking (+con, DR).
Combine monk AC with fighter intimidation.
Truckload of feats to play with.
Great saves.
Kensai adds to Concentration and Diplomacy, both of which are Monk skills. The boosts to combat feat DCs aren't bad either (stunning fist).
Evasion (though, sadly, 1 level short of Improved Evasion)
Slowfall, wholeness of body, immunity to disease.
Halfling dragonmarks.
Maxed or near-max balance, spot, tumble, intimidate, jump and swim.

[manfredshw]

Any words on tempest pls?

[Shima-ra]

Good job on this, this is really interesting

[Inspire]

Any words on tempest pls?

Chill.

[ArkoHighStar]

Any words on tempest pls?

please read his post, he is doing one of these a week, and he said that he would put tempest early

[Balkas]

But you can't use both... so the rest of this doesn't make sense. When you activate one action boost, it darkens every other one for 30 seconds.

I believe that the "Showtime" boost that you get from Way of the Thief Acrobat is on a separate timer than the rest of the boosts, even though it uses up a haste boost.

We're *assuming* that this is the same way.

[Inspire]

I believe that the "Showtime" boost that you get from Way of the Thief Acrobat is on a separate timer than the rest of the boosts, even though it uses up a haste boost.

We're *assuming* that this is the same way.

Alot of the newer boosts act the same way, Its Showtime/Divine Might/Divine Righteousness/Monk Buffs Ie; Walk of the Sun all of which you can use with other boosts of the same pool.

For example;

Turn Undead = Divine Might & Divine Righteousness both of which you can use at the same time(turn aswell).
Rogue haste boost II(+) = Its Showtime which you can use together.

Id bet on a 1 minute durration stackable with other alike buffs.

[bobbryan2]

Alot of the newer boosts act the same way, Its Showtime/Divine Might/Divine Righteousness/Monk Buffs Ie; Walk of the Sun all of which you can use with other boosts of the same pool.

For example;

Turn Undead = Divine Might & Divine Righteousness both of which you can use at the same time(turn aswell).
Rogue haste boost II(+) = Its Showtime which you can use together.

Id bet on a 1 minute durration stackable with other alike buffs.

If you could use both... it would be pretty cool... At that point, it simply becomes really really expensive... but at least it would be cool.

31 AP for kensai, and then another 10 AP for Haste boost... that's more than half the AP already spent.

[Inspire]

If you could use both... it would be pretty cool... At that point, it simply becomes really really expensive... but at least it would be cool.

31 AP for kensai, and then another 10 AP for Haste boost... that's more than half the AP already spent.

Taking haste boost all the way to tier IV is a waste IMO but I guess you could spend your ap like that if you really wanted to. Just remember that you will have 80 action points to use however you see fit at level 20.

[Borror0]

Just remember that you will have 80 action points to use however you see fit at level 20.
Still, 41 APs is over half of your total.

But yeah, going all the way isn't worth the cost but Power surge might justify it.

[bobbryan2]

Taking haste boost all the way to tier IV is a waste IMO but I guess you could spend your ap like that if you really wanted to. Just remember that you will have 80 action points to use however you see fit at level 20.

Probably not. But that's still a ton of AP.

[Inspire]

Still, 41 APs is over half of your total.

:rolleyes::D


But yeah, going all the way isn't worth the cost the Power surge might justify it.

Some will take it all the way... this isnt the PrE line that the Ac builds will take, all those action points unspent into armour mastery and tower shield mastery can be spent here along with fighter combat Dc's which would work well with Kenasi.

[Borror0]

Some will take it all the way...
I know, but this is an extremely linear design.

[Desteria]

:rolleyes::D



Some will take it all the way... this isnt the PrE line that the Ac builds will take, all those action points unspent into armour mastery and tower shield mastery can be spent here along with fighter combat Dc's which would work well with Kenasi.

Whats killing me is my fighter, (12ftr3pal1rgr[stpid ddo not getting str to bows with no ranegrs rule breaking hacks]) is currently a THF offensive build that CAN go S&B with CE and great AC, I have bene buying both ofensive and defensive AP's i need to fit the armor etc masters and the extra stuf fin hehe i'm trying to figure out how to get it all now and it;s makign my head hurt.....

:)

[MysticRhythms]

I think a warforged Tactics build can use this Prestige Enhancement to great effect. Those 31 AP's synergize very well with the idea. If you have to, yo ucan sacrifice a little bit of Fighter Intimidate to come up with the AP's you get for Kensei and basically get your Intimidate bonus bak.

This prestige would be incredibly strong if Fighter's Critical Accuracy worked like Seeker already does. Those little stacks of damage for each tier combined with Power Surge as well as hte new fighter weapon mastery enhancements (I don't see why you wouldn't take them since you already qualify for them by being a Kensei and they even fit into the roleplaying aspect of the PrC as well).

This might actually be the class that makes the Greatsword a decent weapon choice. The two-handed fighting bonuses are better than the 1-handed ones the prestige gives.

All of thsoe attack bonuses aren't totally useless either. It means you can turn power attack on fully for a warforged and still hit consistently with your first iterative. And power attack scales very nicely for two-handed weapons for even more synergy and of course you can turn this warforged tactics fighter into a cleaving machine. With Cleave, Great Cleave and the kensei ability to get weapon effects on glancing blows as well as strong Intimidate, you could really be a crowd controller AND damage dealer.

And you even get better saving throws?

I'm actually liking this a LOT for Warforged tactical fighters.

Now the only problem is where to get the AP's ... likely you will have to back off Toughness some.

This thing has a lot of offensive capability, actually.

[Xyfiel]

I'm sure someone will surprise me with some deviant Monk/Kensai/Thief-Acrobat. ;)

Already planned out 3 months ago and made a month ago.
I will lay out the basics:

Human Rogue12/monk2/Fighter6(currently level 8 going 10/2/4)

Imp Feint, dodge, mobility, spring attack, ce, whirlwind, toughness, imp crit bludgeoning, power attack, cleave, great cleave, stunning blow, imp trip, sf umd

Of course this now changes, removing umd and one other for focus and specialization

Approximate stats at 20
14str=32
14dex=28
14con=24
14int=22
14wis=22
10cha=18

AC:
10+5icy+4def+8bracers+9dex+6wis+1monk+1haste+4dodg e+4nat(madstone boots)+4shield=56 normal
+4insight
+5ce
65 defensive mode
+6iucd+5hv
76 self boosted
+12 full raid buffed
88

400 hps, good saves, crippling strike, immunity to knockdown, evasion, high bluff/intimidate, full trapsmith

Damage:
1d6+1w/e staff
10power attack
15strength
4damage(fighter)
6d6sneak
12sneak enhancement
8backstab item
+8crit damage Kensai
+12crit damage bloodstone
{hit}1d6+50+6d6sneak
{crit}1d6x2+120+6d6sneak

Speed:
20% acrobat II
2.5% wind stance
25% haste
20% Rogue haste boost II
1*.8*.975*.75*.8
58.5%(41.5% increase)
46.8%(53.2% increase boosted)


All I had to do was wait for the specifics on the fighter prc's to see which worked with the build, and Kensai evidently is the prc for it.

[dragnmoon]

I've dropped a few bits of information previously on some of the various Prestige Enhancements currently scheduled for Module 9 in various threads. Each week, I'll be posting one of these or a capstone enhancement to let you see what I'm working on. As usual, they're all still subject to change in playtest, and I ask that people not freak out too much about being "nerfed" or "buffed" if they do, or I'll have to stop since The Cube won't let me post them anymore. :)



Eladrin, Thank you for this!!... It is nice to see a little bit of the WDA back... The WDA being cancelled is a main reason why I canceled my Subscription.. If you guys start doing more stuff like thise I may find the interest of coming back..

Once again Thanks!

[honkuimushi]

Monk is useless for the kensai. Sure it makes for cool flavor.

But you can't generate Ki uncentered, and even if you have the Ki, can't use it, when you're uncentered. You take too big of a hit to damage potential even dabbling in 6 fighter levels as a monk, and you basically get an extra couple of feats by splashing 2 levels of monk.

So unless things are being changed, monk is pointless to have on a Kensai.

I wouldn't mind the addition of a few multiclass focused features for Fighter/Monks. The biggest downsides are the level breaks. You need 18 levels of Fighter for the best benefits of Kensai, but you start seeing the real benefits of the monk at level 3. Maybe allow Kensais to take some monk enhancements by allowing then to add maybe half their Fighter level to their Monk level to qualify?

The next big issue would be the broblem of being uncentered when using non-Monk weapons. Whirling SteelSstrike is one way around this. Allowing all weapons you use to be considered Ki weapons is another. Giving the Kensai to add the Ki weapon ability to bound and attuned weapons would also work.

The last issue is armor making you uncentered. This could be solved the same way as weapons. But the armor bonuses might be a sticking point. The Argent Fist from Faiths of Ebberon allow the Monk based wisdom and level based bonuses work in armor. Allowing just one might spark less resistance and keep it from overshadowing the main benefits of the PrE. So you can add your wisdom bonus to your AC even while armored, or allow the Monk level based armor bonus to work in armor as well. Maybe allow Fighter levels to be counted as well. The second is probably a better solution since goes from 0 to +4 and increases slowly instead of giving you a large bonus all at once. I don't think having it work in Heavy of Medium armor will be much of an issue since most people would want to keep Evasion.


If you consider making this a Monk PrE as well it might be worth playing around with this stuff.

Any more information planned on the glancing blow additions? I'd kind of like to see a straight percentage on damage effects-- something like 25%/ 50%/ 75% of damge all the time, but other effects like stat damage and vorpal will need a chance to happen and that might be harder to balance.

Finally, I'd like to say thank you for the information and the plan to introduce some of this stuff on a regular basis. Having regular information releases makes the forums a lot more fun.

[Griphon]

I am on board with Aesop, or at least I was until I heard the mention of the Frenzied Beserker PrE coming 'soon'. Now I'm hopeful that they'll be rolling the 'Critical Rage' Enhancement lines into a PrE that will be both more costly in AP and Feats. I've never been a fan of Critical Rage, even playing a Barbarian, as I think it broke too many game mechanics and caused tons of issues. If they keep it, here's to hoping they cut it back to just one Crit Range and at the 14th level. (I don't really want to totally trash everybody's fun who created a 14lvl bard mix for the Crit Rage. Just to trim it back to balance it.)

So I'll now air my concerns with the Kensai PrE as it is.. And try to keep comparisons of current stuff that may (and hopefully) will be changed soon.

My main problem? Why does this Enhancement line Favor one weapon style over the other? As it stands it favors Ranged Kensai and 2 Hander Kensai over a Sword/Board or Two weapon Kensia! It's the increased benefits to one type of Weapon and the 'chance of including Special Effects' into glancing blows that really got a 'HUH' out of me.

Ranged Kensia automatically have this if they select the feat 'Precise Shot' and manage to line up more than one target. I'm not too upset about this as the RoF of a Range unit is already reduced... But RoF STILL needs increased.

2 Hander Kensia automatically get Glancing Blows. And yes they have a feat line to increase their damage somewhat.. I've no issue with those...

But why give -more- benefits of a PrE to a certain type of Weapon Wielder to versus somebody who's paid the -exact- same costs? Sorry man, but that just doesn't make much sense to me. Why pad an enhancement line to favor one type of Weapon Wielder? Do we really want to favor one type so that there will be the tendency to make 'cookie cutter' 2 Handed Fighting Kensia? Do we really decrease the value of a 'typical Sword and Boarder' because they can't have really high AC, and can't throw out higher DPS even when taking all Feats/Enhancements available for them to do so?

The base benefits for the Enhancement line should be the same no matter what style of weapon used. The same +1's or +2's across the board.... The benefit would then come from the type of weapon used. A 2Hander would still gain a benefit from higher strength when the +8 Strength was added in the base rule of Strength damage for 2Hander weapons having half added to it again. (As well as a typically higher Crit Multiplier.)

Summary: Balance the Kensai PrE so that it's giving the same benefits to all Kensia no matter what.

Solutions:
1) Manditory! Remove the extra +'s when using a Two Handed weapon. Make it a flat value for all weapon types.

Pick one of the following:

2) Totally remove the 'additional chance to add Special effects' to Glancing Blow damage from 2 Handed weapons. Besides there are already two feats that allow something simliar to this: Cleave and Improved Cleave. (Power Cleave? Whats the second Cleave's name?!)

3) Allow 1 handed weapon wielding Kensia to make 'Glancing Blows' as well and keep the 'chance to add Special Effects' damage. A Feat should probably be required for this. This increases the S/B DPS while costing a feat (something most S/B fighters would gladly give to gain.)

EDIT: 4) Create 2 classifications of Kensia. Single Hand Weapon, and 2Hander. Lower the cost of the 1 Weapon or add an extra benefit. If the Devs are paranoid about some Uber-Kensia-Tempest build they could then create another for 2 weapon fighting.

[Griphon]

Ack!

And so I don't sound like an ingrate...

THANK YOU!!!!

It was great to get the information on the enhancement line. The WDA being revoked was a big blow to the Forumites. Throwing us information like this keeps us interested in the things coming down the pipe from the Devs.

[Aspenor]

Asp <3 Eladrin

Carry on.

[Desteria]

.

ACK THF NEEDS HELP bady....

the one handed weaposn alreayd get the bonus twice they will be TWF's takign kensi ....

Personaly i'd liek to see buy the tiem kensi hit tier 2 the effects on glancing blows be 100% not just an increrased chance.

If you reduce the effect it ha on THF frankly it will not be worth the cost it;s just barly maby worht it now, and imo still does not compare to ranger or barb current enchments, might just be on parwith current pally spell/AP's but not what you add pally PRC's on top of that though HOW a palyl will ever aford a PRC on top of the other AP's needed to try and get on par is beyond me.

If you buff the efect on one heand users they you over power TWFer even more.


As to S&B this is NOT the PRC targeting S&B people, that will be the D-defender I'm sure and possible the other one as well, but you can still take kensi as a S7B fro a little more damage, but frankly if you are goign S&B for AC *** else would you!!! you will prolly want to go defender for more ac.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Solutions:
1) Manditory! Remove the extra +'s when using a Two Handed weapon. Make it a flat value for all weapon types.

Already Dev stated this PrC would be the favourite of THF specialists. Wait to see the other PrC's before claiming this is too powerful for 1 type of attacker

Pick one of the following:

2) Totally remove the 'additional chance to add Special effects' to Glancing Blow damage from 2 Handed weapons. Besides there are already two feats that allow something simliar to this: Cleave and Improved Cleave. (Power Cleave? Whats the second Cleave's name?!)

3) Allow 1 handed weapon wielding Kensia to make 'Glancing Blows' as well and keep the 'chance to add Special Effects' damage. A Feat should probably be required for this. This increases the S/B DPS while costing a feat (something most S/B fighters would gladly give to gain.)

You can not give 1 handers glancing blows. Using a 1 hand weapon is the only way you can 'turn off' glancing blows. The ability to turn off glancing blows is essential in some quests.


Notes in red

[Griphon]

ACK THF NEEDS HELP bady.... As compared to what? Two weapon fighting Tempest Dwarves wielding Dwarven Axes? Two Weapon Fighting Elf Tempests using w W/P rapiers? As has been mentioned it looks like Tempest might be changed slightly, so its not going to do any good to compare those.
Lets keep it to a Pure Fighter-talk for reference.. A 2Handed Fighter vs a S&B (or Single weapon) fighter? The 2Hander will put out more DPS as it is, but have less to about 9AC points less. With the fact that AC is currently 'broke' and that unless you have ultimate HIGH AC it doesn't matter much.. then 2Handers are just as good or better than S&B fighters....

2H vs 2W? Same AC.. 2H = Higher DPS per Swing... 2W = more swings... 2Handers have the DSP win. 2W have the win when using stat kill or instant kills

the one handed weaposn alreayd get the bonus twice they will be TWF's takign kensi .... You can not assume that anybody who takes this PrE and uses one handed weapons are going to be 2Weap fighters. The intention is to 'master' one weapon type/style and increase damage and skill with that weapon. Still no reason to pad the 2handers for same cost of a one handed weapon user.

Personaly i'd liek to see buy the tiem kensi hit tier 2 the effects on glancing blows be 100% not just an increrased chance. I'm guessing it'll be max of 50%.

If you reduce the effect it ha on THF frankly it will not be worth the cost it;s just barly maby worht it now, and imo still does not compare to ranger or barb current enchments, might just be on parwith current pally spell/AP's but not what you add pally PRC's on top of that though HOW a palyl will ever aford a PRC on top of the other AP's needed to try and get on par is beyond me. I did say make it even across the board on Weapon style and Type. They could increase or decrease the damage either way as long as it evened it out on a cost basis. I'll edit my orginal post and throw in the option of lowering the cost for the 1handers.

If you buff the efect on one heand users they you over power TWFer even more.Not if they stay the same and raise the one hander benefits up to the 2hander ones. I also think you're seeing panic of TWFers that are going to dip into Fighter....I doubt that'll be the case with the Tempest line specifically for them. Even if they do 'dip' into fighter for this PrE I doubt the two types will be that beneficial since they're changing Tempest as it is.


As to S&B this is NOT the PRC targeting S&B people, that will be the D-defender I'm sure and possible the other one as well, but you can still take kensi as a S7B fro a little more damage, but frankly if you are goign S&B for AC *** else would you!!! you will prolly want to go defender for more ac.
And um.. Who said this wasn't 'targetting' S&B? Not all fighters who use S&B are their for the max AC benefit.. (if they were they'd be Tempests in robes.) This class PrE is should be about increasing the effectiveness of Fighters who wish to use a single type of weapon over all others... Be the 1 handed weapons, Two Handed Weapons.. Or Two Weapon Fighters..
I've yet to see the Defender Class, but a bit of speculation: It'll increase AC. Duh.. And be great for those who've elected to go S&B who want the AC from it.


Replies in RED.

[Borror0]

Summary: Balance the Kensai PrE so that it's giving the same benefits to all Kensia no matter what.
The problem is that currently, two-handed fighters are pretty lame compared to two-weapon fighters. Making of these benefits flat bonuses benefit two-weapon fighters more than two-handed fighters. That is mostly likely why Eladrin has decided to make it this way and it's not a bad idea at all.

Personally, I would take the glancing blow part off and make it universal to all characters wielding a two-handed weapons. Maybe moving the bonuses from Kensai to some of the two-handed fighting feats could be a way to do it. But, no matter how Eladrin manages the glancing blow part, Kensai would favor two-weapon fighters over two-handed fighters unless Eladrin varies the numbers from one fighting style to the other.

[Griphon]

Already Dev stated this PrC would be the favourite of THF specialists. Wait to see the other PrC's before claiming this is too powerful for 1 type of attacker Why should a PrE that isn't SPECIFICALLY 2Handed fighters have more benefits for them at the same cost compared to somebody who wants to specialize in a single weapon that is a one hander? Simple Answer: It shouldn't!

You can't assume everybody using a Sword and Board concept is out for MAX AC. (As we all know if they were, they'd be using a Tempest Ranger in Robes and AC bracers.) The fighter class as a whole has too many variations to be able to claim that nobody wants to have a 'decent' AC, but specialize in one type of weapon.

From my understanding, this isn't the 'Fighter 2Hander' PrE, but the 'Fighter Weapon Specialist' PrE. As such it should benefit all fighters the same, no matter the fighter's style.


