Disappointed with the new Fighter Love

[Cold_Stele]

Having taken a look at the new Fighter love for mod 8 I have to say I’m more than a little disappointed with what we’ve been given.

Fighter’s Weapon Specialization adds +1 damage at lvl 8 to a specific weapon type (eg. Dwarven Axe) and a further +1 at level 16 for a total cost of 3 AP.

+2 damage total.

The new Fighter tactical feats which we were looking forward to would appear (from the Compendium) to be just one - Superior Weapon Focus, again in a specific weapon type.

+1 to hit, should you wish to burn a feat on it.

That extra +2 damage is way too little to balance the melee classes and, to be honest, a slap in the face for us poor Ftrs who were promised so much.

Looking at these numbers (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1482696&postcount=588), a maxed Dwarven Barb with a Mineral II GreatAxe does 3d6+50 per swing and crits on 17-20. A maxed Dwarven Ftr (with the new enhancement) does 3d6+45 and crits on 19-20.

I am NOT saying that a Ftr’s DPS has to equal a Barb’s or a Rgr’s, but even with the new enhancements a Ftr hits for 5 points less per swing, has HALF the number of crits (with axes) and is at –3 to tactical feats compared to a Barb.

I appreciate that Fighter PrE’s are forthcoming in mod 9 but they would have to be grossly overpowered to even come close to Rangers, Barbs or even Pallies now it would seem.

[llevenbaxx]

Im thinking this is only part 1 of a 2 part plan. Id wait and see(lol where have I heard that before...:)) what mod 9 has to offer in addition before I get all dissappointed... but thats me.

[frugal_gourmet]

I was also hoping they would tweak things a bit to help emphasize unloved weapons. For instance, what fighter is going to follow the example and pick bastard sword?

[Memnir]

My fighter has done nothing but collect dust for the past six months, and it looks like he's only going to keep doing so. Or maybe be rerolled to something more relevant.

[Blazer]

Id wait and see...{snip}...what mod 9 has to offer in addition before I get all dissappointed... but thats me.

Sure, but since Mod 8 still isn't here yet, and it's taken this long to get to Mod 8, are you willing to wait another X months until Mod 9?

[llevenbaxx]

Sure, but since Mod 8 still isn't here yet, and it's taken this long to get to Mod 8, are you willing to wait another X months until Mod 9?

**put hands over ears repeating, "think positive, think positive...."**:)

No... do we have a choice?... No:(

[Laith]

Sure, but since Mod 8 still isn't here yet, and it's taken this long to get to Mod 8, are you willing to wait another X months until Mod 9?whether you're willing to wait or not, you're not really in a position to make more things appear in mod8.

these mod8 fighter enhancements were completely unexpected. we were told long ago that the specialties and fighter/pally love are set for mod9. mod9 is supposedly due for jan/feb. be happy we got something in mod8.

or not. your call.

edit: with the delays, i'd consider january very unlikely.

[Cold_Stele]

Yes there's PrE's coming in Jan, but can you not understand how mind staggeringly overpowered they'd have to be to let Ftrs even begin to approach Barb/Rgr DPS?

I'm going to repeat myself here - before the new FWS enhancement they were at 7 points less per swing, half the number of crits (with axes) and at –3 with tactical feats compared to a Barb.

7 points less per swing!!! That's the equivalent (damage-wise) of a Barb starting with an 18 Str and the Ftr starting with a 4!!!

Even if the devs had gone crazy with the new enhancement (like they did with...nvm :rolleyes:) and added +7 damage then Ftrs would STILL do less DPS.

I honestly think 4 tiers of the new enhancement would have been about right - in no way overpowered and still way less DPS than Barbs and Rgrs.

2 points is just a lost opportunity to restore balance...

[gfunk]

I'm actually pretty pleased with the changes, and how it will affect my (pure) fighter. The toughness changes will help as I have a human fighter (will now achieve 500hp), and the +2 to damage will come in handy as well (nice add on to the weapon specialization / greater... for a +6 to damage in total). Still not as great of dps as the other classes, but my fighter is sort of a multi purpose anyway (intim / blocking / twf). This type of versatility is something that is difficult to fit into the other classes (due to the number of feats).

[llevenbaxx]

I see "DPS" and damage of this other guy, all over that last post Cold. I thought a fighters place was to master(or maybe just be good at) most if not all the different areas of combat. Aint that what all them feats is fer?;)

Working on a GTWF able intimitank with a side of tactics ftr atm. Tried to play a straight DPS fighter at level cap 12 and it just seemed dreadfully boring. The fighter class gives you the ability to do so much more and all you can think about is DPS.... forshame...:)

[EKKM]

Yes there's PrE's coming in Jan, but can you not understand how mind staggeringly overpowered they'd have to be to let Ftrs even begin to approach Barb/Rgr DPS?

I'm going to repeat myself here - before the new FWS enhancement they were at 7 points less per swing, half the number of crits (with axes) and at –3 with tactical feats compared to a Barb.

7 points less per swing!!! That's the equivalent (damage-wise) of a Barb starting with an 18 Str and the Ftr starting with a 4!!!

Even if the devs had gone crazy with the new enhancement (like they did with...nvm :rolleyes:) and added +7 damage then Ftrs would STILL do less DPS.

I honestly think 4 tiers of the new enhancement would have been about right - in no way overpowered and still way less DPS than Barbs and Rgrs.

2 points is just a lost opportunity to restore balance...

The four tiers of WS enhancment you refer to is what I had hoped for as well. On the plus side, at the cost of 1 AP it is really cheap.

I really hope that mod 9 gives us:

1- Good PrC enhanements like tempest, assassin etc (also, *** isnt tempest available for fighters anyway, thats how it is in PnP)

2- Reduce the AP cost of the armour mastery enhancments

3- More tactical feats as was promised

4- Improve the above WS enhancement.

[Tanka]

I see "DPS" and damage of this other guy, all over that last post Cold. I thought a fighters place was to master(or maybe just be good at) most if not all the different areas of combat. Aint that what all them feats is fer?;)

Working on a GTWF able intimitank with a side of tactics ftr atm. Tried to play a straight DPS fighter at level cap 12 and it just seemed dreadfully boring. The fighter class gives you the ability to do so much more and all you can think about is DPS.... forshame...:)
The thing is, a WF Barb with a Docent of Defiance can out-DPS us, out damage mitigate us, out Tactics us and maintain Intimidate aggro with minimal effort.

So what, exactly, are Fighters to do?

I won't even get into the so-called "Iron Monk" (which only takes one level of Monk, btw) that can do more damage, have far higher AC, Evasion, saves, and even play Intimitank with the right gear.

What else is there for Fighters, besides playing a mule?

[Cold_Stele]

The fighter class gives you the ability to do so much more and all you can think about is DPS.... forshame...:)

Well there are so many answers to that I don't know where to start :)

1. DPS - is there anything more important in this game? I know you must have been in Shroud - do you not agree it's all about pure DPS? Have you honestly never seen Shroud LFM's looking exclusively for Barbs and Rgrs only?

2. Ftr's have feats and versatility to do what else? Tactical Feats? Barbs do it better - you need to spend 6 AP per feat to get DC equal to a Barb.

3. So what else can a Ftr do? Best AC? Nope - even if you make extensive sacrifices, a Ranger/Monk will have better AC.

Sure, the one thing a Ftr can do better than anyone is spam Intimidate vs the Orthons in VOD. If I couldn't do that, I wouldn't be invited in there either ;)

But to reiterate, I mention DPS because it's all that matters in 95% or more of the game's content. If you don't have the DPS you're a liability to the group.

And that's why you don't see Ftrs wanted in Shroud LFM's...

[llevenbaxx]

You seem to be of the opinion, if you arent the best, you dont count.

What does matter is that you can get good damage via feats/build, be an intimitank and have enough AC/hps for it. What does it matter that one class is better than me at tactics feats if almost every time the mob is still going to be stunned/tripped? It dont... Fighters are a combination of many good things, not one great thing.

Some classes just arent about being the best.

[Cold_Stele]

You seem to be of the opinion, if you arent the best, you dont count.

Please reread my post.

Everything I have stated is fact. Where possible I have provided numerical evidence.

Nothing in here is my opinion.

[smatt]

You seem to be of the opinion, if you arent the best, you dont count.

What does matter is that you can get good damage via feats/build, be an intimitank and have enough AC/hps for it. What does it matter that one class is better than me at tactics feats if almost every time the mob is still going to be stunned/tripped? It dont... Fighters are a combination of many good things, not one great thing.

Some classes just arent about being the best.


Hmm, well I think the point is.... That a 2 weapons fighting build can out AC or match the AC of a fully armored/shield holding tank, can out DPS (not per-swing, but has double the attacks) of a S/B. Sure;y a S/B build isn't wholly ineffective with the right build and the right play-style. Oh wait maybe a armored, shield holding tank has 1 advantage when shield blockign they get a little bit of DR, whoopitdy dippitdy do.But it's ridiculous that they can be out AC'd, out DPS'd, in such a way so easily. The entire progression of how this happened is amazing. I beat the system by being a general UMD build, that can survive and has enough of a mix of stat/DPS to hold up. Not great at anything but keeping myself and the whole party alive by rezzing/healing the dead clerics and casters. But it's a stretch to build and equip a toon in such a way.

[llevenbaxx]

Please reread my post.

.

Think you might want to reread mine;) Never disputed what you wrote, only an alternate line of thought.

[BlackSteel]

i'm not getting a 7 point difference when I add them up for identical races, dwarf barb vs dwarf fighter; the barb only does 3 more damage a swing with the addition of these two new enhancements, and this is only for THF, the difference for twf is less

whats really different is when you take a human fighter thf, thats 2 less than the dwarf fighter, and compare it to a wf barb which is 4 more than the dwarf barb.



was never stated that mod 8 was supposed to have lots of fighter love, only enhancements for weapon spec. If you take a tempest multiclass, the 10 fighter / 6 ranger is actually better off than the 10 barb / 6 ranger. Whether this stays true with a lvl cap raise depends completely upon how good the fighter prc's are.

[smatt]

Characters who use TWF should NEVER have higher AC than those using a shield.

Repeat

Characters who fight with Two Weapons should NEVER have higher AC than those using a shield.

Repeat

Character who fight with a Two Handed weapon should NEVER have higher AC than those using a shield.


Whoever thought it was a good idea to give out AC bonuses for a two wepon style OTHER than the 1 point feat is a artard.


Well not neccesarily all the time..... There is somethign to be said for Dex based builds and the ability to move freely. BUT the fact they can attain such high AC AND out DPS is the key. So what' sthe downside of such a build???? Every race/class has it's strong poitn and weak points, at least most do or should.

Easy and logical fix..... DR, static progressive DR for tangible armor wearers, not just shield blocking DR.

[Randolf_Drake]

Characters who use TWF should NEVER have higher AC than those using a shield.

Repeat

Characters who fight with Two Weapons should NEVER have higher AC than those using a shield.

Repeat

Character who fight with a Two Handed weapon should NEVER have higher AC than those using a shield.


Whoever thought it was a good idea to give out AC bonuses for a two wepon style OTHER than the 1 point feat is a artard.

[BlackSteel]

must've hit something twice, but its a 5 difference not 7

[Murderface]

Having taken a look at the new Fighter love for mod 8 I have to say I’m more than a little disappointed with what we’ve been given.

