Balanceing Two-Handed Fighting.

[Impaqt]

Seems everyone is moving to Two Weapon Fighting nowadays to either DPS OR Stat Damage. It makes toal sense the way the Feats are Skewed twoard Two-Weapon Fighting. I dont know what Two-Handed Fighting feats are in Pnp. If there is such a thing, as they arent listed inthe SRD that I can find, but they could use a serious makeover to help rebalance DPS.

Currently all the Two Handed feats do is increase Glancing blows. GLancing blows are pretty much worthless in the is game. Trash mobs have so many hit points end game that Vorpaling and Stat damage are really the only way to go to make a dent. But Wait you say! The Glancing Blow hits your Main Target as wel!.. Big Whoop.... 5-10 extra points of damage against a 100k Hit point mob....... ANd it only hits on SOME attacks. Not all.....

I think these basic chages to Two Handed FIghting would Greatly improve its viability without pushing it ahead of Two Weapon Fighting.


Two-Handed FIihting: Adds Glancing Blows to EVERY attack.

Improved Two-Handed FIghting: Increase Glacing Blow Damage Plus Gives you a +1 Critical threat Multiplier to Two-Handed Weapons .

Greater Two-Handed Fighting: Increases Glancing Blow Damage Plus gives +1 Critical Threat Range To Two Handed Weapons.

(Range and Multiplier bonus' could be FLip Flopped I supose, I think the way I have it is logical though)

THis REALY gives barbarians incentive to use Two-Handed weapons without ****ing th ebalance of power all the way to the Two-Handed side of things.

[sephiroth1084]

There are no THF feats in PnP. That is something concocted by Turbine, maybe with WotC input. I don't know.

THF in PnP is generally better than TWF the majority of the time. Since that isn't the case here, what really needs to be done, I believe, is to add in a couple of prestige enhancements that emphasize THF that are available to Barbarians and fighters, and possibly Paladins and Bards.

Also, either allow Power Attack to go beyond -5 for +5/+10 or include an Improved Power Attack feat that does so. Or include an enhancement or feat that grants Great or Superior Power Attack (like that of the Frenzied Berserker), that will allow a THF to get x3 or x4 damage from the sacrificed attack bonus (-5 attack for +15 or +20 damage).

[tihocan]

Did anyone make a serious comparison between TWF and THF DPS? (on a single target to keep things simple)

[Tanka]

Did anyone make a serious comparison between TWF and THF DPS? (on a single target to keep things simple)
Generally speaking, the TWF will always outdamage the THF. 5 (THF) swings vs 7-10 (TWF) swings. More chances to proc various effects + both can use PA/Bloodstone to great effect.

[Impaqt]

Did anyone make a serious comparison between TWF and THF DPS? (on a single target to keep things simple)

You and I knw its not about DPS anymore. EVen if DPS is a little better across the attack chain It pales in comparison to 10 attacks vs. 5 attacks when your weiling VOrpals or Puncturers.
ANd in the cases when it IS about DPS (Red and Purple named) the DPS difference isnt significant enough.

[tihocan]

Generally speaking, the TWF will always outdamage the THF. 5 (THF) swings vs 7-10 (TWF) swings. More chances to proc various effects + both can use PA/Bloodstone to great effect.
But the THF gets double bonus from PA, 50% more str damage, both are factored into crits, and it has a +2 to-hit. And glancling blows. I wouldn't be surprised if it balanced the attack rate + effects proc (damage-wise)

[ArkoHighStar]

Also Glancing blows do a max 20 pts damage and never include extra effects, so they do very little to high levle mobs other than attract aggro if noody was beating on them in the first place

[tihocan]

You and I knw its not about DPS anymore. EVen if DPS is a little better across the attack chain It pales in comparison to 10 attacks vs. 5 attacks when your weiling VOrpals or Puncturers.
True, though it's not a 2:1 ratio. Anyway, I asked the question because there seems to be the idea now that TWF is better for DPS, so I was curious to know whether this was true or not (because I'm not convinced).

[llevenbaxx]

Im usually getting around 20-25pts on glancing blows, not that it makes a bit of difference with the hp totals, like you said.:rolleyes:

In PnP there are a few things to do that dont exist in DDO. Throw a nice high plus buckler on, oh no -1 to hit.:), for some added AC.

Also in PnP, you dont(at least I never) have seen weapons with so many mods, the actual damage from the attack often pales in comparison to the mods. More attacks/weapon mods over longer period takes the cake in longer combat.

Far fewer attacks in PnP, combined with respectably balanced monsters(far fewer hps), makes for THF str bonus(especially when paired with PA) more affective in the much shorter combat encounter.

**pet peeve** they slowwed down our THF attacks compared to S&B/TWF, more so for greatsword and Falchions. Dumb, no mechanical reason to do this.:mad: Game mechanics are more important than animations, there is more going on in combat than swinging madly, they balanced the weapon specs accordingly.

Simple fix. Weapon mods on Glancing Blows, this wouldnt be unbalanced based on the fact there arent more than 1-3 mobs being attacked at any given time(though i suppose this mechanic could potentially be exploited by big pulls). Theyve, imo, hobbled somewhat THF in this game. Some of it may have made limited sense at level cap 10, but its time to rethink and readjust THF for the current DDO.

[Turial]

.....

Two-Handed FIihting: Adds Glancing Blows to EVERY attack.

Improved Two-Handed FIghting: Increase Glacing Blow Damage Plus Gives you a +1 Critical threat Multiplier to Two-Handed Weapons .

Greater Two-Handed Fighting: Increases Glancing Blow Damage Plus gives +1 Critical Threat Range To Two Handed Weapons.

(Range and Multiplier bonus' could be FLip Flopped I supose, I think the way I have it is logical though)

THis REALY gives barbarians incentive to use Two-Handed weapons without ****ing th ebalance of power all the way to the Two-Handed side of things.

Seems nice. What do you think about letting glancing blows trigger the normal damage abilities like holy, and banes at a % rate based on which THF feats you have taken. I would think that if the % chance is correctly balanced it would be like getting multiple swings in each attack.

Example: You swing at a mob and get your prefix damage, base damage + all its mods, and your suffix damage. X% of the time if you got a glancing blow on the target that glancing blow would also get prefix and suffix damage in addition to just base damage.

[ArkoHighStar]

But the THF gets double bonus from PA, 50% more str damage, both are factored into crits, and it has a +2 to-hit. And glancling blows. I wouldn't be surprised if it balanced the attack rate + effects proc (damage-wise)

The problem is most THF wepaons that are of any use have very low crit ranges, whereas Khopeshes have a decent crit range and a great crit multiplier, and given the almost double attack rate you crit more often dual wielding khopeshes.

[Tanka]

But the THF gets double bonus from PA, 50% more str damage, both are factored into crits, and it has a +2 to-hit. And glancling blows. I wouldn't be surprised if it balanced the attack rate + effects proc (damage-wise)
So an extra 10 damage from PA. TWF gets all their effects from each weapon. The Glancing Blows are pitifully weak compared to TWF, it's not even worth comparing.

If a Barb has trouble hitting when Raged up, whether THF or TWF, you're doing it wrong.

[gfunk]

I really don't thing that the balance ot THF vs TWF is that all bad right now in terms of game mechanics... It's just a question of play style IMO.. For example, when you have a mixed group of TWF and THF, alot of that thf splash damage goes to waste when the twf beside you vorpals or w/p's the mob to death. In a pure group of THF, the splash damage would be quite complimentry...

Also, I get the sense that THF is better for holding agro on purple names (i.e. Sally) due to the greater damage per hit (rather than dps, though i'm not absolutely sure that is how agro generation works.. it just seems that THF's often do a better job of holding agro).

I think both these things make THF situational, but still useful. Also, another advantage of THF is the steady drop in AH prices of Two handed weapons. After all, both TWF of THF builds need decent weapons to be effective, and TWF is extremely expensive right now..

[Tanka]

Also, I get the sense that THF is better for holding agro on purple names (i.e. Sally) due to the greater damage per hit (rather than dps, though i'm not absolutely sure that is how agro generation works.. it just seems that THF's often do a better job of holding agro).
Incorrect. Aggro is total damage or Intimidate. Damage per hit only factors into total damage. I've seen TWF hold aggro far better, especially those with dual Mineral 2 or Lightning 2.

[Gol]

ANd in the cases when it IS about DPS (Red and Purple named) the DPS difference isnt significant enough.ROFL....

/spews diet coke out his nose...

So the time difference on taking down a portal with 10 barbarians is insignificantly different than 10 TWF Rangers with FE: construct? Riiiiiiight... :rolleyes:



Also, I get the sense that THF is better for holding agro on purple names (i.e. Sally) due to the greater damage per hit (rather than dps, though i'm not absolutely sure that is how agro generation works.. it just seems that THF's often do a better job of holding agro).
It seems that way because it's easier to build a THF spec for it. Max Str, use a big stick, done. A decent TWFer will pull Sally's agro from ANY THF Barb.

[Tanka]

ROFL....

/spews diet coke out his nose...

So the time difference on taking down a portal with 10 barbarians is insignificantly different than 10 TWF Rangers with FE: construct? Riiiiiiight... :rolleyes:
Because all TWF Rangers have 10 Str. :rolleyes:

[gfunk]

Incorrect. Aggro is total damage or Intimidate. Damage per hit only factors into total damage. I've seen TWF hold aggro far better, especially those with dual Mineral 2 or Lightning 2.

cool, thx for letting me know... must have been just that i've been running with gimped TWF'ers recently ;)...

[Impaqt]

Heres a Comparison tool I found for Online Manipulation... Make adjustments if You think I;m wrong somewhere...

Wenet with basic Holy Transmuting Greensteel Weapons. Great Axe Vs. a Pair of Kopeshes. Figured 60 swings a minute on both sides.. Probobly way off there..

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=Two-Handed+FIghting&1bab=16&1atktype=2h&1spm=60&1phd=3d6&1phed=2d6&1phth=5&1phthreat=20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=6&1phkeen=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=30&1dex=10&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&2label=Two+Weapon+FIghting&2bab=16&2atktype=dw&2spm=60&2phd=1d10&2phed=2d6&2phth=5&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=6&2phkeen=on&2ohd=1d10&2ohed=2d6&2ohth=5&2ohthreat=19-20%2Fx3&2ohxcrit=6&2ohkeen=on&2str=30&2dex=&22wpn=on&2imp2wpn=on&2gtr2wpn=on&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50

(WOW, Thats a GIANT Link... heres the Raw tool.. http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/ )

AS you can see. (Maybe) the Dual Kopeshes Crush the Great axe for DPS....

