Big F'n Stick Build

[drac317]

ok,dosent seem like the dex to SA is working,and wind stance still seems like the best choice for the stance

[koili]

Does the build in OP require any tomes to level up to 20?

[The_Phenx]

I have rolled up one of these, and am enjoying it quite a bit. I rolled dwarf, for added durability later on, and because I dig dwarves. So it won't be the maxed it could be, but should be fine.

My question is, do I need to wait until such a late level to take the 3rd monk level? I was thinking the path of light heal maneuvers would be pretty beneficial for soloing and self-healing. I am 4/2 right now. If it would hurt my rogue skills too much, I will wait, but a way to self-heal would be pretty nice right now.

Your rogue skills will be fine... Its taken later to get acrobat II asap.

[The_Phenx]

Does the build in OP require any tomes to level up to 20?

require... no... will they help yes, will they help a lot? shure... :D

[The_Phenx]

ok,dosent seem like the dex to SA is working,and wind stance still seems like the best choice for the stance

Agreed... the occasional double strike is interesting...it should be +1pt s/a damage +1 ac +1 reflex save and 2.5% doublestrike chance.

Still pretty decent.

Although if I keep running epics I may just give up the monk levels and ac... since they are useless in there anyway. And take my 5d6 S/A damage from the capstone and extra rogue levels.

[Aleslayer]

Your rogue skills will be fine... Its taken later to get acrobat II asap.

Thanks for the reply. That makes sense, and it's why I asked, I am not a pro at all of the intricacies and appreciate the help. I will hold off for now and try to use my character more in groups so I don't have to worry as much about self-healing.

[The_Phenx]

Either way will work fine honestly.

I know some folks want the self healing ASAP.

I took fists of light for the party buffs, because they are great, and a requirement, in quite a few of the higher level raids.

My self healing is based on scrolls.

[tfdac]

if you remove monk - any thought to going to something like a 13 Rogue / 6 (7?) Fighter / (1) Monk?

I'm currently leveling an acrobat and I plan on ending up as a 13/6/1 r/f/m with Kensai on staves. I figured the + to hit, combat DCs, critical damage, and normal damage in addition to the other things being a fighter brings would be a nice benefit to the build.

I use combat tactics quite a bit - mostly trip - so the fighter / kensai / dwarf bonuses there are more important to me than they may be to other people.

[Aerendil]

if you remove monk - any thought to going to something like a 13 Rogue / 6 (7?) Fighter / (1) Monk?

I'm currently leveling an acrobat and I plan on ending up as a 13/6/1 r/f/m with Kensai on staves. I figured the + to hit, combat DCs, critical damage, and normal damage in addition to the other things being a fighter brings would be a nice benefit to the build.

I use combat tactics quite a bit - mostly trip - so the fighter / kensai / dwarf bonuses there are more important to me than they may be to other people.

Curious on Phenx's response to this as well, as I brought this up in a different thread recently.

Monk wind stance used to offer a haste boost. Now the haste is negated in a group with the Haste spell (caps at 15%), but offers 2.5% double-strike at tier I (lvl 1).

Monk splash is now a matter of better AC + 2.5% double-strike vs. capstone (+2 dex and cheat death, or +2 int and +4d6 sneak attack dice). Not as easy as it once was...

[The_Phenx]

if you remove monk - any thought to going to something like a 13 Rogue / 6 (7?) Fighter / (1) Monk?

I'm currently leveling an acrobat and I plan on ending up as a 13/6/1 r/f/m with Kensai on staves. I figured the + to hit, combat DCs, critical damage, and normal damage in addition to the other things being a fighter brings would be a nice benefit to the build.

I use combat tactics quite a bit - mostly trip - so the fighter / kensai / dwarf bonuses there are more important to me than they may be to other people.

That's a solid way to go.. but if your going to be a tactical fighter WF has more to lend than dwarf...

But now with the 20th rogue changes I think for dps it really is going to be hard to beat.

Your talking Avg of 100 pts S/A damage a swing... just silly.

[tfdac]

dwarf is twofold - dont like the look of robots and i'm in an all-dwarf guild.

agree the damage is silly but this is more of a fun and flavor build for me, anyway.

[Propane]

Curious on Phenx's response to this as well, as I brought this up in a different thread recently.

Monk wind stance used to offer a haste boost. Now the haste is negated in a group with the Haste spell (caps at 15%), but offers 2.5% double-strike at tier I (lvl 1).

Monk splash is now a matter of better AC + 2.5% double-strike vs. capstone (+2 dex and cheat death, or +2 int and +4d6 sneak attack dice). Not as easy as it once was...


Don't forget the two feats!

[Aerendil]

Don't forget the two feats!

True, except the recent change to THF negated the need to really go heavily into that line if you like to move around a lot in combat.

So you could do with THF, Toughness, PA, CE, and I:Crit - which are all you *need* for this build IMO. That still leaves 2 feats to play with, and anything else is gravy :)

(ITHF, GTHF if so inclined; Cleave if you want that; Skill focus; etc.)

[The_Phenx]

Don't forget the two feats!

You don't really need the two feats.

If you are going pure rogue CE is next to worthless... since your dropping 5+ ac from the loss of monk stances ...on prey it would be 7 ac.

The argument is way deeper than just monk or no monk now.

You can get into ...is THF worthwhile anymore.. especially on a build that encourages movement?

I would say maybe... maybe not. Aerendil pretty much hit the nail on the head.

For monk splashes with the reduced saves from mobs on epic Using a vertigo +10 staff and improved trip looks to being a viable option.

I think now its going to become a max dps vs survivability and tactics argument.

By far pure rogue is going to do more damage.

I am not shure what I will do yet...AC seems to be unfortunately meaningless again. I was in reaver elite yesterday running a 76 ac, and getting hit on almost every swing. Looks like they tinkered. On epic runs Ac matters not. The only place it still counts is on low level runs.. so really who cares.

SO I may just drop the monk levels do the DPS option and be the deadliest man with a piece of dowel rod ever!!!

[The_Phenx]

Oh and Eladrin confirmed that Acrobat I change is screwey and they are investigating.

[drac317]

You don't really need the two feats.

If you are going pure rogue CE is next to worthless... since your dropping 5+ ac from the loss of monk stances ...on prey it would be 7 ac.

The argument is way deeper than just monk or no monk now.

You can get into ...is THF worthwhile anymore.. especially on a build that encourages movement?

I would say maybe... maybe not. Aerendil pretty much hit the nail on the head.

For monk splashes with the reduced saves from mobs on epic Using a vertigo +10 staff and improved trip looks to being a viable option.

I think now its going to become a max dps vs survivability and tactics argument.

By far pure rogue is going to do more damage.

I am not shure what I will do yet...AC seems to be unfortunately meaningless again. I was in reaver elite yesterday running a 76 ac, and getting hit on almost every swing. Looks like they tinkered. On epic runs Ac matters not. The only place it still counts is on low level runs.. so really who cares.

SO I may just drop the monk levels do the DPS option and be the deadliest man with a piece of dowel rod ever!!!
im with you on this,bro,think it will be the best for me since i dont do tactics,care less about ac and play more like a gaurd barb anyway:D

[drac317]

Oh and Eladrin confirmed that Acrobat I change is screwey and they are investigating.
lets hope so

[The_Phenx]

im with you on this,bro,think it will be the best for me since i dont do tactics,care less about ac and play more like a gaurd barb anyway:D

LOL thats pretty much me in a nutshell.

If I do drop AC I am going for Radiance guard and probably corrosive salt.

Stoneskin and a displacement go a long way in this game.

Not like I cant jump over and try it out... and change my mind later. Yay for +3 rez'ing. But it just wont have the same flavor...

[Aerendil]

LOL thats pretty much me in a nutshell.

If I do drop AC I am going for Radiance guard and probably corrosive salt.

Stoneskin and a displacement go a long way in this game.

Not like I cant jump over and try it out... and change my mind later. Yay for +3 rez'ing. But it just wont have the same flavor...

Radiance guards + radiance weaponry = double the fun? :p

(might not be a bad idea, actually)

[drac317]

Radiance guards + radiance weaponry = double the fun? :p

(might not be a bad idea, actually)
alredy doin that with my DT jammies and radII stick just need to build an earthgrab gaurd item to go with it

[The_Phenx]

So I took the plunge last night for testing purposes.

Re-rolled as a pure rogue. Obviously some things changed a LOT but here are the highlights

Per hit now its (1d8 + 28 (base)) +((14d6 +28)Sneak) + 2d6(holy) + 1d6(fire) +1(force)

Ya thats right 14d6+28 per HIT of S/A damage...once the acrobat I change starts working itll go to 14d6 + 39. Thats just stupid.

Base Ac went from 49 to 43... still serviceable.. barkskin and a shield wand takes it to 52...so bard and uncanny and acrobat = 65. and 70 when tumbling. (epic bracers of deftness) Still decent enough for regular quests...and AC means nothing on epic anyway.

I just went with the strait THF feats + PA + toughness + IC Blunt + Cleave... to keep the overall flavor I had before, and I really don't feel much of a difference. I suppose the other way to go would be just THF + CE + Improved trip...

Hit points went to 427 base, which is nice.

Will report back on my impressions.

[The_Phenx]

So first report.

I am definitely a bit more easily hit.... but it didn't seem cripplingly so, if I run a shield wand and a regualar bark + stoneskin its fine.

I pull aggro all the time with the increased dps... need to re-work enhancements to get some subtle backstabbing in there, mash diplo swing swing... mash

Seeing 70-90 avg for S/A damage...highest was 101... But max should be 112

Using Rahls might.. I was consistently seeing hits around 150 and crits at about 240 pts each. (everything totaled)

Kinda sick... definitely the way to go for dps...

[Aerendil]

So first report.

I am definitely a bit more easily hit.... but it didn't seem cripplingly so, if I run a shield wand and a regualar bark + stoneskin its fine.

I pull aggro all the time with the increased dps... need to re-work enhancements to get some subtle backstabbing in there, mash diplo swing swing... mash

Seeing 70-90 avg for S/A damage...highest was 101... But max should be 112

Using Rahls might.. I was consistently seeing hits around 150 and crits at about 240 pts each. (everything totaled)

Kinda sick... definitely the way to go for dps...

Very interesting, thanks for testing this out Phenx :)
We now have the defensive/AC version (splash Monk) and the dps version (pure Rogue) I guess.

The other possible benefit of going straight Rogue is that you're now not limited to pyjamas only - you *can* wear light armour if so inclined.
It'll lessen your AC even further, but as more and more epic gear is coming out it may eventually even it out. One good example I can think of is epic Vulkoorim Fighting Leathers. Empty blue and colourless slots allow for some customization, and it comes with a built-in +4 competence to-hit boost which is nice on a 3/4 BAB class such as Rogue :)

[The_Phenx]

Very interesting, thanks for testing this out Phenx :)
We now have the defensive/AC version (splash Monk) and the dps version (pure Rogue) I guess.

One good example I can think of is epic Vulkoorim Fighting Leathers.

Already have a pair of epic leathers... somewhere... in the closet.. lol

No worries on the testing.. gotta use my TP for something. Playing around with the Bracers of the demons consort. Combine those with a stoneskin guard and radiance guard... would make for a very nice combo.

Possibility every hit for a 70pt stoneskin +30 hp and blinding cursing and harming your enemy...Dunno tho.. the 50 ac is still serviceable.. might miss it too much.

[drac317]

Already have a pair of epic leathers... somewhere... in the closet.. lol.
i'm thinking this with a daggertooths belt would be nice,could hit max +12dex in armor with nimblemoves on the blue augment
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/7175/screenshot00001y.jpg (http://img41.imageshack.us/i/screenshot00001y.jpg/)

[The_Phenx]

Not bad.

I am really liking the epic bracers of deftness... 12 improved uncanny dodges.

The nice thing about that... once they get the Acrobat I change fixed.. It becomes a damage boost.

+3 to your sneak attack damage for 30 secconds 12 clicks a rest. :D

I am going to focus on putting on a guard suit of clothes... got the resist 5 last night... gonna take a bit for the rest. It may be just fine.

[Trillea]

Not bad.

I am really liking the epic bracers of deftness... 12 improved uncanny dodges.

The nice thing about that... once they get the Acrobat I change fixed.. It becomes a damage boost.

+3 to your sneak attack damage for 30 secconds 12 clicks a rest. :D

I am going to focus on putting on a guard suit of clothes... got the resist 5 last night... gonna take a bit for the rest. It may be just fine.

Unfortunately not. The Imp. Uncanny Dodge adds +6 to AC and Reflex saves, but nothing straight to DEX.

[The_Phenx]

Ehh your right...brain fart :)

[drac317]

tinkin bout tryin to get corrosive salt gaurd on my tempest tier to go with radiance gaurd then will probaly make a gs earthgrab gaurd to round it out

[The_Phenx]

Thats where I am going.. but I would rather do stoneskin guard... keep the constant dr 10 up.

The damage output is just silly.. using rahls I am constantly seeing 130+95+6 etc..

Even on non crits still looking around 130 per hit

I havent noticed myself getting beat up too terribly much more...but then again most of what I run is epic quests... and AC doesn't do much there anyway.

Raged and madstoned with a yulu pot ... Over 500 hit points :D

[Aerendil]

The damage output is just silly.. using rahls I am constantly seeing 130+95+6 etc..

Even on non crits still looking around 130 per hit

Lol.
Phenx, I think you're drunk on sneak attack damage! :)

[The_Phenx]

LOL MEBBE JUS A LITTLE ...

I like that my lil stick weilding halfy can steal aggro from a super raged greataxe weilding barb :).

Makes it hard to play my fighter sometimes.

[RuneStriker]

I need some input on how to proceed with my version of this build. Bear with me a moment as I explain where I'm coming from:

First off, the good stuff...

I loved the overall flavor of this concept and used it to create a WF version focusing more on the tactics and party utility than high AC and stright up DPS (which isn't shabby and I know not entirely in character for a WF build, but I liked the tactics enhancements and other abilities WF brought to the table for a beginner build). I avoid damage by using the long reach of the Qstaff in the WF hands (reach is just massive) and just not being there when the enemy decides to swing back because I've already moved on. His trap skills are also top-notch and he can provide the light monk party buffs so he's very well rounded. He's currently 7Rog/6Mnk/1Ftr (working to 13/6/1 final) and has thus far been an absolute blast to play even though I had no gear ready for him and have had to acquire it all as a I go.

My favorite weapon is a paralyzing qstaff and my favorite tactic is to jump, weave and run through the enemy ranks and alternate Trip, Stunning Blow and FoL while paralyzing almost everything so the rest of the party can roll through them. Even using that staff over my +10 Vertigo one, almost nothing can survive a trip attempt and I have been working on the flying trip/stun (large jump/height + slow fall/feather fall) so it lands about 85% of the time, even on the giants and dwarves of GH. I rarely have PA on because I use the speed of the attacks to do the work so damage is of less importance than always hitting as much as possible (although I do have 5 DP clickies I use to maintain top notch to-hit values).

In my guild of friends and all the PUGs I've been in people at first wonder W-T-H am I thinking, but then they see him in action and he never fails to get compliments on his versatility and party usefulness. And people always comment on how they love to watch him work with all the flashy qstaff animations and fluid motion as I move around.

That being said...

I don't think I like what U5 has done to him. I played him quite a bit this weekend and have to say that the changes have really taken the wind out of his sails (pun intended). Earlier in the week I thought it was just my perception of the changes, but after having spent some quality time with him this weekend I can definitely say he doesn't play the same. The slower attack speed now is very noticable and the lack of glancing blows while moving have really ruined the primary way that I played him. His proc rate on the effects was abysmally low unless I stood stock still and slugged it out with the enemy and in GH (especially against the Heart Horde) that mean lots of return damage for both me and my party that would not have been an issue before.

So what can I do to help him out?

I'm hoping that maybe it's just my lack of experience and gear and hopefully those more familiar with this type of play style, and the stick builds in general, can offer some insight into what I can do to help turn things around. I really hope that I don't have to relegate him to a Sun Stance + PA + boring stand still and whack things while alternatly hitting the Diplo button style of play. If wanted that I would have played a Barb or Kensai.

Or has U5 killed the quick-strike fluid style of play in favor of yet more brute force approaches to every situation?

[The_Phenx]

Well that was a very well written post.

I think you are fine.

What it seems to me is that they have done away with a little bit of swing speed (a very little bit) and stop the moving glancing blow.

SO what you would have to look at is how to replace that.

the THF feat chain has a lot less use than it used to.

For trials you could take some action based feats.

Maybe slicing blow. Maybe Improved trip? Maybe take the spring attack chain and whirlwind... since you like to move. These all work pretty well, and could help to mediate some of the issues your seeing.

Glancing blows are really minimal damage, and could be partially offset. Paralyzing will not work much past gianthold...the save is just too low.

The Proc rate on effects should have nothing to do with moving or not moving.

You can use madstone or divine power clickies... since BAB effects swing speed. at BAB 20 you should pick up 2.5% which would offset what was lost with air stance, and madstone gives a 5% faster swing rate over haste.

But yes I understand the "feeling" change...thats why I amped up my S/A damage by dropping the monk levels so I could offset all of that. I may loose the THF chain as well... not shure yet, going to do a lot of playing over the next couple weeks.

Acrobats are still VERY viable in all their iterations.

[prybar]

The Proc rate on effects should have nothing to do with moving or not moving.


I think he meant procs based on glancing blows when moving which got nerfed in U5.

I've had to adjust the way I fight by standing still more frequently to get crippling strikes and weapon effects to land. Unfortunately, that leaves me far more vulnerable to mobs like the Orthons in Amrath. Sometimes due to lag you have to stand there a lot longer than you want to have the server register that you stopped moving and get glancing blows. I've started using cleave to get the same effect that moving glancing blows used to do. Just jump in a mass of mobs, cleave, and then jump out. Cleave and Great Cleave are on separate timers. Both of them together might be enough to get that moving proc feeling back?

