I'll never defend Turbine again.

[theblaz]

First, let me start by apologizing to anyone who has criticized this game only to see me defending it and arguing with you.

Honestly, I'm sorry.

I've defended this game because my old PnP group was playing it, and because we met some cool people in the game. We all had fun doing our thing. We were so not uber, it was almost crazy. I'm done only 3 raids ever (VoN, Shroud, Reaver). Two capped characters, my main is still my first 28 pt build. Less than 2000 favor.

Our loot runs are From beyond the grave, sleeping dust, vale rares. Nothing special. A month ago I went ape**** when I won the Reaver Napkin on my main.

I say all that to give you an idea of how I play the game and how I'm not burned out, how I'm not at the very very end waiting for new content. I'm not a hardcore raider, I'm very casual.

Tonight, I've almost certainly made up my mind to leave the game.

First, we did the Shroud. Pug group, competent people. A couple of whiny people, but I expected nothing less (I know their guilds; bunch of crybabies). It was at least 5 times harder than it was before Mod 8. I had a 22k repair bill. It took us around 2 hours.

Yeah, I know uber people can beat it in 16 minutes, super duper. Don't care, shut up. This isn't about how awesome you are, this is about how a casual player with several good friends in the game is ready to leave when, yesterday, he spent much time defending this game.

So it took forever but we beat the Shroud.

Let's do reaver!

Yeah. Elite, wipe in like 2 minutes.

On normal, we manage to make it to the puzzle.

I'm the solver. I've spent hours practicing. I can solve the online version within 8 moves ALL the time, 6 moves most of the time.

I fail. Not because of the puzzle, but because the ****ing Air Elementals are tossing me around and I can't finish the puzzle.

We try again, can't even get to the puzzle (I think, I'm drinking at this point).

Again, we manage to get to the puzzle, the ****ing air ellies screw us again.

I'm not looking for Icy Rainments, I'm not looking to be crazy uber and 2 man the shroud by slapping my nuts on the keyboard, I'm just looking to have fun with the PnP group I used to spend my Thursday nights with before they all moved away.

Yeah, we can still play. Sleeping dust for the 50th time, what fun.

Running with the devils? Not after the ellie changes.

Ritual Sacrifice? Yeah, 25 runs and still fresh.

Rainbow? Screw that.

Coalescence? Screw that with a rusty railroad spike.

In their zeal to make things more "challenging" Turbine has made the game un-fun.

Even if we failed, I've ALWAYS had fun playing with my friends.

Tonight, we beat the shroud and it ****ing SUCKED.

Tonight, we failed like 4 times on the Reaver, and each one ****ing SUCKED.

So, undoubtedly getting more infraction points, thanks for nothing, Tubrine.

You ****ed up this game to the point where I will never ever defend it again.

And ask around, I defended the **** out of this game.

In closing, I'm almost certainly not re-upping my subscription. If I do, it's because my PnP group convinced me to until the tabletop online game comes out.

Way to go, Turbine. Way to not test anything, way to not take casual players into account, and in summation, way to **** up this game.

No more defenses from me, and no more dollars from me.

Big middle finger to you all.

[Aerniel]

nothing to say...

[manfredshw]

I have nothing to say too...

[theblaz]

Hehe, I'd rather you said something...

I don't care if NO one agrees with me, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

It's just that after almost 2 years of playing this game, Turbine has made it "not fun."

If this sounds like whining, so be it. It kinda is.

But I loved this game, loved having a chance to playing D&D (sorta) with my old gaming group, loved meeting new people, playing new quests and having fun.

Tonight just ****ing sucked.

And I'm done with this game.

[Aerniel]

well if your night ****ing sucked dont post your rage on the forums ass... we dont need your complaints!

[Kistilan]

Pure Awesome.

I salute you Rameses!!!

[Fetchi]

It's starting to feel that way for me too man. The reason no one has anything to say is because they're all in the Subterranean lmao - losers...

[theblaz]

well if your night ****ing sucked dont post your rage on the forums ass... we dont need your complaints!

You're right. I shouldn't use the public forum to post my opinion.

Thanks for calling me an ass, too. You clearly have a lot of value to offer to the conversation.

/laugh

[boldarblood]

If it took 2 hours to run shroud, it was not a competent group. It happens, deal with it.

Reaver, the party has to change tactics, and it is still not to difficult. It was a good chance, it makes more of the party involved in the quest.

[stockwizard5]

I have posted and posted and posted and posted about the need for the developers to interact with players (e.g. Theblaz) to find out how they play and what they enjoy. Whatever they did to the reaver does nothing to challenge me - so its still a loot run. The casual player on the other hand - burned.

Now of course this is a drunken tirade (soon to be deleted) - but I have heard this basic sentiment about the changes (Reaver especially) for the last three days all over the server.

Note to Devs: Air Elemental Knockdown is NOT FUN

AD had a thread that explained why in some detail - taking something you know we think is NOT FUN and making more of it - why?

[Junts]

Hehe, I'd rather you said something...

I don't care if NO one agrees with me, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

It's just that after almost 2 years of playing this game, Turbine has made it "not fun."

If this sounds like whining, so be it. It kinda is.

But I loved this game, loved having a chance to playing D&D (sorta) with my old gaming group, loved meeting new people, playing new quests and having fun.

Tonight just ****ing sucked.

And I'm done with this game.

The change was to the Reaver's air eles, not to elementals in general. Have run the shroud since the mod - it was no different, just laggy sometimes. It has not changed, except Damasze. The guys in RWtD are not elementals even though they have whirlwind graphics and they don't do the knockdown. They are unchanged.

The Reaver isn't hard now, you just have to adjust your tactics - balls still work well, and DPS them with firewalls, don't just spam fail fingers.

[Valzoric]

I defend this critique.

Before the "mod" (notice that is in quotes, because this was a nerf, nothing else). I understand the reaver was way to easy...and the shroud may have been also.

However, I ran the reaver and the shroud once the mod was in, and with very competent groups...it's insane. I thought turbine wanted to make this game easier for people who never played an MMO or D&D? maybe with the newbie areas, but higher lvls, it's not even close.

What do they do, they nerf the **** out of the reaver, because the elite a-holes can run it in 5 /12 seconds (embellished). And instead of making it harder solely on elite, ALL versions are very difficult. Seriously on NORMAL, no CC works, no FoD, NOTHING. on NORMAL!! We've got a caster that has put a lot of focus into Spell Pen, and that doesn't even help.

Also, while nerfing the reaver, they make a subteranne boss a piece of cake, and now people are pulling +2 tomes on like an 8% chance. The run takes like 10 min...look at the LFM's...oh wait...nerf coming monday.

So, Turbine...who are you making this game for? Everyone? Not likely...more like gearing it to the top 5%...because it's too easy for them. Screw the casual people who don't have 7 maxed toons and can loot the **** out of a quest. Also, I know, I know...wah wah...but seriously...I work hard, I travel for long periods of time to my job. I unwind and relax with this game...but now, all the fun is gone. The people I play with are not the ubers....we just managed to get everyone flagged for reaver...and now...we can't run it.

I'm glad I play CoH....because I enjoy that game. Now...DDO has become a PoS....and I'm ready to cancel too. We didn't even get our full mod...where's our hirelings? Oh wait...they couldn't get that right either..activation date TBD. While they were busy Nerfing these quests, they couldn't fix some old bugs too...but wait...that's not important. Just keep catering to the people 5% of the player base that is waiting 3 days after a mod for the next. Screw the little guy.

God...i can't wait for 4e tabletop. I'm gonna go play CoH and some other things, and seriously ponder why I still pay for this ****.

[theblaz]

well it fits the person. besides... if your going to quit so quickly because your night sucked we dont really need your negativness..

Last I saw, the forums weren't just for kissing ass. Make sure you let me know if you find the rule that disputes that.

[Aerniel]

Last I saw, the forums weren't just for kissing ass. Make sure you let me know if you find the rule that disputes that.

werent you quitting? what're ya still doing here?

[GeneralDiomedes]

I will never understand the attitude of those who don't wish to adapt. Sure, you're all so D&D when they 'overpower' the players and things are a cakewalk .. but you sure ain't D&*******D when things are actually hard.

[Timjc86]

I made a post similar to this after my first VoN attempt a while back. My insight and feedback (and I feel my arguments too) were well warranted, however my tone was not, and I regret it.

The mod is not even a week old so absolutely none of these changes are set in stone. Let them know how you feel, but bear in mind your opinion is much more likely to be sincerely and objectively considered if it's not quite so... heartfelt.

Don't fall into the trap of defending every facet of the game because it is the game you play, or lambasting it in its entirety because you don't agree with some of the changes. The best thing you can do to help improve the game is to be as objective and specific as possible about both the things you enjoy and the ones that you don't.

As for the changes, aside from offering your feedback, the next best thing you can do is to keep practicing, it'll get easier. It sounds like it was just a bad day and the group didn't mesh quite like it should have. It happens.

[Valzoric]

The Reaver isn't hard now, you just have to adjust your tactics - balls still work well, and DPS them with firewalls, don't just spam fail fingers.

Balls don't work...not for us..not on Elite or normal. Maxed lvl 16 Sorc, wiz and bard. Are we talking casual players or people with full Tier 3 Shroud loot? I think the focus here is casual players.

And to the person who said don't come to the PUBLIC forums and complain. I think you need to look up the word PUBLIC. The elitists have their say...now we can have ours.

[Ringos]

I'll agree that it seems that stuff (like the new quests on normal even) seem to be geared toward the higher-end folks. I don't like it. I would rather have normal be more, well, normal. Scaling for hard and elite is fine. That's the way it should be.

As far as the Reaver goes, I have run it once with some decent folks (joined a PUG) and I think we had one death. We knew it had changed and went in prepared to change tactics. We adapted and overcame. I don't mind that at all. It used to be a cake-walk loot run, now folks have to work a bit for it on Elite. I don't have a problem with that. I will, however, be more selective of the company I keep in there. :) EDIT: I noticed balls working, at times. Destruction? FoD? Didn't land one or see one landed, though I could be wrong.

Hope you stick with it, at least to see if some changes are coming. Take care.

[Aerniel]

And to the person who said don't come to the PUBLIC forums and complain. I think you need to look up the word PUBLIC. The elitists have their say...now we can have ours.

i just think the complaining needs to stop... none of it is necessary.

[theblaz]

Stock, sorry I was a **** to you. I may not agree with you, but after tonight....

Christ.

I see more of your points.

And I love how people are saying, "It's not hard, just adjust...."

Yeah, we know.

We knew that going in. We never tried the old tactics, we tried all the new tactics everyone's babbling about.

RESIST, RESIST, RESIST.

We never just tried to Disco Ball and sit there watching, we fully expected it to be harder.

This was insane.

And the Shroud group we were in was competent, boldar.

On normal with 12 capped players (only ONE of whom had never run the shroud), we should NOT have had the problems we did. It wasn't a lack of DPS or healing or CC. I'm sure you're totally awesome at the game and rock everything because you're uber and all, but this was absolutely ridiculous.

[Kistilan]

If you salute Rameses 49 times during the Reaver Raid, you automatically banish all elementals.

I salute you, Rameses!

[Aerniel]

If you salute Rameses 49 times during the Reaver Raid, you automatically banish all elementals.

I salute you, Rameses!

nuff said.

