Hound Changes - is it just me?

[Sirea]

After trying to run Hound three times in the last two days using tried-and-true strategy of intimitank/kill team and failing miserably, it's become apparent that there have been changes to Hound that I don't think were particularly necessary. But I could just be imagining things too.

Things I've noticed:
-The Keeper mind flayers spawn MUCH less, to where you can't charm the little dogs then run around and get another set of stones for backup when they break. They don't seem to spawn until the little dogs are about to break, then you have to run around frantically for stones while not killing the little dogs.

-Many more renders seem to spawn, and sooner, and from more portals than east and south. Crowd control set-up (ie solid fogs) in the east is not nearly as effective as it was before.

-Beholders seem to spawn MUCH sooner and with more frequency. Used to be they wouldn't start spawning until you used the second set of stones, but now they spawn during the first set of stones.

My question is, why tweak Hound? It has a good, sound strategy to it, there's something for everyone to do, everyone has a role and can help out. No twinks, no pikers; it's a good solid raid. And it used to be one of my favorites. But sadly I'm discouraged after six or seven party wipes (because you know if u wipe once in Hound you usually try again), trying different strategies, different difficulties (because the first one was Epic, we thought maybe that was why, but the same problems persist on all difficulty levels). I'm sure once we figure out how to work around the changes (if indeed they are permanent changes and not glitches) Hound will be fun again. But right now I'm kinda shying away from it until we can figure out how to handle everything...

[Talcyndl]

Per a Developer post in response to a similar thread, one acknowledged change is that the Hound now has the intended size (Gargantuan IIRC) and that size is figured in the Intimidate check.

[tihocan]

I think it's nice it's harder, since it was too easy before.
I'm not sure yet how I'd rate the changes though. Only ran it once, I was in the middle, so I only noticed the lack of charming stones... definitely added to the stress factor ;)

[GlassCannon]

I think it's nice it's harder, since it was too easy before.
I'm not sure yet how I'd rate the changes though. Only ran it once, I was in the middle, so I only noticed the lack of charming stones... definitely added to the stress factor ;)

Then again you likely play this game every single day instead of one day a week, for maybe 6 hours. The maintained skill level you likely portray as a symptom is vast in comparison to a weekend gamer. That, and you have equipment coming out your ears.

[tihocan]

Then again you likely play this game every single day instead of one day a week, for maybe 6 hours. The maintained skill level you likely portray as a symptom is vast in comparison to a weekend gamer. That, and you have equipment coming out your ears.
Hmm not really. Although I do check the AH every day, but believe me, it's a bad habit, more likely to get you broke than anything else :p

[maddmatt70]

I have noticed two definite changes in VOD as well - this is on elite. 1. Sulu has a much higher to-hit. Really only the highest of high ac characters can tank him exceedingly well and make him miss a great deal (basically a 6 ranger monk splash rest whatever with all the gear and all the buffs will still get hit 10-20% of the time). Having barbarians with their high dr and more hit points or just high hit point characters is a much better option then it was in the past for tanking sulu. 2. Sulu has more hit points so the fight takes longer.

[Isssssa]

Previously, the hound was balanced. normal was easily pugable while epic took a solid well balanced group to complete. It was how a raid should be.

[Samadhi]

Previously, the hound was balanced. normal was easily pugable while epic took a solid well balanced group to complete. It was how a raid should be.

Although amusingly, most PUGs seemed BARELY capable of doing it on norm, as sad as this is. I can't even imagine PUG-ing this raid now - and quite frankly see myself avoiding it entirely unless it's primarily people I know from this point out.

[Sirea]

Used to be even if you had a PUG group, if everyone knew their role then it'd be cake. If you had a couple solid people for kill team, preferrably paladins and a bard, a good intimitank, a caster for buffs/crowd control and two or three decent clerics then you were set.

Intimidate's not the problem, it's the increased mobs and decreased spawning of Keepers that's the problem. Like I said before, it probably just involves a tweak in strategy. But unfortunately it'll be a while before the improved strategy trickles down to people like me who only raid once or twice a week.