[RuneStriker]

I think he meant procs based on glancing blows when moving which got nerfed in U5.
Yes, that is what I meant.

I'm disappointed to hear about Paralyzing as it seemed to work pretty well in the Vale for the short jaunt I made in there with him, but perhaps the spider/ogre/wolf side is just easier than the devil area so maybe that wasn't a good test. I'm assuming I would get the same feeling of lack of "effect" when using something like Radiance II though when in the higher level content.

I was all set to take ITHF and WF Great Weapon Aptitude II (increases proc % on glancing blows even further) at lvl 15 and then GTHF at 18. Now I'm not so sure I want any of those. So I guess I have 2 feats and 2 skill points to play with.

I already have Improved Trip (took it at 9 with my fighter level) so I guess I'll have to look into going either Mobility & Spring Attack (already have Dodge as well) or Cleave & Great Cleave. I have the whole Dodge, Mobility, Spring chain on my Tempest Ranger so I know how useful that can be, but maybe I'll try some of the other feats on this build to see how they work.

I am actually ready for 15 (rank 72 currently) but never level until I am going to be capped so I have a few more ranks before I have to decide for certain. So if anyone has any further feedback for me it would be appreciated. I could post a build if that would help, but didn't want to add clutter to this already massive thread (although I do continue to re-read it occasionally in it's entirety to make sure I'm understanding all the pros and cons of the different build decisions).

Thanks for the replies.

[shablala]

Agreed... the occasional double strike is interesting...it should be +1pt s/a damage +1 ac +1 reflex save and 2.5% doublestrike chance.

Still pretty decent.

Although if I keep running epics I may just give up the monk levels and ac... since they are useless in there anyway. And take my 5d6 S/A damage from the capstone and extra rogue levels.

I am in fire stance 90% of the time. Went human, extra 30% healing amp, Jidz-Tetka bracer for another 25% healing. Already at 3hp per swing with FoL and upwards of 80+hp finisher and only lvl16. Soloing everything and anything with him.

Not sure which road to take at 20 though. LR and go pure for extra 5d6, or stay 3monk and increasing healing amp with DT armor etc.. and push 120+hp finisher. New capstone really makes this a difficult choice.

[The_Phenx]

Most certainly does... I'm running the hell out of Preying to see how I feel about being lvl 20 rogue.

So far I don't really miss the monk levels...but then again I don't really solo, and I have always played him kinda like a barbarian.

I have a strong feeling which route you take is always going to be based on your preferred playstyle.

[drac317]

trying to decide if i should drop my monk lvls before i get back to 20 or just wait also gonna do an alignment change to true nuetral .

been running with a lowered ac and didnt realize how much i missed my gaurd procs.

[The_Phenx]

heh... ya so far so good.

I threw the Icy's back on last night as was able to solo the whole SOS chain fine on casual.

I don't think I would want to do it much harder than that, but I did see a significant number of "miss" popping above my head.

So a 50 AC is still viable.

I think I will just make up a buncha guard items for running epics and leave it at that.

I am still debating what to do with the THF chain, becuase it point blank sucks now. The only time I see it working is on long boss fights where I am standing still.

Wonder what I should burn 3 feats on ... chuckle.

[drac317]

was wondering the same thing about thf.might drop em and keep my 2 toughness feats and the pastlife feat. dont really care for the dragonmarks.

[sephiroth1084]

Well, depending on how you play, you can still gain quite a bit from the THF feats.

On my end, I learned early on in DDO that I should be moving to an enemy, stopping, and then swinging as hitting early in the game is tough on the run due to the moving penalty. Tumbling also works. I tend to do a lot more running and attacking now, as I've gotten better gear and more buffs, but I find that I'm still able to get glancing blows often and in most encounters.

On my barbarian, at least, that's another 30+ damage on most hits. How much of that is from the THF chain? Without looking at the description, I want to say 2 swings' worth of glancing blows and about 10 points of damage on the base, but I may be wrong.

Certainly for boss fights where you aren't moving much (basically every single raid boss and many other, lesser bosses) that extra damage will be worthwhile. Also, if you're stunning or tripping stuff, or if it's CC'ed, it isn't running. Maybe I play a more stationary game than some others do, but I'm really not seeing how everyone is completely unable to get glancing blows anymore during normal play.

[The_Phenx]

Well think about fighting say the Kobold in the shroud... he hops around almost constantly ...as do gnolls and any other number of people.

If you do anything other than turn in place you don't get glances.

Even fighting sulu or harry your moving.

Meh

[RuneStriker]

@Seph - Sounds like a good example of where we completely differ in play styles and how the THF changes do/don't affect them.

I came from the background of a Tempest Ranger as my main, so movement during combat has always been something I've been more than used to. It is very rare for either my main or my stick user to remain in place for more than a second or two. Think of a hyperactive kid on a pogo stick with a Mtn Dew in one hand and one of those giant pixie sticks in the other and you have a good idea of how much I move at all times on those two characters. In fact I have quickly taught more than a few guild mates who run mages/clerics how to effectively use the F# keys to target party members because there is almost no way they can mouse-click on me during combat (one still doesn't have that skill down and constantly yells at me to "sit still" so they can target me - which means they do a lot of yelling because I don't sit still).

That being said, my stick build is not about the damage from the glancing blows, but the chance to land effects based off them. With the weapon scaling being the way it is, and being a WF, my reach with the staff is huge which means that in most dungeon areas I can effectively hit almost anything in a hallway while standing in the middle, and in larger rooms I usually don't have to move too far to get most things within my reach. A good jump means that even things on ledges are usually within my reach if they aren't too far back. This is compared to my buddy who runs a halfling who's staff looks like a toothpick I would use and who has to be a lot closer to targets to get them within glancing range.

The difference for me now is that in order to get the glancing effects I have to stop, target one enemy until the effect procs and then target and move on to the next, and so on, and so on. This greatly limits the mobility I can have and means that door/hall blocking and the like have been greatly reduced in effectiveness. Prior to the combat updates, I would have been able to weave through the myriad of enemies and between the speed of the staff and it's range I could almost guarantee multiple glancing blows against anything within my reach which mean they would quickly succomb to the proc effects. And those effects included things like paralyze, disruption, and destruction from the weapon itself as well as the stun and trip maneuvers. It also effectively negates the reason to take the WF Great Weapon enhancements for me because they offer nothing to the build now but were one of the reasons I chose WF over Halfling or Dwarf.

I wasn't there to be the damage dealer, I was a type of mobile crowd control and effect specialist that helped the rest of the party serve the beatdown with less hastle and return damage. Now that has been effectively removed from this character because I can't get those effects to proc often enough without stopping to focus on one enemy. From my view it's a bit like changing web and firewall for a mage to only be centered on the mage (more like BB works for clerics) instead of being able to be cast at range. They're not built to be in the center of combat to get their effects, and neither am I.

To hit is not really an issue because a few DP clickies negates any appreciable penalties vs a melee class character so I rarely have problems hitting. Especially since I wait until the main fighter has drawn the agro and then my SA bonuses make up for any movement penalties anyway.

Boss fights are kind of a moot point to the whole issue because you are keyed up on one enemy anyway so you are not about glancing blows at that point so the change really has no effect there.

So if they just reduced the amount of damage from glancing blows as a result of movement or increased the penalties for to hit in that situation, it would not have been a big deal for the character I designed and the style of play I use for him, but to remove the glancing blows altogether was a very big change and since I'm 3/4ths of the way through his build now it's hard to switch design philosophy. On my WF THF Pally it's a non-issue, but for my stick user, it's something that I'm still not sure how I want to proceed with.

[Macromancer]

New to the boards, but have been playing this build since I started DDO 4 weeks ago. To The Phenx and everyone else who has contributed to this board, thanks a million. I do love the qstaff and all the awesome rogue skills that come with this build. In PnP I loved playing rogues and I'm so glad to have finally taken the plunge in this game. I missed my old table buddies and DDO and this build has alleviated a lot of that.

Now that I've shared, let me tell you. Even at my young level, I've noticed the speed changed drastically. Also, I've used the monk skills minimally, but I think I'm not playing this character right in battle. Can I search, spot, disable, and unlock like a mad fiend and am I invaluable to parties that need a rogue...definitely!

But I don't feel I'm contributing to combat like I should. This I feel is independent of U5. I never use tumble, I think I'm playing more like a fighter (yikes!). So let me explain what I'm doing and maybe you can point out where I FAIL. I really won't mind the criticisms as I know it will make me a better player!

1) Go in with sneak
2) Hit Rogue Haste boost
3) trip, sunder main target
4) spam cleave
(in parties I hit diplomacy as needed)

I'm going to stop investing into tumble as I never use it and instead add to move silently and hide as mobs 'hear' me coming.

As you can see using 0 monk skills, but its because I wear leather armor too. I'm totally willing to go PJ's but not with my current attack sequence. Is it just my fear of the unknown? Can someone provide their attack sequence so I can learn how to optimize my character's role during fights? I'm L10 by the way. Thanks!!

[shablala]

New to the boards, but have been playing this build since I started DDO 4 weeks ago. To The Phenx and everyone else who has contributed to this board, thanks a million. I do love the qstaff and all the awesome rogue skills that come with this build. In PnP I loved playing rogues and I'm so glad to have finally taken the plunge in this game. I missed my old table buddies and DDO and this build has alleviated a lot of that.

Now that I've shared, let me tell you. Even at my young level, I've noticed the speed changed drastically. Also, I've used the monk skills minimally, but I think I'm not playing this character right in battle. Can I search, spot, disable, and unlock like a mad fiend and am I invaluable to parties that need a rogue...definitely!

But I don't feel I'm contributing to combat like I should. This I feel is independent of U5. I never use tumble, I think I'm playing more like a fighter (yikes!). So let me explain what I'm doing and maybe you can point out where I FAIL. I really won't mind the criticisms as I know it will make me a better player!

1) Go in with sneak
2) Hit Rogue Haste boost
3) trip, sunder main target
4) spam cleave
(in parties I hit diplomacy as needed)

I'm going to stop investing into tumble as I never use it and instead add to move silently and hide as mobs 'hear' me coming.

As you can see using 0 monk skills, but its because I wear leather armor too. I'm totally willing to go PJ's but not with my current attack sequence. Is it just my fear of the unknown? Can someone provide their attack sequence so I can learn how to optimize my character's role during fights? I'm L10 by the way. Thanks!!

I am assuming you have 3lvl monk. FYI mine is Human with tons of healing amp. This is how I play:

1) 90% of the time in fire stance. Gives me all the Ki I need.
2) Pick the right staff for the encounter. It's not always about dps. Even at 18 I still use paralyzer quite often. Weakening+ enfeeblement, Maladroit+Bone Breaking, Anarchis +PG, Axiomatic+PG, etc...
3) I just open with Fist of Light, because I anticipate getting hit, or to help out with HP feedback to the tank.
4) Fire + FoL + Fire in the middle of fight to keep +hit boost always on. Earth+earth+earth to increase dps. FoLx3 as needed +finisher.
5) Always give Aligning the Heavens to casters before buffs. Everyone loves it.
6)I use sneak/hide VERY rarely.
7) If I know I am reaching the mob first, I always hit Uncanny Dodge + Haste boost. Wish I had more haste boost. And if I have plenty of Ki which I do most of the time, I do Lighning+FoL+lightning Finisher for a quick 20% concealment.
8) Haste/rage potions. Love them
9) make very good use of UMD

The only mistake I made with this build is not bothering with Diplo. I didnt think that I will bed doing the kind of damage that warrant it. I thought just taking subtle enhancement would be enough. I was wrong. I easily take aggro from tanks or other dps after a few rounds of SA+haste+boost etc... So definitely planning on maxing Diplo when I LR to pure rogue.

[The_Phenx]

He said it pretty well.

Don't worry, this build is designed to play like a fighter, you just need to use the right toys to make it work. If you want to go charging in, thats ok, just use a deception weapon, rahls might, or radiance II greensteel and your a-ok.

I wanna expand on the sneak thing tho.

Totally not necessary in DDO. Aggro starts with who the mob sees first and then transfers to who does the most damage.

There is actually a point in time where the mob is deciding who to assign aggro to that he is vulnerable. IE if you run in fast enough and get him before he makes up his mind you can land a s/a on him.

Hide and Sneak are like tumble, they were just flavor elements to this build. I started with a 14 int for just that reason. So I could fill out the "fun" things, like backflips! ANd tumble does negate some falling damage. That and the 2 stat points didn't fit in well anywhere else, and it makes it a better trapsmith.

I do sneak occasionally, but this should be used to bypass mobs, not fight them, only an assassin should be fighting that way.

As for the rest.

Sunder is unnecessary, it will rarely land unless your using a weapon built for it, and that's kinda useless.

Do not bother to spam cleave. Cleave should be used upon approach since it grants a +10 to your attack bonus. During a fight unless your surrounded by 3 or more creatures you are loosing dps.

My preferred method was always uncanny...boost...cleave...diplo...work on target.

If you want more haste boost, just find a way to steal an AP or two and take extra action boost enhancement and/or you can look into getting the Kensai or Stalwart defender items from Amarath, they will grant an extra 2 per rest.

[Macromancer]

My preferred method was always uncanny...boost...cleave...diplo...work on target.

If you want more haste boost, just find a way to steal an AP or two and take extra action boost enhancement and/or you can look into getting the Kensai or Stalwart defender items from Amarath, they will grant an extra 2 per rest.

OK I've switched around and I have to tell you it feels like my enemies go down almost twice as fast. Can you believe how wrong I was playing this character? My biggest fear was the A/C loss that would happend with switching to cloth. FAIL!

So now the problem is that there is no "middle" to the fight where I'm building up enough ki to do the triple combo with finisher. Does this mean I should try and fight harder mobs now?

Yes, I immediately felt the lack of actions in between rests for uncanny dodge and haste boost. Phenx at L9 the items you mention I can't use can I? Haven't seen them in AH. I also plugged your build into DDO CharGen and am reworking as necessary to try and find those AP's to get the action enchants, but no luck yet.

[The_Phenx]

OK I've switched around and I have to tell you it feels like my enemies go down almost twice as fast. Can you believe how wrong I was playing this character?

So now the problem is that there is no "middle" to the fight where I'm building up enough ki to do the triple combo with finisher. Does this mean I should try and fight harder mobs now?


In fire stance it should help generate ki faster. But this is exactly why I never "counted" on the monk strikes, and why I don't really miss them.

The only ones I really ever used in regular combat was the FOL strike so I could heal the party a bit, or triple earth so I could see that 300+ point crit.

Fighting harder mobs with more hp's comes once you venture to harder areas, and you will have absolutely no problem generating KI at that point, it also becomes more necessary to weaken and disable your opponents, becasue they hit back a LOT harder.



Yes, I immediately felt the lack of actions in between rests for uncanny dodge and haste boost. Phenx at L9 the items you mention I can't use can I? Haven't seen them in AH. I also plugged your build into DDO CharGen and am reworking as necessary to try and find those AP's to get the action enchants, but no luck yet.

AP's are kinda hard to come by for the build.. its a very tight fit. Probably halfling guile is the best place to steal from, or the halfling luck enhancements.

Sadly those items don't come into play until lvl 16 or so. They drop from the Amarath series, and are Bound. Between those adn the enhancements I think you can get to 9 boosts per rest? In the meanwhile you can learn to use boosts a lil better. Don't hit a boost for 1 or two mobs. Train a few together till you can make good use of it... etc etc.

[Fionivar]

Hey, any acrobats on Lamannia that can confirm this patch fixes the Dex to SA bug? Not mentioned in the patch notes.. but no bug are really in the notes.

[Spoonman457]

@ The Phenx: I'm thinking of trying this with a wf, but the stats I can get (32pt) are:

15 STR
15 DEX
14 CON
14 INT
12 WIS
6 CHA

Are these stats any good?
and since FoL and healing ki do so little for a wf, is the 3rd lvl of monk worth it on a wf? not having it means more skill points (not that this build needs them) other than that it only loses the fire/light/fire buff (no light path), am I missing something? or will leaving off the 3rd monk lvl weaken the build?

I plan on taking enhancements in the order laid out in your build just choosing the wf ones instead of halfling (I was thinking, healers friend I, wf PA II or III, and maybe wf CON I or II) will this work?

And I noticed that there were a few posts that the dex to q-staffs thingy was bugged, is it fixed, and is there any idea when it will be fixed?

btw I choose wf for their immunities, and greater reach, and PA enhancements

thanks in advance for your reply!!!! (its always good to hear what the massively uber famous builders think of my ideas and personal tweaks!:))

THE Spoonman

[The_Phenx]

Stats look pretty solid.

Gonna give you about 447 hp when your all geared up.

looking at a 32-34 str and 28 dex (30 with lotsa epic gear)

Probably a 20 wis... maybe 22 at most...

3rd tier monk gives light or dark path. The main reason I took light was for healing KI, and the earth light earth...water light water buffs. Since they were a great addition in Tower of Despair.

Do you need them? Not at all. I didn't "need" them. They were just a nice addition since there was no acro III.

That being said 18 rogue does nothing over 17 rogue, other than a boatload of skill points. Rouge levels are best left at odd numbers.

Me personally if you are not going 20 rogue... a 17 rogue 2 monk 1 ranger could be really fun. You would get some bab, Ranger sprint boost (awesome) and the first tier of favored enemy.

As far as wf PA enhancements. Just be mindful of your To hit... it may get too low to be serviceable... but not till you hit Amarath when monster ac gets insane.

