Sword and Board Fixes

[HumanJHawkins]

I'm not going to talk about nerfing other classes here, though I'll admit I am starting to agree that some sort of nerf might be needed in some cases. But regardless of that, here is what is needed to make Sword and Board more viable.

1) The AC ritual needs to be changed to be relatively better for more effective armor types. I suggest:
- Cloth armors: No benefit
- Anything whose non-mithril form is light, i.e. chain shirt: +1 AC
- Anything whose non-mithril form is medium, i.e. breastplate: +2
- Anything whose non-mithril form is heavy, i.e. full plate: +3

- Same for shields... Light+1, Heavy +2, Tower +3
2) Add an enhancement line that raises AC while using a Tower Shield. Call it "Tower Shield Defense" or something.

3) Add a Sword and Board feat that affects number of attacks. There should be an "Improved Sword and Board" that gives one extra attack, and a "Greater Sword and Board" that gives another, for a total of 2.

NOTE: This would still leave the maxed out S&B build with 7 attacks vs. 10 for TWF. So, there would still be a lot of reason to go TWF (30% more damage capability). But this would allow S&B to at least be viable.

4) Add a feat to make the shield bash act like a second weapon. I.e. you could attack with the weapon as main hand, and shield as second hand. The shield would not be as good as almost any available weapon, so again this would not be a replacement for TWF. But it would help keep S&B viable. (And the existing TWF feats could apply as an extension of the "shield as off-hand weapon feat.) Basically, for the cost of an extra feat, you could have the equivalent of a crappy off hand weapon while maintaining the S&B AC.

Many of the above should probably be Fighter class feats, to help balance the value of the Fighter class.

5) Add a S&B defense feat that gives you a chance to avoid getting hit even on a 20. Perhaps, when hit with a natural 20, the opponent has to roll to confirm the hit at +10 or something. (The S&B equivalent of evasion)

6) Add a feat that gives heavy fort when wearing Full plate and a tower shield.

Anything else?

[Borror0]

Why do you need to create another thread when there is this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=158517&page=5) already going on?

Go post it there instead of starting a second thread...

[Angelus_dead]

3) Add a Sword and Board feat that affects number of attacks. There should be an "Improved Sword and Board" that gives one extra attack, and a "Greater Sword and Board" that gives another, for a total of 2.
In the olden days that feat was included in the DDO compendium as "Melee Alacrity". It's a bad idea, because spending feats for a higher attack rate isn't supposed to be what S&B is all about. S&B is supposed to be about superior defense, and spending feats to boost its raw attack rate is moving it in the wrong direction.

It's OK if feats are added which S&B guys can take to increase their pure offensive abilities, but they should generally work with other combat styles as well, except that TWF guys won't necessarily be able to afford the feat slots to get them.

[Angelus_dead]

Why do you need to create another thread when there is this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=158517&page=5) already going on?
There can be a lot of reasons not to use an existing thread. A primary one is that the other thread already has at least three completely distinct topics going on. This forum software does not really allow nested replies within a thread, so adding further digressions would just make that one messier.

[Borror0]

Hawkins, let me put it this way to you: inflation is bad.

[Angelus_dead]

1) The AC ritual needs to be changed to be relatively more better for more effective armor types. I suggest:
That has the strong negative consequence of making ritual AC overpowered. A tower-build would gain +6 AC by using your rituals, which means for such a character to fight with a non-bound shield or armor is barely even a viable option.

It would create too-large a gap between attuned and non-attuned tower+fp sets. If you wanted to raise the AC of tower+fp characters, then you could do it in other ways like just allowing those items to have more raw AC of their own, like unlocking +6 and +7 enhancement bonuses for them.


5) Add a S&B defense feat that gives you a chance to avoid getting hit even on a 20. Perhaps, when hit with a natural 20, the opponent has to roll to confirm the hit at +10 or something. (The S&B equivalent of evasion)
Something on that idea could be OK, but it probably shouldn't be a feat (AP maybe).


Anything else?
A very popular suggestion is to create a feat which gives shield-wearers some amount of passive DR. I have suggested

Shield Vigilance, req BAB 10 + Shield prof
You gain a bonus to DR/- equal to half your Shield AC bonus (round up). This stacks with all forms of passive DR, but not with the active DR from shield-blocking.

[Vizzini]

/signed and SAGE! ¬.¬


Why do you need to create another thread when there is this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=158517&page=5) already going on?

Go post it there instead of starting a second thread...

[Borror0]

Add an enhancement line that raises AC while using a Tower Shield. Call it "Tower Shield Defense" or something.
Great! More weakening S&B to making them waste their APs on useless AC abilities!:rolleyes:

Bad idea.