You can not give 1 handers glancing blows. Using a 1 hand weapon is the only way you can 'turn off' glancing blows. The ability to turn off glancing blows is essential in some quests.
I admit this is a good point. Giving them glancing blows would indeed screw up 'Sleep Dust' type quests. It could be possible to make it a Stance for the single handed types. But then it'd be a choice of.. Do I use 'Power attack' for max damage to the main target or do I use 'Kensia Glancing blow' for max damage to all the mobs around me? ... I actually like that idea.


Replies in Red.

[Borror0]

As compared to what? Two weapon fighting Tempest Dwarves wielding Dwarven Axes? Two Weapon Fighting Elf Tempests using w W/P rapiers?
To any Str-based two-weapon fighting character and that is strictly from a DPS standpoint.

For as long as monk splash is un-nerfed, they will also have crazily high AC. However, let's consider that as something they will address.

Who said this wasn't 'targetting' S&B? Not all fighters who use S&B are their for the max AC benefit..
Heh, well it is their decision to play a sub-par build.

That kind of build is beyond salvation. Any attempt at making them better is a waste of time.

[Griphon]

The problem is that currently, two-handed fighters are pretty lame compared to two-weapon fighters. Making of these benefits flat bonuses benefit two-weapon fighters more than two-handed fighters. That is mostly likely why Eladrin has decided to make it this way and it's not a bad idea at all. Yes. It would benefit the TWFers. (No I'm not one!) It's not a bad idea? But is fair to have a PrE that costs the same to everybody to have an inherit benefit to just one style? Perhaps they should broaded the Kensia class into the 3 types.. Two Weapon Kensia, 2 Hander Kensia and S&B Kensia. (I've edited my orginal post to include these options.)

Personally, I would take the glancing blow part off and make it universal to all characters wielding a two-handed weapons. Maybe moving the bonuses from Kensai to some of the two-handed fighting feats could be a way to do it. But, no matter how Eladrin manages the glancing blow part, Kensai would favor two-weapon fighters over two-handed fighters unless Eladrin varies the numbers from one fighting style to the other.

Replies in Red

[Desteria]

Replies in RED.
As compared to what? Two weapon fighting Tempest Dwarves wielding Dwarven Axes? Two Weapon Fighting Elf Tempests using w W/P rapiers? As has been mentioned it looks like Tempest might be changed slightly, so its not going to do any good to compare those.


when a 8 startign str tempest monk with KAMAS out DPSs a max STR dwarf Fighter with THF feats and a great axe, and buy a decent margin some thing is seriusly wrong that is the current state of THF, and thats JUST DPS on trash mobs that are better killed but vorp or wounding TWF is almost twice as effective...

[Griphon]

To any Str-based two-weapon fighting character and that is strictly from a DPS standpoint.

For as long as monk splash is un-nerfed, they will also have crazily high AC. However, let's consider that as something they will address.

Heh, well it is their decision to play a sub-par build.

That kind of build is beyond salvation. Any attempt at making them better is a waste of time.

Do you always think that Dev's should program and craft the game with the Non-typical Power Gamer in mind? You know thats never going to be possible. Gamers will always find a loophole or way to get around to doing something slightly better than the average Joe.

The concept of a Sub-Par build that is beyond salvation because they use a single weapon and shield is just plan crazy-talk, since that seems to be the 'Average Joe' build who isn't a power gamer. Seems most profitable to the game to design towards the 'Average Joe' and less toward Power Gamers. If you drive the Average Joes away because they're aren't enjoying the game... I don't believe the Power Gamer's subscriptions will be enough to keep the game afloat..

[arcsonist]

Where is my Katana?

[Borror0]

From my understanding, this isn't the 'Fighter 2Hander' PrE, but the 'Fighter Weapon Specialist' PrE. As such it should benefit all fighters the same, no matter the fighter's style.
Two-weapon fighting character benefit more from:

+2 bonus to damage and to-hit
+3 bonus to Combat Feat DC's
+4 to confirm criticals and critical damage
Power Surge
+1 critical threat range

Eladrin's modification just bring a bit more fairness to the PrE between THF and TWF.

[Desteria]

Replies in RED.
2H vs 2W? Same AC.. 2H = Higher DPS per Swing... 2W = more swings... 2Handers have the DSP win. 2W have the win when using stat kill or instant kills



Your joiking RIGHT.....

TWF DESTROYES THF on a fighter to fighter basis

ok lets look at it

PA: THF gets 10 per hit but TWF gets 5 per HAND 2 hits at once so thats ruffly the same.

STR: THF gets 1.5 str, THF gets 1.0 and 0.5 STR so thats ruffly = again

BARD song: THF gets it once, TWF gets it twice BIG win TWF

Weapon Spec/gtr weapon spec: THF gets 4 per hit, TWF gets 4 PER HAND so twice as much.

HOLY/Acid/force etc THF gets them once per attack, TWF getign them TWICE once per hand...

seeing a pattern here?

Sneat attack goggles etc same as above...


TWF DPS DESTROYS THF DPS fro any class that choses it, and is way better for stat/vorpal type efects....

Ultimatly balace should show them THF/TWF beign faily close in terms of DPS with THF edjing out TWF for non rangers, (Favored enimy would be the tippign toward TWF for them), but TWF winning in the none DPS effects catigories that woudl balance thouse 2 fightign styles, S&B i don;t know but they should have the best AC, with less damage etc.

[Desteria]

Replies in RED.And um.. Who said this wasn't 'targetting' S&B? Not all fighters who use S&B are their for the max AC benefit.. (if they were they'd be Tempests in robes.) This class PrE is should be about increasing the effectiveness of Fighters who wish to use a single type of weapon over all others... Be the 1 handed weapons, Two Handed Weapons.. Or Two Weapon Fighters..
I've yet to see the Defender Class, but a bit of speculation: It'll increase AC. Duh.. And be great for those who've elected to go S&B who want the AC from it.

Why do you use a sheild for any other reason then for AC, as a fighter, if your not goign for ac you pick up a 2hander.

[Griphon]

when a 8 startign str tempest monk with KAMAS out DPSs a max STR dwarf Fighter with THF feats and a great axe, and buy a decent margin some thing is seriusly wrong that is the current state of THF, and thats JUST DPS on trash mobs that are better killed but vorp or wounding TWF is almost twice as effective...

I should say I agree that 2H'ed Fighting is less effective than it should be with the whole glancing blow bit.

As to your specific examples DPS , I'd like to see some actual reference. Some statistical work? (Anybody actually have a reference to this on a post somewhere? I'm not a statistician.)

2WF with Stat damage and Vorpals is a no brainer.. more hits per second = more chances to vorpal. More hits per second = more stat damage. That is a flaw in the system that isn't exactly fixable. Nor should it be even attempted.

[Borror0]

The concept of a Sub-Par build that is beyond salvation because they use a single weapon and shield is just plan crazy-talk, since that seems to be the 'Average Joe' build who isn't a power gamer. Seems most profitable to the game to design towards the 'Average Joe' and less toward Power Gamers. If you drive the Average Joes away because they're aren't enjoying the game... I don't believe the Power Gamer's subscriptions will be enough to keep the game afloat..
That is NOT what I meant.

That is not a "that kind of build sucks, don't make it better" kind of comment. It is a rather, the concept of that kind of build is flawed given the very nature of the game. Any attempt improve that kind of build is a waste of time. The way game works, you got to kill faster if you are taking more damage. Thing is, if you want mid-AC and good DPS, you should have gone two-weapon fighting. Not S&B.

[Desteria]

The problem is that currently, two-handed fighters are pretty lame compared to two-weapon fighters. Making of these benefits flat bonuses benefit two-weapon fighters more than two-handed fighters. That is mostly likely why Eladrin has decided to make it this way and it's not a bad idea at all.

Personally, I would take the glancing blow part off and make it universal to all characters wielding a two-handed weapons. Maybe moving the bonuses from Kensai to some of the two-handed fighting feats could be a way to do it. But, no matter how Eladrin manages the glancing blow part, Kensai would favor two-weapon fighters over two-handed fighters unless Eladrin varies the numbers from one fighting style to the other.

EXACLY!!!!!!!

I love th idea of moving the glacign blow effetc to the feats... or maby partly to the feats so if you have the feats and the prc you get up to 100% of the time....

[Desteria]

To any Str-based two-weapon fighting character and that is strictly from a DPS standpoint.

For as long as monk splash is un-nerfed, they will also have crazily high AC. However, let's consider that as something they will address.

Any TWF build even they can be mostly dex based and still destroy STR based THF sad but true.



Heh, well it is their decision to play a sub-par build.

That kind of build is beyond salvation. Any attempt at making them better is a waste of time.

hehe true so true

[Desteria]

Replies in Red
Yes. It would benefit the TWFers. (No I'm not one!) It's not a bad idea? But is fair to have a PrE that costs the same to everybody to have an inherit benefit to just one style? Perhaps they should broaded the Kensia class into the 3 types.. Two Weapon Kensia, 2 Hander Kensia and S&B Kensia. (I've edited my orginal post to include these options.)


Well as it stands a TWF and a THF get the SAME benifit for the same cost the THF attacks half as much adn gets twice the bonus Perfectly balanced for teh 2 DPS firghting styles for fighters, kensi is a DPS prc or at least the the focus in PnP they took it from... so why should it give the same benifit to a defensive build a defensive build expects less dps, if they take a DPS prc then thats just odd...

[Desteria]

I should say I agree that 2H'ed Fighting is less effective than it should be with the whole glancing blow bit.

As to your specific examples DPS , I'd like to see some actual reference. Some statistical work? (Anybody actually have a reference to this on a post somewhere? I'm not a statistician.)

2WF with Stat damage and Vorpals is a no brainer.. more hits per second = more chances to vorpal. More hits per second = more stat damage. That is a flaw in the system that isn't exactly fixable. Nor should it be even attempted.

I don't have the stats on me but i HAVE figured them out quite a few tiems comparing my monk to my thf fighter, and hte monk destroyed him, I did it quite a few times becuase i had not expecte dthe monk to win i was hopeign he was CLOSE and was blown away when he was ahead.

[Borror0]

Desteria, ever heard of multiquote? :P

[Tanka]

Desteria, ever heard of multiquote? :P
What's that?


Desteria, ever heard of multiquote? :P
Huh?


Desteria, ever heard of multiquote? :P
Eh?


Desteria, ever heard of multiquote? :P
You speaking English here?

:p

[Griphon]

K..

Lemme circle the wagons and summarize some points... Or at least the points I'm concerned with the balance issue of of Kensia PrE

Kensia, as it sits now, gives more benefits to a certain type of fighting style(s), while costing the same for all fighting styles. (Fact)

(Opinion) This isnt 'fair' for those people who use a S&B fighter who specialize in a weapon type. If the goal of the PrE is to represent somebody who has maximized his skills with a specific weapon, it should have no difference in fighting styles.

Peeps have already complained that a flat line value will then TWFers and at 2HFers need help with the DPS issue too. (I do acknowledge that it would flat values always help those with more swings. No brainer. Just for reference that this has zero in common with my complaint about the fact that 2Hander fighting style is getting -MORE- for the same AP costs.)

TWFers and 2HFers aren't the only type of fighters in existance on DDO. It seems like the current method of 'one type with a bonus for a certain type' isn't going to work well. Sword and Board Style also exists. It's full of people who can't be an AC beast or DPS monster.


So to acknowledge the complaints I've suggested MULTIPLE lines of Kensia based on Fighting Type. 4 Types: A 2-Hander Kensia, a S&B Kensia, a 2WF Kensia and a Range Kensia.

I see a main Kensia line with a base line enhancement bonus line that only effects the main hand.. Then a secondary line on the Style. Here you can 'balance' the effects with the costs more effectively.

Kensia 2Hander - Grants the possible chance of Glancing Blow with special effects.
Kensia 2WF - Allowing the usage of the benefits with the second hand
Kensia S&B - Increased ability with the primary hand weapon.
Kensia Ranged - Increased ability with Ranged Weapon.

[Griphon]

Desteria, ever heard of multiquote? :P

.. I haven't..

I suxxor at this whole forum stuff.

[Tanka]

.. I haven't..

I suxxor at this whole forum stuff.
The button next to the Quote button is the Multiquote. Hit as many as you want, hit Post Reply, ta-da! Multiquote!

[Borror0]

.. I haven't..

I suxxor at this whole forum stuff.
You see this little white squares like this one (http://images.ddoforum.turbine.com/images/buttons/blue/multiquote_off.gif)? If you click them, it will select all the posts you want. Then, you can press Quote (http://images.ddoforum.turbine.com/images/buttons/blue/quote.gif) or Post Reply (http://images.ddoforum.turbine.com/images/buttons/blue/reply.gif) and they will all show up.

[Boldrin]

I'm almost glad I have a pure fighter now :)

[Borror0]

Just for reference that this has zero in common with my complaint about the fact that 2Hander fighting style is getting -MORE- for the same AP costs.)
If the THF benefits would changed to have the exact same numbers as TWF, would you then complain that TWF is getting more than THF?

Because that would be the case.

TWFers and 2HFers aren't the only type of fighters in existance on DDO.
You are talking to someone who has an intimitank as his main since Module 4.0. I know that.

You got to understand that a S&B DPS character is a flawed concept. There is nothing you can do about it via a PrE.

[Griphon]

If the THF benefits would changed to have the exact same numbers as TWF, would you then complain that TWF is getting more than THF?

Because that would be the case.


First off.. realize I really have no qualm between 2H and 2W fighting styles. That didn't come up because of me.. So yeah. Why even point that at me?

For me.. and assuming you're using the 'method' I laid out at the bottom of the post you quote... The balancing factor would be the AP COST of the Kensai - sub enhancements. Give the underpowered style some love at a cheaper cost.... While the giving some over powered style less love at the same cost or higher.

If you have a base line benefit line and 4 sub lines with their own benefits then the total benefits could be more tailored to the idea of balance of 'power' and balance of 'cost'.

And yes, I realize that due to some choices made that the 'sword and board' idea is sort of a FAIL! Which would be the reason that I complain adding things that would further decrease it's value, as well as offering ideas to fix some of the differences. I disagree that there is nothing you can do about helping it in a PrE. Every little bit helps, yah?

[Borror0]

First off.. realize I really have no qualm between 2H and 2W fighting styles.
Aren't you the one complaining that THF is getting too much from this enhancement?


The balancing factor would be the AP COST of the Kensai - sub enhancements.
AP cost is a weak balancing factor. TWF would be way better than THF in the way you desire it to be.

Why do you oppose balancing the reward they get?!

Every little bit helps, yah?
That is usually true, but not in this case.

Let's put it this way:

S&B: Low DPS, high AC.
TWF: High DPS, decent AC.
THF: Higer DPS, practically no AC

While it is not that way right now for stupid reasons, that should be about what it looks like if Eladrin desires balance between fighting styles while keeping them different. (He does.) That is the problem with S&B DPSers. They are at... less low DPS and decent AC? They are the equivalent of TWF, but with worse DPS, procs and Combat Feats.

[Griphon]

Aren't you the one complaining that THF is getting too much from this enhancement? No I'm complaining that 2Handers are getting more for the same cost. Subtle difference.


AP cost is a weak balancing factor. TWF would be way better than THF in the way you desire it to be. Cost is only part of the balancing act. (Do you only like read part of the posts and make comments?) The other part would be, as I said in the post you quoted, to give the styles that 'weak' for what ever reason slightly better enhancements than the overpowered ones.

Why do you oppose balancing the reward they get?!Threw me a curve here, I think. Rewards weren't mentioned! So, it came out at me out of left field. But.. Um.. last I checked I was the one calling for Balancing....

That is usually true, but not in this case.
Let's put it this way:

S&B: Low DPS, high AC. Disagree: Moderate AC and Low to Moderate DPS depending on gear and weapon type.
TWF: High DPS, decent AC. With the right equipment and build, Agreed. High AC tends to come from raid loot which throws this back into the 'lets keep it in the Average Joe concept range.
THF: Higer DPS, practically no AC

While it is not that way right now for stupid reasons, that should be about what it looks like if Eladrin desires balance between fighting styles while keeping them different. (He does.) That is the problem with S&B DPSers. They are at... less low DPS and decent AC? They are the equivalent of TWF, but with worse DPS, procs and Combat Feats. I'd consider a S&B who specalized in Kopesh as a moderate DPSer since they can crit into the 140 range carry over tons of extra damage from Shroud type gear. Having said that do I realize they are lower of the 3 mentioned types.


Replies in Red

[Eladrin]

Personally, I would take the glancing blow part off and make it universal to all characters wielding a two-handed weapons. Maybe moving the bonuses from Kensai to some of the two-handed fighting feats could be a way to do it. But, no matter how Eladrin manages the glancing blow part, Kensai would favor two-weapon fighters over two-handed fighters unless Eladrin varies the numbers from one fighting style to the other.
Might as well drop this in here too. (I'll edit the original post as well, so people don't have to go digging for it.)

The Two Handed Fighting chain of feats has also been changed to increase (from zero) the chance of glancing blows producing magical weapon effects.

[Tanka]

The Two Handed Fighting chain of feats has also been changed to increase (from zero) the chance of glancing blows producing magical weapon effects.
THANK YOU!

100% is overboard, but a chance is AWESOME!

[geoffhanna]

This is going to be very cool. My barbarian/ftr eagerly awaits her return to prominence.

Female Halfling Barbarian/Kensai Maulist Raging Battlesqueak FTW :)

[Griphon]

Might as well drop this in here too. (I'll edit the original post as well, so people don't have to go digging for it.)

The Two Handed Fighting chain of feats has also been changed to increase (from zero) the chance of glancing blows producing magical weapon effects.

Nice. Some luv for the 2Hander types.

[Borror0]

No I'm complaining that 2Handers are getting more for the same cost. Subtle difference.
That is somewhere between "not even true" and "debatable, show the numbers".

The other part would be, as I said in the post you quoted, to give the styles that 'weak' for what ever reason slightly better enhancements than the overpowered ones....this sentence doesn't make any sense.

If I am getting it right, which I am totally not sure of, you want to give weaker styles better enhancements? This is exactly what you are arguing against!

Threw me a curve here, I think. Rewards weren't mentioned! So, it came out at me out of left field. Huh?! Maybe you just didn't get what I meant.

A TWF gets more out of +2 to damage per swing than a THF. Agreed? If you agree to this, you agree with me that if the enhancement consist of giving +2 damage per swing then it is more rewarding for a TWF to pick that enhancement? How would it be bad for them to take that reality in consideration and adjust the benefits to each fighting style so that everyone gets what about as much?


S&B: Low DPS, high AC. Disagree: Moderate AC and Low to Moderate DPS depending on gear and weapon type.
TWF: High DPS, decent AC. With the right equipment and build, Agreed. High AC tends to come from raid loot which throws this back into the 'lets keep it in the Average Joe concept range. Replies in Red

It was a description of what it should. Not what it is. A description of what it currently is would look like this:

S&B: Crappy DPS, decent AC.
THF: High DPS, practically no AC.
TWF: Higher DPS, crazy high AC.

Regarding your 'average Joe' comment, it's actually harder to get good S&B AC than good TWF AC.

I'd consider a S&B who specalized in Kopesh as a moderate DPSer since they can crit into the 140 range carry over tons of extra damage from Shroud type gear.
If 50% of the DPS a TWF character could deal means moderate to you, then you are right.

I guess your definition of moderate is "at 50%".

[Borror0]

The Two Handed Fighting chain of feats has also been changed to increase (from zero) the chance of glancing blows producing magical weapon effects.
Cool. That should help in putting THF on the map again. Good news.

Now, about monk splash and Icy Raiment...;)

[nbhs275]

What i would love to know, is if now because of kensia's ki generating effect, your adding any additional weapons to the monks flurry lineup.

