Will we ever increase the size of raid groups?

[FoxOne]

I was wondering about this,most people that have been here a long time know many many of their peers,i was wondering if someday there was any plans to bump the raid group size to 16 or even 20?I never read anything in that aspect but still was curious.

I can see there are goods and bads to it but wouldn't it be awesome to be able to get most of your friends in one group at the same time? :D

Just something to discuss while it's quiet...

[Dexxaan]

Under current Raid-Loot drop rate formulas....I truly hope not.

If there´s a review and undermanned Raids (say 50% full?) will have the same drop rate chance of named loot, etc... then this could be cool.

[Laith]

personally, i think 12 is about the perfect size for a raid. anything beyond that really just means that boss HP gets bigger, and party management/building more difficult.

i guess i could deal with 18, but huge raids are one of the biggest reasons i always leave those other MMOs when i reach the end.

[sirgog]

I wouldn't mind a one-off 24 player raid, just for something a little different, but there's a pretty big problem with them in terms of game balance - mass buff spells are incredibly overpowered in such groups.

In a 6-person group, Good Hope grants a boost to 6 players for 20 SP. In a 24-person group, it still costs 20 SP, but grants four times the bonus.

[FoxOne]

I wouldn't mind a one-off 24 player raid, just for something a little different, but there's a pretty big problem with them in terms of game balance - mass buff spells are incredibly overpowered in such groups.

In a 6-person group, Good Hope grants a boost to 6 players for 20 SP. In a 24-person group, it still costs 20 SP, but grants four times the bonus.

But if that were to happen (larger raid groups) i think they would change the number of characters affected.I.E. mass prot from energy would hit only 6 peeps at a time,kind of like haste used to be :D


And i don't mean for every raid to be that way but maybe one or 2 massive raids where you just need that many people to be able to complete.Break a 24 man party in like 4 groups of 6 with things to be done by each and then reach the main room all together for an epic fight...

[Tanka]

In a 6-person group, Good Hope grants a boost to 6 players for 20 SP. In a 24-person group, it still costs 20 SP, but grants four times the bonus.
Not really. Just because it effects four times as many people does not mean it grants for times the bonus. It means it's four times as effective. There's a very large difference.

Besides, most people would rather get Greater Heroism/Bard Songs than Good Hope.

[Lewcipher]

But if that were to happen (larger raid groups) i think they would change the number of characters affected.I.E. mass prot from energy would hit only 6 peeps at a time,kind of like haste used to be :D


I know what you're thinking of :D Tempest Spine!

I could be wrong here, but I think it affects the number of people equal to your level. I.e..lvl 10 wiz casts haste, and 10 people are affected.

[Aerendil]

It also depends greatly on player subscriptions.

It's one thing to have WoW's playerbase and require 30+ people to tackle a raid boss, but in most other games that could be quite the feat to have that many people on at the same time, and who can afford to spend several hours for this raid, and also who are competent and who work well together (although that last requirement is occasionally replaced by greed for loot and/or sufficient alcohol).

Smaller-size raids in games are becoming more popular as of late (i.e. EQ2, DDO, even FFXI has scaled down some of their larger boss encounters).

12 works fine, although perhaps one or 2 larger encounters wouldn't be a bad thing either.

[FoxOne]

It also depends greatly on player subscriptions.

It's one thing to have WoW's playerbase and require 30+ people to tackle a raid boss, but in most other games that could be quite the feat to have that many people on at the same time, and who can afford to spend several hours for this raid, and also who are competent and who work well together (although that last requirement is occasionally replaced by greed for loot and/or sufficient alcohol).

Smaller-size raids in games are becoming more popular as of late (i.e. EQ2, DDO, even FFXI has scaled down some of their larger boss encounters).

12 works fine, although perhaps one or 2 larger encounters wouldn't be a bad thing either.

I was hoping for new life (and old ones lol) to come back with the new mod,most that left did out of boredom and most will come back for the new content i think.let's face it,those still here are in for the long haul for the most part...so with a jumping server,it could be possible at peak times to get this going...at least i like to think so.I will definitely back up your competence statement...that is key imo :)

[Laith]

I wouldn't mind a one-off 24 player raid, just for something a little different, but there's a pretty big problem with them in terms of game balance - mass buff spells are incredibly overpowered in such groups.while they do become more useful, extremely large raids (anything larger than the current level cap) would actually have problems with mass buffs.

why? because most mass buffs follow the "one creature/level" limit. fortunately for us, it's almost never a problem anymore because our level exceeds our party size. Rage, for example, must be cast repeatedly to hit an entire raid because it hits one target per three levels. Even at level cap, it cannot effect a full raid.