[sephiroth1084]

Ran this twice yesterday on normal. First time we wiped, but that was more from people not knowing their roles and from indistinct leadership and directions. Second time around it was my group, and I made sure to include more instructing before passing the mantle to someone with more experience (this was my first time running it post-Mod 8, though I was somewhat prepared, having read the forums regarding the changes...thank you).

It was a little rough in places, but we got a completion without TOO much trouble. Certainly more difficult, which, I for one, have mixed feelings about. I normally run this as a PUG, and before the changes my success rate was between 50 and 75%. Now, I anticipate it going lower than that.



To contribute otherwise, I noticed that the bees are more automatic now. I'm usually the intimitank in the middle, and before the patch I rarely got the bees (haha, that sounds funny). These two times through, it seemed like I couldn't avoid getting them. I wasn't paying attention to my saving throws, but I'd have had to be rolling abysmally across two runs in order to have been hit successfully with the bees so many times unless they raised the numbers on that as well. (saves are all 30+ with buffs, fort might be around 40).

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

I've only ever pugged, and I never saw a failure on the hound before mod 8. It was always boring, and short. If you were not a charmer, the tank or a cleric, you likely spent most of the quest doing absolutely nothing.

It's a much more interesting and balanced situation now.

[Kronik]

glad to see this post. I though it was just me after failing 2 times in a row this weekend!

[Rog]

Although amusingly, most PUGs seemed BARELY capable of doing it on norm, as sad as this is. I can't even imagine PUG-ing this raid now - and quite frankly see myself avoiding it entirely unless it's primarily people I know from this point out.

i pug the raid every 3 days most pugs dont have the uberness to do hard, but i am going for 20. i did change my strat. to conform with the new raid standards but on normal i can take a first time pugger raid and complete it everytime normal still a pretty easy raid!
mojomuscle

[Newtons_Apple]

Although amusingly, most PUGs seemed BARELY capable of doing it on norm, as sad as this is. I can't even imagine PUG-ing this raid now - and quite frankly see myself avoiding it entirely unless it's primarily people I know from this point out.

/signed I'm just glad I got my rogue and barb their chain shirts, my cleric his necklace and my caster his ring...

[suitepotato]

I have noticed two definite changes in VOD as well - this is on elite. 1. Sulu has a much higher to-hit. Really only the highest of high ac characters can tank him exceedingly well and make him miss a great deal (basically a 6 ranger monk splash rest whatever with all the gear and all the buffs will still get hit 10-20% of the time). Having barbarians with their high dr and more hit points or just high hit point characters is a much better option then it was in the past for tanking sulu. 2. Sulu has more hit points so the fight takes longer.

This is likely because Sulu just got married and his self-esteem is a lot higher. Consequently, he's much more on the ball, and liable to fight better, much like that time he ran around stripped to the waist and brandishing a rapier.

[Newtons_Apple]

This is likely because Sulu just got married and his self-esteem is a lot higher. Consequently, he's much more on the ball, and liable to fight better, much like that time he ran around stripped to the waist and brandishing a rapier.

It's real nice you have such a romantic view of marriage. More than likely he's actually really ****ed off, since he didn't spot the little clause his dearly betrothed snuck into his pre-nup giving her absolute dominion over all kobolds...

[Osharan_Tregarth]

Per a Developer post in response to a similar thread, one acknowledged change is that the Hound now has the intended size (Gargantuan IIRC) and that size is figured in the Intimidate check.

Ummm.. That size penalty had always been there. The dev was just confirming that it was due to size differences, and not some other arcane thingamabobber.

[Impaqt]

Ummm.. That size penalty had always been there. The dev was just confirming that it was due to size differences, and not some other arcane thingamabobber.

QFT.

DDO has always factored size intoIntimidate checks.. Well. For as long as I've been playing an Intimitank anyway.. (Little over a year with my Intimitank)

THe hounds Intim DC was significantly increased(What Does Intim Check against? The intimee's Intim Skill?) with Mod 8.

Bumped rediculously high IMO. I fail to see why the devs felt it necessary to take aqway this more than reasonable tactic in this raid. My Intimitank used to fail only on a 3.. Now I gotta roll a 16 or so.....

