Big F'n Stick Build

[Tusc]

I've read through this entire thread at least once, and parts of it several other times. And I think somebody might have asked this already but I can't find it, and I'm tired of looking.

With acrobat 2 you get immunity to knockdowns and slippery surfaces, so why the points in balance? Is there some other effect that puts you on your back?

[Arkat]

I've read through this entire thread at least once, and parts of it several other times. And I think somebody might have asked this already but I can't find it, and I'm tired of looking.

With acrobat 2 you get immunity to knockdowns and slippery surfaces, so why the points in balance? Is there some other effect that puts you on your back?

Hmmm...you know, that's a damned good question.

[Feynt]

Aside from making the climb to Acrobat II easier, I can't think of a reason. Afterward it's just wasted points. But you get enough points to spend a few frivolously.

[onethreeone]

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but I didn't see it in the skimming I did.

Why 18/2? Is it solely for the hope that Acrobat III comes out some day?

Why not 17/3? It seems that you'd be only losing Trap Sense for Fast Movement and the healing path. I know the strikes work with kamas, and am assuming that they still work with quarterstaves. That would give you access to healing strikes + buffs (e.g. Walk on the Sun I think is the name?)

[t0r012]

yeah I'm not running by the template I took 1 monk for now and I'll see if I decided to go monk 1, 2 or 3. I don't see it as an immediate need to pick up the bonus feat and I want to hold off the decision as late as possible to maybe catch a whiff of what acrobat 3 will bring to decide on staying monk 1 or possibly going 3. so for now rouge 5/ monk 1.
besides I think getting the speed from acrobatI sooner will benefit me more than an extra feat will now.

so no more semi regular end quest rewards like the BWBs where I can grind a quest for a stick eh? , bummer.
with a 28pt build I have been ignoring haggle and focusing on UMD and trap monkey skills. so the money isn't quite rolling in yet. guess I could hold back on the tumble/spot a bit.

I did pick up 1 half decent kama the other day that I held on to , I didn't think about going wraps except when I was punching when my good stick went away, before I switched to my alt.

[sephiroth1084]

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but I didn't see it in the skimming I did.

Why 18/2? Is it solely for the hope that Acrobat III comes out some day?

Why not 17/3? It seems that you'd be only losing Trap Sense for Fast Movement and the healing path. I know the strikes work with kamas, and am assuming that they still work with quarterstaves. That would give you access to healing strikes + buffs (e.g. Walk on the Sun I think is the name?)

Yeah, pretty sure he stated that he was assuming that Acrobat III would be good. We'll probably be getting True Reincarnation by the time Acrobat 3 comes out, so we will have the tools to correct for our decisions, though I'm holding off on leveling my attempt at this guy for a while--have enough other characters I'm working on anyway.

If Acrobat III ends up being mediocre, I may go up to 6 monk, get Fists of Light and tier II Wind Stance, Fast Movement, etc...

Does the fast movement from monk stack with that of Acrobat, by the way?

[t0r012]

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but I didn't see it in the skimming I did.

Why 18/2? Is it solely for the hope that Acrobat III comes out some day?

Why not 17/3? It seems that you'd be only losing Trap Sense for Fast Movement and the healing path. I know the strikes work with kamas, and am assuming that they still work with quarterstaves. That would give you access to healing strikes + buffs (e.g. Walk on the Sun I think is the name?)

yeah we have been taking about that. I am of more of mind to go 19/1 or 17/3.
I like the FOL healing but and I took fire but I'm going to skip the others(can't take water not enough wis) right now I'm wishing I hadn't taken he fire to save the AP.
We are holding out hope for Acro III being really good.

[onethreeone]

yeah we have been taking about that. I am of more of mind to go 19/1 or 17/3.
I like the FOL healing but and I took fire but I'm going to skip the others(can't take water not enough wis) right now I'm wishing I hadn't taken he fire to save the AP.
We are holding out hope for Acro III being really good.

Is there an ETA on Acro III, or is it just the trademarked "soon"? If so, I'm guessing reincarnation will be here well before that enhancement.

[The_Phenx]

I've read through this entire thread at least once, and parts of it several other times. And I think somebody might have asked this already but I can't find it, and I'm tired of looking.

With acrobat 2 you get immunity to knockdowns and slippery surfaces, so why the points in balance? Is there some other effect that puts you on your back?

Be happy to answer.

TITAN

Although you wont get laid out you can still get bounced off ledges stalled and made to hold still... with a high enough balance score your completely unaffected. I throw on the +15 balance boots from C06 and I am golden.

That being said.. it is only 1 quest... you could probably do without it.

[The_Phenx]

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but I didn't see it in the skimming I did.

Why 18/2? Is it solely for the hope that Acrobat III comes out some day?

Why not 17/3? It seems that you'd be only losing Trap Sense for Fast Movement and the healing path. I know the strikes work with kamas, and am assuming that they still work with quarterstaves. That would give you access to healing strikes + buffs (e.g. Walk on the Sun I think is the name?)

Yep it was for acrobat III... If its worthless I will be doing a res on him and coming back as a 17/3...Only time will tell tho...

Since Fists of light would rock. Yes the strikes work just fine with quarterstaves.

[The_Phenx]

yeah I'm not running by the template I took 1 monk for now and I'll see if I decided to go monk 1, 2 or 3. I don't see it as an immediate need to pick up the bonus feat and I want to hold off the decision as late as possible to maybe catch a whiff of what acrobat 3 will bring to decide on staying monk 1 or possibly going 3. so for now rouge 5/ monk 1.
besides I think getting the speed from acrobatI sooner will benefit me more than an extra feat will now.

so no more semi regular end quest rewards like the BWBs where I can grind a quest for a stick eh? , bummer.
with a 28pt build I have been ignoring haggle and focusing on UMD and trap monkey skills. so the money isn't quite rolling in yet. guess I could hold back on the tumble/spot a bit.

I did pick up 1 half decent kama the other day that I held on to , I didn't think about going wraps except when I was punching when my good stick went away, before I switched to my alt.

Try not to hold back on spot... its kinda a good thing to have... tumble is mainly for aesthetics and can be ignored... since all it does is mitigate falling damage (which featherfall negates), and when you hit the mid 30's you can do flips...which once again dont really do anything but look cool. :)

There is one mroe staff I think... from Thernal? maybe I will have to look into it... ITs an adamantine one... Gimme a day or two I will get back to you.

[The_Phenx]

Is there an ETA on Acro III, or is it just the trademarked "soon"? If so, I'm guessing reincarnation will be here well before that enhancement.

Mod 1 I think... Dreaming dark was was update 1... so possibly december? Late November? something like that if I had ot guess.

[The_Phenx]

Does the fast movement from monk stack with that of Acrobat, by the way?

Absolutely no clue..... but 6 monk is another very viable choice... LOTS of bonuses there... only time will tell and there are a LOT of way to mix acrobats and monks together...

[Dartwick]

Maybe there wont be a 3rd one.

By design its a rather well suited line to multiclassing.

[The_Phenx]

There are tier III for all Prestige classes...

[sephiroth1084]

Maybe there wont be a 3rd one.

By design its a rather well suited line to multiclassing.

There are tier III for all Prestige classes...

Or at least will be "Soon.":rolleyes:

[Aerendil]

Absolutely no clue..... but 6 monk is another very viable choice... LOTS of bonuses there... only time will tell and there are a LOT of way to mix acrobats and monks together...

Yep, I quite like the 13 Rogue / 6 Monk / 1 XXX split, or even a 13 Rogue / 7 Monk split.
Wholeness of Body is simply phenomenal for soloability.

[wahrheit]

I'm thinking about starting to focus towards getting kensai I into the 2monk/4rogue I've got on cannith right now (instead of going 6-8monk or 18 rogue).

From what I can tell I lose:
3d6 SA damage (i.e. 10.5 per hit sneak attack), Improved evasion, +1 all skills, +2 AC/Saves to traps, 36 skill points (taken from: hide, move silently, haggle); and of course the ability to go Acrobat III should the PrC ever come up (then again we don't know what it is).

And would gain:
+3 to fort saves,+1 tohit with blunt, +2 damage to blunt, +4 confirm crit, +4 tohit boost, +1bluff,concentration,intimidate, diplomacy, DC's for stunning blow/trip, saves, and an extra action boost. On top of that, +1 tohit/+2 damage/+4 crit damage and improved glancing blows for qstaffs; +2 str from fighter str line, another 20 hps from toughness enhancements (and 16hp from levels of fighter), +3 BAB, stunning blow and improved trip. Would also gain the various bonuses to trip/stunning blow (+5 trip and +1 stunning blow I think?)

Here's the general idea, anyone have any ideas? comments? etc? Would this gimp me late game? I've tried the original posted build on sarlona and it worked great but I'm looking for a little flavor to use to help a friend on the server...:D



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

BigHitty Stick
Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Male
(6 Fighter \ 2 Monk \ 12 Rogue)
Hit Points: 250
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 19
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 15 22
Dexterity 15 20
Constitution 13 13
Intelligence 14 14
Wisdom 11 13
Charisma 8 8

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 4 18
Bluff -1 2
Concentration 1 1
Diplomacy 3 22
Disable Device 6 25
Haggle 3 9
Heal 0 1
Hide 2 7
Intimidate -1 -1
Jump 6 19
Listen 0 3
Move Silently 4 9
Open Lock 6 28
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 2
Search 6 25
Spot 4 24
Swim 2 6
Tumble 6 21
Use Magic Device 3 22

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 7 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 10 (Fighter)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Trip


Level 16 (Rogue)


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 19 (Rogue)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Kensei Quarterstaff Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Halfling Guile II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Disciple of Breezes
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I
Enhancement: Rogue Balance II
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble I
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II

[Aerendil]

I'm thinking about starting to focus towards getting kensai I into the 2monk/4rogue I've got on cannith right now (instead of going 6-8monk or 18 rogue).
*snip*

Well, IMO the big advantage for going Kensai comes at tier II (lvl 12) - power surge. It absolutely rocks.
Similarly, the big advantage for going Acrobat comes at tier II - the haste and immunity to knockdown. So in theory, you should pick one or the other.

For what it's worth, in your proposed build you're giving up level 13 Rogue, which means you lose d6 sneak attack damage, Crippling Strike (which is a huge loss), and some minor enhancements. Personally I'd rather switch it to 13/6/1 if you wanted to go that route. Radiance weaponry + crippling strike is uber - ask any Rogue.

All of those Kensai I bonuses you listed look good on paper, but in all honesty, the only thing you'll probably notice is +3 or 4 damage per hit over the Rogue/Monk setup. That's about it. But you also completely gimp your trapsmithing skills. Up to you.

[The_Phenx]

Well, IMO the big advantage for going Kensai comes at tier II (lvl 12) - power surge. It absolutely rocks.
Similarly, the big advantage for going Acrobat comes at tier II - the haste and immunity to knockdown. So in theory, you should pick one or the other.

For what it's worth, in your proposed build you're giving up level 13 Rogue, which means you lose d6 sneak attack damage, Crippling Strike (which is a huge loss), and some minor enhancements. Personally I'd rather switch it to 13/6/1 if you wanted to go that route. Radiance weaponry + crippling strike is uber - ask any Rogue.

All of those Kensai I bonuses you listed look good on paper, but in all honesty, the only thing you'll probably notice is +3 or 4 damage per hit over the Rogue/Monk setup. That's about it. But you also completely gimp your trapsmithing skills. Up to you.

Agreed... 13 rouge 6 fighter 1 monk......... Acrobat II Kensai I

Once again.. depends on acrobat III... you will have a big loss of rouge skills... if you dont care about this no biggie

1 reccomendation... this type of build is WAY better suited to being a warforged... for thier additional tactical, THF, and power attack enhancements.

[t0r012]

Since I haven't said so yet , thanks The_Phenx.

Aside from posting a nice fun build you have spent lots of extra time to help and answer a bunch of questions.

So again, Thank you

[sephiroth1084]

Well, IMO the big advantage for going Kensai comes at tier II (lvl 12) - power surge. It absolutely rocks.
Similarly, the big advantage for going Acrobat comes at tier II - the haste and immunity to knockdown. So in theory, you should pick one or the other.

For what it's worth, in your proposed build you're giving up level 13 Rogue, which means you lose d6 sneak attack damage, Crippling Strike (which is a huge loss), and some minor enhancements. Personally I'd rather switch it to 13/6/1 if you wanted to go that route. Radiance weaponry + crippling strike is uber - ask any Rogue.


I was going to say the same--that 2nd level of monk matters a lot less when you're picking up extra feats from fighter.

[Slototh]

Would Lawful Neutral be a better alignment since UMD is maxed for good weapons, and so you don't take negative levels with taint of evil items?

I'm interested in starting up a whack-a-mole rogue like this but I'm stuck on the alignment at creation.

(sorry if this has been discussed already)

[Dartwick]

...... depends on acrobat III... you will have a big loss of rouge skills... if you dont care about this no biggie
.....

I would think a bard might be better at putting on makeup.

[Feynt]

Acrobats are performers too, we need to look good for the audience when we get out there! >D

[The_Phenx]

Since I haven't said so yet , thanks The_Phenx.

Aside from posting a nice fun build you have spent lots of extra time to help and answer a bunch of questions.

So again, Thank you

No problem at all.. gives me something to do at work :D

[The_Phenx]

Would Lawful Neutral be a better alignment since UMD is maxed for good weapons, and so you don't take negative levels with taint of evil items?

I'm interested in starting up a whack-a-mole rogue like this but I'm stuck on the alignment at creation.

(sorry if this has been discussed already)

good weapons are strong thru the whole game... yes the evil damage is irritating but it doesnt get much greater than a couple d6...

Its also a few levels into the build before you can umd all those weapons..

Oh and put another tip up in the main post... SHIELD WANDS...

[The_Phenx]

so no more semi regular end quest rewards like the BWBs where I can grind a quest for a stick eh? , bummer.

I found that other low level good stick... Highlights are +2 Adamantine Ghost Touch (and some other wizard junk)

Drops out fo the 9th level necropolis series...

There was one other I remember seeing but I cant find it...

Anyway I put a listing in the main post of the best staffs + most important gear and where to get them.

Obviously things like the black widow cracers go away eventually... but you get the idea

[Aerendil]

Yeah, best named ones I've seen so far were:
- Pillar of Light (Catacombs) = +1 QS of Pure Good (perfect for Delera's)
- Theurgic Staff (Threnal South)= +1 QS, adamantine, elemental bane (perfect for slaying elementals)
- Witching Hour (Necropolis II shadow crypt) = +2 QS, adamantine, ghost touch
- Stave of the Seer (forget where this one is - maybe VoN4?. Dunno) = +1QS, +5 UMD (the UMD accessory staff!)

Nothing really major in the way of QSs, to be honest. You're better off with random generated staves, IMO.
Watch for ghost touch of pure good staves, as well as transmuting ones.
Righteousness is always a nice thing to have to. And just keep upgrading to the highest +to-hit ones you can find.

[The_Phenx]

Added the two I was missing... ya shroud crafting makes the best ones...but breeze and rahl's might hold some promise.

[rest]

There is one mroe staff I think... from Thernal? maybe I will have to look into it... ITs an adamantine one... Gimme a day or two I will get back to you.

Adamantine and Elemental Bane.


edit: someone beat me to it :o

[rest]

Yeah, best named ones I've seen so far were:
- Pillar of Light (Catacombs) = +1 QS of Pure Good (perfect for Delera's)
- Theurgic Staff (Threnal South)= +1 QS, adamantine, elemental bane (perfect for slaying elementals)
- Witching Hour (Necropolis II shadow crypt) = +2 QS, adamantine, ghost touch
- Stave of the Seer (forget where this one is - maybe VoN4?. Dunno) = +1QS, +5 UMD (the UMD accessory staff!)