Now word yet from Eladrin on the Acrobat fix. I ask him about once a week or so. I will assume there are bigger fish to fry.

Massively uber famous... <chuckle>

[The_Phenx]

Some fun news.

Looks like we are getting a new quarterstaff.

Mind you this was taken down from the wiki, but theres a screenshot so it did happen.

Wonder if it will make it to live.

http://inlinethumb05.webshots.com/15044/2793724030051410291S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2793724030051410291lnpDaY)

[Fionivar]

The Base Soul Eater is really good for its level. Like really good. If it's unchanged from the test server.

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp56/teth_01/ScreenShot00020.jpg

[The_Phenx]

THat could be fantastic... if it retains mortal strike and its a workable dc....I wonder what the actual release versions are going to be.

[Fionivar]

Just went testing sneak attack.. did not see a change with added dex. Can anyone else confirm? Sigh, Eladrin is such a tease..

[drac317]

Just went testing sneak attack.. did not see a change with added dex. Can anyone else confirm? Sigh, Eladrin is such a tease..
nope,dosent look like its workin

[Trillea]

According to Eladrin this is under investigation:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=258322

[Quarterling]

So I was wondering something...

It is confirmed that Thief-Acrobat III will eventually be available, so will you be changing your build to Rogue 18/Monk 2?

[The_Phenx]

It all honestly depends on what Acrobat III is.

If I go back to multiclassing It wont be lower than 17 rogue. Maybe :D

I may stay 20 rogue just becuase I love the additional dps. Seeing normally between 70 and 90 per hit just in S/A damage. Once dex damage starts applying... looking at over 100 a swing. So far I gotta say I only miss the AC occasionally.


And nope dex damage is not applying EVERYONE MAKE SURE TO BUG REPORT IT!!! the more people that do, the better chance of it being fixed.

[greybucket]

Ok, I've rolled the char (currently lvl6) just as the build states in the first post. I was disheartened to find out that after reading all 53 pages of this thread that the 3 monk levels aren't as great as originally planned due to the changes in U5. I am really considering taking out the monk levels and going pure rogue at this point but I may hold out a couple more levels to decide.

I came across this thread a while back when looking for a new build and I immediately skipped over it due to having a splash of monk. I really hate the way most of the outfits look and Icy Rainments were the only outfit that looked decent to me. I ended up rolling an Exploiter and got him up to lvl12 but never understood how to get his AC to a decent number (plus, with it being my first toon, I never had the funds to keep him geared properly). So I made a Sorcerer and he is currently at lvl12 but I was missing getting to jump in and fight and decided to give this build a shot.

I really like it a lot! Really fun and I just like the idea of fighting with a weapon bigger than I am. Also, since I don't have a ton of plat, fighting with one weapon instead of two seems easier to gear.

After reading through everything, the thought of going pure rogue is weighing heavily on my mind. To me, going 17/3 and doing less damage than a pure rogue seems the best way to go due to not pulling aggro as much and having the extra AC there when you do. But I have not been playing all that long and don't know the ins and outs of what's best end game.

I still really like the idea behind this build and will con't to play this char, just trying to decide which path to take. It looks as if I decided to try this build at a bad time due to what U5 did.

Phenx, could you please post a version of the build going the pure rogue route, possibly listing the pros and cons for each like what one would be gaining or losing by taking one over the other. I am sure I read the differences along the way, but don't feel like trudging back through the 53 pages to find what I am looking for.

[Erdams]

Quick question with Ninja Spy out there is 13/6/1 just as viable as 17/3? you now only loose 1d6 but gain higher attack speed and a few other perks from monk 6 and airstance rank 2?

So you would go acrobat 2, ninja spy 1 or am i missing something? hehe If I where to try this build would you recommend WF or Halfling?

[The_Phenx]

Quick question with Ninja Spy out there is 13/6/1 just as viable as 17/3? you now only loose 1d6 but gain higher attack speed and a few other perks from monk 6 and airstance rank 2?

So you would go acrobat 2, ninja spy 1 or am i missing something? hehe If I where to try this build would you recommend WF or Halfling?

13/6/1 acrobat II ninja spy I is certainly really cool. You gain no attackspeed form air stance II. You get a double strike chance.

Halfling for more sneak attack damage and better ac. Warforged for more con and immunities + f tactics.

The choice is kinda yours. But I wanted to max out dex and S/A

Between the halfling guile line and the +2 to dex... its 9 damage a swing difference and +4 to hit (while in S/A mode)

[Fionivar]

Quick question with Ninja Spy out there is 13/6/1 just as viable as 17/3? you now only loose 1d6 but gain higher attack speed and a few other perks from monk 6 and airstance rank 2?

So you would go acrobat 2, ninja spy 1 or am i missing something? hehe If I where to try this build would you recommend WF or Halfling?

From what I remember reading, if you take Acrobat, it locks out Ninja Spy. Unless they fixed that issue, the two PrC's are mutually exclusive. Anyone that has done both, feel free to contradict me.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=255078

[The_Phenx]

Phenx, could you please post a version of the build going the pure rogue route, possibly listing the pros and cons for each like what one would be gaining or losing by taking one over the other. I am sure I read the differences along the way, but don't feel like trudging back through the 53 pages to find what I am looking for.

I haven't permanently decided against giving up the monk levels thats why I haven't posted anything. :)

Just experimenting.

The 3 monk levels is still very strong. The only real loss that U5 brought was a 2.5% reduction in swing speed and replaced that with a 2.5% chance for a double strike.

I was just testing if the 5d6 of S/A damage from going 20 rogue is worthwhile. The damage is nice, but I do miss my monk levels a bit.

The only thing I did to replace the monk levels was literally just take rogue. Same feats etc. I just skipped a couple. No skill focus umd, and no combat expertise.

[Lunzatis]

I had a monk 3 rogue 1 character that I just lesser reincarnated to try this build out. What would you suggest for stats, feats, enhancements, etc. The reason I did this is because I recently got Rahl's Might from the Inspired Quarters series. Anyone suggestions would be helpful. I also have the witching hour from shadow crypt for this character to use. Thanks.

[Trillea]

In Update 7 they are changing it so you can go acrobat/ninja spy:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=265095

This bodes well.. :D

[The_Phenx]

It bodes very well... seems that a new way to do a monkrobat will be coming, that pre combo will be very strong. Of course depending on what acrobat III is :D

[spiritor]

anyone else having a problem with the quarterstaff from catacombs?
As in it gets damaged very quickly, sometimes i barely make it in 4 rooms and its gone from 100 to 1-23 durability

[The_Phenx]

I had a monk 3 rogue 1 character that I just lesser reincarnated to try this build out. What would you suggest for stats, feats, enhancements, etc. The reason I did this is because I recently got Rahl's Might from the Inspired Quarters series. Anyone suggestions would be helpful. I also have the witching hour from shadow crypt for this character to use. Thanks.

If you have 32 point builds available.. the stats are in the scroll menu on the main post.

If its 28 pt they are in the FAQ section :)

If you have a question outside fo that realm.. fire away.

[The_Phenx]

anyone else having a problem with the quarterstaff from catacombs?
As in it gets damaged very quickly, sometimes i barely make it in 4 rooms and its gone from 100 to 1-23 durability

Havent noticed, never actually owned that staff...got enough stuff to do the addy ritual on it?

[Lunzatis]

Is there a 13 rogue/7 monk version of this build? If not what would you suggest to do with that build. Thanks.

[The_Phenx]

Is there a 13 rogue/7 monk version of this build? If not what would you suggest to do with that build. Thanks.

There are a several running around... dunno if anyone has posted.

Just keep your core rogue skills maxed, drop level up's to str. should be pretty cut and dry.

[spiritor]

Addy ritual? :)

[The_Phenx]

Addy ritual? :)

http://ddowiki.com/page/Stone_of_Change_-_Recipes

Adamantine ritual in the stone of change :)

[Muldamai]

Question about a big variance of this build, how about 12 rogue/ 8 fighter? Going acrobat 2/ Kensai 1, and I am looking at all the plusses to hit along with feats out the ying-yang. What do I give up compared to what you have? I haven't Monk'd much so just curious.

[The_Phenx]

Question about a big variance of this build, how about 12 rogue/ 8 fighter? Going acrobat 2/ Kensai 1, and I am looking at all the plusses to hit along with feats out the ying-yang. What do I give up compared to what you have? I haven't Monk'd much so just curious.

AC ... all the monk stances... Fists of light... about 4d6 of s/a damage a hit...quite a bit actually. If you want to go for max dps as an acrobat your better off maxing out sneak attack damage doing 20 rogue or doing to ninja spy/acrobat.

If you just really wanna be kensai acrobat.. then what the hell why not lol, but you never want to end rogue on 12.. 13 is the magic number.

[The_Phenx]

So after being pure rogue for quite a while, and missing my extra ac.

Preying is a lot more deadly, but more vulnerable.

Now with the type of questing I do, this is the preferred setup, but for folks not chain running epics I would recommend staying with the monk splash. That ac and strikes will serve you well.

When the Acrobat I dex damage gets fixed I will probably go to a 19/1, and then re-evaluate again when Acrobat III releases.

[The_Phenx]

JOY!

Finally got my encrusted ring. I am now a fernzied rogue!

Put +3 exceptional str on it.. Now at a 32 str... +34 TH +33damage Base.

:D

[drac317]

so still no fix for dex to SA? mabye its a good thing my comp is down. hopefully it'll be fixed by the time i get back on.

[Quarterling]

It all honestly depends on what Acrobat III is.

If I go back to multiclassing It wont be lower than 17 rogue. Maybe :D

I may stay 20 rogue just becuase I love the additional dps. Seeing normally between 70 and 90 per hit just in S/A damage. Once dex damage starts applying... looking at over 100 a swing. So far I gotta say I only miss the AC occasionally.

I rolled up one with a bit different configuration. I always wanted to get good AC on my pure halfling rogue assassin, but it's a stretch to get to high 60's.

So far I'm 8 rogue/2 monk (I'm only taking two monk) and having a great time with him. In addition to power attack, I also took CE for extra AC if I ever feel like going for that.

[Spoonman457]

I've been away for a couple of weeks, has the bug with dex to damage been fixed? did they fix it with U6?

[The_Phenx]

I've been away for a couple of weeks, has the bug with dex to damage been fixed? did they fix it with U6?

No fix yet...Eladrin has stated he hopes to have it done for U7...looks like he is squeezing it in between what the higher ups want him to be working on.

[Emizand]

13/6/1 acrobat II ninja spy I is certainly really cool. You gain no attackspeed form air stance II. You get a double strike chance.


Ninja I requires monk tumble II. Acrobat I requires rogue tumble II. Sad, would have been a nice combination.

[The_Phenx]

They are also talking about fixing those kind of irregularities... just making.. TUMBLE...

[The_Phenx]

Finally got the upgraded dreamspitter... The holy rocks.. bypasses evil outsiders dr very nicely.

And got a soul eater... seems to work fairly well (in the desert)... kinda a neat toy, at low levels its very very nice.

[Ethiel]

Ok now you are showing off :)

I have run reavers over and over and no dream spitter.....and i ran the new stuff a few times nothing....

ARGHHH!!

I can't pull a rhal's might to save my backside either....but I made my Min II in like 10 runs of the shroud so i guess it is Karma.

[The_Phenx]

Ok now you are showing off :)

I have run reavers over and over and no dream spitter.....and i ran the new stuff a few times nothing....

ARGHHH!!

I can't pull a rhal's might to save my backside either....but I made my Min II in like 10 runs of the shroud so i guess it is Karma.

Heh... took 5 runs of the end quest from the new stuff to get it.

18 runs of reaver for the dreamspitter, and then all the time getting pieces to upgrade it...which sucked.

Rahls might.. 2 runs... thanks guildies :)

Already have the scroll for the epic soul eater... just needs the other bits now.. and im good to go.

[prybar]

Ninja I requires monk tumble II. Acrobat I requires rogue tumble II. Sad, would have been a nice combination.

The way skill enhancements work for prereqs is due to change in U7.

[qxface]

What are good stopping points for skills with this build?
Do you need to max balance if you're immune to knockdown?
I think jump has a cap, right? How much jump do you need in order to reach that?
A high tumble let's you do sweet backflips, but do those acutally do anything for you or do they just look cool? How much tumble do you need to get said sweet backflips?

Thanks for posting this cool build!

[The_Phenx]

SKills?

Max out rogue skills.

Balance mid 30's to 40's (when buffed & item'd) will keep you happy... and remember to calculate in your acrobat bonuses when doing so. Balance helps with battling the WF Titans you are not immune to their hammer smash knockdown which is an environmental effect.

Jump cap is 40. If I remember right I set the values right in the builder to save points here. Remember standard jump buffs are 30pt...so you really dont need much jump unless you wanna run around unbuffed.

Tumble = cool back flips which do nothing other than look cool but it also mitigates falling damage, and there is no limit to this. I have had 102 tumble in Reaver and taken like 2 pts of damage from his anti gravity. Tumble points are 32 for back flips 36 for front... you can use buffs and items to reach this.

And thanks :)

[drac317]

I have had 102 tumble in Reaver and taken like 2 pts of damage from his anti gravity.
118 and took NO dmg:D and remember the dex from showtime adds in on top of the static bonuses.

[Eladrin]

No fix yet...Eladrin has stated he hopes to have it done for U7...looks like he is squeezing it in between what the higher ups want him to be working on.
Consider it squozen.

U7: Rogue Thief Acrobat I now correctly adds its dexterity bonus damage when sneak attacking while using a quarterstaff.

[Trillea]

Consider it squozen.

U7: Rogue Thief Acrobat I now correctly adds its dexterity bonus damage when sneak attacking while using a quarterstaff.

AWESOME!!

Thank you SOOO much!

[Samadhi]

Now if we could just get an official comment on what the definitive speed increases were w/ QStaves at Acro I and II

[Eladrin]

Now if we could just get an official comment on what the definitive speed increases were w/ QStaves at Acro I and II
10% per tier.

[The_Phenx]

Consider it squozen.

U7: Rogue Thief Acrobat I now correctly adds its dexterity bonus damage when sneak attacking while using a quarterstaff.

Thanks Eladrin.... Much Kudo's to you good sir.

I will drop the info into the other threads going on about the same stuff.

And a confirmation on speeds... sweeet! :D

[Samadhi]

10% per tier.

Appreciate the info a lot man, thanks. I have never understood the general "silence" on basic game mechanics, but letting us know here IS better than nothing.

[M.ham]

10% per tier.

Since you are feeling generous... how about providing some info on Acrobat III.

Please...

M.

[drac317]

wow, something in writing!!

will wonders never cease?:D

[IronClan]

Was going to roll up a ninja Spy II Acrobat I (in anticipation of the Enhancement changes that will allow it in mod 7) when I double checked and was disappointed to realize that weapon finesse does not apply to Q-staffs... (could have sworn P&P finesse applied but that could have been a (good, logical) house rule or maybe AD&D, where I recall Monks could also be True N. unlike DDO..)... Seems odd to have dex mod add to damage (when they get it working) when the weapon is only useful on a strength build...

Oh well... probably end up using wraps and short swords for crit effects, and maybe go Elf AA...Archery is very within concept I've already thrown WSS out due to the attractiveness of going finesse... And yes it's a "concept build" Ninja so I'm already making non optimal decisions, no need to point that out. But this is making it a "just missed by this >.< much" thing... Shuiken's, Bows, Short Swords, ... just gonna miss out on acrobat + Q staffs because staffs are Str based...

I'd love to see them turn Acrobat into something slightly less pigeon holed and give them throwing weapons (which are obviously very fitting) and short sword buffs and apply the (fixed) Dex mod bonus to damage to all those.

[drac317]

Was going to roll up a ninja Spy II Acrobat I (in anticipation of the Enhancement changes that will allow it in mod 7) when I double checked and was disappointed to realize that weapon finesse does not apply to Q-staffs... (could have sworn P&P finesse applied but that could have been a (good, logical) house rule or maybe AD&D, where I recall Monks could also be True N. unlike DDO..)... Seems odd to have dex mod add to damage (when they get it working) when the weapon is only useful on a strength build...
finesse has never applied to staves,and most acrobat builds can hit a 30+str and a 30+dex pretty easily so the bonus is useful when paired with all the other ways to add in SA dmg

[The_Phenx]

Eladrin et. all have repeatedly said that they view staffs in this game as the english variety. Which explains the non finesse.

A str based ninjaspy acrobat would be stronger than a dex based one anyway.

Dex only adds to sneak attack damage.. which makes sense... skills to hit vital spots more precisely, and helps balance acros against the twf type rogues.

acrobat isnt pidgeon holed.. they get great bouses and immunities, just are good at using staffs. I would love to see all the bonuses apply to stafffs and throwing daggers.

Would be nice flavor for a circus performer, and could be the start to a great thrower type halfling build... but for that to really be successful it Eladrin would have to put in two weapon throwing... one in each hand.

[Arlathen]

Can I just run this past you guys?

Thief-Acrobat is a competance bonus to attack speed?
And Monk Wind Stance is an Enhancement bonus to attack speed?

So, the overall bonus with Wind Stance 2 would be 100% * 0.8 * 0.9 = 72%, thus a 28% increase in attack speed.

The build I'm currently toying with is a Rogue 12 / Monk 6 / Paladin 2 build atm, although I may just go Rogue 13 / Monk 7... working it through build planning spreadsheets.. depends if I want more SA or defensive benfits from Paladin.

Heh, will be a Drow with 15/16/12/11/12/12 starting stats...

[The_Phenx]

Wind stand is no longer a speed boost. It grants double strike chances.

Currently acrobat is the only attack speed enhancement in the game.. other than action boosts.

It was confirmed to be 10% each level by Eladrin.