Fighter’s Weapon Specialization adds +1 damage at lvl 8 to a specific weapon type (eg. Dwarven Axe) and a further +1 at level 16 for a total cost of 3 AP.

+2 damage total.

The new Fighter tactical feats which we were looking forward to would appear (from the Compendium) to be just one - Superior Weapon Focus, again in a specific weapon type.

+1 to hit, should you wish to burn a feat on it.

That extra +2 damage is way too little to balance the melee classes and, to be honest, a slap in the face for us poor Ftrs who were promised so much.

Looking at these numbers (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1482696&postcount=588), a maxed Dwarven Barb with a Mineral II GreatAxe does 3d6+50 per swing and crits on 17-20. A maxed Dwarven Ftr (with the new enhancement) does 3d6+45 and crits on 19-20.

I am NOT saying that a Ftr’s DPS has to equal a Barb’s or a Rgr’s, but even with the new enhancements a Ftr hits for 5 points less per swing, has HALF the number of crits (with axes) and is at –3 to tactical feats compared to a Barb.

I appreciate that Fighter PrE’s are forthcoming in mod 9 but they would have to be grossly overpowered to even come close to Rangers, Barbs or even Pallies now it would seem.
+2 damage sounds like its right up my alley, hopefully its not a 2 point buy in
superior focus feat seems dumb
just give us ce 2 and fighters dodge back ill be ok with that.. you bring ce 2 back i might use that superior wpn focus feat haha

just thought of something tho superior foucs must mean theres a superior weapon spec on the way and if you can get 6 damage by way of feats thats nothing to sneeze at add 2 from enhancments( 4 if your a dwarf)

[llevenbaxx]

Hmm, well I think the point is.... That a 2 weapons fighting build can out AC or match the AC of a fully armored/shield holding tank, can out DPS (not per-swing, but has double the attacks) of a S/B. Sure;y a S/B build isn't wholly ineffective with the right build and the right play-style. Oh wait maybe a armored, shield holding tank has 1 advantage when shield blockign they get a little bit of DR, whoopitdy dippitdy do.But it's ridiculous that they can be out AC'd, out DPS'd, in such a way so easily. The entire progression of how this happened is amazing. I beat the system by being a general UMD build, that can survive and has enough of a mix of stat/DPS to hold up. Not great at anything but keeping myself and the whole party alive by rezzing/healing the dead clerics and casters. But it's a stretch to build and equip a toon in such a way.

Yeah I realize this isnt quite right atm but the games not finished yet either. Plus there is a MC system for a reason, you didnt really "beat" the system youre simply working within it. I too would like to see some kind of variant DR system come in for heavy armor/shield wearing characters.

I guess pretty much just doing the new raids on elite for the most part I get to see how a well formed team can use all the parts. Getting a great intimatank who can affectively turtle up for the new ones always seems to be the most important role. These roles are almost always taken be ftrs, pallys or ftr/pallys. I know its just two specific example but in pretty much any content outside of raids, you bring just about any group through them so that hardly matters.

[Cold_Stele]

i'm not getting a 7 point difference when I add them up for identical races, dwarf barb vs dwarf fighter

My numbers are here http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1482696&postcount=588

I'm getting the Barb getting 7 more points per swing (5 including FWS) and doing double the amount of criticals. Please feel free to point out where you think they're incorrect.

TWF would be less damage per swing but more swings per minute and more opportunities to crit with Crit Rage II - I don't see the Barb doing less DPS in that scenario either.


was never stated that mod 8 was supposed to have lots of fighter love, only enhancements for weapon spec.

I agree, but to reiterate - this was a missed opportunity to address balance. As a result the new PrE's will have to be ridiculously overpowered in order to close the gap between the melees.

[Turial]

Overall the new fighter enhancements make a two weapon fighter relatively on par with a similar ranger (using rams might) vs non-favored mobs.

+1 to-hit for weapon focus feat
+2 damage for weapon specialization feat
+1 damage for weapon specialization level 8 enhancement
+1 damage for weapon specialization level 16 enhancement
+1 to-hit for greater weapon focus feat
+2 damage for greater weapon specialization feat
+1 to-hit for superior weapon focus feat

Total: +3 to-hit and +6 damage Fighter Permanent.
Total: +1 to-hit and +4 damage Ranger Dispellable buff.

[Turial]

....
please someone prove me wrong tell me one mod where ranger didnt get a big dose of love

Mods 1-4 back when fighters were kings.

[Murderface]

whether you're willing to wait or not, you're not really in a position to make more things appear in mod8.

these mod8 fighter enhancements were completely unexpected. we were told long ago that the specialties and fighter/pally love are set for mod9. mod9 is supposedly due for jan/feb. be happy we got something in mod8.

or not. your call.

edit: with the delays, i'd consider january very unlikely.
but there putting massivly underpowered prc in purple dragon knight good stuff unless theres a bard around so certaily there competence bonus would have to stack with bard or be totaly useless and a waste of points, defender heres one thats totaly defensive in fact one of the stipulations is that you have to stand perfectly still for defenders abilities(standing still in ddo usualy doesnt work), then we have kensai hmmm now if it were some kind weapons master kensai with widened criticals and extra crit multiplier with one type of weapon now that would work
obviously you dont make it stack with barb stuff and make it impossible to get the extre crit multiplier make it a lvl 14 restriction. you should just look forward to the steady increase in ranger love because turbines trackrecord so far is making ranger better every single mod

please someone prove me wrong tell me one mod where ranger didnt get a big dose of love

[Cold_Stele]

Overall the new fighter enhancements make a two weapon fighter relatively on par with a similar ranger (using rams might) vs non-favored mobs.

Um, you're kind of forgetting the permanent 10% haste boost or the fact that not much stuff end game isn't a favored enemy.

My Rgr has Evil Outsiders, Constructs, Elementals and Aberrations, which is everything but what Gnolls, Trogs and the odd Troll end game right? Everything else he just uses stat damage anyway...

BUT SERIOUSLY - why are we debating this? Is there ONE PERSON who doesn't think Ftrs are underpowered compared to Barbs and Rgrs???

[Laith]

please someone prove me wrong tell me one mod where ranger didnt get a big dose of loveany in mod8?

well, nm, i guess the fact that Ghola Fan doesn't confuse rangers with those dirty monks counts as love.

[Cold_Stele]

any in mod8?

Well they didn't nerf Tempest, despite the huge waves of panic that they had.

That's a whole lotta love right there ;)

[Murderface]

Overall the new fighter enhancements make a two weapon fighter relatively on par with a similar ranger (using rams might) vs non-favored mobs.

+1 to-hit for weapon focus feat
+2 damage for weapon specialization feat
+1 damage for weapon specialization level 8 enhancement
+1 damage for weapon specialization level 16 enhancement
+1 to-hit for greater weapon focus feat
+2 damage for greater weapon specialization feat
+1 to-hit for superior weapon focus feat

Total: +3 to-hit and +6 damage Fighter Permanent.
Total: +1 to-hit and +4 damage Ranger Dispellable buff.
the way i see it sounds like superior focus might lead to superior specialization, so total from feats would be +6, then add another +2 from enhancements +4 for axe if your a dwarf. Thats a total of +8-+10 to each hand dual weilding that would be pretty darn close to fe damage for rangers...barbs offhand damage stinks getting barb pa maxed and using a offhand weapon isnt that great all your str is .5 so in the end a dwarf dual wielder would get better off hand damage per regular hit. so im thinking superior focus is pretty good sign there will be superior specialization and if theres that thers probably a third wpn spec enhancment coming

[Murderface]

any in mod8?

well, nm, i guess the fact that Ghola Fan doesn't confuse rangers with those dirty monks counts as love.
mod 8 may have been less then stellar for str rangers but it was a god blessing to finesse rangers ooo monk splash ooooo icy rainment,, lol thats all i have to say about that......

if i had a nickels for every ranger reroll i saw on my server well lets just say

i would have alot of dang nickels

[Laith]

mod 8 may have been less then stellar for str rangers but it was a god blessing to finesse rangers ooo monk splash ooooo icy rainment,, lol thats all i have to say about that......mod8 is the one on risia...

besides, that was just as big of a boost to any other classes dex builds. can't just claim that one as a win for rangers.

[Angelus_dead]

Overall the new fighter enhancements make a two weapon fighter relatively on par with a similar ranger (using rams might) vs non-favored mobs.
Except that the ranger is swinging 10% faster, which even if you're going for raw DPS is similar to being +4 damage above the fighter.

[Cold_Stele]

+4 for axe if your a dwarf thats a total of +8-+10 to each hand dual weilding that would be pretty darn close to fe damage for rangers

If you're going to be accurate you can't use different races when comparing - you have to assume both are Dwarves with Dorf Axe Damage otherwise those numbers are meaningless. Also it's not just the damage per swing that makes Rgrs so great it's the permanent 10% haste boost.

I haven't crunched TWF numbers yet but guess I could. Adding SWS in the THF scenario would still equal 3 points less per swing and HALF the number of crits compared to Barbs though.

Sure it's closing the gap but it's still a long way behind.

[Laith]

Except that the ranger is swinging 10% faster, which even if you're going for raw DPS is similar to being +4 damage above the fighter.due to some heavy hinting about items that grant tempest's haste boost but don't stack with tempest, that's up in the air.

we might just have another bloodstone on our hands...

[Turial]

Um, you're kind of forgetting the permanent 10% haste boost or the fact that not much stuff end game isn't a favored enemy.

My Rgr has Evil Outsiders, Constructs, Elementals and Aberrations, which is everything but what Gnolls, Trogs and the odd Troll end game right? Everything else he just uses stat damage anyway...

BUT SERIOUSLY - why are we debating this? Is there ONE PERSON who doesn't think Ftrs are underpowered compared to Barbs and Rgrs???

That is a problem and I have long been pushing for a much larger mob species diversity and for breaking the PrE's away from specific classes.

[frugal_gourmet]

due to some heavy hinting about items that grant tempest's haste boost but don't stack with tempest, that's up in the air.

we might just have another bloodstone on our hands...

My first instinct is: that's a really lame idea. But we'll see how it plays out.

[Murderface]

Um, you're kind of forgetting the permanent 10% haste boost or the fact that not much stuff end game isn't a favored enemy.

My Rgr has Evil Outsiders, Constructs, Elementals and Aberrations, which is everything but what Gnolls, Trogs and the odd Troll end game right? Everything else he just uses stat damage anyway...

BUT SERIOUSLY - why are we debating this? Is there ONE PERSON who doesn't think Ftrs are underpowered compared to Barbs and Rgrs???
lets be honest barbs dont compare to ranger damage because of fe damage in the offhand all barbs damage comes from str there offhand is .5 if your still gthf then you now your swingin about 1 swing per 4 ranger swings so really its a big jump between barb to ranger
i would say the best damage is halflingrogues/rangers then barbs then fighters then pallys then bards then monks if there all maxed out dps that is

[Cold_Stele]

due to some heavy hinting about items that grant tempest's haste boost but don't stack with tempest, that's up in the air.

Don't we already have a 10% alacrity item in the game? I know it as Jorgundal's Collar but you may know it by such terms as vendor trash, bank junk or AH garbage ;)

[Angelus_dead]

due to some heavy hinting about items that grant tempest's haste boost but don't stack with tempest, that's up in the air.
No, there was not "heavy" hinting. That was almost all long-range inference from the players.

