Turbine Please nerf WOP!

[GeneFrenkle]

It's gotten to the point where in the high level quests if you have a party full of duel wielding WOP carries the quests are way to easy, and if you don't have anyone in the party with WOP they are too difficult. People are no longer taking down mobs by depleting hit points, but instead just reducing the con to 0. I propose that the effects for stat damage can only be applied to each mob once. So regardless of the number of times you hit with wounding only 1 point of con damage is done to a particular mob. The same would apply for any stat damage. Imagine if you ran a quest where the mobs were all duel wielding with WOP weapons. No one would run that quest because it's just silly to have that kind of stat damage going on in the game. WOP should be nerfed, and the quest difficulty should be adjusted accordingly.
Turbine please address this issue ASAP!

[cdbd3rd]

/Hands Gene the keys to his very own brand new private Vault-Tek nuclear survival shelter.


Here ya go. Yer gonna be needin this.


http://home.att.net/~cdbd3rd/rofl.gif

[Aesop]

Top three Broken things that have been added to DDO

1. Stat Damage Weapons most notably WoP
2. Dodge Bonuses on Items
3. Greensteel and its ilk (Dragon Touched included)


just my opinion

Aesop

[Aeneas]

It was semi-addressed with the Sor'jek buff that the giants in the Reaver's refuge have, but instead of being entirely immune it sort of works like they have partial fortification against it i think.

If they completely took con damage away, prey on the predator would get a bit more difficult for sure.

[Club'in]

This would make my dex ranger very very very unhappy.

How bout we have more effective caster a.i.? The mob's shaman/clerics should be hitting them with Heal spells, which completely wipe out all stat damage.

[Aesop]

It's gotten to the point where in the high level quests if you have a party full of duel wielding WOP carries the quests are way to easy, and if you don't have anyone in the party with WOP they are too difficult. People are no longer taking down mobs by depleting hit points, but instead just reducing the con to 0. I propose that the effects for stat damage can only be applied to each mob once. So regardless of the number of times you hit with wounding only 1 point of con damage is done to a particular mob. The same would apply for any stat damage. Imagine if you ran a quest where the mobs were all duel wielding with WOP weapons. No one would run that quest because it's just silly to have that kind of stat damage going on in the game. WOP should be nerfed, and the quest difficulty should be adjusted accordingly.
Turbine please address this issue ASAP!



As a note you could just make it so the weapon can't reduce a mobs Stat to less than 1... then while they'd be a huge advantage still they wouldn't outright kill a critter.

It's not gonna happen but I understand the frustration

Aesop

[HeavenlyCloud]

Top three Broken things that have been added to DDO

1. Stat Damage Weapons most notably WoP
2. Dodge Bonuses on Items
3. Greensteel and its ilk (Dragon Touched included)


just my opinion

Aesop

i'm surprised Barb critical rage was not listed ;).

As always the problem is inflated Hit Points, with devils some use puncturing, some use vorpals, but with this new giants with deathward puncturing is the only way to go.

so /signed do something about inflated hp :(.

[GeneFrenkle]

This would make my dex ranger very very very unhappy.


Understood, but nevertheless it's never wise to be a "one trick pony" so to speak.

[MrCow]

As always the problem is inflated Hit Points

Yep, its getting the point that as an arcane CON damage is the solution too. The giants fall faster in a cloudkill than they do from a Wall of Fire.

[Aesop]

i'm surprised Barb critical rage was not listed ;).

As always the problem is inflated Hit Points, with devils some use puncturing, some use vorpals, but with this new giants with deathward puncturing is the only way to go.

so /signed do something about inflated hp :(.

The Crit rage issue is relevant to the Stat Damage issue. without Stat damage Weapons it would be less of an issue ... its still a little broken but not something I feel too strongly about.


Toughness was at one point on that list but I feel the recent change, while not a perfect fix does make me a bit happier.

Aesop

[Club'in]

Understood, but nevertheless it's never wise to be a "one trick pony" so to speak.

That's why I also play 9 other characters. But for my Drow dex ranger, her con damage weapons really are her best option. Rapiers in general have ridiculous price inflation on the auction house, so coming up with dps options is tough. This will probably change once I start running the Shroud with her.*

*side note: i don't know much about the shroud and crafting, just have a general idea. Can someone toss me a PM with the best recipe to shoot for for a dex-ranger's rapier? Many thanks. :D

[Dexxaan]

Understood, but nevertheless it's never wise to be a "one trick pony" so to speak.

LOL - You hit one of the major Player-Side faults in the game.

Nerf em and lets get back to basics. AC - DPS - Saves

[gfunk]

I like w/p and other stat damagers. I feel they add diversity to the game in how to kill things.

for example, some common creatures from current end game:

-living spells: kill with w/p or disable with w/e (disabling often prevents respawns).

-orthons: vorpals, or stat damage as above.

-gnolls and other smaller mobs: DPS is probably first choice, w/p second, vorpals only for the ultra low dps builds.

-red names: DPS and only DPS (except for the use of some weapons with destruct or other debuffing abilities).

In the vale it's a toss up for me whether I use my shroud weapons or my puncturing rapiers... either works fine on the mobs out there (or you can always use banishers)

Also, you DO NOT NEED WOP RAPIERS to be effective. My ranger uses a holy rapier of puncturing and a bodyfeeder rapier of puncturing to good effect in many quests. Before that, I had straight wounding rapiers. (yeah nice punturing rapiers can be spendy, but i've had my ranger for 1.5 years and have had all that time to look for weapons at good prices.. eventually something pops up if you are persistant).

If you are daunted by the cost of rapiers, then look to wounding shortswords, light picks, or daggers (you can often get these cheaply with a nice "kicker" like pure good, slowburst, etc etc). I let go a wounding of enfeebling dagger for 17k plat a couple weeks ago.

Weakening enfeeblers can often be had at a very cheap price (at least on sarlona they can). They will quickly disable a mob allowing you to DPS to your hearts content, or just leave them there (no one said you have to kill everything).

Or you could craft up some earthgrab weapons and autocrit things to death.

Besides, actual full blown w/p weapons are so rare I really can't think of them as game wrecking. I have been playing for over 1.5 years now most nights of the week, and have never pulled one... I don't think I've even seen one in any of the chests I have opened.

[suitepotato]

I don't even own a WoP. I have instead a wounding of enfeebling and a weakening of puncturing for dual wield, and sometimes I use a maladroit of bonebreaking. Even WITH a haste pot, going solo against Duegar fighters at Black Anvil Forest to test, I still take 25-50% hp damage straight out. I get nailed by other things like hob shamans in the Gianthold explorer area, so soloing that is out unless I sneak a lot. I run fast, in circles, flank constantly, keep moving, and don't make it easy and still, bang zoom to the moon Alice.

If it were broken, a middle road combo build like Haph would own those and I don't so, clearly not broken.

WoP weapons are not at all common, they sell for many many millions on AH (especially the vaunted rapiers), rare are the quitting players who toss them in the House D vendor, and by themselves not a win the game solution given that many high level mobs have rather insane con stats and insane hp. They are good in close quarters, hasted, where mobs can't maneuver freely. In a wide open area, where the funky AI aggro patterns can have things going in ten directions, you have less a chance to land those crits or even basic hits, AND plenty of chances to get surrounded/flanked and taken out quick.

Of course, they have ZERO effect on undead and if we were to have stat damagers for undead, to follow the heal/harm logic, they'd have to function as stat enhancers on all living opponents. Just wait till we get zombie or ghoul giants.

EDIT: Maladroit of bonebreaking brings the monsters to zero dex, and all hits are crits from that point on near as I can tell, but even hasted and using a weakening of puncturing in the offhand, most of the kills in Subterrane runs are still the DPS tanks keeping the renderers' aggro. I just help and enable. That's why these are good for party play. Some stat dmg, some dps, some cast, some heal.

[Vivanto]

This would make my dex ranger very very very unhappy.

How bout we have more effective caster a.i.? The mob's shaman/clerics should be hitting them with Heal spells, which completely wipe out all stat damage.

While that would sort of fix the WoP issue a bit, just further ruins DPS options. Remember the gnolls in Crucible spamming heal every time they get to 50% hp. Also then ppl would just take that vorp instead of of WoP.

[PurdueDave]

Top three Broken things that have been added to DDO

1. Stat Damage Weapons most notably WoP
2. Dodge Bonuses on Items
3. Greensteel and its ilk (Dragon Touched included)


just my opinion

Aesop

I could live with a triple nerf. Back to basics. Simultaneous re-scaling of mob power.

[Chelsa]

Silly discussions are fun. :p

[Oreg]

Top three Broken things that have been added to DDO

1. Stat Damage Weapons most notably WoP
2. Dodge Bonuses on Items
3. Greensteel and its ilk (Dragon Touched included)


just my opinion

Aesop

Ironically, identical to my new list:

Top 3ish things that have kept people from getting bored with the game so that they continue to pay their monthly fees and keep the game alive

1. Stat Damage Weapons most notably WoP
2. Dodge Bonuses on Items
3. Greensteel and its ilk (Dragon Touched included)

Just my opinion:)

[Xyfiel]

Top three Broken things that have been added to DDO

1. Atari
2. Eberron (although I don't mind)
3. Third Party Exclusives


just my opinion

Aesop

Fixed that for ya!

[Beherit_Baphomar]

The problem with w/p weapons, greensteel weapons, insane DC's on spells, insane HP's on dwarves etc is the changes that then need to be put in place to account for these things.

W/P has cause more mob HP's and more mob CON. To such an extent that things have gotten out of hand, including mob to-hit's and the usefulness of AC.

But I wouldnt blame w/p solely for this problem. Crit Rage II, greensteel items, our HP's, our ability to reach 52 STR or something rediculous like that can all be put in the same basket.

Now, Im not a casual player (or at least I wasnt until recently) so I cant even imagine what these new quests would be like without greensteel or w/p. I dont think Id even attempt them.

I also believe that the Dev's made a bad decision to make normal settings harder and elite settings nigh impossible. I believe the intent was to give powergamers something to work at (elite settings) and casual something to be able to run.

Maybe reworking this to make all those immunities only on elite and normal to have mobs with less HP's and less immunities. But then no one would run elite because random loot sucks...see, this problem isnt just about w/p weapons or about blanket immunities...

Take the Shroud. If normal setting was made easier, but with the same ingredient chance we have now and elite Shroud had double the ingredients tell me the powergamers wouldn't run elite every chance they could? The reason they dont is because random loot sucks and ingredients fall at the same pace regardless...

Make normal setting normal where specialty, grind-only items are not required and make elite mobs have immunities but with some decent random loot....casual players must have a hard time of doing anything endgame.

[VirieSquichie]

This would make my dex ranger very very very unhappy.

How bout we have more effective caster a.i.? The mob's shaman/clerics should be hitting them with Heal spells, which completely wipe out all stat damage.

The enemy divine casters should really be tossing out Restoration on their meatshields, should have been doing so since what, Mod 4?

These days I suppose that would be Mass Restoration in the high-end content.

WoP is only effective because the enemy hardly ever counters it - only by accident, to counter HP loss - so if a party is only doing stat damage they'll never realize they should Heal it.

Thing is, WoP is the preferred method because the mobs' HP is just too high to realistically DPS down. When every trash mob has several thousand HP, wading through with a couple butter knives isn't really a viable option.

[Deval]

You r all friggin mad!

You need all the help you can get with the mobs these days.

WOP for the WIN!

Although it wouldnt surprise me if they did nerf it, they nerf everything else in the game that is enjoyable.

When it comes to WOP weapons, please keep your opinion to yourself!

Just MY opinion

[Vengenance]

Haven't they nerfed WOP as it is making all red names immune to stat damage. Even in the new areas, while you can get through the trash mobs with WOP, you have to DPS all of the named enemies.

Look at the last three raids they've added to the game, WOP isn't good for anything. In the end it always comes down to raw DPS. WOP is pretty much only good against high hitpoint trash mobs. It makes clearing to the end boss easier, but once your there you better have some good DPS weapons or it is all moot.

[BattleCircle]

Heh..

Saw an LFM up today on ghall..............

"must have WOP"


that just SUX

[Kistilan]

/hands Gene The Keys To His Very Own Brand New Private Vault-tek Nuclear Survival Shelter.


Here Ya Go. Yer Gonna Be Needin This.


http://home.att.net/~cdbd3rd/rofl.gif

Rotflmao!!! Brilliant!!!

[Saragon]

As things stand right now, con damage weapons are a huge asset to any party in these quests but they aren't really the problem. Remember the quests where a well built dps toon could outkill someone else using stat damage? The devs need to take a hard look at what they are attempting to do with the game and address those issues.

Dps should always be an option. IMO, the moment a barb steps into a quest and feels the need to swap out his best dps greater bane weapons for a pair of stat damage toothpicks, you know there's something wrong. My concern isn't with wop. In fact, I'm fine with it being just that - an option for others such as dex based toons that allows them to keep up with the big dpsers. What I strongly dislike though is the completely overblown hps that make most people allergic to even attempting to kill something with good old fashioned damage. Stat damage isn't really just an option now. It's very quickly becoming the only way to go.

[Melthus]

I want a rapier that has the enervation effect on it when it crits. Forget about taking off con, I want levels, muhahahahahaha.

[Ringos]

Top three Broken things that have been added to DDO

1. Stat Damage Weapons most notably WoP
2. Dodge Bonuses on Items
3. Greensteel and its ilk (Dragon Touched included)


just my opinion

Aesop

1, Agreed
2. Agreed
3. Agreed



But I wouldn't support the actions the OP suggests.

[Ranmaru2]

Ok..so what's your solution now? Nerf Crippling Strike too? Oh wait, we'd need to nerf intimidate in the process cause that's part of Crippling strike's tremendous power.

You do not need Wounding AND puncturing on a weapon, Weakening of Puncturing is an awesome combo, as is Wounding of Enfeebling. Heck crippling of Puncturing is also awesome too (if you know how to move properly....)

[Borror0]

i'm surprised Barb critical rage was not listed ;).
Well, if Con damage via puncturing wasn't as powerful as it is, Critical Rage wouldn't be as powerful as it is.

As always the problem is inflated Hit Points, with devils some use puncturing, some use vorpals, but with this new giants with deathward puncturing is the only way to go.

so /signed do something about inflated hp :(.
...and inflated HP is mostly caused by the inflated nuking damage.

[Obmi]

Are you kidding me? Why don't we all just get masterwork weapons instead of giving peeps something to aspire to? Maybe we should all just drive volkswagons becasue porsches are to fast? I can't believe when peeps cry about stuff on a video game. Nerf this , Nerf that.... wait, I have a better idea...let's make all the players on each server throw there wops into a master vault then let the developers give the weapons out, kinda re-distribute the wealth for those not fortunate enough to either loot , buy , or trade for a wop...oh wait, nevermind....that's the plan in real life (obamanomics), bad idea....seriously though....come on! Sorry to rant, and DDO, these silly ideas of nerfing things , make some people a tad upset, given they often build characters around weapons or items....

disgusted in ghallanda :mad:

westside

[GeneFrenkle]

Ok..so what's your solution now? Nerf Crippling Strike too? Oh wait, we'd need to nerf intimidate in the process cause that's part of Crippling strike's tremendous power.

You do not need Wounding AND puncturing on a weapon, Weakening of Puncturing is an awesome combo, as is Wounding of Enfeebling. Heck crippling of Puncturing is also awesome too (if you know how to move properly....)

The point is now they have to design the game to give trash mobs huge amounts of Con because the only thing people are using are stat damagers. You can basically take DPS out of the game since everyone is going to start using stat damagers. As more and more people start using them the mobs become easier to kill and the devs need to add higher con to mobs in order to maintain the difficulty of the quest. With so much Con, the mobs have insane HP's and now DPS is completely no longer an option. Better start collecting stat damagers or get out of the game. This puts TWF even further out of balance with THF and S&B because anyone with duel stat damagers is 2x as effective as anyone with one stat damager. Also two types of stat damage is 2x as good as one type. So a party with 3 or 4 mele types that are all dual wielding WOP weapons puts everything completely out of balance. How can you design a quest that's hard enough for the all dual wielding WOP party, but not too difficult for a party without stat damagers?
Sure you can argue that Red named requires DPS but that's one or two mobs in the entire quest.
What I'm suggesting is Nerf stat damagers, and adjust the quest difficulty so that DPS is a vialble option.

[eonfreon]

umm... you do realize that high HPs are a counterbalance to a Caster's nuking ability, not a counterbalance to WOP, right?
Yes, the Devs now inflate Con and Str scores to compensate for WOP, but that has little effect on HPs, because they can use any kind of dice for Hit Point determination.
I don't know about 3.5 PNP rules, but back in AD&D monsters used 1d10 per Hit Die, so to get the kind of Hit Points Mobs have in DDO, they would have to have roughly 100 HD or more, for trash mobs alone, or the Con equivalent of 100 Con or more.
So obviously Turbine uses some other method of Mob Hit Point determination besides Hit Die or Constitution.
To compensate for a Nuker's power they raised Hit Points of Mobs and so Wounding, Puncturing, Weakening and Enfeebling became the only options for melees to kill things at higher levels.
So unless they go back and rebalance the game for all the Classes, I have to say:
/Not Signed

[dameron]

Keep WoP but make all on crit stat damage effects only apply on a natural 20.

[Samadhi]

It's gotten to the point where in the high level quests if you have a party full of duel wielding WOP carries the quests are way to easy, and if you don't have anyone in the party with WOP they are too difficult. People are no longer taking down mobs by depleting hit points, but instead just reducing the con to 0. I propose that the effects for stat damage can only be applied to each mob once. So regardless of the number of times you hit with wounding only 1 point of con damage is done to a particular mob. The same would apply for any stat damage. Imagine if you ran a quest where the mobs were all duel wielding with WOP weapons. No one would run that quest because it's just silly to have that kind of stat damage going on in the game. WOP should be nerfed, and the quest difficulty should be adjusted accordingly.
Turbine please address this issue ASAP!

Dude, con damage has been the best way to kill many mobs since the level cap was 10. Sorry you were slow to realize this. Nerfing con damage is a haphazard answer that will just anger game fans. A better solution is to lower mob HP to more reasonable levels. Unfortunately, this amps up caster nuking power, so that melees are even more useless. Therefore, my vote is to continue to keep melees useful, by keeping stat damage effective. What is more fun as a melee? Complete uselessness? Or the need to see "lots" of red numbers? Whether you are killing with damage or con damage - it is the same game from the melee perspective - swing and hit. The method they HAVE taken to lower stat damage effectiveness - requiring you to bypass DR - is effective in making your str build more effective than all these dex crazy hybrids - don't worry.

[Thar]

WOP isn't broke, it's part of DND.

It's the insane amount of hp's on the mobs that are broken. If you were doing pnp, you would not face a non-demigod with 2000 hit points. In DDO, this is a random encounter in the wilderness area. Since spells, etc were not scaled to match, stat damage is the only way to effectively counter this since, unlike other mmo's mana and hp's don't regenerate.

[Aesop]

I was about to post a few things and then I realized... I shoudln't. I've had a bad night for gaming. I saw once more how overpowered WoP is compared to straight damage and how low S&B is compared to twf. I saw non red named mobs firing off 250 points of damage in a single shot and spamming spells faster than a sorceror with Quicken can... and this is on Normal Setting. I saw a poor quest design that the Devs told us back in Mod 3 they would not do save in large explore areas. Now I see people that actually think that WoP is a good REASON to play the game... Yeah not a good gaming night.