[Tanka]

cool, thx for letting me know... must have been just that i've been running with gimped TWF'ers recently ;)...
It's quite possible. Especially if it's a Finesse TWF (which a lot are). Find a good TWF Barb and you'll see.

[Impaqt]

ROFL....

/spews diet coke out his nose...

So the time difference on taking down a portal with 10 barbarians is insignificantly different than 10 TWF Rangers with FE: construct? Riiiiiiight... :rolleyes:



Roll your eyes all ya want Gol..... Your talking about ONE specific area and quest that MAY favor the Two Handed FIghting.. But when ya look at TWO Greater COnstruct banes instead of ONE Plus Favorite Enemy Enhancments, Plus there are LOTS of STR Rangers runnin around I wouldnt be surprised if the damage isnt a bit ahead on the Ranger still.
You cant Crit a Portal so you just Lost a Significant amout of TWO Handed damage there.

[Tanka]

Heres a Comparison tool I found for Online Manipulation... Make adjustments if You think I;m wrong somewhere...

Wenet with basic Holy Transmuting Greensteel Weapons. Great Axe Vs. a Pair of Kopeshes. Figured 60 swings a minute on both sides.. Probobly way off there..

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=Two-Handed+FIghting&1bab=16&1atktype=2h&1spm=60&1phd=3d6&1phed=2d6&1phth=5&1phthreat=20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=6&1phkeen=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=30&1dex=10&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&2label=Two+Weapon+FIghting&2bab=16&2atktype=dw&2spm=60&2phd=1d10&2phed=2d6&2phth=5&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=6&2phkeen=on&2ohd=1d10&2ohed=2d6&2ohth=5&2ohthreat=19-20%2Fx3&2ohxcrit=6&2ohkeen=on&2str=30&2dex=&22wpn=on&2imp2wpn=on&2gtr2wpn=on&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50

(WOW, Thats a GIANT Link... heres the Raw tool.. http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/ )

AS you can see. (Maybe) the Dual Kopeshes Crush the Great axe for DPS....
One thing to note is that's going to be for a Ranger. Barbs easily hit higher than 40+ Str while Raged up.

[tihocan]

Heres a Comparison tool I found for Online Manipulation... Make adjustments if You think I;m wrong somewhere...
I wouldn't trust Thott's tool for DDO damage comparison.

[ArkoHighStar]

Heres a Comparison tool I found for Online Manipulation... Make adjustments if You think I;m wrong somewhere...

Wenet with basic Holy Transmuting Greensteel Weapons. Great Axe Vs. a Pair of Kopeshes. Figured 60 swings a minute on both sides.. Probobly way off there..

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=Two-Handed+FIghting&1bab=16&1atktype=2h&1spm=60&1phd=3d6&1phed=2d6&1phth=5&1phthreat=20%2Fx2&1phxcrit=6&1phkeen=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=30&1dex=10&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&2label=Two+Weapon+FIghting&2bab=16&2atktype=dw&2spm=60&2phd=1d10&2phed=2d6&2phth=5&2phthreat=19-20%2Fx3&2phxcrit=6&2phkeen=on&2ohd=1d10&2ohed=2d6&2ohth=5&2ohthreat=19-20%2Fx3&2ohxcrit=6&2ohkeen=on&2str=30&2dex=&22wpn=on&2imp2wpn=on&2gtr2wpn=on&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50

(WOW, Thats a GIANT Link... heres the Raw tool.. http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/ )

AS you can see. (Maybe) the Dual Kopeshes Crush the Great axe for DPS....

the introduction of oversize TWF really put the nail in the coffin for THF as it allowed dual wielding khopeshes with effectively little to no penalty

[Impaqt]

I wouldn't trust Thott's tool for DDO damage comparison.
I've never been one to worry about DPS Calculations much... What do people think is the best tool to use? I have no problem pluggin numbers into any of em to see what we come up with.

[Tanka]

the introduction of oversize TWF really put the nail in the coffin for THF as it allowed dual wielding khopeshes with effectively little to no penalty
Eh, I don't see that Feat as being all that useful. Most raid parties bring along a Bard which successfully compensates for the -4 to-hit for wielding a medium weapon in the offhand.

[Impaqt]

One thing to note is that's going to be for a Ranger. Barbs easily hit higher than 40+ Str while Raged up.

Yeah, theres always going to be differences.. If ya Put the Two Handed up to 40Str he comes up 3-4 DPS Ahead of the TWF... But you could easily add more to the TWFer as well.. Fav enemy, Some sneak attack damage..... ANd of course, theres more to with enhancments and other feats....

Theres no exact sciene to this I dont think.....

[ArkoHighStar]

Eh, I don't see that Feat as being all that useful. Most raid parties bring along a Bard which successfully compensates for the -4 to-hit for wielding a medium weapon in the offhand.

It was just the final nail in the coffin, to an already imbalanced system

[Tanka]

Yeah, theres always going to be differences.. If ya Put the Two Handed up to 40Str he comes up 3-4 DPS Ahead of the TWF... But you could easily add more to the TWFer as well.. Fav enemy, Some sneak attack damage..... ANd of course, theres more to with enhancments and other feats....

Theres no exact sciene to this I dont think.....
Thott also doesn't have the added elemental/alignment damage effects calculated in, which is where a lot of the DPS difference comes from. Suddenly adding Holy/Shocking Burst/Shocking Blast to the weapons puts TWF way ahead of the curve. Having twice the attacks as THF will do that.

[Asirin]

/signed.
Two weapon fighting is really fun...but there's something (Freudian)about swinging REALLY big weapon :D
THF is in dire need of better feats.....

[Angelus_dead]

Seems everyone is moving to Two Weapon Fighting nowadays to either DPS OR Stat Damage. It makes toal sense the way the Feats are Skewed twoard Two-Weapon Fighting. I dont know what Two-Handed Fighting feats are in Pnp. If there is such a thing, as they arent listed inthe SRD that I can find, but they could use a serious makeover to help rebalance DPS.
In D&D, the THF feats are Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper.


I think these basic chages to Two Handed FIghting would Greatly improve its viability without pushing it ahead of Two Weapon Fighting.
It's rather premature to make suggestions along this line until we know what changes are coming in the next (two?) modules, as some of them (like Kensai) have been mentioned to be biased towards THF. Of course, that's a fighter enhancement so it won't help the issue of THF vs TWF barbarians...

One suggestion I made before is new magic item properties that are more powerful (maybe 50% more damage) when on a two-hand weapon. That would somewhat compensate for the fact that TWFs get twice the procs.

[Tanka]

It was just the final nail in the coffin, to an already imbalanced system
Really, the only classes that should be taking Oversized are 3/4 and 1/2 BAB classes. Any class with full BAB is going to be hitting on 2s with suitable gear (32 Str is commonplace, Bard songs are easy to come by especially if in a guild, Rage spell comes in pots, etc). A solidly-built and raided character will hit higher than that consistently with the right gear (Rangers can hit 30 + 2 Rage + 4 double Madstone + 2 Ram's Might = 38 Str. If they're feeling crazy they can get a Scourge Choker for another possible 6 Str.) and party buffs.

Rogues are really the only class that really need Oversized, and they're feat-starved as-is, so they may have to sacrifice some serious stuff to get it.

[Tanka]

One suggestion I made before is new magic item properties that are more powerful (maybe 50% more damage) when on a two-hand weapon. That would somewhat compensate for the fact that TWFs get twice the procs.
That's one way to do it. Another is adding back extra effects to glancing blows. They were in them for a few short weeks back in M4 as a bug, but the Devs decided that was too powerful. :rolleyes:

[Kaboth]

The problem is not with THF or TWF for that matter. The problem is this (and I am not blaming Turbine for this), but you add the fact players are creative and building splashes to maximize their AC and DPS output. You have tons of players right now that are slashing 2 to 3 levels of Pally, 6 levels of ranger, 2 levels of monk, 2 levels of fighter with various Multiclass builds. Finally, when you have level 12 to 16 players having their stqats in 30's or higher when in PnP you are lucky to be low to mid 20's makes a siognificant difference too.


In PnP, if you make a TWF, they are very DPS oriented, just like DDO. However, DDO's enhancers and variations on feats, etc... make TWF fighters AC the same or close to people that are wearing fullplate and using shields or very close to it. Where as in DD PnP, TWF AC's usually suffered because they were forced to wear light armor. Becase a lot of TWF have high dex and light armors are all but useless with exception to delving suit, so most TWF go robe and AB bracers or combinations theroff...

I think a great bonus to TTHF would be that weapon effects go off or atleast have a chance of going off with glancing blows. With possible exception to Disruptors, Smiters, Banishers and Vorpals.

[Borror0]

Two-Handed FIihting: Adds Glancing Blows to EVERY attack.

Improved Two-Handed FIghting: Increase Glacing Blow Damage Plus Gives you a +1 Critical threat Multiplier to Two-Handed Weapons .

Greater Two-Handed Fighting: Increases Glancing Blow Damage Plus gives +1 Critical Threat Range To Two Handed Weapons.
I always preferred more making damaging procs on glancing blows (Holy, Flaming, Pure Good, Greater Bane, Bursts (not the on-crit part though), etc.) or making damaging procs do 1.5 damage, rather than increasing the multiplier/threat range. Anyone calculated if this change would make any weapon significantly better than any others at DPS since we're playing with multipliers and threat ranges?

[Gol]

Roll your eyes all ya want Gol..... Your talking about ONE specific area and quest that MAY favor the Two Handed FIghting.. But when ya look at TWO Greater COnstruct banes instead of ONE Plus Favorite Enemy Enhancments, Plus there are LOTS of STR Rangers runnin around I wouldnt be surprised if the damage isnt a bit ahead on the Ranger still.
You cant Crit a Portal so you just Lost a Significant amout of TWO Handed damage there.
MAY? I'm taking the worst TWF scenario and saying it still blows THF out of the water. An str tempest ranger with dual GCBs and FE is doing roughly double the DPS of a 46 Str raged up Barbarian with an equivalent greataxe. YES, DOUBLE.

That seems (to me) to be about normal for red/purple names as long as the Ranger has them for a favored enemy. My assertion is that it's not even freakin close. The Str Ranger absolutely crushes a THF barbarian.

[eyepuppy]

Wow. I can't believe some people still think THF is anything close to TWF.

Look, I can crit for 200+ on my fighter build fully buffed with warchanter bard. Same buffs, I crit for 140+ on my khopeshes. Then add extra damage and you will see there is a massive difference between TWF and THF.