It's a big leap from seeing that Tempest is "currently" untyped to deciding that's an announcement Tempest will be replaceable with items.

[gfunk]

BUT SERIOUSLY - why are we debating this? Is there ONE PERSON who doesn't think Ftrs are underpowered compared to Barbs and Rgrs???

well sure they do less dps..I'm pretty sure everyone agrees on that point. However, They still do good dps when equiped with decent weaponry (i dont think many people would complain about the twf fighter that has a lightning strike and a mineral II in their hands.. even if they don't match the barb, they will still do some very nice dps. Also, they have top notch burst dps when they turn on fighter hasteboost (not included in your calculations).

While the 20 seconds might not seem significant to some, I find that 5, 20 second boosts will last me most of the way through (for example):
a) the average 2 to 3 rounder in part 4 of shroud
b) approximately half of the beat down of Harry in part 5
c) the solo beat down of 1 lieutentant in part 2 (or more than enough to contribute some nice dps on the wall or deliver fast vorpals in the initial clean up phase)
d) a number of the tougher encounters on route to hound or visions
e) a few of the devil rounds in visions(nice for fast vorpaling), several of the renders in hound.

By playing careful, my fighter usually keeps up very well with the barbarians or rangers (at least on kill tally ** excluding w/p rapier wielding types).

That together with utilizing some intimidating and good blocking dr at the appropriate places makes me feel like I'm contributing to the party's wellfare.

[Turial]

Originally Posted by Turial http://images.ddoforum.turbine.com/images/buttons/green/viewpost.gif (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1886992#post1886992)
Overall the new fighter enhancements make a two weapon fighter relatively on par with a similar ranger (using rams might) vs non-favored mobs.

+1 to-hit for weapon focus feat
+2 damage for weapon specialization feat
+1 damage for weapon specialization level 8 enhancement
+1 damage for weapon specialization level 16 enhancement
+1 to-hit for greater weapon focus feat
+2 damage for greater weapon specialization feat
+1 damage for greater weapon specialization level 17 enhancement
+1 damage for greater weapon specialization level 18 enhancement
+1 to-hit for superior weapon focus feat
+2 damage for superior weapon specialization feat



Total: +3 to-hit and +10 damage Fighter Permanent. Getting close to what fighters deserve for their devotion to a specific weapon.
Total: +1 to-hit and +4 damage Ranger Dispellable buff.

the way i see it sounds like superior focus might lead to superior specialization, so total from feats would be +6, then add another +2 from enhancements +4 for axe if your a dwarf. Thats a total of +8-+10 to each hand dual weilding that would be pretty darn close to fe damage for rangers...barbs offhand damage stinks getting barb pa maxed and using a offhand weapon isnt that great all your str is .5 so in the end a dwarf dual wielder would get better off hand damage per regular hit. so im thinking superior focus is pretty good sign there will be superior specialization and if theres that thers probably a third wpn spec enhancment coming

Hopeful future feats and enhancements.

Side note: I am not really dissapointed in the fighter improvements but I am not impressed by it either. Fighters deserve something impressive.

[sephiroth1084]

Having taken a look at the new Fighter love for mod 8 I have to say I’m more than a little disappointed with what we’ve been given.

Fighter’s Weapon Specialization adds +1 damage at lvl 8 to a specific weapon type (eg. Dwarven Axe) and a further +1 at level 16 for a total cost of 3 AP.

+2 damage total.

The new Fighter tactical feats which we were looking forward to would appear (from the Compendium) to be just one - Superior Weapon Focus, again in a specific weapon type.

+1 to hit, should you wish to burn a feat on it.

That extra +2 damage is way too little to balance the melee classes and, to be honest, a slap in the face for us poor Ftrs who were promised so much.

Looking at these numbers (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1482696&postcount=588), a maxed Dwarven Barb with a Mineral II GreatAxe does 3d6+50 per swing and crits on 17-20. A maxed Dwarven Ftr (with the new enhancement) does 3d6+45 and crits on 19-20.

I am NOT saying that a Ftr’s DPS has to equal a Barb’s or a Rgr’s, but even with the new enhancements a Ftr hits for 5 points less per swing, has HALF the number of crits (with axes) and is at –3 to tactical feats compared to a Barb.

I appreciate that Fighter PrE’s are forthcoming in mod 9 but they would have to be grossly overpowered to even come close to Rangers, Barbs or even Pallies now it would seem.

If you aren't saying they should be equal, how close should they be before they are more or less equal? 5 damage and a couple of points to the threat range seems a fair difference between the 2. Especially since if the barbarian isn't maxed, the fighter likely is almost the same damage-wise. Then a fighter can get a hefty Haste boost a few times per rest for big burst damage.

And vs. paladins, a fighter does +6 damage/hit on every hit (just looking at the Weapon Focus/Spec line) at the cost of 4 feats (of which they have MANY), and 2 enhancements, while a paladin has to dump a lot of points into Cha at creation to get +2/4/6/8 damage with an additional cost of 10 AP (and dropping other scores). And these will be good for short bursts, maybe over a whole quest, but there will be times where the paladin has used a few Divine Righteousness or runs out mid-combat and doesn't bring it back up immediately.

Paladins get some decent burst damage, but it requires a lot of concentration and but-clicking to get it working, and a fairly significant investiture of AP, while fighters have more consistent DPS at the cost of a fairly abundant resource for them (feats). Besides, fighters get the Str+ enhancements, and the Haste boost, which also ups their DPS (both vs. paladins and barbarians).

[Laith]

Don't we already have a 10% alacrity item in the game? I know it as Jorgundal's Collar but you may know it by such terms as vendor trash, bank junk or AH garbage ;)Alacrity items are all Enhancement Bonus currently. They don't stack with the haste spell, or other alacrity items.

"character sheet bonuses stack with items or spells, items/spells don't stack with items/spells" is the general rule.

There are few exceptions. Most telling in this case is monk wind stance (currently Enhancement/Insight). It would seem quite likely that Monks won't be the only ones to not have 100% stacking forms of attack speed.


No, there was not "heavy" hinting. That was almost all long-range inference from the players.

It's a big leap from seeing that Tempest is "currently" untyped to deciding that's an announcement Tempest will be replaceable with items.
personally, i'll leave it you all to consider the meaning of the quote (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=1882199#post1882199). Sure, it could just be a correction, but they usually leave that sort of thing for someone like you, A_D.

I will agree that the typing of tempest doesn't necessarily mean items. it could be Insight (upsetting monk/rangers). Unlikely Sacred (upsetting pally/rangers). Likely [partially] Enhancement (making it like wind stance).

If it was just housekeeping (ie "we're making Sacred, so let's just go ahead and type Tempest"), he might have said that instead of saying that the typing of tempest was to intentionally make it not stack with something.

[Laith]

double post

[Murderface]

If you're going to be accurate you can't use different races when comparing - you have to assume both are Dwarves with Dorf Axe Damage otherwise those numbers are meaningless. Also it's not just the damage per swing that makes Rgrs so great it's the permanent 10% haste boost.

I haven't crunched TWF numbers yet but guess I could. Adding SWS in the THF scenario would still equal 3 points less per swing and HALF the number of crits compared to Barbs though.

Sure it's closing the gap but it's still a long way behind.
even if your not a dwarf its still +8 to offhand and then .5 damage from str and barb in the best scenarior beats fighter str by 6-8 str 48 at best thats a +18 damage but only +9 in the offhand compared to fighter if everything goes right and we get sup wpn spec in the future and a third enhancment for a non dwarf thats a +9 to offhand then take your str which should be about 42 at lvl 20 madstoned and all that good stuff thats a +8 damage in the offhand

so fighter offhand damage could be +17 instead of what barbs is now which is +9 :P rangers right now have a what is it +15 fe damage int he offhand and of course there .5 str damage so at least it would be closer

and then if they put in a weapons master sort of kensai and have it give extra widened crit at 14 ftr and crit multiplier at 18 ftr then you got a guy on par with a ranger

[Capstern]

Well they didn't nerf Tempest, despite the huge waves of panic that they had.

That's a whole lotta love right there ;)

Which hopefully they will do at some point - to bring it in line even if its to type part of tempest haste as non stackable with regualr haste

[Cold_Stele]

Also, they have top notch burst dps when they turn on fighter hasteboost (not included in your calculations).

Barb or Rgr with a Ftr 2 splash gets Ftr's Haste Boost too...


If you aren't saying they should be equal, how close should they be before they are more or less equal? 5 damage and a couple of points to the threat range seems a fair difference between the 2.

See, it's awfully easy to try to trivialize the issue when you say 'a couple of points of threat range'. Can I remind you we're talking about Crit Rage, the most overpowered enhancement to ever hit the game? That 'couple of points' equates to double the number of crits with axes. And it's the devs who've stated it's overpowered, not me.

So IMO 5 points (the equivalent of 10 Str) and double the crits doesn't seem like such a 'fair difference'. Especially as the Barb will also have better HP, saves and DR (and this is a THF scenario so neither will have AC).

Again, seriously, have you never seen LFM's excluding Ftrs? I assure the rest of theDDO community is aware there's a problem with Ftrs (and the devs too or we wouldn't be getting the new stuff).


Especially since if the barbarian isn't maxed, the fighter likely is almost the same damage-wise.

Hmmm, unless we compare two identically equipped builds we could say anything we wanted here to justify our arguments.

[eyepuppy]

Well there are so many answers to that I don't know where to start :)

1. DPS - is there anything more important in this game? I know you must have been in Shroud - do you not agree it's all about pure DPS? Have you honestly never seen Shroud LFM's looking exclusively for Barbs and Rgrs only?

2. Ftr's have feats and versatility to do what else? Tactical Feats? Barbs do it better - you need to spend 6 AP per feat to get DC equal to a Barb.

3. So what else can a Ftr do? Best AC? Nope - even if you make extensive sacrifices, a Ranger/Monk will have better AC.

Sure, the one thing a Ftr can do better than anyone is spam Intimidate vs the Orthons in VOD. If I couldn't do that, I wouldn't be invited in there either ;)

But to reiterate, I mention DPS because it's all that matters in 95% or more of the game's content. If you don't have the DPS you're a liability to the group.

And that's why you don't see Ftrs wanted in Shroud LFM's...

Build a better toon maybe? I don't know. My fighter does a great dose of DPS and can almost match barbarian single hit DPS.

[Elaril]

It's official...the devs hate fighters. 8 and 16????? Remind me, what levels do barbs pick up crit rage 1 and 2.

[Cold_Stele]

Build a better toon maybe? I don't know. My fighter does a great dose of DPS and can almost match barbarian single hit DPS.

Lol, here are the numbers for identically equipped THF Barb at current cap compared to Ftr -

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1482696&postcount=588

I'd love to hear what feats and enhancements you've discovered that gives you an advantage over the Barb PA and Crit Rage combo.

Put your money where your mouth is, post some actual numbers, or move along...

[maddmatt70]

All I know is if the fighters would have complained like the paladins did after mod 6 came into existence when rangers and barbarians were both superior because of tempest and crit rage 2 fighters wouldn't be in this situation.

Instead of just +1 damage the weapon specialization enhancments would have been higher like divine might. I have no idea why the weapon specialization enhancements weren't like divine might's = to +6 or +8. I mean since they are adding something why not make it worthwhile.

If the fighters in ddo would have complained like the pallys in ddo this wouldn't have happened I can almost guarantee it.

