Resilient rogue builds?

[Timjc86]

With the upcoming changes to character creation and lowbie areas some friends and I are thinking of making another batch of characters, and it's been a while since I've made a rogue so I figured I'd revisit that.

I wanted to see if anyone had some tips or even full builds that would help me flesh out the details as to what I'm looking for. My favorite rogue to date was my 1 rogue / 15 ranger, who is in actuality (surprise!) a ranger with rogue skills. He's a blast and all, but I want something slightly sneakier.

***Disclaimer: I have tried high dex weapon finesse builds before and simply cannot stand them. I understand the benefits and so forth, I just absolutely can't play one myself. ***

I have rolled strength rogues in the past, but they all eventually lead to my ranger/rogue. I am looking for a mostly pure (at least 12 rogue levels) rogue who can still hold his own in terms of damage against sneak-attack-immune mobs and is also tough enough to take a hit or two.

Just from my own messing around I am leaning towards something like:
15 rogue / 1 fighter or 14 rogue / 2 fighter (at least one fighter level for all the proficiencies, maybe a 2nd for an extra feat and fighter strength I)

He will be a human, primarily because it's an extra feat for a feat starved class, but also because of the changes to racial toughness, and most importantly because the human dance is the only one I like.

I would love to play around with WotAssassin II, it just seems like a lot of fun. I imagine I'll be giving all three specialties a go though.

Thanks in advance.

[krud]

I've made a series of str based rogue/ftr mutts, and am fairly satisfied with my last reroll, an 8rog/6ftr/2pal. I'm sure the concept can be adapted to suit your requirements. If you want a highly survivable build, I would strongly recommend the pally splash. It will boost all your saves, and it can make up for any lack of a reflex save from multiclassing and skimping on dex. You can also go with a lower wisdom, put the points into charisma, take force of personality, and not worry so much about the weak will save rogues typically have. Plus it'll boost your umd and diplomacy scores. Just be sure to keep the spot skill up with enhancements.

After that, you can either splash fighter, monk, or ranger for some extra feats, or TWF. I also suggest trying out stunning blow. It's real fun on a str based rogue, since stunned mobs get auto sneak attacked and auto critted. Combined with WotAssassin and you got two good quick kill techniques.

[Timjc86]

I was trying to think of ways to get in sneak attack damage even if the mob was aggroed on me me aside from Diplomacy and short of a Radiance II weapon and Stunning Blow came to mind. I'm glad to hear somebody has tried it with decent results.

I was just playing around with the character generator and noticed that this guy is extremely starved for enhancements. I will really have to be selective about which ones I take.

As for feats I was considering the following: (not all together obviously... I wish)

Toughness (for racial toughness enhancements)
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
OTWF (I would honestly pick this over GTWF if it came down to the two, I just love the weapon versatility)
Skill Focus: UMD
Stunning Blow
IC: Pierce or slash (I have a thing for khopeshes... almost as bad as my thing for humans, but I have never played with WoP weapons before and it looks like fun)
EWP: Khopesh

I also really enjoying messing around with repeaters, but A) I don't have the feats and B) if I'm going with a high strength I might as well just pick up a returning whatever.

This is good, it will give me something to thing about until Mod8 goes live (something else besides "will my monk finally be able to get into PuG raids aside from Titan" :()

[krud]

I was trying to think of ways to get in sneak attack damage even if the mob was aggroed on me me aside from Diplomacy and short of a Radiance II weapon and Stunning Blow came to mind. I'm glad to hear somebody has tried it with decent results.


Just make sure you get a good weighted weapon - 5% lt mace, club or light hammer for your offhand, or the tenderizer from the reaver if you can't find anything else. If you take OTWF then you can always equip the tenderizer in your offhand without the penalty. People practically throw it away, so it's not hard at all to get. I have a 30 str and without a good weighted weapon I can only reliably stun mob casters, but with the weighted weapon I can get a whole lot more.

[Grenfell]

14rogue/2monk.

Dwarf or Human (or maybe Warforged? o.o)

375+ hp.

WotA II.

QStaff user with Power Attack.

