Icy Rainment

[Capstern]

Rumor has it that Icy Rainment are due for a nerf?

I have heard several people saying that the +4 dodge on icy rainment might be getting changed to something else to bring it back down to reality.

Anyone know. Last I heard rumblings was it would become natural or deflection...so a split of dodge and one of the other 2

Anyone heard or seen anything official?

[Agarwaen]

Better be just a rumor.

[ShadowFox1978]

Rumor has it that Icy Rainment are due for a nerf?

I have heard several people saying that the +4 dodge on icy rainment might be getting changed to something else to bring it back down to reality.

Anyone know. Last I heard rumblings was it would become natural or deflection...so a split of dodge and one of the other 2

Anyone heard or seen anything official?

Icy rainments already have a deflection bonus. Would be really stupid to change the dodge portion to overwrite an existing property.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Why would they nerf it?

Is AC really that game breaking in DDO?

'My God, those guys with 60 AC and Icey Rainment are getting hit on a two or better!'

'I say we nerf IR back to a natural bonus, that way they'll get hit on a 1 or better'

'Excellent idea, AC is overpowered!'

[riexau]

Well, nobody is going to make crafted armor if you can get a better ac from using a farmable drop.

I can see them changing it to an insight bonus - a boost over everything except the best shroud gear, and still gives incentive to craft armor with +1/+2 exceptional dodge bonus's.

dunno, I could see it happening.

[Angelus_dead]

Well, nobody is going to make crafted armor if you can get a better ac from using a farmable drop.
They might, if the armor does something good aside from AC.

Maybe the armor gives DR 10/-, or Fire Resist 50, or +10 strength, or all the above.

[Lateralus]

Rumor has it that Icy Rainment are due for a nerf?

I have heard several people saying that the +4 dodge on icy rainment might be getting changed to something else to bring it back down to reality.

Anyone know. Last I heard rumblings was it would become natural or deflection...so a split of dodge and one of the other 2

Anyone heard or seen anything official?

Just curious, but where would you "hear" something like this? Wouldnt we all know about it if it were anything from a reliable source?

[Angelus_dead]

Just curious, but where would you "hear" something like this? Wouldnt we all know about it if it were anything from a reliable source?
Well, suppose someone is personal friends with a dev or a beta tester. That insider might drop hints, or share a secret but ask him not to tell anyone.

Word can leak out in assorted ways.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Thats true.

Why grind/craft/grind when you can juss grind?

[Xaxx]

i think the end to the argument of this is dev/tester leaked is the op said a couple people, which kinda ends that speculation right there. Why would they nerf them anyway, as they're bind on aquire one of the only things in game outside raid loot thats boa. So what would the point of nerfing a boa item to below boa worth while specs?

[riexau]

They might, if the armor does something good aside from AC.

Maybe the armor gives DR 10/-, or Fire Resist 50, or +10 strength, or all the above.

let's look:

DR 10/-: almost replicated by a bard song, barbarian dr, etc etc. 4ac for 5 dr? Not I.
FR 50: Unlikely to make it in, but I'll give the benefit of a 30 resist and 5/10 exceptional for 45. Of course, you could do the same on a shroud item AND get 4ac on top with the raiment...
+10 str: A profane bonus? Maybe exceptional? Nah, realistically let's say +6 enhancement with +1/+2 exceptional for +9. Now +3 to a stat vs 4ac.. that'd be worth considering... except you can get that +3 on a weapon and get the 4ac.

Dunno. That dodge bonus on the raiment is really pretty good the more I think about it. Maybe it's time to roll a 100+ ac char..

[gfunk]

The raiments seem pretty balanced to me. My pure ranger has those, armor 7 bracers, chattering ring a +4 shroud insight item (plus all the other AC gear and a 37 dex) and usually I am at a high 50's ac (typically 58 if I remember correctly). The 60 to 70+ AC's only occur when I activiate a shield clicky, have some buffs, and a pali near, but that is fairly situational and of shortish duration (I think I have been as high as 74 not including favored enemies).

Even with all that I dont think that anyone would describe my ranger as some sort of invincible "overpowered" character. As a Dex based elf build, that amount of AC nicely balances my rangers limited HP (at least relative to the other melee types)

And besides, that gear represented alot of time put into equiping the character, so there should be some incentive/reward. Imagine that a bare bones elven ranger at lvl 16 would typically come into mod 6 and 7 content at sub-300 hp's and mid-40ish AC. Most people would call that fairly squishy, and a bit challenging to work into normal end game content. I think its great that the dev's have put in the gear to allow this sort of build to "grow" as they continue to quest after reaching lvl cap.

I hope they keep the raiments as is.. though I would feel compelled to craft some armor up if it was at least equal to the raiments but was better looking. Those of us with icy raiments pay a hefty price for having that extra AC...we have to look like we are questing in our PJ's.

Now the ability to multiclass would mean another 7 AC (wisdom) if I took a level of monk.. seems like quite a bit of advantage for just 1 level of another class... so much that it seems like it would be crazy not to take that level when the cap goes up, unless they add in some great advantage to being a pure class lvl 20.

[Angelus_dead]

The raiments seem pretty balanced to me. My pure ranger has those, armor 7 bracers, chattering ring a +4 shroud insight item (plus all the other AC gear and a 37 dex) and usually I am at a high 50's ac (typically 58 if I remember correctly).
And what makes you call that balanced?