[theblaz]

i just think the complaining needs to stop... none of it is necessary.

But you complaining about MY complaining is ok....

Funny stuff.

[Aerniel]

But you complaining about MY complaining is ok....

Funny stuff.

the more you complain, the more i complain, once it stops ther'll be no complaining...

[Valzoric]

i just think the complaining needs to stop... none of it is necessary.

Why should we not complain? Why should the CASUAL gamer have to be silent? Why should we let the UBER and ELITISTS dictate what this game should be? I understand increasing difficulty, but as someone so daftly indicated, that's perfect for hard and elite. We're Talking NORMAL runs.

I pay my money...so I have every right to complain about this game. You could've just told me, why bother to vote, when it looks like Obama is hands down favorite and will win. Well, thanks, but I choose to have an opinion and voice my opinion. Just as much right as you have to troll this thread and **** all over my opinion. SO if you don't like what I have to say...don't read it.

[Aerniel]

that hurts my feelings telling me not to pst here... btw isnt this a public thread?

[Valzoric]

that hurts my feelings telling me not to pst here... btw isnt this a public thread?
It is public...so you have no right to tell me not to post. I was indicating, if you don't like the content and tone of my post, you have the right and privilege to not read it.

[SlipperyPete]

Could you post the link of where to practice Mind Blaster? I've been trying to get that for my cell phone and should be able to shrink the screen down myself if it's in Java.

Prolly not the best timing but.....ya know, small window.

And yes, I've tried Google 100s of times.

[Aerniel]

simply put

[manfredshw]

It's starting to feel that way for me too man. The reason no one has anything to say is because they're all in the Subterranean lmao - losers...


Sorry you are wrong, I am not the kind of person as you.

I said nothing because if I want to express my true feeling about the whole thread, that do cost me lots of time to organize the words. English is not my mother language. Thank you.

My suggestion is, leave this game alone, and have a rest. Back online later when you miss the game.
This game is good, but still need some small balance between hardcores and casual players.

And how to pass a quest or beat the mobs to death without any problem is a matter of tastic. You need to learn it somehow. Items is needed, and need a little grind, but not too complicated. Casual players still have the chance to loot some decent and easy-obtained item to make their character stronger enough to face the challenge.

If you wanna do better, you need to think. And you were killed and failed in a quest, you need to think why you dead, and tastic is what you need to learn.

This is a game, everybody can play it easily, not some kind of rocket science.

And if you tried, have a rest. It's good.

[theblaz]

As I said before, you're a joke.

You don't like this thread, stop replying in it.

[Aerniel]

Also, isn't it cool that I can reply to a post and have it show up in the thread before that post. Awesome!

first... lol...


I like how you tell me to not complain, then whine that it's a public forum.

I'll just sit here and wait for the irony to hit you.

It'll be awhile, so I'll choose a comfy chair.

and second... want a blanket?

[Aerniel]

aww that hurt my feelings tellin me not to post here... btw isnt this a public forum?

[Aerniel]

(*** why do i hae to post twice to get my post up?)

[Aerniel]

want a blanket?

[Valzoric]

Sorry you are wrong, I am not the kind of person as you.

I said nothing because if I want to express my true feeling about the whole thread, that do cost me lots of time to organize the words. English is not my mother language. Thank you.

My suggestion is, leave this game alone, and have a rest. Back online later when you miss the game.
This game is good, but still need some small balance between hardcores and casual players.

And how to pass a quest or beat the mobs to death without any problem is a matter of tastic. You need to learn it somehow. Items is needed, and need a little grind, but not too complicated. Casual players still have the chance to loot some decent and easy-obtained item to make their character stronger enough to face the challenge.

If you wanna do better, you need to think. And you were killed and failed in a quest, you need to think why you dead, and tastic is what you need to learn.

This is a game, everybody can play it easily, not some kind of rocket science.

And if you tried, have a rest. It's good.
You contradicted yourself in the same post. You use the word CAUSAL and GRIND in the same sentence. Grinding indicates the ability to be logged on for hours, looting the same thing over and over again. Casual indicates the ability to log on, run something and log off. So which would you prefer?

Tactics? We knew the reaver was changed. We tried 3 times, with 3 different tactics. Again, I'm sure if I had hours to GRIND and try every tactic in the game we could hammer it down and have a specific group of x casters/x clerics/etc with x items and the sort. But how does this benefit the CASUAL gamer?

[DoctorWhofan]

To the OP:


No, I don't agree with you.

YOu had a bad group, rather an group with well intentioned but bad mix. I dunno wasn't there. Maybe you had too many 1's being rolled.

HOWEVER-

It is a public forum, and you can have your say.


However, being nasty doesn't help the situation at all.

Nor does it make any friends, though you are leaving, I suppose you don't care. That is your choice. But I have very little sympathy for you. But I will not be rude to you.

As for the rest--See above statment. It applies to EVERYONE. It's called civil.

I suspect that the Cube will have breakfast in the AM.

[Kistilan]

I heard this was the place for the penitent rogues ball? Is this it?

I brought carrots for all the penitent rogues.

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/life-is-not-fair.jpg

I salute you, Rameses!

[Valzoric]

Also, isn't it cool that I can reply to a post and have it show up in the thread before that post. Awesome!

[theblaz]

I like how you tell me to not complain, then whine that it's a public forum.

I'll just sit here and wait for the irony to hit you.

It'll be awhile, so I'll choose a comfy chair.

[theblaz]

Aerniel, sometimes the posts come out of order. People call it "ninja-ing" a post, where you post a reply to something but it pops up above the original.

I have no idea why it happens.


To the OP:


No, I don't agree with you.

YOu had a bad group, rather an group with well intentioned but bad mix. I dunno wasn't there. Maybe you had too many 1's being rolled.

HOWEVER-

It is a public forum, and you can have your say.


However, being nasty doesn't help the situation at all.

Nor does it make any friends, though you are leaving, I suppose you don't care. That is your choice. But I have very little sympathy for you. But I will not be rude to you.

As for the rest--See above statment. It applies to EVERYONE. It's called civil.

I suspect that the Cube will have breakfast in the AM.

Let the Cube eat, you're right. I don't care anymore.

My nastiness was towards the situation and vaguely towards Turbine. The first personal attack came towards ME, not FROM me.

I know it's easy for people to say "You had a bad group, move on."

But you're wrong. You were not there, you didn't know who we had.

We had a group that would have rocked the Shroud last week, no problem.

In the Reaver, we had a group that would have destroyed it with ease.

The problem was not that we had a bad group, it was not that we had a group that didn't mesh.

If you want to make that argument, feel free.

But know that you were NOT there, and I was.

And that I have ALWAYS defended Turbine and this game. I don't complain for the fun of it.

[Aerniel]

ok this is wierding me out... arent my posts supposed to g at the bottom!?!!?

[Valzoric]

As do I.
The type of salute I have in mind would not be welcomed in most public instances.

[Valzoric]

I heard this was the place for the penitent rogues ball? Is this it?

I brought carrots for all the penitent rogues.

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/life-is-not-fair.jpg

I salute you, Rameses!

Ah, the typical split. Elitists on one side Casual gamers on the other. We know where Turbine's allegiance lies.

[Valzoric]

ok this is wierding me out... arent my posts supposed to g at the bottom!?!!?

This thread is so screwed up right now, I wouldn't be surprised to see the OP's post be the last post.

[Kistilan]

Ah, the typical split. Elitists on one side Casual gamers on the other. We know where Turbine's allegiance lies.

It did seem appropriate... at the time.

I salute you, Rameses!

[Leyoni]

way to not take casual players into account,

IMO this is a valid complaint.

I spent some time prior to mod 8 arguing that it is in Turbine's economic interest to scale quests so that normal is doable by casual players, hard by casual but good players and elite by top quality players. That was countered by a couple of very active posters who insisted that Turbine's focus is the high end, top flight player group.

I had argued that their estimates indicated only 10% of the population was in this top group so catering to them did not make good sense. I even pointed to the revamped introduction section in the NPE as proof that Turbine's focus was on the estimated 65% of us who are casual gamers.

Then came the posts about how much more difficult it is to get a completion on various content and on how often uber loot is dropping in new locations. And my initial reaction is just what I've quoted from the OP -- way to not take casual players into account.

The biggest downside for me atm is that all the groups seem to be on one of two ends of the spectrum -- either they are all low levels running the new NPE (I've soloed it all on 3 characters, can't figure out why there is any need to group at all as it is really beautiful but also very easy) or they are all high levels in a "don't come unless you are uber" groups going after the new high end content.

Meanwhile the level 8-12 crowd is left out again with nothing to do. I logged in yesterday and couldn't even find groups for my 3 L4-5 characters as everything was L1-3 or L15-16.

Now, I expect things to settle down in a week or two as all the newness wears off. And, in honesty, Reaver was way too easy on elite. VoN I haven't run in months because I wind up passing the levels far too easily and never seeing groups to join (although I would like to get some completions there with Cratesmasher).

All in all I am disappointed in the approach Turbine has taken and in what looks to me like disregard for the bulk of the players. So I echo the OP's frustration and understand it.

OP is right. Quests should be doable by PuGs because that is the core of the game. Something like the Shroud should be doable on normal by most PuGs. Reaver normal should be about what Reaver elite used to be. Maybe these things are in fact how it now is. I don't know because I can't find groups running the quests atm.

So I feel that Turbine has not done a good job of considering the casual players either.

[Aerniel]

I salute you, Rameses!


As do I.

[xanvar]

I also agree with the OP in theory. Maybe the tone was a bit harsh but I think the game is starting to favor the top 10% way more than it used to. Is that a bad idea? I don't know but I can see this trend leading to a large decline in subscriptions. Maybe as bad as the super lag monster that struck around mod 3 or so.

[Valzoric]

IMO this is a valid complaint.

I spent some time prior to mod 8 arguing that it is in Turbine's economic interest to scale quests so that normal is doable by casual players, hard by casual but good players and elite by top quality players. That was countered by a couple of very active posters who insisted that Turbine's focus is the high end, top flight player group.

I had argued that their estimates indicated only 10% of the population was in this top group so catering to them did not make good sense. I even pointed to the revamped introduction section in the NPE as proof that Turbine's focus was on the estimated 65% of us who are casual gamers.

Then came the posts about how much more difficult it is to get a completion on various content and on how often uber loot is dropping in new locations. And my initial reaction is just what I've quoted from the OP -- way to not take casual players into account.

The biggest downside for me atm is that all the groups seem to be on one of two ends of the spectrum -- either they are all low levels running the new NPE (I've soloed it all on 3 characters, can't figure out why there is any need to group at all as it is really beautiful but also very easy) or they are all high levels in a "don't come unless you are uber" groups going after the new high end content.

Meanwhile the level 8-12 crowd is left out again with nothing to do. I logged in yesterday and couldn't even find groups for my 3 L4-5 characters as everything was L1-3 or L15-16.

Now, I expect things to settle down in a week or two as all the newness wears off. And, in honesty, Reaver was way too easy on elite. VoN I haven't run in months because I wind up passing the levels far too easily and never seeing groups to join (although I would like to get some completions there with Cratesmasher).

All in all I am disappointed in the approach Turbine has taken and in what looks to me like disregard for the bulk of the players. So I echo the OP's frustration and understand it.