Nothing really major in the way of QSs, to be honest. You're better off with random generated staves, IMO.
Watch for ghost touch of pure good staves, as well as transmuting ones.
Righteousness is always a nice thing to have to. And just keep upgrading to the highest +to-hit ones you can find.

Stave of the seer comes out of either Ghola Fan or Slavers. I can't recall which at the moment.

[The_Phenx]

Stave of the seer comes out of either Ghola Fan or Slavers. I can't recall which at the moment.

Ghola.. I have one...

Which reminds me... someone is upgrading the staff of inner sight on epic.. be interesting to see what it turns into

[sephiroth1084]

You guys aren't a fan of the Dreamspitter?

+5 GreaterEvil Outsider Bane, and deals 1d3 neg levels on a crit.

[BracchusBridgeburner]

Yep it was for acrobat III... If its worthless I will be doing a res on him and coming back as a 17/3...Only time will tell tho...

Since Fists of light would rock. Yes the strikes work just fine with quarterstaves.

I'm only at 2monk/5rogue so far on your build (omg I love this character thank you!) but I have noticed my solo game is slowing down because my UMD isn't high enough yet for the divine wands to work 100% and I'm starting to take more of a beating solo unless I drop down to level 4-5 quests on normal. Still do-able on hard but at a cost of buying pots. After reading these last couple of pages discussing 17/3 I've decided that for me personally, I doubt acrobat III is going to have anything that I'll value more than Fists of Light since I tend to spend about half of my time soloing so my next level shall indeed be taking the 3rd level of monk. I'm willing to sacrifice a little DPS for surivability, but I don't want dragonmarks.

[Lozareth]

My roommate looted a +3 flaming quarterstaff of pure good and decided he had to play this build. So I had to come with another halfling stick fighter to duo with him and decided on this:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Male
(18 Paladin \ 2 Monk)
Hit Points: 303
Spell Points: 272
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 25
Reflex: 22
Will: 19

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 15 22
Dexterity 15 18
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 10 12
Wisdom 10 12
Charisma 14 18

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 19
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 19
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 19
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 19
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 19
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 19
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Paladin)


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Halfling Hero's Companion I
Enhancement: Halfling Hero's Companion II
Enhancement: Halfling Hero's Companion III
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose I
Enhancement: Disciple of Breezes
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good IV
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III


The high dex is in case I decide to respec him to a typical twf/tank halfling monk/paladin one day.

Had to have monk for air stance and evasion so couldn't pick barbarian. I figured paladin would be best to get the most use out of a two-hander since I won't be going rogue (who needs two rogues in a group). Knight of the Chalice seems like a good alternative to Acrobat plus all the other stuff a paladin brings to a group.

So far our two little stick fighters have been an absolute blast. :)

[Forbbidenone]

I rolled one to 2/7 right now, I built it at 28 no tomes and it still rocks pretty hardcore. Have to say Its my secnod favorite character. Itd be higher but Im workign on 32pt build unlocking on my sorc.

[Angelus_dead]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't really see any comparison of the results of this build compared to the normal TWF rogue style. Ya know, the one with more than 30% more attacks and 60% more crits?

It appears a lot of new players are getting directed to this thread, but it doesn't seem to help them decide if quarterstaff combat is the right choice for them.

[Slototh]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't really see any comparison of the results of this build compared to the normal TWF rogue style. Ya know, the one with more than 30% more attacks and 60% more crits?

It appears a lot of new players are getting directed to this thread, but it doesn't seem to help them decide if quarterstaff combat is the right choice for them.

Assuming the OP's numbers are correct, at 147 swings per minute. Thats higher then someone with just GTWF, you would need Tempest as well, and thats only 151 swings per minute, and those don't gain any glancing blows or the str bonus of Qstaff. Between the loss of crits and gain of glancing blows and str i'd say this Big F'n Stick build is very competitive in DPS with a TWF rogue, while gaining effectiveness against undeads and non critables that TWF lacks.

[gillilandjoshua]

mine is currently 17 and parked for a bit the dps is crazy on this charachter, and just to prove i know what dps is d i have dual wielding rogues as well and a dwarf that duals minII green steel. this build is very fun mine is wf 12 rogue 4 fghtr and 1 monk making use of wf PA and Wf glancing blow enhanchements. build shines with multiple mobs to attack but has good overall raid boss dps aswell as long as u block when u pull aggro of the tank and diplo him.

[Angelus_dead]

Assuming the OP's numbers are correct, at 147 swings per minute. Thats higher then someone with just GTWF, you would need Tempest as well, and thats only 151 swings per minute
Where in the world did you get the idea that a TWF character could have as low as 151 attacks?

[Dartwick]

People are giving noobs unrealistic expectations about staff toons.

I have one. Its a lot of fun. Im trying to optimize my damage and all that.
As far as I can tell this is not close to being the max damage option.

[Arkat]

As far as I can tell this is not close to being the max damage option.

I'm not sure *anyone* claimed it to be a "max damage" toon.

I've seen some "crazy dps" claims which, considering how you're doing your damage, seems pretty accurate. I've also seen some "it's a way fun build" claims which, also considering the play style of the toon, also seems pretty accurate.

So...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cxNR9ML8k

[BracchusBridgeburner]

People are giving noobs unrealistic expectations about staff toons.

I have one. Its a lot of fun. Im trying to optimize my damage and all that.
As far as I can tell this is not close to being the max damage option.


lot of fun? yep he claimed that.
max damage? no, he never claimed that anywhere. I don't think there's any consensus that you MUST min/max to the teeth in this game. I see that mentality being dragged here from another certain MMO along with a lot of other negative baggage though.

edit: I just noticed this is the 2nd (that I've found) thread where you are calling down this particular build. Seems like you have some kind of biased dislike for non-cookie builds, but as I said just a few lines up, I think I have a pretty good idea what MMO you're dragging that baggage from. My advice is that you keep it to yourself if you're unwilling to contribute in a constructive manner.

[Arkat]

lot of fun? yep he claimed that.
max damage? no, he never claimed that anywhere. I don't think there's any consensus that you MUST min/max to the teeth in this game. I see that mentality being dragged here from another certain MMO along with a lot of other negative baggage though.

edit: I just noticed this is the 2nd (that I've found) thread where you are calling down this particular build. Seems like you have some kind of biased dislike for non-cookie builds, but as I said just a few lines up, I think I have a pretty good idea what MMO you're dragging that baggage from. My advice is that you keep it to yourself if you're unwilling to contribute in a constructive manner.

Agreed.

+1 Rep for you.

[Angelus_dead]

edit: I just noticed this is the 2nd (that I've found) thread where you are calling down this particular build. Seems like you have some kind of biased dislike for non-cookie builds, but as I said just a few lines up, I think I have a pretty good idea what MMO you're dragging that baggage from.
Obviously wrong. He's just trying to protect noobs from making a mistake. As you should've been able to tell by reading that other thread you mentioned, quite a few people are pointing new players to this thread as a guide to their first rogue or even first melee character. And that is doing them a disservice.

The reality is that a staff rogue is a pretty poor choice, because it isn't as good as a normal rogue at the things that most people probably want a rogue to be good at. By specializing in staff instead of the normal TWF, a rogue gets the following benefits and penalties:

Advantages
Only need to obtain and carry one weapon for each purpose, instead of pairs.
Less demand for quarterstaves can make them easier to obtain.
A stick-twirling animation may be enjoyable.

Disadvantages
Can only use one specific type of weapon, compared to 5+ for normal rogues, making it harder to get weapons.
Quarterstaves will hardly ever appear in end rewards.
Good named items are hardly ever quarterstaves.
Slower attack rate means much less damage, especially because of fewer Sneak Attacks.
Cannot take Assassin3, which is a borderline overpowered ability.
Less chance of crits, meaning less damage.
Fewer attacks and less crit chance means Radiance3 will trigger much less, providing far fewer opportunities to Sneak Attack and get good damage.
Inability to stack two green weapons means less defense.
A blade-whirling animation may be enjoyable.

It is inconsiderate to direct newbies to try a build without explaining those facts to them.

[Angelus_dead]

I'm not sure *anyone* claimed it to be a "max damage" toon.
Did you read the sentence you just quoted? Do you know what the phrase "anywhere close to" means? How about the term "strawman"?


I've seen some "crazy dps" claims which, considering how you're doing your damage, seems pretty accurate. I've also seen some "it's a way fun build" claims which, also considering the play style of the toon, also seems pretty accurate.
No, those are both very misleading.

To say "crazy DPS" implies that the DPS is somewhat high, which is untrue, as it is actually less than a normal rogue build. And to say "way fun" implies that it is pretty good at the activities most players enjoy in the game, which is being successful at quests. As a less-effective character, most people won't find it a lot of fun.

[sephiroth1084]

I'll agree with A_D that new players really shouldn't be directed to this build as one of their firsts to try, not due to the implication that this is somehow sub-par in terms of DPS or whatever (I thought Quarterstaffs via Acrobat and Wind Stance were really close in swing speed to the attack rate of a TWF rogue), but because this isn't a beginner's build: it has a heavy burden on stat allocation and requires some hard-to-acquire gear to be reasonably useful down the road as well as some uncommon stuff early in the game.

Obviously, I like the character, as I've got one started, but I'd not suggest this to someone new to DDO, or even, probably, trying their first rogue.

[Angelus_dead]

I thought Quarterstaffs via Acrobat and Wind Stance were really close in swing speed to the attack rate of a TWF rogue
They're not.

It's simple:
GTWF = +100% attack rate
Acrobat2 = +15% attack rate
Wind Stance I = +10% attack rate (actually less)

Furthermore, a GTWF character can technically use Wind Stance I if he really wants to (and accepts the weaknesses of kama). I have an Acrobat2 rogue of my own, and can see the effect very easily: in normal combats, using a Shining Cresent (+5 2d6 staff-thing) is less damaging than a pair of +1 light maces.

[Arkat]

You know, there are some really miserable people in the world.

I'm glad I'm not one of them. :)

The Big F'n Stick build IS fun and it does VERY well in quests.

That's all I have to say about that.

[Angelus_dead]

The Big F'n Stick build IS fun and it does VERY well in quests.
Um, have you seen an Assassin3 rogue?

[BracchusBridgeburner]

Um, have you seen an Assassin3 rogue?
actually no, you should link one for people if you're making a case for comparison. Is that fair enough?

[Dartwick]

lot of fun? yep he claimed that.
max damage? no, he never claimed that anywhere. I don't think there's any consensus that you MUST min/max to the teeth in this game. I see that mentality being dragged here from another certain MMO along with a lot of other negative baggage though.

edit: I just noticed this is the 2nd (that I've found) thread where you are calling down this particular build. Seems like you have some kind of biased dislike for non-cookie builds, but as I said just a few lines up, I think I have a pretty good idea what MMO you're dragging that baggage from. My advice is that you keep it to yourself if you're unwilling to contribute in a constructive manner.

Look its a <moderated> trying to grow an e-pene. How ironic.

[Angelus_dead]

actually no, you should link one for people if you're making a case for comparison. Is that fair enough?
How could I link to a rogue? It's a game character, not a web page.

I suppose I could find one on my.ddo.com, but simply looking at the stats and items would be quite uninformative as to the combat effectiveness, which puts every other kind of rogue to shame. If you haven't met an assassin 3 rogue yet, there's a handy way to find one: Look for a player with double or triple the kills of any other party member.

[sephiroth1084]

Um, have you seen an Assassin3 rogue?

Not having Asassin 3 doesn't mean the build is invalid, or that the character is somehow gimped.

Suggesting that new players avoid this build is a fair assertion provided you're doing so for the right reasons, but as far as I can tell, you're not. Honestly, a build doesn't have to toss out the highest possible DPS for its class for it to be relevant, effective and fun.

[Angelus_dead]

Not having Asassin 3 doesn't mean the build is invalid, or that the character is somehow gimped.
As can be read above, I was replying to the specific claim that a staff-acrobat-monk rogue "does VERY well in quests".

The reality is that any kind of rogue can do traps and locks adequately, and anyone with a monk splash can have similar AC. The main point of comparison is the ability to defeat monsters, and on that account it is so far behind that it cannot honestly be said to function "VERY well". Being surprisingly decent for a non-TWF build doesn't mean it is objectively good.

Look, Assasin3 is an absurdly overpowered enhancement, and I'm personally surprised it hasn't been nerfed yet. A GTWF assassin3 rogue is much more dangerous to monsters than any other kind of rogue, and a non-assasin GTWF rogue is quite a bit worse, both in terms of killing trash mobs and debuffing bosses. But a one-weapon rogue is a further tier well below the TWF ones. Even though monk-acrobat-staff is about the most powerful way for a rogue to fight with one weapon, it's still merely the biggest fish in a small pond.

If using standards that are loose enough to conclude that a staff rogue does "VERY well", then one would also say that rogues fighting with S&B rapier or GTWF light maces do well too.


Suggesting that new players avoid this build is a fair assertion provided you're doing so for the right reasons, but as far as I can tell, you're not. Honestly, a build doesn't have to toss out the highest possible DPS for its class for it to be relevant, effective and fun.
My reason is to promote honesty, and to ensure that people have an accurate expectation about how well a non-TWF rogue can perform in combat. The problem with a staff rogue isn't merely that the DPS is not quite the highest, but that the combat effectiveness is noticeably behind the level that a typical TWF rogue will easily attain.

If you took two well-equipped rogues of the acrobat-staff and assassin-rapiers varieties and put them in a quest together, I'd be surprised if the staff wielder got even half the kill count.

[BracchusBridgeburner]

Originally Posted by BracchusBridgeburner http://cdn.content.turbine.com/sites/forums.ddo.com/images/buttons/orange/viewpost.gif (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2543315#post2543315)
lot of fun? yep he claimed that.
max damage? no, he never claimed that anywhere. I don't think there's any consensus that you MUST min/max to the teeth in this game. I see that mentality being dragged here from another certain MMO along with a lot of other negative baggage though.

edit: I just noticed this is the 2nd (that I've found) thread where you are calling down this particular build. Seems like you have some kind of biased dislike for non-cookie builds, but as I said just a few lines up, I think I have a pretty good idea what MMO you're dragging that baggage from. My advice is that you keep it to yourself if you're unwilling to contribute in a constructive manner.


Agreed.

+1 Rep for you.


ty sir :)

[sephiroth1084]

As can be read above, I was replying to the specific claim that a staff-acrobat-monk rogue "does VERY well in quests".

The reality is that any kind of rogue can do traps and locks adequately, and anyone with a monk splash can have similar AC. The main point of comparison is the ability to defeat monsters, and on that account it is so far behind that it cannot honestly be said to function "VERY well". Being surprisingly decent for a non-TWF build doesn't mean it is objectively good.

Look, Assasin3 is an absurdly overpowered enhancement, and I'm personally surprised it hasn't been nerfed yet. A GTWF assassin3 rogue is much more dangerous to monsters than any other kind of rogue, and a non-assasin GTWF rogue is quite a bit worse, both in terms of killing trash mobs and debuffing bosses. But a one-weapon rogue is a further tier well below the TWF ones. Even though monk-acrobat-staff is about the most powerful way for a rogue to fight with one weapon, it's still merely the biggest fish in a small pond.

If using standards that are loose enough to conclude that a staff rogue does "VERY well", then one would also say that rogues fighting with S&B rapier or GTWF light maces do well too.


My reason is to promote honesty, and to ensure that people have an accurate expectation about how well a non-TWF rogue can perform in combat. The problem with a staff rogue isn't merely that the DPS is not quite the highest, but that the combat effectiveness is noticeably behind the level that a typical TWF rogue will easily attain.