Do you have any other melee characters? Maybe someone in armor?


Even with all that I dont think that anyone would describe my ranger as some sort of invincible "overpowered" character.
You don't have to be invincible to be overpowered.

[kinar]

pretty sure these rumors get started because of the wide definition of "nerf".

"nerfs" can come in other forms than simply changing the item in question.

many people would consider introducing crafted armor at all as a "nerf" to Icy (even if it was only equal to or slightly less than the Icy but simply easier to get).

Turbine can modify so many possible things that someone would then cry "nerf" that it really isn't a good idea to put any sort of weight in these rumors...

[Xithos]

Well, nobody is going to make crafted armor if you can get a better ac from using a farmable drop.

I can see them changing it to an insight bonus - a boost over everything except the best shroud gear, and still gives incentive to craft armor with +1/+2 exceptional dodge bonus's.

dunno, I could see it happening.

I am hoping that I am wrong, but I'm predicting the crafted armor is still going to be woefully underpowered compared to the uber rainment; just need to continue planning/building characters around it and farming GoP :)

[gfunk]

And what makes you call that balanced?

Do you have any other melee characters? Maybe someone in armor?

yep.. have a fighter who specializes in intimidating. I don't have all the gear yet, but with a shield I'll typically be at 60AC when finished (include combat expertise and haste only as a buff... 65 if someone is kind enough to cast bark, into the 70's with bard and recitation).. and with a lot more HP then the dex build previously mentioned. If I had been wiser and did a multiclass build I would be hitting 70 AC regularily as an armored tank. seems good to me

[Deathseeker]

How about changing to a type of bonus that won't stack with the monk wisdom AC bonus? The Icey Raiments are really only overpowered when combined with the monk bonus.

This whole conversation is somewhat pointless right now until we get the Dragontouched Armor details.

Personally, I've been trying to farm the Icey Raiments with no luck so far. Since you can't buy them or trade them, it's somewhat fair as they aren't that easy to get.

[Dexxaan]

Im gonna say the Pot Stirring effort didn´t go too well.

It is what it is...rumours are just that and the item by no means unbalances the game.

[Capstern]

yep.. have a fighter who specializes in intimidating. I don't have all the gear yet, but with a shield I'll typically be at 60AC when finished (include combat expertise and haste only as a buff... 65 if someone is kind enough to cast bark, into the 70's with bard and recitation).. and with a lot more HP then the dex build previously mentioned. If I had been wiser and did a multiclass build I would be hitting 70 AC regularily as an armored tank. seems good to me

Well I was curious as I am trying to farm up rainment and wondering if its worth the time. Without rainment and raid buffed in the dragon robe my monk TWF can hit 75 AC and I dont have chattering ring (yet) so dang near 80 - and if I remember the rainment difference using that over the rober and chaos guards I would break 80 without even blinking and with TWF being fixed my DPS will move from the bottom to respectable.

Basically unhittable and dealing good damage...I can see that sort of broken not that I would complain - but just trying to decide if its worth the effort.

Looked like an item them made to help monks out and made it the only thing in the game a dex build would want to wear and thats were I can see the slight brokeness. I really kind of think that once you have something that people will chase to exclusion of ANYTHING else - there might be a game balance there.

I guess they could introduce class restrictions to item - I mean they sort of do now but make it a MONK outfit...too complitcated for non-monks to fifureout how to put on..

hehehehehehe

where does this tie again..and where is that draft coming from

[Angelus_dead]

yep.. have a fighter who specializes in intimidating. I don't have all the gear yet, but with a shield I'll typically be at 60AC when finished (include combat expertise and haste only as a buff... 65 if someone is kind enough to cast bark, into the 70's with bard and recitation).. and with a lot more HP then the dex build previously mentioned.
Huh? You're using hitpoints to claim that TWF + Icy Rainment is balanced against a tower shield fighter?

Sorry, no. The rather minor hitpoint differential between a fighter and a ranger is not a significant factor when compared to the fact that the ranger has over twice the DPS and killing power.

[Angelus_dead]

How about changing to a type of bonus that won't stack with the monk wisdom AC bonus? The Icey Raiments are really only overpowered when combined with the monk bonus.
That would help a little, although it would completely undermine the whole reason Icy Rainments was added to the game: it was part of the project to add named loot specifically for monks.

[Angelus_dead]

Plus while not up there with +3 tomes W/P rapiers or titan belt its drop rate is not very high, 10 runs have not seen it yet for me or anyone else.
10 isn't very much at all, as that represents under an hour of trying.

[Vivanto]

It is being moved to the Subtarane skeleton chest from what I hear.

That would be even better lol, for once those rogues/rangers or whoever was just a dead weight on the GoP runs would be usefull in obtaining the item for himself.

[liamfrancais]

Huh? You're using hitpoints to claim that TWF + Icy Rainment is balanced against a tower shield fighter?

Sorry, no. The rather minor hitpoint differential between a fighter and a ranger is not a significant factor when compared to the fact that the ranger has over twice the DPS and killing power.

Plus while not up there with +3 tomes W/P rapiers or titan belt its drop rate is not very high, 10 runs have not seen it yet for me or anyone else.