OP is right. Quests should be doable by PuGs because that is the core of the game. Something like the Shroud should be doable on normal by most PuGs. Reaver normal should be about what Reaver elite used to be. Maybe these things are in fact how it now is. I don't know because I can't find groups running the quests atm.

So I feel that Turbine has not done a good job of considering the casual players either.
I applaud you for taking the time to read the complaints...not troll. And to lend your opinion to what I feel is not just the problem for this MMO, but all MMO's. Eventually the DEV's focus all their time on the UBER and ELITE groups/people/guilds, and eventually, that's all that is left playing. So, in their quest to lure new gamers...they just end up chasing them away.

[manfredshw]

You contradicted yourself in the same post. You use the word CAUSAL and GRIND in the same sentence. Grinding indicates the ability to be logged on for hours, looting the same thing over and over again. Casual indicates the ability to log on, run something and log off. So which would you prefer?

Tactics? We knew the reaver was changed. We tried 3 times, with 3 different tactics. Again, I'm sure if I had hours to GRIND and try every tactic in the game we could hammer it down and have a specific group of x casters/x clerics/etc with x items and the sort. But how does this benefit the CASUAL gamer?

well, you may not know how to play a game efficient.
If I was a casual player, that only means I don't have enough time to grind, but do not mean I can't grind.
Give me one hour, I can do a lots of things in this game.

And the most important, RAID is a matter of 12 people there, if you failed, only means you guys lack of teamwork.
And don;t know how to do next. Adjust is needed, and overcome the changes. Reaver is still a piece of cake. As well as other quests. For my guildies, when we run reaver after mod8, we fail in the first time, but second time, we won. That's not because how uber we are, is only because we know how to adjust and overcome.

Some people think mario64 is hard, but others may think it is way too easy.
That is the world.

[cdemeritt]

Hmm... This has been an interesting thread to read. Myself, I don't consider myself to be an elite powergamer, but I'm not a pure causal gamer either. however, The base complaints in this thread were the same ones that actually drove me from the game. It has been almost 1 month since I last logged in to play, but I thought I'd check out mod 8 over the weekend. I didn't get a chance to really play, but I have to say, I haven't seen/heard anything that will change my mind about not renewing my subscription after 1 year. I prefer the dungeon crawl over the speed runs I've seen, and those who like the speed runs seem to have the Devs ears. I no longer see a game of infinate choices, I see a fancy game of DOOM. The balance is gone (ok very difficult to maintain, at best), and so is the fun.

[manfredshw]

edit: re-post due to internet lag

[Valzoric]

well, you may not know how to play a game efficient.
If I was a casual player, that only means I don't have enough time to grind, but do not mean I can't grind.
Give me one hour, I can do a lots of things in this game.

And the most important, RAID is a matter of 12 people there, if you failed, only means you guys lack of teamwork.
And don;t know how to do next. Adjust is needed, and overcome the changes. Reaver is still a piece of cake. As well as other quests. For my guildies, when we run reaver after mod8, we fail in the first time, but second time, we won. That's not because how uber we are, is only because we know how to adjust and overcome.

Some people think mario64 is hard, but others may think it is way too easy.
That is the world.
Right...lack teamwork with the same people that could do shroud last week with no problems. Lack teamwork with people that I have grouped with many times before. It was obviously the lack of teamwork...when in a NORMAL quest, maxed characters cannot land CC or any of the usual array of spells that would work prior to mod 8.

I'm glad you and your guildies can go in on the second time and win. Congrats...here's a cookie. How many of them have run it...10 times? 20 times? 40 times? I'm talking about people that as a whole have run this as a group...once, twice.

As far as adjusting? We had listened to what people were saying as for what did and didn't work...we were adjusting...and on NORMAL...nothing worked. So yeah, maybe if you were casual...you could still grind...but obviously your NOT casual...so don't try to put yourself in my shoes.

Sure, I don't have to do this quest either...but you know...after spending so much time working to get a lot of people ready for it, and to walk in on NORMAL and be completely overwhelmed, I would say...its a tiny bit out of balance.

Not everyone has Tier 3, every raid reward, complete sets, dragon this..etc. There are some people who don't max out their character 12 hours after a mod comes out. This is called...the casual gamer.

[DoctorWhofan]

Aerniel, sometimes the posts come out of order. People call it "ninja-ing" a post, where you post a reply to something but it pops up above the original.

I have no idea why it happens.



Let the Cube eat, you're right. I don't care anymore.

My nastiness was towards the situation and vaguely towards Turbine. The first personal attack came towards ME, not FROM me.

I know it's easy for people to say "You had a bad group, move on."

But you're wrong. You were not there, you didn't know who we had.

We had a group that would have rocked the Shroud last week, no problem.

In the Reaver, we had a group that would have destroyed it with ease.

The problem was not that we had a bad group, it was not that we had a group that didn't mesh.

If you want to make that argument, feel free.

But know that you were NOT there, and I was.

And that I have ALWAYS defended Turbine and this game. I don't complain for the fun of it.

Agreed, I wasn't there. There have been times I wanted to chuck the computer out the window in fustration. Trust me, PuG all the time. I am saying just ggive it up because of one very bad run. Ok 3 in a row. Walk away for a few days and come back.

I was referring to your tone not the content. Because of all the yelling and swearing, by the time I got to the end of the post, I didn't really care if you were offering sainthood to Tolero, you made me angry at you.

As for the personal attack, yes you were attack, and that was very wrong of the poster. I am certainally don't defend him, even though I may agree with him. Again, the tone was wrong. I am sure he will get his present from Tolero in the AM.

His posts did not help the situation at all. I agree. But my reply was to the both of you, not just you. But don't let him set the tone of your final decision. Again, take a few days off and think it through.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Bottom line .. D&D rules were not meant for MMOs .. bottom is a lot farther from the top that other MMOs, and unfortuntaly those at the top make it hard for those at the bottom. Any content can be done, the difference is how fast.

[manfredshw]

Right...lack teamwork with the same people that could do shroud last week with no problems. Lack teamwork with people that I have grouped with many times before. It was obviously the lack of teamwork...when in a NORMAL quest, maxed characters cannot land CC or any of the usual array of spells that would work prior to mod 8.

I'm glad you and your guildies can go in on the second time and win. Congrats...here's a cookie. How many of them have run it...10 times? 20 times? 40 times? I'm talking about people that as a whole have run this as a group...once, twice.

As far as adjusting? We had listened to what people were saying as for what did and didn't work...we were adjusting...and on NORMAL...nothing worked. So yeah, maybe if you were casual...you could still grind...but obviously your NOT casual...so don't try to put yourself in my shoes.

Sure, I don't have to do this quest either...but you know...after spending so much time working to get a lot of people ready for it, and to walk in on NORMAL and be completely overwhelmed, I would say...its a tiny bit out of balance.

Not everyone has Tier 3, every raid reward, complete sets, dragon this..etc. There are some people who don't max out their character 12 hours after a mod comes out. This is called...the casual gamer.

I need to work, I only play ddo afterwork and before go to bed.
I only have one t3 gs weapon, and it is useless in reaver.

Enough said, if you want to be stronger, some items are needed, but not difficuilt to obtain, such as t1+t2 dps weapon, nightwork, very easy. And I got my IR just the day before yesterday, after mod8, you know the giantskeleton chest? IR is very easy to obtain.

Well, I feel sorry for you, you are not in sarlona, can't help you.

[Leyoni]

You contradicted yourself in the same post. You use the word CAUSAL and GRIND in the same sentence. Grinding indicates the ability to be logged on for hours, looting the same thing over and over again. Casual indicates the ability to log on, run something and log off. So which would you prefer?

I don't know that I agree with your definitions. Casual, IMO, is an attitude more than a reflection of how much time a person has available. I have lots of time available and some days am logged in 6-8 hours. But I don't try to get thru as much content as possible or raid every high level chest or exclude new/less capable players because they slow me down or interfere with completion. I play that way because it is what I want to do.

I do not mind running a quest 3 or 4 times in a row looking for an item. I also don't mind not running the quest 3 or 4 times in a row (even when I really need the item to help my character). I want the good loot, but I don't worry that life ends because I don't have it.

IMO it is possible to be both casual and to grind. To some degree you have to grind given the way DDO is going because you have to qualify for quests -- we call it flagging. I need 10 each of 3 different tokens to open a quest and I won't get them by running all the content thru on normal. I have to run each quest 2 or 3 times. Personally I don't like that. It is how video games work, PC games -- but not Dungeons and Dragons.

Maybe you never played D&D/AD&D in any other form. But, in PnP how often would you go back and run a dungeon over again? Even with the first AD&D modules we never ran them twice. There just isn't any joy in doing that. We'd design our own quests and build our own story lines. We would never go back and repeat a quest.

It doesn't seem appropriate to do that in DDO. Yet the game is focused more and more on that aspect of things.

Turbine's developers continually miss opportunities because they do not think in big enough terms. Hard should not be normal with ramped up monsters. Hard should be a new experience where the entire dungeon has been revamped -- where monsters are in different locations, new rooms and traps have been added, objectives have been changed. And elite.... Elite should be all of that and more -- a genuine, top-rate, OMG experience.

To top it all off, once completed on elite that should be it. If the villians are dead or banished or whatever then they shouldn't be there for us to fight again the 20th time.

"Foul," I hear some of you crying. "That would mean more content and people would have nothing to do while we wait the interminable months for develpment," you are saying. Well, the solution would be for elements of the elite version to change so that it is highly unlikely that a player will have the same, predictable experience in any of 30 or 40 attempts.

But, that isn't how things are. So casual players are stuck with also pursuing the grind because that is all that is left to us. So, your definitions don't hold and it is not only possible to be both casual and grinding -- it is a requirement given DDO's current state.

[Taojeff]

First, let me start by apologizing to anyone who has criticized this game only to see me defending it and arguing with you.

Honestly, I'm sorry.

I've defended this game because my old PnP group was playing it, and because we met some cool people in the game. We all had fun doing our thing. We were so not uber, it was almost crazy. I'm done only 3 raids ever (VoN, Shroud, Reaver). Two capped characters, my main is still my first 28 pt build. Less than 2000 favor.

Our loot runs are From beyond the grave, sleeping dust, vale rares. Nothing special. A month ago I went ape**** when I won the Reaver Napkin on my main.

I say all that to give you an idea of how I play the game and how I'm not burned out, how I'm not at the very very end waiting for new content. I'm not a hardcore raider, I'm very casual.

Tonight, I've almost certainly made up my mind to leave the game.

First, we did the Shroud. Pug group, competent people. A couple of whiny people, but I expected nothing less (I know their guilds; bunch of crybabies). It was at least 5 times harder than it was before Mod 8. I had a 22k repair bill. It took us around 2 hours.

Yeah, I know uber people can beat it in 16 minutes, super duper. Don't care, shut up. This isn't about how awesome you are, this is about how a casual player with several good friends in the game is ready to leave when, yesterday, he spent much time defending this game.

So it took forever but we beat the Shroud.

Let's do reaver!

Yeah. Elite, wipe in like 2 minutes.

On normal, we manage to make it to the puzzle.

I'm the solver. I've spent hours practicing. I can solve the online version within 8 moves ALL the time, 6 moves most of the time.

I fail. Not because of the puzzle, but because the ****ing Air Elementals are tossing me around and I can't finish the puzzle.

We try again, can't even get to the puzzle (I think, I'm drinking at this point).

Again, we manage to get to the puzzle, the ****ing air ellies screw us again.