Are you adding whirling steel? A feat allowing flurry with longswords? Or is a kensia able to use monk abilities with the weapon he specializes with? This would be a great thing to know for many of use that have wanted to make some monk/fighter mixes but have been hesitant because of the compared strength of the ranger/monk builds.

[Borror0]

The Two Handed Fighting chain of feats has also been changed to increase (from zero) the chance of glancing blows producing magical weapon effects.
Oh, by the way, could it be possible to receive the definitive percentages when you settle on what it would be?

I am guessing they are still subject to changes but when you are more decided on what it will look like.. it'd be awesome to know.:)

[nbhs275]

Oh, by the way, could it be possible to receive the definitive percentages when you settle on what it would be?

I am guessing they are still subject to changes but when you are more decided on what it will look like.. it'd be awesome to know.:)

hopefully it scales with the feats in some predictable order, maybe 10% base for everyone and an additional 5-7 for each feat....and maybe another 15ish from kensie..would be nice for wounding or para to proc 30-40% of the time.

[Griphon]

That is somewhere between "not even true" and "debatable, show the numbers".
These two Enhancements are the ones I have issue with, Borro.



Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery I
Cost: 1 AP
Prereqs: Level 6 Fighter, Fighter Kensai I, Weapon Specialization: <appropriate weapon type>
Benefit (One handed, ranged, or thrown weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit and damage, and +2 to confirm criticals and critical damage (before multipliers) when using a <weapon>.
Benefit (Two handed weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit, +2 to damage and to confirm criticals and +4 to critical damage (before multipliers), as well as improved glancing blows that have a chance of applying magical weapon effects when using a <weapon>.

Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery II
Cost: 1 AP
Prereqs: Level 12 Fighter, Fighter Kensai II, Fighter <Specific Weapon> Specialization I, Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery I, Greater Weapon Specialization: <appropriate weapon type>
Benefit (One handed, ranged, or thrown weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit and damage, and +2 to confirm criticals and critical damage (before multipliers) when using a <weapon>.
Benefit (Two handed weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit, +2 to damage and to confirm criticals and +4 to critical damage (before multipliers), as well as improved glancing blows that have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects when using a <weapon>.

Terms used:
Two hander = Somebody swinging a two handed weapon
Two Weapon = somebody who swings two weapons
One Hander = Somebody who swings one weapon in one hand. (More than likely weilding a Kopesh, Bastard Sword, or Dwarven Waraxe, Rapier or other 'moderate' DPS weapon.) Can also be referenced as 'Sword and Board' as long as you don't assume this implies the character is shooting for HIGH AC as somebody interested in a higher AC will probably be going for the 'Defender' PrE.


Please note the different totals for One Handed Weapon and for Two Handed weapons. See how 2-handers are getting more from the Enchancement than One Handers. That is my complaint. One handers are paying the exact same cost, but are getting less 'reward' for the same enhancement. Wait I better show it all. Differences will be bold.

Considering only the two enhancements mentioned:
1-Handers get: +2 hit, +2 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +4 Crit Damage.
2-handers get: +2 Hit, +4 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +8 Crit Damage.

This difference while helping the Two-handers, it's hurting the One-Hand S&B crew. I had proposed a flat across the board benefit for all weapon types.. This is where the cries of making it same bonus across the board would only help Two Weapon Fighters. (Note: I have no care in the world about Two Weapon Fighters.) To calm these cries, I suggest splitting the line further and giving the Two Weapon Fighters their own enhancements to keep it from empowering an already healthy powered fighting style.

Splitting the bonus into styles even further would give them the ability to keep Two Weapons from being overpowered while possibly giving both 2-handers and 1-Handers a boost while keeping Two-Weapon Fighting from getting out of control.

So I guess there'd have to be 4 Kensia lines:
Kensia - Two Weapon Fighting
Kensia - Sword and Board
Kensia - Two handed Weapon
Kensia - Ranged/Thrown



If I am getting it right, which I am totally not sure of, you want to give weaker styles better enhancements? This is exactly what you are arguing against!

No it's not. See above. My complaint is the benefits of the Enhancement are better for 2-Handers than for 1-Handers for the same cost.

But yes. I did propose making the benefits for the Two Weapon Fighting line of Kensai that I suggested less than for for Two-handers or One-Handers. Either less or increase the cost for them, or both!

A really rough and dirty example would:
Leave Two-Handers at +2 Hit, +4 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +8 Crit Damage.
Change One-hander to: +3 hit, +4 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +6 Damage.
Leave Two Weapon at: +2 hit, +2 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +4 Crit Damage.

AP costs could also be adjusted to cost more for the 'stronger' Fighting styles. Two Ap for Two weapon, perhaps.


So let me state the complaint again to make sure it's concise: Two Handers are getting more from the Enhancement than a person wielding a single one hand weapon while paying the same amount in APs



A TWF gets more out of +2 to damage per swing than a THF. Agreed? If you agree to this, you agree with me that if the enhancement consist of giving +2 damage per swing then it is more rewarding for a TWF to pick that enhancement? How would it be bad for them to take that reality in consideration and adjust the benefits to each fighting style so that everyone gets what about as much?


I do agree. But I'm thinking you thought when I was saying 'One-Handers'. That I'd meant one handed weapons.... Which would allow some confusion because it would lead to the same bonuses for Two Weapon Fighting. While I was meaning more 'Sword and Board' type who is going for Weapon Specialization and moderate AC.. (As opposed to a Sword and Board type who'd be more interested in a High AC PrE and would be more interested in the defender.

Hopefully with me again explaining the 4 different lines I'm proposing, you'll understand that when I talked of 'One handers' I should said 'Weapon & Shield'.

[Deathseeker]

I'm having trouble containing my joy over all of this I'm so excited. But there is one big problem!!!!

WE NEED TOUGHER MOBS!

The current bunch have AC's that are too low. It's too easy to hit them. We keep adding all these goodies to the players...help the mobs a little so pure damage isnt the only thing that's desired by most! ;)

[nbhs275]

I'm having trouble containing my joy over all of this I'm so excited. But there is one big problem!!!!

WE NEED TOUGHER MOBS!

The current bunch have AC's that are too low. It's too easy to hit them. We keep adding all these goodies to the players...help the mobs a little so pure damage isnt the only thing that's desired by most! ;)

i hope thats sarcasm....pure damage is actually not the most effective way to kill most mobs because they have over inflated hitpoints and relatively low con scores. If anything, they should increase their con, bring down their hitpoints, and lower their saves some. Far too unwieldy that most of the mobs in the 4 new quests have rampant immunities, evasion, and high saves.

[Deathseeker]

i hope thats sarcasm....pure damage is actually not the most effective way to kill most mobs because they have over inflated hitpoints and relatively low con scores. If anything, they should increase their con, bring down their hitpoints, and lower their saves some. Far too unwieldy that most of the mobs in the 4 new quests have rampant immunities, evasion, and high saves.

I totally agree that Con should go up (I wouldn't lower the HP however). But I also think mob AC needs to go up. If Kensai raises the crit threat range, it will just make the stat vs dps problem even worse than it is. Raising con and mob ac will help raise the need for more to-hit bonuses (ie a main part of Kensai) and lower the advantages of stat damagers a little. Higher AC will also make vorpal a little less optimal vs damage as well (higher con won't help that). This would also bring the "tempest advantage" back in line a little, as dps can be helped by tempest or kensai, but stat dmg is much more heavily helped by a speed increase than a to-hit/damage increase, especially when the to-hit component is only useful against a small fraction of mobs faced.

I think we should be choosing whether to go damage or stat based on our desired build...not be forced into a certain type of build because one is so much more effective than the other. Thus, balancing hp, stats and AC on the mobs would help. HP is way too high, but other stats are way too low along with AC. Raising AC and lowering HP would achieve the balance (as AC would make stat dmg harder also).

[Korvek]

Might as well drop this in here too. (I'll edit the original post as well, so people don't have to go digging for it.)

The Two Handed Fighting chain of feats has also been changed to increase (from zero) the chance of glancing blows producing magical weapon effects.

Would that apply only to damage-specific effects, or to effects such as vorpal, disruption, and smiting as well?

And if vicious were to apply to the glancing blows, would I be correct in assuming that the backlash damage will still occur?

[maddmatt70]

Might as well drop this in here too. (I'll edit the original post as well, so people don't have to go digging for it.)

The Two Handed Fighting chain of feats has also been changed to increase (from zero) the chance of glancing blows producing magical weapon effects.

I know this very tough for you guys, but any chance you can improve the animation sequence for two handed fighting. The last attack in the sequence is very slow so as you are probably aware people to maintain a high dps when thf cheat the last attack motion. This leads to less dps when you fail to cheat it successfully. I do not enjoy trying to cheat an attack sequence - personally it deters my enjoyment of thf. I am actually going to level up sometime this mod a quarterstaff rogue/monk my primary reason is because I would like a thf melee and the quarterstaff animation is different then other thf and it seems like I wouldn't have to cheat the attack motion for quarterstaff as much.

[Tharlak]

Might as well drop this in here too. (I'll edit the original post as well, so people don't have to go digging for it.)

The Two Handed Fighting chain of feats has also been changed to increase (from zero) the chance of glancing blows producing magical weapon effects.

Excellent news. Thank you!

[Balkas]

Would that apply only to damage-specific effects, or to effects such as vorpal, disruption, and smiting as well?

And if vicious were to apply to the glancing blows, would I be correct in assuming that the backlash damage will still occur?





"Special effects" refers to things like "flaming", "vorpal", and the like.



:)

[DagazUlf]

Might as well drop this in here too. (I'll edit the original post as well, so people don't have to go digging for it.)

The Two Handed Fighting chain of feats has also been changed to increase (from zero) the chance of glancing blows producing magical weapon effects.

Now that right there... that puts a seriously big, dumb grin on my face. Thanks Eladrin. :D

[Korvek]

:)

Doh, didn't notice that. Thanks.

[Strykersz]

I totally agree that Con should go up (I wouldn't lower the HP however). But I also think mob AC needs to go up. If Kensai raises the crit threat range, it will just make the stat vs dps problem even worse than it is. Raising con and mob ac will help raise the need for more to-hit bonuses (ie a main part of Kensai) and lower the advantages of stat damagers a little. Higher AC will also make vorpal a little less optimal vs damage as well (higher con won't help that). This would also bring the "tempest advantage" back in line a little, as dps can be helped by tempest or kensai, but stat dmg is much more heavily helped by a speed increase than a to-hit/damage increase, especially when the to-hit component is only useful against a small fraction of mobs faced.

I think we should be choosing whether to go damage or stat based on our desired build...not be forced into a certain type of build because one is so much more effective than the other. Thus, balancing hp, stats and AC on the mobs would help. HP is way too high, but other stats are way too low along with AC. Raising AC and lowering HP would achieve the balance (as AC would make stat dmg harder also).

Higher AC would, on balance, hurt killing via dps more than stat damage/vorping because ceteris paribus, you have a lower to hit while dps'ing than doing stat damage due to power attack.

[Desteria]

Desteria, ever heard of multiquote? :P

Some times i hit points that i just HAVE to replie to right away, that and i SUCKS at it.... on adn this was i get to power level my post count ;)

[Borror0]

Some times i hit points that i just HAVE to replie to right away, that and i SUCKS at it.... on adn this was i get to power level my post count ;)
Pffft! Post farmer!

[Desteria]

The button next to the Quote button is the Multiquote. Hit as many as you want, hit Post Reply, ta-da! Multiquote!

never figured otu HTF that button works never seams to actuyl do any thign when i hti ti so i have to muti quote manualy wich is why i dont often...

[Desteria]

These two Enhancements are the ones I have issue with, Borro.



Terms used:
Two hander = Somebody swinging a two handed weapon
Two Weapon = somebody who swings two weapons
One Hander = Somebody who swings one weapon in one hand. (More than likely weilding a Kopesh, Bastard Sword, or Dwarven Waraxe, Rapier or other 'moderate' DPS weapon.) Can also be referenced as 'Sword and Board' as long as you don't assume this implies the character is shooting for HIGH AC as somebody interested in a higher AC will probably be going for the 'Defender' PrE.


Please note the different totals for One Handed Weapon and for Two Handed weapons. See how 2-handers are getting more from the Enchancement than One Handers. That is my complaint. One handers are paying the exact same cost, but are getting less 'reward' for the same enhancement. Wait I better show it all. Differences will be bold.

Considering only the two enhancements mentioned:
1-Handers get: +2 hit, +2 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +4 Crit Damage.
2-handers get: +2 Hit, +4 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +8 Crit Damage.

This difference while helping the Two-handers, it's hurting the One-Hand S&B crew. I had proposed a flat across the board benefit for all weapon types.. This is where the cries of making it same bonus across the board would only help Two Weapon Fighters. (Note: I have no care in the world about Two Weapon Fighters.) To calm these cries, I suggest splitting the line further and giving the Two Weapon Fighters their own enhancements to keep it from empowering an already healthy powered fighting style.



OK BTU what your forgettign is Thanders ARE sacrficign somethign fro that added bonus.... they are scarificing havign any thign in there off hand THATS the reason it;s better you cant just look at the AP cost thats not the full cost fo the fighting style....

The true costs are 1 ap each AND:
1-handed then costs one item slot for +2 hit, +2 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +4 Crit Damage. and have a sheild slot to gain other bonuses thats the choice they makign goign 1 weapon fighting giving up damage for other bonuses.
2-handers then cost 2 ITEM SLOTS for +2 Hit, +4 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +8 Crit Damage.
2 weapon fighters then cost 2 ITEM SLOTS for +2 Hit, +4 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +8 Crit Damage.

Looks balanced to be sure the damage increses arnt all teh SAME, but the total costs arnt all the same either(the ap cost is the same but thats not the only cost), TWF and THF the 2 damage styles get the same increase to damage...

Ok thf gets soem bonus glancing blow stuff but that really just a side effect that they need to ad dto try adn balace thf and twf back out sicne ultimatly thf shoult be best damage option least defense option.

[Borror0]

I know this very tough for you guys, but any chance you can improve the animation sequence for two handed fighting.
It is not limited to THF, but THF is really the worse one of the three fighting styles...

I just started a thread about BAB problems here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1941491#post1941491).

[Borror0]

See how 2-handers are getting more from the Enchancement than One Handers.
Your complaint would be somewhat valid if it would be phrased differently.

Something like "Two-handed and two-weapon fighting characters are getting more out of these enhancements than characters than characters fighting with a weapon in their main hand and a shield in their offhand. That shouldn't be allowed." would be more valid than your current complaint.

However, then, a case could be made about two-handed and two-weapon fighting being more DPS-centric than S&B.

This difference while helping the Two-handers, it's hurting the One-Hand S&B crew.
And if nothing would have been done, it would hurt both the THF and the S&B characters at the gain (once more) of TWF.

(Note: I have no care in the world about Two Weapon Fighters.)
What do you mean?

Do you mean that you believe "So is life" and that you wouldn't personally address this obvious issue?

No it's not. See above. My complaint is the benefits of the Enhancement are better for 2-Handers than for 1-Handers for the same cost.
If I got what you suggest right, you suggest making the enhancements cheaper to the weaker styles and than adding other enhancements, that would be stronger and specialized for them, in order to make up the difference. How is that any different than what you are complaining about?!

You are simply moving how it is done. Results are the same, except it requires more work from Turbine.

A really rough and dirty example would:
Leave Two-Handers at +2 Hit, +4 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +8 Crit Damage.
Change One-hander to: +3 hit, +4 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +6 Damage.
Leave Two Weapon at: +2 hit, +2 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +4 Crit Damage.
That is just silly.

Like all the doctors that I have seen in the last year, you are trying to ignore the real problem and simply work around it instead of fixing it. The same way they try to prescribe me sleeping pills when I talk to them about my sleeping disorders problem (and by sleeping disorders I mean that when I wake up every morning with the feeling someone had a lot of fun involving a shovel and my head while I slept), you are trying to modify the enhancement so that S&B aren't so left behind rather than attacking what you would see as the real problem.

TWF and THF are more DPS-centric than S&B. If you really believe that S&B is too penalized by the way things currently behave, then you should try to remedy the problem as a whole. Not this enhancement. The modifications that have been with THF in mind were to make sure THF would gain as much as TWF while keeping the spirit of the enhancement. Eladrin could have done it differently, but it would have the feeling he desired.

But then, we get to the point where you are simply trying to make S&B be good in a way that can't happen.

AP costs could also be adjusted to cost more for the 'stronger' Fighting styles. Two Ap for Two weapon, perhaps.
That would be extremely silly because two-weapon is getting as much out of it as THF...

[Griphon]

OK BTU what your forgettign is Thanders ARE sacrficign somethign fro that added bonus.... they are scarificing havign any thign in there off hand THATS the reason it;s better you cant just look at the AP cost thats not the full cost fo the fighting style....

The true costs are 1 ap each AND:
1-handed then costs one item slot for +2 hit, +2 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +4 Crit Damage. and have a sheild slot to gain other bonuses thats the choice they makign goign 1 weapon fighting giving up damage for other bonuses.
2-handers then cost 2 ITEM SLOTS for +2 Hit, +4 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +8 Crit Damage.
2 weapon fighters then cost 2 ITEM SLOTS for +2 Hit, +4 Damage, +4 Crit Confirm, and +8 Crit Damage.

Looks balanced to be sure the damage increses arnt all teh SAME, but the total costs arnt all the same either(the ap cost is the same but thats not the only cost), TWF and THF the 2 damage styles get the same increase to damage...

Ok thf gets soem bonus glancing blow stuff but that really just a side effect that they need to ad dto try adn balace thf and twf back out sicne ultimatly thf shoult be best damage option least defense option.

Ok.. This has made me stop and think.

And while I can see where you're coming from and see all the numbers lining up to balance out TWF and 2HF.

But let me let me try and make this one point to you again. Pay close attention: My original complaint has absolutely nothing to do with Two Weapon Fighting. So really showing me how the PrE is sort of balancing out TWF and THF really does NOTHING to address the complaint/issue or even the topic I've been discussing. (Except that now, I also see that TWF is also getting more out of the PrE than the S&B crew as well, buy that is a 'nature of the beast' issue that could be resolved as well.)

Do you understand?

The only reason I addressed the 2WF issue is as part of a resolution that included a balancing feature.

OK.. Moving on then

I still think the PrE is favoring 2Handers while widening the disadvantages the crew using a single weapon and a shield. I simply think it's poor game design. If this went into place as is it would only serve to bolster the effect we see currently of having 2Handers or 2WFighters as the mainstay of the melee types, and the S&B having less and less reason to actually exist.

Example:All feats give a flat bonus across the board. Weapon Focus, Weapon specialization, Superior Weapon Specialization and Focus....

No Enhancement line that is available to everybody in a PrE and costs the same for everybody should get different benefits. Just my point of view.

If they want to give 2Handers an extra chance at applying special effects on glancing blows then they should separate that out into a sub-Enhancement line for somebody specializing in 2HW. This gives them an extra ability, and should cost them an extra AP cost.

The same idea should go for 2WF as well. If they want to use their second hand weapon and get Kensia bonuses for it.. They should add a sub-enhancement line that allows, with the default being that it only applies to the main hand.

For Ranged and S&B Kensia? The only suggestions I could give is to give them ability to increase the main hand weapon even more. Although a nice speed increase for the Ranged Kensia would be awesome for the Ranged types. (We might start seeing 14 Ranger 6 Fighter builds.)