[brshelton]

It is being moved to the Subtarane skeleton chest from what I hear.

[gfunk]

As a single factor probably not, though with close to 500 hp (when finished shroud item) the fighter can effectively tank an elite end boss whereas at 331hp it would be difficult to keep my ranger up. In that case I believe the HP does balance the AC quite nicely. Plus, the ranger would lose most of the dex AC bonus when using a tower sheild which greatly diminishes the usefulness of blocking.

Also, my fighter has gear slots and enhancements available to get healing amp up into the 160%ish range which would be very difficutl to fit in on the dex ranger (as the bracers slot is required for AC on the dex build, whereas the armored melee can use the hound bracers to increase healing amp).

In my view, the armored "tanks" are like a lineman (hard to take down due to their size, can take alot of damage etc etc), wherease the dex rangers are like running backs... hard to hit.. but easy to take down if you hit them hard.

[Angelus_dead]

Plus, the ranger would lose most of the dex AC bonus when using a tower sheild which greatly diminishes the usefulness of blocking.
No. Heavy shields are exactly as good as Tower shields for the purpose of blocking DR. That is due to a separate overpowered item, the Levik Shield.


Also, my fighter has gear slots and enhancements available to get healing amp up into the 160%ish range which would be very difficutl to fit in on the dex ranger (as the bracers slot is required for AC on the dex build, whereas the armored melee can use the hound bracers to increase healing amp).
He can only wear healing bracers if you accept another drop of -2 AC.


In my view, the armored "tanks" are like a lineman (hard to take down due to their size, can take alot of damage etc etc), wherease the dex rangers are like running backs... hard to hit.. but easy to take down if you hit them hard.
You're still judging balance by comparing hitpoints vs AC, which is a far less meaningful comparison than DPS vs AC.

TWF guys could get AC + hp if they really wanted. The reason they don't is because high hp is not as important as killing monsters.

[gfunk]

No. Heavy shields are exactly as good as Tower shields for the purpose of blocking DR. That is due to a separate overpowered item, the Levik Shield..

I guess the madstone shield is overpowered as well? maybe all raid gear is overpowered



He can only wear healing bracers if you accept another drop of -2 AC.

by contrast the dex build would lose 7 to 8 AC by giving up the armor bracers



You're still judging balance by comparing hitpoints vs AC, which is a far less meaningful comparison than DPS vs AC.

we'll just have to agree to disagree with that one. Either HP, AC, or DPS can keep a melee alive in a variety of situations.. depending on where you are questing any 1 of those may be more important than the others.

[Mindspat]

That would help a little, although it would completely undermine the whole reason Icy Rainments was added to the game: it was part of the project to add named loot specifically for monks.

Wait, are you saying this item should have be limited to Monks!?!? :eek:

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Wait, are you saying this item should have be limited to Monks!?!? :eek:

No, he's saying it would be pointless to add named loot specifically aimed at the new monk class when monks would get no to little benefit from it.

[vtecfiend99]

Wait, are you saying this item should have be limited to Monks!?!? :eek:

Honestly, while I have no problem with the item, all the anger and frustration caused by it might have been negated had it come with:

class required: 14monk ( you might argue that no umd would be good but I think being Able to UMD the class restriction would be ok, just make the UMD higher so that your character needs to REALLY invest in UMD to wear it)


I'm sure someone will call me an idiot for that idea and they may be right but at least it would have been used more for the purpose intended. flame on

[riexau]

Honestly, while I have no problem with the item, all the anger and frustration caused by it might have been negated had it come with:

class required: 14monk ( you might argue that no umd would be good but I think being Able to UMD the class restriction would be ok, just make the UMD higher so that your character needs to REALLY invest in UMD to wear it)


I'm sure someone will call me an idiot for that idea and they may be right but at least it would have been used more for the purpose intended. flame on

I support this change. UMD 30 or monk only :p

[Angelus_dead]

I guess the madstone shield is overpowered as well? maybe all raid gear is overpowered
Madstone shield does not let robe-characters keep their full dex AC bonus, and it also doesn't let characters nonproficient with Tower shields get the same AC as a +5 mith tower.



by contrast the dex build would lose 7 to 8 AC by giving up the armor bracers
No. You'd only lose 8 AC if you change your bracers but forget to change from Icy Rainment into an armor robe.

[Angelus_dead]

Why would they nerf it?
Is AC really that game breaking in DDO?
Fallacy: Anything which doesn't totally break the game is fine and needs no change.

[Aesop]

No. You'd only lose 8 AC if you change your bracers but forget to change from Icy Rainment into an armor robe.

or drank a potion of Mage armor ... then you'd only lose 2-4 AC

[Rog]

i put mine into a stone of change and made them into a +5 dodge bonus work well. nerf why would you want to nerf a +4 ac bonus this makes no since to me. wow i got +4 amor bonus great for a monk but by it self no big deal.

[maddmatt70]

hmm. Waiting for the new armors. The new armors might be more broken then the icy rainment. So that would make everyone happy?

[gfunk]

Madstone shield does not let robe-characters keep their full dex AC bonus, and it also doesn't let characters nonproficient with Tower shields get the same AC as a +5 mith tower.

