Warning What Devs didnt tell you about Mod 8

[calgrissom]

There are a few very obvious changes in Mod 8 to some existing raid content that they "Forgot" to mention.

Some things ive noticed.

Reaver

Reaver now spawns atleast 3x the original amount of air elementals as he did before. On elite these elementals are CR:26 so they are much harder to deal with than before. Not sure if this is a AI bug or not but the reaver doesnt respond to Intima aswell as before. You can intima him but he seems to like to run off and attack other random raid members. Also standing under the arch doesnt mean you are safe. We had 4 members standing in the archway get tossed to the middle of the room pre elemental spawns and thrown into the spikes.


Hound

I cannot speak for the hound personally at the moment however I have talked to atleast 3 different people from 3 different raid groups that all reported the same thing. On normal The hound is not responding to intima, she also seems to have increase DPS or the small hounds are mush squishier than before. All 3 reported that Now the gems are dropping so random they could only obtain 4 to charm the dogs. Also The trash mobs are spawning at about 3x the original rate.


Now im sure turbine will say.... "This is a unexpected change with our new AI enhancments" but they should be honest with there CUSTOMERS and let us know they have made changes to these raids. I dont expect them to tell us what changes but a "Hey we modified raid X and Z" would atleast be respectful to us"

Edit
Not sure if this was and issue before Mod 8 but when you become feebleminded and use a shrine under the effect of feeblemind after you finish resting it does not refresh your turn undead attempts. You will be left at 0 even tho your charisma has returned to normal

[ArkoHighStar]

You mean he is actually harder on elite oh no:eek:

[calgrissom]

Not saying the raid is impossible. It was harder to take the reaver down but not impossible. My only issue with these changes is they are done without warning of any kind. Again Turbine doesnt understand MMO gamers and how insane "Stealth changes" make people. Again all I would ask for is "We have made changes to raid X" but they would rather just **** there player base off.

[suitepotato]

I was in a HoX normal run last night with a group that should have wiped the floor with that quest. Stones dropped at about 1/3 the frequency and mobs spawned about 3x more and faster. Beholders were out very early, and renderers were everywhere.

EDIT: I normally don't have to rez people or cast solid fog, but our casters were overwhelmed and killed quick. I ran out of solid fog clickie charges and you can cast or fight so if you have five reavers running in random aggro patterns amongst the six melee... Do the math.

[Tarackian]

Ran TS last night on normal (ran it on hard the night before without issue) and the Fire Ellys and Lava wiped half the party before we got to the door and we were properly buffed.

Beware of the unposted changes. Things are a changin'

[calgrissom]

I would just like to see a turbine rep in here fessing up to these changes. Im sure it wont happen and the cube will eat this thread because that tends to be the way they deal with people confronting them on the forums.

[Canadarox]

All I can say is 'stealth' nerfs suck a$$ big time. Especially quests such as HoX and VoD, simply due to the fact that they are already resource intense quests for certain classes (i.e CLERICS). Making them even more so is slowly making this game unenjoyable to play. I like a challenge yes, but to get absolutely stomped on with no warning what so ever when you are used to it "a certain way" is almost inexcuseable.

[vtecfiend99]

I would just like to see a turbine rep in here fessing up to these changes. Im sure it wont happen and the cube will eat this thread because that tends to be the way they deal with people confronting them on the forums.

the only thing that pulls a response from them is ass kissing or rule breaking.

[Nott]

We had 4 members standing in the archway get tossed to the middle of the room pre elemental spawns and thrown into the spikes.
I'm not sure where the archway is, but my last Reaver before the patch, I was tossed up, slid along the ceiling, and into the spikes (in time to see another ghostly player there). I was standing with the crowd, just inside and to the left. I never saw this happen before, but since it only affected two of us (on the raid I was on), perhaps its a random component?

[mcop]

Actually the patch notes did say all elementals will now scale accordingly.

[SableShadow]

Could just be bugs, man. Bug report it and see what happens.

[Strakeln]

the only thing that pulls a response from them is ass kissing or rule breaking.ding ding!

[Tarackian]

ya....lvl 10 quest on normal....wipes half a raid party....with resists, protects and hasted. I also read the release notes but didn't expect to see this level of difficulty. I'm not complaining just posting a warning. I don't mind difficult roadblocks to overcome, just came as a nasty shock to what was expected.


Actually the patch notes did say all elementals will now scale accordingly.

[suitepotato]

The hole in the ceiling at the reaver has a wall around it. Unless you are right in the middle of the room you should hit nearby but not go in. Gravity reversal is supposed to be you falling STRAIGHT up, NOT getting "sucked" into the middle like it was a vacuum cleaner.

If it is true that it is happening, let Turbine admit to it.

As far as HoX goes, there's zero reason for the changes. It was already a 50/50 wipe chance on normal with experienced level 16 pugs full of legendary twinked toons. Now, a dedicated team of super twinker ultra legendary toons MIGHT have a 25/75 chance of living to dying. The dogs break easily and quickly, they die easily, and the mobs are NOT aggro'ing properly but running in random directions switching from enemy to enemy. One renderer hits you, you swing, but he's already turned away at the instant of his swipe and running towards a pally across from you. Do you hit? No, it doesn't even roll a to-hit in the usual nearly impossible to hit a monster in the back way previous to mod 7.

The mini-beholders spawn MUCH quicker and sooner, and they will sit at max range distance for their eye beams, and pot shot the party in the fog dealing with the renderers. I took two of them out and as I turned back to the fog and renderer disco, another one floated up behind me.

[silverraven]

the only thing that pulls a response from them is ass kissing or rule breaking.

hmmm I've tried Kissing Of The Buttocks and I haven't got very far in using that path.


On another note, I hate suprises too

[Yuesu]

People crack me up... OMG it's difficult so I can no longer just sit back and collect my uberness while a handfull of other ppl do everything...


PPL WANT RANDOM, but we want to know about it in advance...:o

PPL WANT CHANGE, but we want to complain about it when we get it...:P

PPL WANT HARDER, as long as it's just as easy as before...;)


What does it matter if a dev come here a says "Yep we improved the AI and this is a result" or "Yep we tried to sneek one in on you and you caught us"

All that matter is Its more exciting, changes stuff up, and make ppl play for a change. So get out there and HAVE FUN and quit worring about the small stuff...