Yes, I do realize this would take slightly extra bit more Code-Work. But then checks to see if a weapon is 2Her or if a character is using 2WF or S&B are already in place, so it shouldn't be too drastic of a challenge. I also think it would be extremely helpful in the whole 'balance' issue, as well as to help build concepts that are lagging behind due to inherit game mechanic issues.

(Man.. Is this Horse dead yet?)

[Borror0]

No Enhancement line that is available to everybody in a PrE and costs the same for everybody should get different benefits. Just my point of view.
I haven't seen you complain about S&B only getting +5 from Power Attack. When is that scheduled for?

[VonBek]

I still think the PrE is favoring 2Handers while widening the disadvantages the crew using a single weapon and a shield. I simply think it's poor game design. If this went into place as is it would only serve to bolster the effect we see currently of having 2Handers or 2WFighters as the mainstay of the melee types, and the S&B having less and less reason to actually exist.


I've dropped a few bits of information previously on some of the various Prestige Enhancements currently scheduled for Module 9 in various threads. Each week, I'll be posting one of these or a capstone enhancement to let you see what I'm working on. As usual, they're all still subject to change in playtest, and I ask that people not freak out too much about being "nerfed" or "buffed" if they do, or I'll have to stop since The Cube won't let me post them anymore. :)

Let's start with the kensai.

---


There's more to this than just "Kensai", no? Or did I miss something from one of his other posts, maybe from another thread?

[Borror0]

There's more to this than just "Kensai", no? Or did I miss something from one of his other posts, maybe from another thread?
There is more. He hasn't posted anything new yet, but the changes to the THF feat line though.

Griphon is overreacting as that is only one out of three fighter PrE's.

By the way, go ways to make sure you haven't missed one of Eladrin post is to check Eladrin's latest posts (http://forums.ddo.com/search.php?searchid=3498077) or the Dev Tracker (http://forums.ddo.com/turbine_tracker.php?tracker=devtracker). There is also the Dev Tracker RSS feed that was pretty awesome. Sadly, though, it is still down. I hope willphase will get it working soon again. /wave at willphase ;)

[Desteria]

Ok.. This has made me stop and think.

And while I can see where you're coming from and see all the numbers lining up to balance out TWF and 2HF.

But let me let me try and make this one point to you again. Pay close attention: My original complaint has absolutely nothing to do with Two Weapon Fighting. So really showing me how the PrE is sort of balancing out TWF and THF really does NOTHING to address the complaint/issue or even the topic I've been discussing. (Except that now, I also see that TWF is also getting more out of the PrE than the S&B crew as well, buy that is a 'nature of the beast' issue that could be resolved as well.)

Do you understand?

The only reason I addressed the 2WF issue is as part of a resolution that included a balancing feature.

OK.. Moving on then

I still think the PrE is favoring 2Handers while widening the disadvantages the crew using a single weapon and a shield. I simply think it's poor game design. If this went into place as is it would only serve to bolster the effect we see currently of having 2Handers or 2WFighters as the mainstay of the melee types, and the S&B having less and less reason to actually exist.

Example:All feats give a flat bonus across the board. Weapon Focus, Weapon specialization, Superior Weapon Specialization and Focus....

No Enhancement line that is available to everybody in a PrE and costs the same for everybody should get different benefits. Just my point of view.

If they want to give 2Handers an extra chance at applying special effects on glancing blows then they should separate that out into a sub-Enhancement line for somebody specializing in 2HW. This gives them an extra ability, and should cost them an extra AP cost.

The same idea should go for 2WF as well. If they want to use their second hand weapon and get Kensia bonuses for it.. They should add a sub-enhancement line that allows, with the default being that it only applies to the main hand.

For Ranged and S&B Kensia? The only suggestions I could give is to give them ability to increase the main hand weapon even more. Although a nice speed increase for the Ranged Kensia would be awesome for the Ranged types. (We might start seeing 14 Ranger 6 Fighter builds.)

Yes, I do realize this would take slightly extra bit more Code-Work. But then checks to see if a weapon is 2Her or if a character is using 2WF or S&B are already in place, so it shouldn't be too drastic of a challenge. I also think it would be extremely helpful in the whole 'balance' issue, as well as to help build concepts that are lagging behind due to inherit game mechanic issues.

(Man.. Is this Horse dead yet?)

The balace betwene THF and 1 weapon fighting is NOT a PRC issue it's over all style issue the BALANCE is ALWAYS there THF gets bigger bonuses to DAMAGE from a lto of things str PA etc BECAUSE they GIVE UP havign somethign in there off hand be it a sheild or what ever, (in ddo it;s limited to sheild or other weapon but where it comes form ie PnP there are varius other things you coudl want that hand for)

The point is THF SHOULD gain more form the same things then one hand fighting that is an INHERENT property of THF in D&D Simple as that,(eg. PA/str), they do pay a cost for this and that cost is loseing the use of there off hand for other things, liek holdign a sheild, (note sheidls are not just AC, you coudl use varius necro or other non ac sheild for all sorts of specal effects like GFL fearsom deathblock saves etc. etc.

in the end when you consider the BIG picture or the WHOLE cost they are not payign the same price for a lesser gain, thf pays 2 hands 1 ap, 1 weapon pays 1 hand and 1 ap, the question is how mainy AP;s is hand worth?
BUT you cant make it more expensive imo because frankly it;s JUST barly worth it atm with all the pre costs, and you cant make it cost less then 1 so you cant make 1 handers cheaper and imo no change is needed.

[Griphon]

Your complaint would be somewhat valid if it would be phrased differently.

Something like "Two-handed and two-weapon fighting characters are getting more out of these enhancements than characters than characters fighting with a weapon in their main hand and a shield in their offhand. That shouldn't be allowed." would be more valid than your current complaint. Thank you Borror0, thats exactly my complaint rephrased. (It's good to know somebody is at least 'getting where you're coming from'.

However, then, a case could be made about two-handed and two-weapon fighting being more DPS-centric than S&B. Here I have to disagree. This goes back to the idea of benefits and sacrifices. Both TWF and THF are 'advanced' styles and supposed to be more DPS centric than S&B (which should be considred 'basic' style)

And if nothing would have been done, it would hurt both the THF and the S&B characters at the gain (once more) of TWF. I agree. I, however, do not see the need to widen the disadvantage of the S&B crew yet more.

What do you mean? I orginally meant that I didn't care as to how the PrE affected the TWFs. I've since 'seen the light' to realize that the 2HF and the 'One Hand weapon' issue was split to keep the TWF in check.. But believe they failed to consider the S&B Crew. Especially when one more Sub-Enchancement line would have resolved the issue.

If I got what you suggest right, you suggest making the enhancements cheaper to the weaker styles and than adding other enhancements, that would be stronger and specialized for them, in order to make up the difference. How is that any different than what you are complaining about?! It is different in that it would not be further hurting any one Style. All styles would be addressed and slight bumps given to those who needed it. Balance.

You are simply moving how it is done. Yes and No. My ideas would keep from hurting any one style, while helping those that need it. Current design advance both TWF and THF styles more so than Ranged or S&B. Breaking them apart further would help 3 styles instead of mostly helping 2.
Results are the same, except it requires more work from Turbine. Um.. Results not the same, check the above Red for clarification. More work for Turbine. Yes. Yes it would. More work for Eladrin and his cohorts of Coding. But I think the changes would make for a better game in the long run, by not advancing any single style more so than any other.

That is just silly. What ever. Thanks for belittling valid ideas, concerns and suggestions.

Like all the doctors that I have seen in the last year, you are trying to ignore the real problem and simply work around it instead of fixing it. The same way they try to prescribe me sleeping pills when I talk to them about my sleeping disorders problem (and by sleeping disorders I mean that when I wake up every morning with the feeling someone had a lot of fun involving a shovel and my head while I slept),
A really.. uh.. 'heart warming' analogy or something. Sorry for your sleeping problems. I would suggest not ****ing off the person your sleeping with as they seem to be hitting you on the head with a shovel while you sleep soundly and deeply under the heavy medication prescribed by your doctors. (A joke folks. If you can't make fun somebody's medical issues sleeping.. then what can you poke fun at?)

you are trying to modify the enhancement so that S&B aren't so left behind rather than attacking what you would see as the real problem. Yes and No. I'm trying to stop the placement of a PrE that would advance the current trend of their only being 2FWers and 2HFers because S&D crew are so vastly 'inferior' in most ways. (Can't get the High AC, Can't get the high DPS.) Or one that would pigeon hole all S&B Crew to resort to having to go the 'Defender' route because it's the only benefit they can get.

A more personal comment that has little to do with the current conversation: But since you obviously know what I see as the 'real problem'.. Then you know the 'real problem' I see is the Enhancement system as a whole. But it's not like they're going to just rip it out... So I'm focusing on the proposed PrE and trying to get some 'balance' installed so that it doesn't cause further problems in the whole 'balance' concept.

(Oh and puh-lease.. Nobody say something stupid like 'You don't -have-' to take Enhancements. The game has been designed around them, making them required. Eample: A rogue w/o enhancement lines is near useless on higher level traps.)

Oh. And another problem is the liberal usage of 'Dodge' bonuses on certain items in the game which allow for extreme AC bonuses. Dodge should be rare as it's the only stacking bonus type... But again.. It's highly unlikely to get something removed/altered thats been in the game for ages.



The modifications that have been with THF in mind were to make sure THF would gain as much as TWF while keeping the spirit of the enhancement. Eladrin could have done it differently, but it would have the feeling he desired.Yes. And I'm trying to get him to double think and perhaps come to the realization that while it's good to help 2HF, it shouldn't be done in the same enhancement line as S&B who get nothing 'extra'. I am calling for a slight redesign of the PrE line, so that individual styles can be addressed if any single style is going to receive freebies... I see nothing wrong with this request.

But then, we get to the point where you are simply trying to make S&B be good in a way that can't happen. No. I don't believe I am. I see myself as only trying to stop a PrE that as is favors some fighting styles over others. (As well as give freebies to an individual style.) I'm trying to bring light to the view that perhaps this PrE could be redesigned in a different way and have better results for the game as w whole.

That would be extremely silly because two-weapon is getting as much out of it as THF...Yes. As I said above THF and TWF are getting nearly the same benefits when all considered. However as you aptly put it: My issue it the PrE favors 2WF and 2HF too much, while giving too little to S&B. (And possibly Range. I keep forgetting the other 'red headed step child of the Kensia possibilities.)

Replies in Red

[Desteria]

Replies in Red
And if nothing would have been done, it would hurt both the THF and the S&B characters at the gain (once more) of TWF.COLOR="Red"] I agree. I, however, do not see the need to widen the disadvantage of the S&B crew yet more.[/COLOR]


I see EVEN LESS need to widen the gap betwene TWF and EVERYTHING ELSE I'd rahter see on gap shrink and oen gap widen then 2 gaps widen Especaly wiht TWF is the oen that does not need ANY help at all...

[Desteria]

Replies in Red
(And possibly Range. I keep forgetting the other 'red headed step child of the Kensia possibilities.)

Range is the red headed step child of all DDO not just this PRC it can never pe made to good becasue in a MMO enviroment if range was as goo d as it is in PnP wich is devistating in the right hands, it would over power EVERY thign else and we woudl se enothign but peopel with bows kitting every thing.

[Borror0]

Thank you Borror0, thats exactly my complaint rephrased. (It's good to know somebody is at least 'getting where you're coming from'.
It's good to know that is what your complaint is, however this wasn't what you were saying before.

[ But believe they failed to consider the S&B Crew.
You are conscious that this is one of three PrE's dedicated to fighters?

Your argument holds no water at all. By the same logic you use, TWF should get +5 from per swing from Power Attack and both THF and S&B should get +10 from Power Attack. (Even there, it wouldn't be perfect since the swing speed are not perfect. S&B would gain more out of it than THF and TWF.) However, Power Attack is not made that way.

What matters is the whole. Not the parts.

I would suggest not ****ing off the person your sleeping with as they seem to be hitting you on the head with a shovel while you sleep soundly and deeply under the heavy medication prescribed by your doctors.
Ok, now you got me laughing. XD

But I don't take medication because it won't solve the problem. No point ruining my health for that.

[...] because S&D crew are so vastly 'inferior' in most ways. (Can't get the High AC, Can't get the high DPS.)
There, again, you are addressing the wrong issues.

If those problems exist, it is not due to this PrE. It's existence will not, should not and most likely cannot address the issues you are talking about.

Or one that would pigeon hole all S&B Crew to resort to having to go the 'Defender' route because it's the only benefit they can get.
It is as much pigeonholing to say S&B is about high AC than to say barbarians are about damage and rangers about range or TWF.

Then you know the 'real problem' I see is the Enhancement system as a whole.
Nope. I do not blame the enhancement system at all for this. If they are guilty of anything, it is to accentuate the inherent mistakes within the core rules.

The real problem is how S&B is designed compared to THF and TWF. Turbine limited Power Attack to +5 and to-hit matter very little. From that point, TWF is obviously going to get much better than bothy THF and S&B. Glancing blows can make up for the difference between THF and TWF if balanced properly.

So, the one being left out and flawed in his concept is S&B.

And another problem is the liberal usage of 'Dodge' bonuses on certain items in the game which allow for extreme AC bonuses. Dodge should be rare as it's the only stacking bonus type.
You won't see me disagreeing to that... and they have to do something about it.

Yes. And I'm trying to get him to double think and perhaps come to the realization that while it's good to help 2HF, it shouldn't be done in the same enhancement line as S&B who get nothing 'extra'. I am calling for a slight redesign of the PrE line, so that individual styles can be addressed if any single style is going to receive freebies... I see nothing wrong with this request.
Let me elaborate more on what I meant by that.

The clear flavor of Kensai is accuracy. Fighter Attack Bonus, Fighter Critical Accuracy and weapon focuses are prereqs; to-hit bonus, bonus to confirming critical hit and greater critical threat range are benefits. The problem with that flavor is that it will automatically flavor TWF over THF.

Eladrin could have done the enhancement in multiple ways where the enhancement would be more in favor of THF than it currently is, but I cannot think of a single way to do it without getting out of the "accuracy" theme that is expressed by these enhancements. Instead, what he seems to have decided to do is to make a special clause for THF so it isn't penalized.

Of the multiple ways he could have done it to make it more balanced between THF and TWF, S&B would have gained as much in comparison to TWF as it does now.

I don't believe I am. I see myself as only trying to stop a PrE that as is favors some fighting styles over others.
You can't prevent that from happening nor is it a good thing to stop.

What really matters, in the end, is the overall balance. Not the individual parts. Otherwise, you should be complaining about Power Attack.

And possibly Range. I keep forgetting the other 'red headed step child of the Kensia possibilities.
Here again, the real problem is that ranged sucks. It's not the fault of Kensai.

[Griphon]

There's more to this than just "Kensai", no? Or did I miss something from one of his other posts, maybe from another thread?
Yup, More coming. Yay for information floating down from the Devs. :)


I haven't seen you complain about S&B only getting +5 from Power Attack. When is that scheduled for?

So, Borror0? Do you often make these sort of comments that seem snide and only intended to try and get a rise out of somebody?

For the record, I have no issue that S&B only get +5 Power Attack. All fighting styles get the same benefit from this Feat. It's a Feat that everybody who meets the requirements can access and get the same benefits from no matter the melee style they use.. I see no problem with the game design of it.

I don't even see a problem with the Barbarian and the Warforged Power Attack enhancement lines. These affect all melee fighting styles equally as well.

So yeah.. Please take attempts at Troll-age else where.



Griphon is overreacting as that is only one out of three fighter PrE's.


Right! Because it's 'over reacting' to try and discuss things with out resorting to snide remarks or accusations. I'm a horrible human being. :) Okay, so maybe the joke about the whole sleep disorder thing could be troll-age. but it was a joke.

(Doing that reply in Red bit for Destria's post below)

The balace betwene THF and 1 weapon fighting is NOT a PRC issue it's over all style issue the BALANCE is ALWAYS there THF gets bigger bonuses to DAMAGE from a lto of things str PA etc BECAUSE they GIVE UP havign somethign in there off hand be it a sheild or what ever, (in ddo it;s limited to sheild or other weapon but where it comes form ie PnP there are varius other things you coudl want that hand for)
I can agree to this, I think. The Balance between THF and and 1 weapon fighting is not and probably should not be addressed in a PrE. Remember I initially suggested a flat bonus for all Fighting Styles because it wouldn't favor any specifically. (No need to say how it favors the TWFings, please.) But then I can also say that the balance between TWF and THF shouldn't be addressed in the PrE either... which would mean no increased chance to the glancing blows to give Special Effects inside the PrE.

For the record: THF only gains extra damage from higher damage dice, the str x 1.5 bonus and higher crit multiplers or crit range. Power attack effects all melee fighting styles the same. Power attack is added to the result of the damage dice along with strength damage, but is not multiplied by the 1.5 bit.

The point is THF SHOULD gain more form the same things then one hand fighting that is an INHERENT property of THF in D&D Simple as that,(eg. PA/str), they do pay a cost for this and that cost is loseing the use of there off hand for other things, liek holdign a sheild, (note sheidls are not just AC, you coudl use varius necro or other non ac sheild for all sorts of specal effects like GFL fearsom deathblock saves etc. etc.

I have no issue with THF or TWF outside of this PrE. I realize and agree with the idea that there some inherit things to each fighting style. Examples: 2HF getting more damage from str.
2WF getting more attacks per melee from two weapons.
S&B getting up to 9pts of AC more and shield extras.

However, these concepts still do not invalidate that the PrE should have a flat benefit value for all fighting styles. Or should be designed that bonuses are present for each individual style. It should -not- give extra bonuses to once style over others.

in the end when you consider the BIG picture or the WHOLE cost they are not payign the same price for a lesser gain, thf pays 2 hands 1 ap, 1 weapon pays 1 hand and 1 ap, the question is how mainy AP;s is hand worth?
BUT you cant make it more expensive imo because frankly it;s JUST barly worth it atm with all the pre costs, and you cant make it cost less then 1 so you cant make 1 handers cheaper and imo no change is needed.
If you make THF and TWF pay more to gain the benefits, then perhaps 1 weapon should be the default? If you want to use gain the extra benefits the PrE 'could' grant to the other fighting styles you pay more AP to do so. Example: Make Kensia affect only main hand weapon and give a flat value to it. The person wants to be able to get the benefits on his TWFing? He has to purcase the enhancement line that allows it. The person wants to increase the chances of added effects to his glancing blow for his THFer? He purchases the line for it.


Hurm.. This Multiquote bit isn't so hard once you get used to it. It does seem to 'add' the quote in the order you click them though.. Something I'll have to watch. :)


I see EVEN LESS need to widen the gap betwene TWF and EVERYTHING ELSE I'd rahter see on gap shrink and oen gap widen then 2 gaps widen Especaly wiht TWF is the oen that does not need ANY help at all...

I agree. Which is why I've gone so far as saying there needs to be at least 3 sub-enhancement lines that effects a certain style.


Range is the red headed step child of all DDO not just this PRC it can never pe made to good becasue in a MMO enviroment if range was as goo d as it is in PnP wich is devistating in the right hands, it would over power EVERY thign else and we woudl se enothign but peopel with bows kitting every thing.

I know it is. It's a sad sad thing too. My first character was a Ranged-Ranger, so it turned out to be a big let down because of the Nerfs to it. I disagree that it can't be made good with out it being made over powering. But this is not the thread for it, I think Aesop has a good thread running about possible improvements to Range.

[Borror0]

For the record, I have no issue that S&B only get +5 Power Attack. All fighting styles get the same benefit from this Feat. It's a Feat that everybody who meets the requirements can access and get the same benefits from no matter the melee style they use.. I see no problem with the game design of it.
Sorry, but that simply not true.