If you took two well-equipped rogues of the acrobat-staff and assassin-rapiers varieties and put them in a quest together, I'd be surprised if the staff wielder got even half the kill count.

I could have sworn that I had read in a thread somewhere that Acrobat Q-staff attack rate was very close to that of GTWF (within 10 swings of each other, maybe less), which if my memory serves, would mean that, DPS-wise, this build would be very comparable, as it isn't that far behid on attacks and gains glancing blows.

As for the free vorpal...we could instead compare this build to other melee types to see how it stacks up. Well behind the highest DPS tier, but I'd guess that it's i the second or so.

Also, in comparison to a TWF Assassin rogue, this will deal with SA-immune/high-fort enemies better.


I really have issue with your implying that not having Assassin III makes for a gimped rogue.

[moorewr]

Um, have you seen an Assassin3 rogue?

Yes, AND I've heard the German Band too!

[Dartwick]

well, whether people agree or disagree, at least I can say I respect you for explaining things in a mature and factual manner and not trolling like that other little warcraft cast-off kid earlier ;)
(I suspect he's going to be on a lot of ignore lists)


Go back and reread what I actually said before you and Arkat decided to attack me and insult me.

It was a rather modest caveat to people getting overly excited about this prestige enhancement. I like the acrobat. Its what i have been playing myself lately.
But being that this is a forum its altogether reasonable that I gave my assessment with respect to other recent comments.

That said. You better go find Arkat so you two can get off on patting each other on the back.

[CyberWyld]

I'm still very new to ddo, this is my first character and with no money, no tomes, a 28 pt build and pretty sub standard gear...I'm doing just fine. I have done what the OP suggested for the most part in terms of potions and stuff to sustain my longevity and I have no issue at all with DPS. Thus far I've only come in 2nd one time on the score card, and that was behind a player 1 lvl above me and using firewall on huge groups.

ANY Build in ANY game can be viable (with obvious exceptions like a Paladin with no str or cha and all Int and Wis or something totally stuipid) it just depends on the player and how willing they are to make sacrifices and what not to make their character work.

As has been stated earlier in this thread, this is not WoW, in my short time on ddo I can already tell that the gear/cookie cutter build requirement is far less enforced or even needed here. I think that is a good thing. No one wants or needs another WoW, that game is doing just fine, and I am positive they would welcome you with open arms if you find yourself unhappy here.

There is nothing wrong with this build, once I get to 20 I'll post my findings in a side by side comparison with other dps toons and see how I stack up. As it stands now, I'm having an absolute blast playing this character. Kudos to for making a staff dps character work!



hasta

[The_Phenx]

You guys aren't a fan of the Dreamspitter?

+5 GreaterEvil Outsider Bane, and deals 1d3 neg levels on a crit.

Love it... its listed up front :)

But he devs changed it.. now it has the CHANCE to deal 1d3 neg on a crit :(

[daniel7]

If you chose to do a true reincarnate on this toon will you stick with halfling? What other races would you consider? It seems to me that wf might be a good option with the power attack enhancements...if you don't mind losing some wisdom monk ac and umd.

[The_Phenx]

I'm only at 2monk/5rogue so far on your build (omg I love this character thank you!) but I have noticed my solo game is slowing down because my UMD isn't high enough yet for the divine wands to work 100% and I'm starting to take more of a beating solo unless I drop down to level 4-5 quests on normal. Still do-able on hard but at a cost of buying pots. After reading these last couple of pages discussing 17/3 I've decided that for me personally, I doubt acrobat III is going to have anything that I'll value more than Fists of Light since I tend to spend about half of my time soloing so my next level shall indeed be taking the 3rd level of monk. I'm willing to sacrifice a little DPS for surivability, but I don't want dragonmarks.


Shure that works well.

Dragonmarks AND THF line can be taken together... you just have to loose skill focus umd cleave and combat expertise... there is a lot of wiggle room built in.

Basically 6 feats that you can do whatever you want with to customize.

[The_Phenx]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't really see any comparison of the results of this build compared to the normal TWF rogue style. Ya know, the one with more than 30% more attacks and 60% more crits?

It appears a lot of new players are getting directed to this thread, but it doesn't seem to help them decide if quarterstaff combat is the right choice for them.

I havent done the comparison... wasn't ever meant to, this is NOT a max dps build.

This was all about making the coolest acrobat stick fighter I could :)

I know you like to work #'rs AD go for it... all about making sure folks make the right stuff.

Dont forget now with Rahls MIght... now acrobats have access to a 1d10 19-20 x3 crit weapon... bludgeon slash and pierce... kinda changes the equation a bit...

[The_Phenx]

Assuming the OP's numbers are correct, at 147 swings per minute. Thats higher then someone with just GTWF, you would need Tempest as well, and thats only 151 swings per minute, and those don't gain any glancing blows or the str bonus of Qstaff. Between the loss of crits and gain of glancing blows and str i'd say this Big F'n Stick build is very competitive in DPS with a TWF rogue, while gaining effectiveness against undeads and non critables that TWF lacks.

Remember that # is max boost... but all that aside...this was about making the best thf swing speed + viable rouge skills + fun :)

TWF rouge is better dps vs single opponent this is better in a group situation.

[The_Phenx]

I'm not sure *anyone* claimed it to be a "max damage" toon.

I've seen some "crazy dps" claims which, considering how you're doing your damage, seems pretty accurate. I've also seen some "it's a way fun build" claims which, also considering the play style of the toon, also seems pretty accurate.

So...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cxNR9ML8k

ROFL.. you sir are officially my hero...Stripes FTW.

[The_Phenx]

They're not.

It's simple:
GTWF = +100% attack rate
Acrobat2 = +15% attack rate
Wind Stance I = +10% attack rate (actually less)

Furthermore, a GTWF character can technically use Wind Stance I if he really wants to (and accepts the weaknesses of kama). I have an Acrobat2 rogue of my own, and can see the effect very easily: in normal combats, using a Shining Cresent (+5 2d6 staff-thing) is less damaging than a pair of +1 light maces.

Ummm I think yer #'rs might be a bit off there... but the cresents are a weak staff anyway... the only advantage they have is that they are the only +5 addy staff available and they trip things easy. + if your built for twf you missing out on all the glancing blow damage which at an extra 20 pts or so every other hit its kinda a lotta loss.

Right at the beginning of the 28 pt build part in the main post it say very clearly.

"This is more of an advanced build. If you are looking to do something similar as a new person to the game it will be difficult, but not impossible, read through the thread there is a lot of great information there."

There is nothing sub par however... all trapsmithing skills are right on target...the dps output is just fine... in fact its better than a dex based twf rouge in a bunch of situations... because they are weak vs anything you cant sneak attack...no its not a 5% assasinate chance like Assasin III... but its not meant to be...

And once again for like the 90th time in this thread... its not meant to compare to a twf rouge... its a different idea, its about making a great ACROBAT and stellar fast THF... its a fun build...thats the point.

If you guys have your way there will only be 4 basic builds to this game...

[The_Phenx]

If you chose to do a true reincarnate on this toon will you stick with halfling? What other races would you consider? It seems to me that wf might be a good option with the power attack enhancements...if you don't mind losing some wisdom monk ac and umd.

WF is a very viable option for their enhancement line, but I will prolly stick with halfling because I favor them.. and they arent trees. :D

Honestly tho.. either race is very well suited to this kind of build. I think the warforged hit a touch harder (but its close with halfling guile) but the halflings are easier to heal and a lil more survivable.

[Forbbidenone]

It seems every other post is someone crying that its gimped because it dose not do what 99% of every other rogue is...

This WoW like attitude saddens me. I left WoW in part to get away from cookie cutter min/max un-fun play style. If you don't DO A/B or C/D then you cant go to a raid.

The essence of DnD, and therefore any game even remotely based off it is Creativity is the POINT. That the individual experience is paramount, that the Idea is to have FUN.

I have played Paper for 17 years. I've gamed on digital since IT still made computers. Its always about fun, and Min/Max who has the most kills or biggest critical might not be everyone's Idea of fun.

Let us enjoy what the OP worked on if it suits us, and if I am so terrible you dont want me in your raid so be it. I think I'd rather not be there anyways if its not fun.

[The_Phenx]

Yeah lets knock it all off please.

The point of this thread was to discuss everything quarterstaff/acrobat related and have it as a good resource to develop a fun build.

as for the a/b cookie cutter comments.

This build is NOT a min max build. It is a amusing support build with good - excellent dps and enough rouge skills to tackle that role in all but 2 quests in the game. It was designed to have enough UMD to be a backup/support healer, and use every item it can lay its hands on.

It was designed to make quarterstaves a viable weapon because I felt their animation was the neatest weapon attack chain in the game.

It was designed to be soloable thru high end content once you have acquired the right gear.

It was designed to be fun most of all...

It has accomplished these goals and is an asset to any party.

So no more trolling please.

If you feel people need to be enlightened about the different build characteristics of different rouge builds and prestige classes, please make a new thread.

[The_Phenx]

Anyway.. back on topic.

I checked last evening... and sadly the shining crescents are NOT affected by imp crit bludgeon.

They are a staff for centering and speed and glancing blows.

They are a sickle for damage type:slashing AND for Improved Critical: Slashing.

Still a great choice for beating on golems and zombies tho :)

[Thak_Skyblade]

Is there a reason why this build is a rouge instead of Fighter/monk?

It seems to me that a fighter would get more feats, more BAB, HP, haste, etc. While a rouge would give you OL, DT, Spot etc.

What am I missing here?

I apologize if this has already been addressed.

[Angelus_dead]

Is there a reason why this build is a rouge instead of Fighter/monk?
Because Rogue gets the acrobat enhancement for +15% staff speed. Monks would be way better with handwraps than staff, and Fighters would be much better with falchion or maul or nearly anything else.

[Angelus_dead]

Yeah lets knock it all off please.

The point of this thread was to discuss everything quarterstaff/acrobat related and have it as a good resource to develop a fun build.
Newsflash: Comparing the effectiveness to other kinds of Rogue builds IS discussing something quarterstaff+acrobat related. In fact, it is just about the most important such topic you could discuss about a build; why might a person want to choose it over the alternatives? What do you gain and lose by selecting this option?


The point of this thread was to discuss everything quarterstaff/acrobat related and have it as a good resource to develop a fun build.
It is amusing to see the definition that the word "fun" is having here. Apparently it is being used in the sense of an antonym to "serious", with implications of "potentially ineffective". Quite a lot of people won't expect "fun" to mean that.


This build is NOT a min max build. It is a amusing support build with good - excellent dps and enough rouge skills to tackle that role in all but 2 quests in the game.
Saying things like that is not "knocking it off". If you'd rather people not talk about whether the DPS is good or bad, then you could stop talking about whether the DPS is good or bad.

To claim it has "good - excellent dps" appears untrue on the surface, and it will naturally draw inquiries into how that could possibly be the case.


It was designed to have enough UMD to be a backup/support healer, and use every item it can lay its hands on.
That's something every Rogue should be able to do, and is not really worth mentioning as a benefit of a certain build.

[Angelus_dead]

Still a great choice for beating on golems and zombies tho :)
With New Invasion and Epic Wizard-king, Clay Golems take on a heightened importance and the Cresents won't work. You'll need metalline, or one of those named (and weak) adamantine staves. That is something to complain to the devs about: They made some quarterstaves randomly drop as steel, which is a penalty compared to wood (because of rust damage). But although they can be metal, they won't be silver, cold iron, or adamantine.

For zombies, Rahl's Might is a lot easier to obtain.

[Thak_Skyblade]

Because Rogue gets the acrobat enhancement for +15% staff speed. Monks would be way better with handwraps than staff, and Fighters would be much better with falchion or maul or nearly anything else.

Yes but the fighter gets, what? 30% haste ability.

I am fairly new to DDO so I am not up to date on all of the feats/abilities. I am just trying to get an idea as to why specifically, you would choose rouge over fighter.

School me here please.

[Angelus_dead]

Yes but the fighter gets, what? 30% haste ability.
1. The fighter's abilities can be applied to any weapon, so he'd pick something better than quarterstaff. But a rogue gets enhancements which only work on quarterstaff. If you want to be a THF rogue, this is really the way to do it.

2. Rogues and Fighters have the same Haste boost magnitude. Fighters have a 10% permanent speed increase at level 20, but Rogues can get 15% with staff at level 12.

[Thak_Skyblade]

1. The fighter's abilities can be applied to any weapon, so he'd pick something better than quarterstaff. But a rogue gets enhancements which only work on quarterstaff. If you want to be a THF rogue, this is really the way to do it.

2. Rogues and Fighters have the same Haste boost magnitude. Fighters have a 10% permanent speed increase at level 20, but Rogues can get 15% with staff at level 12.

That's the info I was looking for. Thank you.

[BracchusBridgeburner]

Please quote who said this.
I think this thread is recently becoming infested with drama queen cry babies who require utter agreement and go emo on anyone who doesnt share the exact same ideas.

that's not a trollish and rude comment at all.

:rolleyes:

do you see anyone flipping on AD? Probably because he's not acting like a little kid who needs to be sent off to a corner. That's why you had a couple of us comment at your poor atttitude, NOT your ideas. If you can't contribute to this discussion in a mature intelligent fashion, then at the very least don't disrupt it with trolls and flames.

[The_Phenx]

Newsflash: Comparing the effectiveness to other kinds of Rogue builds IS discussing something quarterstaff+acrobat related. In fact, it is just about the most important such topic you could discuss about a build; why might a person want to choose it over the alternatives? What do you gain and lose by selecting this option?

It is amusing to see the definition that the word "fun" is having here. Apparently it is being used in the sense of an antonym to "serious", with implications of "potentially ineffective". Quite a lot of people won't expect "fun" to mean that.

Saying things like that is not "knocking it off". If you'd rather people not talk about whether the DPS is good or bad, then you could stop talking about whether the DPS is good or bad.

To claim it has "good - excellent dps" appears untrue on the surface, and it will naturally draw inquiries into how that could possibly be the case.

That's something every Rogue should be able to do, and is not really worth mentioning as a benefit of a certain build.

If you want to discuss effectiveness of different types rouge builds compared to eachother to educate new people to the game. Go start a thread about it, let me know and I will come by to discuss the virtues of this build, gladly all day. That education is going to get lost and has no meaning on the 20th page of my thread abotu 1 particular acrobat build.

I would like to keep my thread on topic, and your argument is nothing new, go back and read. Everything has been brought to the table before, (page 2 or 3) and discussed already. I did not then and do not want to build a max dps twf rapier rouge. I do not care what a twf rouge does. I wanted to build the strongest acrobat I could who actually uses quarterstaves.

People are attracted to the build because it is fun. I know its a strange thought but some people actually play a game to have fun. They ask a lot of questions, I make time to answer them all, since it is an advanced build that takes a lot of gear and knowledge to make work right, and I do not want to see anyone fall flat on their face. I have also constantly updated and re-arranged the main post to clarify things to this purpose.

So if you would like to discuss other acrobat builds please do so. Differences between different level splits races and classes or weapons are more than welcome.

But stop derailing honest debates about QUARTERSTAFF ACROBATS by throwing in discussions about relative dps.



To claim it has "good - excellent dps" appears untrue on the surface, and it will naturally draw inquiries into how that could possibly be the case.


It is my toon I know what it is capable of. There is nothing "potentially ineffective" or untrue about it. In fact I list the dps numbers right there on the main post under big red letters, so people can make up their own minds. I also noted for a page or two's worth of discussions that at higher levels to be effective you need to acquire a radiance and a mineral II stick.