I like the idea of increasing the crit multiplier of THF attacks with feats. That will mean for much more damage and could even things out. I don't know what needs done, but here's how each setup should work:

TWF: Most attacks, moderate damage
THF: Most damage
S&B: Most AC, moderate damage

[Impaqt]

MAY? I'm taking the worst TWF scenario and saying it still blows THF out of the water. An str tempest ranger with dual GCBs and FE is doing roughly double the DPS of a 46 Str raged up Barbarian with an equivalent greataxe. YES, DOUBLE.

That seems (to me) to be about normal for red/purple names as long as the Ranger has them for a favored enemy. My assertion is that it's not even freakin close. The Str Ranger absolutely crushes a THF barbarian.

I took the Eye Rolling and tone of your post as you thought the Barbs were way outdpsing the Rangers on the portals Gol... Just a Misunderstanding....

[Gol]

I took the Eye Rolling and tone of your post as you thought the Barbs were way outdpsing the Rangers on the portals Gol... Just a Misunderstanding....
O... :o

[Cold_Stele]

some of them (like Kensai) have been mentioned to be biased towards THF.

That's a reeaaally bad misquote.

The thread went like this -

Dev - announces Kensai, PDK and (Dwarven) Defender.

Question - 'are any of these beneficial to THF'er's?'

Dev - 'I'd expect most of them to go Kensai.'

Nothing whatsoever about any kind of bias towards THF - the other two PrC's appear defensive, Kensai appears to be offensive, hence why THF (just like TWF) will choose it.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1854782&postcount=64

[Borror0]

I don't know what needs done, but here's how each setup should work:

TWF: Most attacks, moderate damage
THF: Most damage
S&B: Most AC, moderate damage
With TWF doing more DPS than S&B, right? (Just checking)

If that is the case, add moderate AC to TWF and that seems about right.

[petegunn]

Perhaps it would be better if the developers stopped creating this kind of content , were twf stat damagers rules the roost . The type of content in some peoples eyes that if you create anything but twf and sorcs you're gimped .

[Impaqt]

Perhaps it would be better if the developers stopped creating this kind of content , were twf stat damagers rules the roost . The type of content in some peoples eyes that if you create anything but twf and sorcs you're gimped .

The LAST thing this game needs is more needless random mob immunities.

Perhaps you think Mod 9 should be Attack of the Golems?

[BlackSteel]

if you dont stand still while attacking with THF the damage is actually very comparable (easily more on more than one target) what you do lose out on is the opportunity to use w/p weapons and about 30% less attacks when vorpaling or wounding

and if you're only hitting for 20 damage glancing blows then something is wrong, full feat line, and max str with greensteel, you should be around 30

working on a new mutt barbarian build for 85-100 base damage swings (around 160 max a swing if you count glancing blow and weapon procs) so I dont really find that THF is lacking in the damage department. But then again I have a WF addiction.

[Vorn]

The LAST thing this game needs is more needless random mob immunities.

Perhaps you think Mod 9 should be Attack of the Golems?

No, but perhaps they're using undead armies on Shavaroth (dracolich's lesser minions of undead evilness), or there's a taint of Shavaroth effect that dampens/prevents stat damaging, or yes, how about a mad army of gtwf golems wielding wop rapiers and banishing rapiers (<poof> back at the marketplace tent) attacking us! Muhahahaha!
:)
Sorry for the detour--long day at work.
:p
Hopefully Kensai gives THF some luv'n with more splash damage, some sort of alacrity, and/or crit enhancement.

[Aesop]

Just off the cuff and I haven't read anything but the OP really

NO two handed Fighting Feat: Glancing Blows on Attacks 1 3 and 5. Glancing Blow damage is raw weapon damage with an effective Strength of 10 (so just weapon damage)

Two Handed Fighting Feat: Glancing Blows on Attacks 1 3 and 5. Glancing Blow does full base damage including Strength and Power Attack (no weapon Effects)

Improved Two Handed Fighting Feat: Glancing Blows on Attack 1 3 and 5. Glancing Blows do Full Base Damage + elemental and damage effects (no Procs Stat damage or on Critical effects)


Greater Two Handed Fighting Feat: Glancing BLows on Attacks 1 3 and 5. Glancing Blows do FULL effects


probably too powerful but its a first thought

Aesop

[Xithos]

Roll your eyes all ya want Gol..... Your talking about ONE specific area and quest that MAY favor the Two Handed FIghting.. But when ya look at TWO Greater COnstruct banes instead of ONE Plus Favorite Enemy Enhancments, Plus there are LOTS of STR Rangers runnin around I wouldnt be surprised if the damage isnt a bit ahead on the Ranger still.
You cant Crit a Portal so you just Lost a Significant amout of TWO Handed damage there.

Might as well tack on Vicious to those Greater Construct Banes since you are talking theoretically. Gamepoint goes to the TWF; no reduction of damage in the offhand for that effect either.

[eyepuppy]

With TWF doing more DPS than S&B, right? (Just checking)

If that is the case, add moderate AC to TWF and that seems about right.


I should change that to low AC, moderate damage for TWF.

[Impaqt]

I should change that to low AC, moderate damage for TWF.

TWF, especially with a Monk SPlash, can get just as much AC as a S&B Build nowadays.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

The LAST thing this game needs is more needless random mob immunities.

Perhaps you think Mod 9 should be Attack of the Golems?

No, but lets get rid of the HP inflation. Putting in 8 gazillion HP is no more interesting or more challenging, it just forces vorpal/banisher/wp attacks as the method of choice. If HP was set so a good DPSer could take down those same mobs in 10-15 swings and an average DPSer could take them in 20 then it would create the balance between a vorpal and a DPS approach again.

[Tanka]

TWF, especially with a Monk SPlash, can get just as much AC as a S&B Build nowadays.
More, if built right.

[Borror0]

I should change that to low AC, moderate damage for TWF.

Low AC is confusing. Low AC may stand for 20 AC, which is like no AC at all.

[Spell]

I believe that THF weapons must be 'smart' weapons since that +2 Holy Greatsword of Flame Burst seems to know that it can only deal the bonus damage to 1 monster out of the 5 that surround me.
Glancing blows definitely need to include the bonus damage & effects.
We had a brief taste of this when Paralyzer's were first introduced. Groups loved it when the big bad Barbarian announced he had a Paralyzing Greataxe. With 1 swing he'd have half the mobs paralyzed that he intimidated. By the 3rd swing he had about all the mobs around him paralyzed and chopping thru them while the rest of the group picked off the stragglers. We cried when Turbine called it a bug and took it away.
This definitely needs to be reevaluated by the Devs.

[sirgog]

Just off the cuff and I haven't read anything but the OP really

NO two handed Fighting Feat: Glancing Blows on Attacks 1 3 and 5. Glancing Blow damage is raw weapon damage with an effective Strength of 10 (so just weapon damage)

Two Handed Fighting Feat: Glancing Blows on Attacks 1 3 and 5. Glancing Blow does full base damage including Strength and Power Attack (no weapon Effects)

Improved Two Handed Fighting Feat: Glancing Blows on Attack 1 3 and 5. Glancing Blows do Full Base Damage + elemental and damage effects (no Procs Stat damage or on Critical effects)


Greater Two Handed Fighting Feat: Glancing BLows on Attacks 1 3 and 5. Glancing Blows do FULL effects


probably too powerful but its a first thought

Aesop

I think these ideas are pretty reasonable but maybe a tad overpowered. Here's my suggestions:

No feats: As you have it (weapon damage only, no Str, no PA, no procs). Glancing blow attack rolls made with a -4 penalty.
One feat: Glancing blows on attacks 1, 3 and 5. Weapon damage, 0.5x Str bonus (not 1.5), no PA, no procs. Attack rolls made at -4. (These glancing blows are probably worth about 0.2 attacks each - that's a guess tho).
Two feats: Glancing blows on attacks 1, 3 and 5. Weapon damage, 0.5x Str bonus, no PA, half-strength procs (e.g. Holy deals 2d6/2 = 1d6 damage; Wounding deals 1/2 rounded down Con damage i.e. is useless, no procs that allow saves or Vorpal procs function). Attack rolls made without penalty. Intention - these attacks are worth 'about' 0.4 regular swings each.
Three feats: Glancing blows on attacks 1, 3 and 5. 1x Str bonus, no PA. Full procs, including stat damage, Vorpal et al. (This would allow TWF'ers to keep up with dual-Vorp or dual-Con damage wielders in killing through those methods). These are intended to be worth 'about' 0.6 attacks each.

[Turial]

I believe that THF weapons must be 'smart' weapons since that +2 Holy Greatsword of Flame Burst seems to know that it can only deal the bonus damage to 1 monster out of the 5 that surround me.
Glancing blows definitely need to include the bonus damage & effects.
We had a brief taste of this when Paralyzer's were first introduced. Groups loved it when the big bad Barbarian announced he had a Paralyzing Greataxe. With 1 swing he'd have half the mobs paralyzed that he intimidated. By the 3rd swing he had about all the mobs around him paralyzed and chopping thru them while the rest of the group picked off the stragglers. We cried when Turbine called it a bug and took it away.
This definitely needs to be reevaluated by the Devs.

Those were good days to have a two-handed weapon.

[Thrudh]

working on a new mutt barbarian build for 85-100 base damage swings (around 160 max a swing if you count glancing blow and weapon procs) so I dont really find that THF is lacking in the damage department. But then again I have a WF addiction.

How are you going to get 90+ BASE damage?

[tihocan]

I've never been one to worry about DPS Calculations much... What do people think is the best tool to use? I have no problem pluggin numbers into any of em to see what we come up with.
JJ has one that I never used but it should be more reliable for DDO. Although I have no idea if he plugged in attack speed for TWF.

[Borror0]

JJ has one that I never used but it should be more reliable for DDO. Although I have no idea if he plugged in attack speed for TWF.

Why is Thott's bad? He made a DDO specific one. (It's a serious question, never used it much.)

[tihocan]

Why is Thott's bad? He made a DDO specific one. (It's a serious question, never used it much.)
I only used it like 2 years ago so maybe it improved, but at that time it didn't take attack speed into account.

[Impaqt]

I only used it like 2 years ago so maybe it improved, but at that time it didn't take attack speed into account.


THere is a field for Swings per Minute.... and it does seem to efect the calculation. I have no idea what the Swings per minute for a Greataxe vs. Kopesh would be though.