I'm not looking for Icy Rainments, I'm not looking to be crazy uber and 2 man the shroud by slapping my nuts on the keyboard, I'm just looking to have fun with the PnP group I used to spend my Thursday nights with before they all moved away.

Yeah, we can still play. Sleeping dust for the 50th time, what fun.

Running with the devils? Not after the ellie changes.

Ritual Sacrifice? Yeah, 25 runs and still fresh.

Rainbow? Screw that.

Coalescence? Screw that with a rusty railroad spike.

In their zeal to make things more "challenging" Turbine has made the game un-fun.

Even if we failed, I've ALWAYS had fun playing with my friends.

Tonight, we beat the shroud and it ****ing SUCKED.

Tonight, we failed like 4 times on the Reaver, and each one ****ing SUCKED.

So, undoubtedly getting more infraction points, thanks for nothing, Tubrine.

You ****ed up this game to the point where I will never ever defend it again.

And ask around, I defended the **** out of this game.

In closing, I'm almost certainly not re-upping my subscription. If I do, it's because my PnP group convinced me to until the tabletop online game comes out.

Way to go, Turbine. Way to not test anything, way to not take casual players into account, and in summation, way to **** up this game.

No more defenses from me, and no more dollars from me.

Big middle finger to you all.


I would not call myself a hardcore gamer, I take months off at time. But I am more then a casual gamer, I am elite casual gamer. I like stuff to be hard, and I love DDO, it seemed silly for me that reaver was so easy.

However,.... There is a big glaring problem in DDO, basically the casual gamer cannot keep up with the Hardcore and Elite Gamer and it makes it less fun. Reason why alot of Guilds don't run with Pugs is cause they say they are noobs or dont listen, or dont know what they are doing.

Real Reason, this game is tough, its complicated and it gets almost exponentially hard as you go on. This is for a couple of reasons.

1. D&D 3.5 is not a balanced system. It is a good system, but it is not balanced throughout the levels. 4.0 (lover it or hate it) was designed with this in mind and spreads the sweet spot out over the levels for all classes (something 3.5 definitely does not do).

2. DDO does not have the bredth of PnP, the class, enchancement, and prestige systems basically only have as much as the Turbine can crank out at anyone time, so more than likely there will always be at least one class that is gimped and complains. This is ontop of the already unbalanced class roles in 3.5.

3. DDO is based on a D20 system, but unlike many D20 systems, the roll of the dice is weighted down. Basically what I am saying is with all the pluses you can get with the enhancements and items, the roll of the dice has less weight then it does in traditional PnP. This helps to further unbalance the classes.

4. DDO is a monty haul campaign, and will probably always be because most MMOs are and thats what people expect. However, in monty haul systems there will always be the uber hardcore gamer and the casual gamer gap. The goal here however should be to create multiple ways to bridge the gap so that the HARDCORE gamers have an advantage but not signifigantly so. It really all comes down to math, and if you have a D20 system, with some deviations between the casual gamer and the hardcore gamer equal +10 difference your going to have problems. You just cannot scale adventures for that large a deviation. The problem is the system, not Turbine, not the players.

[alchilito]

The OP has some serious need of advice on how to approach new challenges added to the game.

Enervation for the win. Tested that out on air ellys ? works pretty well.

[DoctorWhofan]

I would not call myself a hardcore gamer, I take months off at time. But I am more then a casual gamer, I am elite casual gamer. I like stuff to be hard, and I love DDO, it seemed silly for me that reaver was so easy.

However,.... There is a big glaring problem in DDO, basically the casual gamer cannot keep up with the Hardcore and Elite Gamer and it makes it less fun. Reason why alot of Guilds don't run with Pugs is cause they say they are noobs or dont listen, or dont know what they are doing.

Real Reason, this game is tough, its complicated and it gets almost exponentially hard as you go on. This is for a couple of reasons.

1. D&D 3.5 is not a balanced system. It is a good system, but it is not balanced throughout the levels. 4.0 (lover it or hate it) was designed with this in mind and spreads the sweet spot out over the levels for all classes (something 3.5 definitely does not do).

2. DDO does not have the bredth of PnP, the class, enchancement, and prestige systems basically only have as much as the Turbine can crank out at anyone time, so more than likely there will always be at least one class that is gimped and complains. This is ontop of the already unbalanced class roles in 3.5.

3. DDO is based on a D20 system, but unlike many D20 systems, the roll of the dice is weighted down. Basically what I am saying is with all the pluses you can get with the enhancements and items, the roll of the dice has less weight then it does in traditional PnP. This helps to further unbalance the classes.

4. DDO is a monty haul campaign, and will probably always be because most MMOs are and thats what people expect. However, in monty haul systems there will always be the uber hardcore gamer and the casual gamer gap. The goal here however should be to create multiple ways to bridge the gap so that the HARDCORE gamers have an advantage but not signifigantly so. It really all comes down to math, and if you have a D20 system, with some deviations between the casual gamer and the hardcore gamer equal +10 difference your going to have problems. You just cannot scale adventures for that large a deviation. The problem is the system, not Turbine, not the players.

I disagree. I am a casual gamer and I am having fun. While your reasoning is valid, the truth is, many casual players ARE having fun. We find things that we like to make it fun. Yeah I have 2 accounts and 1 capped toon, it doesn't matter. I am having FUN. Logic goes out the door, when emotion is attached. Yeah the Reaver is harder. Oh well. We'll figure it out eventually. Humans like solving problems, and this is one problem that will be fixed. Heck, a bunch of Japanese figured out the Abbott. Granted, they were NOT casual Gamers, doesn't mean it cannot be done or it is unbeatable.


Or the quest starts not to be played. Turbine will notice that.

[ChronosWolf]

theblaz: It sounds like your burnt out. You should take a break from DDO. Try another game maybe or play a console system for awhile.

I played DDO from first day for a few months, then left a year or so..came back, stayed a week...left again for a year..then came back and am having some fun.

I haven't hit the end game..hell I haven't hit 10 yet. It sucks playing by yourself.

Just take a break from DDO. Come back and maybe things will be better.

[GeneralDiomedes]

I would not call myself a hardcore gamer, I take months off at time. But I am more then a casual gamer, I am elite casual gamer. I like stuff to be hard, and I love DDO, it seemed silly for me that reaver was so easy.

However,.... There is a big glaring problem in DDO, basically the casual gamer cannot keep up with the Hardcore and Elite Gamer and it makes it less fun. Reason why alot of Guilds don't run with Pugs is cause they say they are noobs or dont listen, or dont know what they are doing.

Real Reason, this game is tough, its complicated and it gets almost exponentially hard as you go on. This is for a couple of reasons.

1. D&D 3.5 is not a balanced system. It is a good system, but it is not balanced throughout the levels. 4.0 (lover it or hate it) was designed with this in mind and spreads the sweet spot out over the levels for all classes (something 3.5 definitely does not do).

2. DDO does not have the bredth of PnP, the class, enchancement, and prestige systems basically only have as much as the Turbine can crank out at anyone time, so more than likely there will always be at least one class that is gimped and complains. This is ontop of the already unbalanced class roles in 3.5.

3. DDO is based on a D20 system, but unlike many D20 systems, the roll of the dice is weighted down. Basically what I am saying is with all the pluses you can get with the enhancements and items, the roll of the dice has less weight then it does in traditional PnP. This helps to further unbalance the classes.

4. DDO is a monty haul campaign, and will probably always be because most MMOs are and thats what people expect. However, in monty haul systems there will always be the uber hardcore gamer and the casual gamer gap. The goal here however should be to create multiple ways to bridge the gap so that the HARDCORE gamers have an advantage but not signifigantly so. It really all comes down to math, and if you have a D20 system, with some deviations between the casual gamer and the hardcore gamer equal +10 difference your going to have problems. You just cannot scale adventures for that large a deviation. The problem is the system, not Turbine, not the players.

I agree with you 100% .. all you need to do is play any other game on the market to realize this. Is being hit 95% of the time vs. being hit 5% of the time balanced? Is killing something in 5 hits vs. killing something in 25 hits balanced? It is not .. there will never be another MMO based on 3.5 or anything resembling it I am fairly certain.

Having said that, Turbine has done an amazing job implementing the elements of D&D that are really great .. namely spells, puzzles, traps and monsters! I did about 6 Garomel runs tonight and they were fun because of 1) Undead giant skeletons 2) Flying up and down a shaft 3) Being blasted with traps whilst doing #2, and not because someone in the group was one-shotting the undead giants while not getting hit (even though they were). Perhaps that is the focus of more puzzles in the new content .. to remind everyone that D&D was about what's between your ears, not what's between your legs ;)

[ChronosWolf]

to remind everyone that D&D was about what's between your ears, not what's between your legs ;)


Darn, really? I guess I need to stop "Roleplaying" with what's between my legs.:p

[Phidius]

Yeah, I've tried enervation... piece of cake to hit 12+ air elementals with Enervate as they toss me around the room. Make sure you get (and keep) your charge within 20 seconds of aggroing the Reaver, 'cause they show up a lot faster than they used to.

In testing, it seems that (on Normal), you have to hit them with 4-5 enervates before they will fail their FoD save (29 Fort save). Only kept track of it twice, as I was kinda busy staying alive, but it seems consistent with the other times.

Frankly, I agree with the sentiments of the OP. I used to enjoy this quest, and now it's become just another raid to grind. I'm certainly not going to run it after I get all the named items I'm looking for.

[Lehrman]

Wow, this threads not locked yet? The cube must be napping...

[Voalkrynn2]

First, let me start by apologizing to anyone who has criticized this game only to see me defending it and arguing with you.

Honestly, I'm sorry.

I've defended this game because my old PnP group was playing it, and because we met some cool people in the game. We all had fun doing our thing. We were so not uber, it was almost crazy. I'm done only 3 raids ever (VoN, Shroud, Reaver). Two capped characters, my main is still my first 28 pt build. Less than 2000 favor.

Our loot runs are From beyond the grave, sleeping dust, vale rares. Nothing special. A month ago I went ape**** when I won the Reaver Napkin on my main.

I say all that to give you an idea of how I play the game and how I'm not burned out, how I'm not at the very very end waiting for new content. I'm not a hardcore raider, I'm very casual.

Tonight, I've almost certainly made up my mind to leave the game.

First, we did the Shroud. Pug group, competent people. A couple of whiny people, but I expected nothing less (I know their guilds; bunch of crybabies). It was at least 5 times harder than it was before Mod 8. I had a 22k repair bill. It took us around 2 hours.

Yeah, I know uber people can beat it in 16 minutes, super duper. Don't care, shut up. This isn't about how awesome you are, this is about how a casual player with several good friends in the game is ready to leave when, yesterday, he spent much time defending this game.

So it took forever but we beat the Shroud.

Let's do reaver!

Yeah. Elite, wipe in like 2 minutes.

On normal, we manage to make it to the puzzle.

I'm the solver. I've spent hours practicing. I can solve the online version within 8 moves ALL the time, 6 moves most of the time.

I fail. Not because of the puzzle, but because the ****ing Air Elementals are tossing me around and I can't finish the puzzle.

We try again, can't even get to the puzzle (I think, I'm drinking at this point).

Again, we manage to get to the puzzle, the ****ing air ellies screw us again.