[ArkoHighStar]

ya....lvl 10 quest on normal....wipes half a raid party....with resists, protects and hasted. I also read the release notes but didn't expect to see this level of difficulty. I'm not complaining just posting a warning. I don't mind difficult roadblocks to overcome, just came as a nasty shock to what was expected.

the lava is a known issue

[SableShadow]

No, it doesn't even roll a to-hit in the usual nearly impossible to hit a monster in the back way previous to mod 7.

If I had to pick one single bug I'd like changed, it's the "can't hit a running monster in melee" bug. :mad:

[smatt]

Booooooooo! No more Reaver "Beer Runs" That changes my whole beer schedule..... :rolleyes:

[vegabond1969]

I like a challenge yes, but to get absolutely stomped on with no warning what so ever when you are used to it "a certain way" is almost inexcuseable.

Hehe, thats the problem. Everyone is "USED" to it being a certain way. Gotta love randomization. I've heard lots of people in game say "Nah I've ran that to hell and back." Theres always problems when they first come out with new mods, every game has them, but just once in a while it's nice to enter a quest and say WOW! We got owned but that was definately different. Besides, it's not like your loosing anything by dying, no xp loss or any other penalty. Oh wait yea you get the death head when you rez for like a minute :eek:

[Deathseeker]

The hole in the ceiling at the reaver has a wall around it. Unless you are right in the middle of the room you should hit nearby but not go in. Gravity reversal is supposed to be you falling STRAIGHT up, NOT getting "sucked" into the middle like it was a vacuum cleaner.

If it is true that it is happening, let Turbine admit to it.

As far as HoX goes, there's zero reason for the changes. It was already a 50/50 wipe chance on normal with experienced level 16 pugs full of legendary twinked toons. Now, a dedicated team of super twinker ultra legendary toons MIGHT have a 25/75 chance of living to dying. The dogs break easily and quickly, they die easily, and the mobs are NOT aggro'ing properly but running in random directions switching from enemy to enemy. One renderer hits you, you swing, but he's already turned away at the instant of his swipe and running towards a pally across from you. Do you hit? No, it doesn't even roll a to-hit in the usual nearly impossible to hit a monster in the back way previous to mod 7.

The mini-beholders spawn MUCH quicker and sooner, and they will sit at max range distance for their eye beams, and pot shot the party in the fog dealing with the renderers. I took two of them out and as I turned back to the fog and renderer disco, another one floated up behind me.


Just curious...what should be the percent chance of success of a high level pug in a high level raid? 100%, 25%, 75%? Seems to be if the raid has a pattern that makes it 100% successful if you know the pattern, that's a little boring (ie Reaver). But then again, that's just me, and seems like everyone has run the Reaver a zillion times so maybe that says something.

I'd rather see there by several different ways of doing it...with a 50/50 chance of success (meaning the average skilled/equipped pug is just barely able to complete).

IMO, the shroud is probably right at that balance today for an average pug...I felt the hound was too dependent on "knowing the pattern" and if you did it was too easy...if you didnt it was impossible...just an opinion though...

[Leyoni]

There were comments on the forums already from pre-release that Reaver would be harder.

Didn't see anything about Hound but it was probably there.

Did see groups for Reaver looking only for L16 players. Wondering if that is a bit excessive. Doesn't sound like it is really that much harder. If 4 characters got tossed into the room and sucked up into the spikes and the quest still was completed it just means they should have /death on the other side of the barrier instead of stealing the mana for all the buffs. :p I mean, piking is piking no matter how you do it -- right? :D

[suitepotato]

People aren't complaining about it being different or harder. They're complaining about those things IN COMBINATION WITH ZERO NOTICE. We're left with two basic possibilities. Either it was working previously as then intended and they changed intent and the adventure to match their whim, or it was never working as intended and they changed it without noting it.

If any quest is not working as intended, they should be honest enough to come out and say, "enjoy it while you can because so and so is designed to attack with whatever and faster than he is doing and we will be fixing that next update".

I don't want to hear nonsense about being a surprise or not wanting to encourage short-term exploiting or loot festivals. The devs have a LONG history of pulling stealth changes which they NEVER address on the forums EVER and we just put up with it. Never mind the quests which are DEFINITELY broken and not working as the release notes indicated they should, which they refuse to revisit.

Of course, their executive masters are a large part of the issue.

[woundweaver]

the only thing that pulls a response from them is ass kissing or rule breaking.

thats what ive been trying to tell people, but there are some self righteous people who think turbine can do no wrong....

[smatt]

Those bastards added another barrel to Kobold's New Ringleader! You now have to break 76 things to get ransack...... :mad:

How dare they hide such evil tactics from us..... :D

[suitepotato]

Just curious...what should be the percent chance of success of a high level pug in a high level raid?.

For a pug where six of twelve are toons I know from experience are in the top 5% of toon builds for quality and strength, and played by **** fine people who know their stuff, and the other six are best effort toons and good players... 50/50 on something like HoX normal when we're talking level 16 toons. The adventure on normal is above 16 as it is so 50/50 given human intelligence, creativity, and experience.

If the raid is elite, less. HoX normal should not have a better than 3 out of 4 chance of whittling a prepared party of level 16s down to nothing but if it does... IT SHOULD BE FROM THE BEGINNING. A no-word no-admission obvious change in difficulty in an established quest is just plain wrong.

[Kadagan]

I would just like to see a turbine rep in here fessing up to these changes. Im sure it wont happen and the cube will eat this thread because that tends to be the way they deal with people confronting them on the forums.

QFT... I've got the points and screen shots to prove it.

[suitepotato]

Those bastards added another barrel to Kobold's New Ringleader! You now have to break 76 things to get ransack...... :mad:

How dare they hide such evil tactics from us..... :D

Look, just because you fall into the pit at Foundation of Discord and laugh it off doesn't mean the rest of us want to get wiped in that stupid dwarf break room. :p

Oh heck, I just gave the devs more ideas...

[Leyoni]

People aren't complaining about it being different or harder. They're complaining about those things IN COMBINATION WITH ZERO NOTICE.