Add a Sword and Board feat that affects number of attacks. There should be an "Improved Sword and Board" that gives one extra attack, and a "Greater Sword and Board" that gives another, for a total of 2.
A better way to do it is simply make of it inherent to S&B fighting and increase the damage rather than number of swing/round.

Changing the factor of Str from +1 damage/Str modifier to 1.25/Str modifier would help a bit. As it can be easily observed, S&B is really powerful at lower levels but as characters gain more Str and more feats, S&B slowly falls way behind in damage. Then, when you hit Gianthold where AC suddenly matters even less, it's the last hit S&B needed.

Add a feat to make the shield bash act like a second weapon. I.e. you could attack with the weapon as main hand, and shield as second hand. The shield would not be as good as almost any available weapon, so again this would not be a replacement for TWF. But it would help keep S&B viable. (And the existing TWF feats could apply as an extension of the "shield as off-hand weapon feat.) Basically, for the cost of an extra feat, you could have the equivalent of a crappy off hand weapon while maintaining the S&B AC.
Aesop suggested that already. Still thinking about it, don't know why I'm so hesitant one that one.

Probably seems a waste of feat to me. (If it were to be implemented, making that part of ISB would be the best idea, as that feat is nearly worthless on its on.)

(The S&B equivalent of evasion)
I guess you mean S&B equivalent of Improved Evasion?

Add a feat that gives heavy fort when wearing Full plate and a tower shield.
You mean that the FP of Defenders is not enough? Neither is a Mineral II accessory, I guess?

[HumanJHawkins]

Why do you need to create another thread when there is this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=158517&page=5) already going on?

Go post it there instead of starting a second thread...


Well, the main reason is that I didn't see that thread. It was at the bottom of the page when I came over today.

But as Angelus pointed out, it does look like that thread is getting muddy. Sometimes it is best to let the best ideas from a muddy thread get pulled out into a new one for clarity. I see people are already doing that here. (The DR suggestion for one)

[Turial]

....
1) The AC ritual needs to be changed to be relatively better for more effective armor types. I suggest:

- Cloth armors: No benefit
- Anything whose non-mithril form is light, i.e. chain shirt: +1 AC
- Anything whose non-mithril form is medium, i.e. breastplate: +2
- Anything whose non-mithril form is heavy, i.e. full plate: +3

- Same for shields... Light+1, Heavy +2, Tower +3
....

Why are you using "non-mithral is" designations for these armors? Mithral armor is not the same as the normal version of that armor.

[Angelus_dead]

Why are you using "non-mithral is" designations for these armors? Mithral armor is not the same as the normal version of that armor.
He specified non-mithral so that +5 mith fp could get +3 ritual AC like heavy armor, instead of +2 like medium armor.

[Borror0]

He specified non-mithral so that +5 mith fp could get +3 ritual AC like heavy armor, instead of +2 like medium armor.

Kinda pointless to do so for light armors though. ;)

[HumanJHawkins]

In the olden days that feat was included in the DDO compendium as "Melee Alacrity". It's a bad idea, because spending feats for a higher attack rate isn't supposed to be what S&B is all about. S&B is supposed to be about superior defense, and spending feats to boost its raw attack rate is moving it in the wrong direction.

I agree in principle, except that DDO is different in two ways that are relevant here:
1) The existing game environment (for better or worse) really requires DPS to be effective. A high DPS toon with low AC can find a cleric to boost him long enough to kill stuff. However, a SnB build will not be able to overcome the regen of several important mobs (i.e. Shroud 2), no matter how long they try. The require higher DPS to succeed.
2) The community is a critical part of the gaming experience. And 90% of the players in the game are not happy playing alongside low DPS builds. No matter how effective a person is, they will have to endure pressure and derision from other players if it takes too long to kill stuff.

Because of the above, it is important to get defensive builds up to about 70 or 80% of the DPS of DPS builds. Most calculations I have seen currently show them at about 40 or 50%.


That has the strong negative consequence of making ritual AC overpowered. A tower-build would gain +6 AC by using your rituals, which means for such a character to fight with a non-bound shield or armor is barely even a viable option.

It would create too-large a gap between attuned and non-attuned tower+fp sets. If you wanted to raise the AC of tower+fp characters, then you could do it in other ways like just allowing those items to have more raw AC of their own, like unlocking +6 and +7 enhancement bonuses for them.

Well, +6 may be too high. Perhaps make the ritual not work on chain or cloth, but make it +1 for breastplates or heavy shields, and +2 for full plate or tower shield. The point is that it needs to scale. I don't think +4 would be too unbalancing. We already have monks and rangers running around with that, and they aren't even wearing armor.