In the time that S&B gets a bonus of +25.00 damage from Power Attack, THF gets a bonus between 42.70 and +47.19 damage and TWF gets a bonus of 46.63 damage. That is at 16 BAB. If you have BAB of 14 or lower, the ratio will be different and you will also gain more out of Power Attack.

Your critique of this PrE could be applied to PA. If you are OK with PA, there is no reason to not be OK with this PrE.

Right! Because it's 'over reacting' to try and discuss things with out resorting to snide remarks or accusations. I'm a horrible human being. :)
Calm down. You are the one making snide remarks and accusations now.

I didn't call you an idiot, which you are not, I simply said your reaction is too hasty. We can judge the whole until we have seen the whole. We can only look at the design of this PrE and judge whether it is well designed or not. It is. Maybe that when we factor PrE's, feats, spells, gear or enhancements introduced in Module 9.0 I will have negative comments to make about the enhancement. But for now, Eladrin has made a good job one that one.

I might have suggest some slight modification, but nothing of the order you are suggesting. I'll wait to see Defenser and Knight of the Purple Dragon (Couldn't they have chosen a PrC with a more riddiculous name? hehe) before that. Possibly also Tempest II and III.

[Griphon]

You are conscious that this is one of three PrE's dedicated to fighters?

Yes I do realize that. And I'm ONLY focusing on what I see as imbalances internal to this specific PrE. Really, I am:) I'd rather the whole PrE a flat Benefit value to all fighting types. I only offered the 'solution' that involved special sub-enhancements to specific fighting styles when people complained it would be most beneficial to TWFers. The fact that TWF's more attack per second causes more dps and issues with special effects. That, however, is not something I'm trying to address in this thread. It's not the time nor place for it, right?

I also want to state that I realize PrE is specific to a character who wants to maximize his usage of the Specialized Weapon Feat. It's not the 'sword and board' PrE, it's not the 'Two Weapon fighting' PrE, and it's not the Two handed Fighting' PrE.. Nor should it become such. I can easily go with no special perks for any PrE and go with a flat value for all. (Again don't tell me how that helps TWF)

Your argument holds no water at all. By the same logic you use, TWF should get +5 from per swing from Power Attack and both THF and S&B should get +10 from Power Attack. (Even there, it wouldn't be perfect since the swing speed are not perfect. S&B would gain more out of it than THF and TWF.) However, Power Attack is not made that way.

My 'argument holds water' because as you've already shown.. the Feat Power Attack gives a base flat line bonus to ALL weapon fighting styles. That is exactly what I want for this PrE.. as I've stated previously. The PrE should give a flat value to all. (Again no mentioning of how that is better for TWFers please)

Possible Sub-Enhancements could be added if the developers feel inclined. A THF Kensia sub enchancement to give the extra chances at glancing blow damage with specials.

The restriction to place the PrE bonus to the main hand weapon would also keep it from advancing the TWFing PrE.


What matters is the whole. Not the parts.

Ok, now you got me laughing. XD

But I don't take medication because it won't solve the problem. No point ruining my health for that.
WOOT! Score one for the Griph. ;) Laughs at things meant at joking are always good. Again sorry for the 'Sleeping Issue'. I have just yer basic Insomnia myself. So drugs at least help with that.

There, again, you are addressing the wrong issues.
Perhaps so.. The issue (Can't get the High AC, Can't get the high DPS.) comes from various factors, like the usage of too much dodge bonuses. But that isn't likely to change since it's been in the game for 'so long'.

If those problems exist, it is not due to this PrE. It's existence will not, should not and most likely cannot address the issues you are talking about.
Perhaps not. But then if it's not going to address issues for S&B Crew, then it should not also address issues for other classes. There should not be an extra chance to trigger 'special effects' on glancing blows. I view this as an attempt to increase the DPS of THFing because the whole concept of triggered specials is being added because the DPS of THF is lagging. If it's felt that it's needed to make a viable 2HF kensia, then make it another enhancement line under Kensia that they pick up at cost. No freebies for one style over others.

Nope. I do not blame the enhancement system at all for this. If they are guilty of anything, it is to accentuate the inherent mistakes within the core rules.

The real problem is how S&B is designed compared to THF and TWF. Turbine limited Power Attack to +5 and to-hit matter very little. From that point, TWF is obviously going to get much better than bothy THF and S&B. Glancing blows can make up for the difference between THF and TWF if balanced properly.

So, the one being left out and flawed in his concept is S&B.
And ranged fighter kensias.
Yes which is part of what my complaint about it favoring THF too much. Back to the whole flat benefit value to all styles.


You won't see me disagreeing to that... and they have to do something about it.

Let me elaborate more on what I meant by that.

The clear flavor of Kensai is accuracy. Fighter Attack Bonus, Fighter Critical Accuracy and weapon focuses are prereqs; to-hit bonus, bonus to confirming critical hit and greater critical threat range are benefits. The problem with that flavor is that it will automatically flavor TWF over THF.
Unless the benefits from the PrE are specificed to only help the 'main hand' weapon. This keeps TWF in check. While not hurting the other three fighting styles. A two handed weapon, a ranged weapon and a single handed weapon would all be considered being used in their main hand.

Eladrin could have done the enhancement in multiple ways where the enhancement would be more in favor of THF than it currently is, but I cannot think of a single way to do it without getting out of the "accuracy" theme that is expressed by these enhancements. Instead, what he seems to have decided to do is to make a special clause for THF so it isn't penalized.
And it's the added benefits to 2HF that I have issue with, of course. the suggestion that I made just above about making it 'main hand' weapon only would have been a better way to keep TWF in check with out resorting to 'freebies' for another style. (And the 'freebie' extra damage and of extra chances on the special effects of two handed weapon really makes 2HF more attractive, while making S&B Kensia less attractive.)

Of the multiple ways he could have done it to make it more balanced between THF and TWF, S&B would have gained as much in comparison to TWF as it does now.
Here's to hoping he tries reconsiders and possibly switches to the suggestion I've given. *crosses fingers* Think I could bribe him?:)


Original text that Bor's commenting on: Originally Posted by Griphon
I don't believe I am. I see myself as only trying to stop a PrE that as is favors some fighting styles over others.

You can't prevent that from happening nor is it a good thing to stop.

I may not be able to prevent it.. But I certainly think I can and should try. I also see it as a good thing to stop because the PrE in question should not favor any class over an other. It's about Weapon Specialization and being uber cool with that weapon. It's not about styles. Tempest is the 2WF PrE.. There might be a Barbarian PrE that comes out as the THF PrE. Lets not focus this one on ANY style.

What really matters, in the end, is the overall balance. Not the individual parts. Otherwise, you should be complaining about Power Attack.
As I am only working with issues internal to the PrE, I am only looking at the 'overall balance' of the PrE itself. The Goal of the PrE is accuracy and 'damage' with a specialized weapon. No style mentioned or considered, then it should be balanced to give as much benefit to Ranged as it does Two handed .. Which should be the same as it does to Two weapon Fighting.. and all should be balanced with Sword and Board.. No freebies.. Nothing special to any.

One crevate to that last: To the main and required Kensia lines. Optionals to the main kensia line could be added. Examples: The increased chance of 'Special effects'. Or if the 'main hand' restriction is used then an extra (and hopefully expensive) enhancement to give kensia bonuses to offhand weapons.


Here again, the real problem is that ranged sucks. It's not the fault of Kensai. Another thread and another issue, yeah. I know. Poor Range. It could be better with out overpowering.


Replies in Red

[Desteria]

For the record, I have no issue that S&B only get +5 Power Attack. All fighting styles get the same benefit from this Feat. It's a Feat that everybody who meets the requirements can access and get the same benefits from no matter the melee style they use.. I see no problem with the game design of it.

I don't even see a problem with the Barbarian and the Warforged Power Attack enhancement lines. These affect all melee fighting styles equally as well.

So yeah.. Please take attempts at Troll-age else where.


Are you smokign somethign THF and TWF both get a LOT more out opf PA then S&B are we playign the same D&D based game here?

[Desteria]

For the record: THF only gains extra damage from higher damage dice, the str x 1.5 bonus and higher crit multiplers or crit range. Power attack effects all melee fighting styles the same. Power attack is added to the result of the damage dice along with strength damage, but is not multiplied by the 1.5 bit.


Your right it;s not mutiplied buy the 1.5 bit at all......

IT DOES HOWEVER GIVE +10 DAMAGE TO THF!!!!!!!

Adn TWF gets +5 to EACH hand fro +10 total.

Noth both of these are core D&D mechanics.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Edit:
Since it came up in the discussion, the Two Handed Fighting chain of feats has also been changed to increase (from zero) the chance of glancing blows producing magical weapon effects.

My THF paladin salutes you!

Quick questions
1. Since there is a monk flavour to this PrC. Will Unarmed be a kensai choice of weapon?
2. Will we be able to take more than 1 PrC? ie will taking levels in 1 PrC disable the choice of others? (similar to the faith lines paladins and clerics currently get)

[Griphon]

Sorry, but that simply not true.

In the time that S&B gets a bonus of +25.00 damage from Power Attack, THF gets a bonus between 42.70 and +47.19 damage and TWF gets a bonus of 46.63 damage. That is at 16 BAB. If you have BAB of 14 or lower, the ratio will be different and you will also gain more out of Power Attack.

Your critique of this PrE could be applied to PA. If you are OK with PA, there is no reason to not be OK with this PrE.

See.. now you're making my eyes glaze over by using weird numbers. LOL I realize their stats including attack per 'round'.

By definition PA gives each swing +5 attack at the cost of -5 to hit. It is treating each style exactly the same.. That is why I have no issue with Power Attack. That is why I'd have no problem with Kensia if it treated each style exactly the same.

Please remember for the main Kensia PrE I want a -flat benefit value-. +1's and +2's being exactly the same for all fighting styles. No 'freebies' for any fighting styles either (referring to the increased glancing bow specials)

Anything extra should be added as non-required Kensia enhancements.



Calm down. You are the one making snide remarks and accusations now.
Hey I'm allowed a snarky reply once in a while, yeah? *snark*snark*

I didn't call you an idiot, which you are not, I simply said your reaction is too hasty. We can judge the whole until we have seen the whole. We can only look at the design of this PrE and judge whether it is well designed or not. It is. Maybe that when we factor PrE's, feats, spells, gear or enhancements introduced in Module 9.0 I will have negative comments to make about the enhancement. But for now, Eladrin has made a good job one that one.
I am looking at the whole.. the whole PrE as it's been announced by Eladrin. As I've said before I'm only focusing on the imbalances inside this certain PrE. Giving Extra benefits to one fighting style for the same cost is a flaw in the PrE. It has nothing to do with anything else introduced in Mod9.

It makes no sense (to me) for it to have a special 'Freebie' in both +'s and increased glancing blow special triggers for the same cost. So I say it's unbalanced and needs reviewed and perhaps altered.


I might have suggest some slight modification, but nothing of the order you are suggesting. I'll wait to see Defenser and Knight of the Purple Dragon (Couldn't they have chosen a PrC with a more riddiculous name? hehe) before that. Possibly also Tempest II and III.
Oh I'll wait for those as well, and I'll give my review and opinion based on the PrE's individuals again. I'm not comparing this PrE to them, or waiting to hear that they'll be better for say S&B. Those aren't the issues.

And picking on Knight of the Purple Dragon? I can do that! Are there Purple dragons? Is that what you get when you mate a Red dragon with a Blue Dragon? Are we sure it's not the Amethyst dragon? (Which really sounds better). Does a purple dragon lisp when it roars? Is it's breath weapon flower petals and peace signs?


Replies in red.. Jokes in Purple

[Desteria]

I have no issue with THF or TWF outside of this PrE. I realize and agree with the idea that there some inherit things to each fighting style. Examples: 2HF getting more damage from str.
2WF getting more attacks per melee from two weapons.
S&B getting up to 9pts of AC more and shield extras.


Really ARE we playign the same game?

THF gets 1.5 str TWF gets 1.5 str(1x on mian hand 0.5x on off hand), twf get more effetcs like holy etc., in PnP one of the balacing factors to all this is the extra penaltys tWF takes stops them from Power attacking for MORE but DDO has caped PA at 5 all the time, (well once your Bab is above 5 that is), IE in PnP a THF coudl PA for 2 more then a TWF have the same To hit bonus and get 4 more damage....
Now in PnP if both are getitgn a full attack most tWF will STILL distroy a THF BUT here the huge BUT... in PnP actuyl getitng your full attack action is MUCH rarer you have to move more and when BOTH a THF adn TWF get only one attack THF wins in the end it tends to average out that THF does the best damage with the least defense, TWF does almost as much and noramly has better defnese... S&B does less damage, btu not the the same degree as in ddo imo, and hase the beast AC....
Note animated sheilds some times mess this up , (wistles inocently about his dwarven defender that had an animated door er tower sheild and used a great sword ;)

[Desteria]

If you make THF and TWF pay more to gain the benefits, then perhaps 1 weapon should be the default? If you want to use gain the extra benefits the PrE 'could' grant to the other fighting styles you pay more AP to do so. Example: Make Kensia affect only main hand weapon and give a flat value to it. The person wants to be able to get the benefits on his TWFing? He has to purcase the enhancement line that allows it. The person wants to increase the chances of added effects to his glancing blow for his THFer? He purchases the line for it.

Btu what i'm saying is in the big pictuly the tHF IS ALREADY PAYING MORE, hes just not payign more in AP's....

make 3 seperate encments make them have the exact efects they do now they can cost as follows
1 handed: cost 1 AP and you must spend 1 hand to weild a weapon.
2 handed: cost 1 ap and you must spend 2 HANDS to weild a wepon.
TWF: cost 1 AP and you must spend 2 HANDS to weild 2 wepons.

There you go they each have difrent costs the 2 that give same benifit level cost the same and the one that gives less costs less...

[Borror0]

Power Attack gives a base flat line bonus to ALL weapon fighting styles.
It does not. Within the feat's description it even say, and I quote directly from the Compendium "While using a two-handed weapon, you gain double the bonus to damage."

Yes which is part of what my complaint about it favoring THF too much. Back to the whole flat benefit value to all styles.
Anything that improves DPS will nearly always favor TWF over S&B. The only exceptions I can think of are critical threat ranges - only from a DPS point of view, it favors TWF in other ways though - and faster attacking speed. Depending on the bonus, THF can be also favored over S&B. That is because TWF and THF are, by definition, DPS-centric fighting styles. Sure, you can deal DPS via S&B but it is always going to be lesser.

If you think there should be something done to prevent that gap from getting too big, core changes are what has to be suggested. Not changing this PrE.

Flat does not mean equal.

Unless the benefits from the PrE are specificed to only help the 'main hand' weapon. This keeps TWF in check.
It also makes of it a lousy PrE line.

Here's to hoping he tries reconsiders and possibly switches to the suggestion I've given. *crosses fingers* Think I could bribe him?
They couldn't work. The benefits are separated between Two-Handed and One-Handed weapons.

Plus, it makes no sense at all that you can hit harder with a shield in your hands...

No style mentioned or considered, then it should be balanced to give as much benefit to Ranged as it does Two handed
Like Power Attack gives different fighting styles different benefits, there is nothnig wrong with a PrE doing the same.

All that matters, in the end, would be the overall strength of the builds. Who cares if this or that fighting style gets more out of whatever enhancement.

[Griphon]

Edited out because statements were proven to be wrong, as I didn't remember something

[Desteria]

I know it is. It's a sad sad thing too. My first character was a Ranged-Ranger, so it turned out to be a big let down because of the Nerfs to it. I disagree that it can't be made good with out it being made over powering. But this is not the thread for it, I think Aesop has a good thread running about possible improvements to Range.

Ive seen what range getting a good big buff did in EQ, all the rangers were soling insain STUFF, stuff that was sposed to be hard for more then one group....

I really wish i could rebuild in ddo some of my SWEET ranged built fighters/barbs, more STR then DEX and weapon specs etc in PnP it;s a sick combination, you really NEVER miss, even your iteratives, and though each hit is smaller it;s easter to bypass most DR's and they add up very very fast and you always get full attacks that are much rarer for other guys and do ti all from a safe distance.... note my Dwarven defender loved these guiys to as i could cork a hallway basicaly unhittable my selfl while they decimated everything over my head ;) btu sadly IF they buffed ranged to it;s PnP levels really we would see very little else, it would imo be worse then the curent TWF overpoulation.

Btw the onyl reaosn my tHF has not gone TWF logn ago is i need a +5 dex tome first...... I'm really lookign forward to the changes i;ve heard so far as they just might just might make him at least CLOSE to TWF dps, at least fro red names, i'm ok if they wound trash better thats all cool i;d liek to out hurt them DPS fights though, that would be an excelent balace in the end...

[Borror0]

In the time that S&B gets a bonus of +25.00 damage from Power Attack, THF gets a bonus between 42.70 and +47.19 damage and TWF gets a bonus of 46.63 damage. That is at 16 BAB. If you have BAB of 14 or lower, the ratio will be different and you will also gain more out of Power Attack.
A better way to look at it, would be to use S&B as reference 1.

If S&B gains 1.00 from it, THF gains between 1.71 and 1.88 from it. TWF gains 1.86 from Power Attack. At 16 BAB.

[Borror0]

Oh I'll wait for those as well, and I'll give my review and opinion based on the PrE's individuals again. I'm not comparing this PrE to them
But it makes little sense.

You got to look at the whole. If feat A favors more THF and benefits TWF slighty, but then feat B favors TWF back into balance... things are balanced. Perhaps this enhancement is underwhelming to S&B characters. You got to look at the game as a whole. Not simply the PrE in itself, but the whole game and see how it interacts.

[Griphon]

It does not. Within the feat's description it even say, and I quote directly from the Compendium "While using a two-handed weapon, you gain double the bonus to damage." I can admit when I'm wrong. Thanks for correcting me, Borro. Quick question is this a deviation for core DnD, I don't remember it being in there.

Anything that improves DPS will nearly always favor TWF over S&B. The only exceptions I can think of are critical threat ranges - only from a DPS point of view, it favors TWF in other ways though - and faster attacking speed. Depending on the bonus, THF can be also favored over S&B. That is because TWF and THF are, by definition, DPS-centric fighting styles. Sure, you can deal DPS via S&B but it is always going to be lesser.
Understood and agreed with.

If you think there should be something done to prevent that gap from getting too big, core changes are what has to be suggested. Not changing this PrE.
I have already made the suggestion that would keep this gap from widening in my posts, so yes it can be changed by changing the PrE. Or at the very least it keeps the PrE from actively adding to widening the gape.

For the record the suggestion was: Make the base Kensia PrE Enhancement work with only 'main hand' weapons and not 'off hand' weapons.




It also makes of it a lousy PrE line. I do not think that limiting it to the main hand makes it a lousy PrE. (Or I wouldn't have suggested it.) Nor do I think giving a 'freebie' to a fighting style makes the PrE lousy.. I do, however, think it's unfair and shouldn't be put into game as is.

They couldn't work. The benefits are separated between Two-Handed and One-Handed weapons.

Plus, it makes no sense at all that you can hit harder with a shield in your hands...
With it being seperated into Two-handed and One-Handed there is no reason why it couldn't be broken down into 'Main Hand' and 'off hand'. And I do agree that it doesn't really make sense to hit harder with a shield in your hand. And as I've said I'd rather it be the same benefit to all.