Stat Damage is not an option in the current quest design it is a requirement.

Aesop

[Tin_Dragon]

It's gotten to the point where in the high level quests if you have a party full of duel wielding WOP carries the quests are way to easy, and if you don't have anyone in the party with WOP they are too difficult. People are no longer taking down mobs by depleting hit points, but instead just reducing the con to 0. I propose that the effects for stat damage can only be applied to each mob once. So regardless of the number of times you hit with wounding only 1 point of con damage is done to a particular mob. The same would apply for any stat damage. Imagine if you ran a quest where the mobs were all duel wielding with WOP weapons. No one would run that quest because it's just silly to have that kind of stat damage going on in the game. WOP should be nerfed, and the quest difficulty should be adjusted accordingly.
Turbine please address this issue ASAP!



ROFLMFAO :D:D


whew, you almost had me there, almost.... I needed that. :cool:

[Clay]

Dude, con damage has been the best way to kill many mobs since the level cap was 10. Sorry you were slow to realize this. Nerfing con damage is a haphazard answer that will just anger game fans. A better solution is to lower mob HP to more reasonable levels. Unfortunately, this amps up caster nuking power, so that melees are even more useless. Therefore, my vote is to continue to keep melees useful, by keeping stat damage effective. What is more fun as a melee? Complete uselessness? Or the need to see "lots" of red numbers? Whether you are killing with damage or con damage - it is the same game from the melee perspective - swing and hit. The method they HAVE taken to lower stat damage effectiveness - requiring you to bypass DR - is effective in making your str build more effective than all these dex crazy hybrids - don't worry.

Agreed. Wounding, Puncturing, were mainstays on all my melee characters since the lvl cap was ten. I was lucky enough to get a keen puncturing rapier back then and one TR run outkilling the bbn on my med str rogue was an eye opener for sure. Ever since then I used stat dmg exclusively for elementals. Only when Crit Rage came out did people start getting on the band wagon.

so you want to point fingers, blame Crit Rate I and II, Not w/p/wop.

And if you are bemoaning not being able to do stat dmg on a caster, test out contagion a little. You may be surprised at its effectiveness.

[osirisisis]

It's gotten to the point where in the high level quests if you have a party full of duel wielding WOP carries the quests are way to easy, and if you don't have anyone in the party with WOP they are too difficult. People are no longer taking down mobs by depleting hit points, but instead just reducing the con to 0. I propose that the effects for stat damage can only be applied to each mob once. So regardless of the number of times you hit with wounding only 1 point of con damage is done to a particular mob. The same would apply for any stat damage. Imagine if you ran a quest where the mobs were all duel wielding with WOP weapons. No one would run that quest because it's just silly to have that kind of stat damage going on in the game. WOP should be nerfed, and the quest difficulty should be adjusted accordingly.
Turbine please address this issue ASAP!

I disagree

W/P is one very few things in the loot table KEEPING IT ALIVE. As history shows as the loot table excitement declines so does population and turbines profits.
Its also very rare and one of the few things that players who have been here for a while, who worked to obtain can enjoy.
Dual weild w/p rapiors is a elite players sig. and if U want to come in here and get 2 mineral 2 weapons and be just as good as players who have looted for 2 years then
then you dont have my support.

Raiseing the drop rate of power 5's and Mineral 2 has just about completely distroyed all most all of the loot that players have worked for as they looted over the last 2 years. And its ****ed off alot of the core DD players who have been here supporting this game for the last 2 years ...............which is why most of them have move on to other games. Thus major population decrease since mode 6
w/p nuff: -----------> Big thumbs down !!!!!!!!


On the point of Crit rage 1 and 2 nuffing. NO WAY. crit rage 2 is only slightly more effective tempest when it comes to effects or stat damage. Rangers have finess dex AC and favored enemy. Barbs have HP and DR. A close balance. If anything Fighters need major major major help, and I look forward to crit rage 3 and tempest 2.

signed

[Kistilan]

I was about to post a few things and then I realized... I shoudln't. I've had a bad night for gaming. I saw once more how overpowered WoP is compared to straight damage and how low S&B is compared to twf. I saw non red named mobs firing off 250 points of damage in a single shot and spamming spells faster than a sorceror with Quicken can... and this is on Normal Setting. I saw a poor quest design that the Devs told us back in Mod 3 they would not do save in large explore areas. Now I see people that actually think that WoP is a good REASON to play the game... Yeah not a good gaming night.

Stat Damage is not an option in the current quest design it is a requirement.

Aesop

I always find myself agreeing with you. :o Well-stated.

[Geonis]

WOP isn't broke, it's part of DND.



No, it isn't.

There is one named weapon that has puncturing, and it does 1d6 Con damage 1 time per day.

Wounding is DnD, but hitting a creature 15-20 times, should DPS it to death before the Con damage drops it. The Con damage is really more to assist the DPS.

No, I don't have an answer to fix the situation, but admitting there is a problem is the first step to fixing it.

[Uska]

I dont know about nerfing wop but I am getting tired of the few times I get on of seeing groups with the tag must have wop

[Uska]

Top three Broken things that have been added to DDO

1. Stat Damage Weapons most notably WoP
2. Dodge Bonuses on Items
3. Greensteel and its ilk (Dragon Touched included)


just my opinion

Aesop

might want to add elevated mob hit dice/hit points and what they did to action points which also lead to elevated mobs.

[itslex1]

A better solution is to lower mob HP to more reasonable levels. Unfortunately, this amps up caster nuking power, so that melees are even more useless.

This is the rub.

Case in point, when Gianthold was the latest and greatest the only reason to bring along melees was to stand in doorways. Everything was taken down with PK, Finger, Wall of Fire... and there were probably people posting way back then "ZOMG! Arcanes are overpowered! Nerf them please!"

WoP brings a tenuous balance to melees vs. arcanes.

And... we're 16th level now. Its okay if we have nice things....

[Vandos]

Saw an lfm for a hound raid on Thelanis tonight that wanted 3 WoP dual wielding tanks. If thats a genuine requirement then mob hp's are off the radar, time to use terrain, caster AI and masses of mobs with decent hp totals to challange players rather than a few heavy hitters with hp in the 1000's.

[dragonofsteel2]

There two reason way stat damage is broken. One is the insane hit points some mobs have. Second is that everything accept undead, red names, and purple names can be killed with them. There does not need to be all ending nerf to stat damage weapons but critters with 20%, 30%, and 40%... ect.. resist to stat damage. This way we keep all classes optional for all things. Although if start making tons hit point mobs with no way but damage to kill them, the only class that will be viable is high dps and casters. So when asking for things to be fix, stop with the blanket kill there toon angle. This does not help the game if wipe one play style off the face the game to appease another. This is way I do not like reading the forums most of the time, its nerf this style so the way I fill the game should be played. Instead thinking blanket nerf start being creative to make a balance for all toons.

2. Nope sorry not broken everyone and anyone can use that. It's the d20 system that limits them and makes so hard to keep armor classes in line not the dodge bonus.

3. Nah green-steel is not broken at all need something to strive for. The armor was a good idea. Weapons and armor should always improve if keep giving the same junk away there not much to strive for. Sure the new mods will have even better armor and things for it.

[Borror0]

There does not need to be all ending nerf to stat damage weapons but critters with 20%, 30%, and 40%... ect.. resist to stat damage. This way we keep all classes optional for all things.
Not rogues actually. Deflating the mobs HP would actually be the way to go.

Nope sorry not broken everyone and anyone can use that. It's the d20 system that limits them and makes so hard to keep armor classes in line not the dodge bonus.
It is not because everyone has the possibility to wear them that they are fine.

As for the rest of your comment, do you mean we should "accept that the d20 system has flaws and move on"? If so, that is defeatist and not a good way to look at any problem.

Nah green-steel is not broken at all need something to strive for. The armor was a good idea. Weapons and armor should always improve if keep giving the same junk away there not much to strive for. Sure the new mods will have even better armor and things for it.
Improvement is good. Too much in a short amount of time, from a small quantity that not everyone will posses isn't. The progression is too steep.

[Uska]

No, it isn't.

There is one named weapon that has puncturing, and it does 1d6 Con damage 1 time per day.

Wounding is DnD, but hitting a creature 15-20 times, should DPS it to death before the Con damage drops it. The Con damage is really more to assist the DPS.

No, I don't have an answer to fix the situation, but admitting there is a problem is the first step to fixing it.

dont know how wounding works in 3.0-4 but in ad&d its just caused the target to keep bleeding hp not con.

[deepshadow]

I disagree.

Coordinate your party to all use wounding. Puncturing is just icing on the cake. Focus and organize your party with stat damagers and you'll be just as effective.

Stat damaging is a great tactic that adds depth to the game and should remain a viable method of killing.

[Gunga]

No. Don't nerf it, just tell GeneFrenkle that you did. Then he will go away happy: A Happy Frenkle is a Silent Frenkle is a Good Frenkle.

[Geonis]

dont know how wounding works in 3.0-4 but in ad&d its just caused the target to keep bleeding hp not con.

Wounding in 3.x, is the same as it is here, 1 point of Con per hit.

With the HP and Con numbers in 3.x, it assisted DPS, but wasn't really a stand alone tactic.

The change of Puncturing from a single named weapon (Rapier of Puncturing) that can deal 1d6 points of Con damage 3 times per day (I was mistaken in the earlier post), to one that deals it on any crit, is a huge change.

The 3 times per day weapon is on par with the Sunblade, which unlike here, is an extremely powerful weapon.



Rapier of Puncturing: Three times per day, this +2 wounding rapier allows the wielder to make a touch attack with the weapon that deals 1d6 points of Consitution damage by draining blood. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to the Consitution damage dealt by this weapon.

Strong necromancy; CL 13th; Craft Magical Arms and Armor, harm; Price 50,320 gp; Cost 25,320 gp + 2,000 XP.

[Borror0]

Deepshadow, do you mean...

Stat damaging is a boring tactic that remove any room for creativity and should remain the only viable method of killing trash mobs.

[Junts]

It was semi-addressed with the Sor'jek buff that the giants in the Reaver's refuge have, but instead of being entirely immune it sort of works like they have partial fortification against it i think.

If they completely took con damage away, prey on the predator would get a bit more difficult for sure.

I find this very ironic because the rampant immunities in this quest make it one of the few were WOP damage is truly not only the fastest path but one of the only alternatives - its one of the only places I use a con damage weapon, as I a m not specced to be good at con damage.

Vorpal, DPS, any kind of real crowd control that is not web, etc are all useless in this quest. The only way to do it is to con damage the giants down while they are in webs or FTS.

In most quests, vorpals offer an accessible and effective alternative to con damage. Kill team in Hound of Xoriat and Prey on the Hunter are the only two places in the game where I, as someone who leads a fair amount of groups, specifically look for con damage specced characters to fill the role. Almost any other role can be filled, on normal, hard and often elite, by other toons played well with alternative weaponry - vorpals, weak of enfeebling, FOD, etc.

[lord_of_rage]

I disagree with the op. WOP is fine for trash mobs. It doesnt do anything against rednames. So trash mobs go down fast thats a good thing. I know people also complain about green steel. For awhile my fighter,barb,and bard didnt have any nor did I run the shroud untill mod7. Now its an accomplishment to get my tier3 weaps. I know that I have to work for it. It keeps me running them once I get 1750 on them and gives me a target for new builds. Yes having all that on a weapon can be abit much, but I enjoy crafting them. People complain about crit rage one and two. Barbarians are supposed to be the kings of DPS. It makes sense. With tempest being what it is you see more of them anyway. Most barbarians I see on Khyber are still THF. I like the fact that the new area requires some straight out DPS. Soul didnt have an a problem out there. I dont see the devs nerfing this. Honestly people crying for a nerf gets old. On the whole I think the devs are doing a great job. No I wasnt here for launch. So I dont remember the "good old days". But be happy with what we have. This is still the best MMORPG I have played. Enjoy it.

[Invalid_50]

mob hit points are inflated. why is this? because people complain the game is too easy? too much spell damage? who knows. but thats why people use wop weapons. monsters are god like, people will take the path of least resistance. no need to nerf the weapon.

reduce number of hit points on some monsters so dps kills faster than wop weapons. now there is a purpose for wop weapons, but also need for dps. problem solved.

[Gunga]

I disagree with the op. WOP is fine for trash mobs. It doesnt do anything against rednames. So trash mobs go down fast thats a good thing. I know people also complain about green steel. For awhile my fighter,barb,and bard didnt have any nor did I run the shroud untill mod7. Now its an accomplishment to get my tier3 weaps. I know that I have to work for it. It keeps me running them once I get 1750 on them and gives me a target for new builds. Yes having all that on a weapon can be abit much, but I enjoy crafting them. People complain about crit rage one and two. Barbarians are supposed to be the kings of DPS. It makes sense. With tempest being what it is you see more of them anyway. Most barbarians I see on Khyber are still THF. I like the fact that the new area requires some straight out DPS. Soul didnt have an a problem out there. I dont see the devs nerfing this. Honestly people crying for a nerf gets old. On the whole I think the devs are doing a great job. No I wasnt here for launch. So I dont remember the "good old days". But be happy with what we have. This is still the best MMORPG I have played. Enjoy it.

Well put.

/signed

[eonfreon]

Deepshadow, do you mean...
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepshadow and edited by Borro0
Stat damaging is a boring tactic that remove any room for creativity and should remain the only viable method of killing trash mobs.

I'm sorry Borroo, but I'm trying to figure out why you consider DPS "creative" and stat damage "boring".
Meleeing is all about point and click, what does it matter if you're doing stat damage or hit point damage if it kills the Mobs?

[Murderface]

As a note you could just make it so the weapon can't reduce a mobs Stat to less than 1... then while they'd be a huge advantage still they wouldn't outright kill a critter.

It's not gonna happen but I understand the frustration

Aesop
if there at 1 con then they lost all there hp anyway and even the miserable dps that wops do would kill it
you could very easily nerf this by putting a dc 15 fort save on puncturing enfeebling and bonebreaking

[Murderface]

Deepshadow, do you mean...
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepshadow and edited by Borro0
Stat damaging is a boring tactic that remove any room for creativity and should remain the only viable method of killing trash mobs.

I'm sorry Borroo, but I'm trying to figure out why you consider DPS "creative" and stat damage "boring".
Meleeing is all about point and click, what does it matter if you're doing stat damage or hit point damage if it kills the Mobs?
enfeebling for instance is a good tactic its not that strong it wont get you a kill usualy but it helps everyone else in the party out

[eonfreon]

enfeebling for instance is a good tactic its not that strong it wont get you a kill usualy but it helps everyone else in the party out

Ok. So are you agreeing or disagreeing? Enfeebling is a method of Stat Damage and is very viable currently.
Enfeebling with Puncturing is very strong- an enfeebled opponent is autocritted, thus punctured to death very quickly.
If you're saying there's more than Puncturing for Stat damage then I agree.
That's why I don't see how dps is "creative".
You hit something and see numbers.
Yay.

[Aesop]

might want to add elevated mob hit dice/hit points and what they did to action points which also lead to elevated mobs.

Mob HP/HD are a symptom not a cause. Enhancements though... I understand them but ... they are often an issue.

It is so much inflation built on top of so much inflation that is a problem.


Casters Damage was boosted up super high so They need to have Mobs with higher HP to survive long enough for a challenge

but now melee needs a way to keep up with casters. Enter Stat Damage Weapons. Suddenly the basics no longer work. Straight damage can't possibly keep up.

The inflation leads to less flexibility in what can accomplish the goals. Without ideal gear and ideal builds you can't complete objectives. This limits viable options and thus limits creativity and diversity with in the game reducing the enjoyment for a large number of players whose goals don't necessarily revolve around playing the 1 or 2 ideal builds.

There is a cyclical action to the power of the fighting styles however the power differences are supposed to become smaller as time progresses not larger. Unfortunately the power disparity has increased to game breaking levels and a lot of thought needs to go into how to progress inorder to regain a balance.

I'm not saying that we should nerf the hell out of Stat damaging weapons, even though I do feel that their addtion to the game is a definate contributor to the current imbalance. I'm saying that the next step in the games evolution should be considered carefully and balance returned between the styles and tactics.


/mini rant
Oh and what the heck is up with a living spell spamming triple Comet Falls for 250 damage each after Fire Resist.

And why do the drow archers never ever miss despite Blur and a 60AC

/sigh

/mini rant off

Aesop

[Aesop]

if there at 1 con then they lost all there hp anyway and even the miserable dps that wops do would kill it
you could very easily nerf this by putting a dc 15 fort save on puncturing enfeebling and bonebreaking

They'd lose a little more than 1/3-1/2 of there HP on average. With the HP being in the current multiple thousands range that is a major help but not a DPS destroyer.

I thought about the save too... I think(edit: know) people would still scream no matter what. Balance doesn't matter to most people out there.

Edit: The real breaking point of Con Damage is that it Kills the critter. If it only made it easier to Kill them it wouldn't be nearly the problem that it has become. However when you can kill in less than 30 hits what DPS can't kill in 75-100 hits ... that's a problem

Aesop

[Noctus]

if there at 1 con then they lost all there hp anyway and even the miserable dps that wops do would kill it


Not really. As monsters in DDO most often have a D100 or so as a HitDice, a measly -5HP per HD through CON 1 wont lower their HP significantly.

[Boldrin]

I think someone's just jealous..... Make the monsters use real hd not d100 or d500, lol and people will dps instead.

[Turial]

.....
/mini rant
......

And why do the drow archers never ever miss despite Blur and a 60AC

/sigh

/mini rant off

Aesop

This next bit will really get your goat...npc archers ....they fire faster then us. Almost on the order of PC melee vs PC ranged ROA.

[Drinkin]

This next bit will really get your goat...npc archers ....they fire faster then us. Almost on the order of PC melee vs PC ranged ROA.

Lies!! All LIES!!

[Amabel]

Ironically, identical to my new list:

Top 3ish things that have kept people from getting bored with the game so that they continue to pay their monthly fees and keep the game alive

1. Stat Damage Weapons most notably WoP
2. Dodge Bonuses on Items
3. Greensteel and its ilk (Dragon Touched included)

Just my opinion:)

You're both right. Sad, isn't it?

[Vorn]

Another minority opinion--I don't mind the mobs extreme hp's. It makes fights last longer. From a metagaming perspective, I'm not sure lvl 16's ought be running over giants and elite orthons as if they are cr1 kobolds--takes some dual wielding wop builds almost the same time to kill either, i.e., almost no time. Remember the old Against the Giants modules in D&D...holy cow those were some epic fights...if you fought them. They also took time.

Part of the challenge seems to be translating that whole sense of time into a video game. How long ought a fight last? How much resources ought it require? In the overall quest how many overall fights ought there be? And so on (answer to these questions could be a range rather than a fixed amount, btw). Add on to that vast differences in gear, play ability and so on and it gets more complex.

Perhaps on hard/elite mobs might acquire resistance to/immunity to stat damaging weapons--in the way in which the pitfiend in the shroud gains fortification on higher difficulty settings?