The problem with enabling +6 or +7 on full plate is (again) the community. Everyone would start complaining that they never see +7 chain shirts. Just like when Dwarven Axes and Rapiers could not be crafted... Not having them available was a good game balance decision, but it angered the players who wanted their favorite type of weapon.


Shield Vigilance, req BAB 10 + Shield prof
You gain a bonus to DR/- equal to half your Shield AC bonus (round up). This stacks with all forms of passive DR, but not with the active DR from shield-blocking.

This would be good, as long as they don't make the mistake they often make... I.e. They should take the idea into the game, but redesign it to make sense in DDO. It should be DR at least equal to the shield AC bonus (not half). DR of 9 or 10 for a feat in this game is about right. DR of 5 would be a waste.

Better would be a damage mitigation based on percent. Perhaps 10% for the feat, with a line of enhancements that takes it up to 50%. When you are getting hit for 150 at a time, the existing DR in the game is just silly.

[Turial]

He specified non-mithral so that +5 mith fp could get +3 ritual AC like heavy armor, instead of +2 like medium armor.

Thats my point though. Mithral full plate isnt heavy armor and shouldnt get the +3 boost of heavy armor but rather the +2 of medium armor which it is for all the benafits and drawbacks of that weight class for armor.

[Angelus_dead]

The problem with enabling +6 or +7 on full plate is (again) the community. Everyone would start complaining that they never see +7 chain shirts.
Wrong. If +6 or +7 was allowed for fp and shield, there's be no reason at all not to let chain shirts have it too. High-AC dex builds do not wear chainshirts. They use robes for infinite max dex bonus.


This would be good, as long as they don't make the mistake they often make... I.e. They should take the idea into the game, but redesign it to make sense in DDO. It should be DR at least equal to the shield AC bonus (not half). DR of 9 or 10 for a feat in this game is about right. DR of 5 would be a waste.
Wrong. DR 9 for a feat is laughably overpowered. DR 5 for a feat would have been overpowered in D&D, which is good, because the suggested feat doesn't exist in that game.


Better would be a damage mitigation based on percent. Perhaps 10% for the feat, with a line of enhancements that takes it up to 50%. When you are getting hit for 150 at a time, the existing DR in the game is just silly.
No, that would be bad. Furthermore, you don't get hit for 150 in DDO, unless you have no fortification, in which case the silliness is all user-error.

[Borror0]

The community is a critical part of the gaming experience. And 90% of the players in the game are not happy playing alongside low DPS builds. No matter how effective a person is, they will have to endure pressure and derision from other players if it takes too long to kill stuff.
This is wrong. It's not their DPS that gets laughed at, it's their effectiveness.

Go back to Module 2 and you'll see what I mean.

Because of the above, it is important to get defensive builds [DPS] up [...] Most calculations I have seen currently show them at about 40 or 50% [which is too low].
That a pretty accurate statement. (As you can see, I'm not willing to put a percentage of where S&B should be at. totally arbitrary without testing,)

[Turial]

Wrong. If +6 or +7 was allowed for fp and shield, there's be no reason at all not to let chain shirts have it too. High-AC dex builds do not wear chainshirts. They use robes for infinite max dex bonus.
.

Because the robes we have are nice and there is no cloth version of mithral that one can get randomly.

[HumanJHawkins]

Thats my point though. Mithral full plate isnt heavy armor and shouldnt get the +3 boost of heavy armor but rather the +2 of medium armor which it is for all the benafits and drawbacks of that weight class for armor.

It's not a weight class distinction. IMO, if you cover yourself in metal plates, you have a better potential to be protected. Otherwise I would have just said "heavy armor +x". Mithril should get the same benefit as steel from the ritual.

Plus, it's a game balancing thing that is supposed to help S&B. Your suggestion would defeat the purpose.

[Turial]

It's not a weight class distinction. IMO, if you cover yourself in metal plates, you have a better potential to be protected. Otherwise I would have just said "heavy armor +x". Mithril should get the same benefit as steel from the ritual.

Plus, it's a game balancing thing that is supposed to help S&B. Your suggestion would defeat the purpose.

My suggestion would make mithral and non-mithral full plate equal, which would defeat something but I won't comment on what it is. +2 dex +2 ritual vs +3 ritual and +1 dex = +4 AC.

Its not a weight class distinction as you said but it is a matter of how that armor functions. Mithral armors don't require the same dedication in feats to use so you are opening the higher AC boosts to players who normally wouldnt be able to wear the higher class armors. And the boosting of non-mithral armor helps S&B more then the boosting of mithral armor due to stats. IE. if it takes 2 less dex to reach the max S&B AC that means you can have 2 more str which is DPS, which S&B lacks at times.

