New form of Censorship?

[baddax]

Not long ago i was on a company blog board. The board was formed by ex-employees of the company i currently work for. The blog is mainy for people who are discussing/complaing about current company issues/ workinng conditions etc. etc. It is loosely moderated and nowhere as strict as far as rules and regulations as the ddo boards. It is also free. Having said that i recently had a situation where i had a post of mine edited presumambly by the board moderator. Now the edit was not for vulgarity or Rudness or anything like that but maybe more for content. Truth is not sure why. Now i complained about it but never recieved a reply by the moderator and i reposted the comments i made (as far is i could remember them).

Anyways i was recently in an off-topic thread on the DDO forums the other night. Well a day or so later i was going to search on it to see if anything was added or maybe just to pat myself on the back for my witty remarks. Well as far as i could tell the thread no longer exists or ever did for that matter. It was not closed etc. just vanished into the interent ether. Now maybe it is a software glitch, maybe or maybe it was deleted by a moderator. Doesnt really matter but it brings me to the point of this thread.

My question is, in this day and age of the internet/ blogosphere do we as american citizens have any rights as far as free speach (without disrespecting the rights of others)? It seems that blogs are becoming a more important facet of expression in todays computer age almost like the press was in the days of old, so i would hate to think that blogs/threads in general not necessarily DDO are being censored and edited because of on persons point of view or opinion is not popular or does not agree witha moderators opinion. Anyone besides me have any similar situations?

[Impaqt]

Not long ago i was on a company blog board. The board was formed by ex-employees of the company i currently work for. The blog is mainy for people who are discussing/complaing about current company issues/ workinng conditions etc. etc. It is loosely moderated and nowhere as strict as far as rules and regulations as the ddo boards. It is also free. Having said that i recently had a situation where i had a post of mine edited presumambly by the board moderator. Now the edit was not for vulgarity or Rudness or anything like that but maybe more for content. Truth is not sure why. Now i complained about it but never recieved a reply by the moderator and i reposted the comments i made (as far is i could remember them).

Anyways i was recently in an off-topic thread on the DDO forums the other night. Well a day or so later i was going to search on it to see if anything was added or maybe just to pat myself on the back for my witty remarks. Well as far as i could tell the thread no longer exists or ever did for that matter. It was not closed etc. just vanished into the interent ether. Now maybe it is a software glitch, maybe or maybe it was deleted by a moderator. Doesnt really matter but it brings me to the point of this thread.

My question is, in this day and age of the internet/ blogosphere do we as american citizens have any rights as far as free speach (without disrespecting the rights of others)? It seems that blogs are becoming a more important facet of expression in todays computer age almost like the press was in the days of old, so i would hate to think that blogs/threads in general not necessarily DDO are being censored and edited because of on persons point of view or opinion is not popular or does not agree witha moderators opinion. Anyone besides me have any similar situations?

You have every right to go start your own webpage and blog and post whatever you feel you need to post.

In the meantime, when you post on someone elese privately run and funded forum, you msut abide by their rules and moderation.

This is not new.

[Strakeln]

There's no such thing as free speech in a place where someone besides the constitution makes the rules. There are probably some total-free-speech forums out there, but they're likely far and few between (even the most liberal - in terms of rules, not political affiliation - forums have some limits, such as posting someone's personal information).

[baddax]

I guess maybe this is a personal awakening, as it never occured to me before that was the case. Maybe its just a case of me being naive and idealistic. However it gives me new awareness to interent communications in general. Maybe i just felt violated by having My thoughts and ideas edited and changed into someone elses thoughts and ideas. Also the post Still had my "name" on them and did not say edited and such.

[Kistilan]

Hey Baddax-

I know what thread you're talking about, and I threw a snowball that became an avalanche. What I posted took the entire thread down in literally 2 minutes. Someone got offended, but I didn't say anything purposefully mean or more-insulting than the flagarantly snotty responses being thrown in that thread -- especially about America's politics by non-americans (to clarify, USA politics).

I also did throw that snowball because the thread became something I didn't intend for it to be. I just wanted to state an opinion & let others state their opinions, but it became a political drama pile of dog excrement. Even when I stated time & again that I was only throwing an opinion out there, people had to say "Oh yeah that's because you're this and you have no intellect because of that." Things like that are just.... well, the entire thread became silly.