ONCE AGAIN --- I HAVE NO PROBLEM DISCUSSING ANYTHING ABOUT ALL THE VARIOUS ACROBAT BUILDS. BUT PLEASE KEEP IT ON TOPIC. I do not want my thread to be turned into an endless debate on which build currently does the most dps for if the wind is blowing from behind on a late sunday afternoon.

[The_Phenx]

With New Invasion and Epic Wizard-king, Clay Golems take on a heightened importance and the Cresents won't work. You'll need metalline, or one of those named (and weak) adamantine staves. That is something to complain to the devs about: They made some quarterstaves randomly drop as steel, which is a penalty compared to wood (because of rust damage). But although they can be metal, they won't be silver, cold iron, or adamantine.

For zombies, Rahl's Might is a lot easier to obtain.

Please refer to this thread... Eladrin is aware of the issue and has stated they are going to be addressing it...Soon lol

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=178681

[The_Phenx]

do you see anyone flipping on AD?

I just did but I hope he takes it all in stride... I'm rather fond of this thread so I would not like to see it derailed... and stay on the purpose of advancing the acrobat line to its pinacles...

[BracchusBridgeburner]

This message is hidden because Dartwick is on your ignore list.


perfect.

[The_Phenx]

Yay no more drama...

[The_Phenx]

That's the info I was looking for. Thank you.

And a well designed rouge can get +60 pts of damage per hit from sneak attacks.

[BracchusBridgeburner]

Yay no more drama...

I sure hope that wasn't a dig at me, especially considering I defended your build here and elsewhere, as well as making a (failed) attempt to ask an obvious forum troll who was trashing your build in an immature manner to curb his manners and grow up.

[The_Phenx]

No that was not a dig at you... :)

Just a general statement that things are back on track.

Appreciate the support btw...

Its kinda funny how much flak you catch from min/max ers over a non standard build...

[daniel7]

Yeah as far as weapons are concerned staves have been getting the shaft. At least the new staves have something new to them, they are bludgeon, pierce, and slash damage. Now if only they would start making good docents...

[The_Phenx]

Ya the SOS lottery is sadly about as good as it gets...although the Docent of Defiance...

[TiberiusofTyr]

Yeah as far as weapons are concerned staves have been getting the shaft.

/rimshot

[Dartwick]

No that was not a dig at you... :)

Just a general statement that things are back on track.

Appreciate the support btw...

Its kinda funny how much flak you catch from min/max ers over a non standard build...

You are implying that I gave you "flack"?

[BracchusBridgeburner]

I'm willing to bet it was something offensive and immature again but I'm not willing to change this to find out:



This message is hidden because Dartwick is on your ignore list.


In case you missed it the first time. Anyway regardless of whatever trolling or flaming you're doing this time, please as I stated before, try to show some respect for Phenx by not trolling his thread and keep your posts constructive and on topic. You've been told by two different people now and Phenx just finished expressing his appreciation for keeping things back on track, which you are now derailing again.

I'm quite content to simply keep you on ignore as you waste your time insulting people who can't even see it, however I am still reporting all your posts for moderation in the hopes that the mods clean your immature remarks from this thread, and will happily accept them removing my responses to them as well since they would no longer be needed. They may choose to do nothing, or, give you a warning. either way, I am quite familiar with how forum trolls operate and I'm quite sure you will eventually provide them with enough infractions for an eventual ban because you are unable to control yourself.

[BracchusBridgeburner]

No that was not a dig at you... :)

Just a general statement that things are back on track.

Appreciate the support btw...

Its kinda funny how much flak you catch from min/max ers over a non standard build...
cool, thanks and you;re welcome! If only a certain other party would man-up and follow suit but that's out of my control (somewhat. I filed reports so the offending remarks will hopefully be removed this week). Anyway, as to your last, I will comment to others that this is a very enjoyable build to play, and the only way you would be seen as not being a great addition to a party would be by very extreme min/maxxers. While I understand AD's viewpoint that this build is not top-tier DPS, I also must add that I very seldom see that kind of adherence to min/maxxing in DDO. Unlike some other MMO's, the presence of parties that are that concerned with min/maxxing has been virtually non-existent in this game simply because the raids in DDO don't require it, and the playerbase in general doesn't seem to care that much about it either. Anyway, fun build, still effective without being 'best possible'. Sadly I had to shelf mine temporarily because I simply don't have the funds to meet certain twink stages in his AC yet (You did warn people of that caveat though so I was expecting it.), but I fully intend to return to it once I do.

[krud]

It was designed to make quarterstaves a viable weapon because I felt their animation was the neatest weapon attack chain in the game.
So effin true. Someone passed Rahl's Might to my ftr/rog acrobat, so I just had to try it out. The animation almost made me want to respec for staves right then and there. Very cool.

[Arkat]

Stop talking about me and Ill stop defending myself.

Once there were these two guys named Bill and Chuck who were enemies from childhood. When one guy said bad things about the other, the other responded to defend himself.

One day, Bill lost his sight and hearing to some disease but continued to say stuff about Chuck.

Chuck, doing what he always did, yelled back at Bill defending himself.

The question is, why was Bill even trying to communicate with Chuck? Remember, Chuck can't hear him or see him!

Wouldn't it be better if Chuck just ignored Bill?

[Maximan]

First off, I'd like to thank The_Phenx for making this thread and everyone else who has contributed their experience with this FUN build. I started reading 3 days ago and just finished all 30 pages. I feel like I was with you on your journey from level 1.

Ok, I started a rogue/monk QS user a couple of weeks ago (before I knew about this thread). My starting stats are similar to yours and I also decided to go for the cleave/great cleave feats. However, I made made my character a Human (at the urging of a friend). My question is, has anyone else made this build using a human or am I better off rerolling while I can? I'm currently level 7 (Rogue 6/Monk 1) but I would start at lv 4 if I rerolled, so not a huge loss there.

I think the reasons for going Human were the extra feat and skill points but mostly for the human enhancement that would allow me to bump up Strength, as Dex and Wisdom are covered by the rogue and monk levels.

I've never rolled with a Warforge before and I can't stand the look of Halflings when they run. But, oh well.

Any imput would be appreciated

[t0r012]

Back on track. after not being able to play with thelanis down the other night I got to run Ms. Skinnystick last night with a good group.

couple of items I noted .
1. Damage output even with just a +2 pure good stick is nice, the SA damage really is great. which leads me to my next point

2. Squishy. definitely need to get a better fort item the crits are starting to cause me problems. Dmarks and running with a good healer last night coupled with a better grip of when to run for cover kept me alive all but one time last night (A huge improvement)
Just there aren't many mod fort items in the AH and what is there is way expensive for me. I can afford it but with next to no reserve for picking up a deal on a good stick.

3. Monk elemental strikes, nice. I hadn't been using them since I have almost no ki. I found the trick is just use it when you get it, there is no storage. I haven't even put the finishing move in my hotbar yet as I don't think I will ever have enough ki to use it. but the extra 1d6(wind) or 4 damage(earth) every 5 or 10 seconds when your in a swarm is nice.

4. Aggro I found that even after letting the 2 rangers and the fighter go in first I still started pulling aggro after dropping my 2nd or 3rd mob. I'm thinking this is just due to my inexperience coupled with my no so complete understanding of how the whole aggro/diplo/intim works yet. I don't want to hijack but if I could get a quick primer I'd be grateful.

[t0r012]

First off, I'd like to thank The_Phenx for making this thread and everyone else who has contributed their experience with this FUN build. I started reading 3 days ago and just finished all 30 pages. I feel like I was with you on your journey from level 1.

Ok, I started a rogue/monk QS user a couple of weeks ago (before I knew about this thread). My starting stats are similar to yours and I also decided to go for the cleave/great cleave feats. However, I made made my character a Human (at the urging of a friend). My question is, has anyone else made this build using a human or am I better off rerolling while I can? I'm currently level 7 (Rogue 6/Monk 1) but I would start at lv 4 if I rerolled, so not a huge loss there.

I think the reasons for going Human were the extra feat and skill points but mostly for the human enhancement that would allow me to bump up Strength, as Dex and Wisdom are covered by the rogue and monk levels.

I've never rolled with a Warforge before and I can't stand the look of Halflings when they run. But, oh well.

Any imput would be appreciated

yeah I tried my first time with a human and rerolled after a bit. The sneak attack enhancements really help as do the healing marks. I got usd to the halfling run I just stopped noticing after my 6th or 7th waterworks run.

[Angelus_dead]

I sure hope that wasn't a dig at me, especially considering I defended your build here and elsewhere, as well as making a (failed) attempt to ask an obvious forum troll who was trashing your build in an immature manner to curb his manners and grow up.
You are the one who is obviously trolling with immature manners.

Here's one post:

People are giving noobs unrealistic expectations about staff toons.
I have one. Its a lot of fun. Im trying to optimize my damage and all that.
As far as I can tell this is not close to being the max damage option.
Nothing in there is factually incorrect, abusive, or even directed towards any specific person.

Here's your reply to it:

I see that mentality being dragged here from another certain MMO along with a lot of other negative baggage though.

edit: I just noticed this is the 2nd (that I've found) thread where you are calling down this particular build. Seems like you have some kind of biased dislike for non-cookie builds, but as I said just a few lines up, I think I have a pretty good idea what MMO you're dragging that baggage from. My advice is that you keep it to yourself if you're unwilling to contribute in a constructive manner.
That is blatant harassment on your part. Those insults were unwarranted.

[Angelus_dead]

People are attracted to the build because it is fun.
Paying attention to the responses to this thread reveals that to be incorrect. People are getting the impression that quarterstaff is a moderately high DPS option for rogues. For example, look up at this post from a few days ago:

Assuming the OP's numbers are correct, at 147 swings per minute. Thats higher then someone with just GTWF, you would need Tempest as well, and thats only 151 swings per minute
Clearly, misinformation is being spread somewhere.


But stop derailing honest debates about QUARTERSTAFF ACROBATS by throwing in discussions about relative dps.
Yeah, comparisons are unhelpful. What other characters might be doing doesn't matter, and describing performance compared to other party members would be a waste of time that shouldn't be allowed in the thread:

I have run with a few Iron monks... a few tempst builds and a few barbarians... He out performs them or = in the dps department at this stage, he does a lot of per hit damage comparatively, and the speed makes a big difference.


But when your 12th level and outkill a 12/2 tempest ranger DW kopeshs its still a good feeling.



It is my toon I know what it is capable of. There is nothing "potentially ineffective" or untrue about it.
Fact 1: Acrobat 2 = +15% attack rate
Fact 2: GTWF = +100% attack rate

Do you dispute either of those facts? If not, then doesn't the 60-80% less rate of Sneak Attacks create a potential for being much less effective in many kinds of combats?


I also noted for a page or two's worth of discussions that at higher levels to be effective you need to acquire a radiance and a mineral II stick.
But that is an aspect that appears potentially much less effective. Radiance triggers on critical hits, and a staff gets about 11 crits per minute, compared to 36 from GTWF shortswords, or 54 from rapiers. Just from the raw numbers that looks like a major drawback.


BUT PLEASE KEEP IT ON TOPIC. I do not want my thread to be turned into an endless debate on which build currently does the most dps for if the wind is blowing from behind on a late sunday afternoon.
Strawman. The following two statements are very different:
1. "That Ferrari might not corner as tightly as a Dodge Viper"
2. "That Corolla might have trouble keeping up with freeway traffic"

It's one thing to look at max DPS, which is a difficult thing both to achieve and to analyze, and another to compare against average normal DPS.

[t0r012]

Paying attention to the responses to this thread reveals that to be incorrect. People are getting the impression that quarterstaff is a moderately high DPS option for rogues. For example, look up at this post from a few days ago:

Clearly, misinformation is being spread somewhere.

Yeah, comparisons are unhelpful. What other characters might be doing doesn't matter, and describing performance compared to other party members would be a waste of time that shouldn't be allowed in the thread:

Fact 1: Acrobat 2 = +15% attack rate
Fact 2: GTWF = +100% attack rate

Do you dispute either of those facts? If not, then doesn't the 60-80% less rate of Sneak Attacks create a potential for being much less effective in many kinds of combats?


But that is an aspect that appears potentially much less effective. Radiance triggers on critical hits, and a staff gets about 11 crits per minute, compared to 36 from GTWF shortswords, or 54 from rapiers. Just from the raw numbers that looks like a major drawback.


Strawman. The following two statements are very different:
1. "That Ferrari might not corner as tightly as a Dodge Viper"
2. "That Corolla might have trouble keeping up with freeway traffic"

It's one thing to look at max DPS, which is a difficult thing both to achieve and to analyze, and another to compare against average normal DPS.

great, lovely, wonderful. Now just go and start your own thropic about comparing the damage of a THF acrobat staff build vs. a TWF rapier build and stop hijacking this specific build thread.

[Arkat]

great, lovely, wonderful. Now just go and start your own thropic about comparing the damage of a THF acrobat staff build vs. a TWF rapier build and stop hijacking this specific build thread.

You may as well tell a Leopard to change his spots. :(

[Raegoul]

paying Attention To The Responses To This Thread Reveals That To Be Incorrect. People Are Getting The Impression That Quarterstaff Is A Moderately High Dps Option For Rogues.

nope This Build Is Fun And Your Arguement Has Been Sufficiently Countered. Btw Repeating Yourself Over And Over Again Has Not Changed Anyone Elses Opinion.

Clearly, Misinformation Is Being Spread Somewhere.

yes By You


Yeah, Comparisons Are Unhelpful. What Other Characters Might Be Doing Doesn't Matter, And Describing Performance Compared To Other Party Members Would Be A Waste Of Time That Shouldn't Be Allowed In The Thread.

oo Sarcasm With No Substance

Fact 1: Acrobat 2 = +15% Attack Rate
Fact 2: Gtwf = +100% Attack Rate

true Fact = Angelus_dead Is Highlighting Incomparable Facts To Make A General Point That Means Very Little Because His Assumptions Are Wrong.

Do You Dispute Either Of Those Facts? If Not, Then Doesn't The 60-80% Less Rate Of Sneak Attacks Create A Potential For Being Much Less Effective In Many Kinds Of Combats?

i Vote For 60-80% Of Numbers To Be Manufactured To Prove Your Point.

But That Is An Aspect That Appears Potentially Much Less Effective. Radiance Triggers On Critical Hits, And A Staff Gets About 11 Crits Per Minute, Compared To 36 From Gtwf Shortswords, Or 54 From Rapiers. Just From The Raw Numbers That Looks Like A Major Drawback.

oo More Raw Factual Numbers, Hiding Behind Numbers Still Doesnt Change The True Fact See Above.

Strawman. The Following Two Statements Are Very Different:
1. "that Ferrari Might Not Corner As Tightly As A Dodge Viper"
2. "that Corolla Might Have Trouble Keeping Up With Freeway Traffic"

meaningless Analogies.. Try Again

It's One Thing To Look At Max Dps, Which Is A Difficult Thing Both To Achieve And To Analyze, And Another To Compare Against Average Normal Dps.

this Point Is Not In Dispute But What Is In Dispute Is Your Negativity For No Particular Reason.

No!

[The_Phenx]

First off, I'd like to thank The_Phenx for making this thread and everyone else who has contributed their experience with this FUN build. I started reading 3 days ago and just finished all 30 pages. I feel like I was with you on your journey from level 1.

Ok, I started a rogue/monk QS user a couple of weeks ago (before I knew about this thread). My starting stats are similar to yours and I also decided to go for the cleave/great cleave feats. However, I made made my character a Human (at the urging of a friend). My question is, has anyone else made this build using a human or am I better off rerolling while I can? I'm currently level 7 (Rogue 6/Monk 1) but I would start at lv 4 if I rerolled, so not a huge loss there.