[maddmatt70]

To the people actually trying to make arguments that fighters dps isnt the least of any melee class what game are you playing.

[Aesop]

I'm a little disappointed in the WP Spec Enhancements.. Barbs get Crit Rage 2 at 14 and Fighters have to wait til level 16 to get WP Spec 2? and its for 1 weapon type only. Little bit more needs to be there. Heck the Racial ones at least apply to 2 (usually in some cases more ... Dwarf I'm looking at you)

I have said before that making Critical Accuracy a form of Stacking Seeker would be a welcome change. Even if it only gave a max of +4

THe fact that A raged Barbarian is a superior tactical fighter than a Fighter is a big silly thing. Make those +2 to DCs instead of +1.

Fighter Armor and shield masteries?... I think I address that below... Anyway these were a few other things I've written up recently... like over the last month or two.

the big thing for Fighter Love



MORE FEAT ARE NEEDED

Combat Form Feat: The First is Focus and it is a Prereq for all the rest. This would essentially be like Manyshot is set up now where you'd have 1-1.5 min of Combat Focus and then a 2-3 min cooldown. As you buy up the Feat all bought become part of the Focus...

Combat Focus
Requires a Wisdom score of 13
This Feat grants a limited duration (10 rounds +1/Combat Form Feat) Combat Focus. This Grants a +2 to Will Saves. If you have 3 or more Combat Form Feat the bonus increases to 4. Combat Focus is also the Prerequisite for other Combat Form Feats. Those Feat improve the benefits of the Combat Focus.

Combat Stability
Requires BAB+3 Combat Focus
Grants a +4 to resist Bull Rush Trip etc (Increase to +8 with 3+ Combat Form Feat)

Combat Defense
Requires BAB +6 Dodge and Combat Focus
Allows you to Switch your Dodge Target as an Immediate action (increase Dodge bonus by +1 with 3+ Combat Form Feats)
Modify for DDO to Grant an Additional +1 Dodge AC and +2 with 3+ Combat Form Feat

Combat Vigor
Requires BAB +9 Combat Focus
Gain Fast Healing 2 while Focused (4 with 3+ Combat Form Feat)

Combat Awareness
Requires BAB+12 Combat Focus and Blind Fighting
Gain Knowledge of the Health of Adjacent Creatures (3+ Combat Form Feat grant Blindsight 5')
I don’t know… Someone else think of something for this one

Combat Strike
Requires BAB +15 Combat Focus 2 other Combat Form Feat
Grants the ability to expend your Focus to gain a bonus to attack and damage = to number of Combat Form Feats for the current turn
Modify to just grant a Bonus to Damage (maybe +2) while in Combat Focus


Shield Combat Suggestions

Alchemical Rituals
Have the bonuses be based on Shield or Armor type. I'm for a +1 apply to Light Armor, Cloth Armor, Bucklers and Light Shields, and a +2 for Medium and Heavy Armor and Heavy and Tower Shields.

I also suggest a second tier of Alchemical Rituals that require a Shield Previously Enchanted by the first tier ritual that applies the same bonus and a Blocking DR or Deflection Bonus.

Example:
Alchemical Ritual of Blocking: Ingredients: Bound Alchemically Enhanced Shield, 25 Greater Earth Soul Stones.
Effect: Improves the Blocking DR of the Shield by 2 for Bucklers and Light Shields and by 4 for Heavy and Tower Shields

Additionally there is a Feat in the Players Handbook 2 called

Shield Specialization
Grants +1 AC when using Shields (and is a prerequisite for other Feat)(could also allow it to increase the Max Dex Bonus from Tower Shields)
Another option here is to have this apply a multiple tiered effect as well and have it cover a few different ideas at the same time.

Example:
Shield Specialization
This Feat grants +1 AC when using Bucklers or Light Shields and a +2 to Heavy and Tower Shields. This Feat also increases the Maximum Dex Bonus of Tower Shields by 1 and increases the DR while blocking with a shield by 5.

I’d have this feat replace the Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery Feats.
Another thing to consider is the Armor Mastery Enhancements. I think a slight change here would be better for fighters. Make the Armor Mastery Line only 2 tiers and create a Separate line called Armor Optimization that instead of increasing the Max Dex Bonus increases the Armor Bonus.

Fighter Armor Optimization I
2AP
+1 AC while wearing armor (pjs don't count)
Fighter Armor Optimization II
4AP
+2 AC while wearing armor (pjs don't count)


Fighter Armor Mastery I
2AP
+1 Max Dex Bonus

Fighter Armor Mastery II
4AP
+2 Max Dex Bonus


Fighter Shield Mastery I
2AP
+1 Max Dex Bonus with a Tower Shield
+2 Blocking DR any Shield

Fighter Armor Mastery II
4AP
+2 Max Dex Bonus with a Tower Shield
+4 Blocking DR with any Shield





Armor Specialization
Requires BAB +12
Grant DR 2/- with that type of Armor
I think that armors that have a natural DR/- should stack with this ie: Adamantine Full Plate would become DR5/-
This may not sound like a lot of DR but over the course of a quest could add up significantly. But perhaps this one is too weak and a little more is needed as well, in that case I wrote up a second suggestion below

Armor Specialization
Requires BAB +12
This Feat Increases the Maximum Dexterity Bonus that may be applied to a given set of Armor by 1 and Increases the Armor’s natural DR by 2-4 points; 2 for Light Armor, 3 for Medium Armor and 4 for Heavy Armor. Thus a chain Shirt with no natural DR while worn by someone with this Feat would have a DR of 2/- while the same character wearing a set of Adamantine Full Plate (DR3/-) would have a DR of 7/-



A thought that passed around was applying a new incentive to shield users… This could be difficult but I think it would also be a good way to balance things out. Apply a “Miss Chance” based on Shield bonus to AC. Actually instead of a Miss Chance so much a chance to absorb some of the blow. Basically if a attacker scores a hit against the Shielded character a percent chance is rolled to see if the defender takes the shot on the shield and absorbs some of the damage. He is still hit so any of the non physical damage goes through but if the shield takes the brunt of the force the damage would be reduced by the defenders blocking DR.
I’d suggest making the chance relative to the shield bonus and give Tower Shields a Bonus for Cover and Bucklers a penalty. I think the base deflection bonus should be 2% per point of Shield AC with the buckler counting as 1 lower and Tower Shields as 2 higher.

so a +5 Buckler is 10%
and a +5 Tower Shield 22%

Now combine that with a few of the other ideas put forward in this post like the Alchemical Ritual modification and Shield Specialization Feat and a +5 Alchemically Treated Buckler comes out as 14% and the Tower Shield as 30%
A top tier maxed out(+5 Ritual and Feat) Heavy Shield would yield 22%... not too bad considering. No real need for the Paladin to get the Tower Shield Feat unless he really feels he needs to for his build.
Now add on to that the following two Feat that I heavily modified from the Players Handbook and I think we have a strong potential

Active Shield Defense
Requires Shield Specialization
Grants the ability to make Attacks of Opportunity (AoO) while Fighting Defensively without Penalty

Well we don't have AoO in DDO so something different and I think this lends itself well to be an additional 1% per Shield Bonus to Shield Deflection. So that top tiered Alchemically Enhanced Tower Shield goes from 30% Deflection rate to 45% and the Heavy Shield from 22% to 33%.


Shield Ward
Requires Shield Specialization
Grants the shields AC bonus to touch AC, and a bonus to resist Bull Rush, Overrun, Trip, Disarm and Grapple

Now we don't have Touch Attacks in DDO... but we have Rays that we have little defense against. I think having this apply the Deflection rate against Rays would be a way to make this a highly desirable ability.



Now damage mitigation isn't the only issue with S&B fighting ... we also have a low damage which doesn't make the style very well liked.

A suggestion I made was giving S&B Passive Shield Bash sort of like the THF glancing blows and to improve the Feat Improved Shield Bash to improve that function. I'd say these Shield Bashes wouldn't be AOE like glancing blow but instead would apply to the target being attacked and would apply more direct damage.

Aesop

[Aesop]

oh further note... Superior Focus/Specialization are not "tactical" Feat

just saying

[Tin_Dragon]

**put hands over ears repeating, "think positive, think positive...."**:)

No... do we have a choice?... No:(

We should hold Kate hostage, she did say New Years for Mod 9

[Torilin]

There is absolutly no doubt that fighters are the weakest of the melee class.

There is no way a character wearing a robe and wielding 2 weapons should have a higher AC than a fighter fully speced out wearing armor and shield.

Fighter has become a splash class, because the devs have made this game into a DPS machine and if you dont have it you dont contribute.

I do have faith though, for the longest time rangers were the weakest link, now they are the most powerful, maybe one day when the dev's pull their heads out fighters will become what they should be.

[Tanka]

Um, you're kind of forgetting the permanent 10% haste boost or the fact that not much stuff end game isn't a favored enemy.

My Rgr has Evil Outsiders, Constructs, Elementals and Aberrations, which is everything but what Gnolls, Trogs and the odd Troll end game right? Everything else he just uses stat damage anyway...
Any of the Fiend-Blood enemies are also considered Outsiders (since they can be banished), so that increases the number of FEs in the Vale quests.


Barb or Rgr with a Ftr 2 splash gets Ftr's Haste Boost too...
Ftr 1 splash, actually. Same with one level of Rogue, plus full access to OL/DD/UMD and still gain access to Intimidate (or, if you're feeling wily, Bluff or Diplomacy).

[Angelus_dead]

Any of the Fiend-Blood enemies are also considered Outsiders (since they can be banished), so that increases the number of FEs in the Vale quests.
No. They are considered magical beasts, reptiles, gnolls, or even humans.

After all, an Elemental can be banished; you wouldn't say it takes damage from outsider-bane, right?

[sephiroth1084]

Barb or Rgr with a Ftr 2 splash gets Ftr's Haste Boost too...



See, it's awfully easy to try to trivialize the issue when you say 'a couple of points of threat range'. Can I remind you we're talking about Crit Rage, the most overpowered enhancement to ever hit the game? That 'couple of points' equates to double the number of crits with axes. And it's the devs who've stated it's overpowered, not me.

So IMO 5 points (the equivalent of 10 Str) and double the crits doesn't seem like such a 'fair difference'. Especially as the Barb will also have better HP, saves and DR (and this is a THF scenario so neither will have AC).

And I also asked at what point does it become reasonable? When a fighter is doing 1 point of damage less than a barbarian? And, you discount Fighter Haste Boost II, III, IV, which add some decent burst.

I am not at all implying that fighters are even with barbarians, but you said that they SHOULDN'T deal as much damage as a barbarian, so where does that line fall? What is reasonable?


Again, seriously, have you never seen LFM's excluding Ftrs?

No.

[creithne]

oh further note... Superior Focus/Specialization are not "tactical" Feat

just saying

My thoughts exactly, when I heard "tactical" feats, I was thinking (as most folks, I would guess) maybe improved stunning blow or something that goes along with...I dunno...the fighter's TACTICS line of enhancements (IE trip, sunder, stunning blow, etc...)...

[Tanka]

No. They are considered magical beasts, reptiles, gnolls, or even humans.

After all, an Elemental can be banished; you wouldn't say it takes damage from outsider-bane, right?
Point. I always get confused by adding subtypes. Extraplanar != Outsider.

[Cold_Stele]

And I also asked at what point does it become reasonable? When a fighter is doing 1 point of damage less than a barbarian? And, you discount Fighter Haste Boost II, III, IV, which add some decent burst.