[HumanJHawkins]

My suggestion would make mithral and non-mithral full plate equal, which would defeat something but I won't comment on what it is. +2 dex +2 ritual vs +3 ritual and +1 dex = +4 AC.

Sword and board is all about AC. All AC sword and board builds have +4 or +5 mithril full plate at end game. (Because even a casual player can get +4 and it is better than +5 regular FP for AC). So, while your intentions are good, you are nerfing the exact set of people this is supposed to be helping.

The only (important) difference between Mithril FP and regular is that mithril allows dex builds +2 to their max dex bonus. Why would you want to nerf S&B builds who have enough dex to take advantage of this bonus? I.e. Why negate the only benefit those builds are getting for their choice to put a few points into Dex instead of STR?

(Side question: You say your proposal will make Mithril and non-mithril full plate equal. Ok... It would. But what possible reason could there be for doing this? Why not just take mithril out of the game?)

I probably won't reply since I will already have to work late to make up all this time on the forums, but suffice to say: Ugh!

[Inspire]

Perhaps All That Is Needed To "Fix S&B" Is To Boost The Base Ac Bonus On All Shields.

Ex(Not Including Dex);

1 Bucklers; +2, Total Base= +3 Armor Bonus
1 Light Shields; +3, Total Base= +4 Armor Bonus
2 Heavy Shields; +4, Total Base= +6 Armor Bonus
4 Tower Shields; +6, Total Base= +10 Armor Bonus


... Although Ill Prolly Get Flamed For This:D

[Turial]

....
(Side question: You say your proposal will make Mithril and non-mithril full plate equal. Ok... It would. But what possible reason could there be for doing this? Why not just take mithril out of the game?)....!

The hope was to make a situation where adamantine full plate and being able to put points into str rather then dex while still maintaining AC might actually be useful from a defensive stand point but after running the numbers on a few different setups what I had suggested failed to do that without costing much more then the worth of the passive DR or actually change the status que. So I withdraw my suggestion on the mithral vs non-mithral.

[Aesop]

Well I may as well toss some things in this


Alchemical Armor Ritual have this apply effects based on the armor its applied to. Robes and Light armor +1. Medium and Heavy Armor +2

Alchemical Shield Ritual Same as the Armor Ritual. +1 Buckler and Light Shield +2 Heavy and Tower Shield.



Armor Specialization
Requires BAB +12
Grant DR 2/- with that type of Armor (I think that armors that have a natural DR/- should stack with this ie Adamantine Full Plate would become DR5/-)

I could see this with a few enhancements available to up that DR. I also could see this Increasing either the Max Dex Bonus of the Armor.

Additionally. I would like to see a few changes to some of the Fighter enhancements.

Fighter Armor Mastery should be Brought Down to a 2 Tier Enhancemnt either costing 2 and 4 or 3 and 6. THis would only Improve the Max Dex by 2 points. Additionally as a 2 tiered enhancment I'd like to see Fighter Armor Optimization improve the effective AC when wearing armor (Robes and Outfits are clothes and not Armor) This would yield slightly better results for lower costs. Dex necessity would be a little lower thus saving build points (though the Feat would be available to improve that back up to its current best Dex option) AP cost would be the same for more effect.



Shield Specialization
Grants +1 AC when using Shields(or possibly +1 for bucklers and Light Shield and +2 for Heavy and Tower Shields) (and is a prerequisite for other Feat)(could also allow it to increase the Max Dex Bonus from Tower Shields and modify shields to deal Strengthx1.5 damage when Shield Bashing)


Improved Shield Bash should include a passive Shield Bash as a Hook ... This could actually be along the same lines as a THF Glancing Blows but be a Target Specific shot.

The shield fighting mechanic could be altered to include targeted shield Bash on a number of swings in a sequence and Improved Shield Bash could improve the number or the damage or both


Active Shield Defense
Requires Shield Specialization
Grants the ability to make AoO while Fighting Defensively without Penalty

Maybe Modify this to DDO to apply the Shield's DR bonus while Fighting Defensively or using CE since we don't have AoOs

Anopther option is to have this create a "deflection" miss chance. that would happen after the roll possibly negating the attack or maybe just having it apply a 50% damage penalty. Perhaps have this % chance be based off the Shield AC. With penalties assigned to Buckler and a Bonus to Tower Shields.

