Rogue Splash and Evasion

[BoBoDaClown]

Hey guys,

I have just started levelling a bit of a mongel. He was going to contain one level of rogue in order to do some traps. Unfortunately I cannot afford another level to get evasion.

How many traps require evasion? i.e. trap goes off over the box? Are there many? What are they? (or have I misunderstood evasion).

What quests have unusually high benchmarks for search/disable/lock? In order that I avoid telling groups I am capable of doing them when the mutt may not be able to.

Said mutt will have roughly 60 in the pertinent skills (with boost).

Any help would be greatly appreciated :)

Udine

[sirgog]

Evasion is much more important for combat than traps.

Only a few traps require Evasion to disable effectively. But staying alive in some fights without Evasion at endgame is tough even for a 400hp character with quickened Heal, quickened Protection from Elements and a Fire Shield clicky.


Currently the most important benchmarks are VoD elite (only 45, it's pretty low) and Monastery of the Scorpion elite (higher than that, but not sure how high - plus it's hard to not run out of skill boosts there).

If you do not have evasion, expect to spend a LOT of time dead at current endgame. Clerics will not raise you in the boss fight of Enter the Kobold (they might once or twice, they'll learn not to waste their SP quickly) and the unpredictable traps of Monastery are really rough on a non-evasion character (they hit for 150+ on normal).

[Gadget2775]

What's (if you don't mind me asking) preventing the second level of Rogue? Evasion is really handy especially if you happen to find traps by walking through them :eek:

[BoBoDaClown]

Thanks for the advice Sirgog. I guess endgame isn't a big concern for me because I am fairly casual (i.e. the character probably won't hit endgame before a level cap increase).

Gadget: The character is a bit of a 'concept' build (read: realisation of non uberness). The character will be my second alt (so fairly low amount of time invested).

She will end up Human 14 Barb / 1 Ranger / 1 Rogue. I wanted to create the best 'ranged' character I could (I fully realise its limitations). Therefore 14 Barb for crit 2, 1 Ranger for bow strength. Since this character won't be able to fill a 'tank' role I want to fill another needed role - Rogue (i.e. I can send group leaders a msg telling them I fill that role).

Make sense? (I sure hope so) :)

Thanks guys

[Oreg]

Makes sense for your goals. As far as evasion goes I would plan on taking another level of rogue sometime between 17-20 just because you will want it someday. A build you enjoy playing is more important than end game any day.

[sirgog]

Advice:

At cap 16, shoot for 13 Barb, 1 Rgr, 2 Rog.

You keep: Bow strength, huge STR, ability to alternate between ranged and 2WF combat, Crit Rage 1
You lose: Crit Rage 2 (which means you'll lose 25% of your crit threats on a bow, assuming IC: Ranged - hurts Banishing bows most; you'll also lose 12.5% of Rapier crits, or if you use other weapons, between 12.5 and 25% of your crits), couple HP
You gain: Evasion (IMO much, much more important on a part-time melee and trapsmith than the extra damage of Crit Rage 2)


Of course, at 20, you'll want to take 1 more Barb level at least, then the rest - maybe Ranger to get Ram's Might for a stacking +2 Str, or more Barb levels.

[BoBoDaClown]

Advice:

At cap 16, shoot for 13 Barb, 1 Rgr, 2 Rog.

You keep: Bow strength, huge STR, ability to alternate between ranged and 2WF combat, Crit Rage 1
You lose: Crit Rage 2 (which means you'll lose 25% of your crit threats on a bow, assuming IC: Ranged - hurts Banishing bows most; you'll also lose 12.5% of Rapier crits, or if you use other weapons, between 12.5 and 25% of your crits), couple HP
You gain: Evasion (IMO much, much more important on a part-time melee and trapsmith than the extra damage of Crit Rage 2)


Of course, at 20, you'll want to take 1 more Barb level at least, then the rest - maybe Ranger to get Ram's Might for a stacking +2 Str, or more Barb levels.


That is very tempting. My feats: Point Blank, Rapid Shot, Precise, Imp Precise, Many Shot, Imp Crit Ranged, then a toss up between Repeater and Toughness depending on gear at 16.

What is the impact of losing one threat range (i.e. 16-20 Silver Bow, 18-20) to general dps? I assume a lot less that 25%? I am no good with number crunching.

At 16 I should be able to get a tier 3 greensteel Long Bow, and may use repeaters between manyshots depending on equipment.

I think I may very well go with your suggestion (I think I had been too caught up in getting a good crit threat range).