I am not at all implying that fighters are even with barbarians, but you said that they SHOULDN'T deal as much damage as a barbarian, so where does that line fall? What is reasonable?



Firstly - I'm not sure what your point is about FHB. Yes it's nice. So are WS, GWS, Ftr's Str, etc. Add em all together and you still get second rate DPS.

As for how close should Ftr DPS be to Barb? I'm not going to answer that, I'm going to let my friend the Player's Handbook do that :)

This is what max Ftr and Barb DPS would be in pnp with current gear, without Turbine's (self admittedly) overpowered enhancement system -

Dwarven Barb max str: 43 = +16 STR bonus attack/damage/trip
18 base
4 levels
6 item
3 tome
6 greater rage
4 madstone
2 rage potion

damage with max PA/axe enh and min II gaxe: 3d6+39
24 str (2 hander)
5 wep
10 PA

Dwarven Ftr max str: 37 = +13 STR bonus attack/damage/trip
18 base
4 level
6 item
3 tome
4 madstone
2 rage pot

damage: 3d6+ 38
19 str (2hander)
4 feat
5 wep
10 PA

So there's your answer - according to the PHB Barb should do one point more damage per swing and equal number of crits.

*I rushed these numbers before heading home so there could be errors*

[Aerendil]

^^ Well, that's just it. In PnP you were looking at *much* closer numbers between the various builds. Nobody was walking around with 30+ in their stats, or with a 100 AC, unless they were the avatar of a god. And even then, the avatars probably wouldn't have those stats :p
Nor were level 16 characters walking around with dual vorpals, dual banishers, dual banes, and some dual paralyzers. You were generally lucky to have *ONE* of those weapons.

So with an equipment list that allows such drastic inflation, and a PrE system that further improves on it, you reach a point where the miniscule differences between classes start expanding exponentially. Hence our current day scenerios.

At which point, you either nerf things down to what they should be, or elevate the other things to match the power of the unbalanced stuff.
And since nobody wants a nerf, the obvious answer is to just overpower the other classes to restore "balance".

But at what point does it get out of hand. Should Barbarians be running around with 40+ STR while raged?
Should Monks and Rangers be able to attain such a crazy AC as to make them virtually untouchable except on a natural 20?

It's all a bit crazy, if you ask me.

[Aranticus]

nvm

[Sue_Dark]

but there putting massivly underpowered prc in purple dragon knight good stuff unless theres a bard around so certaily there competence bonus would have to stack with bard or be totaly useless and a waste of points, defender heres one thats totaly defensive in fact one of the stipulations is that you have to stand perfectly still for defenders abilities(standing still in ddo usualy doesnt work), then we have kensai hmmm now if it were some kind weapons master kensai with widened criticals and extra crit multiplier with one type of weapon now that would work
obviously you dont make it stack with barb stuff and make it impossible to get the extre crit multiplier make it a lvl 14 restriction. you should just look forward to the steady increase in ranger love because turbines trackrecord so far is making ranger better every single mod

please someone prove me wrong tell me one mod where ranger didnt get a big dose of love

As another pointed out... until tempest, rangers were the hated class. Been playin em since beta, there was a very long painful time there where the only way to get a group was to start it yourself or to know someone inside.

Toughing out the ranger hate made the love that much more sweet.

[Boldrin]

Having taken a look at the new Fighter love for mod 8 I have to say I’m more than a little disappointed with what we’ve been given.

Fighter’s Weapon Specialization adds +1 damage at lvl 8 to a specific weapon type (eg. Dwarven Axe) and a further +1 at level 16 for a total cost of 3 AP.

+2 damage total.

The new Fighter tactical feats which we were looking forward to would appear (from the Compendium) to be just one - Superior Weapon Focus, again in a specific weapon type.

+1 to hit, should you wish to burn a feat on it.

That extra +2 damage is way too little to balance the melee classes and, to be honest, a slap in the face for us poor Ftrs who were promised so much.

Looking at these numbers (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1482696&postcount=588), a maxed Dwarven Barb with a Mineral II GreatAxe does 3d6+50 per swing and crits on 17-20. A maxed Dwarven Ftr (with the new enhancement) does 3d6+45 and crits on 19-20.

I am NOT saying that a Ftr’s DPS has to equal a Barb’s or a Rgr’s, but even with the new enhancements a Ftr hits for 5 points less per swing, has HALF the number of crits (with axes) and is at –3 to tactical feats compared to a Barb.

I appreciate that Fighter PrE’s are forthcoming in mod 9 but they would have to be grossly overpowered to even come close to Rangers, Barbs or even Pallies now it would seem.

That barb also has a -10 ac my ftr can hit 60s( while TWF) with proper buffs and doesn't have to rely on rage. Fighters are fine, some people just don't know their role.

[Lehrman]

Looking at these numbers (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1482696&postcount=588), a maxed Dwarven Barb with a Mineral II GreatAxe does 3d6+50 per swing and crits on 17-20. A maxed Dwarven Ftr (with the new enhancement) does 3d6+45 and crits on 19-20.



Fighter max str: 18+4+3+3+6 (base, lvls, tome, enhancement, item)=34 (+12)
Barb max Str: 18+4+3+6+10raged (Base, lvls, tome, item)=41 (42 if human) (+16) Omitting rage pots, madtone etc.

So at the moment fighter damage is +12, barb +16
Fighter Weapon spec +2damage, greater weapon spec +2= a total of +4 (the equivelent of +8str for damage purposes)Omitting rage pots, madtone etc.
This equalizes the fighter's damage v. the barbs. The gap in damage based on class is from two things:
1.) Barbs get crit rage and fighters do not have the same.
2.) Barbs can take the power attack enhncement line to give up a point of hitroll for +1 damage (+2 if dual wielding) (-3, +3 or -3,+6 capped.)

The other difference is hitroll. Even with weapon focus/greater weapon focus, the difference between barb and fighter hitroll (pre-enhancement) would be -2. This is to say that the fighter has 2 less hitroll than the barb. After enhancements, the fighter will have 1 more hitroll than the barb (barbarian power attack line), but 3-6 fewer damage. With the new enhancements a lvl 16 fighter would still have 1 more hitroll, but only 2 less damage. The main difference on a damage chart is primarily the result of Crit Rage.

[Cold_Stele]

The gap in damage based on class is from two things:
1.) Barbs get crit rage and fighters do not have the same.
2.) Barbs can take the power attack enhncement line to give up a point of hitroll for +1 damage (+2 if dual wielding) (-3, +3 or -3,+6 capped.)

That's exactly the point I'm making - Barbs and Ftrs were balanced when designed. The enhancement system has made them grossly unbalanced.

Like Madmatt says, anyone who thinks otherwise has to be playing a different game.

Which brings me to...


That barb also has a -10 ac my ftr can hit 60s( while TWF) with proper buffs and doesn't have to rely on rage. Fighters are fine, some people just don't know their role.

OK, I'm gonna play and put aside for the minute that the Barb's answer to that AC is more HP, DR, DR boost, Improved Uncanny Dodge and MUCH better saves.

Why don't you post some numbers and let us decide if you're build's fine or not? Whilst you're at it you can explain what a Ftr's role is.

I've already asked this guy to put his money where his mouth is and post some numbers -


Build a better toon maybe? I don't know. My fighter does a great dose of DPS and can almost match barbarian single hit DPS.

Hopefully you're going to have the courage to back what you're saying unlike the last guy...

[noinfo]

There is absolutly no doubt that fighters are the weakest of the melee class.

There is no way a character wearing a robe and wielding 2 weapons should have a higher AC than a fighter fully speced out wearing armor and shield.

Fighter has become a splash class, because the devs have made this game into a DPS machine and if you dont have it you dont contribute.

I do have faith though, for the longest time rangers were the weakest link, now they are the most powerful, maybe one day when the dev's pull their heads out fighters will become what they should be.

The problem lies with the way dnd and ddo work armour. Ac is a combination of how people avoiding damage and armour preventing damage, its a very simplistic system. Do you honestly think that your armoured up tank with shield should be harder to hit than an incredibly agile elf/halfling with their 34 odd dex and the insight gained from their wisdom if they splash? Sorry to me the creatures we face at higher levels are powerful enough to cut through that armour and probably should have a harder time hiting the more agile, high dex/wis. Also who is more likely able to take the hit? The elf who has maxed out dex and wis? or the Dwarf (sorry for stereo typing here) who has massive hp and high strength for dps as well?

My biggest issue is that both characters are damaged the same when hit. If you want to balance it more, then I think passive stacking dr is the way to go for the heavy armoured shield wearers.

[dageth]

Fighter max str: 18+4+3+3+6 (base, lvls, tome, enhancement, item)=34 (+12)
Barb max Str: 18+4+3+6+10raged (Base, lvls, tome, item)=41 (42 if human) (+16) Omitting rage pots, madtone etc.

So at the moment fighter damage is +12, barb +16
Fighter Weapon spec +2damage, greater weapon spec +2= a total of +4 (the equivelent of +8str for damage purposes)Omitting rage pots, madtone etc.
This equalizes the fighter's damage v. the barbs. The gap in damage based on class is from two things:
1.) Barbs get crit rage and fighters do not have the same.
2.) Barbs can take the power attack enhncement line to give up a point of hitroll for +1 damage (+2 if dual wielding) (-3, +3 or -3,+6 capped.)

The other difference is hitroll. Even with weapon focus/greater weapon focus, the difference between barb and fighter hitroll (pre-enhancement) would be -2. This is to say that the fighter has 2 less hitroll than the barb. After enhancements, the fighter will have 1 more hitroll than the barb (barbarian power attack line), but 3-6 fewer damage. With the new enhancements a lvl 16 fighter would still have 1 more hitroll, but only 2 less damage. The main difference on a damage chart is primarily the result of Crit Rage.

Well said.

[eyepuppy]

Lol, here are the numbers for identically equipped THF Barb at current cap compared to Ftr -

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1482696&postcount=588

I'd love to hear what feats and enhancements you've discovered that gives you an advantage over the Barb PA and Crit Rage combo.

Put your money where your mouth is, post some actual numbers, or move along...

Sorry for being unclear. I was meaning that I can almost match Barbarian DPS. They still win, but I do quite a bit of damage.

Damage breakdown (doing it fast so I can get back to the game. Might miss something).

Fighter:
----------------
1d12+48
----------------
22 STR (2 madstone, 1 pot)
10 PA
1 prayer
3 favored enemy
4 weapon spec
5 weapon
2 axe enhancements
1 new weapon spec enhancement

Then slap on bard songs and a bloodstone for mroe damage.

BARB:
----------------
1d12+48+51
----------------
27 STR (2 madstone, 1 pot, 1 full barb rage)
16 PA
1 prayer
5 weapon
2 axe enhancements


and a barbarian can't keep prayer on him between fights, so that shouldn't even be on there really. So It's 3 higher. So I can match a barbarian DPS up until the crits. Crits are what bring them higher, but the new mod will have undead bosses for the raid. So there you go.

[maddmatt70]

Sorry for being unclear. I was meaning that I can almost match Barbarian DPS. They still win, but I do quite a bit of damage.

Damage breakdown (doing it fast so I can get back to the game. Might miss something).