I think the reasons for going Human were the extra feat and skill points but mostly for the human enhancement that would allow me to bump up Strength, as Dex and Wisdom are covered by the rogue and monk levels.

I've never rolled with a Warforge before and I can't stand the look of Halflings when they run. But, oh well.

Any imput would be appreciated

Your welcome.

That was the intention.. it was supposed ot be kind of a blog...since these builds weren't really developed yet.. I wanted to make to let everyone know what works when and what didnt.

Humans have some advantages like the xtra feat, but you loose so much. Access to halfling guile (which I only took 2 tiers in the end) loss of dragonmarks... Its all a personal play style but the two strongest races for this are warforged and halfling.

But I dont know that your going to be "gimped" just not optimal... so the choice is really yours.

[The_Phenx]

Anyway, fun build, still effective without being 'best possible'. Sadly I had to shelf mine temporarily because I simply don't have the funds to meet certain twink stages in his AC yet (You did warn people of that caveat though so I was expecting it.), but I fully intend to return to it once I do.

It is a touch gear dependant... I sitll havent gotten everytihng I want/need but I have had some REALLY bad luck in Titan...Min/max isnt really as necessary in DDO... gear makes the most difference, and knowledge of the game and its mechanics.

Hell I think I am the only (or close to it) 20th fighter dragonmarked halfling kensai III on the server.

[The_Phenx]

Back on track. after not being able to play with thelanis down the other night I got to run Ms. Skinnystick last night with a good group.

couple of items I noted .
1. Damage output even with just a +2 pure good stick is nice, the SA damage really is great. which leads me to my next point

2. Squishy. definitely need to get a better fort item the crits are starting to cause me problems. Dmarks and running with a good healer last night coupled with a better grip of when to run for cover kept me alive all but one time last night (A huge improvement)
Just there aren't many mod fort items in the AH and what is there is way expensive for me. I can afford it but with next to no reserve for picking up a deal on a good stick.

3. Monk elemental strikes, nice. I hadn't been using them since I have almost no ki. I found the trick is just use it when you get it, there is no storage. I haven't even put the finishing move in my hotbar yet as I don't think I will ever have enough ki to use it. but the extra 1d6(wind) or 4 damage(earth) every 5 or 10 seconds when your in a swarm is nice.

4. Aggro I found that even after letting the 2 rangers and the fighter go in first I still started pulling aggro after dropping my 2nd or 3rd mob. I'm thinking this is just due to my inexperience coupled with my no so complete understanding of how the whole aggro/diplo/intim works yet. I don't want to hijack but if I could get a quick primer I'd be grateful.

2. Squishy YES they very well can be...I realize the difference is when I rolled preying I gathered up the necessary gear from my main before he even was created... mod/heavy for is a MUST... your ac will be high enough to stop all but most hits and crits, but when they do hit they hurt.

DO NOT FORGET YOUR DIPLO BUTTON. Dimplomacy is there for a reason.. if you get in trouble.. click it.. the mobs focus elsewhere adn you get your S/A damage back.

3. If you want take a couple points from jump or haggle and toss them into concetration. At 20th level Preying retains 8 ki. But in a good scuffle I never run out. I have plenty to toss around for elemental hits and finishers.

4. Aggro works thusly. The mob aggros on whoever it sees first. Then it focuses on who ever is dealing it the most damage. You will pull aggro a lot, with S/A damage you will be dealing more per hit damage than most other classes in the game, especially at low levels. Once again hit the diplo button to shed it, and make sure you have on a diplo item for 100% success rate. This tactic only works if there are other party combatants nearby for the monster to focus on, so the best way to work as a rouge (until you get a radiance item) is to go attack a monster than anyone else is attacking. (if you need more info than that let me know I will see what I can do)

[LogannX]

I started a human version of the build and its a blast. It was either elf or human and I got a server full of elves so...
I also see lots of people trying the build out in game. Ive even had a couple grps where the other thief acrobat and I were competeing for kills and traps in a good natured way.Of course min/max Grog the twf tempest psycho was sprint boosting and haste clickie to every grp of mobs to make sure he stayed up on the kill count and just got aggravted when the thief acrobats finished one ahead and one behind. Lots of people comment on how they didnt think a q-staff character could keep up. It gets people thinking outside the box a bit.
I dont top the kill count all the time but we still beat the dungeon, and I get to flip out with a quarterstaff and not fall down.
Thanks for the insight to a FUN build that is very practical.

[The_Phenx]

But that is an aspect that appears potentially much less effective. Radiance triggers on critical hits, and a staff gets about 11 crits per minute, compared to 36 from GTWF shortswords, or 54 from rapiers. Just from the raw numbers that looks like a major drawback.


AD I respect your opinion, you are one of the only folks in here that actually deals in strait facts, and most of the time you are spot on.

SO please I beg of you...listen to what I am saying, not what you think I am saying (lol)

I know that this is not the 100% most awesome min/max dps rouge out there, no one is arguing that fact. Its a good/fun choice as an alternative to being cookie cutter.

This build is about being the 100% most awesome QUARTERSTAFF ACROBAT out there, it was about making a staff build viable. I am never and have never agrued that it compares in dps to a twf rouge, although in certain situations due to glancing damage and cleave it will actually out dps the twf'r.

As it stands it is the 2nd fastest thf swing speed in the game. Only 2.5% behind a 12 rouge acrobat II 6 monk (air stance II) 2 fighter build. This may or may not change or balance out with Acrobat III... only time will tell, and I may re-roll accordingly.

Yes you go from 25% to 10% on crits, and you loose a portion of your S/A damage from the loss of offhand attack. Its not as bad as all that tho. DO not forget about the glancing blow damage... the cleave a group for sneak attack damage, the monk ki strikes & finishers, the 1.5x str modifier damage, the 10pts from pa for your pre crit damager making those 10% crits that much stronger, and now we have a staff with x3 multiplier and 1d10... closing the gap that much more.

While not the top tier dps rouge, it certainly is still a viable build, and not a detriment to a party, because if it was my guild leader would badger me until I cried (lol).

Oh and just to drive you nuts... the new one I am wokring on is a 19/1 rouge barbarian Assasin III who uses kukuris :).

[The_Phenx]

Do you dispute either of those facts? If not, then doesn't the 60-80% less rate of Sneak Attacks create a potential for being much less effective in many kinds of combats?



Oh and its not 60-80% if a twf does 8 attacks in a given round time... a base thf does 4.. this is 17.5% greater so its really 4.7 attacks in the same time frame + glancing blows.

SO its only a 32.5% reduction in hits per round vs a twf... with a scaling damage ramp for glancing blows which at a minimum does ~17 pts + effects proc. If your surrounded by 5 mobs you may be dealing 100 pts of damage extra per swing. I know in dq part 1 If I gather all the mephits there are so many red numbers floating I cant see to attack, so your looking at 200+ pts per glance in those situations.

I think the problem most people are going to get into is playing this toon like a barbarian, which is what I do. But I have the funds and gear to support it.

A rouge is not truly a frontline combatant... at mid levels anyway.

[The_Phenx]

I started a human version of the build and its a blast. It was either elf or human and I got a server full of elves so...
I also see lots of people trying the build out in game. Ive even had a couple grps where the other thief acrobat and I were competeing for kills and traps in a good natured way.Of course min/max Grog the twf tempest psycho was sprint boosting and haste clickie to every grp of mobs to make sure he stayed up on the kill count and just got aggravted when the thief acrobats finished one ahead and one behind. Lots of people comment on how they didnt think a q-staff character could keep up. It gets people thinking outside the box a bit.
I dont top the kill count all the time but we still beat the dungeon, and I get to flip out with a quarterstaff and not fall down.
Thanks for the insight to a FUN build that is very practical.

ROFL your welcome... power to the stick!

[Dartwick]

in case it escaped your attention, 2 of us asked him to stop, and the OP even expressed grattitude that I took the first step by placing him on ignore. Futhermore in case it also escaped your attention he is still continuing the argument, long after I placed him on ignore. thirdly in case it escaped your attention someone recently pointed out that he is still arguing with someone who has him on ignore. Fourth, have you nopt noticed how many people are pointing out YOUR poor attitude?

It seems a lot escapes your attention!!

Lastly, as it seems you don't possess a much common sense, and you also seem argumentative by nature, I've decided that you aren't worth listening to either. Now you can join Dartwick in arguing with people who can't even read your post. Somehow I'm 100% positive you will too. lol. I hope you heard that... it was the sound of your argument being blown out of the water.

Squelch... has to be the best thing ever implemented on forums :D

Has it escaped your notice that this is the second time you have posted about me - since claiming to have put me on ignore?

[The_Phenx]

This is the last time I will even acknowledge anything not pertinent.

Stop Mucking Up My Thread... if you wanna complain do it in PM's

[Fecerak]

I made this build too...

Level 5 atm, and it is really fun :D (28 pt. with no tomes)

Only thing is that it would be nice to have cleave in the build, but it is nothing I could get rid of to fit it in...

Soloed WW and STK at level 4 without any special gear (used a few pots that dropped in some barrels and stuff in STK part 2 and 3, but otherwise no consumables)

My dps is actually okay without someone to pick up my aggro, but it is about twice as good when I get SA atm.

I made a little mistake about the SP in the beginning and took 5 ranks of haggle and less tumble and stuff, but at higher levels a lesser/greater reincarnation should fix that.

Only annoying thing was that in the beginning my ki was dropping so fast that I couldn't get to use a single ki strike.

[The_Phenx]

Aye at low levels things die too quickly to build up much ki... wear a concentration item to fix this... and how can you not fit cleave into the build.. there is plenty of room...or do you mean not yet fitting it in...

[The_Phenx]

And AD just to show I'm a good guy.. I added a little disclaimer in the 28 pt build part of the main post... just fer yoo...

[drac317]

Love it... its listed up front :)

But he devs changed it.. now it has the CHANCE to deal 1d3 neg on a crit :(

WHAT? u got to be kiddin me. i finally get one and those ******* nerf it.

[The_Phenx]

WHAT? u got to be kiddin me. i finally get one and those ******* nerf it.

Yep... but it still works seemingly all the time...they didn't exactly nerf it they just made it match the description.

[drac317]

First off, I'd like to thank The_Phenx for making this thread and everyone else who has contributed their experience with this FUN build. I started reading 3 days ago and just finished all 30 pages. I feel like I was with you on your journey from level 1.

Ok, I started a rogue/monk QS user a couple of weeks ago (before I knew about this thread). My starting stats are similar to yours and I also decided to go for the cleave/great cleave feats. However, I made made my character a Human (at the urging of a friend). My question is, has anyone else made this build using a human or am I better off rerolling while I can? I'm currently level 7 (Rogue 6/Monk 1) but I would start at lv 4 if I rerolled, so not a huge loss there.

I think the reasons for going Human were the extra feat and skill points but mostly for the human enhancement that would allow me to bump up Strength, as Dex and Wisdom are covered by the rogue and monk levels.

I've never rolled with a Warforge before and I can't stand the look of Halflings when they run. But, oh well.

Any imput would be appreciated

yep, im human but went neut good,so i dont have monk lvls

pretty close on stat placement to Phenx's build

human thoughness III and healing amp III are nice for the build as well

[drac317]

You may as well tell a Leopard to change his spots. :(

or a troll to go back to there bridge :)

[eddie_storm]

Ok to be fair I am only level 4, level 2 rogue / level 2 monk but while I see the benifits of this build I probably wont be workin much on it. The only reason is when it comes down to it, it is still a level 18 rogue. Not saying anything bad about rogues but just not my style of play. I tend to lean a lot more to the monk style. Sometime I will come back to it

[Fecerak]

The reason for no cleave was that I looked at the feat list a little bit longer down, which included both THF and dragonmarks, but not cleave, as I thought they were the same.

The problem is, I want all of Cleave, Great Cleave, Dragonmarks, and the THF line, which is impossible.

Right now I am level 6, and my feats are THF, least and lesser dragonmark, power attack, and toughness.

At level 9 I am going to take greater dragonmark, at 12 I am unsure (either imp crit, imp THF or cleave), and the same at 15 and 18.

I think I will swap my dragonmarks at higher levels when I get my UMD to the point of no-fail heal scrolls (and get the money to support those scrolls).

But then the question is: what is more useful at levels 6-18ish, cleave line or THF line?

[t0r012]

The reason for no cleave was that I looked at the feat list a little bit longer down, which included both THF and dragonmarks, but not cleave, as I thought they were the same.

The problem is, I want all of Cleave, Great Cleave, Dragonmarks, and the THF line, which is impossible.

Right now I am level 6, and my feats are THF, least and lesser dragonmark, power attack, and toughness.

At level 9 I am going to take greater dragonmark, at 12 I am unsure (either imp crit, imp THF or cleave), and the same at 15 and 18.

I think I will swap my dragonmarks at higher levels when I get my UMD to the point of no-fail heal scrolls (and get the money to support those scrolls).

But then the question is: what is more useful at levels 6-18ish, cleave line or THF line?


I have the same issue. I'm sticking with 2HF and Dmarks till I can get my UMD up enough to get decent success with heal clickies then I'm going to drop Dmarks for cleave. I have been debating dropping marks already. Since I find myself only ever taking this character out in a group where the build really shines. I will say marks have helped keep me alive enough for the healer to finally get around to me when they are busy.
For now it is marks (and THF don't even debate dropping THF) over cleave. later I'm going to revisit. For you if dmg output is more important then durability then go cleave.

[Dartwick]

Are you sure cleave is a high damage choice?
Ive never actually taken it but with the timer I dont see how it can be.

[Angelus_dead]

Are you sure cleave is a high damage choice?
Cleave only improves damage in a very rare circumstance, and even then the DPS gain is probably unhelpful. Cleave will hit multiple monsters at once, but it takes about as long as 2-3 regular attacks (or more if your swing rate is very high).

So obviously, Cleave is only a DPS win if you have 3+ enemies in range. That rarely happens, and even if you do hit 4 monsters at once, it might have been better to just hit the same mob 3 times and kill it dead.

Cleave is even less helpful if your regular attacks already have glancing blow opportunities, which is what the THF feats provide.

[hydra_ex]

Cleave only improves damage in a very rare circumstance, and even then the DPS gain is probably unhelpful. Cleave will hit multiple monsters at once, but it takes about as long as 2-3 regular attacks (or more if your swing rate is very high).

So obviously, Cleave is only a DPS win if you have 3+ enemies in range. That rarely happens, and even if you do hit 4 monsters at once, it might have been better to just hit the same mob 3 times and kill it dead.

Cleave is even less helpful if your regular attacks already have glancing blow opportunities, which is what the THF feats provide.

But... but... Turbine wouldn't release a feat which had no use. That's just misleading and bad development.

[The_Phenx]

But then the question is: what is more useful at levels 6-18ish, cleave line or THF line?

WHich is more useful?


Prolly THF.. cleave is nice when your stuck in a group... but its still a clicky attack and GTHF is always on...

[The_Phenx]

I have the same issue. I'm sticking with 2HF and Dmarks till I can get my UMD up enough to get decent success with heal clickies then I'm going to drop Dmarks for cleave. I have been debating dropping marks already. Since I find myself only ever taking this character out in a group where the build really shines. I will say marks have helped keep me alive enough for the healer to finally get around to me when they are busy.
For now it is marks (and THF don't even debate dropping THF) over cleave. later I'm going to revisit. For you if dmg output is more important then durability then go cleave.

WHich is more or les exactly what I did. I felt that cleave was enugh and didnt need great cleave.. I wanted the passive always on damage of GTHF..

Once your umd is up there dont just buy heal scrolls...get mass cure mod scrolls, res scrolls, restore scrolls...too.. when you see the party in a pinch your backup healer...