So I threw a snowball. Those that read the remark obviously were very upset because it came down in record time. However, I found it to be suprisingly witty, suprisingly american and suprisingly true. I guess that's why it hurt someone so much that they reported it -- truth is a powerful thing. :(

Aside: Personal Blogship is the best way to get the word out. There are too many people to use a company like a tool on a franchise forum.


Not long ago i was on a company blog board. The board was formed by ex-employees of the company i currently work for. The blog is mainy for people who are discussing/complaing about current company issues/ workinng conditions etc. etc. It is loosely moderated and nowhere as strict as far as rules and regulations as the ddo boards. It is also free. Having said that i recently had a situation where i had a post of mine edited presumambly by the board moderator. Now the edit was not for vulgarity or Rudness or anything like that but maybe more for content. Truth is not sure why. Now i complained about it but never recieved a reply by the moderator and i reposted the comments i made (as far is i could remember them).

Anyways i was recently in an off-topic thread on the DDO forums the other night. Well a day or so later i was going to search on it to see if anything was added or maybe just to pat myself on the back for my witty remarks. Well as far as i could tell the thread no longer exists or ever did for that matter. It was not closed etc. just vanished into the interent ether. Now maybe it is a software glitch, maybe or maybe it was deleted by a moderator. Doesnt really matter but it brings me to the point of this thread.

My question is, in this day and age of the internet/ blogosphere do we as american citizens have any rights as far as free speach (without disrespecting the rights of others)? It seems that blogs are becoming a more important facet of expression in todays computer age almost like the press was in the days of old, so i would hate to think that blogs/threads in general not necessarily DDO are being censored and edited because of on persons point of view or opinion is not popular or does not agree witha moderators opinion. Anyone besides me have any similar situations?

[baddax]

Whats next your going to tell me theres no Santa! Well im Not talkling anymore, i disillusioned atm.

[Kistilan]

Whats next your going to tell me theres no Santa! Well im Not talkling anymore, i disillusioned atm.

There are leprachauns. We have shenanigans on the forums all the time as proof. :rolleyes:

[Kreaper]

Yes, there are Leprechauns. But mostly there are Trolls. Every forum is infested with them! :D

[cdbd3rd]

Yup.

As was already mentioned, when on another man's turf, ya gotta play by his rules - and unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of unowned turf left any more. Even if you create your own page and begin blogging - if enough people complain to the ISP you run under, you'll still find yourself getting neutered. (Or could, theoretically. There are ISPs that really don't care what ya put on their bandwidth, but the gov't bigboys are on the hunt to clip them down, too.)

Our KC Star paper allows blogging under news stories it posts. Recently two offduty cops died. They were riding together at 1 AM, and lost control on a ramp. Passenger cop was thrown free and died at the scene. Driver cop was somehow allowed to leave the scene, went home and capped himself.
Blog started suggesting they must have been gay, and why wasn't passenger wearing seatbelt, etc. :rolleyes: Now I've seen some pretty intense insults on these bloggings, but suddenly this blog was getting clipped right and left like nobody's business. I chimed in and commented on the sudden arrival of the censorship demon - and got deleted. :confused: :eek:

Had to remind myself I was on their nickel, and walked away from it - but still was kinda souring.

:cool:

[flamberg]

Just try to blog on a political site and watch how fast you get censored. Freedom of speach is a thing of the past.

[branmakmuffin]

Hey Baddax-

I know what thread you're talking about, and I threw a snowball that became an avalanche. What I posted took the entire thread down in literally 2 minutes. Someone got offended, but I didn't say anything purposefully mean or more-insulting than the flagarantly snotty responses being thrown in that thread -- especially about America's politics by non-americans (to clarify, USA politics).
There's a big, fat disclaimer in this forum that forum rules apply.

[Missing_Minds]

Just try to blog on a political site and watch how fast you get censored. Freedom of speach is a thing of the past.

Their blog, their rules. Nothing new at all. You have the "right" to free speech in a public format. Blogs, unless you yourself owns it, are private not public forums of speech no matter how well known they may be. No infringements on your "rights" at all.

[baddax]

Their blog, their rules. Nothing new at all. You have the "right" to free speech in a public format. Blogs, unless you yourself owns it, are private not public forums of speech no matter how well known they may be. No infringements on your "rights" at all.


Where is this public format that you speak of ? It sounds like a wonderful place!
So Free speach, at least on the internet must be bought in the form of an ip address one person at a time?