I'm not looking for Icy Rainments, I'm not looking to be crazy uber and 2 man the shroud by slapping my nuts on the keyboard, I'm just looking to have fun with the PnP group I used to spend my Thursday nights with before they all moved away.

Yeah, we can still play. Sleeping dust for the 50th time, what fun.

Running with the devils? Not after the ellie changes.

Ritual Sacrifice? Yeah, 25 runs and still fresh.

Rainbow? Screw that.

Coalescence? Screw that with a rusty railroad spike.

In their zeal to make things more "challenging" Turbine has made the game un-fun.

Even if we failed, I've ALWAYS had fun playing with my friends.

Tonight, we beat the shroud and it ****ing SUCKED.

Tonight, we failed like 4 times on the Reaver, and each one ****ing SUCKED.

So, undoubtedly getting more infraction points, thanks for nothing, Tubrine.

You ****ed up this game to the point where I will never ever defend it again.

And ask around, I defended the **** out of this game.

In closing, I'm almost certainly not re-upping my subscription. If I do, it's because my PnP group convinced me to until the tabletop online game comes out.

Way to go, Turbine. Way to not test anything, way to not take casual players into account, and in summation, way to **** up this game.

No more defenses from me, and no more dollars from me.

Big middle finger to you all.

Dude...............
First I feel your pain, I tried to do that new quest, Prey of the something or other, 3 times and the **** dragon died everytime we were 1/2 way thru the maze. We did not fight everything it is a beech unless you are über. In addition, I ran the Reaver and getting constantly knocked down does in fact blow donkey balls. If this game is only fun/runs are gonna be successful if you have a ueber build and run everything until you can do it sleeping then I as a casual player will stop having fun.

Second with a comment like "slapping my nuts on the keyboard" you gotta keep playing that is some funny sheet. PM me with your server and alts I will keep playing to hear commentary like that even if we can only be successful in Water Works :-).

Casual player experience has in fact diminished with the release of the last 2 mods...... please make this enjoyable for ALL players!

[Magnyr_Delorn]

I'm not looking to be crazy uber and 2 man the shroud by slapping my nuts on the keyboard

Oh God, I lol'ed:D

[Thame]

I have complained about this myself on these forums. Unfortunately nothing will ever change on this. While I totally agree with you, its just the way its going to be and no amount of complaining, griping will change their direction with this.

On a side note, all these people on here that say stop complaining apparently think they are the forums police. Ignore em.........they are called trooooooooooooooooooolllls






First, let me start by apologizing to anyone who has criticized this game only to see me defending it and arguing with you.

Honestly, I'm sorry.

I've defended this game because my old PnP group was playing it, and because we met some cool people in the game. We all had fun doing our thing. We were so not uber, it was almost crazy. I'm done only 3 raids ever (VoN, Shroud, Reaver). Two capped characters, my main is still my first 28 pt build. Less than 2000 favor.

Our loot runs are From beyond the grave, sleeping dust, vale rares. Nothing special. A month ago I went ape**** when I won the Reaver Napkin on my main.

I say all that to give you an idea of how I play the game and how I'm not burned out, how I'm not at the very very end waiting for new content. I'm not a hardcore raider, I'm very casual.

Tonight, I've almost certainly made up my mind to leave the game.

First, we did the Shroud. Pug group, competent people. A couple of whiny people, but I expected nothing less (I know their guilds; bunch of crybabies). It was at least 5 times harder than it was before Mod 8. I had a 22k repair bill. It took us around 2 hours.

Yeah, I know uber people can beat it in 16 minutes, super duper. Don't care, shut up. This isn't about how awesome you are, this is about how a casual player with several good friends in the game is ready to leave when, yesterday, he spent much time defending this game.

So it took forever but we beat the Shroud.

Let's do reaver!

Yeah. Elite, wipe in like 2 minutes.

On normal, we manage to make it to the puzzle.

I'm the solver. I've spent hours practicing. I can solve the online version within 8 moves ALL the time, 6 moves most of the time.

I fail. Not because of the puzzle, but because the ****ing Air Elementals are tossing me around and I can't finish the puzzle.

We try again, can't even get to the puzzle (I think, I'm drinking at this point).

Again, we manage to get to the puzzle, the ****ing air ellies screw us again.

I'm not looking for Icy Rainments, I'm not looking to be crazy uber and 2 man the shroud by slapping my nuts on the keyboard, I'm just looking to have fun with the PnP group I used to spend my Thursday nights with before they all moved away.

Yeah, we can still play. Sleeping dust for the 50th time, what fun.

Running with the devils? Not after the ellie changes.

Ritual Sacrifice? Yeah, 25 runs and still fresh.

Rainbow? Screw that.

Coalescence? Screw that with a rusty railroad spike.

In their zeal to make things more "challenging" Turbine has made the game un-fun.

Even if we failed, I've ALWAYS had fun playing with my friends.

Tonight, we beat the shroud and it ****ing SUCKED.

Tonight, we failed like 4 times on the Reaver, and each one ****ing SUCKED.

So, undoubtedly getting more infraction points, thanks for nothing, Tubrine.

You ****ed up this game to the point where I will never ever defend it again.

And ask around, I defended the **** out of this game.

In closing, I'm almost certainly not re-upping my subscription. If I do, it's because my PnP group convinced me to until the tabletop online game comes out.

Way to go, Turbine. Way to not test anything, way to not take casual players into account, and in summation, way to **** up this game.

No more defenses from me, and no more dollars from me.

Big middle finger to you all.

[Borror0]

I spent some time prior to mod 8 arguing that it is in Turbine's economic interest to scale quests so that normal is doable by casual players, hard by casual but good players and elite by top quality players. That was countered by a couple of very active posters who insisted that Turbine's focus is the high end, top flight player group.

I had argued that their estimates indicated only 10% of the population was in this top group so catering to them did not make good sense. I even pointed to the revamped introduction section in the NPE as proof that Turbine's focus was on the estimated 65% of us who are casual gamers.
That is not what you said.

You said that balance is unimportant and that we shouldn't feel the need to balance. Then, no matter how often we explained to you that it was in the interest of the casual gamers to have a balanced game or that it IS in Turbine's interest to appeal to BOTH casual and hardcore gamers at the same time.

You didn't like that argument. So, in order to prove your point made up some random numbers to prove your point, claiming that your numbers represent the reality.

Turbine doesn't want to loose its casual population. That would be a bad move. But, they don't want to loose their powergaming population either. That would be a bad move as well. It's a good thing for a game to appeal to different playstyles. If you want that to happen, you will need a balanced game.

However, you never wanted to understand that.

[Thame]

I was referring to your tone not the content. Because of all the yelling and swearing, .

I just have to ask...........how can one tell if someone is yelling on a forum? And how can u tell someones tone? LMAO

[noinfo]

First, let me start by apologizing to anyone who has criticized this game only to see me defending it and arguing with you.

...

Let's do reaver!

Yeah. Elite, wipe in like 2 minutes.

On normal, we manage to make it to the puzzle.

I'm the solver. I've spent hours practicing. I can solve the online version within 8 moves ALL the time, 6 moves most of the time.

I fail. Not because of the puzzle, but because the ****ing Air Elementals are tossing me around and I can't finish the puzzle.

We try again, can't even get to the puzzle (I think, I'm drinking at this point).

Again, we manage to get to the puzzle, the ****ing air ellies screw us again.

...


The problem with all of the "Updates" is that Turbines idea of making it harder is by increasing the difficulties of the mobs.

Does this make it harder? Yes for a lot of people it makes it harder in a way that is not "fun" increased spawn rates and mob types can achieve the same difficulty while keeping it fun.

[Uska]

hMM did rainbow its a pain maybe now but I like better since you cant really chesse it now, did running with the devils didnt seem any harder then before still like that quest, finally did reaver with a little fear thinking it might be harder well we had one caster a wf sorc and 3 clerics counting myself, well we did it just about as easy as before on elite, and yes there were more ele's tossing people around but noone died and they were slightly bothersome in the puzzle area, but I dont see any reason to jump on turbine I think all the changes were possitve in my mind.

[Uska]

You're right. I shouldn't use the public forum to post my opinion.

Thanks for calling me an ass, too. You clearly have a lot of value to offer to the conversation.

/laugh

While I dissagree with you, you do have the right to post your mind and there is no reason to call you names.

[Junts]

Yeah, I've tried enervation... piece of cake to hit 12+ air elementals with Enervate as they toss me around the room. Make sure you get (and keep) your charge within 20 seconds of aggroing the Reaver, 'cause they show up a lot faster than they used to.

In testing, it seems that (on Normal), you have to hit them with 4-5 enervates before they will fail their FoD save (29 Fort save). Only kept track of it twice, as I was kinda busy staying alive, but it seems consistent with the other times.

Frankly, I agree with the sentiments of the OP. I used to enjoy this quest, and now it's become just another raid to grind. I'm certainly not going to run it after I get all the named items I'm looking for.

Quit FODing them! They have a huge fort save. They do not have huge will or reflex saves. We have had no issues with the Reaver (though it requires the whole party to play and not pike) by using dancing ball (still works a lright from a good caster) and firewalling them to death. Also, having your tanks get charges as well helps; they can help fight eles and keep aggro without the knockdown.

This raid is still not hard. It was a -joke- before. I was in a broken PUG reaver 2 days before the mod. The group was lead by a new player who had never played the raid and still forming. The group was 11 and 3 people weren't in yet - including the cleric and 2 of the casters, the other two of whom were level 15. The leader went afk, put their headset on the keyboard and hit autorun. They ran across, activated the reaver and died. 7 people were inside, no healer, a warforged tank, 2 casters, my pally, a rogue, a ranger and a barbarian.

One of the casters pulled out a random repair crit damage wand. I got a charge, put on my devotion item, and main healed the raid as a paladin.

We completed. In fact, no one else died. I only used 3 of my 4 lay on hands.

This raid was too easy before. Seriously. I know you guys are angry, but seriously. It was -that- easy.

You want to get angry about raid changes, talk about making the HoX harder on normal for no apparent reason (though still beatable easily with slight tactical changes we found, elite will be insane now)

[Uska]

Yeah, I've tried enervation... piece of cake to hit 12+ air elementals with Enervate as they toss me around the room. Make sure you get (and keep) your charge within 20 seconds of aggroing the Reaver, 'cause they show up a lot faster than they used to.

In testing, it seems that (on Normal), you have to hit them with 4-5 enervates before they will fail their FoD save (29 Fort save). Only kept track of it twice, as I was kinda busy staying alive, but it seems consistent with the other times.

Frankly, I agree with the sentiments of the OP. I used to enjoy this quest, and now it's become just another raid to grind. I'm certainly not going to run it after I get all the named items I'm looking for.

well we didnt have enverate used in our group on elite and it did take about 3-5 casts at least per elie but destruction still was working on elite and bb did help some there as well. For me the quest is more fun since people cant really pike anymore

[Uska]

if It Took 2 Hours To Run Shroud, It Was Not A Competent Group. It Happens, Deal With It.

Reaver, The Party Has To Change Tactics, And It Is Still Not To Difficult. It Was A Good Chance, It Makes More Of The Party Involved In The Quest.

Qft

[Uska]

I defend this critique.

Before the "mod" (notice that is in quotes, because this was a nerf, nothing else). I understand the reaver was way to easy...and the shroud may have been also.