Except we had notice via the forums. That is the point. Turbine doesn't owe it to us to explain every change and the Risia players don't owe it to us either.

Players who were on Risia mentioned the greater spawn of elementals and that the quest was more difficult. It doesn't take a genius to figure the rest of it out.

--- Longish Aside ---

Was talking to my son in the car last night about what I would have done differently if I had designed DDO. I mentioned that dungeons wouldn't always be the same. That each time you walked in there would be something different -- improvements, more rooms, boxes stacked in new places, more mobs, less mobs, bosses in the first room, bosses not even present (out for a night on the town), captives in the prison cells, not in the cells -- in other words none of the static stuff that we see.

When I played PnP the dungeons were never the same and stuff was never predictable. The DM didn't say "Tonight you are going into the lair of the Boogly Boogly who will be in the third room to the right where he'll summon Gergoyles once every 30 seconds. It will be just like it was last week when you ran this dungeon." We never ran the same dungeon twice. If for some reason we did it wasn't the same because the monsters had all changed, the traps had been reworked, and so on.

Compaints like "you made it harder and never told us" were never heard. We were too busy having fun to act like cry babies.

[Leyoni]

that stupid dwarf break room

Make it a room where you get to break halflings and people will be logged on 24/7. Can't you just see it, halflings running in terror as people shout "Aww throw harder, that one didn't bounce high enough!"

Think of the awesome sound effects.

Of course Turbine would have to up raid groups for this to 4, maybe 5 times the current size.... :D

[Grosbeak07]

thats what ive been trying to tell people, but there are some self righteous people who think turbine can do no wrong....

Quick question: How can a self righteous person think turbine can do no wrong?

Kind of defeats the purpose of being "self " righteous, don't you think?

[Acellon]

If I had to pick one single bug I'd like changed, it's the "can't hit a running monster in melee" bug. :mad:


They sure can hit you no matter how you move though can't they?

[cdbd3rd]

Except we had notice via the forums. That is the point. Turbine doesn't owe it to us to explain every change and the Risia players don't owe it to us either.

Players who were on Risia mentioned the greater spawn of elementals and that the quest was more difficult. It doesn't take a genius to figure the rest of it out.

--- Longish Aside ---

Was talking to my son in the car last night about what I would have done differently if I had designed DDO. I mentioned that dungeons wouldn't always be the same. That each time you walked in there would be something different -- improvements, more rooms, boxes stacked in new places, more mobs, less mobs, bosses in the first room, bosses not even present (out for a night on the town), captives in the prison cells, not in the cells -- in other words none of the static stuff that we see.

When I played PnP the dungeons were never the same and stuff was never predictable. The DM didn't say "Tonight you are going into the lair of the Boogly Boogly who will be in the third room to the right where he'll summon Gergoyles once every 30 seconds. It will be just like it was last week when you ran this dungeon." We never ran the same dungeon twice. If for some reason we did it wasn't the same because the monsters had all changed, the traps had been reworked, and so on.

Compaints like "you made it harder and never told us" were never heard. We were too busy having fun to act like cry babies.

Just to throw an extra - though probbaly unwanted - stone into the soup, the spalsh screen does remind us that gameplay may change during play.

The basic designs probably will never allow for totally random dungeons with the DDO we know right now, but they can randomize a little bit with the timing/location/CR of various mobs. If it was different every time we entered an instance, it would make it a little more interesting, wouldn't it?


_

[redoubt]

The devs consistantly say that they will not go back over old content. This usually shows up when someone has an idea about old content. i.e. flagging system of the Dragon raid.

But, while saying they won't gove over old content, they consistantly do so.

I'm not sure how to take that... :(

ps I think the NPE is great, though I was opposed to it in concept. But, they did tell us what was up on this one.

[dragons1ayer74]

They sure can hit you no matter how you move though can't they?

This is terrible and very annoying. Its not called AI its cheating plain and simple, monster can hit you because they know exactly where you are on the server. They hit then run...you swing at what you see but they are really 20 feet away. If the server code can not be accurate instead of making the mobs move about more try making them move less!

[Grimgore]

Ran TS last night on normal (ran it on hard the night before without issue) and the Fire Ellys and Lava wiped half the party before we got to the door and we were properly buffed.

Beware of the unposted changes. Things are a changin'

This is an actual bug that was admitted to in the release notes that for some reason the lava in certain areas is set to max damage. I am hoping it will be fixed soon as I saw the same thing you did last night on Normal. My 16 WF Barb got toasted in less than 30 sec with full buffs and Firestorm Greeves...

Also noticed that the new version of Sewer Rescue in the newbie part is muffed up. The girl (Arrissa) moves from cell to cell and is not always in with the "end" bad guy. First run she was, subsequent ones she was all over the place. I am also not liking the fact that almost all of the new quests are made for rogues or people that can open locks, even on the solo levels. This means less chests for the rest of us...

-Grim

[SableShadow]

This is terrible and very annoying. Its not called AI its cheating plain and simple, monster can hit you because they know exactly where you are on the server. They hit then run...you swing at what you see but they are really 20 feet away. If the server code can not be accurate instead of making the mobs move about more try making them move less!

Lag shooting has always been a bit annoying. :)

"I don't care if you are Clan, I thought we agreed, NO ELEMENTALS!!!!" :mad:

[VirieSquichie]

The devs consistantly say that they will not go back over old content. This usually shows up when someone has an idea about old content. i.e. flagging system of the Dragon raid.

But, while saying they won't gove over old content, they consistantly do so.

I'm not sure how to take that... :(

ps I think the NPE is great, though I was opposed to it in concept. But, they did tell us what was up on this one.

There's only one way to take it...involves a barrel...need I say more?

Changes that make some sort of storytelling sense, great. Changes that have no reasonable explanation even in a high fantasy world...especially ones that penalize players for thinking and force us into the One Path that the dungeon designer wants us to take...ugh.

[Angelus_dead]

Except we had notice via the forums. That is the point. Turbine doesn't owe it to us to explain every change and the Risia players don't owe it to us either.
No, absolutely untrue.