Thanks Sirgog.

[sirgog]

That is very tempting. My feats: Point Blank, Rapid Shot, Precise, Imp Precise, Many Shot, Imp Crit Ranged, then a toss up between Repeater and Toughness depending on gear at 16.

What is the impact of losing one threat range (i.e. 16-20 Silver Bow, 18-20) to general dps? I assume a lot less that 25%? I am no good with number crunching.

At 16 I should be able to get a tier 3 greensteel Long Bow, and may use repeaters between manyshots depending on equipment.

I think I may very well go with your suggestion (I think I had been too caught up in getting a good crit threat range).

Thanks Sirgog.


What you lose by giving up a point of crit threat on a Longbow:


Case 1: You hit the opponent on a 2, no Bloodstone, confirm crits on a 2:

With Crit Rage 2: Per 20 shots: 19 hits of which 3.8 are crits - equivalent to 26.6 hits
With Crit Rage 1: Per 20 shots: 19 hits of which 2.85 are crits - equivalent to 24.7 hits

or about 8% DPS.


Case 2: Hit on a 12, no Bloodstone, confirm crits on a 12:
With Crit Rage 2: Per 20 shots: 9 hits of which 1.8 are crits - equivalent to 12.6 hits
With Crit Rage 1: Per 20 shots: 9 hits of which 1.35 are crits - equivalent to 11.7 hits

again, about 8%


Case 3: Hit on a 12, Bloodstone, confirm crits on a 6:
With Crit Rage 2: Per 20 shots: 9 hits of which 3 are crits - equivalent to 15 hits (+54 damage from Bloodstone)
With Crit Rage 1: Per 20 shots: 9 hits of which 2.25 are crits - equivalent to 13.5 hits (+40.5 damage from Bloodstone)


Here, it's a bigger loss, and Bbn14/Rgr1/Rog1 comes out ahead.


Case 4: Arraetrikos Normal - Hit on a 2, Bloodstone, confirm crits on a 1:
With Crit Rage 2: Per 20 shots: 19 hits of which 4 are crits but 2 are resisted - equivalent to 23 hits (+36 damage from Bloodstone)
With Crit Rage 1: Per 20 shots: 19 hits of which 3 are crits but 1.5 resisted - equivalent to 22 hits (+27 damage from Bloodstone)

Here, it's about a 4% difference.


Final one:
Case 5: In last fight of Enter the Kobold, hit on a 4, Bloodstone, confirm crits on a 1:

With Crit Rage 2: Get off 20 shots before dying. 17 hits, 4 crits, all resisted as Fire Eles are immune to crits. So 17 hits. If you get raised, you have -5 to hit (from lack of GH and from a death penalty) and might get off 8-12 more arrows before being slain again.
With Crit Rage 1: First 20 shots: 17 hits of which 3 are crits - all resisted, so 17 hits. You are alive, at 85% health and your Fire Protect is gone. Next 20 shots - as above, except this time the Cleric throws you a heal spell after you roll your third 1.

[BoBoDaClown]

What you lose by giving up a point of crit threat on a Longbow:


Case 1: You hit the opponent on a 2, no Bloodstone, confirm crits on a 2:

With Crit Rage 2: Per 20 shots: 19 hits of which 3.8 are crits - equivalent to 26.6 hits
With Crit Rage 1: Per 20 shots: 19 hits of which 2.85 are crits - equivalent to 24.7 hits

or about 8% DPS.


Case 2: Hit on a 12, no Bloodstone, confirm crits on a 12:
With Crit Rage 2: Per 20 shots: 9 hits of which 1.8 are crits - equivalent to 12.6 hits
With Crit Rage 1: Per 20 shots: 9 hits of which 1.35 are crits - equivalent to 11.7 hits

again, about 8%


Case 3: Hit on a 12, Bloodstone, confirm crits on a 6:
With Crit Rage 2: Per 20 shots: 9 hits of which 3 are crits - equivalent to 15 hits (+54 damage from Bloodstone)
With Crit Rage 1: Per 20 shots: 9 hits of which 2.25 are crits - equivalent to 13.5 hits (+40.5 damage from Bloodstone)


Here, it's a bigger loss, and Bbn14/Rgr1/Rog1 comes out ahead.


Case 4: Arraetrikos Normal - Hit on a 2, Bloodstone, confirm crits on a 1:
With Crit Rage 2: Per 20 shots: 19 hits of which 4 are crits but 2 are resisted - equivalent to 23 hits (+36 damage from Bloodstone)
With Crit Rage 1: Per 20 shots: 19 hits of which 3 are crits but 1.5 resisted - equivalent to 22 hits (+27 damage from Bloodstone)

Here, it's about a 4% difference.