[Arlathen]

Wind stand is no longer a speed boost. It grants double strike chances.

Currently acrobat is the only attack speed enhancement in the game.. other than action boosts.

It was confirmed to be 10% each level by Eladrin.

Wind stance enhancement has two parts..
- An enhancement bonus to attack speed (Same bonus type as Haste and doesnt stack with said spell)
- An Insight bonus chance to Double strike

Wind stance definitly definitly does increase attck speed, I have two toons already running with a Monk 7 multiclass mix that enjoy the 10% enhancement bonus to attack speed all the time :)

Any comments on the suggested build ?..... (Drow Rogue12/Monk6/Pal2)...

[t0r012]

Can I just run this past you guys?

Thief-Acrobat is a competance bonus to attack speed?
And Monk Wind Stance is an Enhancement bonus to attack speed?

So, the overall bonus with Wind Stance 2 would be 100% * 0.8 * 0.9 = 72%, thus a 28% increase in attack speed.

The build I'm currently toying with is a Rogue 12 / Monk 6 / Paladin 2 build atm, although I may just go Rogue 13 / Monk 7... working it through build planning spreadsheets.. depends if I want more SA or defensive benfits from Paladin.

Heh, will be a Drow with 15/16/12/11/12/12 starting stats...

unless I am mistaken (entirely possible) the math would go like this
1 * 1.2 * 1.1 = 32% increase in attack speed.
=====

about the pally splash w/drow, what are you trying to get out of it? being centered as a monk you attack with full bab for monk levels so you aren;t gaining anything there, you give up level 13 for rogue and thus another d6 of sa dmg , you lose the halfling SA enhs and give up wholeness of body , which is pretty big along with the chance for the halfling Dmarks if you decide to skip the THF line.
So what is left a lay on hands, pally toughnessI and cha bonus to saves.

I'm not knocking it just wondering what you line of thought is.
The other thing I'm wondering about is the low int which isn't a great idea in my opinion giving up the skill points and the search/disable bonus of Int mod on the 2 skills that can be make or break, if you can't find it you can't disable it (search) and if you catch a bad roll you blow up the box (DD)

[The_Phenx]

Wind stance enhancement has two parts..
- An enhancement bonus to attack speed (Same bonus type as Haste and doesnt stack with said spell)
- An Insight bonus chance to Double strike

Wind stance definitly definitly does increase attck speed, I have two toons already running with a Monk 7 multiclass mix that enjoy the 10% enhancement bonus to attack speed all the time :)

Any comments on the suggested build ?..... (Drow Rogue12/Monk6/Pal2)...

Exactly... but a attack speed bonus that doesn't stack with haste is useless past 4th level. Haste pots and clickies and casters are always available, and are a higher bonus. The double strike chance is nice, but sun stance might be more useful all around for you, unless your worried about AC.

As far as the build goes. You never want to drop below 13 rogue... you will loose out on a granted class feat. Which at 13th should be evasion...improved evasion...crippling strike. You should play with going ninja spy I acrobat II.

Not sure about the drow.. I assume for the extra starting cha? You will loose +1 to hit +1 to all saves, the whole halfling guile line. Warforged and Halfling are the best for this build. But obviously your call.

Con looks a little low.. especially considering you will be in wind stance.. and loose another 2 right there... might nuke your HP to much. I would drop wis and cha down by 1 and round them back out with a +1 tome, and put those points into con.

My $.02

[Arlathen]

Thanks for the input guys, it's nice to be challenged over choices and get some real feedback :)

Firstly, I'm looking to build a QuarterstFf fighting character to complement my partners character, a Halfling pure Rogue assassin.

Firstly, the drow choice. This is more for flavour really, there's not many running around and it's gives a blue skinned elf to play with :)

Secondly, with starting stats of 10 in Dex, Int and Cha I thought this would lend itself more to a defensive orientated Staff fighter build, if I included Paladin 2.

So effectively, I gain +1 to all saves and +1 UMD from being Drow, and still get my racial bonus Dex enhancement.

The Paladin provides some nice bonuses ~ The + to all saves I think really help boost Fort and Will saves, by my guesstimate this should put me around 32/40/34 with the appeopiate +5 resists and greater heroism. I also gain the extra +1 Aura AC, again by my reckoning I can hit 70 AC in combat Expertise mode. Lastly, I get a significant boost in HP through The toughness enhancement and the extra HPs from Paladin over Monk or Rogue.

Significantly, with only a charisma item equipped I think I can hit a standing UMD of 32/33, which allows for a decent range of scroll buffs on the fly without the need for swapping equipment. I can for example throw myself a firestorms as necessary.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the losses on not taking eithe Rogue 13 or Monk 7, I just have an inkling that for my intended play this may work for me.

Lastly, just a note on the Haste issue - outside of raids, getting haste in PuGs is like getting blood out of a stone. And to be honest, the additional 5% speed isn't tremendously noticeable. A static 10% on top of the Acrobat 20% is extremely enjoyable I think, especially when you chuck on your own 30% haste boost.

You'll notice my other two capped toons have wind stance 2, and for me it feels like I'm back to decent speed with this on after update 5. Without it, it feels like molasses...

That's just a observational playing point of view, not a optimising point.

[tat0010]

Wow thats a long thread.. O_o Thanks The_Phenx for the info and putting it all together.
Looks like a fun build.
To all those who love cookie cutter builds, WoW is full of em... Just leave your imagination at the door. :D

[The_Phenx]

Wow thats a long thread.. O_o Thanks The_Phenx for the info and putting it all together.
Looks like a fun build.
To all those who love cookie cutter builds, WoW is full of em... Just leave your imagination at the door. :D


Holy CR*P you read the whole thing?

I was honestly thinking of starting a new thread... mebbe get the other acrobats to post up their builds in there... kinda make a all in one stop shop for all things stick related...

Anyone have a build template for a 13/6/1 or a 13/7???

[Arlathen]

Anyone have a build template for a 13/6/1 or a 13/7???

Assuming the 13/7 Is rogue/monk respectively, whats the 1 in 13/6/1 ?

[The_Phenx]

Seen everything from 1 fighter.. to 1 ranger... ranger is a nice choice for run speed boost and a tier of favored enemy...etc...

[Arlathen]

Seen everything from 1 fighter.. to 1 ranger... ranger is a nice choice for run speed boost and a tier of favored enemy...etc...

Interesting...

Next you'll be telling me you've seen a Bard Quarterstaff build :D:rolleyes::D

[t0r012]

Assuming the 13/7 Is rogue/monk respectively, whats the 1 in 13/6/1 ?

as stated before 13rogue/6monk/1 anything really

but I toyed with another
13rogue/6fighter/1monk
wind or sun I/kensai I /acrobat II

mostly for
Kensei Quarterstaff Mastery I
but the extra diplomacy, concentration, and ki generation aren't bad, neither is the extra action boost. plus the extra fighter HP's per level and str enh are welcome, and who doesn't want extra combat feats?

haven't built it yet as i'm too chicken with <fingers crossed> acroIII still to come.
some nice synergy but not sure if it is worth giving up monk 7 for thats a tough pill to swallow. Can't say as I like giving up rogue 19 on a 19/1 build(like my current in progress).

[The_Phenx]

that /1 is the hard part for me... loosing 4d6 damage a swing... of course it'll be easier to deal with once the dex damage applies.

[Arlathen]

I took the easy route over the whole /1 thing...

I decided I wanted a Paladin to be a bit "goody two shoes" and thought heck lets turn that /1 into a /2 for the Cha Saves bonus :D

PS Furyen, my abortive Staff cleric build, got deleted, and Furyen, the Staff Rogue/Monk/Paladin got rolled.

Mmmm, twinkage, stepped off the Airship at level 4 and put a +1 Flaming Densewood Quarterstaff of Pure Good straight into his hands along with a Outfit of Moderate Fortification and said "Hello Korthos! Now where's my Angers Gift set?....."

[t0r012]

I took the easy route over the whole /1 thing...

I decided I wanted a Paladin to be a bit "goody two shoes" and thought heck lets turn that /1 into a /2 for the Cha Saves bonus :D

PS Furyen, my abortive Staff cleric build, got deleted, and Furyen, the Staff Rogue/Monk/Paladin got rolled.

Mmmm, twinkage, stepped off the Airship at level 4 and put a +1 Flaming Densewood Quarterstaff of Pure Good straight into his hands along with a Outfit of Moderate Fortification and said "Hello Korthos! Now where's my Angers Gift set?....."

for korthos and the harbor plus a bit an invulnerability outfit/robe rocks
and shock of bleed wraps do wonders on Oozes

[AylinIsAwesome]

Anyone have a build template for a 13/6/1 or a 13/7???

I tried to set up a Rogue 13/Fighter 6/Monk 1 build focusing on Stunning Blow...

It was great in my head... But the AP requirements killed the idea. :(

[Dartwick]

With the 12rogue/6fighter/2monk losing the 13th level of rogue doesnt kill you because you you tend to focus on straight up damage probably using min 2 over radiance.

[The_Phenx]

Ya but an acrobats main damage comes from S/A.

I will see #rs like 45 + 87 + 6 + 10 + 1 (etc) Per swing

The 87 being sneak attacks, which usually range from 70-95.

[drac317]

Interesting...

Next you'll be telling me you've seen a Bard Quarterstaff build :D:rolleyes::D

i have seen one, she said she was bored.

13rog/6bard/1barb....acroII/warchanterI

not conventional but was fun to run with

[Dartwick]

No we have covered this before.

The way YOU build the damage comes from SA.

If you go the Kensai 1 route and take different enhancements and use Min 2 instead of radience you get you get your primary damage from straight up melees(which is good because you catch a fair bit of of argo) and the SA damage is a significant bonus when you get it.

There are are situational advantages to both builds.

[The_Phenx]

Yes Yes I know...

Just curious what kind of numbers your putting down?

[Ebforest60]

I have a lowbie (level5) halfling based on Phenx's build but I'm thinking about reworking it, pending a few questions.

1) can you use monk's Stunning Fist while weilding a quarter staff?
2) can you use the Dark Monk's Touch of Death attack while weilding a quarter staff?

My thinking is that I already have played a rogue to pretty high level (16 currently) and I'd like to try a more straight forward approach to damage (instead of sneak attack.) I do, however, really like the quarter staff as a weapon and Acrobat seems the way to go if you want to use it.

I'm interested in seeing some of these 13/6/1 and other builds that people have come up with.

[t0r012]

I have a lowbie (level5) halfling based on Phenx's build but I'm thinking about reworking it, pending a few questions.

1) can you use monk's Stunning Fist while weilding a quarter staff?
2) can you use the Dark Monk's Touch of Death attack while weilding a quarter staff?

My thinking is that I already have played a rogue to pretty high level (16 currently) and I'd like to try a more straight forward approach to damage (instead of sneak attack.) I do, however, really like the quarter staff as a weapon and Acrobat seems the way to go if you want to use it.

I'm interested in seeing some of these 13/6/1 and other builds that people have come up with.


no on both questions

[The_Phenx]

I would like to see some of the other builds posted up. Gotta convince everyone to do builder templates tho.

Stunning blow works with a staff... but your dc's are going to be too low to make it worthwhile, unless you do a warforged tactics build, and use a +10 stunner.

[Sickle]

waiting for half orc to come out to make a imp trip/stunning blow acrobat, very curious how well it will work

[Azuarc]

I dreamed up the idea of a Ninja-Acrobat, and then remembered this thread and read the last 10 pages or so. I am, however, a noob that has no concept of endgame or really anything past level 10.

My first question, which I've already seen answered, is why nobody is considering a 12/6 split for Acrobat 2 and NS

My second question, since I'm not highly versed in monk, is that if we suppose that we include at least 6 monk levels, how much of a benefit is there in going light vs dark? Obviously at monk-3, fists of light are very nice. At monk-6 we offset that with ninja spy I. At that point, is there a "better" option? The ninja spy seems neat as an alternative, but is it actually worthwhile?


My third question is if it's even necessary for rogue to be the primary class. Let's suppose, hypothetically for a second, that we aren't consistently getting sneak attacks. What does going to level 13 from 6 get us? -- 10% movement, 10% atk speed, 4d6 on SA (3d6 if we go to 7,) and a few minor enhancements. Can we put those 6-7 levels somewhere else where it's more beneficial? I mean, yes, you can say hypothetically why rogue at all then, but I'm not denying the usefulness of having 6 levels of rogue in other regards, and 10% is still 10%. Replacing that once is a lot more possible than replacing it twice. A monk-12 rogue-6 X-2 build has it's own list of interestingnesses to it, but ultimately I don't think it makes up the difference from rogue-12 monk-6 X-2. (OK, one of those X's is a 13th rogue.)

But are there other arrangements? A more strategic combatant, along the lines of FGT-12/ROG-7/MNK-1 could do something interesting things with the build. The DPS wouldn't be as high, but it would still be ok. Meanwhile you have a ton of feats for all manner of odd things, using trips, stunning blows, etc. Am I being completely ridiculous?...I could be even worse. I tend to be a cleric lover, but an RS2 build doesn't even resemble what this thread set out to do originally. And, as I prefaced the post with, I'm also a noob.


Thanks for listening to my lunacy~

[Angelus_dead]

My first question, which I've already seen answered, is why nobody is considering a 12/6 split for Acrobat 2 and NS
Acrobat and Ninja are mutually exclusive enhancements. It is impossible for one character to have both.

This has been announced as probably changing in an imminent patch. (However, if you did have 6 monk levels and were going around centered, then light buffs would probably be more helpful for your group than whatever Ninja brings you)

[The_Phenx]

I dreamed up the idea of a Ninja-Acrobat, and then remembered this thread and read the last 10 pages or so. I am, however, a noob that has no concept of endgame or really anything past level 10.

My first question, which I've already seen answered, is why nobody is considering a 12/6 split for Acrobat 2 and NS

My second question, since I'm not highly versed in monk, is that if we suppose that we include at least 6 monk levels, how much of a benefit is there in going light vs dark? Obviously at monk-3, fists of light are very nice. At monk-6 we offset that with ninja spy I. At that point, is there a "better" option? The ninja spy seems neat as an alternative, but is it actually worthwhile?


My third question is if it's even necessary for rogue to be the primary class. Let's suppose, hypothetically for a second, that we aren't consistently getting sneak attacks. What does going to level 13 from 6 get us? -- 10% movement, 10% atk speed, 4d6 on SA (3d6 if we go to 7,) and a few minor enhancements. Can we put those 6-7 levels somewhere else where it's more beneficial? I mean, yes, you can say hypothetically why rogue at all then, but I'm not denying the usefulness of having 6 levels of rogue in other regards, and 10% is still 10%. Replacing that once is a lot more possible than replacing it twice. A monk-12 rogue-6 X-2 build has it's own list of interestingnesses to it, but ultimately I don't think it makes up the difference from rogue-12 monk-6 X-2. (OK, one of those X's is a 13th rogue.)

But are there other arrangements? A more strategic combatant, along the lines of FGT-12/ROG-7/MNK-1 could do something interesting things with the build. The DPS wouldn't be as high, but it would still be ok. Meanwhile you have a ton of feats for all manner of odd things, using trips, stunning blows, etc. Am I being completely ridiculous?...I could be even worse. I tend to be a cleric lover, but an RS2 build doesn't even resemble what this thread set out to do originally. And, as I prefaced the post with, I'm also a noob.


Thanks for listening to my lunacy~

There are LOTS of ways to skin a cat... the trick is to do it as efficiently as possible.

Preying was designed to be the highest S/A dps acrobat in game, and when played right is kinda ridiculous. But his dps falls off when he angers people too much.

Now there are other types of acrobat builds.

The two most popular ones are either 13/7 and 13/6/1(rogue/monk, rogue/monk/fighter) while not as high in the dps from S/A apply more direct damage... so they are better when you have aggro. They also tend to be better at tactics. I imagine re-arranging the 13/6/1 to rogue fighter monk as a warforged would be a great tactical staff build, but I haven't run the #'rs.

Just remember when multiclassing and doing tactics, most of the monks strikes require a high wisdom and a large amount of monk levels to be efficient. SO you want to focus instead of strikes granted by feats. Trip, Improved Trip, Stunning Blow.

For these to work you need lots of strength, and good enhancement lines. Which means Warforged tactics, fighter enhancements. So a Kensai I Acrobat II and a splash of monk for AC doing three feats for combat expertise, and improved trip, and stunning blow, carry around a vertigo 10 and stunning 10 staff.

The reason I still leave the bulk of levels as rogue, 13 rogue is way to powerful to ignore for Acrobats. Its 10% attack speed, AND crippling strike, evasion and improved evasion, not to mention all the S/A damage. But the key here is the immunity to slippery surfaces. This alone makes Acrobat II invaluable.

My $.02

** Edit Half orc's probably would work great for tactics as well... but that remains to be seen.

[Fionivar]

New U7 change that will effect Acrobats:


Glancing Blows no longer scale with Base Attack Bonus, and start at a base of 20% weapon damage.

Enhancements and feats that modify the Glancing Blow damage multiplier now function.

The Two Handed Fighting chain has been modified to add 10% to glancing blow weapon damage per tier, and the chance to produce special weapon effects has been increased to 3% per tier. They no longer grant to-hit bonuses for Glancing Blows.

The Barbarian capstone, “Might”, now correctly grants +10% glancing blow weapon damage and 5% chance to produce special weapon effects in addition to its +2 Strength bonus. (A half-orc or warforged barbarian with all three THF feats, Great Weapon Aptitude, and Might will have deal 60% weapon damage with their glancing blows, with a 20% chance to produce special weapon effects.)

The Frenzied Berserker and Great Weapon Aptitude enhancements now give full information on their effects on two handed combat.