With a 24 person party and a lvl20 cap, almost every mass buff would need to be cast by seperating into 2 groups beforehand (because you can't control who's effected otherwise).

[Zenako]

Would find the act of communication becoming very unwieldy with more than a dozen at once. Can you imagine trying to have effective voice communction with 24 players on at once. Either most people stay mute, or it is chaos. Would make it a bear to be a leader.

Think back to what was happening to the play experience during the Marketplace. When we had multiple RAID size groups active, in the same instance. Watching the General chat for news and the party chat for tactical choices where to go to bring forces to bear. While it was cool, it was clearly pushing the envelope. Perhaps the new hardware at Turbines end might make this less of an issue. We shall see.

What would be cool would be a simulataneous raid event where multiple groups head thru there own raid quests to all meet in a massive end fight like the marketplace was. End battle holds up to 4 raid groups at once. Each group enters the final battle from one side N,E,S, or W. You get a shadow overlay of the other 3 parties on your screen and the general chat connects you all. Coordinate raid groups to take out specific foes. Final encounter just takes the first 4 raid parties to arrive. The starts another instance for the next four groups. Would need some indicator to those in the holding zone if any other raid parties are on their way thru the entry quest with ETA on arrival. This could be a new level of server coordination and timing. You know, Friday night purge the demon realms night.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

There is barely anything for the 12 to do in most raids...why add more?

[Leyoni]

I don't have that many friends so it isn't an issue. :(

Seriously, where this might work is one-off things like the scalable quest off the market -- Devil's Assault.

Maybe build two or three completely scalable quests that take into account character level and number of characters and then adjust mob size, composition and abilities accordingly. Place them like Easter eggs without really clear indicators that they are there -- just an NPC crying out "Help me please!" or a door that now has a swirly thingy on it to show it leads somewhere. Set them to move in and out of existance on some semi-random schedule or triggered by some preceeding event. Or tie them in to some character class -- "Are you a paladin? Can you help me?" -- where they won't open if the right class is missing.

There is a lot that could be done. If it was for low XP and no favor with unique rewards that were trivial in the big scheme it could be fun.

Where I could not and would not want to see something like this is in situations where there would be large XP rewards or significant loot. The objective, according to the OP, is to be able to group with a mass of friends every once in a while. If the quests were fun to do and let everyone just sort of hang out together in one big love in then I could see tossing some of it into the game.

Might even include silly "How well do you know one another?" challenges. :D

[Sue_Dark]

I was wondering about this,most people that have been here a long time know many many of their peers,i was wondering if someday there was any plans to bump the raid group size to 16 or even 20?I never read anything in that aspect but still was curious.

I can see there are goods and bads to it but wouldn't it be awesome to be able to get most of your friends in one group at the same time? :D

Just something to discuss while it's quiet...

Please dear <deity>, no.
12-man is fine.
heck, 12-man is more than enough for most.

[Angelus_dead]

I can see there are goods and bads to it but wouldn't it be awesome to be able to get most of your friends in one group at the same time? :D
Oh really? There are "goods" to it? Like what?

The BAD parts are easy to list, but what might be good about it?

PS. If you look at the development history of other MMORPGs, the tendency is for the developers to start out with raids that are TOO BIG, and then scale back.

[FoxOne]

Oh really? There are "goods" to it? Like what?

The BAD parts are easy to list, but what might be good about it?

PS. If you look at the development history of other MMORPGs, the tendency is for the developers to start out with raids that are TOO BIG, and then scale back.

is to have all my game buddies in group at the same time,that's the big thing i would like...Also,it would be an awesome challenge to coordinate all of this and it might increase the chances at loot who knows :D

[Angelus_dead]

is to have all my game buddies in group at the same time,that's the big thing i would like...
Get Teamspeak or Ventrilo.

[Kalari]

Hmm the only good I can see out of this idea is for large guilds to coordinate raids without having to pick and choose who gets to go where. But you would really have to have that many if not more. My guild only has so many people raid ready so it wouldnt affect us, plus working with other guilds builds stronger alliances either way.