Final one:
Case 5: In last fight of Enter the Kobold, hit on a 4, Bloodstone, confirm crits on a 1:

With Crit Rage 2: Get off 20 shots before dying. 17 hits, 4 crits, all resisted as Fire Eles are immune to crits. So 17 hits. If you get raised, you have -5 to hit (from lack of GH and from a death penalty) and might get off 8-12 more arrows before being slain again.
With Crit Rage 1: First 20 shots: 17 hits of which 3 are crits - all resisted, so 17 hits. You are alive, at 85% health and your Fire Protect is gone. Next 20 shots - as above, except this time the Cleric throws you a heal spell after you roll your third 1.


Thank you for running those numbers for me - I appreciate the work you put into it.

I love the last example :) It actually reflects a good general philosophy - the longer you are alive, the more damage you will do. Evasion would be helping beyond just this extreme instance.

I think I will go with the Rogue 2 path - realistically cap increase and crit rage 2 will happen before I am 16 (that mod might also make this character obsolete :) ). The survivability and help trapsmithing evasion gives seems worth a c.8% loss to dps.

Cheers matey!

[xanvar]

I think it has been stated if so sorry to be redundant. The cap will be going from 16 to 20. As a casual gamer I havn't had a capped character since cap was at ten. Taking that into consideration if you think the level cap will raise before you hit 16 you may want to add a second level of rogue around character level 10 or so. This will give you evasion while you are leveling up the rest of the way. Once the cap goes up you will just be postponing the 14 barb for one level. You can still go 17 barb, tireless rage I believe, 1 ranger for bow str I am guessing and 2 rogue for evasion and skill points. Not sure if it helps but just a thought.


I see I posted a bit late oh well

[BoBoDaClown]

I think it has been stated if so sorry to be redundant. The cap will be going from 16 to 20. As a casual gamer I havn't had a capped character since cap was at ten. Taking that into consideration if you think the level cap will raise before you hit 16 you may want to add a second level of rogue around character level 10 or so. This will give you evasion while you are leveling up the rest of the way. Once the cap goes up you will just be postponing the 14 barb for one level. You can still go 17 barb, tireless rage I believe, 1 ranger for bow str I am guessing and 2 rogue for evasion and skill points. Not sure if it helps but just a thought.


I see I posted a bit late oh well


Yeah. I might even add in the rogue a little earlier to make that evasion useful sooner.

Cheers

[tihocan]

I would also vote for the extra rogue level instead of crit rage 2. Just plan it so it gives you as much benefit as possible skill-wise.
As far as disabling goes, my barb/rogue I believe is around +60 on her disable rolls (that includes +5 thieves tools), and that's good enough for pretty much everything (but I haven't tried the L17+ stuff on elite yet).

Best races for you are probably among elf, human or drow. Elf better for ranged, human/drow better for roguish stuff. Try to get a +2 Int tome as well, it'll probably help you with skills.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Evasion is the best feat on the game IMO.

But you seldom have to actualy stand in a trp to disable a box. You do, however quite often have to get through the trap to the other side to disabale the box.
And this is very difficult without evasion....
Plus some trap boxes are extremely difficult to disable and not stand in the trap. (Von5)

[SableShadow]

Evasion is the best feat on the game IMO.


...if you have the reflex saves to back it up.

To the OP: I wouldn't go rogue just for traps, or for traps at all. I've run into "The beauty of this build is that you don't need a rogue!" builds many times over the years, and found them sorely lacking. YMMV.

On the other hand, if you can hit a few UMD watermarks, you can be a completely self-healing (when not raged) barbarian. Rage, kill a lot, heal up, rage, kill a lot, heal up....repeat ad nauseum.

Notice how many truly awesome barb/wiz wf tanks there are out there that do exactly this, for example...

But whatever my opinion, Oreg's advice is the best: if you like the playstyle of your build, you'll end up playing it a lot, get real good at it, and have a lot of fun into the bargain.

[BoBoDaClown]

I went human for the skill points, skill boost, and feat. She has 16 int (+1 tome). She can keep disable, search, UMD maximised, and open lock and spot a little short of max. Reflex saves should be good.

The goal of this character is to be a 'ranged' character. If I'm not having fun I'll delete :) I'll see how the rogue skills will pan out, but I think I'll be right with good gear.

Thanks for all the advice guys!