[flamberg]

Yes their blogs there forums. Soon its thier street corners, thier parks. All I am saying is it gets sad a fundemnetal right is taken away from us everytime a site censorships us if you think thats right then all the men and women that died to give us this basic right has died in vain.:eek:

[Vardak]

Yes their blogs there forums. Soon its thier street corners, thier parks. All I am saying is it gets sad a fundemnetal right is taken away from us everytime a site censorships us if you think thats right then all the men and women that died to give us this basic right has died in vain.:eek:

Wow. No one, absolutely No one died to give you, me, or anyone else the right to yammer on in this private forum.

[Mockduck]

Here's the way I look at it (unpopular opinion, I know): We have freedom of speech and the press in the United States. The Internet is not the United States. It's a nebulous multicultural thing that sets its own rules and gives you spam. There are ways to say just about anything you want on it, provided you do the leg work to create your own web space. Otherwise, you play by the person's rules on the site you choose to be on.

[baddax]

i dont know, i just think back to the early days of the internet and it was more like the wild west. I just never thought about being censored. I guess it just really p'vd me to have my comments changed and modified and still have my "name" on them. I mean i was upset then and still get upset thinking about it.

You are right the internet is not the united states but i live and pay taxes in and am a citizen of the united states. Maybe thats why there was so little uproar when i believe Google agreed to the chinese govt's censorship rules and regulations, and many of the internet search engines agreed to hand over private data to the federal government, for our own safety of course.

You hear alot talk in the media about blogs and forums, almost like there is a fear of them. " You know these bloggers out there say this and they say that." But if in truth they are self censored i dont see the big deal. Communication has changed for the worse. Whenver i dont like what someone says i just delete it or change it to fit what i want them to say. or if i dont like a thread or discussion i just Flame it and get it delted or closed. I guess censorship moved from the hands of the government (in this case) to the hands of the individual.

[Kistilan]

There's a big, fat disclaimer in this forum that forum rules apply.

Keep trolling for new things to say to me.

In other words, I know. I don't know why you chimed in on this to quote me.

[Vardak]

i dont know, i just think back to the early days of the internet and it was more like the wild west. I just never thought about being censored. I guess it just really p'vd me to have my comments changed and modified and still have my "name" on them. I mean i was upset then and still get upset thinking about it.


Hmm, what exactly do you mean by your comments being changed and modified? Are we talking about the content filter for "naughty" words? Or did some mod actually take the time to edit your meaning?

Content filter gets a huge /shrug from me. Thoughtful editing a post by a mod would be another thing entirely. I would be upset as well. Delete a post or even a thread, its their ball and they can take it and go home any time they like.

[flamberg]

Wow. No one, absolutely No one died to give you, me, or anyone else the right to yammer on in this private forum.

Did not personally attack anyone in this forum. I didnt say anything wrong here.:eek: I just said our freedoms are going away if your ok with that then thats your place. My place is to say my thing when I feel its appropriate. Last time I looked freedom of speach is in the constitution. Plenty of people died for that beautiful document. This is coming from a vet. Yes this is a private forum and I haven't broken a single rule in it, I was making a comment. If you want censorship enjoy.

[branmakmuffin]

Keep trolling for new things to say to me.

In other words, I know. I don't know why you chimed in on this to quote me.
Because you apparently are surprised that forum rules apply in this particular forum.

[tharveysinjin]

Last time I looked freedom of speach is in the constitution. Plenty of people died for that beautiful document. This is coming from a vet. Yes this is a private forum and I haven't broken a single rule in it, I was making a comment. If you want censorship enjoy.

The Bill of Rights to the US Constitutions enumerates individual rights which you have and upon which the government is not supposed to infringe. The important clarification being that the board moderators are not members of the government, and, because they own the site, they have the right to remove content that they do not like. If they choose to do so, this is still not a violation of your constitutional rights because:
a. They are not the government
b. You ostensibly read the forum rules when you created an account, and you therefore ostensibly recognize that you agreed to the forum rules, where it explains that the moderators have the right, as representatives of the owner of the forum, to remove, edit, lock or otherwise modify posts that are made by you.

[vanderberg]

This thread is stupid. Here's an analogy for all your freedom of speech advocates on forums.

It's like I walk into your house and start yelling at you on how you're raising your children.

It's not my house but you think I still have the right because I have the freedom to speak?

Insane.