However, I ran the reaver and the shroud once the mod was in, and with very competent groups...it's insane. I thought turbine wanted to make this game easier for people who never played an MMO or D&D? maybe with the newbie areas, but higher lvls, it's not even close.

What do they do, they nerf the **** out of the reaver, because the elite a-holes can run it in 5 /12 seconds (embellished). And instead of making it harder solely on elite, ALL versions are very difficult. Seriously on NORMAL, no CC works, no FoD, NOTHING. on NORMAL!! We've got a caster that has put a lot of focus into Spell Pen, and that doesn't even help.

Also, while nerfing the reaver, they make a subteranne boss a piece of cake, and now people are pulling +2 tomes on like an 8% chance. The run takes like 10 min...look at the LFM's...oh wait...nerf coming monday.

So, Turbine...who are you making this game for? Everyone? Not likely...more like gearing it to the top 5%...because it's too easy for them. Screw the casual people who don't have 7 maxed toons and can loot the **** out of a quest. Also, I know, I know...wah wah...but seriously...I work hard, I travel for long periods of time to my job. I unwind and relax with this game...but now, all the fun is gone. The people I play with are not the ubers....we just managed to get everyone flagged for reaver...and now...we can't run it.

I'm glad I play CoH....because I enjoy that game. Now...DDO has become a PoS....and I'm ready to cancel too. We didn't even get our full mod...where's our hirelings? Oh wait...they couldn't get that right either..activation date TBD. While they were busy Nerfing these quests, they couldn't fix some old bugs too...but wait...that's not important. Just keep catering to the people 5% of the player base that is waiting 3 days after a mod for the next. Screw the little guy.

God...i can't wait for 4e tabletop. I'm gonna go play CoH and some other things, and seriously ponder why I still pay for this ****.



Sorry you not happy but I cant belive anyone would drop this for 4E tabletop might as well play wow.

[RTN]

I led a complete PUG through the new Reaver the other night on Thelanis. Had a few folks from good guilds, but no one I knew personally. Most of us hadn't been through the new version and were excited for a new challenge. We'd heard rumors the elementals had been beefed up. We made it through on our first try. One person died in the first part and 2 more on the second. It's harder, but still very doable if you're prepared. The increased challenge made it more fun.

Before:
*Soloable by the casters w/ a little luck even on elite. (I've done it and I'm not an elite player, merely competent)
*Easily duoable with a caster and tank w/ almost no chance of fail even on elite.
*In most groups melee basically do nothing while one (or more) caster, one cleric and one tank does everything until it comes time to kill the big boy.

Now:
*Soloable by casters? Maybe with a lot of luck. I'd love to see someone give it a go.
*Duoable? Maybe, need some luck again and good players. (AtD, give it a go!)
*Done by a full group? Easily if you're prepared.
*Melee should now all carry a dreamsplitter to help delevel the elementals. They should probably get the buff as well so they don't get knocked down (exception: acrobat builds).

Verdict:
We got spoiled by a raid that was a simple loot run after we figured out a trick or two. It definitely wasn't as a hard as a L14 (normal) raid should be. An elite L14 raid should definitely be much harder than it was...you had to try to fail it before. It's harder now as it should be. The increased challenge is fun. With a little preparation it is very beatable.

[Uska]

Balls don't work...not for us..not on Elite or normal. Maxed lvl 16 Sorc, wiz and bard. Are we talking casual players or people with full Tier 3 Shroud loot? I think the focus here is casual players.

And to the person who said don't come to the PUBLIC forums and complain. I think you need to look up the word PUBLIC. The elitists have their say...now we can have ours.

Umm I was geting destruction to land per few casts and my bb was doing pretty good on elite and no I dont have my shroud item all beefed up infact just have a blank google we only had one caster we did fine on elite with the clerics using bb and we had no deaths.

[Uska]

the more you complain, the more i complain, once it stops ther'll be no complaining...

Even if we dont agree they have the right to complain. To jump on them for them complaining reeks of trolling.

[Uska]

I disagree. I am a casual gamer and I am having fun. While your reasoning is valid, the truth is, many casual players ARE having fun. We find things that we like to make it fun. Yeah I have 2 accounts and 1 capped toon, it doesn't matter. I am having FUN. Logic goes out the door, when emotion is attached. Yeah the Reaver is harder. Oh well. We'll figure it out eventually. Humans like solving problems, and this is one problem that will be fixed. Heck, a bunch of Japanese figured out the Abbott. Granted, they were NOT casual Gamers, doesn't mean it cannot be done or it is unbeatable.


Or the quest starts not to be played. Turbine will notice that.



agree I am very casual and still having fun.

[Kulothar]

Tried two Shroud with a very competent group that has completed it dozens of times before. Pug but compentent guilds I trust. It was hard but not impossible. Unfortunately first time the pit fiend took extreme offense at our healers and wiped them all out in the first round. Nothing new, it happens. I lasted two more rounds with no healers (as a barb) and our last tank standing (bard) gated out in round 4.

Second time devil started randomly popping back to center which somehow agroed the earth ele on the tank on the devil. It went down from there. Since I was on the earth ele the devil popped over to help the earth ele even though he had never seen me. Then he agroed on the cleric that ran up to heal me. Which then popped the devil down to the wall group. To me that was just plain buggy. We tried killing them and reseting but ended up DD'ing out. So not a major change but laggy which caused some bugs and not an improvement.

Reaver.. Umm. it is supposed to be easy at lv 16 unless you are on elite then it should be even. It is supposed to be a raid rated at lv 14. Those are the stats as I remember it. Unless they change the loot to lv 16 loot on normal then it is supposed to be a hard raid for lv 12 characters isn't it?

Devs forget sometimes so people have to complain here or it won't get fixed.

[Laxxis]

where do you get to practice the puzzle online? That's all I really wanna know..

-Lax

[MacFionn]

well if your night ****ing sucked dont post your rage on the forums ass... we dont need your complaints!

Honestly... you can't come up with something better than this? Agree or disagree, at least the OP took time to explain where his very strong emotion was coming from and gave us context for his comments. Of course, you're welcome to your opinion - just as I am. I think comments like yours contribute far less to the overall dialogue than the OP's.

From a "big picture" perspective, complaints should be just as welcome as praise.

[Leyoni]

where do you get to practice the puzzle online? That's all I really wanna know..

-Lax

The Reaver puzzle is just Mastermind done in different colors. There are tons of online sites with solvers for Mastermind. There are a couple of solvers worked out for the DDO color scheme by players. There were a few messages on that when Reaver was still new.

[parvo]

+1

[DelScorcho]

Not taking any side in this argument, but what did they do to the Shroud? I pugged it yesterday twice and didn't see any difference.

[DarkSage1]

Seems like everyone just wants its to be easy imo. I like a challenge myself. Jeez you died, god forbid, rez and get over it

[Bebopalula]

Seems like everyone just wants its to be easy imo. I like a challenge myself. Jeez you died, god forbid, rez and get over it

WOO HOO! I agree whole heatedly - it is a freaking game you will die.

[Drinkin]

...I'm not looking to be crazy uber and 2 man the shroud by slapping my nuts on the keyboard...

Someone has got to teach me that trick!! I can text message with my /looks around /whispers "nuts" but I'm no where nearly skilled enough to 2 man the shroud with em.

On a serious note. I'm sick of the devs going back and adjusting anyting on any quest. Content is coming out slower than ever and we don't have half the stuff you talked about 2 years ago(guild housing, guild banks, druids, new races, etc etc. It's a catch 22 devs you lose customers cause you release content slow so you have less money to develope new stuff... If funds are lacking don't "fix" stuff that's not broken.

[Breck_N'Dwall]

The original poster had a few points, even if they were stated in a bit of a rant. The casual gamer has been left behind in this game because the elitists have nothing in life but this game. They insult and argue with anyone about anything that is not keeping with their own divine edict. I await the "uber" players that have argued with the poster about his opinion will bash me for this statement, but that act validates my point.

I doubt that most of the players on any given server could complete the end content, heck most of them don't have tier 3 gear either. I expect the snobs who have hijacked this thread will bash me for this statement too. In my opinion it is the truth.

I do think that the point to be made is that the difficulty between normal and elite needs to be a larger gulf than there is now.

[Drinkin]

Seems like everyone just wants its to be easy imo. I like a challenge myself. Jeez you died, god forbid, rez and get over it


WOO HOO! I agree whole heatedly - it is a freaking game you will die.

I love to play racing games. Gran Turismo for play station is one of my favorites. Older versions I eventually passed every race in first place and built up lots of money had tons of cars I played it for a long long time. The more recent versions they tried to get a little too technical and made the game quite a bit harder I eventually lost interest. If i fail a quest a bunch of times I'm ok with it. If I fail the reaver four times in a row I'm prolly pretty annoyed. With varrying degress of skill on this game turbine maybe should have made servers have different difficulty and then maybe even had a quarterly time when you could switch for free. Possibly even have a roleplaying server a casual server a powergamer server. Then tweak the difficulty on each one a little different... it's far too late for that to be put into effect but maybe for future MMOs that could work... A guildy of mine had the greatest Idea ever. Have a Newbie server. make it so you have to get 1750 favor to get off it. Once you do you can choose your new server and have your toons transfered. Wether 1750 or even 1000 favor it's a decent idea IMO.

[Hordo]

well if your night ****ing sucked dont post your rage on the forums ass... we dont need your complaints!

Yes, his night sucked, but we actually do need his complaints.

Turbine especially needs them.

They need to take a good long look at WHO IT IS WHO IS COMPLAINING. I am familiar with his "forum work" as it were and he has been a staunch defender of the Turbine cause. I have been on both sides depeding on the issue and sometimes we have disagreed in the past.

He is absolutely right to complain here. Turbine MUST consider the effect these changes will have on the casual gamer, the mainstay of their subscribers, for this game to improve.

[tihocan]

Don't really feel like reading the whole thread but:
1. I did a Shroud on thursday and didn't notice any difference. Sometimes, Shroud groups suck because people don't come prepared, that happens when bringing random people.
2. The Reaver is harder and I'm really thankful for this. It was a total joke before. Now it actually makes sense to bring more people in there. And it's still an easy raid once you adjust your tactics. And no, you don't need uber gear and skilled players to get it done.

[Mithran]

I don't defend Turbine often, and I work hard to be inoffensive because I'm Irish enough to hold grudges like a pit bull holds onto an arm, and I'm afraid of making someone like me mad. Having said that, I don't object to the Reaver being difficult, again. It had been too easy. One tank, one Cleric actively healing, one caster laying waste to the elementals and everyone else sleeping or getting the mana charge.

Tactics will evolve, as they always have, previously. The people in my guild play very well together and are mostly top-notch players, but our GM was in two Reaver raids that failed. He was surprised, but I remember that we've had this conversation, before. Personally, I'm disappointed to infer that my Sorceress will be less effective, and I'm not pleased that my Paladins will be relying on yet another clickie Enhancement instead of just being buffed, but that's how it goes. Once we collectively develop a system for the Reaver, it'll be easy again. Until then, enjoy the challenge of figuring out new tactics, or maybe you'd all like to change your vote on the Poll.

[iconiclastic]

I haven't done the reaver since the update so I would just like to know if disco balls still work in conjunction with mind fog.