Breaking that down into numbers that matter to an stick user:

Full TWF line will grant 50% glancing blow dmg. I am assuming that is base damage, and would not include SA. If it does.. wow. However, when not using something like Rhal's this seems to calculate out to roughly a match. I hit for high 30's usually, meaning glancing of 16-19 are normal. Good STR builds will be able to get higher than we could before I think or when buffed well.

One thing I am worried about is the to hit. If the dmg stays about the same but we miss more, that will be a bit of a reduction. Overall, not all that excited or worried about the change.

[The_Phenx]

It has multiple effects.

#1 DP clickies and madstone rage will no longer increase glancing blow damage. But will still grant full BAB which will help with glacing blows landing.

#2 Bard buffs will have more of an effect than they used to

#3 rages, damage augments and guild ship buffs just became a lot more powerful for THF

SO Prey typically sees 45-50 as a base damage when buffed... means 22-25 pts a glance... which honestly is a tad higher than it used to... factor in +2 from frenzy set, +2 from ship buffs, and thats another 2 points per hit.

The effect proc rate is going up so will be 9% chance.

So while not a huge bump in dps, it is a positive change.

Now if Acrobat III applies S/A damage on glancing blows while using a staff... WHOA MAMA! Keep your fingers crossed for that.

[t0r012]

It has multiple effects.

#1 DP clickies and madstone rage will no longer increase glancing blow damage. But will still grant full BAB which will help with glacing blows landing.

#2 Bard buffs will have more of an effect than they used to

#3 rages, damage augments and guild ship buffs just became a lot more powerful for THF

SO Prey typically sees 45-50 as a base damage when buffed... means 22-25 pts a glance... which honestly is a tad higher than it used to... factor in +2 from frenzy set, +2 from ship buffs, and thats another 2 points per hit.

The effect proc rate is going up so will be 9% chance.

So while not a huge bump in dps, it is a positive change.

Now if Acrobat III applies S/A damage on glancing blows while using a staff... WHOA MAMA! Keep your fingers crossed for that.

I'm a little frightened of the extra aggro. Even before I saw these changes I dropped the THF line cause the aggro was a bit much for my somewhat squishy under-geared acrobat. Last thing I need, for now, is more random damage being throw around.

Maybe after some threat reduction gear and another step up in the AP line I'll consider going back for now it is just a bad idea for me.

----------
BTW did you see the grease spec for the archmage PrC? that is the biggest acro II buff I've seen to date. 1 Sp cost grease will make acrobats the must have.

[Sam.Lore]

I had a question regarding the Air Stance / Haste thing.

Are they basically the same? I'm confused whether Air Stance actually provides faster attacks still? It sounds like it's a speed increase that's basically the same as haste spell, but gets overwritten by it? So can you go with air-stance haste instead of haste potions, etc. If no group haste is available?

I'm not sure how to measure these things.

[Fionivar]

Tier I Air Stance adds two things, attack speed(7.5%) and double strike (2.5%). The attack speed is the same type as Haste(15%), while not as good. The double strike chance is always there though. So the answer as for faster attacks while hasted in Air stance is no, but it DOES provide more attacks. Stats for Tier II Air stance are (10% Enhancement to Attack Speed) (5% Double Strike)

[The_Phenx]

I'm a little frightened of the extra aggro. Even before I saw these changes I dropped the THF line cause the aggro was a bit much for my somewhat squishy under-geared acrobat. Last thing I need, for now, is more random damage being throw around.

Maybe after some threat reduction gear and another step up in the AP line I'll consider going back for now it is just a bad idea for me.

----------
BTW did you see the grease spec for the archmage PrC? that is the biggest acro II buff I've seen to date. 1 Sp cost grease will make acrobats the must have.

Managing aggro is the key. And grease is AWESOME.

[Sam.Lore]

Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure what the exact haste percentages were. I probably missed where they were posted before.

I just started messing around with a quarterstaff build. One thing that took me by surprise, the first staff I was using (some +2 staff off AH), chewed itself up while fighting. It started with 100 durability and after maybe 3 dungeons it was down to 20 and almost broken. Just fighting humanoids, nothing corrosive. I assume that's because it was made of wood? I never paid attention to hardness of weapons before this...

[Fionivar]

yeah, I noticed this too, as one of the few wooden melee weapons combined with heightened attack speed. On a DR mob popping up yellow numbers, it eats weapons alive. I actually use the Adamentine ritual on both my Dreamspitter and Rhal's Might to keep them useful in Epics and other quests. The added 5 hardness makes a significant difference.

When you can, try to get Steel or Densewood quarterstaves.

[NUDS]

I have a dilemma here, originally I was messing around with multi-classes and made a 7/1/1 rogue/barb/fighter.

Now that the Monk is going on sale tomorrow, I was planning on buying that and LRing my char to this build. However, since I am true neutral, I can't simply replace the barb/fighter levels with monk. I also can't use alignment change because barb requires non-lawful, while monk requires lawful.

The possible solutions I see are:

1. Reroll
2. LR (+3 HoW), changing my barb/fighter levels to rogue and eating a alignment change thing to lawlful, then taking two monk levels further on.
3. LR (+1 HoW), changing barb to rogue, wait a week then change alignment to lawful and +3 HoW to add in two monk levels to follow the build progression.

Number one is painful because I've invested a couple of 100k plats into this toon, as well as time.

Number two seems like the best choice, just not sure if it will screw up the build (so instead of monk splashes at level 3 and 4, I will have monk splashes at 10 and 11).

Number three is extremely expensive in terms of RL money (a +1 and +3 HoW, as well as alignment change) and time required (1 week just to fix my toon???)



To clarify, the levels I have currently taken are:

1. Rogue
2. Barbarian
3. Fighter
4. Rogue
5. Rogue
6. Rogue
7. Rogue
8. Rogue
9. Rogue

Option number two will(hopefully) end up as:

1. Rogue
2. Barbarian -> Rogue
3. Fighter -> Rogue
4. Rogue
5. Rogue
6. Rogue
7. Rogue
8. Rogue
9. Rogue

Eat alignment change to Lawful Good

10. Monk
11. Monk

Also to further complicate things, I have enough banked exp to proceed to level 10. LR states that you should level before LRing. I have looked around a bit and it looks like people have attempted to LR with banked exp.

Why does everything have to be so complicated...

Advice is very appreciated.

[IronClan]

I think you're going to take some flack for posting a non-acrobat Q-staff related question, and in the wrong forum at that (the reincarnate forum would be more appropriate)

Anyway I know how you feel my main had a similar change of heart at mid levels and I was looking at a similar major LR surgery. I don't think there's a consensus on what happens to your XP if you have a level banked and you use an LR I asked that question myself last month and no one could say for 100% sure if you lose the XP or the LR fails, or they just don't let you use it until you use the banked XP... In any case at level 9 that XP is only a 4 or 5 hours of questing to replace. I also was looking at a more difficult "surgery" if I used the banked XP (because the extra level would have necessitated another LR and another week long wait to use it).

Option 1 and 2 are the most realistic... Honestly it doesn't take more than a few weeks to get to level 9 even only playing a couple hours a night my DoS Pali-tank got to 9 in 5 weeks Plan B however would be to make an alt character with monk levels and make the alt distinct enough that you'll actually play them both, this is different for everyone, some people can play an alt that just has a few minor differences (different skills but same build), some (myself included) need there to be a significant archetypal sized difference (so like 1 AC Tank, 1 TWF, 1 arcane caster, I can't even play two completely different types of Paladins).

Anyway as an example keep the barb/fighter flavor (or just LR +1 to tweak it) and focus on weapon DPS with that rogue, then make a Monk/Rogue that uses unarmed... or if that's not enough difference to make you play both, +3 LR the melee splash off the current rogue and go pure rogue/mechanic, concentrating on rogue skills and UMD, then make a big stick build for your DPS rogue. If like me you know you wont play two rogues, then go with option 2 and add your monk levels at 10 and 11 (and 12 ;)

[The_Phenx]

I wont give him flax but I can't really answer that question :)

I know halfling fighters and acrobats. My only rogue barb combo has been stuck at 14th for a while...

[NUDS]

Oh sorry, at the moment I'm using a Quarterstaff and Acrobat PrE and it's really fun, it's just with the monk being on sale tomorrow I figured I can squeeze out more dps with this build.

So yeah, I think I will just go with option two and add two monks after purging the barb and fighter :P

Anyway, I played around a bit in the character planner and came up with this:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

NUDS Take Two
Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Female
(3 Monk \ 17 Rogue)
Hit Points: 233
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 20
Will: 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 15 21
Dexterity 15 21
Constitution 13 14
Intelligence 14 16
Wisdom 11 13
Charisma 8 9

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 1
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 7 34
Bluff -1 0
Concentration 2 29
Diplomacy 3 23
Disable Device 6 31
Haggle -1 0
Heal 1 2
Hide 3 20
Intimidate -1 0
Jump 7 16
Listen 1 4
Move Silently 7 12
Open Lock 7 30
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 4
Search 6 30
Spot 5 14
Swim 3 7
Tumble 7 30
Use Magic Device 3 27

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I


Level 2 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble II


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Balance II
Enhancement: Rogue Search I


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III


Level 8 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II


Level 10 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II


Level 11 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Deflect Arrows
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV


Level 13 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III


Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity II


Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III


Level 17 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device III


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Defensive Roll
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Reflex) I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I




Had to shift some feats around, with the monk levels being taken later than the optimal build.

[IronClan]

Oh sorry, at the moment I'm using a Quarterstaff and Acrobat PrE and it's really fun, it's just with the monk being on sale tomorrow I figured I can squeeze out more dps with this build.

So yeah, I think I will just go with option two and add two monks after purging the barb and fighter :P

Anyway, I played around a bit in the character planner and came up with this:


IMO ppl are going to give you guff for the 14 INT but not me, I love having a rogue with actual roque skills... and I love having spot and search with good ranks (not maxed but enough to do elites underlevel with items swapped in).

I think you should put more in STR and less in Dex but that's cost prohibitive with a halfling I guess so maybe not. others will detail some of your skill choices, you don't need tumble maxed, or Jump quite that high (10 jump after mods and a jump spell from caster = highest effective jump skill) also Open locks doesn't need to be maxed, if you don't mind re-rolling (or swaping lock picking gear on and trying) but personally I'm not a huge min maxer and don't like telling other people how to have fun so have at it.

My Elf Ninja Spy II/Acrobat I (maybe) or Elven AA (maybe) build will be far from optimal just for the elf part of it, but I'll have fun and do traps and deal with the occasional MyDDO exclusion from groups.

[drac317]

thinkin bout goin half-orc for jakoV.3.0.

looks like it might be sick with a 36pt build,and i just want to try on the way to V.4.0.

will post it once i get back on the game,since i'll need to get a new machine since my laptop comitted sepuku.:eek:

[NUDS]

Yeah I figured if I'm almost pure rogue and join groups, people will probably expect me to handle traps/locks.

I have RR stuff for search/DD and have no problem with traps on elite for content at level. I don't mind re-rolling for a successful pick lock attempt, but I'm not too sure exactly how much I need (or don't need) without gimping myself, since I haven't really played rogues that much yet.

I found the Trap DC page on the wiki very useful so I guess I only need as much lock picking as the bare minimum required to open when rolling a 20.

Is spot really important? I'm not really into RPing so I tend to read up on the dungeon I'm planning to do beforehand and remember the location of all traps so I won't need to rely on spot for my "trap-sense" :P

I think I'll put less points in tumble/jump and open lock but I'm not sure where else to put them. Maxing diplomacy should be the logical choice, since reducing threat is crucial here.

Otherwise if I haven't made any blatant horrible mistakes, I'll LR to this first thing tomorrow :)

[The_Phenx]

No horrible mistakes. If you are going to keep using a staff remember they are str based. SO it checks your to hit and damage based off of str.

So a 16 dex isn't really necessary as all it ads over 15 is +1 reflex save and +1 ac and that's at base level. If you can get a +1 tome its right back to a 16.

Wisdom feels a lil high. I ran preying with a 11 from start because you can make up the+1 with monk enhancements and land you at an even 12 before gear or tomes.

And key fact to remember is monk doesn't mean more dps, it means more flavor and functionality. Party buffs, fun little strikes, finishing moves, armor class and survivability. Its great for all that.

[t0r012]

yeah, I noticed this too, as one of the few wooden melee weapons combined with heightened attack speed. On a DR mob popping up yellow numbers, it eats weapons alive. I actually use the Adamentine ritual on both my Dreamspitter and Rhal's Might to keep them useful in Epics and other quests. The added 5 hardness makes a significant difference.

When you can, try to get Steel or Densewood quarterstaves.

My ghost touch of pure good is listed as steel and it still seems to take damage just as fast as my wooden sticks for some reason.

But yes Qsticks damage is a problem. that why I always grab 2 pillars of light from catacombs.

[The_Phenx]

This is interesting and thought I should share.

Opportunist
Prereqs: Level 10, 13, 16, or 19 Rogue (Rogue Special Ability option)
Benefit: A rogue with this ability gains a 3% chance to double strike with melee weapons. This ability may be taken multiple times, increasing this double strike chance by 3% each time.

[Azuarc]

That makes me take the pure rogue build a lot more seriously. Picking that up 4 times for a 12% double strike is not wholly unlike increasing your damage output by 12%. And the rogue was already high to begin with. Even 9% for a 17/3 is nice, though. Did we ever conclude if sneak attacks apply to double strikes?

[Fionivar]

I am positive I saw double strikes (from monk stance) and it's just another hit, SA, weapon abilities, even Ki attacks. All included.

[Trillea]

With they upcoming Opportunist feats I am thinking the optimal rog/monk split would be 19/1 so you can get imp. evasion and 3 tiers of Opportunist (I won't give up my imp evasion for anything)

[t0r012]

That makes me take the pure rogue build a lot more seriously. Picking that up 4 times for a 12% double strike is not wholly unlike increasing your damage output by 12%. And the rogue was already high to begin with. Even 9% for a 17/3 is nice, though. Did we ever conclude if sneak attacks apply to double strikes?

3 is more likely as improved evasion is well worth giving up three percent double strike. Also double strikes are just like regluar hits in that everything processes. So sneak weapon effects ki strikes everything included. So with a 19/1 build 9% from 3 feats and 2.5 from wind I would be 11.5 double strike. Not bad at all. Still probably not with losing the cap though. Probably worth it for leveling and then LR at 20 to get the cap. With hearts of wood getting added to the loot tables that will be a nice option.

[IronClan]

man I don't see giving up crippling strike either if you're going high enough to get Rogue special feats...

I know a lot of min maxers will do it, but really just assuming you're doing sustained 100 dps a 10% increase is only 110 damage, up that closer to 200 per sec and you're only adding 20 for 220... Obviously skip ahead to the top levels of DPS 40 and 50 dps added. and yes I know DPS is king in this game I get that but it seems to me Crippling strike owns 3% higher double strike chance... And improved evasion... well... that's the best feat in the game IMO. I don't think the difference between 400-500 dps and 440-550 dps is worth losing either of those feats. I'm not sure where rogue/big stick DPS falls I seem to recall 350-400? so the real numbers might be somewhere in the middle especially if your build is sacrificing any DPS in other ways (and yes I also realize that double strike expressed as a percentage of DPS isn't entirely accurate, and is only aproximate).

[The_Phenx]

I don't think anyone has run the dps calcuators since the rogue capstone and the changes were made to acrobat 1. Would be interesting to see where it lands now.

Crippling strike is absolutely amazing at lower levels, at high levels not nearly as much. In post shroud and epic type quests things have soo much in their stats that its impossible to get them down to 0 to go stunned before they die, well that and they are immune to stat damage in epics.

So the type of quest you are running makes a large difference.

I would never give up improved evasion. SO I forsee a lot of 9% double strike chance in my future.

The devs are doing a much better job now of making pure classes desirable vs multiclassing. Its actually a hard choice finally.

[Angelus_dead]

they are immune to stat damage in epics.
95% negated, so not literally immune. If you solo an epic boss with a +1 club of deception you'll eventually see him take 2 points of str.



This is interesting and thought I should share.
Opportunist
And notice that because it gives Doublestrike, it's more of an improvement to staff-users than regular TWF Rogues.

(Also interesting to notice who suggested that...)

[Dartwick]

Assuming you want improved evasion.

13rogue/6monk would give 8% double strike
19rogue/1monk would give 11.5% double strike
16-17rogue/1-4monk gives 8.5% double strike
20rogue gives 9% chance of doublestrike

[The_Phenx]

95% negated, so not literally immune. If you solo an epic boss with a +1 club of deception you'll eventually see him take 2 points of str.

Aye you got me there... :D

And notice that because it gives Doublestrike, it's more of an improvement to staff-users than regular TWF Rogues.

I noticed that, but I didn't wanna mention it lest the legions of str based kopesh assassin rogues climb out of the woodwork and begin their assault again.

(Also interesting to notice who suggested that...)

Interjections in red...

[Schola]

Hi All, I've been looking at making a WF Big F'n Stick Stunning Build, and would love some feedback and advice.

1) Is there a reason Rogue is usually taken first? I want the Monk animations if I can, is it just the extra Skills?(Ok, I played around with Veteran Status and started one Monk first, and another Rogue first. They both use the same animations? In this case, it would be crazy to take Monk first...) (Changed the planner info)
2) What does tumble do for me, really? Should I take it?
3) With WF Tactics 3 and a base of 12 Wis, is my DC going to be high enough to be useable for Stunning Fist?
4) I can only seem to get to Subtle Backstabbing III, is that enough?
5) Is WF Power Attack useful to sneak attack based char, or not really?
6) Taking 2 points from Con to Int lets me max Concentration and Jump at the cost of 10hp (is this correct). Is that worth it?