[Tarrant]

Hmm, what exactly do you mean by your comments being changed and modified? Are we talking about the content filter for "naughty" words? Or did some mod actually take the time to edit your meaning?

Content filter gets a huge /shrug from me. Thoughtful editing a post by a mod would be another thing entirely. I would be upset as well. Delete a post or even a thread, its their ball and they can take it and go home any time they like.

While we may remove certain words, or edit out an overly hostile tone, we will never change the meaning of a post.

[Kistilan]

Because you apparently are surprised that forum rules apply in this particular forum.

I think you're getting me confused with someone else - or just trying to type for type's sake. :rolleyes:

But hey, please feel free to PM me any time you think I don't understand something.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

I think you're getting me confused with someone else - or just trying to type for type's sake. :rolleyes:

But hey, please feel free to PM me any time you think I don't understand something.

How in the heck is my ignore button supposed to work when you people keep quoting him? Hmmmm?


As far as the original topic goes...

You only have to go dip into the 4-chan cesspool to see what unrestrained forums look like. Even though I may not always agree with the Turbine forum moderators, I like the fact that they exist.

[faldordadink]

this Thread Is Stupid. Here's An Analogy For All Your Freedom Of Speech Advocates On Forums.

It's Like I Walk Into Your House And Start Yelling At You On How You're Raising Your Children.

It's Not My House But You Think I Still Have The Right Because I Have The Freedom To Speak?

Insane.

Qft

[flamberg]

The Bill of Rights to the US Constitutions enumerates individual rights which you have and upon which the government is not supposed to infringe. The important clarification being that the board moderators are not members of the government, and, because they own the site, they have the right to remove content that they do not like. If they choose to do so, this is still not a violation of your constitutional rights because:
a. They are not the government
b. You ostensibly read the forum rules when you created an account, and you therefore ostensibly recognize that you agreed to the forum rules, where it explains that the moderators have the right, as representatives of the owner of the forum, to remove, edit, lock or otherwise modify posts that are made by you.

Never said anything about this forum and the moderators. I tow the line in here. Not saying that at all. This was started about another forum where a persons post was edited and modified. Yet his name was still on it. I had made a remark about political sites how your censored there. I dont care if someone censors what I put in here hey its a game. But if you sit there and are bashing a side dont care which side it is that other side has a right to defend itself. For the guy or gal that was saying about someone coming into my house yelling at me about how I am raising my kids. Yada yada yada well A)The government does it all the time. B) if your a private person you would be removed by force. If you think its ok that our rights are dwendling day by day hey your choice. I choose to fight for what little rights I have left. I was making a simple insight into it.

[TechNoFear]

Last time I looked freedom of speach is in the constitution. Plenty of people died for that beautiful document.

I think that you should realise that you are now living in the _world_, not the US.

Many people reading this may not have been on the US side of the confilcts you reference.

Many of us could care less about US rights, especially when the US often denies any/all rights to non US citizens.

[Vardak]

While we may remove certain words, or edit out an overly hostile tone, we will never change the meaning of a post.

Thank you for the clarification, I don't see much of a problem with that. I think it would be appropriate to make it reasonably obvious that a specific post had been edited.

[Vardak]

Did not personally attack anyone in this forum. I didnt say anything wrong here.:eek: I just said our freedoms are going away if your ok with that then thats your place. My place is to say my thing when I feel its appropriate. Last time I looked freedom of speach is in the constitution. Plenty of people died for that beautiful document. This is coming from a vet. Yes this is a private forum and I haven't broken a single rule in it, I was making a comment. If you want censorship enjoy.

I think I may have come across more harshly than intended, my apologies. What I'm trying to say here is that all of us need to better understand our freedoms before we attempt to exercise them. Your comment regarding people dying to protect our freedom is correct yet misapplied. I believe that such comments marginalize our service.

There are many subjects that we could talk about here that might result in our posts and threads being deleted. I very much doubt anyone has had a knock on their door by a representative of the US Government with questions regarding their comments here.

[baddax]

I think that you should realise that you are now living in the _world_, not the US.

Many people reading this may not have been on the US side of the confilcts you reference.

Many of us could care less about US rights, especially when the US often denies any/all rights to non US citizens.