Like Power Attack gives different fighting styles different benefits, there is nothnig wrong with a PrE doing the same. As I said I've forgotten that aspect of Power Attack. So I could consider retracting my complaint about the extra +'s envolved, because there is a precedent for it. I, however, still do not agree with the extra chance of 'Speical effect triggers' being added as a 'freebie' to the PrE.

They can remove it from the PrE and add it as an Enhancement line to the actual Feat itself and I'd be totally fine with it. (Like Toughness.)

I have no problem with them trying to make THF better. I just don't think it belongs inside this PrE as a 'freebie' to one fighting style.


All that matters, in the end, would be the overall strength of the builds. Who cares if this or that fighting style gets more out of whatever enhancement.

The funny thing about 'build strengths'... Most of the builds include a certain fighting style.. Tempest build/PrE is automatically going for a 2WF style. Your barbarians builds either go THW or TWF. So.. When you talk builds you are also talking about fighting style.


Replies in Red

[Desteria]

Replies in Red
I can admit when I'm wrong. Thanks for correcting me, Borro. Quick question is this a deviation for core DnD, I don't remember it being in there.


AS I've posted a few times that is a CORE D&D 3.5 mechanic....

[Griphon]

But it makes little sense.

You got to look at the whole. If feat A favors more THF and benefits TWF slighty, but then feat B favors TWF back into balance... things are balanced. Perhaps this enhancement is underwhelming to S&B characters. You got to look at the game as a whole. Not simply the PrE in itself, but the whole game and see how it interacts.

I disagree.
If you look at each part for balane the whole will be balanced.

If you look at game as a whole, it can be balanced but where do you start? You have to start at the core mechanics... As you've said thats part of the nature of the imbalance now. But.. You can't CHANGE those for obvious reasons. (like it'll stop being DnD, yeah?)

If you look at the parts and identify inconsistances, imbalances and the like.. You can correct them with out making drastic changes to the system as a whole.


Stepping back and looking at how the Kensia will interact with the game as a whole:
(obviously my own onion)
I see it helping all fighters who'd take it. I, however, see it disproportionately helping TFH and TWF style fighters. For two reasons: TWF is helped more by the very nature of TWF. THF is helped more by special 'freebies' added to the PrE.

I see two options for Kensia being seeming under powered, and there for predict that it'll only help to increase the cookie cutter syndrome of having Tempest builds and Two Handed fighters. You'll not see many ranged fighters or many S&B fighters. (No comments about who'd want to make a ranged fighter anyway, please. That is not helpful nor the point.)

Do we want all Kensia to be Two Hand fighters and Two Weapon Fighters? If thats the goal then just create a 2Handed PrE, we already have Tempest.

Do we want all Fighters who happen to carry a shield to be 'Defenders' (even though we've not seen it.) If thats the case we'd probably be better off hacking off b its of DDO's customability and making it like WoW with predesignated paths. (Oh wait.. they did that with DnD 4.0. Yuck!)

[Desteria]

Replies in Red
I do not think that limiting it to the main hand makes it a lousy PrE. (Or I wouldn't have suggested it.) Nor do I think giving a 'freebie' to a fighting style makes the PrE lousy.. I do, however, think it's unfair and shouldn't be put into game as is.


IF it cost MORE to get the extra benifits for THF frankly i don't think it woudl be worht it at all, it;s JUST barly JUST barly imo worth the cost now fro a THF or TWF.....

For a S&B i don't think it;s worht it but then on a S&B this is imo NOT the PRC i would take any way IF i cared about cost versbenifit IE if your buildign for power level, a DPS PRC is not what your goign to take on a S&B tank, your goign to take a PRC that enhacese your power level and S&B power is sposed to be AC NOT DPS.
In D&D balace such as there has never bene with in a oprc liek this purty much EVERY PRC avalible is always MUCH better with certen fighting styles and sucks for others this one is a damage dealers PRC a damage dealer is by definition NOT a S&B fighter so it benifiting other fighting styles more is NORMAL D&D.

You want to try and balalance a PRC with in it self with all 'fighting' styles take a wack at exotic weapon master ;) if you don't like this you will LOVE how unbalanced that one is towards certen weapons/fighting stilles.

[Borror0]

Quick question is this a deviation for core DnD, I don't remember it being in there.
Nope. It is the same in PnP.

"If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls." - SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack)

I do not think that limiting it to the main hand makes it a lousy PrE.
Compare it to Tempest I or Warchanter I to see how untrue that is.

I do, however, think it's unfair and shouldn't be put into game as is.
Allow me to be frank and say it is a very narrow-minded way to look at balance.

They are NOT given a freebie. If they were, you would see me saying that it would make overpower THF.

So.. When you talk builds you are also talking about fighting style.
Exactly. That does not even hurt the point I was making Griphon.

You seem to look at this PrE as if all there was about each fighting style was this enhancement. That is not the case as you know. Balance is about being equally powerful while still being different. There is nothing wrong with S&B getting less from this enhancement. For as long as S&B is good in itself, for as long as there are sufficiently enough good S&B builds... there is not the problem you depict.

..and again, S&B DPS builds just cannot work.

[Griphon]

Btu what i'm saying is in the big pictuly the tHF IS ALREADY PAYING MORE, hes just not payign more in AP's....

make 3 seperate encments make them have the exact efects they do now they can cost as follows
1 handed: cost 1 AP and you must spend 1 hand to weild a weapon.
2 handed: cost 1 ap and you must spend 2 HANDS to weild a wepon.
TWF: cost 1 AP and you must spend 2 HANDS to weild 2 wepons.

There you go they each have difrent costs the 2 that give same benifit level cost the same and the one that gives less costs less...

yes they've already paid more.. But they've already gotten more from what they paid.

TWF spend tons of feats on TWF to get better attacks and multiple special affects
THF spend 3 or so feats to get improved Glancing Blows. (kind of lame, but they're getting worked.. Off topic for this trhead
1 handed fighter spends no extra feats, but gets the same benefit options available to the others.

Yes you're paying for THF and TWF in feats.. But you're getting a reward for your payment.

Still doesn't mean they should say oh hey.. Lets give more to the THF just cuz!

[Desteria]

I disagree.
If you look at each part for balane the whole will be balanced.


Thats HOW D&D balaces such as it does balace it balaces as a whole you HAVE to look at the big picture, Power attack for example is horrable unbalaced with in it self; I mean THF and TWF get twice the benifit in PnP of S&B BUT over all that is balaced by S&B getitng to use a sheild OR some other off hand item....
As a note in 3.0 i think it was PA was 1 for 1 for all weapons consiquently NO one USED THF the realyl wasent a benifit to it why sacrifice a HUGE amount of defense for only a very minimal gain, (the 1.5 str thing sicne in PnP str gets no where near there levels it does in DDO it realyl was a minisqule gain). When 3.5 came out the changed PA to work twice as well on 2handed thus suddenly you had a lot more 2hand fighter pop up, but they sacrificed a lot of defense to do this over all there was still a balace point.


Do we want all Kensia to be Two Hand fighters and Two Weapon Fighters? If thats the goal then just create a 2Handed PrE, we already have Tempest.

YES all peopel that take kensi from a power gaming stand point SHOULD be THF or TWF's it's a Damage PRC, if they are S&B and they take kensi the charakter is obviusly NOT built to maximize it's potetial so who casres if i get the most form the class, D&D PRC are like that they are noramly only good FOR one or 2 select styles or build designs, any oen else takign them is takign them for RP resons or to get specal requierments liek class skills a fighter cant get to get in to there REAL prc later.


Do we want all Fighters who happen to carry a shield to be 'Defenders' (even though we've not seen it.) If thats the case we'd probably be better off hacking off b its of DDO's customability and making it like WoW with predesignated paths. (Oh wait.. they did that with DnD 4.0. Yuck!)

YES all Fighters that go S&B and are power gaming it SHOULD go a PRC that is build for defensive characters once agian se above thats teh natue of D&D PRC's. Do all S&B have to go defenders no lots wont because they will chose somethign else because they don't care about min/maxign or they want another one for RP reasons.


D&D has never tryed to balace on the small scale they have tryed to balace over the big picture how well they did if up to you, but thats the way ti has always been.



P.S. Withe martial handbook for 4th ed there are a lot more options, then before nothing like 3.5 but then you have a lot more pths and ways to alter them for at leats teh matial characters now.

[Borror0]

If you look at each part for balane the whole will be balanced.
False. If you look at the whole for balance, the part will be identical. Not balanced.

As you've said thats part of the nature of the imbalance now. But.. You can't CHANGE those for obvious reasons.
Depending what you mean, you are right or totally wrong.

You can easily make S&B gain more out of Kensai through core changes. However, you are right that S&B DPS builds are forever doomed whatever you do about it, unless you create illogical modifications to make them better than what they currently are.

You'll not see many ranged fighters or many S&B fighters.
It would be unfair to blame Kensai for either of these.

Do we want all Kensia to be Two Hand fighters and Two Weapon Fighters? If thats the goal then just create a 2Handed PrE, we already have Tempest.
There are less benefits in it for S&B characters than TWF or THF characters.

Just because it is less attractive to S&B characters it does not mean it is unattractive to them. You are mixing the two.

[Griphon]

IF it cost MORE to get the extra benifits for THF frankly i don't think it woudl be worht it at all, it;s JUST barly JUST barly imo worth the cost now fro a THF or TWF.....

Perhaps not 'worth it' for the 2HFers who no longer got something 'more' than the rest. (meaning the increased Chance of Glancing Blow Specials.. I really should come up with an acronym for it to speed it up. One handed fighters could still be attracted... Are you saying that with out the special 'freebies' to 2HF the PrE isn't attractive? If so then it's obviously underpowered for those that don't get the 'special freebies'.

(which is what you said below.. Duh)


For a S&B i don't think it;s worht it but then on a S&B this is imo NOT the PRC i would take any way IF i cared about cost versbenifit IE if your buildign for power level, a DPS PRC is not what your goign to take on a S&B tank, your goign to take a PRC that enhacese your power level and S&B power is sposed to be AC NOT DPS.
In D&D balace such as there has never bene with in a oprc liek this purty much EVERY PRC avalible is always MUCH better with certen fighting styles and sucks for others this one is a damage dealers PRC a damage dealer is by definition NOT a S&B fighter so it benifiting other fighting styles more is NORMAL D&D.

.. first I have no clue what versebenifit means... or even if it's a word. o.O.. Not picking or what ever.. Just confused.

However, it seems to me your saying that this wouldn't be attractive to somebody who uses a S&B... First off let me say not all fighters who use a S&B are there for the uber AC idea. (which we know fails, right?) Some tactical fighters carry a shield ans specialize in a single weapon like Kopesh. These types of characters would see the PrE attractive linked with the Weapon Specialization they've used for increased damage and hit.

When ever I've used 'S&B' I've tried to make it clear that said individual isn't always going for AC. So please don't think 'oh he must be an AC tank.'

So there are more to S&B fighters than just 'possible ac'.. or 'possible dps'.



You want to try and balalance a PRC with in it self with all 'fighting' styles take a wack at exotic weapon master ;) if you don't like this you will LOVE how unbalanced that one is towards certen weapons/fighting stilles.

Exotic Weapon Master's idea was basically being proficient in mutlple exotic weapons and maximizing their usage.. Thought it was way wacked if I remember right.

I'd have rather this followed the idea of the old 'Weapon master' from 3.0 myself. Higher damage capacity via the crit range and multipler.... I feel like it fits in with the 'Barbarian Rage' nicely. But -maybe- their changing that ungodly enhancement. I can only hope.

I'd have also rather it been a crit multiper added at stage 3 instead of Crit range addition. But that really has nothing to do with my complaints or the price of tea in china, right? :)

[Desteria]

Originally Posted by Griphon
If thats the goal then just create a 2Handed PrE, we already have Tempest.

Yes but untill fighters can TAKE tempest kensi woudl be a good thf or twf prc for them.

I liek the idea of Dirfent prcs getitng the same style to the same place difrent ways IE a twf ranger takes tempest getts attack speed and thus deals more damage
A twf fighter takes Kensigets +damage/crit damage and thus deals more Hopefully similarly more damage, now you have 2 ways to get to the same end for teh same fightign style each are balaced each are difrent....

For S&B you don;t look at damage and say they shoudl have the damage of THF or even get the same benifit from kensi lets be honest WHAT THF will take a prc that gives AC bonnus it woudl be totaly unballced becuase of the d20 a THF getting +10 AC would mean he gets hit lets be generus 5% less... ;)
A S&B takes same PRC that +10 ac is goign to mean 50% less getitng hit it;s an absolute value BUT is it balanced no not really but does that matter NO why beacsue THF is not a defender style if a tHF wants to go defender they are already saying hey I'm not going to be good at this but i just want it anyway becasue it;s COOL.
Same thign for kensi S7B can takit sayign hey this isent as good for me but i just want it because it's cool.

[Desteria]

[COLOR="Red"].. first I have no clue what versebenifit means... or even if it's a word. o.O.. Not picking or what ever.. Just confused.
COLOR]

Cost verse benifit ok i forgot one space shoot me!

[Griphon]

False. If you look at the whole for balance, the part will be identical. Not balanced. Again disagree.. But I'll agree to disagree.

Depending what you mean, you are right or totally wrong. I mean you can't change base game concepts from the d20 or it stops being d20. Things like the multiple hits per 'round' of a TWFer. Or 1.5 str modifier to gain more DPS from using two handers. Those are core ideas. Since you can use enhancements, you can do things like increase the str multiplier and still be in the spirit of it.. but you couldn't reduce the number of attacks per round, or reduce the str modifier.

You can easily make S&B gain more out of Kensai through core changes. However, you are right that S&B DPS builds are forever doomed whatever you do about it, unless you create illogical modifications to make them better than what they currently are.


There are less benefits in it for S&B characters than TWF or THF characters.

Just because it is less attractive to S&B characters it does not mean it is unattractive to them. You are mixing the two.
I'll agree that there are less. ;) But then can you honestly say there is enough to make them look attractive to the a S&B or rangered fighter aside from it being the 'only way' to increase his DPS?

If it's going to be that way for two of the 4 styles.. Actually 3 of the 4 styles since it only increases the DPS of TWF, then it should be that way for all. (This is against he idea of increased 'special triggers'.


See red

[Borror0]

When ever I've used 'S&B' I've tried to make it clear that said individual isn't always going for AC. So please don't think 'oh he must be an AC tank.'
I know, but if he does that... he will be gimped.

Gimped compared to an intimitank. Gimped compared to a TWF with similar AC and wat better DPS. Gimped compared to a THF with way better DPS.

[Desteria]

[COLOR="Red"] When ever I've used 'S&B' I've tried to make it clear that said individual isn't always going for AC. So please don't think 'oh he must be an AC tank.'
COLOR]

if he isent going for AC and is useing a sheild he obviusly is Not min/maxing there for won't care that THF gets a little more out of it, hell be happy to get his bonus.
I'm not saying he MUST be an AC tank i'm saying if hes some one that REALLY cares about the cost vrerse benifit of the enchments/build etc then HE is an AC tank, and there for wont take kensi because he will be takign the once that focuse on his fortay...

Note: I say this form the perspective of a THF that MAY just TAKE the defender one because it fits my concept better however I also power game sooo it's goign to be a close call, but then my fighter has alwasy gone both ways, he cna get near MAX S&B AC while getting MAX THF dps, (obviusly NOT at exacly the same time ;) )

And for the example of a tactics fighter IF your a tacktics fighter and your not goign fro AC *** do you have a sheild at all grab a 2hander and use that, get more damage at ZERO lose to your self and suddenly kensi gives you more, IF you say why i have that sheild becasue it gives me GFL then the answer is simple that COST of one hand WAS worth it over the bigger bonuses for you form kensi....

[Griphon]

Thats HOW D&D balaces such as it does balace it balaces as a whole you HAVE to look at the big picture, Power attack for example is horrable unbalaced with in it self; I mean THF and TWF get twice the benifit in PnP of S&B BUT over all that is balaced by S&B getitng to use a sheild OR some other off hand item....
As a note in 3.0 i think it was PA was 1 for 1 for all weapons consiquently NO one USED THF the realyl wasent a benifit to it why sacrifice a HUGE amount of defense for only a very minimal gain, (the 1.5 str thing sicne in PnP str gets no where near there levels it does in DDO it realyl was a minisqule gain). When 3.5 came out the changed PA to work twice as well on 2handed thus suddenly you had a lot more 2hand fighter pop up, but they sacrificed a lot of defense to do this over all there was still a balace point.
Thank you that explains why I wasn't that familiar with the extra damage from PA for 2handed weapons. I only had a gaming group during the breif era of 3.0. So I guess I'm a little foggy on the 3.5 stuff. (And very foggy on 4.0)



YES all peopel that take kensi from a power gaming stand point SHOULD be THF or TWF's it's a Damage PRC, if they are S&B and they take kensi the charakter is obviusly NOT built to maximize it's potetial so who casres if i get the most form the class, D&D PRC are like that they are noramly only good FOR one or 2 select styles or build designs, any oen else takign them is takign them for RP resons or to get specal requierments liek class skills a fighter cant get to get in to there REAL prc later.

YES all Fighters that go S&B and are power gaming it SHOULD go a PRC that is build for defensive characters once agian se above thats teh natue of D&D PRC's. Do all S&B have to go defenders no lots wont because they will chose somethign else because they don't care about min/maxign or they want another one for RP reasons.

This is exactly an idea that I'm against. It shouldn't be though of in 'power gamer' thought. That means it's imbalanced to begin with if you get my drift. The game should not be designed towards Power gamers.


P.S. Withe martial handbook for 4th ed there are a lot more options, then before nothing like 3.5 but then you have a lot more pths and ways to alter them for at leats teh matial characters now.

I've got the core books for 4.0. I've read through them and don't like the changes they made to the game. It's too... uh.. restrictive? I dunno. You start as a wizard and you get to select a FEW abilities. boring!

[Griphon]

Cost verse benifit ok i forgot one space shoot me!
You left out one space, and I think i skipped over one whole word as I was reading it.

[Borror0]

I mean you can't change base game concepts from the d20 or it stops being d20. Things like the multiple hits per 'round' of a TWFer. Or 1.5 str modifier to gain more DPS from using two handers. Those are core ideas. Since you can use enhancements, you can do things like increase the str multiplier and still be in the spirit of it.. but you couldn't reduce the number of attacks per round, or reduce the str modifier.
You can address that issue without modifying what you have mentioned...

I'll agree that there are less. But then can you honestly say there is enough to make them look attractive to the a S&B or rangered fighter aside from it being the 'only way' to increase his DPS?
Do you agree that if it's the best PrE for a ranged fighter, he will take it?

Ignore, for now, the fact that there is absolutely no reason to roll a ranged fighters. Instead, imagine that by taking this enhancement, ranged fighters are balanced in comparison to all three other fighting styles. You see no more threads asking to buff ranged combat, nor is TWF, THF or S&B overpowered/underpowered. In that situation, does it really matter who gains most of out it?

If you answered yes to the first question and no to the second, you will see my point.

[Desteria]

I've got the core books for 4.0. I've read through them and don't like the changes they made to the game. It's too... uh.. restrictive? I dunno. You start as a wizard and you get to select a FEW abilities. boring!

I won't say i don't agree with you here, I love wizzards in PnP I still like then in 4th compared to others, BUT I miss my 3.5 versitility, but that a whole nother topic.

[Griphon]

Yes but untill fighters can TAKE tempest kensi woudl be a good thf or twf prc for them.

But, Desteria.. advancing two weapon or 2H fighting isn't the GOAL of this PrE. Like I said if thats what they really want they should create a PrE to do that.