ANd pick up a lvl 10 shield wand or two... you will love the extra ac

[The_Phenx]

Cleave only improves damage in a very rare circumstance, and even then the DPS gain is probably unhelpful. Cleave will hit multiple monsters at once, but it takes about as long as 2-3 regular attacks (or more if your swing rate is very high).

So obviously, Cleave is only a DPS win if you have 3+ enemies in range. That rarely happens, and even if you do hit 4 monsters at once, it might have been better to just hit the same mob 3 times and kill it dead.

Cleave is even less helpful if your regular attacks already have glancing blow opportunities, which is what the THF feats provide.

Agreed. 99% of the time cleave is useful only for the initial charging in attack. Not just for smacking all the mobs, but for the fact that it gives you your highest attack swing.. so it is +10 extra to hit... which means on a moving shot you will rarely miss.

SO a good attack... run at group of monsters line them all up in your sights.. charge in.. hit cleave... hit diplo... then proceed to beat the snot out of whatever monster is most dangerous... always casters first.

The nice part is... (dont do this till you have a decent enough ac not to get killed) when you get in quick enough monster AI doesnt have time to register you and you get off a sneak attack even if your first in.. then the diplo sends the mobs elsewhere and you can work like a rouge...

[The_Phenx]

But... but... Turbine wouldn't release a feat which had no use. That's just misleading and bad development.

LOL :D I remember back when the popular thing was sword of shadows and the cleaves...

[eddie_storm]

I just noticed you listed several tomes +2, unless you have a version of tomes I have not seen they are not usable untill level 7 and this skills chosen seem to be based off having that extra int.

[The_Phenx]

I just noticed you listed several tomes +2, unless you have a version of tomes I have not seen they are not usable untill level 7 and this skills chosen seem to be based off having that extra int.

When Preying was created +1 & +2 tomes could be used at lvl 1... the devs realized this wa a tad overpowered and changed it.

There are some obvious places to take up the slack.. haggle.. jump...balance...hide...move silently...tumble. For example 1 each could be skipped for levels 1-7. I would however avoid lowering any core rouge skills as listed below.

Diplomacy
Spot
Search
Open Lock
Disable
Umd


Updated the main post to reflect this.

[drac317]

so has anyone found Rhal's Might useful for anything other than 120+ crits

[rest]

so has anyone found Rhal's Might useful for anything other than 120+ crits

Improved destruction is nice. And my little halfling looks like a badass carrying a q-staff that is taller than she is :D

[drac317]

Improved destruction is nice. And my little halfling looks like a badass carrying a q-staff that is taller than she is :D

true, i just wish we could find out how to unlock the surpressed power

[Individual]

so has anyone found Rhal's Might useful for anything other than 120+ crits

I have a 19Rogue/1Monk warforged staff user, and when I solo on him I almost always stick to the Decpetion version of Rhal's Might(or my +4 Holy of Weighted 5%, depending on the target's Ac) unless the target has DR in which case I use my Mineral2 or Radiance2.

Deception + Improved Destruction means its very easy to continue to get sneak attacks and keep power attack on when soloing. Once the target's Strength is reduced to 0 the x3 criticals finish whats left.

[The_Phenx]

I have a 19Rogue/1Monk warforged staff user, and when I solo on him I almost always stick to the Decpetion version of Rhal's Might(or my +4 Holy of Weighted 5%, depending on the target's Ac) unless the target has DR in which case I use my Mineral2 or Radiance2.

Deception + Improved Destruction means its very easy to continue to get sneak attacks and keep power attack on when soloing. Once the target's Strength is reduced to 0 the x3 criticals finish whats left.

Thats the reason radiance is so strong... till we know what the upgrades are Rahls Might will just be a very nice improved destruction staff for me.

[Strakeln]

Cleave only improves damage in a very rare circumstance, and even then the DPS gain is probably unhelpful. Cleave will hit multiple monsters at once, but it takes about as long as 2-3 regular attacks (or more if your swing rate is very high).

So obviously, Cleave is only a DPS win if you have 3+ enemies in range. That rarely happens, and even if you do hit 4 monsters at once, it might have been better to just hit the same mob 3 times and kill it dead.

Cleave is even less helpful if your regular attacks already have glancing blow opportunities, which is what the THF feats provide.
It is important to point out that the amount of time it takes for a cleave animation varies based on weapons, and also how you use it in concert with other cleave-like attacks. For example, S&B cleave followed by great cleave with 4 mobs around you is quite fast and will result in 8 attacks in much less time than it would take for normal swinging. THF and TWF cleaves are very slow, so trying the same thing with a big stick may result in a DPS loss.

If there are doubts to my claim, get a character with cleave and great cleave and test it by doing one followed by the other, in each fighting mode. You'll notice that there is a wind-up for THF and TWF that doesn't exist in S&B cleave, that appears to be where the slowdown originates.

The effectiveness of cleave also depends on how you use it. Since special effects (vorp/banish/extra damage/whatever) apply to all hit targets in a cleave, you can do some interesting things that will allow you to kill more things, faster. One example is the bat hallway in DQ1 and a nice banisher. Gather 'em all up, shield block, and hit all your cleave attacks.

[meteoric1]

Have you finalised what enchantments you will be getting?

I have just unlocked my 32pt build and I'm extremely interested to try this build out! XD

[The_Phenx]

It is important to point out that the amount of time it takes for a cleave animation varies based on weapons, and also how you use it in concert with other cleave-like attacks. For example, S&B cleave followed by great cleave with 4 mobs around you is quite fast and will result in 8 attacks in much less time than it would take for normal swinging. THF and TWF cleaves are very slow, so trying the same thing with a big stick may result in a DPS loss.

If there are doubts to my claim, get a character with cleave and great cleave and test it by doing one followed by the other, in each fighting mode. You'll notice that there is a wind-up for THF and TWF that doesn't exist in S&B cleave, that appears to be where the slowdown originates.

The effectiveness of cleave also depends on how you use it. Since special effects (vorp/banish/extra damage/whatever) apply to all hit targets in a cleave, you can do some interesting things that will allow you to kill more things, faster. One example is the bat hallway in DQ1 and a nice banisher. Gather 'em all up, shield block, and hit all your cleave attacks.


You are 100% correct... staff cleave is slow...and is a dps loss vs anything less than 4 mobs surrounding you...tis why I just use it for large groups and approach shots.

But where it really shines is in killing stupid bats.

I will however be the firs tot switch it out if a better feat comes along.

[The_Phenx]

Have you finalised what enchantments you will be getting?

I have just unlocked my 32pt build and I'm extremely interested to try this build out! XD

Yep I'm pretty settled. The build in the main post is 99.9% accurate. I think I dumped wrack construct for extra action boost and a tier for halfling saves. But tha'ts just playing around with a capped toon :). And certainly not build making or breaking.

The only thing that will be different for you is that +2 int tomes wont work till lvl 7 now so you will be 7 skill points behind sadly, noted that on page one as well.. down towards the bottom.

Good Luck...feel free to post up any questions or cool stuff you come across.

[JinxedWarrior]

Adjusted the build to take out 2hf and insert kopesh + twf. pretty much left everything alone, ignored balance completely (since acrobat II makes him immune to slippery surface and knockdown effects).

Feats:
TWF
Kopesh
Toughness
Combat Expertise (maybe ditch for umd?)
ITWF
Crit: Slashing
Improve Evasion
Crippling Strike
Power Attack
GTWF
Skill Mastery (going overboard here?)

Skills:
MAXED diplo, disable, open, search, spot, sneak, hide, umd
rest into jump, tumble, haggle


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Sneaky Jinx see no Traps
Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Male
(2 Monk \ 18 Rogue)
Hit Points: 268
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 21
Will: 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 15 23
Dexterity 15 23
Constitution 13 16
Intelligence 14 16
Wisdom 11 14
Charisma 8 8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 2 13
Bluff -1 2
Concentration 1 4
Diplomacy 3 23
Disable Device 6 27
Haggle 1 20
Heal 0 3
Hide 6 32
Intimidate -1 0
Jump 6 27
Listen 0 5
Move Silently 6 32
Open Lock 6 30
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 4
Search 6 27
Spot 4 26
Swim 2 7
Tumble 4 31
Use Magic Device 3 23

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 3 (Monk)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 5 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+3)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 7 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+3)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Diplomacy (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 11 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 13 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+3)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 17 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+3)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+3)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery


Level 19 (Rogue)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+3)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+3)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Halfling Guile II
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Fortitude) I
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) I
Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Will) II
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Void Strike
Enhancement: Disciple of Breezes
Enhancement: Disciple of Pebbles
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking III
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I
Enhancement: Rogue Balance II
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble I
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I

[The_Phenx]

Acro II will give you knockdown immunity, and monk will give you a bit of extra ac... but you loose the centering effects because you will be using kopesh's. No air stance etc...

If your looking for max dps twf kopesh rouge with a decent ac your much better off with a 19/1 rouge monk kinda split doing a twf assassin III.

Im actually building something like that now... 19/1 rouge barbarian Assassin III who DW burst/blast kukuris... (ignoring ac and going stealth + subtle backstabbing) The barb gives a faster run rate + speed boost for high speed stealthing/assassinating... and a bit of rage for the hell of it. And access to a tier of barb toughness...

[The_Phenx]

Yaye! Finally picked up a Rahls Might

Last night on the way to the hound, You sneak attack Elder Beholder for 197 pts of slashing damage (yes it lists slash in the cobat log) love my spear ...woot! :D

[drac317]

Yaye! Finally picked up a Rahls Might

Last night on the way to the hound, You sneak attack Elder Beholder for 197 pts of slashing damage (yes it lists slash in the cobat log) love my spear ...woot! :D

grats!! which version you pull.

[drac317]

grats!! which version you pull.

i ask only because i have bleed,which is nice vs stuff thats alive.
was just wondering how the others stack up.

[The_Phenx]

Sadly I got the true law version which is blech... Ideally I want the force...be interesting what the upgrades for them are... as of yet they are only minorly useful... but still fun vs the right opponent, in the right situation... no where near as powerful as radiance.

[drac317]

i feel the same way,wouldnt mind the force for everything else though.

at least we'll get to upgrade em in a couple of weeks

[The_Phenx]

So...

New max damage hit... for all the naysayers.....bite me :).

Combat: You sneak attack hell hound for 308 pts of damage (+7 bleed +4 elec)

This was done with Rahls might bleed version on a earth strike finisher.

Cant wait to see what the upgrades for these are gonna be.

Its not quite as strong a staff as radiance, but its **** close... the higher base damage and x3 crits are getting harder to ignore.

I find myself using the hell out of it in good groups (guild runs) when I am guaranteed not to have aggro... of course vs mobs with no native dr... It still sucks vs devils and orthos and bosses....

[drac317]

i really gotta tr to add a lvl of monk only hit 151 last nite in sos

[The_Phenx]

The monk air stance strikes and finishers can make an enormous difference... situationally ...

Normally they are just an extra d6 per hit... which is still pretty pimp. Considering one does an extra 4pts per hit and one 1d6 force vs portals... that you can spam almost non stop.

[The_Phenx]

So everyone please post your upgrades to the Rahls mights here .... would love to see where they lead.

[rest]

I came in here hoping you had already upgraded yours :o


I haven't really been playing Thwaak too much. I've been leveling a tempest kama user that is oodles of fun, and I was hoping to upgrade a decent Dream Edge before i upgraded the Rahl's Might. If I don't end up pulling a Dream Edge worth upgrading, I'll upgrade my bleed version of the staff and report back.

[The_Phenx]

I upgraded my bleed version last night..

You beat me to posting it.

Here you go everyone... acrobats get puncturing.

We really need to explore what the impact goes to.. becuase if its 5% weighted... it will become one of the best items in the game.

http://inlinethumb32.webshots.com/46111/2870900940051410291S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2870900940051410291hZizdO)

[rest]

Hmm. Interesting. Too bad the crit range is so low on staves. I guess if you can get crippling strike to go off enough they'll be auto crit... but by that time you'll be dealing SA damage that will do more than the puncturing. If it had been enfeebling, I would be a much happier camper. Although I guess puncturing is more thematically appropriate.

C'est la vie.

[drac317]

I upgraded my bleed version last night..

You beat me to posting it.

Here you go everyone... acrobats get puncturing.

We really need to explore what the impact goes to.. becuase if its 5% weighted... it will become one of the best items in the game.

http://inlinethumb32.webshots.com/46111/2870900940051410291S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2870900940051410291hZizdO)

posted elsewhere that its maiming

[The_Phenx]

posted elsewhere that its maiming

? explain further?

[The_Phenx]

Hmm. Interesting. Too bad the crit range is so low on staves. I guess if you can get crippling strike to go off enough they'll be auto crit... but by that time you'll be dealing SA damage that will do more than the puncturing. If it had been enfeebling, I would be a much happier camper. Although I guess puncturing is more thematically appropriate.

C'est la vie.

Hell wounding would have been outstanding and it would have stayed on theme... but so far all the upgrades have been burst type effects.

[drac317]

? explain further?

A_D posted in another thread that impact unlocks maiming

[sly_1]

If your looking for max dps twf kopesh rouge with a decent ac your much better off with a 19/1 rouge monk kinda split doing a twf assassin III.

Why not 18 rogue/1 monk/1 fighter for a build like that? trading 1d6 sneak for 1 feat seems fair, no?

Or even 1 barb lvl for the run speed bump?

[The_Phenx]

Why not 18 rogue/1 monk/1 fighter for a build like that? trading 1d6 sneak for 1 feat seems fair, no?

Or even 1 barb lvl for the run speed bump?

Actually making a 19/1 barb rouge assassin III dw kukuri's at the moment... went barb for the run speed boost while sneaking... access to martial weapons... barb toughness... barb dr....and the single rage.

I stayed 19/1 so I could get the last tier of S/A damage.

Hes pretty cool but being dex based takes a lot of getting used to.

He cant stand on his own like preying can, doesn't have the AC or base damage...but does a metric ton of dps when played like a rouge.

[The_Phenx]

SO after all the pages of stating that Assasin III is the way to go....

I still like Preying better... more base damage.. way higher ac... (so far)

I know the assasin is more S/A since he is twf....but it just doesn't suit my run in and beat everything to death playstyle. Constatly having to manage your aggro is meh.

[Dartwick]

only 12 or 13 rogue ftw

[Arkat]

only 12 or 13 rogue ftw

How incredibly helpful.

:rolleyes:

[t0r012]

Well looks like I am going to restart my Big F'in sticker since i piked up the 32 point build.

With a 28 pointer with no twink I found this build worked well till lvl 8 or 9 then you find yourself spread just a bit thin. just not quite enough in everything. I unlocked drow and thought I'd give that a shot as the stats are all in the right places but before I got started I broke down on the 32 point buy.

[Dartwick]

How incredibly helpful.

:rolleyes:

Hey I think it should be mentioned every now and then in this mega thread that 18 rogue isnt an optimal staff build its a place holder for things to come(not that theres anything wrong with that.)

The comparison between 18 rogue assassin and 18 rogue acrobat is a bit of a false dichotomy.

I repeatedly see people reference BFS as a the best plan for a staff acrobat and it really isnt in the currnt game.

[Arkat]

Hey I think it should be mentioned every now and then in this mega thread that 18 rogue isnt an optimal staff build its a place holder for things to come(not that theres anything wrong with that.)

The comparison between 18 rogue assassin and 18 rogue acrobat is a bit of a false dichotomy.

I repeatedly see people reference BFS as a the best plan for a staff acrobat and it really isnt in the currnt game.

Well that's a perfectly legitimate viewpoint as long as you care to at least present an alternative.