[Jay203]

Just off the cuff and I haven't read anything but the OP really

NO two handed Fighting Feat: Glancing Blows on Attacks 1 3 and 5. Glancing Blow damage is raw weapon damage with an effective Strength of 10 (so just weapon damage)

Two Handed Fighting Feat: Glancing Blows on Attacks 1 3 and 5. Glancing Blow does full base damage including Strength and Power Attack (no weapon Effects)

Improved Two Handed Fighting Feat: Glancing Blows on Attack 1 3 and 5. Glancing Blows do Full Base Damage + elemental and damage effects (no Procs Stat damage or on Critical effects)


Greater Two Handed Fighting Feat: Glancing BLows on Attacks 1 3 and 5. Glancing Blows do FULL effects


probably too powerful but its a first thought

Aesop


nah~~ it's never too powerful until they realize they need to tone down on the amount of steroids they're feeding to the mobs ;)

[Borror0]

THere is a field for Swings per Minute.... and it does seem to efect the calculation. I have no idea what the Swings per minute for a Greataxe vs. Kopesh would be though.

JJ has that somewhere on the forums.

[tihocan]

THere is a field for Swings per Minute.... and it does seem to efect the calculation
True, I just looked more closely at that link. Looks like it's 60 in your calculations though, so it would need to be adjusted to reflect the true speeds (and know, I don't know them...)

[BlackSteel]

How are you going to get 90+ BASE damage?

combination of being WF, Barb rage, Rams might, and FE damage

[Impaqt]

combination of being WF, Barb rage, Rams might, and FE damage


Still doesnt add up. Please detail your plan.

[MrCow]

I have no idea what the Swings per minute for a Greataxe vs. Kopesh would be though.

The swings per minute depends on the BAB and weapon style. In this case for a BAB of 16 use 81 swings per minute on the Greataxe and 83 swings per minute for duel-wielding Khopesh.


Weapon BaB 0 BaB 1 BaB 2 BaB 3 BaB 4 BaB 5 BaB 6 BaB 7 BaB 8 BaB 9 BaB 10 BaB 11 BaB 12 BaB 13 BaB 14 BaB 15 BaB 16
One Handed Weapons 78 82 89 95 100 96 98 99 100 102 91 91 92 92 93 89 89

(Glancing Blows)
Quarterstaff 83 (0) 90 (0) 96 (0) 100 (0) 104 (0) 93 (31) 93 (31) 94 (31) 96 (32) 96 (32) 90 (22) 91 (23 / 45) 91 (23 / 45) 92 (23 / 45) 92 (23 / 45) 84 (33 / 50) 84 (33 / 50)
Maul 81 (81) 88 (44) 94 (47) 98 (49) 102 (52) 90 (30) 92 (31) 93 (31) 93 (31) 94 (32) 88 (22) 89 (23 / 45) 89 (23 / 45) 91 (23 / 45) 91 (23 / 45) 81 (33 / 49) 81 (33 / 49)
Greataxe 81 (81) 88 (44) 94 (47) 98 (49) 102 (52) 90 (30) 92 (31) 93 (31) 93 (31) 94 (32) 88 (22) 89 (23 / 45) 89 (23 / 45) 91 (23 / 45) 91 (23 / 45) 81 (33 / 49) 81 (33 / 49)

(Glancing Blows)
Falchion 60 (60) 75 (38) 80 (40) 83 (42) 86 (43) 82 (28) 83 (28) 84 (28) 85 (29) 86 (29) 83 (20) 83 (20 / 41) 83 (20 / 41) 84 (21 / 42) 84 (21 / 42) 76 (31 / 46) 76 (31 / 46)
Greatclub 60 (60) 75 (38) 80 (40) 83 (42) 86 (43) 82 (28) 83 (28) 84 (28) 85 (29) 86 (29) 83 (20) 83 (20 / 41) 83 (20 / 41) 84 (21 / 42) 84 (21 / 42) 76 (31 / 46) 76 (31 / 46)
Greatsword 60 (60) 75 (38) 80 (40) 83 (42) 86 (43) 82 (28) 83 (28) 84 (28) 85 (29) 86 (29) 83 (20) 83 (20 / 41) 83 (20 / 41) 84 (21 / 42) 84 (21 / 42) 76 (31 / 46) 76 (31 / 46)

(QD | RS / RS & QD)
Thrown 25 (31 / 36) 28 (34 / 38) 31 (36 / 41) 32 (38 / 44) 35 (41 / 44) 37 (41 / 47) 38 (44 / 48) 39 (44 / 48) 40 (46 / 51) 41 (47 / 51) 42 (48 / 51) 42 (48 / 55) 44 (48 / 56) 45 (51 / 56) 47 (53 / 56) 47 (54 / 56) 47 (54 / 56)

(RR | RS / RR & RS)
Crossbow 20 (25 / 30) 23 (28 / 33) 26 (31 / 36) 28 (33 / 38) 30 (35 / 40) 32 (37 / 42) 33 (38 / 42) 34 (39 / 44) 35 (40 / 44) 36 (41 / 46) 37 (42 / 46) 38 (43 / 47) 39 (44 / 48) 40 (45 / 49) 41 (46 / 50) 42 (47 / 51) 43 (48 / 52)
Repeater 20 (25 / 30) 60 (65 / 72) 60 (72 / 82) 66 (75 / 85) 66 (81 / 90) 75 (84/ 96) 77 (87 / 98) 78 (90 / 99) 81 (92 / 102) 84 (93 / 105) 86 (94 / 105) 87 (97 / 108) 90 (101 / 111) 93 (102 / 114) 96 (103 / 115) 99 (106 / 117) 101 (109 / 120)

(Rapid Shot)
Bow 25 (31) 28 (34) 31 (36) 32 (38) 34 (41) 36 (41) 38 (44) 38 (44) 39 (45) 41 (47) 41 (48) 42 (49) 44 (50) 45 (51) 47 (53) 47 (53) 47 (53)

TWF Main Hand 85 93 100 104 109 91 92 93 94 96 91 91 87 87 88 83 83

TWF Off Hand 42 46 50 52 54 30 31 31 31 32 22 22 21 21 22 33 33
ITWF Off Hand 61 62 62 64 46 46 44 44 44 50 50
GTWF Off Hand 91 87 87 88 83 83

[Impaqt]

The swings per minute depends on the BAB and weapon style. In this case for a BAB of 16 use 81 swings per minute on the Greataxe and 83 swings per minute for duel-wielding Khopesh.


Weapon BaB 0 BaB 1 BaB 2 BaB 3 BaB 4 BaB 5 BaB 6 BaB 7 BaB 8 BaB 9 BaB 10 BaB 11 BaB 12 BaB 13 BaB 14 BaB 15 BaB 16
One Handed Weapons 78 82 89 95 100 96 98 99 100 102 91 91 92 92 93 89 89

(Glancing Blows)
Quarterstaff 83 (0) 90 (0) 96 (0) 100 (0) 104 (0) 93 (31) 93 (31) 94 (31) 96 (32) 96 (32) 90 (22) 91 (23 / 45) 91 (23 / 45) 92 (23 / 45) 92 (23 / 45) 84 (33 / 50) 84 (33 / 50)
Maul 81 (81) 88 (44) 94 (47) 98 (49) 102 (52) 90 (30) 92 (31) 93 (31) 93 (31) 94 (32) 88 (22) 89 (23 / 45) 89 (23 / 45) 91 (23 / 45) 91 (23 / 45) 81 (33 / 49) 81 (33 / 49)
Greataxe 81 (81) 88 (44) 94 (47) 98 (49) 102 (52) 90 (30) 92 (31) 93 (31) 93 (31) 94 (32) 88 (22) 89 (23 / 45) 89 (23 / 45) 91 (23 / 45) 91 (23 / 45) 81 (33 / 49) 81 (33 / 49)

(Glancing Blows)
Falchion 60 (60) 75 (38) 80 (40) 83 (42) 86 (43) 82 (28) 83 (28) 84 (28) 85 (29) 86 (29) 83 (20) 83 (20 / 41) 83 (20 / 41) 84 (21 / 42) 84 (21 / 42) 76 (31 / 46) 76 (31 / 46)
Greatclub 60 (60) 75 (38) 80 (40) 83 (42) 86 (43) 82 (28) 83 (28) 84 (28) 85 (29) 86 (29) 83 (20) 83 (20 / 41) 83 (20 / 41) 84 (21 / 42) 84 (21 / 42) 76 (31 / 46) 76 (31 / 46)
Greatsword 60 (60) 75 (38) 80 (40) 83 (42) 86 (43) 82 (28) 83 (28) 84 (28) 85 (29) 86 (29) 83 (20) 83 (20 / 41) 83 (20 / 41) 84 (21 / 42) 84 (21 / 42) 76 (31 / 46) 76 (31 / 46)

(QD | RS / RS & QD)
Thrown 25 (31 / 36) 28 (34 / 38) 31 (36 / 41) 32 (38 / 44) 35 (41 / 44) 37 (41 / 47) 38 (44 / 48) 39 (44 / 48) 40 (46 / 51) 41 (47 / 51) 42 (48 / 51) 42 (48 / 55) 44 (48 / 56) 45 (51 / 56) 47 (53 / 56) 47 (54 / 56) 47 (54 / 56)

(RR | RS / RR & RS)
Crossbow 20 (25 / 30) 23 (28 / 33) 26 (31 / 36) 28 (33 / 38) 30 (35 / 40) 32 (37 / 42) 33 (38 / 42) 34 (39 / 44) 35 (40 / 44) 36 (41 / 46) 37 (42 / 46) 38 (43 / 47) 39 (44 / 48) 40 (45 / 49) 41 (46 / 50) 42 (47 / 51) 43 (48 / 52)
Repeater 20 (25 / 30) 60 (65 / 72) 60 (72 / 82) 66 (75 / 85) 66 (81 / 90) 75 (84/ 96) 77 (87 / 98) 78 (90 / 99) 81 (92 / 102) 84 (93 / 105) 86 (94 / 105) 87 (97 / 108) 90 (101 / 111) 93 (102 / 114) 96 (103 / 115) 99 (106 / 117) 101 (109 / 120)

(Rapid Shot)
Bow 25 (31) 28 (34) 31 (36) 32 (38) 34 (41) 36 (41) 38 (44) 38 (44) 39 (45) 41 (47) 41 (48) 42 (49) 44 (50) 45 (51) 47 (53) 47 (53) 47 (53)

TWF Main Hand 85 93 100 104 109 91 92 93 94 96 91 91 87 87 88 83 83

TWF Off Hand 42 46 50 52 54 30 31 31 31 32 22 22 21 21 22 33 33
ITWF Off Hand 61 62 62 64 46 46 44 44 44 50 50
GTWF Off Hand 91 87 87 88 83 83


81 for thge Greataxe is easy. For the Kopeshes. Is that 83 Per hand? Or do you have to half that for each hand?
Edit: nv,, looks like it is 83 per hand

[MrCow]

working on a new mutt barbarian build for 85-100 base damage swings

...

combination of being WF, Barb rage, Rams might, and FE damage

The best I can figure out is 77-92. It is highly situational and it requries other party members to aid you in raising it up there.