Discuss amongst yourselves. :)

/gren

[Timjc86]

That's a solid option Gren, ty. I'm trying to stay away from anything that plays like a monk for the time being. I've got a pure one and I need a break. I considered a monk level or two in place of fighter levels as I'd still get extra feats, but I'm not going to have any spare attribute points so with a +2 tome and +6 item the most AC I'd be getting from wisdom would be 3 points.

It's definitely an idea though, and something else for me think about until Mod8, thanks ^_^

[Grenfell]

That's a solid option Gren, ty. I'm trying to stay away from anything that plays like a monk for the time being. I've got a pure one and I need a break. I considered a monk level or two in place of fighter levels as I'd still get extra feats, but I'm not going to have any spare attribute points so with a +2 tome and +6 item the most AC I'd be getting from wisdom would be 3 points.

It's definitely an idea though, and something else for me think about until Mod8, thanks ^_^

Oh, the monk levels are strictly for more Toughness feats. :) If you actually wanted combat feats, then Fighter levels are probably better. That way, you don't worry about the whole no-armor, no-shield thing.

FWIW, I think something like this could be a blast (this is from my R&D toybox):

str 16 +4 lvls +6 item = 26
dex 14 +3 rog dex +1 hum dex +6 item = 24
con 16 +6 = 22
int 12 +1 tome = 13 (CE possible)
wis 10 +6 +1 monk wis +1 human wis = 18
cha 8

Add +2 tomes to taste.

Human 14rog/2monk

Feats: 6 base, 2 monk feats.

Power Attack, Improved Crit: Bludgeon

Six Toughness feats = 18 x 6 = 108

30 base hp
100 rog14/mnk2
96 Con bonus
108 Toughness feats
18 Minos
20 Mod 8 toughness enhancements
30 GFL
------
402 HP. Yay.

Something like that.

/gren

[D'rin]

Gren you could also drop con by one and gain a few points put into wisdom instead. Then take human con 1 which also opens up the third tier of the toughness enhancements for humans.
Should be gaining 4 points to allocate elsewhere and add 10 more hitpoints top end from enhancements.

[Anthios888]

Here's how I'm doing it:

Fantazam
Level 16 Lawful Good Halfling Female
(1 Monk / 15 Rogue)
Hit Points: 307 unraged without minos legens
Spell Points: 0

BAB: 11/11/16/21
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 20
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 16)
Strength 12 14 [20]
Dexterity 16 26 [32]
Constitution 14 16 [22]
Intelligence 14 16 [potential 22]
Wisdom 14 16 [22]
Charisma 10 12 [18]

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 1

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 16)
Balance 8 27
Bluff 1 7
Concentration 3 3
Diplomacy 5 20
Disable Device 7 21
Haggle 1 1
Heal 3 3
Hide 6 37
Intimidate 1 1
Jump 6 17
Listen 3 5
Move Silently 6 37
Open Lock 8 20
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 3 3
Search 7 21
Spot 7 22
Swim 2 5
Tumble 8 26
Use Magic Device 5 20

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2 (Rogue)

Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse

Level 4 (Rogue)

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise

Level 7 (Rogue)

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike

Level 14 (Rogue)

Level 15 (Rogue) Skill focus: UMD, Dodge after a second shroud item is added

Level 16 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Halfling Guile II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber III
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Way of the Assassin I
Enhancement: Way of the Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide II
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II

I am interested in balance, survivability, DPS, and overall party contribution/solo capabilities. I stayed as pure as possible to max sneak attack damage at level 20, giving up greater two weapon fighting in the short term with the assumption that I'll take it at 18. Finished build will be 19 rogue/1 monk.

The level 15 feat may instead be BAB: Kukri if that is indeed implemented as it is in the compendium, which will move me from piercing to slashing.

The build will really come together once geared up, and is meant to take advantage of the very sweet rogue stuff currently available: icy raiments, tharne's set, radiance II rapier or kukri, mineral II shroud item. Long term AC goals include of course the chattering ring and a UMD item to replace my last feat for dodge.

AC 55 with no +3 tomes, 58 with chattering ring, and a potential self-buffed watermark of 68, before uncanny dodge. Hopefully I can play without combat expertise through most things. Will play with the assassin line and see if I prefer it or acrobat, but the build is flexible on that end. Max subtle backstabber, liberal use of diplomacy to help manage aggro, completely self-sufficient. A team character.