Players who notice something in a patch does absolutely not count as an announcement from the devs, and just because something is detectable in gameplay in no way excuses them from mentioning it in the release notes. They don't have to tell exactly what was changed, but something like "Tuned difficulty in Hound of Xoriat" is part of the job for a software developer.


When I played PnP the dungeons were never the same and stuff was never predictable.
Why would you say a thing like that?

[Giselle]

I just wish they would focus on *NEW* content instead of messing with the old stuff. Is making the Reaver harder going to make it more exciting? Prolly not. I want to go into a quest and not know what's around every corner. The only way to do that is to give us something new, not mess around with the old stuff.

And, it doesn't have to be an AWE INSPIRING MONSTER MOD. Just give us a new quest here and there. That way, you can make sure that it works before you toss it out there, and keep us happy that we're getting some new content every few weeks or so.

Just my two copper pieces. :D

[Drinkin]

People crack me up... OMG it's difficult so I can no longer just sit back and collect my uberness while a handfull of other ppl do everything...


PPL WANT RANDOM, but we want to know about it in advance...:o

PPL WANT CHANGE, but we want to complain about it when we get it...:P

PPL WANT HARDER, as long as it's just as easy as before...;)


What does it matter if a dev come here a says "Yep we improved the AI and this is a result" or "Yep we tried to sneek one in on you and you caught us"

All that matter is Its more exciting, changes stuff up, and make ppl play for a change. So get out there and HAVE FUN and quit worring about the small stuff...
I'm totally fine with random, harder, and change although what I'm not ok with is turbine putting off hirelings cause they were too busy messing with old content. If hirelings should be out in mod 8 in october I think that they should release mod 8 in october with hirelings!! I'm quite sick of having late mods and not getting things that they've been talking about since I started the game back in august 06. I have about 7 months left already paid for if things don't change I can't see myself renewing.


If I had to pick one single bug I'd like changed, it's the "can't hit a running monster in melee" bug. :mad:
Honestly as far as any of my complaints in this game I have this issue very very few times and usually when lag is at it's peak. I play with graphics on the highest settings.


Hehe, thats the problem. Everyone is "USED" to it being a certain way. Gotta love randomization. I've heard lots of people in game say "Nah I've ran that to hell and back." Theres always problems when they first come out with new mods, every game has them, but just once in a while it's nice to enter a quest and say WOW! We got owned but that was definately different. Besides, it's not like your loosing anything by dying, no xp loss or any other penalty. Oh wait yea you get the death head when you rez for like a minute :eek:
It's not about the quest being a certian way and having to stay that way. If randomness was programmed in I'd love it but if they only way to have randomness is to have the devs revisit a quest and change it I say stop wasting time and release some new content before we all get bored and leave.

No, absolutely untrue.

Players who notice something in a patch does absolutely not count as an announcement from the devs, and just because something is detectable in gameplay in no way excuses them from mentioning it in the release notes. They don't have to tell exactly what was changed, but something like "Tuned difficulty in Hound of Xoriat" is part of the job for a software developer.
Sure it is and I don't really care if they do that but they shouldn't always be releasing mods and updates late or on the last day of the month they said it would be out on and releasing it in incomplete form.



Why would you say a thing like that?
Why would you bother to ask him why he would say a thing like that?

[Angelus_dead]

Why would you bother to ask him why he would say a thing like that?
Well, although I would like an answer to the question, you are correct that I shouldn't expect to get one. So really I asked in order to bring that comment to the attention of others.

[Elkor]

Another thread of level 16 lifers complaining .. what a shocker.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

Not saying the raid is impossible. It was harder to take the reaver down but not impossible. My only issue with these changes is they are done without warning of any kind. Again Turbine doesnt understand MMO gamers and how insane "Stealth changes" make people. Again all I would ask for is "We have made changes to raid X" but they would rather just **** there player base off.

I disagree strongly.

Raids and other challenging quests should be changed, without notice, whenever the devs see (by quietly joining pugs) that they are far easier than intended.

It helps keep the game interesting.

[Delphinia]

I'm totally fine with random, harder, and change although what I'm not ok with is turbine putting off hirelings cause they were too busy messing with old content. If hirelings should be out in mod 8 in october I think that they should release mod 8 in october with hirelings!! I'm quite sick of having late mods and not getting things that they've been talking about since I started the game back in august 06. I have about 7 months left already paid for if things don't change I can't see myself renewing.

QFT.

I just feel like they bite off more than they can chew. I feel like they are constantly telling us they are going to do more then they end up giving us. I understand that making new content takes time to do it well and I think they do a good job most of the time. I wouldn't want them to compromise quality for quantity. Just wish that if they say they are going to put A, B, C, D, E and F into a mod that we don't only get A, B, and C. That just leaves me feeling disappointed.

[Film]

Had this been done during the content drought than it would have been a...COOL...they are switching things up to keep us from getting complacent. Now it's more of a quick reaver for timer and back to new content....what the ____ just happened!

How you handle it depends on the day your having!

[Mindspat]

I was in a HoX normal run last night with a group that should have wiped the floor with that quest. Stones dropped at about 1/3 the frequency and mobs spawned about 3x more and faster. Beholders were out very early, and renderers were everywhere.

EDIT: I normally don't have to rez people or cast solid fog, but our casters were overwhelmed and killed quick. I ran out of solid fog clickie charges and you can cast or fight so if you have five reavers running in random aggro patterns amongst the six melee... Do the math.

Are you implying that the quest requires a more diverse party?

Regardles, there should be announcements in the module notes detailing: Raid Bosses are less influenced by mere mortal's attempts to intimidate them. :D

[Drinkin]

Well, although I would like an answer to the question, you are correct that I shouldn't expect to get one. So really I asked in order to bring that comment to the attention of others.

While I didn't expect nor did I really want a response from you(it was a rhetorical question) for some reason you did. That being said I'll go as far as to let you know what I got out of his post.... He'd get more fun out of this game if there was an element of randomness.

Not only that but I might point out the fact that you quoted one line of a post that doesn't make much sense with out the rest of the post... You and that other guy I'm not overly fond of have a knack for doing that and it would seem you're attempting to make it sound like the person your quoting doesn't know what they're talking about.