STR:
18 Base
+4 Level
+3 Tome
+3 Shroud STR
+1 Litany of the Dead
+2 Ram's Might
+9 Barbarian Mighty Rage with Power Rage III
+2 Madstone Boots, clickable effect
+2 Madstone Boots, on-hit effect
+2 Rage Spell
+8 Scourge Choker full effect

Total: 54 STR

Damage:
3d6 base (Greensteel Greataxe)
+22 (Power Attack [11])
+33 (54 STR on Two-Handed Weapon)
+6 (Favored Enemy from level 5 Ranger and Favored Enemy Attack II)
+1 (Prayer)
+1 (Ram's Might size bonus to damage @ level 5 ranger)
+8 (Warchanter max)

Total: 3d6 + 74 (77-92)


Edited based on Issip's corrections.

[Issip]

Also, I get the sense that THF is better for holding agro on purple names (i.e. Sally) due to the greater damage per hit (rather than dps, though i'm not absolutely sure that is how agro generation works.. it just seems that THF's often do a better job of holding agro).

I think both these things make THF situational, but still useful. Also, another advantage of THF is the steady drop in AH prices of Two handed weapons. After all, both TWF of THF builds need decent weapons to be effective, and TWF is extremely expensive right now..

I don't think THF has any advantage on holding aggro - it only matters how much damge you have done overall (not per attack) and any modifiers that would increase or decrease the hate you generate. The only advantage THF has in tanking Aeritrikos or Solumades is that you can actually hit them hard enough to break their concentration a lot more often, preventing some spells from being cast, which does actually help in those fights.

As far as weapon expense, have you seen the AH lately? You can get 2 good one handed weapons for less than a cleric will spend on a bad shroud run. If you want upgraded greensteel weapons it makes a difference, but not a whole lot.

Currently with two weapons you can do more damage, proc more effects, and have more armor class, all at the same time. In fact depending upon your class build and feats you can have more AC than sword and board. Since 2 weapon fighting leads to the best of all worlds it effectively obsoletes shields and 2 handed weapons in almost all cases.

The proper balance is:
2 Handed = Most damage, equal AC to 2 weapon, worse AC than Shield, fewer atttacks than 2 weapon
2 weapon = Most attacks, less damage than 2 handed, lower AC than Shield
Shield & 1 Hand = Highest AC, Less damage and fewer attacks

The current balance is:
2 weapon fighting = highest AC, Highest Damage, Highest # of Attacks
2 Handed fighting = lowest AC, less damage and fewer attacks than 2 Handed
Shield & 1 Hand = Almost as good AC as 2 weapons, least damage, least number of attacks

I'm assuming this will get rebalanced, otherwise 2 handed fighting and sword and board will completely disappear as they are obsolete. Everyone will be dual wielding dwarven axes with their strength based tempest dwarven ranger. At that point the game will loose all flavor.

[Issip]

The best I can figure out is 76-91. It is highly situational and it requries other party members to aid you in raising it up there.

STR:
18 Base
+4 Level
+3 Tome
+3 Shroud STR
+1 Litany of the Dead
+2 Ram's Might
+9 Barbarian Mighty Rage with Power Rage III
+2 Madstone Boots, clickable effect
+2 Madstone Boots, on-hit effect
+2 Rage Spell
+8 Scourge Choker full effect

Total: 54 STR

Damage:
3d6 base (Greensteel Greataxe)
+22 (Power Attack [11])
+33 (54 STR on Two-Handed Weapon)
+6 (Favored Enemy from level 5 Ranger and Favored Enemy Attack II)
+1 (Prayer)
+8 (Warchanter max)

Total: 3d6 + 73 (76-91)

You get +4 str from each madstone proc, not +2.

You also get +2 damage from Ram's might in addition to the +2 Str.

[MrCow]

You get +4 str from each madstone proc, not +2.

Isn't Madstone Rage +2 STR? I swore it was...


You also get +2 damage from Ram's might in addition to the +2 Str.

Thank you for catching that. I added +1 damage for Ram's Might being this build is likely an 11 Barbarian/5 Ranger. The way Ram's Might currently looks to work is +1 weapon damage per three caster levels, a minimum of +1, a maximum of 3 (so level 6 gives +2, level 9 gives +3).

[Impaqt]

Isn't Madstone Rage +2 STR? I swore it was...



Thank you for catching that. I added +1 damage for Ram's Might being this build is likely an 11 Barbarian/5 Ranger. The way Ram's Might currently looks to work is +1 weapon damage per three caster levels, a minimum of +1, a maximum of 3 (so level 6 gives +2, level 9 gives +3).


I've got to verify the Madstone effects myself. I coulda sworn they were +2/+2 but My Stats dont add up they way I expect on Pokah when Fully raged..

I think the On hit migh tbe different than the Clicky

[Borror0]

Madstone is +2 Str and +4 Con. Every procs.

[Turial]

The swings per minute depends on the BAB and weapon style. In this case for a BAB of 16 use 81 swings per minute on the Greataxe and 83 swings per minute for duel-wielding Khopesh.


Weapon BaB 0 BaB 1 BaB 2 BaB 3 BaB 4 BaB 5 BaB 6 BaB 7 BaB 8 BaB 9 BaB 10 BaB 11 BaB 12 BaB 13 BaB 14 BaB 15 BaB 16
One Handed Weapons 78 82 89 95 100 96 98 99 100 102 91 91 92 92 93 89 89

(Glancing Blows)
Quarterstaff 83 (0) 90 (0) 96 (0) 100 (0) 104 (0) 93 (31) 93 (31) 94 (31) 96 (32) 96 (32) 90 (22) 91 (23 / 45) 91 (23 / 45) 92 (23 / 45) 92 (23 / 45) 84 (33 / 50) 84 (33 / 50)
Maul 81 (81) 88 (44) 94 (47) 98 (49) 102 (52) 90 (30) 92 (31) 93 (31) 93 (31) 94 (32) 88 (22) 89 (23 / 45) 89 (23 / 45) 91 (23 / 45) 91 (23 / 45) 81 (33 / 49) 81 (33 / 49)
Greataxe 81 (81) 88 (44) 94 (47) 98 (49) 102 (52) 90 (30) 92 (31) 93 (31) 93 (31) 94 (32) 88 (22) 89 (23 / 45) 89 (23 / 45) 91 (23 / 45) 91 (23 / 45) 81 (33 / 49) 81 (33 / 49)

(Glancing Blows)
Falchion 60 (60) 75 (38) 80 (40) 83 (42) 86 (43) 82 (28) 83 (28) 84 (28) 85 (29) 86 (29) 83 (20) 83 (20 / 41) 83 (20 / 41) 84 (21 / 42) 84 (21 / 42) 76 (31 / 46) 76 (31 / 46)
Greatclub 60 (60) 75 (38) 80 (40) 83 (42) 86 (43) 82 (28) 83 (28) 84 (28) 85 (29) 86 (29) 83 (20) 83 (20 / 41) 83 (20 / 41) 84 (21 / 42) 84 (21 / 42) 76 (31 / 46) 76 (31 / 46)
Greatsword 60 (60) 75 (38) 80 (40) 83 (42) 86 (43) 82 (28) 83 (28) 84 (28) 85 (29) 86 (29) 83 (20) 83 (20 / 41) 83 (20 / 41) 84 (21 / 42) 84 (21 / 42) 76 (31 / 46) 76 (31 / 46)

(QD | RS / RS & QD)
Thrown 25 (31 / 36) 28 (34 / 38) 31 (36 / 41) 32 (38 / 44) 35 (41 / 44) 37 (41 / 47) 38 (44 / 48) 39 (44 / 48) 40 (46 / 51) 41 (47 / 51) 42 (48 / 51) 42 (48 / 55) 44 (48 / 56) 45 (51 / 56) 47 (53 / 56) 47 (54 / 56) 47 (54 / 56)

(RR | RS / RR & RS)
Crossbow 20 (25 / 30) 23 (28 / 33) 26 (31 / 36) 28 (33 / 38) 30 (35 / 40) 32 (37 / 42) 33 (38 / 42) 34 (39 / 44) 35 (40 / 44) 36 (41 / 46) 37 (42 / 46) 38 (43 / 47) 39 (44 / 48) 40 (45 / 49) 41 (46 / 50) 42 (47 / 51) 43 (48 / 52)
Repeater 20 (25 / 30) 60 (65 / 72) 60 (72 / 82) 66 (75 / 85) 66 (81 / 90) 75 (84/ 96) 77 (87 / 98) 78 (90 / 99) 81 (92 / 102) 84 (93 / 105) 86 (94 / 105) 87 (97 / 108) 90 (101 / 111) 93 (102 / 114) 96 (103 / 115) 99 (106 / 117) 101 (109 / 120)

(Rapid Shot)
Bow 25 (31) 28 (34) 31 (36) 32 (38) 34 (41) 36 (41) 38 (44) 38 (44) 39 (45) 41 (47) 41 (48) 42 (49) 44 (50) 45 (51) 47 (53) 47 (53) 47 (53)

TWF Main Hand 85 93 100 104 109 91 92 93 94 96 91 91 87 87 88 83 83

TWF Off Hand 42 46 50 52 54 30 31 31 31 32 22 22 21 21 22 33 33
ITWF Off Hand 61 62 62 64 46 46 44 44 44 50 50
GTWF Off Hand 91 87 87 88 83 83

Man its disturbing that crossbows and repeating crossbows are the only weapons that haven't capped out for number of attacks. Everything else has hit a plateau...sigh.

[Gennerik]

Assuming well-built characters and Oversized Two-weapon Fighting, I get this (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=THF&1bab=16&1atktype=2h&1spm=81&1phd=3d6&1phed=3d6&1phth=5&1phthreat=20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=2d10&1phkeen=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=42&1dex=10&12wpn=on&1imp2wpn=on&1gtr2wpn=on&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&2label=TWF&2bab=18&2atktype=dw&2spm=83&2phd=1d10&2phed=3d6&2phth=5&2phthreat=19%2Fx3&2phxcrit=2d10&2phkeen=on&2ohd=1d10&2ohed=3d6&2ohth=5&2ohthreat=19%2Fx3&2ohxcrit=2d10&2ohkeen=on&2str=32&2dex=&22wpn=on&2imp2wpn=on&2gtr2wpn=on&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50). Two-handed Fighting still has a little DPS advantage, but Two-weapon Fighting has the AC and ability damage, plus maybe Favored Enemy to offset the damage difference.