Absolutely no idea how useful way of the assassin is, but I liked the sound of the crits!

edit: toughness enhancements were not planned in, enhancements would be altered to fit that in.

edit: ****, you want a strength build. whoops.

[Grenfell]

Nice build, Rachna -- didn't know you were into build engineering. Now we have even more to chitchat about. :)

/gren

[Samadhi]

Not digging PA...

Yes, I know, it is using a 2-Hander but...

+12 BAB +8 Str -5 PA +4 GH +1 rage +5 weapon = 25... Sure, with SA it will be higher, but with a build capable of drawing that much aggro, I would want to be able to finish off the mob with a couple solid hits. I suppose it could still be used situationally - but I'm just wondering how situationally it would be used.

[Eudimio]

I was trying to think of ways to get in sneak attack damage even if the mob was aggroed on me me aside from Diplomacy and short of a Radiance II weapon and Stunning Blow came to mind. I'm glad to hear somebody has tried it with decent results.

I was just playing around with the character generator and noticed that this guy is extremely starved for enhancements. I will really have to be selective about which ones I take.

As for feats I was considering the following: (not all together obviously... I wish)

Toughness (for racial toughness enhancements)
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
OTWF (I would honestly pick this over GTWF if it came down to the two, I just love the weapon versatility)
Skill Focus: UMD
Stunning Blow
IC: Pierce or slash (I have a thing for khopeshes... almost as bad as my thing for humans, but I have never played with WoP weapons before and it looks like fun)
EWP: Khopesh

I also really enjoying messing around with repeaters, but A) I don't have the feats and B) if I'm going with a high strength I might as well just pick up a returning whatever.

This is good, it will give me something to thing about until Mod8 goes live (something else besides "will my monk finally be able to get into PuG raids aside from Titan" :()

Okay, my main is a strength-based human multi-classed rogue that I has been my main since Mod 1 days. He's given Fred many, many dragonshards, and I've taken most of those feats at one time or another. I like the feats, but consider these points:

OTWF is overkill (once geared). Sneak attack enhancements, Tharne's Goggles, Breastplate of Destruction, and a radience weapon (or two) make your to-hit a complete non-issue, reguardless of the weapons you're using. And that's not even including standard buffs.

Stunning blow will work well for you, even with little gear. I used Hammer of the Leaden Clouds paired with a seeker 10 light pick for quite a while. You get in a rhythm of killing one mob quick, one mob slow (during cooldown) without worrying about any sort of aggro control. Radience weapons (dual scimitars in my case) made that combo obsolete.

EWP: Khopesh is sort of self-defeating for your build. One of your main strengths is the ability to use any weapon in the game in either hand. Khopesh offers no advantage for the power 5 weapons, or stat damagers. And you'll do LESS dps than a scimitar, kukri, or rapier with a radience weapon. Once blindness hits, the fight is over.

One thing you may be overlooking is (burst) armor class. Acrobat 2 gives you at least 8 uses of improved uncanny dodge (4 minutes, +6 AC), and human versitility will give you 5 x 20 seconds of +3 to +5 stacking AC bonus (depending on investment). Shield wands give another +4 (5- and 10-minute versions are most used).

So dodge and/or combat expertise would compliment that well.

But the first feat replacement should be power attack. It doesn't add much more dps when you are sneak attacking. But when you aren't, you'll notice a big difference.

My last suggestion is to not go crazy maxxing your stats. 16 starting strength is enough. Charisma can actually be dumped if you use skill focus: UMD. Picking the right starting wisdom will be your biggest challenge. A poor will save is mostly unavoidable. And a couple extra points actually make a big difference for spotting traps. But, meh, I started mine with an "8".

Happy Hunting.

[Eudimio]

Not digging PA...

Yes, I know, it is using a 2-Hander but...

+12 BAB +8 Str -5 PA +4 GH +1 rage +5 weapon = 25... Sure, with SA it will be higher, but with a build capable of drawing that much aggro, I would want to be able to finish off the mob with a couple solid hits. I suppose it could still be used situationally - but I'm just wondering how situationally it would be used.

...And +1 for haste, +6 for madstone rage, +2 for flanking, +2 for blindness, +6 with a warchanter, +4 with destruction...

It gets sick pretty fast.