[MrCow]

What Does Intim Check against? The intimee's Intim Skill?


Monster's Hit Dice + Monster's WIS modifier + Monster's Size
vs.
Your Intimidation skill + 1d20 roll

Considering a few things I have heard and know I'm guessing they bumped up Xyzzy's WIS by about 25. The evidence being:


Renders and some other evil outsiders use WIS as a casting stat (even though it is normally CHA for innate casting).
The DC of bees, horrid wilting, and other things went up on Xyzzy.
The Intimidation DC is now higher.

[TreknaQudane]

QFT.

DDO has always factored size intoIntimidate checks.. Well. For as long as I've been playing an Intimitank anyway.. (Little over a year with my Intimitank)

THe hounds Intim DC was significantly increased(What Does Intim Check against? The intimee's Intim Skill?) with Mod 8.

Bumped rediculously high IMO. I fail to see why the devs felt it necessary to take aqway this more than reasonable tactic in this raid. My Intimitank used to fail only on a 3.. Now I gotta roll a 16 or so.....

I'd probably guess will save

[Rog]

QFT.

DDO has always factored size intoIntimidate checks.. Well. For as long as I've been playing an Intimitank anyway.. (Little over a year with my Intimitank)

THe hounds Intim DC was significantly increased(What Does Intim Check against? The intimee's Intim Skill?) with Mod 8.

Bumped rediculously high IMO. I fail to see why the devs felt it necessary to take aqway this more than reasonable tactic in this raid. My Intimitank used to fail only on a 3.. Now I gotta roll a 16 or so.....

I know why p becouse if they did not take away that we would let the intem tank keep his aggro after we super buff the dogs and keep you alive with mass heals so the big doggy does not eat his puppys that they made weaker and easier to kill now it is quite the challege to keep the muts alive untill they are super buffed enough not to die u get 4 stone now and figue on loosing the first dog unless the cleric is **** hot.

[Voalkrynn2]

It's real nice you have such a romantic view of marriage. More than likely he's actually really ****ed off, since he didn't spot the little clause his dearly betrothed snuck into his pre-nup giving her absolute dominion over all kobolds...

Maybe she cut off his access to the portal or increased the timer to reset his access if you get my meaning.............

[Junts]

Charm two dogs, dont let your dogs die for any reason.

Good clericing is now at a premium

It was stupid that the 2nd easiest raid in the game was level 18. I have no problem with a tweak to it (it will be easy once everyone gets the changes down). Even the Queen killed more people than a well run hound raid lost (though at least the hound required more people).

It was easy to pike 3-4 underpowered toons through this raid. Now it isn't. Good. :)

[Pyromaniac]

It is a real shame that a raid that was accessible to casual players was made difficult to the point that is no longer possible to run a pure pug.

Sure it wasn't hard on normal, but it was something just about any player could do at cap. If you're going to 'fix' a raid why not abbott?

[weyoun]

It is a real shame that a raid that was accessible to casual players was made difficult to the point that is no longer possible to run a pure pug.

Sure it wasn't hard on normal, but it was something just about any player could do at cap. If you're going to 'fix' a raid why not abbott?

What he said. Pug hounds are nasty.

[Dexxaan]

If you aren´t a bit selective....any PUG is nasty.

Hound changes will just set this in stone and selectivity will become more important.

The silver lining? Well IMO (and experience) when Gianthold came out and the bar was lowered with the Loot Drop mechanic changed & farmability of Raid loot...... Guilds were weakened greatly. Changes such as this one are going to srengthen the need and ability of Guilds to become bastions of talent.

And of course something else will change in a week or so and the pendulum shall sway.........

[lostx]

If you were able to pug it before, there is nothing stopping you from making this a 7 min snooze fest. Use the same basic strategy as before:

1 guy in middle to hold argo with clerics (intim or solid fog clickie)
rest of party roam to left.
designate a non-noobie to pick up 1st 3 stones. preferbly bard or caster.
when he has 3 stones, he goes to middle to charm and buff dogs.
fog the entrance ways to the center, no aoe in outter halls.
designate a non-noobie to pick up 4th stone.
after 4th stone is picked up, everyone goes to middle.