Skills ?
Balance (how much is enough?)
Jump (how much is enough?
Concentration (Do I need this, and if so, how much?)
Spot (max)
Search (max)
Lockpick (max)
Disable Device (max)
Haggle (max)
Diplomacy (Maxed or is there an upper limit?)
UMD (max)

Any other advice at all?

Thanks!


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(3 Monk \ 17 Rogue)
Hit Points: 218
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 18
Will: 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 23
Dexterity 15 20
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 14 16
Wisdom 12 14
Charisma 6 8

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 18
Bluff -2 -1
Concentration 3 24.5
Diplomacy 2 22
Disable Device 6 26
Haggle 2 22.5
Heal 1 2
Hide 2 5
Intimidate -2 -1
Jump 7 33
Listen 1 2
Move Silently 2 5
Open Lock 6 28
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 3
Search 6 26
Spot 5 25
Swim 3 6
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 2 22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Defensive Roll


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I
Enhancement: Rogue Balance II
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble I
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack II
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack III
Enhancement: Warforged Tactics I
Enhancement: Warforged Tactics II
Enhancement: Warforged Tactics III

[Dartwick]

At level one you get double skill points. Rogues get the most skill points so it makes sense to take rogue at level 1.

[The_Phenx]

Hi All, I've been looking at making a WF Big F'n Stick Stunning Build, and would love some feedback and advice.

1) Is there a reason Rogue is usually taken first? I want the Monk animations if I can, is it just the extra Skills?(Ok, I played around with Veteran Status and started one Monk first, and another Rogue first. They both use the same animations? In this case, it would be crazy to take Monk first...) (Changed the planner info)
2) What does tumble do for me, really? Should I take it?
3) With WF Tactics 3 and a base of 12 Wis, is my DC going to be high enough to be useable for Stunning Fist?
4) I can only seem to get to Subtle Backstabbing III, is that enough?
5) Is WF Power Attack useful to sneak attack based char, or not really?

Skills ?
Balance (how much is enough?)
Jump (how much is enough?
Concentration (Do I need this, and if so, how much?)


Rogue is taken first for all the skill points. As char creation is the easiest place to begin.

Tumble, negates falling damage, and lets you do cool backflips... so no you don't have to take it, but you should have plenty of points by level 20 to spread around, and be able to get it high enough. 36 tumble is the number to hit.

You can't use stunning fist with a staff. With a tactics user you want to go with stunning blow, CE and Improved trip. And your dc will be fairly high with those, as long as you keep your strength as high as possible, and try to use the highest + stunning and Vertigo staffs, you should see good results everywhere but epic, there you will rely on the 3% built into the staffs and maybe improved trip.

WF power attack is plenty usable. You will have to monitor your to hit and make sure your landing the majority. Use divine power clickies or madstone boots to help offset some of this. Since you will be str based your base damage will be pretty decent.

Subtle backstabbing 3 will probably be enough if there is a really well built tank nearby. If you want to solo or not worry about it, use radiance greensteel, radiance guard from SOS, and you will be a machine. You can also use deception staffs at lower levels for a similar (but weaker) effect. Look to get Rahls might as a good stand by staff to have, until Radiance gets built.

That outta get you started.

[Schola]

Hmm, stunning fist not useable with staves (obvious really.... /wink). This was one of the main reasons for me going Monk splash. I guess with this gone, I would LR to full rogue mid to high level, once Fists of light is no longer usefull. The move to Pure rogue would let me max Tumble instead of Concentration as well. Pure Rogue at mid to high levels would also allow taking Acrobat III (if it is ever released/worthwhile)

Is there anything else that Monk splash gives that I am missing?

Losing stunning fist leaves space for another feat. Taking Combat Experience and Improved Trip seems a waste of feats to me, Dodge early and either Weapon Focus Bludgeoning or Cleave seems like a better option to me.

Taking Stunning Fist out also leaves a space from Wis. No longer needing Wis for the DC, should I drop that lower, or is the AC bonus from monk worth leaving it high(er)?

Does radiance (and other procs in general) proc off glancing blows? Might be worth dropping the Tactics line altogether (and Stunning Blow, but replace stunning blow with what?) and taking the WF Great Weapon Aptitude (If they ever fix this actually working)

It seems this build focusing more towards Glancing blows and ae damage, subtle backstabbing is even more important, so I have reworked the Enhancements, getting Subtle Backstabbing IV, and dropping Sneak attack Accuracy. I have kept Tactics for the moment, but would change in a heartbeat if the WF GW Aptitude was ever fixed.

I have updated the skills a bit as well. End stats are:
Balance 18 (enough?)
Maxed - Concentration, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Haggle, Jump, Open Lock, Search, Spot, UMD

Having a play with stats as well, with becoming less dex based and more str based, should I drop dex to 12, and wis to 10, to take str to 18?

I have updated my original post as well. Phenx, would you consider keeping a link to other race builds in your main post? Ie should I keep all this info and compile into it's own thread for you to link to, or just leave here in case someone wants to read the whole thing?

[The_Phenx]

Hmm, stunning fist not useable with staves (obvious really.... /wink). This was one of the main reasons for me going Monk splash. I guess with this gone, I would LR to full rogue mid to high level, once Fists of light is no longer usefull. The move to Pure rogue would let me max Tumble instead of Concentration as well. Pure Rogue at mid to high levels would also allow taking Acrobat III (if it is ever released/worthwhile)

The main reason for a monk splash is for Fists of light and the party buffs it brings,, the save bonus, and the ac.

Now obviously things have changed with some of the new rogue enhancements and things coming out, and the builds are not as cut and dry anymore.

Honestly as a tactics build 20 rogue is not the optimum split. A 13 Rogue 6 Fighter 1 Monk Acrobat II Kensai I Warforged would have a much higher DC, from kensai, and all the enhancement lines it opens (fighter strength, fighter trip, etc). Not only that but you would have a few more feats to throw around, and a pretty solid ac. Or you could make the 1 monk a ranger level and get some sprint boost and a favored enemy.

Of course Acrobat III could prove or kill that setup.



Does radiance (and other procs in general) proc off glancing blows? Might be worth dropping the Tactics line altogether (and Stunning Blow, but replace stunning blow with what?) and taking the WF Great Weapon Aptitude (If they ever fix this actually working)

It seems this build focusing more towards Glancing blows and ae damage, subtle backstabbing is even more important, so I have reworked the Enhancements, getting Subtle Backstabbing IV, and dropping Sneak attack Accuracy. I have kept Tactics for the moment, but would change in a heartbeat if the WF GW Aptitude was ever fixed.

Stunning blow works great until epic content, and ever there purpose built stunning toons tend to fall short. Radiance is off a crit only, and NOT glances, but at end game you are working on a single mob so long it is guaranteed to get blinded. WF great weapon apt is a nice feat.

The original Stick build thats posted focused on sneak attack damage, survivability, and party support, and does all that VERY well. The glancing blows were just a lil icing on the cake (extra dps), and are not necessary in the overall scheme of things.

When I traded him out to 20 rogue it was to focus on DPS as my game priorities changed. The ac and survivability is still enough for regular quests however, but unless they adjust epic, DPS is the way to go.

Balance 18... +4 from Acro I and II + 10 from dex 30 + gh = 36 should be enough for titans, and if you find it light, just carry aorund a set of boots for those few quests.

Str to 18 isnt bad, dex would get a lil light however, remember an acrobat will get +1 damage every S/A for every 2 in dex, so both str and dex are = importance as far as damage is concerned. Try and keep dex at the 30-32 range at end game.

Monk or no monk concentration is a great skill for combat healing as a rogue.

Once you get the wrinkles ironed out I would love to post a tactics build in the main post, or the eventual second thread that will replace this monster.

[Dartwick]

Dont forget a splash of rogue also provides some double strike.

I like the current situation in that there are so many builds and none of the are markedly superior to several others.

I think Monk 1 builds are attractive for almost every acrobat for the 2.5% doublestrike and greater defence. And I think going 6 monk with its 5% double strike and FoL as well as more defense is good too.

One thing to remember is that just because you took some monk that doesnt mean you need to put all those points in conce.

[The_Phenx]

:) Got a +4 dex tome.
and a +3 cha tome in the last two days.

Need a couple more then its TR time. :D

[Ancient]

Does anyone have any experience with using unbalancing strike for soloing? The Monk 6 splash would be enough levels to enable the enhancement.

[prybar]

Does anyone have any experience with using unbalancing strike for soloing? The Monk 6 splash would be enough levels to enable the enhancement.

The reflex DC to land Unbalancing Strike is 10 + half monk levels + wis mod. My 13/7 rogue monk has a DC of 19 from 7 monk levels and a +6 wis mod. From my brief experience with it, it never landed except when the mob rolled a 1. I had an easier time getting sneak attacks from my radiance 2 stick.

[Trillea]

I donno if you have been keeping up with the Lamma forums, but Opportunist changed - now you can only take it once for 3% doublestrike but enemy fort is also lowered by 10%, causing undead and constructs to be crittable (for the person with the feat only), but still no sneak atk damage even with fort reduction.

[kernal42]

I've been wanting to make a qstaff build for a while now. The inclusion of Half-Orc and Opportunist is enough to finally push me over the edge. This is going to be awesome!

Your feedback in this thread, The_Phenx, has been invaluable.

Cheers,
Kernal

[Fionivar]

Possible U7 staff for acrobats in training:

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z167/TheCataclysm/staffv.jpg

The epic version is unknown as of yet. Just something that may be neat.

[The_Phenx]

I donno if you have been keeping up with the Lamma forums, but Opportunist changed - now you can only take it once for 3% doublestrike but enemy fort is also lowered by 10%, causing undead and constructs to be crittable (for the person with the feat only), but still no sneak atk damage even with fort reduction.

Its better than just crittable... 10% reduction in fort means they are vulnerable to sneak attacks.

[The_Phenx]

Possible U7 staff for acrobats in training:

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z167/TheCataclysm/staffv.jpg

The epic version is unknown as of yet. Just something that may be neat.

Good lookin out.

[The_Phenx]

I've been wanting to make a qstaff build for a while now. The inclusion of Half-Orc and Opportunist is enough to finally push me over the edge. This is going to be awesome!

Your feedback in this thread, The_Phenx, has been invaluable.

Cheers,
Kernal

Ya half orc has now become the direct damage acrobat champion. Halfling will still do a lil more when sneakattacking, but wow...

Oh and thanks!

[kernal42]

My estimate puts them close in attack bonus and damage, but with Half-Orc slightly ahead:
Assuming same starting stats before racial modifiers:

Attack bonus:
Halfling: -1 attack (str) +1 attack (size) = +0
Half-Orc: +2 attack (str) -3 attack (PA) +2 attack (enhancements) = +1

Damage:
Halfling: -1.5 (str) +2(dex) +12 (guile) = +12.5
Half-Orc: +3 (str) +6(PA) +4(enhancements) = +13

That would put half-orc slightly ahead in melee capability (attack bonus & damage), not counting the weapon aptitude which is likely to have minimal effeect.

Whether or not that damage increase is worth the saves penalty is an interesting question.

Cheers,
Kernal

PS - epic Staff of Nat Gann is out; looks pretty nice!

[The_Phenx]

You forgot the + th component from halfling guile.

Its 13.5 not 12.5 if you use the halfling dex enhancement tier II which most probably will for the additional damage.

Max dps to Max dps its nearly a wash...

But Half Orcs do mroe sustained DPS because theirs isnt really based on having aggro or not, and crits will be higher.

[drac317]

:) Got a +4 dex tome.
and a +3 cha tome in the last two days.

Need a couple more then its TR time. :D
grats on the tomes bro.

im sure youll post ur TR stats when u get there, intrested to see what u do with ur's.

mine are in this monster somewhere and will post my 36pt stats when i get there,shouldnt be to long after i get my new comp.

btw i liked ur ideas about the epic nat gann but i think it should be made out of plat so its worth more when we vendor thrash it:D

[prybar]

The epic version is unknown as of yet. Just something that may be neat.

Epic Staff of Nat Gann - +6 Quarterstaff, Dexterity +7, Dodge +4, Sneak Attack +5, Swiftness, Red Augment Slot

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275755

Oh my!

[The_Phenx]

Ya I saw it, it could have been sooooooo much better :(

Its most definitely not a combat oriented staff, good for nothing really, sadly, unfortunately...

[Fionivar]

Epic Staff of Nat Gann - +6 Quarterstaff, Dexterity +7, Dodge +4, Sneak Attack +5, Swiftness, Red Augment Slot

Yeah.. +5 backstabbing won't stack with Tharnes, and +4 dodge won't stack with Icy. As clicky boosts currently work, switching between that and any other staff would deplete all your Uncanny Dodge uses. As an epic item.. yeah doesn't work all that well. Would mean major regearing just to really use all the features.

[leviathan]

I think dodge bonuses always stack.... Chattering ring stacks with icy.

[Alintalkin]

I think dodge bonuses always stack.... Chattering ring stacks with icy.

They only stack if they are of different values. A +4 dodge bonus won't stack with a +4 dodge bonus even if a +3 dodge bonus stacks with a +4.

Edit: I kinda like how this thread, that started out in 2008 is still alive and kicking. It seems it is no longer just the front page build that attracts people to this thread, it is more of [i] the [/] thread to discuss acrobats and seems to no longer discuss "one build" but the acrobat path in general instead.

[The_Phenx]

They only stack if they are of different values. A +4 dodge bonus won't stack with a +4 dodge bonus even if a +3 dodge bonus stacks with a +4.

Edit: I kinda like how this thread, that started out in 2008 is still alive and kicking. It seems it is no longer just the front page build that attracts people to this thread, it is more of [i] the [/] thread to discuss acrobats and seems to no longer discuss "one build" but the acrobat path in general instead.


Pretty much lol, which is totally cool with me. That's why I wanna get some more builder templates up on the main page, figure why not.

Maybe I should petition Tolero to change the thread title to....

Ringling Brothers Barnem & Bailey :D

[Hobbelin]

I've done 'Into the Deep' around 12 times now and I've yet to see any uniques besides the frozen plate, which to be honest is rather useless to me. I'm looking for the Souleater but I get more and more weary of the quest (it's not har, just tedious). So for those who've managed to drop the souleater: how many times did you do the quest and at what difficulty? I simply refuse to pay 900k (AH price I saw the other day) for a weapon that's basically a vorpal (a blunt vorpal nonetheless).

[The_Phenx]

Calling all acrobats.

Please go here http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=277750

Sign the petition, cause otherwise we are gonna end up with a really subpar weapon that will disgrace poor ole Nat Gann.

[cyadra]

So how long do we have to wait for this stupid update to go live?

[The_Phenx]

I've done 'Into the Deep' around 12 times now and I've yet to see any uniques besides the frozen plate, which to be honest is rather useless to me. I'm looking for the Souleater but I get more and more weary of the quest (it's not har, just tedious). So for those who've managed to drop the souleater: how many times did you do the quest and at what difficulty? I simply refuse to pay 900k (AH price I saw the other day) for a weapon that's basically a vorpal (a blunt vorpal nonetheless).

4 times... on normal make sure your hitting the devils chest :)'

ND ITS A LEVEL 7 BLUNT VORPAL!

[The_Phenx]

So how long do we have to wait for this stupid update to go live?

No word yet.

[Fionivar]

I've done 'Into the Deep' around 12 times now and I've yet to see any uniques besides the frozen plate, which to be honest is rather useless to me. I'm looking for the Souleater but I get more and more weary of the quest (it's not har, just tedious). So for those who've managed to drop the souleater: how many times did you do the quest and at what difficulty? I simply refuse to pay 900k (AH price I saw the other day) for a weapon that's basically a vorpal (a blunt vorpal nonetheless).

7 times, and two drops for me. Of note, BOTH times it dropped, were high diff. First time was Elite, second on an Epic run.

[Hobbelin]

7 times, and two drops for me. Of note, BOTH times it dropped, were high diff. First time was Elite, second on an Epic run.

Bastard... :P

Oh, and btw on the front page build you pick rogue dex III at lvl 12 instead of halfling dex II. Why is that?

[The_Phenx]

Rogue Dex III is a pre-req to take Thief-Acrobat II, Halfling Dex isnt... its just for ac and with U7 Sneak attack damage.

[Hobbelin]

Rogue Dex III is a pre-req to take Thief-Acrobat II, Halfling Dex isnt... its just for ac and with U7 Sneak attack damage.

I have acrobat II on my char and yet I didn't think of that simple solution...
I've tried both the monk version and the pure rogue version (and a mechanic in between which wasn't my cup of tea). Now that I'm lvl 14 I think I'm gonna GR back to the monk version though since I miss the extra AC and the button mashing action that is ki strikes :)

Thanks for what might be the funniest build I've ever played. Even my guildies wanted me to GR back to the monk version since they think it's an awesome build. They even like to group with me more when I play it compared to my FvS or pure monk :)
Now if I could just get my hands on an Icy Raiment instead of my invul robe I'd be home free for a while.

[The_Phenx]

I miss my button mashing but I am a little addicted to the Dps...

I will be True Rezin' Preying here in about a week or two.

Got my +3 con +3 cha +4 dex and +2 str (trying for +3 or 4) +2 int +2 wis

Now just rounding out my raids, and I will be replacing cleave with the rogue past life feat which is just an amazing 3 charge per rest 1 min clickie, which will give me +4 to hit and +10 damage, and I will get +1 S/A per hit permanently, and prolly roll W a lil higher str and con.

So end str will go to a 34 base :)

Means while activated I should be about 110 a hit for S/A damage... MUAAAHAHAHAHA

[DareDelvis]

I've done 'Into the Deep' around 12 times now and I've yet to see any uniques besides the frozen plate, which to be honest is rather useless to me. I'm looking for the Souleater but I get more and more weary of the quest (it's not har, just tedious). So for those who've managed to drop the souleater: how many times did you do the quest and at what difficulty? I simply refuse to pay 900k (AH price I saw the other day) for a weapon that's basically a vorpal (a blunt vorpal nonetheless).