I liek the idea of Dirfent prcs getitng the same style to the same place difrent ways IE a twf ranger takes tempest getts attack speed and thus deals more damage
A twf fighter takes Kensigets +damage/crit damage and thus deals more Hopefully similarly more damage, now you have 2 ways to get to the same end for teh same fightign style each are balaced each are difrent....

I'd rather they did PrCs instead of PrEs. PrE's always seemed like a half baked attempt to me.

For S&B you don;t look at damage and say they shoudl have the damage of THF or even get the same benifit from kensi lets be honest WHAT THF will take a prc that gives AC bonnus it woudl be totaly unballced becuase of the d20 a THF getting +10 AC would mean he gets hit lets be generus 5% less... ;)
A S&B takes same PRC that +10 ac is goign to mean 50% less getitng hit it;s an absolute value BUT is it balanced no not really but does that matter NO why beacsue THF is not a defender style if a tHF wants to go defender they are already saying hey I'm not going to be good at this but i just want it anyway becasue it;s COOL.
Same thign for kensi S7B can takit sayign hey this isent as good for me but i just want it because it's cool.

No you don't expect a 1weapon fighter to dish out the DPS of a THF and a TWF. (This has been addressed already.)
However it's it not unreasonable to want to get the same bonus from the exact same AP costs.

No freebies. No extras. That is what I'm calling for.
And as I've said before.. If they want kensia to have an increased chance of 'Glancing Blow Triggers' they can add it as another enhancement.

[Griphon]

You can address that issue without modifying what you have mentioned...


Ok. Show me how? And remember to keep it in spirit with the the concept of DnD 2HF and 2WFing.

Do you agree that if it's the best PrE for a ranged fighter, he will take it?
Yes. If it's the best PrE for a ranged fighter the average Joe will take it.

Ignore, for now, the fact that there is absolutely no reason to roll a ranged fighters. Instead, imagine that by taking this enhancement, ranged fighters are balanced in comparison to all three other fighting styles. You see no more threads asking to buff ranged combat, nor is TWF, THF or S&B overpowered/underpowered. In that situation, does it really matter who gains most of out it?

Does it really matter who gained the most? Yes. Because if I understand correctly you outlined that all the methods of fighting were well balanced. Then if somebody did gain something else quite possibly you trashed the balance.

If you answered yes to the first question and no to the second, you will see my point.
I didn't. And I don't. :( Which I think is boiling down to the main points of disagreements between us... I'm not cool with the idea of a certain type of character gaining more than another type when buying the same enhancement for the same cost.

You, on the other hand, seem to have no problem with it.


Red again.

(Man, I'm at work, maybe I should actually.. ya know.. do my own work? Neyah!)

[Borror0]

But, Desteria.. advancing two weapon or 2H fighting isn't the GOAL of this PrE. Like I said if thats what they really want they should create a PrE to do that.
It's not because it is not the main goal that is undesirable.

I'd rather they did PrCs instead of PrEs. PrE's always seemed like a half baked attempt to me.
They already said they will also do PrC.

I personally love the PrE. I simply dislike that they are restricted by class.

[Borror0]

Ok. Show me how? And remember to keep it in spirit with the the concept of DnD 2HF and 2WFing.
The idea is not to touch two-weapon fighting nor two-handed fighting, but rather S&B and ranged.

I won't touch ranged as I am not an expert in that area. I'll leave that to Turial and Aesop. They have good suggestions on how to improve ranged combat. If you are interested in how they would do it, just do a quick research on them. However, regarding S&B there are a couple of ways to do it. So far, the best I have seen would be adding shield bashing hooks.

More thoughts could be put into this. But you got to attack the problem at the root. Not on the surface.

As we say here, you can't build an house on rotten foundations.

EDIT:

Does it really matter who gained the most? Yes. Because if I understand correctly you outlined that all the methods of fighting were well balanced. Then if somebody did gain something else quite possibly you trashed the balance.
You didn't understand it properly. (Not your fault, it was weirdly stated.)

It is balanced AFTER he picks it up.

I'm not cool with the idea of a certain type of character gaining more than another type when buying the same enhancement for the same cost.

You, on the other hand, seem to have no problem with it.
Of course I don't!

All I care is if fighting styles are balanced. If there are plenty of valid build options. I couldn't care if John Smith gains more of that enhancement than I will. All I care is if he is more powerful than I am. He ain't, then why should I complain at all? I rock, he rocks. Everything is fine. We just drew our power from different sources.

[Griphon]

It's not because it is not the main goal that is undesirable.

No but it not being the main goal and having something added to it means it's extra. If something is 'extra' and is of considerable advantage to one type of user, then it can possibly be unbalancing against the other types.

Also if something is 'extra' and is of considerable advantage to one type of user, and it's free?

More than likely it is unbalanced.
(again my opinion.)



They already said they will also do PrC. The rate of advancement of the system and the speed of which they've got them out by now lead me to believe I'll be a little old greyhaired man by the time they do. *shakes a cane*

I personally love the PrE. I simply dislike that they are restricted by class.

Same here.. Well on some it makes sense.. You wouldn't want a Spell Singer ability on like.. a cleric would you? :) Tempest should be open, and some of the others. They made Arcane Archer open by a race.. so yah.. CRAZY logic.

[Borror0]

If something is 'extra' and is of considerable advantage to one type of user, then it can possibly be unbalancing against the other types.
It could be. But it is not.

For example, Power Attacks favors THF but TWF is still better for DPS.

You wouldn't want a Spell Singer ability on like.. a cleric would you?
There could be other prereqs. ;)

PS: Poor Eladrin having to go through so many pages. :P

[Desteria]

All I care is if fighting styles are balanced. If there are plenty of valid build options. I couldn't care if John Smith gains more of that enhancement than I will. All I care is if he is more powerful than I am. He ain't, then why should I complain at all? I rock, he rocks. Everything is fine. We just drew our power from different sources.

here here that is the core of what D&D should be, Now when you start comparing fighters to wizard to clerics etc your hopelessly lost on HOW to ever say they are balaced but that not really what we are lookign at we are lookign at fighter 1 fighter 2 and fighter3 being balanced with each ohter and other peopel that do basicaly the same job :)

[Griphon]

The idea is not to touch two-weapon fighting nor two-handed fighting, but rather S&B and ranged.

I won't touch ranged as I am not an expert in that area. I'll leave that to Turial and Aesop. They have good suggestions on how to improve ranged combat. If you are interested in how they would do it, just do a quick research on them. However, regarding S&B there are a couple of ways to do it. So far, the best I have seen would be adding shield bashing hooks. Yes I've read that in a different thread before. It'd also give that silly flaming shield something useful to do.


It is balanced AFTER he picks it up.
Okay.. Was it unbalanced before he picked it up? And balanced after he picked it up, or at least something that looked more balanced across all 4 types?
Then I couldn't complain..

However, wasn't the very similar as to what I was had suggested in that certain styles get certain benefits to better bring them in balance? Something you said you couldn't get behind?


Of course I don't!
See? I do! I consider it part of a balanced system. We'll have to agree to disagree on this... Maybe see below.


All I care is if fighting styles are balanced. If there are plenty of valid build options. I couldn't care if John Smith gains more of that enhancement than I will. All I care is if he is more powerful than I am. He ain't, then why should I complain at all? I rock, he rocks. Everything is fine. We just drew our power from different sources.

Fighting styles aren't balanced. We've both seem to have agreed on this. There aren't plenty of valid build options because of the imbalance.(My opinion again.)

Group X gaining more from an enhancement that groups A B and C isn't as much of an issue if at the end the groups are in balance of some sort.

I, however, don't see this happening with the current Kensia PrE. Groups X gets a benefit that puts it up there with Group A.. however Groups B and C are still straggling to break even.

And while it actually goes beyond the PrE into various classes.. There is no reason not to say: Hey. This isn't balanced from the start, so lets alter it.





Red again

[Griphon]

Anyway

I think we're hitting the point that we've had to stop beating the dead horse and had to bring it back as an Undead Horse to keep going.

Hopefully some points where brought up that help with the final product. :)

FEAR the Horse Lich!

[Borror0]

Fighting styles aren't balanced. We've both seem to have agreed on this. There aren't plenty of valid build options because of the imbalance.
They are, but that is the real problem.

Don't say "Kensai favors those two fighting style. It shouldn't." because that, in itself, isn't a problem. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the fact that this or that favors it. You got to look at the outcome. If you conclude that "Kensai overpowers THF fighters" then you can judge that it should be toned down.

S&B and ranged being underpowered is a totally different issue.

[BlackSteel]

wouldnt the increased glancing blows help alot of S&B'ers anyway? Most of the ones I know , while they do use a shield quite often, either break out twf or thf when they feel like doing more damage. The enhancement gives equal benefit to everyone, because you can choose what weapons to weild at any given moment.

I'm really happy to see a damage enhancement (buff) that scales with two handed weapons. If more things did, there wouldnt be such a large disparity in opinion between the fighting styles.

Saw feat investment brought up several times, the feat investment for either line is 3 deep. They're the same, and while one almost doubles your damage (would be double if it werent for .5 str on offhand) the other line only gives a 1.3x benefit.

I do fear that adding effects, while nifty and will help a tiny bit on stat damaging (if stat damage works with glancing blows, thats something I didnt use back when the line was temporarily broken), is not going to put the fighting styles on par for damage per feat. Its going to jump it up maybe another 10% with a shroud weapon if it hits on every glancing blow. The biggest change that could be made to THF is to introduce improved power attack OR allow glancing blows on every attack. Just have the vertical swings only produce glancing blows on the target who receives the original blow.

[Desteria]

Alright back at work, with tiem to waste, now to get caught up on what i missed and bump this to the top for hopefully for more entertainment in an other wise boring night shift.

[Cold_Stele]

This thread makes my eyes bleed - did it really get to 11 pages with this stuff?

@ Griphon - this is a DPS PrE. S&B is not a DPS build - they will have TWO other PrE's to choose from to find the one best suited for them. Kensai makes as much as sense for S&B as does it does taking Tempest on a ranged Ranger without Wpn Finesse and IC (Pierce) - absolutely none at all. Move on please...

Even with Kensai TWF will still out DPS THF. As stated TWF get Bard buffs for each hand (+7 max?), Wpn Spec and Ftr's Wpn Spec for each hand (+6 total) and elemental damage for each hand etc, etc.

Taking the elemental damage alone, splash damage would have to be 100% chance on all 5 swings (not just 2 as it is now) to give equal DPS on a single target. THF still cannot match the other parts of the equation.

THF will NOT be overpowered.

It is a nice move towards restoring balance however...

[bobbryan2]

Kensai makes as much as sense for S&B as does it does taking Tempest on a ranged Ranger without Wpn Finesse and IC (Pierce) - absolutely none at all. Move on please...

Why would you take Wpn Finesse on a Tempest Ranger.

:)

[Griphon]

This thread makes my eyes bleed - did it really get to 11 pages with this stuff? Geeze.. You really read it all? I mean I only red like half by only having to read what other people wrote... And I was bored at work. Geeze...

@ Griphon - this is a DPS PrE. S&B is not a DPS build - they will have TWO other PrE's to choose from to find the one best suited for them. Kensai makes as much as sense for S&B as does it does taking Tempest on a ranged Ranger without Wpn Finesse and IC (Pierce) - absolutely none at all. Move on please...Not denying the intent of the PrE to increase DPS. No brainer. Everything else I disagree with. DnD is about choices and possibilities. Saying that 'oh well.. Anybody who uses a S&B concept doesn't do the DPS and shouldn't take this PrE.. Well thats kinda lame... No very Lame. But thanks for sharing your limited opinion.

Even with Kensai TWF will still out DPS THF. As stated TWF get Bard buffs for each hand (+7 max?), Wpn Spec and Ftr's Wpn Spec for each hand (+6 total) and elemental damage for each hand etc, etc. Agreed. Wasn't the point of the entire line, nor my orginal complaint. Kthnxbye.

How ever the fact that everybody focuses straight in on how it hypes up TWF should really clue in the Devs to look it.

Also again I'll point WAY back to my suggestion to making Kensia's bonuses to effect the MAIN weapon hand. This doesn't keep it from helping TWF, but it does keep it from further making it extreme uber.

Taking the elemental damage alone, splash damage would have to be 100% chance on all 5 swings (not just 2 as it is now) to give equal DPS on a single target. THF still cannot match the other parts of the equation.

THF will NOT be overpowered. Never said it was. (Did you really read my complaints?) The complaint was: It favors THF (and by default TWF) more so than it does the S&B and Range Kensia possibilities.. For the same cost in APs. This is unfair and unbalanced for the S&B and Ranged Kensia options... Unfair options limit the choices... and helps with the whole 'cookie cutter' thats been growing.

It is a nice move towards restoring balance however... ONLY for THF.. If they want to restore balance to just one. Fine, so be it. BUT create a PrE specifically for THF... And not try to 'hide' it under a PrE that is supposed to help -anybody- who's invested AP and Feats into Weapon Specialization.

Replies in Red.

You know. I've always been pretty much a Lurker on the Forums. I've probably tripled my post count with this thread alone!

[Griphon]

Why would you take Wpn Finesse on a Tempest Ranger.

:)

I dunno
A rapier wielding Barbarian Tempest build would be scary. 6 Ranger 14 Barbarian...(Under the current Enchancements.)

Maybe somebody would take Weapon Finesse.. Less in Str, more in Dex.. As well as go that whole 'Uber AC Robe Wearer' by picking up all those Dodge bonus items.

But they'll probably be changing that up.

[Borror0]

Unfair options limit the choices... and helps with the whole 'cookie cutter' thats been growing.
That is totally false.

Unfairness greats choices. If everything would be equal, it would be at a the same. While balance is important, it is good that each fighting style gains differently from what they encounter. Is it unfair that TWF gains more from that? Only if it overpowers them in the end.

ONLY for THF.. If they want to restore balance to just one. Fine, so be it. BUT create a PrE specifically for THF... And not try to 'hide' it under a PrE that is supposed to help -anybody- who's invested AP and Feats into Weapon Specialization.
It's not more evil than Power Attack or Weapon Specialization.

The bias is always going one side. It's only a matter of what you choose. It helps everyone who picks WS. Just not equally and that can be fine.

[Griphon]

That is totally false.

Unfairness greats choices. If everything would be equal, it would be at a the same. While balance is important, it is good that each fighting style gains differently from what they encounter. Is it unfair that TWF gains more from that? Only if it overpowers them in the end.

Your opinion. Not proven fact. Soooo... You can't actually say it's false and be correct.. You can say you disagree and give your reasons why.

It's not more evil than Power Attack or Weapon Specialization. Dead Horse.. Dead horse.. BEAT It!:) But yeah.. since I was using the old 3.0 understanding of PA, I couldn't see the connection you were trying to make (And made several pages back, I might add.)

Weapon Specialization does only give a flat bonus to all weapons and fighting styles. (I just dug out the 3.5 books to check!) So there is no connection there, eh?

The bias is always going one side. It's only a matter of what you choose. It helps everyone who picks WS. Just not equally and that can be fine.
Unless steps are taken before implementation to keep it from being biased... I've made the suggestions I believe would keep it from being biased.. No sense in beatting that dead horse again though.


Dead Horse Comments in Red

[BlackSteel]

dont think he meant that weapon spec is biased in its wording, more like its biased in its actual mechanics due to how the weapon lines work. B/c weapon spec essentially gives the twf +4 damage instead of +2. Whereas power attack is the opposite, but will actually say it in its description. No need to pull out the handbook to realize that.

[Desteria]

dont think he meant that weapon spec is biased in its wording, more like its biased in its actual mechanics due to how the weapon lines work. B/c weapon spec essentially gives the twf +4 damage instead of +2. Whereas power attack is the opposite, but will actually say it in its description. No need to pull out the handbook to realize that.

Aye you could say WS is biest towards 1 hand or tWF in ddo not becasue of WS mecanics but because of game mechanics primarly both hit more often theh THF, because THF animation are slower then 1hand fighting and TWF well they got 2 of em hitting people ;)


And woohoo the thred is heating up again the last 6hr;s have bene boooooorrrrrrriiiinnnnggggggg, at least youtube wow videos were a little entertaining.

[Borror0]

Your opinion. Not proven fact. Soooo... You can't actually say it's false and be correct..
Sorry to say that, but it is a fact.

Is it fair that Sorcerer gain more out of Cha than a rogue?
Is it fair that Wizards got a such a lousy BAB?
Is it fair that Clerics got a 3/4 BAB while being a full class spellcaster?
Is it fair that Rogues can deal so much DPS with their sneak attack?
Is it fair that Fighters get more feats than other classes?
Is it fair that Monks loose some their abilities if uncentered?

No it's not!

However, that creates choice.

So there is no connection there, eh?
TWF gains more out of it than THF.

Unless steps are taken before implementation to keep it from being biased... I've made the suggestions I believe would keep it from being biased..
You missed the point. Biased does not equal bad.

[Desteria]

Dead Horse Comments in Red
Your opinion. Not proven fact. Soooo... You can't actually say it's false and be correct.. You can say you disagree and give your reasons why.

Your opinion. Not proven fact.

It's your opinion that it's onyl his opinionand not proven fact I personaly feel it fits the sientific definetion of fact based on the amount of past experiance I've sene in various mmo's and D&D in general, and the number of other scientists(mmo players etc) that would agree with him.

hehe

[Borror0]

Your opinion. Not proven fact.

It's your opinion that it's onyl his opinionand not proven fact I personaly feel it fits the sientific definetion of fact based on the amount of past experiance I've sene in various mmo's and D&D in general, and the number of other scientists(mmo players etc) that would agree with him.
Smartass! ;)

[Desteria]

Smartass! ;)

whenever possible ;) much better then being a dumbass! and haveing Red put his foot up my @$$! (that 70's show reference for those wonerign WhoTF Red is.)

[Griphon]

Your opinion. Not proven fact.

It's your opinion that it's onyl his opinionand not proven fact I personaly feel it fits the sientific definetion of fact based on the amount of past experiance I've sene in various mmo's and D&D in general, and the number of other scientists(mmo players etc) that would agree with him.

hehe

You got me to laugh, yah. :)

But my point is.. Until he can prove it. It is just his opinion. Just simply shouting FALSE doesn't make it so. If he could give me solid proof, or numbers like he's done in the past, I'd have agreed.

[Emili]

I heard them hint at this before. I have very mixed feelings regarding a change to tempest. Alot of players have built characters with 6 levels of ranger and then to nerf that out is very harsh. Hah, I for instance am leveling up a rogue with 6 ranger levels. It is rough to suddenly alter players' builds that have been out there a long time, although mine has not been. Some people made chars almost a year ago with just 6 level of ranger or so. I would rather tempest 1,2, 3 not change tempest 1, but other classes get similar power points. As long as the mobs at end game make any sense at all this if it were like this it would be the preferred option in my opinion.

I do not know I have mixed feelings the other way... it seems to me front loading the PrC only serves to limit the usefulness of a class in it's higher level ends... there should be comparable useful gain in a class beyond the initial levels, thus allowing a 14th lvl ranger to be more ranger then a 6th lvl ranger/8th? The tiers should be met with equal relative gains. if anything I am more disappointed in Turbines loftiness it implementing a PrC within the lower ends without planing the entire 20th level design - this has more to do with the situation you describe above. This is why older characters are sometimes shelved, rerolled or left for dead in cancelled accounts.

[Griphon]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griphon
Your opinion. Not proven fact. Soooo... You can't actually say it's false and be correct..
Sorry to say that, but it is a fact.Still your opinion until you can prove it.