While your opinions may not be uncommon i find them unfortunate. Yes i agree that we are all citizens of the world. Yes i also agree there has been some confusion in the debate as to specifics. so if i can clarify a few trhings.
1) The inital thread was about a few specific incidents in my personal experience on the internet. please read my initial post for specifics.
3) I am a citizen of the U.S. currently residing in the U.S. so what i say will be refrenced to those conditions.
4) Thank you for noting that others readers may not be as fortunate as some of us to enjoy the basic freedoms that we in the U.S. often take for granted.

I find your last comment about not caring about U.S. rights as a sad unfortunate reflection on the state of world affairs today. However seeing that your first statement noted we are all world citizens, i would think you would more reflect a world opinion of respect and understanding. Respect/understanding on an individual level, as we as americans may or may not agree with the current or past practices of our government on a variety of issues.

Lastly i guess that i myself am currently grapling with understanding how I right a message in my home in the US, post it on a board that may not be located in the US and then is accessed and read by a person on another computer who may or may not be in the us. So all 3 participants in this example could be in different countries bound under different speach laws and regulations and the implications of such. Then adding into the mix that the board has ownership rights to censor or not any given content is quite mess.

[Kistilan]

While your opinions may not be uncommon i find them unfortunate. Yes i agree that we are all citizens of the world. Yes i also agree there has been some confusion in the debate as to specifics. so if i can clarify a few trhings.
1) The inital thread was about a few specific incidents in my personal experience on the internet. please read my initial post for specifics.
3) I am a citizen of the U.S. currently residing in the U.S. so what i say will be refrenced to those conditions.
4) Thank you for noting that others readers may not be as fortunate as some of us to enjoy the basic freedoms that we in the U.S. often take for granted.

I find your last comment about not caring about U.S. rights as a sad unfortunate reflection on the state of world affairs today. However seeing that your first statement noted we are all world citizens, i would think you would more reflect a world opinion of respect and understanding. Respect/understanding on an individual level, as we as americans may or may not agree with the current or past practices of our government on a variety of issues.

Lastly i guess that i myself am currently grapling with understanding how I right a message in my home in the US, post it on a board that may not be located in the US and then is accessed and read by a person on another computer who may or may not be in the us. So all 3 participants in this example could be in different countries bound under different speach laws and regulations and the implications of such. Then adding into the mix that the board has ownership rights to censor or not any given content is quite mess.

*nods in agreement*

I could go on the whole "military service so we have freedom of speech" tirade, but won't. (I do this service for a lot of reasons, that's just one of the benefits for all US Citizens). It does make sense that this is Turbine's house, so their rules apply. However, it's fairly unrealistic to play in a "living, breathing fantasy world" where "politics can happen (http://www.mayorofstormreach.com)," yet the off-topic chat is barred from IRL (off-topic ie not DDO Fantasy world) politics. The sad thing about politics is it will innately create diversity and clashes, so the easier thing to do is bar said discussion. In that, it makes sense, or else we'd all have to suffer through countless threads of name-calling and moderation and infraction points.

That said, I still completely agree with your assessment of the world and free-speech over the Internet, baddax. The noble thing to do, is of course, turn the other cheek and walk away because we know we can PM things or have our own forums to discuss and persuade (or bicker and argue, as some prefer *L*) our values, opinions and prejudices.

PS: My ventrilo is always open to DDO players that aren't going to spam it! Link is on my myspace. You can chit chat there all day (it's static).

Caveat: If you're on my ignore list, don't come talk to me -- you can talk to the other people there though!

[Aranticus]

i'm not an American but i took American History in uni and have ever since been interested in the American ideals. freedom of speech, right to bear arms and many other Bill of Rights have constantly been abused by many people

the 1st Amendment is as follows


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

while in essence that the 1st Amendment promote freedom of speech, it does not guarantee freedom of speech. the 1st Amendment serves to protect an American who speaks up against the government. as specified in the Constitution, "Congress shall make no law...." specifically covers freedom of speech against rules and regulations passed by the Congress. this has however been applied to the other branches of powers. in cases of private institutions, the 1st Amendment holds little power unless the sancity of a person is violated

freedom of speech however does not encompass every aspect of "free speech". take this senario for example

A calls B a thief, B sues A citing libel. A cites freedom of speech in defence

should it be proven that B is indeed a thief, then freedom of speech applies. however, if B is innocent, then A has committed libel/slander. freedom of speech protects a person who speaks up against wrongful acts, it does not allow a person to have absolutely no inhibition in whatever he/she says