Perhaps the mobs ought to be carrying, as noted above, restoration/heal,...really depends I guess upon whether they are a high lvl equivalent to the cr1 kobold, or something more specialized.

[Noctus]

Turbine raised the monsters HP-Defence by a good amount to compensate forour Monty-Haul campaign, which is perfectly the right thing to do, if you dont want to play Dungeons&Yawning.

But they missed also raising the monsters CON-Score, which is at/near the P&P amount. This leads to the monsters having a significant weakness in this area, which will be used as a tactic by the players.

If the monsters´s CON-Score would be raised, just as HP were raised, (without raising the actual amount of HP) you could adjust it so that DPS and Stat-Damage are roughly a equally good way of killing trashmobs.
Dex-Builds would go Stat-Damge and have the benefit of better to-hit (DEX is easier to raise than STR) and higher AC, while STR-Builds will have a better performance against Red&Purple named bosses.

When Barbarians with STR 44 start going Stat-Damaging, because DPSing a monster takes waaaay longer something is wrong.


----> Dont nerf WoP, raise CON of the monsters so that both ways take roughly the same time.

[Vorn]

<snip>
----> Dont nerf WoP, raise CON of the monsters so that both ways take roughly the same time.

I like that, the stats could be raised even higher on hard/elite.

I'm not sure it is easier to raise strength then dex though. Strength you can get madstone, rage, ram's might, scourge chokers, double madstone, barbarian rage stuff. Dex is pretty much the base score, isn't it?

As a total aside, I wonder what it would be like to run into a horde of paragon kobolds armed with WoP rapiers....:p

[Dracolich]

Why dont we also "Fix" the Khopesh. If we are going to fix all the artistic license items in this game then lets hit this overpowered one handed weapon too.

Remeber back to basics or wont you guys like that one too, you cant pick and choose what you want to fix when calling for back to basics.

Turbine please nerf the term "Nerf" as it is the most ******** internet term invented, besides (pike, pwn and newb/noob)

[lord_of_rage]

Why dont we also "Fix" the Khopesh. If we are going to fix all the artistic license items in this game then lets hit this overpowered one handed weapon too.

Remeber back to basics or wont you guys like that one too, you cant pick and choose what you want to fix when calling for back to basics.

Turbine please nerf the term "Nerf" as it is the most ******** internet term invented, besides (pike, pwn and newb/noob)

well said. /signed.

[Tin_Dragon]

I think someone's just jealous..... Make the monsters use real hd not d100 or d500, lol and people will dps instead.

I doubt I could find the thread, but there was Dev a year or more back, that stated the monsters HAVE the correct HD, at max HPS. The inflation comes in the form of bonus HPs. So Ogre on normal has 2HD +50 hps, Ogre on elite has 4hd+200 hps. This was brought up do to things like HD based Saves and such iirc. But yeah.

The inflation of HPs of mobs, caused the extreme inflation of damage enhancements for casters. That is when DPS fell behind.

on a another note, this is where HP based spells, that are SUPPOSED to be very powerful (ie Symbol of Death) become muted unless used in low level quests.

[Dexxaan]

Either raise the HP´s substantially.... OR (my preference)

Make em Immune to Stat Damaging past a certain HD or CR.... anything in the Vale or lower...Stat-Damage to your hearts content....but anything over and above...Immune to Stat-Barbies.

OR: Implement a chance of weapons breaking based on type and material...that way in a long quest the 44STR Rapier Barbs will trash their W-P´s if they use em all the time.....they may have to invest in the protection enhancements for a change or have 4 WP Rapiers until they can repair. :D

Barbarians in tights and swashbuckling around like Louis XIV courtesans is all I see nowadays..... :D

[liamfrancais]

I don't fight by WOP much myself but I would be ok with it not going to 0 if the HP acted accordingly. So if you wound and puncture a giant down to 1 con his hit points should be minimal and you can now feel free to damage him without it taking 15 minutes.

[Samadhi]

I'm sorry Borroo, but I'm trying to figure out why you consider DPS "creative" and stat damage "boring".
Meleeing is all about point and click, what does it matter if you're doing stat damage or hit point damage if it kills the Mobs?

Yep

[Dexxaan]

This game is soon to be called: " My WoP is bigger than your WoP" isn´t it?

[Aspenor]

W/P is not the reason monsters have incredible numbers of HP.

This post suggests nerfing the effect, and not the cause.

/not signed

[Samadhi]

Turbine raised the monsters HP-Defence by a good amount to compensate forour Monty-Haul campaign, which is perfectly the right thing to do, if you dont want to play Dungeons&Yawning.

But they missed also raising the monsters CON-Score, which is at/near the P&P amount. This leads to the monsters having a significant weakness in this area, which will be used as a tactic by the players.

If the monsters´s CON-Score would be raised, just as HP were raised, (without raising the actual amount of HP) you could adjust it so that DPS and Stat-Damage are roughly a equally good way of killing trashmobs.
Dex-Builds would go Stat-Damge and have the benefit of better to-hit (DEX is easier to raise than STR) and higher AC, while STR-Builds will have a better performance against Red&Purple named bosses.

When Barbarians with STR 44 start going Stat-Damaging, because DPSing a monster takes waaaay longer something is wrong.


----> Dont nerf WoP, raise CON of the monsters so that both ways take roughly the same time.

The problem with boosting the mobs' con is that now, instead of stat damage being king, vorpals will become king. And since vorpals are much more common than wops, everyone really will be running around doing the exact same thing again, except now it will be vorpals.

Let's take a look at what has ALREADY been done to lesser the effectiveness of stat damagers:
1) More red named. Orange named are almost non-existent in most new content, but we have red named that spawn in addition to other red named just to make life harder on us.
2) Insane DR on elite. This makes your stereotypical TWF/dex build useless for prefix stat damage, but makes normal still manageable for anyone as it should be.
3) 50%+ of the game is still undead :( - or to a lesser degree constructs.

Honestly, I think the complaint is not based around stat damage being overpowering. Why? Because GOOD stat damagers are TOO RARE to really upset the game balance. Moreso, I think that the complaint is from people that think they are useless unless they are a barbarian dual-wielding the rarest weapon in the game, which is not true.

It is GOOD to have extremely rare weapons/items/etc as a random drop; because this is what will make a casual players dream when they get lucky and keep it or trade it to someone that's willing to give 10milpp for it. It is BAD to have the only useful DPS weapons require a lot of grinding (shroud greensteal) vs. the opportunity to just "get lucky." Those that don't mind grinding will grind to "get lucky" while still giving casual players a reason to come along - they won't when they know it will take a year for them to get their MinII.

[WolfSpirit]

Perhaps the solution isn't inflating the HPs, but increasing the CON of new monsters by alot and reducing the total HPs. Yeah, I know they are connected. But there must be a balance.
I do agree that w/p is much more powerful than a well built character.
My highest DPS Character is a monster dual wielding Khopeshs. This character was in Design for months and carefully created/leveled.
With one Mineral Two and a Holy Bursting Pure Good and many other cool tools, used with Gtr Dual Weild.
He can't kill those new giants ANYWHERE near as quickly as the 15 year old kid with a Rogue/Ranger (Who doenst do traps) who's Mommy bought Tens of Millions of Plat for and the boy is killing 3 to my one...
How is this fair?


I've had a W/P Heavy Pick, and W/P Shortsword and traded both off.
Why?
I NEVER Cheat, and I feel like its cheating. Don't even get me started on the guys that feel super in PvP with these.
I thought about using these tool, as I love good tools. I just think they take too much away from well built characters.
Why spend so much time Designing/leveling, and hard EARNED Plat on the AH for dps tools for a cool Character to be proud of?
Just roll up a simple Elf/Drow/Halfling (or whatever) Ranger (or whatever) with Maxed Dex (or whatever) and Pay some Chinese some real money so you Too can keep up with the Jones...

Edit: I don't get upset at people who choose to use these tools, as they are given to us by DDO, I would just agree with some type of balancing so dps Warriors are as useful as w/p.
I DO get upset at players that feel like they have to use these or Tier 3 in PvP, as we are not Monsters created by DDO, and don't have a 100+ CON.

[Dexxaan]

W/P is not the reason monsters have incredible numbers of HP.

This post suggests nerfing the effect, and not the cause.

/not signed

From a practical standpoint.....

The effect you claim can be curtailed or "nerfed" as is the common term.

The Cause never will be tackled and as such I´m trying to hint to turbine the "baby steps" that can be taken to make the game more enjoyable and not cakewalking around in Louis XIV costumes wielding thin slivers of Death as we railroad Giants! :eek:

[Zenako]

As some have alluded to...it is a vicious circle.

Start with a pretty well balanced D&D PnP game.

Now start adding in toys for the video version to make things more interesting...

Toys = Spell Enhancing items/weapons ie Potency, et al
= The entire ENHANCEMENT system which allows you to further tweak skills, stats and effects (notably spell power) even further.
= The new shiny to keep the players always looking for something, which often means that it needs to trump previous items in the game

On the other side the poor mobs, in order to keep the game at least marginally interesting and challenging need to get some loving too. Well the entire core of the system is based on Levels/HD for so many things, that we need to find metagame methods for creating challenge balance. Just like every Hero gets a bonus 20 HP for just being a PC, and later another 10 for doing Giant Hold, the mobs get some bonus HP.

How many should they get thou. Well that good old 7 - D6 Fireball that used to dish out 24.5 points of damage has been amped up so that it is now dishing out with items, feats and enehancements probably close to triple that damage. Those 50 HP mobs that should be a slight challenge and take multiple spells to drop, now just die in one spell. The "easy" answer, give them some bonus HP, so now they all have 100 HP, the normal 50 + 50 Bonus, and the ogres are now a more suitable challenge for the characters and gear in the game.

So on and so forth the cycles continue.


Now W/P weapons are quite effective, BUT so TO are a number of other options.

Quite a few mobs have lower strength than constitution and on those W/E will remove those threats a lot faster. (My rogue has a pair of those and loves taking out casters, very quickly, since once the strength is too low, you get auto crits on the mobs, ie Sneak attack damage too...nasty).

The main reason that you see some groups specifically looking for W/P combos is that in those specific quests those amount to an easy button, just like in other quests, other things amount to an easy button. The world is NOT just only the end game raids/quests. Some quests with a decent bard become an absolute cakewalk (assuming the PLAYERS let that happen, the game lets it happen...)

We are now in the stage of the game with instantkill spells available (on both sides) and at that point, even in PnP D&D melee shifts to other focus. Keep in mind that the goal is supposed to be the party beating the quest, not player A being able to stoke their ego about being the most important. Does the Sorc who StF all the mobs, get any kills, nope, hardly any, but the quest is more readily beaten. Does the CC specialist who charms the mobs into killing each other get those kills, nah, but again the quest becomes easier (although often not faster which alas is a very important aspect to some players...but thankfully not all.)

Frankly any call to nerf just one aspect of the game comes across as someone who does not have that aspect being envious of those who do. Achieving playable balance across the level range from 1-16 (and higher) and making it fun and entertaining along the way is not an easy thing to do.

[Barron]

Would you like a diaper or bottle with that?

Sounds like a have not complaining

[Dexxaan]

Perhaps the solution isn't inflating the HPs, but increasing the CON of new monsters by alot and reducing the total HPs. Yeah, I know they are connected. But there must be a balance.
I do agree that w/p is much more powerful than a well built character.
My highest DPS Character is a monster dual wielding Khopeshs. This character was in Design for months and carefully created/leveled.
With one Mineral Two and a Holy Bursting Pure Good and Gtr Dual Weild.
He can't kill those new giants ANYWHERE near as quickly as the 15 year old kid with a Rogue/Ranger (Who doenst do traps) who's Mommy bought Tens of Millions of Plat for and the boy is killing 3 to my one...
How is this fair?


I've had a W/P Heavy Pick, and W/P Shortsword and traded both off.
Why?
I NEVER Cheat, and I feel like its cheating. Don't even get me started on the guys that feel super in PvP with these.
I thought about using these tool, as I love good tools. I just think they take too much away from well built characters.
Why spend so much time Designing/leveling, and hard EARNED Plat on the AH for dps tools for a cool Character to be proud of?
Just roll up a simple Elf/Drow/Halfling Ranger with Maxed Dex and Pay some Chinese some real money so you Too can keep up with the Jones...


/agreed.

It shows the "spirit" of the game which is lacking lately.

[Rog]

how about mobs that ato cast greater restore on themselfs everytime they get to 50% damage while attacking

[STROBE]

Turbine raised the monsters HP-Defence by a good amount to compensate forour Monty-Haul campaign, which is perfectly the right thing to do, if you dont want to play Dungeons&Yawning.

But they missed also raising the monsters CON-Score, which is at/near the P&P amount. This leads to the monsters having a significant weakness in this area, which will be used as a tactic by the players.

If the monsters´s CON-Score would be raised, just as HP were raised, (without raising the actual amount of HP) you could adjust it so that DPS and Stat-Damage are roughly a equally good way of killing trashmobs.
Dex-Builds would go Stat-Damge and have the benefit of better to-hit (DEX is easier to raise than STR) and higher AC, while STR-Builds will have a better performance against Red&Purple named bosses.

When Barbarians with STR 44 start going Stat-Damaging, because DPSing a monster takes waaaay longer something is wrong.


----> Dont nerf WoP, raise CON of the monsters so that both ways take roughly the same time.

I read the whole thread.

I like this idea.

As a side effect: wouldn't this also lower the effectiveness, just a tad, of some of the insta-kill spells with fortitue checks?

And would this side effect be an improvement or a detriment to the quality of gameplay?

Back to your suggestion on raising con. Question- wouldn't woppers just switch to weekenfeblers? Then what?

[Zenako]

Quick point...top notch DPS always works, it is 24/7.

W/P works a lot of the time, but not all.
W/E works quite often, but not always
M/B is another option to
Just like the old banish/disrupt/para/smite/vorpal still are good options at times.
CC works a lot of the time but not all.
Some spells work at times, but not other times (immunities, etc).

So a solid DPS build is ready for anything the game tosses your way. In some circumstances another method will result in a quicker kill of the mob, if they get lucky a lot quicker.

[Samadhi]

how about mobs that ato cast greater restore on themselfs everytime they get to 50% damage while attacking

I like this idea in theory - but assuming they keep the inflated HP - this will just have everyone resorting to vorpals.

[MacFionn]

How about just leaving it alone. I don't have any wounding of puncturing weapons, and I don't mind if members of my party have them. However, it is getting tiring to have Turbine making changes based upon the outcry of a vocal minority.

If you have issues with WOP, don't use them. Put up LFMs that say, "no WOP allowed". Form a guild that doesn't use stat damage weapons. Now you've successfully addressed your gameplay issue without taking away facets of the game that others might enjoy.

[admcorbin]

The reasoning behind WP being more popular now behind the new expansion is the insane number of hitpoints these new mobs have. being a 16th lvl mon, my fists due damage as 2d8's which is one of the highest in the game. I routinely use a paralyzer handwrap to paralyze the mob first then switch to maladroits to zap dex to make it easier to hit (not to mention the crits) and then switch to bursting handwraps to maximize damage. and it takes forever even with flaming burst weapons. many people are using w/p to reduce teh amount of damage their toons take to maximize the healing efficiency of the clerics in their party. This is seems to be a big issue as the prey mission can get insanely out of hand with the insane numbers of giants that spawn and the lack of shrines within the dungeon.

Get the newer mobs hp's under control first before you start *****ing about the weapons needed to kill them.

[Krell]

I regularly see LFMs that say "WoP only !! Must have WoP weapons". It seems very elitist. I've never seen a WoP myself but have grouped with people that had them. Maybe make it like weakening where if you get it to zero you start criting? Either that or make anything immune to vorpal immune to zero con death. Vorpal is sort of a poor mans WoP.

[Raiderone]

WOP isn't broke, it's part of DND.

It's the insane amount of hp's on the mobs that are broken. If you were doing pnp, you would not face a non-demigod with 2000 hit points. In DDO, this is a random encounter in the wilderness area. Since spells, etc were not scaled to match, stat damage is the only way to effectively counter this since, unlike other mmo's mana and hp's don't regenerate.

It's all relative. You add enhancements and Mob's HP must go up versus DnD.
I say get rid of all enhancements. No more rest shrines. Significantly decrease Mana
so that Mages and Sorc and Clerics can only cast amount of spells based on original DnD rules. I would even like it if they could add random encounters for resting
purposes. Hence rest whenever u want but the party may wipe because of it.
Make it where you need guards to watch the camp. Rangers would help with tracking
to determine best resting areas (all random). Maybe certain quests multiple patrols..
which would determine resting time. The more mana needed to recover the longer the
resting time. the increased chance of a patrol. add in a timer based on quest time(not proportional), to determine when u must rest or suffer fatigue...

[Kraak]

/Hands Gene the keys to his very own brand new private Vault-Tek nuclear survival shelter.


Here ya go. Yer gonna be needin this.




http://home.att.net/%7Ecdbd3rd/rofl.gif

That's the funniest thing I've read in the last year. And nice Fallout reference.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Only if the lower the mob HP to what they should be (about equal to ours) will I be on your side.

And few of my chars even have good W&orP weps.

But the mob HP are insane! No way they should be this high.

players having options is good. Don't take that away!

However, no group I've run with seems to be having an easy time.....
So I'm not sure your arguement is evan valid.

W/P is powerful, but not instant death by any means......and it seems some of the mobs now have about 100 Con as well. I know I've whacked on a few all day with a wounder.........but it might be that some mobs are actually using a heal spell to remove stat damage.

More mobs healing themselves of stat damage is good.
Some kind of protection from it is good....preferable one that can be dispelled, not a blanket immunity.

How about having the mobs use them on us?! :eek:

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I regularly see LFMs that say "WoP only !! Must have WoP weapons". It seems very elitist. I've never seen a WoP myself but have grouped with people that had them. Maybe make it like weakening where if you get it to zero you start criting? Either that or make anything immune to vorpal immune to zero con death. Vorpal is sort of a poor mans WoP.

I won't join those, even with a char that has W/P weps.

They can just sit there with their LFM up all day, while I go do the quest with whoever comes along IMO.

Now, asking the party after you enter the quest to use con damaging weps/spells is fine. But discimination is not.

[Zenako]

Not sure what servers everyone is on, but I SELDOM see LFM's with criteria like MUST have W/P...at least not on Sarlona most nights between 7 and midnight.

Whenever I see something like that, it can be a warning flag that the leader probably only has "one true way" mindset and that if anything goes amiss they will be in trouble.

Whatever...

(oh I have W/P too on my Ranger/rogue so I could join if I wanted I guess....)(As well as a W/P bow, which with Manyshot/Improved Precise shot can be very nasty.....for 20 seconds..;))

[Beherit_Baphomar]

How is this fair?.

Its not supposed to be fair...MMO's are not supposed to be fair...balanced, yes, fair, not so much.

[Gunga]

Either raise the HP´s substantially.... OR (my preference)

Make em Immune to Stat Damaging past a certain HD or CR.... anything in the Vale or lower...Stat-Damage to your hearts content....but anything over and above...Immune to Stat-Barbies.