[Angelus_dead]

That being said I'll go as far as to let you know what I got out of his post.... He'd get more fun out of this game if there was an element of randomness.
Obviously that's what he meant, but that doesn't explain why he decided to say so.


you're attempting to make it sound like the person your quoting doesn't know what they're talking about.
Wrong.

[Drinkin]

Obviously that's what he meant, but that doesn't explain why he decided to say so.
Have you read the OP? It was about the changes in the game that may or may not have been forewanred(this is not the relavant point so try not to get hung up on it) Leyoni I would assume thinks that change should be more often and possibly more in depth. As to why he wrote exactly what he did it's because he thought it was a pertinent point. I don't think he cares wether or not you do.



Wrong.

That's kind of a matter of opinion.

[faldordadink]

why don't you guys stop bellyaching, I mean really, complaining because you weren't told by the devs that they made changes to some very easy raids, or are you just complaining because they aren't so easy anymore and you actually have to figure out a new way of beating them?

YOU ARE PLAYING THE BEST GAME AVAILABLE AND STILL B*******G ABOUT IT.

Give us all a break and do something constructive, I know you are all capable of doing that, you have proven you are smart time and time again. Get off the Devs backs for making unanounced changes and go and figure out how to beat the changes. Sheesh you guys make my 9 and 6 year old girls look mature.

[WeaselKing]

As far as HoX goes, there's zero reason for the changes. It was already a 50/50 wipe chance on normal with experienced level 16 pugs full of legendary twinked toons.

Huh?!? Who the hell are you running with?

[Impaqt]

Increasing Spawns is not the same as Changng a Quest... Adjusting their CR Isnt either. THat takes very little time to do... and that sounds liek all thats happened here....

Changing the entire flagging mechanism for the dragon would indeed be a lot of work. But making Velha spawn her minions regardless of who she sees and doesnt see would be a very simple change. and One I expect someday.

I dont recall people whining when they reduced the Ele spawn in the Reaver..... Has it gone all the way back to the original Spawn rate? I doubt it.

As for the hound on normal... The only question on that has been "are we going to complete it in 6 or 7 minutes?"

It was way to easy for its level. A few more mobs whould jsut require a slightly different tactic.

[Bronko]

One important thing to note whether or not you agree with the other changes to the 'old' Reaver raid is this: if you /death in the antechamber you will be rez-ported to your bind point instead of going to the death room.

In addition, if you die in the antechamber after the quest starts by letting the air eles beat you up you will NOT go to the dead room. Instead your soul-stone stays there and you can't get your loot. We had a party member learn that the hard way last night.

No more late-joining piker runs. If you want Reaver loot you have to be inside the barrier when it starts.

[incontinetia]

I have noticed the difficulty increase, but in spirit with the new lowbie named loot there may be a more fun reason for these changes.
It is possible that the release of level cap 20 and the armor/new crafting could make these quest as easy as before. Maybe new spells and new abilities will make up for this combined with loot.
I just hope that this means some new content sooner rather then later.
Also- when you are talking to an old raid boss that you can still fight, it somehow makes me feel that the story is a little lost.

[samagee]

There are a few very obvious changes in Mod 8 to some existing raid content that they "Forgot" to mention.

Some things ive noticed.

Reaver

Reaver now spawns atleast 3x the original amount of air elementals as he did before. On elite these elementals are CR:26 so they are much harder to deal with than before. Not sure if this is a AI bug or not but the reaver doesnt respond to Intima aswell as before. You can intima him but he seems to like to run off and attack other random raid members. Also standing under the arch doesnt mean you are safe. We had 4 members standing in the archway get tossed to the middle of the room pre elemental spawns and thrown into the spikes.


Hound

I cannot speak for the hound personally at the moment however I have talked to atleast 3 different people from 3 different raid groups that all reported the same thing. On normal The hound is not responding to intima, she also seems to have increase DPS or the small hounds are mush squishier than before. All 3 reported that Now the gems are dropping so random they could only obtain 4 to charm the dogs. Also The trash mobs are spawning at about 3x the original rate.


Now im sure turbine will say.... "This is a unexpected change with our new AI enhancments" but they should be honest with there CUSTOMERS and let us know they have made changes to these raids. I dont expect them to tell us what changes but a "Hey we modified raid X and Z" would atleast be respectful to us"

Edit
Not sure if this was and issue before Mod 8 but when you become feebleminded and use a shrine under the effect of feeblemind after you finish resting it does not refresh your turn undead attempts. You will be left at 0 even tho your charisma has returned to normal

The only people that this post has merit with are those running plat selling businesses. For those that adventure, they plan on changes, even when there aren't any.

[MrWizard]

ya....lvl 10 quest on normal....wipes half a raid party....with resists, protects and hasted. I also read the release notes but didn't expect to see this level of difficulty. I'm not complaining just posting a warning. I don't mind difficult roadblocks to overcome, just came as a nasty shock to what was expected.

yea, lava hurts more, but there are quite a few ways to get to the entrance without walking in it...or much. Maybe time for a diff path.

Also, I think there intent is you actually combat the ele's a little instead of running by them. A caster with a 1st level spell hypno would help tremendously. Charm monster or suggestion can help. Or you can fight them all.

As for intimidate, now that many are using it as a skill the devs can see it in action and have probably adjusted it to be a little more realistic at times. Nerf or challenge, you decide. I learned long ago that cool ways of building a toon can be nerfed, but in this case intimdate is still useful even if they really nerf it. However, you may have to do more in a party now that the AI can change a bit.....more challenge.

AS for the hound, those reavers and other mobs are not red right? As I got blasted before for mentioning fighter crowd control I will say it again. Cripple, stat drain (str and dex), destruction, curse, slowburst, trip, stunning blow, and a host of other things takes a monster down to nada in a few swings with a few fighters on them. The more the fighters swing in the mob, the less the mob can do. Vorpal is fun but a few cripple/1d6 str/1d6 dex blasts and the monster is not much of an issue. I am sure new ways to control mobs will come to the forefront, like running them all to one corner with fog and stuff (symbol pain, fear, etc, etc, etc)...

If anything these changes will give a month of thinking to some very smart people and you know they are trying to be the first to figure out plan 'b'

[DoctorWhofan]

Ran TS last night on normal (ran it on hard the night before without issue) and the Fire Ellys and Lava wiped half the party before we got to the door and we were properly buffed.