Please suggest something to the OP that would accomplish his goals better. Don't just come into his thread in a drive-by fashion and blurt out "12 or 13 lvl Rog ftw."

Try to actually participate in and add to the discussion please! :)

[The_Phenx]

Technically he is correct...

At this point in time until we see the launch of the acrobat III Prestige enhancement there are several other viable builds. I am not sure that I would call any of them better...or worth having to TR later if things change.

17/3 rouge monk... grants fists of light... which is very nice to have.

13 rouge 6 monk 1 fighter.. grants 2nd level air stance for 2.5% faster swing speed but a loss of 2d6 S/A damage per hit. I believe you gain an extra feat too. Best should be made as a warforged for the tactial mesh that the fighter level brings in.

This has however been discussed multiple times in this giant long thread.

[The_Phenx]

The comparison between 18 rogue assassin and 18 rogue acrobat is a bit of a false dichotomy.

Ya it wasn't meant to compare... two totally different ideas.

[The_Phenx]

Well looks like I am going to restart my Big F'in sticker since i piked up the 32 point build.

With a 28 pointer with no twink I found this build worked well till lvl 8 or 9 then you find yourself spread just a bit thin. just not quite enough in everything. I unlocked drow and thought I'd give that a shot as the stats are all in the right places but before I got started I broke down on the 32 point buy.

lol... sad to know 28 points just doesnt hold up... and drow isnt really the best synergy.

It would however be interesting to True Res him into a 34 or 36 point toon and roll with max str to start :).

[Propane]

1st off - love the post and I am enjoying the build - lv 13 now :)

Quick question - has anyone tried using a Jorgundal's Collar - (Necklace) Melee Alacrity 10% (White Dragon Chest) ?

Does this stack?

Thanks!

[drac317]

1st off - love the post and I am enjoying the build - lv 13 now :)

Quick question - has anyone tried using a Jorgundal's Collar - (Necklace) Melee Alacrity 10% (White Dragon Chest) ?

Does this stack?

Thanks!
with everything but haste and part of wind stance

[The_Phenx]

1st off - love the post and I am enjoying the build - lv 13 now :)

Quick question - has anyone tried using a Jorgundal's Collar - (Necklace) Melee Alacrity 10% (White Dragon Chest) ?

Does this stack?

Thanks!

Glad your having fun.

Sadly It doesn't since it is an enchantment bonus, so is haste. And you can only have 1 type of each bonus at any given time. It is however useful item to have later on if you have one, and I wouldn't get rid of it.

Once you get up to 18+ and get into tower of despair runs, haste will not work with the boots of anchoring on, however Jorgundals Collar will, so its the best way to get a lil faster in that situation. (+2.5% swing speed)

[BigBozzy]

Heya.. Been playing for a bit now mainly a pure monk at the moment and love it.. but was looking at starting something fun with a friend of mine...i know this is the big fn stikck build but seemed the place to ask.. maybe ti was already answered in the 34 or so pages i didnt read them all and if so im sorry..but could this build be slightly modified for the twf branch.. maybe using kamas with weapon finess..more dex + wis less str..or would it be better to start a new build direction maybe with 2 monk some rogue and some fighter or ranger.... any thoughts ?

[The_Phenx]

Heya.. Been playing for a bit now mainly a pure monk at the moment and love it.. but was looking at starting something fun with a friend of mine...i know this is the big fn stikck build but seemed the place to ask.. maybe ti was already answered in the 34 or so pages i didnt read them all and if so im sorry..but could this build be slightly modified for the twf branch.. maybe using kamas with weapon finess..more dex + wis less str..or would it be better to start a new build direction maybe with 2 monk some rogue and some fighter or ranger.... any thoughts ?


Answered in pm...

[Frosttbite]

When I'm at the character creator screen for inputting the skill base numbers they do not match
the numbers that are listed here. what am I doing wrong. And yes I have a 32 point build.

Thank you

[Quazzy]

I've been playing this build and it's been truly a ton of fun, thanks so much for putting it together :D

I have a question about the Breeze (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Unlimited/Items/Weapons/Breeze.jpg) staff. It was mentioned earlier in the thread. I have a strange desire to build a max dex halfling using it. How does this staff stack up to the Mineral II and Radiance II combo? Does the lack of DR penetration cripple it at higher levels?

[The_Phenx]

MMM would it cripple it.. Pretty much

My fear.. is that its essentially useless against anything but trash mobs.

And even then its just good for tripping them... it doesn't allow for auto sneak attacks/crits in any fashion.

That being said.. it would prolly be good for crowd control... just don't expect to do a lot of damage with it.

And if you make a dex based staff user... that +to hit and damage will ONLY work with that staff... all other staffs are str based. So you would essentially have bleh with any other staff in the game.

I think this was the devs answer to some requests for a finesable staff.

I am however going ot grab one on preying to play with.. just as another toy in the chest.

[8520927]

Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+0.5)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Meditation
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose I
Enhancement: Void Strike
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I

Why do you get Void strike if the attacks from the stances you chose do; A. 1d6 Lightning Damage, and B.) Your attacks deal an additional 4 damage. ?

[The_Phenx]

Why do you get Void strike if the attacks from the stances you chose do; A. 1d6 Lightning Damage, and B.) Your attacks deal an additional 4 damage. ?

Pretty easy explanation here.

The strike while granted when you take a stance are not tied to being in that stance.

So for example I can be in air stance and use void strike or sundering earth.

These strikes are tied to a short timer. If I click one I can make it to the next two just as the timer is running out and keep rolling thru them.

So I have void strike and sundering earth to do 1d4 and +4 damage each hit to constructs (mainly shroud portals) and I use the lightning as well in that chain against elementals undead etc... anything that is unaffected by sneak attack damage.

Then it really shines during long drawn out boss battles at later levels.

I do not (at higher levels) bother with them vs. normal mobs... they die too quickly to really bother.

And more specifically... void strike is force damage... when running shantokoor its a good way to damage the end boss.

[budwise09]

I just rolled a toon with this build yesterday, and I outkilled the rogue, the TWF ranger, and the monk, by a considerable margin in the Delera's chain. And they were all two levels higher than me (I was level 4). The haste boost + air stance is just sick! Can't wait to get the Acrobat pre. :D

[The_Phenx]

Yeah... this set up rocks vs skeles... you use blunt weapons, and swing faster.

Once you get back to fighting fleshies, deception, radiance etc are your friend :)

[z0mbyjr]

Heh, yeah...

I'm trying to imagine this as a WF. (Yes, I know halflings are uber)
More PA damage, More glancing blows, and less of a STR Penalty, and immunities. (But less AC and WIS).

Of course, you miss out on the amazing goodness that is the halfling... and the satisfaction of wielding a weapon that is bigger than you.

Also, with the theme of this build... Is Acrobat III out yet? If not, I have a few questions.
Do you think it'd be better for this to be a:
A) 18/2 (Original intent)
B) 13 Rog/6 Rgr/1 Mnk

Would the 10% Attack speed bonus benefit from Tempest also?

[t0r012]

Heh, yeah...

I'm trying to imagine this as a WF. (Yes, I know halflings are uber)
More PA damage, More glancing blows, and less of a STR Penalty, and immunities. (But less AC and WIS).

Of course, you miss out on the amazing goodness that is the halfling... and the satisfaction of wielding a weapon that is bigger than you.

Also, with the theme of this build... Is Acrobat III out yet? If not, I have a few questions.
Do you think it'd be better for this to be a:
A) 18/2 (Original intent)
B) 13 Rog/6 Rgr/1 Mnk

Would the 10% Attack speed bonus benefit from Tempest also?


from tempest I in the compend
Your training has greatly improved your ability to fight with two weapons at once, granting a 10% competence bonus to dual wield attack speed
dual wield

i'd go 8 monk instead to get wholeness of body and wind stance 2 plus another wis enhancement and the bonus ac at 5.

for a 6 splash in kensai with 1/4 staff mastery would be my second choice.

[Arkat]

Also, with the theme of this build... Is Acrobat III out yet?

Nope, unfortunately.




If not, I have a few questions.
Do you think it'd be better for this to be a:
A) 18/2 (Original intent)
B) 13 Rog/6 Rgr/1 Mnk


Actually I think the concensus choice is between 18Rog/2Monk or 13 Rog/7Monk. At least one person has even suggested 19Rog/1Monk but it's not a popular choice.


Would the 10% Attack speed bonus benefit from Tempest also?

No. Tempest stuff applies ONLY when wielding TWO weapons...not a two-handed weapon.

[t0r012]

yeah 13 /7 works as better dunno why i was thinking 8, other than another boost to unarmed.

with 13 you get the extra 1d6 sneak.

[Arkat]

with 13 you get the extra 1d6 sneak.

And another Rogue feat like Improved Evasion if you took Crippling Strike at 10th level Rogue.

[Divyne]

nm)

[The_Phenx]

I'm trying to imagine this as a WF. (Yes, I know halflings are uber)
More PA damage, More glancing blows, and less of a STR Penalty, and immunities. (But less AC and WIS).


What they said for the rest...

WF are fine, just a different flavor.

The str penalty is meaningless... since halflings get +1th +1damage

Wf get the PA improvements btu those might make it a bit tough to hit.

The trade off is really no access to halfling guile, or saves for access to wf glancing blow enhancements....

So more direct damage instgead of more ac + saves... just depends on how you wanna do it.

[Lleren]

My only problem with the 13/7 split is that you end up getting some abilities so late in levels.

As an 18/2 split I'll have acrobat 2 goodness at level 14.

Though I may end up making one anyway, and deal with waiting for improved evasion at 16

[The_Phenx]

Ya it spaces it out.. and its no longer as big a deal now that we can reincarnate.

If Acrobat III rocks out you can fix your build.

[Dartwick]

The consensus of people trying to make an effective acrobat currently is not 18+ rogue.
12-13rogue and 6-7 monk with maybe a level of fighter is the consensus. 18 rogue is a place holder.

Myself I have 12 rogue 6 fighter and 2 monk and like it. My glancing blows are great. I never get knocked down I do good face to face damage and of course more if I can sneak attack. I used my eaxtra feats on saves and AC(dodge and CE) so Im fairly tough even with my modest gear. And Im still a good trap monkey.
But the down side is I didnt get acrobat 2 till level 20.

I may TC and see what 6 monk is like. Losing the attack bonus though might be painful on high end stuff. I would drop CE though it does help me get a nice AC but the decreased damage sucks I would rather just keep PA on unless i need the better attack bonus.

[Lleren]

Ya it spaces it out.. and its no longer as big a deal now that we can reincarnate.

If Acrobat III rocks out you can fix your build.

I'm wondering how hard +3 and +1 reincarnate stones will be to get.

I could take another 2 monk levels on the one I'm building now and only need a +3 reincarnate stone to get to a 13/7 build when I hit 20, hmm.

[The_Phenx]

The consensus of people trying to make an effective acrobat currently is not 18+ rogue.
12-13rogue and 6-7 monk with maybe a level of fighter is the consensus. 18 rogue is a place holder.

Myself I have 12 rogue 6 fighter and 2 monk and like it. My glancing blows are great. I never get knocked down I do good face to face damage and of course more if I can sneak attack. I used my eaxtra feats on saves and AC(dodge and CE) so Im fairly tough even with my modest gear. And Im still a good trap monkey.
But the down side is I didnt get acrobat 2 till level 20.

I may TC and see what 6 monk is like. Losing the attack bonus though might be painful on high end stuff. I would drop CE though it does help me get a nice AC but the decreased damage sucks I would rather just keep PA on unless i need the better attack bonus.

Couple tips.

DP Clickies... love them. They are only 1;04 sec long but thats more than enough for most fights. They grant full BAB and +3 damage to all your glancing blows.

Keep CE its way too useful.

If you don't have, make a raidance staff... its just that good.

[The_Phenx]

I'm wondering how hard +3 and +1 reincarnate stones will be to get.

I could take another 2 monk levels on the one I'm building now and only need a +3 reincarnate stone to get to a 13/7 build when I hit 20, hmm.

Honestly The 13/6/1 13/7 split are both strong. I am not sure they are that much better, they have some advantages and some disadvantages.

18/2 works fantastically for the moment, even if it is just a placeholder. If I'm wrong at that point I'm going to do a +1 and go 17/3 just to pick up fists of light, Since I wont loose S/A.

Of course we do not know the synergies of the monk prestige classes yet either. Just being patient and gathering gear and tomes in case.

[Dartwick]

FoL is maybe the most attractive part of switching from 6 fighter to 6 monk. The small atttack spead increase and non-CE AC increase would be the other reasons but I dont think they alone are better than Kensai 1.

[D'rin]

FoL is maybe the most attractive part of switching from 6 fighter to 6 monk. The small atttack spead increase and non-CE AC increase would be the other reasons but I dont think they alone are better than Kensai 1.

It wouldn't be a switch from fighter 6 to monk 6. It would be from fighter 6 to monk 7. At that point you get wind stance 7 which I believe gives a +5% speed increase with haste. That is much better on a build that relies on sneak attacks. Your bab with quarter staff would be the same as adding fighter levels since it is a centered weapon.

[CSFurious]

your build assumes that acrobat 3 @ rogue level 18 will be no good

you could be right or be making a very poor build choice


The consensus of people trying to make an effective acrobat currently is not 18+ rogue.
12-13rogue and 6-7 monk with maybe a level of fighter is the consensus. 18 rogue is a place holder.

Myself I have 12 rogue 6 fighter and 2 monk and like it. My glancing blows are great. I never get knocked down I do good face to face damage and of course more if I can sneak attack. I used my eaxtra feats on saves and AC(dodge and CE) so Im fairly tough even with my modest gear. And Im still a good trap monkey.
But the down side is I didnt get acrobat 2 till level 20.

I may TC and see what 6 monk is like. Losing the attack bonus though might be painful on high end stuff. I would drop CE though it does help me get a nice AC but the decreased damage sucks I would rather just keep PA on unless i need the better attack bonus.

[D'rin]

Most of us with this build are going 18/2 or 19/1 just in case acro 3 is good. If not then a re-roll or TR will be needed to correct the damage of mis information

[Dartwick]

your build assumes that acrobat 3 @ rogue level 18 will be no good

you could be right or be making a very poor build choice


Actually my build assumes nothing. Its built to work well and does.

[Dartwick]

It wouldn't be a switch from fighter 6 to monk 6. It would be from fighter 6 to monk 7. At that point you get wind stance 7 which I believe gives a +5% speed increase with haste. That is much better on a build that relies on sneak attacks. Your bab with quarter staff would be the same as adding fighter levels since it is a centered weapon.

Ummm the second wind stance comes at 6. Thats whole reason for going to 6.

And the increase in attack bonus Im referring to is the kensai line. I thought that was obvious maybe I should have explained.

[Arkat]

Most of us with this build are going 18/2 or 19/1 just in case acro 3 is good. If not then a re-roll or TR will be needed to correct the damage of mis information

TR will NOT be needed.

A couple Greater Reincarnation +3s will be all that's needed to correct an 18Rogue/2Monk build to a 13Rogue/7Monk Build.

[Arkat]

Ummm the second wind stance comes at 6. Thats whole reason for going to 6.


Perhaps what D'rin meant to say was by taking that 7th lvl of Monk, you get access to Wholeness of Body which I find to be invaluable when soloing especially in the Subterrane.

[Dartwick]

Perhaps what D'rin meant to say was by taking that 7th lvl of Monk, you get access to Wholeness of Body which I find to be invaluable when soloing especially in the Subterrane.

Im certain he didnt mean to say that(being that its a completely different point.)
But it does sound like a good reason, although I think I would rather have the extra feat and access to the first fighter enhancements.