3% per Shield AC with the buckler counting as 1 lower and Tower Shields as 2 higher

so a +5 Buckler is 15%
and a +5 Tower Shield 33%

combine that with a few of the other ideas I've put forward like the Alchemical Ritual modification and Shield Specialization Feat

and a +5 Alchemically Treated Buckler comes out as 21% and the Tower Shield as 45%

the bonus shouldn't be able to get TOO high as that would be overpowered ... this is about as high as I would suggest... and this may be too high at that


btw a top tier maxed out(+5 Ritual and Feat) Hvy Shield would yield 33%... not too bad considering. No real need for the Pally to get the Feat unless he is really goin for it

heck you could have the Blocking effect count when calculating the % so a Tower would end up while blocking as 51% HS 39% buckler 27% (not that people really use bucklers very often)



Shield Ward
Requires Shield Specialization (suggest adding Active Shield Defense as well)
Grants the shields AC bonus to touch AC, and a bonus to resist Bull Rush, Overrun, Trip, Disarm and Grapple

even just as a bonus to Resist Overrun and Trip may be nice... maybe to Crippled etc would be a good addition for DDO

Also since they use Touch Attacks in this and we don't have Touch Attacks in DDO perhaps have this Apply the Deflection idea above to Rays... like Deflecting a Ray of Enfeeblement or Enervation or Searing Light etc.


Of course we also have a problem with having too few Feat to go around and could really use a few more GOOD ones.


Aesop

[VirieSquichie]

1) The AC ritual needs to be changed to be relatively better for more effective armor types. I suggest:
- Cloth armors: No benefit
- Anything whose non-mithril form is light, i.e. chain shirt: +1 AC
- Anything whose non-mithril form is medium, i.e. breastplate: +2
- Anything whose non-mithril form is heavy, i.e. full plate: +3

- Same for shields... Light+1, Heavy +2, Tower +3
2) Add an enhancement line that raises AC while using a Tower Shield. Call it "Tower Shield Defense" or something.

3) Add a Sword and Board feat that affects number of attacks. There should be an "Improved Sword and Board" that gives one extra attack, and a "Greater Sword and Board" that gives another, for a total of 2.

NOTE: This would still leave the maxed out S&B build with 7 attacks vs. 10 for TWF. So, there would still be a lot of reason to go TWF (30% more damage capability). But this would allow S&B to at least be viable.

4) Add a feat to make the shield bash act like a second weapon. I.e. you could attack with the weapon as main hand, and shield as second hand. The shield would not be as good as almost any available weapon, so again this would not be a replacement for TWF. But it would help keep S&B viable. (And the existing TWF feats could apply as an extension of the "shield as off-hand weapon feat.) Basically, for the cost of an extra feat, you could have the equivalent of a crappy off hand weapon while maintaining the S&B AC.

Many of the above should probably be Fighter class feats, to help balance the value of the Fighter class.

5) Add a S&B defense feat that gives you a chance to avoid getting hit even on a 20. Perhaps, when hit with a natural 20, the opponent has to roll to confirm the hit at +10 or something. (The S&B equivalent of evasion)

6) Add a feat that gives heavy fort when wearing Full plate and a tower shield.


1) This wouldn't work as you intend as there are many TWF builds that use armor and not robes - making them more powerful in the midgame would make S&B types less desirable than they already are there. Newer characters wouldn't ever get to endgame as a result. Any fix would have to take into account the early and midgames, not just the endgame, or the risk of breaking additional things would be too great.

2) Probably the best idea in this list, though it would be really rough on the already strained paladins to have another difficult enhancement choice.

3 and 4) No. Bad. The whole point is you can prevent more damage to yourself. Mix this with increased damage output and you risk creating a nearly unstoppable tank. Also, I hope you weren't saying limit them to only fighters. Anything that's intended to improve S&B should be available to paladins as well. In theory clerics could choose some kind of S&B also.

5) Total break from the PnP ruleset, so BAD. 20's hit, period. Now, a feat or enhancement that significantly improves shield DR wouldn't break anything and would increase the utility of a dedicated shield build.

6) I'd suggest this be an enhancement line, and not heavy fort but an additional + to whatever fort the character is already sporting - including the possibility of a better than 100% fort chance that would still protect vs things that can best heavy fort. (I seem to recall a thread about this some time ago, not sure if it was theoretical)

I also disagree with the idea of unlocking +6 or +7 for shields. This would allow any TWF to carry one and get the added benefit on the fly, with no investment other than a single inventory slot. It also flies in the face of core rules. We need something that helps only those who specialize, or we allow the most powerful even more power. Currently this means adding a feat or enhancement, and the enhancements are the House Rules method of adding things so I'd really only expect to see changes made there.

[Reisz]

Thats my point though. Mithral full plate isnt heavy armor and shouldnt get the +3 boost of heavy armor but rather the +2 of medium armor which it is for all the benafits and drawbacks of that weight class for armor.