Fighter:
----------------
1d12+48
----------------
22 STR (2 madstone, 1 pot)
10 PA
1 prayer
3 favored enemy
4 weapon spec
5 weapon
2 axe enhancements
1 new weapon spec enhancement

Then slap on bard songs and a bloodstone for mroe damage.

BARB:
----------------
1d12+48+51
----------------
27 STR (2 madstone, 1 pot, 1 full barb rage)
16 PA
1 prayer
5 weapon
2 axe enhancements


and a barbarian can't keep prayer on him between fights, so that shouldn't even be on there really. So It's 3 higher. So I can match a barbarian DPS up until the crits. Crits are what bring them higher, but the new mod will have undead bosses for the raid. So there you go.

Lol. So a barb cant also splash a ranger level for 3 favored enemy. A barb without crits still does 6 more damage and with crits does quite a bit more according to your figures assuming both get favored enemy and splash a ranger level.

[Torilin]

The problem lies with the way dnd and ddo work armour. Ac is a combination of how people avoiding damage and armour preventing damage, its a very simplistic system. Do you honestly think that your armoured up tank with shield should be harder to hit than an incredibly agile elf/halfling with their 34 odd dex and the insight gained from their wisdom if they splash? Sorry to me the creatures we face at higher levels are powerful enough to cut through that armour and probably should have a harder time hiting the more agile, high dex/wis. Also who is more likely able to take the hit? The elf who has maxed out dex and wis? or the Dwarf (sorry for stereo typing here) who has massive hp and high strength for dps as well?

My biggest issue is that both characters are damaged the same when hit. If you want to balance it more, then I think passive stacking dr is the way to go for the heavy armoured shield wearers.

I dont disagree with what you say, but in DnD and DDO to get hit means you have taken dmg, armor should mean that it is harder to dmg said character. So to your point there should be a system that allows fully armored characters to take less dmg, hence either higher ac's or like you said some sort of stacking dr system.

[eyepuppy]

Lol. So a barb cant also splash a ranger level for 3 favored enemy. A barb without crits still does 6 more damage and with crits does quite a bit more according to your figures assuming both get favored enemy and splash a ranger level.

splash out of barb and you'll lose enhancements though.

[Tanka]

splash out of barb and you'll lose enhancements though.
At the moment, no, you won't. Crit Rage 2 is Barb14, not Barb16.

[eyepuppy]

At the moment, no, you won't. Crit Rage 2 is Barb14, not Barb16.

What about end game? You'll lose mighty rage and 1 rage per day.

That's the problem with people today, you never think ahead :) Then there will be all the unsplashed build enhancements. Probably some level 20 barb enhancement that will increase crit damage somehow.

[Tanka]

What about end game? You'll lose mighty rage and 1 rage per day.

That's the problem with people today, you never think ahead :) Then there will be all the unsplashed build enhancements. Probably some level 20 barb enhancement that will increase crit damage somehow.
OHNOES! -2 Str/Con! What am I ever to do? :rolleyes:

No fatigue? Oh my goodness! Why, they only make Lesser Restore potions available to all!

The 14 Barb/6 Ranger (Tempest) is the build to look for. By not having the extra 2 Str/Con, they gain FE damage against two FEs. Gee, look, that paltry Mighty Rage is looking pretty pathetic now, isn't it?

[dominp]

That extra +2 damage is way too little to balance the melee classes and, to be honest, a slap in the face for us poor Ftrs who were promised so much.
Balance? why do they have to be balanced?



I am NOT saying that a Ftr’s DPS has to equal a Barb’s or a Rgr’s,
Um yeah you pretty much are.



I appreciate that Fighter PrE’s are forthcoming in mod 9 but they would have to be grossly overpowered to even come close to Rangers, Barbs or even Pallies now it would seem.
so they are not as uber as you want...that must mean there is absolutely no reason at all to ever play a fighter again.

[smatt]

Hmm, funny all I see are exact builds here, extremely tuned build of the month/mod builds..... The arguements should be made on a multitude of builds IE averages. Not on a specific build....

And Wobert you're still only using numbers in a perfect situation, while tumbling, standing on your head, with a banana in your hand :) . Try using overall avrage numbers spread over say 100 or better yet 1,000 swings... I think you'll find you're numbers won't be so superman ;)

There's no question that barbs should out DPS fighters, and that rangers should be at least equal to tanks. I think the original posters comments had to do with the stupidity that 0 tangible armor wearing, 2 weapon fighting rangers, can have a higher AC AND out DPS a fully armored fighter, and even match the DPS of a Barb :eek: Rangers took a beating for a long time, and onyl VERY well built and well played ranger toons were standouts.... They got some deserved love for sure. But in famous DDO fashion they not only gave them love, they gave them 2 hookers, and a bag full of cash on the side ;)

[maddmatt70]

Balance? why do they have to be balanced?


Rangers, Barbarians, and Paladins will all do over 15% more dps then fighters which hardly seems balanced especially since fighters are not better defensively then any of those classes and as a matter of fact probably have worse defenses then Paladins and rangers.

There is no reason to build a fighter next mod.

[eyepuppy]

OHNOES! -2 Str/Con! What am I ever to do? :rolleyes:

No fatigue? Oh my goodness! Why, they only make Lesser Restore potions available to all!

The 14 Barb/6 Ranger (Tempest) is the build to look for. By not having the extra 2 Str/Con, they gain FE damage against two FEs. Gee, look, that paltry Mighty Rage is looking pretty pathetic now, isn't it?

Until they balance TWF again. Then you will lose all the high level bonuses for barb (new enhancement lines). The devs have been hinting at level 20 enhancement lines for each class.

[dominp]

Rangers, Barbarians, and Paladins will all do over 15% more dps then fighters which hardly seems balanced especially since fighters are not better defensively then any of those classes and as a matter of fact probably have worse defenses then Paladins and rangers.

LOL i bet you are one of those people who tracks how many kills you get on each quest right??
"Oh no..somebody got 3 more kills then me on that last raid! I need to delete this toon and reroll now!!!"
And the fact that you even know that its 15% makes it more funny.



There is no reason to build a fighter next mod.
How about cause its fun to play??
oh no....cause of course this game is only fun if you have that extra 15% dps, forgot about that, sorry.

[Xyfiel]

Wanna talk gimp? How many virtuoso bards have you seen? I bet it is like 1/50th of fighters seen.

Anyway, new rage effect is fighter love I guess.

The lack of enemy variety and the ability to change favored enemies every three days really helps Rangers take the dps crown.

[Borror0]

Balance? why do they have to be balanced?
Is that (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=159126) enough?

[Borror0]

How about cause its fun to play??
Every time one is given the opportunity to play DDO, he has to answer "Do I want to play? Will it be fun for me?" Obviously, most of us, if not all of us, agree that DDO is fun to play. There is all something in it that we, as players, enjoy. It varies from one to another, but all players enjoy DDO (with the possible exception of plat farmer).

Once one has answered the previous question, the question he has to answer next is "What character should I play?" because it's impossible to play DDO without a character (unless you enjoy to looking at the character selection or character generation UI). Since the question "What character should I play? has to be answered, there has to be a choice made. That choice will encompass both logical and emotional arguments, but in the end there will most likely be a justification to that choice (unless you rolled dices to make your choices).

Some of the most common arguments are:

I wanted something different than the characters I already had.
I wanted a [party function]and this is what best represents my preferences.
I wanted to try that build everyone else is talking about.
I looted [piece of loot] and I just had to build something around it.

The problem with fighters is that they fit in nowhere in this. Fighters barely represent something that the other class have to offer. They are not the best at any party function, no matter how you look at it. For example, rangers and barbarians both make solid two-weapon fighting characters. Which you prefer depends on what you like best. There are no argument you can make in this case to justify fighter. Then, I think it's safe to assume fighters are not really en vogue right now. And lastly, there are no gear, as far as I know, that would justify making a fighter over all of the nine other classes.

Fighters lack any incentive to be created and played and that is undesirable.

[Twerpp]

That 2 pt per swing dps increase is not only weak as f**k, it took absolutely no effort, work, or creativity. Pathetic.

[Borror0]

That 2 pt per swing dps increase is not only weak as f**k, it took absolutely no effort, work, or creativity. Pathetic.
Honestly, you got to recognize it is not a bad move. It's an easy way to narrow the gap, but it's not enough yet.

[sephiroth1084]

There are no argument you can make in this case to justify fighter. Then, I think it's safe to assume fighters are not really en vogue right now. And lastly, there are no gear, as far as I know, that would justify making a fighter over all of the nine other classes.

Fighters lack any incentive to be created and played and that is undesirable.

There we go! Finally! DDO mirroring PnP. :P

Honestly, the only thing fighters have ever really stood out for is as (in my opinion, and that of many posters over on the wizards 3.5 boards) a tactics build, with some particular focus in mind (like locking down casters, or everyone, or the like). The generally don't do anything better than anyone else until they get 5, 6, 8, or 10-feat combos going.

DDO has made fighters more popular by making the other melee classes almost as dull in terms of what they can do. Now, everyone else has been getting cool stuff, and the fighter hasn't so that inherent difference has become more noticeable. Add to that the facts that there are woefully few feats for a fighter to choose from (and no real feat combos to speak of), and that a high strength barbarian gets the same (or better) trip or stunning blow DC as a fighter with all the feats and enhancements.

In PnP fighter was almost exclusively a splash 1, 2 or 4 level class. DDO has done MUCH to make playing a fighter more worthwhile, though not in the ways it should have. The enhancement system generally, while introducing serious power issues, did much to correct many of the flaws in class design from PnP; namely, classes not getting any class features of note after level 4 or 6 (depending).

When the fighter PrCs come out, I think (hope) it will be worth playing as more than a splash.

[sephiroth1084]

Rangers, Barbarians, and Paladins will all do over 15% more dps then fighters which hardly seems balanced especially since fighters are not better defensively then any of those classes and as a matter of fact probably have worse defenses then Paladins and rangers.

There is no reason to build a fighter next mod.

Where are you getting this 15% number, and how do you figure paladins to be so far ahead (if at all) of fighters?

[Borror0]

Where are you getting this 15% number, and how do you figure paladins to be so far ahead (if at all) of fighters?
I doubt paladins will be much ahead of fighters, but Zeal (and possibly Divine Might) will doubtlessly help them.

[sephiroth1084]

I doubt paladins will be much ahead of fighters, but Zeal (and possibly Divine Might) will doubtlessly help them.

They will of course help, but given their short duration, necessity to click so many things during combat AND reactivate CE (for some paladins), and the drain on a paladin's over-all stats, I doubt paladins are going to so readily supplant fighters' damage potential.

I see it this way: a fighter gets +2, +4, or (now) +6 bonus to damage every time he swings his weapon, at the cost of some feats, of which he has many, while a paladin, trying to get the same thing, will need a 14, 16 or 18 Cha, which will drop his Str, Dex or Con in all likelihood, so the fighter will have the edge in other areas. This discounts the higher Str a fighter will have also. Besides, Zeal is more or less the same thing as the FHB. The former can be used more often (potentially), while the latter gives a greater increase in attack speed. I say potentially, because the paladin has to work a little to get enough SP to be casting a lot of 4th level spells, and because he will still want to be casting Divine Favor, Resists (maybe) and a few other spells here or there.

I think that paladins and fighters will be closer in damage than they were, but I'm not convinced that paladins are going to have 15% more than a fighter.