[8520927]

I had a couple quick questions.
first off, If i were to substitute Halfling Guile, cunning, dex for Warforged THF Aptitude, Power Attack, and CON (making up for the dex in the start build) Would my base damage be better all around? I know its kinda a stupid question- just a thought though.

And would it ruin the build to go 17 rogue/3monk instead of 18/2? this way i can pick up a Light or Darkness attack?

Thanks for the information in advance.

[The_Phenx]

I had a couple quick questions.
first off, If i were to substitute Halfling Guile, cunning, dex for Warforged THF Aptitude, Power Attack, and CON (making up for the dex in the start build) Would my base damage be better all around? I know its kinda a stupid question- just a thought though.

And would it ruin the build to go 17 rogue/3monk instead of 18/2? this way i can pick up a Light or Darkness attack?

Thanks for the information in advance.

Yes that works with the warforged...the problem with WF power attack is your to hit may drop too low to be really usable.

Your base damage would be higher, and your glancing blows would occur with more regularity, but you miss on some sneak attack damage, and some saves and ac.

Little more DIRECT dps little less survivability. The guile is more dps when landing S/A. Never run the numbers, but its fairly close.

Currently max AC I have seen is 81... Still waiting on my chattering ring, sadly 58 titans and nothing...You would be looking at a minimum of 2 ac less, posibly more depending on how you design him.

[8520927]

Quick Question;
I have been playing this build and i'm now level 14. I have Thief-Acrobat II and I am curious if it would be more beneficial to spend my last 6 levels into Fighter getting Kensei I and Kensei Signature Weapon - Quarterstaff. Not only that but we would have more feat opportunities. Is there something major im missing out on at 18th rogue? If so please help me weigh the differences. (Also I dropped the +1 all skills feat at level 18 for Stunning Blow, and i could get Fighter Strategy - Stunning Blow II If i were to go 12rogue/6fighter/2monk.

Let me know please! :]

[Dartwick]

Youre choosing between all around damage and attack bonuse with kensai one plus the extra feats or even more sneak attack damage with 18 rogue and the hope that a valuable acrobat 3 will be added soon.

No one can make the choice for you. If you just read through the last few pages of the thread youll see both discussed.

[PolarisNC]

I admit I skipped about 34 pages of posts, so someone probably beat me to it, but...

A +1 Dex tome at 1 and a +2 tome at 4? If you've got nothing better to do with your plat I could take some of it off your hands ;-)

[Sillk]

I admit I skipped about 34 pages of posts, so someone probably beat me to it, but...

A +1 Dex tome at 1 and a +2 tome at 4? If you've got nothing better to do with your plat I could take some of it off your hands ;-)

A lot of us had pulled these by running high end content for the past year or so.

You can get them in the DDO store as well. Altho you can't use a +2 tome until level 7 now.

[The_Phenx]

I admit I skipped about 34 pages of posts, so someone probably beat me to it, but...

A +1 Dex tome at 1 and a +2 tome at 4? If you've got nothing better to do with your plat I could take some of it off your hands ;-)

LOL yep.. No worries on the 34 pages... I wish I could take a weed wacker to them.

I have currently 14 +2 tomes rotting in my bank, waiting for druids and psionics :).

[The_Phenx]

Looks like we will be getting a boon from the dev's

Changes to monks include receipt of all the 1st tier stances for free!

SO we will have free access to air/fire/earth/water stances and all their strikes + finishers.

WOOT!

[Mangloid]

Quick Question;
I have been playing this build and i'm now level 14. I have Thief-Acrobat II and I am curious if it would be more beneficial to spend my last 6 levels into Fighter getting Kensei I and Kensei Signature Weapon - Quarterstaff. Not only that but we would have more feat opportunities. Is there something major im missing out on at 18th rogue? If so please help me weigh the differences. (Also I dropped the +1 all skills feat at level 18 for Stunning Blow, and i could get Fighter Strategy - Stunning Blow II If i were to go 12rogue/6fighter/2monk.

Let me know please! :]

I asked a similar question to a guild member of mine and he pointed out "you don't need the feats. 24 hp don't mean much the 1 str and the kenasi 1 aps give you an extra 2 damage per swing in total. you cannot make up for the 3d6 you lose in any way . 3d6 = 10.5 damage per swing"

[The_Phenx]

Quick Question;
I have been playing this build and i'm now level 14. I have Thief-Acrobat II and I am curious if it would be more beneficial to spend my last 6 levels into Fighter getting Kensei I and Kensei Signature Weapon - Quarterstaff. Not only that but we would have more feat opportunities. Is there something major im missing out on at 18th rogue? If so please help me weigh the differences. (Also I dropped the +1 all skills feat at level 18 for Stunning Blow, and i could get Fighter Strategy - Stunning Blow II If i were to go 12rogue/6fighter/2monk.

Let me know please! :]

Agreed with above. If you are looking at making a tactics version I would recommend warforged anyway.

[hu-flung-pu]

My Tactics quarterstaff user was inspired by this build.

And when it comes to damage output, you'd be surprised how much damage a 1d6x2 weapon does in a 180 degree arc.

I'm looking forward to using rahl's might!

[The_Phenx]

Chuckle. Especially when each hit has 62 pts of sneak attack damage attached to it.

Its like your a small whirling AOE spell.

[hu-flung-pu]

I can only imagine what that backstab damage racks up!

I'm going 8 monk, 12 fighter on my build. Going for all the stunning blow and trip and warforged tactics, swinging weighted, vertigo, and stat damaging staffs so far.

Because the staff swings so fast, and it has such a wide arc and triggers so many glancing blows (which even at level 9 I'm currently at) I'm full on attacking everything in my wake it seems.

And since I'm in firestance I'm literally generating so much ki, I can typically keep up aligning the heavens and walk of the clouds up on a constant basis with the occasional healing ki.

Very fun build! The backstab and rogue skills would only make it that much better!

[The_Phenx]

also missing out on the 15% boost to swing speed from acrobat sadly :(...but sounds fun nonetheless

[hu-flung-pu]

I figured with 7 fighter attack speed boosts from Kensai 2, and 10% in storm stance adept, I'd be alright on attack speed.

What I lack in back stab damage, I make up for with near impossible to miss stuns and trips.

Like I said, your build inspired this one I just made some modifications to it that fit my play style better.

[The_Phenx]

Aye aye.

I play mine like a barbarian.

The other + side of rouges is they get the clicky attack speed boosts which I have tier IV for.. so +30% there too.

If you really like the tactics you should look into acquiring breeze...

[Arlathen]

* this post contained abominable information best struck from the thread :D*

[Arlathen]

* this post contained abominable information best struck from the thread :D*

[The_Phenx]

I had attempted a build along these lines.

It was designed to be Raiden.

The problems I ran into was the lack of HP and the BAB loss became more than I could deal with.

My solutions.

Shroud haste clickies... 1:36 each

Shroud Displacement clickies ... 1:36 each

Shield wands Lvl 10 ... 10 Min each

Blur Wands... Stoneskin Wands...

The shroud clickies are only tier 2 so are cheap and easy to make.

Invisibility clicky from Amarath quests. Last a LONG time.

But that being said... gluck and lemme knwo how it all works out.

Here was my "attempt" lol...

[Arlathen]

First, I changed around my build slightly, decided that long term Rogue 13 would be better for the build rather than Monk 3. Also listed a full BAB Progression by level, and how to fit in all the feats I've selected.


I had attempted a build along these lines.

The problems I ran into was the lack of HP and the BAB loss became more than I could deal with.

My solutions:
Shroud Haste clickies... 1:36 each
Shroud Displacement clickies ... 1:36 each
Shield wands Lvl 10 ... 10 Min each
Blur Wands...
Stoneskin Wands...

The shroud clickies are only tier 2 so are cheap and easy to make.
Invisibility clicky from Amarath quests. Last a LONG time.
But that being said... gluck and lemme knwo how it all works out.
Here was my "attempt" lol...

Interesting. My viewpoint:

You know, I hate relying on clickies for a build, even having to use Divine Power is annoying. Theres so much to already 'Click' on this build that maintaining the extra clickies is a right royal pain and takes away the fun from the build.

Also, thats still an awful lot of Greensteel (even just for Tier 2 items )to have enough of those clickies to last between shrines. A single Greensteel item gives me a total of over 700SP to cast my personal buffs without relying on the clickies.

When I'm mixing it up, I just want to lay down with the Staff, hit my Stun and my Trip and my Haste boost as needed and enjoy the damage :D

Anyways, I'm building this guy - Staffard on Thelanis - look me up if your that way.

[Dartwick]

It seems to me your gimping a melee character so you dont have to use wands or depend on other people for what are fairly standard buffs.

I guess that cool depending on your goals, but it seems limiting.

[Arlathen]

It seems to me your gimping a melee character so you dont have to use wands or depend on other people for what are fairly standard buffs.

I guess that cool depending on your goals, but it seems limiting.

Could you specify a little.. ?

[Dartwick]

Well youre a melee toon - we agree on this I think.

Those 5 levels of caster take away from your melee potential in every way and only give you some easily attained buffs in return.

Using those 5 levels to get more rogue or 6 monk or 6 fighter will make you a better combatant. More bab, more hit points more useful enhancements and maybe more feats or else more rogue abilities.

Now if your attempting a cross over character for RP or simply fun reasons I in no means want to discourage that. But if your doing it thinking you can make a better staff acrobat I feel your going down a poor path.

[The_Phenx]

Seems fairly straitforward.

Sadly I agree.

I keep the clickies around just for solo play.

I realize my link disappeared... but here it is again... my take on a caster monk flavor build.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=191878

[The_Phenx]

Small update.

Made one hell of a stick. +5 Maladriot of Bonebreaking W/Icy burst & force crit.

Beholders beware.

And sadly 60th Titan run and still no chattering ring :(

[Ishaka]

Where do you get the Radiance II Quarterstaff from?

[drac317]

Where do you get the Radiance II Quarterstaff from?
shroud, lots and lots of shrouds.
gl

[The_Phenx]

Where do you get the Radiance II Quarterstaff from?

Shroud crafting in the Vale...

Takes about 15 - 20 shrouds to get the parts to make it, or just lots of plat.

In lieu of that... your next best option is a Rahls Might from mindsunder... Lotsa damage and has deception for granting auto SA damage, but lacks the ability to bypass damage reduction against evil outsiders.

[drac317]

Shroud crafting in the Vale...

Takes about 15 - 20 shrouds to get the parts to make it, or just lots of plat.

In lieu of that... your next best option is a Rahls Might from mindsunder... Lotsa damage and has deception for granting auto SA damage, but lacks the ability to bypass damage reduction against evil outsiders.
its been nice having mine back at lvl12 on my tr.
giants beware,im gonna hit ya in the kneecap and youll go blind

[The_Phenx]

its been nice having mine back at lvl12 on my tr.
giants beware,im gonna hit ya in the kneecap and youll go blind

OOO nice.. 34 pointer? what did you add to?

[drac317]

OOO nice.. 34 pointer? what did you add to?
at work atm but if remember right

str16
dex16
con14
int14
wis10
cha8



ill check when i get home and edit in corrections and where hes sitting now

edit: these are the correct starting stats, did take the pastlife feat on him, the sneak att clickie is nice in a pinch.

[The_Phenx]

Neat...Im to far gone to take that plunge...

[drac317]

Neat...Im to far gone to take that plunge...
it does suck but having ur gear waitin on ya helps,especially with a lot of it being lower lvl then when u normally would get it the first time around.

but that being said i probally wont do it again

[Ultrazen]

This build is a ton of fun :) I have a few questions though, as I am obviously missing something.

Given that the breaks for sneak attack are at 17 or 19, why not one more level of monk? You pick up some nice stuff at 3 monk, and I can't figure out what 1 more level of rogue is giving you that outweighs that? Or if not monk, maybe another early splash of something else, barb? Fighter for another feat?

What's 18 rogue get you that 17 wouldn't?

[budwise09]

This build is a ton of fun :) I have a few questions though, as I am obviously missing something.

Given that the breaks for sneak attack are at 17 or 19, why not one more level of monk? You pick up some nice stuff at 3 monk, and I can't figure out what 1 more level of rogue is giving you that outweighs that? Or if not monk, maybe another early splash of something else, barb? Fighter for another feat?

What's 18 rogue get you that 17 wouldn't?

I think rogue 18 is in anticipation of Acrobat III, which should have rogue 18 as requirement.

[Ultrazen]

I think rogue 18 is in anticipation of Acrobat III, which should have rogue 18 as requirement.

Ah that makes sense, thanks a ton, I knew there was something I was missing lol.

[sephiroth1084]

I think rogue 18 is in anticipation of Acrobat III, which should have rogue 18 as requirement.
If I start leveling my version of this again, I will probably take at least 3 monk and use Lesser Reincarnate +1,2 or 3 to get Acrobat 3 if it's worth while.

[The_Phenx]

Ah that makes sense, thanks a ton, I knew there was something I was missing lol.

Ya he was designed for acrobat III... before reincarnation was an option... I myself am going to swap a +1 to take 3 levels of monk, until acrobat III comes out and we see if its worthwile. Which I pray it will be...quarterstaves actually get a decent amount of love on this game...

Eladrin... Vorpal bladed staff???? (Think Rahls Might)

Fists of light here I come....

[Ultrazen]

Ya he was designed for acrobat III... before reincarnation was an option... I myself am going to swap a +1 to take 3 levels of monk, until acrobat III comes out and we see if its worthwile. Which I pray it will be...quarterstaves actually get a decent amount of love on this game...

Eladrin... Vorpal bladed staff???? (Think Rahls Might)

Fists of light here I come....

Ah awesome, where's the best place to slot that 3rd level of monk in, as I really love this build and am having a ton of fun with it.

[budwise09]

Ya he was designed for acrobat III... before reincarnation was an option... I myself am going to swap a +1 to take 3 levels of monk, until acrobat III comes out and we see if its worthwile. Which I pray it will be...quarterstaves actually get a decent amount of love on this game...

Eladrin... Vorpal bladed staff???? (Think Rahls Might)

Fists of light here I come....
I'm rolling this build up on a different server, but I'm thinking of getting 32 pt halfling monk 6 / rogue 14. What exactly do I gain/lose with this? Thanks! :D

[OldAquarian]

I'm rolling this build up on a different server, but I'm thinking of getting 32 pt halfling monk 6 / rogue 14. What exactly do I gain/lose with this? Thanks! :D

monk 7 / rogue 13 gets you alot more - rogue 14 is not very exciting - rogue 13 gives you 2nd rogue feat and extra SA so dont drop below that

[Dartwick]

Rather than 14 rogue take a 7th level of monk or 1 level of fighter.

[Aganthor]

I'm also interested in knowing how you plan on doing this!!!


Ah awesome, where's the best place to slot that 3rd level of monk in, as I really love this build and am having a ton of fun with it.

[budwise09]

Rather than 14 rogue take a 7th level of monk or 1 level of fighter.
What's the best progression for this 13/7 or 13/6/1 split? Also, will it be advisable to take 1 level or ranger instead to be able to use cure serious wands?

[Dartwick]

All I care is that start with a level of rogue and end with a level of rogue to get optimal skill point distribution.

Why not just raise UMD?

[The_Phenx]

I'm also interested in knowing how you plan on doing this!!!

I am leaning towards... rogue monk rogue monk like before then insert monk for level 16 then rogue -----> 20th That way you get your feats early and can pick up acrobat II & crippling strike at 14th & 15th still.

There are no downsides at all to doing +1 right now you keep all the rogue feats and s/a damage and, pick up fists of light and the curse of healing... and +1 bab.

Then if times change down the road I will just +1 back to rogue to pick up acrobat III.

I will post a build once I get it layed out, got some values to verify first...