OR: Implement a chance of weapons breaking based on type and material...that way in a long quest the 44STR Rapier Barbs will trash their W-P´s if they use em all the time.....they may have to invest in the protection enhancements for a change or have 4 WP Rapiers until they can repair. :D

Barbarians in tights and swashbuckling around like Louis XIV courtesans is all I see nowadays..... :D

Sounds like someone needs some playtime with the RP'rs where barbs wield troll bones. Have fun.

[Vorn]

I like this idea in theory - but assuming they keep the inflated HP - this will just have everyone resorting to vorpals.

The fix to that is already in the game where at times you sometimes see the shaman/cleric toss mass death ward on the group of mobs.

Just depends on the management of time and mobs that are speed bumps (either to be killed quickly or bypassed) or intended for extended real-time combat in some sort of complex environment (terrain, spells, reinforcements, etc...) and the relative toughness of the mob vs. the characters. If a player character melee has 500+ hp is it inconcievable that an elite orthon would have thousands? Doesn't sound that far fetched...just wish I had won the lottery and had some of those nice toys too!:p

[Gunga]

It's all relative. You add enhancements and Mob's HP must go up versus DnD.
I say get rid of all enhancements. No more rest shrines. Significantly decrease Mana
so that Mages and Sorc and Clerics can only cast amount of spells based on original DnD rules. I would even like it if they could add random encounters for resting
purposes. Hence rest whenever u want but the party may wipe because of it.
Make it where you need guards to watch the camp. Rangers would help with tracking
to determine best resting areas (all random). Maybe certain quests multiple patrols..
which would determine resting time. The more mana needed to recover the longer the
resting time. the increased chance of a patrol. add in a timer based on quest time(not proportional), to determine when u must rest or suffer fatigue...


That sounds pretty cool. How bout you work on that, and when you have it ready, I'll roll up a toon on your server. Because we certainly don't want the devs to stop what they're currently doing to do this, do we?

[Dexxaan]

I like this idea in theory - but assuming they keep the inflated HP - this will just have everyone resorting to vorpals.

At least Vorpals force you to a 5% effect. Whereas a WoP Barbie has a 40% chance of dropping an average of 4 CON....per Swing per Weapon.....600 CON MOBS?



Sounds like someone needs some playtime with the RP'rs where barbs wield troll bones. Have fun.

RP´rs? yeah right.

Sounds like someone needs a cup of Tea, Reading Glasses, put the phone off the hook and review what is happening all around him in game.

If that´s not possible...a sense of humour would go a long way also.

[Samadhi]

The fix to that is already in the game where at times you sometimes see the shaman/cleric toss mass death ward on the group of mobs.

Just depends on the management of time and mobs that are speed bumps (either to be killed quickly or bypassed) or intended for extended real-time combat in some sort of complex environment (terrain, spells, reinforcements, etc...) and the relative toughness of the mob vs. the characters. If a player character melee has 500+ hp is it inconcievable that an elite orthon would have thousands? Doesn't sound that far fetched...just wish I had won the lottery and had some of those nice toys too!:p

So let's say we have piles of mobs that a) have one of the various changes described making stat desires undesirable b) have deathward. Fire wall FTW!! Oh wait, a la temple of vol, we can't have that either - so let's make them immune to fire. Blade barrier FTW!! Doh! Wait let's give all the mobs evasion and high reflex saves...

The dispute can go on and on forever. The point is that it is better for there to be MULTIPLE ways to kill the enemy (stat damagers, vorps, DPS, spells) than ONE way to kill them due to blanket immunities and the like. Given the extreme rareness of dual-wielding WoP rapier barbarians - I don't think we are in crisis mode. Given that the toughest fights in the game will be against purple named - DPS is never going to go out of style.

If this a discussion about how THF is currently struggling to keep up - no complaints - especially considering how slow that last attack is :(. The OP picked on stat damagers, though, which are really not that problematic from what I can see.

[Gunga]

At least Vorpals force you to a 5% effect. Whereas a WoP Barbie has a 40% chance of dropping an average of 4 CON....per Swing per Weapon.....600 CON MOBS?



RP´rs? yeah right.

Sounds like someone needs a cup of Tea, Reading Glasses, put the phone off the hook and review what is happening all around him in game.

If that´s not possible...a sense of humour would go a long way also.

Hey, I laugh when I read your posts, does that count towards having a sense of humor? I don't put reading glasses on and drink tea while I'm playing, but if that's what you do when you're in game, then that's pretty funny too.

How am I doing? This sense of humor thing is kinda fun, yet I still don't think nerfing WoPs sounds fun. And I'm not going to put your glasses on.

[gfunk]

Ok, so we have 3 new quests at end game (not including pseudo raid which i haven't entered).

ENTER THE KOBOLD: mobs include:

Big kobolds, Wolves, Living spells, Frenzied fire ele's , Efreeti, named Kobolds... all can be easily killed with DPS, except living spells. To be fair, WOP is a big advantage with living spells.. and not having evasion is a bit of an issue when fighting these, but there are alternatives (i.e. ooze puppet or disabling with str damage). All the rest of the mobs are really no problem.. I have a dex ranger with a 22 equiped str, who has no problem dps'ing these mobs down even though none of them are on my favored enemies list.

MONASTARY OF THE SCORPIAN: mobs include:

huminoids and scorrow.. again, easy mobs to DPS to death.

PREY OF THE HUNTER: mobs include:

giants, wolves, and some huminoid archers: I admit that the giants are a bit of a chore to dps, however the others are total softies. And it certainly isnt game breaking with the amount of HP that the giants have.. it just takes a little longer to kill them, so who cares if the quest takes a bit longer for people who don't have WOP. The only fix I would suggest is putting in a useable shrine so that slower groups (who presumeably use more healing mana) do not have to use to many consumeables.


So of the 3 new quests, you have a couple mobs where stat damage would be a big asset, but its certainly not insurmountable. Or at least the only ones my dex ranger has problems dps'ing are the living spells (cause they move around too much to keep the damage on them). I expect that all the barbarians out there should have more dps then my ranger, so I don't see why they should have too many problems with the mobs. If not, then perhaps their weaponry needs some work. I admit that shroud weapons are very prefereable in here, but i am sure that a barb would do quite well with a pair of deathnips, or other higher end-old fashioned weapons. Really, if you are just using some old lvl 12 holy weapons, then you probably need to spend some time in the older content to upgrade these before heading to the tougher quests.

And if you are the type that really hates being outkilled, then don't group with WOP users (lol to LFMS which say NO WOP!).

[Issip]

This would make my dex ranger very very very unhappy.

How bout we have more effective caster a.i.? The mob's shaman/clerics should be hitting them with Heal spells, which completely wipe out all stat damage.

This is my favorite idea - how about MASS RESTORATION - wipes out all stat damage from the group. If enemy clerics chose that as their next spell anytime somone in their group took stat damage then at least you'd have to kill the clerics to zerg everything else, which is twice as much strategy as zerging alone.

I don't like nerfing, but I agree it's out of hand. In PnP if a group of players ran into a group of WoP users it would be a joke - the cleric would restore any stat damage and the group wielding WoP's would get shredded. The cleric would have to move real quick to pull this off in DDO, but there's no reason enemy casters have ot remain ignorant of the fact that their group is being shredded by con damage, they should immediately start spamming mass restore/heal.

[Slink]

I would think a world nerf would be difficult to obtain at best, bringing so many other balance problems into equation. Perhaps a better answer would be to ask turbine to add more simple rednamed encounters? For instance, in the new kobold quest, what if the swarm of kobolds were all rednamed, making them immune to stat damage? Matbe this would be an easier fix? Having more simple encounters with mobs that were just made immune to stat damage?

[Borror0]

This post suggests nerfing the effect, and not the cause.

/not signed
I happen to agree with Aspenor on this one. WoP doesn't need nerfing.

It's mobs' HP that needs to be reduced. Casters' DPS potential as well if it goes back to Module 5 powerlevels. (ie Playtesting will be required.)

[eonfreon]

I would think a world nerf would be difficult to obtain at best, bringing so many other balance problems into equation. Perhaps a better answer would be to ask turbine to add more simple rednamed encounters? For instance, in the new kobold quest, what if the swarm of kobolds were all rednamed, making them immune to stat damage? Matbe this would be an easier fix? Having more simple encounters with mobs that were just made immune to stat damage?

I'm sorry, but blanket immunities are the worse solution.
Resistant, sure.
immunities, no.

[Aesop]

Ya know I was thinking about it and I think that they need to buff up the other Stat Damage Weapons. When we hit zero Strength or Dex we can't swing a weapon... why can the Mobs. Heck by the basic Source rules no one should even be able to move if they are reduced to 0 Strength or Dex.

So how about this if a Mob is Reduced to 0 Str or Dex its Movement is reduced by 50% and it cannot attack or cast spells

That would at least give the different damage styles a little more practical use. I mean I had some living spells that were reduced to 0 Str try getting in between me and another mob... as though trying to die just so they could respawn... what the heck is that all about :)

Aesop

and yes Mob HP are out of control and as for the Archers.. I don't think they roll attacks... I think they are actually effectively throwing touch spells which means they always hit... I thought they were firing faster than PCs... but then again I figured they all just had permanent Multishot.

[Borror0]

I'm sorry Borroo, but I'm trying to figure out why you consider DPS "creative" and stat damage "boring".
Meleeing is all about point and click, what does it matter if you're doing stat damage or hit point damage if it kills the Mobs?
Meleeing might be about point and click, but how you kill the mobs does matter.

Killing with Vorpal isn't fun at all. "Swing, swing, [...] roll a 20, confirm and watch the mob die." That isn't incredibly challenging, is it? All that matters is your accuracy (which is nearly insignificant in DDO) and attack speed (which depends on your fighting style and BAB). If you use TWF, you are the fastest. If you use S&B, you are much slower. If you use THF, you are even slower. Then, higher BAB slows you down and Tempest or Zeal will make you faster.

That's all that matters. Wield a vorpal, swing as fast as you can.

Same can be said regarding to WoP.

Killing via Vorpal, Wounding or WoP is way more boring than DPS. There is somethnig fun is seeing the HP go down. It's not dependant on your luck as much as Vorpal is. The speed at which you can kill isn't related to your fighting style the same way it id when using a Wounding weapon or a Vorpal.

Both of them are extremely biased toward TWF. It makes THF suck at killing trash mobs, isn't that awkward? After all, that big axe is supposed to hurt more than the Sword & Board guy... right? Not less, right? Am I getting it wrong? Because that is the case right now. TWF wins big time at killing speed. Followed by S&B and then THF in last position. With S&B being way behind TWF.

As it wasn't enough, WoP is also biased toward piercing spec.

Overall, it reduces the number of options a character can use to kill. A rogue can't wield a paralyzer in one of his hands with the logic that his sneak attack will deal plenty of damage by itself. A caster cannot use any other spell than Cloudkill if his purpose is to kill.

I hope that is any clear. I'm a bit sleepy, hehe

[frugal_gourmet]

Meleeing might be about point and click, but how you kill the mobs does matter.

Killing with Vorpal isn't fun at all. "Swing, swing, [...] roll a 20, confirm and watch the mob die." That isn't incredibly challenging, is it? All that matters is your accuracy (which is nearly insignificant in DDO) and attack speed (which depends on your fighting style and BAB). If you use TWF, you are the fastest. If you use S&B, you are much slower. If you use THF, you are even slower. Then, higher BAB slows you down and Tempest or Zeal will make you faster.

That's all that matters. Wield a vorpal, swing as fast as you can.

Same can be said regarding to WoP.

Killing via Vorpal, Wounding or WoP is way more boring than DPS. There is somethnig fun is seeing the HP go down. It's not dependant on your luck as much as Vorpal is. The speed at which you can kill isn't related to your fighting style the same way it id when using a Wounding weapon or a Vorpal.

Both of them are extremely biased toward TWF. It makes THF suck at killing trash mobs, isn't that awkward? After all, that big axe is supposed to hurt more than the Sword & Board guy... right? Not less, right? Am I getting it wrong? Because that is the case right now. TWF wins big time at killing speed. Followed by S&B and then THF in last position. With S&B being way behind TWF.

As it wasn't enough, WoP is also biased toward piercing spec.

Overall, it reduces the number of options a character can use to kill. A rogue can't wield a paralyzer in one of his hands with the logic that his sneak attack will deal plenty of damage by itself. A caster cannot use any other spell than Cloudkill if his purpose is to kill.

I hope that is any clear. I'm a bit sleepy, hehe

Spot on.

[Aesop]

Ok so I know this is going to be shot down ... but I figure I'll post it anyway because it gets it out of my head


Some people have said that the WoP Rapiers are too powerful because of the crit range etc and the relation ship to Crit Rage ... blah blah blah... ok so


What if we changed this slightly.

Wounding does a point of Con Damage per Hit if you beat the DR.

Puncturing Does 1 point of Con Damage on a Critical (this stacks with Wounding)...


wait for it


AND does 1d6 Con Damage on a Confirmed Natural 20

I understand this weakens the Rapier a bit in these terms but it would balance a few things out a little better. Crit Rage wouldn't be as heinous with a WoP Rapier... yeah I didn't think anyone would go for it... :D

Aesop

[Shyver]

It seems that a lot of problems and "hate" of W/P comes from barbarians using them with Crit rage 1 & 2. So why not do what some on the forums, not me, have suggested in the past.

Make it so crit rage doesn't work on finessable weapons.

[redoubt]

It's gotten to the point where in the high level quests if you have a party full of duel wielding WOP carries the quests are way to easy, and if you don't have anyone in the party with WOP they are too difficult. People are no longer taking down mobs by depleting hit points, but instead just reducing the con to 0. I propose that the effects for stat damage can only be applied to each mob once. So regardless of the number of times you hit with wounding only 1 point of con damage is done to a particular mob. The same would apply for any stat damage. Imagine if you ran a quest where the mobs were all duel wielding with WOP weapons. No one would run that quest because it's just silly to have that kind of stat damage going on in the game. WOP should be nerfed, and the quest difficulty should be adjusted accordingly.
Turbine please address this issue ASAP!

No thanks.

My guild went into the Scorpion Monastary un-aided and un-informed. 6 level 16s and no cleric (good bard though). We completed the quest (few deaths, no wipes). We thought it was great. Not a single WOP in the group.

To alter the quest to accomodate WOP would be to screw those who don't have it. At the same time, why screw with those weapons. They are rare and entire groups that have them would go through ANY quest like butter even without those weapons. Its the type of players that collect those things and play that much.

BL: its the players and not the weapons. Leave both the weapons and the quest difficulties alone please.

[Gunga]

BL: its the players and not the weapons. Leave both the weapons and the quest difficulties alone please.

Not really. Take two good players and let one of them dual wield WoPs, and you'll quickly note it's the weapon and not the player.

[frugal_gourmet]

Would it be that difficult to just throw in a few monsters with hit points such that both WOPers and DPSers kill at a rate not too far apart?

[eonfreon]

Meleeing might be about point and click, but how you kill the mobs does matter.

Killing with Vorpal isn't fun at all. "Swing, swing, [...] roll a 20, confirm and watch the mob die." That isn't incredibly challenging, is it? All that matters is your accuracy (which is nearly insignificant in DDO) and attack speed (which depends on your fighting style and BAB). If you use TWF, you are the fastest. If you use S&B, you are much slower. If you use THF, you are even slower. Then, higher BAB slows you down and Tempest or Zeal will make you faster.

That's all that matters. Wield a vorpal, swing as fast as you can.

Same can be said regarding to WoP.

Killing via Vorpal, Wounding or WoP is way more boring than DPS. There is somethnig fun is seeing the HP go down. It's not dependant on your luck as much as Vorpal is. The speed at which you can kill isn't related to your fighting style the same way it id when using a Wounding weapon or a Vorpal.

Both of them are extremely biased toward TWF. It makes THF suck at killing trash mobs, isn't that awkward? After all, that big axe is supposed to hurt more than the Sword & Board guy... right? Not less, right? Am I getting it wrong? Because that is the case right now. TWF wins big time at killing speed. Followed by S&B and then THF in last position. With S&B being way behind TWF.

As it wasn't enough, WoP is also biased toward piercing spec.

Overall, it reduces the number of options a character can use to kill. A rogue can't wield a paralyzer in one of his hands with the logic that his sneak attack will deal plenty of damage by itself. A caster cannot use any other spell than Cloudkill if his purpose is to kill.

I hope that is any clear. I'm a bit sleepy, hehe

No, sorry, can't agree. Perhaps it's more fun TO YOU, but not TO ME.
It just sounds like you need a new bar for a Mob's Con score so that you can see it go down and displays on the monitor so you can see the Stat damage to me, if you need that visual to have "fun".
The "awkward" part is the Mobs high Hit Points at endgame, not the "superiority" of the WOP.
At lower levels DPS and Wounding and Puncturing are much closer due to lower Mob Hit Points.
It was always a close call between if one could dps a Mob or another person could wound/puncture a Mob.
As the levels progressed and Caster power increased so did Mob Hit Points.
Now, if a proposed nerf was done to WoP weapons with nothing else changed, as per the OP's proposal, then all that would do is prolong fights for melees, thus increasing resources used and likelihood of deaths, all in the name of "balance".
If Mob hit points are not changed then a nerfing to WoP would hurt very many melees.
And if a simple nerfing is what the OP wants so that his DPS guy can keep up with the WoP guy, then he can simply start his own parties, guild, what have you, and enforce his no WoP rules on his quests with people who wish to play that way, not call for a blanket WoP nerf and to heck with the ramifications.
If he wishes to be in parties that take twice as long to complete quests, with more resources used, then he has that right.
But don't call for nerfing other people's playstyle to improve his own.
And no Bor, I'm not talking about you, I'm just responding to both your post and the OP.
I just disagree that DPS is more "fun" just because you can see the Red Bar going down.
And it certainly is not more "creative".

[Borror0]

The "awkward" part is the Mobs high Hit Points at endgame, not the "superiority" of the WOP.
I know. I have agree to that (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1922850#post1922850) as well.

The problem isn't WoP per say, but the high HP. Nerfing WoP isn't a good idea. It's attacking the wrong problem. Never said otherwise.

And it certainly is not more "creative".
It is more creative in the sense that there is more than one way to play, unlike Vorpal or WoP.

[eonfreon]

I know. I have agree to that (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1922850#post1922850) as well.

The problem isn't WoP per say, but the high HP. Nerfing WoP isn't a good idea. It's attacking the wrong problem. Never said otherwise.

It is more creative in the sense that there is more than one way to play, unlike Vorpal or WoP.

I know you didn't say otherwise, that's why I said I wasn't talking to you but rather about the OP's suggestions.
I clarified it to say that I disagreed with your definition of "fun" for DPS versus Stat Damage/Vorpal.
I still don't see the "creative" part.
DPS is DPS.
Vorpal is Vorpal.
WoP is WoP.

[GeneFrenkle]

And it certainly isnt game breaking with the amount of HP that the giants have.. it just takes a little longer to kill them, so who cares if the quest takes a bit longer for people who don't have WOP.

Takes a little longer...? Have you actually tried it without stat damagers? I challenge you to take a group without stat damagers and go take a run through the winter wonder land area and see how it turns out. See if your cleric is willing to stay in the party the whole way through.