Personally, I'd like to see the weapon effects on glancing blows put back. Make that an effect of Greater Two-handed Fighting. Currently Two-weapon Fighting is too close to the king of DPS, and can be the king of ability damage and AC with some effort without sacrificing DPS. Each style should sacrifice something to get a benefit. Two-handed Fighting sacrifices AC for damage, and its not cool that some other Style makes every other style obsolete.

[Impaqt]

Assuming well-built characters and Oversized Two-weapon Fighting, I get this (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/analyze.php?1label=THF&1bab=16&1atktype=2h&1spm=81&1phd=3d6&1phed=3d6&1phth=5&1phthreat=20%2Fx3&1phxcrit=2d10&1phkeen=on&1ohd=1d4&1ohed=0&1ohth=0&1ohthreat=18-20%2Fx2&1ohxcrit=&1str=42&1dex=10&12wpn=on&1imp2wpn=on&1gtr2wpn=on&1pwr=on&1sneakpct=0&1sneakd=1d6&2label=TWF&2bab=18&2atktype=dw&2spm=83&2phd=1d10&2phed=3d6&2phth=5&2phthreat=19%2Fx3&2phxcrit=2d10&2phkeen=on&2ohd=1d10&2ohed=3d6&2ohth=5&2ohthreat=19%2Fx3&2ohxcrit=2d10&2ohkeen=on&2str=32&2dex=&22wpn=on&2imp2wpn=on&2gtr2wpn=on&2pwr=on&2sneakpct=&2sneakd=&report=on&minac=10&maxac=50). Two-handed Fighting still has a little DPS advantage, but Two-weapon Fighting has the AC and ability damage, plus maybe Favored Enemy to offset the damage difference.

Personally, I'd like to see the weapon effects on glancing blows put back. Make that an effect of Greater Two-handed Fighting. Currently Two-weapon Fighting is too close to the king of DPS, and can be the king of ability damage and AC with some effort without sacrificing DPS. Each style should sacrifice something to get a benefit. Two-handed Fighting sacrifices AC for damage, and its not cool that some other Style makes every other style obsolete.

Hmmm.. I just noticed that DPS Calculator is only showing an 8 Attack sequence for TWFing..... Thats bound to make a significant difference.

[QuantumFX]

I don't know what needs done, but here's how each setup should work:

TWF: Most attacks, moderate damage
THF: Most damage
S&B: Most AC, moderate damage

Actually a P&P game would work more like this:

TWF: Most damage per combat round on lower AC foes. AC equal to or greater than S&B fighters unless surprised. Best Touch AC available. S&B/TWF styles can creep into TWF. Very feat/attribute intensive. Limits weapon selection unless fighter.

THF: Most damage per combat round on higher AC foes. AC less than both S&B and TWF builds. Better touch AC than most S&B fighters. (Generally because of TWF/THF split and barb levels.) Gains versatility from adding TWF to build (Double Weapons.) Minimal feat investment.

S&B: Least damage per combat round but has same “to hit” chance as THF. Overall AC less than TWF. Highest surprise AC. Lowest Touch AC. Gains benefit from adding TWF to build (Improved Shield Bash/Improved Buckler Defense.) Moderate feat investment due to AC focus. Can gain total cover bonus when using tower shields.

[Aesop]

Damage
THF: Most Damage Per Hit
TWF: Most Swings per Round (generally use light weapons)
S&B: somewhere inbetween or comparable. higher damage weapons than TWF but smaller than THF. "Usually" a higher Strength than TWF. option for Shield Bashing


so really

Most to Least possible Swings TWF S&B THF
Most Damage per swing THF S&B TWF


AC
S&B high low Feat cost AC
TWF high high Feat cost AC
THF generally low AC

so generally speaking TWF can have the higher AC but it comes at a higher cost than S&B and THF is generally lower on that totem pole

touch AC is another ballgame... but even there there are options for S&B that would increase their Touch AC as well... though the Feat I'm thinking of comes from the Players Handbook II


where does Ranged fall in this

well they have the second most attacks generally have a lower Strength usually higher Touch ACs and lower end AC somewhere around the THF

beyond that benefit the Ranged combatant also has a double edged sword called Ammo. Ammo applies its effects to the Ranged Combatants attacks but those effects do no stack with their Weapon effects. So while an Archer may be firing a +5 Holy Longbow of Speed they also apply the Arrow's Axiomatic Flaming Burst of something or other (but not the +1 minimum base bonus as that overlaps with the bows +5). The other edge of that sword is the limited Ammunition. While you can swing a sword til your arm falls off you can only shoot til you run out of ammo

Unfortuanately a lot of the Ranged benefit is missing from the game.

Aesop

[BlackSteel]

The best I can figure out is 77-92. It is highly situational and it requries other party members to aid you in raising it up there.

STR:
18 Base
+4 Level
+3 Tome
+3 Shroud STR
+1 Litany of the Dead
+2 Ram's Might
+9 Barbarian Mighty Rage with Power Rage III
+2 Madstone Boots, clickable effect
+2 Madstone Boots, on-hit effect
+2 Rage Spell
+8 Scourge Choker full effect

Total: 54 STR

Damage:
3d6 base (Greensteel Greataxe)
+22 (Power Attack [11])
+33 (54 STR on Two-Handed Weapon)
+6 (Favored Enemy from level 5 Ranger and Favored Enemy Attack II)
+1 (Prayer)
+1 (Ram's Might size bonus to damage @ level 5 ranger)
+8 (Warchanter max)

Total: 3d6 + 74 (77-92)


Edited based on Issip's corrections.

close but you forgot a few things
+5 enhancement from weapon (3d6 +5)
tharnes goggles for when theres another tank or for crazy spinning raid boss aggro
+5 damage boost (essentially replaces the choker)
and you missed the regular +6 str item ^^

think its 87-102 without choker, the litany, shroud str, or heros companion; or another way to look at is its just +8/9 damage (+3 more damage on glancing blows) over a pure barb build, but at the loss of crit rage 2

[Gol]

Damage
THF: Most Damage Per Hit
TWF: Most Swings per Round (generally use light weapons)
S&B: somewhere inbetween or comparable. higher damage weapons than TWF but smaller than THF. "Usually" a higher Strength than TWF. option for Shield BashingA Str-based Ranger vs his FE is significantly ahead of a S&B Fighter. 10 damage from FE, higher attack at that, and +3 more from Ram's might.

And there's a ton of dual Khopesh wielding Str-based Rangers on my server.

[toughguyjoe]

Oh so now its "Gols Server"



:P

[Cold_Stele]

Personally, I'd like to see the weapon effects on glancing blows put back.

What about the poor old SOS though?

I agree THF needs some love but weapon effects on glancing blows won't help it. It's sad that the weapon we all spent months (or years) grinding for just sits in the bank now...

[Aesop]

A Str-based Ranger vs his FE is significantly ahead of a S&B Fighter. 10 damage from FE, higher attack at that, and +3 more from Ram's might.

And there's a ton of dual Khopesh wielding Str-based Rangers on my server.

Gol this was based on PnP not DDO (I was refering to Quantum's post above mine)and on a "typical build" not a hyper specialized one. In PnP you wouldn't have a +10 vrs all the bad guys you typically fight... unless you're dating your DM

Also in PnP there are other typical controls that help balance out the styles which don't exist in an MMO

Aesop

[Aesop]

What about the poor old SOS though?

I agree THF needs some love but weapon effects on glancing blows won't help it. It's sad that the weapon we all spent months (or years) grinding for just sits in the bank now...

Allow Critical Hits on Glancing Blows as well then

[Tanka]

What about the poor old SOS though?

I agree THF needs some love but weapon effects on glancing blows won't help it. It's sad that the weapon we all spent months (or years) grinding for just sits in the bank now...
You mean the same way people constantly regear around raid loot? How people grinded so long and hard for Chaosgardes and now they use the Leviks set instead?

Welcome to the world of raiding. New raids come out, new gear replaces old, people grind all over again for another set.

[Gennerik]

Allow Critical Hits on Glancing Blows as well then

I think the only way I could realistically see this is if you do this through feats. In the same way that Greater Two-handed Fighting could add to...

Scratch that. Perhaps you could make it so that Cleave and Great Cleave actually add those effects to glancing blows, showing that you've managed to turn your normal glancing blows into actual refined hits.

Cleave
Activate this ability to attack one or more enemies in a 180 degree arc in front of you. Additionally, any glancing blows from a two-handed weapon have their on-hit effects applied. On-critical hit effects are not applied.

Great Cleave
Activate this ability to attack one or more enemies in a 270 degree arce in front of you. Additionally, any glancing blows can now apply on-critical hit effects if a critial hit is scored on by a glancing blow.

I might see that as a way to apply the effects of normal hits and critical hits to glancing blows without just given them for free. I think that would put two-handed weapons back in front on DPS, and possibly make them a little less behind when it comes to weapon effects (ability damage, etc)

[Borror0]

How people grinded so long and hard for Chaosgardes and now they use the Leviks set instead?.

What?! People use Levik's?! I wouldn't...

[Borror0]

Allow Critical Hits on Glancing Blows as well then

As Tanka said, it's normal for a weapon to weaken with time. Besides, are we worried about nerfing the SoS?! C'mon...

I really don't think it would be wise to allow crits on glancing blows.

[tihocan]

The swings per minute depends on the BAB and weapon style. In this case for a BAB of 16 use 81 swings per minute on the Greataxe and 83 swings per minute for duel-wielding Khopesh.
So TWF is actually swinging faster? And I was sure it was slower :confused:

[Gennerik]

I really don't think it would be wise to allow crits on glancing blows.

I really don't see the problem, especially if it takes up another two feats (Cleave and Great Cleave) to get (even if they might be close to automatic feats to select). It becomes more effective as you get surrounded more, but taking on things that have thousands of HP, Two-handed Fighters need something to boost their DPS so that it becomes viable versus ability damaging Two-weapon Fighters. This would address that without resorting to enhancments, and kind of make sense for how the feats are described.