And I dont like the thought of a bigger raid group for non events either way, now if this was for live events like the devil invasion I would get on board simply because on Sarlona several of us were using chat to communicate and pin point areas like a big raid anyway.

But as someone who has both been in 12 person raids who have been chaotic with people talking over each other or heading in the wrong area while the poor leader trying to keep it together. Id definately not want to be one in 18+ trying to figure out whats what. Im not saying that there are not leaders who can pull it off, heck I know leaders who can pull it off drunk (hehe) but it would be a nightmare for those who cant and a headache in a half.

Sorry OP you have a great idea for a large group of friends I'll give you that but unless it was for a live event or maybe even a new high level explorer area where your group can go charge areas and report to one and other I cant get on board.

[Zenako]

In addition, I put my foot down as a frequent cleric on raids...

Until we get more than F1-F12 on my keyboard, anyone who ended up in higher number slots would be just out of luck I guess.....Hard enough to manage healing on a horde of 12, let alone more.....

Being able to coordinate multiple raid groups of 12 inside a single quest instance (aka the marketplace events but on a more controlled basis) would be a neat thing to consider.

Other raid groups would show up on you party list in a collapsed menu with a + or - toggle to expand if you want to see who that have or how they are doing, but able to generally hide the info if you don't want your screen crowded.

[Aerendil]

^^ But that's where tactics and strategy come into play.
eg. place one designated healer per party who's responsible for each party's safekeeping, or even make a *main* party consisting of 3 tanks and 3 healers (the other parties can consist of DDs who will hopefully not need a lot of heals and who can manage their own aggro).

Mass Cure spells would also reign supreme here as well.

There's plenty of ways that a large scale raid could work effectively.

The real snag would be lag, and finding players who can work as a team (and not allow the battle to dissolve into chaos).

[sirgog]

In addition, I put my foot down as a frequent cleric on raids...

Until we get more than F1-F12 on my keyboard, anyone who ended up in higher number slots would be just out of luck I guess.....Hard enough to manage healing on a horde of 12, let alone more.....

Being able to coordinate multiple raid groups of 12 inside a single quest instance (aka the marketplace events but on a more controlled basis) would be a neat thing to consider.

Other raid groups would show up on you party list in a collapsed menu with a + or - toggle to expand if you want to see who that have or how they are doing, but able to generally hide the info if you don't want your screen crowded.

I'd assume Shift + F12 would hit party member #24.

I can just imagine the pranks people would play tho -

Newb: How do i select people after #12?
Helpful person: Shift & F4 for #16, etc
Ganker: 'no, it's not shift, it's Alt'
Your party member, Newb, has disconnected.

[Dexxaan]

Roflmao :d

[Zenako]

I'd assume Shift + F12 would hit party member #24.

I can just imagine the pranks people would play tho -

Newb: How do i select people after #12?
Helpful person: Shift & F4 for #16, etc
Ganker: 'no, it's not shift, it's Alt'
Your party member, Newb, has disconnected.

Given the number of times I end up with all caps (from hitting Caps Lock) instead of Tab, anything extra like that will cause someone some issues, not the least of which is trying to figure out things in base 6. lets see the 4th character down on the 3rd of my 4 rows of 6 toons in the 24 man raid needs a heal quickly. Well hoping he is close enough and not blocked lets see that is character #16 it looks like, so that would be shift F4... seriously a wicked pain to process in the fractions of a second you often have for ciritical healing when the bleep hits...

[Angelus_dead]

Given the number of times I end up with all caps (from hitting Caps Lock) instead of Tab, anything extra like that will cause someone some issues, not the least of which is trying to figure out things in base 6.
If you seriously wanted to make 13+ raid members workable (which is a bad idea for other reasons besides this one), you'd really need to have a party config popup window where you can toggle and drag which members you want on your F1-F6 and F7-F12 buttons. That way clerics would pre-select which characters they expected to heal, and which they planned to ignore. You'd further want a keybind to shift the party list over by +6 or +12, so you can still rapidly select someone outside your main healing list.

In addition, raids of 13+ people would really need separate global and local chat channels with two different Push To Talk buttons. Each player would check off about 25-50% of the other members to be in their "squad channel", where most voice chat would be done , while the global chat channel would be mainly only used by the raid leader. The only reason for anyone else to use the global chat would be to alert the leader to something new he should notice, like "Crushin was feared into whelps"