I disagree. Full plate is full plate. The amount of protect is the same, the style, etc... It just physically weighs less, thus giving you added mobility. *If* this system were adopted, I would expect to see a +3 boost from mithral full plate.

[Forceonature]

Here's my recommendations, in addition to the proposed enhancements to the next mod without even mentioning ranger nerfs :):

Change the Dodge feat to +2 instead of +1
Modify the Levik Defender's set to a dodge bonus instead of insight bonus
Revert back to having shield bash unaffected by CE OR modify Improved Shield bash to include +5 to-hit bonus.
Reduce AP costs to the shield/armor enhancement lines

[Borror0]

Probably the best idea in this list, though it would be really rough on the already strained paladins to have another difficult enhancement choice.

It's not a good idea at all, actually.

Why it is so, is actually quite simple. I'll make the assumption everyone reading this thread knows that defense-oriented builds were having issues since Module 4, or at least pre-Module 7. (They were good, but still less good than most DPS builds.) The reason to that was the too great sacrifices to be made in order to be a 'good defensive build'. As you may know already, when going for AC you have to make sacrifices, the most obvious one being sacrificing DPS.

The problem with that suggestion is that it require furthermore sacrifices.

Even if the bonus would sufficiently high enough to counter-attack the higher AC of many TWF builds, which in itself is very unlikely because the gap to close is of about 10 AC where it would be a tie (ie S&B would not be better but equal in AC), it would address the 'greater cost' advantage. Even if you were succeeding in giving more AC to S&B, they would still be weaker than DPS builds and, most likely, still weaker than those High AC TWF builds because the cost of spec'ing for High AC S&B will be far greater than it would be desirable.

And obviously, if it happen to be class specific it's another whole issue. But that's unrelated... for now.

[HumanJHawkins]

Re: Forceonature


Change the Dodge feat to +2 instead of +1
Modify the Levik Defender's set to a dodge bonus instead of insight bonus

The trouble with your first 2 suggestions is that they would benefit rangers, thereby failing to do anything to address the imbalance between rangers and S&B.

Re: VirieSquichie's comment that these things should be available to paladins:
Definitely. I didn't mean to exclude them.

Re: Aesop's Alchemical Armor Ritual have this apply effects based on the armor its applied to. Robes and Light armor +1. Medium and Heavy Armor +2
Alchemical Shield Ritual Same as the Armor Ritual. +1 Buckler and Light Shield +2 Heavy and Tower Shield.
I prefer three tiers. +0, +1, and +2... Mainly because lots of people can use large shields. Pretty much only S&B builds use towers. So, I think it would be a more targeted balancing to give towers a little more.

Plus, no class that primarily uses cloth or chain needs any more armor class (compared to others). And, Mithril breastplates are only 1 point away from mithril chain shirts for AC benefit. So, if breastplates got a bonus of more than +1, it would turn out to be a buff for the moderately high Dex builds that are already doing better than S&B. (I.e. it would be a negative to the goal of balancing things.)

[Borror0]

The trouble with your first 2 suggestions is that they would benefit rangers, thereby failing to do anything to address the imbalance between rangers and S&B.
How does a set requiring a Tower Shield heps rangers?! :confused:

[Aesop]

Re: Aesop's Alchemical Armor Ritual have this apply effects based on the armor its applied to. Robes and Light armor +1. Medium and Heavy Armor +2
Alchemical Shield Ritual Same as the Armor Ritual. +1 Buckler and Light Shield +2 Heavy and Tower Shield.


I prefer three tiers. +0, +1, and +2... Mainly because lots of people can use large shields. Pretty much only S&B builds use towers. So, I think it would be a more targeted balancing to give towers a little more.

Paladins don't get Tower Shield Proficiency like fighters do. Applying this accross a more level line allows for more build options. Tower Shields already have enough advantage over the Heavy Shield that it doesn't need more. A TWF would still lose AC by using a shield anyway so it matters on that front very little . ButPaladin Pure Class Tanks don't have many Feat availavble and shouldn't be kicked aroiund anymore than Fighters


Plus, no class that primarily uses cloth or chain needs any more armor class (compared to others). And, Mithril breastplates are only 1 point away from mithril chain shirts for AC benefit. So, if breastplates got a bonus of more than +1, it would turn out to be a buff for the moderately high Dex builds that are already doing better than S&B. (I.e. it would be a negative to the goal of balancing things.)