[iconiclastic]

I don't defend Turbine often, and I work hard to be inoffensive because I'm Irish enough to hold grudges like a pit bull holds onto an arm, and I'm afraid of making someone like me mad. Having said that, I don't object to the Reaver being difficult, again. It had been too easy. One tank, one Cleric actively healing, one caster laying waste to the elementals and everyone else sleeping or getting the mana charge.

Tactics will evolve, as they always have, previously. The people in my guild play very well together and are mostly top-notch players, but our GM was in two Reaver raids that failed. He was surprised, but I remember that we've had this conversation, before. Personally, I'm disappointed to infer that my Sorceress will be less effective, and I'm not pleased that my Paladins will be relying on yet another clickie Enhancement instead of just being buffed, but that's how it goes. Once we collectively develop a system for the Reaver, it'll be easy again. Until then, enjoy the challenge of figuring out new tactics, or maybe you'd all like to change your vote on the Poll.

sun tzu had so many character defects,chiefly being that his strategies are based on optimal conditions,of course you will win a battle that you already know is an overwhelming victory.He wasn't the best of strategists but I'm sure he was great at board games.

[Mithran]

sun tzu had so many character defects,chiefly being that his strategies are based on optimal conditions,of course you will win a battle that you already know is an overwhelming victory.He wasn't the best of strategists but I'm sure he was great at board games.

For his time (2000 years ago), he was a breath of fresh air and The Art of War remains a military classic. The only comparable strategist at the time would have been Julius Caesar, and while he was ruthless and confident enough to take bigger chances, we know how his career ended. Sun Tzu's influence on Eastern military philosophy remains huge to this day, and for good reason. You prefer Clausewitz, perhaps?

[Quikster]

This is how to say goodbye (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=162781)

I'm all for people posting constructive complaints, and while there have been a few in this thread, most of this thread is simply unproductive.

You are not threatening me by leaving, if you are leaving then leave. If you are staying and can participate in an intelligent discussion about changes you would like to see made to the game, then do so and ignore the trolls :)

[Leyoni]

A guildy of mine had the greatest Idea ever. Have a Newbie server. make it so you have to get 1750 favor to get off it. Once you do you can choose your new server and have your toons transfered. Wether 1750 or even 1000 favor it's a decent idea IMO.

Didn't we already explain to you in the other thread on this that your guildy's idea is bad not good. This is the dumbest thing I've read today -- and that includes re-reading MY posts. :)

[ubis46]

He did make some valid points, when you get past the rant. We are paying customers and it seems when a New Mod’s get beats faster then intend they nerf it for everyone. I guess everyone has forgotten Abbot, as it’s still only being beat by the elite on the server. I know as my guild owns the shroud, but the price was high, as we have spent 2 months learning the puzzles. Countless resources and paid repair bills beyond anything you could imagine. The point is we don’t care how much time we have to invest to beat a quest, as that’s why we play the game, but for the casual player it’s completely unfair. The elite will change tactics and over come these changes, but the casual play is paying the price for what only maybe 5% of the server is capable of, as they don’t play enough to learn the tactics required.
There are 3 setting normal, hard and elite. They should set the tone of the raid. The hound’s is level 18 and it has been nerf, but you can still beat it. The abbot level 15 was nerf and is still almost impossible to beat, lag in any puzzle and your done. Lag anyone know when there are going to fix that? Instead of hammering him maybe you should have listen to what he was real saying. The casual player is getting short because of a few elite. Call me crazy and those of you who know me I am, but don’t the needs of the many out weight the needs of a few. Can you explain this to me, as it appears to me that the Dev’s egos control this game not the paying customer!

Wreckingball {Ravenguard}.

[Drinkin]

Didn't we already explain to you in the other thread on this that your guildy's idea is bad not good. This is the dumbest thing I've read today -- and that includes re-reading MY posts. :)

First I was problably too drunk when I read how stupid it was last time... second It's not something I'm expecting to happen nor really want to happen I like most of the people I quest with on ghallanda third I'm quite offended that you think that was stoopiter than the op!! :D

[Valzoric]

Sorry you not happy but I cant belive anyone would drop this for 4E tabletop might as well play wow.

I played WoW....if I wanted an experience similar to WoW...i'd go slam my head in a car door a few hundred times. Actually, I think the car door scenario might be more enjoyable.

[Runehammer]

I'm not looking to be crazy uber and 2 man the shroud by slapping my nuts on the keyboard

I'm know I'm probably late to the party but that line is fricking hilarious:D

[Captain_Wizbang]

Well you most certainly are bitter! I am one of the first 100 players of D&D from 1972, and I am a big fan of version 1 rules! (go figure) I was gun shy at version 2, elated but not impressed with version 3, shocked at version 3.5, and disgusted with version 4.0! What's my point? Games develop over time to accommodate user feedback, player strategy, market trends, and manufacturer competition! This is true for ALL games, PnP, table top, console and online MMOs!

Unlike WOW, the players of DDO, have a history or tradition if you will, for the paper game that Mr Arneson and Mr. Gygax developed back in 1971! And My last conversation with Mr Gygax 1 1/2 years ago, was centered on how technology has changed our gaming experience. We both agreed that all video games are what I call "instant gratification" gaming; and lose the romance and fun of not knowing what lurks ahead! (DMs have a way of making things unpredictable). This watering down of our beloved D&D, is a big sticking point for real gamers!
Ask yourself this; "Why am I playing this game"? My answer is, I think it's way cool to actually see a beholder, or mindflayer on a video screen, instead of a picture hanging from a cardboard DM screen!

I actually applaud these game designers, for incorporating the worlds most complex game into a video format! And, yes I have issues with a lot of things they have designed, BUT... We need to keep this in perspective my gaming friend. What will be your feedback when mod9 is released, or when we get hirelings, or you are playing your capped character in a level 20 quest! At what point do we get so frustrated with high end content that we go back to running lowbies all the time? We all will find our comfort zone in this game, and focus on that area of gaming.

Think about this. Have you ever played PnP with players that know so much, you felt like an idiot? If so, I'll bet you did not join a weekly game with them! I have won the open Gencon tournament with a multi/class character and real basic strategies! And put all those "super uber" geeks in their place! If they want to put themselves on a pedestal, let them! Stay within your comfort zone. Play with others that share the same values. Drop from groups that are not to your liking. Change the channel if you don't like what's on!!!

Some kindly advice. Wait for the cap to increase, then get your capped toon up a few levels. Then go back and see how easy this new content is to play! Stay away from those quests you listed! And get together with some players that don't have any maps, or previous knowledge of the new content. And slow down!!!! Enjoy the new stuff, get back to basics. Roll a new character, and play with some newbies to DDO. Get a character on the Thelanis server, and look me up Ffafhard, Recap, Goforit, Cheff! On a Tuesday night. I'll show you how to have fun playing a game I created, that uses the bounty hunter bags. Or I'll give you some pointers on running live roll playing in the game!

Please don't get caught up this criticism of a very complex engineering marvel! Put yourself in their shoes. How do you appeal to the masses, and the very small group of super uber players?

In the words of SPOK; " the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or one"

[Kreaper]

i'm Not Looking To Be Crazy Uber And 2 Man The Shroud By Slapping My Nuts On The Keyboard

I'm Know I'm Probably Late To The Party But That Line Is Fricking Hilarious:d

Agreed! :d

[Shyver]

Give me a moment, it's hard to type around my nuts being on the keyboard and all. :rolleyes:

While AtD does have a few "powergamers" for the most part we are made up of casual players that play a few hours in the evening. Few have Tier 3 anything greensteel and not the latest in raid gear. We have run the shroud several times since the update and haven't had any issues at all. We're not talking speed runs either, with breaks and buffs we're sitting at 75 min. runs so I think I can speak for some of the casual gamers out there who aren't outraged at the changes.

Has the game been made harder for the casual player? Yes it has, the game as a whole has been made more difficult. That is NOT a bad thing. It just calls for a change in tactics and strategy. If something isn't working don't continue to beat your head against the wall hoping that somehow it's going to start working. Try something new and adapt.

Most, if not all, of the casual gamers in the guild love the new challenges that are in the game. It took a group of us 101 min to complete the new Kobold quest on our first trip in and loved every min of it. Why? Because it was very challenging, and the last fight was hard to the point of insanity.

Failure in the Shroud comes from a couple of sources but the two largest are, lack of a strong "leader", or even worse, too many "leaders" in the group. I don't know the details of your 2 hour shroud, but if I had to guess I would say that there were to many people trying to call out different "tactics". Other less experienced players get confused and pandamonium ensues. It does suck that things went bad for you, but **** happens, adapt and move foward.

[Xyrandina]

I have been playing this game for 2 yearish. Big deal. I had not done the reaver until this past Saturday night. Not because I couldn't but simply because I am still addicted to gwylan's stand and ritual sacrifice...annnnnd the hound....hehe. Really though. We did the reaver on elite, a few guildies, mostly people I didn't know. As a first time reaver runner, my only thought was...what the eff. The longer I was in there, the more I drank, and the more I got blown around by air ellies. We wiped the first time, and struggled the second time. We had great, competent people in the group who had done it many times. Unfortunately for me, I waited a week too long. It wasn't very fun, it was chaotic. My abilities as a sorcerer have been diminished by the sheer difficulty of this due to those darn air ellies. I would love to do this again to get a better understanding of it, but for now, I will continue living in the hound.

On a lighter note, I ran the hound a few times this weekend, I was the leader - a woman with a voice - we succeeded. I got **** loot, but I felt victorious.

Sincerely,

Xyrandina/Alandrica - Argonession

PS. I hope everyone had a fantastic halloween!

[CSFurious]

however, i can only imagine what it would be like for a new player to get started in this game now pugging

i was lucky and stumbled onto this game in 9/06

when you no longer are having fun playing, you need to do something else

if you play this game constantly, you are going to get bored

your boredom is not the fault of Turbine

at the end of the day, this is pretty cheap entertainment for me & lets me relax

[Uska]

nvm decided not to rant

[Orion]

Not taking sides but...

...I always find it odd when "casual" players complain about not being able to do high end quests. That's kind of like average drivers complaining they can't race at Indy. I'm a "casual" pool player, too. I know enough not to play for money. Ever. There are too many hustlers who spend 18 hours a day practicing trick shots. That doesn't mean I don't have fun playing pool: I just know my limits.

It's possible that the devs decided that a quest for Elite (as in, "too anal to take a break to c8rap") players was getting too easy and tweaked it to keep their interest. It's possible they were just being brainless boneheads and changing stuff around w/o regard for its effect on the players. Whatever, it is what it is. If your old tactics don't work step back and think about it, try something new. If that doesn't work try something else. Keep repeating until either you get the cheese or it stop being fun. When it stops being fun, find something else to do that is. The main diffierence between a "casual" and "elite" player is his tolerance for looking for Plan B's.

[Merkinsal]

Yeah, I've tried enervation... piece of cake to hit 12+ air elementals with Enervate as they toss me around the room. Make sure you get (and keep) your charge within 20 seconds of aggroing the Reaver, 'cause they show up a lot faster than they used to.

In testing, it seems that (on Normal), you have to hit them with 4-5 enervates before they will fail their FoD save (29 Fort save). Only kept track of it twice, as I was kinda busy staying alive, but it seems consistent with the other times.

Frankly, I agree with the sentiments of the OP. I used to enjoy this quest, and now it's become just another raid to grind. I'm certainly not going to run it after I get all the named items I'm looking for.