Beware of the unposted changes. Things are a changin'

yay! CHALLENGE!!!!

[frugal_gourmet]

It would've been nice to have been officially told. Still, I do feel that one day I will recover from the emotional scars caused by being left out of the loop.

[DoctorWhofan]

WHo cares!!! TS this weekend! BOO yah!:D:D:D:D:p:p:p:p

[suitepotato]

One important thing to note whether or not you agree with the other changes to the 'old' Reaver raid is this: if you /death in the antechamber you will be rez-ported to your bind point instead of going to the death room.

In addition, if you die in the antechamber after the quest starts by letting the air eles beat you up you will NOT go to the dead room. Instead your soul-stone stays there and you can't get your loot. We had a party member learn that the hard way last night.

No more late-joining piker runs. If you want Reaver loot you have to be inside the barrier when it starts.

That's fine with me. I only joined one reaver late and that method of going to the room with a /death was new to me. Fine, whatever. I personally prefer parties to fill before starting or take down the LFM and start. Having people join raids late should be raids like TS, not reaver or HoX or VoD where getting there is a pain anyhow or the barrier is there like the reaver for a reason.

HoX is already hard enough as many have noticed that it is a race to beat her before the spawn rate increases (it did seem to do so over time) and without a shrine to recharge mana, you better beat her before the mana is gone or start all over again. Now, you have to beat her down even faster, and she beats the doggies down faster on top of the faster beatdown you get from the keeprs and renderers showing up.

I suspect HoX parties will become more caster-centric if this stays the rule, and other people will be buying fog and whatnot clickies, and clerics will be dropping more bbs. And mana pots. I expect mana pot donations for normal to start being the usual like VoD runs, and probably scrolls for the clerics as well.

So if that's where that is going, then they should kick up the loot in terms of mana pot falls, scrolls, plat, to help players fund their runs there. Or we can just run PoP two dozen times in between timers to fund the runs or whatever. I expect this will be less of an issue at level 20, but right now it's making it a bit harder than people want or expected, and worse it is being done to an established raid without warning, and in contravention of the fact that in gaming, there's a certain average challenge level beyond which satisfaction falls rapidly among everyone but the hardcore masochists.

[kruggar]

For a pug where six of twelve are toons I know from experience are in the top 5% of toon builds for quality and strength, and played by **** fine people who know their stuff, and the other six are best effort toons and good players... 50/50 on something like HoX normal when we're talking level 16 toons. The adventure on normal is above 16 as it is so 50/50 given human intelligence, creativity, and experience.

If the raid is elite, less. HoX normal should not have a better than 3 out of 4 chance of whittling a prepared party of level 16s down to nothing but if it does... IT SHOULD BE FROM THE BEGINNING. A no-word no-admission obvious change in difficulty in an established quest is just plain wrong.

dude.. this quest have being done as a farm in the last months.. i dont remember a failure in a normal run since second week and on elite runs we succedd 90% of the time.

[Orion]

Except we had notice via the forums. That is the point. Turbine doesn't owe it to us to explain every change and the Risia players don't owe it to us either.

Players who were on Risia mentioned the greater spawn of elementals and that the quest was more difficult. It doesn't take a genius to figure the rest of it out.

--- Longish Aside ---

Was talking to my son in the car last night about what I would have done differently if I had designed DDO. I mentioned that dungeons wouldn't always be the same. That each time you walked in there would be something different -- improvements, more rooms, boxes stacked in new places, more mobs, less mobs, bosses in the first room, bosses not even present (out for a night on the town), captives in the prison cells, not in the cells -- in other words none of the static stuff that we see.

When I played PnP the dungeons were never the same and stuff was never predictable. The DM didn't say "Tonight you are going into the lair of the Boogly Boogly who will be in the third room to the right where he'll summon Gergoyles once every 30 seconds. It will be just like it was last week when you ran this dungeon." We never ran the same dungeon twice. If for some reason we did it wasn't the same because the monsters had all changed, the traps had been reworked, and so on.

Compaints like "you made it harder and never told us" were never heard. We were too busy having fun to act like cry babies.

Speaking as a DM who used to take the cover off one official A&D module, put it on another, and let the players peek over my shields before the game, I can't see any problem with that.:D I've always wondered why the dungeon instances are stacked with static breakable items - I have this picture of some poor gnome pulling a cart full of crates and barrels, restocking the static points after I've Finished out. There is some randomness, yes - the switch isn't always in the same place, the barrel may be empty one instance and have 91 copper pieces the next, etc. The chests rarely give the same treasure twice. But never enough to really make any difference. If there's a Red Name in the dungeon he's always behind THIS door and never THAT. If I pull out of a dungeon it takes 5 minutes - and always exactly 5 minutes - to send fresh guards to the passageways I've cleared and for the Cleaning Gnome to pick up the mess I left behind. I'm not really asking for the monsters to have better AI; more like the "Dungeon Master" monster supposedly running the place to have better AI, I guess.

[Borrigain]

Lag shooting has always been a bit annoying. :)

"I don't care if you are Clan, I thought we agreed, NO ELEMENTALS!!!!" :mad:

Battletech quote, quiaff? NICE!!!!:D

"Bargained well and done" :)

Borr.

[frugal_gourmet]

WHo cares!!! TS this weekend! BOO yah!:D:D:D:D:p:p:p:p

I don't know if you read this yet, but they also turned Tempest Spine into a single room quest. Luckily, they spruced it up a bit by adding in several hundred air elementals.

[Mockduck]

I don't know if you read this yet, but they also turned Tempest Spine into a single room quest. Luckily, they spruced it up a bit by adding in several hundred air elementals.

Fire and Ice are now NPC's helping you out as well. Man, they have funny banter!

[Rav'n]

people Crack Me Up... Omg It's Difficult So I Can No Longer Just Sit Back And Collect My Uberness While A Handfull Of Other Ppl Do Everything...