Is it fair that Sorcerer gain more out of Cha than a rogue?
Is it fair that Wizards got a such a lousy BAB?
Is it fair that Clerics got a 3/4 BAB while being a full class spellcaster?
Is it fair that Rogues can deal so much DPS with their sneak attack?
Is it fair that Fighters get more feats than other classes?
Is it fair that Monks loose some their abilities if uncentered?

No it's not!

However, that creates choice.
Man. You'll just reach out into anywhere and pull in some totally unrelated stuff to try and make your point. (Are you an American Politician?)

Anyway, let me say.. The innate variations and differences in CLASS has nothing to do with the argument. I -get- that you are trying to show the balance by class concept. And maybe try to make some thread bare connection to the concept of their differences being an example as to why you think it's balanced and fair... I really do. But seeing how this 'issue' is involving a single class, I fail to see the relevance to the discussion at hand. The classes all have their balance system into them considering skills, saves, hit points, magic use, etc... All of which are the same base for all Kensia. (Excluding multiclass ones.)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Griphon View Post
So there is no connection there, eh?
TWF gains more out of it than THF.
I think this had to do with Weapon Specialization.... Which you've brought up for no appearent reason. I've said before: I have no qualms or issues with flat based 'bonus' or even feats... It's only those people who cry it's too unbalancing towards the TWFers who cry afoul with it.

(Besides, I can't say I see many two weapon fighting Kensia when Tempest has better benies for TWFers.)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Griphon View Post
Unless steps are taken before implementation to keep it from being biased... I've made the suggestions I believe would keep it from being biased..

You missed the point. Biased does not equal bad.

Your Opinion. In my opinion, it does. Bias towards 1 (or 2) types out of a total 4 types of people able to select the PrE is bad. Especially when they're paying the same cost. I can readily view the advantage of PA to 2handers being OK cuz it's 3.5 cannon (So sayeth the DnD Gods, so sayeth the Flock.) I think the added benefits to 2Handers inside the PrE shouldn't go through.


Originals in Green.
Replies in Red.

[Borror0]

I -get- that you are trying to show the balance by class concept. [...] But seeing how this 'issue' is involving a single class, I fail to see the relevance to the discussion at hand. The classes all have their balance system into them considering skills, saves, hit points, magic use, etc... All of which are the same base for all Kensia.
My point was the following:
"If all classes had the same BAB, same HD, had access to the same skills, gained equally from every feat, has access to the same spells, has as many spell slot and spell per day, gained equally from Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis and Cha... they would be the exact same thing."

Like classes, there is nothing wrong from fighting styles to gain differently from an enhancement for as long as they are balanced.

I've said before: I have no qualms or issues with flat based 'bonus' or even feats...
Why don't you? It's biased as well. Why is it any different?

[maddmatt70]

I do not know I have mixed feelings the other way... it seems to me front loading the PrC only serves to limit the usefulness of a class in it's higher level ends... there should be comparable useful gain in a class beyond the initial levels, thus allowing a 14th lvl ranger to be more ranger then a 6th lvl ranger/8th? The tiers should be met with equal relative gains. if anything I am more disappointed in Turbines loftiness it implementing a PrC within the lower ends without planing the entire 20th level design - this has more to do with the situation you describe above. This is why older characters are sometimes shelved, rerolled or left for dead in cancelled accounts.

I have sympathy for players who made characters based on existing information that was around over a year ago and then to find those characters nerfed because it is "not the way Turbine decides it should go now" is rough. I mean imagine spending over a year gearing up a character only to find you should have gone 12 ranger levels instead of 6 because now the attack speed boost is at level 12.. I mean that would hurt. I hope that Tempest 1 retains at least 5% attack speed and 1 ac because anything less would just really make folks angry.

Regarding how it should be implemented. I favor the best two build points being 6 levels and 18 levels of a class. I want to encourage both the extreme multiclassers and the purists to keep playing this game. It now is starting to look like every build might eventually best be served being 18 levels of something. That is pretty boring if you ask me. In D&D (3.5) there are alot of examples of prestige classes which are great to just take 2 levels in it as well as prestige classes that are great to take 10 levels in it(I don't know the paths of 4.0 as well as 3.5 prestige classes), but it seems like in 3.5 they wanted to give people the option of multiclassing. DDO should be the same.

[Eladrin]

1. Since there is a monk flavour to this PrC. Will Unarmed be a kensai choice of weapon?
2. Will we be able to take more than 1 PrC? ie will taking levels in 1 PrC disable the choice of others? (similar to the faith lines paladins and clerics currently get)
"Unarmed" is an available option for the Kensai.

The standard rules for Prestige Enhnancements apply - one from each class. Yes, Kensai / Tempest is also possible, but you may want to see what the Fighter Capstone enhancement is before deciding that's what you want to do.

On a side note, this many pages of giant blocks of red text are really hard to read. ;)

[Asherons_Chosen]

Applying magical effects on THF glancing blow is awsome. I've always wondered why the description on those weapons say x effect if damage is taken... and damage is taken w/o x effect being applied.

[Borror0]

The standard rules for Prestige Enhnancements apply - one from each class.
Quick question regarding racial PrE...

Could a 18 dwarf paladin pick up Defender of Syberys III and Dwarven Defender III?

On a side note, this many pages of giant blocks of red text are really hard to read. ;)
:rolleyes:

[VonBek]

Regarding how it should be implemented. I favor the best two build points being 6 levels and 18 levels of a class.

We clearly like to tinker, I'm not finding a reason to dislike this idea.

[Dylos_Moon]

"Unarmed" is an available option for the Kensai.

The standard rules for Prestige Enhnancements apply - one from each class. Yes, Kensai / Tempest is also possible, but you may want to see what the Fighter Capstone enhancement is before deciding that's what you want to do.

On a side note, this many pages of giant blocks of red text are really hard to read. ;)

Any chance Shield is an available type for Kensai, personally I think that would be awesome, especially with some of the more powerful damaging shields, of course you'd have to add Weapon Focus: Shield, etc, but Imagine Talon with Kensai 3, 2d6+5 18-20/x3 +2d6+4 on a crit.

[Solmage]

I'll just say the news are awesome.

However, I do have one small nagging question.. I miss the days of the two-handed weapon wielding barb, and I fear that now fighters will be the two-handed wielders, and barbs will continue to wield dual rapiers or picks or something inane like that. So the question is "will there be barbarian enhancements that also improve two-handed fighting's glancing blows, like kensai does, or some other enhancements or changes to make that option worthwhile?"

[Asherons_Chosen]

Just a few comments.

2. Tier 1 is still disappointing in comparison to Tempest 1 so it is much better to go 12 fighter 6 ranger then 12 ranger 6 fighter which I feel shouldn't be the case.

3. I am not a 100% sure that this is enough actually. It makes the fighter competitive with the other classes as they currently stand but vs. rangers at level 20 with tempest 2 and tempest 3 and barbarians with their prc and barb crit rage 2 and paladins with their prc and zeal and divine might I am not sure will be competitive.


I chose this quote but its not the only one I'm directing this post at.

I think too often people forget about the fact that variety is necessary.

All classes have their own features... it seems that if much of the game community got its way, all arcane casters would have every spell and double mana bonuses with extra feats along the way and all fighter classes would be able to get quadrupled critical threat ranges and wield max damage with whatever weapon combination they choose and have more ac than any mob could overcome.

So turbine... you have apparently been wasting your time. From now on just focus on re balancing the classes. There should be a specialist class to open locks, a melee class that can kill all mobs in a single blow and never take damage b/c their ac is so uber, and a caster class that doesn't run out of mana because it of course has more mana than there are mobs in the game and doesn't ever get resisted or saved against b/c it has every possible spellcaster specilization. You can do away w/ clerics, and bards because the other classes are so uber that they don't need to be healed or sung to... (unless they're throwing a party to celebrate their uberness and need some musical accompanyment).

[Aerendil]

*snip* It now is starting to look like every build might eventually best be served being 18 levels of something. That is pretty boring if you ask me. In D&D (3.5) there are alot of examples of prestige classes which are great to just take 2 levels in it as well as prestige classes that are great to take 10 levels in it(I don't know the paths of 4.0 as well as 3.5 prestige classes), but it seems like in 3.5 they wanted to give people the option of multiclassing. DDO should be the same.

Yep, true.
It's so different from PnP, really.
PnP = PrCs with anywhere from 1 to 10 levels. You can take as many levels of the PrC as you like. For instance, with Tempest, it was a 3 level PrC. So you could be a Ranger 19/Tempest 1, or Ranger 17/Tempest 3 if you like.

In DDO, everything is either 3 levels (i.e. Tempest, Kensai, Warchanter) or 5 levels I think it is (Arcane Archer), and are generally restricted to one class. So no Ranger/Assassins or Fighter/Tempests without some serious multi-classing.

I'm not sure I like that, to be honest, and I made a post a month or so back asking if the specialty lines will ever be opened up to anyone qualifying for them. Never got a response, but I'd imagine the answer would be "no".
Shame, that. D&D, to me, is about having a ton of various possibilities for character creation/advancement.
DDO seems to have very clear-cut super builds (which of course change every time the level cap is raised and/or new enhancements appear, which can be quite frustrating for some).

*sigh*

[The_Ick]

"Unarmed" is an available option for the Kensai.

The standard rules for Prestige Enhnancements apply - one from each class. Yes, Kensai / Tempest is also possible, but you may want to see what the Fighter Capstone enhancement is before deciding that's what you want to do.

On a side note, this many pages of giant blocks of red text are really hard to read. ;)

oowwww.... What are Capstone the Capstone enhacements... Can you give us some info on that?

[cam]

The standard rules for Prestige Enhnancements apply - one from each class. Yes, Kensai / Tempest is also possible, but you may want to see what the Fighter Capstone enhancement is before deciding that's what you want to do.

First off, I think its great that the upcoming mod will potentially look at the melee classes holistically. Perhaps a true balancing? However, while a capstone enhancement would be cool, it scares me that multi class toons could be missing out in a big way here. This is not meant to start a wasted debate on to multi-class or not, but I would love a sneak peak at what these lvl20 capstone enhancements may be and who will be receiving them.

-c

[Holgar]

2 Questions about the Kensai Enhancements:

1) Kensai I raises your combat DC's by 1 point. Is that only while you have your chosen weapon equipped? The reason I ask is that my fighter uses the Khopesh as her primary weapon, but also uses Stunning Blow with the Tenderizer.

2) Is it possible to have more than one special weapon type as Kensai?

Thanks,

Holgar

[Lillitheris]

However, I do have one small nagging question.. I miss the days of the two-handed weapon wielding barb, and I fear that now fighters will be the two-handed wielders, and barbs will continue to wield dual rapiers or picks or something inane like that. So the question is "will there be barbarian enhancements that also improve two-handed fighting's glancing blows, like kensai does, or some other enhancements or changes to make that option worthwhile?"

Fear not, there are PrEs planned for barbarians as well.

I'd pick these 3:
THF
HP+Con+energy resistance+...
Attack speed+saves+maybe even evasion

But that's a whole other discussion :)

[Vyr_Vandalous]

Is it fair that Sorcerer gain more out of Cha than a rogue?
Is it fair that Wizards got a such a lousy BAB?
Is it fair that Clerics got a 3/4 BAB while being a full class spellcaster?
Is it fair that Rogues can deal so much DPS with their sneak attack?
Is it fair that Fighters get more feats than other classes?
Is it fair that Monks loose some their abilities if uncentered?

No it's not!




1.> Is it fair that Sorcerer gain more out of Cha than a rogue? A.> Of Course. Its not anyones fault if you built your rogue all gimped with no UMD, or defensive skills. A rogue with no UMD is like Austin Powers With no MoJo.. = Pointless.

2.> Is it fair that Wizards got a such a lousy BAB? A.> You play a wizard eh? Try Tanking alot do ya? run out of SP'S quickly From Casting Burning Hands On Fire Reavers Do ya? Of Course Its Fair... You are a wizard afterall.

3.> Is it fair that Clerics got a 3/4 BAB while being a full class spellcaster? A.> Of Course.. Clerics as it is now are Shafted.. They are/or were supposed to be a tank class.. Fighting Toe In Toe with the others but got shafted, Even their turn undead does not work the same as it did in Orien Beta. A Cleric Is a Soldier Of his Divine Faith and Is Automatically Proficient with Maces and the like.. I think they need a bigger Boost as it is. (No I Dont Play a Cleric) But I Do Understand.

4.> Is it fair that Rogues can deal so much DPS with their sneak attack? A.> Of Course It Is! A Rogue Studies Combat With Opportunistic Maneuvers and Attacks from Behind.. For a Rogue... Doing Damage is the easy part... Living Through it is another.. Rogues should actually have a greater ability to assasinate /one hit kill ability with success.. Considering their combat style as a whole.

5.> Is it fair that Fighters get more feats than other classes? A.> Yes actually it is.. Wizards spend years studing the arcane arts.. Bards study muscial instruments and raise it to an artform in artistic expression, ect.. Fighters Need the feats because without a Bard, Wizard, Sorc, Cleric they are nothing. Cannot Solo, Cannot do ****.

6.> Is it fair that Monks loose some their abilities if uncentered? A.> My Room Mate in Real Life is a Shaolin Monk.. So yeah... Being Centered is Key. Always Has Been.... the Way of Dao and All that Jazz... I think that being uncentered needs to be reconsidered as weapon masters can remain centered dual weilding... and the such. Its like meditation... You have mastered meditation when you can stand in a crowded loud room and not hear anyone but your own inner thoughts. Centered works the same way but takes a high level of mastery to achieve.


Vyr Vandalous, Khyber Server.

[Griphon]

"Unarmed" is an available option for the Kensai.

The standard rules for Prestige Enhnancements apply - one from each class. Yes, Kensai / Tempest is also possible, but you may want to see what the Fighter Capstone enhancement is before deciding that's what you want to do.

On a side note, this many pages of giant blocks of red text are really hard to read. ;)

.... Sorry man

It's all Borror0's fault!

[Aesop]

It'll be ok as long as we can stay away from "its a fact that the fact that you are factually stating is in fact not a fact at all" that kinda crud is just that CRUD... and that's a fact.


My gripes with the PrE are that its doesn't seem up to par with the other new PrE that we have seen.

Also I'm not thrilled about the THF bonuses. In this case while I understand that THF is fallin behind a touch couldn't you make something that made it also benefitial to 1 handed combatants.

How about this

tier 1 +2.5% attack speed increase (does NOT stack with Tempest speed increase)
tier 2 5% attack speed increase (does NOT stack with Tempest speed increase)

this may require applying a Type to Tempest Speed increase... but it would help pure Fighter TWF which are overshadowed by Tempest Rangers (though it would not outshine that particular PrE for TWF) and would help the S&B fighters with their Damage as well.


Aesop

[SteeleTrueheart]

"Unarmed" is an available option for the Kensai.

The standard rules for Prestige Enhnancements apply - one from each class. Yes, Kensai / Tempest is also possible, but you may want to see what the Fighter Capstone enhancement is before deciding that's what you want to do.

On a side note, this many pages of giant blocks of red text are really hard to read. ;)

I am currently waiting to build my next paladin until I see all of the PrE's. So feel free to go to the thread in my signature and drop in the working version of the Paladin capstone enhancement! ;)

[Borror0]

Vyr Vandalous, Khyber Server.
While these are flavorful abilities, they are unfair in mechanical point of view. Of course, that is brang back together by other factors after to make them sort of balanced and that was the point I was trying to make Griphon understand. While the parts may not be balanced, who cares? It's the whole that has to be balanced.

[Desteria]

"Unarmed" is an available option for the Kensai.

The standard rules for Prestige Enhnancements apply - one from each class. Yes, Kensai / Tempest is also possible, but you may want to see what the Fighter Capstone enhancement is before deciding that's what you want to do.

On a side note, this many pages of giant blocks of red text are really hard to read. ;)

I agree i find the red text hard at times 2 Adn i apoligize you had to read through all that.... But dang that was a fun night shift that night makign all thouse pages ;)

[Griphon]

I agree i find the red text hard at times 2 Adn i apoligize you had to read through all that.... But dang that was a fun night shift that night makign all thouse pages ;)

Yah.
It kept me from going insane at work... and from keeping me from doing work. LOL

[Aerendil]

Eladrin - with regards to Kensai/Weapon Master, will we ever be seeing "weapon style" feats, such as were offered in the various 3.0 and 3.5 books, added to DDO?

As an example, Complete Warrior comes to mind where you could buy a feat allowing you to "specialize" in certain unusual pairings of weapons, such as Hammer's Edge which included using a sword and hammer together, or High Sword Low Axe which was (obviously :p) sword and axe, and then being able to get a weapon specialization in that style (i.e. Weapon Specialization - Hammer's Edge).

The way weapon specialization currently works, and I believe someone previously mentioned (think it was Borror0 or Maddmatt - but I forget which of you it was, sorry), it makes for an incredibly "linear" progression as you essentially have to wield 2 of the same weapon type.

I'd love to be able to build a Fighter skilled in the art of TWF, but who uses (random example) a longsword and battleaxe instead of the "twin sword" style of fighting of the typical TWFer (yes, I'm thinking dual khopesh users here, or dual rapiers), yet not be penalized by going Kensai and only having the benefits added to my primary weapon only.

Will this ever be a possibility?

[Junts]

"Unarmed" is an available option for the Kensai.

The standard rules for Prestige Enhnancements apply - one from each class. Yes, Kensai / Tempest is also possible, but you may want to see what the Fighter Capstone enhancement is before deciding that's what you want to do.

On a side note, this many pages of giant blocks of red text are really hard to read. ;)


Hey Eladrin, you guys should add a stone of change alchemical ritual that provides a kensai some sort of bonus on one specific bonded weapon; can only have it on one weapon at a time, and they already have to give up alchemical force to do it.

would let you do the dedicated weapon thing (though everyones gonna do it on greensteel, so it probably shouldnt be too powerful) as a little extra unique thing that fits the class

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Thank you for the insight.

I lvl up very slowly, it is very important to me to have a long range planning tool (information) to use when I lvl up a char.

It is very frustrating to find out that I should have chosen something different and there is no way to respect a choice made on old information.

Please continue to chare informatiomn with us to help ease some of our frustrations.

Thx.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I heard them hint at this before. I have very mixed feelings regarding a change to tempest. Alot of players have built characters with 6 levels of ranger and then to nerf that out is very harsh. Hah, I for instance am leveling up a rogue with 6 ranger levels. It is rough to suddenly alter players' builds that have been out there a long time, although mine has not been. Some people made chars almost a year ago with just 6 level of ranger or so. I would rather tempest 1,2, 3 not change tempest 1, but other classes get similar power points. As long as the mobs at end game make any sense at all this if it were like this it would be the preferred option in my opinion.

Yeah, this bothers me as well.

I would actually like to see a way to respect lvl up choices.
But at least don't take away from what we already have.

[binnsr]

Didn't see anyone ask this in a skim of the other pages in this thread:

Will the bonus to confirm crits stack with other seeker bonuses (i.e. bloodstone or weapons)?

Will Kensai benefits apply to ranged weapons at all? Thinking Kensai III with a side of Ranger here..

[Uska]

Didn't see anyone ask this in a skim of the other pages in this thread:

Will the bonus to confirm crits stack with other seeker bonuses (i.e. bloodstone or weapons)?

Will Kensai benefits apply to ranged weapons at all? Thinking Kensai III with a side of Ranger here..

It lists range so yeah it will work for ranged increasing hit damage and crit range, as to the stacking should stack its not the same named bonus