No. You'd only lose 8 AC if you change your bracers but forget to change from Icy Rainment into an armor robe.

well leviks defender says that it caps AC... or perhaps im missing your point about what is diffent than the madstone

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Shields/LeviksDefender.jpg

.. so i would think that most of my rangers 13 dex bonus would be lost unless the item is not working as intended (I wouldn't loot such a thing on a dex build, so i have never had the chance to test it).

And sure, you could change from icy raiments into a white dragon robe (but you would then lose the icy raiment dodge bonus). And besides, the arguement was that the icy raiments were not overpowered.. clearly, if you say it is better to remove them than they are not that overpowered.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Fallacy: Anything which doesn't totally break the game is fine and needs no change.

Not sure why we're talkin' 'bout yer junk A_D, but I digress...

Fact: Anything that has very little impact on the game or its players or that is not 'broke' or bugged needs no change.


Listen, is giving AC builds something to farm really that terrible? Hell, they already have a hard time getting numbers that work plus DPS, or they have to farm The Titan for the ring...a thought which sickens me as I type...

AC is broke, it needs huge numbers to be effective. IR gives a +4 bonus to something that needs to reach the 60's to be somewhat effective.

Leave the **** robe be.

[Rog]

I support this change. UMD 30 or monk only :p

you are feeling what rogs live though everytime they make great rog gear it is sucked up by the other class's that love to knock the rog as weak until they see are gear then it we need that we need that tell them it rog gear and watch them b**ch u out becouse there toon and use a portion of the item so therefore it fighter gear every see a fighter needing +15 spot and search and brag about a 50 + backstab. get used to it monks are just like rogs they give us good gear then everybody that knocks us wants are gear becouse they can us it to.
mojomuscle

[krud]

My pure ranger has those, armor 7 bracers, chattering ring a +4 shroud insight item (plus all the other AC gear and a 37 dex) and usually I am at a high 50's ac (typically 58 if I remember correctly). The 60 to 70+ AC's only occur when I activiate a shield clicky, have some buffs, and a pali near, but that is fairly situational and of shortish duration (I think I have been as high as 74 not including favored enemies).


yep.. have a fighter who specializes in intimidating. I don't have all the gear yet, but with a shield I'll typically be at 60AC when finished (include combat expertise and haste only as a buff... 65 if someone is kind enough to cast bark, into the 70's with bard and recitation).. and with a lot more HP then the dex build previously mentioned. If I had been wiser and did a multiclass build I would be hitting 70 AC regularily as an armored tank. seems good to me

So, your pure ranger and tank have roughly the same AC. Add 1monk to the mix, like many do, and your ranger now has a better AC. Your ranger also deals almost twice the damage (not even counting favored enemy), and has evasion. If your ranger has anywhere near 350HP you can hardly call it a trade off vs your tank HP. The only thing your tank gets is blocking DR, but you can't smack anything while blocking, so you trade DR for zero dps. yep, seems good to me too. :rolleyes:

[Strykersz]

well leviks defender says that it caps AC... or perhaps im missing your point about what is diffent than the madstone

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Shields/LeviksDefender.jpg

.. so i would think that most of my rangers 13 dex bonus would be lost unless the item is not working as intended (I wouldn't loot such a thing on a dex build, so i have never had the chance to test it).

And sure, you could change from icy raiments into a white dragon robe (but you would then lose the icy raiment dodge bonus). And besides, the arguement was that the icy raiments were not overpowered.. clearly, if you say it is better to remove them than they are not that overpowered.

He obviously meant Lorrik's, not Levik's.

[Angelus_dead]

well leviks defender says that it caps AC... or perhaps im missing your point about what is diffent than the madstone
Lorick, Levikk, whichever, they're both blue, they both come from a doggy... and they both have 15 blocking DR, better than any other shield in DDO, including all towers.

[Angelus_dead]

Listen, is giving AC builds something to farm really that terrible? Hell, they already have a hard time getting numbers that work plus DPS, or they have to farm The Titan for the ring...a thought which sickens me as I type...
Erm, it's not something AC builds can farm for.

It's something only unarmored AC builds want to get. It gives nothing to shield & fp based AC builds, who are the ones that need a bit of help.


AC is broke, it needs huge numbers to be effective. IR gives a +4 bonus to something that needs to reach the 60's to be somewhat effective.
Sorry, wrong. Plenty of high-level monsters have just a 40 attack, which means 60s AC 95% negate them.

[Stealthbr]

Instead wanting Turbine to nerf every single thing you point at, why not just ask for a bump for armor wearers? Wouldn't it really be great if both armor wearers and robe/outfit wearers were effective? It's fascinating the amount of free time people have to just waste it complaining about everything a game has to offer. Besides, I believe a key point in an online game is diversity. If Turbine were to nerf the Icy Raiments and make heavy armor wearers the only tanks, wouldn't that limit the player? And whats the point of limiting a player? That just makes the game more dull overall.

[Aranticus]

As a single factor probably not, though with close to 500 hp (when finished shroud item) the fighter can effectively tank an elite end boss whereas at 331hp it would be difficult to keep my ranger up. In that case I believe the HP does balance the AC quite nicely. Plus, the ranger would lose most of the dex AC bonus when using a tower sheild which greatly diminishes the usefulness of blocking.

Also, my fighter has gear slots and enhancements available to get healing amp up into the 160%ish range which would be very difficutl to fit in on the dex ranger (as the bracers slot is required for AC on the dex build, whereas the armored melee can use the hound bracers to increase healing amp).