[Borror0]

They will of course help, but given their short duration, necessity to click so many things during combat AND reactivate CE (for some paladins), and the drain on a paladin's over-all stats, I doubt paladins are going to so readily supplant fighters' damage potential.
Sooner or later, Turbine will have to revise their approach toward paladin and fighters.

First, is the AC myth. There seem to be a false belief that these classes should be about AC. Truth is, no class should be about AC. (In my opinion, even monks should be offered an opportunity to trade their wisdom bonus to AC for DPS.) Focusing a class about AC is bad design for two reason.

It's getting incredibly hard nowadays to get an AC that matters. Basing the class around AC shuts the class for some player and makes it less interesting to play for many.
Getting a decent armored Armor Class pretty much requires S&B. It is achievable without, but many will find it is not worth the trade off.

It would be a good idea for Turbine to move away from that myth.

Secondly, short duration buffs are not popular. How many rogues and barbarians use their Uncanny Dodge? Not that many. Human Versatility is not that popular because it lasts not very long. Clicking this, then that, followed by this and lastly that... is not what makes the game fun to most people.

The strength of the DDO combat style is the mobility. It's the control, the freedom you have over your character. It's the feeling that you're in control, rather than click-and-waiting.

The problem with clicking all the time, to cast Zeal, then Divine Favor, then reactivate CE, then Divine Might, then Haste Boost before each encounter, followed then using Divine Sacrifice every 3s and possibly Smite Evil during the fight ruins that feeling of control. It is a good thing that paladins are about spells. In the end, that is what differentiate most from fighters. But non-stop clicking isn't popular in DDO. It's in contradiction with the strength of the combat system.

Thirdly, Turbine will have to sit down and define classes. All classes. For some, that is already done and is pretty obvious. If I were to poll a group of DDO players about what they think the barbarian class is about, I'm sure I would get a lot of "Damage!" or answers around that line. There seem to be no definition for both paladins and fighters. It has to be done. If they are going to improve a class, they have to define what that class should be about. If you want efficient results, better to know where you're going.

They should be looking at what both classes as what they are at the core. They should look at the classes' abilities and try to figure what defines them; what makes them unique. To me, what defines fighters is their bonus feats and what defines paladins are their capacity to cast spells (to a lesser extend, the help of their god). I know that doesn't make unanimity, but that doesn't matter. I can be something else. It can be whatever Turbine decides.

For example, some people say that paladins are S&B expects. Fine. If it's what Turbine think they should be about. But that is not the case right now. It is safe to say rangers are TWF and ranged experts as they got feats for both fighting style. It,s counterproductive to make a non-TWF, non-ranged ranger. We can't say the same about paladins. Heck, paladins don't have proficiency with Tower Shield which are, to many, the best type of shield in the game. Right now, both class lack focus and that is part of what is hurting them.

[Vorn]

Maybe fighters, like wizards, are, in the end, about versatility? I'm not sure they need to be about only "damage" or only "tactics" or only "AC" or only "damage absorption" or "CC" or....

Admittedly at present it's not working like that as certain builds are much better at everything than a pure fighter. Especially with the ability to retool FE's every few days, higher ac twf-ing, and all the other stuff that's been talked almost to death the last two weeks....:)

Absolutely agree with not liking multiple clicks for melee-ing--though I've some friends who really enjoy the ability to bring lots of clickable things into play speedily. I probably should learn how to hot key better to make easier--analog man:o

Guess we'll see how it plays out with the PrE specialization options come next year. I'm looking forward to seeing how my 28 point Elven pure fighter can be enhanced.

[Borror0]

Maybe fighters, like wizards, are, in the end, about versatility? I'm not sure they need to be about only "damage" or only "tactics" or only "AC" or only "damage absorption" or "CC" or...
There's two problem with that.

First, DDO requires too much specialization to be effective while being versatile in melee. Just spec'ing for armored AC requires a lot of investment, a lot of sacrifices. There is going to be a wide gap between a not-as-specialized ThF fighter and a focused ThF barbarian. Fighters are currently stuck at a spot where they cannot get enough feats to be OK in two areas but have access to too few good feats to keep up with rangers and barbarians.

Secondly, even if fighters could spec for two fighting styles there are very little reward to being versatile in melee.

[Vorn]

There's two problem with that.

First, DDO requires too much specialization to be effective while being versatile in melee. Just spec'ing for armored AC requires a lot of investment, a lot of sacrifices. There is going to be a wide gap between a not-as-specialized ThF fighter and a focused ThF barbarian. Fighters are currently stuck at a spot where they cannot get enough feats to be OK in two areas but have access to too few good feats to keep up with rangers and barbarians.

Secondly, even if fighters could spec for two fighting styles there are very little reward to being versatile in melee.

I like being versatile in melee--it's fun to be able to change combat styles/tactics on the fly based upon the situation and team needs. Having all those feats makes that possilbe. 61 beholder-proof ac one moment (dang being chaotic good with no UMD:( or it would be 63), gtwf/powerattack/gws greensteal khopeshes with a haste boost the next, or whatever. Will the ac be as good a build devoted to ac? Nope. Will the DPS be as good as a build devoted to DPS? Nope. Will the initmidate be as good as someone who put all the AP's and feats into it? Nope. Can it accomodate a desire to be pretty good at quite a few things and be able to shift between them effectively depending upon the situation and the team needs? I think so.

I disagree with the premise that the game requires specialization for effectiveness. Think it does require specialization for efficiency, however that could be a whole thread in and of itself.

My take on fighters echoes an old Bob Heinlein quote that specialization is for insects.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because it's clear we have a different philosophy and play style--you probably play mostly in guild groups that have very well defined roles and great team work while I mostly pug--and you just never know what you're gonna get in a pug;). Hopefully the game can find a way to accomodate both your desire for specialiazation and my desire for verstatility in the fighter class.

Bah...now I gotta go to work!
Cheers!

[Angelus_dead]

I like being versatile in melee--it's fun to be able to change combat styles/tactics on the fly based upon the situation and team needs. Having all those feats makes that possilbe.
Sorry, wrong.

Fighters are less versatile than rangers. (Melee + range + magic)
Fighters are less versatile than paladins. (Melee + magic)
Fighters are less versatile than even barbarians. (Melee + survival + movement)

And don't even bring up rogues or casters...

Hypothetically if DDO had a lot more good combat feats, so that no one character could get close to everything he wanted, then Fighters would rank higher in versatility. But there aren't, so they don't.

[gfunk]

Sorry, wrong.

Fighters are less versatile than rangers. (Melee + range + magic)
Fighters are less versatile than paladins. (Melee + magic)
Fighters are less versatile than even barbarians. (Melee + survival + movement)

And don't even bring up rogues or casters...

Hypothetically if DDO had a lot more good combat feats, so that no one character could get close to everything he wanted, then Fighters would rank higher in versatility. But there aren't, so they don't.

When Vorn was talking about versatility I believe that he was describing a fighters capabilities (because of the large number of available feats) to effectively switch from S&B intim/tank to twf. As a fighter, you can max your blocking DR, intim, and TWF. No other pure class has the feats neccesary to do this.

And really, is it neccesary to belittle peoples opinions with comments like "sorry, wrong"?

[Borror0]

And really, is it neccesary to belittle peoples opinions with comments like "sorry, wrong"?
I think it's more people that should have better self-esteem if they feel attacked by a mere "wrong".

Of course he thinks his opinion is right and others are wrong. It's his opinion. If he would not think he is right, that wouldn't be his opinion!

[Vorn]

Yea!! I got a "wrong" from A_D!
:)

[MrCow]

And really, is it neccesary to belittle peoples opinions with comments like "sorry, wrong"?

Its just his posting style. Some people will take that piece worse than others (to the point where I will vouch that when I read it there is an invisible explaination point that pops up at the end of the word, as that is how I percieve it).

You can always ignore it or watch it get twisted by stating something factually right and something opinional (which he may see as wrong). ;)

[gfunk]

I think it's more people that should have better self-esteem if they feel attacked by a mere "wrong".

Of course he thinks his opinion is right and others are wrong. It's his opinion. If he would not think he is right, that wouldn't be his opinion!

well possibly, and I'm not trying to incite something. Not knowing AD, i assumed the "sorry wrong" comment was an attempt to tell the other poster their opinion was not valid. Personally I feel that "sorry, I disagree" is a bit better way to communicate than "sorry wrong" (which says to me that he felt the other posters opinion was wrong, which is clearly impossible).

But apologies from me for presuming... perceived forum incivility is one of my pet peeves today..

[Borror0]

Not knowing AD, i assumed the "sorry wrong" comment was an attempt to tell the other poster their opinion was not valid.
I don't know him personally, but I feel people always perceive him as ruder than he really is.

[rimble]

I don't know him personally, but I feel people always perceive him as ruder than he really is.

He's our Comic Book Guy.

[gfunk]

He's our Comic Book Guy.

lol... you just fixed everything for me by totally altering my perspective..

[sephiroth1084]

I probably should learn how to hot key better to make easier--analog man:o


Go get a decent gamepad. Clickable abilities become much easier to manage. Check this link if you want a starting point: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=153100

[query]

As a player of a tactical fighter (ironicly a dwarf named McHack'N Slash of course) I can vouch for you never know what's going to happen if you are thrust from your guild ino a pug or what happens in your guild when the role playing atmosphere makes one of the players say "oh i'm playing this character instead." The tactics mainly are melee based and involve things such as being able to cleave or trip or stun or intimidate or PA or CE or whirlwind or (even potentially) diplo, etc. The thing is, sometimes those big hunks of DPS have this little problem either being able to hit the enemy (or have no clue what do do with a moving one; this is where the ranged rangers shake their heads at the rest and fire off their manyshot improved rapid shot sniper enhanced crit at the fearsome fleeing enemy the turtle thought was a good idea.)

The tactical fighter can stun, trip, sunder and do many other things that not only makes the enemy hittable,but overall, deals less DAMAGE to the dps fighting force that gets the damage off of any 'normal" combat exchange.

And due to the high number of feats, the fighter doesn't have to focus on one thing (similar in a way like somebody with average to low int taking a splash of rogue and choosing skills from then on.) They can have improved sunder AND Whirlwind AND improved trip AND stunning blow, etc.

The catch as is for barbs is they have no self healing. And if also one were only to focus on the kill/dps, the adding of other classes does take feats away that have shown how they may be needed in the ftr L 20 endgame play.

So for now,people say it's worthless to play fighters without some multiclass, but it literally could be the reverse when new content comes out.

Sorta like those people asking why people DIDN'T go all paladin or monk in the future and did they REALLY not allow those classes in pick up groups.......

The ability or fault is all in the way you look at strengths and weaknesses. Resigning oneself that do x or it fails only fortifies this perception. Not all of us take low stats to prove a point either. But those who look at the ability of one thing (or attack method, or spell, etc) as a win or lose that gets threads like this.

Yeah, fighters currently do not have sustainable (non clicky or spell) higher DPS or AC than the beforementioned

So use the OTHER talents like their AC the barbarian often lacks and drains the cleric of mana most of the time, or that improved sunder,stunning blow,improved trip even monks don't always match (and have a less likely chance of hitting even when centered due to the fighter's enhancement line AND specialization group[s],) etc.


Finally,no example is set in stone and can find alternate results from the same questions asked. Good, now just start looking at different methods as well. Amazing but true, there are even more answers than what AD lists ;) [we love ya comic book man.]