I got very lucky. I have only done it twice. The second run I got 2.

[Hobbelin]

I got my souleater the other night. I was playing with my FvS alt and we managed to kill the demon. The rogue in the group (we had two) managed to pull two, one from each chest! He gave me and the other rogue one each :)

And Phenx... That sounds like a lil too much win for my playstyle :)
Plus I'm too lazy to TR so I won't ever be seeing SA like that. I just play for fun.

[mournbladereigns]

I've done 'Into the Deep' around 12 times now and I've yet to see any uniques besides the frozen plate, which to be honest is rather useless to me. I'm looking for the Souleater but I get more and more weary of the quest (it's not har, just tedious). So for those who've managed to drop the souleater: how many times did you do the quest and at what difficulty? I simply refuse to pay 900k (AH price I saw the other day) for a weapon that's basically a vorpal (a blunt vorpal nonetheless).

heh, I hear you about the price. I sold a blue scale and scored a Soul Eater for m BFS for 99K plat, there were a few for 150ishK buyout (well on Thelanis). Still pretty expensive. I guess I'll have to Epic it since I spent so much on it. And yeah it drops from the optional demons chest.

[Failedlegend]

Hey Phenx any plans to TR or LR back to a 13/7 now that Ninja Spy and Acrobat can be used together?

[The_Phenx]

Hey Phenx any plans to TR or LR back to a 13/7 now that Ninja Spy and Acrobat can be used together?

Nah I am gonna stay 20 Rogue on my TR, till they release Acrobat III then I will figure it out.

Reason?

Cause 99% of what I do is epic and high end quests, and in there dps is king...

With the past life feat and the acrobat bonus I should be about 110 pts a swing just for S/A damage, and around 45-55 base damage depending on buffs. Thats pretty strong.

[Fionivar]

I'm looking at a TR soon as well. I think I may keep the 17/3 build, untill higher lvls and LR into full rogue.. maybe.. But while lvling, the added ac and extra feats I think will help survivability considerably. Since I'll have all the nice raid gear at lvl, the AC is going to be really high.

[Fecerak]

My try at making a awesome fun acrobat build:

12 Rogue/7 Wizard/1 Monk (sad to lose 13 Rogue, but the other option would be to lose 1 Monk... so what are your thoughts? Extra rogue feat or AC? And without monk I would prolly have to skip THF feats or something, otherwise I cant fit toughness, which I think is needed)

Stats:
Str 15 (thinking about dropping this down to 14 so I can get some more wis for AC, etc.) (+ levelups)
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 8

Skills: Rogue skills, UMD, some tumble and balance and jump I guess

Feats: (Not sure whether to take THF and ITHF, need opinions on this)
1: Least dmark
W1: Maximise
3: THF (PA maybe here?)
M1: Toughness
6: Lesser Dmark
W5: Empower
9: Greater Dmark
12: ITHF (Skip this?)
15: ICrit: Bludgeoning
18: Power Attack (currently kinda late :/)

What do you think? would like fast replies so I wont have to reroll at higher levels and such :/

Build goals BTW :D :
Firewall
Dmarks for decent self-healing
Self-buffs
Survivability
Quick attacking with q-staff
Versatility
Lots of buttons to click on
Party viable (not awesome, but viable) even at high levels

Current level order:
1 Rogue
2-3 Wiz
4 Mnk
5 Rog
6-10 Wiz
11-20 Rog

[The_Phenx]

I'm looking at a TR soon as well. I think I may keep the 17/3 build, untill higher lvls and LR into full rogue.. maybe.. But while lvling, the added ac and extra feats I think will help survivability considerably. Since I'll have all the nice raid gear at lvl, the AC is going to be really high.

That is exactly the route I took... once I capped I lr'd into a dps monster.

[The_Phenx]

My try at making a awesome fun acrobat build:

12 Rogue/7 Wizard/1 Monk (sad to lose 13 Rogue, but the other option would be to lose 1 Monk... so what are your thoughts? Extra rogue feat or AC? And without monk I would prolly have to skip THF feats or something, otherwise I cant fit toughness, which I think is needed)

Stats:
Str 15 (thinking about dropping this down to 14 so I can get some more wis for AC, etc.) (+ levelups)
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 8

Skills: Rogue skills, UMD, some tumble and balance and jump I guess

Feats: (Not sure whether to take THF and ITHF, need opinions on this)
1: Least dmark
W1: Maximise
3: THF (PA maybe here?)
M1: Toughness
6: Lesser Dmark
W5: Empower
9: Greater Dmark
12: ITHF (Skip this?)
15: ICrit: Bludgeoning
18: Power Attack (currently kinda late :/)

What do you think? would like fast replies so I wont have to reroll at higher levels and such :/

Build goals BTW :D :
Firewall
Dmarks for decent self-healing
Self-buffs
Survivability
Quick attacking with q-staff
Versatility
Lots of buttons to click on
Party viable (not awesome, but viable) even at high levels

Current level order:
1 Rogue
2-3 Wiz
4 Mnk
5 Rog
6-10 Wiz
11-20 Rog

I say go for it lol...

Not the sneak attack monster, but heh prolly pretty fun to bang around on.

Biggest comment, not sure what the marks do for you there, the wiz n rogue levels make for a very high umd, ao your self healing will come from wands and scrolls. I would personally free up those 3 feats.

I would think extend over empower, or if you drop dmarks, add in extend, since your lengths are based on wiz levels, they wont be very long, and this would help a lot.

loosing 13 rogue hurts... the opportunist is a very strong feat for damage output.

Monk adds a bunch tho.. gonna be up to builder choice on that one.

Gear is gonna be very tight.

Keep it posted, curious to see how it turns out.

Reminds me of my thundergod build.

[Fecerak]

Well, decided to skip the THF feats, which means I have enough spare feats and stuff. The dmarks is because I can, and because thats like half the benefit of the wizard levels (maximised empowered dmark stuff).

I think I will go for opportunist and not imp evasion, depends on whether it works on undead and the like or not (Eladrin mentioned something about like 125% base fort) but I am not set, and if I can't function well without it I will take imp evasion.

Currently it looks like this:
My try at making a awesome fun acrobat build:

Stats:
Str 14 + Levels
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 8

Skills: Rogue skills, UMD, some tumble and balance and jump I guess

Feats:
1: Least dmark
W1: Maximise
3: Power attack
M1: Toughness
6: Lesser Dmark
W5: Empower
9: Greater Dmark
12: Extend
15: ICrit: Bludgeoning
18: Either CE or Dodge, or maybe something else, not sure tbh.

Current level order:
1 Rogue
2-3 Wiz
4 Mnk
5 Rog
6-10 Wiz
11-20 Rog

Currently at level 5 and it is very fun to play (except kinda meh to-hit atm :/ )
Got myself a souleater and a +1 holy of PG qstaff to pass over, and also had the jitz-tet-ka and the sentinels helm on another char that also prolly will be awesome.

[Fecerak]

Currently level 7.
Got my souleater, a +1 holy of PG staff, jidz-tet-ka, the sentinels helm for more dmarks, underwater action, multiple visors, and so on. It is really fun to play tbh.

Only thing I dont like is the fact that when I get a 20 with the souleater, mobs usually die at this level just from the crit. And when I reach the levels where they dont, they will prolly just save all the time. So it isnt as awesome as I had hoped for but w/e. The temp hp is nice anyways.

I am right now struggling to decide which of the staffs I should use. The holy of PG staff has a +7,5 average dmg, but I sometimes struggle to hit when I have PA on, which means that if I can have PA on with souleater but not with holy of PG, thats +,5 damage in favor of the souleater. Then we also have the temp HP, plus the fact that the souleater is made of metal and thus doesnt lose all of its dura in like 2 seconds.

Soloed Deleras norm at level 6 without much problems (with no hireling except for lever in pt 2). The only hard thing was really the end-fight in pt 4 because of all the mobs there, so I ended up killing the arcane skellys before getting rid of the boss. I also have the highest kill count in many partys I am in (which may or may not be because of way better gear... Id go with may tho).

So yeah, very fun to play so far. Only problem is that I have no +2 int tome, and without it I will struggle to keep my rogue skills up during the wizard levels.

[kartos]

I say go for it lol...

Not the sneak attack monster, but heh prolly pretty fun to bang around on.

Biggest comment, not sure what the marks do for you there, the wiz n rogue levels make for a very high umd, ao your self healing will come from wands and scrolls. I would personally free up those 3 feats.

I would think extend over empower, or if you drop dmarks, add in extend, since your lengths are based on wiz levels, they wont be very long, and this would help a lot.

loosing 13 rogue hurts... the opportunist is a very strong feat for damage output.

Monk adds a bunch tho.. gonna be up to builder choice on that one.

Gear is gonna be very tight.

Keep it posted, curious to see how it turns out.

Reminds me of my thundergod build.

oh ya how did raiden end up?

anyway I'm trying to creat a 28 points version that will suit me and I ended up with this

20 rogue halfling

S 14
D 16
C 14
I 14
W 8
Ch 8

will the loss of THF feats be that critical in U7?

and I was considering dropping int to 12 or com for 10 charisma is it a good idea?

[The_Phenx]

oh ya how did raiden end up?

anyway I'm trying to creat a 28 points version that will suit me and I ended up with this

20 rogue halfling

S 14
D 16
C 14
I 14
W 8
Ch 8

will the loss of THF feats be that critical in U7?

and I was considering dropping int to 12 or com for 10 charisma is it a good idea?

Never dump con ever ever ever! :D

The 1 point of UMD is negligable, with gear, etc.. easy to make up. 8 CHA...Don't stress it.

Those stats will be fine... will land you at a 30 str with levelups and a +2 tome and a TOD ring (32-34 possible with optimum gear)... and a 32 dex if worked right :).

The THF feats give a lot more damage in U7 a standard Acrobat should see 25 pts or so per glancing blow. And the effects proc should be pretty solid.

Thinking of taking the dragonmarks instead?

[kartos]

actually was planning on putting level ups to dex but again str seems better option so I'm back to THF ty and you didn't answer yet what happened to the thunder god i'm very interested in ot

[The_Phenx]

Level Ups to STR... untill they make a finesse option to staves.

Currently there are only 3 finesse staves in game.

Breeze
Shining Cresents
Epic Staff of Nat Gann (U7)

All else and greensteel staves are all str based.

Dex just adds some damage to S/A and a well built fully twinked toon can go to a 34-36 dex, even while applying all level ups to str.

The thundergod was scrapped, temporarily, I have determined the only way to make him work was to TR from a wizard. So I am working on that...

[kartos]

Level Ups to STR... untill they make a finesse option to staves.

Currently there are only 3 finesse staves in game.

Breeze
Shining Cresents
Epic Staff of Nat Gann (U7)

All else and greensteel staves are all str based.

Dex just adds some damage to S/A and a well built fully twinked toon can go to a 34-36 dex, even while applying all level ups to str.

The thundergod was scrapped, temporarily, I have determined the only way to make him work was to TR from a wizard. So I am working on that...

oh too bad about the thunder god hope you can make it work and ty for the tips I will check how much dex I can get with all level ups to STR

[The_Phenx]

I will check how much dex I can get with all level ups to STR

As it stands Preying is at a 30 str with no exceptional bonuses a +3 tome and a +6 item.

Starting with a 18 dex
+7 item = 25
+3 Rogue Dex = 28
+4 Tome = 32
+2 halfling enhancement = 34
+2 ship buffs = 36
+3 Exceptional bonus = 39
+2 Yulugoth Pots = 41
+1 Litany = 42

I believe thats max in game at the moment without assigning any levelups to dex.

Preying when I TR him will be 16 dex
+7 item = 23
+3 rogue dex = 26
+1 Halfling dex = 27
+4 tome = 31
+3 exceptional = 34
+2 Ship = 36

So I will be getting a constant +14 to S/A damage per hit, and this is while rolling with a base 32 str & 26 con & 41 UMD.

[drac317]

well i saw that they added silver to the natt gann staff and took out the extra uses of uncanny dodge.

still not great but better.

[cforce]

Level Ups to STR... untill they make a finesse option to staves.

Currently there are only 3 finesse staves in game.

Breeze
Shining Cresents
Epic Staff of Nat Gann (U7)



I've been thinking recently that this might be enough -- at least, for a more casual player, for now.

Doing a compare/contrast between a STR halfling build and a DEX halfling build, the halfling can get endgame DEX about 16 points higher than STR. (4 base ability scores, 5 enhancement, 4 showtime, 2 from being in wind stance (assuming the STR build would stay in Wind for the best DPS) = 15 -- and then my test builds had STR coming out odd with a +4 tome in the mix). 8 points of bonus differential maps to 12 points on a two-hander, and then you can also count on an additional 8 points of sneak attack damage. So while these weapons are worse, you can actually count on an extra 12-20 points of damage per swing. That extra damage offsets a lot of what might be "missing" from Nat Gann's staff situationally, excepting Elite raid DR.

Put differently, which would be better in the hands of a STR build: Greensteel staff, or a STR-based Nat Gann staff which had a +13 total enhancement bonus and *another* stacking +5/+8 sneak attack bonus?

Other than overcoming DR in elite raids, any other strong counterpoints?


For reference, here's the draft build I was using as a comparison point:

KwikStik -- Halfling Acrobat 13/Monk 7 (same logic applies for 17/3 split)

STR 12 [6] (+1 tome for PA)
DEX 18 [10] (+5 levels +7 item +3 exc +2 tome +5 enh +2 stance +4 showtime) = 46
CON 14 [6] (+6 item +2 tome -2 stance = 20)
INT 12 [4] (+2 tome)
WIS 14 [6] (+6 item +2 tome +2 enh +2 exc = 26)
CHA 8 [0]


Feats: THFx3, CE, Toughness, iCrit, PA, Dodge, Toughness, Toughness, Imp. Evasion, Crippling Strike

[XL_Jockey]

Am I the only one waiting for Half-Orc to build their Acrobat or Acro/Multi? I already have two halfling characters, a Dex/Wis Monk and a Str Rogue. I wonder if you compare a STR HOrc Acrobat vs. DEX Halfling Acrobat, which ends up better. I'm banking on the HOrc coming out ahead, due to higher base STR and the quarterstaff enhancements.

[drac317]

Am I the only one waiting for Half-Orc to build their Acrobat or Acro/Multi? I already have two halfling characters, a Dex/Wis Monk and a Str Rogue. I wonder if you compare a STR HOrc Acrobat vs. DEX Halfling Acrobat, which ends up better. I'm banking on the HOrc coming out ahead, due to higher base STR and the quarterstaff enhancements.
actually i'm waiting on half-orc to re-build(TR) my acro,again:cool:

[The_Phenx]

Am I the only one waiting for Half-Orc to build their Acrobat or Acro/Multi? I already have two halfling characters, a Dex/Wis Monk and a Str Rogue. I wonder if you compare a STR HOrc Acrobat vs. DEX Halfling Acrobat, which ends up better. I'm banking on the HOrc coming out ahead, due to higher base STR and the quarterstaff enhancements.

Look like 2 or three pages back we discussed it pretty thoroughly.

On a 20 Rogue build

The halfling has .5 per hit damage and +4 TH better while getting S/A damage
The half orc does more sustained and more vs constructs and undead

On Multiclasses I believe the Half Orc comes out ahead

SO just really depends on what you wanna play... pretty close to a wash.

[The_Phenx]

Re-Organized the mail Post a bit to include Preyings TR #1 build template, feel free to comment away.

Substitute Opportunist for Defensive roll and cheat death becomes deadly shadow capstone. (they aren't in the builder at the moment)

Anyone else who has a template for consideration in the main post just leme know, be happy to take a look.

[Fionivar]

8 points of bonus differential maps to 12 points on a two-hander, and then you can also count on an additional 8 points of sneak attack damage.

As of right now, this is an issue with two handers. You do NOT get 1.5xdex wielding a 2h, that only applies to strength. So a 46(+18) means +18dmg/+18SA, where as if you go STR, you end up with about 36(+13) STR and 34(+12)DEX, meaning +19dmg/+12SA. Dex is still better, you'll have better AC too. However the STR will have access to a lot more sticks to play with, without a HUGE loss in DPS. If they do add the 1.5DEX though, it gets real interesting.


Phenx, in your TR build, you have all your tomes at lvl 1. It just matters for INT in that your TR has 7 more skill points than it should if that is the case.

[The_Phenx]

Phenx, in your TR build, you have all your tomes at lvl 1. It just matters for INT in that your TR has 7 more skill points than it should if that is the case.

I just added them at 1 so I wouldn't forget.

The builder is smart enough not to add the skill points till the appropriate levels, so all skills are accurate.

Just hit the TR button... Baby preying again.

[Fionivar]

Hmm, at lvl 1 you have spent 36 skill points (9basex4), at lvl 2 you spend 10 skill points, 8 base with a +1 for a 12 INT should be 9. I never assume a program does what it should ;) I'm planning on TRing with tomes, and I'm not sure the builder handles them the same way the game does.

[Meetch1972]

Here is a cool fraps from Rest showing it all off -------> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFzWnsk0t94

Just a minor thing - the above video has been "removed by user". Any replacements? Or remove the link. :)

[cforce]

As of right now, this is an issue with two handers. You do NOT get 1.5xdex wielding a 2h, that only applies to strength. So a 46(+18) means +18dmg/+18SA, where as if you go STR, you end up with about 36(+13) STR and 34(+12)DEX, meaning +19dmg/+12SA. Dex is still better, you'll have better AC too. However the STR will have access to a lot more sticks to play with, without a HUGE loss in DPS. If they do add the 1.5DEX though, it gets real interesting.