[Murderface]

why thats easy enough
first off make it swing as fast as a one hander and all two handers at the same speed

secondly make bucklers work how there supposed to work that u can use a buckler and use a sos ga w.e

thirdly were missing quite a few two handers why not make a scyth version of deathnip

put in the other good prestige classes for fighters and barbs not just rangers prc(every mod has had ranger love) ex
and im not talking purple dragon or defender im talking frenzied bezerker and weapons master

next watch the rangers cry as they get pwnd by my fighter/weapons master/frenzied bezerkers with my crit augmented scythe 1d8 x4 19-20
with weapons master that goes 1d8 x5 15-20
and of course bezerker add +10 to power attack which in this game done proper is about 400 damage per crit w/bloodstone. add +7ac from a buckler with ac rituals. yes it would be balanced

but they wont because they cater to rangers because rangers always have to have 2 or 3 accounts with about 8 rangers since they keep enhancing them every dang mod

[Borror0]

I really don't see the problem
It easier to balance if you don't factor the crits on the glancing blows. If you want to improve the overall DPS of glancing blows, there are other means.

An increased critical range on a weapon is already powerful enough like this, no real need to add more IMO.

[MrCow]

I wonder if critical failures would be an interesting way to slightly detract from the two-weapon fighting craze... :D

*Accidentally dual-gouges one-self with wounding rapiers of puncturing*

[Impaqt]

close but you forgot a few things
+5 enhancement from weapon (3d6 +5)
tharnes goggles for when theres another tank or for crazy spinning raid boss aggro
+5 damage boost (essentially replaces the choker)
and you missed the regular +6 str item ^^

think its 87-102 without choker, the litany, shroud str, or heros companion; or another way to look at is its just +8/9 damage (+3 more damage on glancing blows) over a pure barb build, but at the loss of crit rage 2
OK, Thats great.. Proble is that theres no reason a TWF Barbarian cant get every single one of those exact same bonus.. TImes 2......

(Well, Except for the 1.5x Str Damage Bonus)
FOr the record, I'd hardly call Counting all those Bonus's = "Base Damage" but since mostof em add tothe first damage number I can kinda understand.

[Murderface]

the only thing they need to do is make the two handed wpn speed the same as one handed wpn speed
since round time never changes the two should be the same speed

and thats it stupid two handers swing so slowwwwwwwwww
but its better then using a sword and board
and its only really worth having two wpns on a rogue, ranger or bard since there damage is applied equally to both hand rather then half damage in the offhand like fighters barbs etc


on another note has anyone seen past 33 damage for glancing blows?

[BlackSteel]

OK, Thats great.. Proble is that theres no reason a TWF Barbarian cant get every single one of those exact same bonus.. TImes 2......

(Well, Except for the 1.5x Str Damage Bonus)
FOr the record, I'd hardly call Counting all those Bonus's = "Base Damage" but since mostof em add tothe first damage number I can kinda understand.

thats true enough altho I'll still debate the times 2 factor (or maybe I underestimate the number of THF'ers that like to stand still). Only reason I was building the mutt barb is because I wanted to break 100 base on a single swing ^^, cant do that twf, as base will be +21-33 more a hit from str and PA, and an extra d6 from the weapon itself. Additionally you could tack on the 38-40 points of glancing blow damage, and add the effect damage and you've got urself 150-160 non crit swing.

As to the main topic, a way to add additionally dps that would make the two fighting styles more comparable would be to have glancing blows on all of the attacks in the animation, with a simple stipulation. The vertical swings which dont currently get a glancing blow, only get a glancing on the main target. This would equate to the THF line giving a static 40% increase to damage all the time, increases with additional targets, but would be a minimum of 40% with only one target. Not that drastic when you consider that the TWF feats are close to a 90% increase.

But frankly I've never found the line to be liking in the damage department, what hurts is the lack of a good weapon type to apply on crit effects, the slow falchion is the only real option, and that only comes in the flavor of smiting, not to mention being about 20% slower. Stat damage with the fighting style is practically useless, as 1 con damage a swing (no puncturing Two handers) doesnt equate to what most THF'ers should be able to do with their main weapon. And altho the THF can contribute in the luck game of vorpaling, theres an inherent 40% less chance simply from number of swings. But frankly thats how it should be, as thats the entire appeal of TWF, the increase in number of attacks. Thus any on hit or on crit attack works better with more attacks, but adding crit effects to glancing blows is not the way to fix this, a lucky 20 clearing a room full of mobs is in no way balanced. On hit effects would actually be a rather hefty increase as well, considering the number of effects available on greensteel. Thats 3d6 more on each glancing blow, a 50% increase for some, and a 30% increase GB damage for others. And introducing that any where before lvl cap would essentially break the game. I remember leveling my first 32 point barb when this was briefly broken on the live servers. Having an extra 2d6 on glancing blows at lvl 8 was disgusting, as with ITHF that essentialy doubles your GB's at that lvl. And allowing stat damage to be conveyed over would also be broken, even if it is just wounding, a w/p rapier averages 2 con, a vanilla wounding greataxe would be doing 2 con to main target + 1 con to EVERY surrounding foe on a majority of attacks.

[BlackSteel]

on another note has anyone seen past 33 damage for glancing blows?

I've seen 35 on my pure barb, expecting 38-40 on my new one; but I wont be able to be certain on this till he's lvl'ed and geared. Just hit 13 and got flagged for shroud.

[Gennerik]

It easier to balance if you don't factor the crits on the glancing blows. If you want to improve the overall DPS of glancing blows, there are other means.

An increased critical range on a weapon is already powerful enough like this, no real need to add more IMO.

It's not that hard. A simple sampling of the damage output on a given AC is all that's required. If you take a large number of samples (no more than 10000), your average damage should only change by about 5%, which is hardly a large variance when it comes to balancing a monster's statistics.

Borror0, you are correct, there are other means, but most of those other means either require developing new feats or enhancements. I'm not against that, either, or making players choose on how they want to develop their characters, but I can see it fitting the two feats I've suggested already (at least how they are implemented in DDO). Glancing blows were much more important back when monsters only had 300-400 HP. Now that they have suddenly jumped to 1000-2000 HP, dealing 40-60 damage with every full swing animation sequence to surrounding monsters isn't that helpful. That's especially true when some Two-weapon Fighter is sitting next you you dealing an average of 10-12 Con damage per attack sequence.

If you're really worried about critical glancing blows, you could also make it so that the critical hit only happens on an unmodified weapon critical range, so Improved Critical, Critical Rage, and Keen won't come into play, kind of leveling the playing field of Two-handed Fighting Barbarians, Fighters, and Paladins.

[Tanka]

What?! People use Levik's?! I wouldn't...
Not every Intimitank rolled Lawful. If I still played Honos as anything other than a Reaver-moocher, I'd regear him for S&B with the Levik's set.


As Tanka said, it's normal for a weapon to weaken with time. Besides, are we worried about nerfing the SoS?! C'mon...

I really don't think it would be wise to allow crits on glancing blows.
It's the nature of an MMO for gear to "degrade" over time. If it didn't happen, players would find a completion point for a character and never play them again, maybe even delete them once they hit the maximum character slots. It's natural to consistently replace gear.

[osirisisis]

I would change Two handed fighting so that glancing blows work on all swings if the mobs were a certain distance apart

I would ADD that all effect would work with glacing blow so that if 6 mobs were close enuff to each other and U rolled 20 U would get a roll on each glace and if by some merical U roll 5 20's one for each glance U would vorpal all 6 at once. This would make facons worth something.

I would ad the spear 1/d10 crit range 19-20 pericing so two handed fighting would have a w/p weapon, so that each glace would reroll to comfirm a hit for wounding and reroll each hit to comifirm a crit for puncturing.

Some might say this would be to powerful but how offtin do U really get mobs close enuff to glance now days plus theres rerolls for every glance effect...

As it stands now TWF is over 200% more effect effishent if spected right with 2 handed weapon having no wounding of puncturing (by far the most effective in the game) and to add: a well spected might be more effective in over all DPS with to mineral 2 khopeshes vs the mineral 2 great axe.

[Cold_Stele]

It's the nature of an MMO for gear to "degrade" over time.

Meh, none of you have got souls ;)

SOS was the Anduril/Excalibur/Stormbringer of DDO, I miss it :(

As for Lorriks bracers, yeh I just wear em whilst TWF or at times when I have to wear Bramblecasters instead of Str gloves, such as Hound.

[QuantumFX]

I wonder if critical failures would be an interesting way to slightly detract from the two-weapon fighting craze... :D

*Accidentally dual-gouges one-self with wounding rapiers of puncturing*

Cause then the game would turn into THIS! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmzWd0eik44&feature=related)

[Tanka]

Meh, none of you have got souls ;)

SOS was the Anduril/Excalibur/Stormbringer of DDO, I miss it :(
Meh. It only bypasses DR/adamantine (which doesn't include Clay Golems, because it has to bypass DR/adamantine + DR/bludgeoning). Sure it includes all the best features of a greataxe, greatsword and falchion (sans swing speed and synergy with Dwarven Axe Enhancements), but its DPS is so low compared to any +5 Elemental of PG weapon you can find, let alone a fully upgraded greensteel weapon.

SOS is old hat. Good back in M4, barely passable now.

[Borror0]

It's not that hard. A simple sampling of the damage output on a given AC is all that's required. If you take a large number of samples (no more than 10000), your average damage should only change by about 5%, which is hardly a large variance when it comes to balancing a monster's statistics.
Are you telling me that critical hits have only a 5% impact?! That's incredibly inaccurate, I hope I'm getting you wrong.

Borror0, you are correct, there are other means, but most of those other means either require developing new feats or enhancements.
No. they only require modifying glancing blows...

Glancing blows were much more important back when monsters only had 300-400 HP. Now that they have suddenly jumped to 1000-2000 HP, dealing 40-60 damage with every full swing animation sequence to surrounding monsters isn't that helpful. That's especially true when some Two-weapon Fighter is sitting next you you dealing an average of 10-12 Con damage per attack sequence.
But that should be solve by nerfing the HP... don't you think?

If you're really worried about critical glancing blows, you could also make it so that the critical hit only happens on an unmodified weapon critical range, so Improved Critical, Critical Rage, and Keen won't come into play, kind of leveling the playing field of Two-handed Fighting Barbarians, Fighters, and Paladins.
That's inelegant, too complicated for nothing and also ignores class abilities and feats which is sort of silly.

Not every Intimitank rolled Lawful.
Which is why Chaosgarde were such a huge mistake in the first place. Every Dodge item was a mistake.

Chaosgarde - Penalizes the non-Lawful AC characters without UMD.
Chattering Ring - Huge grinding to get it. Sort of required to be 'good'.
Icy Rainment - Do I need to elaborate?
Rituals - Binds gear to you. Hurts a lot if you're not ready to bind it.

Anyway, that's a different topic.