It's way way way out of proportion. For a party with several members carrying WOP weapons the quest is a cake walk. You can probably run through it in about 15 mins. For a party with DPS only, forget it you might as well not bother wasting your time. What's the purpose in designing the quest to work that way? Look at it this way, how rare are WOP weapons? I've been playing since beta and I've never seen one drop in a chest. I've also never seen one up for sale at the AH.
I have no problem with WOP being a tool to use in assistance with fighting mobs, but it's turned into a symbol of elitist BS that requires you being in the right guild and making the right friends, or winning the lottery just to even see one. Now they are designing quests that for all practical purposes require such items in order to be effective, what message does that send to the player base?
I could understand if WOP made the quest a little bit easier, but it makes the quest simple vs. being impossible without it.

[kingfisher]

i like the ' mob clerics caste mass restoration' idea. at least the mobs would be adapting and changing and making it harder that way. better than just swinging away while 4 halflings poke it to death with long needles.

sidenote - does it bother anyone else that a rapier is a ***** weapon and could never ever penetrate a suit of chainmail much less a giants hide?

[Borror0]

I still don't see the "creative" part.
WoP encourages:

Piercing spec
TWF

WoP discourages:

S&B
Slashing & Bludgeoning spec
Choice of weapon used
Choice of spell used

WoP strongly discourages:
THF
That is how it is less creative.

[ViolentEnd]

I do not post here very often, but I thought I would just give my opinion, as I have been on DDO since just after launch, and have also been playing pnp for 10+ years.

Stat damage is used quite a bit in pnp from what I have seen. The groups I have played with tend to find ways to maximize their builds, and also the effectiveness of their strategies. By the time DnD parties have advanced to say, level 16 or so, they often have had the time and resources to acquire ways to "exploit-as some might say" monsters' weaknesses. Wounding comes to mind, although strength damage seems to often be more effective in pnp (empowered ray of emfeeblement; crippling strike; poison; other spells; etc). Con damage can be acheived with wounding weapons, the liberal use of poison (something we don't really have in DDO), spells like Bestow Curse (cannot use it this way in DDO), etc.
I also think that the point that - "it is a bad thing that everyone needs a wounder/puncturer/wop/whatever" is poorly founded. So what. They are effective pieces of equipment that are readily available. I remember being asked what weapons I had to use against the pit fiend before being accepted into shroud pugs. If stat-damagers were not in DDO, everyone would expect you to have greensteel for the end-game. If not that, the next best thing. etc etc

My point(s)
1) Stat damage has always been used in pen-and-paper (from my experience) and is often a very effective strategy.
2) Creative players have discovered this - in pnp and in DDO.
3) Due to their creative nature, players will always find ways to use best what the game(s) offer. If there was no stat damage in the game, players would strategize the next best option.
4) Once the above (3) happened, forum posters would complain that it (the new best option) is the only effective strategy, and it should not be allowed.

Just my opinion

[ViolentEnd]

Takes a little longer...? Have you actually tried it without stat damagers? I challenge you to take a group without stat damagers and go take a run through the winter wonder land area and see how it turns out. See if your cleric is willing to stay in the party the whole way through.

It's way way way out of proportion. For a party with several members carrying WOP weapons the quest is a cake walk. You can probably run through it in about 15 mins. For a party with DPS only, forget it you might as well not bother wasting your time. What's the purpose in designing the quest to work that way? Look at it this way, how rare are WOP weapons? I've been playing since beta and I've never seen one drop in a chest. I've also never seen one up for sale at the AH.
I have no problem with WOP being a tool to use in assistance with fighting mobs, but it's turned into a symbol of elitist BS that requires you being in the right guild and making the right friends, or winning the lottery just to even see one. Now they are designing quests that for all practical purposes require such items in order to be effective, what message does that send to the player base?
I could understand if WOP made the quest a little bit easier, but it makes the quest simple vs. being impossible without it.

I have been there (Winter Wonderland) without wop, and we did fine. Sorc enervated then stoned giants. Used Dreamspitter. Wash, rinse, repeat. There are different ways to skin a cat (or a giant).

[ViolentEnd]

So let's say we have piles of mobs that a) have one of the various changes described making stat desires undesirable b) have deathward. Fire wall FTW!! Oh wait, a la temple of vol, we can't have that either - so let's make them immune to fire. Blade barrier FTW!! Doh! Wait let's give all the mobs evasion and high reflex saves...

The dispute can go on and on forever. The point is that it is better for there to be MULTIPLE ways to kill the enemy (stat damagers, vorps, DPS, spells) than ONE way to kill them due to blanket immunities and the like. Given the extreme rareness of dual-wielding WoP rapier barbarians - I don't think we are in crisis mode. Given that the toughest fights in the game will be against purple named - DPS is never going to go out of style.

If this a discussion about how THF is currently struggling to keep up - no complaints - especially considering how slow that last attack is :(. The OP picked on stat damagers, though, which are really not that problematic from what I can see.

I agree.

[Junts]

Meleeing might be about point and click, but how you kill the mobs does matter.

Killing with Vorpal isn't fun at all. "Swing, swing, [...] roll a 20, confirm and watch the mob die." That isn't incredibly challenging, is it? All that matters is your accuracy (which is nearly insignificant in DDO) and attack speed (which depends on your fighting style and BAB). If you use TWF, you are the fastest. If you use S&B, you are much slower. If you use THF, you are even slower. Then, higher BAB slows you down and Tempest or Zeal will make you faster.

That's all that matters. Wield a vorpal, swing as fast as you can.

Same can be said regarding to WoP.

Killing via Vorpal, Wounding or WoP is way more boring than DPS. There is somethnig fun is seeing the HP go down. It's not dependant on your luck as much as Vorpal is. The speed at which you can kill isn't related to your fighting style the same way it id when using a Wounding weapon or a Vorpal.

Both of them are extremely biased toward TWF. It makes THF suck at killing trash mobs, isn't that awkward? After all, that big axe is supposed to hurt more than the Sword & Board guy... right? Not less, right? Am I getting it wrong? Because that is the case right now. TWF wins big time at killing speed. Followed by S&B and then THF in last position. With S&B being way behind TWF.

As it wasn't enough, WoP is also biased toward piercing spec.

Overall, it reduces the number of options a character can use to kill. A rogue can't wield a paralyzer in one of his hands with the logic that his sneak attack will deal plenty of damage by itself. A caster cannot use any other spell than Cloudkill if his purpose is to kill.

I hope that is any clear. I'm a bit sleepy, hehe

As a slashing specced toon, I do not have a problem with WoP. I don't. I don't even have a problem with it being biased towards piercing spec. I do not.

What does insult me is that not only is WoP biased in that direction, but the most effective and useful effect weapon type in the game (banishing) is also on piercing but not slashing weapons. IMO it is this fact that makes piercing spec really excessive. They get access to both of the fastest ways to kill trash mobs in our high end content - WOP rapiers and banishing rapiers.

If there were banishing scimitars, you know that situation would be quite a bit more even. I am far more jealous of dual banishing wielding people than dual wop wielding people, because there are few quests where there is no alternative to WOPing things, but lots of content (read: the entirety of the Vale before the Shroud) where banishing is king.

[bobbryan2]

The W/P superiority is a problem.

That being said, raising con scores is not the answer. Nor is raising hit dice.

If you raise con scores, fort saves go through the roof. If you raise hit dice, it starts affecting things like banish and other HD related spells (that generally suck anyway).

[eonfreon]

WoP encourages:

Piercing spec
TWF

WoP discourages:

S&B
Slashing & Bludgeoning spec
Choice of weapon used
Choice of spell used

WoP strongly discourages:
THF
That is how it is less creative.

DPS encourages:

Slashing spec (pretty much Khopesh only)
TWF

DPS discourages:

THF
Piercing & Bludgeoning spec
Choice of weapon used
Choice of spell used
Dex Builds

DPS strongly discourages:
S&B

Now the smart fighter is TWF slash and pierce spec

[Borror0]

DPS encourages:

Slashing spec (pretty much Khopesh only)
Not true for all builds. You are overstating it.

DPS encourages:
TWF

Design flaw.

DPS discourages:

THF
Design flaw.

DPS discourages: Piercing & Bludgeoning spec
Not any close in scale. Don't confuse them as the same.

Bludgeoning is just broke. Nothing we can do abut it. Piercing spec has some advantages from a DPS perspective. Depends on the build.

DPS discourages: Choice of weapon used
Totally false. There is a limitation, but saying it discourages it is overstating it.

WoP makes one the weapon the best for everyone. Then, there is a range of less worse ones. But if everyone can get one, WoP rapier is the way to go.

DPS discourages: Choice of spell used

Totally false. Not even close to as restrictive as the current inflated HP restricts.

DPS discourages: Dex Builds

Only if the trade between offence and defence is not worth it.
(Higher Dex means possibility for higher AC.)

DPS strongly discourages:
S&B
Only if the trade between offence and defence is not worth it.

[Aerniel]

It's gotten to the point where in the high level quests if you have a party full of duel wielding WOP carries the quests are way to easy, and if you don't have anyone in the party with WOP they are too difficult. People are no longer taking down mobs by depleting hit points, but instead just reducing the con to 0. I propose that the effects for stat damage can only be applied to each mob once. So regardless of the number of times you hit with wounding only 1 point of con damage is done to a particular mob. The same would apply for any stat damage. Imagine if you ran a quest where the mobs were all duel wielding with WOP weapons. No one would run that quest because it's just silly to have that kind of stat damage going on in the game. WOP should be nerfed, and the quest difficulty should be adjusted accordingly.
Turbine please address this issue ASAP!

what... make the game different from PNP again? so quest is easy, just put up an lfm saying NO WOP and quit whining about it.

[Baranor]

Turbine raised the monsters HP-Defence by a good amount to compensate forour Monty-Haul campaign, which is perfectly the right thing to do, if you dont want to play Dungeons&Yawning.

But they missed also raising the monsters CON-Score, which is at/near the P&P amount. This leads to the monsters having a significant weakness in this area, which will be used as a tactic by the players.

If the monsters´s CON-Score would be raised, just as HP were raised, (without raising the actual amount of HP) you could adjust it so that DPS and Stat-Damage are roughly a equally good way of killing trashmobs.
Dex-Builds would go Stat-Damge and have the benefit of better to-hit (DEX is easier to raise than STR) and higher AC, while STR-Builds will have a better performance against Red&Purple named bosses.

When Barbarians with STR 44 start going Stat-Damaging, because DPSing a monster takes waaaay longer something is wrong.


----> Dont nerf WoP, raise CON of the monsters so that both ways take roughly the same time.

Been working the last 2 days so I've picked this up late but this is exactly what I've been thinking about.
In an Enter the Kobald run the other day the dual wielding WoP ranger outkilled the rest of the party like 75 to 50 or so. This is not balance.

Con doesn't have to be raised so high as to make WoPs useless, just high enough to slow them down so dps becomes more of an option. I really feel for those obsolete dps builds that hit hard but never get to kill anything.

[Baranor]

Turbine please nerf the term "Nerf" as it is the most ******** internet term invented, besides (pike, pwn and newb/noob)

I despise the term pwn, I dont know why it just irritates me.

[Baranor]

It seems that a lot of problems and "hate" of W/P comes from barbarians using them with Crit rage 1 & 2. So why not do what some on the forums, not me, have suggested in the past.

Make it so crit rage doesn't work on finessable weapons.

so it's dual wielding rangers only then, everyone else reroll now

[Baranor]

What does insult me is that not only is WoP biased in that direction, but the most effective and useful effect weapon type in the game (banishing) is also on piercing but not slashing weapons. IMO it is this fact that makes piercing spec really excessive. They get access to both of the fastest ways to kill trash mobs in our high end content - WOP rapiers and banishing rapiers.



I can only assume then that you would find my banishing rapier of puncturing extremely insulting lol, sorry I couldn't help myself

[Baranor]

The W/P superiority is a problem.

That being said, raising con scores is not the answer. Nor is raising hit dice.

If you raise con scores, fort saves go through the roof. If you raise hit dice, it starts affecting things like banish and other HD related spells (that generally suck anyway).

just lower base fort save to compensate

[Borror0]

To anyone in favor of nerfing WoP:

Do you agree that lowering the mobs HP would also solve the problem?
If so, why do you want to nerf WoP instead?

Thank you. Just curious. :)

[Shyver]

so it's dual wielding rangers only then, everyone else reroll now

I was simply responding to the plethora of complaints in regards to the posts in this thread. A large percentage of them were people not having an issue with w/p, but instead having an issue of barbarians with w/p.

For the record I have a twf pierce spec'd barbarian with w/p shortswords.

[Baranor]

To anyone in favor of nerfing WoP:

Do you agree that lowering the mobs HP would also solve the problem?
If so, why do you want to nerf WoP instead?

Thank you. Just curious. :)

I personally don't want to nerf wops, I just think some of the higher hp monsters should have better cons

[Borror0]

I personally don't want to nerf wops, I just think some of the higher hp monsters should have better cons
Don't you think caster are getting the short end of the stick in this situation, since nuking is so weak now?

[TheGladiator]

It's gotten to the point where in the high level quests if you have a party full of duel wielding WOP carries the quests are way to easy, and if you don't have anyone in the party with WOP they are too difficult. People are no longer taking down mobs by depleting hit points, but instead just reducing the con to 0. I propose that the effects for stat damage can only be applied to each mob once. So regardless of the number of times you hit with wounding only 1 point of con damage is done to a particular mob. The same would apply for any stat damage. Imagine if you ran a quest where the mobs were all duel wielding with WOP weapons. No one would run that quest because it's just silly to have that kind of stat damage going on in the game. WOP should be nerfed, and the quest difficulty should be adjusted accordingly.
Turbine please address this issue ASAP!


Here is a box of tissues :p

[Shima-ra]

Can we please nerf vorpals too while we're at it?
Cause too many ppl use it now.
can we nerf teamwork too? Its not fair to ppl who dont have that.

Serioulsy you guys are completly delusional about wop, its not that good.

nerf Paris Hilton too, she's just born rich, everyone should be equal.

[Baranor]

Don't you think caster are getting the short end of the stick in this situation, since nuking is so weak now?

I really can't comment on this as it relates to the new content as I havn't done most of the new quests, but I've certainly never considered my casters nuking ability weak. I mean should a caster be able to cast one spell and lay waste to everything in front of him. I don't think so, but I can certainly spam some stuff and ruin somebodies day.
Just to be clear my TWF barb only uses puncturing and crushes everything so it's not just wops. I just think that a well built dps toon with a good weapon should be able to kill stuff too.

[Baranor]

Can we please nerf vorpals too while we're at it?
Cause too many ppl use it now.
funny thing is that in a way they have been, mass death ward

Serioulsy you guys are completly delusional about wop, its not that good.

I'll just be polite and say your wrong

nerf Paris Hilton too, she's just born rich, everyone should be equal.
be careful, that smacks of socialism and going political will close this thread faster than you can George Bush end of an error I mean era

[Borror0]

I havn't done most of the new quests, but I've certainly never considered my casters nuking ability weak.
It comes down to how much HP does a mob have. Right now, it's just crazily insane.

I anyone feels like using Harm in the new content to figure out how much HP trash mobs haver, that would be cool data.

Just to be clear my TWF barb only uses puncturing and crushes everything so it's not just wops.
Agreed. Simply put, stat damage >> DPS.

[parvo]

Top three Broken things that have been added to DDO

1. Stat Damage Weapons most notably WoP
1.5 Stupid enemy Caster AI <<:confused:>>
2. Dodge Bonuses on Items
3. Greensteel and its ilk (Dragon Touched included)


just my opinion

Aesop

Just helping you out a bit there...

[dragonofsteel2]

Improvement is good. Too much in a short amount of time, from a small quantity that not everyone will posses isn't. The progression is too steep.

See the reality there is better weapons then cam make from green steel but the rare of them drops make it not much to look forward to. Greater banes with the right prefix and silver ect.. can do more damage. The improvement u talk about is not all that great if take in factors. 1. +5 transmitting weapons must be acid so in turn if that mob is immune to acid its just like +5 transmitting anything with slicing blow. 2. It does not become night and day grind the right greater bane with silver ect.. on it. So I do not believe that these weapons or to much improvement. The look great and flashy, but hell place a +5 trans. in my hand I do slight less damage then the shroud green steel weapon, place +5 holy silver greater bane in my hand, which can drop and will do more damage to the pit fiend then the trans. or any other weapon in there. So no these weapons or not more powerful just less of a grind then normal weapons to get.

[dragonofsteel2]

It is not because everyone has the possibility to wear them that they are fine.

As for the rest of your comment, do you mean we should "accept that the d20 system has flaws and move on"? If so, that is defeatist and not a good way to look at any problem.

Here just total miss my point, its not the dodge bonus items that is the problem. If everyone can gain the same dodge bonus items then it does not create a separation issue in AC. The separation issue already exist before the dodge bonus. Now if said the Icy Raiment dodge bonus create a problem I would have agree this is limiting who can gain benefit from it. 20d system is table system, it was not meant for MMO. It was not designed for MMO and works fine for table systems. The problem with 20d system on AC is that in order to hit pally/fighter/ranger with good ac means casters/dps barbs/ dps ranger get hit 95% time which creates no room for adjustments. This makes harder to create encounters. Please do not call me a name because disagree with my point "defeatist". What I like to think of my self is a realist. It does not mean the game can not be good it's just limit by the 20d system.

[dragonofsteel2]

Not rogues actually. Deflating the mobs HP would actually be the way to go.

Yes rogues to, sorry its easy enough to make damage dealing rogue if want that. Second if w/p is killing mobs 2 times faster then dps, then might be smart to equalize that to be near same to dps mobs as w/p mobs. I understand there will never be perfect balance but this is not a reason they should not try for it. One thing, I am starting to hate iin this game is wanting to go back change old material. Learn from what the players do and create new dungeons and new mobs. Keep it a challenge, keep use changing or tactics this what makes game fun, if ever mod comes out and can run up w/p every critter as the best tactic that is not very much fun.

[Borror0]

Greater banes with the right prefix and silver ect.. can do more damage.
...you realize how rare those are?

It takes around a +4 Holy Silver of Greater Bane to be equal to a Green Steel weapon.
So I do not believe that these weapons or to much improvement.
It's not only about the weapons.

It's about +45 HP, +150-300 SP, +6 UMD, etc. out of nowhere as well.

The look great and flashy, but hell place a +5 trans. in my hand I do slight less damage then the shroud green steel weapon
This is a joke, right?

Mineral II has:

+1,05-3,85 from base damage
+7 Holy
+2,5 Slicing

That is up to +13,5 more damage nearly all the time. And then, you may add acid damage once in a while.

That is not "slightly less". Sorry.

Here just total miss my point, its not the dodge bonus items that is the problem. If everyone can gain the same dodge bonus items then it does not create a separation issue in AC. The separation issue already exist before the dodge bonus.
You are the one not getting the point here.

Dodge bonus will create a wide gap. Actually, any rare gear will. That gap isn't between builds, but between playstyles. It's about how weaker a more casual player will be compared to a more dedicated player. The more dedicated will be stronger. There is got to be a reason for him to be stronger. Otherwise, why should he play so much?

However, that gap can become too big since we are in a d20 system.

That is the problem Dodge bonuses create. The gap gets too big and one cannot keep up anymore. Other gear do that too, but it can be addressed way more easily as it doesn't stack. Turbine sort of started to address that problem with their new dragontouched armor (and the new stacking rules regarding Dodge bonuses). We'll see how it goes in the future.