In my view, the armored "tanks" are like a lineman (hard to take down due to their size, can take alot of damage etc etc), wherease the dex rangers are like running backs... hard to hit.. but easy to take down if you hit them hard.

gfunk, you are clearly missing the point here. let me show you my new ranger

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1903389&postcount=225

78 ac, 81 with chattering ring.... twf. can i tank sally? 350 hp says no but 80AC says yes as hes not going to hit me. do i need to shield block to get DR? why bother when "nothing" can hit me

[gfunk]

missing the point? I think not. what we have here is a failure to communicate. The build you have posted is almost precisely my rangers build (2 points different on 1 str, otherwise the same). not sure where you are going to get the 350 hp from with a 12 starting con either.. my con is 20 on my ranger and with the mineral II item, minos helm, brute str belt i am only at 331 (perhaps you are approximating). Plus you are talking about a build which takes an extreme amountof equipment, achievable only after several months of playing. A traditional tank can be effective (as a tank) at a much earlier point in the builds life.

The difference between this ranger build and my fighter build in terms of dps is certainly not the "double" that several people have suggested. And 331 hp is cutting the margin for effective tanking in raids such as hound and vision. And on elite, even your temporary 80 AC isnt going to keep you invincible. I think that most clerics would prefer to heal a tank with a few more HP in those cases.

A true intimitank makes room for a bunch of healing amp, decently high ac, and a bunch of HP. Of those criteria, the ranger only has the AC. Of course you could make the build into a dwarf, but then you will be giving a bit more AC... always subtle differences.

[Angelus_dead]

The difference between this ranger build and my fighter build in terms of dps is certainly not the "double" that several people have suggested.
True. The ranger has Tempest, so his DPS is more than double.


A true intimitank makes room for a bunch of healing amp, decently high ac, and a bunch of HP. Of those criteria, the ranger only has the AC.
If we were talking about intimitanks, then a monk15/rog1 in Icy Rainments will beat anyone else in AC and Healing amp, and if he puts on a shield he'll match the armored guy's DR while still beating in AC.

But we're not comparing intimitanks, because they don't matter.

[Stealthbr]

gfunk, you are clearly missing the point here. let me show you my new ranger

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1903389&postcount=225

78 ac, 81 with chattering ring.... twf. can i tank sally? 350 hp says no but 80AC says yes as hes not going to hit me. do i need to shield block to get DR? why bother when "nothing" can hit me

Nice gear dude.

[gfunk]

But we're not comparing intimitanks, because they don't matter.

well, i like my intimitank.. but thats just me apparently, lol.

Anyways, it sounds more like more of the problem lies in the monk-splash builds and not the icy raiments. The raiments are a great fix to other problems in the game: the squishiness of elven and halfling rogues and rangers, and the lack of people running GOP. Monk splash builds are basically free AC at very little cost. At least the raiments, chattering ring, and insight items require a substantial investment in terms of game time (which seems to me to be the whole point).

And as to dps, the armor wearing melee can easily switch to twf when the situation is appropriate. A fully-equiped armor-wearing melee can still reach a self buffed AC over 60 ac while TWF (which is totally respectable imo), and turtle up with a shield to get over 70. heck, with a pali nearby and a bard song, the armored melee is going to be close to 70 while TWF'ing.

[Alexander_Illusioni]

The difference between this ranger build and my fighter build in terms of dps is certainly not the "double" that several people have suggested. And 331 hp is cutting the margin for effective tanking in raids such as hound and vision. And on elite, even your temporary 80 AC isnt going to keep you invincible. I think that most clerics would prefer to heal a tank with a few more HP in those cases.



I would much rather heal a high AC 76+ character tanking sulu with only 250 hp than a 600 hp 40 ac character. Once your above 76+ AC on Sulu you are only getting hit on a 20, even on elite when he is debuffed, and are very easy to keep healed. Being a twf ranger with favored enemy, it is easy to keep the aggro too, done it many times, and have been the cleric trying to heal both types of characters too. I would pick the ranger AC build everytime to heal, over a character with inferior AC but more hit points.

It is just a question of resources. In VoD I like to save mana till the end so all heals are done with scrolls as much as possible before that time. Getting hit less means less healing, having more hit points really does not help if you need to be healed more often. In shroud, it does not matter, as one can get mana back while the healing is going on (the mana pools do not dry up before Arty is dead). :):)

[Murderface]

Rumor has it that Icy Rainment are due for a nerf?

I have heard several people saying that the +4 dodge on icy rainment might be getting changed to something else to bring it back down to reality.

Anyone know. Last I heard rumblings was it would become natural or deflection...so a split of dodge and one of the other 2

Anyone heard or seen anything official?

i know you . let me tell you i have a rogue he wears that icy rainment the ac isnt even close to godlike
your barking up the wrong tree here my friend , ac is out of controll but i think if you look at the real culprit here and that comes by spending 6 attribute points in wisdom gettting a monk level and wearing a wisdom item on a high dex based finese melee.so try again tyvm

note to op: i have seen earlier anti rainment comments i just wanted to let you know thats not it my friend


ps: i think the nerf we will see first is every monk level ac boosting person in ddo will be forced to use kamas "keep bragin guys about ac it will only help further this assessment."