Its really important to get to the middle as quick as possible with 3 stones and buff charmed dogs.
minimum buffs are haste and mass bulls.

When you see the 1st dm text on screen, gather in center of room for fresh haste.

half the times i run the raid, izzy is vulnerable before the first set of charmed dogs break.

If she is not vulnerable use the 4th stone to charm a dog.

Now you need to control the other 2 uncharmed dogs until izzy is vulnerable. I like to enervate and flesh to stone them. If you kill them they will just respawn. You could also have a tank get their argo and kite them around.

[Renegade66]

Bumped rediculously high IMO. I fail to see why the devs felt it necessary to take aqway this more than reasonable tactic in this raid. My Intimitank used to fail only on a 3.. Now I gotta roll a 16 or so.....

Yep, you give up a lot to maximize an intimidation tank. Not sure why you have to nerf it for the few places where it really makes a difference. It was already scaling correctly with elite being really tough, now a max intim build still misses on normal.

[miceelf88]

Well, I've been in good and bad pug hounds (not many of either, pretty casual player). Two of them failed miserably. The most recent one succeeded very well.

The ones that failed had the "charm two dogs and only two" strategy. Then keep the two up. It just didn't work. They just died, and pretty quickly.

The one that succeed really well, we charmed all three, as close to simultaneously as we could, and then buffed the heck out of them, then did our best to keep em healed. And we kept em up. By the time they broke, and we had charmed one of the dogs again, the big dog was worn down enough for a beat down.

I am not saying that the two charm approach is a bad one. Perhaps the groups I was in simply didn't execute it properly. I just know that the most successful I saw was the three dog approach, and not clear on the advantages of the two. Probably missing something.

(I'm a warchanter, so I was on middle room duty, hasting and blurring and singing. First few times through, a little intimidating in terms of the responsibility, at least for me).

[Voalkrynn2]

never had a successful run here, vod, or shroud all run on normal diff. these raids are out of control........

[Junts]

Well, I've been in good and bad pug hounds (not many of either, pretty casual player). Two of them failed miserably. The most recent one succeeded very well.

The ones that failed had the "charm two dogs and only two" strategy. Then keep the two up. It just didn't work. They just died, and pretty quickly.

The one that succeed really well, we charmed all three, as close to simultaneously as we could, and then buffed the heck out of them, then did our best to keep em healed. And we kept em up. By the time they broke, and we had charmed one of the dogs again, the big dog was worn down enough for a beat down.

I am not saying that the two charm approach is a bad one. Perhaps the groups I was in simply didn't execute it properly. I just know that the most successful I saw was the three dog approach, and not clear on the advantages of the two. Probably missing something.

(I'm a warchanter, so I was on middle room duty, hasting and blurring and singing. First few times through, a little intimidating in terms of the responsibility, at least for me).


The advantage of two is being able to recharm two right away, and not having a situation where you recharm, lose your dog and are screwed (or worse, wehre the other two uncharmed focus on the one you recharmed, capture its aggro instead of Xyzzy, etc)

To do it that way, though, its important that the clerics focus exclusively on your dogs, as we've had issues getting constnat healing on them and I'm starting to think assigning the bard to scrollheal exclusively after buffing would be a good idea. Its also got less margin for error as you almost have to kill the 3rd dog repeatedly and so you have no spares if you lose one - in any case, losing a dog is now a wipe, becuase you can't afford to lose the stone. People have toa djust to healing both dogs faster because of bees working better, etc and can no longer just scrollheal it exclusively. The dogs do go down faster, that's for sure.

I think 3 and 1 is just dangerous though, I have yet to try it that way, but it seems far too easy to have your two buffed up dogs distract the charmed one, etc.

Tonight we had issues with running out of stones (dogs got allowed to die) and were able to recover by having our chewtoy recapture X'yzzy while new stones were acquired. With her intimidate DC as it is, I do not advise this method - we lost 3 party members while I chased her incredibly fast self around and took 5 rolls to intimidate her with hte DC as iti s and the -12 penalty.

We were very lucky to complete - all our melees except myself and one other were down and I was able to pummel her without being overrun for a change to take out her last 5% or so singlehandedly.