Boooo!

I was really liking the DEX route for the higher to-hit. This scuttles my plans, though -- I needed the damage differential to justify the limited staff selection. Oh, well.

[The_Phenx]

Boooo!

I was really liking the DEX route for the higher to-hit. This scuttles my plans, though -- I needed the damage differential to justify the limited staff selection. Oh, well.

Ya the Dev's said its something they hope to fix. Its why I hope they never never never (1000x never) decide to make all staffs finesse.

As it will kinda kill the dps of a staffer.

[The_Phenx]

Just a minor thing - the above video has been "removed by user". Any replacements? Or remove the link. :)

Wow ok ya I will remove it.

And I will try and re-post one once I get preying back up to high levels again.

[The_Phenx]

Hmm, at lvl 1 you have spent 36 skill points (9basex4), at lvl 2 you spend 10 skill points, 8 base with a +1 for a 12 INT should be 9. I never assume a program does what it should ;) I'm planning on TRing with tomes, and I'm not sure the builder handles them the same way the game does.

Ya those tumble +2... should be +1 Editing the generated code. :D

[The_Phenx]

New attempt up to get the devs to fix showtime.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3346448#post3346448

Maybe if enough of us weigh in it will gain some traction.

[tfdac]

Hi

I've been reading this thread since day one and loving the idea of the build. I designed mine as a 13 Rogue / 7 Fighter (Acro2-Kensei1) and I'm currently leveling it up as my second true reincarnation. My first two lives were both monk and I'd always thought to make this build as my third life then TR back to a ninja spy monk for the rogue past life feats. I've now reached level nine on the build below and I'm seriously considering not going back to monk because it is so much fun to play both solo and group.

My play style is more of a up front fighter relying on the tactical feats and the associated dwarf / fighter enhancements to them, utilizing my sneak attack damage as a bonus when able. So far I've had no issues keeping up with the "roguely" abilities for traps, locks, UMD, etc at each level as well.

Since this is my third life I've amassed a varying array of weapons and gear which certainly makes the leveling process smoother. Main weapons I have at this point that do / will see most use:

Souleater (simply ridiculous ML 7 weapon)
Greensteel Staff with Flaming burst / Radiance
+2 / +5 Metalline QS of Pure Good

Question I have for others
- do you find that making a Min 2 staff is worthwhile in addition to the Radiance one?
- Has anyone done a trap the soul staff? Thoughts on it?
- Any feedback about my version is appreciated. As I've only played pure monks really this is my first venture not only to the rogue and fighter classes but multi-classing in general.


Of note on the build below - Crippling Strike at 20 is a placeholder for the Opportunist feat.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Wytina Tleilaxu
Level 20 Chaotic Good Dwarf Female
(7 Fighter \ 13 Rogue)
Hit Points: 350
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 15
Will: 6

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 16 23 25
Dexterity 16 18 21
Constitution 18 20 21
Intelligence 14 16 16
Wisdom 8 10 10
Charisma 6 8 8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Feat/Enhancement
Modified Skills
Skills (Level 20)
Balance 34
Bluff 0
Concentration 6
Diplomacy 23
Disable Device 26
Haggle -1
Heal 0
Hide 14
Intimidate 0
Jump 33
Listen 0
Move Silently 11
Open Lock 24
Perform n/a
Repair 3
Search 28
Spot 0
Swim 7
Tumble 31
Use Magic Device 22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble I


Level 2 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Selected) Improved Trip
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Rogue Balance II
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble II


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 10 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III


Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Flanking Mastery I


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II


Level 13 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II


Level 14 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II


Level 17 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Kensei Quarterstaff Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I


Level 19 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III

[The_Phenx]

A greensteel Min II is definitely more DPS than a metalline pg even against mobs who are immune to acid damage.

On Preying I have

Radiance
Min II
LS II
Earthgrab

The only one I feel I could live without is the earthgrab.

The lightning is the best thing against undead and elementals. Which seeing as they cant be sneaked, you get the idea.

SO onto the build.

Strange that your doing a tactics dwarf, warforged and now Half Orc are more suited for that kinda thing, especially with all the fighter bonuses etc.

7 fighter? I would think with your love of monks you would do a 13/6/1 Acro II Kensai I + monk for the ac and strikes.

Other than that all looks solid!

[tfdac]

A greensteel Min II is definitely more DPS than a metalline pg even against mobs who are immune to acid damage.

On Preying I have

Radiance
Min II
LS II
Earthgrab

The only one I feel I could live without is the earthgrab.

The lightning is the best thing against undead and elementals. Which seeing as they cant be sneaked, you get the idea.



Thanks for the input. I have Earthgrab on my GS cloak (E/E/E) so certainly won't be making that as a staff. Looks like I'll work on a MinII next. Trap the Soul really intrigues me just from a fun perspective and its use to power rogue traps etc should they ever become truly valid / usable.



Strange that your doing a tactics dwarf, warforged and now Half Orc are more suited for that kinda thing, especially with all the fighter bonuses etc.

7 fighter? I would think with your love of monks you would do a 13/6/1 Acro II Kensai I + monk for the ac and strikes.

Other than that all looks solid!

My guild is an all dwarf guild (see sig below), which is the primary reason. Additionally, Dwarves get the same tactic enhancements as WF / HO that increase the DC's. Is there something else that would give the non dwarf the edge here that I'm missing? In my opinion, a Dwarf is (stat-wise) essentially the same as a Warforged without the immunities and without looking really lame :-)

I thought about the splash monk but went fighter 7 instead for the following:
-- Fighter 7 opens up another rank of some enhancements
-- One level of monk stances or strikes is not by any means a make or break. Nice for flavor and fun.
-- Its nice actually being able to wear real armor, use different weapons, etc.

All of these are just personal preference, of course. Thanks a lot for your comments - this is a great thread and I'm glad to have been able to contribute to it.

[The_Phenx]

Additionally, Dwarves get the same tactic enhancements as WF / HO that increase the DC's. Is there something else that would give the non dwarf the edge here that I'm missing? In my opinion, a Dwarf is (stat-wise) essentially the same as a Warforged without the immunities and without looking really lame :-)

Half-orc specifically will do a lot more damage. With their weapon and power attack enhancements.. wf get the power attack chain. When your a non halfling you loose out on the guile line and most folks seek to replace that dps loss with brute force.



-- Fighter 7 opens up another rank of some enhancements


Makes sense



-- Its nice actually being able to wear real armor, use different weapons, etc.


As long as it is light armor...don't want to loose evasion.

About the thread... its funny to go back and look at how much has changed between the build and the game.

[tfdac]

Oh, I agree that half orc will do more damage - my comment was more specifically about the tactics (stun, trip, etc) and if / how the warforged and halforcs were somehow better through additional enhancements I wasn't aware of.

I just like dwarfs too much to min max to that degree anyway.

[The_Phenx]

Dc's are equivalent.

Just folks who are focusing on tactics go for wf and now half orc because of the additional dps, which keeps the equivalent in output to a halfling.

But far be it for me to tell anyone not to do something out of the norm lol.

[Arkadios]

Is there a varient to the OPs build for Half-Orcs? thanks

[Failedlegend]

Is there a varient to the OPs build for Half-Orcs? thanks

Take those stats and stick em on a HO not much difference except more strength.

[The_Phenx]

Is there a varient to the OPs build for Half-Orcs? thanks

Not yet.

Half Orc isnt loaded into the builder yet. I will try and give some tips tomorrow.

[Alkirri]

Have been lurking here for a bit and intending on trying something similar with a HO going 13/6/1 rg,dark mnk, fght. 32pt with veteran going 18 16 14 10 8 6. My inexperience leads me to a couple questions, how soon should I take that fighter lvl and, if I'm not that concerned about traps and such, how would you suggest spending skill points per each class. Thanks for any suggestions and help ahead of time.

[Failedlegend]

Have been lurking here for a bit and intending on trying something similar with a HO going 13/6/1 rg,dark mnk, fght. 32pt with veteran going 18 16 14 10 8 6. My inexperience leads me to a couple questions, how soon should I take that fighter lvl and, if I'm not that concerned about traps and such, how would you suggest spending skill points per each class. Thanks for any suggestions and help ahead of time.

OK if I'm reading what you said right your making a 13rogue/6monk/1fighter...right? whats the fighter lvl for you really dont get anything aside from a feat from it 7 monk would be far more useful.....also why aren't you doing trapskills A) you'll be expected to get traps B) rogues get so many skill points theres no reason not to

[The_Phenx]

the fighter level gets you some enhancements (1st tier of tactics & toughness feats) proficiency with weapons etc.

[The_Phenx]

Is there a varient to the OPs build for Half-Orcs? thanks

Just off the cuff here.

I would go for max str

Make up the difference in putting int down to 12, and lower dex a touch. Since with this guy your dps is going to be direct damage. You should still be about a 26-28 dex when your done for a +8/+9 per hit damage boost.

Take all the half-orc quarterstaff and great weapon enhancements, instead of the halfling guile line, but I would only take 1 tier or just plain stay away from the power attack line since your to hit might get too low.

Personally I would probably go for 20 rogue with the full THF chain instead of doing a monk splash, since this guy will be more of a dps monster, and less about support and AC. It will also help you fill out all your skills since your dex and int will be lower, but that choice is yours.

It is a 5d6 a swing difference between 17/3 and 20 rogue.

The other best best I feel is a 13/6/1 rogue fighter monk tactics build, Acrobat II Kensai I, could have a very effective stunning blow & improved trip, and Half-Orcs do good direct damage, and have tactics boosting enhancements, you would have a lot of success even with aggro.

my $.03

[Alkirri]

Ok as far as traps go, was only considering not putting too much into them because I was thinking I migh be too stretched with the low int and only 13 rogue lvls. Was thinking dark monk because if I'm understanding the new configuration, I should be able to get ninja spy 1 and acro 2? Shouldn't that help with some of the sneak attack loss while still adding to my ac? And as far as the fighter lvl, not really sure what the gain or loss would be I guess, but it seemed like a it might be useful. But I guess my real question is where to concentrate my skill points to max my output with each different class

[The_Phenx]

Search Spot Open Lock UMD Disable Device.

You "should" be able to keep these maxed if you plan out your level splits right.

This will make you a competant rogue.. which most folks will thank you for.

Most Epic traps are 52 spot 52 search... seems to be the number to reach. +15 - +20 Items, Greater Heroism, SKill Boost, Head of good fortune.... etc....

[kernal42]

The other best best I feel is a 13/6/1 rogue fighter monk tactics build, Acrobat II Kensai I, could have a very effective stunning blow & improved trip, and Half-Orcs do good direct damage, and have tactics boosting enhancements, you would have a lot of success even with aggro.


I believe horcs don't get the tactics line that WF/dwarves get, unfortunately. After the +4 str racial, that puts them 1 behind on DCs. I was thinking of going for stunning blow on mine, but I don't think I can get the DC high enough (I'd hope for ~40 standing). Attempt, using the 13/6/1 template:

Str: 18 (base) +4 (racial) +6 (item) +2 (tome) +5 (levels) +3 (excep) +2 (rage) +2 (sun stance) +2 (madstone) = 44 (+17)
DC: 10 (base) +17 (str) +1 (fighter tactics) +10 (qstaff) = 38

Going 13/6/1 rogue/fighter/monk (or 13/7) looks better - you'd reach 41 DC, pick up some hp, and get +2 attack/+5.5 damage compared to the Ninja Spy's +1d6 sneak attack. You miss out on some AC, shadow fade, and healing amp.

Cheers,
Kernal

Edit: I originally posted thinking you were suggesting a rogue/monk/fighter split, but I see now I've misread and we're suggesting the same thing. It's certainly worth considering!

[kernal42]

Rough comparison, largely for my own thoughts, between 13/6/1 (sun stance) and 20 rogue:

13/6/1:
+5 combat DC (stunning blow at 41)
+5 to-hit [+2 with PA enh]
+7 to-damage [+13 with PA enh]
+46 hp
+5 fort save, +1 will save
+wis to AC

20:
+1 sneak attack to-hit
+7d6 sneak attack damage (24.5)
Improved Evasion [or crippling strike]
38 skill points

The pure build for sure wins at dps when sneak attacking, by at least 10 damage/hit. They'll be about equal vs 50% fort targets. The increased stunning blow DC might be enough to convince me about the 13/6/1 build; I'll have to take a closer look to see if those skill points are important.

Cheers,
Kernal

[The_Phenx]

Edit: I originally posted thinking you were suggesting a rogue/monk/fighter split, but I see now I've misread and we're suggesting the same thing. It's certainly worth considering!


Heh no worries... I am glad you worked out the DC's I didn't want to :)

THe 13/6/1 gets either imp evasion or crippling.. but going pure you can add the opportunist to those as well for 10% fort reduction + 3% doublestrike to that as well as the skill feat. Which are the 4 I would take.

But as a multiclass non halfling you loose out on guile too.. depends on if you wanna do more direct or sneak damage.

[kernal42]

THe 13/6/1 gets either imp evasion or crippling.. but going pure you can add the opportunist to those as well for 10% fort reduction + 3% doublestrike to that as well as the skill feat. Which are the 4 I would take.


I took doublestrike for granted; I mean, how could a qstaff build not take doublestrike? The second bonus rogue feat is a tossup between crippling and imp evasion (I'm personally leaning toward crippling, but I'll have to see how my ref save ends up looking), and of course the 13/6/1 build misses out on the fourth feat which, as you say, is likely to be the skills.

Right now the 13/6/1 build is looking more appealing for four reasons:
1) I don't play a huge amount, and this is not my main (yet) so end-game gear is somewhat unlikely. For this reason, I'm even more worried about to-hit than I might otherwise be.
2) I like the increased base damage for glancing blows, crits, and, most importantly, SA-immune foes. I've never played a rogue, though, so maybe this is less of an issue than I imagine.
3) I'm a sucker for stunning blow.
4) Perhaps most importantly, the hp increase. I made an estimate earlier of a pure 20 build late-game hp, and came to the number of 350. This felt woefully inadequate. Boosting this to around 400 is something I'd be more comfortable with (though it's still a little low).

Perhaps you can comment on the hp issue? From your earlier posts it sounds like you've been running plenty of epics/end-game adventures. What hp have you ended up with, and do you find it adequate?

Cheers,
Kernal

[DareDelvis]

How much of advantage is crippling strike in end-game?

I have a pure 20 halfling assassin and a halfling 16/3 that I will likely LR into pure 20 dont want to TR again til I get some 20's on raids.

Anyway, I am not noticing the crippling strike being very advantageous anymore. Mobs either die long before the stat damage makes a difference or the are immune (I think epics are immune, right?).

So, imp evasion, opportunist and maybe the + to skills for the pure.

[kernal42]

I'm intrigued by the "Horc Staff Master" thread, which is using barb instead of fighter. As a horc, a barb6 rage will give +8 str and +6 con. In frenzy, you can get another +2 str and 2d6 damage. Fitting in the above comparison:

13/6/1 rogue/barb/fighter gives (in rage/frenzy):
+6 DC
+6 to-hit [+1 to-hit with full PA enh]
+7.5 +2d6 damage [+17.5+2d6 = +24.5 with full PA enh]
+80 hp; +140 raged

Assuming to-hit isn't an issue (read: full PA enhancements), horc 13/6/1 should match the damage per hit of a halfling rogue20 against a 0% fort target, and beat it on glancing blows and crits. I'm not sure how well I could sustain the rage, though. Can a raged barb do traps?

-Kernal

[The_Phenx]

crippling and imp evasion (I'm personally leaning toward crippling, but I'll have to see how my ref save ends up looking)l

Depends on your end game. Crippling is useless in epic, and next to useless in Amarath, and only partially useless in the vale. :D IMP. Evasion however is a lifesaver in DQ epic.



1) I don't play a huge amount, and this is not my main (yet) so end-game gear is somewhat unlikely. For this reason, I'm even more worried about to-hit than I might otherwise be.

The halfling has a higher to hit by +4 from the guile... But honestly, use madstone or DP clickies...they are the way to go.



4) Perhaps most importantly, the hp increase. I made an estimate earlier of a pure 20 build late-game hp, and came to the number of 350. This felt woefully inadequate. Boosting this to around 400 is something I'd be more comfortable with (though it's still a little low).

Perhaps you can comment on the hp issue? From your earlier posts it sounds like you've been running plenty of epics/end-game adventures. What hp have you ended up with, and do you find it adequate?


Preying (before I TR'd him) was at 427 base, and could climb over 500 with the right buffs, but usually madstone + rage has him at 487. I find this to be just fine for epics/high end, any mob I fight is blinded and I am usually displaced so there is a lot of missing going on, if they do get thru I keep stoneskin wands around so I always have 10dr.

Thats just direct damage... caster the evasion kicks in and I don't worry about, except the Abbot, I have a bad habit of bombing my saves with him around.

I am just fine with him in every epic, and have been last man standing more than once (not in guild runs tho :D).

[The_Phenx]

How much of advantage is crippling strike in end-game?

I have a pure 20 halfling assassin and a halfling 16/3 that I will likely LR into pure 20 dont want to TR again til I get some 20's on raids.

Anyway, I am not noticing the crippling strike being very advantageous anymore. Mobs either die long before the stat damage makes a difference or the are immune (I think epics are immune, right?).

So, imp evasion, opportunist and maybe the + to skills for the pure.

Crippling strike is dare I say it.... worthless at end game. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[The_Phenx]

Can a raged barb do traps?

Don't know, the build sounds pretty cool tho.

[tkneip1874]

no you cannot do traps when raging

[Failedlegend]

no you cannot do traps when raging

You know that makes perfect sense being that traps,etc. are things that take precision