Please do not call me a name because disagree with my point "defeatist".
It seems you might want to look up the definition of defeatist if you think that it is name calling.

Defeatism is acceptance of defeat without struggle. It means one gives up, without looking at any possible solution. He just right away concludes that "we can't fix it". Then, it is not up to debate. Also, note that I didn't call you a defeatist, rather said your position was defeatist.

[Borror0]

Yes rogues to, sorry its easy enough to make damage dealing rogue if want that.
My comment was directed at Crippling Strike...

[Raiderone]

That sounds pretty cool. How bout you work on that, and when you have it ready, I'll roll up a toon on your server. Because we certainly don't want the devs to stop what they're currently doing to do this, do we?

Nope. Just wishful thinking. Just throwing it out there.

[Noctus]

The problem with 20d system on AC is that in order to hit pally/fighter/ranger with good ac means casters/dps barbs/ dps ranger get hit 95% time which creates no room for adjustments. This makes harder to create encounters.

Absolutely.
But it only becomes a problem with another DDO-uniqueness. Raising iterative attacks, instead of the lowered iterative attacks the BAB-system was balanced on.

In P&P, even if your AC is too low to help against a 1st attack, you can be sure that it will most propably make a diffference at the 2 or at least 3rd swing, as they are done with -5 / -10. While in DDO, idf you cant bring your AC to bear against the 1st swing, you can aswell forget about it completely, as the following attacks even land better!

[Borror0]

Absolutely.
But it only becomes a problem with another DDO-uniqueness. Raising iterative attacks, instead of the lowered iterative attacks the BAB-system was balanced on.
Mobs have static to-hit bonus.

[Aesop]

Mobs have static to-hit bonus.

Maybe they should give them decreasing bonuses ... or lower their bonuses and give them the same increasing that we have


Aesop

[Irked]

Ok this is all the CASTERS fault. To start the big issue is dps cant keep up, why? overinflated hp. where did the hp problem come in? Casters ability to nuke. Thats not fair cause thats the area of a caster they should be able to nuke something. But in core which this was based off of casters only get so many spells per day so even if they could drop some nasty overpowered firewall they could only throw a few and be spent. where now so that casters wouldnt complain about standing around got spell points with totals that far far far far go beyond anything a pnp gamer would be able to cast in a single day. so we not only left casters all pumped up on steriods with spells doing 1000+ per shot but we gave them the ability to throw them at dam near every mob in a mission by endgame. so cut back on casters ability to nuke either as powerful or as aften then deinflate the hp and it should balance out. but just saying that is ganna get me drawn and quartered by all the casters on kyber.

[Boldrin]

Don't nerf WoP, nerf the whiners who don't have one.

[maddmatt70]

Don't nerf WoP, nerf the whiners who don't have one.

So then we should hand out everbody WoP weapons then eh Boldrin. I have been playing this game since launch have looted millions of chests and never looted a w/p dagger, ss, rapier, heavy pick, or lt pick. I have also much more enjoyed playing slash specced characters such as Norg, my fighter with his dual wielding axes, who is not unlike your beloved pigsticker who dual wields khopeshes. When I lead a party in prey of the hunter I put Norg on the red named and tell whoever can w/p in there on trash not because that w/p guy couldn't wail on the red named with a different weapon set, but because Norg can't wail on the trash. In Sorjak I have not run him or my ranger (khopesh character) yet, but they will contribute far less on the trash then my buddy Cay with his w/p rapiers or Sal with his w/p picks that is just the way of it. I guess i could sell off a couple of characters and get myself some w/p gear and respec my characters to be piercers, but why the heck should I have to.

[arminius]

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo102/arminius256/Luigicopy.jpg

First photoshop ever! :D

[Borror0]

so cut back on casters ability to nuke either as powerful or as aften then deinflate the hp and it should balance out.
Yeah, that is what has to be done.

but just saying that is ganna get me drawn and quartered by all the casters on kyber.
Pretty much. Sad, eh?

[dragonofsteel2]

This is a joke, right?

Mineral II has:
+1,05-3,85 from base damage
+7 Holy
+2,5 Slicing
That is up to +13,5 more damage nearly all the time. And then, you may add acid damage once in a while.

That is not "slightly less". Sorry.

I hope you or joking buddy +5 greater bane damage starts +9 so the 2 you get for being a green steel weapons is nothing giving +5 greater bane on a kopesh lets say +13.5 avg. hit before adding damage mods. Please learn the game before you mention things not to mention a better to hit so not hitting on everything but 1. The holy would match the min. II two can make in shroud. Greater bane damage of 3d6 kill the 1d4 from slicing blow and who the world as good mellee does not already have the feat for the keen part. Now if say this weapon is the best use for all places item I would have to agree. Green-steel min II kopesh does 10.5 damage compare to 13.5 to greater bane that can pass dr.

So lets do math

+ 5 holy silver greater bane
+7 holy
+10.5 greater bane damage
+4.5 base kopesh damage
+4 for greater bane damage
+5 ench. bonus
= for you non math people 34 that without any modifiers.

Your min. II
+7holy
+2.5 slicing blow
+5.5 avg kopesh hit
+5 ench. bonus
= without the acid damage 20 with acid added still would not be a better weapons learn the game before you speak next time ))

[dragonofsteel2]

You are the one not getting the point here.

Dodge bonus will create a wide gap. Actually, any rare gear will. That gap isn't between builds, but between play styles. It's about how weaker a more casual player will be compared to a more dedicated player. The more dedicated will be stronger. There is got to be a reason for him to be stronger. Otherwise, why should he play so much?

However, that gap can become too big since we are in a d20 system.

That is the problem Dodge bonuses create. The gap gets too big and one cannot keep up anymore. Other gear do that too, but it can be addressed way more easily as it doesn't stack. Turbine sort of started to address that problem with their new dragon touched armor (and the new stacking rules regarding Dodge bonuses). We'll see how it goes in the future.

Quote:

Oh Wait we should limit the top gamers to getting dps weapons and other trinkets, basically limiting there choices because you do not like it? With the new armor the dodge bonus is the same bonus as the chattering ring because it acts like pld raid gear, and has always been that way. Why do think people do not wear two chattering rings?


It seems you might want to look up the definition of defeatist if you think that it is name calling.

Defeatism is acceptance of defeat without struggle. It means one gives up, without looking at any possible solution. He just right away concludes that "we can't fix it". Then, it is not up to debate. Also, note that I didn't call you a defeatist, rather said your position was defeatist.

You must be goofy if do not think name calling telling some that they have defeatist mind set. I know what it means first of all, and second I do not like people calling me it. Never in my post did I say that they can not work things out, but as long use limited system you or limited in what you can do ). From the very beginning they have been fighting balancing issues and every game does even with a better system. Although total miss my point with this anyway, its about the AC and dodge bonus argument. I say the problem is with the d20 system you say its with the dodge bonus. See if had 100d system 20 more ac would be 20% hit rate. Now with a 20d system its 95%. This give more flexibility. So what I really was doing was supporting my argument with this not saying oh dam this means you can do nothing in the world to save this system. ;).

So you want all high level top end AC builds do nothing but get more hp, and other little kewl things. Sorry all means then will get the best weapons and do more dps so does not even solve that problem for you.

[Cendaer]

learn the game before you speak next time ))

You were being so helpful and informative, why throw the _____hole attitude in there?

If no one spoke until they learned the game, a great many people wouldn't learn any of the game at all.

"Learn the game before you speak next time" ... /sigh ...

I thought new players were just being silly when I ask them why they don't intend to keep playing the game, and they tell me that most experienced players they try to discuss the game with are not nice at all and tend to be elitist, so they'd rather go play a game with fun people, rather than people with nasty attitudes.

Here I was thinking they were imagining things, and then I see "Learn the game before you speak next time" ... I guess those newbies were right about something after all.

[Chaos000]

In regard to the Wounding of Puncturing...

Wounding has already been nerfed. If you remember how tempest spine was run back in the day when the level cap was 10 and red-named were affected by stat effects...

It's really an argument between the haves and have-nots. And I feel that there should be one or two items in the game that inspire awe and recieve diminished value over time that can possibly drop for a casual gamer. A high crit rate Wounding of Puncturing rapier just happens to be one of them (monsters have way too high hit points anyway) it's not like it's a common drop nor is it easily acquired.

If you'd like I'm sure a dev would be more than happy to decrease the drop rate on those bad boys.

[Borror0]

I hope you or joking buddy
Go back and realize what I replied to.

You will notice your comment was "Place a +5 transmuter in my hands and I will do lsightly less damage than a Tier III weapon can do." This is why I asked if it was a joke or not. The gap between the two is really big. That's a DPS improvement of over 10%. I would not tag it of "slightly better", which you did.

Please learn the game before you mention things.
Being insulting only hurts your credibility.

So lets do math
There are error in your analysis, but that is not important (as it would favor the Greater bane anyway).

The fact is, how common would that weapon be? If such a weapon would exist, there won't be that many. It has very little effect on the game overall. However, what Green Steel weapons do is to make such a powerful weapon extremely common in comparison to the +5 Holy Silver Khopesh of Greater Evil Outsider Bane RR: Dwarf. By making it so common, the Developers have to balance for it. It inflates our strength.

Turbine does not balance for that rare +5 Holy Silver Khopesh of Greater Evil Outsider Bane RR: Dwarf you may have.

[Borror0]

Oh Wait we should limit the top gamers to getting dps weapons and other trinkets, basically limiting there choices because you do not like it?With the new armor the dodge bonus is the same bonus as the chattering ring because it acts like pld raid gear, and has always been that way.
Not sure I get what you mean here...

You seem to say "It is bad to limit the powergamers." However, you do not explain how that there is any limit to their choice nor do you explain how that is inherently bad. A lot of choices are good. One of the great strength of 3.5 D&D and DDO is the ability to customize your character. Players usually love to make their character their own and playing characters that play differently is a good way to make the same old content feel different.

However, not all choices are good. While it's good to encourage a lot of choices, some lead to situation you cannot approve, or limit the choices of another group.

A real life equivalent to that would be freedom versus law. While freedom is good there things you can't allow. These are banished by laws. In a way, some laws are hurting you freedom as they prevent you (or at least discourage you) to do something you would like to. That does not mean that law is should be removed.

Sometimes, you got to limit choices. It is the lesser of two evils, if we can say it that way.

Why do think people do not wear two chattering rings?
...because they don't stack?


Never in my post did I say that they can not work things out, but as long use limited system you or limited in what you can do. [...] I say the problem is with the d20 system you say its with the dodge bonus.
...but the problem IS with the doge bonus.

Or rather, the problem within the d20 system is emphasized by stacking dodge bonuses. I do agree with you that in a d100 system, the problem would be much less apparent that it is in DDO's d20 system. However, stacking Dodge bonuses and other hard to acquire AC boosting items make that problem way worse than it could be. As I stated earlier a small gap is worth having, in order to keep the more dedicated players' interest. However, if it gets too big, it gets problematic. Stacking Dodge bonuses contribute to making that gap wide and harder to keep within desirable levels.

Don't forget there are sacrifices made to achieve high AC.

So you want all high level top end AC builds do nothing but get more hp, and other little kewl things.
That is what we call a straw man.

Ideally, the Armor Class gap between casual and powergamers should be off by a few points but clearly not as much as it is now.

[Desteria]

I hope you or joking buddy +5 greater bane damage starts +9 so the 2 you get for being a green steel weapons is nothing giving +5 greater bane on a kopesh lets say +13.5 avg. hit before adding damage mods. Please learn the game before you mention things not to mention a better to hit so not hitting on everything but 1. The holy would match the min. II two can make in shroud. Greater bane damage of 3d6 kill the 1d4 from slicing blow and who the world as good mellee does not already have the feat for the keen part. Now if say this weapon is the best use for all places item I would have to agree. Green-steel min II kopesh does 10.5 damage compare to 13.5 to greater bane that can pass dr.

So lets do math

+ 5 holy silver greater bane
+7 holy
+10.5 greater bane damage
+4.5 base kopesh damage
+4 for greater bane damage
+5 ench. bonus
= for you non math people 34 that without any modifiers.

Your min. II
+7holy
+2.5 slicing blow
+5.5 avg kopesh hit
+5 ench. bonus
= without the acid damage 20 with acid added still would not be a better weapons learn the game before you speak next time ))

just a few things of note you used one of the few weaposn that dies up the WORST thus favorign the gtr bain more then in other cases:
For Eg a min2 dwarf axe would gain an aditional 3.5 damage on the comrason
A Gaxe or Gsword would gain an aditional 2.5 dmaage pn the comparison


As for the whole keen thing ACTULY that keen can be VERY relivent....
My STR ranger who OTWF wiht dule min2 kopeshes has IC pirce for all the effect weapons... I can fit the feat for kopeshes in but getitng a sesocnd IC is just not possible AND I'm even human.


That and as other pointed out I can craft dule min2's on a characters First shroud run at level 12, with a bit of luck and a group that does nto need shards, I havent exacly dont this BUT I've come VERY close took my monk 3-5 runs I belive for both kamas and his min2 hp item....
I have 5 min2 weapons amoung my characters atm...
I have NEVER EVER SEEN a +5 hoyl silver gtr bain drop or be on the AH... I play a fair amount I have 6 16's all workign towards 40th 60th or 80th shroud runs, most with 20 ro clsoe to 20 vod/hound runs, i frankly play to much.... To balace toward a weapon that basicaly does nto exist is silly.

[Maxum]

w/e dude my friend kills those silly giants 3 at a time solo with his tower and min.2 khopesh he doesnt even own a wounder there are people out there killin those tuff mobs with pure damage, just not you

[Desteria]

So then we should hand out everbody WoP weapons then eh Boldrin. I have been playing this game since launch have looted millions of chests and never looted a w/p dagger, ss, rapier, heavy pick, or lt pick. I have also much more enjoyed playing slash specced characters such as Norg, my fighter with his dual wielding axes, who is not unlike your beloved pigsticker who dual wields khopeshes. When I lead a party in prey of the hunter I put Norg on the red named and tell whoever can w/p in there on trash not because that w/p guy couldn't wail on the red named with a different weapon set, but because Norg can't wail on the trash. In Sorjak I have not run him or my ranger (khopesh character) yet, but they will contribute far less on the trash then my buddy Cay with his w/p rapiers or Sal with his w/p picks that is just the way of it. I guess i could sell off a couple of characters and get myself some w/p gear and respec my characters to be piercers, but why the heck should I have to.

Bah just caryr soem woundign slashers thats why i do mate, gruf not as godo in sorjek as a tWF pirc with dule WoP BUT i can work with them with my 1 Wounder ta least and stuff dies faster then if i was DPSign wich is usless when soem one else is wounding it WILL die to woundign first ;)

[Desteria]

w/e dude my friend kills those silly giants 3 at a time solo with his tower and min.2 khopesh he doesnt even own a wounder there are people out there killin those tuff mobs with pure damage, just not you

YOU can do that but it takes 3 and a hafl years per Giant.... Heck my THF specked STR fighter killes them faster swapign to S&B with a single plain old wounder it;s SAD how bad the difrence betwene HP and con is and there con isent to low there HP is just SILLLLLLY high.

[Maxum]

it takes you 3 years not my pal wow you just nerfed(ill say that instead of what im really thinking) yourself in front of everyone .... and btw that comment was for the op not you i didnt even read your post till you quoted me lol


yeeeehaaawwwww

[Desteria]

it takes you 3 years not my pal wow you just nerfed(ill say that instead of what im really thinking) yourself in front of everyone



yeeeehaaawwwww

I know my fighter is efective as efective as THF can be he out damages any thign S&B, though i admit a FULLLLY DPS specet pally while his Exalted smites and Devive STRS lasted would be CLOSE with a kopesh....

I bet same palyl woudl kill faster then he does noramly useign a wounder though....

Thats for the giants and stuff that also directed at the HARD mobs as you sadi wich mena NOT noraml dificulty con may scale up a bit but hp scales up a LOT faster....
The reason i say not normal as nothign is a hard mob on normal every dies in the blink of an eye ;)

[maddmatt70]

Bah just caryr soem woundign slashers thats why i do mate, gruf not as godo in sorjek as a tWF pirc with dule WoP BUT i can work with them with my 1 Wounder ta least and stuff dies faster then if i was DPSign wich is usless when soem one else is wounding it WILL die to woundign first ;)

Of course I carry wounders and use them but my melee contribution is half of cay w/p rapier set - that is just the way of it..

[Maxum]

wow i want some of what you are smoking there Des

[Desteria]

Of course I carry wounders and use them but my melee contribution is half of cay w/p rapier set - that is just the way of it..

aye mate soo true sadly. Heck gruf is 1/4 :( since untill i get a +5 dex tome I aint gona be TWFing :( :( :(

[Borror0]

Of course I carry wounders and use them but my melee contribution is half of cay w/p rapier set - that is just the way of it..
For records...

Wounding: 0,95 Con/swing
WoP rapier: 1,28 Con/swing
Wop rapier (/w Improved Critical: Piercing): 1,70 Con/swing
WoP rapier (/w Critical Rage II and Improved Critical: Piercing): 1,95 Con/swing

Yep. A pierce spec'd barbarian with WoP rapier and Improved Critical kills twice faster than a fighter with a mere Wounder...

[maddmatt70]

For records...

Wounding: 0,95 Con/swing
WoP rapier: 1,28 Con/swing
Wop rapier (/w Improved Critical: Piercing): 1,70 Con/swing
WoP rapier (/w Critical Rage II and Improved Critical: Piercing): 1,95 Con/swing

Yep. A pierce spec'd barbarian with WoP rapier and Improved Critical kills twice faster than a fighter with a mere Wounder...

Bah that math is wrong. wop rapier average nearly 2 per swing with 1 for wound and 1 for crit for punct which averages out to 1.05 so 2.05 for w/p rapier.. Not 1.28 of con damage..

[Aranticus]

Bah that math is wrong. wop rapier average nearly 2 per swing with 1 for wound and 1 for crit for punct which averages out to 1.05 so 2.05 for w/p rapier.. Not 1.28 of con damage..

wounding - 1 con per hit
puncturing - 1d6 con per crit (3.5 avg)

in 20 attacks, 19 hits, 3 crits (18-20), 1 miss
wounding - 19 con
puncturing - 10.5 con
total - 29.5 con = 1.475 con/swing

with imp crit, 19 hits, 6 crits, 1 miss
wounding - 19 con
puncturing - 21 con
total - 40 con = 2.000 con/swing

[DrgnMstr333]

The problem I have with people wanted stuff to be nerfed is that something is always going to be the best thing. If you nerf one thing, something else becomes the best. Then you nerf that. And so on and so forth...

Besides... Wops don't work on everything. Nothing works on everything. So Shut Up.

Also... The argument that its easy with wop and very hard without wop is a ridiculous one because that could be said about a lot of things in the game... Certain things are simply better in certain situations... there is nothing wrong with that.

[Borror0]

Bah that math is wrong.

Ya. I had a brain fart.

Wounding: 0,95 Con/swing
WoP rapier: 1,48 Con/swing
Wop rapier (w/ Improved Critical: Piercing): 2,00 Con/swing
WoP rapier (w/ Critical Rage II and Improved Critical: Piercing): 2,35 Con/swing

EDIT:

The problem I have with people wanted stuff to be nerfed is that something is always going to be the best thing.
It's a matter of scale and how much one thing should be better than its second best option.