PS: Notice that neither of the Chattering Ring or Chaosgarde has lost value with time,
which is another problem of the Dodge bonuses.
It's the nature of an MMO for gear to "degrade" over time. If it didn't happen, players would find a completion point for a character and never play them again, maybe even delete them once they hit the maximum character slots. It's natural to consistently replace gear.
Why are you quoting me? I'm on your side!

[Angelus_dead]

greatsword and falchion (sans swing speed and synergy with Dwarven Axe Enhancements), but its DPS is so low compared to any +5 Elemental of PG weapon you can find
Ha ha! Lol, what? +5 Shock Pg beats SOS? In your dreams!

[Borror0]

Ha ha! Lol, what? +5 Shock Pg beats SOS? In your dreams!

I think he meant against mobs with DR/Good.

[Angelus_dead]

I think he meant against mobs with DR/Good.
There is no DDO monster with enough DR/Good to make +5 shock pg beat SOS. Good+Silver, yes, but he didn't say the weapon was also silver.

[Tanka]

Ha ha! Lol, what? +5 Shock Pg beats SOS? In your dreams!
You're right. The SOS beats out a standard +5 Elemental Burst of PG. However, those with SOS also have access to a Lightning 2 Greataxe, and most people who don't have access to SOS have access to a Lightning 2 Greataxe.

Comparing raid loot to non-raid loot was presumptive of me, however, the point is: SOS is old hat. Has been since the Shroud came out and people started their crafting.

[Murderface]

I've seen 35 on my pure barb, expecting 38-40 on my new one; but I wont be able to be certain on this till he's lvl'ed and geared. Just hit 13 and got flagged for shroud.
well lets hear5 what weapon and what str buff im speaking purely of a +5 gs maul
pA6 damage boost 4 bard buffs madstone
so 33 has been my limit but i very much doubt you did score as high as 35 unless your were using i high +4 greater bane or better with maybe a scourge choker
and if your using one of those i suggest youi dont seeing that sloower attack speed doesnt help your two handed cause any
but personaly with max self buff no scourge choker(THOSE THINGS ARE A JOKE)
wf pa 3 barb pa 3 damage boost 4 and a +5 mineral gs maul(havent upgraded to gs ga), madstone and of course warchanter max buff...witht hat kind of set up ive never seen great then 33 and i think the max ive hit on a non critical is 85

blacksteel if you care to explain under what conditions you get 35 for a glancing blow i would be sure interested in knowing how

im sure your mistaken 38-40 yeah right thats probably impossible

with that kind of glancing your talking 100 damage per non critical hit or maybe thats a future sthf build lol where you getting these numbers from seriously

[BlackSteel]

well lets hear5 what weapon and what str buff im speaking purely of a +5 gs maul
pA6 damage boost 4 bard buffs madstone
so 33 has been my limit but i very much doubt you did score as high as 35 unless your were using i high +4 greater bane or better with maybe a scourge choker
and if your using one of those i suggest youi dont seeing that sloower attack speed doesnt help your two handed cause any
but personaly with max self buff no scourge choker(THOSE THINGS ARE A JOKE)
wf pa 3 barb pa 3 damage boost 4 and a +5 mineral gs maul(havent upgraded to gs ga), madstone and of course warchanter max buff...witht hat kind of set up ive never seen great then 33 and i think the max ive hit on a non critical is 85

blacksteel if you care to explain under what conditions you get 35 for a glancing blow i would be sure interested in knowing how

im sure your mistaken 38-40 yeah right thats probably impossible

with that kind of glancing your talking 100 damage per non critical hit or maybe thats a future sthf build lol where you getting these numbers from seriously

axe squeezes out a bit more GB damage than maul, WF PA enhancements, damage boost then the normal buffs

an 85 noncrit with no sneak damage would give you a GB of 35, entirely possible on a wf pure barb

[Gennerik]

Are you telling me that critical hits have only a 5% impact?! That's incredibly inaccurate, I hope I'm getting you wrong.

Yes, you are. That 5% is the variance between average damage (So your average without adding in glancing blows should only vary by about 5%, and your average with glancing blows should only vary 5%)


No. they only require modifying glancing blows...

Except for the idea that glancing blows actually work out quite well before module 6 content. Even in Gianthold, the average damage done by glancing blows was significant enough warrant wanting a Two-handed Fighter in the group to help kill things. So if you modify all glancing blows, then you end up completely destroying lower level content. Even if you make it an effect of Greater Two-handed Fighting, that's still available at level 11, and you end up ruining the balance of Gianthold.


But that should be solve by nerfing the HP... don't you think?

At which point then you end up with monsters that casters can either insta-kill or use Disintegrate to kill almost immediately. Just adjusting the monster HP means that you will need to nerf casters again (and I don't want to go through that again. They're already borderline with the insta-kill spells).


That's inelegant, too complicated for nothing and also ignores class abilities and feats which is sort of silly.

No more inelegant and complicated than stripping off weapon on-hit effects for glancing blows, perhaps?



Which is why Chaosgarde were such a huge mistake in the first place. Every Dodge item was a mistake.

Chaosgarde - Penalizes the non-Lawful AC characters without UMD.
Chattering Ring - Huge grinding to get it. Sort of required to be 'good'.
Icy Rainment - Do I need to elaborate?
Rituals - Binds gear to you. Hurts a lot if you're not ready to bind it.
Anyway, that's a different topic.

PS: Notice that neither of the Chattering Ring or Chaosgarde has lost value with time,
Why are you quoting me? I'm on your side!

That is a different subject, though I do tend to agree that every dodge item has been a mistake. At least when you balance out monster attack bonuses to reflect people having them, which screws over all the people that don't have them or can't use them.

[Borror0]

So your average without adding in glancing blows should only vary by about 5%, and your average with glancing blows should only vary 5%
If glancing would only matter for 5%, we would not be talking about improving them to balance THF my friend.

Except for the idea that glancing blows actually work out quite well before module 6 content. Even in Gianthold, the average damage done by glancing blows was significant enough warrant wanting a Two-handed Fighter in the group to help kill things. So if you modify all glancing blows, then you end up completely destroying lower level content. Even if you make it an effect of Greater Two-handed Fighting, that's still available at level 11, and you end up ruining the balance of Gianthold.
Destroy low level content?!

At lower levels, S&B > THF or TWF. That's up to level 10. As for glancing blows mattering in Gianthold, it's not glancing blows that matter in Gianthold but DPS. TWF got a DPS increase in Module 6 anyway. (I was to say not that long ago but it's already severals months ago now... Turbine is so slow getting updates out. :()
At which point then you end up with monsters that casters can either insta-kill or use
Disintegrate to kill almost immediately. Just adjusting the monster HP means that you will need to nerf casters again (and I don't want to go through that again. They're already borderline with the insta-kill spells).
Sorry but killing with Vorpal or WoP is not fun!

Yes, I rather nerf casters than have to spend another Module vorpalling ****.

No more inelegant and complicated than stripping off weapon on-hit effects for glancing blows, perhaps?
Not sure if I get what you mean...

[Gennerik]

If glancing would only matter for 5%, we would not be talking about improving them to balance THF my friend.

I'm not saying that glancing blows only constitute a 5% difference in DPS. I'm saying that your average damage including glancing blows should only vary by about 5%. It goes back to your comment about allowing critical hits with glancing blows being too hard to balance. I'm saying that it wouldn't be too difficult to take a large sample of swings in order to come of with a fairly accurate average, which could then be used to balance how much of an effect glancing blows with criticals would have. The difference between critical glancing blows and just normal glancing blows would probably be on the magnitude of the difference between glancing blows and no glancing blows, so it should lead to a substantial increase in two-handed fighting DPS, but at the same time, there is no reason why it couldn't be easily balanced to allow for critical glancing blows as well. That way it may not always be the greensteel weapon with all the modifiers on in that deals the most damage, meaning that there could be a reason to carry around more than one weapon again.


Destroy low level content?!

At lower levels, S&B > THF or TWF. That's up to level 10. As for glancing blows mattering in Gianthold, it's not glancing blows that matter in Gianthold but DPS. TWF got a DPS increase in Module 6 anyway. (I was to say not that long ago but it's already severals months ago now... Turbine is so slow getting updates out. :()
At which point then you end up with monsters that casters can either insta-kill or use
Sorry but killing with Vorpal or WoP is not fun!

Yes, I rather nerf casters than have to spend another Module vorpalling ****.

Even the lower levels are about DPS. If you can kill a monster before it gets the chance to swing at you, you take less damage. Two-handed Fighters are still better off than Two-weapon Fighters under level 10, and you are correct, Sword-and-Board characters are probably the kings of levels 1-10 simply because the shield AC actually matters at those levels when things have a realistic chance of missing the average AC. But they still take longer to kill things than a Two-handed Fighter. Changing how the base damage of glancing blows works has the possibility of ruining the lower levels because you have the ability to kill everything around you before they get to really attack (Similar to how Cleave/Attacking can quickly kill things, often before things get a chance to affect the players).

And the only bad thing about nerfing casters is all you do is hurt the party dynamics again. Remember the good old days of Cloudkill? Sitting around, waiting for things to take Con damage. They changed Cloudkill, and casters began to experiment with actual damage again. Then it was decided that monsters began to get too many HP, so now we shield block doorways and wait while Firewall kills everything. Add in fire immunity, and casters again start going with damage until they get to the point they can FoD everything. Nerf them again, and we'll probably go back to some other AoE spell that requires us to wait whiel things die.


Not sure if I get what you mean...

I mean that we've already got an artificial system in place for glancing blows where the normal hit mechanics are ignored for weapons (a flaming weapon doesn't deal fire damage when it touches something on a glancing blow, but yet it still deals 30 damage to things). So how is stripping off other effects (Keen, Critical Rage, etc) and allowing criticals for the base weapon type on glancing blows too complex?

[Murderface]

axe squeezes out a bit more GB damage than maul, WF PA enhancements, damage boost then the normal buffs

an 85 noncrit with no sneak damage would give you a GB of 35, entirely possible on a wf pure barb
nope it gives 33 glancing blow and lets say i get a gs ga i doubt even with it i would get 35 it would have to be a +5 greater bane ga etc to get a glancing blow of 35
and i have a wf barb ive never seen past 33 it would help if you could find a screenie of that

[Cold_Stele]

Stop the press!


Two Handed Fighting feats function with quarterstaff attacks as they do with other two handed weapons.

Quarterstaves currently do not inherently produce glancing blows on their first attack. This is under review, along with a couple of other potential additions to the Two Handed Fighting line.

[BlackSteel]

Stop the press!

yeh saw that earlier today myself ^^

now if we only had the WDA we'd know just what he was referencing to

and murder, i'll give ya a screenie once i finish my new barb, might as well give you one with a GB > 35