I found the same thing on a sorc with a 34 charisma and reavers napkin. Maybe a character with a 38 or 40 and some necro focus could pull that off but, come on, after 4 enervations everything should land so I don't get it.

Anyway, my thoughts after my run on elite and then normal were not to complain but to consider what changes I could make in tactics. That run was fun for the first time in a long time. I am curious if the end rewards or the 20th completion selections will change to give capped characters more incentive to run the raid. Frankly, I don't see that as a level 14 quest anymore.

[Hafeal]

Orion QFT. I will say theblaz, my experience with Shroud has been 50/50 on normal for full completion. Part 2, depending on creatures pulled and party make-up and part 4 have been tough. To me, the Shroud is not a "loot" run for casual gamers, especially when you consider that you have to complete it so many times successfully to be able to create a tier 3 item.


Not taking sides but...

...I always find it odd when "casual" players complain about not being able to do high end quests. That's kind of like average drivers complaining they can't race at Indy. I'm a "casual" pool player, too. I know enough not to play for money. Ever. There are too many hustlers who spend 18 hours a day practicing trick shots. That doesn't mean I don't have fun playing pool: I just know my limits.

It's possible that the devs decided that a quest for Elite (as in, "too anal to take a break to c8rap") players was getting too easy and tweaked it to keep their interest. It's possible they were just being brainless boneheads and changing stuff around w/o regard for its effect on the players. Whatever, it is what it is. If your old tactics don't work step back and think about it, try something new. If that doesn't work try something else. Keep repeating until either you get the cheese or it stop being fun. When it stops being fun, find something else to do that is. The main diffierence between a "casual" and "elite" player is his tolerance for looking for Plan B's.

[SynfoolaCMT]

My take on this is...

After doing a Mod 8 Reaver compared to Mod 7, it didn't feel more "challenging". It was just more annoying. We beat it without wipes in a PuG, but a couple of the players had already forewarned us that old tactics wouldn't work. The thing is, the big "challenge" was that the annoying Ele's died a lot slower. That's it? And I get to wait 3 days to do it again? LOL There was nothing that set it apart as an improvement to Reaver in any way.

I like the game and all, but I strongly feel that you don't make something more challenging by upping the annoyance factor. Only a masochist would think that replacing a tennis ball with a small beehive for a couples match is "challenging".

[samsarai]

First off I would like to say that with a wife and two children, I too am a casual player. I have been around since beta and am a member of a fairly old guild (Adventures League Eberron) however most of my guildies are gone. A Saturday night might bring, at most, four guildies out of the woodwork. Therefore pugs are a way of life now and a crapshoot as to the competence of the group.

I quit for over a year when the desert quests came out due to the massive amount of death debt racked up and the fact that the fun was leached from the game in a desperate attempt to make it more challenging. For the powergamer that has no other existence than to come home from his job and climb into his surround sound gaming chair, fire up his $10k alienware mega system attached to his 72" HD TV and spend the next fourteen hours peeing in a catheter and soiling his Depends I'm sure the change wasn't even noticed. But how many powergamers are there compared to the number of people who log on four times a week to have some fun?

The game is hemorrhaging players at an alarming rate, the powergamers will be out of content when the casual gamers are gone if they (the casual gamers) are indeed the major contributors to the financial backbone of ddo. I suppose all games are fun when they first appear and slowly devolve to the status of downright boring. DDO was always different for me though as I was trying to recapture the moments spent around the table on weekends with a couple of two liters, a couple large pizzas and a ton of friends rolling dice and exploring caverns in hopes of draping our characters with new found loot and experience.

My two cents for what it's worth...

[Valzoric]

To comment on the shroud...

I've run 2 Shroud runs since the Mod went in...both were a success. What I do notice that has changed with the Shroud is that 1.) The Blades come in faster on part IV. 2.) The Fiend seems to wander a little in part IV, but I only saw this on one run, so maybe a fluke. 3.) On Part V, it seemed like there were more blades and they were all over the place. Again, I only saw this in one of the runs.

Both runs were made with experienced groups. The first run everyone seemed to be caught off guard by the changes but we pulled through. The second run didn't even seem to have a hiccup...just very smooth start to end. So ,the changes that were made to the shroud may have increased the difficulty some, but not nearly to the extent that Reaver was changed.

[kruggar]

I Think we are sufering one of the most significant issues of mankind here too..

CHANGE

people dont like changes, they like defined patterns, if u planned something and it didnt go the way u expected u get mad, feel discouraged to countinue and so on.

CHANGE is one of the most common stuff we will find in live and in DDO too, we just need to learn from the CHANGEs and learn wich ones are good and wich ones are bad changes.

All of us know that the reaver was a joke, but i think turbine overreacted to that, now we have a big portion fo the player base that is not able to complete the raid, so i think we need more changes there.

The new content is fun for the power gamers but i think many of those fights are too tought for the average player, a room locked with tons of fire elies that just burn through the normal defenses we have is not fun foir the average player. Of course the power gamers will deal with the fight they have the equipment, resources and other power gamers to help them deal with it.

I play PnP DnD since first edition and for more then 20 years now, im an experienced GM and the first think u can do to burn your adventure is giving the players many many magic items.

DDO has 2 major issues in my opinion:

1) the inverted to-hit progression 0/0/+5/+10/+15 stuff is killing this game cause no mater how much ac u have u will be hited by enemies last attack and yours will hit too, this made the devs to start inflating enemies AC and mostly HPS wich transformed the DPs builds into a joke unless they use wounding of punturing weapons.

2) DDO gives too many loot and everyone have everything, my main is a battle cleric i carry more then 20 weapons and have almost all raid loot around the game, but i will never forget the time back in lvl 10 cap when having a vorpal was priceless, a couple people on the server had a orpal, another couple paralizer and no tactics was around a certain type of weapon and we made thoutgh the dragon raid without, vorpals, paralizers , banishers and stuff like that. was a time for players with skill cause equipment didnt meant too much. now players are mostly the equipment they carry and no matter how good u are without proper equipment u wil have a real hard time doing the high lvl quests.

For me DDO is a funny game and i love DnD more every day, i know both of those problems are almost impossible to solve, cause u cant take away the equipment we have without a MAJOR cry out from the players, but if DDO was my weekly DnD section i would change the to-hit progression rules and cast the biggest "MORDENKAIN DISJUNCTION" u have ever saw in Dungeons and Dragons.

My cleric is a 28 point build, my first char and i think its a little ridiculous u can reach that high numbers with a lvl 16 char in DnD.

AC: 56
HPs: 412
SPs: 1600
to-hit: +44

in normal to hit progression this char would have a long fight againt himself, in DDO 412 hit point is nothing more then a 10 second fight against as average dps char

U can start to hit hard against me now cause what im asking is simpy this.

NERF US ALL MONSTERS AND PLAYERS for the sake of the game.

kruggar

[swooshrp]

I somewhat agree with the OP.

In the essence that Turbine should not be revamping old quests that are below the current level cap to make them a challenge for a group of capped toons. I don't mind some of the inherent changes ala Rainbow and its as designed change, but making any lower level quest more challenging just so that capped toons have somewhere to go is stupid. The quest needs to remain level appropiate.

[Leyoni]

sun tzu had so many character defects,chiefly being that his strategies are based on optimal conditions,of course you will win a battle that you already know is an overwhelming victory.He wasn't the best of strategists but I'm sure he was great at board games.

Just curious Iconiclastic, how many years did you serve in the military and who did you advice on strategy and tactics? You see, I'm wondering because many of Sun Tzu's principles were applied in the 1991 Gulf War and subsequently in the 2003 Invasion of Iraq.

One of the most important precepts is that of being prepared and not fighting if there are alternate means of achieving victory -- principles that seem unfortunately lost on some of today's leaders. They are lost in DDO as well -- although I'd argue that we like it that way.

DDO is for the hack-and-slash mindset. Other people can play Sims online.... ;)

[Aeneas]

Nobody ever said you had to kill the elementals.


mindfog and will save based cc works just fine.

[Phidius]

Quit FODing them! They have a huge fort save. They do not have huge will or reflex saves. We have had no issues with the Reaver (though it requires the whole party to play and not pike) by using dancing ball (still works a lright from a good caster) and firewalling them to death. Also, having your tanks get charges as well helps; they can help fight eles and keep aggro without the knockdown.
<snip>

Yes, I know to not use Fod or PK... I was just testing the effectiveness of Enervate in combo with them. I was only able to focus on one elemental because I killed the others with Wall of Fire :)


well we didnt have enverate used in our group on elite and it did take about 3-5 casts at least per elie but destruction still was working on elite and bb did help some there as well. For me the quest is more fun since people cant really pike anymore

Really? I'll bet in your normal PUG you're still going to have 3-4 people doing all the work, and the others waiting around for their chests.

I mean, sure fighters can get their charge and wield Dreamspitter to help enervate the elementals. Of course, they're going to need to get it very fast, and I hope your cleric/casters don't need to get a charge to recharge their mana and stay on their feet. It's too bad the Dreamspitter requires that you complete the raid multiple times to get, though...


where do you get to practice the puzzle online? That's all I really wanna know..

-Lax

This is my favorite...

http://globalsoftware-inc.com/harncw/Reaver%20Trainer%20DDO/Reaver%20Trainer%20DDO.html

[Phidius]

Nobody ever said you had to kill the elementals.


mindfog and will save based cc works just fine.

Actually, the Reaver isn't the threat here (until he takes your charge away - the Reaver giveth and the Reaver taketh away)... all it takes is one elemental keeping you pinned down and thrown into the middle of the room. With the increase in the number of elementals spawned, it would be quite a feat to keep all of them in perpetual dance mode.

I'd love to see a screen shot of completion with 0 kills. Not being sarcastic - I really would!

[Mindspat]

It's just that after almost 2 years of playing this game, Turbine has made it "not fun."

If this sounds like whining, so be it. It kinda is.

It's exactly what it is. ;)

[miceelf88]

I found the most annoying thing about the Reaver change that they appear to have really scaled back on the giving of charges. I wish they had found a different way to make it harder than the unstoppable knockdown machines which just aren't fun.

But the bigger issue is the casual-friendliness. I had a similar rant after they initially made traps on elite crazy. To their credit, so many people complained they scaled it back.

They fixed rainbow to work as intended, no biggie. But they go back and revisit some quests (like Reaver) while on the other hand, they say they won't revisit old quests. And you can't even get them to talk about the Abbott, which is not only casual-unfriendly but less-than-perfect-connection-unfriendly to boot. They really do seem to focus on making sure things are more challenging, and really seem unwilling to revisit stuff that is offputting to casual players or just plain not fun.

Making sure that players down pwn the game is an important part of development, don't get me wrong, but it's not the only part. Fun is important too.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

You contradicted yourself in the same post. You use the word CAUSAL and GRIND in the same sentence. Grinding indicates the ability to be logged on for hours, looting the same thing over and over again. Casual indicates the ability to log on, run something and log off. So which would you prefer?

Tactics? We knew the reaver was changed. We tried 3 times, with 3 different tactics. Again, I'm sure if I had hours to GRIND and try every tactic in the game we could hammer it down and have a specific group of x casters/x clerics/etc with x items and the sort. But how does this benefit the CASUAL gamer?

Casual gamers comlaining about a raid taking too much effort :rolleyes:

Turbine, please, please, please, ignore this nonsense from the OP and their supporters.

Thanks.