A Mithril Breast Plate is Light Armor and would count as such in this. As it stands the Robes and Light Armor gain equal bonus as the Medium and Heavy. I don't want the rituals to be a Requirement thus no +3, but at the same time I want those Heavily Amrored to gain a benefit to their style






Aesop

[HumanJHawkins]

How does a set requiring a Tower Shield heps rangers?! :confused:
Oh. Lol. I thought Levik's Defender (or at least the insight AC bonus) was the bracers. In any event, a Dodge feat boost (I think he was talking about the feat) would benefit several types of TWF builds. Maybe I just misread that.

[Borror0]

The bonus is from the set. The Bracers alone are +6 Str and +20% Healing Amplification.

[artvan_delet]

Giving S/B extra AC is fine. Unless you make s/b AC superior to TWF, you still have a problem. Put differently, if s/b and twf have equal AC, then go with TWF because you have more dps. I can think of all sorts of varieties to put on a greensteel shield that would help close the gap between s/b and twf. TWF might have more dps, but s/b would have more variety.

[HumanJHawkins]

Giving S/B extra AC is fine. Unless you make s/b AC superior to TWF, you still have a problem. Put differently, if s/b and twf have equal AC, then go with TWF because you have more dps. I can think of all sorts of varieties to put on a greensteel shield that would help close the gap between s/b and twf. TWF might have more dps, but s/b would have more variety.

That's a good point. As I said before, I think S&B DPS needs to be about 70% of TWF. Incidentally, I think THF should be ar about 110% of TWF too, instead of it's current place at about 80%. But that's another thread.

Anyway, S&B needs way more than just an AC boost to make them on par with TWF builds... Their AC potential should probably be as good or slightly better (because there is something to be said for heroic levels of dexterity). But their other defense should be jacked up. Their DR potential should be as high or higher than Barbarians... Barbs get DR through dodging and tactics. But jamming a rapier through a (heroic fantasy magic) metal plate slows it down a bit and should count for something.

Also, if a fire bomb went off next to a rogue... Yeah, he might be able to dive into some ditch and avoid it. But many types of fire bombs would hurt a guy in full plate much less than a guy in cloth. Even electricity... You might think that it would get you better if wearing armor. But if the pieces are connected or touching, they might make a circuit straight to the ground and completely stop damage.

So, something like an armore of elemental resistance should be possible, etc.

Anyway, as this is a game and needs balance, regardless of any RL arguments, the DPS of SnB needs to be boosted quite a bit... TWF needs to be significantly better at DPS, but not over 2 times as good.

[Megaton_Samurai]

I don't see any way of S&B catching up without nerfing the monk splash. 1 level of monk splash puts the AC of TWF way over the top.

Personally I think the wis bonus to dex should cap at monk level but I know most everyone will disagree with me. Yes that sucks for builds that rely on it (I have a capped monk splash and one getting there with a cleric/mnk on the way) but it needs to be done. It is simply too good.

When the cap goes up, my current capped cleric will get 1 level of monk and net about 11ac from it. That's totally insane.

[Turial]

What about a change to the heart of Armored AC.

Currently S&B users trade DPS for AC at a huge loss due to armor mastery and dwarven armor mastery. What if we changed the nature of how armor mastery, dwarven armor mastery, and armored agility work?

Currently Armored mastery and dwarven armor mastery allow you to increase the maximum dex bonus allowed by your armor by 3 each for 6 total if you are a dwarven fighter. Armored agility allows you to reduce the armor check penalty of skills by 1 each (correct me if I'm wrong but this is pretty useless to a fighter).

What if armored mastery and dwarven armor mastery allowed the character with it better knowledge of how to utilize the protection affored by their armor. I.e. knowing how to shrug off blows that some one less knowledged in how to wear armor and use it correctly wouldn't fully understand which results it the normal amount of protection from that armor. Armored mastery and dwarven armor mastery would then simply become +1 your armor for the purposes of AC with no dex requirement.

Armored agility then takes on the old roll of armor mastery and boosts the max dex bonus for the armor and TS by 1.

Because of this we would no longer need tower shield mastery to increase the max dex of tower shields. It could then simply give a +1 per tier to the ac of the shield.

Proposed:
+5 enhancement +13 base +3 Armor mastery +3 Dwarven armor mastery +4 dex +4 base mith TS +5 enhancement +3 TS mastery = 40 AC but only would require an 18 dex which is 5 points cheaper then the current dex requirement for max armored AC. +6 AC vs current.

+5 enhancement +13 base +3 AM (3 AA) +6 dex +4 base mith TS +5 enhancement +3 TS mastery = 39 AC Requires 22 dex doesn't change things much for non-dwarves except more AC. +5 AC vs current.

Current:
+5 enhancement +13 base +3 dex +3 AM +1 DAM +4 Base mith TS +5 enhancment ( TS mastery 3) = 34 AC Requires 24 dex for dwarves.