Ppl Want Random, But We Want To Know About It In Advance...:o

Ppl Want Change, But We Want To Complain About It When We Get It...:p

Ppl Want Harder, As Long As It's Just As Easy As Before...;)


What Does It Matter If A Dev Come Here A Says "yep We Improved The Ai And This Is A Result" Or "yep We Tried To Sneek One In On You And You Caught Us"

All That Matter Is Its More Exciting, Changes Stuff Up, And Make Ppl Play For A Change. So Get Out There And Have Fun And Quit Worring About The Small Stuff...

/signed!

[frugal_gourmet]

Fire and Ice are now NPC's helping you out as well. Man, they have funny banter!

And the quest is now sponsored by Dentyne(tm) chewing gum.

[ubis46]

All I can say is 'stealth' nerfs suck a$$ big time. Especially quests such as HoX and VoD, simply due to the fact that they are already resource intense quests for certain classes (i.e CLERICS). Making them even more so is slowly making this game unenjoyable to play. I like a challenge yes, but to get absolutely stomped on with no warning what so ever when you are used to it "a certain way" is almost inexcuseable.

This is just another find example of them against us attitude they have taken in making changes to the game. You here them talking about the over inflated economy and how they are looking to fix that. Then they make changes to these quests making them even harder and more resource intensive! One wonders if there are the plat farmers, hell real world auctions only take 10 percent, yet they take 33 percent. The price of Major Mnemonics has gone insane and forget the price of heal scrolls and other required resources for cleric to be affective in this game. We need to make it clear we are PAYING customers and this is unacceptable. If you’re going to make these changes then you better start upping the drop rate for Mnemonics like stacks of 10, as opposed to one. Drop the price we pay for cleric scrolls and or up the cleric mana, as it long over due.

[DoctorWhofan]

I don't know if you read this yet, but they also turned Tempest Spine into a single room quest. Luckily, they spruced it up a bit by adding in several hundred air elementals.

How dare....!!!!!!

I hATE YOU!!!!!!!


@$@&#($#&(@(@#&!!!!!!!!1!!!!!!!

[DoctorWhofan]

Fire and Ice are now NPC's helping you out as well. Man, they have funny banter!

I hate you, too! Stupid webcaster-thing-ee-dude!

[Hafeal]

All I can say is 'stealth' nerfs suck a$$ big time. Especially quests such as HoX and VoD, simply due to the fact that they are already resource intense quests for certain classes (i.e CLERICS). Making them even more so is slowly making this game unenjoyable to play. I like a challenge yes, but to get absolutely stomped on with no warning what so ever when you are used to it "a certain way" is almost inexcuseable.


This is just another find example of them against us attitude they have taken in making changes to the game ... The price of Major Mnemonics has gone insane and forget the price of heal scrolls and other required resources for cleric to be affective in this game. We need to make it clear we are PAYING customers and this is unacceptable. If you’re going to make these changes then you better start upping the drop rate for Mnemonics like stacks of 10, as opposed to one. Drop the price we pay for cleric scrolls and or up the cleric mana, as it long over due.

*cough* Come on ... do you guys really believe this?

Hound is and has been the NEW Reaver - except everyone has something to do and there is a realistic chance of failure. I love it much more than Reaver for that reason. IF they made Reaver harder, god bless them. Gives 10 or 11 others something to do ...

I am not an uber player. I don't EVER carry pots for sps (I am saving mine for the next two years to run VoD :p). You got what is on my spell bar and that is it. I run Reaver, Hound and Shroud ... no problems. And, uh, unless you know a secret shop I am unaware of, you can't buy those pots anyway other than on the AH wherein you can't dictate the market.

So, you ran Hound and Reaver 1 time and were taken off-guard - almost like running the dungeon for the first time! What's the worst that happened? You died and had a repair bill.

Now you can laugh about it and go after better next time! :)

[Deathseeker]

So is there concern that these raids are actually too difficult now?

I think if you think these raids are too difficult, post your in game name so one of the more skilled guilds can volunteer to mentor you through it after they take all of 7 minutes to figure out the change and overcome it.

I do understand the desire to be informed that some type of change occurred before being blindsided. I think that's a fair point...but let's not overdramatize it! That leads to one run that was probably wasted because you weren't prepared for something different. That's annoying to some people, I get that. But that's the extent of it. It isn't any bigger deal than that though. It's a one time thing.

Learn some moderation people...no wonder the devs ignore most of the complaints. Some extremely valid concerns turn into giant drama parties and lose all their substance.

Valid point here, but let's not completely overdo it...

[Angelus_dead]

I do understand the desire to be informed that some type of change occurred before being blindsided. I think that's a fair point...but let's not overdramatize it! That leads to one run that was probably wasted
What else it leads to is that in every other patch, people get worried that something has been secretly nerfed or broken in this or that quest. Some dragon aggros different, some construct moves different, whatever. It gets so that you're afraid to give helpful advice to someone because maybe the devs secretly changed it without telling and you don't know if your experience is still accurate.

(Just imagine you were giving a newbie hints on how to kill the STK boss...)

[roggane]

so i haven't gone through and read every post. forgive me if this is posted already.

But I'm thinking the number of baddies spawned goes up for higher the difficulty.

Been running a new lowbie through quests n/h/e, each one has spawned more monsters as I've gone up in difficulty.

Might explain SR spawn rate, etc?

[Falco_Easts]

I disagree strongly.

Raids and other challenging quests should be changed, without notice, whenever the devs see (by quietly joining pugs) that they are far easier than intended.

It helps keep the game interesting.

I concur.

Another stealth nerf! When you close the game and log back in the character you last played is the one selected on you character selection screen!!! The Dev's are trying to get you to play only one character!!!

They changed the screen at the vendors so it starts on Buy not Sell!!! They are trying to get you to buy stuff by accident instead of selling!!!

See, not everything makes the release notes. It happens.

[Deathseeker]

What else it leads to is that in every other patch, people get worried that something has been secretly nerfed or broken in this or that quest. Some dragon aggros different, some construct moves different, whatever. It gets so that you're afraid to give helpful advice to someone because maybe the devs secretly changed it without telling and you don't know if your experience is still accurate.

(Just imagine you were giving a newbie hints on how to kill the STK boss...)

Agreed...but for only like 2 days after the mod. By then, everyone who is experienced has heard or seen the changes and has started to adapt. For lowbies, they didn't know how to do it the first time so not knowing it changed doesnt matter.