Even this post is far from absolute even in its variety. Those specialized in wrongness finding and troll fighting will surely rip apart this completely ignoring the spirit of the post because wrong is so much juicer than that airy spirit thing :p

[dominp]

Every time one is given the opportunity to play DDO, he has to answer "Do I want to play? Will it be fun for me?" Obviously, most of us, if not all of us, agree that DDO is fun to play. There is all something in it that we, as players, enjoy. It varies from one to another, but all players enjoy DDO (with the possible exception of plat farmer).

Once one has answered the previous question, the question he has to answer next is "What character should I play?" because it's impossible to play DDO without a character (unless you enjoy to looking at the character selection or character generation UI). Since the question "What character should I play? has to be answered, there has to be a choice made. That choice will encompass both logical and emotional arguments, but in the end there will most likely be a justification to that choice (unless you rolled dices to make your choices).

Some of the most common arguments are:

I wanted something different than the characters I already had.
I wanted a [party function]and this is what best represents my preferences.
I wanted to try that build everyone else is talking about.
I looted [piece of loot] and I just had to build something around it.

The problem with fighters is that they fit in nowhere in this. Fighters barely represent something that the other class have to offer. They are not the best at any party function, no matter how you look at it. For example, rangers and barbarians both make solid two-weapon fighting characters. Which you prefer depends on what you like best. There are no argument you can make in this case to justify fighter. Then, I think it's safe to assume fighters are not really en vogue right now. And lastly, there are no gear, as far as I know, that would justify making a fighter over all of the nine other classes.

Fighters lack any incentive to be created and played and that is undesirable.

How about "I dont feel like I need to be the most Uberest Uber tank in my party to feel like my character matters"???

How about "I want to have a challenge when I play"????

How about "I could not give a rat's ass what is en vogue right now and Im going to make a character I want"???

I think its actually justified to drop you from group if you would ever admit you made a character cause its the en vogue thing to do.

[Tanka]

How about "I dont feel like I need to be the most Uberest Uber tank in my party to feel like my character matters"???
Some of us play that way. Please don't enforce your playstyle on others.


How about "I want to have a challenge when I play"????
So run VoD Elite during primetime lagtime.


How about "I could not give a rat's ass what is en vogue right now and Im going to make a character I want"???
What if the character he wants is something he knows is substandard and can't bring himself to play right now?

Seriously. If he doesn't want to play Fighters because Iron "Monks" can outdo him, why should he be convinced that he should play a Fighter? If he doesn't want to play Fighters because Barbarians outDPS him, why should he be convinced that he should play a Fighter?

[dominp]

Some of us play that way. Please don't enforce your playstyle on others.


So run VoD Elite during primetime lagtime.


What if the character he wants is something he knows is substandard and can't bring himself to play right now?

Seriously. If he doesn't want to play Fighters because Iron "Monks" can outdo him, why should he be convinced that he should play a Fighter? If he doesn't want to play Fighters because Barbarians outDPS him, why should he be convinced that he should play a Fighter?


You obviously are not familiar with this thread or the points made
so i wont enforce my thread reading skill on you.

but for those of us actually following along with the thread...yes its ok to not only create uber characters and we dont need them to enforce their playstyle on us.

[Tanka]

I don't think I have a rolleyes big enough for this entire thread.

[Cold_Stele]

Firstly @ Eyepuppy - thanks for having the conviction to back your comments with your DPS breakdown. People have already posted their opinion of your DPS compared to a Barb's so I won't labour the point.


Balance? why do they have to be balanced?


Um yeah you pretty much are.


so they are not as uber as you want...that must mean there is absolutely no reason at all to ever play a fighter again.

Why do the classes have to be balanced? You just flamed Tanka for not reading the thread - I suggest you do the same. They should be balanced because they were designed to be balanced. Look back at the numbers I posted proving this - in PnP DPS is almost identical.

Do you need me to explain that the enhancement system that unbalances them is nothing to do with PnP's creators? Do you need me to link you into the quotes where the devs admit they are overpowered and need to be addressed?


LOL i bet you are one of those people who tracks how many kills you get on each quest right??
"Oh no..somebody got 3 more kills then me on that last raid! I need to delete this toon and reroll now!!!"
And the fact that you even know that its 15% makes it more funny.
How about cause its fun to play??

oh no....cause of course this game is only fun if you have that extra 15% dps, forgot about that, sorry.

Wow, for someone who's open to playing a different style to many others (Permadeath) you appear to have a pretty narrow minded view of how the rest of the DDO community should play the game.

There are many ways that people derive 'fun' from playing - some like the social aspect, some like to explore, some like loot, some like build optimization, etc.

Just because someone takes a different way of deriving pleasure that doesn't mean that their (or your) way is any more or any less valid. I hate leveling, so I personally see no appeal whatsoever in permadeath - the last thing I would ever do is flame you for enjoying it though. Try a little tolerance huh?

Oh, and you're barking up the wrong tree accusing people here with a different view to yours of only wanting to play uber builds. I guarantee you that the people you're thinking of deleted their Ftrs and rolled TWF Dwarven Barbs and Rgrs a long time ago.

What we are instead are the last few fans of a dying class who want to see the devs make good on a promise they made restore balance to the game.

And lastly, for anyone who actually has the audacity to claim they've never seen a Barb/Rgr only LFM, here ya go...

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/408/screenshot00499yf1.th.jpg (http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot00499yf1.jpg)

[gfunk]

And lastly, for anyone who actually has the audacity to claim they've never seen a Barb/Rgr only LFM, here ya go...



agreed.. people who say there aren't lfm's excluding fighters either aren't looking at lfm's or their server has a totally different attitude. Of course, I still see lfm's that exclude rangers (for shroud no less.. lol), rogues, and pali's. Almost all melee types face some discrimination from the player base. Still, I do feel the rising tide of fighter descrimination.

And lest you think that everyone else on the forums is against some increase to fighter lovin', I will admit that I think fighters could use some tweaks from the dev's.. whether that is to DPS, AC, or some other useful tactic, I'm not sure, nor do I have a strong opinion on it. That said, I think where most people are disagreeing is on just how much additional dps a fighter should be granted.

I do feel a bit underpowered on my pure fighter (relative to TWF barbs and rangers), but due to continued gear upgrading I feel that the build has some things to contribute. I suppose one can take solice in the fact that with appropriate gear, you can still match/beat dps with many of the THF barb builds, and can certainly outkill them with a couple stat damagers or vorpals (if kill count turns your crank). (not to pick on THF'ers, but they do seem a bit underpowered at present... in general of course)

In the end, people who continue to play pure fighters are generally people who can accept not having the absolute pinnacle of build uberness... that honor can typically go to the multiclassers...until mod 9..;.maybe...

[Borror0]

How about "I dont feel like I need to be the most Uberest Uber tank in my party to feel like my character matters"???

How about "I want to have a challenge when I play"????
You don't need a class only for that purpose. You can make a character challenging to play with the existing classes. A 6 Con ranger would be a good example of this.

How about "I could not give a rat's ass what is en vogue right now and Im going to make a character I want"???
Then, for what reason would you prefer playing a fighter over the nine other classes?

[Emili]

You obviously are not familiar with this thread or the points made
so i wont enforce my thread reading skill on you.

but for those of us actually following along with the thread...yes its ok to not only create uber characters and we dont need them to enforce their playstyle on us.

How about this?....

The fighter is the ultimate fighting machine, able to wield all but those most exotic of weapons and armor. Their prowess in combat is unmatched and their wide selection of feats enables them to train in many fighting styles; the classic "sword and shield" style, the crushing assault of great axes or a style relying on finesse and a pair of fine swords.

This from the DDO compendium is taken near verbatum from the SRD and reflects what the DnD fighter actually is... however the DDO fighter covers only 1 of the three key points of that of the DnD counterpart. The fighter in DnD is exactly what is stated above, they are far more versitile there and can range from the epitome of the extreme to the more diverse... in DDO the boundaries are much smaller as they do not meet the extreme and of course being too diverse in DDO equates to rendering other parts near mudain.

To elaborate a tad on this thread... all which was said is that they expected a tad more love for the fighter class, as fighters as a class in general do not account for much in DDO since the purpose they are suppose to fullfill are better served by other classes which can expert within a certain area beit: dps, AC or Damage mitigation, plus they have no real side skills or mana unless splashed to add to the recipe. So then that said it's a fact that one plays thier fighter - just to play thier fighter - as bringing along thier <insert Ranger, Barb, or Pally> would be better attuned to accomplishing the quest both in play satisfaction and in resource.

Two years ago, DDO was overpopulated with fighters and pallys. back then it took a good player/builder to play a decent barb or ranger. they nerfed back melee in general then boosted up barb's and rangers via enhancements, etc... thus those classes became not more playable, but surpass the status quo. So I can pretty much understand where people will be disappointed, nothing really happened to a fighter in two years while other classes got new perks thus the 16th level fighter is a little less then par of what it was like back when level cap was 10 as far as play and feel goes by ratio.

That is not so hard to understand is it?

[Deadz]

How about this?....

The fighter is the ultimate fighting machine, able to wield all but those most exotic of weapons and armor. Their prowess in combat is unmatched and their wide selection of feats enables them to train in many fighting styles; the classic "sword and shield" style, the crushing assault of great axes or a style relying on finesse and a pair of fine swords.

This from the DDO compendium is taken near verbatum from the SRD and reflects what the DnD fighter actually is... however the DDO fighter covers only 1 of the three key points of that of the DnD counterpart. The fighter in DnD is exactly what is stated above, they are far more versitile there and can range from the epitome of the extreme to the more diverse... in DDO the boundaries are much smaller as they do not meet the extreme and of course being too diverse in DDO equates to rendering other parts near mudain.


Hey uh.. after reading that, why don't we ..uh.. give them exotic weapon proficiencies? At a certain lvl ofcourse, so people don't splash for that?

[Vuedoo]

My Opinion.Of the Problem with tanks in DDO…. Even from Original pencil and paper play. A Fighter and the neglected Pally's as Well Should Stand Out Above All (by a Longshot) when it comes to, being beat on, and being able to stand until the end of the battle. (the last man to fall) Which in My opinion is about HP, AC, and Saves.

High Lvl (12+) Content in the game .. none of this matters , a 60 ac is nothing anymore (Full Plate is a joke) compared to a ranger say with a good Dex. no punn intended And they have a higher Dps that helps save there ass Opposed to fighter/Pally. The Game has gone to Dps Being the New AC. The Only Place a fighter has Left is intimadating boss mobs While they Burn 3 Clerics otta Sp's and Letting the Rangers and Barbs etc. Get the Glory Of Beating the Boss Down.

A Start at fixing the Class is to make the 2 classes Stand out as the Juggernauts there intended to be. weather it be revamp the Armor and Tower Sheild to better fit there intended abilities, Adjust Hp's Tremendously to Componsate through Feats or whatever it Takes, Saves Should be Increased as Well even More for Pallys. Who’s to say that changing the rules is the wrong thing to do to DDO. Devs Sure Have Changed many a mob to make them more balanced in the game why not the fighter/ pally.

[Josh]

he's Our Comic Book Guy.

Qft

[Borror0]

A Fighter and the neglected Pally's as Well Should Stand Out Above All (by a Longshot) when it comes to, being beat on
Then there is no issue at all.

Fighters and paladins are really good when it comes to get their ass pwnd! Fighters even have Intimidate to get owned faster. :D