+5 enhancement +13 base +3 dex +3 AM +4 base Mith TS +5 enhancment (TS mastery 2) = 33 AC requires 22 dex for non-dwarves.

Or is my head all messed up and those changes wouldn't do that?

If they are too powerful is another question.

[GeneralDiomedes]

it's simple .. make shields give an armour bonus higher than is otherwise possible .. that's how other games balance defence vs. offence.

[Demitris]

you know, as I've read this there has been one thing common among all the posts.

Changing of equipment or the adding of feats/enhancements to correct the issue. There have been a huge number of pro's and con's tossed about with ideas that have been laid out so far and some really good ideas along the way.

But how about this instead:

Rather than beefing up equipment to correct the balance, or adding more feats with which to even it up (which some classes *cough paladin* may not be ideal), why not look at a change akin to what we have with monks?

What I mean is, if a monk gets unbalanced, they loose their bonus's and abilities till re-balanced. If we apply this idea to S&B, while using a shield an innate shield using melee could receive a bonus that scales to level in that class, but as soon as the shield is removed its gone. This would mitigate the TWF AC differential as they clearly are not using a shield and gain none of the bonuses, without requiring rebalancing of a hundred other items along the way.

Just something extra to consider...

[HumanJHawkins]

What I mean is, if a monk gets unbalanced, they loose their bonus's and abilities till re-balanced. If we apply this idea to S&B, while using a shield an innate shield using melee could receive a bonus that scales to level in that class, but as soon as the shield is removed its gone. This would mitigate the TWF AC differential as they clearly are not using a shield and gain none of the bonuses, without requiring rebalancing of a hundred other items along the way.

Just something extra to consider...

It's a good idea, but also has issues. For example, the heavy shield (not tower) has no max dex bonus. So, TWF builds would still be able to throw on a heavy shield in occasional situations making S&B obsolete.

I think the key is to give Paladin's the Tower shield feat for free at 8th level or so, and then to base most of the rebalancing of AC around the Tower shield. This would give Pallys much needed love, and would do wonders to correct the balance without making the super Dex builds even more powerful.

But this still addrsses only the AC side of the equation. S&B DPS needs to get a 1.5x multiplier somehow, which will still leave it far behind TWF and THF. S&B needs to be weaker DPS. But not less than half of TWF as it is now.

[Demitris]

It's a good idea, but also has issues. For example, the heavy shield (not tower) has no max dex bonus. So, TWF builds would still be able to throw on a heavy shield in occasional situations making S&B obsolete.

I think the key is to give Paladin's the Tower shield feat for free at 8th level or so, and then to base most of the rebalancing of AC around the Tower shield. This would give Pallys much needed love, and would do wonders to correct the balance without making the super Dex builds even more powerful.

But this still addrsses only the AC side of the equation. S&B DPS needs to get a 1.5x multiplier somehow, which will still leave it far behind TWF and THF. S&B needs to be weaker DPS. But not less than half of TWF as it is now.

as such with my idea, you can tie in new enhancements etc that are class specific, or more so tie bonus's to levels in a class, eg: level 1 +1 AC, lvl 3 +2, etc etc (figures are just an example, not what I would actually suggest using). Yes a TWF can toss a shield on from time to time, but that is the prerogative of a TWF anyhow and shouldn't be eliminated since its still a versatility choice to make for the situation with ANY class.

Giving Pally's Tower shields won't solve things, in fact I would be against giving them towers since they are not designed to be turtle tanks (despite the common beliefs to the contrary).

[Forceonature]

Oh. Lol. I thought Levik's Defender (or at least the insight AC bonus) was the bracers. In any event, a Dodge feat boost (I think he was talking about the feat) would benefit several types of TWF builds. Maybe I just misread that.

You're right, changing Dodge from +1 to +2 would benefit rangers. It would also benefit fighters, paladins, or any other class that took that feat. I just think a feat should be more valuable then the alchemal bonus ritual.

[lobode]

Here's my recommendations, in addition to the proposed enhancements to the next mod without even mentioning ranger nerfs :):

Modify the Levik Defender's set to a dodge bonus instead of insight bonus
Reduce AP costs to the shield/armor enhancement lines



i like these 2 especially the change on leviks set as currently if a S&B toon (which is the intended type of toon) wears this set they are actually lowering their AC by 2 since they probably have a Green Steel with the +4 insight AC and will have to remove their chaos guard losing the dodge bonus. for those that don't know equiping the leviks set gives 20% more hate on attacks and +3 insight bonus.

Reducing the AP cost would be very nice also as it makes ady armor that much more viable.


Oh yeah and I really like all of Aesops ideas for feats and enhancements as they are all very well thought out and not overpowering.