[Naso24]

Icy Raiments alone are not a problem. The real problem is AC spread. The raiments add to the spread.

The specific problem with IR is that it adds a bonus where there is no tradeoff. Most robe wearing builds get their armor from bracers.

It also adds a bonus that is not available to any class that wears armor. If it was on a necklace, it would at least be balanced across all builds.

Compare:

AC from +5 MFP and chaosgardes = 15 and dex bonus limited, can use shield
AC from AC8 bracers = 8, no limit to dex bonus or wisdom, shield eliminates wis bonus
AC from AC8 bracers and IR = 12, no limit to dex bonus or wisdom, shield eliminates wis bonus
AC from +5 MBP and chaosgardes = 12, and dex bonus somewhat limited, can use shield
AC from AC6 Robes and chaosgardes = 8

30 dex = 10 AC
24 wis = 7 AC

It takes IR, AC 7-8 bracers, chattering ring, high dex, high wisdom, tempest, centered, halfling, all together to set the high bar.

The armor wearers tend to do well early on, but are eventually surpassed as dex and wisdom attributes climb, and raid or other special loot is collected.

IR pushes the AC 4 higher than the alternatives for non-armor builds. Had they been AC 7 or 8 robes, they still would have been sought after, and would only represent a change of 1 or 2, which is reasonable for high end equipment.

The only new mod to armor wearers is in the form of the alchemical bonuses. For armor, it comes out a wash since this can be done to robes. Shields picked up +1. That isn't a whole lot.

A better fix, IMHO, would be to limit IR to 2 dodge, or make them AC 7 or 8 robes.

An even better fix would be to allow another AC ritual to be performed on leather or sturdier materials for 1-2 more AC, and allow another AC ritual to be performed on shields for another 1-2 AC.

Yet another fix would be to make dodge bonuses from items non-stacking. Take the highest from equipment, add to feats, and add to any enhancements. This would be welcome if moster attack was adjusted.

Yet yet another fix would be to give monsters progressive cycling attack chains.

Another fix would be taking monsters off the D20 system and making the roll D(20+CR/3). Ex, a CR 30 monster would roll 1D30. A CR 18 monster would roll 1D26. This would increase the spread they could hit. Even better would be D(20 + CR/2) with a downward adjustment to their current BAB.

Lots of ideas to change the spread.

[Aranticus]

missing the point? I think not. what we have here is a failure to communicate. The build you have posted is almost precisely my rangers build (2 points different on 1 str, otherwise the same). not sure where you are going to get the 350 hp from with a 12 starting con either.. my con is 20 on my ranger and with the mineral II item, minos helm, brute str belt i am only at 331 (perhaps you are approximating). Plus you are talking about a build which takes an extreme amountof equipment, achievable only after several months of playing. A traditional tank can be effective (as a tank) at a much earlier point in the builds life.

i broke the hp down in that post, i think anyone should be able to see and understand the calculations. what is an extreme amount of equipment? check out my trade thread and see what i got for trade. the only thing i need to farm on him is the rainments and +3 int tome. i have a full set of +2s waiting, my insight +4 is semi-crafted (just need finally assembly once i enter shroud and if lucky will complete it 1st run). granted i have no +8 bracers but a +7 is waiting and i have no problems laying my hands on a +8 if i wanted to. 1 AC, meh

a traditional tank be effective? at current, i'm running with 40+ ac at L12 w/o any of the gear i mentioned. most tanks at this point have the same ac. so you are incorrect in your assessment

The difference between this ranger build and my fighter build in terms of dps is certainly not the "double" that several people have suggested. And 331 hp is cutting the margin for effective tanking in raids such as hound and vision. And on elite, even your temporary 80 AC isnt going to keep you invincible. I think that most clerics would prefer to heal a tank with a few more HP in those cases.

this is pure ignorance, read this post to get a better idea of how obscene AC can reign supreme

http://forums.ddo.com/report.php?p=1902780

A true intimitank makes room for a bunch of healing amp, decently high ac, and a bunch of HP. Of those criteria, the ranger only has the AC. Of course you could make the build into a dwarf, but then you will be giving a bit more AC... always subtle differences.

you need healing amp and HP becoz you get hit. sally at elite settings caps out at about 72 ac meaning, if you get beyond that number you do not need hp or healing amp as you only get hit on a 20

[Capstern]

i know you . let me tell you i have a rogue he wears that icy rainment the ac isnt even close to godlike
your barking up the wrong tree here my friend , ac is out of controll but i think if you look at the real culprit here and that comes by spending 6 attribute points in wisdom gettting a monk level and wearing a wisdom item on a high dex based finese melee.so try again tyvm

note to op: i have seen earlier anti rainment comments i just wanted to let you know thats not it my friend


ps: i think the nerf we will see first is every monk level ac boosting person in ddo will be forced to use kamas "keep bragin guys about ac it will only help further this assessment."

And i would be ok with that - I would not mind seeing the spash get a mild kick in the junk like pally/rogues and mith full plate did.