Should a piercing spec'd two-weapon fighter be around four times better at killing trash mobs than a two-handed fighter?

[eonfreon]

Don't you mean:




It's a matter of scale and how much one thing should be better than its second best option.

Should a piercing spec'd two-weapon fighter, wielding a WoP, pretty much the rarest weapon in the game, be around four times better at killing trash mobs than a two-handed fighter?

I guess that's the question isn't it? About most items.
What should a rare item be worth in the value of the game.

[noinfo]

Should a 2 weapon fighter be killing mobs faster than a 2 handed fighter? All a matter of opinion but I think that yep, they should, they have double the special effects whether it is vorpal or wop or even just wounding. They have all invested pretty heavily to have that as well in feats and stats. BUT should they be so far in front or even being able to out DPS (as opposed to out kill) a 2 handed fighter is where I have a problem. It would be better if the 2 handed weapons had something along the lines of one and a half to double the effect, eg elemental effect of 2d6 or maybe 1.5 or 2 points of wounding. (at the same time they should be increasing the damage on the great sword to make up for the rediculously slow swing compared to axe).

[redoubt]

I hope you or joking buddy +5 greater bane damage starts +9 so the 2 you get for being a green steel weapons is nothing giving +5 greater bane on a kopesh lets say +13.5 avg. hit before adding damage mods. Please learn the game before you mention things not to mention a better to hit so not hitting on everything but 1. The holy would match the min. II two can make in shroud. Greater bane damage of 3d6 kill the 1d4 from slicing blow and who the world as good mellee does not already have the feat for the keen part. Now if say this weapon is the best use for all places item I would have to agree. Green-steel min II kopesh does 10.5 damage compare to 13.5 to greater bane that can pass dr.

So lets do math

+ 5 holy silver greater bane
+7 holy
+10.5 greater bane damage
+4.5 base kopesh damage
+4 for greater bane damage
+5 ench. bonus
= for you non math people 34 that without any modifiers.

Your min. II
+7holy
+2.5 slicing blow
+5.5 avg kopesh hit
+5 ench. bonus
= without the acid damage 20 with acid added still would not be a better weapons learn the game before you speak next time ))


Can you actually get a +5 silver holy greater bane weapon? I thought that was too many points.

[Aranticus]

Can you actually get a +5 silver holy greater bane weapon? I thought that was too many points.

+5 ML8, holy adds 4, gtr bane adds 6 = ML18, what are the chances of lootin a holy weapon, gtr bane, silver and is rr...... i prolly get 5 min 2 weapons 1st :eek::rolleyes::D

[Borror0]

Don't you mean
Not really. The question is about if such a weapon should be allowed to exist. Should this situation stay the same.In other words, are we OK that in some quests, there is a weapon that can that much more faster than others or should we do something about it.

But, without going in extreme, are we OK with:

TWF with wounders (not WoP, wounder) killing around twice faster than THF and S&B using a wounder.
THF with a wounder killing slower than S&B using a wounder.
S&B using a WoP rapier killing around as much as TWF using wounders.
TWF using WoP rapiers killing around twice faster as a S&B using a WoP rapier.
TWF using WoP rapier killing around four times than THF with a wounder.
THF not having access to WoP and thus being stuck that low.
Not having Improved Critical:Piercing means you loose 26% efficiency, if in possession of WoP rapiers.

Is any of that desirable?

Are we OK with some people having these weapons and being able to kill that fast?

[eonfreon]

Not really. The question is about if such a weapon should be allowed to exist. Should this situation stay the same.In other words, are we OK that in some quests, there is a weapon that can that much more faster than others or should we do something about it.

But, without going in extreme, are we OK with:

TWF with wounders (not WoP, wounder) killing around twice faster than THF and S&B using a wounder.
THF with a wounder killing slower than S&B using a wounder.
S&B using a WoP rapier killing around as much as TWF using wounders.
TWF using WoP rapiers killing around twice faster as a S&B using a WoP rapier.
TWF using WoP rapier killing around four times than THF with a wounder.
THF not having access to WoP and thus being stuck that low.
Not having Improved Critical:Piercing means you loose 26% efficiency, if in possession of WoP rapiers.

Is any of that desirable?

Are we OK with some people having these weapons and being able to kill that fast?

Well I can't speak for "us" and "we", but as far as "me", yes I am ok with it.
Provided WoP stays relatively rare and the game isn't balanced around it too much.
So, yes, I do believe they should exist as the game currently stands.
However, I would like to see something done to improve DPS Builds and lowering Hit Points or Creating DPS Feats would be nice if done right.
As far as the whole difference between TWF/THF/S&B rate; that needs some addressing of course.
I would like to see new Feats added to help those Styles and, even without new Feats, some tweaking is in order to improve their efficiency.
And the THF doesn't ever have to be behind the S&B guy when it comes to Wounding; it's called choosing your weapons for the occasion.
Nothing prevents the THF from putting down his Greataxe and going S&B with a Wounding Longsword/Shortsword/Dwarven Axe/ etc.
Then pick up his favorite Two-Hander when it's DPS versus the Red Named Time.
There is nothing that forces a THF and S&B into being separate entities except habit.
TWF requires building specifically and spending Feats.
THF only requires minimum stats and spending Feats to increase it's efficiency by a small margin, otherwise anyone can use a Two-Hander.
S&B requires absolutely nothing and anyone can pick up a shield and a One-Handed Weapon.
Of course anyone can also Dual-Wield, but the difference between someone who has invested Feats into it and someone who hasn't is so profound, that it makes a HUGE difference.
Not so for the other Styles.

[Borror0]

Well I can't speak for "us" and "we", but as far as "me", yes I am ok with it. [...] However, I would like to see something done to improve DPS Builds and lowering Hit Points or Creating DPS Feats would be nice if done right.
Let me the question differently then, are you OK with the situation if it is, by far, the best way to kill monsters?

Would you agree to a fix that would make DPS a much more potent way to kill trash mobs then it currently is? Would it be a good thing to you if WoP and DPS would be more or so equally valid/fast ways to kill trash mobs? In other words, do you support a change that would lower the mobs' HP enough for DPS to be used against trash mobs?

[eonfreon]

Let me the question differently then, are you OK with the situation if it is, by far, the best way to kill monsters?

Would you agree to a fix that would make DPS a much more potent way to kill trash mobs then it currently is? Would it be a good thing to you if WoP and DPS would be more or so equally valid/fast ways to kill trash mobs? In other words, do you support a change that would lower the mobs' HP enough for DPS to be used against trash mobs?
I don't think any nerfing of WoP is needed.
However, do I agree that a fix should be made to balance DPS?
In a word: "YES".
I don't even care that it would bring the "Nuker" Caster back.
Actually, I miss the Nuker anyway, and I believe it should be a viable play-style anyway.
However, if the Devs have balanced the current game with controlling the Nuker in mind and they are happy with the game, then they'll have to come up with some new re-balancing.
Perhaps instead of Lowering Mob Hit Points they could introduce and/or alter Feats to increase DPS.
Anyway that's just an idea and may require more resources than they have.
Personally, I think they should lower Mob Hit Points and do some testing, to determine exactly how that effects class balances.
Would be a great way to test some stuff on Risia:
Announce the Testing of Concepts (Lower Hit Points, Raised Cons, New Feats, Altered Feats, etc.) and allow Risia to test them out until they Make It or Break It.
None of this "Here's some new Content and Abilities We Have Already Finished and Are Allowing You To Preview Before It Goes Live".
But rather "Here's Some Ideas and Concepts We Have That We Hope Will Improve The Game, Let's Test Them Out and See What Sticks and What Stinks".
If they opened stuff like that in Risia, open to any who wanted to try it out on a Server that doesn't affect our precious hard-built Characters, and which can be wiped and reset to clean up and introduce new elements, I feel they would get a lot of interest and feedback.
And having it open to All would help ensure that more opinions are sampled rather than a closed off and secretive Test Server.
And when decisions are made concerning the changes, announcements are made clearly, with ample time given to all to decide how it will affect their builds, and make appropriate decisions on their current and future builds.
And if the Changes are very Different and Current Characters are severely effected (for good or ill) that a Respec Option of some kind is implemented.
Well, I can dream can't I?

[Boldrin]

So then we should hand out everbody WoP weapons then eh Boldrin. I have been playing this game since launch have looted millions of chests and never looted a w/p dagger, ss, rapier, heavy pick, or lt pick. I have also much more enjoyed playing slash specced characters such as Norg, my fighter with his dual wielding axes, who is not unlike your beloved pigsticker who dual wields khopeshes. When I lead a party in prey of the hunter I put Norg on the red named and tell whoever can w/p in there on trash not because that w/p guy couldn't wail on the red named with a different weapon set, but because Norg can't wail on the trash. In Sorjak I have not run him or my ranger (khopesh character) yet, but they will contribute far less on the trash then my buddy Cay with his w/p rapiers or Sal with his w/p picks that is just the way of it. I guess i could sell off a couple of characters and get myself some w/p gear and respec my characters to be piercers, but why the heck should I have to.

It wouldn't bother me at all if everyone had WoP weapons. I'm actually trying to acquire some now just to loan to guildies, lol. I don't personally need any more(7 is enough for me). Anyone who is not a twfer I just use wounding on. Simple as that. The only reason people are complaining is because they can't lead killcount with a WoP guy in the party. Who cares about killcount, I care about success, contribution is not measured in killcount(ask the cleric). The guy causing damage can keep the aggro while the WoP guy sneaks in and kills the big uglies. Then for bosses everyone switches to DPS... what's the big deal. Remember when vorpals were rare.... now they're a dime a dozen... some day WoPs won't be rare... and no one will complain then.

[Borror0]

I don't think any nerfing of WoP is needed.
Neither do I. It would be addressing the symptom, rather than the disease as SableShadow once said.

However, do I agree that a fix should be made to balance DPS?
In a word: "YES".
Glad we agree.

I don't even care that it would bring the "Nuker" Caster back.
Actually, I miss the Nuker anyway, and I believe it should be a viable play-style anyway.
Well, it would be a good thing to bring them back, but certainly not let them be as powerful as they were pre-Module 6.

None of this "Here's some new Content and Abilities We Have Already Finished and Are Allowing You To Preview Before It Goes Live".
But rather "Here's Some Ideas and Concepts We Have That We Hope Will Improve The Game, Let's Test Them Out and See What Sticks and What Stinks".
They got a place for that. It's called Mournland. Whether or not it fills the job is another topic...

[arcsonist]

Could I have your w/p you appaerntly dont appreciate the power of the darkside. sooner or later all those mobs will be immune to everything then what will you do, do you really want to beat on red names the entire time in a quest that will be fun I bet you there will be no clerics that will want to run anything. I bet if they nerfed weapons this game would go under in a matter of hours. Close this thread pls it makes me angry.




/mentock loots a +5 vorpal of maming longsword
/mentock says what vendor trash that effect does not work anymore.



maybe on the fourth of july followed by a stampede of wild elphants it might work.

[Borror0]

The only reason people are complaining is because they can't lead killcount with a WoP guy in the party. [...] I care about success
If you believe all the complaints are about players grumpy 'cause they can't lead the kill count, then you are wrong.

A big part of the complaints are about how much powerful WoP rapiers are. How much THF suck at killing trash mobs, etc, They don't care about kill count either. They care about success. They know they would be nearly twice more successful with a WoP rapiers than with wounders. They know they would be twice more successful with TWF than with THF. Put the to together and it's four times more successful.

Where's the justice in that? Why roll a not-TWF with IC:P if you are going to roll a melee?

There are tons of many issues that originate from the same source. It is much more than jealousy, Boldrin.

Some day WoPs won't be rare... and no one will complain then.
WoPs could be as common as a masterwork dwarven axe and there would be complaints about it.

[Boldrin]

If you believe all the complaints are about players grumpy 'cause they can't lead the kill count, then you are wrong.

A big part of the complaints are about how much powerful WoP rapiers are. How much THF suck at killing trash mobs, etc, They don't care about kill count either. They care about success. They know they would be nearly twice more successful with a WoP rapiers than with wounders. They know they would be twice more successful with TWF than with THF. Put the to together and it's four times more successful.

Where's the justice in that? Why roll a not-TWF with IC:P if you are going to roll a melee?

There are tons of many issues that originate from the same source. It is much more than jealousy, Boldrin.

WoPs could be as common as a masterwork dwarven axe and there would be complaints about it.

Well some of the wop guys aren't as effective at taking down the non stat damageable mobs.... thats where the THF Barbs and such come in. Everything has it's place.. people just have problems accepting their roles. I don't use WoP rapiers, I sell them as soon as I get them. I use ss and daggers. They work just fine, and I get 10 of them for the price of a WoP rapier :)

[Borror0]

Well some of the wop guys aren't as effective at taking down the non stat damageable mobs.... thats where the THF Barbs and such come in.
Some, yes.

However, we both know that between a TWF barbarian and a THF one, the TWF is going to lead both in DPS and trash mob killing.

[Boldrin]

Some, yes.

However, we both know that between a TWF barbarian and a THF one, the TWF is going to lead both in DPS and trash mob killing.

People always forget about glancing blows, that's a lil extra dps. It's not a twf ranger with favored enemy maxxed out damage, but not too shabby either.

[Hakushi]

I'm playing from the start, and I've yet to find a WoP rapier. It's a very rare weapon, and not much have one. I personally have no problems with these weapons and I'm getting tired to threads like this to call nerfs where it's not needed. From what I see, the problem is different.

As some people said, monsters seems to have way too many hps, but still not that high con. As they get higher, monsters seems to have a lot higher base hp, and their con hps dosn't matter much. I think this should be changed, give them less starting hps, but a lot higher con, it will take more time for people using wounders or WoP to kill the mobs because of their higher con value.

[Borror0]

People always forget about glancing blows, that's a lil extra dps.
Even when counting glancing blows, TWF still wins.

[Boldrin]

Even when counting glancing blows, TWF still wins.

Ok, stand in the middle of 6 or 7 mobs, swing your greataxe once with thf feats, add up damage and tell me that the total damage including what it's hitting the other mobs for doesn't add up to a twfer. People just don't play thfers properly

[Lehrman]

Ok, stand in the middle of 6 or 7 mobs, swing your greataxe once with thf feats, add up damage and tell me that the total damage including what it's hitting the other mobs for doesn't add up to a twfer. People just don't play thfers properly

27-31 damage*7 (mobs) =more than a twf and this does not include the damage on the main target--65-80. Break that down by time and in large melees, the THF outdoes the TWF...as well as sucks up the aggro...poor cleric.

27-31*1 mob+main damage will not exceed a twf on damage.

On my THF I generally do fine against twf for kill count--especially since my glancing blows can steal their kills:rolleyes:. I am about even for dps 2handers, but my kill count is usually half that of dual wielding wop user. You know what? IDC.

[Boldrin]

27-31 damage*7 (mobs) =more than a twf and this does not include the damage on the main target--65-80. Break that down by time and in large melees, the THF outdoes the TWF...as well as sucks up the aggro...poor cleric.

27-31*1 mob+main damage will not exceed a twf on damage.

On my THF I generally do fine against twf for kill count--especially since my glancing blows can steal their kills:rolleyes:. I am about even for dps 2handers, but my kill count is usually half that of dual wielding wop user. You know what? IDC.

Exactly my THF guy does just fine, can stand in the middle of a large mob and mow them all down, yes he'll need a heal or 2 but he'll kill em all quick. There is no imbalance between THF and TWF, just people play them improperly. They play THF guys like they're a TWFer.... tactics come into play.. god forbid..

[Gennerik]

Pardon me for just a second, but isn't charging into a group of monsters that could be picked off a few at a time the exact opposite of tactics? Yeah, a two-handed fighter will do more overall damage, but do you honestly have the AC as a two-handed fighter (when using a two-handed weapon) to not get hit almost every swing by every monster? By end-game, how often do you honestly fight large groups of monsters where you're not just trying to vorpal everything?

[Boldrin]

Pardon me for just a second, but isn't charging into a group of monsters that could be picked off a few at a time the exact opposite of tactics? Yeah, a two-handed fighter will do more overall damage, but do you honestly have the AC as a two-handed fighter (when using a two-handed weapon) to not get hit almost every swing by every monster? By end-game, how often do you honestly fight large groups of monsters where you're not just trying to vorpal everything?

If you're sitting at 500+ hps and charge a mob it makes healing easy, only 1 person to heal. and let the squishies get their kills by picking off stuff and not getting one shotted. Agro management is a tactic as well. But then again this whole thing has gone completely off topic. I say don't nerf anything the game is fine

[Borror0]

Ok, stand in the middle of 6 or 7 mobs, swing your greataxe once with thf feats, add up damage and tell me that the total damage including what it's hitting the other mobs for doesn't add up to a twfer. People just don't play thfers properly
So you are telling me your THF barbarian:

Find large group of mobs often.
Kills them with DPS.

...at end game?

[Gennerik]

If you're sitting at 500+ hps and charge a mob it makes healing easy, only 1 person to heal. and let the squishies get their kills by picking off stuff and not getting one shotted. Agro management is a tactic as well. But then again this whole thing has gone completely off topic. I say don't nerf anything the game is fine

I'll agree that aggro management is an important tactic. I have a high-HP Intimidate Two-handed Barbarian/Fighter, but I've normally found it better to not charge into groups of monsters. Normally you can fight them in small groups of 2 or 3, and it's normally better to ability damage them to death than use DPS unless they're red/purple.

It's not entirely off-topic, yet. But I'd say that Wounding of Puncturing weapons don't need to be nerfed so much as DPS needs to go back to being a viable way to kill something in a timely manner. And that means HP totals need to go back down to reasonable levels. If you could kill something using DPS as fast as you could deal ability damage to them, then Wounding of Puncturing wouldn't have nearly the following that it does.

[bobbryan2]

If you have not tried to run the quest with DPS weaponry, and then run it again with everyone using wounding or puncturing (Not even both!)... The difference is jaw-dropping.

Even with their so-called "resistance" to stat damaging, they absolutely disintigrate against con damage.

Yes, some weapons are powerful. Yes, some weapons are rare. But at the end of the day... there is a thing called "balance", which has to be thought of occasionally.

[Vizzini]

Just because some people have two WOP rapiers doesn't mean you should nerf it for the rest of us..

I think this sounds very unfair and selfish. Please consider the less than uber when making nerfs like this.

[bobbryan2]

Just because some people have two WOP rapiers doesn't mean you should nerf it for the rest of us..

I think this sounds very unfair and selfish. Please consider the less than uber when making nerfs like this.

Anyone that has a WoP rapier would fall into the uber category...

[Aranticus]

So you are telling me your THF barbarian:

Find large group of mobs often.
Kills them with DPS.

...at end game?

enter the kobold..... :rolleyes:

[Dracolich]

Like I said in an earlier post of mine. Why dont we fix everything in this game back to the basic rules. Why do you numbskulls enjoy picking and choosing what needs to be fixed? In my eyes the whole **** game needs fixed, its a conglomaration of house rules. You dont like the rules of the house play a different game. Get rid of Haggle, its not even in D&D. Fix UMD its overinflated difficulties make it impossible for my uncharismatic characters to be effective. Uncap Jump. Give us weapons that are ingame but we cannot weild IE the Halberd and Spear. Fix the Khopesh its still not the same damage as the PnP one.