So I agree with your point...but it only creates an issue for a couple days. The "paranoia" that something might have been changed sorts out pretty quick.

Besides, given all of the other issues right after a mod is released (bugs, lag, hotfixes, etc), I doubt these stealth nerfs are tangibly that big of a deal for a couple days, and then it becomes a non-issue at all.

So yes, agreed, it's better to put one sentence in the release notes, but IMO that's as much to avoid forum drama as it is anything else.

[DoctorWhofan]

Agreed...but for only like 2 days after the mod. By then, everyone who is experienced has heard or seen the changes and has started to adapt. For lowbies, they didn't know how to do it the first time so not knowing it changed doesnt matter.

So I agree with your point...but it only creates an issue for a couple days. The "paranoia" that something might have been changed sorts out pretty quick.

Besides, given all of the other issues right after a mod is released (bugs, lag, hotfixes, etc), I doubt these stealth nerfs are tangibly that big of a deal for a couple days, and then it becomes a non-issue at all.

So yes, agreed, it's better to put one sentence in the release notes, but IMO that's as much to avoid forum drama as it is anything else.

Yeah, but this is the DDO forums, and we love the drama here!!!

Speaking of which, have we have the DoOM! been mentioned on this page?


DoOOOOOooOOOOOOOoooooooOOOOOOOMMMMMMmmmmmMMMMMMMM! !!!!!!111!!!111!

[muffinlad]

I concur.

They changed the screen at the vendors so it starts on Buy not Sell!!! They are trying to get you to buy stuff by accident instead of selling!!!

See, not everything makes the release notes. It happens.

I ALMOST bought two shields last night because of that......but now i am over it.

muffinbard

[Xithos]

I think its great that some tweaks were made to these raids to make them more challenging and involving (Hound just wasnt difficult enough on elite and the Reaver is a 3 or 4 man show) but documentation that tweaks are being made to the raids should come up in the release notes.

[lobode]

I read through alot of this and I don't think everyone gets what all the issues are. People aren't complaining about things being harder. Hound is screwed up so intim does not work or it needs a ridiculous amount as my intim tank with a 49 unbuffed intim on normal with all the buffs to boost it could not land an intim once on her. Tried on elite first and figured I was getting bad rolls but come on, on normal I should have at least got her once. It actually seemed like she was immune to it but wasn't getting the message.
I don't mind making things harder but wasn't adding more mobs enough. Why nerf intim like that unless this is not working as intended. Or is intimidate that godly that boss mobs should be immune to it and it only work on trash mobs like stat damage does.


Oh yeah and I do think that turbine owes us to at least say when they change a quest. They do not have to say what exactly they did but they should tell us they did something. And they should really stick to their word when they say they won't change old content. ITS total B S. I was really excited about alot of the new stuff but it really isn't anything, it seems more to me like they just wasted time "fixing" old quest when they should be working on other stuff.

[Balkas]

So what? You fail one time and have to adjust tactics.

If they would've admitted to changing the quests, you'd probably fail the first time trying to figure out new tactics anyway.

[query]

Sorry you uber twinked toons, this is D&D Online, where STRATEGY occasionally gets added into the patch or update.

People who use one trick ponies like intimidate, please get new ponies.Sometimes a method does not simply work.


And to the [bleep]hats who say this will be shut down for our complaining then use the rudness and act like some of us are sychophants any time we agree (and trust me I've been notably angred over things before and posted it) IT'S THAT ATTITUDE that gets the cube here. Stop your cursing, flaming and learn to post civily, or go to the flame forum.


Finally,don't discuss your points or screenshots here or anywhere. It's against the rules and you put Turbine in an awkward place removing posts/infracting and/or closing threads down due to one or two people out of many who break forum rules.


Trust me, you'll always win a lose contest and therefore lose. Few of us understand the need that sometimes we have to pick our battles, choose our words, and win by coming in second place.

And enough with the one sentence quips. You look as irritating as we claim you were last time. Only directed at people who do that everywhere not just here, so don't feel singled out, thank you.


PS, where IS Mystic Theruge when you need him?

If he's gone, NO I and you CANNOT have his stuff!

[Lehrman]

There are a few very obvious changes in Mod 8 to some existing raid content that they "Forgot" to mention.

Some things ive noticed.

Reaver

Reaver now spawns atleast 3x the original amount of air elementals as he did before. On elite these elementals are CR:26 so they are much harder to deal with than before. Not sure if this is a AI bug or not but the reaver doesnt respond to Intima aswell as before. You can intima him but he seems to like to run off and attack other random raid members. Also standing under the arch doesnt mean you are safe. We had 4 members standing in the archway get tossed to the middle of the room pre elemental spawns and thrown into the spikes.




Does this mean that Reaver once again spawning the number of eles that it did prior to the spawn rate being quartered? Are kills at quest end at least 100 or so like they were originally?

[Gabrion]

Isnt the real issue that new content comes slower than molasses in january for this game, yet the programmers somehow have time to piddle with these kinds of pointless changes?

[query]

Seriously, the content changes include the revamps,so the piddling is done in an effiecient manner (it's not like we don't have hirelings....wait a minute.....)

The easieer fixes are added first while the more complex fixes are still being qa'ed and eventually tested, no joke this time.


Isnt the real issue that new content comes slower than molasses in january for this game, yet the programmers somehow have time to piddle with these kinds of pointless changes?

[dragonofsteel2]

Personal I hate when they go back and change any old quest. Yes I want a challenge but not the old stuff. I can careless about the reaver will not care about even if they made it harder. The hound was annoying on elite already, if did not go in with hand pick players it just was not going happen and can careless if less skill players beating on normal. Good for them. Changing old quest to up the challenge is never the way to go at the game. Changing old quest to fix bugs is fine. To me looking back all the time is nothing but sure way to lose customers. Look ahead not backwards please. I have not even play the new low lvl dungeons because careless about the new player exp., although if it works and brings new players great. This another reason I think it is dumb to up the challenge of old quest, new players need the quest to learn how to advance in skill and get items to complete with players that know right were to go and what to do.


Leave the quest ago accept to fix bugs please.