*nerf batter batter swing batter*

and you have a rogue wearing icy rainment - I mean come on what self respecting rogue wears bright white clothes ;)
I wish they spent more time coming up with a good item like IR but made a version that fit other classes or something

so like some black ninja outift of the cat or something for rogues - loks right fits right etc
or +5 Indomitable Armor - some kind of FP that gives extra base AC to be equal
I would suggest some kind of thing for barbarian but we all know putting armor on a barb is like wiping after you soiled yourself


I found the icy rainment helped my rangers ac quite a bit - I am not above using the gear as long as it works - but well I still think its a monk thing and will gladly go back to alternative armor on the ranger of they make it monk only - or if they put UMD then thats cool - got lots of umd and thats a fair price to pay :)

As for monks getting high ac from high wisdom thats ok they are built that way - they are monks

[Stealthbr]

Taken from the v3.5 Player's Book which is on my lap (I might not translate word for word as it is written in Portugues):

"Monk's Bonus to AC: A monk is highly trained to dodge strikes and develops a sixth sense which allows him to dodge unexpected attacks. When he is without armor and carrying no more than a light load, a monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if there is any) to his Armor Class. Furthermore, he receives a +1 bonus to AC at level 5. This bonus goes up by 1 point after 5 consecutive levels in the monk class (+2 at 10, +3 at 15, +4 at 20). This bonus to AC is applied against touch counter attacks or when the monk is suprised. He loses this bonus when he becomes immobile or undefendable, when using any type of armor, when using any shield, or when carrying a medium or heavy load."

No where is it said that the Monk needs to dual wield kamas in order to retain his Wisdom bonus to his armor class.

[Capstern]

Taken from the v3.5 Player's Book which is on my lap (I might not translate word for word as it is written in Portugues):

"Monk's Bonus to AC: A monk is highly trained to dodge strikes and develops a sixth sense which allows him to dodge unexpected attacks. When he is without armor and carrying no more than a light load, a monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if there is any) to his Armor Class. Furthermore, he receives a +1 bonus to AC at level 5. This bonus goes up by 1 point after 5 consecutive levels in the monk class (+2 at 10, +3 at 15, +4 at 20). This bonus to AC is applied against touch counter attacks or when the monk is suprised. He loses this bonus when he becomes immobile or undefendable, when using any type of armor, when using any shield, or when carrying a medium or heavy load."

No where is it said that the Monk needs to dual wield kamas in order to retain his Wisdom bonus to his armor class.


I love when people quote the PHB to support things they like in the game but ignore all the things in the game that look nothing like PHB rules.

it matters not what the PHB says when it comes to striking game balance or finding some please aesthetics. When you find things like everyone on the planet splashing a level of something solely for pushing the limit on something - just needs a fixing.

If this game truly was meant to be played by the PHB they should start over :P

[Xithos]

i know you . let me tell you i have a rogue he wears that icy rainment the ac isnt even close to godlike
your barking up the wrong tree here my friend , ac is out of controll but i think if you look at the real culprit here and that comes by spending 6 attribute points in wisdom gettting a monk level and wearing a wisdom item on a high dex based finese melee.so try again tyvm

note to op: i have seen earlier anti rainment comments i just wanted to let you know thats not it my friend


ps: i think the nerf we will see first is every monk level ac boosting person in ddo will be forced to use kamas "keep bragin guys about ac it will only help further this assessment."

Even the right strength build can get a self-buffed sustainable (non-boost) AC up around 70 with the Icy Rainment; it really is that uber :)

[Stealthbr]

I love when people quote the PHB to support things they like in the game but ignore all the things in the game that look nothing like PHB rules.

it matters not what the PHB says when it comes to striking game balance or finding some please aesthetics. When you find things like everyone on the planet splashing a level of something solely for pushing the limit on something - just needs a fixing.

If this game truly was meant to be played by the PHB they should start over :P

My point was not to say that this current situation shouldn't be addressed but rather that limiting the monk's Wisdom bonus to AC to only work when he is dual wielding kamas is a completely stupid manner of solving this problem. Furthermore, I fail to see a point in all this discussion as the OP provides no credible source of information to support his statement. Therefore, I will no longer argue about this with you Capstern as it will get us no where and only provide more room for the creation of new rumors regarding the future of the situation dealing with Monk AC.

[Capstern]

My point was not to say that this current situation shouldn't be addressed but rather that limiting the monk's Wisdom bonus to AC to only work when he is dual wielding kamas is a completely stupid manner of solving this problem. Furthermore, I fail to see a point in all this discussion as the OP provides no credible source of information to support his statement. Therefore, I will no longer argue about this with you Capstern as it will get us no where and only provide more room for the creation of new rumors regarding the future of the situation dealing with Monk AC.

I never said dual wielding Kamas but there should be some sort of monkly requirement to get monkly bonuses within certain peramters

Monks should have high AC tocompensate for weak DPS - kind of turtle vs the hare but everyone with a minimal amount of monk splash getting that much bonus seems wrong

Like when Pallys used to be able to wear mith FP with 2 levels of rogue and get evasion

[Pyromaniac]

In my opinion....

Raid gear > craftable outside raid gear > quest drops should be what happens. However icy rainments is superior to raid armor and may or may not be superior to the new crafted mod 8 armor.

That's the problem - Icy Rainments should be made raid loot in one of the raids unless the new crafted mod 8 armor robe is superior in the AC type attributes.

No nerf, problem solved.

[Quikster]

In my opinion....

Raid gear > craftable outside raid gear > quest drops should be what happens. However icy rainments is superior to raid armor and may or may not be superior to the new crafted mod 8 armor.