You get my point fix all the other house rules if you are going to ask for this one to get fixed, otherwise you are a hypocryte.

There, I bumped this thread back to the top for you so everyone can see the ignorance of it.

[Dracolich]

Anyone that has a WoP rapier would fall into the uber category...

HAHA I love this. So I have a WoP rapier I am now Uber. I wish I would have known this. Tell it to the guys I ran the shroud with or the hound and ask them if I am uber. I will even laugh at that rediculous statment.

The Item does not make the character. The person behind the mouse does. Its unthinking statments like the above (statment not individualy) that make me and everyone laugh at the ignorance of it.

[Gunga]

HAHA I love this. So I have a WoP rapier I am now Uber. I wish I would have known this. Tell it to the guys I ran the shroud with or the hound and ask them if I am uber. I will even laugh at that rediculous statment.

The Item does not make the character. The person behind the mouse does. Its unthinking statments like the above (statment not individualy) that make me and everyone laugh at the ignorance of it.

Man, you're uber because you have lich in your forum name.

And..all this WoP stuff is nice, but I out killed a TWF WoP user in part 1 of the shroud. With my THF 28 pt Barb. Now tell me how this is possible if the WoP is too powerful?

[Dracolich]

Man, you're uber because you have lich in your forum name.

And..all this WoP stuff is nice, but I out killed a TWF WoP user in part 1 of the shroud. With my THF 28 pt Barb. Now tell me how this is possible if the WoP is too powerful?

Dangit Gunga you werent supposed to tell my secret!! I am going to have to hide my phylactery again.

[Desteria]

Man, you're uber because you have lich in your forum name.

And..all this WoP stuff is nice, but I out killed a TWF WoP user in part 1 of the shroud. With my THF 28 pt Barb. Now tell me how this is possible if the WoP is too powerful?

because he was doing his job hitting the portals and you were kill count hunting?
lol part 1 of the shroud if any of my melle get more then a token few kills somehting was wrong....

Adn kill count is often not about who is neccicarly better over the logn term onyl 2 peopel a wop usere will out kill a DPS person in most quests, however when you have 12 peopel runnign around some vorpign some woundign some DPSing it realyl just luck who gets the kills more often then not.....

[Gunga]

because he was doing his job hitting the portals and you were kill count hunting?
lol part 1 of the shroud if any of my melle get more then a token few kills somehting was wrong....

Adn kill count is often not about who is neccicarly better over the logn term onyl 2 peopel a wop usere will out kill a DPS person in most quests, however when you have 12 peopel runnign around some vorpign some woundign some DPSing it realyl just luck who gets the kills more often then not.....

You are very funny. He was on the kill team, I was hitting portals. He got his position on the kill team because he shouted that he dual wielded WoPs, and so the decision was made since I'm just a THF. I beat him by 18 kills and was on the portals the whole time.

[Dexxaan]

Shroud kill count....... fun example...just not a good one. (Actually most kill counts aren´t)

I did the same Out killing in Shroud last night on my L15 Cleric 7 Barbarian 6 Fighter 2 and with a greater Construct Bane Dwarven! of course Intimidating Mobs as they spawn by portals, Cleave followed by Great Cleave (power attack and raging) helps a ton.

[Gunga]

Shroud kill count....... fun example...just not a good one. (Actually most kill counts aren´t)

I did the same Out killing in Shroud last night on my L15 Cleric 7 Barbarian 6 Fighter 2 and with a greater Construct Bane Dwarven! of course Intimidating Mobs as they spawn by portals, Cleave followed by Great Cleave (power attack and raging) helps a ton.

Really? Where is better high level relevant content to test the theory that WoPs are too powerful?

[Aranticus]

Man, you're uber because you have lich in your forum name.

And..all this WoP stuff is nice, but I out killed a TWF WoP user in part 1 of the shroud. With my THF 28 pt Barb. Now tell me how this is possible if the WoP is too powerful?

like what drako mentioned, its the player not the gear. i did monastry for the 1st time today and my SnB fighter can out tops in kill count vs a ranger and a twf fighter. does that mean SnB > TWF?

seriously yours is a flawed argument

[Gunga]

like what drako mentioned, its the player not the gear. i did monastry for the 1st time today and my SnB fighter can out tops in kill count vs a ranger and a twf fighter. does that mean SnB > TWF?

seriously yours is a flawed argument

Actually, yours is the flawed example. You made the leap to ask if SnB > TWF, which is absurd really.

I just asked the simple question, "How can WoP be too powerful if I outkilled a dual wielding WoP user with a 28pt TWF?"

I do agree with you when you suggest that I'm a superior player, though.

[Aranticus]

Actually, yours is the flawed example. You made the leap to ask if SnB > TWF, which is absurd really.

I just asked the simple question, "How can WoP be too powerful if I outkilled a dual wielding WoP user with a 28pt TWF?"

I do agree with you when you suggest that I'm a superior player, though.

the question you should ask yourself is, "'will a 28 pt twf be able to outkill himself if switch to wops"

there are several factors which affects the use of wop

1. mob hp, high hp favors wop
2. ac, high ac favors dps (since most wop are +1/2)
3. con, high con favors dps
4. DR, high DR favor dps (seldom have wop able to penetrate DR)

in shroud u may get more kills due to the easily dps-ed trogs but in vod, vorpals and wop reigns due to the 5000 hp but 40 con mobs (50 attacks at 100 damage vs 20 attacks for 40 con total). same thing for hound

ps: i made that statement to highlight the fallacy in your argument

[Gunga]

the question you should ask yourself is, "'will a 28 pt twf be able to outkill himself if switch to wops"

there are several factors which affects the use of wop

1. mob hp, high hp favors wop
2. ac, high ac favors dps (since most wop are +1/2)
3. con, high con favors dps
4. DR, high DR favor dps (seldom have wop able to penetrate DR)

in shroud u may get more kills due to the easily dps-ed trogs but in vod, vorpals and wop reigns due to the 5000 hp but 40 con mobs (50 attacks at 100 damage vs 20 attacks for 40 con total). same thing for hound

ps: i made that statement to highlight the fallacy in your argument

I love critical thinkers who talk so much and so fast, they miss the basics. I out kill in the hound too. The mindflayers and renders really aren't that much tougher.

My simple message remains valid and intact: WoP's aren't game breaking. They are sufficiently powerful considering their rarity, but the job gets done without them, which is my only point. Maybe this will be clearer for you fancy thinkers:

NO NEED TO NERF WOPS.

[Aranticus]

I love critical thinkers who talk so much and so fast, they miss the basics. I out kill in the hound too. The mindflayers and renders really aren't that much tougher.

My simple message remains valid and intact: WoP's aren't game breaking. They are sufficiently powerful considering their rarity, but the job gets done without them, which is my only point. Maybe this will be clearer for you fancy thinkers:

NO NEED TO NERF WOPS.

did i mention that i want to nerf wop? i just pointed out the fallacy of your argument. again, you made the same mistake. outkill in hound? you are already making several assumptions there. stats can be easily determine the hp/con ratio for a wop to be significantly powerful. at this point of time, it is more powerful that most weapons due to the introduction of high hp/con ratio mobs

did i miss the basics? nope, i just merely pointed out how your argument did not fit into your statement

ps: no need to try to bait, most us here knows your style by now :rolleyes:

pss: just in case you missed it, i did point out that wops are not all powerful

[maddmatt70]

You are very funny. He was on the kill team, I was hitting portals. He got his position on the kill team because he shouted that he dual wielded WoPs, and so the decision was made since I'm just a THF. I beat him by 18 kills and was on the portals the whole time.

I propose that Turbine nerf Gunga he is much too powerful. It just isn't fair.

[AmsterdamHeavy]

Heh..

Saw an LFM up today on ghall..............

"must have WOP"


that just SUX

seeing lots of this on Thelanis too

[maddmatt70]

I have to tell this story. I led a sorjak run a few days ago and a melee asked to join. He had two mineral 2 weapons proudly on display. The sad thing was he used those two weapons throughout the entire quest. I even said over voice a couple of times not directly to him mind you but that wounders were by far the best weapons on the giants, but either he didn't have one or refused to pull one out. Even the thf fighter obviously pulled out a wounder. It was clear that the melee with the two mineral 2 contributed alot less on the trash mobs then the rogue and the thf fighter we had in the group. He should have at least had a set of +1 wounders for godsake.

[Borror0]

Now tell me how this is possible if the WoP is too powerful?
Easy. Bad sampling.

[Gunga]

Easy. Bad sampling.

Oh. If easy, please good sampling.

[Borror0]

Oh. If easy, please good sampling.
Honestly, Gunga, you are more clever than that.

My Intimitank out-kills TWF rogues, barbarians and rangers sometimes. Should I conclude my DPS and my killing capacity is better than theirs too? C'mon.

[Gunga]

Honestly, Gunga, you are more clever than that.

My Intimitank out-kills TWF rogues, barbarians and rangers sometimes. Should I conclude my DPS and my killing capacity is better than theirs too? C'mon.

Your position is confusing sometimes.

I think we can all agree that there are very good weapons in the game, and that weapon, regardless of what it is, is even better in the hands of a better player.

The reason why someone would complain that the WoP is too powerful is that they feel insufficient without one. My story about part 1 of the shroud, or the hound, is to illustrate that the WoP does not hinder your ability to be an effective killer. And so, there's no need for it to be nerfed.

[bobbryan2]

The reason why someone would complain that the WoP is too powerful is that they feel insufficient without one. My story about part 1 of the shroud, or the hound, is to illustrate that the WoP does not hinder your ability to be an effective killer. And so, there's no need for it to be nerfed.

Or someone has tried playing through quests both ways, and it's completely and utterly out of whack.

But sure, if it makes you feel better, it's because people are jealous that they don't have a WoP rapier.

[bobbryan2]

The fact of the matter is that W/P kills twice as fast as DPS against all but the squishiest trogs and other creatures.

Combine that with the fact that W/P only falls on puncturing weapons, and that's a bit of a problem.

Combine that with the fact that some classes are completely excluded from even using W/P rapiers (like monks) and it's more of a problem.

... I could go on... but I really think people are being purposefully hard-headed about it.

How about this for proof of the unbalanced nature of W/P rapiers... They have NO equal on the open market. They go for millions and millions and millions of plat. They are traded for entire trade lists that took a year+ to make. I've seen offers of dozens and dozens of large ingredients. 20+ large scales alone sometimes... enough to make dual lightning strike weapons for multiple characters.

But you're right.. they have that insane value because they're balanced correctly with DPS.

Riiiiight....

[Gunga]

Or someone has tried playing through quests both ways, and it's completely and utterly out of whack.

But sure, if it makes you feel better, it's because people are jealous that they don't have a WoP rapier.

Don't take it personally, Bobby, if I'm not quick to take your word for it. My dex ranger (with 28 str, so **** off), dual wields +3 WoPs. I know how powerful they are, but I don't feel that I need them on all of my characters to be relevent. Which is why I posted the part1 story about my 28pt THF.

People who don't have them have no need to be jealous.

People who have them don't use them exclusively.

NO NEED TO NERF WOPS.

[Borror0]

The reason why someone would complain that the WoP is too powerful is that they feel insufficient without one. My story about part 1 of the shroud, or the hound, is to illustrate that the WoP does not hinder your ability to be an effective killer. And so, there's no need for it to be nerfed.
It's not because you still can complete the quest without one that there is no problem.

[bobbryan2]

Don't take it personally, Bobby, if I'm not quick to take your word for it. My dex ranger (with 28 str, so **** off), dual wields +3 WoPs. I know how powerful they are, but I don't feel that I need them on all of my characters to be relevent. Which is why I posted the part1 story about my 28pt THF.

People who don't have them have no need to be jealous.

People who have them don't use them exclusively.

NO NEED TO NERF WOPS.

I'm not taking it personally. I just think W/P were borderline broken in mod 5-6. With Mod 7, it's ludicrous. W/P the devils in the shroud and subterrane was always much faster and less resource intensive than any other weapon... but the gap wasn't that big because vorpals worked, FoD worked, etc. There were other methods. Even with those creatures DPS was a stupid concept.

But then Mod 7 comes along, and it leaves W/P untouched, but takes away FoD and vorpal.

Imagine having to DPS all the orthons and bearded devils in the shroud, unless you had W/P.

The difference would be astonishing, and that's what we're getting here. The problem isn't necessarily that W/P were made even more powerful this mod. It's that every other method that even came in the same ballpark as W/P has been taken away.

Ultimately, it's the fact that vorpals and the like were nerfed and W/P wasn't.

[Gunga]

It's not because you still can complete the quest without one that there is no problem.

No kidding, Sherlock. I never said that.

My educated opinion is that there is no need to nerf WoPs.

But, if you nerf them, or take them completely out of the game, I'll out kill the **** out of you.

[Gunga]

I'm not taking it personally. I just think W/P were borderline broken in mod 5-6. With Mod 7, it's ludicrous. W/P the devils in the shroud and subterrane was always much faster and less resource intensive than any other weapon... but the gap wasn't that big because vorpals worked, FoD worked, etc. There were other methods. Even with those creatures DPS was a stupid concept.

But then Mod 7 comes along, and it leaves W/P untouched, but takes away FoD and vorpal.

Imagine having to DPS all the orthons and bearded devils in the shroud, unless you had W/P.

The difference would be astonishing, and that's what we're getting here. The problem isn't necessarily that W/P were made even more powerful this mod. It's that every other method that even came in the same ballpark as W/P has been taken away.

Ultimately, it's the fact that vorpals and the like were nerfed and W/P wasn't.

NEWSFLASH: Vorpals are faster for high hitpoint mobs.

If anyone is jealous that they don't have a WoP for Orthons and BeardOs, I'll be handing out vorpals at the vendor.

[Borror0]

No kidding, Sherlock. I never said that.
No, you actually did say that:


My story about part 1 of the shroud, or the hound, is to illustrate that the WoP does not hinder your ability to be an effective killer. And so, there's no need for it to be nerfed.

[...] if you nerf them, or take them completely out of the game
I don't want them nerfed. I want the mobs' HP nerfed.

[bobbryan2]

NEWSFLASH: Vorpals are faster for high hitpoint mobs.

If anyone is jealous that they don't have a WoP for Orthons and BeardOs, I'll be handing out vorpals at the vendor.

Newsflash... vorpals don't work on the giants in Prey on the Hunter, making your only two choices DPS or W/P.

Or did you even catch on to why this thread is existing?

Seriously... you're here arguing that W/P are fine just because you can outkill trogs.... TROGS!

[Gunga]

No, you actually did say that:
I don't want them nerfed. I want the mobs' HP nerfed.


It's not because you still can complete the quest without one that there is no problem.

Ok. You read my posts, and you think that I said that WoPs aren't too powerful, because you can complete a quest without them.

I didn't say that, but I understand you about as much as you understand me.

If you nerf mob hitpoints, it only makes the WoPs more powerful, and it unbalances so many other things that it's hardly worth the debate.

I'm glad that we both agree that there's no need to nerf WoPs.

[bobbryan2]

If you nerf mob hitpoints, it only makes the WoPs more powerful, and it unbalances so many other things that it's hardly worth the debate.

I'm glad that we both agree that there's no need to nerf WoPs.

Seriously? How does making DPS a more viable option make W/P more powerful?

[Borror0]

If you nerf mob hitpoints, it only makes the WoPs more powerful, and it unbalances so many other things that it's hardly worth the debate.
It would NOT make WoP more powerful but rather DPS less gimped! It could make of nuking a decent strategy again. The danger would that it could bring it to the nuking back to its module 5 level, but it proper playtesting that could be avoided. But beside the danger to bring the module 5 nuker, there would be no more unbalance created by that change.

Or did I miss something?

[Gunga]

Newsflash... vorpals don't work on the giants in Prey on the Hunter, making your only two choices DPS or W/P.

Or did you even catch on to why this thread is existing?

Seriously... you're here arguing that W/P are fine just because you can outkill trogs.... TROGS!
Is your name Bobby?


Imagine having to DPS all the orthons and bearded devils in the shroud, unless you had W/P.

Do you remember saying that, or did Ryan post that?

[bobbryan2]

Do you remember saying that, or did Ryan post that?

You said lowering HP mobs would make W/P more powerful. Seeing as how W/P doesn't work off mob HP, and DPS does, that would make DPS more powerful, leaving W/P the same as it currently is.

The end result of which is to make DPS a more viable option.

[Gunga]

You said lowering HP mobs would make W/P more powerful. Seeing as how W/P doesn't work off mob HP, and DPS does, that would make DPS more powerful, leaving W/P the same as it currently is.

The end result of which is to make DPS a more viable option.

Don't do any damage with those WoPs? My characters do, but maybe that just goes in the better player catagory.

[bobbryan2]

Don't do any damage with those WoPs? My characters do, but maybe that just goes in the better player catagory.

That's the only plausible explanation, you're right.

[Gunga]

That's the only plausible explanation, you're right.

And now we agree. Today's a good day.

[Blagrak]

Don't do any damage with those WoPs? My characters do, but maybe that just goes in the better player catagory.

Would you seriously pull out dual WoPs if you were trying to DPS something to death? Given a player that isn't seriously beyond hope, wouldn't dual elemental/holy/whatever burst weapons be better better than WoPs on DPS basis?

Or maybe you're saying it's a race right now as far as what kills first - the DPS from your WoPs or their con damage?

[Gunga]

Would you seriously pull out dual WoPs if you were trying to DPS something to death? Given a player that isn't seriously beyond hope, wouldn't dual elemental/holy/whatever burst weapons be better better than WoPs on DPS basis?

Or maybe you're saying it's a race right now as far as what kills first - the DPS from your WoPs or their con damage?

You won't do con damage if you're dual wielding LigII's, but a couple shocking burst of puncturing rapiers might be quicker, if the LigII's don't proc often enough.

But if we're talking about a race because there are enough variables to offset the outcome, than why would we nerf anything?

[RigorAdar]

The fix, if any is needed, for WoP is simple. Make con dmg the same as any other stat dmg. If you get em to 0 on any stat then they are disabled and auto critted.

[redoubt]

I have to tell this story. I led a sorjak run a few days ago and a melee asked to join. He had two mineral 2 weapons proudly on display. The sad thing was he used those two weapons throughout the entire quest. I even said over voice a couple of times not directly to him mind you but that wounders were by far the best weapons on the giants, but either he didn't have one or refused to pull one out. Even the thf fighter obviously pulled out a wounder. It was clear that the melee with the two mineral 2 contributed alot less on the trash mobs then the rogue and the thf fighter we had in the group. He should have at least had a set of +1 wounders for godsake.

Wow....

[redoubt]

Ok. You read my posts, and you think that I said that WoPs aren't too powerful, because you can complete a quest without them.

I didn't say that, but I understand you about as much as you understand me.

If you nerf mob hitpoints, it only makes the WoPs more powerful, and it unbalances so many other things that it's hardly worth the debate.
I'm glad that we both agree that there's no need to nerf WoPs.

Not if their con remains the same.

Then the time to kill them by con stays the same, but the time to kill them with DPS goes down...