That's the problem - Icy Rainments should be made raid loot in one of the raids unless the new crafted mod 8 armor robe is superior in the AC type attributes.

No nerf, problem solved.

Well if the drop location is in fact moved to the sub terr skelly chest, wouldnt it then be raid loot? Raid instance + bind on acquire = raid loot?

[query]

are the fearmongers sprerading it.


Until they announce a CHANGE posted OFFICIALLY as happening [not we're thinking about it] this is a non issue.

So let it go or show where the fact says this so.

[Capstern]

:) Very rational and good idea.

[Pyromaniac]

Well if the drop location is in fact moved to the sub terr skelly chest, wouldnt it then be raid loot? Raid instance + bind on acquire = raid loot?

Technically I would guess, but that skelly chest isn't exactly a difficult battle for such a good item.

[Murderface]

And i would be ok with that - I would not mind seeing the spash get a mild kick in the junk like pally/rogues and mith full plate did.

*nerf batter batter swing batter*

and you have a rogue wearing icy rainment - I mean come on what self respecting rogue wears bright white clothes ;)
I wish they spent more time coming up with a good item like IR but made a version that fit other classes or something

so like some black ninja outift of the cat or something for rogues - loks right fits right etc
or +5 Indomitable Armor - some kind of FP that gives extra base AC to be equal
I would suggest some kind of thing for barbarian but we all know putting armor on a barb is like wiping after you soiled yourself


I found the icy rainment helped my rangers ac quite a bit - I am not above using the gear as long as it works - but well I still think its a monk thing and will gladly go back to alternative armor on the ranger of they make it monk only - or if they put UMD then thats cool - got lots of umd and thats a fair price to pay :)

As for monks getting high ac from high wisdom thats ok they are built that way - they are monks
monks not the problem the halfling/elf finnese monk may have superior ac by a big difference but there high ac is mitigated by there low dps, there is no problem there they have to use kamas or monk weapons or lose most of there monk abilities

im talking about monk levl splash this is the only thing that very much out of balance. they dont get full bab bonus if they use rapiers w/e because there not centered so why are they still getting the ac bonus?

[Ninety]

monks not the problem the halfling/elf finnese monk may have superior ac by a big difference but there high ac is mitigated by there low dps, there is no problem there they have to use kamas or monk weapons or lose most of there monk abilities

im talking about monk levl splash this is the only thing that very much out of balance. they dont get full bab bonus if they use rapiers w/e because there not centered so why are they still getting the ac bonus?


it's a wisdom AC bonus, not a centered AC bonus, that's why they get it with only 1 monk splash or if they are using non-centered weapons.

[Vorn]

In my opinion....

Raid gear > craftable outside raid gear > quest drops should be what happens. However icy rainments is superior to raid armor and may or may not be superior to the new crafted mod 8 armor.

That's the problem - Icy Rainments should be made raid loot in one of the raids unless the new crafted mod 8 armor robe is superior in the AC type attributes.

No nerf, problem solved.

Hee, hee, put it in the Abbot!!!

[Capstern]

monks not the problem the halfling/elf finnese monk may have superior ac by a big difference but there high ac is mitigated by there low dps, there is no problem there they have to use kamas or monk weapons or lose most of there monk abilities

im talking about monk levl splash this is the only thing that very much out of balance. they dont get full bab bonus if they use rapiers w/e because there not centered so why are they still getting the ac bonus?


I think you and I aregeeing but you are cornfuse'ed
I agree the splash is sorta bogus OP right now IMO

[Quikster]

Hee, hee, put it in the Abbot!!!

Lol

[Dracolich]

I am so sick of GOP runs. Especially if I try to join one. I tried last week to join one the group was not closed to any classes. The leader however told me I could join as long as I did not need the Icy Rainments. Meaning if I looted them I would pass them over. This piece of loot has turned some people into real ********.

[Lehrman]

I am so sick of GOP runs. Especially if I try to join one. I tried last week to join one the group was not closed to any classes. The leader however told me I could join as long as I did not need the Icy Rainments. Meaning if I looted them I would pass them over. This piece of loot has turned some people into real ********.

You think the rainment does that? You shoulda been in a VoD run when one set of Tharne's goggles dropped and it got passed without a roll. One guy lost his mind and a couple others grumbled. Its not the item, its the greed for an item thats considered "the best" for its cooresponding slot.

[noinfo]

it's a wisdom AC bonus, not a centered AC bonus, that's why they get it with only 1 monk splash or if they are using non-centered weapons.

And they need to have put points into wisdom to benefit from it and give up a slot for a wisdom item. This does take away from their DPS and HP.

People keep saying they have double the DPS of a S/B, how when I am sure that the S/B has a much higher strength. It will be higher but doubt very much double. HP on a S/B will be higher too and not by a little bit as some keep saying. starting scores of 20 dex and 16 wis (even if a bit lower) dont leave much else for con and str. They can be better at killing with stat damage or vorpals but there are times when DPS is needed or AC/evasion is not a defense.

Let them have their time to shine, last mod or the time before it was Dwarven Barberians with massive hp because AC didn't matter next mod it who knows?

S/B fighter do need something but I wouldn't be looking at nerfing one item or class unless you are going to do all of them at the same time.